From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 11:04:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA12162 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maildeliver1.tiac.net (maildeliver1.tiac.net [199.0.65.213]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA12155 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from worldmachine.com (worldmachine.com [204.215.133.237]) by maildeliver1.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.7.4) with ESMTP id NAA29737 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:58:00 -0400 Received: (from eric@localhost) by worldmachine.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA19686 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:01:52 -0400 From: "Eric J. Hansen" Message-Id: <199609011801.OAA19686@worldmachine.com> Subject: net.id forged subscriptions To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:01:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone gotten to the bottom of these forged subscription requests for addresses at net.id (various ISP's in India)... they're coming from msu.edu. My Go West Digest mailing list has been getting bombarded with them. Thanks, Eric -- Eric J. Hansen .............................. http://www.worldmachine.com/eric Developer, Worldmachine Technologies ............ mailto:eric@worldmachine.com From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 13:04:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA19422 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA19414 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207.33.130.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [207.33.130.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) with SMTP id NAA11544; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3229EC29.4F60@postmodern.com> Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 13:06:15 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers Subject: Re: net.id forged subscriptions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric J. Hansen wrote: > > Has anyone gotten to the bottom of these forged subscription requests > for addresses at net.id (various ISP's in India)... they're coming from > msu.edu. My Go West Digest mailing list has been getting bombarded with > them. Actually "net.id" is Indonesia, not India (.in). If you look closer at the header, most of them seem to have been injected from dial-up SLIP ports (possibly in Indonesia) on ibm.net, and sent *through* msu.edu. (The most recent one came via "dal.cleaf.com".) I have sent 2 complaints to postmaster@ibm.net and gotten a fancy response with a trouble-ticket number but no human there has actually responded, nor has anyone at msu.edu. I am going to start sending copies to the personal mailboxes of the domain contacts for both sites. I can't imagine that given the message header, the ibm.net people can't figure out who was using a particular SLIP port or dynamic IP address at a particular time, and admonish their customer. Copies of each are below. If IBM does not solve this in a reasonable time I am going to turn up the heat. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com > Received: from pilot02.cl.msu.edu (pilot02.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.12]) by > server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) with ESMTP id > XAA08486 for ; Sat, 31 Aug 1996 > 23:37:10 -0700 (PDT) > From: paratama@idola.net.id > Received: from slip202-135-7-67.jk.id.ibm.net > (slip202-135-7-67.jk.id.ibm.net [202.135.7.67]) by pilot02.cl.msu.edu > (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id CAA117582; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 02:37:03 -0400 > Message-Id: <199609010637.CAA117582@pilot02.cl.msu.edu> > DATE: 01 Sep 96 13:39:39 > TO: majordomo@server.postmodern.com > SUBJECT: subscribe jitr > > subscribe jitr > Received: from dal.cleaf.com (root@dal.cleaf.com [206.136.88.2]) by > server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) with SMTP id XAA08497 > for ; Sat, 31 Aug 1996 > 23:40:51 -0700 (PDT) > From: aal@idola.net.id > Received: from (slip202-135-7-67.jk.id.ibm.net [202.135.7.67]) by > dal.cleaf.com (8.6.13/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA30250 for > ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 01:34:39 -0500 > Message-Id: <199609010634.BAA30250@dal.cleaf.com> > DATE: 01 Sep 96 13:43:01 > TO: majordomo@server.postmodern.com > SUBJECT: subscribe jitr > > subscribe jitr From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 17:27:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA05470 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA05441 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA02605 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA28397 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:57:40 -0600 Message-Id: <199608302157.PAA28397@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Is the lists command legit? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:57:39 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Let me pose a question, and see how list managers feel about this. I'm a > biological oceanographer and don't subscribe to any lists in physical > oceanography, but I have a lot of colleagues in physical oceanography > and often want to contact them for legitimate scientific reasons. Am I > commiting a serious abuse if I look at the subscriber lists in physical > oceanography to see if I can find Email address of my colleagues? It sounds from your example like you're talking about contacting individuals at random simply based on their presence on a particular interest list. If so, yes, I consider that abusive behavior. My presence on a mailing list is an invitation for mail *from that list*, not from anyone else. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 17:30:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA05310 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA04833 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA29484 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA11720; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:36:25 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199608291415.JAA01347@pumpkin.tssi.com> References: <199608290822.DAA19152@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Stephanie da Silva" at Aug 29, 96 03:22:09 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:05:51 -0400 To: nolan@tssi.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: PAML mail Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:15 AM -0400 8/29/1996, Michael Nolan wrote: >I recently had someone on AOL subscribe to my two (closed) lists, post a >note about a list he was trying to start, at best tangentially related to >the subject of my two lists, (two college sports teams) then unsubscribe, >all in the same day. I'd call that hostile activity. Forward a note regarding this behaviour to abuse@aol.com. I won't guarantee that they'll cancel the turkey's account, but they should at least give him a good virtual spanking. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 17:36:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA05534 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA05517 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinet.isdn.wwa.com (chinet.chinet.com [206.158.147.18]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA13677 for ; Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinet.chinet.com (localhost) by chinet.isdn.wwa.com ; 1 SEP 96 00:51:31 CDT Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 00:51:31 -0500 (CDT) From: "Adam H. Kerman" To: list-managers Subject: Headers needed for threading: passing through MLM software Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I subscribe to several mailing lists that are gated to Usenet. As you know, the "References: " header cites the message IDs of earlier articles the poster is quoting. This allows newsreaders like trn to present news articles to the user with true threading. As a courtesy to other Usenet readers, when I post a followup article through the mail-to-news gateway, I manually add "References: " message IDs. However, when I see my article propogated through Usenet or the mailing list, the header has been stripped. trn has no way to properly thread the article. Is this a "feature"? The mailing lists are managed on ListProc, ListServ, and Majordomo. I assume this happens at the MLM level, since I don't see the header on messages from the list. I don't know how the gateway is managed; I suppose it could happen at that level. I have yet to come across a MUA that threads e-mail messages. The "In-Reply-To: " header, where it exists, could be used to thread. My MUA, pine, adds this header to my replies. However, some MLMs delete it. I have noticed that this header is preserved with Majordomo, but is not passed through by ListProc. Is either header mandatory, either within Usenet or mail? Are there mandatory rules on the use of gateways, such that headers needed by one side are supplied by the other? Could an "In-Reply-To: " header be converted to a "References: " header, or vice versa? Is an "In-Reply-To: " header allowed to cite more than one message ID? From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 17:39:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA05542 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA04841 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA29476 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA11753 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:36:39 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:35:14 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: raphael@harborside.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Folks, This guy apparently just junkmailed a large number of Role-Playing Game related mailing lists, including one I maintain. He went so far as to subscribe just long enough to junkmail everyone, and then unsubscribed. I don't presume to tell you how to run your lists, but I'd recommend putting him on your "Persona Non Grata" list and making sure that he doesn't manage to get himself subscribed to any list you maintain, because he's probably not going to learn his lesson any time soon. If you block all mail coming in from/going out to certain domains, you may also want to consider adding this one to your list, or at least notifying the postmaster at this site that you're going to be specifically looking for problems coming out of their site and will take swift and decisive action if you notice any. -Brad --- begin forwarded text Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:49:38 -0800 To: palladium-frpg@skuld.gweep.net From: raphael@harborside.com (James West) Subject: The EMRoP needs YOU! Precedence: bulk Hi folks, I've created a service called the E-Mail Role-Playing (EMRoP) Network that provides links to RPG sites and most importantly has a growing group of GMs running PBEM games through it. As soon as I get more GMs and players it'll be real cool, but right now I only have a handful of both. So, I'm looking for people who want to either play or dedicate some time to running a game or two through my online service. If you're interested, please let me know and if you know anyone that might be, please give them my e-mail address and ask them to e-mail me. Thanks again. James the Charmer (www.harborside.com/home/r/raphael) --- end forwarded text -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 17:54:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA09475 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thyme (thyme.finesse.com [140.174.171.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA09436 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by thyme (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA11660; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:53:50 -0700 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:53:50 -0700 From: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris) Message-Id: <199609020053.RAA11660@thyme> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Sendmail X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi I'm not a sendmail professional with umpteen years of experience under my belt. However, I would like to gracefully refuse email from particular parties and/or domains. I use standard sendmail that comes with Solaris. Can anyone point me to a good resource to learn about this? Thanks Mary Morris From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 17:58:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA09631 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eskimo.com (mail.eskimo.com [204.122.16.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA09609 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA19395 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:49:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Berg Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.5) id RAA00181; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609020049.RAA00181@eskimo.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: raphael@harborside.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I run two RPG-related lists (one for game turns, one for discussion) for a PBEM group, similar to that EMRoP thing he junkmailed about. He was *very* briefly affiliated with the group I run the lists for (PBEM Factory), but we kicked him out after he obtained our subscriber list under false pretenses, then used it for advertising (something wholly against our policies). I have to agree with Brad Knowles, this guy bears watching. From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 20:09:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA17846 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunspot.tiac.net (sunspot.tiac.net [199.0.65.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA17821 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stanr@localhost) by sunspot.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.6.6.Beta9) id WAA22822; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:54:24 -0400 From: Stan Ryckman Message-Id: <199609020254.WAA22822@sunspot.tiac.net> Subject: Re: Sendmail To: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:54:24 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609020053.RAA11660@thyme> from "Mary Morris" at Sep 1, 96 05:53:50 pm Organization: Amber & Sneakers Fan Club X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Hi > > I'm not a sendmail professional with umpteen years of experience > under my belt. However, I would like to gracefully refuse > email from particular parties and/or domains. I use standard > sendmail that comes with Solaris. > > Can anyone point me to a good resource to learn about this? Not clear from your post whether you want to do this from your account or at a system level. Check out procmail. Even if sendmail delivers your mail, you can have it forwarded through procmail, which will give you incredible numbers of options. I use it to do very complicated mail sorting here. If you're a system administrator, then you could consider running procmail *instead* of sendmail; it can do that as well. Hope that helps, Stan. From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 23:24:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA26861 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.interramp.com (smtp1.interramp.com [38.8.45.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA26815 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [38.11.195.58] by smtp1.interramp.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1.3-PSI-irsmtp) id CAA24166; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 02:12:16 -0400 X-Sender: us014319@pop3.interramp.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:13:01 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Mark E. Taylor" Subject: ==Solve your Financial Problems== - $$$.zip (0/1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone gotten any mail from this person? This person has sent mail to me, the NFIC, and to my two mailing lists which are closed. He is bombarding my lists which fortunately reject them but this abuse is quite intolerable. Does anyone have any suggestions about how to handle this type of abuse? Note: This guy was responding to a challenge of a chain letter scheme I posted in a newsgroup. He apparently also sent copies to the National Fraud Information Center by accident who will no doubt forward them to the USPS! Regards, Mark Taylor >Return-Path: >Received: from evansville.net by interramp.com >(8.6.12/SMI-4.1.3-PSI-pop-local) > id XAA25215; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:35:42 -0400 >Received: from world.evansville.net by world.evansville.net with smtp > (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0uxPnV-000hxQC; Sun, 1 Sep 96 22:35 CDT >Path: >info.evansville.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pip >e >x.net!pipex!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!new >s >feed.direct.ca!news >From: winstone@gaia.com (AlbinoCow) >Newsgroups: >alt.computer.workshop.live,alt.conference-ctr,alt.config,alt.consciousness,alt. >c >onsciousness.4th-way,alt.consciousness.mysticism,alt.consciousness.near-death-e >x >p,alt.conspira,alt.conspiracy,alt.conspiracy.abe-lincoln,alt.conspiracy.area51, >a >lt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy.netcom,alt.consumers.experiences,alt.consumers >. >free-stuff,alt.control-theory,alt.cooking-chat,alt.cooking-chien,alt.corel.grap >h >ics,alt.cosuard >Subject: ==Solve your Financial Problems== - $$$.zip (0/1) >Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 14:36:57 GMT >Organization: American On Line >Lines: 28 >Message-ID: <50dbd8$59@orb.direct.ca> >NNTP-Posting-Host: van-as-06c03.direct.ca >X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99.82 >Xref: info.evansville.net alt.computer.workshop.live:363 >alt.conference-ctr:333 alt.config:61548 alt.consciousness:22342 >alt.consciousness.4th-way:7314 alt.consciousness.mysticism:6796 >alt.consciousness.near-death-exp:3434 alt.conspiracy:138352 >alt.conspiracy.abe-lincoln:238 alt.conspiracy.area51:13529 >alt.conspiracy.jfk:47415 alt.conspiracy.netcom:253 >alt.consumers.experiences:5836 alt.consumers.free-stuff:26321 >alt.control-theory:49 alt.cooking-chat:1846 alt.cooking-chien:75 >alt.corel.graphics:9214 >ReSent-Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:35:24 -0500 (CDT) >ReSent-From: Aardvark >ReSent-To: spam , mtaylor@interramp.com, > NFIC@internetMCI.com >ReSent-Message-ID: >Apparently-To: > >Are you in Debt? >Are Creditors giving you grief? >Do you feel like a smuck by sponging off your friends? > > That couldn't feel all that good.. > >Why should you let money stress you out? Why should money get in the >way of friends? More often than not it does. Don't tell me all the >stuff you can't do because you don't have the cash to do it.... your >being materialitic when you do that! That is you are focusing on what >material objectes you don't have. > >In $$$.zip is a solution to your money problems. I used a regular zip >codes so that you don't have to spend much time in downloading. If >you can afford $5, do a little work and have a little faith, you'll be >paying off all those creditors in about one month... and have lots of >extra money to boot. > >Would this be a really good day to win $20,000 in the lottery? > >Check out $$$.zip... but only do so after you make the DECISION that >you are going to do anything to get out of debt. > > Good Luck & Prosperity to you, > > ALBINOcow. > > > > > > > -- Murphy's corollary: The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlamp of an oncoming train. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 00:15:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA29395 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id XAA29383 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iberia.it.earthlink.net (iberia-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.119]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA09668 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tnidell.earthlink.net (pool057.Max2.Raleigh.NC.DYNIP.ALTER.NET [153.37.111.57]) by iberia.it.earthlink.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA11176 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0b11.32.19960901204844.006abf80@earthlink.net> X-Sender: tcs@earthlink.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b11 (32) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 20:49:22 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Jody Boyd Subject: Help with Forgeries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We're getting attacked by someone that is forging their e-mail name to be those that are valid for the list. We're pretty sure we know who it is and I have tweaked SendMail to not allow messages from his domain. HOWEVER, this is based on a FROM: filter. I know it's been asked many times before, but if anyone has suggestions on how to block e-mail based on the domain listed in the MSGID or path or with sendmail, please let me know. thanks --- Please note new return address. The Earthlink account is subject to be closed soon. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 00:19:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA29414 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id XAA29404 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.interramp.com (smtp2.interramp.com [38.8.200.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA11770 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [38.11.195.243] by smtp2.interramp.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1.3-PSI-irsmtp) id VAA21077; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 21:08:04 -0400 X-Sender: us014319@pop3.interramp.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:05:38 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Mark E. Taylor" Subject: Re: PAML mail Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >At 10:15 AM -0400 8/29/1996, Michael Nolan wrote: > >>I recently had someone on AOL subscribe to my two (closed) lists, post a >>note about a list he was trying to start, at best tangentially related to >>the subject of my two lists, (two college sports teams) then unsubscribe, >>all in the same day. I'd call that hostile activity. I run two (closed) mailing lists on fraud. Both prohibit advertising. I had one guy sign on and post an ad for his mlm candy program (yes candy). I booted him off right away and sent a complaint to his ip. His ip has been getting tons of complaints about this guys activity. -- Mark Taylor Editor Online Fraud Newsletter Find out about fraud schemes on the internet and elsewhere! Subscribe to the Fraud-Discuss mailing list by sending message to Listmanager@Silverquick.com: join fraud-discuss Find out about mlm frauds! Subscribe to the FraudMLM-Discuss by sending a message to Listmanager@Silverquick.com: join fraudMLM-discuss Get the news on internet frauds by subscribing to the Online Fraud Newsletter. Send message to Majordomo@pobox.com: subscribe online-fraud From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 00:23:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA29462 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id XAA29441 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunspot.tiac.net (sunspot.tiac.net [199.0.65.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA17402 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stanr@localhost) by sunspot.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.6.6.Beta9) id WAA21850; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:38:45 -0400 From: Stan Ryckman Message-Id: <199609020238.WAA21850@sunspot.tiac.net> Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit? To: lazlo@swcp.com (Lazlo Nibble) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:38:44 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199608302157.PAA28397@kitsune.swcp.com> from "Lazlo Nibble" at Aug 30, 96 03:57:39 pm Organization: Amber & Sneakers Fan Club X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Let me pose a question, and see how list managers feel about this. I'm a > > biological oceanographer and don't subscribe to any lists in physical > > oceanography, but I have a lot of colleagues in physical oceanography > > and often want to contact them for legitimate scientific reasons. Am I > > commiting a serious abuse if I look at the subscriber lists in physical > > oceanography to see if I can find Email address of my colleagues? > > It sounds from your example like you're talking about contacting > individuals at random simply based on their presence on a particular > interest list. If so, yes, I consider that abusive behavior. My > presence on a mailing list is an invitation for mail *from that list*, > not from anyone else. I read it differently. I think he's talking about looking at subscriber lists to try and find a particular person, not "contacting individuals at random", and I'd think that's OK. Of course, the person (or list subscribers) might be hidden anyway, but that's another issue. Cheers, Stan. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 00:24:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA29510 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id XAA29502 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cantec.com ([206.31.250.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA22602 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 21:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www by cantec.com with SMTP (IPAD 1.1i) id 2235000 ; Mon, 02 Sep 96 00:42:41 UTC Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960902043513.002b02c0@cantec.com> X-Sender: dbigham@cantec.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 00:35:13 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Dave Bigham Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:57 PM 8/30/96 -0600, you wrote: >> Let me pose a question, and see how list managers feel about this. I'm a >> biological oceanographer and don't subscribe to any lists in physical >> oceanography, but I have a lot of colleagues in physical oceanography >> and often want to contact them for legitimate scientific reasons. Am I >> commiting a serious abuse if I look at the subscriber lists in physical >> oceanography to see if I can find Email address of my colleagues? > >It sounds from your example like you're talking about contacting >individuals at random simply based on their presence on a particular >interest list. If so, yes, I consider that abusive behavior. My >presence on a mailing list is an invitation for mail *from that list*, >not from anyone else. > >-- >::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) > > Man, You've got a *serious* problem with the definition of abusive behavior. Members of a mailing list typically seem to use the list as a resource. If it's a public list, it's a public resource. Its value to any individual will depend on that part of the resource which is of interest. Be it e-mail addresses or knowledge, it's still a resource. I don't see much difference between the above example and an instance of my car breaking down in San Francisco (I live in Ohio), and my looking up Mechanics in the Yellow Pages. In this instance I am "talking about contacting individuals at random simply based on their presence" in the Yellow Pages. The abusive behavior is not the getting of names and/or mailing addresses from list managers, but rather, what it to be ultimately done with them. Your presence on a mailing list is not an invitation for anything. It is an agreement to participate with the list and its members and to accept the consequences of being on the list. Dave Bigham CanTec Communications From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 08:46:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA21795 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA21779 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:29:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA17909; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:27:03 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960902154041.00869020@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 08:40:41 -0700 To: "Mark E. Taylor" From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Spam Alert! ==Solve your Financial Problems== - $$$.zip (0/1) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:13 PM 9/1/96 -0700, Mark E. Taylor wrote: >Has anyone gotten any mail from this person? Hi, Mark, I haven't gotten any, but you might want to, next time you have something to forward, change the subject line. I saw it as: From: "Mark E. Taylor" Subject: ==Solve your Financial Problems== - $$$.zip (0/1) ...and I was about to delete it -- since it looked like spam -- until I decided that I hadn't reported enough spammers lately and was about to send a copy on to your postmaster! I wonder how many other people deleted it unread because it looked just like a spam. :) -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Milestone NOW! idyllmtn.com/~kynn/icons.html From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 09:09:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA24276 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA24237 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA18082; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:55:55 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960902160932.0086d1f8@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 09:09:32 -0700 To: Dave Bigham From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:35 AM 9/2/96 -0400, Dave Bigham wrote: >I don't see much difference between the above example and an instance of my >car breaking down in San Francisco (I live in Ohio), and my looking up >Mechanics in the Yellow Pages. In this instance I am "talking about >contacting individuals at random simply based on their presence" in the >Yellow Pages. Except that's what yellow pages are for -- looking up phone numbers. Mailing lists are generally not a way for people who aren't on the lists to get your email address -- they serve a different purpose. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Milestone NOW! idyllmtn.com/~kynn/icons.html From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 13:54:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA11931 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 13:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bbfm.di.com (bbfm.di.com [207.71.205.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA11923 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 13:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomorrow by bbfm.di.com (8.6.10/TD-1.22) with SMTP id NAA10971 for on Mon, 2 Sep 1996 13:13:13 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0b11.32.19960902134443.00a7bfb0@mail.di.com> X-Sender: today@mail.di.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b11 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 13:44:44 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Todd Day Subject: Re: Lists as 411 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I don't see much difference between the above example and an instance of my >car breaking down in San Francisco (I live in Ohio), and my looking up >Mechanics in the Yellow Pages. In this instance I am "talking about >contacting individuals at random simply based on their presence" in the >Yellow Pages. Change Yellow to White. Actually, even then, it isn't a good analogy. You'd have to look through the subscriber list to the San Francisco Examiner to make the equivalent analogy. I put my name on mailing lists to subscribe to the dialog. If I never post, no one should know whether I'm subscribed or not. Of course, the use of the subscriber list is really a list manager decision, and should be known by the subscriber up front. If there is no policy, I don't think it is too much of a leap of faith to expect that the subscriber list will not be used except for the purposes of delivering the list traffic. -todd- I have a feeling that this again will be another one of those "religious" topics, on which there is no consensus. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 14:24:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA14817 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 14:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA14777 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 14:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01I90EOCVBJ89JDDSI@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:15 EDT Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:15 EDT From: "E. ALLEN SMITH" Subject: List owner named in law suit (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <01I90EOCVBJ89JDDSI@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Yet another thing to worry about.... I suspect that moderated lists are particularly vulnerable to such suits. The setup I'm working on is forwarding all unaccepted mail to another list, so that I'm just determining where it goes, not whether it goes out at all. -Allen From: IN%"ncognito@gate.net" 29-AUG-1996 14:01:40.48 To: IN%"cypherpunks@toad.com" CC: Subj: List owner named in law suit (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:52:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Clay Irving Subject: List owner named in law suit I can't believe this one! Peter Laws, a recent graduate of the University of Arkansas, maintains an electronic mailing list called "SCAN-L". The list is provided for radio scanning enthusiasts. There are a few hundred subscribers to the list. Recently, in a thread about scanning publications, an employee of publication "A" apparently wrote something to offend someone at publication "B". Lo and behold, next thing you know, Peter is named in a lawsuit because he is the maintainer of the list. Something seems very, very wrong with this. I've never heard of anything like this before. Can a Email list maintainer be held liable for something someone else writes? Peter *just* graduated, and he needs all the help he can get. Thanks, in advance. -- Clay Irving N2VKG clay@panix.com http://www.panix.com/~clay/ From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 15:09:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA20903 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lithuania.it.earthlink.net (lithuania-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.58]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA20891 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tnidell.earthlink.net (pool005.Max13.Raleigh.NC.DYNIP.ALTER.NET [153.37.114.197]) by lithuania.it.earthlink.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA17718 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0b11.32.19960902180206.006b223c@earthlink.net> X-Sender: tcs@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b11 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 18:02:10 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Jody Boyd Subject: Re: List owner named in law suit (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 05:15 PM 9/2/96 EDT, you wrote: >Something seems very, very wrong with this. I've never heard of >anything like this before. Can a Email list maintainer be held liable for >something someone else writes? I would say it depends on the previous behavior of the list maintainer. If he was in the habbit of coming down on those that made disparaging remarks about other members or products and DID NOT do the same in this case he may be liable. I'd doubt it though. It could be he is wanted in court to provide evidence to support the plaintif claim. There would have to be real damage which I don't think would be possible regarding an opinion of a product unless it was technically wrong. Even then proving real damage over a discussion list is doubtful. --- Please note new return address. The Earthlink account is subject to be closed soon. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 17:09:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA27996 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fang.dsto.defence.gov.au (fang.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA27977 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au by fang.dsto.defence.gov.au; (8.6.12/1.1.8.2/13May95-0346PM) id JAA21887; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:36:25 +0930 Received: by msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au with Microsoft Mail id <322C6CA6@msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au>; Tue, 03 Sep 96 09:36:38 CST From: "Gabb, Andrew" To: list-managers Subject: RE: List owner named in law suit (fwd) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 96 09:33:00 CST Message-ID: <322C6CA6@msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:52:36 -0400 (EDT) >From: Clay Irving >Subject: List owner named in law suit > >I can't believe this one! > >Peter Laws, a recent graduate of the University of Arkansas, maintains >an electronic mailing list called "SCAN-L". The list is provided for >radio scanning enthusiasts. There are a few hundred subscribers to the list. >Recently, in a thread about scanning publications, an employee of >publication "A" apparently wrote something to offend someone at publication >"B". >Lo and behold, next thing you know, Peter is named in a lawsuit because he is >the maintainer of the list. > >Something seems very, very wrong with this. I've never heard of >anything like this before. Can a Email list maintainer be held liable for >something someone else writes? I suspect that an attempt will be made to liken a mailing list to a newspaper, in which case the last question can be answered with a qualified 'yes'. The obvious defence is that the list manager has no control over what is written, only providing a reflector service to those who want to hear what others say. This defence will be weakened, of course, if you censor (or rather filter) certain mailings or membership, or if the mailing list is moderated. In the latter case, the list manager is exercising editorial control to some extent. And with that comes some measure of responsibility. Not a nice situation, really. Andrew ==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+== Andrew Gabb Andrew.Gabb@dsto.defence.gov.au Information Technology Division Defence Science and Technology Organisation Ph +61 8 8259 5505 Fax +61 8 8259 5980 171 Labs ITD/DSTO, P.O. Box 1500, Salisbury SA 5108, Australia From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 18:54:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA03880 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 18:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA03873 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 18:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from oliver@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id VAA04818; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:52:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:52:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Oliver Garfield To: Todd Day cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: re: credit card managing software In-Reply-To: <3.0b11.32.19960902134443.00a7bfb0@mail.di.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there a program or service for managing credit card transactions that you would recommend? *********************************************************************** *Oliver Garfield email: oliver@panix.com * *World Health Foundation phone: 212-877-4230 * *125 Riverside Drive * *New York, NY 10024 * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 21:41:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA17176 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA17169 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA18986; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:31:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199609030431.XAA18986@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit? To: kynn@idyllmtn.com (Kynn Bartlett) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:31:57 -0500 (CDT) Cc: dbigham@cantec.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960902160932.0086d1f8@mail.idyllmtn.com> from "Kynn Bartlett" at Sep 2, 96 09:09:32 am From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kynn Bartlett said... | |Except that's what yellow pages are for -- looking up phone numbers. |Mailing lists are generally not a way for people who aren't on the lists |to get your email address -- they serve a different purpose. I'm sorry - but I really can't see what else a public "lists" command is for. If it's private, and someone joins to get the list and leaves - that may well be another matter. All our lists are private, for specific reasons which vary from simply not wanting to moderate the list, to being by invitation only, to simply avoiding spammers. -Miles On one, I got tired of having to deal with several attempted subs per week from list-seekers, who just wanted to see what the [invitational] list was about... From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 22:09:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA21234 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from llama.swcp.com (llama.swcp.com [198.59.115.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA21210 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by llama.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id XAA10849 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:04:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199609030504.XAA10849@llama.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:04:46 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> It sounds from your example like you're talking about contacting >> individuals at random simply based on their presence on a particular >> interest list. If so, yes, I consider that abusive behavior. My >> presence on a mailing list is an invitation for mail *from that list*, >> not from anyone else. > > Man, You've got a *serious* problem with the definition of abusive > behavior. Members of a mailing list typically seem to use the list as a > resource. If it's a public list, it's a public resource. Its value to > any individual will depend on that part of the resource which is of > interest. Be it e-mail addresses or knowledge, it's still a resource. Uh, no, sorry. The "resource" I'm providing is the traffic on the lists I run, not the names of the people who subscribe to the list. > I don't see much difference between the above example and an instance of my > car breaking down in San Francisco (I live in Ohio), and my looking up > Mechanics in the Yellow Pages. In this instance I am "talking about > contacting individuals at random simply based on their presence" in the > Yellow Pages. I don't buy your claim that subscribing to a mailing list is equivalent to buying an advertisement in the Yellow Pages offering the general public to contact you if they want a service performed. I subscribe to some lists because I'm actively interested in the subject and want to offer my active participation, and to some because I'm casually interested and just want to lurk. Someone who grabs my name off the subscriber list and emails me at random about the subject is no better than someone who sees me driving a VW pickup and tracks me down through my license plate number and calls me at home trying to chat me up about VW pickups -- it is, at its best, *unbelievably* rude. I don't like having to make my lists more and more "private" with every passing year, but these kinds of problems are dragging every list manager further and further down that road. If you leave subscriber information viewable to the world or make list names available via a "lists" command or allow open posting to a list, some jerk will inevitably come along who's willing to abuse that fact. And when you're picking up the pieces afterward, some other jerk will be *doubly* sure to let you know that he thinks you "asked for it" . . . -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 22:41:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA22529 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agt.net (clgrps02.agt.net [198.161.156.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA22521 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clgrpx04-port-26.agt.net (clgrpx04-port-26.agt.net [198.161.156.220]) by agt.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA07127 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:26:12 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:26:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199609030526.XAA07127@agt.net> X-Sender: lnault@mail.agt.net (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: lnault@agt.net (Larry Nault) Subject: Set-up Needed To Run Mailing List X-Mailer: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I asked about software for Windows 3.1 the other day and though I realize this is hardly the base to run a mailing list from I am going to try SLMail at the recommendation of a couple of the list members. (Thank you to those who responded to my request). Here is the problem I am running into now. As I said I am running Windows 3.1. My internet connection is through a local provider (A.G.T.) who provides me with an e-mail address and some space to store a web page. When I tried to set up SLMail it requested the following four addresses from me: Local Node: Local IP: Smart Host: Name Server: Since this shareware has no support I e-mailed a request to my service provider for these addresses and the response I received was "This is probably referring to settings for email used on a direct LAN connection." Do I need a direct LAN connection to operate a mailing list manager? If not how can I find the appropriate addresses for the above. Thank you in advance for your assistance. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _____ _____ / ~ L. Nault ~ / \ ___ / \ / ~ Professional Services ~ / \/ / \/ \-/ ~ Research Specialist ~ \ |=| / / \ |=| / ~ Calgary, AB ~ \_____/ / \_____/ ~ researcher@agt.net ~ / ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ /____ \ / \____________/ \__________/ Web Site http://www.agt.net/public/lnault/home.htm From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 04:54:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA18840 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 04:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unix.worldpath.net (unix.worldpath.net [206.152.180.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id EAA18833 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 04:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from remote1-unex-cs-1.worldpath.net (remote1-unex-cs-1.worldpath.net [206.152.181.41]) by unix.worldpath.net (8.7.5/8.7.3(CICNet)) with SMTP id HAA04001; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199609031142.HAA04001@unix.worldpath.net> X-Sender: bourbeau@unix.worldpath.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Ken Bourbeau Subject: FWD> spamorama Cc: jeff@addimension.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received from the Boston Computer Society mailinglist. Thought it would be of interest to all here: >Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:49:02 -0400 >From: darius@world.std.com (Darius Thabit) >To: isig@bcs.org >Subject: FWD> spamorama >Cc: nh-isig@bcs.org >Sender: owner-isig@bcs.org >Reply-To: isig@bcs.org > > >FYI ... > >------------------------------------ > >Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:33:43 -0700 (PDT) >From: Phil Agre > >[An RRE subscriber has found the spammers' secret clubhouse. Don't flame >or trash them, but I think it would be great if somebody wanted to monitor >the list and/or read the archives and write a thoughtful commentary on the >spammers' methods and thinking. I should say that not everyone on the list >is a spammer, but many are.] > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE). >Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below. >You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use >the "redirect" command. For information on RRE, including instructions >for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > >Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:43:31 -0500 >From: <> > >You might be interested to know about a list that appears to be gaining in >credibility among Internet marketers, the DEMA (Direct Email marketing >Association) list. I detest unsolicted commercial email but joined the list >just to keep tabs on what they're up to. > >Topics include such things as which newsgroup email-gathering software is >the best, how to make your unsolicted email targeted for the group so it's >more easily accepted, etc. > >I was mildly amused once that the moderator clipped a poster's sig file >because it exceeded the "6 lines dictated by netiquette"! I emailed and >asked, "Is it ok to waste someone else's resources but not your own?". He >wasn't amused, though. Needless to say my comments didn't make it to the >list. > >DEMA postings are archived at http://kww.com/dema/. > > > > Best to ya from the Sticks o New Hampshire, Kenny "I just showed you my own personal hell, and you want me to show you heaven?" MM 3/24/96 ----------------------------------------------------------- Home Page: http://www.zipnet.net/users/bourbeau/ Maria McKee Mailinglist email: bourbeau@worldpath.net Rod Stewart Digest email: rodfans@worldpath.net ------------------------------------------------------------ From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 06:54:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA27875 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id GAA27789 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 96 9:41:59 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Network outages? Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9609030942.aa00492@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I dunno if this is really the place to ask, but I have no idea where else to turn. Has anyone seen signs of connectivity problems between the mainland US and Europe? I have lots (like nearly 200) of outgoing mail queued, most for delivery to Sweden, France, etc, most since Thursday morning (29th Aug). Traceroute runs to those sites I can still get DNS info for times out at an IP address with an SOA pointing to Sprint (icp.net). I can't find any network info on their WWW site. Ideas? Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 06:59:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA28025 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mh1.well.com (mh1.well.com [206.15.64.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id GAA28015 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dburnet.us.net (endb4.laurel.us.net [198.240.112.40]) by mh1.well.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id GAA23311 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960903134413.0076a04c@mail.well.com> X-Sender: dburnet@mail.well.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:44:13 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "David A. Burnet" Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A point well made; it strikes me more and more that there is too strong a similarity between rapists and robbers who claim, "Well, the woman/house was so attractive, it was cleary an invitation to rape/rob". Such a statement is about shifting blame for anti-social behavior onto others. At 11:04 PM 9/2/96 -0600, you wrote: >I don't like having to make my lists more and more "private" with every >passing year, but these kinds of problems are dragging every list manager >further and further down that road. If you leave subscriber information >viewable to the world or make list names available via a "lists" command >or allow open posting to a list, some jerk will inevitably come along >who's willing to abuse that fact. And when you're picking up the pieces >afterward, some other jerk will be *doubly* sure to let you know that he >thinks you "asked for it" . . . -David ----------------------------------------------------------- David A. Burnet ; Jarrettsville, MD; USA Permanent Email Forwarding: Email Backup: From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 10:44:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA15504 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huey.disney.com (huey.disney.com [204.128.192.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA15495 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:36:17 -0700 (PDT) From: sullivan@fa.disney.com Received: from dalsdb (dalsdb.fa.disney.com [139.104.212.4]) by huey.disney.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA16531 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oilspot.fa.disney.com by dalsdb with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) id m0uxz2w-00002MC; Tue, 3 Sep 96 10:13 PDT Received: from higgins.fa.disney.com by oilspot.fa.disney.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) id m0uxz2x-0009D7C; Tue, 3 Sep 96 10:13 PDT Received: by higgins.fa.disney.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) id m0uxz3S-0005bdC; Tue, 3 Sep 96 10:14 PDT Message-Id: <9609031014.ZM9634@higgins> Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:14:25 -0700 References: <199609030800.BAA01363@miles.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 26oct94 MediaMail) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I don't like having to make my lists more and more "private" with every > passing year, but these kinds of problems are dragging every list manager > further and further down that road. If you leave subscriber information > viewable to the world or make list names available via a "lists" command > or allow open posting to a list, some jerk will inevitably come along > who's willing to abuse that fact. And when you're picking up the pieces > afterward, some other jerk will be *doubly* sure to let you know that he > thinks you "asked for it" . . . (A "jerk" responds--lovely method of discussion you have) Wait a second. One the one hand you bemoan the fact people can get your subscriber lists then you whine about having to make the subscriber lists private. Which is it? Do you want people to be able to get at your subscriber lists or not? You can't have your cake and yadda, yadda, yadda. If you run a mailing list and don't want your subscriber lists going out then don't make them available to the public. Since I run my lists mostly by hand that's easy for me--I just don't mail the subscriber list if people ask for it--so maybe I'm missing something here. Is making subscriber lists unavailable to the public such a hard thing in the automated packages? --- Michael Sullivan sullivan@fa.disney.com Walt Disney Feature Animation +1 818 560 8196 (voice) 500 S. Buena Vista St. +1 818 560 8290 (fax) Burbank, CA 91521-4870 From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 16:43:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA29192 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA29128 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dfl@localhost) by panix.com (8.7.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id SAA06212 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:58:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Danny Lieberman Message-Id: <199609032258.SAA06212@panix.com> Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:58:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just saw this thread and I need to make a couple of points on this, as subscribers to my "private" list were spammed repeatedly by someone who used just this tack - pulling the subscriber file for my list, under a bogus address. In fact I didn't know I could have the command blocked until I contacted my service provider, after the fact. Having done so the subscribers are safer, but the damage was already done. -- Danny Lieberman dfl@panix.com From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 16:59:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA09090 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x4.boston.juno.com (x4.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id QAA09051 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from moonstruck@juno.com) by x4.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id TAA00546; Tue, 03 Sep 1996 19:38:11 EDT To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:29:27 EST Subject: New to managing. Message-ID: <19960903.192929.4015.0.Moonstruck@juno.com> References: <199608101650.JAA19177@miles.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,10-11,15-22 From: moonstruck@juno.com (Kris Clark) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all, I'm interested in starting a mailing list, but am having a little trouble finding out where to begin. I've done a few searches with webcrawker but haven't come up with anything that pointed me in the right direction. Can someone help me out? I have Windows 3.1, but am under the impression that one needs software such as UNIX, or Solaris -- is this correct? What about OS/2, is there anything out there that will run under it? (I have OS/2 Warp.) I'd appreciate any help anyone may be able to give me about getting past this little confusing first step. :> (I've been very successful in teaching myself HTML, but for some reason I just can't figure this one out.) Thanks so much! Kris From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 19:13:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA20196 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from okra02.millsaps.edu (okra02.millsaps.edu [151.160.8.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA20139 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609040204.TAA20139@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from lh1142d.millsaps.edu (lh1142.millsaps.edu) by okra03.millsaps.edu (MX V4.2 VAX) with SMTP; Tue, 03 Sep 1996 21:02:58 -0500 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Larry Olin Horn" Organization: Millsaps College To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:04:32 -0500 Subject: list plundering Reply-To: hornlo@okra.millsaps.edu X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk FYI - The "lists" command was sent to both "majordomo" and "listserv" addresses at Millsaps (we don't use either one), although both the "To:" addresses were set to whatever@valnet.es, as you see below. >Received: from boqueron.vnet.es by okra03.millsaps.edu ... Tue, 03 Sep 1996 18:44:45 -0500 >Received: from correo.vnet.es ([194.179.124.237]) by boqueron.vnet.es (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA07001; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:27:21 +0200 >Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:27:21 +0200 >Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960904013112.24dfa964@correo.vnet.es> >X-Sender: gmvilchez@correo.vnet.es >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >To: listserv@valnet.es >From: "Gabriel M. Vilchez" > >lists From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 19:28:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA21428 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA21412 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (alancz@hou-tx16-47.ix.netcom.com [205.184.193.175]) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA21130 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:21:45 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:21:45 -0700 Message-Id: <199609040221.TAA21130@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> From: alancz@ix.netcom.com (Alan Czarnek) Subject: Signature Line Policies?? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I have a couple of people on my list who seem to post mainly to advertise things in their sig line..... most messages from them look something like this.... >From Joe Shmoe....... ------------------------------------- Yes, Sandy, I agree with your comment! Joe ----------- ATTENTION!!! Visit Joe's Internet Spamarama!!! All the spam you need in one convenient location! Come visit us at http:/www.spam.com/spam/spam/galore.html Check out our daily specials and new items... Blah Blah Blah........ ------------------------------------- In other words their commercial sig line is far longer than any message that they ever post. Do any of you list managers have any workable policies to deal with this problem???? Thanks, Alan Cz From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 19:33:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA21037 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA21023 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id UAA22655 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:17:21 -0600 Message-Id: <199609040217.UAA22655@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:17:21 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Wait a second. One the one hand you bemoan the fact people can get your > subscriber lists then you whine about having to make the subscriber > lists private. Which is it? Do you want people to be able to get at > your subscriber lists or not? I'd like to be able to leave my subscriber lists world-readable without it inevitably leading to abuse of that information by spam-spewing sleazebags. Kind of like I was able to do until about eighteen months ago. > If you run a mailing list and don't want your subscriber lists going out > then don't make them available to the public. Wow, what a trenchant and insightful observation. Let's all give Mike a big hand! > Michael Sullivan sullivan@fa.disney.com > Walt Disney Feature Animation +1 818 560 8196 (voice) > 500 S. Buena Vista St. +1 818 560 8290 (fax) > Burbank, CA 91521-4870 I take it from the fact that you provide this information "publicly", you wouldn't mind someone wandering over to rec.arts.disney.* and telling everyone that they're welcome to call you to chat about what a jerk they think Eisner is, ask for tips on breaking into the biz or getting replacements for their laser-rotted copies of the BatB "Work-In-Progress" LD, email you for GIFs of Esmeralda sticking things up herself, etc. etc. After all, if you didn't want the information abused, you wouldn't let anyone have it, right? -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 20:13:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA25334 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inforamp.net (Mail.InfoRamp.Net [204.191.136.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id UAA25327 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Widgette (ts46-15.tor.iSTAR.ca [204.191.141.115]) by mail.inforamp.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id XAA02139; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:04:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:04:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199609040304.XAA02139@mail.inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: alancz@ix.netcom.com (Alan Czarnek) From: David Lloyd-Jones Subject: Re: Signature Line Policies?? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan, There is a byte of Netiquette of long standing that no .sig shall be more than four lines. People tend to be relaxed about it: on sci.econ.research, which I moderate, it takes a lot of these guys five lines to get to the building their Institute is in, let alone the fax numbers, e-mail addresses and office hours... Still there's nothing to stop you going back to the Good Olde Days -- only two of text if you use two for lines of asterisks. Cheers, -dlj. At 07:21 PM 03/09/96 -0700, Alan Czarnek wrote: >Hi, > >I have a couple of people on my list who seem to post mainly to >advertise things in their sig line..... most messages from them >look something like this.... > >>From Joe Shmoe....... >------------------------------------- >Yes, Sandy, I agree with your comment! > >Joe > >----------- > >ATTENTION!!! > >Visit Joe's Internet Spamarama!!! > >All the spam you need in one convenient location! >Come visit us at http:/www.spam.com/spam/spam/galore.html > >Check out our daily specials and new items... > >Blah Blah Blah........ >------------------------------------- > >In other words their commercial sig line is far longer than >any message that they ever post. Do any of you list managers >have any workable policies to deal with this problem???? > >Thanks, > >Alan Cz > > > > > From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 20:28:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA25685 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.16.65]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id UAA25671 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ec2 (205.160.16.65) by ec2.earthchannel.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 1.1) with SMTP id ; Tue, 03 Sep 1996 23:16:46 -0400 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:16:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 3 Sep 96 at 20:17, Lazlo Nibble wrote: > > 500 S. Buena Vista St. +1 818 560 8290 (fax) > > Burbank, CA 91521-4870 > > > copies of the BatB "Work-In-Progress" LD, email you for GIFs of > Esmeralda sticking things up herself, etc. etc. After all, if you > didn't want the information abused, you wouldn't let anyone have it, > right? > I think you forgot the more plausible junk faxes, which can tie up the line, waste paper etc. :-) Gess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Gess Shankar pax vobiscum gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com Earth Channel Communications, LLC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 4 02:58:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA13562 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 02:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bbfm.di.com (bbfm.di.com [207.71.205.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id CAA13551 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 02:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomorrow by bbfm.di.com (8.6.10/TD-1.22) with SMTP id CAA23584 for on Wed, 4 Sep 1996 02:40:21 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0b15.32.19960904024306.00b7e818@mail.di.com> X-Sender: today@mail.di.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b15 (32) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 02:43:10 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Todd Day Subject: list command/.sigs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >maybe I'm missing something here. Is making subscriber lists unavailable to >the public such a hard thing in the automated packages? I think Michael is missing one of the more convenient reasons for leaving the subscriber list public. If someone subscribes from a machine like apple.fruit.com but their simple email address is user@fruit.com, often their From: address will be user@apple.fruit.com and the automated packages will sign them up at that address. If fruit.com is the inbound MX and is configured properly, the list mail will still make it to this person. When they go to unsubscribe, perhaps they are using orange.fruit.com that day. An automated package isn't going to know that user@apple.fruit.com = user@orange.fruit.com, and the unsubscribe will fail. The user might even try unsubbing user@fruit.com, but of course, that will fail too. What recourse for the user? Grab the user list, figure out which address they got subscribed as, and try again. Majordomo can be set to be a bit fuzzy so that the above example is actually handled. However, you can construct any several more complicated situations involving forwarding files, etc, where it would be convenient for the user to figure out what address they had subscribed under by using the subscriber list. I used to run with open lists. Got burned by spammers. Now I have to deal with tracking down these unsubscribe (and address change) cases myself. That's why you'll find list managers bitter over crap caused by these email spammers. You go out of your way to do a service for the net to pay back the institution that has given you so much, and some johnny-come-lately appears and screws it all up for you - making you into the computer security nazi you always loathed as an undergraduate. [Warning, strong opinions ahead] Re: Signature Line Policies?? >There is a byte of Netiquette of long standing that no .sig shall be more >than four lines. Personally, I've always considered .sigs to be the appendix of the electronic letter body - perhaps useful early in its evolution, but completely useless today (possibly poisonous :-) I mean, if I want your address or phone number, I'll just email you for it. Or, hey, I don't think I've ever seen *that* clever quote from (insert science fiction film or book or tv series) in all my ten years of reading USENET! Hell, one of my workmates still uses that "To err is human... to really screw things up requires a computer" quote in his .sig. Even the cheez gift industry stopped using that one - the last coffee mug I saw with that quote actually used greenbar paper with the font found at the bottom of checks! On the list that I run that I really care about, I hand edit each digest. All .sigs are trimmed down to just the writer's name. If they include an email address that is drastically different from the one in the From: line, I'll let that by as well. Sounds drastic? I've gotten only *ONE* complaint, and that was from a vendor who wanted to include an eight line monster with two pager numbers, two fax numbers three regional support numbers, a full street address, and a quote from Pulp Fiction. Most of the submitters to my digest don't even bother with a .sig anymore - they have seen the light. :-) As a reader, it is tough to keep up with a 40k digest per day, so I try to make it as easy as possible for my readers to get through. I also remove excessive quoting (which seems to be a big problem on this list). Huge amounts of quoting makes digests *incredibly* difficult to read and follow. (hint hint! :-) Of course, this signature policy isn't for everyone. It requires a bit of work (I edit with vi, and have it down to "dd.." (three lines of a four line .sig gone with that keystroke sequence)). And it probably wouldn't work on a more social (as in soc.*) type list (I run an automobile list). But my subscribers seem to be happy with this policy. I do run a web site that goes with the list that allows subscribers to enter all the info that would normally go into a .sig file, and people can do lookups and searches on that info. -todd- From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 4 03:29:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id DAA14621 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 03:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id DAA14614 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 03:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA17806; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 03:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 03:23:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Cyndi Norman Message-Id: <199609041023.DAA17806@weber.ucsd.edu> To: alancz@ix.netcom.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu In-reply-to: Alan Czarnek's message of Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:21:45 -0700 <199609040221.TAA21130@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> Subject: Signature Line Policies?? Reply-to: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:21:45 -0700 From: alancz@ix.netcom.com (Alan Czarnek) I have a couple of people on my list who seem to post mainly to advertise things in their sig line..... most messages from them look something like this.... [...] In other words their commercial sig line is far longer than any message that they ever post. Do any of you list managers have any workable policies to deal with this problem???? Alan, thanks for putting the problem so sucintly. I deal with it by banning all advertisment (well, I have a file on the webpage stating exactly what I mean by that) and I make it clear that .sigs count as advertising. When I subscribe people, I comment on their .sigs if I think they will be a problem and tell them they are welcome to read posts if they are a commercial entity but that ads are not allowed should they choose to post. Cyndi __________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@ucsd.edu ___________________________________________ http://weber.ucsd.edu/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 4 03:33:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id DAA14313 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 03:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sol.utu.fi (sol.utu.fi [130.232.1.30]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id DAA14298 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 03:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by utu.fi id <12447-458>; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:13:08 +0300 Subject: Re: Network outages ? From: Matti Aarnio To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:12:58 +0300 (EET DST) In-Reply-To: <199609040800.BAA07205@miles.greatcircle.com> from "List-Managers-Digest" at Sep 4, 96 01:00:29 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message-Id: <96Sep4.131308+0300_eet_dst.12447-458+1186@utu.fi> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I dunno if this is really the place to ask, but I have no idea where else to > turn. > > Has anyone seen signs of connectivity problems between the mainland US and > Europe? I have lots (like nearly 200) of outgoing mail queued, most for > delivery to Sweden, France, etc, most since Thursday morning (29th Aug). > > Traceroute runs to those sites I can still get DNS info for times out at an > IP address with an SOA pointing to Sprint (icp.net). I can't find any > network info on their WWW site. There are massive performance problems at/near Pensauken, NJ, where the 34 Mbps link from NORDUnet reaches USA at Sprint's connection point. Basically (I have been told) the problem is caused by several high-speed links coming in, and without enough capacity at FDDI-rings going out... As if that would not be bad enough, the saturation causes trouble at global IP routeing updates from peering routeing systems to the trans-atlantic link system (well, to NORDUnet), and as the routers can't successfully talk with each other (due to 80% packet losses at the times), the routing starts to flap around making things even worse. > Ideas? Patience. Sprint is going to replace those FDDI rings with 622 Mbps guaranteed bandwidth ATM, but it will take some time yet. > Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer > > http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html /Matti Aarnio From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 4 10:14:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA06990 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huey.disney.com (huey.disney.com [204.128.192.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA06973 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:07:11 -0700 (PDT) From: sullivan@fa.disney.com Received: from dalsdb (dalsdb.fa.disney.com [139.104.212.4]) by huey.disney.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA18010 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oilspot.fa.disney.com by dalsdb with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) id m0uyLPD-000004C; Wed, 4 Sep 96 10:06 PDT Received: from higgins.fa.disney.com by oilspot.fa.disney.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) id m0uyLPE-0009D6C; Wed, 4 Sep 96 10:06 PDT Received: by higgins.fa.disney.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) id m0uyLPj-0005hxC; Wed, 4 Sep 96 10:06 PDT Message-Id: <9609041006.ZM13283@higgins> Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:06:54 -0700 References: <199609040800.BAA07205@miles.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 26oct94 MediaMail) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'd like to be able to leave my subscriber lists world-readable without it > inevitably leading to abuse of that information by spam-spewing sleazebags. > Kind of like I was able to do until about eighteen months ago. Welcome to 1996. > > If you run a mailing list and don't want your subscriber lists going out > > then don't make them available to the public. > > Wow, what a trenchant and insightful observation. Let's all give Mike a > big hand! Since you apparently hadn't thought of it, I figured I should point it out ;-). > I take it from the fact that you provide this information "publicly", you > wouldn't mind someone wandering over to rec.arts.disney.* and telling > everyone that they're welcome to call you to chat about what a jerk they > think Eisner is, ask for tips on breaking into the biz or getting > replacements for their laser-rotted copies of the BatB "Work-In-Progress" > LD, email you for GIFs of Esmeralda sticking things up herself, etc. etc. > After all, if you didn't want the information abused, you wouldn't > let anyone have it, right? Apples and oranges, funny guy. The original thread started by people complaining about someone gathering list information. Nothing had been done with the list information, it was just being gathered. I've never claimed that _abuse_ of list information was a good thing. I was just pointing out that it's silly to complain about someone merely gathering information because they _might_ do something bad with it. And if I didn't want people calling me or mailing me or emailing me, I wouldn't have that information in my .sig. People email me Disney-related stuff all the time. No big deal. --- Michael Sullivan sullivan@fa.disney.com Walt Disney Feature Animation +1 818 560 8196 (voice) 500 S. Buena Vista St. +1 818 560 8290 (fax) Burbank, CA 91521-4870 From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 4 10:59:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA09738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newfed.FRB.GOV (newfed.frb.gov [198.3.221.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA09692 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRB.GOV by newfed.FRB.GOV (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA12213; Wed, 4 Sep 96 13:50:32 EDT Received: from kryten.frb.gov by frbgate.FRB.GOV (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA03350; Wed, 4 Sep 96 13:50:05 EDT Received: from localhost.frb.gov (localhost.frb.gov [127.0.0.1]) by kryten.frb.gov (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA06934; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:46:56 -0400 Message-Id: <199609041746.NAA06934@kryten.frb.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: kryten.frb.gov: Host localhost.frb.gov didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: sullivan@fa.disney.com Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 04 Sep 1996 10:06:54 PDT." <9609041006.ZM13283@higgins> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:46:55 -0400 From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Apples and oranges, funny guy. The original thread started by people >complaining about someone gathering list information. Nothing had been >done with the list information, it was just being gathered. I've never gathering information only.....not going to use it?? hard to imagine. jmb From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 4 21:43:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA21945 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA21931 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA00081; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:41:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199609050441.XAA00081@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Illegitimate information posting! beware! Abuse may follow! To: jmb@FRB.GOV (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:41:00 -0500 (CDT) Cc: sullivan@fa.disney.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609041746.NAA06934@kryten.frb.gov> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at Sep 4, 96 01:46:55 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler said... | |>Apples and oranges, funny guy. The original thread started by people |>complaining about someone gathering list information. Nothing had been |>done with the list information, it was just being gathered. I've never | | gathering information only.....not going to use it?? The point is that until they have *abused* the information, they have done nothing wrong. They can even *use* the information without *abusing* it. Hey, I've been known to use information myself on occasion. Some of you should be more careful - hanging out on a list like this, you might actually *gather information*. The horror! -Miles 8^P From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 4 22:13:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA22969 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.neosoft.com (mailbox.neosoft.com [206.109.1.16]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA22956 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com (root@bonkers.neosoft.com [206.109.2.48]) by mailbox.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA20567 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:06:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id XAA03060 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:56:17 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199609050456.XAA03060@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Illegitimate information posting! beware! Abuse may follow! To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:56:17 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > |>Apples and oranges, funny guy. The original thread started by people > |>complaining about someone gathering list information. Nothing had been > |>done with the list information, it was just being gathered. > | > | gathering information only.....not going to use it?? > > The point is that until they have *abused* the information, they have > done nothing wrong. They can even *use* the information without *abusing* > it. A number of people seem to be forgetting that abuse was done during the information gathering. I seem to recall various site admin-types getting distressed because large loads were being put on their listservers from multiple "who" commands done on lists with large numbers of subscribers. And yes, there was intent to use the information. An intent which some people objected very strongly to. (Peter just about hit the roof when I told him what was going on, e.g. -- interesting, because the two of us had about the opposite reactions to this occurance then we usually do to this kind of situation....) From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 4 23:30:29 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA24381 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA24374 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id BAA00834; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:18:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199609050618.BAA00834@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Illegitimate information posting! beware! Abuse may follow! To: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:18:16 -0500 (CDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609050456.XAA03060@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Stephanie da Silva" at Sep 4, 96 11:56:17 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephanie da Silva said... | |A number of people seem to be forgetting that abuse was done during the |information gathering. I seem to recall various site admin-types getting |distressed because large loads were being put on their listservers from |multiple "who" commands done on lists with large numbers of subscribers. OK, but unless I misunderstood something, it was unintentional "abuse", and it was stopped when the complaints came in, and they committed to fix those problems before even considering restarting. Right? |And yes, there was intent to use the information. An intent which some |people objected very strongly to. And their reaction to those objections was? -Miles From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 01:43:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA28635 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outlawnet.com ([204.245.248.202]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id BAA28586 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.245.248.225] (liv1.outlawnet.com [204.245.248.225]) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA05307; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:42:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: garyb@outlawnet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: garyb@fxt.com (Gary Bickford) Subject: Re: list command/.sigs Cc: Todd Day Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Todd Day >As a reader, it is tough to keep up with a 40k digest per day, so I try to >make it as easy as possible for my readers to get through. I also remove >excessive quoting (which seems to be a big problem on this list). Huge >amounts of quoting makes digests *incredibly* difficult to read and follow. >(hint hint! :-) This reminds me - long standing fantasy of mine (since 1983 at least) - maybe this is the right list to discuss it. I've always felt that the mechanism of manual quoting in news & mail messages was inefficient on several levels. I'd like to see a protocol & related standards (shades of Ted Nelson!) for inclusion by reference, offset & length, for whatever snippet one wants to include, rather than the actual snippet. This of course requires more sophisticated server/client interaction, but would eliminate the doubling or so of traffic and storage, and no doubt improve the overall communication. I've built some chat systems that could probably be adapted to do this, using a lightweight sql server. So, oh mighty mail system builders, how 'bout it? how about a real dbms-backed mail/object server, and client (well, maybe just a web page, I know, I know) | end --+-- Gary Bickford | FXT Corp. / Informat Communications | 541-923-3060 | fax 541-923-5537 From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 05:29:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA09652 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca [142.2.20.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id FAA09645 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (920330.SGI/920502.SGI.AUTO) for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA23860; Thu, 5 Sep 96 09:15:11 -0300 From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Message-Id: <9609051215.AA23860@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Subject: Illegitimate information posting! [comments] To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:14:50 -0300 (ADT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephanie da Silva writes, in response to what I think is a very valid comment by meo@schoneal.com: >>The point is that until they have *abused* the information, they have >>done nothing wrong. They can even *use* the information without *abusing* >>it. >A number of people seem to be forgetting that abuse was done during the >information gathering. I seem to recall various site admin-types getting >distressed because large loads were being put on their listservers from >multiple "who" commands done on lists with large numbers of subscribers. But I think we are dealing with different issues here. Overloading a system is one thing, collecting information is another. They may be connected, but overloading someone's system is just as serious whether it is done for legitimate reasons (ping or anonymous ftp) as for nefarious ones, and the legitimacy of the reason is a separate question. A couple of days ago I posed the question of what the implications would be of my sending a single "who" command to a list to look for addresses of scientific colleagues. About half the responses were negative, but I never found any that had any legitimate concerns to support them. Most were of the form, "I don't like it" or "I didn't subscribe so that you could learn my email address", but I fail to see why subscribing to a mailing list should necessarily guarantee any more privacy than having your name in the telephone book or on a list of homeowners (unless the list is set up that way). So I agree with meo@schoneal.com that gathering the information is not in itself bad, although of course there can be associated offenses like overloading the system by excessive demands, or abusing the information by subsequent spamming. What concerns me far more is the attitude expressed by many list owners that people who don't respect their personal philosophies of list management are intrinsically evil. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 05:59:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA11100 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id FAA11075 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id HAA03654; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:57:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199609051257.HAA03654@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Illegitimate information posting! [comments] To: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:57:43 -0500 (CDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9609051215.AA23860@biome.bio.dfo.ca> from "Bill Silvert" at Sep 5, 96 09:14:50 am From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bill Silvert said... | |What concerns me far more is the attitude |expressed by many list owners that people who don't respect their |personal philosophies of list management are intrinsically evil. That pretty well sums up my frustrations with the discussion. That and the fact that it's a moving target. Some of us keep hopping back and forth between the specific instance and the general case as if they were interchangeable, when the whole point (for others of us) is that this *instance* is neither typical spamming nor necessarily evil. Please note that I say "us" n both cases, because regardless of our feelings about this case, or about list/who commands, we are still a community of list-managers with a lot to offer each other. Religious wars tend to be detrimental to the health of all involved, and I'd hate to see this turn into one. That said, if my sarcasm has offended anyone, I apologize - my intent was to inject a bit of humor and perspective, not antagonize or put down... -Miles From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 08:50:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA21954 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from camco.celestial.com (camco.celestial.com [192.136.111.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA21944 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by camco.celestial.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0uygS1-0009PzC; Thu, 5 Sep 96 08:34 PDT Message-Id: From: bill@celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Subject: Re: Illegitimate information posting! beware! Abuse may follow! To: meo@schoneal.com Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: arielle@taronga.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609050618.BAA00834@wildride.schoneal.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Sep 5, 96 01:18:16 am Reply-To: bill@Celestial.COM Organization: Celestial Software, Mercer Island, WA 98040 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >OK, but unless I misunderstood something, it was >unintentional "abuse", and it was stopped when >the complaints came in, and they committed to fix >those problems before even considering restarting. >Right? > I think I've heard this before regarding FBI files or something like that haven't I. It doesn't pass the laugh-test. Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Systems, Inc. UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 2835 82nd Avenue S.E. S-100 FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views ... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering. -- Doctor Who, "Face of Evil" From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 10:14:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA29054 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ephsa.alamo.net (ephsa.alamo.net [204.57.116.195]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA29038 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from endicor.com (Ufezzik@localhost) by ephsa.alamo.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id LAA16712 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:47:47 -0500 Received: by lotharon.endicor.com (8.7.5/Endicor) id KAA15479; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:30:18 -0500 (CDT) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Xref: endicor.com endicor.lists.list-managers:3738 Newsgroups: endicor.lists.list-managers From: tsarna@endicor.com (Ty Sarna) Subject: "Stupid, stupid minds!" (was: Re: PAML mail) Message-ID: Organization: Endicor Technologies, Inc., San Antonio, Texas References: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:27:05 GMT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article , Mark E. Taylor wrote: > I run two (closed) mailing lists on fraud. Both prohibit advertising. I > had one guy sign on and post an ad for his mlm candy program (yes candy). > I booted him off right away and sent a complaint to his ip. His ip has So you run a list about MLM frauds, and this guy posts about his MLM scheme there? Seems like a pretty clear admission to me :-) I've got an even better one. This morning in my sat.announce moderation mailbox I found a spam advertising spamming services. The best part? They're giving away t-shirts with their logo ("Info.Now") on them to their customers. The ultimate "kick me" sign! So, if you see anyone wearing an Info.Now t-shirt, be sure to give 'em a good thwap upside the head, won't you? From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 10:23:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA29392 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu (spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA29369 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.7.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA08697 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:08:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id NAA03583 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:02:48 -0400 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:02:48 -0400 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199609051702.NAA03583@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Illegitimate information... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Some of us keep hopping back and forth >between the specific instance and the general case >as if they were interchangeable, when the whole >point (for others of us) is that this *instance* >is neither typical spamming nor necessarily evil. I think that the crux of the matter, in this case, is the fact that the behavior in question came from a source which (IMHO) should have both known better *and* given forewarning. Sure, you'll see the occasional schmo@isp.com or smith@booga.net pulling down a subscriber list; those have to be evaluated on an in- dividual basis. On the other hand, I *expect* the serious online vendors (like digital.com) to be aware of the sensitivity of fellow information providers. One must wonder how our counterparts within DEC would react if one of us just started winkling out every listserver in the digital.com domain. Does anyone here remember the mini-furor about the "not for the public" anonymous FTP site at SRI? I wasn't hit by digital.com in this one, but I would have expected a bit of 'professional courtesy.' --Wes From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 17:44:29 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26201 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA26173 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shooter.bluemarble.net (shooter.bluemarble.net [199.18.207.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA01607 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (edit@localhost) by shooter.bluemarble.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA05828; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:50:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:50:04 -0500 (EST) From: Paul E Kayak To: list-managers@greatcircle.com cc: lazlo@swep.com Subject: Is the list command legit? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Reading your reply, Aug 30, to the ocean-scientist.... I take it that you can draw the line (for a person keeping an "unlisted number") at whether someone will take the time to type out a subscribe-me command, joining temporarily? Am looking for a wall more solid than that. Data entry workers can be hired to go through, copying lists two or three a minute - if they get the knack, making up commercial/mailing (post office junk) lists. For example. We want to put dampers on the quick-scan business, I think. Another 2 cents. From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 17:47:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26620 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA26603 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shooter.bluemarble.net (shooter.bluemarble.net [199.18.207.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA28995 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (edit@localhost) by shooter.bluemarble.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA19006; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:20:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:20:37 -0500 (EST) From: Paul E Kayak Reply-To: Paul E Kayak To: Todd Day cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: list command/.sigs In-Reply-To: <3.0b15.32.19960904024306.00b7e818@mail.di.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Todd Day wrote: > >maybe I'm missing something here. Is making subscriber lists > >unavailable to the public such a hard thing... > > I think Michael is missing one of the more convenient reasons... > ... > if they go to unsubscribe, perhaps they are using orange.fruit.com that > day. user@orange.fruit.com, and the unsubscribe will fail. The user > might even The publicly-available list is sort of a way to get back into the house when one has lost his key? I benefitted from your discussion. - A novice, Paul From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 17:47:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA25614 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id QAA25606 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom9.netcom.com (netcom9.netcom.com [192.100.81.119]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id AAA29623 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (grafolog@localhost) by netcom9.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id GAA04716; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 06:59:43 GMT Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 06:59:43 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon X-Sender: grafolog@netcom9 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Question: Listserv & closed subscriber lists Message-ID: x-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Setup: A listserv list that requires the list-owner to approve all subscribe requests to the list. Question: How many messages are generated, and by who/what, for each subscribe request. Is there a listserv FAQ somewhere -- I looked through altavista and yahoo, but came up empty. :-( xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com However, if you're tired of the Lesser of N evils, Cthulu's export policy is that you can't escape anyway, and your puny mortal lives will be absorbed along with his morning coffee. Your encryption technology is futile against the Elder Gods, and the arcane formulas in the Cyphernomicon of that mad physicist Tim The Enchanter may summon spirits from the vasty deep, but no secrets are safe from Nyarla-S-Ahothep who knows all and sees all. Bill Stewart From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 17:50:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26741 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA26695 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA03257 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA04193; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:11:41 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960904162519.00802270@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 09:25:19 -0700 To: Todd Day From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: list command/.sigs Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:43 AM 9/4/96 -0700, Todd Day wrote: >If someone subscr*bes from a machine like >apple.fruit.com but their simple email address is user@fruit.com, often >their From: address will be user@apple.fruit.com and the automated packages >will sign them up at that address. [...] The user might even >try unsubbing user@fruit.com, but of course, that will fail too. What >recourse for the user? Grab the user list, figure out which address they >got subscribed as, and try again. This is what the majordomo 'which' command is for. The version of Majordomo that I'm running has the 'who' command completely disabled. The owner can get at the subscriber list if they need to -- using the web and their password -- but nobody else can get it. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Milestone NOW! idyllmtn.com/~kynn/icons.html From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 17:53:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26748 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA26712 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA03249 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA04200 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:11:45 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960904162522.007593c4@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 09:25:22 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Signature Line Policies?? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:23 AM 9/4/96 -0700, Cyndi Norman wrote: >Alan, thanks for putting the problem so sucintly. I deal with it by >banning all advertisment (well, I have a file on the webpage stating >exactly what I mean by that) and I make it clear that .sigs count as >advertising. When I subscribe people, I comment on their .sigs if I think >they will be a problem and tell them they are welcome to read posts if they >are a commercial entity but that ads are not allowed should they choose to >post. The HTML Writers Guild bans commercial advertisements but does allow members to do whatever they like in their signature files. If, however, a list user has an excessively long sig, they get contacted by a friendly List Guide who tries to get them to change. --Kynn Bartlett, Mailing List Manager, HTML Writers Guild -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Milestone NOW! idyllmtn.com/~kynn/icons.html From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 17:53:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA25886 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id QAA25788 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA25328 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA18209; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:07:09 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960902162048.00824684@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 09:20:48 -0700 To: Brad Knowles From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: raphael@harborside.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:35 AM 8/30/96 -0400, Brad Knowles wrote: >Folks, > This guy apparently just junkmailed a large number of >Role-Playing Game related mailing lists, including one I maintain. >He went so far as to subscribe just long enough to junkmail everyone, >and then unsubscribed. Brad, apart from the fact that it would have been polite if he'd mailed owner- first, why's it necessarily junk mail? It's a little rude, but from the message (which I quoted below), it seems like it would be semi-on-topic for your lists. In other words, while it's probably not a cool thing he did, it seems a bit over-reactionary to start talking about locking out his site and blacklisting him via list-managers. (FWIW, I also run an RPG mailing list.) >--- begin forwarded text > >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:49:38 -0800 >To: palladium-frpg@skuld.gweep.net >From: raphael@harborside.com (James West) >Subject: The EMRoP needs YOU! >Precedence: bulk > >Hi folks, I've created a service called the E-Mail Role-Playing (EMRoP) >Network that provides links to RPG sites and most importantly has a growing >group of GMs running PBEM games through it. As soon as I get more GMs and >players it'll be real cool, but right now I only have a handful of both. >So, I'm looking for people who want to either play or dedicate some time to >running a game or two through my online service. If you're interested, >please let me know and if you know anyone that might be, please give them >my e-mail address and ask them to e-mail me. Thanks again. > > James the Charmer > (www.harborside.com/home/r/raphael) > >--- end forwarded text -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Milestone NOW! idyllmtn.com/~kynn/icons.html From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 17:57:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26510 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA26502 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id GAA22286 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 06:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id IAA30122; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:14:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199609041314.IAA30122@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: list command/.sigs To: today@di.com (Todd Day) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:14:49 -0500 (CDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <3.0b15.32.19960904024306.00b7e818@mail.di.com> from "Todd Day" at Sep 4, 96 02:43:10 am From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Todd Day said... | |I used to run with open lists. Got burned by spammers. Now I have to deal |with tracking down these unsubscribe (and address change) cases myself. |That's why you'll find list managers bitter over crap caused by these email |spammers. You go out of your way to do a service for the net to pay back |the institution that has given you so much, and some johnny-come-lately |appears and screws it all up for you - making you into the computer |security nazi you always loathed as an undergraduate. Actually, I loathe the spammers as much as anyone. My only point is that there are actually legitimate reasons for an outsider to run a lists command. I contend that doing that is not a wrong, illegal, sinful, immoral or fattening act in and of itself. It's why you do it and what you do with it that determines this. And I would have no problem with first time spammers being put in the stocks, publicly, for a week or so, on a diet of bread and water. Further acts of spam should be subject to much, much stiffer penalties. And if anyone cares, obnoxious telephone solicitors would receive the same fate If I Ran The Justice System (polite ones who accept your "no", don't call at dinnertime, and don't call back would go free). |[Warning, strong opinions ahead] | |Personally, I've always considered .sigs to be the appendix of the |electronic letter body - perhaps useful early in its evolution, but |completely useless today (possibly poisonous :-) I mean, if I want your |address or phone number, I'll just email you for it. Well, an email address is sometimes useful, because there are *still* mailers and gateways and list software and whatnot that mangle the return addresses. And a phone number/address can be handy if someone is on a link thet gets mail infrequently, or doesn't sit in front of a screen with a mail app or biff running all the time. |Or, hey, I don't |think I've ever seen *that* clever quote from (insert science fiction film |or book or tv series) in all my ten years of reading USENET! Hell, one of |my workmates still uses that "To err is human... to really screw things up |requires a computer" quote in his .sig. Even the cheez gift industry |stopped using that one - the last coffee mug I saw with that quote actually |used greenbar paper with the font found at the bottom of checks! And herein lies the real use of .sigs - they tell you something about the person. Your workmate, for instance, either has a severely devolved sense of humor, or really doesn't "get" computers. (Or maybe it's caraso, and that's just newbie bait.) -Miles, no .sig most of the time From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 20:58:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA25693 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 20:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postie.das.gov.au (postie.das.gov.au [147.211.53.231]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Mil