From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 1 01:01:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA17850 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id AAA17823 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.atlas.co.uk (roadrunner.atlas.co.uk [193.131.167.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA07205; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [193.132.228.81] ([193.132.228.80]) by mailhost.atlas.co.uk (4.1/PIPEX simple 1.9) id AA17667; Mon, 30 Sep 96 20:38:41 BST X-Sender: rickreed@poseidon.atlas.co.uk Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 20:24:01 +0100 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-docs@greatcircle.com From: Rick Reed TSE Subject: Getting archiving and disgesting to work Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have not been able to work out from the documentation how to get archiving and digesting to work. Nothing seems to happen with the list I have set up. The subscribe, unsubscribe, config etc. functions all seem to work fine. I think I have set up the subdirectories for Digest and Archive correctly with the correct priviledges (though I dont often use (BSD) Unix - my host system, a virtual server at Iserver.com). As far as I can determine I have the latest version of majordomo. I have check the FAQ file, the ORA document, lisa6.ps and the list-owner-info, but I'm stumped (or stupid or both). Can someone give me some advice on: what to check? what I may be doing wrong? what I may not have done? Many thanks - sorry to bother you owner-sdlnews@sdl-forum.org alias -- Rick Reed, TSE Limited 13 Weston House, 18-22 Church Street Lutterworth Leicestershire LE17 4AW United Kingdom Tel +44 14 55 55 96 55; Fax +44 14 55 55 96 58 (**Jul/96**) email: rickreed@tseng.co.uk http://www.tseng.co.uk ftp://ftp.tseng.co.uk/tseng/ From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 1 01:21:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA18398 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id AAA17611 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imc.org (imc.org [165.227.249.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA10901 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [165.227.113.247] (phoffman.sc.scruznet.com [165.227.113.247]) by imc.org (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11201 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:43:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: paulh@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199609292205.PAA23391@ilinx.ilinx.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:44:41 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: spam list exists -- stop the spam alerts!! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >OK. Since there is a "spam list" can we officially ban the "spam alert" >postings to List-Managers?? Please?? I want to participate in a list >about running lists without all the spam alerts. Spam alerts seem to have >overtaken the discussions on this fine (was and could be) list. I'll second this. That's the wonder of the Internet: if there is already a list on a side-topic, you can subscribe to it and keep the original topic more narrowly defined. SPAM-L is a bit high-traffic, but it does cover the topic well. --Paul Hoffman --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 1 07:26:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA29109 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 07:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mhs.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca (email.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca [206.75.224.67]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA29085 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 07:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tcns36.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca by mhs.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca via Connect2-SMTP 4.00 (00001E2); Tue, 1 Oct 96 08:21:26 -0700 Message-ID: <325136F5.2A51@city.grande-prairie.ab.ca> Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 08:21:25 -0700 From: Chet Meek Organization: City of Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DWalheim@aol.com CC: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Fewer Spam Alerts -- Keeping Trends/Summaries, etc? References: <960930092024_297070925@emout05.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk List Managers: DWalheim@aol.com wrote: > > Can we have a consensus?? > > I'm with you -- I'd much rather talk about list maintenance. > I also think we could do with fewer spam alerts of the repetitious variety complained about earlier. I would like to hear once in a while, however, about the trends of current spamming techniques, a summary of "watch-outs," changes in the character of mailing list conventions, etc., all of which emerge from the sum of the posts being censured. Is there a middle ground that would not also eliminate the foregoing from this list? - Chet ---[ Chet Meek ]--[ E-mail: cmeek@city.grande-prairie.ab.ca ]--- City of Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada Voice: 403+538-0443 1 9 9 7 -- Forest Capital of Canada Fax: 403+539-1056 World-Wide Web: http://www.ccinet.ab.ca/city-of-gp/homepage.html ---[ Strategic and Business Planning in a Municipal Setting ]--- The CyberCity Initiative: readying GP for the 'Information Age' From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 1 12:26:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA11272 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 12:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outlawnet.com ([204.245.248.202]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA11243 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 12:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.245.248.250] (liv26.outlawnet.com [204.245.248.250]) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA07992 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 12:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 12:09:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: garyb@outlawnet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: garyb@fxt.com (Gary Bickford) Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #210 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Yeah, and AOL has even turned off verification of RCPT-TO. It really >sucks, because it means I get a separate error report from AOL. Most >other sites report the error at once, and my local sendmail can then >give me one short, precise (well, sort of) report per message sent to >my mailing list. A distantly-related note - I also run several NetForums (web-based threaded discussion - http://www.biostat.wisc.edu/netforum, if I recall) - This package used to have an option to set verification of posters using sendmail, but because AOL & others disabled this, folks on AOL couldn't use the forum if it was turned on. end | Gary Bickford --+-- FXT Corp. / Informat Communications | 541-923-3060 | fax 541-923-5537 From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 1 18:56:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA03693 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 18:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.213.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA03666 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 18:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brian@localhost) by ilinx.ilinx.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id SAA20065; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 18:55:54 -0700 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199610020155.SAA20065@ilinx.ilinx.com> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 18:55:54 -0700 (PDT) To: paulh@imc.org Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re[2]: spam list exists -- stop the spam alerts!! In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3-960829-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of Paul Hoffman on scroll > >OK. Since there is a "spam list" can we officially ban the "spam alert" > >postings to List-Managers?? Please?? I want to participate in a list > >about running lists without all the spam alerts. Spam alerts seem to > have > >overtaken the discussions on this fine (was and could be) list. > > I'll second this. That's the wonder of the Internet: if there is already > a > list on a side-topic, you can subscribe to it and keep the original topic > more narrowly defined. > > SPAM-L is a bit high-traffic, but it does cover the topic well. Yeah, I guess that's my point. Let's not have the SPAM-L overflow spill into here. I am with others about the spam and anti-spam technologies as they apply to mailing-list moderation being relevent here but all the spam alerts?? Please. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 2 11:56:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA00948 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 2 Oct 1996 11:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home.samurai.com (home.samurai.com [205.207.28.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA00910 for ; Wed, 2 Oct 1996 11:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bryanf@localhost) by home.samurai.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) id OAA07436 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 2 Oct 1996 14:48:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Bryan Fullerton Message-Id: <199610021848.OAA07436@home.samurai.com> Subject: ms exchange attachments To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 14:48:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm trying to find a good FAQ - ideally step by step instructions - to tell people how to turn off those #*^@& attachments that MS Exchange loves to put on the end of messages (winmail.dat). Does anyone know of a good FAQ or have one they can send me about it? Thanks, Bryan From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 3 00:11:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA11577 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 3 Oct 1996 00:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shooter.bluemarble.net (shooter.bluemarble.net [199.18.207.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id AAA11570 for ; Thu, 3 Oct 1996 00:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (edit@localhost) by shooter.bluemarble.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA09526 for ; Thu, 3 Oct 1996 02:00:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 02:00:00 -0500 (EST) From: Paul E Kayak To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Receiving 2 copies per post Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Why, on certain lists I read do I (still an amateur asking this) receive two copies of a post? From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 6 21:11:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA04755 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 6 Oct 1996 21:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunspot.tiac.net (sunspot.tiac.net [199.0.65.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA04737 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 1996 21:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stanr@localhost) by sunspot.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.6.6.Beta9) id AAA15022; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 00:01:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Stan Ryckman Message-Id: <199610070401.AAA15022@sunspot.tiac.net> Subject: idiotic gateway bounces -- common? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 00:01:22 -0400 (EDT) Organization: Amber & Sneakers Fan Club X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi. I posted tonight to a mailing list, and got a bounce from a gateway. Not only does this mean I (as a poster) might be highly confused, but it also means the list owner *won't* get the bounce, so the problem rates to persist (unless the list-owner posts). Is this a common problem? What can be done? (I already mailed the "Reply-To:" address below; anything else I can do?) My guess is their software only looks at the RFC822 headers and not at the SMTP envelope. Thanks, Stan Ryckman (stanr@tiac.net) Here's the surviving text from my post to boston-b5-chat and the bounce back to me (remember, in this case, I'm a poster, not the list owner): |From bcsmac.org!Gateway@pioneer.ci.net Sun Oct 6 23:03:26 1996 |Received: from wizard.pn.com (wizard.pn.com [204.96.36.2]) by sunspot.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.6.6.Beta9) with ESMTP id XAA09400 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 1996 23:03:25 -0400 (EDT) |Received: from pioneer.ci.net (pioneer.ci.net [205.136.67.65]) by wizard.pn.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id XAA32635 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 1996 23:03:24 -0400 |Received: from bcsmac.org (Ubcsmac@localhost) by pioneer.ci.net (8.8.0/8.8.0) with UUCP id XAA29572 for stanr@sunspot.tiac.net; Sun, 6 Oct 1996 23:01:54 -0400 |X-Authentication-Warning: pioneer.ci.net: Ubcsmac set sender to pioneer.ci.net!bcsmac.org!Gateway using -f |From: Gateway@bcsmac.org (Gateway) |Reply-To: Gateway@bcsmac.org |To: stanr@sunspot.tiac.net |Subject: NDN: Re: Boston Globe TV Week |Date: 07 Oct 1996 02:45:07 GMT |Message-Id: <754515966.70047910@bcsmac.org> | |Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to: | |Alex V. Fairley,BCS Mac (The name was not found at the remote site. Check |that the name has been entered correctly.) | From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 7 06:43:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA12650 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 06:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id GAA12642 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 06:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 9:38:15 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: Stan Ryckman , list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: idiotic gateway bounces -- common? Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9610070938.aa10200@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I posted tonight to a mailing list, and got a bounce from a gateway. >Not only does this mean I (as a poster) might be highly confused, >but it also means the list owner *won't* get the bounce, so the >problem rates to persist (unless the list-owner posts). Yep. >|From: Gateway@bcsmac.org (Gateway) >|Reply-To: Gateway@bcsmac.org >|To: stanr@sunspot.tiac.net >|Subject: NDN: Re: Boston Globe TV Week >|Date: 07 Oct 1996 02:45:07 GMT >|Message-Id: <754515966.70047910@bcsmac.org> >| >|Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to: >| >|Alex V. Fairley,BCS Mac (The name was not found at the remote site. Check >|that the name has been entered correctly.) Snip the following and sent it to postmaster@ (assuming that address works, or else the SOA for that domain - he won't want it, but if he's dishing up DNS for them, he oughtta know who runs the site). --------------------------------------------- The Dreaded NDN --------------- People who run mailing lists, and even some who simply post to Usenet, have had messages bounce back to them with "NDN" in the Subject line. These bounces come from FirstClass BBSes running the PostalUnion UUCP gateway, and usually stem from an incorrect setup. If you are the sysop of a FirstClass board using PostalUnion, you can prevent these bounces, according to Maury Markowitz of SoftArc, makers of FirstClass. He suggests the following four preventative measures (and if you could send these tips to your FirstClass sysop, those of us who get these bounces will thank you!): * Make sure you have a conference named "JunkNews". * Make sure you have a user or mailing list named "Postmaster". * Make sure you set the expiry dates correctly - one or two days is a good number. * Make sure that you go to EVERY conference that's on the Internet and get Permissions. Make sure that the FIRST line of the WHO field reads "Internet" and "Contributor". Dreaded NDN Revisited --------------------- by Mark H. Anbinder, News Editor -- mha@baka.ithaca.ny.us Technical Support Coordinator, BAKA Computers Although Maury Markowitz's article on avoiding non-delivery notices (NDNs) on FirstClass systems (see TidBITS #199_) has some useful suggestions, a bit more explanation might be in order so that FirstClass administrators can make educated decisions on what's right for their systems. * Expiry dates should be set such that the contents of a conference or folder won't be unwieldy to the new user, but more importantly so that the conference won't overflow. FirstClass has a limit of 1,024 items in a single conference, so if a mailing list or USENET newsgroup carries heavy traffic, it will fill up quickly, and messages beyond the limit will be rewarded with NDNs sent to the confused message senders. Allowing busy newsgroups' messages to expire in a couple of days is appropriate. For low- traffic mailing lists such as the TidBITS distribution list, an expiry length of weeks or months is not unreasonable. * Placing "Internet" and "Contributor" on the first line of the Permissions screen for an Internet conference is a good generalization, but won't be suitable for every system. If your conferences, by default, allow unrestricted message posting, that's plenty. If you wish to restrict posting at all, though, your Internet gateway must indeed have posting privileges explicitly assigned, and of course if your Internet gateway has a name other than "Internet" you must use the correct name. The permission list must go from highest privileges to lowest or no privileges. * If a message comes to a FirstClass server from another FirstClass server that received it from the Internet, both the FirstClass gateway and the local Internet gateway (if the destination server has one) need posting privileges. * Do indeed make sure you have a conference named "JunkNews" if you are using one of the PostalUnion gateways from Information Electronics. If you are using another gateway product, follow its instructions to accommodate incoming USENET news articles that have no place to go. * Regardless of your gateway software, you should have a user, mailing list, or conference named "Postmaster" that receives messages sent to that address at your Internet site. (This is a network standard address for sending error reports or administrative messages to a site.) --------------------------------------------- Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 7 20:26:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA28000 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 19:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prawn.fishy.net (flounder.fishy.net [206.156.56.34]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA27847; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 19:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sturgeon.fishy.net (sturgeon.fishy.net [172.16.1.3]) by prawn.fishy.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA22550; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 22:48:28 -0400 Received: (from bonnie@localhost) by sturgeon.fishy.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id WAA06946; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 22:48:29 -0400 From: Bonnie Message-Id: <199610080248.WAA06946@sturgeon.fishy.net> Subject: Problems with EMC for Prodigy To: Majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 22:48:28 -0400 (EDT) Cc: majordomo-owner@listesrv.prodigy.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This information is about problems some Prodigy users have sending admin commands to Majordomo. (Confirmed for MD version 1.93 only.) Prodigy users may be using one or more clients: - EMC (Email Connection) for Windows (offline client) - Windows mail manager (regular mail client) - NAPLPS mail client for DOS and Mac users only - pop-up mail window in the Web browser (Windows users only). Summary: Since the last upgrade to EMC, messages sent via this client contain two "From:" lines for many users. This results in an "unknown error 2" from majordomo for admin commands, and may also cause incorrect bounces on lists with "restrict_post" set to list members. Why? EMC is adding a "From:" line with the user's Prodigy ID (7 characters, ABCD12A, where the first four are alpha, next two numeric, and the last letter is A-F). This is the problem. The mail gateway that all Prodigy mail passes through also adds a "From:" line, containing the Prodigy member's NetName, if they have one. NetNames (no longer available) are a customized identity (20 char max.) for Prodigy members, and should be the preferred address for subscribing Prodigy members if it is available. What you should do if this happens to your list: For our lists, we are recommending that all users and list owners use our Web/mailing list gateway. All EMC users are Windows users and do have access to the Web via Prodigy's Web Browser, which supports forms (and frames and tables), so if you have a list subscription form, please refer them to it. If not, please either sub/unsub them manually, or ask them to use the online mail client until they receive a software update for EMC. EMC is a third-party mail product provided to Prodigy by ConnectSoft. This bug is currently being worked on. Please be patient with these Prodigy users. Thank you, Bonnie Scott Prodigy Services Corp. This is an example of the bounce generated by majordomo: Forwarded message: > From root Mon Oct 7 22:01:57 1996 > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 07:40:03 -0400 > From: Mail Delivery Subsystem > Subject: Returned mail: unknown mailer error 2 > Message-Id: <199610061140.HAA20056@listserv.prodigy.com> > To: majordomo-owner@listserv.prodigy.com > Sender: bonnie@staff.prodigy.com > > The original message was received at Sun, 6 Oct 1996 07:38:40 -0400 > from pimaia2y.prodigy.com [198.83.18.95] > > ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- > "|/majordomo/majordomo/wrapper majordomo" (unrecoverable error) > (expanded from: ) > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > Message delivered to mailing list > 554 "|/majordomo/majordomo/wrapper majordomo"... unknown mailer error 2 > > ----- Original message follows ----- > Return-Path: lee_moulton@prodigy.com > Received: from pimaia2y.prodigy.com (pimaia2y.prodigy.com [198.83.18.95]) by listserv.prodigy.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA20053 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 1996 07:38:40 -0400 > Received: from mime2.prodigy.com ([192.168.253.26]) by pimaia2y.prodigy.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA36560 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 1996 07:33:07 -0400 > Received: (from root@localhost) by mime2.prodigy.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id HAA21994 for majordomo@listserv.prodigy.com; Sun, 6 Oct 1996 07:31:31 -0400 > Message-Id: <199610061131.HAA21994@mime2.prodigy.com> > X-Mailer: Prodigy Internet GW(v0.9beta) - ae02dm02sc06 > From: lee_moulton@prodigy.com (MR LEE MOULTON) > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 07:31:31, -0500 > To: majordomo@listserv.prodigy.com > Date: 06 Oct 96 > From: KKWK82C@prodigy.com > To: majordomo@listserv.prodigy.com > Subject: subscribe comedy > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > -- [ From: Lee Moulton * EMC.Ver #2.5.1 ] -- > > subscribe comedy > From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 8 07:57:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA16866 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 07:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id HAA16787 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 07:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1); Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:50:25 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:50:27 -0500 To: Bonnie From: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Subject: Re: Problems with EMC for Prodigy Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 10:48 PM 10/7/96, Bonnie said: >This information is about problems some Prodigy users have sending >admin commands to Majordomo. (Confirmed for MD version 1.93 only.) ::snip:: >EMC is a third-party mail product provided to Prodigy by ConnectSoft. ::snip:: >This is an example of the bounce generated by majordomo: ::snip:: >> To: majordomo@listserv.prodigy.com >> Subject: subscribe comedy >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> -- [ From: Lee Moulton * EMC.Ver #2.5.1 ] -- >> >> subscribe comedy Bonnie, I've had problems with people using EMC mailers, as EMC *insists* on inserting their little EMC tag at the TOP of the message, as shown above. This is the *default* configuration for EMC mailers (last I spoke with them), and it really flies in the face of 'Net convention; as a result, many list servers cannot process mail from users of EMC mailers, as the tag line generates an error when processing the request, and further processing is halted. Those people using EMC mail must turn off the tag "feature" when sending requests to servers. >From the message quoted above, it appears that EMC mailers are still doing this. I discussed this issue with EMC back when HumourNet was still being run on a small local server. Their response was that people will simply have to learn how list servers work, and thus learn that they must turn off the tag "feature" when communicating with automated mail-based servers. This is ludicrous, and it's a disservice to those who purchase/use EMC mailers. We all know how difficult it is to educate people on simply *where to send their messages* (list address vs. server address); expecting to educate them on how servers process requests and when/how to turn off the EMC tag line is unrealistic in the majority of cases. When I tried to tell EMC that they were expecting a little too much from the average Internetter, they stopped answering my mail. :-) So, the questions: Is this still the [default] case with EMC mailers? Is this problem widespread -- has anyone else noticed this problem on his/her server? Has anyone else tried to discuss the issue with EMC? (Bonnie, from one of your statements above, it appears that you might be in a little better bargaining position where EMC is concerned. :-) Is this actually perceived (or even recognized) as a problem by anyone, or am I simply overreacting? - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (with only one "u") to listproc2@bgu.edu -- From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 8 11:58:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA23511 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 11:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garcon.unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA23492 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 11:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chip@localhost) by garcon.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA28775; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:46:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199610081846.NAA28775@garcon.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Problems with EMC for Prodigy To: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:46:33 -0500 (CDT) Cc: bonnie@staff.prodigy.com (Bonnie), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Vince Sabio" at Oct 08, 1996 10:50:27 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a10] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Vince Sabio writes: > I've had problems with people using EMC mailers, as EMC *insists* on > inserting their little EMC tag at the TOP of the message, as shown > above. Those tags are evil ... whether they be at the top, bottom, or middle. A mailer should not corrupt user's data. If it wants to insert a usless vanity line, an X-Mailer header is acceptable. Personally, I think it's a feature that people using such a rude program cannot get onto mailing lists. :-) -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development * Unix system programming/support * Internet * test/ctrl/comm systems URL: http://www.unicom.com/ * 4868D8BE10C86BDE 6017000BA783998E From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 8 16:06:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA12153 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bolis.com (bolis.com [204.153.195.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA12119 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: Received: from hock.bolis.com (root@hock.bolis.com [199.165.142.10]) by bolis.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA29057; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:31:09 -0700 Received: by hock.bolis.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0vAlJ0-000G03C; Tue, 8 Oct 96 16:11 PDT Message-Id: From: Alan Millar Subject: Re: Problems with EMC for Prodigy To: chip@unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 16:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199610081846.NAA28775@garcon.unicom.com> from "Chip Rosenthal" at Oct 8, 96 01:46:33 pm Reply-to: Alan Millar X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Verily didst Chip Rosenthal sayeth: > > Vince Sabio writes: > > I've had problems with people using EMC mailers, as EMC *insists* on > > inserting their little EMC tag at the TOP of the message, as shown > > above. > > Those tags are evil ... whether they be at the top, bottom, or middle. > Personally, I think it's a feature that people using such a rude > program cannot get onto mailing lists. :-) I agree. However, I had a very irate list subscriber who go on through a subscription form on the web page, but then tried to get off by sending a message to Majordomo from their wacky EMC mailer. They went insane when they couldn't get off the list. Another good reason that I'm looking forward to the subscription confirmation feature in the next version of majordomo :-) - Alan ---- Alan Millar E-Mail: amillar@bolis.com System Administrator Web: http://www.bolis.com/ The skill of accurate perception is called cynicism by those who don't possess it. From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 8 18:12:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA02582 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 17:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garcon.unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA02553 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 17:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chip@localhost) by garcon.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA14416; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 19:59:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199610090059.TAA14416@garcon.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Problems with EMC for Prodigy To: AMillar@bolis.com Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 19:59:43 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Alan Millar" at Oct 08, 1996 04:11:18 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a10] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan Millar writes: > I agree. However, I had a very irate list subscriber who go on through > a subscription form on the web page OK ... now we are starting to careen back on-topic. :-) I would strongly advocate that everybody who has a web-based list signup form TURN IT OFF NOW! A web-based form ensures that the most incompetent members of the Internet have access to your list. Personally, I *demand* that all my list members have a minimum level of proficiency in email before they are welcome. Unlesss they do, there is no way they can be a useful contributor to the list, and a high probability they will be a problem. This isn't some pissy elitist club attitude. If they aren't skilled in email, they simply aren't ready to participate. If you want members who can interact with your list manager (regardless of whether it is automated or human), then *insist* they do so in order to get on the list. I know that's no guarantee they'll remember to use the -REQUEST address six months later, but at least you've weeded out the ones who are immune to the notion of -REQUEST addresses. A web-based form will bring you a lot of subscribes. Many of whom you don't want. "Kewl. *drool* *drool* A form for free stuff! *drool* *drool* I think I'll fill it out." In any event, this is my experience. Your mileage may vary. -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development * Unix system programming/support * Internet * test/ctrl/comm systems URL: http://www.unicom.com/ * 4868D8BE10C86BDE 6017000BA783998E From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 9 06:44:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA11777 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 9 Oct 1996 06:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcusa01.ecunet.org (pcusa01.ecunet.org [206.115.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id GAA11746 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 1996 06:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Problems with EMC for Prodigy To: Chip Rosenthal Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 09:02:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Merrill Cook Cc: AMillar@bolis.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199610090059.TAA14416@garcon.unicom.com> from "Chip Rosenthal" at Oct 8, 96 07:59:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9610090902.aa18583@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From Chip Rosenthal: > > I would strongly advocate that everybody who has a web-based > list signup form TURN IT OFF NOW! > > A web-based form ensures that the most incompetent members of the > Internet have access to your list. Personally, I *demand* that > all my list members have a minimum level of proficiency in email > before they are welcome. Unlesss they do, there is no way they > can be a useful contributor to the list, and a high probability > they will be a problem. This isn't some pissy elitist club attitude. > If they aren't skilled in email, they simply aren't ready to > participate. My recent experience tends to confirm this. People were entering their own addresses, only with lots of typos; they were entering other addresses, without the owner's permission; and there were a lot of situations where the address they entered worked but differed enough from the address on their mailer that restrict_post and unsubscribe didn't work. -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org or MERRILL COOK on Ecunet/PresbyNet http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa.html -+- From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 9 16:46:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA05475 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 9 Oct 1996 15:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu ([128.52.46.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA29886 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 1996 15:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id SAA25901; Wed, 9 Oct 1996 18:28:14 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 18:28:14 -0400 From: "Leonard H. Tower Jr." Message-Id: <199610092228.SAA25901@nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: chip@unicom.com CC: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil, bonnie@staff.prodigy.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199610081846.NAA28775@garcon.unicom.com> "chip@unicom.com" Reply-To: tower@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu Organization: Project GNU, Free Software Foundation, 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA +1-617-542-5942 Home: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA 02143, USA +1-617-623-7739 URL: http://www.ai.mit.edu/~tower/home.html Subject: Problems with EMC for Prodigy Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I've had problems with people using EMC mailers, as EMC *insists* on > inserting their little EMC tag at the TOP of the message, as shown > above. They should just make their tag part of the header, by visually separating it with a blank line containing white space. They also need to have the line before the white space be a legal header starter. For example, with "_" standing in for a space: To:_majordomo@listserv.prodigy.com Date:_06_Oct_96 From:_KKWK82C@prodigy.com To:_majordomo@listserv.prodigy.com Subject:_subscribe_comedy MIME-Version:_1.0 Content-type:_text/plain;_charset=us-ascii X-EMC-ID:_ _ --_[_From:_Lee_Moulton_*_EMC.Ver_#2.5.1_]_-- subscribe_comedy RFC822 states clearer that a totally blank line, that is no characters between a pair of CR/LFs, separate the header from the text. best -len From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 9 17:27:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA15031 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 9 Oct 1996 17:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA15000 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 1996 17:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207.33.130.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [207.33.130.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) with SMTP id RAA19913; Wed, 9 Oct 1996 17:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <325C3E49.4582@postmodern.com> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 17:07:40 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tower@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu CC: chip@unicom.com, wavelet@colossus.arl.mil, bonnie@staff.prodigy.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Problems with EMC for Prodigy References: <199610092228.SAA25901@nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Leonard H. Tower Jr. wrote: > > > I've had problems with people using EMC mailers, as EMC *insists* on > > inserting their little EMC tag at the TOP of the message, as shown > > above. > > They should just make their tag part of the header, by visually > separating it with a blank line containing white space. They also > need to have the line before the white space be a legal header > starter. For example, with "_" standing in for a space: > [etc.] Len, don't take this the wrong way, but that's a *hideous* kludge! I don't understand why EMC feels the need to invade the body of a message with a tagline that should properly be part of the header (if it exists at all). I don't have any compunctions about simply denying list service to users who can't produce a simple, correctly-formatted subscription request or list message that doesn't contain extraneous crud (such as this tagline or the MIME application/ms-tnef crud). There are alternatives out there; unfortunately Prodigy chose unwisely in picking an Internet mail client. The market will sort this out, for sure. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 11 15:13:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA24706 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 11 Oct 1996 14:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA24625 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 1996 14:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id OAA20822; Fri, 11 Oct 1996 14:47:25 -0700 Received: from flounder.fishy.net(206.156.56.34) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma020817; Fri Oct 11 14:47:16 1996 Received: from sturgeon.fishy.net (sturgeon.fishy.net [172.16.1.3]) by prawn.fishy.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA22294; Fri, 11 Oct 1996 17:44:32 -0400 Received: (from bonnie@localhost) by sturgeon.fishy.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id RAA47870; Fri, 11 Oct 1996 17:44:33 -0400 From: Bonnie Message-Id: <199610112144.RAA47870@sturgeon.fishy.net> Subject: Re: Problems with EMC for Prodigy To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 17:44:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thank you all for your feedback. I had managed to overlook that nasty "--" "header" all this time. We knew list managers needed to turn off headers, but I guess it never occurred to us that admin requests from users would simply disappear... doh! Vince said: >Has anyone else tried to discuss the issue with EMC? (Bonnie, from one of >your statements above, it appears that you might be in a little better >bargaining position where EMC is concerned. :-) I have forwarded all of the messages I got to the three people in Prodigy who have the best chance of getting EMC to listen. Cross your fingers! Chip said: >If it wants to insert a usless vanity line, an X-Mailer header is acceptable. That's what I'd like to see, too. Chip (again): >I would strongly advocate that everybody who has a web-based >list signup form TURN IT OFF NOW! >A web-based form ensures that the most incompetent members of the >Internet have access to your list. ...snip... >If you want members who can interact with your list manager >(regardless of whether it is automated or human), then *insist* >they do so in order to get on the list. I know that's no >guarantee they'll remember to use the -REQUEST address six >months later, One comment: We NEVER get subscribe requests sent to the mailing list from the Web form. ;-> To protect the rest of the Internet community, our Web mailto scripts will only send mail to Prodigy domains. Michael said: >I don't have any compunctions about simply denying list service to users >who can't produce a simple, correctly-formatted subscription request or >list message that doesn't contain extraneous crud Well, they (the most incompetent members of the Internet, to quote Chip) are Prodigy's market. :) Seriously, user education--raising the bar, if you will-- is definitely our business. Someone's got to do it. We were all there once. (True confession: for me, it was in 1991 on a VAX account.) We have a majordomo glossary at http://goodstuff.prodigy.com/Lists/glossary.htm that you are free to point people to, and, inspired by this thread, I am planning a "E-mail Client Help" section on the Web server. There are only a few screen prints up there now, but stay tuned to http://198.83.18.43/email_help/ I think I can handle tips for EMC, Prodigy Classic, Eudora for Windows, and Netscape (various versions for Windows). If anyone has any tips they've ever had to repeat for ... let's all say it together ... brain-dead users with brain-dead mail clients , let me know and I'll add it to the Web site. (Screen prints appreciated, but send URLs, not gifs.) I know MS mail has a few quirks, and I would _especially_ appreciate a quick summary of how to turn all the formatting garbage off. Bonnie Scott Prodigy Services Corporation elm rules! vi rules! From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 12 08:12:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA16667 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 12 Oct 1996 08:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itchy.mindspring.com (itchy.mindspring.com [204.180.128.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA16659 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 1996 08:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tracey.mindspring.com (user-168-121-55-2.dialup.mindspring.com [168.121.55.2]) by itchy.mindspring.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA11636 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 1996 11:00:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961012150052.006adc68@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: tracey@pop.mindspring.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 10:00:52 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Tracey McCartney Subject: Restricted post Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Do any of you running a majordomo list know if there's an option to allow only subscribed members to post, and if so how to set it? Thanks... Tracey MCartney Enforcement Coordinator Central Alabama Fair Housing Center tracey@mindspring.com fair_housing-owner@majordomo.pobox.com From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 12 11:27:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA28727 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 12 Oct 1996 11:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.gnofn.org (www.gnofn.org [199.181.71.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA28702 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 1996 11:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (cjf01@localhost) by www.gnofn.org (8.7.Beta.10/8.7.Beta.10) with SMTP id NAA19079; Sat, 12 Oct 1996 13:20:33 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 13:20:33 -0500 (CDT) From: "Your friend at:" To: Tracey McCartney cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Restricted post In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961012150052.006adc68@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Shouldn't you have received instructions on how to adjust your config file? ****************************************************************************** "The person who is not disturbed by happiness and distress and is steady in both is certainly eligible for liberation." Bhagavad gita as it is 2.15 ****************************************************************************** On Sat, 12 Oct 1996, Tracey McCartney wrote: > Do any of you running a majordomo list know if there's an option to allow > only subscribed members to post, and if so how to set it? > > Thanks... > > Tracey MCartney > Enforcement Coordinator > Central Alabama Fair Housing Center > tracey@mindspring.com > fair_housing-owner@majordomo.pobox.com > > Hi! I would like to introduce myself. I was born 12/17/57 in New Orleans, Louisiana and still live near New Orleans. I currently do volunteer work with the New Orleans freenet and am developing a global community service organization. You can check our website at (http://www.gnofn.org/~oxoasis). Thank you for your patience and if I can be of any assistance please let me know. Sincerely, Christopher From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 14 16:42:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA22456 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id QAA22428 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA13064; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 18:40:58 -0500 (CDT) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Web-based archives considered harmful? From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 14 Oct 1996 18:40:57 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 34 X-Mailer: Red Gnus v0.50/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk First I had the problems with users wanting to be removed from my archives because of their easy availability. Now I have been chastised because I make too much available. Basically, I received a complaint that because I make the sum total of my list archives available on the web, it is impossible to search for useful information because my archive pages keep popping up. For instance, a search for "fvwm" (a UNIX window manager whose mailing lists I host) will (at some search engines) reveal a pile of hits to individual messages while the main page is buried. Essentially, I was accused of "polluting the indexes," especially with old messages which I make available. My reply was "too bad." I make my archives publicly available; anyone can search them. I also have a homebrew front end search engine based on Glimpse which allows things like limiting by date. Why should I care if some over-zealous spider went through my entire archives and added them to its index? It is they who aren't serving their customers well by doing this; my search engine works fine. Yes, I know about robot exclusion, but why should I have to? Any comments? I will say that the stupid indexers have led to somewhat of an increase of completely clueless email to me. People have assumed that I work for some talk show host called Jerry Springer (who was the topic of a short discussion on one of my mailing lists), that I'm a photographer/marketing agent for Playgirl (because it was mentioned in a couple of messages on my list), that I am a member of the band that one of my lists is about, etc. This I take in stride, as the comic relief is welcome. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 14 17:27:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26974 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slug.swcp.com (slug.swcp.com [198.59.115.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA26896 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by slug.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id SAA01096 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 18:18:30 -0600 Message-Id: <199610150018.SAA01096@slug.swcp.com> Subject: Web-based archives considered harmful? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 18:18:29 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Why should I care if some over-zealous spider went through my entire > archives and added them to its index? It is they who aren't serving > their customers well by doing this; my search engine works fine. > > Yes, I know about robot exclusion, but why should I have to? Urrr, because that's the kind of problem that robot exclusion was designed to help avoid? In the long run your list archives would likely be of more use to people if you defined a single clear web entry point and blocked the robots out of the raw archives themselves. This would make life easier for most of the people involved, possibly including yourself. It's not clear to me why you *wouldn't* want to do this, unless you a) feel this is a moral axe worth grinding or b) simply don't care about the implications of running your archives this way -- which is your own business, I guess, but it strikes me as unnecessarily antisocial. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 14 18:57:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA03321 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA03226 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (tibbs@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA15342 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 19:57:55 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199610150057.TAA15342@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Web-based archives considered harmful? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Oct 1996 18:18:29 -0600 (MDT)" References: <199610150018.SAA01096@slug.swcp.com> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.34.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 19:57:54 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "LN" == Lazlo Nibble writes: LN> Urrr, because that's the kind of problem that robot exclusion was LN> designed to help avoid? I have always been under the impression that robot exclusion was meant to keep spiders from exposing things that I don't want exposed except to people who come to my site looking. I don't mind if my archives are indexed, in fact I welcome it. But it the indexers go overboard (as judged by the users of those indices), why should I try to fix things for them? LN> In the long run your list archives would likely be of more use to LN> people if you defined a single clear web entry point and blocked the LN> robots out of the raw archives themselves. Actually, the indexes themselves would be of more use to people. My archives (with their own targeted search engines) remain useful regardless of who indexes them. LN> It's not clear to me why you *wouldn't* want to do this, Because I actually like having at least a piece of my archives indexed by others? Because it's extra work? Yes, it is _only_ one file, but consider that it is to my advantage to have some of my archives indexed (especially recent ones). I actually tried to do this by excluding sections of the archives, then realized that the indexes just aren't expiring the old stuff. So I end up back where I've started minus all of the time I've wasted. LN> feel this is a moral axe worth grinding Well, it would help if the indices were designed to avoid it themselves. After all, why should I be concerned about their quality? Indexers who strive to maintain quality will eventually learn to take care of these things. LN> simply don't care about the implications of running your archives this LN> way -- which is your own business, I guess, but it strikes me as LN> unnecessarily antisocial. I leave my archives open for all to come and browse. Being open is antisocial? I just don't see it. And even if I turned on robot exclusion today, the old stuff would still be in there. I turned on exclusion for one of my lists many months ago, yet a search for a troubling topic today turns up my site as the sixth best hit. - J< From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 14 21:12:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA07283 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 21:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from llama.swcp.com (llama.swcp.com [198.59.115.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA07247 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 21:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by llama.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA26913 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:07:17 -0600 Message-Id: <199610150407.WAA26913@llama.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Web-based archives considered harmful? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:07:14 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I don't mind if my archives are indexed, in fact I welcome it. But it > the indexers go overboard (as judged by the users of those indices), why > should I try to fix things for them? If you don't like the way the indexes treat your list archives, then excluding robots from those archives will help solve the problem. If you don't care how the indexes treat your list archives, then tell that to the people who are complaining. If my list archives were up on the web (which they aren't at the moment, but they probably will be eventually) I'd do what I suggested to you earlier, because I think that approach serves everyone best. But how you run your archives is your own business. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 15 12:38:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA02944 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA02629 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id HAA15526; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 07:00:19 -0700 Received: from maildeliver0.tiac.net(199.0.65.19) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma015473; Tue Oct 15 06:59:15 1996 Received: from worldmachine.com (worldmachine.com [204.215.133.237]) by maildeliver0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09516; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from eric@localhost) by worldmachine.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA07455; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:05:46 -0400 From: "Eric J. Hansen" Message-Id: <199610151405.KAA07455@worldmachine.com> Subject: Re: Web-based archives considered harmful? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Cc: tibbs@hpc.uh.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jason L Tibbitts III writes: > My reply was "too bad." I make my archives publicly available; anyone > can search them. I also have a homebrew front end search engine based on > Glimpse which allows things like limiting by date. Why should I care if > some over-zealous spider went through my entire archives and added them to > its index? It is they who aren't serving their customers well by doing > this; my search engine works fine. Jason, it sounds like your setup is very similar to mine: custom CGI-based web front-end using a Glimpse engine. I'm using this for three of my own mailing lists, but the main difference is that digest archives are not _directly_ accessible - i.e., the documents are not under the web directory tree. I have a separate "browse" and "search" CGI's that allow random access to anything you want, but they reference these documents outside of the web tree, and thus these messages are not explored by web robots. I think this is a viable alternative if you decide that having your archives indexed by the major web search engines is undesirable, but you still want to make your archives fully accessible. Note that this solution only works when your HTTP server has access to files outside of the www document tree (i.e., it does not do a chroot), and by the same measure, may create a security hole - caveat programmer. Also, on the related topic of people unsubscribing (or not subscribing in the first place) to your list because they're able to get to your archives via the WWW front-end... I considered this issue as well when I put up my web front-end, and I decided that it was reasonable to let people "lurk" without requiring them to be subscribed -- what's the harm? With my lists, you must still subscribe in order to submit messages to the list, so I'm not too worried about WWW-originated spam. Now, another issue: do you let people subscribe via a WWW/CGI script? -Eric -- Eric J. Hansen ................................. http://www.worldmachine.com Worldmachine Technologies ..................... mailto:eric@worldmachine.com From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 15 12:38:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA22159 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA13851 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id JAA18573; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:30:12 -0700 Received: from outlawnet.com(204.245.248.202) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma018533; Tue Oct 15 09:29:06 1996 Received: from [204.245.248.253] (liv29.outlawnet.com [204.245.248.253]) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA27572 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:31:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: garyb@outlawnet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: garyb@fxt.com (Gary Bickford) Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #216 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It seems to me that you've answered your own question - the present situation is evidently inconvenient for you, the list members, and folks on the net as a whole. I can't think of anyone else to irritate :-) If you think there is a value in having some of the mail topics indexed, then you might consider extracting just the subject lines, or have an index of items you've extracted using your own search engine, and make that available to the search engines, then block the robots from the mail content itself. 'Course, now the engines have indexed the entirety, the cat's probably out of the bag - I doubt they drop anything once indexed. I'm looking forward to the meta-content engines, such as proposed by that guy at Apple. (BTW - I used to work with a concept based full text search tool called Metamorph - highly recommended.) gb >Basically, I received a complaint that because I make the sum total of my >list archives available on the web, it is impossible to search for useful >information because my archive pages keep popping up. For instance, a >search for "fvwm" (a UNIX window manager whose mailing lists I host) will >(at some search engines) reveal a pile of hits to individual messages while >the main page is buried. Essentially, I was accused of "polluting the >indexes," especially with old messages which I make available. >My reply was "too bad." I make my archives publicly available; anyone >can search them. I also have a homebrew front end search engine based on >Glimpse which allows things like limiting by date. Why should I care if >some over-zealous spider went through my entire archives and added them to >its index? It is they who aren't serving their customers well by doing >this; my search engine works fine. > >Yes, I know about robot exclusion, but why should I have to? end | Gary Bickford --+-- FXT Corp. / Informat Communications | 541-923-3060 | fax 541-923-5537 From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 15 21:12:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA01728 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA01320 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id TAA22248; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:53:52 -0700 Received: from router.hamjudo.com(152.160.58.254) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma022201; Tue Oct 15 19:53:01 1996 Received: from localhost (paulh@localhost) by hamjudo.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA18583; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:59:06 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:59:05 -0400 (EDTO) From: Paul Haas Reply-To: paulh@hamjudo.com To: Jason L Tibbitts III cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Web-based archives considered harmful? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 14 Oct 1996, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > Basically, I received a complaint that because I make the sum total of my > list archives available on the web, it is impossible to search for useful > information because my archive pages keep popping up. For instance, a > search for "fvwm" (a UNIX window manager whose mailing lists I host) will > (at some search engines) reveal a pile of hits to individual messages while > the main page is buried. Essentially, I was accused of "polluting the > indexes," especially with old messages which I make available. In AltaVista's advanced search, the query fvwm and not "fvwm mailing list" did a fine job of removing the mailing list hits. Some sort of header on each of the pages in archive would help a lot. All it would take is one link to an "about the fvwm mailing list page", which could have the one line description of how to get search engines to avoid the pages, a link to the fvwm faq (if such a thing exists) and a link to your glimpse search engine. [I'm running fvwm as I type, and it occurs to me that I've never bothered to read any fvwm documentation.] > I make my archives publicly available; anyone > can search them. This sounds like a usefull feature to me. It will take a little time for people to learn how to use the indexes effectively. This is getting easier, because the web index interfaces are improving. Likewise, the mailing list archive software will improve too. -- Paul Haas paulh@hamjudo.com http://www.hamjudo.com I've made the big time, Dave Barry made fun of my web site in Newsweek. From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 16 03:14:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id DAA22746 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from curie.bcc.louisville.edu (curie.bcc.louisville.edu [136.165.140.23]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id DAA22727 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from curie.bcc.louisville.edu (jad@www.bcc.louisville.edu [136.165.140.24]) by curie.bcc.louisville.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA22637 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:09:36 -0400 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:09:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jason A. Dour" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Web-based archives considered harmful? In-Reply-To: <199610151405.KAA07455@worldmachine.com> Message-ID: Comments: Getting paid to be a geek is cool... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Eric J. Hansen wrote: > Note that this solution only works when your HTTP server has access to > files outside of the www document tree (i.e., it does not do a chroot), > and by the same measure, may create a security hole - caveat programmer. One other tip that I have found particularly useful in this regard...even if your server doesn't do a chroot()... Instead of moving the files outside of the protected web hierarchy, just turn the permissions for the public off. That way, you have your files inside the allowed filespace, but unable to be browsed by the web. When you want someone to see some of that data, just include it via SSI or CGI (Apache will soon let you control who CGI and SSI execute as...check it out in the first betas of 1.2). > Now, another issue: do you let people subscribe via a WWW/CGI script? Yes, providing they type in their return email address. I do not rely upon their browser for this at all. I have a quick form that takes their email address and properly formats a subscribe request for the list they picked on the form. Quite handy. Someday I'll have to write an unsub tool, though...I do get a lot of clueless "How do I unsubscribe" messages. 8) (I would say "read the welcome letter", but we all know no one ever reads/keeps those.) Jason + Jason A. Dour jad@bcc.louisville.edu + | Programmer Analyst II http://www.louisville.edu/~jadour01/ | | Dept. of Radiation Oncology Finger for Geek Code, PGP Public Key,| + University of Louisville PJ Harvey info, and other stuff... + -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMmS0X5o1JaC71RLxAQHZ0wQApifXO9mZL60kne4r25VYM2RLW8OEcGnv btIOTypHmrftJEchU1Ef/zwT272YVFzyLe1DiDynY6zFgW2e49Lz4HlkL3+ZwMJ+ 7btSvbs4SHMsG0YtSOfW3Rvn8t3nZx8hqf4nWYKoV0zZAsoYYXPW66UCKbzY2e70 DRuI+Yo4N7Y= =1Z0N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 16 04:27:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA28752 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu (spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id EAA28741 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA28405 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:27:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA24704 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:22:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:22:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199610161122.HAA24704@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Web-based archives Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Jason L Tibbitts III >Basically, I received a complaint that because I make the sum total of my >list archives available on the web, it is impossible to search for useful >information because my archive pages keep popping up. I must admit that I find such things rather frustrating when searching; wading through 500 hits from a single site is something of a waste, es- pecially when they're actually intertwined as a discussion thread. >Yes, I know about robot exclusion, but why should I have to? Excluding the actual archives would be a Nice Thing, for one simple reason - searchers would see a link to your "top-level" page, but not each and every message that registered as a hit. Were I providing a Web-based archive, I'd advertise the "search the archives" page, but nothing else. --Wes From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 16 04:33:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA28816 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [194.154.62.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id EAA28808 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk [194.154.62.8] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 0.53 #1) id E0vDU6X-0001FQ-00; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:25:41 +0100 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:25:41 +0100 (BST) From: Manar Hussain To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Web-based archives considered harmful? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk (just joined and have tried to pick the thread up off the archives) My first reaction to the first message in this thread was much like others - set up a robots.txt file. But then it occurred to me that this really isn't ideal - until perhaps robots.txt files are tuned to allow you to indictate things like list archive ??? The real problem is that whilst search engines seem to be improving their features - one of the most annoying things they don't seem at all good at is owrking out that those 1000s good matches with really similar URLs are probably not all usefully provided at the top of the "best matches" list. -- On a related note: Is there a list anywhere of examples of web based archiving? We've spent (are spending) a fair while putting together a fairly sophisticated/customised system on top of majordomo (it makes the list a web conference area too) and I'd like to see if there's anything else there to compare it with we haven't seen yet. Manar From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 16 04:43:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA29041 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [194.154.62.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id EAA29021 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk [194.154.62.8] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 0.53 #1) id E0vDUCH-0001Fz-00; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:31:37 +0100 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:31:37 +0100 (BST) From: Manar Hussain To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Problems with EMC for Prodigy Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> A web-based form ensures that the most incompetent members of the >> Internet have access to your list. Personally, I *demand* that >> all my list members have a minimum level of proficiency in email >> before they are welcome. Unlesss they do, there is no way they >> can be a useful contributor to the list, and a high probability >> they will be a problem. This isn't some pissy elitist club attitude. >> If they aren't skilled in email, they simply aren't ready to >> participate. > >My recent experience tends to confirm this. People were entering >their own addresses, only with lots of typos; they were entering >other addresses, without the owner's permission; and there were a >lot of situations where the address they entered worked but >differed enough from the address on their mailer that >restrict_post and unsubscribe didn't work. There may be some mileage in trying to avoid inexperienced users from hitting the list - but with regard to subscribing via the web we've put together an "email validation" system to sit in front of the subscrive option. Basically when you type in your email address you get sent a mail with a password in it - return to the site with that password and we'll let you subscribe to any list you like (on our site:). We've even been considering hacking this into majordomo itself - I believe listserv let's you make sure people don't *really* subscribe to a confirmation is sent from the email address being subscribed. Manar From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 16 10:03:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA19704 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imc.org (imc.org [165.227.249.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA19673 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [165.227.113.247] (phoffman.sc.scruznet.com [165.227.113.247]) by imc.org (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA10271 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:48:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: paulh@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:49:31 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Web-based archives considered harmful? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'd like to take a different view of this. I think it is the responsibility of the *search services* to make the results they give more readable, not the responsibility of the archive maintainers. Sure, the "fvwm" mailing list archive is going to return a zillion hits for a search on "fvwm", but if you exclude searchers from that archive and someone is looking for "fvwm and Netscape", they won't see that there was a perfect message on that subject. Worse yet, if they happen to be searching for information about "Chrylistanocks" who is a maker of some "fvwm" software, and you have the only "fvwm" site, they will get *no* hits even though the information is available to them. Just because the folks at AltaVista, Excite, and so on are too lazy to create better interfaces to the results of searches doesn't mean that we should cut off access to our valuable content. All Alta Vista has to do is write software that looks at the result of a search that says "gee, there's 100 hits, 80 from a single site, maybe I should combine these in some smart way and put this at the top of the result page and highlight it in some way." They could even give you a hierarchical view of the results, such as "Click here for all the individual messages at foo.com/fvwm-list that match your request, click here for all the message in .su that match your request" and so on. Please, please don't start limiting access to your content based on today's immature Web search technologies. Let it all be indexed and force the indexers to do a better job of displaying their results. Believe me, the indexing site that is able to say "2500 matches, displayed for you in a reasonable fashion" will draw users to it quickly, and the other search sites will follow suit. --Paul Hoffman --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 16 16:30:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA04882 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA04734 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mne.ifi.uio.no (1232@mne.ifi.uio.no [129.240.70.5]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:03:06 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by mne.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:03:04 +0200 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:03:04 +0200 Message-Id: <199610162303.5775.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: morgan@engr.uky.edu CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <199610161122.HAA24704@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> (message from Wes Morgan on Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:22:49 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: Web-based archives Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Wes Morgan] | I must admit that I find such things rather frustrating when | searching; wading through 500 hits from a single site is something | of a waste, especially when they're actually intertwined as a | discussion thread. Well, then your search must be made more specific. Just "fvwm" gave me "about 5000" hits. So I did (Alta Vista simple syntax) "+title:fvwm -title:Mailing.List" and got 146 hits. To exclude the _other_ (old?) fvwm mailing list archives, I then refined it to "+title:fvwm -title:Mailing.List -Prev.Next -Next.Index -date.thread" (just keep that last bit around, it covers most archive software) Now it's down to 73 hits, none of which are from mailing lists. Admittedly, it would be nice if every list archive included a specific keyword to make it more easy to exclude them... Usually, I _am_ interested in searching list archives. Like yesterday, when I was looking for experiences with CAP vs. netatalk on Solaris 2.5. It seems like several people feel after conducting my search on the web, I should supplement it by first locating any relevant list archives (sun-managers and cap-users), learning the more or less baroque syntax for searching, and submit my query. I really prefer to use one query, in one simple and powerful syntax. There's one annoying thing about most list archives, though: They usually contain "Next/Previous Message: topic here" at the bottom, which gives two irrelevant hits for every relevant one. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 17 09:02:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA03254 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rich.chel.su (mobil.rich.chel.su [192.195.8.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA03029 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from specle.UUCP (uuspecle@localhost) by rich.chel.su (8.7.2/Murphy) with UUCP id TAA18562; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:00:09 +0500 (UST) Received: by specle.chel.su (UUPC/@ v6.14g, 06Jun95) id AA29875; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:24:21 GMT (URA) To: LIS-L@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU Cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Message-Id: Organization: OOO Yguralspecavtomatick From: "Michael A. Sniggin" Date: Tue, 15 Oct 96 17:24:20 +0400 X-Mailer: BML [MS/DOS Beauty Mail v1.36h] Subject: We Need Your HELP! Lines: 28 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gentlemen! Please, read this message over - this is not an ads or something like that. We live in the South Urals, Russia and we are trying to connect our society, our people to the Internet by new technologies - just to have normal conditions to work with this Great Net. What we have now is just a mockery - sometimes 25 bytes/sec (!!!). But new equipment is very expensive. So we are trying to collect the sum we need by donations of persons holding the same views. If you sympathise our ideas and consider it possible to send us some money - it would be accepted with warm gratitude. We would be also very grateful to all advises too, our mail - specle@specle.chel.su Thank you for reading this message over, and - forgive us for taking your time. Yours virtually, Yang businessmen. Please transfer ANY sum to the: BENEFICIARY: Lazarev Yuri Ivanovich, Russia ACCOUNT # 008100072 With Savings Bank Of Russian Federation (SBERBANK) C.H.I.P.S. Number 3212333 SWIFT Code - SABRRUMM Kurchatovskoe Branch 8053 In Favour Account # 7207001394/001 (for USD) # 7207000088/048 (for DM) From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 17 09:07:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA03335 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA03317 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id IAA06555; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:55:43 -0700 Received: from mobil.rich.chel.su(192.195.8.36) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma006548; Thu Oct 17 08:53:41 1996 Received: from specle.UUCP (uuspecle@localhost) by rich.chel.su (8.7.2/Murphy) with UUCP id TAA18563; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:00:09 +0500 (UST) Received: by specle.chel.su (UUPC/@ v6.14g, 06Jun95) id AA29875; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:24:57 GMT (URA) To: LIST-MANAGERS-DIGEST@GREATCIRCLE.COM Cc: LISTEN-2@BGU.EDU Message-Id: Organization: OOO Yguralspecavtomatick From: "Michael A. Sniggin" Date: Tue, 15 Oct 96 17:24:56 +0400 X-Mailer: BML [MS/DOS Beauty Mail v1.36h] Subject: We Need Your HELP! Lines: 28 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gentlemen! Please, read this message over - this is not an ads or something like that. We live in the South Urals, Russia and we are trying to connect our society, our people to the Internet by new technologies - just to have normal conditions to work with this Great Net. What we have now is just a mockery - sometimes 25 bytes/sec (!!!). But new equipment is very expensive. So we are trying to collect the sum we need by donations of persons holding the same views. If you sympathise our ideas and consider it possible to send us some money - it would be accepted with warm gratitude. We would be also very grateful to all advises too, our mail - specle@specle.chel.su Thank you for reading this message over, and - forgive us for taking your time. Yours virtually, Yang businessmen. Please transfer ANY sum to the: BENEFICIARY: Lazarev Yuri Ivanovich, Russia ACCOUNT # 008100072 With Savings Bank Of Russian Federation (SBERBANK) C.H.I.P.S. Number 3212333 SWIFT Code - SABRRUMM Kurchatovskoe Branch 8053 In Favour Account # 7207001394/001 (for USD) # 7207000088/048 (for DM) From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 17 10:02:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA11720 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA11575 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA01113; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:37:46 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961017165117.006dd384@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:51:17 -0700 To: "Michael A. Sniggin" From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: We Need Your HELP! Cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 05:24 PM 10/15/96 +0400, Michael A. Sniggin wrote: >Please, read this message over - this is not an ads or something like that. >We live in the South Urals, Russia and we are trying to connect our >society, our people to the Internet by new technologies - just to have >normal conditions to work with this Great Net. What we have now is just a >mockery - sometimes 25 bytes/sec (!!!). But new equipment is very expensive. >So we are trying to collect the sum we need by donations of persons holding >the same views. If you sympathise our ideas and consider it possible >to send us some money - it would be accepted with warm gratitude. Gads. Even on list-managers, we can't escape these 'MAKE RUBLES FAST" spams. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` The Virtual Dog Show is back! www.dogshow.com From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 18 02:49:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA27625 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [194.154.62.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id CAA27517 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk [194.154.62.8] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 0.53 #1) id E0vEAz3-0006Ho-00; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:12:49 +0100 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:12:49 +0100 (BST) From: Manar Hussain To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Web-based archives considered harmful? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My point exactly - said longer (and better :). >I'd like to take a different view of this. I think it is the responsibility >of the *search services* to make the results they give more readable, not [ ... ] >immature Web search technologies. Let it all be indexed and force the >indexers to do a better job of displaying their results. Believe me, the >indexing site that is able to say "2500 matches, displayed for you in a >reasonable fashion" will draw users to it quickly, and the other search >sites will follow suit. > >--Paul Hoffman >--Internet Mail Consortium > From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 20 20:17:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA04832 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id UAA04816 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id UAA00557 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slug.swcp.com (slug.swcp.com [198.59.115.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA13549 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by slug.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA00752 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:45:51 -0600 Message-Id: <199610161545.JAA00752@slug.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Problems with EMC for Prodigy To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:45:50 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > we've put together an "email validation" system to sit in front of the > subscrive option. Basically when you type in your email address you get > sent a mail with a password in it - return to the site with that > password and we'll let you subscribe to any list you like (on our > site:). > > We've even been considering hacking this into majordomo itself... I believe this is in majordomo 1.94 already, but could be mistaken. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 20 20:23:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA04788 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id UAA04780 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id UAA00552 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id HAA11014 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1); Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:00:54 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:00:56 -0500 To: Manar Hussain From: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Subject: Validating Subscribers' Addresses (was: Problems with EMC...) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 12:31 PM 10/16/96, Manar Hussain said: >"email validation" system to sit in front of the subscrive option. Basically >when you type in your email address you get sent a mail with a password in it - >return to the site with that password and we'll let you subscribe to any list >you like (on our site:). *This* is a hot idea -- it serves the same purpose as confirmation messages, and is probably less confusing for the novice. >listserv let's you make sure people don't *really* subscribe to a >confirmation is sent from the email address being subscribed. Listserv *does* sport that feature; it will soon be an option on ListProc, as well. - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 20 20:29:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA04868 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id UAA04859 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id UAA00567 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA24278 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (tibbs@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA16285 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:22:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199610161722.MAA16285@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Problems with EMC for Prodigy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:31:37 +0100 (BST)" References: X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.34.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:22:40 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "MH" == Manar Hussain writes: MH> but with regard to subscribing via the web we've put together an "email MH> validation" system to sit in front of the subscrive option. [...] MH> We've even been considering hacking this into majordomo itself - I MH> believe listserv let's you make sure people don't *really* subscribe to MH> a confirmation is sent from the email address being subscribed. This is off of the subject and there are better places to discuss Majordomo, but I will point out that Majordomo 1.94, which is very close to release now, does this. I've been using such a feature for over a year now. I believe that confirmed subscriptions will go a _long_ way towards solving many of the problems we have with web-based subscription forms and forged subscriptions and possibly even stop some of the spamming. Confirmation is definitely a must as the ultimate address validator, though building some checks into the subscription front end can help avoid some confusion. - J< From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 20 20:29:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA04773 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id UAA04766 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id UAA00547 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.mod.uk (relay.mod.uk [192.5.29.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id GAA04942 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.dra.hmg.gb by relay.mod.uk with local SMTP id ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:25:50 +0100 Received: from wandle.dra.hmg.gb by hermes.dra.hmg.gb (MX V4.1 VAX) with SMTP; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:25:38 GMT Received: from rivers.dra.hmg.gb by wandle.dra.hmg.gb with smtp(Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0vDVy6-0007UqC; Wed, 16 Oct 96 14:25 WET DST X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Manar Hussain CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Problems with EMC for Prodigy Organization: IT Vulnerabilities Group, DRA Malvern, UK References: In-reply-to: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:25:05 +0100 Message-ID: <27753.845472305@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , Manar Hussain writes: > Basically when you type in your email address you get sent a mail with a > password in it - return to the site with that password and we'll let you > subscribe to any list you like (on our site:). > > We've even been considering hacking this into majordomo itself No need to, the forthcoming version of majordomo has the "confirm" configuration option for subscriptions in it already. ;) Chris -- Christopher Samuel, IT Vulnerabilities Group, chris@rivers.dra.hmg.gb N-115, Defence Research Agency, St Andrews Road, Great Malvern, England, UK DISCLAIMER: I write only for myself, not for DRA. Phone: +44 1684 894644 +MIME+ +PGP+ From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 21 07:29:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA09445 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 07:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boulder.earthnet.net (boulder.earthnet.net [199.45.146.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA09402 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 07:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jennifer (slip15.earthnet.net [199.45.146.115]) by boulder.earthnet.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA22100 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:23:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199610211423.IAA22100@boulder.earthnet.net> From: "Gregory K. Remington" To: Subject: Majordomo member list suppression Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:21:12 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've just begun managing a majordomo list and would like to suppress the response to the 'who' option, also for members. It seems that anybody sensitive to privacy issues might want to do this on a per-list basis. Is this already possible? If not, how difficult can it be to redefine or expand the members-only config options to allow suppression? Greg From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 21 09:18:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA17665 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA17629 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA11232; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:00:22 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961021161410.006e55e8@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:14:10 -0700 To: "Gregory K. Remington" From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Majordomo member list suppression Cc: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:21 AM 10/21/96 -0600, Gregory K. Remington wrote: >I've just begun managing a majordomo list and would like to >suppress the response to the 'who' option, also for members. >It seems that anybody sensitive to privacy issues might >want to do this on a per-list basis. Is this already possible? >If not, how difficult can it be to redefine or expand the >members-only config options to allow suppression? My brute-force approach was just to restrict the 'who' command so that -no one- can use it. I'm not convinced there -is- a good reason for anyone to need to get at the subscriber list, except maybe the list owner -- and I allow that via a password-protected web page. It's pretty trivial, Perl-wise, to disable 'who'. Let me know if you need help with that. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` The Virtual Dog Show is back! www.dogshow.com From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 21 09:45:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA18650 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thyme (thyme.finesse.com [140.174.171.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA18638 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by thyme (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA02380; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:14:06 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:14:06 -0700 From: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris) Message-Id: <199610211614.JAA02380@thyme> To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM, SPAMAD@INTERNET.COM, SPAM-L@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM Subject: Question on Pornography X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi This is tangentally a spam question, but primarily a child pornography question. Basically I was spammed by someone offering child pornography. Primarily the 7-9 year range.(Ugh!) They are not in the same state that I am in. (I'm in CA and their snail mail address is in NY). I believe that this is one situation that does require governmental action and is illegal regardless of the CDA. My only problem is that I don't know who to turn this over to. This is one thing that I wouldn't want to fall through the cracks. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks Mary Morris From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 21 10:45:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA28878 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ncar.UCAR.EDU (ncar.ucar.edu [192.52.106.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA28787 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610211733.LAA00129@ncar.ucar.EDU> Received: by ncar.ucar.EDU (NCAR Local/ NCAR Central Post Office 03/11/93) id LAA00129; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:33:25 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: Question on Pornography To: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 96 11:33:25 MDT Cc: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM, SPAMAD@INTERNET.COM, SPAM-L@eva.dc.LSOFT.COM In-Reply-To: <199610211614.JAA02380@thyme>; from "Mary Morris" at Oct 21, 96 9:14 am From: woods@ucar.edu (Greg Woods) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I got a half dozen compalints about the kiddie porn spam. That means probably several dozen people here received it and ignored it. Based on what I've seen, I doubt very much that there is any kiddie porn really for sale here. Dealers in illegal goods cannot publically advertise themselves and remain in business for very long, and even people who sell illegal goods have to rely on repeat customers to stay in business. Blind probes for new customers are far too likely to draw law enforcement. More likely this is a prank or a scam. They rent a post office box for a couple of days and abscond with any checks or credit card numbers they receive. Nobody gets any tapes or pictures. Or it's a Bart Simpson style prank (in which case it's hugely successful based on how strongly people are reacting to it; they could hardly pick a better topic if they want to annoy people worldwide). --Greg From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 21 11:05:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA01448 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ami.tom.computerworks.net (AMI.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.95.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA01413 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com by ami.tom.computerworks.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vFOTT-0021VYC; Mon, 21 Oct 96 13:49 EDT Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA21678; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:47:40 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199610211747.MAA21678@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Question on Pornography To: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:47:39 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199610211614.JAA02380@thyme> from "Mary Morris" at Oct 21, 96 09:14:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I believe that this is one situation that does require governmental > action and is illegal regardless of the CDA. My only problem is that > I don't know who to turn this over to. This is one thing that I > wouldn't want to fall through the cracks. I would recommend not donig anything. This is an obvious attempt by a forger to frame an innocent party. You are not alone, a lot of people are up in arms about it, which is exactly what the forger wanted. Go read news.admin.net-abuse.misc for more information. From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 21 11:16:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA01204 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sword.lightspeed.bc.ca (sword.lightspeed.bc.ca [206.12.82.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA01158 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lightspeed.bc.ca (morian@[206.12.82.58]) by sword.lightspeed.bc.ca (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA14995; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19961021204141.48f76d2e@lightspeed.bc.ca> X-Sender: morian@lightspeed.bc.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:41:41 -0700 To: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris) From: Morian Subject: Re: Question on Pornography Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:14 AM 10/21/96 -0700, you wrote: >Hi > >This is tangentally a spam question, but primarily a child pornography >question. Basically I was spammed by someone offering child >pornography. Primarily the 7-9 year range.(Ugh!) They are not in the same >state that I am in. (I'm in CA and their snail mail address is in NY). > >I believe that this is one situation that does require governmental >action and is illegal regardless of the CDA. My only problem is that >I don't know who to turn this over to. This is one thing that I >wouldn't want to fall through the cracks. A couple of users on a list that i'm on have gotten the same thing, and they were talking about sending it to the fbi. I saw one of these people on IRC, and he said that he called the FBI, and (I think) they said to print out a copy and send it to them. regards - Morian -- Morian -- morian@pobox.com -- http://www.pobox.com/~morian Sending me unsolicited commercial email would be a big mistake. Finger above address for PGP public key and commercial email policy. Only 4 lines in your .sig isn't the law - just simple fire prevention. From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 21 14:02:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA06857 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carson-oms1.u.washington.edu (carson-oms1.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA06785 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carson.u.washington.edu (carson.u.washington.edu [140.142.52.11]) by carson-oms1.u.washington.edu (8.7.5+UW96.10/8.7.3+UW96.09) with SMTP id LAA12997; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:21:43 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:21:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Andersson To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM cc: SPAMAD@INTERNET.COM, SPAM-L@eva.dc.LSOFT.COM Subject: Re: Question on Pornography In-Reply-To: <199610211733.LAA00129@ncar.ucar.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Greg Woods wrote: > I got a half dozen compalints about the kiddie porn spam. That means > probably several dozen people here received it and ignored it. [snip] > More likely this is a prank or a scam. They rent a post office box for As a recipient to the above-mentioned spam, I'll tell you what I did. Since the spam included a street address and they were offering to s-mail the "product", I contacted the local Postal Inspector's office. The inspector took down all the information and said she would follow up on it. --Mike Andersson ListOwner, SWEDE-L email: From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 21 14:02:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA12933 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp5.netcom.com [163.179.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA12703 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id LAA04489; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:21:47 -0700 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0vFOrY-000gd1C; Mon, 21 Oct 96 11:14 PDT Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Re: Question on Pornography To: woods@ucar.edu (Greg Woods) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Cc: marym@Finesse.COM, list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM, SPAMAD@INTERNET.COM, SPAM-L@eva.dc.LSOFT.COM In-Reply-To: <199610211733.LAA00129@ncar.ucar.EDU> from "Greg Woods" at Oct 21, 96 11:33:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to unnamed sources, Greg Woods is alleged to have written => More likely this is a prank or a scam. They rent a post office box for => a couple of days and abscond with any checks or credit card numbers they => receive. Nobody gets any tapes or pictures. Or it's a Bart Simpson style => prank (in which case it's hugely successful based on how strongly people => are reacting to it; they could hardly pick a better topic if they want => to annoy people worldwide). It is indeed worldwide, I've gotten a complaint from one of my subscribers whose boss was in his office when this piece of email arrived... -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | It's time to taste what you most fear james@sagarmatha.com (home) | Right Guard will not help you here. | Brace yourself, my dear! | It's a holiday in Cambodia! From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 21 14:44:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA06523 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from IBAG.COM (access.ibag.com [207.76.156.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA06471 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from computer1 by IBAG.COM with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0vFOoK-0000reC; Mon, 21 Oct 96 11:10 MST Message-Id: <2.2.32.19961021182001.006ae480@mailhost.ibag.com> X-Sender: randy@mailhost.ibag.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:20:01 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Randy Saxton Subject: Majordomo flooding with digests Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hoping that this is the correct list to ask this question, I ask: I recently set up a list (moderated and closed) and list-digest in majordomo for a customer. Now the customer says that when he approves a subscription for the list-digest, the user is sent copies of *all* previous digests! Has anyone every come across this problem with Majordomo? And, Is there a way to simply turn it off? In a couple months, this could present a huge problem. Thank you Randy Saxton Internet Business Access Group (602) 277-1044 From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 21 14:45:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA01243 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.liverpool.ac.uk (mail.liv.ac.uk [138.253.100.84]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA01182 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) with ESMTP; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:36:49 +0100 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk (mail.liv.ac.uk [138.253.100.84]) by news.liv.ac.uk (8.8.0/8.8.0-ajt-4lim) with SMTP id SAA23680; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:36:49 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:36:35 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Thew X-Sender: qq11@mail.liv.ac.uk To: Mary Morris cc: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM, SPAMAD@INTERNET.COM, SPAM-L@eva.dc.LSOFT.COM Subject: Re: Question on Pornography In-Reply-To: <199610211614.JAA02380@thyme> Message-ID: Organization: The University of Liverpool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From what I've seen (on other lists) this is probably an attack on the named individual. True or not, I don't think the people that need to know are going to miss this. -- Alan Thew alan.thew@liverpool.ac.uk Computing Services,University of Liverpool Fax: +44 151 794-4442 On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Mary Morris wrote: > Hi > > This is tangentally a spam question, but primarily a child pornography > question. Basically I was spammed by someone offering child > pornography. Primarily the 7-9 year range.(Ugh!) They are not in the same > state that I am in. (I'm in CA and their snail mail address is in NY). > > I believe that this is one situation that does require governmental > action and is illegal regardless of the CDA. My only problem is that > I don't know who to turn this over to. This is one thing that I > wouldn't want to fall through the cracks. > > Any advice is appreciated. > > Thanks > > Mary Morris > From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 21 15:14:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA05703 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 15:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hamjudo.com (router.hamjudo.com [152.160.58.254]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA05673 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 15:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (paulh@localhost) by hamjudo.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA16316; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:11:22 -0400 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:11:20 -0400 (EDTO) From: Paul Haas Reply-To: paulh@hamjudo.com To: Randy Saxton cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Majordomo flooding with digests In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19961021182001.006ae480@mailhost.ibag.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Randy Saxton wrote: > Hoping that this is the correct list to ask this question, I ask: Nope wrong list. Majordomo questions should go to majordomo-users. They'll figure out that it is a sendmail problem and tell you that sendmail questions should go to the newsgroup comp.mail.sendmail. There, they will point out that you can find all of the old digests stuck in the outgoing mail queue, (frequently /var/spool/mqueue). If you then look in the queue, you may be able to figure out why they are stuck. You should certainly subscribe to majordomo-users if you'll be setting up majordomo for your customers. Send email to majordomo@greatcircle.com for subscription information. If my guess in the above paragraph is wrong, don't continue the discussion here. > I recently set up a list (moderated and closed) and list-digest in majordomo > for a customer. Now the customer says that when he approves a subscription > for the list-digest, the user is sent copies of *all* previous digests! -- paulh@hamjudo.com http://www.hamjudo.com I've made the big time, Dave Barry made fun of my web page. From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 21 16:46:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA13128 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunspot.tiac.net (sunspot.tiac.net [199.0.65.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id QAA12910 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stanr@localhost) by sunspot.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.6.6.Beta9) id TAA07338; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:06:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Stan Ryckman Message-Id: <199610212306.TAA07338@sunspot.tiac.net> Subject: Re: Question on Pornography To: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:06:41 -0400 (EDT) Cc: marym@Finesse.COM, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199610211747.MAA21678@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Stephanie da Silva" at Oct 21, 96 12:47:39 pm Organization: Amber & Sneakers Fan Club X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephanie da Silva wrote: > Go read news.admin.net-abuse.misc for more information. Just to complicate things, some bozo seems to have sent out bogus rmgroups for various news.* groups (including that one) so you may have to ask your ISP to put it back if they haven't caught it yet. Cheers, Stan. From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 21 19:14:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA15217 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA15187 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (tibbs@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA22876; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:02:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199610220202.VAA22876@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: randy@ibag.com Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Majordomo flooding with digests In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:20:01 -0700" References: <2.2.32.19961021182001.006ae480@mailhost.ibag.com> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.34.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:02:48 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "RS" == Randy Saxton writes: RS> Hoping that this is the correct list to ask this question Well, sort of. We went through this on the majordomo-users list but it didn't turn out to be Majordomo-specific. RS> Now the customer says that when he approves a subscription for the RS> list-digest, the user is sent copies of *all* previous digests! OK, here's the common denominator we found: Smail. All affected systems were Linux machines running Smail. Linux only seemed to factor in because Slackware seems to come with Smail as the default. When sending mail to a list, Smail keeps a list of addresses that it's already sent to. If one of the addresses has delivery problems, the message will stick around in the queue. When Smail runs the queue, it checks toe list of delivered addresses against the address list and tries to deliver to any addresses the message hasn't made it to yet. This includes new addresses added since the message was queued. (Note that I don't use Smail and am repeating this from the conclusions of others.) Is your client running Smail? One solution is to switch to sendmail. Another is to use something like TLB [*] (or bulk_mailer with the number of addresses per batch set really high) to turn the address into a single SMTP transaction, disabling this Smail "feature". [*] TLB is a package I've written which is used to enhance mailing list delivery performance. It's not finished yet, but works fine for those who are currently using it. It's in ftp.hpc.uh.edu:/pub/tlb. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 22 04:29:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA19088 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 04:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rave1.qatraining.com ([194.202.103.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id EAA19047 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 04:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from neint7.qatraining.com (194.202.103.104) by rave1.qatraining.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:24:15 +0000 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:24:15 +0000 Message-ID: X-Sender: student7@rave1.qatraining.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Charlie Subject: Subscibe Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 22 04:45:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA20265 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 04:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rave1.qatraining.com ([194.202.103.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id EAA20242 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 04:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from neint4.qatraining.com (194.202.103.102) by rave1.qatraining.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:25:46 +0000 Message-ID: <326CAF44.74E1@rave1_dom.qatraining.com> Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:25:56 +0100 From: Fiona Duffield Organization: BT LSEC X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: test Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 22 05:44:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA26113 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 05:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rave1.qatraining.com ([194.202.103.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id FAA26097 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 05:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from neint5.qatraining.com (194.202.103.101) by rave1.qatraining.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:42:09 +0000 Message-ID: <326CC12B.7FD8@rave1_dom.qatraining.com> Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:42:19 +0100 From: jim Organization: BT LSEC X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk test message to join mailing list. From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 22 07:55:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA10423 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 07:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netcom.com (mail.netcom.com [192.100.81.99]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA10123; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 07:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Philosoft.netcom.com ([207.92.183.143]) by mail.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id HAA21268; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 07:33:34 -0700 Message-ID: <31CB7D36.1739@io.org> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 21:57:26 -0700 From: Gus Bazos Organization: Philosoft, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Java applet can mirror your mailing list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk If you are running a mailing list with Majordomo and would like an easy way to setup a public WEB page where your subscribers can go to search for messages, then please have a look at the following page: http://www.jug.org/javanews (Netscape3.0 or Explorer 3.0 recomended) It contains a Java applet that can be used to mirror any MIME compliant mailbox. (Please be patient the first time you visit the page, it may take a couple of minutes to load). I have written this applet as a self contained system but can easily modify it to mirror your mailing list mailbox. I'd like to hear from anyone who would be interested in trying this for their list. Please post your message in the JavaNews page, or reply to my email Cheers, Gus Bazos From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 22 15:29:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA04694 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 15:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net (disperse.demon.co.uk [158.152.1.77]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA04657 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 15:21:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([(null)]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id aa02771; 22 Oct 96 23:15 BST Received: from drink.demon.co.uk ([158.152.21.25]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa10992; 22 Oct 96 23:13 BST Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:54:28 GMT From: John Hein Reply-To: johndunedin@drink.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <20333@drink.demon.co.uk> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #222 X-Mailer: PCElm 1.11 Lines: 16 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The kiddy porn thing was sent ONLY to listserver@drink.demon.co.uk at this site. When the listserver attempted to reply to the first five lines, aol bounced the reply. Yawn! -- [ John Hein GM1YME | Phaggots do it on the phone! ] [ johndunedin@drink.demon.co.uk | Sine Pretio Loquimini Omnibus ] [ johndunedin@cix.compulink.co.uk| ] [ Telephone: +44 131 558 1279 |http://www.scotsgay.co.uk/people/john.html] [ TeleFax: +44 131 539 2999 | 39 B5/6 f+ t- w+ d g++ k- s++! r-- p ] [ Lambda BBS: +44 131 556 6316 | S8/9 b g- l y- z/ n o++ x-- a+ u- v- j++ ] From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 23 23:08:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA07259 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA07228 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA09352; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 01:47:23 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960908172933.008041ac@mail.idyllmtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 01:10:06 -0400 To: Kynn Bartlett , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Help with Forgeries Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:29 PM -0400 9/8/1996, Kynn Bartlett wrote: >You mean the White House doesn't -really- have filters to check for >"I'm going to kill you!" email sent to president@whitehouse.gov? :) Nope, they do. But they've been seriously hacked together and not really done in any kind of semi-standard way, even for PMDF. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 23 23:11:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA07412 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA07293; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA09392; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 01:47:58 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <324FE33D.44C1@webdreams.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 01:38:17 -0400 To: brozen@webdreams.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Turning off EXPN (and VRFY) for Majordomo security concern Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:11 AM -0400 9/30/1996, Brock Rozen wrote: >Does anybody know how I can turn EXPN (and VRFY) off on sendmail so that >I don't run into security problems with majordomo? (Using EXPN on >listname-outgoing to get the subscription list) Using version 8 sendmail, it's real easy to turn off all EXPN and VRFY stuff. See the book _sendmail_ by Bryan Costales. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 23 23:20:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA07274 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA07227 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA09347; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 01:47:18 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960908173209.00803d40@mail.idyllmtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 01:09:05 -0400 To: Kynn Bartlett , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: How To Get Anti-Email-Spamming Laws Enacted Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:32 PM -0400 9/8/1996, Kynn Bartlett wrote: >It won't happen until the congressional email addresses get so clogged >with mass-mailings that they're unable to use their email effectively. They don't want to be on the Internet, so this won't work. They're being dragged kicking and screaming onto the 'net, and so long as that's true, they'll never enact any useful legislation to help us. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 23 23:21:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA07343 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA07299 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA09407; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 01:48:03 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199609302023.12762.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> References: <199609301910.OAA13118@garcon.unicom.com> (message from Chip Rosenthal on Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:10:00 -0500 (CDT)) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 01:41:24 -0400 To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Turning off EXPN (and VRFY) for Majordomo security concern Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:23 PM -0400 9/30/1996, Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: >Yeah, and AOL has even turned off verification of RCPT-TO. It really >sucks, because it means I get a separate error report from AOL. Most >other sites report the error at once, and my local sendmail can then >give me one short, precise (well, sort of) report per message sent to >my mailing list. We have seven million users. They don't have accounts on the gateways, so even if VRFY was allowed, it wouldn't do any good -- the addresses would show as "valid" recipients because it is deliverable through the gateway, not because the account really exists. So, we intentionally turn off EXPN and VRFY, since they would not return information to you that would be useful anyway. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 23 23:25:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA07326 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA07260 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA09357; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 01:47:28 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199609081949.MAA10786@ilinx.ilinx.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 01:14:37 -0400 To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re[2]: Help with Forgeries Cc: tcs@earthlink.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:49 PM -0400 9/8/1996, Brian J. Murrell wrote: >from the quill of Brad Knowles on scroll > >> At 8:49 PM -0400 9/1/1996, Jody Boyd wrote: >> I know of no tools that let you refuse connections based on parts >> of the "body" of the message (including most of what you and I >> consider to be the headers) while the SMTP connection is open. > >Ah. Something I've given a bit of thought to lately. We usually will not >install Sendmail as the daemon to which the Internet talks. Too much of a >security risk. So we usually install TIS' fwtk smap/smapd to receive and >pre-process mail from the Internet. Well, with sendmail 8.7.y, smap won't work -- you have to choose one or the other. I don't recall off the top of my head what the bug is, but it keeps it from working with sendmail 8.7.y. The TIS guys don't seem to be particularly interested in keeping the fwtk up-to-date, either -- they have "real" work to do on that sort of stuff for Guantlet. >I've thought of numerous enhancements to smap that allow one to setup a >rules based type of processing of incoming mail. The first one I'd like to >implement is to reject mail which doesn't have a valid envelope sender. If >the mail can't be bounced back to the sender (for whatever reason) it won't >even be considered for delivery. How do you do this while holding the other side open? What if they have DNS timeouts? What if you have DNS timeouts? Then you're in serious violation of RFC 1123 and just about every other major Internet Email RFC in existance. Trust me, I've discussed this issue with Ned Freed (author of said 14 Internet Email RFCs) and Eric Allman (author of sendmail), and there's no easy solution to this problem. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 23 23:29:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA07256 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA07226 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA09340; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 01:47:03 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199609081706.KAA00898@thyme> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 01:07:40 -0400 To: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris), List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Blocking Domains Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:06 PM -0400 9/8/1996, Mary Morris wrote: I know this is kind of old, but I'd like to respond to it anyway. >Everyone here is talking about using sendmail to refuse to accept >email from specific domains. I'd like to understand the situation >a little better. > >First, sendmail doesn't read the header until after it receives the >message and this is something that requires a change of the SMTP >protocol to change. It isn't something that some email product, >sendmail or whatever can change. Correct? Nope. Put checks in LOCAL_RULE_0 for version 8 sendmail, and you can check the envelope information on the fly. Version 8.8 (now up to 8.8.2) integrates TCP-Wrappers with sendmail (if you compile & link it to do so), and you can then refuse connections based on connecting IP address/domain name, without having to use the alternative features now built in to sendmail to do something similar, but using rewrite rules instead (Eric gave you both choices). >Secondly, people are looking to block an entire system or domain. >Correct? Some just want to block a particular sender at a site. >Can anyone see a reason to not use firewall techniques to refuse >a connection to port 25 from specific systems or domains? By refusing >connection to a known email transit point, email can be denied >without ever receiving it to examine it. This of course does nothing >to the good domain with one bad user. I use a piece of software >called TCPD which refuses connection to any host in a hosts.deny >file for services. Yup. You refuse connections to badsite.com. The guys at badsite.com want to make sure they get past your checks, so they use goodsite.com as their mail relay (say, somebody like CompuServe.com). But you can't refuse all connections from goodsite.com. Now what do you do? BTW, you've got the same problems with integrating TCP-Wrappers with sendmail, or using the now integral features of sendmail that let you check the host IP address/domain name with rewrite rules. There are some basic flaws in the RFC 822 SMTP protocol, and they're simply impossible to eliminate if the guy at the other end gets sufficiently crafty. There *must* be legal action to permanently solve this problem. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 23 23:29:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA07344 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA07306 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA09371; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 01:47:40 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199609082000.NAA10815@ilinx.ilinx.com> References: <9609081827.AA20019@smoe.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 01:21:40 -0400 To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net, jeffw@smoe.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re[2]: Blocking Domains Cc: marym@Finesse.COM, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:00 PM -0400 9/8/1996, Brian J. Murrell wrote: >from the quill of jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) on scroll ><9609081827.AA20019@smoe.org> >> The problem here is that the spam source can simply direct the mail via >> an innocent third-party system, which will (most-likely) accept it and >> then forward it to you. The TCP connection will then be from a >> different host than the one you are blocking. > >Correct. But if this kind of change were to make it into stock sendmail >and be widely deployed, spammers would not have the third-party mailer >avenue available to them. A "third-party" we be forced into blocking known >spammer sites or be deemed a spammer site themselves, and have their mail >blockaided by all other sites employing the technique. Not good for >business. Do you know how many SunOS 4.1.x sites are still out there using something based on sendmail 4.x? Any/all of them can easily be used as mail relays. As well as anyone running OS/2 sendmail (ported by IBM, lots of functionality missing because the OS can't provide the necessary features). Or many of the other popular SMTP MTAs. No, folded into version 8 sendmail or not, we'd still be seriously in the minority. >This kind of thing would certainly cause people like AOL some grief >however. Before I go any further I would first like to say that I'm >pleased with the response of AOL whenever I complain about a spammer. They >are usually quite responsive and fast in terminating accounts. However >they also provide a haven for spammers with their "free-trial" diskettes >that go out every other week. We have seven million users. Any large site will have more crimnal types than smaller sites, but just think of the fun you'll have with WebTV and all those other 89 million U.S. citizens not yet on the 'net -- and you think AOL is bad? >Sites like AOL would be on a quite a few black lists and mail would be >refused because of the amount of spam which comes from them. Netcom would >be a candidate for my black list as well. I'm sure if users of AOL and >Netcom were changing providers because they couldn't get their mail to >where it was supposed to go because of a few bad apples, AOL and Netcom >would be forced to take other actions with the prevention of spam. What?? >I don't know. :-) Nope. Unless you're a huge site like CompuServe, a few small sites refusing to accept mail from us isn't really going to do much damage other than have your machines pounded into oblivion by all our very persistent connection attempts. And really large sites like CompuServe wouldn't dream of refusing us. I don't like AOL being used as a source of junk mail anymore than you do, but we do have to presume innocence (this is the U.S., after all), and we do deal with criminal types quickly (unlike certain other providers, who I submit should be the real focus of your connection refusals, if you really want to go that route). Now, if there were some laws with real teeth, the whole bloody problem would simply go away.... -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 24 08:09:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA00463 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 07:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.segue.com (gateway.segue.com [192.12.233.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id HAA00411 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 07:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from news@localhost) by gateway.segue.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) id KAA18154; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:38:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: gateway.segue.com: news set sender to using -f Received: from segue1.segue.com(192.12.23.1) by gateway.segue.com via smap (V1.3) id sma018140; Thu Oct 24 10:38:38 1996 Received: from [192.12.23.174] (natick.segue.com [192.12.23.174]) by segue1.segue.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA22745; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:38:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610241438.KAA22745@segue1.segue.com> To: Brad Knowles , "brian@ilinx.bctel.net" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Help with Forgeries Date: Thu, 24 Oct 96 10:35:13 -0500 From: Rich Lenihan X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v2.5.03 CC: "tcs@earthlink.net" , "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This may be veering off topic for the list, but could you elaborate on why sendmail 8.7.x doesn't work with smap? We've been using smap with 8.7.1 for a year now and it appears to be working OK. Am I missing something? -Rich -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Thursday, 24-Oct-96 01:14 AM From: Brad Knowles \ Internet: (brad@his.com) To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net \ Internet: (brian@ilinx.bctel.net) cc: tcs@earthlink.net \ Internet: (tcs@earthlink.net) cc: list- managers@GreatCircle.COM \ Internet: (list-managers@greatcircle.com) Subject: Re[2]: Help with Forgeries At 3:49 PM -0400 9/8/1996, Brian J. Murrell wrote: >from the quill of Brad Knowles on scroll > >> At 8:49 PM -0400 9/1/1996, Jody Boyd wrote: >> I know of no tools that let you refuse connections based on parts >> of the "body" of the message (including most of what you and I >> consider to be the headers) while the SMTP connection is open. > >Ah. Something I've given a bit of thought to lately. We usually will not >install Sendmail as the daemon to which the Internet talks. Too much of a >security risk. So we usually install TIS' fwtk smap/smapd to receive and >pre-process mail from the Internet. Well, with sendmail 8.7.y, smap won't work -- you have to choose one or the other. I don't recall off the top of my head what the bug is, but it keeps it from working with sendmail 8.7.y. The TIS guys don't seem to be particularly interested in keeping the fwtk up-to-date, either -- they have "real" work to do on that sort of stuff for Guantlet. -- Rich Lenihan System/Network Administrator rich@segue.com 617.796.1247 (voice) 617.796.1610 (fax) Segue Software, Inc. 1320 Centre Street Newton Centre, MA 02159 USA From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 24 08:38:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA05733 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 08:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pluto.man.net (pluto.man.net [198.53.163.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA05689 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 08:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pluto.man.net (8.6.12/1.37) id JAA11863; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:24:12 -0600 Message-Id: <199610241524.JAA11863@pluto.man.net> Subject: Mailers for list owners To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:24:11 -0500 (cdt) From: "Rick Duff" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am looking for a Windows based mailer which allows me (actually the owner of one of the lists I host) to add an Approved: header to the mail he generates. The problem in particular is he is running a moderated list using majordomo on a machine I administrate. Majordomo (at least) wants an approved header for the mail to go right out. I can do this in UNIX with elm and adding the header. This user of mine is using a PC on a dialing connection and is looking for mailer software which allows himi to add an Approved: header to the mail he writes. If this is too far off topic, I apologise. I figured this has to be a problem that has been encountered before by someone. :-) Rick.. -- | Rick Duff (rick@man.net) | Manitoba's Astra Network | | http://www.man.net | Internet Service Provider | | V.(204)987-7050 F.(204)987-7058 | for Winnipeg and the surrounding area| From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 24 09:25:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA10343 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from erinet.com (eri-shell.erinet.com [207.0.229.18]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA10279 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from timothy@localhost) by erinet.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) id MAA18798 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:06:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Finkenstadt Message-Id: <199610241606.MAA18798@erinet.com> Subject: EriNet.com mail problems To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:06:21 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199610241438.KAA22745@segue1.segue.com> from "Rich Lenihan" at Oct 24, 96 10:35:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings, List-Managers. EriNet.com suffered a minor drive problem which generated a lot of bounced email. Please do not remove any of my users if you received one of these bounces. Thanks, Tim Finkenstadt timothy@erinet.com EriNet Technical Support Staff From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 24 09:39:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA11103 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.ims.net (zippy.ims.net [204.120.4.70]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA11083 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isdn.ims.net (isdn.ims.net [156.46.217.21]) by zippy.ims.net (8.7.5/960916) with SMTP id LAA07798; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 11:15:28 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19961024111507.00a79d64@gateway> X-Sender: clear#ims.net@gateway X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 11:15:26 -0500 To: "Rick Duff" From: Mark Clear Subject: Re: Mailers for list owners Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eudora works just fine for approving Majordomo lists. Here's the instructions I give my list managers: 1. Use Eudora's REDIRECT function to address the message to the list address. 2. Add approved: at the top. 3. Leave a blank line. 4. Remove any Received: and Return-path: headers. 5. Send the message! -Mark Clear At 10:24 AM 10/24/96 -0500, Rick Duff wrote: >I am looking for a Windows based mailer which allows me (actually the >owner of one of the lists I host) to add an Approved: header to the >mail he generates. > >The problem in particular is he is running a moderated list using >majordomo on a machine I administrate. Majordomo (at least) wants an >approved header for the mail to go right out. I can do this in UNIX >with elm and adding the header. This user of mine is using a PC on a >dialing connection and is looking for mailer software which allows >himi to add an Approved: header to the mail he writes. > >If this is too far off topic, I apologise. I figured this has to be a >problem that has been encountered before by someone. :-) > >Rick.. > >-- >| Rick Duff (rick@man.net) | Manitoba's Astra Network | >| http://www.man.net | Internet Service Provider | >| V.(204)987-7050 F.(204)987-7058 | for Winnipeg and the surrounding area| > > From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 24 14:27:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA16366 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 14:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA16219 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 14:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (tibbs@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA13723; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 16:07:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199610242107.QAA13723@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: rick@man.net Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mailers for list owners In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:24:11 -0500 (cdt)" References: <199610241524.JAA11863@pluto.man.net> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.34.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 16:07:12 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Sorry this is off-topic here; majordomo-users would be a better place for Majordomo questions. Still, I prefer to answer in the forum in which the question was posed.] >>>>> "RD" == Rick Duff writes: RD> The problem in particular is he is running a moderated list using RD> majordomo on a machine I administrate. Majordomo (at least) wants an RD> approved header for the mail to go right out. Actually you can do it without adding anything to the headers. Get Majordomo 1.94 and read the list-owner-info document. We recognized all of the problems that people were having approving messages and so we rewrote the approval mechanisms and documented them properly. - J< From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 24 19:43:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA01013 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.213.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA00997 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brian@localhost) by ilinx.ilinx.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id TAA21362; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:37:12 -0700 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199610250237.TAA21362@ilinx.ilinx.com> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:37:11 -0700 (PDT) To: brad@his.com Cc: tcs@earthlink.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re[3]: Help with Forgeries In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3-960829-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of Brad Knowles on scroll > Well, with sendmail 8.7.y, smap won't work -- you have to choose > one or the other. I don't recall off the top of my head what the bug > is, but it keeps it from working with sendmail 8.7.y. Not at all true. This has been discussed in the fwtk mailing list and the consensus was that many people (including myself at multiple locations) are running sendmail 8.7.* and smap/smapd. > The TIS guys > don't seem to be particularly interested in keeping the fwtk > up-to-date, either -- they have "real" work to do on that sort of > stuff for Guantlet. First, if they were not updating Gauntlet to make a living, they would not have the time that they do (however little it is) to work on the toolkit. Making money is not an evil thing. Second, they are now in beta release with 2.0 of the toolkit. Sure, it's slow going, and their time on the toolkit is sparing, but they have responded to the pressure to update the toolkit. I think ideally they let the toolkit go to somebody with more time and effort to maintain it, but it's theirs to do with what they want. > How do you do this while holding the other side open? What if > they have DNS timeouts? What if you have DNS timeouts? Then you're > in serious violation of RFC 1123 and just about every other major > Internet Email RFC in existance. Yeah. Not being a wide open mail relay for anybody to bounce mail off of violates an RFC or two (so I understand), but Sendmail 8.8 let's you do it. I think there are parts of the Internet standards documents which are so out of date with respect to the Internet maturing from a neat expriment to a full-blown commerical entity that they are going to be violated. > Trust me, I've discussed this issue with Ned Freed (author of > said 14 Internet Email RFCs) and Eric Allman (author of sendmail), > and there's no easy solution to this problem. Yeah, I realize that. I think my statement was somewhat of a pipe-dream. If I were going to implement something like that it would be more directed at mail clients which are on networks which are serviced by the mail hub. There can be a certain amount of trust in the infrastructure of those networks where DNS timeouts and mail server uptime is under a certain amount of control. This kind of feature is much like ingress routing. Something a provider can do to be netfriendly by only distributing mail from it's customers which has legal return addresses. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 24 20:24:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA02446 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.213.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA02407 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brian@localhost) by ilinx.ilinx.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id TAA21388; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:48:34 -0700 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199610250248.TAA21388@ilinx.ilinx.com> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:48:34 -0700 (PDT) To: brad@his.com Cc: jeffw@smoe.org, marym@Finesse.COM, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re[3]: Blocking Domains In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3-960829-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of Brad Knowles on scroll > Do you know how many SunOS 4.1.x sites are still out there using > something based on sendmail 4.x? Any/all of them can easily be used > as mail relays. As well as anyone running OS/2 sendmail (ported by > IBM, lots of functionality missing because the OS can't provide the > necessary features). Or many of the other popular SMTP MTAs. > > No, folded into version 8 sendmail or not, we'd still be > seriously in the minority. Yeah, until peer and/or financial pressure is applied. > I don't like AOL being used as a source of junk mail anymore than > you do, but we do have to presume innocence (this is the U.S., after > all), and we do deal with criminal types quickly (unlike certain > other providers, who I submit should be the real focus of your > connection refusals, if you really want to go that route). Now, if > there were some laws with real teeth, the whole bloody problem would > simply go away.... Ah, yes. The other answer to the problem. :-) b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 24 22:54:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA01235 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 22:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA00994 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 22:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA03718; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 01:37:13 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610241438.KAA22745@segue1.segue.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 01:13:31 -0400 To: Rich Lenihan , "brian@ilinx.bctel.net" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Re[2]: Help with Forgeries Cc: "tcs@earthlink.net" , "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:35 AM -0400 10/24/1996, Rich Lenihan wrote: >This may be veering off topic for the list, but could you elaborate on why >sendmail 8.7.x doesn't work with smap? We've been using smap with 8.7.1 for >a year now and it appears to be working OK. Am I missing something? As I said, I don't remember the details. It may be something with later versions of sendmail 8.7 (such as 8.7.6, the most current secure/stable release available). Even with smap/smapd, there were significant feature enhancements between 8.7.1 and 8.7.3, and I would recommend you look into upgrading, and if you're going to upgrade to 8.7.3, you might as well upgrade to 8.7.6 and get some of those remaining buffer overrun problems fixed. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 24 23:02:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA00775 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 22:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA00747 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 22:38:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA03725; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 01:37:18 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610250237.TAA21362@ilinx.ilinx.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 01:23:19 -0400 To: "Brian J. Murrell" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re[3]: Help with Forgeries Cc: tcs@earthlink.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:37 PM -0400 10/24/1996, Brian J. Murrell wrote: >> Well, with sendmail 8.7.y, smap won't work -- you have to choose >> one or the other. I don't recall off the top of my head what the bug >> is, but it keeps it from working with sendmail 8.7.y. > >Not at all true. This has been discussed in the fwtk mailing list and the >consensus was that many people (including myself at multiple locations) are >running sendmail 8.7.* and smap/smapd. Which version of 8.7.y were you testing with? I proved this experimentally with 8.7.5 and both versions of smap/smapd I could find on the 'net, and discovered a very strange version numbering problem (the "earlier" numbered version is actually dated later and more up-to-date) among other things. I reported this and got no feedback whatsoever for more than a month, and that's when I contacted a friend of mine at TIS to ask about development on the fwtk. >First, if they were not updating Gauntlet to make a living, they would not >have the time that they do (however little it is) to work on the toolkit. >Making money is not an evil thing. True, making money is not inherently evil. However, I do believe that there is a certain amount of conflict of interest here between supporting the publicly available fwtk and the commercial product Gauntlet -- the fwtk becomes little more than a sales toy to get Gauntlet sold to the customer. Granted, Gauntlet is a really good firewall product, but I believe that their internal resource allocation to further development on fwtk is clearly at least partially oriented towards making sure that fwtk is zero drain on the manpower, and generates the maximum amount of sales $$$ for Gauntlet. > Second, they are now in beta release >with 2.0 of the toolkit. Sure, it's slow going, and their time on the >toolkit is sparing, but they have responded to the pressure to update the >toolkit. I think ideally they let the toolkit go to somebody with more >time and effort to maintain it, but it's theirs to do with what they want. With the things they appear to be about to start doing with contributed (and unsupported) modifications, maybe this will improve. However, knowing people who work there, I can clearly see a business decision to do virtually no work whatsoever on the fwtk. >Yeah. Not being a wide open mail relay for anybody to bounce mail off of >violates an RFC or two (so I understand), but Sendmail 8.8 let's you do it. I'd like to see the RFC or the section that says this. You better believe that our machines are going to be seriously clamped down, and if we have problems with a site that isn't, well, we'll do whatever we have to in order to protect our system and our users from abusive or nonresponsive networks (witness the recent complaints about InterRamp). -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 26 15:08:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA08495 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 26 Oct 1996 14:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rip.psg.com (rip.psg.com [147.28.0.39]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA08486 for ; Sat, 26 Oct 1996 14:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rip.psg.com id m0vHGfk-0007zpC; Sat, 26 Oct 96 14:53 PDT (Smail3.1.29.1#1) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 26 Oct 96 14:53 PDT From: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) To: Electronic Postmaster Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: CompuServe error handling broken References: <961026213722_515664.456256_CHU80-19@CompuServe.COM> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Your mail system is broken in that it sent a mailing list bounce to the header From: address as opposed to the envelope MAIL FROM: address as specified in RFC 1123 section 5.3.3. You may want to fix this. Certainly thousands of people out here in the normal universe wish you would. randy > Return-Path: > Received: from psg.com (147.28.0.62) by rip.psg.com via smtp > for > id m0vHGWv-0007zpC; Sat, 26 Oct 96 14:44 PDT (Smail3.1.29.1#1) > Received: from hil-img-3.compuserve.com (149.174.177.133) by psg.com via smtp > for randy@rip.psg.com > id m0vHGWs-00010SC; Sat, 26 Oct 96 14:44 PDT (Smail3.1.29.1#2) > Received: by hil-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) > id RAA02226; Sat, 26 Oct 1996 17:44:29 -0400 > Message-ID: <961026213722_515664.456256_CHU80-19@CompuServe.COM> > Date: 26 Oct 96 17:37:23 EDT > From: Electronic Postmaster > Comments: Returned from: <103311.571@CompuServe.COM> > Message-Type: Delivery Report > To: Randy Bush > Subject: Undeliverable message > > Your message could not be delivered for the following reason: > > Mailbox 103311.571 is currently full. > Please resend your message at a later time. > > --- Returned message --- > > Sender: owner-nanog@merit.edu > Received: from merit.edu (merit.edu [35.1.1.42]) by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) > id RAA16627; Sat, 26 Oct 1996 17:37:10 -0400 > Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by merit.edu (8.7.6/merit-2.0) with SMTP id RAA22843; Sat, 26 Oct 1996 17:25:08 -0400 (EDT) > Received: by merit.edu (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 26 Oct 1996 17:25:05 -0400 > Received: (from daemon@localhost) by merit.edu (8.7.6/merit-2.0) id RAA22831 for nanog-outgoing; Sat, 26 Oct 1996 17:25:05 -0400 (EDT) > Received: from rip.psg.com (root@rip.psg.com [147.28.0.39]) by merit.edu (8.7.6/merit-2.0) with SMTP id RAA22825 for ; Sat, 26 Oct 1996 17:25:02 -0400 (EDT) > Received: by rip.psg.com > id m0vHGDe-0007zpC; Sat, 26 Oct 96 14:24 PDT (Smail3.1.29.1#1) > Message-Id: > Date: Sat, 26 Oct 96 14:24 PDT > From: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) > To: "Dorian R. Kim" > Cc: Michael Dillon , nanog@merit.edu > Subject: Re: Root-64 Weekly Status Report (fwd) > References: > > Sender: owner-nanog@merit.edu [ message body deleted, but not by CI$ ] From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 27 11:41:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA27455 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:32:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.seanet.com (dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA27433 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:32:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from kasaty.seanet.com (kasaty.seanet.com [204.182.66.216]) by mx.seanet.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA11872 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:31:21 -0800 (PST) From: kasaty@seanet.com (Peter Kasaty) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Web-based archives considered harmful? Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 19:30:07 GMT Message-ID: <327ab327.9110190@mx.seanet.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk *IS* there any collection of information out there about setting up a web-based archive for a mailing list? (My mailing list uses listproc 6.0b.) Thanks, -- Peter Kasaty kasaty@seanet.com co-listowner of Belarus discussion list On Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:25:41 +0100 (BST), Manar Hussain wrote: << snip >> >On a related note: > >Is there a list anywhere of examples of web based archiving? We've spent (are >spending) a fair while putting together a fairly sophisticated/customised system >on top of majordomo (it makes the list a web conference area too) and I'd like >to see if there's anything else there to compare it with we haven't seen yet. > >Manar > > From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 27 13:25:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA03957 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:14:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from host1.microsped.com (microsped.com [198.78.250.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA03927 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:14:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:14:25 -0800 (PST) From: neill@microsped.com Received: from [198.78.250.135] by microsped.com id 819c0.wrk; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:12:56 CST Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19961027161325.3d0f853c@microsped.com> X-Sender: neill@microsped.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Best Mailing List Software For A Host Startup Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am considering the possibility of setting up a new server to be used for mailing lists. I have been looking at some of the software options and comparing listserv, listproc, majordomo, and some of the smaller software packages. I wanted to get some input from any server hosts or mailing list owners on what software you might choose if you were doing a startup. I hear good and bad things about virtually every software and I would like to pick a product that works well and is economically feasible. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Robert W. Neill, Jr. Neill Online Robert W. Neill, Jr. ~ aj148@lafn.org Neill Online Voicemail 800-484-8695 (Ext 0141) ~ Fax 800-484-8441 (Ext 8895) From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 27 18:12:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA20197 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:03:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eskimo.com (mail.eskimo.com [204.122.16.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA20187 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:03:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA26923; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:03:01 -0800 (PST) From: Berg Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.6) id SAA05390; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:02:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:02:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199610280202.SAA05390@eskimo.com> To: neill@microsped.com Subject: Re: Best Mailing List Software For A Host Startup Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, IMHO, Smartlist is the best one, and I've used Listproc and Majordomo before. From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 28 00:41:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA02864 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 00:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [194.154.62.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id AAA02824 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 00:38:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk [194.154.62.8] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 0.53 #1) id E0vHnDF-0003I2-00; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:38:25 +0000 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:38:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Manar Hussain To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Web-based archives considered harmful? In-Reply-To: <327ab327.9110190@mx.seanet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >*IS* there any collection of information out there about setting up a >web-based archive for a mailing list? (My mailing list uses listproc >6.0b.) apart from what we've done, all I know about is hypermail - which is pretty good as an archiver. Manar From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 28 10:42:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA23073 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:36:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [198.77.86.217]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA23065 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:36:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (zach@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id NAA07819; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:38:48 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:38:47 -0500 (EST) From: Zach Nobel X-Sender: zach@solstice To: Manar Hussain cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Web-based archives considered harmful? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Manar Hussain wrote: > >*IS* there any collection of information out there about setting up a > >web-based archive for a mailing list? (My mailing list uses listproc > >6.0b.) > > apart from what we've done, all I know about is hypermail - which is pretty good > as an archiver. > > Manar You might take a look at Mhonarc, which is what we moved to after using hypermail for a while). Check out the following URL for an example: http://www.crest.org/online/list-archives/index.html Here's the location of FAQ's etc. on Mhonarc: http://www.oac.uci.edu/indiv/ehood/mhonarc.html Zach _________ Zachariah Nobel, Assistant in Internet Services Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology (CREST) zach@crest.org From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 28 11:02:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA24598 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:51:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [194.154.62.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA24529 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:51:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk [194.154.62.8] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 0.53 #1) id E0vHwm4-00055G-00; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:51:00 +0000 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:51:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Manar Hussain To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Web-based archives considered harmful? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >You might take a look at Mhonarc, which is what we moved to after using >hypermail for a while). Check out the following URL for an example: why did you move?? It's look somewhat ... well simpler ... which is one reason to perhaps not get HyperMail going in the first place but once you had it set up ... ? Manar From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 28 13:42:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA10592 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:27:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from taz.hyperreal.com (taz.hyperreal.com [204.152.144.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id NAA10556 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by taz.hyperreal.com (8.7.6/V2.0) with SMTP id NAA28513; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:27:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:27:39 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: hotmail.com problems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is anyone else having trouble getting mail sent to hotmail.com? I've had connections to their mail server die in mid-connection for the last three weeks now. Here's a sample "conversation", as reported by sendmail -v: "Sunshine Bear" ,"Tom Mitchel" ,"Israel Bate" ... Connecting to mail.hotmail.com. via smtp... 220 constitution.hotmail.com Server SMTP ready at Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:24:35 -0800 >>> HELO taz.hyperreal.com 250 constitution.hotmail.com Hello taz.hyperreal.com >>> MAIL From: 250 Ok >>> RCPT To: 250 Ok >>> RCPT To: "Tom Mitchel" ... Deferred: Connection reset by peer during client RCPT with mail.hotmail.com. >>> RCPT To: "Sunshine Bear" ... Deferred >>> DATA >>> QUIT "Israel Bate" ... Deferred I've email root@, postmaster@, bugs@, comments@, sales@, and info@hotmail.com without an answer. Tons of folks on my mailing lists are subscribed there, but if I have to do a global removal and forbid future subscribers. Email *from* hotmail folks to my machine work fine; in fact, messages with only one or two recipients work fine too, which is how I was able to send mail to folks @hotmail.com to tell them about the problem. Is anyone else seeing this? I'd like to think it wasn't just me or my machine... Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- brian@hyperreal.com http://www.apache.org http://www.organic.com/jobs From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 29 05:27:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA11124 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 05:14:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from nmho05u.rohmhaas.com (nmho05u.rohmhaas.com [136.141.2.7]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id FAA11117 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 05:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by nmho05u.rohmhaas.com; id IAA04195; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:14:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from monte.br.rohmhaas.com(136.141.238.46) by nmho05u.rohmhaas.com via smap (V3.1.1) id xma004059; Tue, 29 Oct 96 08:14:18 -0500 Received: from brthp.br.rohmhaas.com by monte.br.rohmhaas.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA77237; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:13:49 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19961029130231.009cc0e0@136.141.238.46> X-Sender: rs0thp@136.141.238.46 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:02:31 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Tom Pierce Subject: Re: Web-based archives considered harmful? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 19:30:07 GMT >From: kasaty@seanet.com (Peter Kasaty) >Subject: Re: Web-based archives considered harmful? > >*IS* there any collection of information out there about setting up a >web-based archive for a mailing list? (My mailing list uses listproc >6.0b.) > >Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:38:25 +0000 (GMT) >From: Manar Hussain >apart from what we've done, all I know about is hypermail - which is pretty good >as an archiver. I have used for a year or more, MHonArc. from Earl Hood. It is quite nice and fits well with Majordomo (just an extra alias) www.oac.uci.edu/indiv/ehood/mhonarc.html to /etc/aliases, I add a $list-arch to $list-outgoing and add the line $list-arch:"|/usr/local/mhonarc -add -quiet -outdir /usr/local/mail-arch/$list" PS I use the realmailng list name for the $list ... hint. ----- Sincerely, Tom Pierce - THPierce@RohmHaas.Com - Computational Chemist "These opinions are those of the writer and not the Rohm and Haas Company." From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 29 08:27:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA24787 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca [142.2.20.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA24759 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:17:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (950221.405.SGI.8.6.10/920502.SGI.AUTO) for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM id MAA11837; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:16:36 -0400 From: sysop@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Message-Id: <199610291616.MAA11837@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Subject: Anyone run into Bigfoot before? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:16:14 -0400 (AST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I sent a message to a chap who was hitting my lists with a series of WHO commands (this is Majordomo for finding out who is on a list). I got the following reply. Does anyone know about this Bigfoot.com operation? We haven't suppressed the who command because finding out who is on our lists can have legitimate scientific value, but I can't decide whether this is a reasonable use or a setup for a spam. Bill Silvert Forwarded message: Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:08:20 +0000 From: Jim Hoffman Subject: Re: Your behaviour on this list Reply-to: Jim@Bigfoot.com Comments: Authenticated sender is Bigfoot is a global e-mail directory. Please check out our site at http;//Bigfoot.com We have very strong policies on privacy and do not sell, rent, loan or allow commercial use of the directory. It is a free reference resource for email users. > We have received 20 messages from you containing the following commands: > > WHO bsim-users > WHO ecnasap-dad > WHO czm > WHO czm-digest > WHO phycotoxins > WHO phycotoxins-digest > WHO sgi > WHO cstb > WHO cstb-digest > WHO benthos > WHO aczisc > WHO coastal > WHO wsb > WHO eim > WHO eim-digest > WHO fisheries > WHO fisheries-digest > WHO halifax > WHO theoretical-ecology > WHO theoretical-ecology-digest > > which indicates that you are collecting Email addresses at random. > Please explain this behaviour and inform us what you intend to do with > this information. ============================================================== | Jim Hoffman Jim@Bigfoot.com |------------------------------------------------------------ | BIGFOOT http://bigfoot.com | solving problems for the e-mail user |------------------------------------------------------------ | 1841 Broadway #1005 Voice: 212-262-1118 | New York, NY 10023 Fax: 212-262-1079 ============================================================== The Bigfoot Directory over 5 million e-mail addresses over 112 million phone listings Bigfoot For Life free permanent e-mail address The Bigfoot Privacy List let us know if you do not want junk e-mail ============================================================== BIOME SysOp, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2. Tel. (902)426-1577 From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 29 22:58:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA12538 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 22:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA12513 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 22:46:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA19653; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 01:31:22 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19961027161325.3d0f853c@microsped.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 01:45:01 -0500 To: neill@microsped.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Best Mailing List Software For A Host Startup Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:14 PM -0500 10/27/1996, neill@microsped.com wrote: >I am considering the possibility of setting up a new server >to be used for mailing lists. I have been looking at some of >the software options and comparing listserv, listproc, majordomo, >and some of the smaller software packages. I've used SmartList, and I'm one of those who swear at it, not by it. If you're doing a large/professional list, I'd use ListServ. If it's small or for personal use, I'd do Majordomo (and I currently manage several lists of each type). I'm told that Listproc should be virtually identical to ListServ (it was originally called Listserv for Unix, until they actually ported the real ListServ), but don't know anything more about it one way or the other. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 29 23:44:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA15604 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:35:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eskimo.com (mail.eskimo.com [204.122.16.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id XAA15597 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:35:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA11464; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:35:29 -0800 (PST) From: Berg Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.6) id XAA03817; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:35:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:35:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199610300735.XAA03817@eskimo.com> To: brad@his.com Subject: Re: Best Mailing List Software For A Host Startup Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, Majordomo has a nasty little bug in it. When sending out a post, it starts at the top of the subscriber list, and if it hits a bad address halfway down the list, it aborts, then starts over. On a large list, this can mean that half a dozen bad addresses out of 500 subscribers can cut off 400 of them. Listproc is an ok piece of code, but it has drawbacks too, mainly in the fact that it (at least for me) caused a lot more system load than it should. From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 30 07:02:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA10416 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:44:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from pcusa01.ecunet.org (pcusa01.ecunet.org [206.115.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id GAA10406 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:44:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Best Mailing List Software For A Host Startup To: Berg Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:24:06 -0500 (EST) From: Merrill Cook Cc: brad@his.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199610300735.XAA03817@eskimo.com> from "Berg" at Oct 29, 96 11:35:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9610300924.aa10001@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From Berg: > > Well, Majordomo has a nasty little bug in it. When sending out a post, > it starts at the top of the subscriber list, and if it hits a bad address > halfway down the list, it aborts, then starts over. On a large list, this > can mean that half a dozen bad addresses out of 500 subscribers can cut off > 400 of them. Majordomo passes =one= copy of the note to the MTA, which processes it to the list. It sounds like you are describing behavior of the MTA, not Majordomo. -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org or MERRILL COOK on Ecunet/PresbyNet http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa.html -+- From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 30 08:31:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA19297 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:25:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA19233; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:25:44 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610300735.XAA03817@eskimo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:25:46 -0800 To: Berg , brad@his.com From: Brent Chapman Subject: Re: Best Mailing List Software For A Host Startup Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:35 PM -0800 10/29/96, Berg wrote: > Well, Majordomo has a nasty little bug in it. When sending out a post, >it starts at the top of the subscriber list, and if it hits a bad address >halfway down the list, it aborts, then starts over. On a large list, this >can mean that half a dozen bad addresses out of 500 subscribers can cut off >400 of them. No, whatever mailer you're using has that bug. Majordomo doesn't do message delivery; it invokes whatever mailer you point it at. -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 30 08:44:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA18464 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:18:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from camco2.celestial.com (camco2.celestial.com [192.136.111.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA18391 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:18:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by camco2.celestial.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #8) id m0vIdKQ-000RV9C; Wed, 30 Oct 96 08:17 PST Message-Id: From: bill@celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Subject: Re: Best Mailing List Software For A Host Startup To: berg@eskimo.com (Berg) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:17:18 -0800 (PST) Cc: brad@his.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199610300735.XAA03817@eskimo.com> from "Berg" at Oct 29, 96 11:35:25 pm Reply-To: bill@Celestial.COM Organization: Celestial Software, Mercer Island, WA 98040 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > > Well, Majordomo has a nasty little bug in it. When sending out a post, >it starts at the top of the subscriber list, and if it hits a bad address >halfway down the list, it aborts, then starts over. On a large list, this >can mean that half a dozen bad addresses out of 500 subscribers can cut off >400 of them. > I doubt that this is majordomo because it hands off the list delivery to sendmail for processing. I have seen many instances where sendmail would exhibit behaviour like this. There was a problem at uunet several years ago where their volume caused sendmail to barf regularly and on restart would generate hundreds of duplicates to large mailing lists (this was when I originally put in the message-id checking on all our local lists to trap duplicates). Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Systems, Inc. UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 2835 82nd Avenue S.E. S-100 FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ Government spending? I don't know what it's all about. I don't know any more about this thing than an economist does, and, God knows, he doesn't know much. -- Will Rogers From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 30 08:47:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA19679 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA19658 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:28:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (tibbs@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA07770; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:28:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199610301628.KAA07770@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: berg@eskimo.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Best Mailing List Software For A Host Startup In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:35:25 -0800 (PST)" References: <199610300735.XAA03817@eskimo.com> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.34.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:28:11 -0600 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Sorry for cluttering the list with more Majordomo-specific stuff, but this must be answered lest people get the wrong idea.] >>>>> "B" == Berg writes: B> Well, Majordomo has a nasty little bug in it. When sending out a post, B> it starts at the top of the subscriber list, and if it hits a bad B> address halfway down the list, it aborts, then starts over. You're joking, right? Majordomo does not do this, at least not if it's installed properly. This would be completely ludicrous behavior for any mailing list manager. Besides, if you have a problem like this, you should tell the Majordomo developers instead for waiting for us to find you making these kind of allegations somewhere. You should be prepared to give system specifics, like if you're running Linux and the version of Sendmail that has the locking bug. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 30 10:00:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA27388 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:42:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [198.77.86.217]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA27380 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:42:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (zach@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA10496 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:44:21 -0500 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:44:21 -0500 (EST) From: Zach Nobel X-Sender: zach@solstice To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Web-based archives - MHonarc, and Hypermail ctd. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >You might take a look at Mhonarc, which is what we moved to after using > >hypermail for a while). Check out the following URL for an example: > > why did you move?? It's look somewhat ... well simpler ... which is one reason > to perhaps not get HyperMail going in the first place but once you had it set up I'm not completely sure, as the conversion occurred before I took over maintenance of lists this year. However, I asked the previous list archive maintainer why he switched from hypermail, and here's what he came up with: yeah - about every week or so hypermail would choke inexplicably on an archived message's header and coredump every time a new message arrived and it had to recompile the index (!). As the docs explicitly stated that hypermail was not liikely to undergo significant upgrades, and i couldn't find anyone else with the problem, mhonrc seemed like a good solution, especially given it's enhanced customizability. You can't really (unless there's an upgrade) tweek the appearance of the file generaetd by hypermail. i'd be happy to use HM if these things didn't exist because it's faster (being a compiled C program) than mhonarc, a perl script. Aside: I've been really pleased with Mhonarc, and have found several useful features (such as not having to redefine all the configuration parameters each time we update the index) that make using Mhonarc quite easy. The following URL details the specs on Mhonarc: http://www.oac.uci.edu/indiv/ehood/MHonArc/doc/mhonarc.html regards, Zach _________ Zachariah Nobel, Assistant in Internet Services Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology (CREST) zach@crest.org From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 30 12:43:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA14286 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:32:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from alaska.ktn.net (alaska.ktn.net [206.159.13.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA14255 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:31:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from John (ktn-ts1-p02.ktn.net [206.159.13.56]) by alaska.ktn.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA06814 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:30:50 -0900 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:30:50 -0900 Message-Id: <199610302030.LAA06814@alaska.ktn.net> X-Sender: enoch@alaska.ktn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "John W. Redelfs" Subject: Linux or NT? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I want to replace my "piece of garbage" Windows 95 operating system for something that doesn't crash twice a day. I've got to decide between Windows NT and Linux. Each have their advantages and disadvantages, but my primary interest is in serving email lists. Does that mean I have to go with Linux and Majordomo? Or can I do something as well with NT? Inquiring minds want to know. Sincerely, John W. Redelfs, enoch@ktn.net From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 30 13:20:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA16146 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:56:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from aeolus.ecy.wa.gov (aeolus.ecy.wa.gov [165.151.26.150]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA16128 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:56:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from clint@localhost) by aeolus.ecy.wa.gov (8.7.1/8.7.1) id MAA17481; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:56:29 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Bowman Message-Id: <199610302056.MAA17481@aeolus.ecy.wa.gov> Subject: Re: Linux or NT? To: enoch@ktn.net (John W. Redelfs) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:56:29 PST Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199610302030.LAA06814@alaska.ktn.net>; from "John W. Redelfs" at Oct 30, 96 11:30 am X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 212.2] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm not sure what you mean by "do I have to go with Linux and Majordomo?" If you don't want to learn another operating system then stick with MS and use NT. On the other hand Linux is pretty stable and the required tools are right at hand. -- Clint Bowman INTERNET: clint@ecy.wa.gov Air Quality Modeler INTERNET: clint@math.utah.edu Department of Ecology VOICE: (360) 407-6815 PO Box 47600 FAX: (360) 407-6802 Olympia, WA 98504-7600 From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 30 13:33:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA17946 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:14:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from llama.swcp.com (llama.swcp.com [198.59.115.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA17923 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:14:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by llama.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA18089 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:14:03 -0700 Message-Id: <199610302114.OAA18089@llama.swcp.com> Subject: Linux or NT? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:14:01 -0700 (MST) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I want to replace my "piece of garbage" Windows 95 operating system for > something that doesn't crash twice a day. I've got to decide between > Windows NT and Linux. Each have their advantages and disadvantages, but my > primary interest is in serving email lists. Does that mean I have to go > with Linux and Majordomo? Or can I do something as well with NT? There are people out there using majordomo under NT, but to my (quite possibly woefully uninformed) ears the whole thing sounds like a big fat stinky hack. If I were in your shoes I'd probably go with Linux. (Please note that this isn't an anti-Windows or anti-NT screed -- I use 95 and NT all the time, and both of them do the jobs I want them to do. But if your primary interest is really in serving email lists I suspect the whole process is going to be a lot more straightforward under Linux.) -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 30 14:15:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA23062 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:03:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamp.hampshire.edu (hamp.hampshire.edu [192.33.12.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA22975 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:03:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.150.72.86] (noho-us216.javanet.com [206.150.72.86]) by hamp.hampshire.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA14972 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:03:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:03:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610300900.BAA20978@miles.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Michelle Murrain Subject: Re: Best Mailing List Software For A Host Startup Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>I am considering the possibility of setting up a new server >>to be used for mailing lists. I have been looking at some of >>the software options and comparing listserv, listproc, majordomo, >>and some of the smaller software packages. > > I've used SmartList, and I'm one of those who swear at it, not by >it. If you're doing a large/professional list, I'd use ListServ. If >it's small or for personal use, I'd do Majordomo (and I currently >manage several lists of each type). > > I'm told that Listproc should be virtually identical to ListServ >(it was originally called Listserv for Unix, until they actually >ported the real ListServ), but don't know anything more about it one >way or the other. I've run lists using Listproc, Listserv (older version), and SmartList. I've found smartlist to work best for my medium-sized (300 folk) lists. I took a stab at Majordomo at one point, but I knew zero perl, and was pretty new at list management. Smartlist, at that point, was the better choice. However, I've heard folks really like majordomo, and now that I have more experience with perl, I might try it again. The advantage of listproc, majordomo or smartlist is that they are still free, whereas listserv costs bucks. (I heard about "listserv lite" which is a freeware version of listserv?) Anyway, it really is a matter of preference. Try one, and see if it works for you. It also depends upon your access to tweaking the system. I don't know which ones work better in situations where one might not either be the sysop, or know the sysop well. Michelle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu Home page URL -> http://persephone.hampshire.edu/~mpm Minority Health listowner (minhlth-request@persephone.hampshire.edu) Health Matrix listowner (hmatrix-l-request@persephone.hampshire.edu) sci.med.aids FAQ maintainer/co-moderator (http://persephone.hampshire.edu/aids/aidsfaq.html) From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 30 14:41:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA25876 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:34:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eskimo.com (mail.eskimo.com [204.122.16.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA25842 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:34:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA09716; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:34:24 -0800 (PST) From: Berg Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.6) id OAA04204; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:32:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:32:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199610302232.OAA04204@eskimo.com> To: bill@celestial.com Subject: Re: Best Mailing List Software For A Host Startup Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, I am a listowner, but I don't run the mail machine...but I *can* tell you that changing from majordomo to listproc solved the problems majordomo was having, even with no changes to sendmail at all. From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 30 14:48:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA25953 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA25935 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:35:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id OAA04797; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:35:12 -0800 Received: from llama.swcp.com(198.59.115.19) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma004793; Wed Oct 30 14:35:00 1996 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by llama.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA18089 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:14:03 -0700 Message-Id: <199610302114.OAA18089@llama.swcp.com> Subject: Linux or NT? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:14:01 -0700 (MST) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I want to replace my "piece of garbage" Windows 95 operating system for > something that doesn't crash twice a day. I've got to decide between > Windows NT and Linux. Each have their advantages and disadvantages, but my > primary interest is in serving email lists. Does that mean I have to go > with Linux and Majordomo? Or can I do something as well with NT? There are people out there using majordomo under NT, but to my (quite possibly woefully uninformed) ears the whole thing sounds like a big fat stinky hack. If I were in your shoes I'd probably go with Linux. (Please note that this isn't an anti-Windows or anti-NT screed -- I use 95 and NT all the time, and both of them do the jobs I want them to do. But if your primary interest is really in serving email lists I suspect the whole process is going to be a lot more straightforward under Linux.) -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 30 15:11:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA28972 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from itw.com (rsk.itw.com [206.138.122.70]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA28840 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:59:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by itw.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id RAA28335; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:55:08 -0500 (EST) From: Rich Kulawiec Message-Id: <199610302255.RAA28335@itw.com> Subject: Re: Linux or NT? To: enoch@ktn.net (John W. Redelfs) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:53:26 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199610302030.LAA06814@alaska.ktn.net> from "John W. Redelfs" at Oct 30, 1996 11:30:50 AM Reply-To: rsk@itw.com Organization: GSP X-Last-River: Farmington, MA X-Last-CD: Moxy Fruvous, "Bargainville" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I want to replace my "piece of garbage" Windows 95 operating system for >something that doesn't crash twice a day. I've got to decide between >Windows NT and Linux. Each have their advantages and disadvantages, but my >primary interest is in serving email lists. Does that mean I have to go >with Linux and Majordomo? Or can I do something as well with NT? Use Linux, because you not only can get your hands on majordomo, you can get your hands on other tools that are useful for dealing with email: sendmail, elm, mh, exmh, procmail, and so on. (In fact, most of those already come with Linux.) There's another reason as well: it's fairly hard to predict what the Next Big Thing will be in the world of the Internet, or more specifically for your application, in the world of Internet mail. But given the last 15 years of history, it's a good bet that it will show up on Unix platforms first. If you'd like to give yourself maximum flexibility for the future, so that you can change rapidly with the times if you need to, go with Linux. --Rsk From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 30 16:59:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA14986 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:47:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.64.112]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA14958 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:46:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199610310046.QAA14958@miles.greatcircle.com> To: enoch@ktn.net cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:46:03 EST Subject: Re: Linux or NT? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I want to replace my "piece of garbage" Windows 95 operating system for >something that doesn't crash twice a day. I've got to decide between >Windows NT and Linux. Each have their advantages and disadvantages, but my >primary interest is in serving email lists. Does that mean I have to go >with Linux and Majordomo? Or can I do something as well with NT? LISTSERV is available for NT. See http://www.lsoft.com. From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 31 03:26:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id DAA13074 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 03:12:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id DAA13067 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 03:11:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199610311111.DAA13067@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 3217; Thu, 31 Oct 96 12:09:24 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 4884; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:09:24 +0100 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:08:05 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Linux or NT? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, "John W. Redelfs" In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:30:50 -0900 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk See: http://www.lsoft.com/ltop/ltop-today.html (note: the unix sites that say "+ LSMTP" have a NT box on the side to actually deliver all this mail) http://www.lsoft.com/listserv.stm#TOP1 :-) Eric From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 31 07:13:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA23260 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id GAA23253 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:47:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199610311447.GAA23253@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 4319; Thu, 31 Oct 96 15:44:23 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 7195; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:44:22 +0100 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:10:04 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Best Mailing List Software For A Host Startup To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:03:29 -0500 (EST) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:03:29 -0500 (EST) Michelle Murrain said: >(I heard about "listserv lite" which is a freeware version of listserv?) "LISTSERV Lite" is a new product that will be released soon (we just want to release LISTSERV 1.8c first - I'm writing the release notes now). It is basically a subset of LISTSERV, which will be renamed to "LISTSERV Classic" when the new product is launched. LISTSERV Lite is much cheaper and is targeted at sites which have gotten connected recently and really have no idea what this mailing list stuff is, since the press doesn't talk about it much it can't be very useful, but you never know. The least you could say is that they wouldn't know what to do with LISTSERV's full functionality; they're the kind of customers who call to ask how much data you can store in 1M of disk space (literally) :-) Similarly, there are thousands of smaller organizations that just don't need the full functionality of LISTSERV and are reluctant to pay for it. "LISTSERV Lite Free Edition" is a free version of LISTSERV Lite that is limited to 10 lists of up to 500 subscribers each. It may not be used for commercial purposes or resold/bundled in commercial applications, but otherwise it doesn't cost anything and the license won't expire. To run more lists, you can install multiple copies on multiple machines. The assumption is that this will give people a "soft" incentive to buy the commercial version once they've got 4-5 machines to look after when 1 would be enough. Organizations that positively don't have a buck (and in particular universities in third world countries) can just keep installing more copies and we won't mind. What would upset us though is if someone used the Free Edition to make money, either directly or more cleverly. Especially spammers (it's one of the reasons we have a 500 subscriber restriction). It took a long, long fight with marketing to make the Free Edition happen, and it was all centered on whether we could prevent commercial usage (and *ensure* no usage by spammers). I can't say that *all* our marketing folks are fully convinced, but personally I don't doubt that such abuse will be self-policing, ie if someone tries to use the Free Edition to make a quick buck, the users will get so upset that the perpetrator will think twice about trying it again :-) The Free Edition adds a blurb to welcome messages (NOT to list postings) to say that it is a free copy not to be used for commercial purposes, and the logo used on the web archive interface also says "Free Edition" in red letters and links to the usage policy. Hopefully this should be enough to make users aware that this is not paid for and they should refuse to pay for any service provided through this license, and engage the flame thrower instead :-) Currently you can download a preview of the Free Edition from our web site, although it's well hidden. The idea was to get a trickle of users and see if there are any problems. The code is the same, in fact you can upgrade to the commercial version or to LISTSERV Classic just by swapping license keys, but the packaging is different, so we wanted to be careful. The only complaints were that people had to download the manuals separately, which is because it is a pain in the butt to make a decent ASCII version from a text processor, so we will only do this once when "closing" 1.8c. For now, this comes with the 1.8b manuals, which indeed are outdated. Anyway, the URL is: http://www.lsoft.com/listserv-lite.html This has info about the differences between Lite and Classic, and links to the preview download area. Not all unixes are included in the preview, and neither is Win95, but this will all be added when the product is released. The manuals are on FTP.LSOFT.COM, cd LISTSERV/Beta-1.8c. Eric From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 31 10:26:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA08064 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:17:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from chinet.chinet.com.chinet.com (chinet.chinet.com [206.158.147.18]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA08047 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:17:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by chinet.chinet.com.chinet.com (8.6.10/SMI-4.1) id SAA03107; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:17:33 GMT Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:17:32 -0600 (CST) From: "Adam H. Kerman" To: list-managers Subject: LISTSERV-Lite (was Best Mailing List Software For A Host Startup) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Michelle Murrain >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:03:29 -0500 (EST) >The advantage of listproc, majordomo or smartlist is that they are still >free, whereas listserv costs bucks. (I heard about "listserv lite" which is a >freeware version of listserv?) LISTSERV-Lite is not freeware! It has many fewer features than LISTSERV. Particularly, it is missing the spam-detection features, and the group-moderation features. (LISTSERV has the ability to distribute moderation duties among a group of moderators for an active list.) LISTSERV-Lite is a commercial application aimed at management of lists of no more than a few hundred users. But, it still has LISTSERV's main functions: of bundling together outbound traffic aimed at specific domains, to reduce your own system's overhead. Next year, Eric Thomas, the author, has promised to make free permanent licenses to use LISTSERV-Lite available to people who are specifically not in the business of selling mailing list management services. However, there are severe restrictions on this. You may not manage more than 10 lists. You may not be a membership organization that offers messages as a benefit of membership. You may not convert your newsletter to a mailing list. Obviously, the latter restrictions will simply be on the honor system. Mr. Thomas has said that support for the "free" version of LISTSERV-Lite will be next to nonexistant. However, when I was having trouble with an evaluation copy, he personally sent me a response! LISTSERV-Lite has been ported to some, but not all operating systems. There are versions for VMS, 2 for NT, but only a handful of Unices. In contrast, LISTSERV has been ported to 13 flavors of Unix! The evaluation copies expire at the end of the year. ftp.lsoft.com, LISTSERV-Lite directory http://www.lsoft.com/listserv-lite.html From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 31 11:46:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA14686 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:29:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA14647 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1); Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:33:04 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:33:04 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Subject: Re: Best Mailing List Software For A Host Startup Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 17:03 10/30/96, Michelle Murrain said: >experience with perl, I might try it again. The advantage of listproc, >majordomo or smartlist is that they are still free, whereas listserv costs >bucks. ListProc 6.x is free; 7.x and the new 8.x versions are *not* free. Moreover, CREN (the developers) does not recommend the use of the 6.x version, nor do they support it. ListProc *is*, however, substantially cheaper than ListServ. Though it is not as feature-packed, CREN is very responsive to user input, and they are upgrading it pretty regularly. Overall, it provides more bang for the buck than ListServ, especially for those sites with limited buck$. FMI: Note: I have no association with CREN, except that my mailing list happens to be hosted on a ListProc. Just another happy user. :-) - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Boycott Internet Spam! From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 31 13:26:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA25839 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:15:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA25827 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:14:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199610312114.NAA25827@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 6776; Thu, 31 Oct 96 22:12:07 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 2188; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:12:08 +0100 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:26:53 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: LISTSERV-Lite (was Best Mailing List Software For A Host Startup) To: list-managers In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:17:32 -0600 (CST) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >LISTSERV-Lite is a commercial application aimed at management of lists >of no more than a few hundred users. Let's say no more than a few thousand. The free edition is indeed limited to 500 subscribers per list, but that's another story. The Lite version should perform *roughly* like ListProc 6.0 and other compiled MLM freebies with large lists. >However, there are severe restrictions on this. You may not manage more >than 10 lists. If you have multiple machines (which is the case at most universities), you can install multiple copies of the code and run 10 lists on each. >You may not be a membership organization that offers messages as a >benefit of membership. You may not convert your newsletter to a mailing >list. Obviously, the latter restrictions will simply be on the honor >system. I am not too worried about that. If the local golf club uses the free edition to distribute a newsletter to its members and once a year the newsletter says "Remember to renew your subscription!", officially L-Soft will be upset, but I doubt any of the people who work at L-Soft will get red in the face and start calling lawyers. On the other hand, if a company uses the free edition to distribute a financial newsletter that costs $500/year, they will get a call from our legal VP and I don't think it will take long for them to send us a check with a letter apologizing for this "very unfortunate incident". Basically, the idea is that people who don't have money to buy the software should get it for free, and people who have money but would rather not have to pay should join the club, connect their feet to the ground and pay for the product like all our other customers. You can't implement this policy in a waterproof way, so you have to approximate and sometimes jump through hoops. This is why the policy on the web site seems weird sometimes. To be able to say X you sometimes have to say Y even if you don't really care about Y. >Mr. Thomas has said that support for the "free" version of LISTSERV-Lite >will be next to nonexistant. However, when I was having trouble with an >evaluation copy, he personally sent me a response! What this means is that we don't want free edition people to call and ask how much data you can store in 1M :-) Actually, we don't want them to call, period, and we want them to understand that we have paying customers to help before we can look at their trouble reports. This may surprise you, but the less people pay, the more demanding they are. In the academic world there is a tradition to give people a break if something is free, but evidently nobody informed corporate sites about it :-) Or maybe it's the result of having IIS "freely" available, where "free" means that the license for NT Server was increased by $100 at the same time as IIS was released. This makes people feel (probably rightly so) that they are actually paying for the "free" software in question. >LISTSERV-Lite has been ported to some, but not all operating systems. >There are versions for VMS, 2 for NT, but only a handful of Unices. In >contrast, LISTSERV has been ported to 13 flavors of Unix! This is just a practical problem, the code does work on all the 13 unixes in question. It's just a lot of work to build and test for all these systems when you know the code will change soon and packaging problems will probably be found. The Lite version will support all the systems for which the Classic version is available, except for VM. We may be dropping a disused unix brand or two by the way, but this is not a technical issue. When you can't buy the system in question any longer and your last customer migrates to another brand, well, you have to ask yourself if you really want to keep maintaining that system in the hope that you might find another customer before the system disappears completely. Is anyone on the list using Interactive Unix for instance? :-) There's a very good chance that we'll adopt a "compile on demand" approach for such systems. Eric From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 31 15:56:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA09412 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:55:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from archive.org (was.archive.org [206.14.154.180]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA09386 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:55:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from brewster.archive.org by archive.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA07653; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:55:16 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19961031235238.013384fc@mail.archive.org> X-Sender: brewster@mail.archive.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:52:38 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brewster Kahle Subject: Restricting the External Archiving of Email Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Listmanagers, If and when search engines (and archivists) are deployed on public email lists, we are interested in helping establish a mechanism for posters and listowners to do the equivalent of the "robot exclusion rule" for Web: express their intent to not have their content gathered. In this context, we have submitted a Internet Draft (RFC) to the IETF. This is a tricky issue, but we are trying to get something going. Please send comments to me or this list about this. (FYI: there is another moderated&digested list "archivists@archive.org" that is specifically about the technical and social issues of archiving. feel free to join.) -brewster INTERNET-DRAFT Title: Restricting the External Archiving of Email Document: draft-kahle-mail-archive-00.txt Author: Brewster Kahle, Internet Archive, brewster@archive.org Status of this Memo This document is an Internet Draft. Internet Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), its Areas, and its Working Groups. Note that other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet Drafts. Internet Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months. Internet Drafts may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is not appropriate to use Internet Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as a ``working draft'' or ``work in progress``. To learn the current status of any Internet-Draft, please check the 1id-abstracts.txt listing contained in the Internet-Drafts Shadow Directories on ds.internic.net, nic.nordu.net, ftp.isi.edu, or munnari.oz.au. 1. Abstract This draft proposes a mail header field "Restrict:" with a defined value of "no-external-archive" that gives information to a receiving mail transport agent or mail user agent that this message should not be archived by individuals or organizations not associated with the list owner. With the increasing number of search engines that gather information and offer wide access, some writers and would like to restrict how their words are distributed. Mailing lists may begin (or have already begun) to be systematically archived for searching and historical reference. This draft is designed for mailing lists, but it can also be applied to messages in Usenet newsgroups as well. The legal issues around this are deep and difficult, and this draft does not address these legal issues. However, it would be useful to respectful mail receivers if there was a standard method for mail creators (authors or list owners) to express their desires about whether or not their mail can be archived. 2. Proposed Mail Header A general header "Restrict: " is proposed that can be used to express other restrictions than that which is proposed here. The only value proposed in this draft is "no-external-archive". The "no-external-archive" value of the "Restrict:" header could be used by mail receivers that archive messages, and is advisory only. This header is not meant to restrict the list owner, or original author's archiving or indexing of the message. It is only meant to advise individuals or organizations not associated with the list owner (such as archive sites) that the author or list owner does not want this message to appear in any archives not controlled by the author or list owner. 3. Legal Issues The presence or lack of this header on a message does not imply any legal restrictions or legal rights. 4. Security Considerations Because it is advisory only, the "Restrict:" header may lull a sender into a false sense of security about whether or not the message will be archived in a manner that matches their intentions. No sender should assume that the presence or absence of this header will increase the security of the message in any way. 5. Author's Address Brewster Kahle Presidio, P.O. Box 29141 San Francisco, CA 94129 Ph: 415.561.6900 Fax: 415.561.6795 brewster@archive.org From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 31 16:41:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA11520 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA11513 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:17:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kynn@localhost) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) id QAA28845; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:14:43 -0800 From: Kynn Bartlett Message-Id: <199611010014.QAA28845@ayla.idyllmtn.com> Subject: Re: Restricting the External Archiving of Email To: brewster@archive.org (Brewster Kahle) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:14:42 +1600 (PST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19961031235238.013384fc@mail.archive.org> from "Brewster Kahle" at Oct 31, 96 03:52:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > [something proposing Restrict: no-external-archives or similar] Here's a dumb question: Why isn't the default "don't archive without the owner's permission?" In other words, if someone's not set something, it's not archived. In order to turn on archiving, they have to set a header that's something like 'X-Archiving: okay' or 'Restrict: external-archives' or whatever? I wonder about the assumption "it's okay to archive unless we say it's not"; I'd rather have it be the other way around, "it's not okay to archive, unless we say it is." --Kynn Bartlett, owner/admin of various lists