From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 1 17:15:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA21791 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA21783 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:10:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dfl@localhost) by panix.com (8.7.6/8.7/PanixU1.3) id UAA25076 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:10:35 -0500 (EST) From: Danny Lieberman Message-Id: <199611020110.UAA25076@panix.com> Subject: problems at Pipeline? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (List Managers) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:10:35 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Today I received multiple bounces for "user unknown" for 4 addresses on Pipeline - pipeline.com. Recently some subscribers have switched their subscriptions from Pipeline to Mindspring addresses, but these were all fine up until yesterday. Has Pipeline been moving customers over to the new namespace without forwarding mail? -- Danny Lieberman dfl@panix.com From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 1 17:30:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA22740 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:28:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [198.7.0.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA22714 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [166.84.194.182] (nsbooks.dialup.access.net [166.84.194.182]) by mail2.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7.1/PanixM1.0) with ESMTP id UAA13392 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:28:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199611020110.UAA25076@panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:28:00 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Kent S. Larsen II" Subject: Re: problems at Pipeline? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Today I received multiple bounces for "user unknown" for 4 addresses >on Pipeline - pipeline.com. Recently some subscribers have switched >their subscriptions from Pipeline to Mindspring addresses, but these >were all fine up until yesterday. Has Pipeline been moving customers >over to the new namespace without forwarding mail? > >-- > >Danny Lieberman >dfl@panix.com I had the same problem with someone on my list. Danny are you using panix's mailing lists also? Maybe this is just coincidence, or could it be something at panix? I must admit, I don't see how it could be something at panix. I'd love to know what you find out. I assumed that my one listmember had closed his account without turning off the list! Kent S. "Kip" Larsen II; KLarsen@panix.com or KLarsen@NorthSouth.com (work). From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 1 17:45:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA23021 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA23003 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:31:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA09733; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:28:37 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961102014257.006fb288@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 17:42:57 -0800 To: Danny Lieberman From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: problems at Pipeline? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:10 PM 11/1/96 -0500, Danny Lieberman wrote: >Today I received multiple bounces for "user unknown" for 4 addresses >on Pipeline - pipeline.com. Recently some subscribers have switched >their subscriptions from Pipeline to Mindspring addresses, but these >were all fine up until yesterday. Has Pipeline been moving customers >over to the new namespace without forwarding mail? Mindspring has been having some weird bouncing problems too. Probably this is all transitory and will work itself out in a few days. I wouldn't worry that much about it myself. Have you tried writing to or calling Pipeline? -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` The Virtual Dog Show is back! www.dogshow.com From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 1 18:00:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA25433 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:00:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA25379 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:00:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dfl@localhost) by panix.com (8.7.6/8.7/PanixU1.3) id UAA04661 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:59:57 -0500 (EST) From: Danny Lieberman Message-Id: <199611020159.UAA04661@panix.com> Subject: Re: problems at Pipeline? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (List Managers) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:59:57 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Answering both Kent and Kynn, Tried to call Mindspring/Pipeline's 800 number for tech help, got nobdy after waiting 10 minutes, and I dont have the time to just sit around and wait. I wrote to postmaster at both names, I'll share whatever reply I get. > I had the same problem with someone on my list. Danny are you using panix's > mailing lists also? Maybe this is just coincidence, or could it be > something at panix? > I must admit, I don't see how it could be something at panix. Its not Panix - Ive got close to 2 dozen subscribers on pipeline in total, and only 4 fell off, today. > I'd love to know what you find out. I assumed that my one listmember had > closed his account without turning off the list! I doubt it. In the last couple of months Ive received a number of address changes from users going from pipeline to mindspring, but from what Ive seen so far the information getting to subscribers has been totally inadequate. -- Danny Lieberman dfl@panix.com From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 3 15:18:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA22490 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:13:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA22483 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:13:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id PAA06824 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mirage.nlink.com.br (mirage.nlink.com.br [200.238.120.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA28271 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:11:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from dial.nlink.com.br (dial-up14.nlink.com.br [200.238.120.46]) by mirage.nlink.com.br (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA01964 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 02:13:36 -0200 Message-Id: <199610310413.CAA01964@mirage.nlink.com.br> From: "Kleber de Burgos" To: Subject: HELP !! Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:01:37 -0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello everybody ! I manage a list for satellite TV fans, using the MAJORDOMO Vs. 1.93, and I'm trying to set it to receive digest messages ( similar to the LISTSERV's "set digest" option ), since the amount of messages are reaching peaks and the subscribers are demanding this change. Is there a way to do so ? if affirmative please give a hand ! I thank you by beforehand, Kleber de Burgos Brasil@nlink.com.br From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 3 15:20:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA21598 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA21591 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id OAA06395 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:53:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailbox.syr.edu (mailbox.syr.edu [128.230.1.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id GAA24187 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 06:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spider.syr.edu (root@spider.syr.edu [128.230.4.42]) by mailbox.syr.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA10671; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:18:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.syr.edu (jmwobus@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spider.syr.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03118; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610251318.JAA03118@spider.syr.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: jmwobus@MailBox.Syr.Edu Subject: Being volunteered to provide mailing-list-lab-instruction for newbies Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:18:10 -0400 From: "John M. Wobus" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Maybe I'm just using this list to sound off, but I do wonder what other list managers do: This week I received 59 requests to subscribe to my list (BIG-LAN) all from the same host. BIG-LAN is a decent sized list (near 2000 subscribers) but there are three-month periods when I don't receive as many as 59 such requests. A few weeks ago I discovered that perhaps 20 or 30 people had subscribed to BIG-LAN via LISTSERV, all from one host, then immediately unsubscribed. Unlike this most recent time, LISTSERV did the bulk of the work, but I did end up having to do some "clean up" for the people who didn't manage to unsubscribe correctly. I believe I've heard comments from list managers about this type of thing before. Anyone found any wonderful ways to handle this? I'm writing to one of the subscribers for the e-mail address his/her instructor and will send the instructors polite notes that point out the consequences of what they've done. -John Wobus From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 3 15:24:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA22056 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA22049 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:02:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id PAA06531 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mirage.nlink.com.br (mirage.nlink.com.br [200.238.120.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA15968 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:19:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from dial.nlink.com.br (dial-up19.nlink.com.br [200.238.120.51]) by mirage.nlink.com.br (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA13106 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:20:34 -0200 Message-Id: <199610281620.OAA13106@mirage.nlink.com.br> From: "Kleber de Burgos" To: Subject: HELP with Digest Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:23:10 -0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear colleagues: Please give me hand !: . I manage the BrasilSat list for satellite TV fans, down here in Brazil, use the MAJORDOMO Vs. 1.93, and I'm trying to set it to the Digest mode ( similar to the LISTSERV's "set digest" option ), since the amount of messages are reaching peaks and the subscribers are demanding this change. Is there a way to do so, if affirmative please send me a message ! I thank you by beforehand, Kleber de Burgos Brasil@nlink.com.br P.s.: Eg. that's how I would like the lay-out of the digest message to be: "There are 2 messages totalling 56 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Found something 2. FS: 10FT SYSTEM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:04:35 -0400 From: Pia Cseri-Briones Subject: Re: Found something >>On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Jean Michael Pepper wrote: >>> Maybe some of you guys know about this, but I found a strange Sci-Fi show.....................................................................etc , etc ." From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 3 15:28:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA21580 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA21573 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id OAA06390 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:53:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mirage.nlink.com.br (mirage.nlink.com.br [200.238.120.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA25665 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 11:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dial.nlink.com.br (dial-up17.nlink.com.br [200.238.120.49]) by mirage.nlink.com.br (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA20740 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 15:16:56 -0200 Message-Id: <199610241716.PAA20740@mirage.nlink.com.br> From: "Kleber de Burgos" To: Subject: Help - Digest Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 15:16:24 -0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Colleagues: I hope no to bother you with such novice question . I manage the BrasilSat list for satellite TV fans, down here in Brazil, use the MAJORDOMO Vs. 1.93, and I'm trying to set it to the Digest mode ( similar to the LISTSERV's "set digest" option ), since the amount of messages are reaching peaks and the subscribers are demanding this change. Is there a way to do so, if affirmative please give me a hand ! I thank you by beforehand, Kleber de Burgos Brasil@nlink.com.br P.s.: Eg. that's how I would like the lay-out of the digest message to be: "There are 2 messages totalling 56 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Found something 2. FS: 10FT SYSTEM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:04:35 -0400 From: Pia Cseri-Briones Subject: Re: Found something >>On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Jean Michael Pepper wrote: >>> Maybe some of you guys know about this, but I found a strange Sci-Fi show.....................................................................etc , etc ." From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 3 15:32:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA21609 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA21600 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id OAA06400 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom19.netcom.com (netcom19.netcom.com [192.100.81.132]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA03243 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 12:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (arcie@localhost) by netcom19.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id NAA13169; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 13:03:34 -0600 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 13:03:34 -0600 (MDT) From: Randy Cassingham X-Sender: arcie@netcom19 Reply-To: Randy Cassingham To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: The WWW List Unsubscription "Service" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You know, to heck with having web-based subscription sign-ups that we control ourselves; what bothers ME is being involuntarily put on this "service" at HMC.edu. I've had DOZENS of these unsub requests, and I can't think of ONE instance that the person in question was actually on my list. What do they do, send them out to every list owner they know to try to find the right one? It's damn near spam. / Randy Cassingham * Author, "This is True" * arcie@netcom.com \ | For info on What I Do, send a blank e-mail to TrueInfo@freecom.com | \ or check out * I promise you'll like it / ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Return-Path: Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail5.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id LAA12877; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 11:48:51 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id LAB12014; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 11:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anubis.ac.hmc.edu (Anubis.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.18]) by mail5.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id LAA12685; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 11:48:34 -0700 Received: from 134.173.42.2 (muddcs.cs.hmc.edu [134.173.42.2]) by anubis.ac.hmc.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id LAA11348 for this-is-true-approval@netcom.com; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 11:48:31 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 11:48:31 -0700 Message-Id: <199610251848.LAA11348@anubis.ac.hmc.edu> From: [probably innocent person at utexas.edu address deleted] To: Administrator of This Is True X-Sender: The WWW List Unsubscription Service X-From: slip-75-14.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.254.110] Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE (No Reason Available; this message was automatically generated. See header for more info). From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 3 15:36:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA22385 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:10:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA22378 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:10:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id PAA06747 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:09:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM (tymix.tymnet.com [131.146.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA06442 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:12:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24503; Tue, 29 Oct 96 20:12:50 PST Received: from tardis by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 29 Oct 0 20:12:49 PDT Received: by tardis.tymnet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08746; Tue, 29 Oct 96 20:12:48 PST Date: Tue, 29 Oct 96 20:12:48 PST From: jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) Message-Id: <9610300412.AA08746@tardis.tymnet.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: bogus subscriptions - lists on lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:54:55 -0700 > To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM > From: Kynn Bartlett > Subject: Re: bogus subscriptions - lists on lists > > At 12:34 PM 9/19/96 EDT, E. Allen Smith wrote: > > It'll happen less often (along with significant numbers of other > >abuses) as soon as lists are configured to require passworded confirmation > >messages to subscribe. > > Why would "passworded confirmation messages" necessarily be a good thing, > and how would they work? Here is an example of one implementation. I sent "subscribe" to my-list-request@lists.best.com (the name has been changed) and here is the response. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:46:13 -0800 From: my-list-response@lists.best.com Sender: my-list-response@lists.best.com Reply-To: my-list-response@lists.best.com To: jms@tardis.tymnet.com (Joe Smith) Subject: List Auth Request ID= REJECT This list requires that commands be authenticated. We received the following message from your address. If you wish me to execute the command or post the post, simply reply to this message changing the REJECT keyword to ACCEPT and leaving the remainder of the Subject: line intact. If you did not send this message (i.e. someone is spoofing you), you may wish to notify the list manager at the list server site. If you do not wish this command to be executed or this posting to be made, you can either respond and leave the REJECT intact, or you can simply not respond at all. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Note that the recipient has to see the message and change REJECT to ACCEPT while not touching ID=. This means that response from /usr/ucb/vacation won't do it. The fact that the message got to me and my reply got back to the listserver means that the e-mail address is correct. -Joe From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 3 15:37:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA21794 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:59:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA21748 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id OAA06461 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from uclink4.berkeley.edu (uclink4.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.155.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id BAA06596 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 01:17:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from uclink.berkeley.edu (uclink.berkeley.edu [128.32.155.3]) by uclink4.berkeley.edu (8.7.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA31232; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 01:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 25.0.219.32.128.in-addr.arpa (ckc25.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.219.25]) by uclink.berkeley.edu (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA07354; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 01:14:54 -0800 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 01:14:54 -0800 Message-Id: <199610280914.BAA07354@uclink.berkeley.edu> X-Sender: twnkytom@uclink4.berkeley.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Christian Subject: Majordomo Questions Cc: root@uclink4.berkeley.edu, barr@pop.psu.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I just set up a mailinglist 2 days ago, and I have a couple questions about Majordomo: 1. How do I/Is it possible for me to: have Majordomo automatically ask subcribers to confirm subscription/unsub requests? I want to keep my list open, but I would like subscribers to confirm their sub/unsub requests. That way, I have a way to know whether they are sure about subscribing/unsubbing to the list (also to be sure that they are not subscribing people other than themselves for "fun" or as a prank). This does not mean that I want a closed list. My problem is that I do not want to have to go through the tedious process of manually approving/confirming every subscription. I am wondering, by setting "subscribe_policy = auto" instead of "subscribe_policy = open," I would be able to do this. I know that CREN ListProc has this function, but because UC Berkeley does not have ListProc (and I am not planning on buying ListProc from CREN), I need to find a way to do this through Majordomo. 2. How do I set up and manage an archive for my list? 3. How do I set up an information file? Do I use the "newinfo" command in the config file? 4. How do I make a direct/digest mailing option? 5. How does Majordomo compare to ListProc (in layman's terms)? I have visited the Majordomo FAQ WWW and FTP sites (http://www.math.psu.edu/barr/majordomo-faq.html and ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/mail/list-admin/software-faq), but I am still having trouble, primarily because I cannot understand the jargon (I am somewhat computer-illiterate, but I am learning on the fly). If you could help me out, it would be great. Thanks. Christian From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 3 16:03:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA23907 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:46:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from hungary.it.earthlink.net (hungary-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.64]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA23898 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALNAME (max5-wc-ca-10.earthlink.net [206.149.209.60]) by hungary.it.earthlink.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA14623 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:46:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:46:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19961103154531.0a073e3e@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: cvandyke@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Charles Van Dyke Subject: Re: HELP !! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:01 AM 10/31/96 -0200, you wrote: >Hello everybody ! > >I manage a list for satellite TV fans, using the MAJORDOMO Vs. 1.93, and >I'm trying to set it >to receive digest messages ( similar to the LISTSERV's "set digest" option >), since >the amount of messages are reaching peaks and the subscribers are demanding >this change. > >Is there a way to do so ? if affirmative please give a hand ! > >I thank you by beforehand, > >Kleber de Burgos >Brasil@nlink.com.br > Hi, Majordomo allows digests, if you set up a separate digest list. The original list cannot also be a digest. You will have to have your ISP add an additional mailing list as a digest. Charles Van Dyke cvandyke@earthlink.net From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 7 23:35:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA21507 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Nov 1996 23:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id XAA20949 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 7 Nov 1996 23:06:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET by ascb.saturnm.rosmail.com with ESMTP id CAA05311; (8.8.2/vak/1.9) Mon, 4 Nov 1996 02:26:27 +0300 (MSK) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) id QQbohh12122; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:24:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA21598 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA21591 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id OAA06395 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:53:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailbox.syr.edu (mailbox.syr.edu [128.230.1.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id GAA24187 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 06:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spider.syr.edu (root@spider.syr.edu [128.230.4.42]) by mailbox.syr.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA10671; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:18:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.syr.edu (jmwobus@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spider.syr.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03118; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610251318.JAA03118@spider.syr.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: jmwobus@MailBox.Syr.Edu Subject: Being volunteered to provide mailing-list-lab-instruction for newbies Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:18:10 -0400 From: "John M. Wobus" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Maybe I'm just using this list to sound off, but I do wonder what other list managers do: This week I received 59 requests to subscribe to my list (BIG-LAN) all from the same host. BIG-LAN is a decent sized list (near 2000 subscribers) but there are three-month periods when I don't receive as many as 59 such requests. A few weeks ago I discovered that perhaps 20 or 30 people had subscribed to BIG-LAN via LISTSERV, all from one host, then immediately unsubscribed. Unlike this most recent time, LISTSERV did the bulk of the work, but I did end up having to do some "clean up" for the people who didn't manage to unsubscribe correctly. I believe I've heard comments from list managers about this type of thing before. Anyone found any wonderful ways to handle this? I'm writing to one of the subscribers for the e-mail address his/her instructor and will send the instructors polite notes that point out the consequences of what they've done. -John Wobus From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 7 23:38:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA21736 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Nov 1996 23:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id XAA20955 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 7 Nov 1996 23:06:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET by ascb.saturnm.rosmail.com with ESMTP id CAA05336; (8.8.2/vak/1.9) Mon, 4 Nov 1996 02:29:56 +0300 (MSK) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) id QQbohh12483; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:27:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA22056 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA22049 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:02:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id PAA06531 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mirage.nlink.com.br (mirage.nlink.com.br [200.238.120.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA15968 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:19:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from dial.nlink.com.br (dial-up19.nlink.com.br [200.238.120.51]) by mirage.nlink.com.br (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA13106 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:20:34 -0200 Message-Id: <199610281620.OAA13106@mirage.nlink.com.br> From: "Kleber de Burgos" To: Subject: HELP with Digest Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:23:10 -0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear colleagues: Please give me hand !: . I manage the BrasilSat list for satellite TV fans, down here in Brazil, use the MAJORDOMO Vs. 1.93, and I'm trying to set it to the Digest mode ( similar to the LISTSERV's "set digest" option ), since the amount of messages are reaching peaks and the subscribers are demanding this change. Is there a way to do so, if affirmative please send me a message ! I thank you by beforehand, Kleber de Burgos Brasil@nlink.com.br P.s.: Eg. that's how I would like the lay-out of the digest message to be: "There are 2 messages totalling 56 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Found something 2. FS: 10FT SYSTEM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:04:35 -0400 From: Pia Cseri-Briones Subject: Re: Found something >>On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Jean Michael Pepper wrote: >>> Maybe some of you guys know about this, but I found a strange Sci-Fi show.....................................................................etc , etc ." From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 9 12:18:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA16230 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 12:05:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from marquis.netinc.ca (marquis.netinc.ca [205.211.8.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA16223 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 12:05:32 -0800 (PST) From: srudd@bible.ca Received: from dialup.www.netinc.ca (netserv3-9.netinc.ca [205.211.8.141]) by marquis.netinc.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA13148 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 14:49:10 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0b34.32.19961109150611.0114f9dc@bible.ca> X-Sender: srudd@bible.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b34 (32) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 15:06:15 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: best non-profit MLM? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I will be taking over two lists in Jan 97 of 300 subscribers each. They are non-profit lists running. Which software program is currently the all round best for my needs: 1. Automatic bounce control (I don't want a flurry of bounces each day) 2. key word searching of the archive Thanks! ____________________________________________ Steve Rudd 905-575-8437 Fax: 575-8814 srudd@bible.ca LOCAL INSTRUCTOR FOR: The Interactive Bible www.bible.ca From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 9 12:31:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA16750 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 12:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from marquis.netinc.ca (marquis.netinc.ca [205.211.8.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA16735 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 12:21:58 -0800 (PST) From: srudd@bible.ca Received: from dialup.www.netinc.ca (netserv3-9.netinc.ca [205.211.8.141]) by marquis.netinc.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA13560 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 15:05:36 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0b34.32.19691231190000.007067a8@bible.ca> X-Sender: srudd@bible.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b34 (32) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 15:22:42 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: best non-profit MLM? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I will be taking over two lists in Jan 97 of 300 subscribers each. They are non-profit lists running. Which software program is currently the all round best for my needs: 1. Automatic bounce control (I don't want a flurry of bounces each day) 2. key word searching of the archive Thanks! ____________________________________________ Steve Rudd 905-575-8437 Fax: 575-8814 srudd@bible.ca LOCAL INSTRUCTOR FOR: The Interactive Bible www.bible.ca From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 10 14:01:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA10824 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 13:59:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest.net (iquest4.iquest.net [206.53.230.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA10817 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 13:59:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from ind-004-236-171.iquest.net by iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0vMhun-003iZTC; Sun, 10 Nov 96 16:59 EST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Machine-Knit-Owner" Organization: Machine-knit Email Discussion list To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 17:04:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Primenet.Com & CIS Reply-to: Machine-knit-owner@nyx.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.40) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Recently I've been receiving a rash of bounced emails from Compuserve and only today saw that they correlated with primenet.com. What does primenet have to do with CIS? What really ticks me off is there is no address in the bounce to tell me who is not receiving the mail. I have 2 primenet users and the only way to pin down the bouncer was to send a personal email to them both and then see which one bounced back and then I could only tell by the return headers. Excuse me, but when are these people going to wake up? Amy Amy Stinson Owner-Machine-knit Mailto:machine-knit-owner@nyx.net Http://www.iquest.net/~amys/machknit.htm From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 12 11:03:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA08615 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:50:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix3.panix.com ([198.7.0.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA08587 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from genie@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.7.6/8.7/PanixU1.3) id NAA25488; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 13:50:34 -0500 (EST) From: Andy Finkenstadt Message-Id: <199611121850.NAA25488@panix3.panix.com> Subject: GEIS.COM and GENIE.GEIS.COM royally munged To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 13:50:34 -0500 (EST) Cc: genie@panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I don't know what exactly happened, but GEIS.COM was put on hold by the Internic on 10-November-96. This affects hundreds of GEIS corporate E-mail customers (XX.GEIS.COM) as well as the thousands of mailboxes of GENIE.GEIS.COM by returning an authoritative "Host unknown" to any and all incoming mail. Please be aware of this as your lists process millions of bounces from the GEIS.COM (and the GENIE.COM -> GENIE.GEIS.COM translator) domains. I have alerted the technical operations folks at GEIS and GENIE, so no further action is required. Andy GEnie Postmaster -- Andrew Finkenstadt, The Printing House Ltd, Also a GEnie Sysop "By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began to suspect 'Hungry' ..." -- Gary Larson, "The Far Side" From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 12 14:18:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA25817 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:06:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from answerman.mindspring.com (answerman.mindspring.com [204.180.128.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA25769 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:06:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALNAME (user-168-121-55-2.dialup.mindspring.com [168.121.55.2]) by answerman.mindspring.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA23236 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 17:18:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 17:18:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611122218.RAA23236@answerman.mindspring.com> X-Sender: tracey@pop.mont.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Tracey McCartney Subject: Re: GEIS.COM and GENIE.GEIS.COM royally munged Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:50 PM 11/12/96 -0500, you wrote: >I don't know what exactly happened, but GEIS.COM was put on hold by the >Internic on 10-November-96. > Someone forget to pay the annual domain registration fee? : ) Tracey McCartney, Enforcement Coordinator Central Alabama Fair Housing Center tracey@mindspring.com fair_housing-owner@majordomo.pobox.com (Disclaimer: The views represented herein are my own and do not represent those of the Central Alabama Fair Housing Center, its board of directors or its staff.) From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 12 15:06:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA29665 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:57:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from stout.entertain.com ([199.45.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA29586 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:56:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from drummond@localhost) by stout.entertain.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA11962 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:56:25 -0700 From: Rachel Drummond Message-Id: <199611122256.PAA11962@stout.entertain.com> Subject: Re: GEIS.COM and GENIE.GEIS.COM royally munged To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:56:25 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >I don't know what exactly happened, but GEIS.COM was put on hold by the > >Internic on 10-November-96. > > > > Someone forget to pay the annual domain registration fee? : ) > > > Tracey McCartney, Enforcement Coordinator > Central Alabama Fair Housing Center > tracey@mindspring.com > fair_housing-owner@majordomo.pobox.com > (Disclaimer: The views represented herein are my own and do not represent > those of the Central Alabama Fair Housing Center, its board of directors or > its staff.) Actually, many of our customers have had their domain names put on hold when they were paid up and current. This announcement made me wonder if it was simply another InterNic billing mistake. Rachel -- Rachel Drummond, ABWAM, Inc. Phone: 303-730-6050 drummond@abwam.com Fax: 303-730-6823 From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 12 17:21:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA09265 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 17:00:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix3.panix.com ([198.7.0.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id QAA09170 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:59:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from genie@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.7.6/8.7/PanixU1.3) id TAA19066; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 19:58:16 -0500 (EST) From: Andy Finkenstadt Message-Id: <199611130058.TAA19066@panix3.panix.com> Subject: Re: GEIS.COM and GENIE.GEIS.COM royally munged To: drummond@stout.entertain.com (Rachel Drummond) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 19:58:15 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199611122256.PAA11962@stout.entertain.com> from "Rachel Drummond" at Nov 12, 96 03:56:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > >I don't know what exactly happened, but GEIS.COM was put on hold by the > > >Internic on 10-November-96. > > > > Someone forget to pay the annual domain registration fee? : ) > > Actually, many of our customers have had their domain names put on hold > when they were paid up and current. This announcement made me wonder if > it was simply another InterNic billing mistake. My announcement was neutral for this very reason. It states the fact, it does not ascribe motive to either party. It just lets list managers know that we(GEIS) know something is 'up', and that it's being taken care of, so as to reduce the alarm at suddenly having perfectly working addresses turn into phantoms literally overnight. Andy -- Andrew Finkenstadt, The Printing House Ltd, Also a GEnie Sysop "By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began to suspect 'Hungry' ..." -- Gary Larson, "The Far Side" From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 13 00:47:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA02625 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 00:43:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov (sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id AAA02618 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 00:43:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2A VAX) id 13; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 00:43:13 PST Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 00:43:08 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: tracey@mont.mindspring.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009AB484.1AE6409A.13@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: GEIS.COM and GENIE.GEIS.COM royally munged Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"tracey@mont.mindspring.com" 12-NOV-1996 14:37:09.70 > Subj: Re: GEIS.COM and GENIE.GEIS.COM royally munged > At 01:50 PM 11/12/96 -0500, you wrote: > >I don't know what exactly happened, but GEIS.COM was put on hold by the > >Internic on 10-November-96. > > > > Someone forget to pay the annual domain registration fee? : ) > Now wouldn't that be ironic - GE forgetting to pay their "utility bill"! But. more than likely, you-know-who screwed up, again... > > Tracey McCartney, Enforcement Coordinator > Central Alabama Fair Housing Center > tracey@mindspring.com > fair_housing-owner@majordomo.pobox.com > (Disclaimer: The views represented herein are my own and do not represent > those of the Central Alabama Fair Housing Center, its board of directors or > its staff.) > > -HWM From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 13 12:17:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA01882 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:15:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA01875 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:15:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA10654; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:13:13 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19961113122210.0071ba80@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:27:25 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ Cc: mel@herald.co.uk, rox@tara-lu.com, gerald@hwg.org, khyri@idyllmtn.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I wanted you other mailing list owners and managers to be informed of what I think is a very irresponsible and problematic web site. Someone calling themselves "ZIA" (http://www.zia.com/) has a site at http://www.discussion.com/. The page features a search engine and reads: >Getting on and off a mailing list just got a whole lot easier! > >Search, subscribe, unsubscribe and set options for 10's of thousands >of mailing lists using simple forms input. > >For those new to mailing lists or discussion groups, they provide a >unique method of exchanging ideas on almost >any topic in the known universe. The best part is that the messages >arrive as e-mail, and you can reply just as you >would to any e-mail. Mailing lists tend to create a more close knit >community than do newsgroups, and they >usually having a lower noise ratio and much less flaming. Mailing >lists also can be started by anyone, so enjoy, and >check back often to find out about new lists. The search engine apparently contains mailing lists they've culled from the net somehow. They sure didn't ask me about 'em. And yet when I type in: [idyllmtn ] ( ) Match whole words (*) Concept search ...I get back the following: > Mailing Lists Mailing list menu > > > idyllmtn-news > Idyll Mountain Internet company newsletter > _________________________________________________________________ > > List administration information: > Silicon lifeform: Majordomo@idyllmtn.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Subscribe, Unsubscribe or Set Options > Your name: > ________________________________________ > > Your E-mail address: > ________________________________________ > > Subscribe or Unsubscribe > ___Subscribe to the idyllmtn-news mailing list. > ___Unsubscribe from the idyllmtn-news mailing list. > > Select an option below only if the default indicated is not desired, > or if you want to change your current settings. > You may change your settings at any time. > > ___Default: Sends you individual messages > ___Sends digests rather than individual messages > > ___Default: No Acknowledgment is sent > ___Confirms that you sent a message to the list > > ___Default: Shows your name in a REVIEW command > ___Hides your name from a REVIEW command > > ___Default: Makes your subscription active > ___Suspends your subscription until the next ACTIVE command > > ___Default: Include sender of message in distribution of message > ___Do not include sender in distribution of message > > Submit Reset To me, this is clearly wrong for several reasons: * I did not ask to be included in their index. (They apparently only have some of the idyllmtn.com lists, not all of them.) * I did not ask for them to set up a web interface to my mailing list. If I wanted to provide this, I'd do it myself. * They encourage people joining a mailing list based SOLELY on the description of the list, and not even on the 'info' file. This is extremely irresponsible, especially given the fact that Liszt, a much better mailing list archive (http://www.liszt.com/) takes pains to specifically tell people NOT to join a list just based on the name and description -- which I think is the right approach. * Their form makes it easy to subscribe or unsubscribe anyone from a list. Admittedly, this is easy enough for one to do if they know what they're doing (forging email is trivial), but I think this goes over the top on an already irresponsible site. * My list software (Majordomo) doesn't even _have_ any of the options listed above, so their form is both misleading and plain wrong, period. Additionally, their 'response page' consists of: >idyllmtn-news > > Your subscription request to the idyllmtn-news mailing list has been > processed. You will receive mail from the list server with further > instructions. > The Recipients: Majordomo@idyllmtn.com > Return to previous page. * To me, this comes real close to pretending to be officially connected with _my_ mailing list, something that really bothers me as the list owner. Does anyone else agree or disagree with this? Am I overreacting? (I don't think so, but you're free to say it.) As for online indices of mailing lists, I'm much, _much_ more comfortable with the policies of Liszt, who seem to be much more responsible and a better net citizen. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Tibetan Mastiff Owner / www.idyllmtn.com/tm/ From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 13 15:53:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA14411 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 15:37:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA14395 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 15:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id RAA29359; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 17:38:42 -0600 Message-Id: <199611132338.RAA29359@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ To: kynn@idyllmtn.com (Kynn Bartlett) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 17:38:42 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, mel@herald.co.uk, rox@tara-lu.com, gerald@hwg.org, khyri@idyllmtn.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19961113122210.0071ba80@mail.idyllmtn.com> from "Kynn Bartlett" at Nov 13, 96 12:27:25 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kynn Bartlett said... | |Does anyone else agree or disagree with this? Am I overreacting? |(I don't think so, but you're free to say it.) I agree wholeheartedly with you. This is thoroughly bogus. -Miles meo@schoneal.com From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 07:32:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA14111 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 07:28:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [192.80.84.132]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA14101 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 07:27:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA08359; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:28:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:28:02 -0500 (EST) From: Brock Rozen To: Kynn Bartlett Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, mel@herald.co.uk, rox@tara-lu.com, gerald@hwg.org, khyri@idyllmtn.com Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19961113122210.0071ba80@mail.idyllmtn.com> Message-Id: X-Url: http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Kynn Bartlett wrote: > To me, this is clearly wrong for several reasons: > > * I did not ask to be included in their index. (They apparently > only have some of the idyllmtn.com lists, not all of them.) Neither did Yahoo when they searched your webpages and indexed them. > * They encourage people joining a mailing list based SOLELY on the > description of the list, and not even on the 'info' file. This > is extremely irresponsible, especially given the fact that Liszt, > a much better mailing list archive (http://www.liszt.com/) takes > pains to specifically tell people NOT to join a list just based > on the name and description -- which I think is the right approach. Did you ever ask them to remove you from their listing? > * Their form makes it easy to subscribe or unsubscribe anyone from > a list. Admittedly, this is easy enough for one to do if they > know what they're doing (forging email is trivial), but I think > this goes over the top on an already irresponsible site. Ever tried the subscribe_policy, unsubscribe_policy commands? > * My list software (Majordomo) doesn't even _have_ any of the > options listed above, so their form is both misleading and plain > wrong, period. That's a different story, and I agree with you on this. They've obviously programmed their pages for listproc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@webdreams.com | http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 09:32:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA21993 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA21980 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:18:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA07404; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:15:33 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19961114091951.00749894@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:29:51 -0800 To: Brock Rozen From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:28 AM 11/14/96 -0500, Brock Rozen wrote: >On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Kynn Bartlett wrote: >> To me, this is clearly wrong for several reasons: >> * I did not ask to be included in their index. (They apparently >> only have some of the idyllmtn.com lists, not all of them.) >Neither did Yahoo when they searched your webpages and indexed them. Say what? No offense, Brock, but you clearly don't know how Yahoo works. >> * They encourage people joining a mailing list based SOLELY on the >> description of the list, and not even on the 'info' file. >Did you ever ask them to remove you from their listing? No. Your point? (Answer: The question is immaterial. They're offering a 'service' to other people to subscribe to my lists via the web, and that's just not something I want.) >> * Their form makes it easy to subscribe or unsubscribe anyone from >> a list. >Ever tried the subscribe_policy, unsubscribe_policy commands? Since their script apparently _forges_ mail from the originating address, what value would these options have in stopping subscribe and/or unsubscribe requests? To my Majordomo, it looks exactly as if 'valor@lsh.org' had sent 'subscribe idyllmtn-news' or as if 'kynn@idyllmtn.com' had sent 'unsubscribe idyllmtn-news'. >> * My list software (Majordomo) doesn't even _have_ any of the >> options listed above, so their form is both misleading and plain >> wrong, period. >That's a different story, and I agree with you on this. They've obviously >programmed their pages for listproc. Well, at least you've found one thing you don't care for very much about their 'service.' -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Tibetan Mastiff Owner / www.idyllmtn.com/tm/ From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 10:25:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA25159 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:57:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [192.80.84.132]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA25048 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:57:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA13241; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:56:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:56:56 -0500 (EST) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: Brock Rozen To: Kynn Bartlett Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19961114091951.00749894@mail.idyllmtn.com> Message-Id: X-Url: http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Kynn Bartlett wrote: > >> To me, this is clearly wrong for several reasons: > >> * I did not ask to be included in their index. (They apparently > >> only have some of the idyllmtn.com lists, not all of them.) > >Neither did Yahoo when they searched your webpages and indexed them. > > Say what? > > No offense, Brock, but you clearly don't know how Yahoo works. They've indexed my web pages, and surely never asked for permission. I think you clearly have it wrong. > >> * They encourage people joining a mailing list based SOLELY on the > >> description of the list, and not even on the 'info' file. > >Did you ever ask them to remove you from their listing? > > No. Your point? (Answer: The question is immaterial. They're > offering a 'service' to other people to subscribe to my lists via > the web, and that's just not something I want.) Same goes for many of the web archiving/indexing services. You know what else is available on the Internet? People's phone numbers. Yup, millions of them. The yellow and white pages were put up for most of the major cities. Now you don't have to buy a cd, you just logon! You see, my point is that there are many things on the web that deal with information that we may not have asked to put up -- stuff I certainly wouldn't put up myself. Yet it is there... > >> * Their form makes it easy to subscribe or unsubscribe anyone from > >> a list. > >Ever tried the subscribe_policy, unsubscribe_policy commands? > > Since their script apparently _forges_ mail from the originating > address, what value would these options have in stopping subscribe > and/or unsubscribe requests? To my Majordomo, it looks exactly as The closed option would require ALL requests to be approved. Not that I would suggest doing this, sinceI personally wouldn't -- but it would "solve" the forging problem. Another feature that's even BETTER than closed is open+confirm -- it solves the forged subscription problem. I still think nobody would go through the hassle of a web form to do major un/subscribing. > if 'valor@lsh.org' had sent 'subscribe idyllmtn-news' or as if > 'kynn@idyllmtn.com' had sent 'unsubscribe idyllmtn-news'. As you yourself said, forging e-mail addresses is trivial. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@webdreams.com | http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 11:18:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA28314 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA28267 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kendall@localhost) by mail.his.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA01317 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:49:04 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:49:03 -0500 (EST) From: "Kendall P. Bullen" Reply-To: "Kendall P. Bullen" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is getting a bit silly. On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Brock Rozen wrote: *They've indexed my web pages, and surely never asked for permission. There is a way to put something in your web directory so that intelligent robots won't index them. (I presume Yahoo respects that, but I haven't checked.) *You see, my point is that there are many things on the web that deal with *information that we may not have asked to put up -- stuff I certainly *wouldn't put up myself. Yet it is there... That's different; that's information that any bozo could get by dialing either 411, 1-xxx-555-1212, or 1-800-555-1212, so that's not a good analogy. To sum up: You can choose to have an unlisted number; you can choose to put a file in your web directory so that it won't be indexed; there is no similar method to tell weirdos like those people, "Don't add my mailing list to your list of mailing lists." Kendall From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 12:18:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA02421 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:02:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [192.80.84.132]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA02399 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:01:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA14540; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:01:47 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:01:47 -0500 (EST) From: Brock Rozen To: "Kendall P. Bullen" Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Url: http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Kendall P. Bullen wrote: > To sum up: You can choose to have an unlisted number; you can choose to > put a file in your web directory so that it won't be indexed; there is no > similar method to tell weirdos like those people, "Don't add my mailing > list to your list of mailing lists." Did you ever ask them?? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@webdreams.com | http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 12:27:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA02992 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:12:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA02984 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) id QQbpvk26649; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:12:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <1.F8EE43DB@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 21:12:14 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 1737; Thu, 14 Nov 96 21:06:19 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 6130; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 21:06:18 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 20:55:15 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:49:03 -0500 (EST) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:49:03 -0500 (EST) "Kendall P. Bullen" said: >To sum up: You can choose to have an unlisted number; you can choose to >put a file in your web directory so that it won't be indexed; there is >no similar method to tell weirdos like those people, "Don't add my >mailing list to your list of mailing lists." Actually, for LISTSERV there is (since 1988), but the mailing list directories always make sure to ignore it. Here's why: Number of LISTSERV lists that want to be indexed (default option): 9,913 Number of LISTSERV lists that SPECIFICALLY asked not to be indexed: 32,640 So, only 9913 / 42553 = 23.3% of the LISTSERV lists want to be indexed. What a bummer! These list owners can be so insensitive. Do they really want me to cut 32.6k lists out of my directory when every single additional one makes my site more popular and more likely to get listed in web reviews as being the largest mailing list directory in the world, and receive more visits which put advertisement $$$ in my pocket? Surely if these people were in my shoes, they would agree to be listed. So let's list them all! No need to waste their time confirming my theory. Also, let's list some of them twice (where the site has a CNAME), to increase the head count. Finally, let's make sure never to sweep old lists that have been deleted. This way it looks like we have even more lists! Eric From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 12:32:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA03507 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:20:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil ([131.218.204.98]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA03500 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:20:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1); Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:24:31 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:24:31 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 13:49 11/14/96, Kendall P. Bullen said: >*They've indexed my web pages, and surely never asked for permission. > >There is a way to put something in your web directory so that intelligent >robots won't index them. (I presume Yahoo respects that, but I haven't >checked.) Yep, it's a robots.txt file. Works great, too (tho not all robots respect it, most seem to). Go here FMI: - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Boycott Internet Spam! From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 12:43:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA03755 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:26:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [198.77.86.217]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA03747 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (zach@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id PAA10804; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:27:09 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:27:08 -0500 (EST) From: Zach Nobel X-Sender: zach@solstice Reply-To: Zach Nobel To: "Kendall P. Bullen" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Avoiding getting your list on sites like ZIA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > To sum up: You can choose to have an unlisted number; you can choose to > put a file in your web directory so that it won't be indexed; there is no > similar method to tell weirdos like those people, "Don't add my mailing > list to your list of mailing lists." One thing you can do if you're using majordomo is to utilize the noadvertise option. This way you can do handy things like not advertise to anyone except local members (or people from a specific domain name). I believe the reason this would work (and Teleport(.com) my employer for 1.3 years implemented this) is because the 'gathering' scripts that people like the makers of the ZIA site use simply send out a query to the local list server, asking for an 'index'. Ie, if you're not advertising, they won't get your name... This, combined with the new 'confirm' feature of majordomo, gives the list owners of majordomo some handy tools to filter out unwanted attention (such as spammers, who use the index commands, and open door policy's of lax lists, to their advantage). I've just checked, and it seems that they haven't picked up any of Teleport's lists, which lends credence to what I'm saying (to me at least). FYI (perhaps you'll find this usefull?) Zach _________ Zachariah Nobel, Assistant in Internet Services Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology (CREST) zach@crest.org From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 13:48:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA08534 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:35:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from izzy4.izzy.net (izzy4.izzy.net [198.108.102.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id NAA08442 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:34:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from UUatbbs@localhost) by izzy4.izzy.net (8.8.0/8.6.9) id QAA02672 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:31:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: izzy4.izzy.net: UUatbbs set sender to atbbs!dbsmith using -f >Received: by atbbs.com (0.99.960714) id AA00522; 14 Nov 96 10:13:06 -0500 From: dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith) Date: 13 Nov 96 20:01:10 -0500 Subject: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://w Message-ID: <50b_9611141013@atbbs.com> References: <3.0.32.19961113122210.0071ba80@mail.idyllmtn.com> Organization: American Tune BBS To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk KB>> Your subscription request to the idyllmtn-news mailing list has been KB>> processed. You will receive mail from the list server with further KB>> instructions. KB>> The Recipients: Majordomo@idyllmtn.com KB>> Return to previous page. KB>* To me, this comes real close to pretending to be officially connected KB> with _my_ mailing list, something that really bothers me as the list KB> owner. KB>Does anyone else agree or disagree with this? Am I overreacting? KB>(I don't think so, but you're free to say it.) No, I think you are correct. The description of at least one of my maillists, for example, would convince some folks the list is a nice place for casual, freeform discussion about darn near anything. That is true ... but the list is also intended to be restricted to a relative handful of people from a very specialized group. So people could potentially try to subscribe to the list who didn't really belong there. Just as well; the list is closed for subscriptions to post, although anyone can subscribe to receive the list. ___ X SLMR 2.1a X 58. Include your Children when Baking Cookies --- Maximus 3.01 * U'NI-net: American Tune BBS * Ann Arbor, MI * (313)663-6232 SEEN-BY: 40822/16069 1/1 2 -- >> How's my typing? Email sysop@atbbs.com .. >> My views are sometimes not even my own, much less anyone else's. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 15:03:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA13893 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA13881 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kendall@localhost) by mail.his.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA25616; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:27:28 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:27:27 -0500 (EST) From: "Kendall P. Bullen" To: Brock Rozen cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Brock Rozen wrote: *> similar method to tell weirdos like those people, "Don't add my mailing *> list to your list of mailing lists." * *Did you ever ask them?? I'm not the one with the problem, and I was speaking more generally. Plus, I have to admit, that it annoys me to realize that I now have to go check that site -- and that there could be other out there I'd never find out about, or would have to hunt down. Asking is great for that one person, in that one instance, assuming they pay attention . . . but it raises a broader issue, I feel. Perhaps it's just me, though. ;) kendall From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 15:17:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA19218 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:05:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom15.netcom.com (netcom15.netcom.com [192.100.81.128]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA19147 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:05:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (grafolog@localhost) by netcom15.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id XAA10448; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 23:05:24 GMT Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 23:05:24 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon X-Sender: grafolog@netcom15 To: Zach Nobel cc: "Kendall P. Bullen" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Avoiding getting your list on sites like ZIA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: x-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Zach Nobel wrote: > I've just checked, and it seems that they haven't picked up any of > Teleport's lists, which lends credence to what I'm saying (to me at > least). Could be they just haven't gotten around to sending something to Teleport, to find out what lists are on Teleport. I did check for a few lists I know of, on various hosts, and found some of them --- though not using the terms I'd expect them to. And found as many, or more mismatches, as correct matches. xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com * * * * * * * * A "Crew Cut" was originally used at the University of Washington, to differentiate the rowing club members from the rest of the student body. Originally the club members wanted to wear leather jackets, but the Board of Regents wouldn't hear of that idea. So the idea became one that they would have identical hair cuts. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 15:32:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA21354 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:27:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA21328 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:27:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:32:08 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:32:08 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just noticed this ... >On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Kynn Bartlett wrote: > >> * My list software (Majordomo) doesn't even _have_ any of the >> options listed above, so their form is both misleading and plain >> wrong, period. ** Sometime around 10:28 11/14/96, Brock Rozen said: >That's a different story, and I agree with you on this. They've obviously >programmed their pages for listproc. Um, *no*, they haven't obviously programmed their pages with listproc in mind, since some of the commands they use do not employ the proper syntax for listproc. - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Boycott Internet Spam! From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 15:47:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA22358 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ami.tom.computerworks.net (AMI.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.95.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA22322 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:42:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com by ami.tom.computerworks.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vOBQF-0021dmC; Thu, 14 Nov 96 18:42 EST Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA04304 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:45:57 -0600 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199611142345.RAA04304@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:45:56 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > *> similar method to tell weirdos like those people, "Don't add my mailing > *> list to your list of mailing lists." > * > *Did you ever ask them?? As someone who keeps a compilation of mailing lists, this is something I have a strong opinion about. I shouldn't have to ask them to take my lists out of their collection. They should ask *me* if I want mine included. Or I should solicit them and ask them to do so. It's not that easy getting people to change things, either. Trust me on this, I've spent a lot of time chasing down references trying to get people to modify their listings. It's not just commericial entities either. Sometimes it's well-meaning but clueless people out there who think they're doing the right thing by putting in a mailto: link to my majordomo on their web page and who don't understand why I would want them to remove it. Getting people to remove stuff like this can be like pulling teeth. There's an amazing amount of inertia on the web. This is unfortunately fueled by those pages out there who "rank" the net and give high grades to those with pretty graphics and lots of links. Dunno, I always looked for quality and useful info as opposed to quantity and surface gloss. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 18:02:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA03722 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from old-bb.hks.net (old-bb.hks.net [199.183.60.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA03679 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:00:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from field@localhost) by old-bb.hks.net (8.6.9/8.6.9-bb2) id UAA18130 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 20:57:48 -0500 Received: from GATEWAY by bb.com with netnews for list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers@greatcircle.com) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 19:59:31 -0600 From: "EasySoft" Message-ID: <01bbd299.17e60380$eb97eaa8@mario> Organization: EasySoft References: <199611142345.RAA04304@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: emailing list posibility Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, everybody. I'm email compiling but sometimes, the people don't like to receive unsolicited messages, how can i found a good mailing list. In my oppinion I have a good program to send to opportunity seekers, if you like you can visit my web page to write to me your oppinion http://www.geocities.com/wallstreet/6682/money.com Thanks, your comments are welcome to easysoft@geocities.com From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 18:32:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA05308 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA05246 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:16:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from attitude.queernet.org (attitude.queernet.org [140.174.78.2]) by queernet.queernet.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA12041 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19961114181518.00d2d4dc@pop.queernet.org> X-Sender: rogerk@pop.queernet.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 beta 1 (32) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:15:22 -0800 To: "EasySoft" From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Subject: Re: emailing list posibility Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 07:59 PM 11/14/96 -0600, EasySoft wrote: >Hi, everybody. > >I'm email compiling but sometimes, the people don't like to receive >unsolicited messages, how can i found a good mailing list. > >In my oppinion I have a good program to send to opportunity seekers, if >you like you can visit my web page to write to me your oppinion > >http://www.geocities.com/wallstreet/6682/money.com > >Thanks, your comments are welcome to easysoft@geocities.com > > I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't understand the terminology. "Internet mailing lists" are not lists of Internet addresses which can be used to send advertising to. "Internet mailing lists" are lists of people with common interests who wish to carry on shared, non-commercial conversations about those interests with each other. On the other hand, if you already *did* understand the distinction, then fuck yourself all to hell. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 15 02:49:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA13592 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 02:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id CAA13528 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 02:18:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2A VAX) id 36; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 02:18:14 PST Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 01:11:10 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: easysoft@geocities.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009AB61A.59DB3E30.36@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: RE: emailing list posibility Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"easysoft@geocities.com" 14-NOV-1996 18:23:29.12 > Subj: emailing list posibility > Hi, everybody. > > I'm email compiling but sometimes, the people don't like to receive > unsolicited messages, how can i found a good mailing list. > > In my oppinion I have a good program to send to opportunity seekers, if > you like you can visit my web page to write to me your oppinion > > http://www.geocities.com/wallstreet/6682/money.com > > Thanks, your comments are welcome to easysoft@geocities.com I doubt that more than about 1-2 % of people that you email will appreciate the effort. Unsolicitied mass mailings are generally frowned upon, and can cause you a considerable about of grief. There are usenet groups devoted specifically to business like this - you'd be better off working there. Also, a pointer to your web page, as you've done abve, is usually considered socially acceptable - make them come to you. Put up a killer web page and laugh all the way to the bank. -HWM From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 15 05:02:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA19344 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 04:54:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu (spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id EAA19336 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 04:54:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA18949 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 08:00:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA13036 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 07:54:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 07:54:44 -0500 (EST) From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199611151254.HAA13036@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >*> similar method to tell weirdos like those people, "Don't add my mailing >*> list to your list of mailing lists." >* >*Did you ever ask them?? > >I'm not the one with the problem, and I was speaking more generally. >Plus, I have to admit, that it annoys me to realize that I now have to go >check that site -- and that there could be other out there I'd never find >out about, or would have to hunt down. Asking is great for that one >person, in that one instance, assuming they pay attention . . . but it >raises a broader issue, I feel. > >Perhaps it's just me, though. ;) No, it isn't "just you." I agree that this site's behavior is completely out of line. If I want my mailing lists advertised, *I'll* advertise them. I belong to several lists that are invitation-only, and I have managed invi- tation-only lists; the last time one of my lists was advertised, I wound up with one net.blowhard who actually complained to the site admin that I was "misusing" State resources by running a dedicated invitation-only list. (and not letting him in, of course) If someone wants to advertise my list, it is not unreasonable to expect them to ask first - *especially* since they already have the list-owner's address. Anything else is disrespectful to both the list owner and the list's members. --Wes From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 15 11:06:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA13213 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from gauntlet-1.trusted.com (gauntlet-1.trusted.com [204.254.155.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA13125 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by gauntlet-1.trusted.com; id NAA18032; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 13:44:26 -0500 Received: from dira.rv.tis.com(10.0.1.43) by gauntlet-1.trusted.com via smap (V3.1.1) id xma018029; Fri, 15 Nov 96 13:44:14 -0500 Received: (from mark@localhost) by dira.rv.tis.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id NAA03420 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 13:32:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 13:32:51 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Sienkiewicz Message-Id: <199611151832.NAA03420@dira.rv.tis.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Brock Rozen >Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ > >> ... there is no >> similar method to tell weirdos like those people, "Don't add my mailing >> list to your list of mailing lists." > >Did you ever ask them?? I find this question unacceptable. Last I heard, there were several million people using the Internet. Should I ask each and every one of them not to list my mailing list on a web page? Should I ask each of them not to send me chain letters? Should I ask each one not to collect my address and my *unlisted* phone number and publish it on the web? No, I guess not. My computer would spend years delivering all those messages. And I don't want millions of messages from them asking ME not to. Instead, I can devote my life to searching the internet for people who are including me in their databases, so I can ask them nicely to take me out. Sorry, I have better things to do. When you start providing a network service, you have to think about who you are harming by doing it. A little consideration will go a long way... From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 15 12:48:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA22537 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from itw.com (rsk.itw.com [206.138.122.70]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA21744 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by itw.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) id PAA16670 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:12:25 -0500 (EST) From: Rich Kulawiec Message-Id: <199611152012.PAA16670@itw.com> Subject: Is there an RFC which covers mailing list manager directives? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:12:24 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: rsk@itw.com Organization: GSP X-Last-River: Lehigh, PA X-Last-CD: WXPN New Music Sampler - Heart Beats X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk (I've checked the FAQ archive, the RFC archive, and the messages I've saved from the list -- can't find anything that matches this description. My apologies if I went right by it.) Having recently shifted my e-mail address, I've been interacting with a lot of majordomo/listserv/listproc/etc. software. It's occured to me that there's substantial end-user confusion out there because each of these accepts a slightly different syntax; has anybody written an RFC which attempts to lay out an Internet standard for this? If not, *should* somebody write an RFC which covers this? I can see where it would solve a large number of problems, and I'm somewhat surprised that it hasn't already been done. I can also see where it might be a contentious issue, with supporters of each software package's interface arguing that theirs should be the de facto standard. Rich Kulawiec rsk@itw.com From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 15 13:02:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA23416 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:33:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA23296 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA27415; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:32:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:32:01 -0800 (PST) From: Cyndi Norman Message-Id: <199611152032.MAA27415@weber.ucsd.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Subject: Advertising Lists Reply-to: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I agree with what many here have said...asking if the list-owner wishes to be included is just basic respect. Though I actually don't mind being listed in lists of lists of mailing lists or having my URL linked to. The problem is when people take it upon themselves to create shortcuts. Like the person who created a web link that said that my *posting* address was how one subscribed to list about colloildal silver (which has been mentioned once or twice in 5 years...). At least that webmaster changed the entry immediately when I asked him to. Or the people (usually my subscribers) who give out 2 email links on their web page...1 my admin address and 2 the posting address. And then say they aren't responsibile for stupid people who send subscribes or info requests to the wrong address (though she changed it too when I insisted). My preference is for people to either give out my admin email address (though I'm sick of the huge number of subscribers who stay a few days because they didn't realize the volume or range of topics of my list (things I put into my info files and on my web page)) or link directly to my web page if theirs is a web page. Then I can control the info people see and don't have to rely on others to update. Speaking of updating...I'm losing this account soon and have to move the list and webpages and everything else. I already have another account (not set up) and will probably get forwards for the email and web hits, but how do I update all the lists of lists and web links etc? After nearly 6 years of running this list at this address I am on more lists of lists than I can count or ever find. I didn't have to advertise the list after the first year (with the exception of putting it in Yahoo). I'll send notices to as many places as I can find and rely on forwards for the rest, I suppose. THere are literally hundreds of listings via alta vista for where my list is advertised. Any suggestions? Stephanie? Cyndi __________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@ucsd.edu ___________________________________________ http://weber.ucsd.edu/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 15 15:59:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA09579 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:33:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id PAA09569 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:33:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA23905 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:42:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from attitude.queernet.org (attitude.queernet.org [140.174.78.2]) by queernet.queernet.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA23433 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19961114094122.01655a54@pop.queernet.org> X-Sender: rogerk@pop.queernet.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 beta 1 (32) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:41:23 -0800 To: Kynn Bartlett From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ Cc: Brock Rozen , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:29 AM 11/14/96 -0800, Kynn Bartlett wrote: >No offense, Brock, but you clearly don't know how Yahoo works. Apparently YOU don't, or at least how most of the other crawlers work. They index whatever they can access. >>Ever tried the subscribe_policy, unsubscribe_policy commands? > >Since their script apparently _forges_ mail from the originating >address, what value would these options have in stopping subscribe >and/or unsubscribe requests? Lots, if you actually use current software. That's what "+confirm" is for; I'm finally comfortable enough to put up web-based subscription for my lists, now that it's here. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 15 19:20:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA04795 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA04786 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:14:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mcb@localhost) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) id TAA14692 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:13:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611160313.TAA14692@server.postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:13:25 +0000 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Or, "why I always read SMTP transactions in bounce messages"... > ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications ----- > (unrecoverable error) > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > ... while talking to mail.hotmail.com.: > >>> RCPT To: > <<< 554 User 's account discontinued due to prior misuse. > 554 ... Service unavailable Much more satisfying than a simple "User unknown"... -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 15 21:53:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA23469 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 21:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA23405 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 21:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.181.220.82] by colossus.arl.mil with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sat, 16 Nov 1996 00:48:33 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 00:49:48 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 19:14 11/15/96, Michael C. Berch said: >> <<< 554 User 's account discontinued due to prior misuse. >> 554 ... Service unavailable > >Much more satisfying than a simple "User unknown"... Yup, but it means yet *another* search string for the routine that processes the mail bounces. (I'm referring to a routine that I wrote, so *I* hafta go update it.) Gratifying nonetheless, though. (To be honest, I'd really like to see an RFC for mail-bounce formats.) - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Boycott Internet Spam! From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 00:17:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA11487 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 00:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id AAA11467 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 00:05:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from 207.33.130.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [207.33.130.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) with SMTP id AAA15404; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 00:04:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <328D75B9.119F@postmodern.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 00:05:23 -0800 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vince Sabio CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... References: ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 07:35:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.181.220.82] by colossus.arl.mil with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:39:49 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:41:01 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 00:05 11/16/96, Michael C. Berch said: >Vince Sabio wrote: > >> Yup, but it means yet *another* search string for the routine that >> processes the mail bounces. (I'm referring to a routine that I wrote, >> so *I* hafta go update it.) > >Wouldn't you be looking for the "<<< 5xx" in the case of a >sendmail transcript? No, it isn't NEARLY that simple. Wanna see a few *pages* of code? ;-) >In theory you should be able to parse out >the SMTP response codes without looking at the exact error message, >since that's not at all a fixed set. No, I need to parse the message, since many 5xx messages are not failures at all. For example, many 554s are "service unavailable" and "local configurations error" messages, and I *think* I've seen some that are delayed messages. Plus the "550 host unknown" responses -- which I've learned to just skip over (at this point; multiple-bounce processing to be implemented later). To simply accept every 5xx error would result in unsubscribing a LARGE portion of the active list. >> (To be honest, I'd really like to see an RFC for mail-bounce formats.) > >Actually, it exists. See RFC-1892, RFC-1893, and RFC-1894 >(the last of these is the actual specification). Hmmm ... too bad very few servers seem to follow it/them. - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Boycott Internet Spam! From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 08:32:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA29006 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 08:32:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from burnout.cts.com (burnout.cts.com [204.216.216.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA28999 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 08:32:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from donews.cts.com (root@donews.cts.com [192.188.72.21]) by burnout.cts.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA25219 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 08:32:42 -0800 Received: from fatcity.com by donews.cts.com with uucp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0vOnfI-00006bC; Sat, 16 Nov 96 08:32 PST Received: by fatcity.com (Wildcat) id 01937W Sat, 16 Nov 1996 08:02:33 GMT From: bruceb@fatcity.com (Bruce Bergman) Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 08:02:32 GMT Message-Id: <848131352@fatcity.com> Organization: Fat City BBS, San Diego, California To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -> >> <<< 554 User 's account discontinued due to prior misuse. -> >> 554 ... Service unavailable -> Yup, but it means yet *another* search string for the routine that -> processes the mail bounces. (I'm referring to a routine that I wrote, -> so *I* hafta go update it.) Really? You SHOULD be checking against the sendmail result codes -- they never change, regardless of the text. In the example above, 554. I too have my own mailing list software, and I don't have worry about lotsa new strings and such. Just use the numbers. That's why they were provided in the first place. -> (To be honest, I'd really like to see an RFC for mail-bounce formats.) You and me both. ;-) thanks, bruce From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 11:03:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA05364 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:55:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA05355; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:55:17 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:56:12 -0800 To: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio), List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brent Chapman Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:41 AM -0500 11/16/96, Vince Sabio wrote: >No, I need to parse the message, since many 5xx messages are not failures >at all. For example, many 554s are "service unavailable" and "local >configurations error" messages, and I *think* I've seen some that are >delayed messages. Plus the "550 host unknown" responses -- which I've >learned to just skip over (at this point; multiple-bounce processing to >be implemented later). > >To simply accept every 5xx error would result in unsubscribing a LARGE >portion of the active list. That's their problem, not yours... I decided long ago that I wasn't willing to accept somebody else's burping mailer as my problem. If somebody's mailer is sending bounces back to me, I don't really care what the bounces say; that somebody (if I can figure out who it is) is going onto our bounces list. If/when they get their problem fixed, they can resubscribe. If it happens often, they should either fix or replace their mailer. I have no sympathy for _their_ broken/buggy/paranoid/whatever mailer filling _our_ mailboxes up with bounces, though. >>> (To be honest, I'd really like to see an RFC for mail-bounce formats.) >> >>Actually, it exists. See RFC-1892, RFC-1893, and RFC-1894 >>(the last of these is the actual specification). > >Hmmm ... too bad very few servers seem to follow it/them. They're new; give 'em time. Current versions of Sendmail generate them, and it's already proven a great boon; about 40% of the bounce traffic we get back here (which is something like 20 MB per day) is from such systems. -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 11:48:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA07869 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:40:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA07836 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:40:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id NAA10071; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:41:27 -0600 Message-Id: <199611161941.NAA10071@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... To: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:41:27 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199611160313.TAA14692@server.postmodern.com> from "Michael C. Berch" at Nov 15, 96 07:13:25 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael C. Berch said... | |> >>> RCPT To: |> <<< 554 User 's account discontinued due to prior misuse. |> 554 ... Service unavailable This is simply *wonderful*. I love it! Is this a modified sendmail, or is this something configurable? I don't recall ever seeing a way to do this... -Miles From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 11:54:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA08229 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:46:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA08190 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:45:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id NAA10124; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:47:04 -0600 Message-Id: <199611161947.NAA10124@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Is there an RFC which covers mailing list manager directives? To: rsk@itw.com Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:47:03 -0600 (CST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199611152012.PAA16670@itw.com> from "Rich Kulawiec" at Nov 15, 96 03:12:24 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rich Kulawiec said... | |If not, *should* somebody write an RFC which covers this? I can see |where it would solve a large number of problems, and I'm somewhat |surprised that it hasn't already been done. I can also see where |it might be a contentious issue, with supporters of each software |package's interface arguing that theirs should be the de facto standard. I think it's a great idea. The base functionality is close enough that both should be capable of supporting their original and any new versions of commands for a while, perhaps always including a "this command is derprecated and will go away soon, so in the future please use blah" note when responding to the old versions. That would of course be part of the RFC. This would mean nothing would have to suddenly be broken by the new standard. And it's only the user interface that matters for this RFC. If people wnated a maintainer's RFC, that would be a separate issue (one I could care less about). -Miles From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 12:18:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA09231 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:06:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA09212 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:05:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from 207.33.130.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [207.33.130.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) with SMTP id MAA18318; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:05:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <328E1EB9.19F6@postmodern.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:07:14 -0800 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Is there an RFC which covers mailing list manager directives? References: <199611161947.NAA10124@wildride.schoneal.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk To summarize very brutally (:-)), RFC-1894 covers all this, essentially by defining a MIME-type for all kinds of delivery status messages (bounces, deferrals, success, etc.), and furthermore, I think that sendmail 8.7.x supports it (notice that sendmail bounces changed formats between 8.6.x and 8.7). I'll follow up on this with citations etc. if people are interested. In fact, I thought one of the authors of RFC01894 was on this list, no? -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 14:47:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA12821 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:41:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.proper.com (mail.proper.com [206.86.127.224]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA12812 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:41:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [165.227.249.100] (dharma.proper.com [165.227.249.100]) by mail.proper.com (8.8.2/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA27787; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:41:11 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: paulh@mail.proper.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199611161941.NAA10071@wildride.schoneal.com> References: <199611160313.TAA14692@server.postmodern.com> from "Michael C. Berch" at Nov 15, 96 07:13:25 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:42:06 -0800 To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Is this a modified sendmail, or is this something >configurable? I don't recall ever seeing a way to >do this... Doesn't look like sendmail unless they tweaked the default strings: # host -t mx hotmail.com. hotmail.com mail is handled (pri=5) by mail.hotmail.com # telnet mail.hotmail.com 25 Trying 206.86.127.195... Connected to mail.hotmail.com. Escape character is '^]'. 220 constitution.hotmail.com Server SMTP ready at Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:40:05 -0800 QUIT 221 constitution.hotmail.com Out Connection closed by foreign host. --Paul Hoffman --Paul Hoffman --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 14:54:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA12789 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolis.com (bolis.com [204.153.195.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA12782 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:39:41 -0800 (PST) Received: Received: from hock.bolis.com (root@hock.bolis.com [199.165.142.10]) by bolis.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA24384 ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:39:51 -0800 Received: from amillar.bolis.com by hock.bolis.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0vOtOv-000G0KC; Sat, 16 Nov 96 14:39 PST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Alan Millar" Organization: The Bolis Group To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:39:47 -800 Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 16 Nov 96 at 10:41, Vince Sabio wrote: > >Vince Sabio wrote: > >> Yup, but it means yet *another* search string for the routine that > >> processes the mail bounces. (I'm referring to a routine that I wrote, > >> so *I* hafta go update it.) > >Wouldn't you be looking for the "<<< 5xx" in the case of a > >sendmail transcript? There are far too many errors that return a 55X code, which are temporary problems that you know will be fixed. Just now I got one from CompuServe: "554... unknown mailer error 81". It rejected all of the addresses in the batch with the one error message. I have no idea what it means specifically, but I know from experience that it is simply a one-time glitch, and I don't want to unsubscribe people every time there is a single problem. Just this morning I was dealing with another user who gets kicked off a list on my system every few weeks. (I have a program which parses bounces and unsubscribes users.) His system will simply reject mail to him with "550... user unknown". One message out of thousands and thousands, but it occurs nonetheless. Naturally his system admins don't believe it even happens, despite the fact that I furnish them a copy of the actual bounce. And to a certain extent I don't blame them, because if it happens that infrequently how do you track it down? My conclusion is that *any* bounce can happen once, and should probably be ignored. I need to add some state information to make judgements like if address X bounces Y times within Z timeframe, unsubscribe it. But making it stateful is another can of worms I haven't opened yet. It has been easier to go by which bounce descriptions are more likely to be permanent and which are more likely to be temporary, which are simply learned by experience. And for what it is worth, I *HATE* "service unavailable". What the heck is THAT supposed to mean?!?! Oh, well :-) - Alan ---- Alan Millar amillar@bolis.com Owner, System Admin http://www.bolis.com Ask me about Internet mailing list services at Bolis.com $RELATIVE went to $LOCATION_NAME and all they got me was this lousy signature From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 19:33:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA19145 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 19:22:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom18.netcom.com (netcom18.netcom.com [192.100.81.131]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA19137 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 19:22:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (grafolog@localhost) by netcom18.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id DAA12398; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 03:22:23 GMT Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 03:22:21 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon X-Sender: grafolog@netcom18 To: Alan Millar cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: x-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan: On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, Alan Millar wrote: > for what it is worth, I *HATE* "service unavailable". What the heck > is THAT supposed to mean?!?! Oh, well :-) They haven't yet figured out how to send Muzak via e-mail, and they don't know what else to do. xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com * * * * * * * * A "Crew Cut" was originally used at the University of Washington, to differentiate the rowing club members from the rest of the student body. Originally the club members wanted to wear leather jackets, but the Board of Regents wouldn't hear of that idea. So the idea became one that they would have identical hair cuts. From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 23:18:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA27943 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 23:09:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from taz.hyperreal.com (taz.hyperreal.com [204.152.144.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id XAA27936 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 23:09:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by taz.hyperreal.com (8.7.6/V2.0) with SMTP id XAA18560; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 23:10:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 23:10:03 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Brock Rozen cc: Kynn Bartlett , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Brock Rozen wrote: > On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Kynn Bartlett wrote: > > > >> To me, this is clearly wrong for several reasons: > > >> * I did not ask to be included in their index. (They apparently > > >> only have some of the idyllmtn.com lists, not all of them.) > > >Neither did Yahoo when they searched your webpages and indexed them. > > > > Say what? > > > > No offense, Brock, but you clearly don't know how Yahoo works. > > They've indexed my web pages, and surely never asked for permission. > > I think you clearly have it wrong. Kids, kids: Yahoo does not employ robots to index the web. Yahoo relies upon user-submitted URL's added to an information hierarchy. Sites like Infoseek and AltaVista do index the web. I think that's where the dispute was. Secondly: all the major search engines *claim* to obey the "robots.txt" de-facto specification: http://info.webcrawler.com/mak/projects/robots/norobots.html Though Excite doesn't always do that (heck, its nameserver cache keeps old name resolutions around for weeks as well, meaning old IP addresses get hits for them long after a site has been moved. But this is another story for another list...) Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- brian@hyperreal.com http://www.apache.org http://www.organic.com/jobs From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 17 14:48:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA23669 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 14:34:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id OAA22390 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 14:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA26214 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 21:32:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA03670 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 23:34:35 -0600 Message-Id: <199611150534.XAA03670@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Majordomo results: lists (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 23:34:35 -0600 (CST) From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bad news for Teleport.com; you don't need the info command, just the "lists" command. See below for the results. Compare those to our slightly modified "lists" command: ----------------- "lists" @ Schober O'Neal ------------------ >>>> lists Majordomo@hostname.schoneal.com serves the following lists: Use the 'info ' command to get more information about a specific list. ------------------ end of "lists" at SOI -------------------- And if you aren't on a list, even knowing its name won't help you. If you aren't a member of the list, "info listname" won't work either. I don't recall the details, but it was pretty easy to track down and comment out the code. It wouldn't be too hard to restrict it, I guess, but that was supposed to be happening in our version and wasn't working, and we made a conscious decision to keep them all private, anyway. If someone wants a public list, we'll talk about it - so far, nobody has. -Miles --------------------- results of "lists" @ teleport -------------------- >>>> lists Majordomo@teleport.com serves the following lists: 223-list News & discussion about 223 Freedom & Mutual Aid Ctr alldogs-l