From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 1 17:15:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA21791 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA21783 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:10:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dfl@localhost) by panix.com (8.7.6/8.7/PanixU1.3) id UAA25076 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:10:35 -0500 (EST) From: Danny Lieberman Message-Id: <199611020110.UAA25076@panix.com> Subject: problems at Pipeline? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (List Managers) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:10:35 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Today I received multiple bounces for "user unknown" for 4 addresses on Pipeline - pipeline.com. Recently some subscribers have switched their subscriptions from Pipeline to Mindspring addresses, but these were all fine up until yesterday. Has Pipeline been moving customers over to the new namespace without forwarding mail? -- Danny Lieberman dfl@panix.com From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 1 17:30:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA22740 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:28:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [198.7.0.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA22714 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [166.84.194.182] (nsbooks.dialup.access.net [166.84.194.182]) by mail2.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7.1/PanixM1.0) with ESMTP id UAA13392 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:28:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199611020110.UAA25076@panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:28:00 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Kent S. Larsen II" Subject: Re: problems at Pipeline? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Today I received multiple bounces for "user unknown" for 4 addresses >on Pipeline - pipeline.com. Recently some subscribers have switched >their subscriptions from Pipeline to Mindspring addresses, but these >were all fine up until yesterday. Has Pipeline been moving customers >over to the new namespace without forwarding mail? > >-- > >Danny Lieberman >dfl@panix.com I had the same problem with someone on my list. Danny are you using panix's mailing lists also? Maybe this is just coincidence, or could it be something at panix? I must admit, I don't see how it could be something at panix. I'd love to know what you find out. I assumed that my one listmember had closed his account without turning off the list! Kent S. "Kip" Larsen II; KLarsen@panix.com or KLarsen@NorthSouth.com (work). From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 1 17:45:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA23021 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA23003 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:31:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA09733; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:28:37 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961102014257.006fb288@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 17:42:57 -0800 To: Danny Lieberman From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: problems at Pipeline? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:10 PM 11/1/96 -0500, Danny Lieberman wrote: >Today I received multiple bounces for "user unknown" for 4 addresses >on Pipeline - pipeline.com. Recently some subscribers have switched >their subscriptions from Pipeline to Mindspring addresses, but these >were all fine up until yesterday. Has Pipeline been moving customers >over to the new namespace without forwarding mail? Mindspring has been having some weird bouncing problems too. Probably this is all transitory and will work itself out in a few days. I wouldn't worry that much about it myself. Have you tried writing to or calling Pipeline? -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` The Virtual Dog Show is back! www.dogshow.com From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 1 18:00:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA25433 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:00:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA25379 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:00:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dfl@localhost) by panix.com (8.7.6/8.7/PanixU1.3) id UAA04661 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:59:57 -0500 (EST) From: Danny Lieberman Message-Id: <199611020159.UAA04661@panix.com> Subject: Re: problems at Pipeline? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (List Managers) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:59:57 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Answering both Kent and Kynn, Tried to call Mindspring/Pipeline's 800 number for tech help, got nobdy after waiting 10 minutes, and I dont have the time to just sit around and wait. I wrote to postmaster at both names, I'll share whatever reply I get. > I had the same problem with someone on my list. Danny are you using panix's > mailing lists also? Maybe this is just coincidence, or could it be > something at panix? > I must admit, I don't see how it could be something at panix. Its not Panix - Ive got close to 2 dozen subscribers on pipeline in total, and only 4 fell off, today. > I'd love to know what you find out. I assumed that my one listmember had > closed his account without turning off the list! I doubt it. In the last couple of months Ive received a number of address changes from users going from pipeline to mindspring, but from what Ive seen so far the information getting to subscribers has been totally inadequate. -- Danny Lieberman dfl@panix.com From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 3 15:18:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA22490 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:13:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA22483 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:13:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id PAA06824 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mirage.nlink.com.br (mirage.nlink.com.br [200.238.120.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA28271 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:11:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from dial.nlink.com.br (dial-up14.nlink.com.br [200.238.120.46]) by mirage.nlink.com.br (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA01964 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 02:13:36 -0200 Message-Id: <199610310413.CAA01964@mirage.nlink.com.br> From: "Kleber de Burgos" To: Subject: HELP !! Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:01:37 -0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello everybody ! I manage a list for satellite TV fans, using the MAJORDOMO Vs. 1.93, and I'm trying to set it to receive digest messages ( similar to the LISTSERV's "set digest" option ), since the amount of messages are reaching peaks and the subscribers are demanding this change. Is there a way to do so ? if affirmative please give a hand ! I thank you by beforehand, Kleber de Burgos Brasil@nlink.com.br From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 3 15:20:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA21598 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA21591 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id OAA06395 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:53:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailbox.syr.edu (mailbox.syr.edu [128.230.1.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id GAA24187 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 06:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spider.syr.edu (root@spider.syr.edu [128.230.4.42]) by mailbox.syr.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA10671; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:18:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.syr.edu (jmwobus@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spider.syr.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03118; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610251318.JAA03118@spider.syr.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: jmwobus@MailBox.Syr.Edu Subject: Being volunteered to provide mailing-list-lab-instruction for newbies Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:18:10 -0400 From: "John M. Wobus" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Maybe I'm just using this list to sound off, but I do wonder what other list managers do: This week I received 59 requests to subscribe to my list (BIG-LAN) all from the same host. BIG-LAN is a decent sized list (near 2000 subscribers) but there are three-month periods when I don't receive as many as 59 such requests. A few weeks ago I discovered that perhaps 20 or 30 people had subscribed to BIG-LAN via LISTSERV, all from one host, then immediately unsubscribed. Unlike this most recent time, LISTSERV did the bulk of the work, but I did end up having to do some "clean up" for the people who didn't manage to unsubscribe correctly. I believe I've heard comments from list managers about this type of thing before. Anyone found any wonderful ways to handle this? I'm writing to one of the subscribers for the e-mail address his/her instructor and will send the instructors polite notes that point out the consequences of what they've done. -John Wobus From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 3 15:24:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA22056 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA22049 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:02:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id PAA06531 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mirage.nlink.com.br (mirage.nlink.com.br [200.238.120.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA15968 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:19:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from dial.nlink.com.br (dial-up19.nlink.com.br [200.238.120.51]) by mirage.nlink.com.br (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA13106 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:20:34 -0200 Message-Id: <199610281620.OAA13106@mirage.nlink.com.br> From: "Kleber de Burgos" To: Subject: HELP with Digest Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:23:10 -0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear colleagues: Please give me hand !: . I manage the BrasilSat list for satellite TV fans, down here in Brazil, use the MAJORDOMO Vs. 1.93, and I'm trying to set it to the Digest mode ( similar to the LISTSERV's "set digest" option ), since the amount of messages are reaching peaks and the subscribers are demanding this change. Is there a way to do so, if affirmative please send me a message ! I thank you by beforehand, Kleber de Burgos Brasil@nlink.com.br P.s.: Eg. that's how I would like the lay-out of the digest message to be: "There are 2 messages totalling 56 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Found something 2. FS: 10FT SYSTEM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:04:35 -0400 From: Pia Cseri-Briones Subject: Re: Found something >>On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Jean Michael Pepper wrote: >>> Maybe some of you guys know about this, but I found a strange Sci-Fi show.....................................................................etc , etc ." From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 3 15:28:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA21580 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA21573 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id OAA06390 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:53:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mirage.nlink.com.br (mirage.nlink.com.br [200.238.120.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA25665 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 11:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dial.nlink.com.br (dial-up17.nlink.com.br [200.238.120.49]) by mirage.nlink.com.br (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA20740 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 15:16:56 -0200 Message-Id: <199610241716.PAA20740@mirage.nlink.com.br> From: "Kleber de Burgos" To: Subject: Help - Digest Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 15:16:24 -0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Colleagues: I hope no to bother you with such novice question . I manage the BrasilSat list for satellite TV fans, down here in Brazil, use the MAJORDOMO Vs. 1.93, and I'm trying to set it to the Digest mode ( similar to the LISTSERV's "set digest" option ), since the amount of messages are reaching peaks and the subscribers are demanding this change. Is there a way to do so, if affirmative please give me a hand ! I thank you by beforehand, Kleber de Burgos Brasil@nlink.com.br P.s.: Eg. that's how I would like the lay-out of the digest message to be: "There are 2 messages totalling 56 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Found something 2. FS: 10FT SYSTEM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:04:35 -0400 From: Pia Cseri-Briones Subject: Re: Found something >>On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Jean Michael Pepper wrote: >>> Maybe some of you guys know about this, but I found a strange Sci-Fi show.....................................................................etc , etc ." From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 3 15:32:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA21609 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA21600 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id OAA06400 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom19.netcom.com (netcom19.netcom.com [192.100.81.132]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA03243 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 12:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (arcie@localhost) by netcom19.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id NAA13169; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 13:03:34 -0600 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 13:03:34 -0600 (MDT) From: Randy Cassingham X-Sender: arcie@netcom19 Reply-To: Randy Cassingham To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: The WWW List Unsubscription "Service" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You know, to heck with having web-based subscription sign-ups that we control ourselves; what bothers ME is being involuntarily put on this "service" at HMC.edu. I've had DOZENS of these unsub requests, and I can't think of ONE instance that the person in question was actually on my list. What do they do, send them out to every list owner they know to try to find the right one? It's damn near spam. / Randy Cassingham * Author, "This is True" * arcie@netcom.com \ | For info on What I Do, send a blank e-mail to TrueInfo@freecom.com | \ or check out * I promise you'll like it / ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Return-Path: Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail5.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id LAA12877; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 11:48:51 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id LAB12014; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 11:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anubis.ac.hmc.edu (Anubis.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.18]) by mail5.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id LAA12685; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 11:48:34 -0700 Received: from 134.173.42.2 (muddcs.cs.hmc.edu [134.173.42.2]) by anubis.ac.hmc.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id LAA11348 for this-is-true-approval@netcom.com; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 11:48:31 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 11:48:31 -0700 Message-Id: <199610251848.LAA11348@anubis.ac.hmc.edu> From: [probably innocent person at utexas.edu address deleted] To: Administrator of This Is True X-Sender: The WWW List Unsubscription Service X-From: slip-75-14.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.254.110] Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE (No Reason Available; this message was automatically generated. See header for more info). From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 3 15:36:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA22385 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:10:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA22378 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:10:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id PAA06747 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:09:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM (tymix.tymnet.com [131.146.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA06442 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:12:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24503; Tue, 29 Oct 96 20:12:50 PST Received: from tardis by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 29 Oct 0 20:12:49 PDT Received: by tardis.tymnet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08746; Tue, 29 Oct 96 20:12:48 PST Date: Tue, 29 Oct 96 20:12:48 PST From: jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) Message-Id: <9610300412.AA08746@tardis.tymnet.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: bogus subscriptions - lists on lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:54:55 -0700 > To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM > From: Kynn Bartlett > Subject: Re: bogus subscriptions - lists on lists > > At 12:34 PM 9/19/96 EDT, E. Allen Smith wrote: > > It'll happen less often (along with significant numbers of other > >abuses) as soon as lists are configured to require passworded confirmation > >messages to subscribe. > > Why would "passworded confirmation messages" necessarily be a good thing, > and how would they work? Here is an example of one implementation. I sent "subscribe" to my-list-request@lists.best.com (the name has been changed) and here is the response. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:46:13 -0800 From: my-list-response@lists.best.com Sender: my-list-response@lists.best.com Reply-To: my-list-response@lists.best.com To: jms@tardis.tymnet.com (Joe Smith) Subject: List Auth Request ID= REJECT This list requires that commands be authenticated. We received the following message from your address. If you wish me to execute the command or post the post, simply reply to this message changing the REJECT keyword to ACCEPT and leaving the remainder of the Subject: line intact. If you did not send this message (i.e. someone is spoofing you), you may wish to notify the list manager at the list server site. If you do not wish this command to be executed or this posting to be made, you can either respond and leave the REJECT intact, or you can simply not respond at all. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Note that the recipient has to see the message and change REJECT to ACCEPT while not touching ID=. This means that response from /usr/ucb/vacation won't do it. The fact that the message got to me and my reply got back to the listserver means that the e-mail address is correct. -Joe From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 3 15:37:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA21794 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:59:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA21748 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id OAA06461 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from uclink4.berkeley.edu (uclink4.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.155.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id BAA06596 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 01:17:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from uclink.berkeley.edu (uclink.berkeley.edu [128.32.155.3]) by uclink4.berkeley.edu (8.7.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA31232; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 01:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 25.0.219.32.128.in-addr.arpa (ckc25.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.219.25]) by uclink.berkeley.edu (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA07354; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 01:14:54 -0800 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 01:14:54 -0800 Message-Id: <199610280914.BAA07354@uclink.berkeley.edu> X-Sender: twnkytom@uclink4.berkeley.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Christian Subject: Majordomo Questions Cc: root@uclink4.berkeley.edu, barr@pop.psu.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I just set up a mailinglist 2 days ago, and I have a couple questions about Majordomo: 1. How do I/Is it possible for me to: have Majordomo automatically ask subcribers to confirm subscription/unsub requests? I want to keep my list open, but I would like subscribers to confirm their sub/unsub requests. That way, I have a way to know whether they are sure about subscribing/unsubbing to the list (also to be sure that they are not subscribing people other than themselves for "fun" or as a prank). This does not mean that I want a closed list. My problem is that I do not want to have to go through the tedious process of manually approving/confirming every subscription. I am wondering, by setting "subscribe_policy = auto" instead of "subscribe_policy = open," I would be able to do this. I know that CREN ListProc has this function, but because UC Berkeley does not have ListProc (and I am not planning on buying ListProc from CREN), I need to find a way to do this through Majordomo. 2. How do I set up and manage an archive for my list? 3. How do I set up an information file? Do I use the "newinfo" command in the config file? 4. How do I make a direct/digest mailing option? 5. How does Majordomo compare to ListProc (in layman's terms)? I have visited the Majordomo FAQ WWW and FTP sites (http://www.math.psu.edu/barr/majordomo-faq.html and ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/mail/list-admin/software-faq), but I am still having trouble, primarily because I cannot understand the jargon (I am somewhat computer-illiterate, but I am learning on the fly). If you could help me out, it would be great. Thanks. Christian From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 3 16:03:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA23907 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:46:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from hungary.it.earthlink.net (hungary-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.64]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA23898 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALNAME (max5-wc-ca-10.earthlink.net [206.149.209.60]) by hungary.it.earthlink.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA14623 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:46:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:46:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19961103154531.0a073e3e@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: cvandyke@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Charles Van Dyke Subject: Re: HELP !! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:01 AM 10/31/96 -0200, you wrote: >Hello everybody ! > >I manage a list for satellite TV fans, using the MAJORDOMO Vs. 1.93, and >I'm trying to set it >to receive digest messages ( similar to the LISTSERV's "set digest" option >), since >the amount of messages are reaching peaks and the subscribers are demanding >this change. > >Is there a way to do so ? if affirmative please give a hand ! > >I thank you by beforehand, > >Kleber de Burgos >Brasil@nlink.com.br > Hi, Majordomo allows digests, if you set up a separate digest list. The original list cannot also be a digest. You will have to have your ISP add an additional mailing list as a digest. Charles Van Dyke cvandyke@earthlink.net From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 7 23:35:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA21507 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Nov 1996 23:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id XAA20949 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 7 Nov 1996 23:06:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET by ascb.saturnm.rosmail.com with ESMTP id CAA05311; (8.8.2/vak/1.9) Mon, 4 Nov 1996 02:26:27 +0300 (MSK) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) id QQbohh12122; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:24:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA21598 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA21591 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id OAA06395 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:53:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailbox.syr.edu (mailbox.syr.edu [128.230.1.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id GAA24187 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 06:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spider.syr.edu (root@spider.syr.edu [128.230.4.42]) by mailbox.syr.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA10671; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:18:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.syr.edu (jmwobus@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spider.syr.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03118; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610251318.JAA03118@spider.syr.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: jmwobus@MailBox.Syr.Edu Subject: Being volunteered to provide mailing-list-lab-instruction for newbies Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:18:10 -0400 From: "John M. Wobus" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Maybe I'm just using this list to sound off, but I do wonder what other list managers do: This week I received 59 requests to subscribe to my list (BIG-LAN) all from the same host. BIG-LAN is a decent sized list (near 2000 subscribers) but there are three-month periods when I don't receive as many as 59 such requests. A few weeks ago I discovered that perhaps 20 or 30 people had subscribed to BIG-LAN via LISTSERV, all from one host, then immediately unsubscribed. Unlike this most recent time, LISTSERV did the bulk of the work, but I did end up having to do some "clean up" for the people who didn't manage to unsubscribe correctly. I believe I've heard comments from list managers about this type of thing before. Anyone found any wonderful ways to handle this? I'm writing to one of the subscribers for the e-mail address his/her instructor and will send the instructors polite notes that point out the consequences of what they've done. -John Wobus From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 7 23:38:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA21736 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Nov 1996 23:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id XAA20955 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 7 Nov 1996 23:06:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET by ascb.saturnm.rosmail.com with ESMTP id CAA05336; (8.8.2/vak/1.9) Mon, 4 Nov 1996 02:29:56 +0300 (MSK) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) id QQbohh12483; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:27:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA22056 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com (honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA22049 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:02:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.7.5/Honor-960830-1) id PAA06531 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mirage.nlink.com.br (mirage.nlink.com.br [200.238.120.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA15968 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:19:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from dial.nlink.com.br (dial-up19.nlink.com.br [200.238.120.51]) by mirage.nlink.com.br (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA13106 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:20:34 -0200 Message-Id: <199610281620.OAA13106@mirage.nlink.com.br> From: "Kleber de Burgos" To: Subject: HELP with Digest Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:23:10 -0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear colleagues: Please give me hand !: . I manage the BrasilSat list for satellite TV fans, down here in Brazil, use the MAJORDOMO Vs. 1.93, and I'm trying to set it to the Digest mode ( similar to the LISTSERV's "set digest" option ), since the amount of messages are reaching peaks and the subscribers are demanding this change. Is there a way to do so, if affirmative please send me a message ! I thank you by beforehand, Kleber de Burgos Brasil@nlink.com.br P.s.: Eg. that's how I would like the lay-out of the digest message to be: "There are 2 messages totalling 56 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Found something 2. FS: 10FT SYSTEM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:04:35 -0400 From: Pia Cseri-Briones Subject: Re: Found something >>On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Jean Michael Pepper wrote: >>> Maybe some of you guys know about this, but I found a strange Sci-Fi show.....................................................................etc , etc ." From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 9 12:18:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA16230 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 12:05:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from marquis.netinc.ca (marquis.netinc.ca [205.211.8.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA16223 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 12:05:32 -0800 (PST) From: srudd@bible.ca Received: from dialup.www.netinc.ca (netserv3-9.netinc.ca [205.211.8.141]) by marquis.netinc.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA13148 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 14:49:10 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0b34.32.19961109150611.0114f9dc@bible.ca> X-Sender: srudd@bible.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b34 (32) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 15:06:15 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: best non-profit MLM? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I will be taking over two lists in Jan 97 of 300 subscribers each. They are non-profit lists running. Which software program is currently the all round best for my needs: 1. Automatic bounce control (I don't want a flurry of bounces each day) 2. key word searching of the archive Thanks! ____________________________________________ Steve Rudd 905-575-8437 Fax: 575-8814 srudd@bible.ca LOCAL INSTRUCTOR FOR: The Interactive Bible www.bible.ca From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 9 12:31:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA16750 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 12:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from marquis.netinc.ca (marquis.netinc.ca [205.211.8.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA16735 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 12:21:58 -0800 (PST) From: srudd@bible.ca Received: from dialup.www.netinc.ca (netserv3-9.netinc.ca [205.211.8.141]) by marquis.netinc.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA13560 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 1996 15:05:36 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0b34.32.19691231190000.007067a8@bible.ca> X-Sender: srudd@bible.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b34 (32) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 15:22:42 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: best non-profit MLM? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I will be taking over two lists in Jan 97 of 300 subscribers each. They are non-profit lists running. Which software program is currently the all round best for my needs: 1. Automatic bounce control (I don't want a flurry of bounces each day) 2. key word searching of the archive Thanks! ____________________________________________ Steve Rudd 905-575-8437 Fax: 575-8814 srudd@bible.ca LOCAL INSTRUCTOR FOR: The Interactive Bible www.bible.ca From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 10 14:01:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA10824 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 13:59:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest.net (iquest4.iquest.net [206.53.230.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA10817 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 13:59:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from ind-004-236-171.iquest.net by iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0vMhun-003iZTC; Sun, 10 Nov 96 16:59 EST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Machine-Knit-Owner" Organization: Machine-knit Email Discussion list To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 17:04:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Primenet.Com & CIS Reply-to: Machine-knit-owner@nyx.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.40) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Recently I've been receiving a rash of bounced emails from Compuserve and only today saw that they correlated with primenet.com. What does primenet have to do with CIS? What really ticks me off is there is no address in the bounce to tell me who is not receiving the mail. I have 2 primenet users and the only way to pin down the bouncer was to send a personal email to them both and then see which one bounced back and then I could only tell by the return headers. Excuse me, but when are these people going to wake up? Amy Amy Stinson Owner-Machine-knit Mailto:machine-knit-owner@nyx.net Http://www.iquest.net/~amys/machknit.htm From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 12 11:03:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA08615 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:50:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix3.panix.com ([198.7.0.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA08587 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from genie@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.7.6/8.7/PanixU1.3) id NAA25488; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 13:50:34 -0500 (EST) From: Andy Finkenstadt Message-Id: <199611121850.NAA25488@panix3.panix.com> Subject: GEIS.COM and GENIE.GEIS.COM royally munged To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 13:50:34 -0500 (EST) Cc: genie@panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I don't know what exactly happened, but GEIS.COM was put on hold by the Internic on 10-November-96. This affects hundreds of GEIS corporate E-mail customers (XX.GEIS.COM) as well as the thousands of mailboxes of GENIE.GEIS.COM by returning an authoritative "Host unknown" to any and all incoming mail. Please be aware of this as your lists process millions of bounces from the GEIS.COM (and the GENIE.COM -> GENIE.GEIS.COM translator) domains. I have alerted the technical operations folks at GEIS and GENIE, so no further action is required. Andy GEnie Postmaster -- Andrew Finkenstadt, The Printing House Ltd, Also a GEnie Sysop "By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began to suspect 'Hungry' ..." -- Gary Larson, "The Far Side" From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 12 14:18:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA25817 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:06:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from answerman.mindspring.com (answerman.mindspring.com [204.180.128.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA25769 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:06:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALNAME (user-168-121-55-2.dialup.mindspring.com [168.121.55.2]) by answerman.mindspring.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA23236 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 17:18:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 17:18:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611122218.RAA23236@answerman.mindspring.com> X-Sender: tracey@pop.mont.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Tracey McCartney Subject: Re: GEIS.COM and GENIE.GEIS.COM royally munged Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:50 PM 11/12/96 -0500, you wrote: >I don't know what exactly happened, but GEIS.COM was put on hold by the >Internic on 10-November-96. > Someone forget to pay the annual domain registration fee? : ) Tracey McCartney, Enforcement Coordinator Central Alabama Fair Housing Center tracey@mindspring.com fair_housing-owner@majordomo.pobox.com (Disclaimer: The views represented herein are my own and do not represent those of the Central Alabama Fair Housing Center, its board of directors or its staff.) From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 12 15:06:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA29665 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:57:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from stout.entertain.com ([199.45.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA29586 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:56:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from drummond@localhost) by stout.entertain.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA11962 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:56:25 -0700 From: Rachel Drummond Message-Id: <199611122256.PAA11962@stout.entertain.com> Subject: Re: GEIS.COM and GENIE.GEIS.COM royally munged To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:56:25 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >I don't know what exactly happened, but GEIS.COM was put on hold by the > >Internic on 10-November-96. > > > > Someone forget to pay the annual domain registration fee? : ) > > > Tracey McCartney, Enforcement Coordinator > Central Alabama Fair Housing Center > tracey@mindspring.com > fair_housing-owner@majordomo.pobox.com > (Disclaimer: The views represented herein are my own and do not represent > those of the Central Alabama Fair Housing Center, its board of directors or > its staff.) Actually, many of our customers have had their domain names put on hold when they were paid up and current. This announcement made me wonder if it was simply another InterNic billing mistake. Rachel -- Rachel Drummond, ABWAM, Inc. Phone: 303-730-6050 drummond@abwam.com Fax: 303-730-6823 From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 12 17:21:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA09265 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 17:00:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix3.panix.com ([198.7.0.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id QAA09170 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:59:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from genie@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.7.6/8.7/PanixU1.3) id TAA19066; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 19:58:16 -0500 (EST) From: Andy Finkenstadt Message-Id: <199611130058.TAA19066@panix3.panix.com> Subject: Re: GEIS.COM and GENIE.GEIS.COM royally munged To: drummond@stout.entertain.com (Rachel Drummond) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 19:58:15 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199611122256.PAA11962@stout.entertain.com> from "Rachel Drummond" at Nov 12, 96 03:56:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > >I don't know what exactly happened, but GEIS.COM was put on hold by the > > >Internic on 10-November-96. > > > > Someone forget to pay the annual domain registration fee? : ) > > Actually, many of our customers have had their domain names put on hold > when they were paid up and current. This announcement made me wonder if > it was simply another InterNic billing mistake. My announcement was neutral for this very reason. It states the fact, it does not ascribe motive to either party. It just lets list managers know that we(GEIS) know something is 'up', and that it's being taken care of, so as to reduce the alarm at suddenly having perfectly working addresses turn into phantoms literally overnight. Andy -- Andrew Finkenstadt, The Printing House Ltd, Also a GEnie Sysop "By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began to suspect 'Hungry' ..." -- Gary Larson, "The Far Side" From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 13 00:47:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA02625 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 00:43:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov (sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id AAA02618 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 00:43:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2A VAX) id 13; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 00:43:13 PST Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 00:43:08 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: tracey@mont.mindspring.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009AB484.1AE6409A.13@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: GEIS.COM and GENIE.GEIS.COM royally munged Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"tracey@mont.mindspring.com" 12-NOV-1996 14:37:09.70 > Subj: Re: GEIS.COM and GENIE.GEIS.COM royally munged > At 01:50 PM 11/12/96 -0500, you wrote: > >I don't know what exactly happened, but GEIS.COM was put on hold by the > >Internic on 10-November-96. > > > > Someone forget to pay the annual domain registration fee? : ) > Now wouldn't that be ironic - GE forgetting to pay their "utility bill"! But. more than likely, you-know-who screwed up, again... > > Tracey McCartney, Enforcement Coordinator > Central Alabama Fair Housing Center > tracey@mindspring.com > fair_housing-owner@majordomo.pobox.com > (Disclaimer: The views represented herein are my own and do not represent > those of the Central Alabama Fair Housing Center, its board of directors or > its staff.) > > -HWM From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 13 12:17:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA01882 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:15:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA01875 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:15:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA10654; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:13:13 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19961113122210.0071ba80@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:27:25 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ Cc: mel@herald.co.uk, rox@tara-lu.com, gerald@hwg.org, khyri@idyllmtn.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I wanted you other mailing list owners and managers to be informed of what I think is a very irresponsible and problematic web site. Someone calling themselves "ZIA" (http://www.zia.com/) has a site at http://www.discussion.com/. The page features a search engine and reads: >Getting on and off a mailing list just got a whole lot easier! > >Search, subscribe, unsubscribe and set options for 10's of thousands >of mailing lists using simple forms input. > >For those new to mailing lists or discussion groups, they provide a >unique method of exchanging ideas on almost >any topic in the known universe. The best part is that the messages >arrive as e-mail, and you can reply just as you >would to any e-mail. Mailing lists tend to create a more close knit >community than do newsgroups, and they >usually having a lower noise ratio and much less flaming. Mailing >lists also can be started by anyone, so enjoy, and >check back often to find out about new lists. The search engine apparently contains mailing lists they've culled from the net somehow. They sure didn't ask me about 'em. And yet when I type in: [idyllmtn ] ( ) Match whole words (*) Concept search ...I get back the following: > Mailing Lists Mailing list menu > > > idyllmtn-news > Idyll Mountain Internet company newsletter > _________________________________________________________________ > > List administration information: > Silicon lifeform: Majordomo@idyllmtn.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Subscribe, Unsubscribe or Set Options > Your name: > ________________________________________ > > Your E-mail address: > ________________________________________ > > Subscribe or Unsubscribe > ___Subscribe to the idyllmtn-news mailing list. > ___Unsubscribe from the idyllmtn-news mailing list. > > Select an option below only if the default indicated is not desired, > or if you want to change your current settings. > You may change your settings at any time. > > ___Default: Sends you individual messages > ___Sends digests rather than individual messages > > ___Default: No Acknowledgment is sent > ___Confirms that you sent a message to the list > > ___Default: Shows your name in a REVIEW command > ___Hides your name from a REVIEW command > > ___Default: Makes your subscription active > ___Suspends your subscription until the next ACTIVE command > > ___Default: Include sender of message in distribution of message > ___Do not include sender in distribution of message > > Submit Reset To me, this is clearly wrong for several reasons: * I did not ask to be included in their index. (They apparently only have some of the idyllmtn.com lists, not all of them.) * I did not ask for them to set up a web interface to my mailing list. If I wanted to provide this, I'd do it myself. * They encourage people joining a mailing list based SOLELY on the description of the list, and not even on the 'info' file. This is extremely irresponsible, especially given the fact that Liszt, a much better mailing list archive (http://www.liszt.com/) takes pains to specifically tell people NOT to join a list just based on the name and description -- which I think is the right approach. * Their form makes it easy to subscribe or unsubscribe anyone from a list. Admittedly, this is easy enough for one to do if they know what they're doing (forging email is trivial), but I think this goes over the top on an already irresponsible site. * My list software (Majordomo) doesn't even _have_ any of the options listed above, so their form is both misleading and plain wrong, period. Additionally, their 'response page' consists of: >idyllmtn-news > > Your subscription request to the idyllmtn-news mailing list has been > processed. You will receive mail from the list server with further > instructions. > The Recipients: Majordomo@idyllmtn.com > Return to previous page. * To me, this comes real close to pretending to be officially connected with _my_ mailing list, something that really bothers me as the list owner. Does anyone else agree or disagree with this? Am I overreacting? (I don't think so, but you're free to say it.) As for online indices of mailing lists, I'm much, _much_ more comfortable with the policies of Liszt, who seem to be much more responsible and a better net citizen. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Tibetan Mastiff Owner / www.idyllmtn.com/tm/ From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 13 15:53:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA14411 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 15:37:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA14395 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 15:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id RAA29359; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 17:38:42 -0600 Message-Id: <199611132338.RAA29359@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ To: kynn@idyllmtn.com (Kynn Bartlett) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 17:38:42 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, mel@herald.co.uk, rox@tara-lu.com, gerald@hwg.org, khyri@idyllmtn.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19961113122210.0071ba80@mail.idyllmtn.com> from "Kynn Bartlett" at Nov 13, 96 12:27:25 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kynn Bartlett said... | |Does anyone else agree or disagree with this? Am I overreacting? |(I don't think so, but you're free to say it.) I agree wholeheartedly with you. This is thoroughly bogus. -Miles meo@schoneal.com From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 07:32:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA14111 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 07:28:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [192.80.84.132]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA14101 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 07:27:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA08359; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:28:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:28:02 -0500 (EST) From: Brock Rozen To: Kynn Bartlett Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, mel@herald.co.uk, rox@tara-lu.com, gerald@hwg.org, khyri@idyllmtn.com Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19961113122210.0071ba80@mail.idyllmtn.com> Message-Id: X-Url: http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Kynn Bartlett wrote: > To me, this is clearly wrong for several reasons: > > * I did not ask to be included in their index. (They apparently > only have some of the idyllmtn.com lists, not all of them.) Neither did Yahoo when they searched your webpages and indexed them. > * They encourage people joining a mailing list based SOLELY on the > description of the list, and not even on the 'info' file. This > is extremely irresponsible, especially given the fact that Liszt, > a much better mailing list archive (http://www.liszt.com/) takes > pains to specifically tell people NOT to join a list just based > on the name and description -- which I think is the right approach. Did you ever ask them to remove you from their listing? > * Their form makes it easy to subscribe or unsubscribe anyone from > a list. Admittedly, this is easy enough for one to do if they > know what they're doing (forging email is trivial), but I think > this goes over the top on an already irresponsible site. Ever tried the subscribe_policy, unsubscribe_policy commands? > * My list software (Majordomo) doesn't even _have_ any of the > options listed above, so their form is both misleading and plain > wrong, period. That's a different story, and I agree with you on this. They've obviously programmed their pages for listproc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@webdreams.com | http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 09:32:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA21993 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA21980 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:18:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA07404; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:15:33 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19961114091951.00749894@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 Demo (32) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:29:51 -0800 To: Brock Rozen From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:28 AM 11/14/96 -0500, Brock Rozen wrote: >On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Kynn Bartlett wrote: >> To me, this is clearly wrong for several reasons: >> * I did not ask to be included in their index. (They apparently >> only have some of the idyllmtn.com lists, not all of them.) >Neither did Yahoo when they searched your webpages and indexed them. Say what? No offense, Brock, but you clearly don't know how Yahoo works. >> * They encourage people joining a mailing list based SOLELY on the >> description of the list, and not even on the 'info' file. >Did you ever ask them to remove you from their listing? No. Your point? (Answer: The question is immaterial. They're offering a 'service' to other people to subscribe to my lists via the web, and that's just not something I want.) >> * Their form makes it easy to subscribe or unsubscribe anyone from >> a list. >Ever tried the subscribe_policy, unsubscribe_policy commands? Since their script apparently _forges_ mail from the originating address, what value would these options have in stopping subscribe and/or unsubscribe requests? To my Majordomo, it looks exactly as if 'valor@lsh.org' had sent 'subscribe idyllmtn-news' or as if 'kynn@idyllmtn.com' had sent 'unsubscribe idyllmtn-news'. >> * My list software (Majordomo) doesn't even _have_ any of the >> options listed above, so their form is both misleading and plain >> wrong, period. >That's a different story, and I agree with you on this. They've obviously >programmed their pages for listproc. Well, at least you've found one thing you don't care for very much about their 'service.' -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Tibetan Mastiff Owner / www.idyllmtn.com/tm/ From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 10:25:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA25159 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:57:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [192.80.84.132]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA25048 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:57:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA13241; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:56:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:56:56 -0500 (EST) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: Brock Rozen To: Kynn Bartlett Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19961114091951.00749894@mail.idyllmtn.com> Message-Id: X-Url: http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Kynn Bartlett wrote: > >> To me, this is clearly wrong for several reasons: > >> * I did not ask to be included in their index. (They apparently > >> only have some of the idyllmtn.com lists, not all of them.) > >Neither did Yahoo when they searched your webpages and indexed them. > > Say what? > > No offense, Brock, but you clearly don't know how Yahoo works. They've indexed my web pages, and surely never asked for permission. I think you clearly have it wrong. > >> * They encourage people joining a mailing list based SOLELY on the > >> description of the list, and not even on the 'info' file. > >Did you ever ask them to remove you from their listing? > > No. Your point? (Answer: The question is immaterial. They're > offering a 'service' to other people to subscribe to my lists via > the web, and that's just not something I want.) Same goes for many of the web archiving/indexing services. You know what else is available on the Internet? People's phone numbers. Yup, millions of them. The yellow and white pages were put up for most of the major cities. Now you don't have to buy a cd, you just logon! You see, my point is that there are many things on the web that deal with information that we may not have asked to put up -- stuff I certainly wouldn't put up myself. Yet it is there... > >> * Their form makes it easy to subscribe or unsubscribe anyone from > >> a list. > >Ever tried the subscribe_policy, unsubscribe_policy commands? > > Since their script apparently _forges_ mail from the originating > address, what value would these options have in stopping subscribe > and/or unsubscribe requests? To my Majordomo, it looks exactly as The closed option would require ALL requests to be approved. Not that I would suggest doing this, sinceI personally wouldn't -- but it would "solve" the forging problem. Another feature that's even BETTER than closed is open+confirm -- it solves the forged subscription problem. I still think nobody would go through the hassle of a web form to do major un/subscribing. > if 'valor@lsh.org' had sent 'subscribe idyllmtn-news' or as if > 'kynn@idyllmtn.com' had sent 'unsubscribe idyllmtn-news'. As you yourself said, forging e-mail addresses is trivial. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@webdreams.com | http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 11:18:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA28314 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA28267 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kendall@localhost) by mail.his.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA01317 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:49:04 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:49:03 -0500 (EST) From: "Kendall P. Bullen" Reply-To: "Kendall P. Bullen" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is getting a bit silly. On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Brock Rozen wrote: *They've indexed my web pages, and surely never asked for permission. There is a way to put something in your web directory so that intelligent robots won't index them. (I presume Yahoo respects that, but I haven't checked.) *You see, my point is that there are many things on the web that deal with *information that we may not have asked to put up -- stuff I certainly *wouldn't put up myself. Yet it is there... That's different; that's information that any bozo could get by dialing either 411, 1-xxx-555-1212, or 1-800-555-1212, so that's not a good analogy. To sum up: You can choose to have an unlisted number; you can choose to put a file in your web directory so that it won't be indexed; there is no similar method to tell weirdos like those people, "Don't add my mailing list to your list of mailing lists." Kendall From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 12:18:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA02421 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:02:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [192.80.84.132]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA02399 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:01:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA14540; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:01:47 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:01:47 -0500 (EST) From: Brock Rozen To: "Kendall P. Bullen" Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Url: http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Kendall P. Bullen wrote: > To sum up: You can choose to have an unlisted number; you can choose to > put a file in your web directory so that it won't be indexed; there is no > similar method to tell weirdos like those people, "Don't add my mailing > list to your list of mailing lists." Did you ever ask them?? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@webdreams.com | http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 12:27:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA02992 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:12:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA02984 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) id QQbpvk26649; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:12:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <1.F8EE43DB@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 21:12:14 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 1737; Thu, 14 Nov 96 21:06:19 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 6130; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 21:06:18 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 20:55:15 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:49:03 -0500 (EST) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:49:03 -0500 (EST) "Kendall P. Bullen" said: >To sum up: You can choose to have an unlisted number; you can choose to >put a file in your web directory so that it won't be indexed; there is >no similar method to tell weirdos like those people, "Don't add my >mailing list to your list of mailing lists." Actually, for LISTSERV there is (since 1988), but the mailing list directories always make sure to ignore it. Here's why: Number of LISTSERV lists that want to be indexed (default option): 9,913 Number of LISTSERV lists that SPECIFICALLY asked not to be indexed: 32,640 So, only 9913 / 42553 = 23.3% of the LISTSERV lists want to be indexed. What a bummer! These list owners can be so insensitive. Do they really want me to cut 32.6k lists out of my directory when every single additional one makes my site more popular and more likely to get listed in web reviews as being the largest mailing list directory in the world, and receive more visits which put advertisement $$$ in my pocket? Surely if these people were in my shoes, they would agree to be listed. So let's list them all! No need to waste their time confirming my theory. Also, let's list some of them twice (where the site has a CNAME), to increase the head count. Finally, let's make sure never to sweep old lists that have been deleted. This way it looks like we have even more lists! Eric From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 12:32:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA03507 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:20:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil ([131.218.204.98]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA03500 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:20:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1); Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:24:31 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:24:31 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 13:49 11/14/96, Kendall P. Bullen said: >*They've indexed my web pages, and surely never asked for permission. > >There is a way to put something in your web directory so that intelligent >robots won't index them. (I presume Yahoo respects that, but I haven't >checked.) Yep, it's a robots.txt file. Works great, too (tho not all robots respect it, most seem to). Go here FMI: - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Boycott Internet Spam! From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 12:43:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA03755 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:26:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [198.77.86.217]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA03747 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (zach@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id PAA10804; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:27:09 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:27:08 -0500 (EST) From: Zach Nobel X-Sender: zach@solstice Reply-To: Zach Nobel To: "Kendall P. Bullen" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Avoiding getting your list on sites like ZIA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > To sum up: You can choose to have an unlisted number; you can choose to > put a file in your web directory so that it won't be indexed; there is no > similar method to tell weirdos like those people, "Don't add my mailing > list to your list of mailing lists." One thing you can do if you're using majordomo is to utilize the noadvertise option. This way you can do handy things like not advertise to anyone except local members (or people from a specific domain name). I believe the reason this would work (and Teleport(.com) my employer for 1.3 years implemented this) is because the 'gathering' scripts that people like the makers of the ZIA site use simply send out a query to the local list server, asking for an 'index'. Ie, if you're not advertising, they won't get your name... This, combined with the new 'confirm' feature of majordomo, gives the list owners of majordomo some handy tools to filter out unwanted attention (such as spammers, who use the index commands, and open door policy's of lax lists, to their advantage). I've just checked, and it seems that they haven't picked up any of Teleport's lists, which lends credence to what I'm saying (to me at least). FYI (perhaps you'll find this usefull?) Zach _________ Zachariah Nobel, Assistant in Internet Services Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology (CREST) zach@crest.org From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 13:48:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA08534 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:35:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from izzy4.izzy.net (izzy4.izzy.net [198.108.102.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id NAA08442 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:34:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from UUatbbs@localhost) by izzy4.izzy.net (8.8.0/8.6.9) id QAA02672 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:31:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: izzy4.izzy.net: UUatbbs set sender to atbbs!dbsmith using -f >Received: by atbbs.com (0.99.960714) id AA00522; 14 Nov 96 10:13:06 -0500 From: dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith) Date: 13 Nov 96 20:01:10 -0500 Subject: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://w Message-ID: <50b_9611141013@atbbs.com> References: <3.0.32.19961113122210.0071ba80@mail.idyllmtn.com> Organization: American Tune BBS To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk KB>> Your subscription request to the idyllmtn-news mailing list has been KB>> processed. You will receive mail from the list server with further KB>> instructions. KB>> The Recipients: Majordomo@idyllmtn.com KB>> Return to previous page. KB>* To me, this comes real close to pretending to be officially connected KB> with _my_ mailing list, something that really bothers me as the list KB> owner. KB>Does anyone else agree or disagree with this? Am I overreacting? KB>(I don't think so, but you're free to say it.) No, I think you are correct. The description of at least one of my maillists, for example, would convince some folks the list is a nice place for casual, freeform discussion about darn near anything. That is true ... but the list is also intended to be restricted to a relative handful of people from a very specialized group. So people could potentially try to subscribe to the list who didn't really belong there. Just as well; the list is closed for subscriptions to post, although anyone can subscribe to receive the list. ___ X SLMR 2.1a X 58. Include your Children when Baking Cookies --- Maximus 3.01 * U'NI-net: American Tune BBS * Ann Arbor, MI * (313)663-6232 SEEN-BY: 40822/16069 1/1 2 -- >> How's my typing? Email sysop@atbbs.com .. >> My views are sometimes not even my own, much less anyone else's. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 15:03:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA13893 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA13881 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kendall@localhost) by mail.his.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA25616; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:27:28 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:27:27 -0500 (EST) From: "Kendall P. Bullen" To: Brock Rozen cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Brock Rozen wrote: *> similar method to tell weirdos like those people, "Don't add my mailing *> list to your list of mailing lists." * *Did you ever ask them?? I'm not the one with the problem, and I was speaking more generally. Plus, I have to admit, that it annoys me to realize that I now have to go check that site -- and that there could be other out there I'd never find out about, or would have to hunt down. Asking is great for that one person, in that one instance, assuming they pay attention . . . but it raises a broader issue, I feel. Perhaps it's just me, though. ;) kendall From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 15:17:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA19218 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:05:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom15.netcom.com (netcom15.netcom.com [192.100.81.128]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA19147 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:05:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (grafolog@localhost) by netcom15.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id XAA10448; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 23:05:24 GMT Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 23:05:24 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon X-Sender: grafolog@netcom15 To: Zach Nobel cc: "Kendall P. Bullen" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Avoiding getting your list on sites like ZIA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: x-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Zach Nobel wrote: > I've just checked, and it seems that they haven't picked up any of > Teleport's lists, which lends credence to what I'm saying (to me at > least). Could be they just haven't gotten around to sending something to Teleport, to find out what lists are on Teleport. I did check for a few lists I know of, on various hosts, and found some of them --- though not using the terms I'd expect them to. And found as many, or more mismatches, as correct matches. xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com * * * * * * * * A "Crew Cut" was originally used at the University of Washington, to differentiate the rowing club members from the rest of the student body. Originally the club members wanted to wear leather jackets, but the Board of Regents wouldn't hear of that idea. So the idea became one that they would have identical hair cuts. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 15:32:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA21354 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:27:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA21328 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:27:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:32:08 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:32:08 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just noticed this ... >On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Kynn Bartlett wrote: > >> * My list software (Majordomo) doesn't even _have_ any of the >> options listed above, so their form is both misleading and plain >> wrong, period. ** Sometime around 10:28 11/14/96, Brock Rozen said: >That's a different story, and I agree with you on this. They've obviously >programmed their pages for listproc. Um, *no*, they haven't obviously programmed their pages with listproc in mind, since some of the commands they use do not employ the proper syntax for listproc. - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Boycott Internet Spam! From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 15:47:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA22358 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ami.tom.computerworks.net (AMI.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.95.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA22322 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:42:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com by ami.tom.computerworks.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vOBQF-0021dmC; Thu, 14 Nov 96 18:42 EST Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA04304 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:45:57 -0600 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199611142345.RAA04304@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:45:56 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > *> similar method to tell weirdos like those people, "Don't add my mailing > *> list to your list of mailing lists." > * > *Did you ever ask them?? As someone who keeps a compilation of mailing lists, this is something I have a strong opinion about. I shouldn't have to ask them to take my lists out of their collection. They should ask *me* if I want mine included. Or I should solicit them and ask them to do so. It's not that easy getting people to change things, either. Trust me on this, I've spent a lot of time chasing down references trying to get people to modify their listings. It's not just commericial entities either. Sometimes it's well-meaning but clueless people out there who think they're doing the right thing by putting in a mailto: link to my majordomo on their web page and who don't understand why I would want them to remove it. Getting people to remove stuff like this can be like pulling teeth. There's an amazing amount of inertia on the web. This is unfortunately fueled by those pages out there who "rank" the net and give high grades to those with pretty graphics and lots of links. Dunno, I always looked for quality and useful info as opposed to quantity and surface gloss. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 18:02:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA03722 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from old-bb.hks.net (old-bb.hks.net [199.183.60.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA03679 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:00:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from field@localhost) by old-bb.hks.net (8.6.9/8.6.9-bb2) id UAA18130 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 20:57:48 -0500 Received: from GATEWAY by bb.com with netnews for list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers@greatcircle.com) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 19:59:31 -0600 From: "EasySoft" Message-ID: <01bbd299.17e60380$eb97eaa8@mario> Organization: EasySoft References: <199611142345.RAA04304@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: emailing list posibility Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, everybody. I'm email compiling but sometimes, the people don't like to receive unsolicited messages, how can i found a good mailing list. In my oppinion I have a good program to send to opportunity seekers, if you like you can visit my web page to write to me your oppinion http://www.geocities.com/wallstreet/6682/money.com Thanks, your comments are welcome to easysoft@geocities.com From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 14 18:32:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA05308 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA05246 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:16:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from attitude.queernet.org (attitude.queernet.org [140.174.78.2]) by queernet.queernet.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA12041 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19961114181518.00d2d4dc@pop.queernet.org> X-Sender: rogerk@pop.queernet.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 beta 1 (32) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:15:22 -0800 To: "EasySoft" From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Subject: Re: emailing list posibility Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 07:59 PM 11/14/96 -0600, EasySoft wrote: >Hi, everybody. > >I'm email compiling but sometimes, the people don't like to receive >unsolicited messages, how can i found a good mailing list. > >In my oppinion I have a good program to send to opportunity seekers, if >you like you can visit my web page to write to me your oppinion > >http://www.geocities.com/wallstreet/6682/money.com > >Thanks, your comments are welcome to easysoft@geocities.com > > I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't understand the terminology. "Internet mailing lists" are not lists of Internet addresses which can be used to send advertising to. "Internet mailing lists" are lists of people with common interests who wish to carry on shared, non-commercial conversations about those interests with each other. On the other hand, if you already *did* understand the distinction, then fuck yourself all to hell. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 15 02:49:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA13592 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 02:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id CAA13528 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 02:18:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2A VAX) id 36; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 02:18:14 PST Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 01:11:10 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: easysoft@geocities.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009AB61A.59DB3E30.36@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: RE: emailing list posibility Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"easysoft@geocities.com" 14-NOV-1996 18:23:29.12 > Subj: emailing list posibility > Hi, everybody. > > I'm email compiling but sometimes, the people don't like to receive > unsolicited messages, how can i found a good mailing list. > > In my oppinion I have a good program to send to opportunity seekers, if > you like you can visit my web page to write to me your oppinion > > http://www.geocities.com/wallstreet/6682/money.com > > Thanks, your comments are welcome to easysoft@geocities.com I doubt that more than about 1-2 % of people that you email will appreciate the effort. Unsolicitied mass mailings are generally frowned upon, and can cause you a considerable about of grief. There are usenet groups devoted specifically to business like this - you'd be better off working there. Also, a pointer to your web page, as you've done abve, is usually considered socially acceptable - make them come to you. Put up a killer web page and laugh all the way to the bank. -HWM From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 15 05:02:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA19344 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 04:54:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu (spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id EAA19336 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 04:54:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA18949 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 08:00:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA13036 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 07:54:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 07:54:44 -0500 (EST) From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199611151254.HAA13036@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >*> similar method to tell weirdos like those people, "Don't add my mailing >*> list to your list of mailing lists." >* >*Did you ever ask them?? > >I'm not the one with the problem, and I was speaking more generally. >Plus, I have to admit, that it annoys me to realize that I now have to go >check that site -- and that there could be other out there I'd never find >out about, or would have to hunt down. Asking is great for that one >person, in that one instance, assuming they pay attention . . . but it >raises a broader issue, I feel. > >Perhaps it's just me, though. ;) No, it isn't "just you." I agree that this site's behavior is completely out of line. If I want my mailing lists advertised, *I'll* advertise them. I belong to several lists that are invitation-only, and I have managed invi- tation-only lists; the last time one of my lists was advertised, I wound up with one net.blowhard who actually complained to the site admin that I was "misusing" State resources by running a dedicated invitation-only list. (and not letting him in, of course) If someone wants to advertise my list, it is not unreasonable to expect them to ask first - *especially* since they already have the list-owner's address. Anything else is disrespectful to both the list owner and the list's members. --Wes From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 15 11:06:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA13213 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from gauntlet-1.trusted.com (gauntlet-1.trusted.com [204.254.155.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA13125 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by gauntlet-1.trusted.com; id NAA18032; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 13:44:26 -0500 Received: from dira.rv.tis.com(10.0.1.43) by gauntlet-1.trusted.com via smap (V3.1.1) id xma018029; Fri, 15 Nov 96 13:44:14 -0500 Received: (from mark@localhost) by dira.rv.tis.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id NAA03420 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 13:32:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 13:32:51 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Sienkiewicz Message-Id: <199611151832.NAA03420@dira.rv.tis.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Brock Rozen >Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ > >> ... there is no >> similar method to tell weirdos like those people, "Don't add my mailing >> list to your list of mailing lists." > >Did you ever ask them?? I find this question unacceptable. Last I heard, there were several million people using the Internet. Should I ask each and every one of them not to list my mailing list on a web page? Should I ask each of them not to send me chain letters? Should I ask each one not to collect my address and my *unlisted* phone number and publish it on the web? No, I guess not. My computer would spend years delivering all those messages. And I don't want millions of messages from them asking ME not to. Instead, I can devote my life to searching the internet for people who are including me in their databases, so I can ask them nicely to take me out. Sorry, I have better things to do. When you start providing a network service, you have to think about who you are harming by doing it. A little consideration will go a long way... From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 15 12:48:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA22537 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from itw.com (rsk.itw.com [206.138.122.70]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA21744 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by itw.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) id PAA16670 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:12:25 -0500 (EST) From: Rich Kulawiec Message-Id: <199611152012.PAA16670@itw.com> Subject: Is there an RFC which covers mailing list manager directives? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:12:24 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: rsk@itw.com Organization: GSP X-Last-River: Lehigh, PA X-Last-CD: WXPN New Music Sampler - Heart Beats X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk (I've checked the FAQ archive, the RFC archive, and the messages I've saved from the list -- can't find anything that matches this description. My apologies if I went right by it.) Having recently shifted my e-mail address, I've been interacting with a lot of majordomo/listserv/listproc/etc. software. It's occured to me that there's substantial end-user confusion out there because each of these accepts a slightly different syntax; has anybody written an RFC which attempts to lay out an Internet standard for this? If not, *should* somebody write an RFC which covers this? I can see where it would solve a large number of problems, and I'm somewhat surprised that it hasn't already been done. I can also see where it might be a contentious issue, with supporters of each software package's interface arguing that theirs should be the de facto standard. Rich Kulawiec rsk@itw.com From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 15 13:02:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA23416 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:33:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA23296 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA27415; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:32:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:32:01 -0800 (PST) From: Cyndi Norman Message-Id: <199611152032.MAA27415@weber.ucsd.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Subject: Advertising Lists Reply-to: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I agree with what many here have said...asking if the list-owner wishes to be included is just basic respect. Though I actually don't mind being listed in lists of lists of mailing lists or having my URL linked to. The problem is when people take it upon themselves to create shortcuts. Like the person who created a web link that said that my *posting* address was how one subscribed to list about colloildal silver (which has been mentioned once or twice in 5 years...). At least that webmaster changed the entry immediately when I asked him to. Or the people (usually my subscribers) who give out 2 email links on their web page...1 my admin address and 2 the posting address. And then say they aren't responsibile for stupid people who send subscribes or info requests to the wrong address (though she changed it too when I insisted). My preference is for people to either give out my admin email address (though I'm sick of the huge number of subscribers who stay a few days because they didn't realize the volume or range of topics of my list (things I put into my info files and on my web page)) or link directly to my web page if theirs is a web page. Then I can control the info people see and don't have to rely on others to update. Speaking of updating...I'm losing this account soon and have to move the list and webpages and everything else. I already have another account (not set up) and will probably get forwards for the email and web hits, but how do I update all the lists of lists and web links etc? After nearly 6 years of running this list at this address I am on more lists of lists than I can count or ever find. I didn't have to advertise the list after the first year (with the exception of putting it in Yahoo). I'll send notices to as many places as I can find and rely on forwards for the rest, I suppose. THere are literally hundreds of listings via alta vista for where my list is advertised. Any suggestions? Stephanie? Cyndi __________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@ucsd.edu ___________________________________________ http://weber.ucsd.edu/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 15 15:59:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA09579 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:33:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id PAA09569 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:33:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA23905 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:42:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from attitude.queernet.org (attitude.queernet.org [140.174.78.2]) by queernet.queernet.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA23433 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19961114094122.01655a54@pop.queernet.org> X-Sender: rogerk@pop.queernet.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 beta 1 (32) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:41:23 -0800 To: Kynn Bartlett From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ Cc: Brock Rozen , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:29 AM 11/14/96 -0800, Kynn Bartlett wrote: >No offense, Brock, but you clearly don't know how Yahoo works. Apparently YOU don't, or at least how most of the other crawlers work. They index whatever they can access. >>Ever tried the subscribe_policy, unsubscribe_policy commands? > >Since their script apparently _forges_ mail from the originating >address, what value would these options have in stopping subscribe >and/or unsubscribe requests? Lots, if you actually use current software. That's what "+confirm" is for; I'm finally comfortable enough to put up web-based subscription for my lists, now that it's here. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 15 19:20:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA04795 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA04786 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:14:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mcb@localhost) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) id TAA14692 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:13:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611160313.TAA14692@server.postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:13:25 +0000 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Or, "why I always read SMTP transactions in bounce messages"... > ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications ----- > (unrecoverable error) > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > ... while talking to mail.hotmail.com.: > >>> RCPT To: > <<< 554 User 's account discontinued due to prior misuse. > 554 ... Service unavailable Much more satisfying than a simple "User unknown"... -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 15 21:53:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA23469 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 21:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA23405 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 21:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.181.220.82] by colossus.arl.mil with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sat, 16 Nov 1996 00:48:33 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 00:49:48 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 19:14 11/15/96, Michael C. Berch said: >> <<< 554 User 's account discontinued due to prior misuse. >> 554 ... Service unavailable > >Much more satisfying than a simple "User unknown"... Yup, but it means yet *another* search string for the routine that processes the mail bounces. (I'm referring to a routine that I wrote, so *I* hafta go update it.) Gratifying nonetheless, though. (To be honest, I'd really like to see an RFC for mail-bounce formats.) - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Boycott Internet Spam! From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 00:17:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA11487 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 00:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id AAA11467 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 00:05:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from 207.33.130.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [207.33.130.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) with SMTP id AAA15404; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 00:04:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <328D75B9.119F@postmodern.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 00:05:23 -0800 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vince Sabio CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... References: ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 07:35:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.181.220.82] by colossus.arl.mil with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:39:49 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:41:01 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 00:05 11/16/96, Michael C. Berch said: >Vince Sabio wrote: > >> Yup, but it means yet *another* search string for the routine that >> processes the mail bounces. (I'm referring to a routine that I wrote, >> so *I* hafta go update it.) > >Wouldn't you be looking for the "<<< 5xx" in the case of a >sendmail transcript? No, it isn't NEARLY that simple. Wanna see a few *pages* of code? ;-) >In theory you should be able to parse out >the SMTP response codes without looking at the exact error message, >since that's not at all a fixed set. No, I need to parse the message, since many 5xx messages are not failures at all. For example, many 554s are "service unavailable" and "local configurations error" messages, and I *think* I've seen some that are delayed messages. Plus the "550 host unknown" responses -- which I've learned to just skip over (at this point; multiple-bounce processing to be implemented later). To simply accept every 5xx error would result in unsubscribing a LARGE portion of the active list. >> (To be honest, I'd really like to see an RFC for mail-bounce formats.) > >Actually, it exists. See RFC-1892, RFC-1893, and RFC-1894 >(the last of these is the actual specification). Hmmm ... too bad very few servers seem to follow it/them. - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Boycott Internet Spam! From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 08:32:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA29006 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 08:32:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from burnout.cts.com (burnout.cts.com [204.216.216.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA28999 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 08:32:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from donews.cts.com (root@donews.cts.com [192.188.72.21]) by burnout.cts.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA25219 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 08:32:42 -0800 Received: from fatcity.com by donews.cts.com with uucp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0vOnfI-00006bC; Sat, 16 Nov 96 08:32 PST Received: by fatcity.com (Wildcat) id 01937W Sat, 16 Nov 1996 08:02:33 GMT From: bruceb@fatcity.com (Bruce Bergman) Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 08:02:32 GMT Message-Id: <848131352@fatcity.com> Organization: Fat City BBS, San Diego, California To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -> >> <<< 554 User 's account discontinued due to prior misuse. -> >> 554 ... Service unavailable -> Yup, but it means yet *another* search string for the routine that -> processes the mail bounces. (I'm referring to a routine that I wrote, -> so *I* hafta go update it.) Really? You SHOULD be checking against the sendmail result codes -- they never change, regardless of the text. In the example above, 554. I too have my own mailing list software, and I don't have worry about lotsa new strings and such. Just use the numbers. That's why they were provided in the first place. -> (To be honest, I'd really like to see an RFC for mail-bounce formats.) You and me both. ;-) thanks, bruce From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 11:03:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA05364 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:55:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA05355; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:55:17 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:56:12 -0800 To: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio), List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brent Chapman Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:41 AM -0500 11/16/96, Vince Sabio wrote: >No, I need to parse the message, since many 5xx messages are not failures >at all. For example, many 554s are "service unavailable" and "local >configurations error" messages, and I *think* I've seen some that are >delayed messages. Plus the "550 host unknown" responses -- which I've >learned to just skip over (at this point; multiple-bounce processing to >be implemented later). > >To simply accept every 5xx error would result in unsubscribing a LARGE >portion of the active list. That's their problem, not yours... I decided long ago that I wasn't willing to accept somebody else's burping mailer as my problem. If somebody's mailer is sending bounces back to me, I don't really care what the bounces say; that somebody (if I can figure out who it is) is going onto our bounces list. If/when they get their problem fixed, they can resubscribe. If it happens often, they should either fix or replace their mailer. I have no sympathy for _their_ broken/buggy/paranoid/whatever mailer filling _our_ mailboxes up with bounces, though. >>> (To be honest, I'd really like to see an RFC for mail-bounce formats.) >> >>Actually, it exists. See RFC-1892, RFC-1893, and RFC-1894 >>(the last of these is the actual specification). > >Hmmm ... too bad very few servers seem to follow it/them. They're new; give 'em time. Current versions of Sendmail generate them, and it's already proven a great boon; about 40% of the bounce traffic we get back here (which is something like 20 MB per day) is from such systems. -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 11:48:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA07869 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:40:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA07836 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:40:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id NAA10071; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:41:27 -0600 Message-Id: <199611161941.NAA10071@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... To: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:41:27 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199611160313.TAA14692@server.postmodern.com> from "Michael C. Berch" at Nov 15, 96 07:13:25 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael C. Berch said... | |> >>> RCPT To: |> <<< 554 User 's account discontinued due to prior misuse. |> 554 ... Service unavailable This is simply *wonderful*. I love it! Is this a modified sendmail, or is this something configurable? I don't recall ever seeing a way to do this... -Miles From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 11:54:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA08229 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:46:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA08190 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:45:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id NAA10124; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:47:04 -0600 Message-Id: <199611161947.NAA10124@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Is there an RFC which covers mailing list manager directives? To: rsk@itw.com Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:47:03 -0600 (CST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199611152012.PAA16670@itw.com> from "Rich Kulawiec" at Nov 15, 96 03:12:24 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rich Kulawiec said... | |If not, *should* somebody write an RFC which covers this? I can see |where it would solve a large number of problems, and I'm somewhat |surprised that it hasn't already been done. I can also see where |it might be a contentious issue, with supporters of each software |package's interface arguing that theirs should be the de facto standard. I think it's a great idea. The base functionality is close enough that both should be capable of supporting their original and any new versions of commands for a while, perhaps always including a "this command is derprecated and will go away soon, so in the future please use blah" note when responding to the old versions. That would of course be part of the RFC. This would mean nothing would have to suddenly be broken by the new standard. And it's only the user interface that matters for this RFC. If people wnated a maintainer's RFC, that would be a separate issue (one I could care less about). -Miles From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 12:18:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA09231 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:06:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA09212 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:05:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from 207.33.130.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [207.33.130.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) with SMTP id MAA18318; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:05:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <328E1EB9.19F6@postmodern.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:07:14 -0800 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Is there an RFC which covers mailing list manager directives? References: <199611161947.NAA10124@wildride.schoneal.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk To summarize very brutally (:-)), RFC-1894 covers all this, essentially by defining a MIME-type for all kinds of delivery status messages (bounces, deferrals, success, etc.), and furthermore, I think that sendmail 8.7.x supports it (notice that sendmail bounces changed formats between 8.6.x and 8.7). I'll follow up on this with citations etc. if people are interested. In fact, I thought one of the authors of RFC01894 was on this list, no? -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 14:47:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA12821 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:41:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.proper.com (mail.proper.com [206.86.127.224]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA12812 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:41:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [165.227.249.100] (dharma.proper.com [165.227.249.100]) by mail.proper.com (8.8.2/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA27787; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:41:11 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: paulh@mail.proper.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199611161941.NAA10071@wildride.schoneal.com> References: <199611160313.TAA14692@server.postmodern.com> from "Michael C. Berch" at Nov 15, 96 07:13:25 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:42:06 -0800 To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Is this a modified sendmail, or is this something >configurable? I don't recall ever seeing a way to >do this... Doesn't look like sendmail unless they tweaked the default strings: # host -t mx hotmail.com. hotmail.com mail is handled (pri=5) by mail.hotmail.com # telnet mail.hotmail.com 25 Trying 206.86.127.195... Connected to mail.hotmail.com. Escape character is '^]'. 220 constitution.hotmail.com Server SMTP ready at Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:40:05 -0800 QUIT 221 constitution.hotmail.com Out Connection closed by foreign host. --Paul Hoffman --Paul Hoffman --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 14:54:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA12789 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolis.com (bolis.com [204.153.195.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA12782 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:39:41 -0800 (PST) Received: Received: from hock.bolis.com (root@hock.bolis.com [199.165.142.10]) by bolis.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA24384 ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:39:51 -0800 Received: from amillar.bolis.com by hock.bolis.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0vOtOv-000G0KC; Sat, 16 Nov 96 14:39 PST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Alan Millar" Organization: The Bolis Group To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:39:47 -800 Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 16 Nov 96 at 10:41, Vince Sabio wrote: > >Vince Sabio wrote: > >> Yup, but it means yet *another* search string for the routine that > >> processes the mail bounces. (I'm referring to a routine that I wrote, > >> so *I* hafta go update it.) > >Wouldn't you be looking for the "<<< 5xx" in the case of a > >sendmail transcript? There are far too many errors that return a 55X code, which are temporary problems that you know will be fixed. Just now I got one from CompuServe: "554... unknown mailer error 81". It rejected all of the addresses in the batch with the one error message. I have no idea what it means specifically, but I know from experience that it is simply a one-time glitch, and I don't want to unsubscribe people every time there is a single problem. Just this morning I was dealing with another user who gets kicked off a list on my system every few weeks. (I have a program which parses bounces and unsubscribes users.) His system will simply reject mail to him with "550... user unknown". One message out of thousands and thousands, but it occurs nonetheless. Naturally his system admins don't believe it even happens, despite the fact that I furnish them a copy of the actual bounce. And to a certain extent I don't blame them, because if it happens that infrequently how do you track it down? My conclusion is that *any* bounce can happen once, and should probably be ignored. I need to add some state information to make judgements like if address X bounces Y times within Z timeframe, unsubscribe it. But making it stateful is another can of worms I haven't opened yet. It has been easier to go by which bounce descriptions are more likely to be permanent and which are more likely to be temporary, which are simply learned by experience. And for what it is worth, I *HATE* "service unavailable". What the heck is THAT supposed to mean?!?! Oh, well :-) - Alan ---- Alan Millar amillar@bolis.com Owner, System Admin http://www.bolis.com Ask me about Internet mailing list services at Bolis.com $RELATIVE went to $LOCATION_NAME and all they got me was this lousy signature From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 19:33:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA19145 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 19:22:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom18.netcom.com (netcom18.netcom.com [192.100.81.131]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA19137 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 19:22:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (grafolog@localhost) by netcom18.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id DAA12398; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 03:22:23 GMT Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 03:22:21 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon X-Sender: grafolog@netcom18 To: Alan Millar cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: x-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan: On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, Alan Millar wrote: > for what it is worth, I *HATE* "service unavailable". What the heck > is THAT supposed to mean?!?! Oh, well :-) They haven't yet figured out how to send Muzak via e-mail, and they don't know what else to do. xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com * * * * * * * * A "Crew Cut" was originally used at the University of Washington, to differentiate the rowing club members from the rest of the student body. Originally the club members wanted to wear leather jackets, but the Board of Regents wouldn't hear of that idea. So the idea became one that they would have identical hair cuts. From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 16 23:18:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA27943 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 23:09:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from taz.hyperreal.com (taz.hyperreal.com [204.152.144.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id XAA27936 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 23:09:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by taz.hyperreal.com (8.7.6/V2.0) with SMTP id XAA18560; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 23:10:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 23:10:03 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Brock Rozen cc: Kynn Bartlett , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Alert: "ZIA" -- http://www.discussion.com/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Brock Rozen wrote: > On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Kynn Bartlett wrote: > > > >> To me, this is clearly wrong for several reasons: > > >> * I did not ask to be included in their index. (They apparently > > >> only have some of the idyllmtn.com lists, not all of them.) > > >Neither did Yahoo when they searched your webpages and indexed them. > > > > Say what? > > > > No offense, Brock, but you clearly don't know how Yahoo works. > > They've indexed my web pages, and surely never asked for permission. > > I think you clearly have it wrong. Kids, kids: Yahoo does not employ robots to index the web. Yahoo relies upon user-submitted URL's added to an information hierarchy. Sites like Infoseek and AltaVista do index the web. I think that's where the dispute was. Secondly: all the major search engines *claim* to obey the "robots.txt" de-facto specification: http://info.webcrawler.com/mak/projects/robots/norobots.html Though Excite doesn't always do that (heck, its nameserver cache keeps old name resolutions around for weeks as well, meaning old IP addresses get hits for them long after a site has been moved. But this is another story for another list...) Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- brian@hyperreal.com http://www.apache.org http://www.organic.com/jobs From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 17 14:48:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA23669 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 14:34:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id OAA22390 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 14:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA26214 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 21:32:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA03670 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 23:34:35 -0600 Message-Id: <199611150534.XAA03670@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Majordomo results: lists (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 23:34:35 -0600 (CST) From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bad news for Teleport.com; you don't need the info command, just the "lists" command. See below for the results. Compare those to our slightly modified "lists" command: ----------------- "lists" @ Schober O'Neal ------------------ >>>> lists Majordomo@hostname.schoneal.com serves the following lists: Use the 'info ' command to get more information about a specific list. ------------------ end of "lists" at SOI -------------------- And if you aren't on a list, even knowing its name won't help you. If you aren't a member of the list, "info listname" won't work either. I don't recall the details, but it was pretty easy to track down and comment out the code. It wouldn't be too hard to restrict it, I guess, but that was supposed to be happening in our version and wasn't working, and we made a conscious decision to keep them all private, anyway. If someone wants a public list, we'll talk about it - so far, nobody has. -Miles --------------------- results of "lists" @ teleport -------------------- >>>> lists Majordomo@teleport.com serves the following lists: 223-list News & discussion about 223 Freedom & Mutual Aid Ctr alldogs-l alldogs-l-digest amextech-l American Experience Tech. Committee Mailing List amigatele-l amtgard-bard Discussion of the Amtgard Bard antelope-l antelope husbandry; "keeping wild animals as pets" antelope-l-digest aquarium-delphi-digest assessment-l Intended for Conversations of Assessment atlas awo-l Telecommunications Information for Oregonians babin-l Barry Babin for Congress - Ore. 1st Cong. District backhaul Satellite sports backhauls observations and discussion bhs65-l bluheron bokononin-l brujah-l Mailing list for Clan Brujah. bushhacker-l Oregon Bushhackers. A SIG of NW Oregon 4x4 enthusiasts. bvi-bahn carltrip-l Messages from Carl Nielson aboard Mahina Tiare cascadia-contrib For Pacific Northwest journalists cascadia-news Cascadia News Service cascadia-publish For Pacific Northwest publishers ccgi Discussion of Clark County government issues. cedarbay-l cheese childfree-digest chs95-l clinics-l cohorts-l college-l College friend's list commonlaw commonlaw-digest compost con-con-l con-con-l-digest conservgenx For, About, and By The Conservative Generation X corrado-l-digest Mailing list dedicated to fans of the Volkswagen Corrado crackers Private list creditworthy-l-digest crochetpartners-l Crochet Partners: discussion group for crochet enthusias crochetpartners-l-digest Crochet Partners: crochet enthusiasts dada Simplex pontoons on the rotisserie, oblique damned-l Air Warrior, The Damned & Friends datapak-l decipher-netreps-l a private, closed list democracynow democracynow-digest dg-shopper Discussion and marketplace for Depression era glassware dg-shopper-digest Discussion and marketplace for Depression era glassware dnowch2 dnowch3 dnowpdx-or-l dragonboat dummylist-l dummylist-l-digest eesti enviro-l equipment-l eurock-l A list devoted to new music from Europe. ex-stream-l Mailing list for Ex-Employees of Stream/CSI february-l Women due to give birth in February 1996 figurepic FigurePic Picture Puzzles fija fija-digest forms-l Oregon Mensa E-mail list fors-announce "Friends of Randal Schwartz" (announce only - moderated) fors-discuss "Friends of Randal Schwartz" (discussion - unmoderated) fors-discuss-digest "Friends of Randal Schwartz" (discussion - unmoderated) fullmoon-l Non-Linear Digital Video user and addict support fungus gourmet mushroom cultivation info fungusarchives same email-newsletter as FUNGUS gadzooks-l ghso-l gnr gnr-digest goatslite goats; adjunct to serious GOATS@LISTPROC.WSU.EDU goatslite-digest goats; adjunct to vet/edu GOATS@listproc.wsu.edu grembo-l guru-l guru-l-digest hammernet-l hammernet-l-digest homeschool-l homeschool-l-digest hoyboy-l hoyboy-l-digest iap3-board-l-digest ibisnet improve infj-l-digest innersepdx-l-digest ippoetry-l the IP discussion list jancox johnson-l justice-nike-l News about campaign against Nike's labour abuses. kink-l details at http://www.kinkfm102.com/~kinknews kymr-l kymr-l is the "Keep Your Mac Running" List. lhs-l The LHS Mailing List lightmgl-l List for fans that like FF3! literati-l magika-auction-l mhcc-cas-l mhcc-cas-l-digest midimen-l Musical composition squad for the Icarus project. miles-l milkbone milkbone-digest mormhist nawl-l North American Wildfire Ltd. netbooks-l-digest netgame-l Portland Network Gamers Group Mailing List netgame-l-digest npaexec-l Discussion area for the Portland NPA Exec nw-warrior-l nwag NWAG North West Astronomy Group Mailing List nwlibertarians nwlibertarians-digest nwlibsch2-l nwscan-l North West Scanner Enthusiasts ocmhpa-l october96-l-digest oro-l p-adm-l pai-net Discussion of the PAI papyrus-l-digest Discussion List for the PAPYRUS Bibliography System papyrus-mac-l-digest Discussion List for the PAPYRUS Bibliography System for paracelsus paracelsus-digest pas-alert pdx-contra-l pdxnews-l News and information for Portland area activists pdxtss-l Portland specific scootering pfs-l pharmdocument This list discusses how to document clinical interventio phred-test pit-l Portland Interactive Theater-l: everyone welcome! planet-peace-l NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITY INTERNET PROJECT popscene-l Chat-based list for fans of the British band Blur. psych-evals pushme-l quantum-d r5echo rars-l The Official RARS mailing list. rars-l-digest The Official RARS mailing list digest. rca-l Rose City Astronomers member's mailing list rca-l-digest resource_focus Members of Portland's Resource Focus Group richard-l rrr-oregon-l for Oregonians who Reduce, Reuse, and Recycle saskia-l satsang satsang-digest sax-l shieldsfam skpswww Discussing WWW page creation in Salem-Keizer Schools. sla-l-digest smallhci snowboard-wholesale-l softball-l Ray DeMarini's softball mail list sop-l PBeM Game of Legends (Swords of Pelarn) sos-news-l oil spill cleanup volunteers mail list sps-l A list serving the Silverton Public Schools start-now-l Starting Now-Extra motivation to exercise daily start-now-l-digest students-l students-l-digest subsidies suhs-l The Unofficial Sandy Union H.S. Mailing List summit-l Summit High School 1975 Virtual Reunion synergetics-l-digest tafmal-l-digest The Anime Fansubs MAiling List team-l tech-biz tertium-quid-l tertium-quid-l-digest test-l testlist-l testmail-l the-world The World Mailing List top-l tri-met-update-l To receive notice of Tri-Met schedule changes. tri-met-update-l-digest Summaries of Tri-Met schedule changes. troop-mess McFlandry Royal Household Guard Mailing List twostroke-l Open discussion on classic motorscooters ufdl-l ufpi ufpi-digest vacets-adcom VACETS Adcom mailing list vacets-head vacets-vote vgap VGA Planets Mailing List vgap-digest VGA Planets Mailing List vista-l vss-l Teleport virtual server clients mailing list walkdigest walklist walklist-digest wbl-l For league openings, contact watashi@lclark.edu. webwork wrusers WRUSERS WaveRunner Users Mailing List wrusers-digest WRUSERS WaveRunner Users Mailing List wvgc-go Pacific Northwest Go News, Talk yannifans Yanni Fans Mailing list yannifans-digest Yanni Fans Mailing list Use the 'info ' command to get more information about a specific list. From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 17 16:47:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA27847 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 16:47:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from tech.cic.qc.ca (Dialup-5.ISDN.CAM.ORG [205.236.124.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id QAA27840 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 16:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tech@localhost) by tech.cic.qc.ca (8.7.6/8.7.3) id TAA00174; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 19:30:26 -0500 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 19:30:26 -0500 (EST) From: Christophe Dupre To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #239 In-Reply-To: <199611150900.BAA09575@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, List-Managers-Digest wrote: > > >> To me, this is clearly wrong for several reasons: > > >> * I did not ask to be included in their index. (They apparently > > >> only have some of the idyllmtn.com lists, not all of them.) > > >Neither did Yahoo when they searched your webpages and indexed them. > > > > Say what? > > > > No offense, Brock, but you clearly don't know how Yahoo works. > > They've indexed my web pages, and surely never asked for permission. > > I think you clearly have it wrong. AFAIK, Yahoo do not index automatically, URL are added by page owner/satisfied users. As for automated indexers, you have a way to tell them NOT to index your page: create a file called robot.txt with a special format telling them which directory not to index. BTW, I strongly disapprove of the said web site... From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 18 06:33:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA20774 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 06:21:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca [142.2.20.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id GAA20765 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 06:21:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (950221.405.SGI.8.6.10/920502.SGI.AUTO) for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM id KAA12794; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:19:18 -0400 From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Message-Id: <199611181419.KAA12794@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... & due process To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:19:00 -0400 (AST) In-Reply-To: <199611161941.NAA10071@wildride.schoneal.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Nov 16, 96 01:41:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >|> >>> RCPT To: >|> <<< 554 User 's account discontinued due to prior misuse. >|> 554 ... Service unavailable >This is simply *wonderful*. I love it! Although it is nice to know what happened, we should keep in mind that usually these cancellations are unilateral actions by overworked system administrators and there isn't much chance to appeal or otherwise try to set the record straight. The more you punish the offender (in this case by publicising the offence), the more you are obligated to play by rules of fair play and due process. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 18 09:40:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA00747 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:23:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom6.netcom.com (netcom6.netcom.com [192.100.81.114]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA00740 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (arcie@localhost) by netcom6.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id KAA06780; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:23:36 -0700 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:23:36 -0700 (MST) From: Randy Cassingham X-Sender: arcie@netcom6 To: List Managers List Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Passing along, as requested. I noted the one time I posted, there were problems too -- took a good week to appear.... / Randy Cassingham * Author, "This is True" * arcie@netcom.com \ | For info on What I Do, send a blank e-mail to TrueInfo@freecom.com | \ or check out * I promise you'll like it / ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:41:56 -0500 From: Vince Sabio To: Randy Cassingham Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... Randy, Would you mind posting this for me? (It's okay if you do.) I posted it, and it didn't get distributed. I checked the trash & couldn't find it, so I figured I must have screwed up, so I posted it again. Still no dice. My curiosity was piqued, so I tried posting it from my HumourNet account. STILL no dice. - Vince ** Sometime around 10:56 11/16/96, Brent Chapman said: >At 10:41 AM -0500 11/16/96, Vince Sabio wrote: >> >>To simply accept every 5xx error would result in unsubscribing a LARGE >>portion of the active list. > >That's their problem, not yours... That's your position, not mine... ;-) - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Boycott Internet Spam! From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 18 17:33:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA01552 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:23:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA01543 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mcb@localhost) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) id RAA27561; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:22:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611190122.RAA27561@server.postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:22:59 +0000 In-Reply-To: <199611181419.KAA12794@biome.bio.dfo.ca> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... & due process Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) wrote: > >|> >>> RCPT To: > >|> <<< 554 User 's account discontinued due to prior misuse. > >|> 554 ... Service unavailable > >This is simply *wonderful*. I love it! > > Although it is nice to know what happened, we should keep in mind that > usually these cancellations are unilateral actions by overworked system > administrators and there isn't much chance to appeal or otherwise try to > set the record straight. The more you punish the offender (in this case > by publicising the offence), the more you are obligated to play by rules > of fair play and due process. I suspect we are getting far beyond issues relevant to List-Managers here, but personally I have a completely laissez-faire attitude about relationships between ISPs (specifically e-mail service providers) and their users, preferrring to leave such concepts as "fair play" and "due process" to the paries to define as they may agree in the provider-user contract. Clearly there may be vastly different rules for employer- or school-based accounts, free/guest accounts, and commercial accounts, and I don't feel comfortable trying to dictate to a provider what the proper standard of conduct should be. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 18 19:07:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA07942 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id SAA07928 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:53:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA05539 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:59:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.181.220.82] by colossus.arl.mil with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:04:34 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:05:46 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 10:56 11/16/96, Brent Chapman said: >At 10:41 AM -0500 11/16/96, Vince Sabio wrote: >> >>To simply accept every 5xx error would result in unsubscribing a LARGE >>portion of the active list. > >That's their problem, not yours... That's your position, not mine... ;-) - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Boycott Internet Spam! From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 21 04:39:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA19190 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 04:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from nis.student.dtu.dk (nis.student.dtu.dk [130.225.87.187]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id EAA19178 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 04:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from bohr.gbar.dtu.dk (bohr.gbar.dtu.dk [130.225.87.169]) by nis.student.dtu.dk (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA17859 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:34:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from bohr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bohr.gbar.dtu.dk (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id NAA15595 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:34:00 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <32944C37.BDF@www.pol.dk> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:33:59 +0100 From: Klavs Mikael Vangsted Riisager X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; HP-UX B.10.20 9000/780) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Majordomo for WINDOWS NT - WHERE? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm looking for a version of Majordomo to run on Windows NT. I got a sendmail (metainfos port of sendmail), but at the moment I have no time to port the code to WIN NT. If somebody got a port/hack for WIN NT (3.51 or 4.0) I would be very happy to hear from you. KR From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 21 12:41:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA18934 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA18926 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01IC410Z2P3KAEKUGD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:53 EDT Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:53 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Bulk emailing quote request (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <01IC410Z2P3KAEKUGD@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"jkroeger@squirrel.owl.de" "Johannes Kroeger" 21-NOV-1996 11:47:28.00 To: IN%"remailer-operators@c2.net" CC: Subj: Bulk emailing quote request (fwd) I just found the following offer in my junk mailbox. Does anyone know more about Ajax Communications and their "respectable client" and what's the best reaction to this crap? -- Johannes Kroeger Send me mail with subject "send pgp-key" to get my PGP key Forwarded message: > Message-ID: > Priority: Normal > To: remailer , remailer , > remailer , remailer , > remailer , remailer , > remailer , remailer , > remailer , remailer , > remailer , > remailer , remailer , > remailer , remailer , > remailer , remailer , > remailer , remailer > MIME-Version: 1.0 > From: Neil > Subject: Bulk emailing quote request > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 13:55:00 PST > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Dear Sir/Madam, > > I work for a company called Ajax Communications and we have a respectable= > client who needs to do a mass e-mail shot. The e-mail which needs to go = > out would need to be anonymous. > > Our client would need the e-mail shot carried out in 2 phases: > > 1. 10,000 shots to go to UK addresses as soon as possible. > > 2. After a response from phase 1 is known, a further 990,000 shots to go = > to UK addresses. > > Questions: > > a. Can you do it ? > > b. Will you do it ? > > c. Can you trawl for UK addresses for us ? > > If 'Yes' to all 3, how much will it cost us ? > > Please could you let me know either way, by contacting me either by e-mai= > l or using the following telephone number : > > Tel. +44 1443 223835 and ask to speak to myself or Doug Brown. > > We are based just outside Cardiff in Wales, UK. > > Thanks in anticipation, > > > Neil Ross > Technical Manager. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 21 13:39:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA21170 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:24:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id NAA21158 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:24:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:29:04 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:29:06 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Subject: Re: Bulk emailing quote request (fwd) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 14:53 11/21/96, E. Allen Smith said: >I just found the following offer in my junk mailbox. >Does anyone know more about Ajax Communications and their >"respectable client" and what's the best reaction to this crap? The "best reaction" is to head them off at the pass, and notify their ISP of their intent to spam. >> From: Neil The MX record for ajax.astra.co.uk resolves to sol.stargate.co.uk. But at this point, I hit the wall -- who knows how to get WHOIS info on UK sites? Also, when posting these messages, you need to include the extended headers -- that is, all the "Received" lines in the header. CCing SPAM-L on this ... - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Boycott Internet Spam! From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 21 14:46:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA24466 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA24424 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01IC46O0BMBCAEKUJ0@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:34 EDT Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:34 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: Bulk emailing quote request (fwd) To: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil Cc: remailer-operators@c2.org, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <01IC46O0BMBCAEKUJ0@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM X-VMS-To: IN%"wavelet@colossus.arl.mil" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"remailer-operators@c2.org",IN%"List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"wavelet@colossus.arl.mil" 21-NOV-1996 16:59:20.58 >** Sometime around 14:53 11/21/96, E. Allen Smith said: Sorry if I wasn't clear; that was a forwarded message. I've CC'd this reply to remailer-operators@c2.org, which is where I got the original message from. >>I just found the following offer in my junk mailbox. >>Does anyone know more about Ajax Communications and their >>"respectable client" and what's the best reaction to this crap? >The "best reaction" is to head them off at the pass, and notify their >ISP of their intent to spam. >>> From: Neil >The MX record for ajax.astra.co.uk resolves to sol.stargate.co.uk. But >at this point, I hit the wall -- who knows how to get WHOIS info on UK >sites? >Also, when posting these messages, you need to include the extended >headers -- that is, all the "Received" lines in the header. >CCing SPAM-L on this ... What's the address on that? Thanks, -Allen From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 21 14:55:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA24872 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:46:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA24864 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:46:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:50:54 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:50:54 -0500 To: "E. Allen Smith" From: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Subject: Re: Bulk emailing quote request (fwd) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 17:34 11/21/96, E. Allen Smith said: >From: IN%"wavelet@colossus.arl.mil" 21-NOV-1996 16:59:20.58 > >>CCing SPAM-L on this ... > > What's the address on that? SPAM-L is the "Spam Prevention Discussion List" List Address: SPAM-L@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM Server Address: LISTSERV@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM subscribe spam-l your_name I'll forego the usual list-address-vs-server-address song-n-dance, considering that this IS the list-managers list. ;-) BTW, the SPAM-L server seems to be down (it's been pretty quite for the past few hours, which is rare for them), so don't panic if your subscription request isn't acknowledged right away. - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Boycott Internet Spam! From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 21 15:24:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA26325 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:18:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from stout.entertain.com (stout.entertain.com [199.45.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA26318 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from drummond@localhost) by stout.entertain.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA19530 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:18:31 -0700 From: Rachel Drummond Message-Id: <199611212318.QAA19530@stout.entertain.com> Subject: Re: Bulk emailing quote request (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:18:30 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >> The MX record for ajax.astra.co.uk resolves to sol.stargate.co.uk. But > >> at this point, I hit the wall -- who knows how to get WHOIS info on UK > >> sites? > > > >When researching lots of European sites, I've had to go to rs.ripe.net, > >available as: > > > >whois -h whois.ripe.net > > I responded personally to Vince on this, but then thought the info might be useful to the rest of the list needing to track down European (and Asian) addresses. Rachel -- Rachel Drummond, ABWAM, Inc. Phone: 303-730-6050 drummond@abwam.com Fax: 303-730-6823 From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 21 16:53:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA29004 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:49:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from izzy4.izzy.net (izzy4.izzy.net [198.108.102.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id QAA28988 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:49:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from UUatbbs@localhost) by izzy4.izzy.net (8.8.0/8.6.9) id TAA04515 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:45:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: izzy4.izzy.net: UUatbbs set sender to atbbs!dbsmith using -f >Received: by atbbs.com (0.99.960714) id AA00600; 21 Nov 96 19:48:19 -0500 From: dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith) Date: 21 Nov 96 18:13:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Bulk emailing quote Message-ID: <7a2_9611211948@atbbs.com> References: Organization: American Tune BBS To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk VS>Also, when posting these messages, you need to include the extended VS>headers -- that is, all the "Received" lines in the header. VS>CCing SPAM-L on this ... VS>- Vince S. VS> wavelet@colossus.arl.mil BTW, how do I find SPAM-L, which I assume is a mailling list on Spam-counterinsurgency, if you will? ___ X SLMR 2.1a X Ain't the USA Grand? We *wallow* in political ignorance! --- Maximus 3.01 * U'NI-net: American Tune BBS * Ann Arbor, MI * (313)663-6232 SEEN-BY: 40822/15794 1/1 2 -- >> How's my typing? Email sysop@atbbs.com .. >> My views are sometimes not even my own, much less anyone else's. From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 22 08:18:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA08997 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 07:59:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id HAA08990 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 07:58:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:02:48 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:02:49 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Subject: He's BAAAAAAAAAAACK ... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk For those of you who are not on SPAM-L (see yesterday's "Bulk emailing quote request" thread), Kevin "Krazy Kevin" Lipsitz is apparently back in the spamming biz. This is of special interest here, since he tends to target news groups and mailing lists (for obvious reasons -- large distribution, and, often, automatic removal of key parts of the spam's header information). Krazy Kev hit several sites last night; here's the header I received (edited a little; all key info is still in there): >Received: from [206.98.210.252] (abest252.abest.com [206.98.210.252]) >by abest.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA24292; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 >20:44:05 -0500 (EST) >Message-Id: >Reply-To: please.note.we.can.only.receive.completed.forms@via.fax.or.smail.at.the.address.shown.below.thank.you >Approved: moderator >X-Priority: 1 (Highest) >Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:50:11 -0500 >To: tt@sean.abest.com (Tempting Tear-Outs) >From: tt@sean.abest.com (Tempting Tear-Outs) >Subject: ===>> FREE 1 yr USA Magazine Sub sent worldwide-270+ Choices! Up to $50.00 value! For those of you lucky enough to not be familiar with K^2, check out the STOP SPAM! site, **dedicated** to stopping this idiot: (This site was last updated 18 May 96, which is about the time that K^2 dropped off the 'Net.) Also see the Blacklist of Internet Advertisers: For now, it appears that K^2 has been stopped (this info posted to SPAM-L by another member): > % finger tt@abest.com > [abest.com] > Login: tt Name: account closed for spamming of 2000 mailing lists But with Kev, this is only temporary. He'll be back. BTW, if you want to help stop spam, visit the site in my .sig ... - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Boycott Internet Spam! From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 22 09:09:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA13190 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:03:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from llama.swcp.com (llama.swcp.com [198.59.115.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA13163 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:02:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by llama.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA10743 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:02:31 -0700 Message-Id: <199611221702.KAA10743@llama.swcp.com> Subject: He's BAAAAAAAAAAACK ... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:02:30 -0700 (MST) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > For those of you who are not on SPAM-L (see yesterday's "Bulk emailing > quote request" thread), Kevin "Krazy Kevin" Lipsitz is apparently back > in the spamming biz. This is of special interest here, since he tends > to target news groups and mailing lists (for obvious reasons -- large > distribution, and, often, automatic removal of key parts of the spam's > header information). He *tried* to hit most of my mailing lists over the past 24 hours or so -- fortunately, they're all configured to prevent his stuff from getting through. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 22 10:40:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA22622 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [198.7.0.32]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA22480 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:35:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [166.84.194.182] (nsbooks.dialup.access.net [166.84.194.182]) by mail1.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7.1/PanixM1.0+) with ESMTP id NAA03200 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:34:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199611221702.KAA10743@llama.swcp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:59:26 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Kent S. Larsen II" Subject: Re: He's BAAAAAAAAAAACK ... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk He tried to hit my lists last night also, but from a different site. My lists are either moderated (and the password is not 'moderator' or require posts from list memebers) I do have one open list, but his attempt bounced there too, apparently putting the Approved: header made majordomo check - and since the password wasn't correct, the messge bounced. I don't know if this is an accident or not, but I'm glad his post didn't go thru. =46or those interested in the alternate site he's using, here are the header= s: >From klarsen@panix.com Thu Nov 21 23:18:04 1996 Received: from akula.com (root@vader.akula.com [208.130.10.6]) by mail1.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7.1/PanixM1.0+) with ESMTP id XAA09208; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:18:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.98.210.252] (dialup-15.pr1.akula.com [208.130.10.105]) by akula.com (8.8.3/8.7.3/akula) with SMTP id WAA30066; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:51:18 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" Reply-To: please.note.we.can.only.receive.completed.forms@via.fax.or.smail.at.the.addr= ess. shown.below.thank.you Approved: moderator X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:55:46 -0500 To: tt@sean.abest.com (Tempting Tear-Outs) =46rom: tt@sean.abest.com (Tempting Tear-Outs) Subject: =3D=3D=3D>> FREE 1 yr USA Magazine Sub sent worldwide-270+ Choices!= Up to $50.00 value! Kent S. "Kip" Larsen II; KLarsen@panix.com or KLarsen@NorthSouth.com (work). From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 22 11:39:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA27699 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:36:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from host.ld.centuryinter.net (mail.concealite.com [206.65.161.250]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA27686 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from dd18-009.compuserve.com by host.ld.centuryinter.net; (5.65/1.1.8.2/16Aug95-0520PM) id AA08471; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:36:28 -0500 Message-Id: <9611221936.AA08471@host.ld.centuryinter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Stephen Hueners" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:36:19 +5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: New List: What will go wrong? Reply-To: JustSteve@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm new to list managment and working with an over-worked Unix expert hoping to save him some research into the ins-and-outs of list management. We've running off Linux 1.2 and have installed Majordomo 1.93...short of over-riding need, will wait for 2.0 before upgrading. (any word when that might be?) We've been through the READMEs and FAQ and have the various features working on a test list. We understand enough to change default passwords; close posting to non-subscribers. Besides the descriptive switches in teh .config file we've over-ridden these defaults....normally figuring we were making the list more secure from unwanted intrusions. private_who = yes restrict_post = lgtech I don't think there's a security issue with: mungedomain = yes ...and it would seem to be more user friendly. Am I missing anything? My general question is what more to we need to worry about? What is going to go wrong and how can we minimize our gaffs? I surely appreciate the assistance. tia --steve... ___________________________________________________ Stephen Hueners Holland, Wisconsin (608) 526-9784 http://JustSteve.com From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 22 11:54:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA27545 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:34:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from gatekeeper.ray.com (gatekeeper.ray.com [138.125.162.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA27524 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:34:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (mailer@localhost) by gatekeeper.ray.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA07859; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:22:34 -0500 Received: from rayssd.ssd.ray.com by gatekeeper.ray.com; Fri Nov 22 14:21:00 1996 Received: from fluke.ssd.ray.com (fluke.ssd.ray.com [138.125.192.34]) by rayssd.ssd.ray.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA01418; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:21:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dhb@localhost) by fluke.ssd.ray.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA17994; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:45:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:45:42 -0500 (EST) From: "David H. Brierley" To: Paul Hoffman cc: "Miles O'Neal" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >Is this a modified sendmail, or is this something > >configurable? I don't recall ever seeing a way to > >do this... > > Doesn't look like sendmail unless they tweaked the default strings: > > # host -t mx hotmail.com. > hotmail.com mail is handled (pri=5) by mail.hotmail.com > # telnet mail.hotmail.com 25 > Trying 206.86.127.195... > Connected to mail.hotmail.com. > Escape character is '^]'. > 220 constitution.hotmail.com Server SMTP ready at Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:40:05 Just because the smtp port gives an unfamiliar response, does not mean that sendmail is involved. If you open an smtp connection to my gateway you will get a non-descript greeting similar to the one above. This is because the gateway runs custom software that understands a limited subset of the smtp commands and just stores the mail in a file. That way outside users cannot exploit a sendmail hole that requires you to talk to sendmail because you are not talking directly to sendmail. However, after the mail message has been run through our "bio hazard filter" it is passed to the sendmail program to do the actual delivery inside the company. As for the original question, it is relatively easy to add rules to sendmail.cf to have it spit out whatever message you want. I have done this several times for things that are not normal errors detected by sendmail and that I want to send back specific error messages for. -- David H. Brierley Raytheon Electronic Systems - Portsmouth RI Facility Work: dhb@ssd.ray.com Home: dave@galaxia.com From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 22 12:23:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA29867 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:12:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail4.netcom.com [163.179.3.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA29860 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:12:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id LAA12174; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:59:47 -0800 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA01291; Fri, 22 Nov 96 11:59:27 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19961122200024.0071fc78@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:00:24 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Alan Deikman Subject: Re: [Humour] Best bounce I've seen in a while.. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is it just me or are these bounce daemons starting to sound more like one of my ex-girlfriends? > >Hi. This is the qmail-send program at quay.pipex.net. >I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. >This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. > -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 22 12:54:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA01757 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:43:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA01734 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:43:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from (alancz@hou-tx1-21.ix.netcom.com [204.30.68.53]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA13136 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:43:02 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:43:02 -0800 Message-Id: <199611222043.MAA13136@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> From: alancz@ix.netcom.com (Alan Czarnek) Subject: Terms of Service?? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk To List-Owners: Do any of you have 'terms of service' that a new subscriber has to agree to before they are allowed on the list? If it is a good idea, are there any samples available?? Alan Cz From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 22 13:38:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA05381 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:33:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom.netcom.com (netcom.netcom.com [192.100.81.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA05373 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:33:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jcook@localhost) by netcom.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id NAA08697; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:23:50 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:23:49 -0800 (PST) From: James Cook Subject: Re: Terms of Service?? To: Alan Czarnek cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199611222043.MAA13136@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Alan Czarnek wrote: > To List-Owners: > > Do any of you have 'terms of service' that a new subscriber > has to agree to before they are allowed on the list? > > If it is a good idea, are there any samples available?? > > Alan Cz > We use agreements in selected lists where confidentiality may be important. Indemnity and holdharmless are also concepts of concern. It is reasonable to assume that some not immaterial percentage of people may be overly litigious or unfair. Given the usually free nature of these services, indemnity and so on may be the least thing of value that could be given up front. James Cook -- ______________________________________________________________________________ James Cook * Information Professionals List jcook@ipn.net * IPN - Information Professionals Network jcook@netcom.com * World Wide Research & Liaison For http://www.ipn.net Investigative & Information Professionals ============================================================================== From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 22 14:24:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA08333 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:15:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA08270 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:15:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-961106) id NAA05869; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:56:39 -0800 Received: from relay3.uu.net(192.48.96.8) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma005854; Fri Nov 22 13:56:19 1996 Received: from llama.swcp.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: [198.59.115.19]) id QQbqzf02022; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:56:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by llama.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA12342 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:54:03 -0700 Message-Id: <199611222154.OAA12342@llama.swcp.com> Subject: Terms of Service?? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (lm) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:54:02 -0700 (MST) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Do any of you have 'terms of service' that a new subscriber > has to agree to before they are allowed on the list? Well, there's no formal agreement involved, but I do have a list of rules that I expect my subscribers to follow. It's part of the list info files for the list I run, so every new subscriber gets a copy. Because my lists tend to show up high on some search engines I get a lot of newbie types, so there's a lot of general "how to behave on a mailing list" material in it: ::: cut ::: [skipping list description/how-to-join stuff] USING THE LIST -------------- All postings to the list should go to [list]@[site] whether you're on the regular or digest version of the list. Message sent to this address will immediately be forwarded to all members of the list, and will be queued for the next digest. (Please note that Majordomo will check to make sure that you are a list subscriber before passing your message to the list -- you should send messages from the account you used to subscribe to the list, otherwise your mail will be delayed until the list admin can forward it.) New members are encouraged to introduce themselves. When you join, please send a message to the list describing (in brief) who you are and your interest in the list's topic. Please remember that ALL requests to join or leave the list should be mailed to majordomo@[site], not the list itself. If your requests don't seem to be working for some reason, please email [list]-owner@[site] with a description of the problem. The messages you send to the list will be going to hundreds of other people. For their convenience you should try to follow the usual rules of list courtesy: * Avoid long signatures (four lines is a good size). * Trim down quotations from postings you are responding to. * Think twice before posting flames or extremely long messages. * Try to stay on-topic whenever possible. The list manager has final say on whether a topic is welcome on the list; please do your best to follow his guidance. * Do not repost messages from this list to other forums without first getting permission from the person who wrote that message. * If you are using Microsoft Mail or other similar products, make sure your software is configured not to append ms-tnef attachments, WINMAIL.DAT files, or other similar content to your messages to the list. The list is not meant to be used as an advertising forum, though short notices of the form "I have for sale; please email me for a full list" are acceptable as long as the items for sale are directly relevant to the topic of the mailing list. The following kinds of messages are *never* welcome on the list, and posting them might result in your being removed, so be careful! * Advertisements for things not directly related to the list's topic * Chain letters * Virus warnings and other "public service announcements" * Images and sound files * Hoaxes and forged email -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 22 15:09:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA12501 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:58:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.ecentral.com ([204.227.4.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA12461 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.227.4.25 (ppp5.ecentral.com [204.227.4.25]) by www.ecentral.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA11269 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:56:53 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <329630A2.3266@ecentral.com> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:00:50 -0700 From: Cindy Stanley Reply-To: connect@ecentral.com Organization: Unschooling List X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Terms of Service?? References: <199611222154.OAA12342@llama.swcp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Do any of you have 'terms of service' that a new subscriber > > has to agree to before they are allowed on the list? Well, I don't make anyone *sign* anything before they join the list , but I do have some rules about behavior and posting guidelines that are included in the Welcome Message. If a subscriber doesn't comply with one of the rules, I'll usually send them a reminder via private email. This method works 99 out of 100 times. :-) Just FYI, my list is called the "Unschooling List" (or UL). It's for homeschoolers. ********************************* IMPORTANT POSTING REMINDERS =========================== * PLEASE REMEMBER to review/change the Subject Line of your message so that it reflects the topic of your message. * WHEN QUOTING from a previous post, remember to KISS (Keep it Short 'n Sweet). * SIGN YOUR NAME to your messages, so that we know what you call you (other than "Hey You" ). =========================== * ALL TOPICS are open for discussion, except for anything that is of an illegal nature. Should a Conversation Thread unravel (e.g.: become a personal conversation or turn into an overheated argument/flame war) Cindy, the UL owner, may step in and tell the participants to take their conversation to private email. Please remember that your unschooled children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews are always welcome to post their thoughts, comments, questions, and creative writings to the UL. * IF YOU HAVE A CONCERN, A COMMENT, OR A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION regarding something posted to the UL, please feel free to share your opinion with the list in general. (Keep in mind that on a list as diverse as this, it's unlikely that *all* of the Conversation Threads will be interesting to you. Some may be downright boring or even irritating.) If you find that making a public statement is uncomfortable for you, your next best bet would be to ignore the conversation entirely. Your DELETE key comes in mighty handy during these times. * SIG FILES are welcome, but should be no longer than 10 lines, including spaces. This includes any and all advertisments for your web site, support group, homeschool product/service, etc. * ONLY SUBSCRIBERS may post messages to the UL, so that we may preserve the intimacy and informal spontaneity of our conversations here. Please note that this also means you must *post* your messages from the same email address that you *subscribed* from, unless you'd like BOTH of your addresses to be subscribed. * ALL MESSAGES POSTED TO THE UL are the property of the author(s). You may not reproduce, forward or otherwise distribute any UL messages to anyone other than UL subscribers, without the permission of the author(s). For more on the legalities and common courtesies of forwarding other people's email, refer to these web sites: Copyrights in Cyberspace - by Steve Elias http://www.nolo.com/nn197.html (and/or) 10 Big Myths About Copyright Explained - by Brad Templeton http://www.clari.net/brad/copymyths.html * BEING CIVIL TO ONE ANOTHER is of utmost importance on the UL. Arguments and disagreements are one thing, but name-calling, religious slurs, bodily threats and the like will not be tolerated. This is the fastest way known to man to get tossed off of this list. ******************** Hope this helps, Cindy UL Mom connect@ecentral.com "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path, and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 22 15:24:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA13907 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:15:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from llama.swcp.com (llama.swcp.com [198.59.115.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA13894 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:15:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by llama.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id QAA12726 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:15:14 -0700 Message-Id: <199611222315.QAA12726@llama.swcp.com> Subject: New List: What will go wrong? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:15:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You should probably just majordomo-users@greatcircle.com if you want answers to these kinds of questions, but since you asked here... > We've running off Linux 1.2 and have installed Majordomo 1.93...short > of over-riding need, will wait for 2.0 before upgrading. (any word > when that might be?) As far as I know there is no projected release date for majordomo 2.0 -- or even a feature list, for that matter. 1.94.1 will probably be out reasonably soon. Your message indicated a lot of concern about list security and ease-of-use. I strongly recommend that you upgrade to 1.94.1 (when available) if this is the case -- the subscription confirmation option alone will make it worth your while. It also allows much greater control of how people can access commands like who, which, et al. If you must stick with 1.93, it sounds like you're on the right track. Setting private_who and restrict_post are both good; consider also setting private_which ("which ." gives as much info as "who" does) and noadvertise (which requires a patch to work properly under 1.93 -- ask on majordomo-users). Closing your lists won't hurt either. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 22 15:39:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA14673 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:25:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail3.netcom.com [163.179.3.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA14656 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:25:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id PAA07406; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:25:04 -0800 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA04007; Fri, 22 Nov 96 15:24:59 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19961122232554.008daa14@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:25:54 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Alan Deikman Subject: Terms of Service?? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: alancz@ix.netcom.com (Alan Czarnek) >Do any of you have 'terms of service' that a new subscriber >has to agree to before they are allowed on the list? My list goes as follows: " ... in all events what I say goes. Oink." There is really nothing else of importance you can say there, unless you get them to recite a pledge of allegiance or something. Regards, -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 22 15:54:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA16854 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom.netcom.com (netcom.netcom.com [192.100.81.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA16839 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:52:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jcook@localhost) by netcom.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id PAA12929; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:51:51 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:51:50 -0800 (PST) From: James Cook Subject: Re: Terms of Service?? To: Alan Deikman cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19961122232554.008daa14@znyx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Alan Deikman wrote: > > >From: alancz@ix.netcom.com (Alan Czarnek) > > >Do any of you have 'terms of service' that a new subscriber > >has to agree to before they are allowed on the list? > > My list goes as follows: > > " ... in all events what I say goes. Oink." > > There is really nothing else of importance you can say there, > unless you get them to recite a pledge of allegiance or something. > Generally, there is a difference between a list manager stating a policy, upon which he's prepared to act, and communicating a terms of service agreement which others must affirmatively read and accept... like any agreement / contract. I suspect that the main value in the first case is laying out the conditions on which service to the subscriber may be terminated or suspended. In the second case, various legal protections and understandings are spelled out which may go well beyond the simple remedy of expelling someone. For example, the mere act of expelling someone *might* be viewed as a libelous or slanderous act... they may perceive something to sue over on this, or on a contract basis....such as "they have a right to remain" they've been damaged in their financial life...etc. A contract of indemnity, or limitations of liability would at least offer list managers a legal leg to stand on if sued sometime in such contexts. The defense to suits would arise from what is in the "contract" which new subscribers accept and agree to upon admission. It is surely more formal. The alternative is to accept whatever legal risks may come with each person who "walks through the door" over future years. James Cook -- ______________________________________________________________________________ James Cook * Information Professionals List jcook@ipn.net * IPN - Information Professionals Network jcook@netcom.com * World Wide Research & Liaison For http://www.ipn.net Investigative & Information Professionals ============================================================================== From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 22 17:24:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA19419 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:13:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from zax.leftbank.com (zax.leftbank.com [139.167.32.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA19412 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:13:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nmehl@localhost) by zax.leftbank.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/LeftBank-1.1/http://www.leftbank.com/) id UAA13311; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 20:15:05 -0500 (EST) From: "Nathan J. Mehl" Message-Id: <199611230115.UAA13311@zax.leftbank.com> Subject: Re: Terms of Service?? To: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 20:15:04 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19961122232554.008daa14@znyx.com> from "Alan Deikman" at Nov 22, 96 03:25:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of Alan Deikman: > >Do any of you have 'terms of service' that a new subscriber > >has to agree to before they are allowed on the list? > My list goes as follows: > " ... in all events what I say goes. Oink." > There is really nothing else of importance you can say there, What he said. The standard boilerplate on any of the lists I run goes: # Although this list is unmoderated, the list owner must gently insist # that blank.org is not a democracy, and people who repeatedly # engage in poor behavior will be summarily removed. If you find # this policy unacceptable, we recommend downloading the latest # revision of majordomo from ftp.greatcircle.com and starting your # own list. (We'll even announce it here.) # # Addresses that bounce repeatedly will be removed without notice. Unless you have some philosophical point to make by acting otherwise (Dave Hayes, you around?), there's not much point in taking any other policy. The life of Dimitri Vulis stands as mute (okay, loud and funny) testimony to this. (IMHO, YMMV and several other acronyms.) -n -- Don't blame me -- I voted for the Unabomber! Nathan J. Mehl -- The Left Bank Operation (work) nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com (play) nmehl@blank.org -- http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nmehl/ From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 22 17:39:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA19696 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:27:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail3.netcom.com [163.179.3.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA19688 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:27:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id RAA20580; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:26:47 -0800 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA04954; Fri, 22 Nov 96 17:26:44 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19961123012740.006f0dd8@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:27:40 -0800 To: James Cook From: Alan Deikman Subject: Re: Terms of Service?? Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:51 PM 11/22/96 -0800, James wrote: >In the second case, various legal protections and >understandings are spelled out which may go well beyond the simple remedy >of expelling someone. The safest legal bet is not to set up a list in the first place and let someone else do it. However, if you retain the peculiar gene that we on this list all seem to share that makes you do this, consider the following. Recall the recent case where (I think it was) Compuserve was held liable for the content of the downloadable files it carried? The reasoning was that the service provider exercised editorial control by static a policy and, *in some cases*, enforced it. The same argument can be applied to mailing lists, particularly if you have an archive. Secondly, no indemnity agreement or disclaimer of liability is worth the paper it's printed on (which in this case is no paper at all since it is sent by e-mail) UNLESS you get a hardcopy, written agreement executed by both parties. And e-mail acknowledgement simply does not cut it. Does anybody know of any cases where an e-mail contract carried? So to me the three next safest options are either to 1) get written hold-harmless/indemnity agreements from each list member before you let them on, 2) refuse to put forth a policy and do nothing proactive with regard to maintaining the list, or 3) state up front that the maintenance and policy the list is 100% arbitrary, take it or leave it. I sum it up such that I can be a complete pig ("oink") if I want to and that's the condition of you being here. To get into statements of "if you do this I will do that in my authority as list-owner" simply opens the door to legalisms and legal action and does nothing whatsoever to protect you. By far the opposite. Regards, -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 22 18:08:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA20671 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:06:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom.netcom.com (netcom.netcom.com [192.100.81.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA20657 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jcook@localhost) by netcom.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id SAA11048; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:05:09 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:05:08 -0800 (PST) From: James Cook Subject: Re: Terms of Service?? To: Alan Deikman cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19961123012740.006f0dd8@znyx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Alan Deikman wrote: > Recall the recent case where (I think it was) Compuserve was held > liable for the content of the downloadable files it carried? The > reasoning was that the service provider exercised editorial control > by static a policy and, *in some cases*, enforced it. The same > argument can be applied to mailing lists, particularly if you have > an archive. Yes. Being proactive, etc. increases liability. > > Secondly, no indemnity agreement or disclaimer of liability is worth > the paper it's printed on (which in this case is no paper at all > since it is sent by e-mail) UNLESS you get a hardcopy, written > agreement executed by both parties. And e-mail acknowledgement > simply does not cut it. Does anybody know of any cases where an > e-mail contract carried? > I've obtained hardcopy in those instances where it seems important...for listservs. An email or electronic acknowledgement seems sort of between an oral and a written agreement to me, in terms of its quality and practicality of enforcement. Oral agreements, and electronically communicated ones are valid, its just that it is easy for parties to later disagree or disaffirm that they even agreed to any terms. Perhaps this is why you say they aren't going to cut it. They are technically valid but could be difficult to use as definitive proof, etc. You ask... does anyone know where an Email contract has carried. I have to wonder what context you're asking from? Do you mean that you know of a ruling that electronic agreements are not valid per se, or that the parties litigated a bonafide electronic agreement but one gained the edge over the other by denying their consent or something? That is an evidence or proof issue, not a matter of validity in my view. And the relevance of this to me is that the mere fact that SOME form of agreement exists which is valid (though something to squiggle with proof wise), may deter frivolous lawsuits against moderators in some cases...and some is better than none. > So to me the three next safest options are either to 1) get written > hold-harmless/indemnity agreements from each list member before you > let them on, 2) refuse to put forth a policy and do nothing proactive > with regard to maintaining the list, or 3) state up front that the > maintenance and policy the list is 100% arbitrary, take it or leave > it. I sum it up such that I can be a complete pig ("oink") if I want > to and that's the condition of you being here. Yes. And I suspect that anyone who felt bad enough about something could more easily maintain an action in court (small claims or otherwise, with or without an attorney) in the absence of any agreement which includes an indemnity, a provision limiting time for filing of actions, a provsion limiting where suits may be filed, and other tactical matters. Saying up front that you can be a pig only informs them of your standards and rules. it explains the condition on which you may suspend them. It doesn't affect anyone's legal rights much. > > To get into statements of "if you do this I will do that in my > authority as list-owner" simply opens the door to legalisms and legal > action and does nothing whatsoever to protect you. By far the > opposite. > I certainly agree that people can file lawsuits when they're upset whether or not they've aggreed to or signed something, and whether or not there is "merit" to their cause. To say that agreements would *never* do *anything* whatsoever to protect you seems much to categorical and overbroad to me. Let's say that someone in New York sues you without an attorney in some small court there, and feels that the filing fee of $50.00 is worth it to try and get you or someone else on the list involved in his lawsuit against you as "retribution". Let's say you live in Florida. One of several ways you can build some insulation into your situation is to have an agreement as to where he can file to begin with. If he must file in Florida by terms of your agreement, the plaintiff who just wants to push your buttons with a cheap suit locally filed will likely find the prospects much more time consuming and expensive if he has to go to Florida or hire a Florida attorney. In this latter case, they really need to be serious and decently financed. And if he does file in New York, you would at least have a lawful basis to have that filing thrown out of court since it was not filed in Florida through a motion based on your agreement. In some cases, an agreement may also alter which state's law (or other jurisdiction) will govern your situation. Establishing basic hurdles by agreement which tend to filter out the most improper filings can be a meaningful help in my view. And there are others too. The plaintiff may argue that he never agreed to the thing and so on. He'll have to prove that in the course of the suit, and that proof will be weighed against other evidence you might submit showing that you uniformly have everyone accept these before admission, that it was sent, that he participated in the forum, and so on. Both sides will need to come up with evidence. That is more than nothing when it comes to protecting yourself. Absent any agreement whatsoever, you have very little to stand on in terms of defense. Not perfect or free of difficulty...but not "nothing" either... Now, many folks on the Net hate the idea of having to "dirty their hands" with "legalisms" and so on.... it is so nice to deal with nice people in a nice way and not deal with legalisms. After all...we *never* get hassled if we don't hassle anyone , right? I think not. And is there any chance that someone could seriously go after us? Well, remember when two attorneys basicly pushed their way into Net consciousness with all kinds of Net-wide, aggressive posts all over? They made their name by brushing everying's hair in the wrong direction.... big time. No amount of sweet talk calmed them down...whatsoever. I can't say what is best for anyone. I do think there are some tools available which could help some of us some of the time. James Cook -- ______________________________________________________________________________ James Cook * Information Professionals List jcook@ipn.net * IPN - Information Professionals Network jcook@netcom.com * World Wide Research & Liaison For http://www.ipn.net Investigative & Information Professionals ============================================================================== From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 23 19:09:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA11275 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 19:04:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA11266; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 19:03:58 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9611221936.AA08471@host.ld.centuryinter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 19:04:28 -0800 To: JustSteve@centuryinter.net, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brent Chapman Subject: Re: New List: What will go wrong? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:36 PM +0005 11/22/96, Stephen Hueners wrote: >I'm new to list managment and working with an over-worked Unix expert >hoping to save him some research into the ins-and-outs of list >management. > >We've running off Linux 1.2 and have installed Majordomo 1.93...short >of over-riding need, will wait for 2.0 before upgrading. (any word >when that might be?) Uh... Majordomo 2.0 is not much but talk at this point... It will be at least months, probably years, and maybe never before it comes out... Strongly suggest you install Majordomo 1.94 instead. It's much more stable, much better documented, and much less buggy than 1.93. There is also a Majordomo 1.94.1 patch release in the works right now, to address the few nagging bugs that slipped through the cracks in 1.94; it should be out within a few weeks. Even so, 1.94 is more stable already than 1.93 ever was, and I strongly recommend it for new installations. -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 23 23:40:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA20847 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 23:35:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from chaos.taylored.com (chaos.taylored.com [206.53.224.58]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA20839 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 23:35:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8440 invoked by uid 20); 24 Nov 1996 07:35:15 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 02:35:14 -0500 (EST) From: Chael Hall To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Terms of Service?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A list member submitted a set of posting guidelines to me several months ago. I refined it and adopted it for one list then one of my list owners adapted it for her list. I've not changed it for general use on all of my lists. Since it's a little long and not of interest to everybody here, I'll just direct you all to the way to retrieve it: To: majordomo@chaos.taylored.com GET GENERAL GUIDELINES When I finish testing Majordomo 1.94 and switch the lists over, the general guidelines and the list-specific additions to the guidelines will be automatically sent to each new subscriber when they join. I should add something about enforcement being totally arbitrary--because it is. ;) Chael -- Chael Hall, nowhere@chaos.taylored.com http://www.chaos.taylored.com/home/nowhere/ From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 24 12:39:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA15950 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 12:31:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA15943 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 12:31:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smoe.org (smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA24572 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:30:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4.1-hack1) id AA26367; Sun, 24 Nov 96 15:31:21 EST Date: Sun, 24 Nov 96 15:31:21 EST From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9611242031.AA26367@smoe.org> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Problems with hotmail.com? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just had a bunch of mail dumped back to me from hotmail.com with this error: Deferred: Connection reset by mail.hotmail.com. Message could not be delivered for 5 days Message will be deleted from queue This has been going on for the past few weeks, and attempts to contact the folks at hotmail.com haven't worked... Has anyone else been having problems with them? Jeff From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 24 13:57:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA21633 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:54:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id NAA19874 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:26:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (grolsch.cs.ubc.ca [142.103.6.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA08309 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:01:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs.ubc.ca (uucp@news.cs.ubc.ca [142.103.6.2]) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA27487 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:01:32 -0800 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cs.ubc.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) id IAA15365 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:01:06 -0800 >Received: from mornir.gweep.bc.ca by edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca (Sendmail 8.7.5) with SMTP id GAA31480; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 06:51:04 -0800 Received: from cs.ubc.ca by nnrp.cs.ubc.ca; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:01 PST Received: from mornir.gweep.bc.ca by edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca (Sendmail 8.7.5) with SMTP id GAA31480; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 06:51:04 -0800 Received: (qmail 19872 invoked by uid 1180); 24 Nov 1996 14:50:54 -0000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Terms of Service?? X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.0 #2 Fri Oct 11 18:52:27 PDT 1996 X-Geek: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/doc/geek.html X-Homepage: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds X-PGP-Ox6E86B769: This key is obsolete, please discard it. X-PGP-Ox979D0B09: A9 3E 1E CB 86 09 B1 E9 3C 1A 0E F6 49 F9 5D 99 Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.92) boundary="pgp-sign-Multipart_Sun_Nov_24_06:50:53_1996-1"; micalg=pgp-md5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: edmonds@cs.ubc.ca (Brian Edmonds) Date: 24 Nov 1996 06:50:53 -0800 In-Reply-To: alancz@ix.netcom.com's message of Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:43:02 -0800 Message-ID: <37zq0735te.fsf@mornir.gweep.bc.ca> Lines: 35 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.2.40/XEmacs 19.14 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pgp-sign-Multipart_Sun_Nov_24_06:50:53_1996-1"; micalg=pgp-md5 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --pgp-sign-Multipart_Sun_Nov_24_06:50:53_1996-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Alan Czarnek writes: > To List-Owners: Do any of you have 'terms of service' that a new > subscriber has to agree to before they are allowed on the list? As others have said, I have nothing so formal for my lists. I generally run under the "you say what you like, I unsub who I like" approach. I have only recently had to start enforcing this on a few of the chronic offenders, despite repeated warnings. I do point people to my List Etiquette FAQ in the intro message, and it's a good bet if they read it and comply that they'll never have any trouble with me. Feel free to use it on your own lists if you wish: Brian. --pgp-sign-Multipart_Sun_Nov_24_06:50:53_1996-1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.6.3i Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQCVAwUBMphgzZM3vmyXnQsJAQFCHQP+KMj0qg7cdDtMW4vvhGfAO79YCp3tTjlS cdVNFF/MK8HJKe3E6mlCjkcFPQ0Vm8Lk/HIQwtoQXX8Tx0vt/Rm+1juHFj4CElPA RMbMi2x1+/OvS5IJyTgkEiZ7I4aCic+Lx5otgBnP5NJK0lncyVDqpSiAthAsrzTS Or8dWQXS54Y= =N91u -----END PGP MESSAGE----- --pgp-sign-Multipart_Sun_Nov_24_06:50:53_1996-1-- From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 24 15:24:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA23938 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mp705c.mp.usbr.gov ([140.214.12.152]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA23931 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25810 invoked from network); 24 Nov 1996 23:09:07 -0000 Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (140.214.12.2) by mp705c.mp.usbr.gov with SMTP; 24 Nov 1996 23:09:07 -0000 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2A VAX) id 25; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:08:40 PST Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:08:21 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: jeffw@smoe.org CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009ABDA1.CBD2EB30.25@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: RE: Problems with hotmail.com? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"jeffw@smoe.org" 24-NOV-1996 12:48:38.64 > Subj: Problems with hotmail.com? > > I just had a bunch of mail dumped back to me from hotmail.com > with this error: > > Deferred: Connection reset by mail.hotmail.com. > Message could not be delivered for 5 days > Message will be deleted from queue > > This has been going on for the past few weeks, and > attempts to contact the folks at hotmail.com haven't > worked... > > Has anyone else been having problems with them? > > Jeff Jeff, FWIW, I've noticed some mail to them backed up this past week. But I just checked my queues, and everything seems to have gone out. -HWM From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 24 16:14:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA25503 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom.netcom.com (netcom.netcom.com [192.100.81.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA25495 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:01:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jcook@localhost) by netcom.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id QAA18461; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:00:45 -0800 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:00:45 -0800 (PST) From: James Cook cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Significant work is being done by Netscape and Microsoft to incorporate messaging/mail services, along with univeral user directories, in new servers. Does anyone know whether these should rival key features of current listmanagement software like Listserv, Listproc, Majordomo, etc? Thanks. James Cook From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 24 22:39:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA06747 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom5.netcom.com (netcom5.netcom.com [192.100.81.113]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA06730 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:37:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (grafolog@localhost) by netcom5.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id GAA21865; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:37:25 GMT Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:37:25 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon To: James Cook cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: x-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, James Cook wrote: > current listmanagement software like Listserv, Listproc, Majordomo, etc? Let's just point out that Listserv, Listproc, MajorDomo, etc are referred to as primitive mailing list managers, by promoters of bulk e-mail packages. xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide Now. From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 24 23:09:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA07685 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:02:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eskimo.com ([204.122.16.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id XAA07678 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:02:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA11298; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:01:51 -0800 (PST) From: Berg Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.6) id XAA26310; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:01:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:01:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611250701.XAA26310@eskimo.com> To: grafolog@netcom.com Subject: Re: your mail Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk They probably call them primitive because they only send email to people who are subscribers, not everybody on the net... From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 25 06:54:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA28169 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:41:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (grolsch.cs.ubc.ca [142.103.6.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id GAA28151 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:41:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs.ubc.ca (uucp@news.cs.ubc.ca [142.103.6.2]) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA15820 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:41:20 -0800 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cs.ubc.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) id GAA27974 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:41:13 -0800 >Received: from mornir.gweep.bc.ca by edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca (Sendmail 8.7.5) with SMTP id GAA16371; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:22:55 -0800 Received: from cs.ubc.ca by nnrp.cs.ubc.ca; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:41 PST Received: from mornir.gweep.bc.ca by edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca (Sendmail 8.7.5) with SMTP id GAA16371; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:22:55 -0800 Received: (qmail 21041 invoked by uid 1180); 25 Nov 1996 14:22:45 -0000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Problems with hotmail.com? X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.0 #2 Fri Oct 11 18:52:27 PDT 1996 X-Geek: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/doc/geek.html X-Homepage: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds X-PGP-Ox6E86B769: This key is obsolete, please discard it. X-PGP-Ox979D0B09: A9 3E 1E CB 86 09 B1 E9 3C 1A 0E F6 49 F9 5D 99 Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.92) boundary="pgp-sign-Multipart_Mon_Nov_25_06:22:44_1996-1"; micalg=pgp-md5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: edmonds@cs.ubc.ca (Brian Edmonds) Date: 25 Nov 1996 06:22:44 -0800 In-Reply-To: jeffw@smoe.org's message of Sun, 24 Nov 96 15:31:21 EST Message-ID: <37wwvai79m.fsf@mornir.gweep.bc.ca> Lines: 38 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.2.40/XEmacs 19.14 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pgp-sign-Multipart_Mon_Nov_25_06:22:44_1996-1"; micalg=pgp-md5 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --pgp-sign-Multipart_Mon_Nov_25_06:22:44_1996-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jeff Wasilko writes: > This has been going on for the past few weeks, and attempts to contact > the folks at hotmail.com haven't worked... Hotmail seems to have been experiencing ongoing mail problems for at least the past month. I wouldn't be surprised if it's due to heavy mail load following one of their users spamming. Every time they hit the five day wall on one of my lists I simply go into the sendmail queue and erase all jobs for hotmail, and either nuke the subscriber entirely or move it to the corresponding digest list. It appears that mail does go through sometimes, but I'm not about to impact the performance of my lists or mail server just for a bunch of freeloaders who won't find a more reliable provider. (Hotmail provides free email service in exchange for being able to advertise in your face.) Brian. --pgp-sign-Multipart_Mon_Nov_25_06:22:44_1996-1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.6.3i Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQCVAwUBMpmrtJM3vmyXnQsJAQGx1QQAuQx0+CpEyRua/WqDACkYjUZZXa94mJOC ACUlwutknJJYIvdERzoYGvkq9b8oWOZrknKEbiWAOzT9NOd+V/urG08lpBxX7PZs QYlaUxFaNNU6Avu4KUHu+VYfDy47QJ3SlxdzDYM0nBFnyaGbJ0s7gHHRZ4IpC5fu QnEIug2NcCM= =zXWp -----END PGP MESSAGE----- --pgp-sign-Multipart_Mon_Nov_25_06:22:44_1996-1-- From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 25 14:00:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA25492 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:39:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id NAA25435 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:39:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu ([128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA21751 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18150 invoked by uid 305); 24 Nov 1996 21:56:54 -0000 To: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Problems with hotmail.com? References: <9611242031.AA26367@smoe.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <18139.848872611.1@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:56:52 -0500 Message-ID: <18141.848872612@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> From: Paul Graham Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk not that it's directly related but mmlover@hotmail recently attempted to subscribe to all of our lists which suggests that it's a spam front. -------- In reply to: Has anyone else been having problems with them? --------------------- -- paul From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 25 14:06:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA26408 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:54:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id NAA25579 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotstar.net (hotstar.net [204.191.136.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id GAA28443 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:51:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from widgette (ts5-08.tor.iSTAR.ca [204.191.137.108]) by hotstar.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id JAA01673; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:52:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961125145230.006bf4dc@inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:52:30 -0500 To: edmonds@cs.ubc.ca (Brian Edmonds) From: David Lloyd-Jones Subject: Re: Terms of Service?? Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 06:50 AM 11/24/96 -0800, Brian Edmonds wrote: > >As others have said, I have nothing so formal for my lists. I generally >run under the "you say what you like, I unsub who I like" approach. I >have only recently had to start enforcing this on a few of the chronic >offenders, despite repeated warnings. When I first took over sci.econ.research on Usenet, I got a bit of flak at the beginning for the pepper and ginger I added to the discussion. The newsgroup exists as a moderated medium because sci.econ is simply a cat-fight where any fool with an idea or a complaint will post their economic revolution du jour. Thus the moderated alternative is somewhat dry. Thus it seemed to me that apart from restricting the irrelevant it could also benefit from a little toasting of the stoo-pid, or the merely careless. Naturally I was available to supply this on demand. I could also supply the demand. There was a flurry of "moderators are supposed to be neutral," which while admirable does not add up to moderators being mute and supine. Worried, I spent some days looking over the net for opinion, precedent, and even wisdom on the subject, and I found it. A part of it was this group, and I still belong. Equally important was the support I got from a number of the old time net gods and from people I respect in economics. Their opinion/wisdom was almost unanimous: "It's your group." Sometimes this was expressed in Anglo-Saxon terms, but the consensus was unequivocal: it's your group, newsgroup, letter, server, whatever. You have _no_ obligation beyond those of personal behaviour -- doing what you said you'd do, and so forth. If the users and lusers think otherwise, they're quite welcome to start up their own group, letter, serv, site, or whatever. I find this all rather cheering. It's nice that there is still a frontier. Well said, Brian Edmonds. Cheers, -dlj. From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 25 14:44:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA29211 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:36:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom.netcom.com (netcom.netcom.com [192.100.81.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA29204 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:36:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jcook@localhost) by netcom.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id OAA11121; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:21:59 -0800 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:21:47 -0800 (PST) From: James Cook Subject: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Lsoft (www.lsoft.com) and Lyris (www.lyris.com) both appear to offer enhanced features over Majordomo and Listproc. Lyris has a nicely implemented web interface for administration of the lists, user subscription, etc. Has anyone compared these two? Anyone have comparative viewpoints to share? Anyone testing Lyris or a new version of Lsoft? Thanks. James Cook From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 25 15:25:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA01976 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:24:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from shoreside.com (shoreside.com [206.40.34.81]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA01962 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlick@localhost) by shoreside.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA06649; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:24:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:24:04 -0800 (PST) From: James Lick To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: RE: Problems with hotmail.com? In-Reply-To: <199611250900.BAA12386@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It seems that hotmail.com is having growing pains. I recently received the attached message from them in explanation of their problems. I'm still kicking off subscribers if the messages don't get through by the 5 day timeout though. -- James Lick -- jlick@drivel.com -- http://drivel.com/jlick/ -- From HoTMaiL From: HoTMaiL Staff Address Book To: HoTMaiL User Subject: Important News from HoTMaiL Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 Dear Hotmail user, I am writing you this letter to address some of your concerns about system slowness that has affected our service recently. I want to apologize for the inconvenience and inform you that we are taking steps to return your speed of service to the level that both you and I expect from Hotmail. In the past few weeks our service has undergone explosive growth, and we now have over 600,000 users. While this growth is welcome, it has caused temporary periods of slowness as we add more user capacity. To address this, we are in the process of upgrading our systems and increasing our bandwitdth. These two improvements will allow us to provide an excellent level of service not only to our current users, but to seamlessly handle even faster growth in the number of subscribers. We appreciate your using Hotmail and take pride in providing the best email service (free or otherwise) for your use. We hope that you will bear with us as we move to improve system performance. Yours truly, Sabeer Bhatia President, Hotmail Corporation --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 25 18:09:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA15033 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:05:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.proper.com (mail.proper.com [206.86.127.224]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA15005 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:05:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [165.227.249.100] (dharma.proper.com [165.227.249.100]) by mail.proper.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA11242; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:04:11 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: paulh@mail.proper.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:06:05 -0800 To: James Cook , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:21 PM -0800 11/25/96, James Cook wrote: >Lyris has a nicely implemented web interface for administration of the >lists, user subscription, etc. It's also only in beta. And only on one platform. And they've missed repeated "really soon now" announcements... --Paul Hoffman --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 25 18:24:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA15570 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:15:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu (nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA15542 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id VAA18721; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:14:40 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:14:40 -0500 From: "Leonard H. Tower Jr." Message-Id: <199611260214.VAA18721@nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: jcook@netcom.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: "jcook@netcom.com" Reply-To: tower@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu Organization: Project GNU, Free Software Foundation, 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA +1-617-542-5942 Home: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA 02143, USA +1-617-623-7739 URL: http://www.ai.mit.edu/~tower/home.html Subject: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:21:47 -0800 (PST) From: James Cook Precedence: bulk Lsoft (www.lsoft.com) and Lyris (www.lyris.com) both appear to offer enhanced features over Majordomo and Listproc. Lyris has a nicely implemented web interface for administration of the lists, user subscription, etc. What are the copyright distribution terms on each? thanx -len From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 25 18:30:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA15627 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:16:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom.netcom.com (netcom.netcom.com [192.100.81.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA15610 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:15:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jcook@localhost) by netcom.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id SAA08039; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:15:42 -0800 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:15:41 -0800 (PST) From: James Cook Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS To: Paul Hoffman cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Paul Hoffman wrote: > At 2:21 PM -0800 11/25/96, James Cook wrote: > >Lyris has a nicely implemented web interface for administration of the > >lists, user subscription, etc. > > It's also only in beta. And only on one platform. And they've missed > repeated "really soon now" announcements... > > --Paul Hoffman > --Internet Mail Consortium > > I was told that the NT version will be available during the next week by a company representive today. It is currently only available for NT. But my request for comment / comparison is as to their performance and features, not number of operating systems they run on. Thanks. James Cook From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 25 19:10:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA18122 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:58:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA18115 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 24470 invoked by uid 305); 26 Nov 1996 02:58:00 -0000 To: tower@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS References: <199611260214.VAA18721@nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <24457.848977077.1@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:57:57 -0500 Message-ID: <24459.848977077@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> From: Paul Graham Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk listserv (TM) is a commercial product. it's available only in binary form as far as i know and is licensed to your site and by the volume you expect to handle. they do have special low-cost versions for non-profits. i'm sure a major goal of lsoft is to make money selling lots of copies of listserv. -------- In reply to: What are the copyright distribution terms on each? --------------------- -- paul pjg@acsu.Buffalo.EDU |public keys at: pjg@ubvm | http://urth.acsu.Buffalo.EDU/~pjg/key.html if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 25 21:10:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA23645 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:06:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA23615 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:06:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26868 invoked by uid 305); 26 Nov 1996 05:06:12 -0000 To: James Cook cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <26856.848984769.1@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:06:09 -0500 Message-ID: <26858.848984769@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> From: Paul Graham Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk we use the latest version of listserv (1.8c-hpo ``beta''). there really is no comparison to majordomo (speaking as a former majordomo admin) or any other free software. i suspect there isn't much comparison to listproc. you can check the lsoft top 20 list for performance numbers. listserv has no clever web interface for management and it could probably use one (for consistency and error checking) but there are advantages to a mail interface. listserv is also a single-threaded monolithic program. the single executable does everything including web based archive management (catalist ). it's my opinion that lsoft has some preference for open-vms and its cousin nt. a number of listserv site comprise the so-called listserv backbone. these sites share information in real-time about lists, subscribers, spamming and co-operate in delivery. i have no experience with lyris but i find the claims on their web pages a bit hard to believe. disclaimer: i'm at the university at buffalo and we have a long relationship with lsoft. our primary listserv node is number two for deliveries on the backbone (about .5M/day) and i don't think we could do the work with anything other than listserv. however we don't completely hew to the party line since we use qmail (and until resently sendmail) as our smtp transport rather than lsoft's lsmtp. -------- In reply to: Lsoft (www.lsoft.com) and Lyris (www.lyris.com) both appear to offer enhanced features over Majordomo and Listproc. --------------------- -- paul pjg@acsu.Buffalo.EDU |public keys at: pjg@ubvm | http://urth.acsu.Buffalo.EDU/~pjg/key.html if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 25 23:28:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA29789 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:22:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom.netcom.com (netcom.netcom.com [192.100.81.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA29781 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jcook@localhost) by netcom.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id XAA27222; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:22:24 -0800 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:22:24 -0800 (PST) From: James Cook Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS To: Paul Graham cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <26858.848984769@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Paul Graham wrote: > we use the latest version of listserv (1.8c-hpo ``beta''). > there really is no comparison to majordomo (speaking as a former > majordomo admin) or any other free software. i suspect there isn't What would you list as the most notable differences from these free software packages, the most worthwhile? > i have no experience with lyris but i find the claims on their web pages > a bit hard to believe. Which of the Lyris claims seemed most problematic for you? Lyris does appear to offer a 30 day money mback guarantee. So that may offer a reasonable time within which to test critical features of interest... Thanks Paul. I certainly appreciate your time and experience. James Cook From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 25 23:45:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA00386 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id XAA00362 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:33:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611260733.XAA00362@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <14.DF07029D@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 8:32:49 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 7710; Tue, 26 Nov 96 08:26:15 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 8243; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:26:15 +0100 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:21:43 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS To: tower@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu, Paul Graham cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:57:57 -0500 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:57:57 -0500 Paul Graham said: >listserv (TM) is a commercial product. it's available only in binary >form as far as i know and is licensed to your site and by the volume you >expect to handle. they do have special low-cost versions for >non-profits. There is also a free version for non-commercial use. Check: http://www.lsoft.com/listserv-lite.html >i'm sure a major goal of lsoft is to make money selling lots of copies >of listserv. That's what software companies generally attempt to do. Eric From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 25 23:54:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA01533 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from library.ummed.edu (library.ummed.edu [146.189.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA01473 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:44:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16473 invoked from network); 26 Nov 1996 07:45:01 -0000 Received: from localhost (naleks@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 26 Nov 1996 07:45:01 -0000 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:45:01 -0500 (EST) From: Norm Aleks Reply-To: Norm Aleks To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > What would you list as the most notable differences from these free > software packages, the most worthwhile? Paul Graham has a unique perspective because he runs such a big site. However, for some other smaller questions, a FAQ I wrote a couple of years back (and haven't updated since then) may still be useful. It compares most of the available Unix MLM's, and is behind only one version on most. (It is at, basically, 1.8a for LISTSERV, 7.0 for ListProc, and 1.93 for Majordomo.) But more than a blow-by-blow feature comparison I hope it gives a few ideas (mine :-) ) for what to think about in terms of "what's better, and why" To get it, send mail to majordomo@GreatCircle.COM with any subject and this line in the body: get list-managers software-faq -- Norm ICH LIEBE RICH - I'm really crazy about having dough. From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 26 02:36:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA08800 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:01:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.2.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id CAA08714 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:00:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.240.3.209] by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.6.12/ for ncl.ac.uk) with SMTP; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:00:25 GMT X-Sender: nmf3@pow.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:00:30 +0000 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Morna.Findlay@newcastle.ac.uk (Morna Findlay) Subject: Recent comparisons of MLMs Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Further to the discussion of lyris vs lsoft, does anyone know where recent MLM FAQs may be found? I have uplifted Norm's FAQ as mentioned in his recent message. cheers M From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 26 08:26:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA27348 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA27308 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with SMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:17:43 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:17:43 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 00:06 11/26/96, Paul Graham said: >we use the latest version of listserv (1.8c-hpo ``beta''). >there really is no comparison to majordomo (speaking as a former >majordomo admin) or any other free software. i suspect there isn't >much comparison to listproc. I think that the primary comparison between ListServ (L-Soft) and ListProc (CREN) is "bang for the buck." ListServ has substantially more configuration options, but ListProc costs substantially less money. Thus, for those sites that need more performance than a MLM implemented in Perl, but either don't need the kind of configuration options offered by ListServ or simply (more commonly) can't justify the cost, ListProc is a very viable option. FWIW, there is very little that is *not* in the current release of ListProc (8.0) that I feel I need to manage my list. (And CREN *is* very responsive to customer requests.) (Um, I'm not suggesting that L-Soft ISN'T responsive; I'm sure they are, or they wouldn't still be around.) (Well, okay, Microsoft is still around, so that kills THAT argument.) (Oh, never mind.) FMI: I ought to throw in a disclaimer, as well: I have no association with CREN, save that my list is hosted on a ListProc, and that I happen to be a very happy customer. (Especially now that I'm at a COMPETENTLY MANAGED site. :-) - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Boycott Internet Spam! From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 26 09:28:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA29884 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.bellglobal.com (mail1.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA29851 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:10:30 -0800 (PST) From: rasmus@mail1.bellglobal.com Received: from inet-dev ([199.243.250.207]) by mail1.bellglobal.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA11138; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:09:18 -0400 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:10:55 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: rasmus@mail1.bellglobal.com Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS To: Vince Sabio cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I think that the primary comparison between ListServ (L-Soft) and > ListProc (CREN) is "bang for the buck." ListServ has substantially > more configuration options, but ListProc costs substantially less > money. Thus, for those sites that need more performance than a MLM > implemented in Perl, but either don't need the kind of configuration > options offered by ListServ or simply (more commonly) can't justify > the cost, ListProc is a very viable option. If you want Bang-for-the-Buck, use SmartList. Procmail-based, and thus completely written in C, and because it is procmail rule-based, it is infinitely customizable. I have run MajorDomo, and ListServ-based lists in the past, but I much prefer the completely free SmartList package and would never even consider switching back. -Rasmus From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 26 11:10:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA07566 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:58:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom.netcom.com (netcom.netcom.com [192.100.81.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA07559 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:58:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jcook@localhost) by netcom.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id KAA04604; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:58:28 -0800 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:58:28 -0800 (PST) From: James Cook Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS To: rasmus@mail1.bellglobal.com cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Nov 1996 rasmus@mail1.bellglobal.com wrote: > If you want Bang-for-the-Buck, use SmartList. Procmail-based, and thus > completely written in C, and because it is procmail rule-based, it is > infinitely customizable. I have run MajorDomo, and ListServ-based lists > in the past, but I much prefer the completely free SmartList package > and would never even consider switching back. > The Lyris package (http://www.lyris.com) mentions a few points which may make it more attractive to users. First, it purports to automatically archive AND index all messages, which are full text searchable by use of boolean operators via a web interface. My impression is that the archiving features of other packages are more difficult to use, at least for the average user with limited sophistication, and are perhaps more accessible due to the search engine built in. It also seems to me that perhaps the great influx of newbies to lists would stir up less extraneous admin traffic if the user-configuration options of the web interface (point and click) works as claimed. Are these features which other admins would value greatly? I currently use Majordomo, but am looking at Listserv and Lyris. Also curious about Smartlist. Thanks. James Cook From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 26 11:26:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA08377 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:09:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.bellglobal.com (mail1.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA08368 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:09:28 -0800 (PST) From: rasmus@mail1.bellglobal.com Received: from inet-dev ([199.243.250.207]) by mail1.bellglobal.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA13899; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:08:42 -0400 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:10:18 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: rasmus@mail1.bellglobal.com Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS To: James Cook cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > The Lyris package (http://www.lyris.com) mentions a few points which may > make it more attractive to users. First, it purports to automatically > archive AND index all messages, which are full text searchable by use of > boolean operators via a web interface. My impression is that the archiving > features of other packages are more difficult to use, at least for the > average user with limited sophistication, and are perhaps more accessible > due to the search engine built in. It also seems to me that perhaps the > great influx of newbies to lists would stir up less extraneous admin > traffic if the user-configuration options of the web interface (point and > click) works as claimed. SmartList automatically archives as well. And sticking something like WebGlimpse on top of it to do full-text searching is trivial. Somehow I doubt that the text search capabilities of Lyris comes close to matching the sophistication of a dedicated text search engine like Glimpse. -Rasmus From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 26 16:55:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA20480 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:48:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA20473 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:48:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01ICBAR95WPKAEKXHR@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:47 EDT Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:47 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: Bulk emailing quote request (fwd) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <01ICBAR95WPKAEKXHR@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM X-VMS-To: IN%"List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"jkroeger@squirrel.owl.de" "Johannes Kroeger" 21-NOV-1996 19:46:55.76 To: IN%"remailer-operators@c2.net" CC: Subj: RE: Bulk emailing quote request (fwd) > >Also, when posting these messages, you need to include the extended > >headers -- that is, all the "Received" lines in the header. Here are the "Received" lines of the message; my mail reader didn't include them when I forwarded it. Received: (qmail 4585 invoked by uid 10); 21 Nov 1996 14:09:59 -0000 Received: from jehova.owl.de by fiction.pb.owl.de with smtp id m0vQZov-000028C; Thu, 21 Nov 96 15:09 MET Received: from stan.astra.co.uk (stan.stargate.co.uk [195.224.26.5]) by jehova.owl.de (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA29243 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:00:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from Line02.astra.co.uk by stan.astra.co.uk (NTMail 3.02.07) with ESMTP id pa010909 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:59:56 +0000 -- Johannes Kroeger Send me mail with subject "send pgp-key" to get my PGP key From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 26 17:10:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA20499 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:49:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA20491 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:49:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01ICBASE2NM4AEKXHR@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:48 EDT Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:48 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: Bulk emailing quote request (fwd) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <01ICBASE2NM4AEKXHR@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM X-VMS-To: IN%"List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"stedder@interlog.com" "SHAWN TEDDER" 22-NOV-1996 00:08:40.20 To: IN%"EALLENSMITH@mbcl.rutgers.edu" "E. Allen Smith" CC: Subj: RE: Bulk emailing quote request (fwd) email me tedders@psi.ca will send url for UK for whois sorry do not have it on me now. At 05:34 PM 11/21/96 EDT, you wrote: >From: IN%"wavelet@colossus.arl.mil" 21-NOV-1996 16:59:20.58 > >>** Sometime around 14:53 11/21/96, E. Allen Smith said: > > Sorry if I wasn't clear; that was a forwarded message. >I've CC'd this reply to remailer-operators@c2.org, which is where >I got the original message from. > >>>I just found the following offer in my junk mailbox. >>>Does anyone know more about Ajax Communications and their >>>"respectable client" and what's the best reaction to this crap? > >>The "best reaction" is to head them off at the pass, and notify their >>ISP of their intent to spam. > >>>> From: Neil > >>The MX record for ajax.astra.co.uk resolves to sol.stargate.co.uk. But >>at this point, I hit the wall -- who knows how to get WHOIS info on UK >>sites? > >>Also, when posting these messages, you need to include the extended >>headers -- that is, all the "Received" lines in the header. > >>CCing SPAM-L on this ... > > What's the address on that? > Thanks, > -Allen > > From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 26 17:14:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA20593 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:50:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA20570 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:50:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01ICBATU914WAEKXHR@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:49 EDT Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:49 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: Bulk emailing quote request (fwd) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <01ICBATU914WAEKXHR@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM X-VMS-To: IN%"List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"stewarts@ix.netcom.com" 24-NOV-1996 21:31:32.43 To: IN%"jkroeger@squirrel.owl.de" "Johannes Kroeger" CC: IN%"neil@ajax.astra.co.uk" "Neil", IN%"remailer-operators@c2.net" Subj: RE: Bulk emailing quote request (fwd) If Ajax's customer wants to be anonymous, they either need to forge headers or get someone to send the mail for them. Ajax can do the latter themselves (e.g. From: massmail@ajax.com Subject: Great New Product/Service/Religion/Drug/Racket Contact us by phone for further information about Great Stuff! Call the Queen and ask her not to ban it!!) The only reasons Ajax would need to remove their name are 1) Ajax is really the customer 2) Ajax doesn't want to be legally forced to identify the name 3) Ajax knows it's SPAM and doesn't want people to be able to block it. 4) Ajax wants to direct the headers straight to the customer so Ajax doesn't get flamed to death in response. If it's case 1), fine, create a mailbox at ajax.com for the "customer". If it's case 2), they shouldn't be giving out phone or paper-mail contact addresses. If it's case 4), they can either set up their headers correctly, or create a cutout mailbox, print any incoming mail, and forward it by paper. At 04:02 PM 11/21/96 -0000, Johannes Kroeger wrote: >I just found the following offer in my junk mailbox. >Does anyone know more about Ajax Communications and their >"respectable client" and what's the best reaction to this crap? ..... >> Dear Sir/Madam, >> I work for a company called Ajax Communications and we have a respectable= >> client who needs to do a mass e-mail shot. The e-mail which needs to go = >> out would need to be anonymous. >> Our client would need the e-mail shot carried out in 2 phases: >> >> 1. 10,000 shots to go to UK addresses as soon as possible. >> 2. After a response from phase 1 is known, a further 990,000 shots to go = >> to UK addresses. .... >> Tel. +44 1443 223835 and ask to speak to myself or Doug Brown. ... >> Neil Ross >> Technical Manager. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk # (If this is posted to cypherpunks, I'm currently lurking from fcpunx, # so please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 26 17:54:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA22147 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:46:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from pcusa01.ecunet.org ([206.115.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA22140 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:46:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by pcusa01.ecunet.org id aa10321; 26 Nov 96 20:10 EST Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS To: Paul Graham Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:58:55 -0500 (EST) From: Merrill Cook Cc: tower@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <24459.848977077@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> from "Paul Graham" at Nov 25, 96 09:57:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9611261959.aa00387@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From Paul Graham: > > i'm sure a major goal of lsoft is to make money selling lots of copies > of listserv. > The pricing I've seen suggests that they want to make money selling a few copies. If they wanted to sell lots they wouldn't be charging so much. Of course, they actually have a business that is working, and people are paying, and maybe they actually have people whose primary job it is to support and develop the software... so maybe I shouldn't complain. -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org or MERRILL COOK on Ecunet/PresbyNet http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa.html -+- From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 26 20:26:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA28048 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:23:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from madhaus.utcs.utoronto.ca (madhaus.utcs.utoronto.ca [128.100.102.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id UAA28041 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:23:18 -0800 (PST) From: rasmus@vex.net Received: from krone.lerdorf.on.ca (krone.lerdorf.on.ca [207.164.141.2]) by madhaus.utcs.utoronto.ca (8.7.4/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA05328; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:22:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:22:52 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: rasmus@vex.net Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS To: tower@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199611270415.XAA25445@nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > What is are the copyright and distribution terms on SmartList? Exactly the same as for procmail which are: Procmail & formail mail processing package. Copyright (c) 1990-1995, S.R. van den Berg, The Netherlands. Some legal stuff: Use this software package at your own risk. The programmer cannot be held liable for any incurred damages, directly or indirectly due to the use or inability to use this software. You are encouraged to distribute this package freely. This package is however not to be sold (minor transfer costs excepted) or included in any commercially sold software package (if you want to do this anyway, contact me (address below), and we'll work something out). If you distribute it, please leave the package intact. You are allowed to take parts from this distribution and distribute these separately as long as you retain the copyright messages. If you redistribute any part of this package in a modified form, be sure to mark the parts you changed. If you have some important changes that might be useful to the rest of the world, contact me instead. -Rasmus From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 26 20:30:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA27914 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:15:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu (nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA27907 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:15:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id XAA25445; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:15:11 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:15:11 -0500 From: "Leonard H. Tower Jr." Message-Id: <199611270415.XAA25445@nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: rasmus@mail1.bellglobal.com CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: Reply-To: tower@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu Organization: Project GNU, Free Software Foundation, 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA +1-617-542-5942 Home: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA 02143, USA +1-617-623-7739 URL: http://www.ai.mit.edu/~tower/home.html Subject: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: rasmus@mail1.bellglobal.com Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:10:55 -0500 (EST) Precedence: bulk > I think that the primary comparison between ListServ (L-Soft) and > ListProc (CREN) is "bang for the buck." ListServ has substantially > more configuration options, but ListProc costs substantially less > money. Thus, for those sites that need more performance than a MLM > implemented in Perl, but either don't need the kind of configuration > options offered by ListServ or simply (more commonly) can't justify > the cost, ListProc is a very viable option. If you want Bang-for-the-Buck, use SmartList. Procmail-based, and thus completely written in C, and because it is procmail rule-based, it is infinitely customizable. I have run MajorDomo, and ListServ-based lists in the past, but I much prefer the completely free SmartList package and would never even consider switching back. -Rasmus What is are the copyright and distribution terms on SmartList? thanx -len From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 00:55:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA04505 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 00:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id AAA04490; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 00:40:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611270840.AAA04490@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <15.814C9BC1@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 9:40:36 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 4246; Wed, 27 Nov 96 09:33:57 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 1843; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:33:54 +0100 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:18:21 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS To: Paul Graham , list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM, Merrill Cook cc: tower@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:58:55 -0500 (EST) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:58:55 -0500 (EST) Merrill Cook said: >The pricing I've seen suggests that they want to make money selling a >few copies. If they wanted to sell lots they wouldn't be charging so >much. LISTSERV Lite goes for $500-2000 OTC (corporate), with a free edition for non commercial use. It isn't possible to sell "lots" of copies of a mailing list manager, at least not in the meaning normally associated with PC software. There are thousands of copies of the freebies in use, not millions, not hundreds of thousands, not even tens of thousands. That's with a retail price of $0.00. I think this will change, but it hasn't changed yet, and we have bills to pay now. Another thing is that supporting the high end of the market is extremely expensive (that's another reason for the Lite version). It's easy to write a simple list manager and write some hype that refers to existing products as "primitive", then make a spam or three to advertise it, and the sad thing is that you'll fool the low end of the market easily, because they just don't know better. But when you talk to sites that have lists with over 500,000 subscribers, plan to have millions of subscribers on the same machine and need delivery times in the 200,000 per hour, including bounce processing and, needless to say, without any failure or lost mail, suddenly everything starts getting a lot more difficult and lining buzzwords on a web page no longer cuts it. The market for this is in the hundreds, not even thousands, so the prices have to go up. Eric From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 02:54:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA09900 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:45:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.dircon.co.uk (mail2.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id CAA09886 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from diversity.org.uk (diversity.org.uk [194.112.46.199]) by mail2.dircon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA05459 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:42:36 GMT From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: Bulk emailing quote request (fwd) Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:11:10 GMT Message-ID: References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article , Vince Sabio wrote: > >The MX record for ajax.astra.co.uk resolves to sol.stargate.co.uk. But >at this point, I hit the wall -- who knows how to get WHOIS info on UK >sites? Astra/Stargate is an Internet provider; I'm just placing an order for a leased line with them, and the T&Cs specifically prohibit mass e-mail spams. Looks like ajax is a customer of theirs. Maybe I should drop this into my next conversation and they can gently remind 'em of the T&Cs, though it looks like they're trying to subvert that by using a third party anyway. Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 07:10:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA23518 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:04:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA23508 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:04:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18288 invoked by uid 305); 27 Nov 1996 15:04:27 -0000 To: James Cook cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <18277.849107065.1@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:04:25 -0500 Message-ID: <18279.849107065@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> From: Paul Graham Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk certainly the most notable difference for me is the ability to do the job. i doubt any of the free products could deal with our volume with acceptable delays. a feature that grows more useful every day is the spam filtering done by the listserv backbone. -------- In reply to: > we use the latest version of listserv (1.8c-hpo ``beta''). What would you list as the most notable differences from these free software packages, the most worthwhile? --------------------- -- paul pjg@acsu.Buffalo.EDU |public keys at: pjg@ubvm | http://urth.acsu.Buffalo.EDU/~pjg/key.html if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 07:24:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA22984 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 06:59:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id GAA22966 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 06:59:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18125 invoked by uid 305); 27 Nov 1996 14:58:48 -0000 To: James Cook cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <18113.849106725.1@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:58:46 -0500 Message-ID: <18115.849106726@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> From: Paul Graham Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk i don't really want to get involved in an on-line MLM comparison. i think the FAQ should deal with it. however both lyris and lsoft have web pages. since the archive features and the web interface to them are well documented for listserv i'm not sure why this has come up as an issue. -------- In reply to: The Lyris package (http://www.lyris.com) mentions a few points which may make it more attractive to users. First, it purports to automatically archive AND index all messages, which are full text searchable by use of --------------------- -- paul pjg@acsu.Buffalo.EDU |public keys at: pjg@ubvm | http://urth.acsu.Buffalo.EDU/~pjg/key.html if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 08:10:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA28357 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:08:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from slug.swcp.com (slug.swcp.com [198.59.115.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA28334 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:08:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by slug.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA29734; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:08:34 -0700 Message-Id: <199611271608.JAA29734@slug.swcp.com> Subject: slcb1bbs@juno.com To: xmlistadmin@xmission.com (xmlist), list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:08:32 -0700 (MST) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Don't allow this address onto your lists if you can help it -- they're subscribing to mailing lists so they can spam them. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 18:24:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA21795 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from synergy.transbay.net (synergy.transbay.net [207.105.6.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA21769 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:04:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from kuno (jbuck133.transbay.net [207.105.7.133]) by synergy.transbay.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA09898 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:03:56 GMT Message-Id: <199611271803.SAA09898@synergy.transbay.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "John Buckman" Organization: Walter Shelby Group Ltd. To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:02:22 +7 Subject: re: Lyris X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello - my name is John Buckman, and I'm one of the programmers who works on Lyris, the list server program my company publishes. James Cook told me about this mailing list, and the conversation comparing Lyris, LISTSERV, ListProc & Majordomo, so I thought I'd join in. There have been a few questions about Lyris in the last few days, so I'll talk about these: > It's also only in beta. And only on one platform. Lyris is currently in its 4th beta for Windows NT and Windows 95. It will ship next week when the manuals come back from our printer. Lyris is not limited to Windows. We wrote Lyris to be completely cross platform, and we plan to release Lyris on many platforms: several Unixes, OS/2, Mac and Be. We currently have it running in-house on Win95/NT, Solaris and OS/2. Lyris functions identically on all platforms. The Web interface can currently be run on any Web server with Perl 5.001 (it uses TCP/IP to talk to the Lyris Server). > And they've missed repeated "really soon now" announcements... Yes we did, but we're available now. We held back on releasing Lyris until it worked well, and until we felt it was a significant improvement over what was currently available. Because quite capable programs for running mailing lists already exist -- we felt that no-one would benefit if we released a flawed product. We also added many other features, such as "virtual server", "auto-responders", "mail-robots", and others in response to user testing. > What are the copyright distribution terms on each? Lyris is licensed on a per-machine license. $3000 gets you a limitless version, while $495 and $1495 buy you use-limited versions (10 lists, 500 people, and 40 lists, 2000 people, respectively). There are no recurring fees. > i have no experience with lyris but i find the claims on their web > pages a bit hard to believe. I'd like to know which claims you find hard to believe, so that I can address your concerns. We completely rethought how a list server should function, in an attempt to get around some of the lingering problems with list servers, and have done many things very differently. What you thought was impossible might not be. There's a comprehensive feature list at http://www.lyris.com/features/mail/ > Lyris does appear to offer a 30 day money mback guarantee. So that > may offer a reasonable time within which to test critical features > of interest... Lyris can be downloaded and used free of charge, for creating up to 2 mailing lists with up to 50 people each. This should allow most people to test Lyris out and see if they like it. If you don't like it, Lyris can completely "uninstall" itself from your machine. If you purchase a use-license, you have a 30 day money back guarantee on that. > FWIW, there is very little that is *not* in the current release of > ListProc (8.0) that I feel I need to manage my list. While ListProc is definitely very feature rich, we get many inquiries about Lyris from current ListProc users because Lyris completely eliminates error-mail, cuts out most spam (with new member 1st time moderating), and lets them do everything over the web. ListProc may do these things as well -- but these are the frequent reasons users of our competition's products give for contacting us. > SmartList automatically archives as well. And sticking something > like WebGlimpse on top of it to do full-text searching is trivial. > Somehow I doubt that the text search capabilities of Lyris comes > close to matching the sophistication of a dedicated text search > engine like Glimpse. The text indexing and searching currently in Lyris is a standard "inverted index". Every word in every message is automatically indexed during "idle" time. If you search for several words, such as "cabernet pinot bordeaux" the messages will come back in weighted order. The search capability is similar to what "Lycos" provides, and is very fast. Lyris currently supports two kinds of searches: "look for all these words", "look for any of these words". In most cases, this satisfies most person's needs. In a future version of Lyris, we will support full boolean searching, with AND/OR/NOT query terms. We did not provide full boolean with Lyris version 1.0 because we needed to draw a line somewhere, and decide what whas going to make it into the first version. Glimpse is a very powerful search engine. I don't think Lyris' search capabilities can match it. If I may venture an opinion, I would guess that for many people the feature-gap between what Glimpse provides, and what Lyris provides, is not extremely significant. If you disagree, I'd like to hear about it, so that we can add your most-loved Glimpse features into Lyris. I'll note that Lyris also provides indexed full text searching via email commands ("search "), in addition to reading/searching/contributing on the web. John john@shelby.com, Shelby Group Ltd., http://www.shelby.com/ From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 19:25:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA26221 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 19:09:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA26172 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 19:09:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6556 invoked by uid 305); 28 Nov 1996 03:09:20 -0000 To: "John Buckman" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lyris References: <199611271803.SAA09898@synergy.transbay.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <6544.849150557.1@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:09:18 -0500 Message-ID: <6546.849150558@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> From: Paul Graham Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk * Speed + Extremely fast built-in mail engine can deliver hundreds of messages per second. + Built-in ultra-high-performance database engine provides thousands of transactions per second. + Modern, C++ based multi-threaded design was built with performance as the top priority. i find all of the above claims redolent of marketing department hyperbole. i would be interested in complete disclosure (e.g. for claim one are you refering to input to an smtp server or real remote host deliveries, what sort of platform(s) comprise the testbed, is this a real world test or a simulation) regarding the specifics. i did read your features page which led rather smartly to my apparent incredulity. -------- In reply to: > i have no experience with lyris but i find the claims on their web > pages a bit hard to believe. I'd like to know which claims you find hard to believe, so that I can address your concerns. We completely rethought how a list server should function, in an attempt to get around some of the lingering problems with list servers, and have done many things very differently. What you thought was impossible might not be. --------------------- -- paul From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 20:10:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA00515 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 19:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com ([204.174.213.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA00480 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 19:56:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brian@localhost) by ilinx.ilinx.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id TAA02009; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 19:55:47 -0800 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199611280355.TAA02009@ilinx.ilinx.com> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 19:55:46 -0800 (PST) To: jbuckman@shelby.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: re[2]: Lyris In-Reply-To: <199611271803.SAA09898@synergy.transbay.net> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3-960829-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of "John Buckman" on scroll <199611271803.SAA09898@synergy.transbay.net> > Lyris is licensed on a per-machine license. $3000 gets you a > limitless version, while $495 and $1495 buy you use-limited versions > (10 lists, 500 people, and 40 lists, 2000 people, respectively). > There are no recurring fees. You've just hit a pet peeve of mine and this is probably going to have to come off of list-managers real soon like, but... How do you justify the increase in price when the lists/subscribers gets bigger? What more do I get when I pay the premium for more lists and/or subscribers? I must get "more" of something due to the increase in the price? b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 20:40:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA03459 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 20:36:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from synergy.transbay.net (synergy.transbay.net [207.105.6.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA03430 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 20:36:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from kuno (jbuck133.transbay.net [207.105.7.133]) by synergy.transbay.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA10267; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 20:36:06 GMT Message-Id: <199611272036.UAA10267@synergy.transbay.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "John Buckman" Organization: Walter Shelby Group Ltd. To: Paul Graham Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 20:34:33 +7 Subject: Re: Lyris CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > i find all of the above claims redolent of marketing department hyperbole. > i would be interested in complete disclosure (e.g. for claim one are you > refering to input to an smtp server or real remote host deliveries, what > sort of platform(s) comprise the testbed, is this a real world test or > a simulation) regarding the specifics. Here is some more information on each of these statements. > Extremely fast built-in mail engine can deliver hundreds of messages > per second. We wrote our own mail engine for Lyris, both for sending and receiving mail. Mail receiving is fairly simple, so I'll concentrate on mail sending. The mail engine is built using a technique called multithreading. This means that instead of launching a separate process (with a fork), a separate thread of execution is launched, which runs independently, but uses very little system resources (a separate stack and local variables). Depending on what operating system you are running on, you are looking at a 10k-20k overhead per thread, plus the memory needed to store the message in memory (messages larger than 10k are spooled to disk). At on overhead of 50k per message, that would allow you launch 200 simultaneous message threads using 10 megs of memory. As you know, the speed of message delivery is largely determined by the number of concurrent message sending operations you can have running. That's why, on really big Unix systems, system administrators are able to get great delivery times with sendmail -- they have the memory and CPU power to launch tons of sendmail processes. That's also why many people use alternative programs to sendmail, because those alternatives use less memory (and hopefully less CPU) and thus can have many more concurrent copies running. Multithreading is the same technique which allows many Web servers to be so efficient. Each time someone requests a web page, the web server launches a thread to take care of the request, and then waits for the next request. Because each thread takes very little memory, the web server is able to service more concurrent requests than if it did not use multithreading. The downside to our approach is that we are unable to port Lyris to platforms which do not support multithreading. So, Lyris cannot be ported to SunOS, SCO, BSDI, freeBSD and a few other Unixes. All our tests have been conducted using a Pentium 133, w/64mb of RAM, running either Windows NT, OS/2 or Caldera Linux (linux performs about 30% better, largely because of a strong TCP/IP implementation). On an ethernet network, mailing to a limited number of machines (on our network), we saw delivery speeds around 300,000 messages per hour. Of course, that is an artificial number, because the Internet is not as fast as Ethernet, but it gives us an idea of the speed of our mail engine. On a shared T1, using the Internet, mailing to 3000 people, we reached about 100 concurrent sending threads. Lyris memory usage at that point was about 5 megs, and the message we were sending was 4k in size. In that particular case, we delivered mail (to the Internet, to real people), at a rate of 28,000 messages per hour (that's after 100% delivery complete). However, those 3000 people represents the largest test we have today -- that's because Lyris is a new program, and hasn't been tested with really huge lists yet. Because Lyris keeps hourly mail sending statistics, we'll have more accurate delivery numbers once more people start using Lyris for large lists. > Built-in ultra-high-performance database engine provides thousands > of transactions per second. We license a well respected C/C++ based database engine, which uses a FoxPro compatible index and data format. As many articles in the press can attest, the FoxPro format is extremely fast. Our benchmarks have clocked speeds of 6,000 new documents created per second. In more real-life tests, the full text indexing thread indexes about 30 words per second into the database. That's a query-read-modify-write-commit series of operations. When we query the database for the email addresses of all the members of a 3000 person list, the operation takes less than a second. The database engine uses row-level locking (it doesn't lock the entire file) so that each thread can access the database independently. > Modern, C++ based multi-threaded design was built with performance > as the top priority. Lyris was written completely from scratch in C++. Everything is a prioritized thread, which makes it very responsive, since user-interface threads run in the highest priority. Message indexing happens during idle time, as a lowest priority thread, so it doesn't get in the way. Lyris is a single program, and uses, when idle, about 3mb of RAM. It maintains its own internal RAM, database and disk caches. It uses a message-based system, so that threads that are not doing anything consume no CPU time. Everything is self-contained, and no external programs are launched. Of course, there are still many performance enhancements we want to add--but I think that the core we have developed is pretty good. > i did read your features page which led rather smartly to my > apparent incredulity. I hope this message helps address some of your doubts. I invite you to download a copy (once your platform is supported) and give it a spin so you can decide for yourself whether you like it or not. John john@shelby.com, Shelby Group Ltd., http://www.shelby.com/ From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 20:55:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA03669 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 20:39:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.16.65]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA03637 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 20:39:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2 (205.160.16.66) by ec3.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.82) with SMTP id ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 23:38:49 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 23:38:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: re[2]: Lyris Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 27 Nov 96 at 19:55, Brian J. Murrell wrote: > How do you justify the increase in price when the lists/subscribers gets > bigger? What more do I get when I pay the premium for more lists and/or > subscribers? I must get "more" of something due to the increase in the > price? > This has been a puzzle to me as well. I think Lsoft has a similar pricing model with recurring charges thrown in. I can understand some price differential if the managing larger lists or large number of lists included additional management features - still I would expect the price not to be that different from the basic package. If software were to be priced based on the amount of work done by it, we would have some strange pricing scenarios. Let us see - we have this 10 table, 10,000 row/table RDBMS, a 100 table & 100,000 rows upgrade and you can always buy the unlimited version. And so on... :-) Sort of like Windows NT Server and Workstation pricing. Gess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Gess Shankar pax vobiscum gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com Earth Channel Communications, LLC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 21:10:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA05761 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 20:59:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from synergy.transbay.net (synergy.transbay.net [207.105.6.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA05743 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 20:59:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from kuno (jbuck133.transbay.net [207.105.7.133]) by synergy.transbay.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA10357; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 20:59:02 GMT Message-Id: <199611272059.UAA10357@synergy.transbay.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "John Buckman" Organization: Walter Shelby Group Ltd. To: "Brian J. Murrell" Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 20:57:29 +7 Subject: Re: re[2]: Lyris CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > How do you justify the increase in price when the lists/subscribers gets > bigger? What more do I get when I pay the premium for more lists and/or > subscribers? I must get "more" of something due to the increase in the > price? Basically, Lyris is a high end list server packages. A lot of work has gone into developing it, and a lot of work continues to go into improving it. Because free software exists, we need to be much better in order to justify charging a price at all. Our use-limited pricing scheme is not without precedent. Many server programs, such as Network servers (Novell, Windows NT, Solaris) and Database servers (Oracle, Sybase) offer similar pricing schemes. The only alternatives are to cater exclusively to the high end (with only a high-priced version) or to offer limited versions in some way. We thought about offering cheaper versions of Lyris which had features removed (no web interface, for instance), but decided that would really frustrate people. Instead, we decided to meter how much "use" you are going to get out of Lyris as a way to offer a less expensive entry point. That way, even the least expensive version has all the features and benefits of the full version. Every pricing scheme has its faults and its advantages. This is what we decided on. It allows us to develop a good product, continue improving it, and make a reasonable profit. john john@shelby.com, Shelby Group Ltd., http://www.shelby.com/ From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 21:54:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA09212 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 21:47:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA09203 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 21:47:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from attitude.queernet.org (attitude.queernet.org [140.174.78.2]) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id VAA15464; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 21:45:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19961127214640.026f3448@pop.queernet.org> X-Sender: rogerk@pop.queernet.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 beta 1 (32) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 21:46:42 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Subject: Re: re[2]: Lyris Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 27 Nov 96 at 19:55, Brian J. Murrell wrote: > How do you justify the increase in price when the lists/subscribers gets > bigger? What more do I get when I pay the premium for more lists and/or > subscribers? I must get "more" of something due to the increase in the > price? Whether or not you agree with it, the logic is: you are LICENSING (not purchasing) tools for the accomplishment of benefit to you. The licensor has the right to derive more benefit when the licensor does. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 22:01:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA08723 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 21:43:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw.home.vix.com ([192.5.5.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA08716 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 21:42:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from UUzorch@localhost) by gw.home.vix.com (8.8.3/) with UUCP id VAA05788 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 21:24:08 -0800 (PST) X-btw: vix.com is also gw.home.vix.com and vixie.sf.ca.us Received: (from news@localhost) by zorch.sf-bay.org (8.8.2/8.8.2) id VAA20833 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 21:22:40 -0800 (PST) Newsgroups: zorch.lists.list-managers Path: zorch.sf-bay.org!scott From: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org (Scott Hazen Mueller) Subject: Re: re[2]: Lyris Distribution: zorch Reply-To: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org Organization: At Home; Salida, CA Message-ID: References: <199611280355.TAA02009@ilinx.ilinx.com> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: localhost.sf-bay.org Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 05:22:38 GMT Lines: 21 Apparently-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >How do you justify the increase in price when the lists/subscribers gets >bigger? What more do I get when I pay the premium for more lists and/or >subscribers? I must get "more" of something due to the increase in the price? Actually, after making a pass at running a "huge" (25,000 subs when I did the message run) list, I think that software that can handle that size range can easily justify its price. I blew basically a day babysitting zmailer because it kept puking all over the place. I left that job with nearly 1000 bounce messages sitting in mailboxes; at one a minute they would have taken literally days to read. The list would have run once a month (it was a newsletter), so 4 days of my time (at a burdened rate of $50-$60/hour) would have run say $1600 each month. A year of that pays for a lot of heavy-duty list-manager software. What you're paying for is industrial-strength design, coding, testing and experience. Take my case and do it daily or weekly. $5000 is cheap for a piece of software that makes it routine and automated for lists with 10s of thousands of subscribers. \scott From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 22:25:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA11812 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:10:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA11766 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:10:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from attitude.queernet.org (attitude.queernet.org [140.174.78.2]) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id WAA16787; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:08:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19961127220928.018351b8@pop.queernet.org> X-Sender: rogerk@pop.queernet.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 beta 1 (32) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:09:29 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Subject: Re: re[2]: Lyris Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:46 PM 11/27/96 -0800, I wrote: >The licensor has the right to derive more benefit when the licensor does. ...but meant the second "licensor" to be "licensee." Oops. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 22:27:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA12546 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:18:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.inetnebr.com (falcon.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA12480 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:17:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway.tssi.com [198.147.197.29]) by falcon.inetnebr.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA29671 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 00:17:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA07472 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 00:17:38 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA02961 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 00:17:35 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199611280617.AAA02961@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: re[2]: Lyris To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 00:17:35 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > What you're paying for is industrial-strength design, coding, testing and > experience. Take my case and do it daily or weekly. $5000 is cheap for a > piece of software that makes it routine and automated for lists with 10s of > thousands of subscribers. I agree completely, and per-user or incremental pricing is not unusual for large scale software packages. (Oracle comes to mind--welcome to the world of corporate software!) The issue is whether this package, still in beta, qualifies as industrial strength yet. After they've had some INDEPENDENT beta users or software reviewers report on how it functioned in a real-world environment, I'll be willing to admit that their claims are more than marketing hype, but at this point that's all they are. I run a free list with over 1000 subscribers on it using procmail/smartlist, and although it is a good package maintenance issues still take up a lot of my (uncompensated) time. But even though I might be interested in this package, I'd say that given the current pricing structure it has little or no chance of getting my business. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 22:39:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA13098 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:28:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.213.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA13091 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brian@localhost) by ilinx.ilinx.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id WAA02482; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:28:08 -0800 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199611280628.WAA02482@ilinx.ilinx.com> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:28:08 -0800 (PST) To: rogerk@QueerNet.ORG Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re[4]: Lyris In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19961127214640.026f3448@pop.queernet.org> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3-960829-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of "Roger B.A. Klorese" on scroll <3.0.1.32.19961127214640.026f3448@pop.queernet.org> > Whether or not you agree with it, the logic is: you are LICENSING (not > purchasing) tools for the accomplishment of benefit to you. The > licensor has the right to derive more benefit when the licensor does. Because I bought a bigger machine (had to pay for the extra resource), capable of doing more/bigger lists that somehow reflects on how much more the software has delivered me. The software is doing exaclty what it was when I had 3 lists, my hardware just got bigger and able to handle more lists/users. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 22:45:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA13427 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.213.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA13408 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brian@localhost) by ilinx.ilinx.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id WAA02501; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:31:26 -0800 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199611280631.WAA02501@ilinx.ilinx.com> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:31:25 -0800 (PST) To: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re[4]: Lyris In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3-960829-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of scott@zorch.sf-bay.org (Scott Hazen Mueller) on scroll > What you're paying for is industrial-strength design, coding, testing and > experience. Take my case and do it daily or weekly. $5000 is cheap for > a > piece of software that makes it routine and automated for lists with 10s > of > thousands of subscribers. Then charge what it's worth. Not how much work it can do based on how much I spent on hardware. I really don't want to drag this on. The bottom line I guess is that they are free to price the software any way they want whether it annoys me or not. Just thought I would give them something to think about. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 22:51:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA12987 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:25:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.213.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA12973 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:25:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brian@localhost) by ilinx.ilinx.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id WAA02467; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:25:21 -0800 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199611280625.WAA02467@ilinx.ilinx.com> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:25:20 -0800 (PST) To: jbuckman@shelby.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re[4]: Lyris In-Reply-To: <199611272059.UAA10357@synergy.transbay.net> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3-960829-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of "John Buckman" on scroll <199611272059.UAA10357@synergy.transbay.net> > Our use-limited pricing scheme is not without precedent. Many > server programs, such as Network servers (Novell, Windows NT, > Solaris) and Database servers (Oracle, Sybase) offer similar pricing > schemes. Mom used to say "if Jamie jumped off a bridge would you do it?". Precident is not a good reason. > The only alternatives are to cater exclusively to the high end (with > only a high-priced version) or to offer limited versions in some way. Why not make money on volume? Has everybody lost this idea? If the lower priced software were truely a "lesser" product - like didn't thread SMTP clients for instance, then I could get along with your charging different prices. In that scenario, I really am getting more for more money. Of course in my model I also get less for paying less. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 23:24:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA16166 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 23:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id XAA16159 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 23:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from attitude.queernet.org (attitude.queernet.org [140.174.78.2]) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id XAA20602 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19961127231315.0117d364@pop.queernet.org> X-Sender: rogerk@pop.queernet.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 beta 1 (32) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 23:13:16 -0800 To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Subject: Re: Re[4]: Lyris Cc: rogerk@queernet.org, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:28 PM 11/27/96 -0800, Brian J. Murrell wrote: >from the quill of "Roger B.A. Klorese" on scroll ><3.0.1.32.19961127214640.026f3448@pop.queernet.org> >> Whether or not you agree with it, the logic is: you are LICENSING (not >> purchasing) tools for the accomplishment of benefit to you. The >> licensor has the right to derive more benefit when the licensor does. > >Because I bought a bigger machine (had to pay for the extra resource), >capable of doing more/bigger lists that somehow reflects on how much more >the software has delivered me. The software is doing exaclty what it was >when I had 3 lists, my hardware just got bigger and able to handle more >lists/users. Absolutely true. Again, as I said: it is the belief of software companies that they have a right to dollars based on the increase in benefit you derive, not based on an increase intrinsic to their providing you more. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 27 23:41:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA16563 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 23:27:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id XAA16543 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 23:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rwneill@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id CAE28881; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 02:25:17 EST To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Happy Thanksgiving Message-ID: <19961128.012412.20431.4.rwneill@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-6,8,10-11,13,15-24 From: rwneill@juno.com (Robert W. Neill, Jr.) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 02:25:17 EST Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I wanted to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving. While not every holiday in our lives is filled with the shining magic and happiness of years past, holidays are an opportunity to reflect on where we have been and where we want to go in our lives. Thanksgiving always reminds me of the first time I came across Truman Capote's classic story The Thanksgiving Visitor set in small town Alabama in which the young Buddy learns from his elderly cousin Sook the spirit of thanks when she invites the town bully for Thanksgiving dinner. If you find yourself alone this Thanksgiving, think about what you can do for the day that would help others - volunteer and help serve food at a homeless shelter, visit someone who is shutin, in the hospital, or a nursing home, or find your own creative way to use your talents and resources to help others. Best wishes to all. Robert W. Neill, Jr. Robert W. Neill, Jr. aj148@lafn.org Neill Online From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 03:10:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id DAA27663 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 03:04:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id DAA27612 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 03:03:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611281103.DAA27612@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <6.9D2FF959@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:03:21 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 1065; Thu, 28 Nov 96 11:56:49 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 5969; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:56:49 +0100 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:09:50 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Lyris To: Paul Graham , John Buckman cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 27 Nov 1996 20:34:33 +7 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 Nov 1996 20:34:33 +7 John Buckman said: >All our tests have been conducted using a Pentium 133, w/64mb of RAM, >running either Windows NT, OS/2 or Caldera Linux (linux performs about >30% better, largely because of a strong TCP/IP implementation). On an >ethernet network, mailing to a limited number of machines (on our >network), we saw delivery speeds around 300,000 messages per hour. Of >course, that is an artificial number, because the Internet is not as >fast as Ethernet, but it gives us an idea of the speed of our mail >engine. Actually, this is a completely meaningless number because it does not exercise the areas of SMTP delivery which are difficult to scale and implement in an efficient way, and which are your bottlenecks as the workload increases. The only thing it exercises is the protocol engine, ie the code that sends a HELO command, waits for the answer, sends MAIL FROM:, and so forth. This is straightforward code that tends to be implemented with a similar level of efficiency on most products. There are only so many ways to format a RCPT TO: line and then send it over the socket. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that you can get these 300k/hour using sendmail on the same hardware, if you configured and tuned it for the task. One of our competitors (now out of the mailing list business) used to make claims in the 100 messages per second range, and they were using sendmail. They might have made the numbers up, but they were serious enough that I think they actually built a setup where they got these figures, so they wouldn't have to worry about lawsuits from irate customers. Of course you don't get anywhere near 100/sec with sendmail with a real workload, so this still gave prospective customers an inaccurate picture of the true, actual performance they could expect when purchasing list hosting services from this company. >On a shared T1, using the Internet, mailing to 3000 people, we reached >about 100 concurrent sending threads. Lyris memory usage at that point >was about 5 megs, and the message we were sending was 4k in size. In >that particular case, we delivered mail (to the Internet, to real >people), at a rate of 28,000 messages per hour (that's after 100% >delivery complete). A rate which you should be able to reach with a properly tuned sendmail with such a small user base. And which, incidentally, is not "hundreds per second" but 7.7 per second. Come to think about it, 300k/hour is 83.3/sec. "Hundreds per second" is at least 200/sec or 720k/hour. >However, those 3000 people represents the largest test we have today You aren't seriously suggesting that the figures will improve as the number of users and hosts in your workload increases? :-) 3000 people should be more than enough hosts to keep your 100 threads busy. That is, you aren't in a situation where you just don't have enough work to keep your setup busy. Furthermore, minute and hour rates are completely different animals. Correct if me if I'm wrong, but what you're telling us here is that you've made 3000 deliveries in around 6 min 30, which you're extrapolating to 28,000/hour - right? I wish it worked this way, but it doesn't. For instance, I run a server that is capable of sustaining 120/sec or more over relatively short periods of time (say 5-10 min), especially in cases where it gets a single posting to many people at a time when activity is otherwise low. This is with real world traffic of course. While this suggests the server can deliver 432k messages an hour, and while if you run the code for 6 months and you are lucky, you just *might* find a 60-min interval where you came close to this figure, in practice, on a normal hour, this machine only does some 210-220k/hour. For planning purposes, the figure the customers need is the 210-220k/hour one (and this is the one we advertise for this hardware). >When we query the database for the email addresses of all the members of >a 3000 person list, the operation takes less than a second. Well, "less than a second" to read the recipient lists for a 3000-subscriber list is far from impressive. Any compiled list manager should be able to do 10-100 times better with a silly plain text file. "Thousands of transactions per second", in the context in which this claim is made, suggests that you can process thousands of search requests per second, which I doubt. Eric From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 03:55:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id DAA28624 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 03:50:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from uu4.psi.com (uu4.psi.com [38.146.21.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id DAA28610 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 03:50:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from jsoft.com by uu4.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.940727-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA20183 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 96 06:43:32 -0500 Received: by jsoft.com (NX5.67e/NX3.02M) id AA12420; Thu, 28 Nov 96 05:28:00 -0600 Message-Id: <9611281128.AA12420@ jsoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Gary Frederick Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 05:27:58 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: mailing lists and USENET Reply-To: gary.frederick@jsoft.com References: <199611271803.SAA09898@synergy.transbay.net> <6546.849150558@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk is there a FAQ or howto about mirroring newsgroups and mailing lists? Thanks. Gary From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 04:55:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA00218 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 04:43:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.16.65]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id EAA00200 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 04:43:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2 (205.160.16.66) by ec3.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.82) with SMTP id ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 07:42:27 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 07:42:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: re[2]: Lyris Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 27 Nov 96 at 20:57, John Buckman wrote: > Every pricing scheme has its faults and its advantages. This is what > we decided on. It allows us to develop a good product, continue > improving it, and make a reasonable profit. > Yep. This is what counts. Not precedents like Microsoft or Oracle. If I bought a web server software, I don't want Netscape telling me how many servers I can host, how many users can connect to it, or how many documents I can publish. Or charge me based on such criteria. Price differentiation based on feature set is more acceptable as in a lite version vs an enterprise version, but not for the capacity of the work done by the software. List management software is similar to a web, ftp, or smtp server than Oracle and Novell and other per seat pricing mavens. Gess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Gess Shankar pax vobiscum gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com Earth Channel Communications, LLC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 07:10:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA04794 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 07:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from cantec.com ([206.31.250.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA04779 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 07:01:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from www by cantec.com with SMTP (IPAD 1.12) id 4328500 ; Thu, 28 Nov 96 10:00:05 UTC Message-Id: <2.2.32.19961128145659.00361304@cantec.com> X-Sender: dbigham@cantec.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:56:59 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Bigham Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am interested in knowing how Lyris compares to some of the other list servers. I am particularly interested in a comparison with NTList. Any comments will be appreciated and probably useful to the list. Dave Bigham dbigham@cantec.com From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 09:28:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA10912 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom.netcom.com (netcom.netcom.com [192.100.81.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA10896 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:16:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jcook@localhost) by netcom.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id JAA29601; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:16:18 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:16:18 -0800 (PST) From: James Cook Subject: Re: Lyris cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199611281103.DAA27612@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Nov 1996, Eric Thomas wrote: > Actually, this is a completely meaningless number because it does not > exercise the areas of SMTP delivery which are difficult to scale and > implement in an efficient way, and which are your bottlenecks as the > workload increases. The only thing it exercises is the protocol engine, > ie the code that sends a HELO command, waits for the answer, sends MAIL > FROM:, and so forth. This is straightforward code that tends to be > implemented with a similar level of efficiency on most products. There > are only so many ways to format a RCPT TO: line and then send it over the > socket. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that you can get these 300k/hour > using sendmail on the same hardware, if you configured and tuned it for This thread on Lyris architecture and performance is educational in my view. I appreciate the detailed look. It would also be helpful to suggest *meaningful* methods of testing or evaluating *real world* performance of listservers. For example, Lyris has a 30 day money back guarantee. So it is possible to have a no risk test period (except for time invested testing). To take greatest advantage of that period, what is the smartest method of testing it...or others? Thank you. James cook From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 10:54:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA14171 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:51:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from synergy.transbay.net (synergy.transbay.net [207.105.6.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA14147 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:51:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from kuno (jbuck133.transbay.net [207.105.7.133]) by synergy.transbay.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA12763; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:51:01 GMT Message-Id: <199611281051.KAA12763@synergy.transbay.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "John Buckman" Organization: Walter Shelby Group Ltd. To: Eric Thomas Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:49:30 +7 Subject: Re: Lyris CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > One of our competitors (now out of the mailing list business) > used to make claims in the 100 messages per second range, and > they were using sendmail. They might have made the numbers up, > but they were serious enough that I think they actually built a > setup where they got these figures, so they wouldn't have to > worry about lawsuits from irate customers. If I may quote from an L-Soft press release: > The total number of subscribers at the site as of September > 10th, 1996 was over 985,000 (for all 36 lists). Typically, 98% of > the CNET Digital Dispatch subscribers receive their copy in less > than 1 1/2 hours. If we crunch the numbers on this statement, we get: 985,000 * .98 delivery = 965,300 messages delivered 965,300 messages delivered in 90 minutes = 10,725 messages per minute 10,725 messages per minute = 178 messages per second So, you are making a similar claim. Your rate is 643,500 messages per hour, while we are claiming half that: 300k/hour. Lyris is a new product, LISTSERV has been around ages. In the mail mailing world, Eric has the advantage of years of statistics sending mail. Our current delivery numbers are approximations of what we believe Lyris can do. We'll have much more accurate numbers in a few months. Note, however, that our sending model is _completely_ different from LISTSERV, ListProc and Majordomo. Every message which goes out to a list member is slightly different. Each message contains the member's name and ID in the SMTP header, so that if the message bounces, it is much easier to identify, thanks to SMTP header information. The To: address of every message is always the recipient's email address, not the list name. This makes it simple for the recipient to determine what email address they are subscribed with. I don't know of any list server which has these capabilities. > Well, "less than a second" to read the recipient lists > for a 3000-subscriber list is far from impressive. Any compiled > list manager should be able to do 10-100 times better with a > silly plain text file. "Thousands of transactions per second", > in the context in which this claim is made, suggests that you can > process thousands of search requests per second, which I doubt. A database and a text file are two completely different things, you simply cannot compare numbers. With a text file, you already have the result set, all you need to do is read it in. With a database, you are specifying what result set you want, and it is dynamically created. With a database, I'm able to query the database of subscribers, and return it in sorted order by domain name (which speeds up mail sending), by first name, by email address, etc. These are all useful operations, and that's where a database is handy. For instance, when someone wants to unsubscribe, you'll first want to search the subscriber list for their email address. If that's not there, you'll want to find their firstname/lastname. Finally, if that still doesn't work, you'll want to find all the email addresses with the same domain name as them, see if any of those are close (perhaps just an added hostname) and make a decision based on that. For these reasons, and many more, we decided to use a fast database engine at the core of Lyris. It was a lot more work than using text files to store information, but based on the features we wanted to implement, it was the only way to go. A few examples: Lyris allows you to set the number of moderated messages per user. For instance, you can set your list up so that new members to a list need to have their first posting to the list approved by the moderator. Once that message is approved, that person is free to post. This technique effectively gets rid of spam, since spammers join a mailing list, and send their spam as the 1st post. Another use: if a member is not behaving themselves, you target them for moderating, and say that the next 5 postings from them need to be approved (but noone else on the lists needs approval). Another example of the advantages of using a database are in reading message archives. On the fly, you can sort messages by topic, by author, by date, etc. You can text search using a word index of the messages. John john@shelby.com, Shelby Group Ltd., http://www.shelby.com/ From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 11:26:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA15546 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA15539 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:14:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23013 invoked by uid 305); 28 Nov 1996 19:14:15 -0000 To: James Cook cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lyris References: Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:14:11 -0500 Message-ID: <23004.849208451@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> From: Paul Graham Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [first let me say that the 30-day m.b.g. doesn't mean anything to me and i don't think it's helpful when you get serious. seems like more marketing noise.] the only way to test real-world performance is to run things in the real world. this is somewhere between really hard and impossible. how does lsoft do it? they run the largest public mail server in the world. they might even make money doing it but it would be worth it to them if they did it for free because if the code works for them it will work for almost anyone. i suspect that if you're in the 10k delivery range it doesn't matter what you use, if you're in the 100k range any decent system (something smarter than majordomo) should do. around 500k things start to get ugly if you want to deliver ~75% of your traffic in less than 30 minutes. of course this is just a single metric. other things matter even more than delivery. say you have a list with 500k members. how long does it take to update that list? how long does it take to go from a message in to all messages out (to the smtp engine)? what happens if you lose power just as you start to deliver 60k messages? what happens when you can't talk to a major message sink (say the site AOL or the network MCI) for 36 hours? what happens when your persistent queue (mail that will ultimately be returned to the sender) always has 150k messages in it? -------- In reply to: This thread on Lyris architecture and performance is educational in my view. I appreciate the detailed look. It would also be helpful to suggest *meaningful* methods of testing or evaluating *real world* performance of listservers. --------------------- -- paul pjg@acsu.Buffalo.EDU |public keys at: pjg@ubvm | http://urth.acsu.Buffalo.EDU/~pjg/key.html if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 11:39:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA16737 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:28:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA16721 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:28:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23165 invoked by uid 305); 28 Nov 1996 19:28:01 -0000 To: "John Buckman" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lyris References: <199611281051.KAA12763@synergy.transbay.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <23153.849209278.1@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:27:58 -0500 Message-ID: <23155.849209278@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> From: Paul Graham Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk the lsoft pages on lsmtp explain how to assess delivery rates. e.g. while the 98% mark might be 90 minutes the 90% mark might be 90 seconds. i certainly hope the To: address is configurable. i'm on a list that has my address on the To: line and i rewrite it while filtering because it's so annoying. to say nothing of breaking a lot of (marginal) vacation programs. -------- In reply to: If we crunch the numbers on this statement, we get: 10,725 messages per minute = 178 messages per second ------------------ The To: address of every message is always the recipient's email address, not the list name. This makes it simple for the recipient to determine what email address they are subscribed with. --------------------- -- paul pjg@acsu.Buffalo.EDU |public keys at: pjg@ubvm | http://urth.acsu.Buffalo.EDU/~pjg/key.html if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 14:09:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA22367 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from outlawnet.com (outlawnet.com [204.245.248.202]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA22360 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from 208.192.38.76 (empnet44.empnet.com [208.192.38.76]) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16196 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:02:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <329E0C43.51E5@outlawnet.com> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:03:53 -0800 From: Gary Bickford Reply-To: garyb@outlawnet.com Organization: FXT Corporation X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: re[3]: Lyris References: <199611280900.BAA22405@miles.greatcircle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: "Gess Shankar" > Subject: Re: re[2]: Lyris > > On 27 Nov 96 at 19:55, Brian J. Murrell wrote: > > > How do you justify the increase in price when the lists/subscribers gets > > bigger? What more do I get when I pay the premium for more lists and/or > > subscribers? I must get "more" of something due to the increase in the > > price? > > > > This has been a puzzle to me as well. I think Lsoft has a similar > pricing model with recurring charges thrown in. I can understand some > price differential if the managing larger lists or large number of > lists included additional management features - still I would expect > the price not to be that different from the basic package. If As a disinterested observer, I can answer this one. There are two points. 1. Many industries, including electric power, telephone and software, are really "capital accumulation" businesses - nearly all the costs are incurred in the front end, not in ongoing operations. The purpose of charging the customer is to finance development of new facilities and, most importantly, pay off the cost of development (read "bonds", in the case of utilities). There are many strategies for convincing the customer to do so. Since essentially all services provided have a trivial added cost, that brings the second point. 2. The first rule of marketing is to set the price according to demand and perceived value, NOT cost. Does a Mercedes Benz cost 8 times as much to build as a Geo? Can you go 8 times as fast? Much TV advertising, for upscale cars in particular, is to increase perceived value. For instance, let's say I want to build a certain kind of computer. I don't take my cost and add X% to get my price - I find out what price I need to sell it at to make the volumes I am targetting, and then figure out if I can build it (and support it, etc.) and make the margin I want to make. Bottom Line: the price is based on what you get, not what it costs. The costs (after original software development are mainly in marketing and support, which are spread pretty evenly across all users. Support per list is probably less for clients with many lists, but also probably somewhat more per client. This is actually a boon for small list owners - otherwise they'd have to pay more, and the cost would be prohibitive. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 14:39:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA23130 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:37:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA23123 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:37:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from attitude.queernet.org (attitude.queernet.org [140.174.78.2]) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id OAA17801 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19961128143638.01109360@pop.queernet.org> X-Sender: rogerk@pop.queernet.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 beta 1 (32) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:36:40 -0800 To: "John Buckman" From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Subject: Re: Lyris Cc: Eric Thomas , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:49 AM 11/28/96 +7, John Buckman wrote: >The To: address of every message is always the recipient's email >address, not the list name. This makes it simple for the recipient >to determine what email address they are subscribed with. Unfortunately, this is a gratuitous rewriting of the original poster's message. If I address mail to foo@somewhere.com, I expect messages to arrive at the user saying that. If you wish to do address detection, put it in a user-defined header. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 15:10:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA23594 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:55:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from garcon.unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA23587 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chip@localhost) by garcon.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA05937 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:55:02 -0600 (CST) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199611282255.QAA05937@garcon.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Lyris To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:55:01 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19961128143638.01109360@pop.queernet.org> from "Roger B.A. Klorese" at Nov 28, 1996 02:36:40 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a10] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Roger B.A. Klorese writes: > [regarding rewriting To: header with list recipient name] > Unfortunately, this is a gratuitous rewriting of the original > poster's message. If I address mail to foo@somewhere.com, I > expect messages to arrive at the user saying that. If you wish > to do address detection, put it in a user-defined header. To: munging is much worse than Roger implies. It's a complete abomination. The unstated implication is that Reply-To is munged as well. I'm jumping to that conclusion because I don't see how message r)eply works since the To: header has been corrupted. I'll elide my usual Reply-To munging rant. Check out if you haven't heard it yet. I will, however, quote the one passage that says: This To: munging also breaks neat features like the (as of yet unreleased) Elm 2.5 mailing list handling. I agree with Roger. Adding a unique delivery identifier to list messages is a clever idea. Breaking standard headers to get it is an awful botch. (I'm not clear from the attributions ... is this MISfeature a part of Lyris or is it somebody else's invention?) -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development * URL: http://www.unicom.com/ * 4868D8BE10C86BDE 6017000BA783998E Helmet good. Law bad. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 15:27:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA24408 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 15:15:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from garcon.unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA24395 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 15:15:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chip@localhost) by garcon.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA06526 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 17:14:55 -0600 (CST) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199611282314.RAA06526@garcon.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Lyris To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 17:14:55 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199611282255.QAA05937@garcon.unicom.com> from "Chip Rosenthal" at Nov 28, 1996 04:55:01 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a10] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chip Rosenthal writes: > I will, however, quote the one passage that says: Ooops. The missing passage was: The ``Principle of Minimal Munging'' is a good rule that will keep you out of trouble. It says you should not make any changes to an email header unless you know precisely what you want to do, why you want to do it, and what it will affect. Unless you can articulate a clear reason for munging and understand the full consequences of the action, you should not do it. -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development * URL: http://www.unicom.com/ * 4868D8BE10C86BDE 6017000BA783998E Helmet good. Law bad. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 15:32:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA24459 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 15:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA24438 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 15:15:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mcb@localhost) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) id PAA09944; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 15:14:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611282314.PAA09944@server.postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 15:14:25 +0000 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: "John Buckman" Subject: Re: Lyris Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk John Buckman wrote: >The To: address of every message is always the recipient's email >address, not the list name. This makes it simple for the recipient >to determine what email address they are subscribed with. That's really offensive, and I would eliminate any product that did that from consideration unless it were very easy to turn that feature off. (I'm assuming this is the case, since a list server that does not make it easy for the list manager or site manager to configure outgoing headers exactly the way they want them is basically worthless.) Do you realize that this basically breaks all incoming mail filtering that sorts messages based on recipient headers? You're requiring list managers to invent/insert a special header showing the list name in order to allow people to do the perfectly normal kind of filtering that they've done for years. (I also strongly agree with Roger Klorese that "To:" lines should not be tampered with gratuitously in any case.) -- Michael C Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 15:41:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA25141 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 15:26:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA25121 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 15:25:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from smoe.org (smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id SAA17903; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:25:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4.1-hack1) id AA04508; Thu, 28 Nov 96 18:26:31 EST Message-Id: <9611282326.AA04508@smoe.org> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:26:31 -0500 From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) To: chip@unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lyris References: <3.0.1.32.19961128143638.01109360@pop.queernet.org> <199611282255.QAA05937@garcon.unicom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199611282255.QAA05937@garcon.unicom.com>; from "Chip Rosenthal" on Nov 28, 1996 16:55:01 -0600 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chip Rosenthal writes: > Roger B.A. Klorese writes: > > [regarding rewriting To: header with list recipient name] > > Unfortunately, this is a gratuitous rewriting of the original > > poster's message. If I address mail to foo@somewhere.com, I > > expect messages to arrive at the user saying that. If you wish > > to do address detection, put it in a user-defined header. > > This To: munging also breaks neat features like the (as > of yet unreleased) Elm 2.5 mailing list handling. Yup. It will also break the lists feature of mutt (a great power mailer who's interface was initially based on ELM, but hints of PINE, MUSH and SLRN are also present). If you get lots of mail (list or otherwise, I highly reccomend you grab mutt). With the Lyris authors doing something as questionable as rewriting the To: header, it makes me question how well they understand what they are doing... jeff From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 16:39:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA27088 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:28:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from synergy.transbay.net (synergy.transbay.net [207.105.6.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA27078 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:28:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from kuno (jbuck133.transbay.net [207.105.7.133]) by synergy.transbay.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA13611; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:27:54 GMT Message-Id: <199611281627.QAA13611@synergy.transbay.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "John Buckman" Organization: Walter Shelby Group Ltd. To: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:26:26 +7 Subject: Re: Lyris CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Unfortunately, this is a gratuitous rewriting of the original > poster's message. If I address mail to foo@somewhere.com, I > expect messages to arrive at the user saying that. If you wish > to do address detection, put it in a user-defined header. The main reason we rewrite the To: is that people often have multiple email addresses, with forwarding instructions so that email goes to different places it was originally sent. In such a case, the recipient of list-generated email message doesn't know what email address is registered at the list server. This causes a problem when a user wants to unsubscribe a mailing list, because they are not sure what email address is subscribed. The usual result is that the user writes the list owner asking to be removed, and the list owner then has to figure out what email address the person is subscribed with, and manually remove them (sometimes this is quite difficult). If the user is list server savvy, they can do a search of the subscriber list. However, if you allow users to search the subscriber files, you also end up allowing spammers to read the subscriber list, and add all the members to their list (which, unfortunately, is a common practice). That's why, with Lyris, we decided not to allow the "review" command to show the subscriber list. Another common problem is caused when a person subscribes with one email address, and then tries to post a message from a different email address. The list server doesn't know that they're the same person, and cannot accept the posting. If the person can no longer send mail from the originally subscribed address, that person once again writes the list admin, and asks that the old address be removed and the new one added. Regardless of the various scenarios, list servers which put the listname on the To: line have problems with people not knowing what email address the list server knows them by, and in general, ask the list admin to help them out. If the list server can do something to help out, and save the list admin some time, it's probably worth trying. So, we've done things differently, to try and fix this problem. By making the To: in each email message be who the message is being sent to, the recipient is clear what email address the list server knows them by. Hopefully, the list admin will get a few less personal requests. If the user cannot send email from the old email address, they can go to the web interface and change it. If Lyris gets a posting from someone who's email address is not on the list, but who's name, as extracted from the message header, is on the list, Lyris will return the posting, but with a note that Lyris knows this person by a different email address. Every approach has its good and bad sides. We're trying to solve one particular problem with how list servers work. The compromise is that the To: address is rewritten (and does not say the list name), but we think the lower request load on the list admin is worth it. > Do you realize that this basically breaks all incoming mail > filtering that sorts messages based on recipient headers? The Reply-To:, Sender:, and X-Lyris-List: lines in the mail header all identify the mailing list, and can be read by most mail filtering programs. In my experience, the To: is not always the list name with other list servers either. For instance, the listname might be the CC: address, and the To: might be the email address of the message being replied to. Or, the listname could be the BCC: address, in which case it isn't even visible (even with other list servers). My personal experience has been that the Reply-To header is a reliable way to filter incoming mail, and that works with Lyris well. John john@shelby.com, Shelby Group Ltd., http://www.shelby.com/ From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 17:09:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA27750 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 17:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA27742 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 17:00:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from vicric@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.8.2/8.7/PanixU1.3) id UAA08399; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 20:00:24 -0500 (EST) From: Vicki Richman Message-Id: <199611290100.UAA08399@panix2.panix.com> Subject: Re: Lyris To: chip@unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 20:00:23 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199611282255.QAA05937@garcon.unicom.com> from "Chip Rosenthal" at Nov 28, 96 04:55:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chip Rosenthal has written: > To: munging is much worse than Roger implies. It's a > complete abomination. I may be wrong, but I got the impression that the feature is aimed at one-way exploder lists, for announcements (or advertisements) only. That is, the list-owner is also the only message sender. Typical exploder-list code writes the 'To: ' header something like this: To: (recipient list suppressed) Lyris, seeking cash customers, aims at greater sophistication. Inserting each recipient into a separate copy of the message leads the recipient to believe it is a private message. In hard copy, it's called "mail merge"; the most familiar example is the "You've won $1,000,000" junk mail. I'd guess that typical Lyris customers would be email advertisers -- dare I say spammers? -- seeking a return on their investment. That feature also slows the mailing considerably, despite the poster's claims to speed. In ordinary list messages, one copy is sent out to multiple recipients (although long lists might be broken into blocks of 50 or 100, to reduce errors). But if the 'To: ' header is rewritten for each recipient, a separate copy is sent to each recipient. There is no way multiple copies can match a single copy to multiple recipients in speed. A year or so ago, I wrote a tcsh shell script that did precisely what the Lyris poster claims. I was sending occasional -- fewer than one a month -- announcements to about 1000 dues-paying members of my organization. (A 'while' loop invoked /usr/lib/sendmail for each rewritten copy.) Even though I labeled the mailing as public in a user-header, a large number of recipients wrote back thanking me for what they believed was a personal message. Mailing to the list of 1000 took about 90 minutes, with my Unix shell script. Compiled binary code could do the job many times faster, but I doubt that hundreds per second could be achieved. Maybe ten per second. Maybe. I quickly realized that my script could be used for great evil as well as good, and I stopped using it. If I wanted to identify each recipient separately, I'd now use a user-header, say 'X-Recipient: '. To avoid deception, the 'To: ' header must identify the mailing as to a public list. > The unstated implication is that Reply-To is munged as well. > I'm jumping to that conclusion because I don't see how message > r)eply works since the To: header has been corrupted. > > I'll elide my usual Reply-To munging rant. Check out > if you > haven't heard it yet. I will, however, quote the one > passage that says: Chip, I read your 'Reply-To: ' FAQ, and I disagree completely. My lists and a few of my favorites direct replies to all. I have taken to inserting a footer instructing subscribers how to rewrite the headers for a private reply. I used the Elm 'g' option for this reply, and Chip, you're getting two copies. That would annoy me. I did it just to make my point. Ordinarily I would make a note of the list address, hit 'r', then hopefully remember, before hitting 's', to remove the individual from the 'To: ' line and to insert the list address in its place. I believe Listserv allows the sender's 'Reply-To: ' header, if it exists, to take precedence. If it doesn't exist, as it almost never does, then Listserv inserts the list address into that field. I like that. It gives the sender the option on directing replies. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vicki Richman vicric@panix.com National Writers Union Harlem, New York PGP 2.6 UAW Local 1981, AFL/CIO "You are about to witness an experiment: the effect of electricity on Wood." -Frederick Wood, the last person electrocuted by the State of New York. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 17:40:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA28660 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 17:33:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA28644 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 17:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from smoe.org (smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id UAA29392; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 20:31:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4.1-hack1) id AA06072; Thu, 28 Nov 96 20:32:24 EST Message-Id: <9611290132.AA06072@smoe.org> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 20:32:24 -0500 From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) To: vicric@panix.com (Vicki Richman) Cc: chip@unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lyris References: <199611282255.QAA05937@garcon.unicom.com> <199611290100.UAA08399@panix2.panix.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199611290100.UAA08399@panix2.panix.com>; from "Vicki Richman" on Nov 28, 1996 20:00:23 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Vicki Richman writes: > That feature also slows the mailing considerably, despite > the poster's claims to speed. In ordinary list messages, one > copy is sent out to multiple recipients (although long lists > might be broken into blocks of 50 or 100, to reduce > errors). But if the 'To: ' header is rewritten for each > recipient, a separate copy is sent to each recipient. This is an aspect I hadn't considered fully...I use bulk_mailer for delivery to sort the recipient list by domain, allowing, say, all messages destined for AOL or Netcom to be sent off in one SMTP transaction. For my moderate sized lists it's a big win, and I'd have to say it'd be a HUGE win for large lists where you're likely to have multiple subscribers at each domain. -Jeff From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 18:24:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA00677 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:17:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.213.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA00670 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:17:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brian@localhost) by ilinx.ilinx.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id SAA07159; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:16:44 -0800 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199611290216.SAA07159@ilinx.ilinx.com> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:16:42 -0800 (PST) To: jbuckman@shelby.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re[2]: Lyris In-Reply-To: <199611281627.QAA13611@synergy.transbay.net> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3-960829-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of "John Buckman" on scroll <199611281627.QAA13611@synergy.transbay.net> > The Reply-To:, Sender:, and X-Lyris-List: lines in the mail header > all identify the mailing list, and can be read by most mail filtering > programs. Then how 'bout leaving the To: address alone and using an X-Subscribed-As: header. You can add an X-To-Stop-Getting-This-Mail: header if you like, but leave the official headers alone. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 18:55:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA01357 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from synergy.transbay.net (synergy.transbay.net [207.105.6.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA01350 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:40:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from kuno (jbuck133.transbay.net [207.105.7.133]) by synergy.transbay.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA13883; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:38:48 GMT Message-Id: <199611281838.SAA13883@synergy.transbay.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "John Buckman" Organization: Walter Shelby Group Ltd. To: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:37:19 +7 Subject: Re: Lyris CC: chip@unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > This is an aspect I hadn't considered fully...I use bulk_mailer > for delivery to sort the recipient list by domain, allowing, say, > all messages destined for AOL or Netcom to be sent off in one > SMTP transaction. For my moderate sized lists it's a big win, and > I'd have to say it'd be a HUGE win for large lists where you're > likely to have multiple subscribers at each domain. Lyris does the same thing. Messages to the same domain are grouped together and sent in many fewer SMTP sessions. Actually, we had to do this, or risk crashing other people's SMTP servers. Many people have sendmail badly configured, and opening up 100 simultaneous SMTP sessions to them would do bad things. At the very least, it would block all other incoming mail while this was happening. At worst, it could crash them. So, Lyris will open up to 10 simultaneous connections to a single host, and will serialize the message sends into those connections. jb john@shelby.com, Shelby Group Ltd., http://www.shelby.com/ From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 19:09:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA01947 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 19:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA01940 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 19:02:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from smoe.org (smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id WAA07901; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 22:01:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4.1-hack1) id AA06667; Thu, 28 Nov 96 22:02:41 EST Message-Id: <9611290302.AA06667@smoe.org> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 22:02:40 -0500 From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) To: jbuckman@shelby.com (John Buckman) Cc: chip@unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lyris References: <199611281838.SAA13883@synergy.transbay.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199611281838.SAA13883@synergy.transbay.net>; from "John Buckman" on Nov 28, 1996 18:37:19 +2228 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk John Buckman writes: > Actually, we had to do this, or risk crashing other people's SMTP > servers. Many people have sendmail badly configured, and opening up > 100 simultaneous SMTP sessions to them would do bad things. At the > very least, it would block all other incoming mail while this was > happening. At worst, it could crash them. So, Lyris will open up to > 10 simultaneous connections to a single host, and will serialize the > message sends into those connections. But if you didn't muck with the To: header, you could open one connection, send all of the addresses in a batch and then send one copy of the body. This places a much lower load on the intervening network(s) and also on the receiving machine. -Jeff From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 19:41:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA02510 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 19:29:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from synergy.transbay.net (synergy.transbay.net [207.105.6.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA02503 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 19:29:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from kuno (jbuck133.transbay.net [207.105.7.133]) by synergy.transbay.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA13994; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 19:28:50 GMT Message-Id: <199611281928.TAA13994@synergy.transbay.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "John Buckman" Organization: Walter Shelby Group Ltd. To: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 19:27:22 +7 Subject: Re: Lyris CC: chip@unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > But if you didn't muck with the To: header, you could open one > connection, send all of the addresses in a batch and then send > one copy of the body. > > This places a much lower load on the intervening network(s) and > also on the receiving machine. It's not for the To: header that we're sending independent, unique messages. It's because every message is tagged with a unique identifier (X-Lyris-MemberID) in the message header so that if the message bounces, Lyris is able to identify who bounced it by that header. This means that Lyris is able to automatically process a higher percentage of error mail, and understand what caused it, than if every message were identical. Since list owners spend a huge amount of time dealing with error mail, we think this is a significant feature. Many list administrators would like to have error mail automatically processed for them -- doing it by hand is not a fun task. If that means the computer has to do more work, so be it, better the computer's time than mine. John john@shelby.com, Shelby Group Ltd., http://www.shelby.com/ From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 20:54:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA04455 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 20:51:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA04448 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 20:51:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6047 invoked by uid 305); 29 Nov 1996 04:51:45 -0000 To: "John Buckman" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lyris References: <199611281627.QAA13611@synergy.transbay.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <6036.849243102.1@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 23:51:42 -0500 Message-ID: <6038.849243102@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> From: Paul Graham Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk since there are sensible ways to deal with this problem your cavalier attitude toward people who deal with a large volume of mail suggests that your company is interested in serving a specific market. listserv has a (deprecated) option that will rewrite the To: line. it's (sensibly) user or list owner controlled and not the default. i'm sure there are other MLM's out there that do foolish things. i'm also sure they're in the minority both in number and subscribers. -------- In reply to: The main reason we rewrite the To: is that people often have multiple email addresses, with forwarding instructions so that email goes to different places it was originally sent. In such a case, the recipient of list-generated email message doesn't know what email address is registered at the list server. --------------------- -- paul pjg@acsu.Buffalo.EDU |public keys at: pjg@ubvm | http://urth.acsu.Buffalo.EDU/~pjg/key.html if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 28 21:26:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA04880 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 21:10:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA04873 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 21:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6360 invoked by uid 305); 29 Nov 1996 05:10:03 -0000 To: Vicki Richman cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lyris References: <199611290100.UAA08399@panix2.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <6349.849244201.1@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 00:10:01 -0500 Message-ID: <6351.849244201@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> From: Paul Graham Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk this assertion isn't true. your experience with tcsh+sendmail is due entirely to sendmail. i send ~500k messages each weekday and each one is an individual delivery. (if you want a drawn out discussion of multiple vs single RCPT commands see the qmail archives.) it turns out that in the real world any place where you might have 100 subscribers (say, aol, msn, compuserv or prodigy) you'll find lots of horsepower (and possibly lots of machines) to accept the mail. my piddly 75 simultaneous smtp connections are lost in the noise at aol's 14 mx hosts. regarding listserv's reply-to behaviour; you describe the default correctly but it allows list, originator, both, none or another specified address. -------- In reply to: There is no way multiple copies can match a single copy to multiple recipients in speed. --------------------- -- paul pjg@acsu.Buffalo.EDU |public keys at: pjg@ubvm | http://urth.acsu.Buffalo.EDU/~pjg/key.html if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 29 01:54:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA17877 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 01:48:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from spinoza.terena.nl ([192.87.30.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id BAA17807 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 01:48:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.209.33.78] (dial-in-spec-05.cent.gla.ac.uk [130.209.33.78]) by spinoza.terena.nl (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA08070; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 10:47:57 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: martin@popper.terena.nl Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199611281627.QAA13611@synergy.transbay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 08:48:39 +0000 To: "John Buckman" From: John Martin Subject: Re: Lyris Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:19 pm +0000 28/11/96, John Buckman wrote: >> Unfortunately, this is a gratuitous rewriting of the original >> poster's message. If I address mail to foo@somewhere.com, I >> expect messages to arrive at the user saying that. If you wish >> to do address detection, put it in a user-defined header. > >The main reason we rewrite the To: is that people often have >multiple email addresses, with forwarding instructions so that email >goes to different places it was originally sent. In such a case, the >recipient of list-generated email message doesn't know what email >address is registered at the list server. I think that you will have problems with this. This is certainly different from the way every other list manager works on the internet (as far as I know them). How are people supposed to filter their different mailing lists? E.g. When people join multiple mailing lists but also have prioritised work to do, it is very common practice to filter the lists into different mail folders which can be perused at will and depending on priority. How can a person sort mail sent to a mailing list from mail sent personally? (Would they need to use different email addresses for each list to enable this?) There have been various attempts to standardize header behaviour of mailing list expanders in the IETF. Whilst the various vendors disagree on specifics of headers, I'm sure they would all agree that the "To:" field needs to give some indication of it being a mailing list posting - otherwise, how is a user to know? If you must rely on this, how about an alternative: "X-Subscribed-As: " or something similar? This would solve your problem and the list manager's and wouldn't break existing practice, nor would it confuse users. ...or at least make it configurable: is this an option? Can you send a complete set of headers for a ficticious posting to the list-manaers list? I'm sure others (i.e. potential customers ;->), would be interested in seeing this too. Regards, John From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 29 04:54:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA22674 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 04:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from marquis.netinc.ca (marquis.netinc.ca [205.211.8.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id EAA22667 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 04:47:32 -0800 (PST) From: srudd@bible.ca Received: from dialup.www.netinc.ca (max1-15.netinc.ca [205.211.8.165]) by marquis.netinc.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA13734 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 06:55:41 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0b34.32.19961129074816.00d8c9f4@bible.ca> X-Sender: srudd@bible.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b34 (32) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 07:48:30 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lyris TO: MUNGING Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings! Chip Rosenthal has written: > To: munging is much worse than Roger implies. It's a > complete abomination. someone had said: >> Do you realize that this basically breaks all incoming mail >> filtering that sorts messages based on recipient headers? I am having difficulty understanding what the problem is here. Eudora and Pegesus mail programs both allow for custom filting of any and all in coming headers. It does not matter where the list name is stored in the header for the filtre to work. John said: >Every approach has its good and bad sides. We're trying to solve >one particular problem with how list servers work. The compromise is >that the To: address is rewritten (and does not say the list name), >but we think the lower request load on the list admin is worth it. What exactly is the "bad side" to doing it this way? ____________________________________________ Steve Rudd 905-575-8437 Fax: 575-8814 srudd@bible.ca LOCAL INSTRUCTOR FOR: The Interactive Bible www.bible.ca From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 29 04:57:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA22692 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 04:48:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id EAA22685 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 04:48:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mne.ifi.uio.no (1232@mne.ifi.uio.no [129.240.70.5]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:48:18 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by mne.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:48:16 +0100 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:48:16 +0100 Message-Id: <199611291248.5718.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: vicric@panix.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199611290100.UAA08399@panix2.panix.com> (message from Vicki Richman on Thu, 28 Nov 1996 20:00:23 -0500 (EST)) Subject: Re: Lyris Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Vicki Richman] | I used the Elm 'g' option for this reply, and Chip, you're getting | two copies. That would annoy me. I did it just to make my point. (. Poor Chip, he's probably still gritting his teeth. .) I think it's a great feature. On large lists, it can take anywhere from 15 minutes to a couple of hours before the primary intended recipient (the person with whom you are discussing) receives his/her copy. That can be a great obstacle to communication, and gives a turnaround more akin to the more considered discourse you find in the Debate pages in a newspaper. For some topics and lists, this may be a boon, though :-) You do know there is software to eliminate duplicate messages on your end? | Ordinarily I would make a note of the list address, hit 'r', then | hopefully remember, before hitting 's', to remove the individual | from the 'To: ' line and to insert the list address in its place. Uh huh. To each her own. [John Buckman] | It's because every message is tagged with a unique identifier | (X-Lyris-MemberID) in the message header so that if the message | bounces, Lyris is able to identify who bounced it by that header. | | This means that Lyris is able to automatically process a higher | percentage of error mail, and understand what caused it, than if | every message were identical. Isn't it time we just stop supporting mail exchangers which do not conform to standards? Hacks like this ought to be unnecessary. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 29 05:57:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA23958 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 05:42:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.mod.uk (relay.mod.uk [192.5.29.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id FAA23926 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 05:42:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.dra.hmg.gb by relay.mod.uk with local SMTP id ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:41:37 +0000 Received: from wandle.dra.hmg.gb by hermes.dra.hmg.gb (MX V4.1 VAX) with SMTP; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:41:23 GMT Received: from rivers.dra.hmg.gb by wandle.dra.hmg.gb with smtp(Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0vTTBL-0007UqC; Fri, 29 Nov 96 13:40 WET X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: "John Buckman" Subject: Re: Lyris Organization: IT Vulnerabilities Group, DRA Malvern, UK References: <199611281627.QAA13611@synergy.transbay.net> In-reply-to: <199611281627.QAA13611@synergy.transbay.net> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:40:42 +0000 Message-ID: <21357.849274842@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199611281627.QAA13611@synergy.transbay.net>, "John Buckman" writes: > By making the To: in each email message be who the message is being > sent to, the recipient is clear what email address the list server > knows them by. Hopefully, the list admin will get a few less > personal requests. He may get less requests about zubscribing/unzubscribing, but he may get a lot more about why he's using broken software that rewrites To: headers and asking him to turn it off. :-) Seriously though, I use one list server that rewrites To: headers on its lists and it is the most annoying thing you can imagine. Especially when it's a low volume list to which you send a general announcement and you get half a dozen queries back about why you mailed them personally about it because it's not immediately apparent it was sent to a list. Sigh. > The Reply-To:, Sender:, and X-Lyris-List: lines in the mail header > all identify the mailing list, and can be read by most mail filtering > programs. Please don't tell me that you're going to force the use of Reply-To: on the people who use this software ? You _are_ aware that there are broken MTAs out there on allegedly mainstream providers such as Compu$serve that break the RFCs and return bounces to the Reply-To: address and not to the envelope sender ? (Unless they've finally fixed this after years of pestering by annoyed folks) -- Christopher Samuel, IT Vulnerabilities Group, chris@rivers.dra.hmg.gb N-115, Defence Research Agency, St Andrews Road, Great Malvern, England, UK DISCLAIMER: I write only for myself, not for DRA. Phone: +44 1684 894644 +MIME+ +PGP+ From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 29 06:39:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA25172 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 06:35:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id GAA25165 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 06:35:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611291435.GAA25165@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <1.63F5D239@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:35:19 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 7527; Fri, 29 Nov 96 15:27:05 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 9160; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:27:05 +0100 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:22:09 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Lyris To: James Cook cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:16:18 -0800 (PST) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:16:18 -0800 (PST) James Cook said: >It would also be helpful to suggest *meaningful* methods of testing or >evaluating *real world* performance of listservers. Simply migrate your largest or most performance sensitive lists to the new server and see how it performs. The problem with test suites is that they generate "lab figures" which tell you very little about the product's actual performance. A real world test requires actually delivering mail to people, so unless you are in the spamming business this can only be done with an existing list :-) Otherwise, I would demand a free 30 day trial copy. As far as I know, and setting aside the spam software outfits, I believe this has become standard practice in the mailing list industry. Eric From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 29 07:40:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA27425 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 07:35:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id HAA27418 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 07:35:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611291535.HAA27418@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <5.BD83CD99@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:35:05 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 7867; Fri, 29 Nov 96 16:28:34 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 9880; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:28:33 +0100 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:29:28 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Lyris To: John Buckman cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:49:30 +7 from John Buckman Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:49:30 +7 John Buckman said: >If I may quote from an L-Soft press release: > >> The total number of subscribers at the site as of September >> 10th, 1996 was over 985,000 (for all 36 lists). Typically, 98% of >> the CNET Digital Dispatch subscribers receive their copy in less >> than 1 1/2 hours. > >If we crunch the numbers on this statement, we get: >985,000 * .98 delivery = 965,300 messages delivered >965,300 messages delivered in 90 minutes = 10,725 messages per minute >10,725 messages per minute = 178 messages per second The exact figures do not affect the point you are trying to make, but just to set the record straight, the claim is that "the CNET Digital Dispatch subscribers" have the quoted delivery times. This is excerpted from a press release that says the CNET Digital dispatch is the first list to break the half million subscriber mark, or something along these lines. As noted there were a total of 985k subscribers spread across 36 lists (now 1.25M and 41), but the delivery times are for the 500k list, ie 90 deliveries per second or 324k/hour. >So, you are making a similar claim. I think we have a misunderstanding here. I have never claimed that very high delivery rates are not possible, or that people who make such claims are necessarily a bunch of crooks. The figures in the press release you refer to do not come from a lab test, but from a real world, production mailing with what I believe is the largest mailing list in the Internet, and thus the most stressing real world test one could design for the software (bounces are processed while the messages are being delivered, yes on the same machine, and I'll let you imagine how many there are). This all ran on a P166. Finally, the figures were provided by the customer, not by L-Soft. The gist of this claim is that if a customer orders the same hardware and software configuration that CNET uses for the Digital Dispatch, this customer can reasonably expect to get the same 90 deliveries per second. In other words, the numbers are for real. >Your rate is 643,500 messages per hour, while we are claiming half that: >300k/hour. I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. L-Soft makes the claims that it makes based on the real world results that its customers get with L-Soft software. I don't see how the existence of a L-Soft claim in the 643k/hour range would make your 300k/hour claim legitimate. Your claims should stand on their own merits, not based on what other vendors have achieved. My point, again, is that your blurb is claiming: "Extremely fast built-in mail engine can deliver hundreds of messages per second" Then when someone on this list challenged your claim, you reported that your best lab figures were 83/sec and your best real world figures were 7/sec. There's quite a big gap here. Normally one doesn't publish performance results until one has actually measured the figures in question. >Lyris is a new product, LISTSERV has been around ages. In the mail >mailing world, Eric has the advantage of years of statistics sending >mail. If you meant "years of experience", I can see your point. But "years of statistics" are totally useless. Given the rate at which the Internet is expanding, the record numbers are always recent. Anyway, with 3000 subscribers you have more than enough traffic to reach delivery rates of at least 50-100/sec. There is no theoretical reason why you cannot achieve a higher speed than 7/sec. Since each of your messages is different and requires a separate SMTP transaction anyway, you can deliver all 3000 in parallel, which is more than enough concurrency to reach VERY HIGH delivery rates. >I don't know of any list server which has these capabilities. If you mean the ability to suppress delivery errors, LISTSERV can do that, although it's not done the same way. You'll understand the problems with your approach soon enough :-) LISTSERV has been able to put the recipient's address in the "To:" field from day one, although most people don't do that, and again you will soon understand why. >A database and a text file are two completely different things, you >simply cannot compare numbers. If the numbers are for a paper for "Data Processing Concepts 101", maybe I can't, because the teacher will think I got it all wrong. But if I'm buying a piece of software that uses a database to perform a very specific function, I can certainly compare numbers. The only thing I care about is how fast the product is at doing the various things I bought it for. I can compare figures like time to read the entire address list, time to add or delete a subscriber, time for a wildcard delete, and so forth. >With a database, I'm able to query the database of subscribers, and >return it in sorted order by domain name (which speeds up mail >sending), by first name, by email address, etc. These are all useful >operations, and that's where a database is handy. If you mean it saves you coding work, you're right. If you mean it increases performance, a custom optimized sort would be faster. >Lyris allows you to set the number of moderated messages per user. >For instance, you can set your list up so that new members to a list >need to have their first posting to the list approved by the >moderator. Once that message is approved, that person is free to >post. This doesn't require a database, just support for per-subscriber attributes. This can be done with a text file, see ListProc. >Another use: if a member is not behaving themselves, you target them for >moderating, and say that the next 5 postings from them need to be >approved (but noone else on the lists needs approval). Same. Note that I don't have any problem with your decision to use a database for your subscriber list. You're free to design as you wish. I was just commenting that "3000 subscribers loaded in less than a second" is totally unimpressive. "Thousands of transactions per second" certainly sounds more impressive, but that is because it suggests thousands of mailing list management operations per second, not thousands of internal database operations per second. Eric From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 29 07:55:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA27804 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 07:48:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id HAA27795 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 07:48:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611291548.HAA27795@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <3.8CA16E14@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:48:02 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 7902; Fri, 29 Nov 96 16:41:30 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 9948; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:41:28 +0100 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:37:03 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Lyris To: "Roger B.A. Klorese" , John Buckman cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:26:26 +7 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:26:26 +7 John Buckman said: >The main reason we rewrite the To: is that people often have multiple >email addresses, with forwarding instructions so that email goes to >different places it was originally sent. In such a case, the recipient >of list-generated email message doesn't know what email address is >registered at the list server. That's the wrong solution then. Sendmail and many other mail programs routinely rewrite 'To:' fields, so there is no guarantee that the address the user sees when he actually gets the message is the address Lyris put in that field. Eric From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 29 08:11:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA28150 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 07:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id HAA28143 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 07:59:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.8.2/8.8.2/lokkur-1.1-scs) id KAA00672; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 10:57:21 -0500 (EST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: Lyris Date: 29 Nov 1996 10:57:21 -0500 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 13 Distribution: local Message-ID: <57n151$kt@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <199611281051.KAA12763@synergy.transbay.net> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "John Buckman" writes: >The To: address of every message is always the recipient's email >address, not the list name. This makes it simple for the recipient >to determine what email address they are subscribed with. ACK! This is really a *bad* idea. Incredibly bad. It will break every auto-processing mail system out there. Without exception. It's an incredibly, incredibly bad idea. -- ``I tell you, we are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different.'' Kurt Vonnegut, quoted in Harpers (11-95) From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 29 08:15:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA28107 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 07:57:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id HAA28092 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 07:57:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611291557.HAA28092@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <3.E33BD529@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:57:37 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 7926; Fri, 29 Nov 96 16:51:06 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 9998; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:51:06 +0100 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:48:11 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Lyris To: Jeff Wasilko , John Buckman cc: Chip Rosenthal , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:37:19 +7 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:37:19 +7 John Buckman said: >> This is an aspect I hadn't considered fully...I use bulk_mailer for >> delivery to sort the recipient list by domain, allowing, say, all >> messages destined for AOL or Netcom to be sent off in one SMTP >> transaction. For my moderate sized lists it's a big win, and I'd have >> to say it'd be a HUGE win for large lists where you're likely to have >> multiple subscribers at each domain. > >Lyris does the same thing. Messages to the same domain are grouped >together and sent in many fewer SMTP sessions. But it doesn't offer any speed-up, since you need to resend the entire message data every time, ie MAIL FROM, RCPT, DATA, MAIL, RCPT, DATA and so forth. It also means Lyris will require significantly more bandwidth than competing products. Eric From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 29 09:10:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA29741 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:01:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.mod.uk (relay.mod.uk [192.5.29.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA29734 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:00:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.dra.hmg.gb by relay.mod.uk with local SMTP id ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 17:00:36 +0000 Received: from wandle.dra.hmg.gb by hermes.dra.hmg.gb (MX V4.1 VAX) with SMTP; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 17:00:33 GMT Received: from rivers.dra.hmg.gb by wandle.dra.hmg.gb with smtp(Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0vTWIA-0007UqC; Fri, 29 Nov 96 16:59 WET X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Lyris Organization: IT Vulnerabilities Group, DRA Malvern, UK References: <199611281051.KAA12763@synergy.transbay.net> <57n151$kt@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> In-reply-to: <57n151$kt@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:59:57 +0000 Message-ID: <11233.849286797@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <57n151$kt@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>, scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) writes: [about To: rewriting] > ACK! This is really a *bad* idea. Incredibly bad. It will break > every auto-processing mail system out there. Without exception. Eh ? That's simply not true, it may break systems that rely on the To: header, but that's about it. Most decent auto-processing systems will look at other headers, all my list refiling stuff works on the envelope sender which is a fairly good guide at where things have come from. :-) > It's an incredibly, incredibly bad idea. I'll agree with that. cheers! Chris -- Christopher Samuel, IT Vulnerabilities Group, chris@rivers.dra.hmg.gb N-115, Defence Research Agency, St Andrews Road, Great Malvern, England, UK DISCLAIMER: I write only for myself, not for DRA. Phone: +44 1684 894644 +MIME+ +PGP+ From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 29 12:39:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA04393 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:32:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA04386 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:32:12 -0800 (PST) From: VKN@aol.com Received: by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA05117 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:32:04 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:32:04 -0500 Message-ID: <961129153204_2015803167@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Can You Help Me Figure.... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Where Does This Come From? Subj: No Subject Date: Fri, Nov 29, 1996 2:32 PM CDT From: interchange@infobro.com X-From: ginny@shore.net (Ginny Warn) Sender: interchange-request@infobro.com Resent-from: interchange@infobro.com To: InterCHANGE@interchange.org unsubscribe ginny@shore.net InterCHANGE@interchange.org Ginny Warn voice: 508-256-3985 40 Cottage Street email: ginny@shore.net Wellesley, MA 02181 "In the emerging culture of simulation, the computer is still a tool but less like a hammer and more like a harpsichord." Sherry Turkle, LIFE ON THE SCREEN ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >From Fri Nov 29 14:31:16 1996 Received: from infobro.com (ns.infobro.com [204.255.254.70]) by emin18.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA27295; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:31:14 -0500 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:31:14 -0500 Received: from gilligan.worldweb.net (204.117.218.2) by black.infobro.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:30:46 -0500 Received: from relay1.shore.net (root@relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by gilligan.worldweb.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA14052 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:42:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from northshore.shore.net (root@shell1.shore.net [192.233.85.1]) by relay1.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA08862 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:42:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.243.160.85] (pm21-85.bstnma.shore.net [206.243.160.85]) by northshore.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA06092 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:42:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:42:36 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ginny@shell1.shore.net Message-Id: <00813686010210041951@[206.243.160.85]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: InterCHANGE@interchange.org From: ginny@shore.net (Ginny Warn) Sender: interchange-request@infobro.com Resent-Message-Id: Resent-From: X-Unsub: To leave, send text 'LEAVE' to __________________________ Subj: unsubcribe Date: Fri, Nov 29, 1996 2:48 PM CDT From: ncaesar@mail.utexas.edu X-From: ncaesar@mail.utexas.edu (Neil D. Caesar) Sender: interchange-request@infobro.com Resent-from: interchange@infobro.com Reply-to: ncaesar@mail.utexas.edu To: interchange@infobro.com unsubcribe ncaesar@mail.utexas.edu immediately thank you ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >From Fri Nov 29 14:47:59 1996 Received: from infobro.com (ns.infobro.com [204.255.254.70]) by emin23.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA07993; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:47:15 -0500 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:47:15 -0500 Received: from andrew.cais.com (199.0.216.215) by infobro.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:34:48 -0500 Received: from smtp.utexas.edu (smtp.utexas.edu [128.83.126.2]) by andrew.cais.com (8.6.9/8.6.9-cais) with SMTP id NAA03655 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:48:06 -0500 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 0); 29 Nov 1996 18:48:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO UT.cc.utexas.edu) (128.83.249.89) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 29 Nov 1996 18:48:01 -0000 Message-ID: <329F2E9D.39B0@mail.utexas.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:42:37 -0600 From: "Neil D. Caesar" Reply-To: ncaesar@mail.utexas.edu Organization: University of Texas at Austin, MBA Class of 1998 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: interchange@infobro.com Subject: unsubcribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: interchange-request@infobro.com Resent-Message-Id: Resent-From: X-Unsub: To leave, send text 'LEAVE' to _________________________ Subj: Unsubscribe Date: Fri, Nov 29, 1996 2:37 PM CDT From: rainey@aloha.com X-From: rainey@aloha.com (George Rainey) Sender: interchange-request@infobro.com Resent-from: interchange@infobro.com Reply-to: rainey@aloha.com (George Rainey) To: InterCHANGE@interchange.org UNSUBSCRIBE @ InterCHANGE.InterCHANGE.org CCm ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >From Fri Nov 29 14:36:33 1996 Received: from infobro.com (ns.infobro.com [204.255.254.70]) by emin03.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA12855; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:35:52 -0500 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:35:52 -0500 Received: from gilligan.worldweb.net (204.117.218.2) by black.infobro.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:32:42 -0500 Received: from aloha.com (rainey@mango.aloha.com [206.126.0.1]) by gilligan.worldweb.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA13349 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:06:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (rainey@localhost) by aloha.com (8.8.3/8.6.5) with SMTP id HAA20511 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 07:06:19 -1000 (HST) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 07:06:18 -1000 (HST) From: George Rainey Reply-To: George Rainey To: InterCHANGE@interchange.org Subject: Unsubscribe Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: interchange-request@infobro.com Resent-Message-Id: Resent-From: X-Unsub: To leave, send text 'LEAVE' to From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 29 19:40:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA13662 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:29:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA13655; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:29:12 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199611270840.AAA04490@miles.greatcircle.com> References: Message of Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:58:55 -0500 (EST) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:30:12 -0800 To: Eric Thomas From: Brent Chapman Subject: Re: LSOFT's Listserv vs. LYRIS Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:18 AM +0100 11/27/96, Eric Thomas wrote: >On Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:58:55 -0500 (EST) Merrill Cook >said: > >>The pricing I've seen suggests that they want to make money selling a >>few copies. If they wanted to sell lots they wouldn't be charging so >>much. > >LISTSERV Lite goes for $500-2000 OTC (corporate), with a free edition for >non commercial use. > >It isn't possible to sell "lots" of copies of a mailing list manager, at >least not in the meaning normally associated with PC software. There are >thousands of copies of the freebies in use, not millions, not hundreds of >thousands, not even tens of thousands. Actually, I think the number is up into the tens of thousands by now. There have been about 1500 registered installations of Majordomo 1.94 since it was released a little over a month ago. I think we can safely extrapolate that into "tens of thousands", when you consider all the 1.94 installations that weren't registered, all the sites running older versions of Majordomo which didn't have a registration process, and all the sites running something else entirely. Your general point is still valid, though: there's no money to be made on a total installed base of 10,000 units if you want to follow a PC market model. -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 29 19:56:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA14319 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:41:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA14311; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:41:02 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199611282314.PAA09944@server.postmodern.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:42:02 -0800 To: "John Buckman" From: Brent Chapman Subject: Re: Lyris Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk John Buckman wrote: >The To: address of every message is always the recipient's email >address, not the list name. This makes it simple for the recipient >to determine what email address they are subscribed with. Huh? No it doesn't; not after all the intervening mailers (Sendmail, SMail, etc.) between the list server and the recipient have had their way with the "To:" line of the message... If you want to tell the user what address they're subscribed with, you've got to do it somewhere that the intervening mail systems won't notice, like a non-standard header or somewhere in the body. -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 30 02:25:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA24051 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 01:58:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolis.com (bolis.com [204.153.195.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id BAA24044 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 01:58:35 -0800 (PST) Received: Received: from hock.bolis.com (root@hock.bolis.com [199.165.142.10]) by bolis.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA24186 ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 01:57:54 -0800 Received: from amillar.bolis.com by hock.bolis.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0vTmBG-000G0KC; Sat, 30 Nov 96 01:57 PST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Alan Millar" Organization: The Bolis Group To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 01:57:50 -800 Subject: Re: Lyris TO: MUNGING X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: srudd@bible.ca > >> Do you realize that this basically breaks all incoming mail > >> filtering that sorts messages based on recipient headers? > > I am having difficulty understanding what the problem is here. Eudora and > Pegesus mail programs both allow for custom filting of any and all in > coming headers. It does not matter where the list name is stored in the > header for the filtre to work. Not everyone is using Eudora and Pegasus (duh), and not everyone has the choice of what mail program they use. Various PC mail gateways will map the To: and From: fields into their own internal headers, and even offer filtering based on these, but not on arbitrary rfc822 headers. You may not care about accomodating these users, but the fact is that many list owners do wish to accomodate them. I would still want list management software that has the least impact on the most members. - Alan ---- Alan Millar amillar@bolis.com Owner, System Admin http://www.bolis.com Ask me about Internet mailing list services at Bolis.com You gonna eat that? You gonna eat that? You gonna eat that? I'll eat that. - Dog poetry From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 30 04:54:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA28328 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 04:40:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.dircon.co.uk (mail2.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id EAA28321 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 04:40:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from diversity.org.uk (diversity.org.uk [194.112.46.199]) by mail2.dircon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA00814 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:38:57 GMT From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: Bulk emailing quote request (fwd) Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:30:09 GMT Message-ID: References: <01IC410Z2P3KAEKUGD@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article <01IC410Z2P3KAEKUGD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>, E. Allen Smith wrote: >I just found the following offer in my junk mailbox. >Does anyone know more about Ajax Communications and their >"respectable client" and what's the best reaction to this crap? A followup to this; it appears that Ajax is some sort of marketing organisation. I rang them up in my capacity as a writer for on of the UK's largest PC magazines and asked why they thought it would be a good idea to do something so anti-social. The response was that one of their clients had asked them to find out about it. They have had so much adverse comment that they will not be pursuing it, and it's not an option that the would advise any of their clients to contemplate in future. If they do, they will certainly find themselves in print ... Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 30 08:09:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA02769 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:01:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA02762 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:00:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA02982 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:03:05 -0600 Message-Id: <199611301603.KAA02982@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Lyris TO: MUNGING To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:03:05 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan Millar said... | |You may not care about accomodating these users, but the fact is |that many list owners do wish to accomodate them. I would still want |list management software that has the least impact on the most |members. I think the same principle applies here that applies to government. List software should try to do what it has to do, no more or less, and do no harm while about it. As soon as you start thinking you have all the answers, that you know what everyone is like or *should* be like, and trying to make things the way you want them, things are hosed. -Miles From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 30 09:10:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA03783 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:57:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA03766 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:57:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (oliver@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.8.2/8.7/PanixU1.3) with SMTP id LAA07955; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:57:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:57:17 -0500 (EST) From: Oliver Garfield To: "Miles O'Neal" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lyris TO: MUNGING In-Reply-To: <199611301603.KAA02982@wildride.schoneal.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk what is munging? *********************************************************************** *Oliver Garfield email: oliver@panix.com * *World Health Foundation phone: 212-877-4230 * *125 Riverside Drive * *New York, NY 10024 * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 30 10:26:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA05351 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from garcon.unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA05329 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:13:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chip@localhost) by garcon.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA09800; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:12:58 -0600 (CST) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199611301812.MAA09800@garcon.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Lyris TO: MUNGING To: oliver@panix.com (Oliver Garfield) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:12:57 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Oliver Garfield" at Nov 30, 1996 11:57:17 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a10] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Oliver Garfield writes: > what is munging? In the rant, I link to the Jargon File at for the definition: munge /muhnj/ /vt./ 1. [derogatory] To imperfectly transform information. 2. A comprehensive rewrite of a routine, data structure or the whole program. 3. To modify data in some way the speaker doesn't need to go into right now or cannot describe succinctly (compare mumble). This term is often confused with mung, which probably was derived from it. However, it also appears the word `munge' was in common use in Scotland in the 1940s, and in Yorkshire in the 1950s, as a verb, meaning to munch up into a masticated mess, and as a noun, meaning the result of munging something up (the parallel with the kluge/kludge pair is amusing). -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development * URL: http://www.unicom.com/ * 4868D8BE10C86BDE 6017000BA783998E Helmet good. Law bad. From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 30 16:09:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA14817 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:56:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA14807 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:56:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from 207.33.130.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [207.33.130.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) with SMTP id PAA16559; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:55:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32A0C9AE.350C@postmodern.com> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:58:20 -0800 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Lyris References: <199611281627.QAA13611@synergy.transbay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rather than try to go through a point-by-point rebuttal of John Buckman's lengthy attempt at an explanation of Lyris's nonstandard header-munging (and SMTP behaviour), and since Mr. Buckman neatly sidestepped my question as to whether the To:-line rewriting in Lyris was or was not configurable on a per-list basis, I think the situation can be summarized very neatly: Either Lyris allows site admins and list managers to precisely configure the presence/absence of particular headers and their contents, or else it's a $5000 white elephant, and will most likely end up being thought of in the same light as all the other losing "solutions" out there. (What comes to mind are the myriad "Internet mail gateway" products that purport to route Internet mail in and out of proprietary corporate mail packages and end up simply butchering the messages and their headers. I think practically all the members of this list know what I'm talking about.) A procrustean list server that requires both list managers and list readers to change the way that they have been doing things (like requiring that a Reply-To: header pointing to the list be present, or breaking filtering based on the "To:/Cc:" lines) is simply doomed to failure. It really looks like a case of a bunch of software designers and programmers who are so in love with their clever hacks that they didn't bother trying to understand how and why the conventions of Internet list management have grown up over the years. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 30 20:24:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA21536 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 20:09:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.64.112]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA21529 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 20:09:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612010409.UAA21529@miles.greatcircle.com> To: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com, rogerk@QueerNet.ORG cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 23:08:51 EST Subject: Re: Re[4]: Lyris Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > from the quill of "Roger B.A. Klorese" on scroll > <3.0.1.32.19961127214640.026f3448@pop.queernet.org> > > Whether or not you agree with it, the logic is: you are LICENSING (not > > purchasing) tools for the accomplishment of benefit to you. The > > licensor has the right to derive more benefit when the licensor does. > > Because I bought a bigger machine (had to pay for the extra resource), > capable of doing more/bigger lists that somehow reflects on how much more > the software has delivered me. The software is doing exaclty what it was > when I had 3 lists, my hardware just got bigger and able to handle more > lists/users. > > b. Scaling up isn't always simply a matter of purchasing more powerful hardware. Sometimes improved algorithms are needed. And I don't think it makes sense to expect a software developer to implement two versions of a product just so a less functional one can be sold for less. From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 30 22:09:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA23540 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 21:54:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from itw.com (rsk.itw.com [206.138.122.70]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA23533 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 21:54:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by itw.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) id AAA17966 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sun, 1 Dec 1996 00:55:14 -0500 (EST) From: Rich Kulawiec Message-Id: <199612010555.AAA17966@itw.com> Subject: Re: Lyris To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 00:55:12 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199611282314.PAA09944@server.postmodern.com> from "Michael C. Berch" at Nov 28, 1996 03:14:25 PM Reply-To: rsk@itw.com Organization: Ditka Diplomatic Studies Institute X-Last-River: Lehigh, PA X-Last-CD: Duncan Sheik, "Duncan Sheik" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk John Buckman wrote: >The To: address of every message is always the recipient's email >address, not the list name. This makes it simple for the recipient >to determine what email address they are subscribed with. And no matter what else this product does, that single statement just eliminated it from my consideration, as well as the consideration of every company I consult to. This is not acceptable. There is *no way* you should munge the headers unless you have an awfully good reason, unless you fully understand the exact consequences thereof, unless you know exactly what you're doing, and unless you have no other way of solving a problem. And even then you shouldn't do it. Rich Kulawiec rsk@itw.com From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 30 22:41:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA24371 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 22:31:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA24364 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 22:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id AAA06192 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Dec 1996 00:33:20 -0600 Message-Id: <199612010633.AAA06192@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: FREE BULK EMAIL SOFTWARE!!! (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 00:33:20 -0600 (CST) From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [This one takes the cake. I have no idea why they think I looked into a bulk mailer, or if that's just there schtick... And talk about bogus To: lines (there is no such list at pencom.com, of course)... And these things are so educational. For instance, all this time I thought I knew what a flame (or Flame) was, but it's just a list of people who don't want bulk email! Speaking as an Entepreneur, I can only hope this guy ends up in the wrong (or right) spot when a flying saucer misdelivers interplanetary bulk mail with free antimatter samples in it. Anyway, I glanced through the feature list, and it kind of reminded me of Lyris. (Sorry if that offends the Lyris folks!) -Miles] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sftware@ix.netcom.com To: Entrepreneurs@pencom.com Dear Entrepreneur, We are sending you this email to give you the opportunity to receive your very own bulk emailer absolutely FREE!!! You have recently responded to an ad to demo a bulk emailer but then came to find out that you had to spend $399-$499 to purchase this software. Well, we know that an entrepreneur like yourself is trying to make money NOT spend money so we are going to give you the opportuniy to receive a copy of our bulk e- mail software FREE and your only cost is $9.95 shipping and handling. We do need to request this to cover our cost. Our company is in the business of developing the most cutting edge software on the market today. 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