From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 2 19:17:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id TAA25018 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 1997 19:03:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from shore.shore.net (shore.shore.net [192.233.85.136]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA24986 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 1997 19:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from jane.smoe.org (jeffw@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by shore.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id WAA05437 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 1997 22:01:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA07384; Sun, 2 Mar 1997 22:01:32 -0500 Message-ID: <19970302220131.PM53746@smoe.org> Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 22:01:31 -0500 From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: human contact for AOL? X-Mailer: Mutt 0.59.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can anyone reccomend a human contact at AOL? I've been having problems with an AOL subscriber abusing one of my mailing lists (including sending harrassing email directly to subscribers). I've sent mail to abuse@aol.com but never heard back. I'm now going to remove that subscriber from the list and ban him, but given the ease of creating screen names, I expect to have more problems when he realizes that he's been removed and I'd like to be able to get more from AOL than the email equivilent of a blank stare... Jeff From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 3 07:19:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id HAA01940 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 07:14:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from grinch.whoville.leftbank.com (grinch.leftbank.com [139.167.128.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA01754 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 07:13:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from zax.whoville.leftbank.com by grinch.whoville.leftbank.com via smtpd (for miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) with SMTP; 3 Mar 1997 15:11:31 UT Received: (from nmehl@localhost) by zax.leftbank.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/LeftBank-1.1/http://www.leftbank.com/) id KAA16258; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:11:36 -0500 (EST) From: "Nathan J. Mehl" Message-Id: <199703031511.KAA16258@zax.leftbank.com> Subject: Re: human contact for AOL? To: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:11:35 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <19970302220131.PM53746@smoe.org> from "Jeff Wasilko" at Mar 2, 97 10:01:31 pm X-Abby-Says: Nathan, you keep getting to be the first person who does things to me X-My-Minions: Took over Arisia X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of Jeff Wasilko: > Can anyone reccomend a human contact at AOL? I've been having > problems with an AOL subscriber abusing one of my mailing lists > (including sending harrassing email directly to subscribers). > I've sent mail to abuse@aol.com but never heard back. It's rare for mail to abuse@aol.com to not even be acknowledged. If you're 100% sure that your complaints to that address didn't produce even a form-letter response, you should send a short, concise and polite note to David O'Donnell, pmdatropos@aol.com. David is AOL's administrative contact, so you can imagine his mail load. Keep it to the point and don't expect an immediate response, or even necessarily one from him. -n -- Don't blame me -- I voted for the Unabomber! Nathan J. Mehl -- The Left Bank Operation (work) nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com (play) memory@blank.org -- http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nmehl/ From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 3 07:32:25 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id HAA02673 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 07:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pine.liii.com (pine.liii.com [198.207.193.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA02511; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 07:17:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from rowan.liii.com by pine.liii.com with SMTP (5.67b/15Feb94-Long Island Information) id AA21820; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:16:17 -0500 Received: from localhost (denic@localhost) by rowan.liii.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA05412; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:16:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rowan.liii.com: denic owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:16:15 -0500 (EST) From: "Dennis N. Aruta" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V6 #47 In-Reply-To: <199703030900.BAA24842@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk D.N.Aruta, Owner International Commerce List, IC-L#0000 http://www.liii.com/~denic (LIVE chat)--->irc.liii.com irc.liii.fef.net /join #denic Mailing address: Denar Chartering Inc.(since 1969) Phone: 516-326-2300 P.O. Box 1147, Denar House Fax: 516-326-2519 New Hyde Park N.Y. 11040 Tlx: 4971419 U.S.A. email: Denic@liii.com On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, List-Managers-Digest wrote: > Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 01:00:24 -0800 (PST) > From: List-Managers-Digest > Reply-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM > To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM > Subject: List-Managers-Digest V6 #47 > > > List-Managers-Digest Monday, March 3 1997 Volume 06 : Number 047 > > > > In this issue: > > human contact for AOL? > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the List-Managers > or List-Managers-Digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 22:01:31 -0500 > From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) > Subject: human contact for AOL? > > Can anyone reccomend a human contact at AOL? I've been having > problems with an AOL subscriber abusing one of my mailing lists > (including sending harrassing email directly to subscribers). > > I've sent mail to abuse@aol.com but never heard back. > > I'm now going to remove that subscriber from the list and ban > him, but given the ease of creating screen names, I expect to > have more problems when he realizes that he's been removed and > I'd like to be able to get more from AOL than the email > equivilent of a blank stare... > > Jeff > > ------------------------------ Jeff, if you wish to discuss, I have had the same problems. From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 3 22:38:50 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id VAA17362 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 21:57:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA17199 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 21:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.246] (shiva1-mclean-246.his.com [205.252.121.246]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA02252; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:55:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199703031511.KAA16258@zax.leftbank.com> References: <19970302220131.PM53746@smoe.org> from "Jeff Wasilko" at Mar 2, 97 10:01:31 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:43:12 -0500 To: "Nathan J. Mehl" , jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: human contact for AOL? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:11 AM -0500 3/3/1997, Nathan J. Mehl wrote: >If you're 100% sure that your complaints to that address didn't >produce even a form-letter response, you should send a short, >concise and polite note to David O'Donnell, pmdatropos@aol.com. David is away from the office for a little while, so even if you send him email at this address, it will result in an automated form-letter response, and may or may not be delayed in having a real human look at it until he gets back. I've sent copies of the original posting to addresses of several people who work for David, and since I don't know which of them might be the ultimate right person, I'll just leave it at that. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 3 22:44:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id VAA17307 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 21:57:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA17203 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 21:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.246] (shiva1-mclean-246.his.com [205.252.121.246]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA02192; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:55:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19970302220131.PM53746@smoe.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:37:23 -0500 To: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: human contact for AOL? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:01 PM -0500 3/2/1997, Jeff Wasilko wrote: >Can anyone reccomend a human contact at AOL? I've been having >problems with an AOL subscriber abusing one of my mailing lists >(including sending harrassing email directly to subscribers). > >I've sent mail to abuse@aol.com but never heard back. That's the correct email address. >I'm now going to remove that subscriber from the list and ban >him, but given the ease of creating screen names, I expect to >have more problems when he realizes that he's been removed and >I'd like to be able to get more from AOL than the email >equivilent of a blank stare... All other email addresses I would give you would point back to that same server and the same procmail filters to generate the auto-replies and to auto-sort the mail into separate mailboxes. I'll forward a copy of your note directly to some of the Postmaster folks. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 4 08:33:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id IAA05657 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sparkie.gnofn.org (sparkie.gnofn.org [206.27.168.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA05589 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:03:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from sparkie.gnofn.org (sparkie.gnofn.org [206.27.168.35]) by sparkie.gnofn.org (8.7.Beta.10/8.7.Beta.10) with SMTP id KAA26513 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:01:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:01:41 -0600 (CST) From: "Your friend at:" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Moderator information request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi! I would like to introduce myself. I was born 12/17/57 in New Orleans, Louisiana and still live near New Orleans. I am developing a community service organization. You can check our website at (http://www.gnofn.org/~oxoasis). Thank you for your patience and if I can be of any assistance, please let me know. This organization wants the homeless and those in need to have the facility to maintain their bodily needs so that they are free to take time for spiritual advancement. We wish to do this through cruelty-free methods. We promote all forms of natural living in food relief, community gardening, arts&crafts, sustainable agriculture, child protection and animal protection. You are welcome to join our mailing list ox-oasis by sending the message (subscribe ox-oasis) to (Majordomo@igc.apc.org). I use only dos, not windows and have had the hardest time trying to figure out how to moderate our nonprofit mailing list. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. There are people in great need of our assistance. Sincerely, Christopher J. Flores <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> "By thus engaging in devotional service to the Lord, great sages or devotees free themselves from the results of work in the material world. In this way they become free from the cycle of birth and death and attain the state beyond all miseries (by going back to Godhead)." (Bhagavad Gita 2.51) From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 4 10:18:47 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id KAA22761 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from prawn.fishy.net (flounder.fishy.net [206.156.56.34]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA22676 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from sturgeon.fishy.net (sturgeon.fishy.net [172.16.1.3]) by prawn.fishy.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA57050; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:10:49 -0500 Received: (from bonnie@localhost) by sturgeon.fishy.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA42750; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:10:52 -0500 From: Bonnie Scott Message-Id: <199703041810.NAA42750@sturgeon.fishy.net> Subject: Re: Moderator information request To: cjf01@gnofn.org (Your friend at:) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:10:52 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Your friend at:" at Mar 4, 97 10:01:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Prodigy, Inc. runs a Majordomo mailing list server. We have an application form at http://goodstuff.prodigy.com/Lists/application.htm that you can fill out if you are looking for a host server. We select lists based on their appeal to Prodigy members, and for their fit with our online communities--it looks like yours would have a good chance (I don't make the final decision personally). Sincerely, Bonnie Scott Prodigy, Inc. > Hi! > > I would like to introduce myself. I was born 12/17/57 in New > Orleans, Louisiana and still live near New Orleans. I am developing a > community service organization. You can check our website at > (http://www.gnofn.org/~oxoasis). Thank you for your patience and if I can > be of any assistance, please let me know. > > This organization wants the homeless and those in need to have the > facility to maintain their bodily needs so that they are free to take time > for spiritual advancement. We wish to do this through cruelty-free > methods. We promote all forms of natural living in food relief, community > gardening, arts&crafts, sustainable agriculture, child protection and > animal protection. You are welcome to join our mailing list ox-oasis by > sending the message (subscribe ox-oasis) to (Majordomo@igc.apc.org). > > I use only dos, not windows and have had the hardest time trying > to figure out how to moderate our nonprofit mailing list. Any suggestions > would be greatly appreciated. There are people in great need of our > assistance. > > Sincerely, > > Christopher J. Flores From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 4 13:50:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id NAA16078 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:10:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA15983 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:09:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA03033; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:04:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970304130949.00d8c214@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 13:18:00 -0800 To: Bonnie Scott From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Moderator information request Cc: cjf01@gnofn.org (Your friend at:), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:10 PM 3/4/97 -0500, Bonnie Scott wrote: >Prodigy, Inc. runs a Majordomo mailing list server. We have an application >form at: [...] Nothing personal against Bonnie, but maybe replies that are more akin to "advertising" could be done in private email? I know that several other people on the list (including myself) are willing to provide servers for lists, but I'm not sure if I want to see the list-managers list turn into a free-for-all with offers of list hosting. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Enter the Virtual Dog Show! www.dogshow.com From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 5 10:34:02 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id JAA09885 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:52:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA09785 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:51:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA23108; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 11:49:56 -0600 (CST) To: Kynn Bartlett Cc: Bonnie Scott , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Moderator information request References: <3.0.32.19970304130949.00d8c214@mail.idyllmtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 05 Mar 1997 11:49:55 -0600 In-Reply-To: Kynn Bartlett's message of Tue, 04 Mar 1997 13:18:00 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 21 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.16/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "KB" == Kynn Bartlett writes: KB> Nothing personal against Bonnie, but maybe replies that are more akin KB> to "advertising" could be done in private email? Actually, I'm happy to have that information. If Prodigy were selling their list hosting services then I'd object, but they are providing a useful service which I for one did not know about until Bonnie's message. KB> I know that several other people on the list (including myself) are KB> willing to provide servers for lists, but I'm not sure if I want to see KB> the list-managers list turn into a free-for-all with offers of list KB> hosting. It would truly be wonderful if a potential list generated such enthusiasm. If such a flood of offer messages is expected, perhaps someone should write up a FAQ about this listing contacts for free hosting services. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 6 08:19:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id IAA20835 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (grolsch.cs.ubc.ca [142.103.6.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA20684 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs.ubc.ca (uucp@news.cs.ubc.ca [142.103.6.2]) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA24953 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:11:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cs.ubc.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) id IAA24518 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:11:23 -0800 (PST) >Received: from mornir.gweep.bc.ca by edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca (Sendmail 8.7.5) with SMTP id HAA25465; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 07:44:52 -0800 Received: from cs.ubc.ca by nnrp.cs.ubc.ca; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:11 PST Received: from mornir.gweep.bc.ca by edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca (Sendmail 8.7.5) with SMTP id HAA25465; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 07:44:52 -0800 Received: (qmail 3669 invoked by uid 1180); 6 Mar 1997 15:44:39 -0000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Moderator information request X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.0 #2 Fri Oct 11 18:52:27 PDT 1996 X-Geek: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/doc/geek.html X-Homepage: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds X-PGP-Ox6E86B769: This key is obsolete, please discard it. X-PGP-Ox979D0B09: A9 3E 1E CB 86 09 B1 E9 3C 1A 0E F6 49 F9 5D 99 Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.92) From: edmonds@cs.ubc.ca (Brian Edmonds) Date: 06 Mar 1997 07:44:39 -0800 In-Reply-To: Jason L Tibbitts III's message of 05 Mar 1997 11:49:55 -0600 Message-ID: <374tep10uw.fsf@mornir.gweep.bc.ca> Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.2.40/XEmacs 19.14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jason L Tibbitts writes: > If such a flood of offer messages is expected, perhaps someone should > write up a FAQ about this listing contacts for free hosting services. My ml-providers list already has such a section, but the only for-free service (besides LISTSERV) pulled out some months back due to lack of time. I've sent Bonnie a note soliciting an entry from Prodigy, but have not heard back yet. Feel free to point any serious providers my way -- I try to avoid the "I run Linux on my home machine and can do lists over my dialup connection" as that's how I run my own lists, and I know how unstable it is. Brian. From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 6 23:19:27 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id WAA25791 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from the-great-machine.mit.edu (THE-GREAT-MACHINE.MIT.EDU [18.238.0.254]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA25717 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:52:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jered@localhost) by the-great-machine.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA11656 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 01:51:13 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 01:51:13 -0500 From: Jered J Floyd Message-Id: <199703070651.BAA11656@the-great-machine.mit.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Delivering to large mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Fellow list managers, I have just brought a very large mailing list (~10000 subscribers, cwd@vorlon.mit.edu, Brock Meeks' CyberWire Digest) into production here, and am unsatisifed with sendmail's delivery speed. My main problem is that sendmail only uses one process per message to deliver mail, which I find to be suboptimal for a list of this size. One option I have would be to use qmail, but I would prefer not to do that for several reasons. One solution that has been suggested to me is to use a helper program called bulk_mailer.pl, which breaks large lists into 'bite-sized chunks' for sendmail to deliver. Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate this tool. Is anyone familiar with it, and knows where it can be found? Thanks. --Jered Floyd jered@mit.edu majordomo-owner@vorlon.mit.edu From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 7 11:05:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id LAA14738 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:00:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from rintintin.sierra.com (rintintin.sierra.com [199.238.230.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA14678 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (philip@localhost) by rintintin.sierra.com (8.7.6/8.7.3-jmm-p) with SMTP id KAA07498; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:57:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:57:51 -0800 (PST) From: Philip Hallstrom X-Sender: philip@rintintin To: Jered J Floyd cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Delivering to large mailing lists In-Reply-To: <199703070651.BAA11656@the-great-machine.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > One solution that has been suggested to me is to use a helper program > called bulk_mailer.pl, which breaks large lists into 'bite-sized chunks' > for sendmail to deliver. Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate > this tool. Is anyone familiar with it, and knows where it can be found? > Thanks. The one I'm familiar with is writtin in C, but it's still pretty useful. We use it to send out a quasi-monthly newsletter to ~200,000 people and it seems to do it okay (although it still takes awhile :) Try... (If that's wrong, let me know... typed it by hand...) Good luck! -philip From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 7 15:18:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id PAA08372 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:11:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from solutions.apple.com (solutions.apple.com [17.255.34.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA08297 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:10:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by solutions.apple.com (8.6.10/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id PAA10057; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:10:23 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:10:30 -0800 To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: FYI: juno.com kicked off of my sites. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is just FYI -- not thrilled at having to do this, but you should be aware this has been happening and juno.com has simply not responded to anything despite repeated requests for help. Be aware, and wary. chuq ---- To all our plaidworks users: I have just sent the following note to all of our former fellow subscribers from the juno.com domain. I'm posting this to all of the lists as well, so that everyone knows what happened, and because some of our users will have magically and suddenly disappeared, probably in the middle of conversations. Hopefully, the attached letter explains everything -- if not, contact Laurie or myself privately and we'll discuss it further. I'm very sorry to have had to do this. I do hope all of our legitimate users will return to the lists from accounts that aren't under embargo soon. And please be sure that we will do everything in our power to protect you from idiots like the one that caused this problem -- I've only had to embargo one site other than juno in all of the time we've run plaidworks. Hopefully, this will be the last one, too. Sincerely, Chuq Von Rospach owner, Plaidworks ---- letter attached --- To our users of plaidworks mailing lists from juno.com: I'm sorry to have to report that effective today, March 7, 1997, we are terminating ALL use of our list services to all users from the juno.com domain. We have been having continuing problems with abusive users and postings from this domain, being posted from the accounts . Despite repeated requests for help to the juno.com administrators, we've yet to receive a REPLY, much less any cooperation. Because of this, we have to conclude that juno.com simply doesn't care what its users do, and we have to protect our legitimate users and our services from the site. We have declared juno a pirate outpost on the net, and therefore, will no longer allow it access to our services. This affects 77 users with 94 subscriptions on our site. This is something we don't enjoy doing, but we feel this is necessary under the circumstances. Our legitmate users are encouraged to subscribe back onto our lists from some other system, and we encourage you to tell the Juno.com administration what you think about this lack of responsiveness. You might also drop a note to machoman and tell him how much you appreciate him doing this to you, but please: be nice about it, since we don't want our users to drop down to the level of the person who forced us into this. Please don't complain to us -- it won't help, and the situation won't change until we're convinced juno.com DOES, in fact, police its users. Unfortunately, to date, all they've proven is that they won't. When that changes, we'll re-evaluate the situation. Until then, all we can do is encourage you to find an ISP that cares about its reputation and its users. My apologies for the inconvenience I know this will cause you, but the situation leaves us no choice. Sincerely, Chuq Von Rospach Owner, plaidworks. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 7 20:18:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id UAA25088 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 20:15:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA25058 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 20:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id UAA07799; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 20:14:50 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970308021232.0038e784@pop.ma.ultranet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 19:59:43 -0800 To: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: FYI: juno.com kicked off of my sites. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:12 PM -0800 3/7/97, Stan Ryckman wrote: >I think you're overreacting. it wasn't your mother he was talking about, on the THIRD account he created at Juno to get around my kicking him off the other two. How many times do I have to let him log back on and start that filth, with no response from his postmasters, before I'm not overreacting? Five? Ten? 20? Or do I just get used to wakign up, reading the f--k-letter of the day, and kicking it off wondering what name he'll appear as tomorrow? > You are punishing 77 innocent people, plus >the uncountable others who enjoy conversing with them, because of your >personal problems dealing with a slow-to-act ISP. And then there are the 7,000 I'm protecting.... >No, you are *forcing* them to choose. Support my boycott, or be gone! Nope. You forgot the other option: find a different email address and be welcomed back. >How much pressure do you expect to put on juno.com by forcing 77 people >off your list for nothing they did? Those 77 aren't going to be mad >at juno; they're going to be mad at *you*. I don't care. None, if that's what they want. Juno.com can no longer spread filth on my sites, which is what really matters to me.And in fact, response from the juno users is mixed. Some positive, some negative, a couple hostile, one or two clueless. One of the guys who'd been kicked off demanded he be unsubscribed from my lists, since he's now on strike against me or something.... >Bull. You could have left your 77 well-behaved subscribers there, and just > (a) reject posts from the 3 offenders; and/or > (b) rejected new subscribers from juno.com. >You had plenty of choices. And I have 7,000 that no longer have to read the crap he was sending. A small price to pay. If a postmaster will not police his own domain, I'll have to do it for him. And ufnortuately, I can't use a rifle the way he could. there will be collateral damage. but they had a chance, and ignored me. >Did anyone other than yourself complain to juno? yes. I've heard from a number of users. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 8 17:17:19 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA25178 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:14:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from williams.edu (goshen.williams.edu [137.165.4.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id RAA25170 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:14:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from hancock.cc.williams.edu (hancock.cc.williams.edu [137.165.4.17]) by goshen.williams.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA19664 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 20:20:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [137.165.31.167] (student_98bsh.williams.edu) by hancock.cc.williams.edu (4.1/client-1.3) id AA23031; Sat, 8 Mar 97 20:20:13 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 20:20:10 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brian Subject: ads in mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anyone know where I can find an email mailing list in which I can post a buy/sell advertisement? From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 8 18:32:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA14630 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from bbfm.di.com (bbfm.di.com [207.71.205.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id SAA14559 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from exchange.di.com by bbfm.di.com with ESMTP id SAA27641 for on Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:26:11 -0800 Received: by exchange.di.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1389.3) id <01BC2BED.A800CEC0@exchange.di.com>; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:22:18 -0800 Message-ID: From: Todd Day To: "List Manager's Digest (E-mail)" Subject: JUNO problems Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:22:17 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1389.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've been tempted to kick all Juno people off my lists, as well, but for a completely different reason - Juno doesn't allow e-mail over 61k. My digests regularly exceed this amount. Some weeks, my auto-bouncer bot goes and kicks all juno users off due to excessive bouncing, and they all have to resubscribe again. I'll probably just make Majordomo screen out all juno.com requests in the future to prevent all this wasted bandwidth. -todd- From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 8 19:47:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA19570 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:42:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from tgn2.tgn.net ([205.241.85.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id TAA19541 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:42:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialin.tgn.net ([205.241.85.92]) by tgn2.tgn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA07498 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:50:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970309035401.006d9ff4@tgn.net> X-Sender: ashandrr@tgn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 21:54:01 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Alan S. Harrell" Subject: Re: ads in mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:20 PM 3/8/97 -0500, Brian wrote: >Does anyone know where I can find an email mailing list in which I can post >a buy/sell advertisement? Why, yes indeed. I have the perfect mailing list for you to post your advertisement to. It's called the ASHcan-L. What more perfect place for your spam than the 'Can? Alan ASHandRR@TGN.net From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 8 19:51:06 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA19196 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:35:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from tgn2.tgn.net ([205.241.85.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id TAA19179 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialin.tgn.net ([205.241.85.92]) by tgn2.tgn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA07289 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:42:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970309034649.006de598@tgn.net> X-Sender: ashandrr@tgn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 21:46:49 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Alan S. Harrell" Subject: Re: JUNO problems Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 06:22 PM 3/8/97 -0800, Todd wrote: >I've been tempted to kick all Juno people off my lists, as well, but for >a completely different reason - Juno doesn't allow e-mail over 61k. My >digests regularly exceed this amount. Some weeks, my auto-bouncer bot >goes and kicks all juno users off due to excessive bouncing, and they >all have to resubscribe again. I'll probably just make Majordomo screen >out all juno.com requests in the future to prevent all this wasted >bandwidth. Why can't you simply do as I do and configure your digest to a maximum of 55K or smaller? I don't know how many Juno subscribers you have, but I doubt any of you have a greater percentage than I have on my Juno_accmail List. And for my zine, The ASHcan-L, I always make sure it does not exceed Juno's limitations because there too, I have a great many Juno subscribers. Juno Online Services brags one and a half million accounts. You may wish to snub them, but it is they that have the clout -- not you. The community of Juno users have became a very powerful force and is increasingly demanding more and more attention. Bounce-wise, it is not Juno or AOL that gives me the most problems, especially taking in consideration percentage of subscribers. I see greater problems from AT&T Worldnet and MSN subscribers. But I would not even consider blocking those accounts from subscribing to my lists because I would view that as patently discriminatory. I could not punish an individual for the failures of their ISP, nor could I punish a group of innocents for the mistakes of a few individuals. There are many Internet and Online users in this world that do not have a plethora of choices for Internet access. This is especially true of many Juno users. Castigating them for what is of little choice to them is contemptuous and haughty. Hardly the spirit of sharing that the Internet was meant to be. Alan ASHandRR@TGN.net From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 8 20:02:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA20277 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id TAA20221 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:55:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA27395; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:58:13 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970308201121.00c69c7c@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 20:11:28 -0800 To: "Alan S. Harrell" From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: ads in mailing lists Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:54 PM 3/8/97 -0600, Alan S. Harrell wrote: >At 08:20 PM 3/8/97 -0500, Brian wrote: >>Does anyone know where I can find an email mailing list in which I can post >>a buy/sell advertisement? > Why, yes indeed. I have the perfect mailing list for you to post > your advertisement to. It's called the ASHcan-L. What more perfect > place for your spam than the 'Can? Hello, Alan's brain, is this thing on? Not all "advertisements" are spam, and it would be perfectly legitimate for someone to run a mailing list equivalent of the various *.forsale.* Usenet groups, as long as everyone on the list _wanted_ to be there. "For sale" advertisements are _not_ automatically spam. Sheesh. And for Brian -- no, I don't know of any, but you might try www.liszt.com as a starting point of your search; it includes links to other good places which I can't remember offhand the URLs for (such as the PAML list). -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Enter the Virtual Dog Show! www.dogshow.com From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 8 21:32:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA23329 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:27:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from atheria.europa.com (atheria.europa.com [199.2.194.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id VAA23322 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:27:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from kali(really [206.163.12.98]) by atheria.europa.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:33:10 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #4 built 1997-Jan-19) Message-ID: <33224BED.57A7@europa.com> Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 21:34:37 -0800 From: kali X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: JUNO problems References: <2.2.32.19970309034649.006de598@tgn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Juno Online Services brags one and a half million accounts. You > may wish to snub them, but it is they that have the clout -- not > you. The community of Juno users have became a very powerful force > and is increasingly demanding more and more attention. This cracks me up because I don't believe I have a single Juno subscriber on any of my lists (not by any intervention of mine of course). I wonder why..... The only real problem I have ever had is with universities. Many of them have their mail systems configured to disallow any bulk mailings. This is has pro's in that their students won't have to suffer with bulk mailed spams, but it also means that I can't allow these people on my mailing list. Unless I'm missing some configuration that overrides this?? (I can't change the fact that they are bulk mailed, must stay that way) -Kali kali@europa.com From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 9 08:02:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA13959 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 07:54:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id HAA13952 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 07:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa07635; 9 Mar 97 8:00 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sun, 09 Mar 97 07:18:29 PST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: JUNO problems From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: <4u1a4D1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 07:00:14 PST In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970309034649.006de598@tgn.net> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Alan S. Harrell" writes: > Why can't you simply do as I do and configure your digest to a > maximum of 55K or smaller? Nerdnosh is actually a magazine issued daily, and it is archived strictly by volume and issue number, and the mere suggestion I would distort that for the sake of folks not serious enough about Net mail to pay even a penny for it is utterly prepostrous. > Juno Online Services brags one and a half million accounts. You > may wish to snub them, but it is they that have the clout -- not > you. Look, supposing you were designing your operation around participation, rather than sheer numbers. Much like market research, you would be interested in the accounts which might bring back returns. I am interested in readers, yes, but I'm more interested in those willing to participate. I look at even the inflated numbers given for Juno, and I see also the many-times more wired connections out there which don't have the Juno limitations, and - well, the alleged `clout' dissolves. AOL and Juno have an interest in producing numbers; they sell advertising on that basis alone. All a vast array of accounts means to us here on Nerdnosh is the chance of finding more active members. And, I'm sorry, Juno just doesn't carry that rep with me. > There are many Internet and Online users in this world that do > not have a plethora of choices for Internet access. Many listowners likewise must triage energy and resources. We all must decide - how much trouble is that account worth in relation to that it causes? It isn't likely that Juno will have a POP in your neighborhood and no other access for a more legitimate ISP does. I don't block Juno accounts. But it's for sure I won't be adapting my operation to them either, even though, as the old saying goes, some of my best members - . --- mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:info@clovis.nerdnosh.org http://www.corcom.com/reloj/Nerdnosh.html From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 9 09:02:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA16683 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from bbfm.di.com (bbfm.di.com [207.71.205.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id IAA16666 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:57:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from exchange.di.com by bbfm.di.com with ESMTP id JAA32147 for on Sun, 9 Mar 1997 09:00:17 -0800 Received: by exchange.di.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1389.3) id <01BC2C67.C3FEA370@exchange.di.com>; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:56:24 -0800 Message-ID: From: Todd Day To: "List Manager's Digest (E-mail)" Subject: JUNO problems Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:56:22 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1389.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Why can't you simply configure your digest to a >maximum of 55K or smaller? My digest has been a once-a-day event for the last five years. It is heavily moderated by me. I'm not going to change to a two-a-day digest just because some el-cheapo ISP comes along and can't deal with the volume... I am not "punishing" or "snubbing" anyone by this policy. That would imply that I have some some deliberate thought-out rule that they are breaking, and that I am going out of my way to prevent them from receiving my digest. I set up the digest as once-a-day because the conversation on this particular digest just works better that way, and it is the readership that has pushed the content over 61k/day. Personally, I would say that Juno is "punishing" their users with such a ridiculously low e-mail size. That sort of thing might have been good back in the 80s, but with all the "rich text" sources available today, it seems mighty low... >Castigating them for what is >of little choice to them is contemptuous and haughty. Hardly >the spirit of sharing that the Internet was meant to be. I put in an hour a day of my own time on my digest, paying back the "spirit of the Internet". If I recolllect properly, the "spirit of the Internet" never involved making things more difficult for the people providing services for free, just because you are too cheap or don't have the resources to access the free material... After all, there are TONS of people without even an e-mail account! I really hate all these Johnny-come-lately access providers that seem to go out of their way to make things difficult for those of us who provide things for free, and are not willing to fix their mistakes when we point them out. -todd- From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 9 10:47:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA19610 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 10:34:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from GRINCH.RES.CMU.EDU (GRINCH.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.98.29]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id KAA19603 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 10:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.2.98.8] by GRINCH.RES.CMU.EDU with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sun, 9 Mar 1997 13:39:29 -0500 X-Sender: josh@grinch.res.cmu.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199703090900.BAA01480@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-URL: http://thelorax.skyweyr.com/josh.html X-Planation: My mountain is waiting... Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 13:31:43 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Joshua D. Baer" Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V6 #53 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:00 AM -0500 3/9/97, list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM (List-Managers-Dige wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find an email mailing list in which I can post > a buy/sell advertisement? We offer legitimate, no-spam advertising on most of the lists we host. Take a look at for a list of our publicly accessible lists to see the topics available. Please contact me privately if you'd like more information. ~Josh -- ---------------------------------- Joshua D. Baer SkyList Mailing List Hosting Service http://cgi.skyweyr.com/Guest.Login From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 9 13:02:25 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA23000 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:54:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id MAA22993 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa23324; 9 Mar 97 13:00 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sun, 09 Mar 97 12:15:39 PST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: JUNO problems From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 12:11:59 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Todd Day writes: > Personally, I would say that Juno is "punishing" their users with such a > ridiculously low e-mail size. It does seem sort of arbitrary, when you consider there doesn't seem to be any limit to the aggragate mail. I cannot in my Juno account receive a 65K file, but I can let it run for days and build up many many times that without causing even a ripple to Juno SysAdmin (which phantom entity may be the unicorn of the net...)... --- mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:info@clovis.nerdnosh.org http://www.corcom.com/reloj/Nerdnosh.html From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 9 14:17:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA24529 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:02:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [192.80.84.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id OAA24519 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:02:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA01245; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:08:01 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:08:01 -0500 (EST) From: Brock Rozen To: Todd Day Cc: "List Manager's Digest (E-mail)" Subject: Re: JUNO problems In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Backup: Disable X-Url: http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Todd Day wrote: > I really hate all these Johnny-come-lately access providers that seem to > go out of their way to make things difficult for those of us who provide > things for free, and are not willing to fix their mistakes when we point > them out. It is neither Juno's fault nor your fault. Juno is providing a free service to all those who use it. Nobody's forcing them to use it and the terms are very simple. You get what you pay for. You also provide a free service. Anybody who wants to receive it can, anybody who cannot receive it is losing out. THe problem is with those who demand everything that you and I get -- from a free service. The same, BTW, holds true for any provider. There are no secrets anymore in this game. If AOL limits you -- either keep your load down or go to someone else who puts their priority on allowing their user's more e-mail storage. The option is all up to the consumer -- both you and Juno provide whatever you want. If somebody wishes to receive it, that's their problem to figure out how. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@webdreams.com | http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 9 16:47:19 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA28971 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 16:37:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca (quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca [129.128.5.19]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id QAA28964 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 16:37:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca (gerald@stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca [129.128.65.240]) by quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA63142 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:43:35 -0700 Received: (from gerald@localhost) by stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA00351 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:43:30 -0700 From: Gerald Oskoboiny Message-Id: <199703100043.RAA00351@stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca> Subject: Re: Delivering to large mailing lists To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:43:29 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <199703070651.BAA11656@the-great-machine.mit.edu> from "Jered J Floyd" at Mar 7, 97 01:51:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jered J Floyd writes: > One solution that has been suggested to me is to use a helper program > called bulk_mailer.pl, which breaks large lists into 'bite-sized chunks' > for sendmail to deliver. Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate > this tool. Is anyone familiar with it, and knows where it can be found? Another good solution is 'splitlist': http://www.isf.ru/~stas/splitlist/ This page says, among other things: | Q.: Many of the Majordomo users asked me, why I didn't use bulk_mailer ? | | A.: First, I didn't know about it at all. Second, bulk_mailer uses | sendmail command line instead of SMTP, and this means it can't | decide properly whether to fork sendmail, or just put the message in the | queue. While talking via SMTP, Sendmail checks the system load and | makes decision - to fork or not to fork. One thing I didn't like about splitlist is that you had to set the number of recipients per message globally in your majordomo.cf, so I changed it to calculate this figure on the fly using a new variable ($numSplitlistChunks) and the number of recipients on the list currently being split. If anyone wants my changes, let me know. Gerald -- Gerald Oskoboiny Phone: +1 403 492 7698 Systems Analyst, Information Systems Fax: +1 403 492 7172 Office of the Registrar and Student Awards University of Alberta From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 9 17:17:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA29691 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:11:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id RAA29682 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:11:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lev@localhost) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA16018; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 20:17:05 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 20:17:05 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Kayak X-Sender: lev@kirkwood.hoosier.net To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: ListMom-Talk Discussion List , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: FYI: juno.com...off of my sites. I agree w U In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Good for you, Chuq. Permissiveness and infinite forgiveness works for those who live sheltered lives; but it is not wisdom. Good for you. - Paul --- "To have doubted one's first principles is the mark of a civilized man." - Oliver Wendell Holmes From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 9 22:47:26 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA11487 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 22:41:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [192.80.84.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id WAA11480 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 22:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA09865; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 01:47:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 01:47:00 -0500 (EST) From: Brock Rozen To: Gerald Oskoboiny Cc: List Managers Subject: Re: Delivering to large mailing lists In-Reply-To: <199703100043.RAA00351@stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca> Message-Id: X-Backup: Disable X-Url: http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Gerald Oskoboiny wrote: > Another good solution is 'splitlist': IMO, tlb is the best one. Best for majordomo as the author of it is one of the majordomo-workers and will obviously, make it easy to integrate tlb into majordomo. Let's you reduce the number of aliases you need, speeds things up and gives you lots of control. Write to tibbs@hpc.uh.edu for information ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@webdreams.com | http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 10 05:18:26 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id FAA02163 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 05:10:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from tgn2.tgn.net ([205.241.85.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id FAA02142 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 05:10:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialin.tgn.net (wwgnet.com [205.241.85.32]) by tgn2.tgn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA22188 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:18:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970310132200.006afd2c@tgn.net> X-Sender: ashandrr@tgn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:22:00 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Alan S. Harrell" Subject: Re: ads in mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:11 PM 3/8/97 -0800, Kynn wrote: >Hello, Alan's brain, is this thing on? Not all "advertisements" >are spam, and it would be perfectly legitimate for someone to >run a mailing list equivalent of the various *.forsale.* >Usenet groups, as long as everyone on the list _wanted_ to be >there. Pejorative aside, spam is any unwanted, unsolicited advertisement, and largely in the eye of the be-getter. I especially do not want ads on my mailing lists. If you allow them on yours, so be it. >"For sale" advertisements are _not_ automatically spam. Sheesh. They ^are^ on my mailing lists and I have made that very clear to my subscribers. Posting an advertisement to my list, no matter how legitimate, will get a subscriber removed immediately. I have a great deal of tolerance for spam sent to me personally, but when it posts to my lists I feel as if the poster is trying to take control of my list for his own purposes. This I cannot allow. >And for Brian -- no, I don't know of any, but you might try >www.liszt.com as a starting point of your search; it includes >links to other good places which I can't remember offhand the >URLs for (such as the PAML list). Invite Brian to your list(s). Alan ASHandRR@TGN.net From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 10 06:47:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id GAA04999 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 06:33:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from webster.m-w.com ([206.98.43.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id GAA04972 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 06:32:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by m-w.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.0) id AA02953; Mon, 10 Mar 97 09:31:15 EST Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 09:31:15 EST From: awest@webster.m-w.com (Amy West) Message-Id: <9703101431.AA02953@m-w.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: methods for moderating Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've subscribed to this list because I will be setting up a mailing list in the future. I'd like to know from managers who moderate their list how they do this. ---Amy West Merriam-Webster Inc. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 10 07:32:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA07785 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:28:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sparkie.gnofn.org (sparkie.gnofn.org [206.27.168.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id HAA07757 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:27:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from sparkie.gnofn.org (sparkie.gnofn.org [206.27.168.35]) by sparkie.gnofn.org (8.7.Beta.10/8.7.Beta.10) with SMTP id JAA10906; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:33:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:33:33 -0600 (CST) From: "Your friend at:" To: Amy West cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: methods for moderating In-Reply-To: <9703101431.AA02953@m-w.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Friends, I have trouble with this also. I'm still using dos and have still not figured out how to moderate using dos. The system advise did not seem t o work. Sincerely, Christopher OX <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> (Bhagavad Gita 2.51) On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Amy West wrote: > I've subscribed to this list because I will > be setting up a mailing list in the future. > I'd like to know from managers who moderate their > list how they do this. > > ---Amy West > Merriam-Webster Inc. > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 10 08:03:04 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA09914 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from webex.webex.com (webex.webex.com [205.139.142.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id HAA09889 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:56:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.139.142.60] (vknelson.webex.com [205.139.142.60]) by webex.webex.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA07794; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:13:37 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <9703101431.AA02953@m-w.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:02:36 -0600 To: "Your friend at:" From: Valencia King Nelson Subject: Re: methods for moderating Cc: Amy West , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:33 AM -0600 3/10/97, Your friend at: wrote: >Dear Friends, > > I have trouble with this also. I'm still using dos and have still >not figured out how to moderate using dos. The system advise did not seem >t o work. > >Sincerely, Add me to that list needing such information. I manage (try) a list of about 600 subscribers whose primary interst is genealogy. The list is open and that has problems. I use EudoraPro on my Performa 6200 with Turbo re-direct capabilities. I guess that is how to get the mail out once it comes to me but I am not sure. Any help will be much appreciated. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> mailto:VKN@aol.com mailto:vknelson@webex.com Valencia King Nelson Co-Owner/Moderator Afrigeneas Mailing List African Ancestored Genealogy http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/History/afrigen/index.html From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 10 10:20:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id JAA16572 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:47:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id JAA16540 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:47:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA27305; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:53:02 -0600 (CST) To: List Managers Subject: Re: Delivering to large mailing lists References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 10 Mar 1997 11:53:01 -0600 In-Reply-To: Brock Rozen's message of Mon, 10 Mar 1997 01:47:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Lines: 37 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.22/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "BR" == Brock Rozen writes: BR> IMO, tlb is the best one. Since Brock has done me the favor of advertising TLB for me, I'll do a quick explanation. Forgive me if I center too much on Majordomo; I've never tried TLB on anything else. Like bulk_mailer and splitlist, TLB lets you trade CPU and memory for multiple parallel deliveries. TLB also lets you spread delivery out among several hosts. I have five machines that deliver outgoing list mail in parallel, and none of them is the machine that runs the list software. While single-host parallel delivery is something you can get from one of the newer MTAs, TLB can still be used to provide multiple host parallelism. TLB is callable as a mailer from Majordomo, eliminating the need for (and the security holes of) outgoing aliases. It can call archiving and digestifying programs itself, so you don't need aliases to do those, either. TLB has piles of different sorting and batching options. TLB can send addresses matching regular expressions to different sets of hosts, allowing cheap domain-based remote exploding given cooperating remote machines. The down side: TLB is big (written in perl, 5.003 and several modules required), reasonably difficult to configure, and can consume huge amounts of resources. I am not currently doing any development of TLB (though I'll still support it and fix simple bugs) because I'm rewriting it and turning it into a delivery engine for a future version of Majordomo. I may then turn it back into a standalone product, but it will be a while before I come to that point. TLB is at ftp://ftp.hpc.uh.edu/pub/tlb/ -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 10 11:03:34 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA24370 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from prawn.fishy.net (flounder.fishy.net [206.156.56.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id KAA24361 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:53:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sturgeon.fishy.net (sturgeon.fishy.net [172.16.1.3]) by prawn.fishy.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA14464; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:59:23 -0500 Received: (from bonnie@localhost) by sturgeon.fishy.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA134838; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:59:13 -0500 From: Bonnie Scott Message-Id: <199703101859.NAA134838@sturgeon.fishy.net> Subject: Re: JUNO problems To: tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:59:13 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Tim Bowden" at Mar 9, 97 12:11:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just FYI, there is a list where you can discuss Juno to your heart's content: juno_accmail-digest@world.std.com I believe it's a majordomo list; there is also of course a non-digest version, but it's a pretty active list. Chuq's note has already been posted there, no real backlash yet, but a bit of disappointment (is how I'd characterize the reaction). I think the list has either some Juno employees on it or else people who know their addresses. It's mainly their users, though, discussing everything from the message size restrictions, loss of the 800 number, and bugs. About the limit: We keep our digests shorter for both our Juno subscribers (about 2.5% of our subscribers) and also Prodigy Classic members, who can receive larger messages, but after about 31K, the messages get converted into awkward "attachments" that must be downloaded. (If they use EMC, things are simplified, and the serious e-mailers do.) This does result in about four digests a day for our more active lists. I hope that will eventually regulate their volume and increase the signal-to-noise ratio for those over-active lists (maybe five out of our 150 lists). Bonnie Scott Prodigy, Inc. > Todd Day writes: > > Personally, I would say that Juno is "punishing" their users with such a > > ridiculously low e-mail size. > It does seem sort of arbitrary, when you consider there doesn't seem to > be any limit to the aggragate mail. I cannot in my Juno account receive > a 65K file, but I can let it run for days and build up many many times > that without causing even a ripple to Juno SysAdmin (which phantom > entity may be the unicorn of the net...)... > --- > mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 10 11:47:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA29888 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from prawn.fishy.net (flounder.fishy.net [206.156.56.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id LAA29871 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:37:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from sturgeon.fishy.net (sturgeon.fishy.net [172.16.1.3]) by prawn.fishy.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA78322 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:42:54 -0500 Received: (from bonnie@localhost) by sturgeon.fishy.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA107724 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:42:53 -0500 From: Bonnie Scott Message-Id: <199703101942.OAA107724@sturgeon.fishy.net> Subject: Heads up for "sensual-asia" spam To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:42:52 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk (I hope this isn't a troll designed to make me look gullible, but...) I should send this to the spam lists as well, but I thought a warning was appropriate here because this luser seems to be targetting mailing lists. Bonnie > Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:17:36 -0500 > To: majordomo-owner@listserv.prodigy.com > From: "KasKa Co." > Subject: Making Money For Life Time > Owener: > > We are new in mail list area. The massage we are trying to post as the > follows: > > 1. Check out > > http://www.sensual-asia.com/ > > (Adult only) looking for money making plan. > > 2. Forward this mail to your friends. > > Thanks! > > Simon > > > > Please let me know how to do and if you can do that? > > Thanks again! > > Simon > > > At 05:49 AM 3/10/97 -0500, you wrote: > >-- > > > >>>>> 1. Check out > >**** Command '1.' not recognized. > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.sensual-asia.com/ > >**** Command 'http://www.sensual-asia.com/' not recognized. > >>>>> > >>>>> (Adult only) looking for money making plan. > >**** Command '(adult' not recognized. > >>>>> > >>>>> 2. Forward this mail to all of your friends. > >**** Command '2.' not recognized. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks! > >**** Command 'thanks!' not recognized. > >>>>> > >>>>> Simon > >**** Command 'simon' not recognized. > >>>>> > >**** No valid commands found. > >**** Commands must be in message BODY, not in HEADER. > > > >**** Help for majordomo@listserv.prodigy.com: > > > >This is Brent Chapman's "Majordomo" mailing list manager, version 1.93. > > > >In the description below items contained in []'s are optional. When > >providing the item, do not include the []'s around it. > > > >It understands the following commands: > > > > subscribe [] [
] > > Subscribe yourself (or
if specified) to the named . > > > > unsubscribe [] [
] > > Unsubscribe yourself (or
if specified) from the named . > > > > info [] > > Retrieve the general introductory information for the named . > > > > lists > > Show the lists served by this Majordomo server. > > > > help > > Retrieve this message. > > > > end > > Stop processing commands (useful if your mailer adds a signature). > > > >Commands should be sent in the body of an email message to > >"majordomo@listserv.prodigy.com"or to "-request@listserv.prodigy.com". > > > >The parameter is only optional if the message is sent to an address > >of the form "-request@listserv.prodigy.com". > > > > > >Commands in the "Subject:" line NOT processed. > > > >If you have any questions or problems, please contact > >"majordomo-owner@listserv.prodigy.com". > > > > > > > > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 11 00:32:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA19188 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 00:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from NS1.Content.Net (NS1.Content.Net [206.253.232.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id AAA19181 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 00:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from nomi.knowledgetech.com (mh-15.rust.net [205.199.80.115]) by NS1.Content.Net (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id DAA14791 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 03:38:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970311033629.00b30d60@knowledgetech.com> X-Sender: byxbe@knowledgetech.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 03:36:29 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Thom Byxbe Subject: Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is anybody else having trouble with geocities.com? They have been bouncing everything... Is it just me/ Host unknown (Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found) ----- Thom Byxbe byxbe@Knowledgetech.com President info@Knowledgetech.com Knowledge Technologies, Inc. http://Knowledgetech.com Voice - 810.643.9306 Fax - 810.637.3051 .................................................................... .................................................................... "Successful People Do What Unsuccessful People Won't" .................................................................... .................................................................... From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 11 03:02:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id CAA25164 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 02:51:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from kparker.nai.net (kparker.nai.net [208.133.166.213]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id CAA25148 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 02:51:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (admin@localhost) by kparker.nai.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA09347; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 05:10:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 05:10:51 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Parker To: Thom Byxbe cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970311033629.00b30d60@knowledgetech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thom, On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Thom Byxbe wrote: > Is anybody else having trouble with geocities.com? > > They have been bouncing everything... Is it just me/ > Host unknown (Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found) I just got through to them all right. I get occasional glitches, lasting anywhere from one bounce to, say, an hour, where certain domain groups seem to be unavailable, and any E-Mail to them will bounce. Then, everything's back in order again. I know better than to take it seriously when I get bounces saying, for example, that the domains compuserve.com, delphi.com, or netcom.com are not found (and I've seen all three, occasionally). Wouldn't something like this happen if one of the "root" internet name servers crashed? Also, could this happen to just you if your own internet service provider's name server crashed? Till later, Ken Parker From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 11 03:47:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id DAA28555 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 03:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id DAA28538 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 03:45:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2A VAX) id 3; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 03:51:07 PST Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 03:51:03 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: admin@kparker.nai.net CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009B1157.E7EA2694.3@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"admin@kparker.nai.net" "Ken Parker" 11-MAR-1997 03:10:05.78 > Subj: Re: Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found > Thom, > > On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Thom Byxbe wrote: > > > Is anybody else having trouble with geocities.com? > > > > They have been bouncing everything... Is it just me/ > > Host unknown (Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found) > > I just got through to them all right. > > I get occasional glitches, lasting anywhere from one bounce to, > say, an hour, where certain domain groups seem to be unavailable, > and any E-Mail to them will bounce. Then, everything's back in > order again. > > I know better than to take it seriously when I get bounces > saying, for example, that the domains compuserve.com, delphi.com, > or netcom.com are not found (and I've seen all three, occasionally). > > Wouldn't something like this happen if one of the "root" > internet name servers crashed? Also, could this happen to Probably not, and that's because there are several of them. (I forget the exact number at the moment; they are experimenting with some new ones.) More than likely, it's either a massive root server corruption, which should really not happen anymore since the newer versions of bind (named) have some intelligence built in to screen out corruption, or possibly that the end domain's DNS is fluxed up, which is the more likely cause. > just you if your own internet service provider's name server > crashed? > That's why I have a secondary entry for a server at work that I know to be sane, because I administer it. Now, if it's down, or the route it down, well, you're SBT'ed... > Till later, > > Ken Parker > -HWM From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 11 08:17:46 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA13300 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:15:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id IAA13272 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:27:18 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970311033629.00b30d60@knowledgetech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:27:04 -0500 To: Thom Byxbe From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 03:36 -0500 3/11/97, Thom Byxbe said: >Is anybody else having trouble with geocities.com? > >They have been bouncing everything... Is it just me/ > > >Host unknown (Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found) Sounds like an intermittent DNS problem (not to be confused with an intermittent DSN problem, though the former can lead to the latter ;-). My DNS returned an IP # of 204.7.246.134, and I just had the following conversation with their server: >220 geocities.com ESMTP GeoCities Sendmail 8.7.5/8.7.3; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:16:3 >0 -0800 (PST) >quit >221 geocities.com closing connection ... so it's up and running. - Vince Sabio orionsoft@telephonet.com -- If you run a mailing list and are tired of manually processing mail bounces, then you probably need SmartBounce. For more information, send a blank email to . -- Because The Only GOOD Spammer is a DEAD Spammer From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 12 12:04:58 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA11581 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:29:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id LAA11552 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:29:01 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@honor.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:28:40 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent Chapman Subject: Clueless spam artist of the week... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --- begin forwarded text From: LOVEALLIE@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:35:58 -0500 (EST) To: BRENT@greatcircle.com Subject: LIST QUESTION IF POSSIBLE, COULD YOU SEND ME A LIST OF PEOPLE SO THAT I COULD ADD THEM TO MY LIST? I WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. ZACH --- end forwarded text -- Brent Chapman Internet/intranet training and consulting, Brent@GreatCircle.COM specializing in network design and security. Great Circle Associates,Inc. Visit us at http://www.greatcircle.com/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 13 15:11:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA00187 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from outlawnet.com (outlawnet.com [204.245.248.202]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id PAA29940 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:00:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [163.185.20.232] ([163.185.20.232]) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00854 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:59:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:06:25 -0600 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Gary Bickford Subject: "loops back to myself" error Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Folks I hope this isn't too much of a dummy question, but trying to send to a Solaris machine, I get back an error "Local configuration error: mail loops back to myself" This is true for all mail to at least one user on that machine. I don't know about other users. It's a newly installed user - can the user fix this, or is it a system-level problem? In either case, how is it usually fixed? Thanks for any help you can provide. Below is the actual text of the error, with the actual domain deleted. GB >The original message was received at Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:34:48 -0600 >from outlawnet.com [204.245.248.202] > > ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- > (unrecoverable error) > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >553 connect. config error: mail loops back to myself >554 ... Local configuration error From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 13 15:56:02 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA05667 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:35:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id PAA05560 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:40:50 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:40:41 -0500 To: Gary Bickford From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: "loops back to myself" error Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 17:06 -0600 3/13/97, Gary Bickford said: >I hope this isn't too much of a dummy question, but trying to send to a >Solaris machine, I get back an error "Local configuration error: mail loops >back to myself" This is true for all mail to at least one user on that >machine. I don't know about other users. > >It's a newly installed user - can the user fix this, or is it a >system-level problem? In either case, how is it usually fixed? Depends on the user -- if he's the net admin, he can probably fix it. ;-) Typically, though, it's not a user-induced problem (or we'd be seeing a LOT more of this sort of thing). The fix is usually to mail postmaster@ (often, the reporting server does this, itself -- check the CC on the DSN it sent you) and apprise him of the problem. He will have to make the necessary repair, which is usually to a .forward (this is where the user comes in, but most users these days aren't working from Unix prompts, thank God) or an MX record that has been misconfigured. There are other causes, too. I've seen mailers aliased to themselves, and other truly charming gymnastics that underscore the fact that net admins are often just users who got promoted. ;-) >>The original message was received at Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:34:48 -0600 >>from outlawnet.com [204.245.248.202] >> >> ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- >> (unrecoverable error) >> >> ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >>553 connect. config error: mail loops back to myself >>554 ... Local configuration error BTW, SmartBounce processes these errors as soft bounces, and will remove the offending address from your list after it has bounced beyond your soft-bounce threshold. (For the unaware, SmartBounce is a mail-bounce processing package that I mentioned here about a month ago; it is now nearing its first full release. For details, see .sig.) - Vince Sabio orionsoft@telephonet.com -- If you run a mailing list and are tired of manually processing mail bounces, then you probably need SmartBounce. For more information, send a blank email to . -- Because The Only GOOD Spammer is a DEAD Spammer From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 14 04:40:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id EAA12332 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 04:34:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id EAA12301 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 04:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from jane.smoe.org (jeffw@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id HAA21829 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:33:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA29688; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:33:27 -0500 Message-ID: <19970314073326.CP25133@smoe.org> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:33:26 -0500 From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Heads-up: list loop @ utk.edu X-Mailer: Mutt 0.59.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk For some reason, the postmaster at utkux.utcc.utk.edu is resending mail from one of my mailing lists BACK to the mailing list. If you have any subscribers from the domain, you might want to filter out mail from that domain until they get their act together. They're attaching this footer to the resent mail: ############################# Notice: This message was found in a dead-letter box and appears to be for you. If you have already gotten a copy of this message, we beg your tolerance. The Unix Systems Group Here's a full copy of their brain-damage: -----Forwarded message from jchance@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu (John F Chance)----- Return-Path: Received: from localhost by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA28862; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:29:43 -0500 Received: by jane.smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:29:37 -0500 Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA28846; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:29:32 -0500 Received: from utkux.utcc.utk.edu by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA28842; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:29:22 -0500 Received: by utkux.utcc.utk.edu (5.x/2.8s-UTK.UTCC) id AA23306; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:29:08 -0500 Received: from relay1.shore.net by utkux.utcc.utk.edu (5.x/2.8s-UTK.UTCC) id AA16284; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 03:29:42 -0500 Received: from jane.smoe.org (daemon@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA28363; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:43:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA06622; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:43:01 -0500 Received: by jane.smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:34:40 -0500 Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA06494; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:34:34 -0500 Received: from bayflash.stpt.usf.edu by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA06490; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:34:21 -0500 Received: from default (ppp12.stpt.usf.edu [131.247.146.211]) by bayflash.stpt.usf.edu (8.8.3/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA26471 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:33:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <332587E3.722A@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:27:15 -0500 From: John F Chance Reply-To: jchance@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: jewel@smoe.org Subject: NJC:Surprising Wit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jewel@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Okay, when I heard jewel was going to be chatting on AOL I asked a classmate of mine if there was any way to get on without being on AOL. I am somewhat new to all this stuff and he is very knowledgable about these types of things. While he is very intelligent he never seemed to be the type of person to pull something over on someone(like me). Well, he showed me what to do (or at least I thought he did) and I mailed it to the list. When eight o'clock rolled around I realized what he did. So, if you read the message I am speaking of and realize it is wrong, you know why. Unfortunate victim of surprising wit John Chance ############################# Notice: This message was found in a dead-letter box and appears to be for you. If you have already gotten a copy of this message, we beg your tolerance. The Unix Systems Group -----End of forwarded message----- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 14 05:10:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id FAA14415 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 05:06:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from java.aboard.co.uk (java.aboard.co.uk [194.73.51.130]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id FAA14408 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 05:06:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nick@localhost) by java.aboard.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.9) id NAA07866; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:04:55 GMT Message-ID: <19970314130455.58160@amulation.co.uk> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:04:55 +0000 From: Nick Perry To: Jeff Wasilko Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Heads-up: list loop @ utk.edu References: <19970314073326.CP25133@smoe.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1e In-Reply-To: <19970314073326.CP25133@smoe.org>; from Jeff Wasilko on Mar 03, 1997 at 07:33:26AM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mar 03, 1997 at 07:33:26AM -0500, Jeff Wasilko wrote: > For some reason, the postmaster at utkux.utcc.utk.edu is > resending mail from one of my mailing lists BACK to the mailing > list. If you have any subscribers from the domain, you might want > to filter out mail from that domain until they get their act > together. > > They're attaching this footer to the resent mail: Hmmm, I got some of those too. Although their ancient version of sendmail was not recording envelope recipients in the Received: headers - you'd have at least thought they'd be sensible enough to try and determine the difference between outgoing and incoming messages :-( Nick -- Nick Perry | Home / Recreation | Work - AboarD Boats & Yachts ____________ | LONDON SW1, UK | LONDON SW10 0TB UK Internet, | http://www.amulation.co.uk | http://www.aboard.co.uk Musicals, | nick@amulation.co.uk | np@aboard.co.uk Theatre, ----------------------------------------------------------- Coffee, Tea, Multimedia, Macs, Photography, Print Publishing, etc, etc.. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 14 22:40:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA00273 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:37:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from tgn2.tgn.net (tgn.net [205.241.85.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id WAA00266 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:37:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialin.tgn.net ([205.241.85.95]) by tgn2.tgn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA01734 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:38:00 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970315064156.006d8da0@tgn.net> X-Sender: ashandrr@tgn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:41:56 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Alan S. Harrell" Subject: Re: JUNO problems Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:59 PM 3/10/97 -0500, Bonnie wrote: > >Just FYI, there is a list where you can discuss Juno to your heart's content: > >juno_accmail-digest@world.std.com > >I believe it's a majordomo list; there is also of course a non-digest version, >but it's a pretty active list. Yes, it is a Majordomo. I'd categorize it as a medium output list. >Chuq's note has already been posted there, no real backlash yet, but a >bit of disappointment (is how I'd characterize the reaction). I think the >list has either some Juno employees on it or else people who know their >addresses. It's mainly their users, though, discussing everything from >the message size restrictions, loss of the 800 number, and bugs. Tsk, tsk. I betcha Chuq's ears were burning. You shoulda heard the nasty things they said about him on the Juno_accamil List. Ole Chuq even tried to post to the List, but I hear that mean list owner don't allow no one to post to his list, lest 'n they be subscribers. Ole Chuq just wasted bandwith and caused a bounce to be had. >About the limit: >We keep our digests shorter for both our Juno subscribers (about 2.5% of >our subscribers)... Thank you. It's list owners like yourself that give the Internet a good name. >...and also Prodigy Classic members, who can receive larger messages, but >after about 31K, the messages get converted into awkward "attachments" that >must be downloaded. (If they use EMC, things are simplified, and the serious >e-mailers do.) This does result in about four digests a day for >our more active lists. I hope that will eventually regulate their volume and >increase the signal-to-noise ratio for those over-active lists (maybe five >out of our 150 lists). The point I hope you are making, is that a list owner should never be so rigid as to not bend to the needs of their subscribers -- all of them without selective discrimination. Frankly, any list owner that goes nuts over a few bounces, should not be in the business. Bounces should be treated as puzzles, not daemons...er...demons. Alan ASHandRR@TGN.net From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 14 22:55:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA00646 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:47:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from tgn2.tgn.net (tgn.net [205.241.85.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id WAA00636 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialin.tgn.net ([205.241.85.95]) by tgn2.tgn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA01931 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:48:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970315065208.006e1c30@tgn.net> X-Sender: ashandrr@tgn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:52:08 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Alan S. Harrell" Subject: Re: Clueless spam artist of the week... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:28 AM 3/12/97 -0800, Brent forwarded a budding entrepreneur: >--- begin forwarded text > > >From: LOVEALLIE@aol.com >Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:35:58 -0500 (EST) >To: BRENT@greatcircle.com >Subject: LIST QUESTION > >IF POSSIBLE, COULD YOU SEND ME A LIST OF PEOPLE SO THAT I COULD ADD THEM TO >MY LIST? I WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. >ZACH > >--- end forwarded text Surely, you referred the young man to L-Soft. Alan ASHandRR@TGN.net From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 14 23:10:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA00985 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:57:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from tgn2.tgn.net (tgn.net [205.241.85.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id WAA00973 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialin.tgn.net ([205.241.85.95]) by tgn2.tgn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA02110 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:57:48 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970315070144.006e24a0@tgn.net> X-Sender: ashandrr@tgn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 01:01:44 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Alan S. Harrell" Subject: Re: Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:36 AM 3/11/97 -0500, Thom wrote: >Is anybody else having trouble with geocities.com? > >They have been bouncing everything... Is it just me/ > > >Host unknown (Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found) If you have subscribers with the address of "subscriber@mail.geocities.com" bouncing on you, or any other geocities host name, change their subscription address to "subscriber@geocities.com" This was happening to a list owner for a mailing list I used to distribute and when we dropped the host portion, the bounces ceased. Alan ASHandRR@TGN.net From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Mar 15 18:10:48 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA05070 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:59:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net (bolero.rahul.net [192.160.13.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id RAA05063 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:59:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA00774 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:58:16 -0800 Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA13674; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:58:13 -0800 Message-Id: <199703160158.AA13674@jive.rahul.net> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Digest sizes In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970309034649.006de598@tgn.net> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 17:58:12 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan wrote: > > Why can't you simply do as I do and configure your digest to a > maximum of 55K or smaller? A year or two ago, I surveyed my digest subscribers regarding digest size limits and whether they would prefer a limit and several digests a day or no limit and one-a-day. The vast majority preferred no limit and one-a-day. There was *very* strong resistance to limits below about 50K. So, I set a limit of 50K but will not go lower. Lower limits than that would be selectively tailoring my list list to the needs of those who use crippled ISPs and annoy the overwhelming majority of readers to my list. > you. The community of Juno users have became a very powerful force > and is increasingly demanding more and more attention. One of the things I tell my list members is to keep in mind that no one owes you anything just because you are both on the internet. If someone gives you something for free, be thankful. > There are many Internet and Online users in this world that do > not have a plethora of choices for Internet access. This is > especially true of many Juno users. Castigating them for what is > of little choice to them is contemptuous and haughty. Hardly > the spirit of sharing that the Internet was meant to be. And there are people who do not have the capacity to be on the internet at all. I assume you are careful not to punish them for this and offer to mail (for free) a paper copy of your list to anyone that asks for it. Afterall, millions of people do not have internet access, it is they who have clout, not you. Snort. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Mar 15 22:10:54 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA01698 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 22:01:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id WAA01691 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 22:00:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa17859; 15 Mar 97 22:00 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sat, 15 Mar 97 21:42:42 PST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Digest sizes From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 21:36:36 PST In-Reply-To: <199703160158.AA13674@jive.rahul.net> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michelle Dick writes: > Alan wrote: > > There are many Internet and Online users in this world that do > > not have a plethora of choices for Internet access. > And there are people who do not have the capacity to be on the > internet at all. I assume you are careful not to punish them for this > and offer to mail (for free) a paper copy of your list to anyone that > asks for it. Afterall, millions of people do not have internet > access, it is they who have clout, not you. I love this Pity-The-Poor-Innocents line. It reminds me of the old Monty Python bit, the Four Yorkshiremen. Once Naomi Wolf was confronted by an ardent crazed egalitarian during a booksigning and speech thusly: `Why do you write books? Don't you know there are women who can't read?' She Had The Clout, you see. The reply: Why do you talk to me? Don't you know there are women who are deaf? mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "We are writers seeking readers seeking stories..." mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org the command: subscribe nerdnosh From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 16 00:10:58 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA08535 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:02:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) id AAA08525 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:02:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from delysid.gnu.ai.mit.edu (delysid.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.61]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id LAA21814 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 11:38:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by delysid.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id OAA04867; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:44:22 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:44:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199703091944.OAA04867@delysid.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: tower@prep.ai.mit.edu (Leonard H. Tower Jr.) To: today@di.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: (today@di.com) Reply-To: tower@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu Organization: Project GNU, Free Software Foundation, 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA +1-617-542-5942 Home: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA 02143, USA +1-617-623-7739 URL: http://www.ai.mit.edu/~tower/home.html Subject: message size limits Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Todd Day Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:22:17 -0800 Juno doesn't allow e-mail over 61k. Message size limits aren't a feature just of Juno. There are sites, mostly outside the US that limit mail to 25k. 50k seems to be common these days. I would set up 2 digest lists. One with your current policy, and one that did a digest every 25k or 50k. best -len From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 16 00:14:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA08451 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) id AAA08433 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:02:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamjudo.com (router.hamjudo.com [152.160.58.254]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id SAA16668 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (paulh@localhost) by hamjudo.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA29489; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:57:30 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 22:57:29 -0400 (EDTO) From: Paul Haas Reply-To: paulh@hamjudo.com To: Brian cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: ads in mailing lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Brian wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find an email mailing list in which I can post > a buy/sell advertisement? On my lists, it doesn't matter if the posting is an advertizement or not, the important issue is whether it is on topic or not. However, off topic advertizements are very bad. Some lists do not tolerate advertisements at all. For example, don't post an ad to list-managers, even for list management software. There just too many email packages available to have ads and discussions about each one. -- paulh@hamjudo.com http://www.hamjudo.com I've made the big time, Dave Barry made fun of my web page. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 16 00:19:48 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA08389 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:02:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) id AAA08377 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from users.mail.n.ml.org (narnia.mhv.net [199.0.0.118]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id SAA29796 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by users.mail.n.ml.org (8.8.5) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:15:36 -0500 (EST) From: n To: Vince Sabio cc: Gary Bickford , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: "loops back to myself" error In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Vince Sabio wrote: /* snip */ :) >>The original message was received at Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:34:48 -0600 :) >>from outlawnet.com [204.245.248.202] :) >> :) >> ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- :) >> (unrecoverable error) :) >> :) >> ----- Transcript of session follows ----- :) >>553 connect. config error: mail loops back to myself :) >>554 ... Local configuration error This smells suspiciously like a misconfigured /etc/sendmail.cf file, where the machine mail.foo.com is not listed as a site that sendmail should treat as local You should already have a Cwlocalhost line in /etc/sendmail.cf; simply add Cwmail.foo.com under/above[/anywhere really] the localhost line and everything should work properly. /* snip */ -- Daniel Reed Well, to be frank, I'd have to change my name... From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 16 00:25:54 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA07997 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 23:58:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) id XAA07977 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 23:58:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from camel6.mindspring.com (camel6.mindspring.com [204.180.128.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id FAA03079 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 05:33:13 -0800 (PST) From: bh@digital.net Received: from unknown (mule1.mindspring.com [204.180.128.167]) by camel6.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA24455; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:39:09 -0500 (EST) To: "Alan S. Harrell" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: ads in mailing lists Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:37:46 GMT Reply-To: bh@digital.net Message-ID: <33240e28.29394211@mail.mindspring.com> References: <2.2.32.19970310132200.006afd2c@tgn.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970310132200.006afd2c@tgn.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:22:00 -0600, you wrote: >At 08:11 PM 3/8/97 -0800, Kynn wrote: > >>Hello, Alan's brain, is this thing on? Not all "advertisements" >>are spam, and it would be perfectly legitimate for someone to >>run a mailing list equivalent of the various *.forsale.*=20 >>Usenet groups, as long as everyone on the list _wanted_ to be >>there. > > Pejorative aside, spam is any unwanted, unsolicited advertisement, > and largely in the eye of the be-getter. I especially do not want=20 > ads on my mailing lists. If you allow them on yours, so be it. That is the policy of your list. There may be lists that do allow those = kinds of messages as a matter of course. At least he was nice enough to post a message asking if there were any such lists instead of just picking one = and posting to it. before posting an ad, he wanted to make sure that it was = not unwelcome - in other words he wanted to make sure he didn't spam. i think that kind of action should be encouraged, not flamed as you did. Brian From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 16 00:26:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA08281 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:00:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) id AAA08243 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:00:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from hrothgar.gw.com (hrothgar.gw.com [204.80.150.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA09290; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 09:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from hrothgar.gw.com (jpeek@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hrothgar.gw.com (8.8.4/8.7.Alpha.4/1.34.kim) with ESMTP id MAA18734; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 12:57:52 -0500 (EST) From: Jerry Peek X-Face: 4'>h,#cS;REmrM.0o;MLO(rQ\6!tC3|K"`%_&L/5r'?`z?YFA'^?O_2;uhDj}[Ezd'KN;UN ]JY>}7NI!3#)pemuo^HLsy?e&d;~eMDvq{tVqg_JaK.QQ>aXK,)ruQhThx8,.X|_@Foa75CW:E[=@U@5dA'(H`V>Vm{d[)S8AcVpGs1Jw,p6w{LF c?o(}7$@3ani]G[joNpQsJ%^kZhox%7\gVhT%uu|8"WXlT=U1:opS-:9hL{kZgxhGvUf?bJ4E Reply-to: Jerry Peek X-Mailer: MH 6.8.4 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, ftpmail-workers@doc.ic.ac.uk Subject: Reviewers needed for MIIS book chapters Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 09:57:51 -0800 Message-ID: <18685.857757471@hrothgar.gw.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The second edition of O'Reilly's "Managing Internet Information Services" is coming soon. Like the first edition, it has a section about email services: two chapters cover mailing lists in general, two cover Majordomo 1.94.1, and one is about ftpmail. I'm looking for reviewers who'll read the draft section thoroughly and give me detailed feedback. I'd like to get a mix of experts and newbies. I especially need a couple of reviewers who will *do* the installation instructions (not just read them and say "hmm, that seems okay"). If you can help, please send me email. Tell me about your background and your experience with email services. The review starts mid-March. Thanks (from me and the book's future readers)! Reviewers' work is always a big help; it makes the book clearer for other readers. -- Jerry Peek, jpeek@jpeek.com, http://www.jpeek.com/~jpeek/ Substitute "damn" every time you're inclined to write "very"; your editor will delete it and the writing will be just as it should be. --Mark Twain From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 16 00:31:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA08508 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:02:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) id AAA08468 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from cinna.ultra.net (cinna.ultra.net [199.232.56.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA20142 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 18:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager (d115.dial-1.met.ma.ultra.net [209.6.4.115]) by cinna.ultra.net (8.8.5/ult1.04) with SMTP id VAA02740; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 21:12:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970308021232.0038e784@pop.ma.ultranet.com> X-Sender: stanr@pop.ma.ultranet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 21:12:32 -0500 To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Stan Ryckman Subject: Re: FYI: juno.com kicked off of my sites. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:10 PM 3/7/97 -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: [note about terminating service to 77 juno.com users because he can't get juno.com to respond/cooperate re behavior of 3 of their users] I think you're overreacting. You're trying to enlist others in a boycott/battle in which they have probably no interest. You are punishing 77 innocent people, plus the uncountable others who enjoy conversing with them, because of your personal problems dealing with a slow-to-act ISP. No, you are *forcing* them to choose. Support my boycott, or be gone! How much pressure do you expect to put on juno.com by forcing 77 people off your list for nothing they did? Those 77 aren't going to be mad at juno; they're going to be mad at *you*. Do you know how much fun it is to change ISP's, mailing addresses, and all that? How many will do this just for the "privilege" of getting back on your list(s)? >Please don't complain to us -- it won't help, and the situation won't >change until we're convinced juno.com DOES, in fact, police its users. *NOBODY* wants an ISP that "polices" their mail for content. If nothing else, the cost would be prohibitive. The best you can hope for is after-the-fact action. Even then, if your complaint was the *only* one, you shouldn't expect much -- from *ANY* ISP (especially one you are not a customer of). >Unfortunately, to date, all they've proven is that they won't. When >that changes, we'll re-evaluate the situation. Until then, all we can >do is encourage you to find an ISP that cares about its reputation and >its users. > >My apologies for the inconvenience I know this will cause you, but the >situation leaves us no choice. Bull. You could have left your 77 well-behaved subscribers there, and just (a) reject posts from the 3 offenders; and/or (b) rejected new subscribers from juno.com. You had plenty of choices. I think your action was way overboard. At least, from what you've described. Did anyone other than yourself complain to juno? Stan From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 16 00:31:41 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA08049 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 23:59:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) id XAA08041 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 23:59:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id GAA12766 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 06:18:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (spooky.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.3.7]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA18370; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:22:37 -0600 Message-Id: <199703091422.IAA18370@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: FYI: juno.com kicked off of my sites. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Mar 1997 15:10:30 PST." Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 08:23:43 -0600 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq, No matter what others may think of your actions, I'd say you are doing the right thing. You've attempted to contact the management about the problem and gotten nowhere. It now time to turn the problem over to those that have a better chance of getting results from them, their customers. Juno may be a large system, but if they want to stay that way, they need to keep the customers happy. The old saying of 1 angry customer having more impact than 10 happy ones is still true. It was a few years ago that I did the same thing for technical problems with aol.com. I couldn't seem to get their attention no matter how hard I tried. Finally, as a matter of last resort I posted a message similiar to yours to the list giving a warning of 2 weeks time that I was going to terminate all aol members in my lists. Being a technical list, I wanted to give people a chance to continue to get the list and not miss things they may find critical. I gave the list members a few suggested options. First, contact aol management and send them the included problem description and demand a fix. Second, move to a better (and at the time it was easy) provider. Third, is a combination of the above 2. Tell aol why your leaving. This should have the most impact. Fourth, do without the list. It appears that what I couldn't do as an outsider, their customers were able to do rather quickly. The next morning I was contacted by a aol tech manager/vp asking for exact details of the problem. How serious it was, etc. Imagine the shock that someone there actually cared AND had a clue. He actually had some ideas as to the solution to the problem and what needed to be done. This resulted in another rather formal email response from aol asking me not to do the cut in 2 weeks. For some reason they actually needed to pass the message through their legal dept for approval so as to not be promising anything they couldn't deliver. They were actually working on the problem, but it was going to take about a month to deploy. The result is that the actions taken did actually attract attention in management where it was needed. A fix was installed and things got dramaticly better. They still had a long way to go, but the were moving in the right direction. I'm sure that aol would have made the fixes that were needed to reduce the problems that I was seeing at some point in time, but I was fed up then. All of a sudden this problem had a priority level inside the company because their customers knew about it and were about to leave. Also, a much wider audience knew of the problem and if any were asked for a recommendation, aol was not going to be in the list. I think that many people don't realize how much time and effort it takes to run a list. At that time, by getting rid of the problems being caused by 1 provider, I was able to reduce the time I spent by about 50%. --Gene From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 17 07:41:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA15823 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 07:30:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from webster.m-w.com ([206.98.43.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id HAA15775 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 07:30:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by m-w.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.0) id AA02440; Mon, 17 Mar 97 10:21:18 EST Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 10:21:18 EST From: awest@webster.m-w.com (Amy West) Message-Id: <9703171521.AA02440@m-w.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: hosting services Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can anyone point me to some list hosting services Web pages? I've already got info about one, lyris, and I like to look at some others. Thanks, Amy West From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 17 07:46:03 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA17103 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 07:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id HAA17012 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 07:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway.tssi.com [198.147.197.29]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA04698 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 09:36:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA15341 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 09:36:58 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA27876 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 09:36:57 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199703171536.JAA27876@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: message size limits To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 09:36:57 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Message size limits aren't a feature just of Juno. > > There are sites, mostly outside the US that limit mail to 25k. I can't say I've experienced too many problems with message size limits on foreign sites, at least not compared to juno and other 'domestic' sites. (And one of my lists is about 90% addresses outside of the USA.) > I would set up 2 digest lists. One with your current policy, and one > that did a digest every 25k or 50k. Laudable, but not always practical. And I'm not sure how I'd explain the difference in the two digests to subscribers, either. One of my lists gets very active during football season, and it is not unusual for it to have 100 messages in a day, sometimes resulting in a digest of 200K or more. One of the reasons behind digesting is to avoid having subscribers flooded with e-mail messages from an active list, as well as allowing some traffic to be sent during off-peak time periods, assuming such a concept is valid on the Internet these days. (Subscribers who don't mind being flooded can subscribe to the non-digested version.) And while 4 or 5 messages in a day might not be considered a 'flood' by some, I have another list that has been known to have digests of over a megabyte, and I've seen individual messages of 100K. (And not binaries.) A 50K digest limit might cause some messages to get scrambled, as well as result in 20 or more digests being issued in a day. I have more problems with full mailboxes (especially on CIS), than with oversized messages. Multiple digests would seem to me to exacerbate that problem. My policy at present is to warn new subscribers about the potential for large digests, and to mention that juno subscribers (among others) may experience delivery problems. As to Chuq's problems with some juno subscribers, I think his reaction is a bit much, but it's his list and I suspect he wouldn't approve of all of my list administration decisions, either. (And I have on one occasion threatened to blacklist an entire domain because of two abusive subscribers from it, but in my case the domain management took appropriate action against them.) But I'm not sure that juno subscribers have any more leverage with juno 'administration' than we list managers do, because I've not seen any evidence that there is anyone home there. One of the problems with a 'free' service is that there isn't any economic leverage by the subscribers. Even AOL has been known to bend to pressure from its subscribers, and not just class action suits. -- Mike Nolan nolan@tssi.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 17 07:56:55 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA17983 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 07:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id HAA17974 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 07:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (root@augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by math.psu.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA09167; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 10:42:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from math.psu.edu (barr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by augusta.math.psu.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA09061; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 10:42:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703171542.KAA09061@augusta.math.psu.edu> To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: FYI: juno.com kicked off of my sites. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Mar 1997 21:12:32 EST." <2.2.32.19970308021232.0038e784@pop.ma.ultranet.com> References: <2.2.32.19970308021232.0038e784@pop.ma.ultranet.com> X-Face: $+9-wYg.[->94HJ{go[7Q]E!K&hUg7ZhLyCMyq_FU*ca0GazE>^/2BKLcK0bP-'%;Nn?M+am,jlSP>1K$iz@ %'v'FEW{@](U&Ed/}>ju3Ctlr!XwJ27Q)7h2a%"`sz;j:/3EC[mXi@*X@HE1]'ddq$ZX"ePsMyTkeg >zdML.SVvX1W`adGIUD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 10:42:47 -0500 From: Dave Barr Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <2.2.32.19970308021232.0038e784@pop.ma.ultranet.com>, Stan Ryckman w rites: >At 03:10 PM 3/7/97 -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > >[note about terminating service to 77 juno.com users because he can't >get juno.com to respond/cooperate re behavior of 3 of their users] > >I think you're overreacting. I don't think so. Boycotts like what Chuq is doing is a tried-and-true staple of the net. It's how the net gets things done, when sites are uncooperative or doing bad things. Sites like juno with small message size limits are being intentionally unfriendly to users who subscribe to mailing lists. This is _their_ choice, not the users'. Juno _chooses_ to make it hard for users to receive lots of mail. Why should list owners get around painful limits and restrictions which a site has set? Sure, there are short-term and limited gains for a handful of users. The net has a whole deserves more. Chuq and others are doing a service to other potential list owners and users who will also run into this problem. Juno will either fix the problem out of demand from its users, or it will lose customers. That is a choice Juno needs to make, not us. --Dave From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 17 11:41:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA20071 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 11:30:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id LAA20064 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 11:30:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:36:23 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:22:27 -0500 To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Apparent Denial-Of Service Attack on AOL Member Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Cross-posted to listmom-talk and list-managers. The following message was posted to SPAM-L this morning. I thought that it would be of interest over here, as well. I contacted the sender and asked him to send me the list of attacked servers; I have posted it on my Web page in case you would like to know if yours was among the many. Hit it quickly if you intend to hit it at all; I don't plan on leaving it up there for more than a couple of days, lest it become a source of list servers for future attacks. (Sure, there are plenty of places out there for people to get such lists, but I don't want MY server to become one of them.) As such, if you redistribute this message to any non-listmom or potentially non-listmom parties, please remove the URL above. Thanks. - Vince --- begin forwarded text MIME-Version: 1.0 Priority: normal Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:45:27 -0600 Reply-To: Spam Prevention Discussion List Sender: Spam Prevention Discussion List From: J. Ford Organization: Seebeck Computer Center Subject: subscribe To: SPAM-L@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM FYI.....apparently someone doesn't like an aol user. Mail forwarded (with all headers) to abuse@aol.net and abuse@netcom.com -- jf ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Received: from SpoolDir by SEEBECK (Mercury 1.30); 16 Mar 97 17:41:15 CST Return-path: <@UA1VM.UA.EDU:gillb8s@AOL.COM> Received: from UA1VM.UA.EDU by seebeck.ua.edu (Mercury 1.30); 16 Mar 97 17:41:11 CST Received: from UA1VM.UA.EDU by UA1VM.UA.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 3616; Sun, 16 Mar 97 17:36:28 CST Received: from UA1VM.UA.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UA1VM) by UA1VM.UA.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6353; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:36:25 -0600 Received: from UA1VM (NJE origin V2SMTP-N@UA1VM) by UA1VM.UA.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6340; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:36:16 -0600 Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com by UA1VM.UA.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Sun, 16 Mar 97 17:36:11 CST Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA11942; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:20:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from lin-ne3-07.ix.netcom.com(204.32.191.103) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma009073; Sun Mar 16 17:19:18 1997 X-Sender: gillb8s@aol.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:15:42 -0600 To: killies-request@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us, cdrom-l-request@uccvma.ucop.edu, clear-l-request@vm.ucs.ualberta.ca, magic-l-request@american.edu, cfids-l-request@american.edu, cfs-l-request@list.nih.gov, (many, many lists deleted.) From: gillb8s@aol.com (Bill) Subject: subscribe X-PMFLAGS: 36176000 0 subscribe * gillb8s@aol.com end --- end forwarded text - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Because The Only GOOD Spammer is a DEAD Spammer From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 17 11:58:26 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA21950 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 11:54:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from atheria.europa.com (atheria.europa.com [199.2.194.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id LAA21905 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 11:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from thetics.europa.com(really [199.2.194.14]) by atheria.europa.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 11:53:44 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #4 built 1997-Jan-19) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 11:53:43 -0800 (PST) From: kali To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Apparent Denial-Of Service Attack on AOL Member In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ahhh, something similar happened to me. There was a guy that had Page Email and someone subscribed his pager email address to over 100 mailing lists. This wasn't the first time I had had an "atackeee" subscribed to my list. Seems like it is becoming more and more frequent..... -kali On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Vince Sabio wrote: > Cross-posted to listmom-talk and list-managers. > > The following message was posted to SPAM-L this morning. I thought that > it would be of interest over here, as well. I contacted the sender and > asked him to send me the list of attacked servers; I have posted it on my > Web page in case you would like to know if yours was among the many. > > > > Hit it quickly if you intend to hit it at all; I don't plan on leaving > it up there for more than a couple of days, lest it become a source of > list servers for future attacks. (Sure, there are plenty of places out > there for people to get such lists, but I don't want MY server to become > one of them.) > > As such, if you redistribute this message to any non-listmom or > potentially non-listmom parties, please remove the URL above. Thanks. > > - Vince > > --- begin forwarded text > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Priority: normal > Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:45:27 -0600 > Reply-To: Spam Prevention Discussion List > Sender: Spam Prevention Discussion List > From: J. Ford > Organization: Seebeck Computer Center > Subject: subscribe > To: SPAM-L@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM > > FYI.....apparently someone doesn't like an aol user. Mail forwarded > (with all headers) to abuse@aol.net and abuse@netcom.com > > -- jf > > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > > Received: from SpoolDir by SEEBECK (Mercury 1.30); 16 Mar 97 17:41:15 CST > Return-path: <@UA1VM.UA.EDU:gillb8s@AOL.COM> > Received: from UA1VM.UA.EDU by seebeck.ua.edu (Mercury 1.30); > 16 Mar 97 17:41:11 CST > Received: from UA1VM.UA.EDU by UA1VM.UA.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) > with BSMTP id 3616; Sun, 16 Mar 97 17:36:28 CST > Received: from UA1VM.UA.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UA1VM) by UA1VM.UA.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6353; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:36:25 -0600 > Received: from UA1VM (NJE origin V2SMTP-N@UA1VM) by UA1VM.UA.EDU (LMail > V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6340; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:36:16 -0600 > Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com by UA1VM.UA.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) > with TCP; Sun, 16 Mar 97 17:36:11 CST > Received: (from smap@localhost) > by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) > id RAA11942; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:20:49 -0600 (CST) > Received: from lin-ne3-07.ix.netcom.com(204.32.191.103) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com > via smap (V1.3) > id sma009073; Sun Mar 16 17:19:18 1997 > X-Sender: gillb8s@aol.com (Unverified) > Message-Id: > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:15:42 -0600 > To: killies-request@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us, cdrom-l-request@uccvma.ucop.edu, > clear-l-request@vm.ucs.ualberta.ca, magic-l-request@american.edu, > cfids-l-request@american.edu, cfs-l-request@list.nih.gov, > > (many, many lists deleted.) > > From: gillb8s@aol.com (Bill) > Subject: subscribe > X-PMFLAGS: 36176000 0 > > subscribe * gillb8s@aol.com > end > > --- end forwarded text > > > > - Vince S. > wavelet@colossus.arl.mil > > -- > For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- > send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu > -- > Because The Only GOOD Spammer is a DEAD Spammer > > > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 17 12:11:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA23191 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:03:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from web.net (web.net [192.139.37.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id MAA23164 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:03:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.53.6.33](really [198.53.5.94]) by web.net via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 15:05:01 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1 built 1996-Oct-8) X-Sender: gneufeld@alfred.carleton.ca Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 15:04:47 -0500 To: Vince Sabio From: Grant Neufeld Subject: Re: Apparent Denial-Of Service Attack on AOL Member Cc: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:22 PM -0500 97/3/17, Vince Sabio wrote: >The following message was posted to SPAM-L this morning. I thought that >it would be of interest over here, as well. I contacted the sender and >asked him to send me the list of attacked servers; I have posted it on my >Web page in case you would like to know if yours was among the many. In future, it might be more effective to send directly to the postmasters at the hosts in such a message (and also more secure since you're not revealing the list to anyone else). A grep type replace of the characters before the @ symbol with "postmaster" would produce the necessary To: field contents. E.g., replace [^\ \,\r\n\t]+@([^\ \,\r\n\t]+) with postmaster@\1 There's probably a cleaner way to write that, but I tried it on the To: field in the message from your web site, and it did the job. (I didn't send the message, only tried the grep pattern) -- gneufeld@ccs.carleton.ca grant@kagi.com http://arpp.carleton.ca/ O- <*> From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 17 12:56:06 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA26633 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:46:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id MAA26607 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:45:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Mon, 17 Mar 1997 15:52:17 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 15:52:09 -0500 To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Apparent Denial-Of Service Attack on AOL Member Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 15:04 -0500 3/17/97, Grant Neufeld sent everyone: >At 2:22 PM -0500 97/3/17, Vince Sabio wrote: >>The following message was posted to SPAM-L this morning. I thought that >>it would be of interest over here, as well. I contacted the sender and >>asked him to send me the list of attacked servers; I have posted it on my >>Web page in case you would like to know if yours was among the many. > >In future, it might be more effective to send directly to the postmasters >at the hosts in such a message (and also more secure since you're not >revealing the list to anyone else). My point in posting it was to alert the *list owners* -- hence the posting to listmom-talk and list-managers. I assume that the information has long since been forwarded to the server managers -- which, in my book, are a better target for this information than the postmasters (though there will often be some overlap there). Maybe I should add, "If you see your server on this list, alert your server manager to the problem." - Vince Sabio orionsoft@telephonet.com -- If you run a mailing list and are tired of manually processing mail bounces, then you probably need SmartBounce. For more information, send a blank email to . -- Because The Only GOOD Spammer is a DEAD Spammer From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 17 14:11:20 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA04543 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:05:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id OAA04526 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:05:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Mon, 17 Mar 1997 17:12:13 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 17:12:08 -0500 To: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Apparent Denial-Of Service Attack on AOL Member (Correction) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 16:45 -0500 3/17/97, Vince Sabio (that's me) said: >CASE 2: "*" does not work on ANY servers. In this case, why even bother >to notify the postmasters, as you suggested in your first correspondence? Whoops! Stan was *not* the guy who suggested that, Grant was. I realized the error as the message was hitting the server. *sigh* Sorry, Stan. - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Because The Only GOOD Spammer is a DEAD Spammer From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 17 14:19:27 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA04277 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:03:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id OAA04252 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:03:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Mon, 17 Mar 1997 17:10:06 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970317214531.02ac0840@pop.ma.ultranet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 17:10:01 -0500 To: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Apparent Denial-Of Service Attack on AOL Member Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 16:45 -0500 3/17/97, Stan Ryckman said: >At 03:52 PM 3/17/97 -0500, Vince Sabio wrote: > >>My point in posting it was to alert the *list owners* -- hence the posting >>to listmom-talk and list-managers. > >This is all probably unnecessary anyway, right? There was a syntax error >(a "*") in the sub. request, so the listservs would have sent out >(to the AOL victim) a syntax-error message, and that would be that. >No impact on lists; major impact on the AOL user (if he's real), of course. > >Or am I missing something? I'm not sure if the wildcard works on any/all servers hit (I'm not about to start trying it; I have better things to do ), but let's consider two cases: CASE 1: "*" subscribes user to all lists on any/all servers hit: Major impact on the user, and it's worth alerting the list owners and server managers to this situation. CASE 2: "*" does not work on ANY servers. In this case, why even bother to notify the postmasters, as you suggested in your first correspondence? Or am I missing something? (And, even in CASE 2, I *still* think it would be important for list owners and server managers to be aware that there is an attempted denial- of-service attack in progress. The person who made the attempt might return shortly as a *smarter* idiot.) - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Because The Only GOOD Spammer is a DEAD Spammer From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 17 17:10:42 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA17154 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 17:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id RAA17140 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 17:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Mon, 17 Mar 1997 20:08:44 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970318003935.02b6155c@pop.ma.ultranet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 20:08:36 -0500 To: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Apparent Denial-Of Service Attack on AOL Member Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 19:39 -0500 3/17/97, Stan Ryckman sent everyone: >>CASE 1: "*" subscribes user to all lists on any/all servers hit: Major >>impact on the user, and it's worth alerting the list owners and server >>managers to this situation. > >What I wrote was based under the (possibly incorrect) assumption that >all the addressed listservs were LISTSERV(TM), and that LISTSERV(TM) Um, MANY of the addresses said "listserv", yes. You might want to explain to ISPs like Netcom -- whose *Majordomo*'s address is "listserv@netcom.com" -- that they are really running ListServ. ;-) Seriously, I think that "listserv@" has become pretty standard. Once could hardly conclude that all the addressees were ListServs, just from the addresses (and, in fact, I know of a few of them that were not). >Now I think that some went to xxxx-request type addresses, which go to >the list owners, but how could they miss that monster "To:" header or Again, xxxx-request does not necessarily fgo to the list owners, In fact, IME< they typically do NOT go to the list owners. >Your other note, pointing out that I didn't suggest that, clarified things, >thanks. I've made similar attribution errors in the past, so I can't >be very critical about that one, can I? :-) Still hate it when I screw up. >The problem is that we don't know who did it; we just know the victim's >email address. When the *smarter* idiot comes back, it will undoubtedly >be by a different path and a different disguise anyway, and possibly >with a different victim. I wouldn't be too sure. These things are usually done with retribution in mind, not just as random pranks. Once/If he realizes that he didn't accomplish his goal (*if* he really did not, which as you point out, is quite likely, since it's unlikely that there are very many MLMs out there that'd let you gloablly subscribe that way), he will likely try it again, and it is just as likely that the target would be the same, IMO. Idiots are, after all, idiots. That's why we call them that. ;-) >What I'd *hoped* to accomplish with my post was to kill this thread on these >two lists (but I forgot to mention HITLER and NAZIs! Now I have! :) Hmmm ... kill a post with a post. Interesting. >It's probably worth discussing, but over on the SPAM-L list. I doubt that it applies to SPAM-L, to be honest. I think it is better discussed over here, since it is really a list-management issue. Roughly 50 hits on the Web server in the 20 minutes after the original post hit these two lists might underscore that point. However, I agree that the topic has pretty well been beaten in to the ground. - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Because The Only GOOD Spammer is a DEAD Spammer From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 17 20:57:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA02535 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 20:52:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id UAA02520 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 20:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lev@localhost) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA14702; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:50:48 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:50:47 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Kayak X-Sender: lev@kirkwood.hoosier.net To: Chuq Von R cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, Gene Rackow Subject: Re: FYI: juno.com kicked off of my sites. In-Reply-To: <199703091422.IAA18370@antares.mcs.anl.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq I do think you are reasonable. - On an question which is not black or white. When things are being passed out free, often there is abuse. Juno sooner or later will have to face pressure; just as well now. It's a question whether they'll police their uses a bit, or just dissolve and become some other "service" in the advertizing industry. An individual depending on Juno should be prepared for some inconveniences or even information-deprivations. - Paul --- "To have doubted one's first principles is the mark of a civilized man." - Oliver Wendell Holmes From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 21 15:28:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA22272 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:06:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id OAA19235 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:47:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from uhura.ici.net (uhura.ici.net [204.97.252.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-970308-2) with ESMTP id OAA21612 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:18:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALNAME (d-ma-mansfield-158.ici.net [207.180.8.167]) by uhura.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA15735 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:20:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:20:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703212220.RAA15735@uhura.ici.net> X-Sender: lbm@mail.ici.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Linda B. Merims" Subject: Trouble with Compuserve Subscribers? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Since Tuesday, I have been receiving complaints from the Compuserve subscribers on my listserve that they are not getting my once-a-day Digest. However, I do not get any bounces from Compuserve. (I am not the sysadmin on the sending machine and do not have access to the detailed mail logs, just e-mail bounces to the list manager. Software is Smartlist.) Is anybody else having these troubles with Compuserve? Do you know what is going on? Are there any generally-known e-mail limitations that Compuserve customers have to cope with that could affect their ability to receive a listserve? For example - a limit on how many messages can be in their inbox - a limit on the size of individual messages - limit on the total size of incoming messages - what happens to the mail when each of these occurs - some kind of e-mail spam filter that throws away incoming mail when too many messages come from the same site in within a short period of time - flakiness when the person uses a text alias for the usual weirdo Compuserve numeric ids I would appreciate any clue you could give me as to what is going on. Thank you, Linda B. Merims lbm@ici.net Massachusetts, USA From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 21 16:36:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA04680 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:26:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id QAA04553 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:26:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2A VAX) id 37; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:24:42 PST Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:24:39 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: lbm@ici.net CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009B199C.D6CBFA66.37@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: RE: Trouble with Compuserve Subscribers? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"lbm@ici.net" "Linda B. Merims" 21-MAR-1997 15:29:06.57 > Subj: Trouble with Compuserve Subscribers? Linda, > > Since Tuesday, I have been receiving complaints from the > Compuserve subscribers on my listserve that they are not > getting my once-a-day Digest. However, I do not get > any bounces from Compuserve. (I am not the sysadmin on > the sending machine and do not have access to the detailed > mail logs, just e-mail bounces to the list manager. Software > is Smartlist.) > > Is anybody else having these troubles with Compuserve? > I haven't seen any problems personally, except... > Do you know what is going on? > Compuserve had a couple of bum MX records in their DNS data. It was apparently reloaded with a corrected zone file at about 04:00 this morning, EST. > Are there any generally-known e-mail limitations that Compuserve > customers have to cope with that could affect their ability > to receive a listserve? For example > > - a limit on how many messages can be in their inbox > > - a limit on the size of individual messages > > - limit on the total size of incoming messages > > - what happens to the mail when each of these occurs > > - some kind of e-mail spam filter that throws away incoming > mail when too many messages come from the same site in > within a short period of time > > - flakiness when the person uses a text alias for the usual > weirdo Compuserve numeric ids > > I would appreciate any clue you could give me as to what is going > on. > > Thank you, > > Linda B. Merims > lbm@ici.net > Massachusetts, USA > -HWM From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 21 19:36:06 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA29887 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:21:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.21.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id TAA29868 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2 (unverified [205.160.21.66]) by ec3.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:19:25 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:19:25 -0500 Subject: Possible spam? Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk SmileySmak@aol.com appears to be subscribing to every list starting with letter a thru to z. Either this person is up to no good or poor SmileySmak is being bombed. Gess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Gess Shankar pax vobiscum gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com Earth Channel Communications, LLC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 21 20:36:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA03527 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 20:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from kparker.nai.net (kparker.nai.net [208.133.166.213]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id UAA03519 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 20:23:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (admin@localhost) by kparker.nai.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA20760 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:24:02 -0500 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:24:02 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Parker Reply-To: Ken Parker To: List Managers Subject: Re: Possible spam? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm not sure WHAT'S going on! I've been recently getting some people from AOL who have been acting rather abusive in their attempts to leave my list: One sending a post to the list with "REMOVE, REMOVE, REMOVE!!!" in the body. There's another strange case, also from AOL, who tried to forward over 10 digests to my list (which puts new subscribers in digest mode, requiring them to enter another command if they want regular mail). Fortunately, I'm using Listproc 6.0c, which bounces on duplicate Message ID's, so they didn't make it to the list. Well, yesterday, I Unzubscribed him, but today, he was back on the list and tried forwarding more digests (always with the word, "unsubscribe" added to the front of the message). Thinking someone's repeat-zubscribing him, I simply put a "Postpone" on his record. I'm a bit puzzled, wondering if people ARE being subscribed against their will. (And, being Listproc, they'd have to be zubscribed via E-Mail address spoofing, too...) Anyone else? Ken Parker (http://kparker.nai.net) On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Gess Shankar wrote: > SmileySmak@aol.com appears to be subscribing to every list starting > with letter a thru to z. Either this person is up to no good or poor > SmileySmak is being bombed. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 21 21:06:02 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA08250 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:05:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id VAA08243 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:05:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from dave (dave.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.50]) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA10263 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:05:56 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970321230525.00b30e60@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:05:25 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: Possible spam? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:24 PM 3/21/97 -0500, you wrote: > I'm a bit puzzled, wondering if people ARE being subscribed >against their will. (And, being Listproc, they'd have to be >zubscribed via E-Mail address spoofing, too...) > > Anyone else? While I've experienced occasional prank subscriptions during the two years that I've been running lists, the attempts (as evidenced by subscribe requests differing from 'Received:' headers) seem to have increased dramatically over the past week or so. Fortunately, just prior to that, I upgraded to Majordomo 1.94.1 and invoked the 'confirm' option for new subscriptions, which so far has prevented any serious trouble. That is, except for one instance where a hacker subscribed to several lists via a hacked account, then forwarded the hacked account to an anonymous remailer account, which was then forwarded to the victim. I think anyone running a busy list without some form of subscription confirmation is in for some serious unpleasantness, as the 'net seems to be attracting more and more boneheads of late, and sending fakemail is just too easy. Finally, a question: I've heard that there's a piece of hackerware available which is designed to subscribe a victim to a large number of lists. Can anyone confirm this rumour? I checked the "Denial of Service Page" at http://www.student.tdb.uu.se/~t95hhu/c-war.html, but didn't see anything specifically related to lists. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 21 23:20:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA21656 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:19:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id XAA21570 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:19:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00914; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:19:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970321230525.00b30e60@armchair.mb.ca> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:47:30 -0800 To: Dave Voorhis , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Possible spam? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:05 PM -0800 3/21/97, Dave Voorhis wrote: >I think anyone running a busy list without some form of subscription >confirmation is in for some serious unpleasantness, as the 'net seems to be >attracting more and more boneheads of late, and sending fakemail is just >too easy. I will agree with this completely. (sigh). >Finally, a question: I've heard that there's a piece of hackerware >available which is designed to subscribe a victim to a large number of >lists. Can anyone confirm this rumour? I haven't seen it. I've never seen evidence of it leak onto places like Alta Vista. But you can bet it exists. There are too many people using the same spam attacks onto my sites in the same way with the same patterns for it to be anything else -- even in terms of written instructions. Someone's passing around toys, and idiots too stupid to make their own toys are using them to screw the rest of us over. If it were just me vs. the damn hacker, I could accept the challenge. But the hacker keeps handing guns out to toddlers, and the toddlers keep shooting people in the foot. Which makes me want to find the original hacker even more.... -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 21 23:24:00 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA21655 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id XAA21560 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:19:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00911; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:19:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:44:36 -0800 To: Ken Parker , List Managers From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Possible spam? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:24 PM -0800 3/21/97, Ken Parker wrote: > I'm not sure WHAT'S going on! I've been recently getting some >people from AOL who have been acting rather abusive in their >attempts to leave my list: One sending a post to the list with >"REMOVE, REMOVE, REMOVE!!!" in the body. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of spam going down, and a lot of users, including many AOL users, being forged onto list. Not all of those users react rationally. At one level I understand -- if you suddenly appear on 100 mail lists, you might not react rationally, either, but they hurt their own purposes. Especially with the abusive ones, I send them a note on how to do this right, and Cc: the AOL postmasters. Many times I get abuse back, but then, since most spamm-ees are folks who p*ss someone off on usenet, another mail list or IRC or some other chat, you don't get many polite spammees in the first place... I've had a bunch of activity today coming from tesser.com and iglou.com. Fortunately, the tesser.com one was DNS trackable back to a PPP dialup port, so I've sent a note to the postmaster there, because he can find out who was logged on at the time. The stuff coming from iglou.com was clearly the same guy, so he's playing from multiple accounts. I also had some lesser spam from nlights.net. I'm still looking for a clean way to put a procmail filter in front of my server and trap this until I can get majordomo up and upgrade all my stuff. thought I had one today, but it didn't quite work. It's unfortunately tough without just wiring in known sites, and those change constantly. Out there, somewhere, are scripts that these brownshirts are using to do this. Someone's put together some tools, and others are just using them -- the attack mode on my site is too similar for different people to be doing the same thing (among other things, same pattern of lists; they don't use all, but they all tend ot use the same subset of lists on my site, more or less based on when they last looked at my site and grabbed a site listing...). Some of the comment field stuff is also fairly standard (but not standard enough to trap by. If this current rate of this stuff keeps up (I'm seeing a spike the last couple of days), I'm probably going to put in a kicker that'll stop the spammers, which I won't mention because I don't want them to know what I've got planned and I assume they're listening... (hi, guys... how's the wife and kids? Oh, yeah, spammers have no life...). I haven't to date because it'll cause some user inconvenience.... sigh. With any luck, I have enough info to nail that one twit on tesser, and the postmaster will nail him to a wall for me. If so, that'll be #6 in the last year. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Mar 22 01:51:06 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id BAA27235 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:45:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from proxy3.ba.best.com (proxy3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id BAA27217 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from shellx.best.com (shellx.best.com [206.86.0.11]) by proxy3.ba.best.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id BAA03868; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:42:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shellx.best.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) id BAA01108; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:11:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:11:37 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703220911.BAA01108@shellx.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: admin@kparker.nai.net CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@shellx.best.com In-reply-to: (message from Ken Parker on Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:24:02 -0500 (EST)) Subject: AOL unsubscribes Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:24:02 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Parker I'm not sure WHAT'S going on! I've been recently getting some people from AOL who have been acting rather abusive in their attempts to leave my list: One sending a post to the list with "REMOVE, REMOVE, REMOVE!!!" in the body. Nothing to worry about; this is normal behavior for some AOL subscribers (not the majority but even a small percentage adds up with such a large ISP). Ive been dealing with this since AOL came into existance. More than just about any other set of net folks, AOLers seem to have a sense of entitlement. Many just dont understand the net and seem to think their money is paying for us all to be at their beck and call 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week. Ive had people say as much to me. Freebee trial periods don't help matters. You'll get this from lots of newbies from all sorts of ISPs and it comes in waves. People who think everything needs to happen immediately and who dont know what a mailing list is when they sign up for one. If they get really abusive or mailbomb the list, I report them to the postmasters. Good luck, Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Mar 22 15:53:47 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA03699 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 15:49:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id PAA03692 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 15:49:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA24321; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 15:49:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 15:35:39 -0800 To: Brian Behlendorf , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Possible spam? Cc: List Managers Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:53 PM -0800 3/22/97, Brian Behlendorf wrote: >So, while I'm glad all these lists required confirmation, I'm saddened >that the attacked has little way of tracking down the attacker themselves, >as mlm's typically don't include the requesting message in the response. Well, in theory, they shouldn't need to. (sigh). I checked, FWIW, and my sites weren't part of the attack on you, or I'd send you the headers. That's why I keep logs of all messages... chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Mar 22 17:21:20 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA06117 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 17:19:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id RAA06109 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 17:19:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA27494; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 17:18:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 17:05:59 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, listmom-talk@skyweyr.com From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Current Spam sources... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Okay, I've spent some serious time in my logs and backtracking the current spam attacks (which are still on-going, by the way. One interesting note is that some/many of the people being attacked are being attacked repeatedly, especially the people from engr.csulb.edu.) So far, in the current attack which started within the last week or so, I've identified about 25 different accounts being attacked. Some once, some many times, some with only a couple of subscriptions on my site, some with "many". So far, ALL of the spam I've seen has originated from one of four places: nlights.net *dial-access.att.net oscva.orbital.com iglou.com The dial-access.att.net is starred because the spam is coming from all sorts of different dialup addresses located in various states, not one dialup location. >From what I can tell, it's one, maybe two people. They operate from different accounts, not staying on any one any length of time, and sometimes seem to be coming from two at once. I'm guessing they're hacked into these places and coming from some OTHER place... ALL of the spamming, and there's a lot of it, is originating from these four places, at least on my servers, and if you have the ability to filter on Received lines before it gets to your daemon, you should be able to filtr them out of your command stream and make them disappear, at least until they change locations again. There are certain patterns to their postings that make it easy to find once you look for them, but I haven't quite found a way to automate the search yet.... On top of that, while I was grubbing through logs, I found a couple of isolated spams not related to these that came from ouhub.moa.net And I'm getting what MIGHT be some spam, or might be something I don't quite understand, from: sikkim.cloud9.net They seem to have some kind of web interface that might be legit, might be not, but whihc defintely was used to spam a couple of users, so I backtracked it, cleared out the other users that were put in via that interface, and stuffed a block on it. Going to their home page doens't tell me a damn thing about what's going on on the site, so I'm curious but right now, I'll be paranoid, too. That's what I've found here. As of right now, I have these addresses blocked out of my input stream, so tehy can spam away. In fact, they have been most of the afternoon.. (grin). chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Mar 22 23:05:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA20740 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 23:04:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (grolsch.cs.ubc.ca [142.103.6.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id XAA20694 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 23:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs.ubc.ca (uucp@news.cs.ubc.ca [142.103.6.2]) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA26914 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 23:02:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cs.ubc.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) id XAA06756 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 23:02:29 -0800 (PST) >Received: from mornir.gweep.bc.ca by edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca (Sendmail 8.7.5) with SMTP id WAA08623; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 22:50:43 -0800 Received: from cs.ubc.ca by nnrp.cs.ubc.ca; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 23:02 PST Received: from mornir.gweep.bc.ca by edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca (Sendmail 8.7.5) with SMTP id WAA08623; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 22:50:43 -0800 Received: (qmail 5581 invoked by uid 1180); 23 Mar 1997 06:50:41 -0000 Cc: recipient.list.not.shown:; Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: massive list subscription bombs (was Possible spam?) X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.29 #1 Wed Mar 19 20:11:02 PST 1997 X-Geek: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/doc/geek.html X-Homepage: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds X-PGP-Ox6E86B769: This key is obsolete, please discard it. X-PGP-Ox979D0B09: A9 3E 1E CB 86 09 B1 E9 3C 1A 0E F6 49 F9 5D 99 Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.92) From: edmonds@cs.ubc.ca (Brian Edmonds) Date: 22 Mar 1997 22:50:37 -0800 Message-ID: <37hgi3rtj6.fsf@mornir.gweep.bc.ca> Lines: 37 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.2.40/XEmacs 19.14 In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:44:36 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm copying this up to nana.email, as it appears to be a concerted attack via email, rather than an isolated incident. As I discuss below, it may also related to news, but seems primarily a mail problem. Chuq Von Rospach writes: > Oh, yeah. There's a lot of spam going down, and a lot of users, > including many AOL users, being forged onto list. For the past week I've been noticing a sharp increase in zubscribe activity on my lists, including a number of people zubscribing to an unusual spectrum of lists. Most of the latter I've manually removed proactively. This attack has been somewhat unusual in that the lists that are being attacked are not the digest lists, which the server advertises, but the regular versions. These are widely advertised in the PAML and such, but most obvious attacks I've dealt with before this have been vectored via the server's lists command, and thus the digests. > I'm still looking for a clean way to put a procmail filter in front of > my server and trap this until I can get majordomo up and upgrade all > my stuff. Sorry, can't help with the procmail, but I highly recommend majordomo 1.94 (and up). Last night I finally got tired of all the people who were obviously being indirectly mailbombed through my lists, bit the bullet, and upgraded my majordomo from 1.93 to 1.94.1. Presto chango, no more wild subscription sprees. I did get one interesting bounce of a confirm message today from a bad address someone tried to subscribe. It was one of those .REMOVE anti-spam doctored addresses a number of people use for news postings. This leads me to believe someone is either randomly harvesting people to attack from news postings, or is running an active campaign against the posters on particular news groups. Brian. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 23 05:36:00 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id FAA10743 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 05:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.21.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id FAA10734 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 05:29:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2 (unverified [205.160.21.66]) by ec3.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:28:02 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:28:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Current Spam sources... Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 22 Mar 97 at 17:05, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > So far, ALL of the spam I've seen has originated from one of four > places: nlights.net > *dial-access.att.net > oscva.orbital.com > iglou.com The att.net dial-up is involved even in oscva.orbital.com. Another site also in the att.net thing is: smtp.gte.net as in: Received: from smtp.gte.net (unverified [206.124.65.252]) by ec2.earthchannel.com ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:26:18 -0500 Received: from smtp.gte.net (230.los-angeles-005.ca.dial-access.att.net [207.147.204.230]) by smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/) via SMTP id JAA10235 In addition to subscribing, the forgeries are also sending information files and file requests to the victims. I have turned off all file requests, just in case a new site turns up and requests 100's of file sends swamping my connection to the net. Gess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Gess Shankar pax vobiscum gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com Earth Channel Communications, LLC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 23 08:20:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA20123 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id IAA20108; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:15:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA13918; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:16:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 07:56:31 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, listmom-talk@greatcircle.com From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: New spam sources... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One new spam source from the current attack. They only used this once last night on each of my servers, but it's clearly the same person/group. The useful header for filtering is: (I'm filtering off of the crosschecked line, since that's where this is coming from. It looks like they're spoofing as the site they're sending to here, which is a new wrinkle in their attack if so). Received: from pop1-wcom.uu.net by pop1-wcom.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: custsvc-4.bv.sgi.net [208.195.210.52]) Also, heard from nlights.com, and he says the attack through his site was coming from mattblack@audiophile.com, and all traffic from that site's been banned. I'll let you know if I see any further traffic through nlight, but that was definitely one of the accounts I've seen in the spam. Whether he was testing on himself or whether there's some confusion at nlight,w e'll see, but they're responding and working to close the hole at the very least (yippee!) chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 23 10:35:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA22111 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 10:34:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.21.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id KAA22104 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 10:34:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2 (unverified [205.160.21.66]) by ec3.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:30:50 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:30:49 -0500 Subject: Re: New spam sources... Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 23 Mar 97 at 7:56, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Also, heard from nlights.com, and he says the attack through his > site was coming from mattblack@audiophile.com, and all traffic from > that site's been banned. This is odd. I thought mattblack@audiophile.com was one of the victims, as this address has been subscribed to one of my lists repeatedly. May be just likes getting mail, besides bombing other mail boxes? :-) Gess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Gess Shankar pax vobiscum gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com Earth Channel Communications, LLC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 23 11:35:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA23555 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 11:21:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.wco.com (shell.wco.com [199.4.94.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id LAA23547 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 11:21:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from default (volans116.wco.com [207.48.88.116]) by shell.wco.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA22543 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 11:20:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970323111951.010d9afc@mail.wco.com> X-Sender: 2bits@mail.wco.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 11:20:04 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Todd O." <2bits@wco.com> Subject: Cloud9.net (was Current Spam sources...) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 22 Mar 1997, chuqui@plaidworks.com wrote: >And I'm getting what MIGHT be some spam, or might be something I don't >quite understand, from: > > sikkim.cloud9.net > >They seem to have some kind of web interface that might be legit, might >be not, but whihc defintely was used to spam a couple of users, I think cloud9, itself, is OK. I just searched and found one of my subscribers, supersid@cloud9.net, joined one of my lists in May 1996, switched to a digest version in July, and switched to a regular version in September, where s/he remained without incident until March 20 when the account started boucing mail due to a "user unknown" error. If you are having trouble with a cloud9 account, I would suspect the account, not the site as the source of your trouble. Todd -- Todd Ourston <2bits@wco.com> Marin County, California From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 23 13:50:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id NAA27054 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:45:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id NAA27047 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:45:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA19325; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:45:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970323111951.010d9afc@mail.wco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:32:56 -0800 To: "Todd O." <2bits@wco.com>, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Cloud9.net (was Current Spam sources...) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:20 AM -0800 3/23/97, Todd O. wrote: >If you >are having trouble with a cloud9 account, I would suspect the account, >not the site as the source of your trouble. Problem is not cloud9 accounts, but accounts on distant machines being subscribed via some kind of web interface ON cloud9. At least one of which was a spam, but some of the ones I investigated yesterday frankly looked legitimate, so I dunno. But in any event, if they have done a web interface to my site, it wasn't with my approval (and if anyone asks, I say no, because I don't want to be responsible for sites that break when I cahnge things, and don't have time to coordinate...), so I'm not overly worried... chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 23 16:35:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA07945 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 16:24:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (duticai.twi.tudelft.nl [130.161.159.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id QAA07927 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 16:24:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from winfave@localhost) by duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA02710; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 01:23:39 +0100 (MET) From: Alexander Verbraeck Message-Id: <199703240023.BAA02710@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> Subject: More new addresses for .ignored To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 01:23:38 +0100 (MET) Cc: winfave@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl, winfpet@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I put a filter on domains nlights.net and wcom.uu.net among others, and just found the following three users being subscribed and bombed with useless INFO commands (the filter preventing this to happen): quynhle@erols.com trdchau@erols.com tran@addis.net Kind regards, Alexander Verbraeck List Manager BPR-L, DYNMOD-L ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Alexander Verbraeck Delft University of Technology Department of Systems Engineering, Policy Analysis and Management Jaffalaan 5 P.O. Box 5015, 2600 GA Delft The Netherlands Tel: +31 15 2783805 Secr: +31 15 2788380 Fax: +31 15 2783429 e-mail: A.Verbraeck@sepa.tudelft.nl List manager BPR-L, DYNMOD-L http://www.sepa.tudelft.nl/~alexandv/ See also ..../bpr-l.html ----------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 23 17:51:07 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA09749 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 17:39:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.21.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id RAA09741 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 17:39:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2 (unverified [205.160.21.66]) by ec3.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 20:36:29 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 20:36:28 -0500 Subject: Re: More new addresses for .ignored Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com In-reply-to: <199703240023.BAA02710@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 24 Mar 97 at 1:23, Alexander Verbraeck wrote: > I put a filter on domains nlights.net and wcom.uu.net among others, > and just found the following three users being subscribed and bombed > with useless INFO commands (the filter preventing this to happen): > > quynhle@erols.com > trdchau@erols.com > tran@addis.net > I got the same guys too. More importantly the sources they are coming from are as follows. I am especially curious about: kpham@spg-as77s36.erols.com. Is this address that of the spammer? 1. Received: from misl.mcp.com (unverified [199.177.202.10]) by ec2.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 18:43:37 -0500 Received: from misl.mcp.com (kpham@spg-as77s36.erols.com [207.172.38.36]) by misl.mcp.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA15047 2. Received: from rmi.net (unverified [166.93.8.14]) by ec2.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 18:38:56 -0500 Received: from rmi.net (spg-as77s36.erols.com [207.172.38.36]) by rmi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA03286 3. Received: from pop1-wcom.uu.net (unverified [198.6.100.22]) by ec2.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 18:34:25 -0500 Received: from pop1-wcom.uu.net by pop1-wcom.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: spg-as77s36.erols.com [207.172.38.36]) id QQcieg08470; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 23:34:05 GMT What fun. Gess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Gess Shankar pax vobiscum gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com Earth Channel Communications, LLC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 23 23:35:59 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA28725 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 23:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (duticai.twi.tudelft.nl [130.161.159.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id XAA28718 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 23:23:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from winfave@localhost) by duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA10701; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 08:22:26 +0100 (MET) From: Alexander Verbraeck Message-Id: <199703240722.IAA10701@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> Subject: Re: More new addresses for .ignored To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 08:22:25 +0100 (MET) Cc: winfave@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl, winfpet@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Tonight, I went through last month's listprocessor trace files (sigh), and found the following addresses through nlights.net, oscva.orbital.com, dial-access.att.net, wcom.uu.net, and iglou.com, where the firstname/ lastname matched username and first word in the domain of the e-mail address. You can check for these addresses as well; please remind that the existing addresses can also be legitimately subscribed to a list; the firstname / lastname will then be more "normal". ital@promo.net hotbiz1@concentric.net albert.kooistra@tip.nl FREEWAY@DM1.COM WEBRUNNER@FOXNET.NET EUROS@WORLDNET.ATT.NET TLAZ@INFOSPACE.COM alamo@netvigator.com artshell@aol.com SUSAN140@JUNO.COM bigprofit@fullmkt.com buster@pc211-58.barksdale.af.mil ONESOURCE@AUTORESPONDER.NET health711@savetrees.com CTL@ESCAPE.COM karen@onth.com jean_luc@fullnet.net DIVIDUAL@HOTMAIL.COM abc46@juno.com rckhrd_69@hotmail.com hattrick@laplaza.org The bottom three came in during the last few hours and were filtered out before subscribing. Kind regards, Alexander Verbraeck List Manager BPR-L, DYNMOD-L ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Alexander Verbraeck Delft University of Technology Department of Systems Engineering, Policy Analysis and Management Jaffalaan 5 P.O. Box 5015, 2600 GA Delft The Netherlands Tel: +31 15 2783805 Secr: +31 15 2788380 Fax: +31 15 2783429 e-mail: A.Verbraeck@sepa.tudelft.nl List manager BPR-L, DYNMOD-L http://www.sepa.tudelft.nl/~alexandv/ See also ..../bpr-l.html ----------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 23 23:40:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA28887 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 23:34:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (duticai.twi.tudelft.nl [130.161.159.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id XAA28880 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 23:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from winfave@localhost) by duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA10956; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 08:33:17 +0100 (MET) From: Alexander Verbraeck Message-Id: <199703240733.IAA10956@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> Subject: Re: Current Spam sources... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 08:33:16 +0100 (MET) Cc: winfave@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl, winfpet@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl, chuq@apple.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [I repost a previous attempt without a long list of logs; if anyone is interested in these, I can send them personally in an e-mail; maybe the long posting makes it to the list as well] > Okay, I've spent some serious time in my logs and backtracking the > current spam attacks (which are still on-going, by the way. One > interesting note is that some/many of the people being attacked are > being attacked repeatedly, especially the people from engr.csulb.edu.) > > So far, ALL of the spam I've seen has originated from one of four places: > > nlights.net > *dial-access.att.net > oscva.orbital.com > iglou.com Dear Chuq, My lists are always under heavy attack from dozens of places (both by spam and by bogus subscriptions, or by mailbombing existing, unknowing users). I was hit by the above domains as well, and had about 50% of the bogus subscriptions in one of the other of today's postings. I have the feeling that the above spam attacks ORIGINATE from csulb.edu, but I might be wrong, of course, so if anyone plans on acting or placing a trap, please do it careful. The person I will mention below might as well be a victim like some of the rest. I found out that most of the engr.csulb.edu addresses in fact DID exist. black@engr.csulb.edu was, until recently, the address of the postmaster of the domain: 220 yei.csulb.edu ESMTP Sendmail 8.8.5/8.7.3; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 12:24:58 -0800 () VRFY postmaster 250 EXPN postmaster 250- 250 Postmasters are always a wanted target of spammers... Then there is the following. I traced ALL mailings from iglou, att.net, nlights.net, etc. over the past four months (I currently keep logs a looong time), as I found out in previous cases that spammers first try at least SOMETHING using their OWN account to see if it works. In this case, the bell rang with the account EUNK@CSULB.EDU. An existing account that was the FIRST (Feb 28) to start poking around my lists using some of the above domains. But there is more. EUNK@CSULB.EDU was the ONLY ADDRESS that UNSUBSCRIBED itself from the lists RIGHT AFTER it was subscribed, using ALL OF THE FAKED DOMAINS! Well, if you try to be nasty, you NEVER unsub! There is even a REPLY to a mail of the list (e.g. to the SUB message) using iglou.com. This started BEFORE the Remal Amai (reverse of I am a lamer) words were first used. The first account with Remal Amai was eunk@csulb.edu... So, my suspicion rests with this user: 220 yei.csulb.edu ESMTP Sendmail 8.8.5/8.7.3; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 12:24:32 -0800 () VRFY eunk 250 Eun-Kyoung Lee But, like I said: I CAN BE WRONG. I do not have the time to followup on this, so if any of you could see whether there issomething here, please feel free to act. I include the entire trace of eunk@csulb.edu below, so you can judge for yourself. [I cut the trace, as this makes the e-mail probably too long for list-managers]. A second user I just found when going through the logs that subscribed AND UNSUBSCRIBED using oscva.orbital.com (sounds VERY suspicious, but is, of course, no proof) is mattblack@audiophile.com... Kind regards, Alexander Verbraeck (tired) List Manager BPR-L, DYNMOD-L ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Alexander Verbraeck Delft University of Technology Department of Systems Engineering, Policy Analysis and Management Jaffalaan 5 P.O. Box 5015, 2600 GA Delft The Netherlands Tel: +31 15 2783805 Secr: +31 15 2788380 Fax: +31 15 2783429 e-mail: A.Verbraeck@sepa.tudelft.nl List manager BPR-L, DYNMOD-L http://www.sepa.tudelft.nl/~alexandv/ See also ..../bpr-l.html ----------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 07:36:15 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA29014 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 07:21:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from night.primate.wisc.edu (night.primate.wisc.edu [144.92.43.19]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id HAA29007 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 07:21:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from junkyard@localhost) by night.primate.wisc.edu (8.8.4/8.8.2) id JAA03183; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:23:52 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:23:51 -0600 From: junkyard@primate.wisc.edu (Software Development) To: gess@earthchannel.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: New spam sources... References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.58.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: ; from Gess Shankar on Mar 23, 1997 13:30:49 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gess Shankar writes: > On 23 Mar 97 at 7:56, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > Also, heard from nlights.com, and he says the attack through his > > site was coming from mattblack@audiophile.com, and all traffic from > > that site's been banned. > > This is odd. I thought mattblack@audiophile.com was one of the > victims, as this address has been subscribed to one of my lists > repeatedly. May be just likes getting mail, besides bombing other > mail boxes? :-) That was my impression as well, as mattblack has been repeatedly subscribed to mailing lists at my site. -- Paul DuBois dubois@primate.wisc.edu Home page: http://www.primate.wisc.edu/people/dubois Software: http://www.primate.wisc.edu/software From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 08:22:55 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA02944 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 08:16:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mule0.mindspring.com (mule0.mindspring.com [204.180.128.166]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id IAA02935 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 08:16:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [38.12.203.227] (ip227.san-francisco10.ca.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.203.227]) by mule0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA08384 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:15:11 -0500 X-Sender: themet@pop.mindspring.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199703240900.BAA02286@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 08:15:10 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Mark E. Taylor" Subject: Re:Cloud9.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I recently had an e-mail forger from Cloud9. He set up an UCE using my list address as the reply to. He also included my name as well. However the person who did it was easily traced (not the best of forgeries) and Cloud9 removed him right away. Mark From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 09:42:19 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id JAA06758 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:33:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from acadcomp.cmp.ilstu.edu (acadcomp.cmp.ilstu.edu [138.87.1.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id JAA06719 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:32:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [138.87.143.23] by acadcomp.cmp.ilstu.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA25637; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:31:15 -0600 Message-Id: <9703241731.AA25637@acadcomp.cmp.ilstu.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gary Klass" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:35:29 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Current Spam sources... In-Reply-To: <199703240733.IAA10956@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk possibly related to the mattblack and subsequent bogus subscribers, I've received a series of reposts of previous messages to my list from someone @homeshopping.com.br ----------------------------- message follows ------------------------------ >From "bhzrede"@br.homeshopping.com.br Mon Mar 24 11:11:53 1997 Message-Tag: 190 Received: from piraque.homeshopping.com.br by thor.cmp.ilstu.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA50165; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:11:53 -0600 Received: from bhzrede.homeshopping.com.br (bhzrede.homeshopping.com.br [200.251.250.28]) by piraque.homeshopping.com.br (8.7.5/8.7.3/Piraque/HomeShopping) with SMTP id OAA28439; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 14:11:49 -0300 (BRA) Message-Id: <199703241711.OAA28439@piraque.homeshopping.com.br> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 14:10:43 -0300 From: bhzrede Organization: br homeshopping X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: pos302-l@thor.cmp.ilstu.edu Cc: chauke@br.homeshopping.com.br Subject: Re: Review of Racism and Justice (Ezorsky) References: <199703040936.DAA80764@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Gary Klass gmklass@ilstu.edu Department of Political Science Illinois State University Normal Illinois 61790-4699 From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 09:51:55 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id JAA07632 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id JAA07562 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:46:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Mon, 24 Mar 1997 12:52:40 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199703240900.BAA02286@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 12:44:15 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re:Cloud9.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 08:15 -0800 3/24/97, Mark E. Taylor said: >I recently had an e-mail forger from Cloud9. He set up an UCE using my list >address as the reply to. He also included my name as well. However the person >who did it was easily traced (not the best of forgeries) and Cloud9 removed him >right away. Sounds like Kevin "Krazy Kevin" Lipschitz. (Lipsitz? Something like that.) If the spam referenced "Tempting Tearouts," it's K^2. He was a pretty notorious/active spammer about a year ago; he tends to target mailing lists. (Send fewer messages, get broader distribution.) He also likes to use *real* Reply-To and X-Sender addresses (X-Sender is used as a red herring; Reply-To is obviously for those who simply hit REPLY). He dropped off the 'Net around last May or so. Rumor has it that someone in his area (Staten Island, NY) recognized the name, and had a little talk with his rabbi -- who, in turn, had a little talk with his mother. The power of the umbilical cord. Kevin reared his head again for a few short spams about two months ago or so (Mom was on vacation, perhaps?), and now he seems to be back in his usual form. His ISP M.O. changes -- for a while, he was bouncing from ISP to ISP, simply switching whenever he got thrown off. Toward the end of his streak a year ago, he was using "throw-away" AOL accounts; another rumor had it that AOL had threatened pressing charges against him. Either way, he finally quit the AOL routine. Currently, he's been booted from Cloud9, but he's already set up shop at a new site. I know -- I've received his latest spam; he has probably been booted from there already, but he will be someplace else by this evening. All of this should be of interest over here, since Kev's primary targets are almost always mailing lists. I *think* he got his original list from PAML, though who knows where he's been updating it. Anyway, it sounds like the rabbi needs another talk ... P.S. -- On a final note, pretty reliable second-hand information on SPAM-L indicated that the NY State Attorney General's Ori^H^Hffice was suing Kevin. >From a message dated 19 March: >Eric Wenger, NY State Assistant Attorney General, wrote: > >>Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:58:30 -0800 >>Subject: Re: Kevin Lipsitz >> >>It is true that my office is suing Lipsitz. >>The initial hearing date is Friday March 21, 1997. Kevin spammed again this weekend. That's a bad sign. - Vince Sabio orionsoft@telephonet.com -- If you run a mailing list and are tired of manually processing mail bounces, then you probably need SmartBounce. For more information, send a blank email to . -- Because The Only GOOD Spammer is a DEAD Spammer From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 10:22:02 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA10078 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:08:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id KAA10061 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:08:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id KAA01431; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:07:33 -0800 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA01593; Mon, 24 Mar 97 10:08:51 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970324180956.0075db8c@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:09:56 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Alan Deikman Subject: Gateways to newsgroups and other reflectors Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I noticed a couple of names showing up on my parent/teens mailing list (apt@znyx.com) that are obviously aliases. For example, apt@xxx.com. Is there any way to tell, short of e-mailing to that address, what it is going to? It could be an archive, or a newsgroup feed, or just someone with their own domain sorting e-mail that way. Anybody have a good strategy for this? Regards, -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 10:29:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA09438 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:04:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id KAA09354 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:03:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from kuno (ip7133.transbay.net [207.105.7.133]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA07305; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:02:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703241802.KAA07305@mail-gw.pacbell.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "John Buckman" Organization: Walter Shelby Group Ltd. To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:02:45 +7 Subject: A list-abuse mailing list? CC: chuq@apple.com, A.Verbraeck@duticai.TWI.TUDelft.NL In-reply-to: <199703240733.IAA10956@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > My lists are always under heavy attack from dozens of places (both by spam > and by bogus subscriptions, or by mailbombing existing, unknowing users). It seems to me that it would make sense for list managers to band together and develop techniques for fighting mailing list attacks. This type of problem is becoming more common, and list owners could well benefit from an orchestrated effort at trying to stamp this stuff out. For instance, it should be possible to come up with a reasonable standard for identifying list-enabled mail bombs (where someone gets subscribed to hundreds of lists), defining an algorithm that could be added to existing mailing list software, sharing the information so that list admins can protect their site, and creating a method for a "victims" to undo the damage. To this end, I propose creating a mailing list for discussing "mailing list abuse" and coming up with ways to prevent it. If there is interest in this topic from other list admins, I'd be glad to host the list. This would be a vendor-neutral forum, where anyone using any list server software would be welcome. The immediate goal of such a list would be to alert other list admins of list abuse in progress, and help each other stop it. The eventual goal would be to write up an RFC on this topic, and to create a small library of procedures and source code which help list admins fight back. My apologies if such a list already exists -- I am not aware of one. John John Buckman Shelby Group Ltd., http://www.shelby.com/ Developers of Lyris Email List Server From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 11:15:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA14675 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:45:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id KAA14639 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:45:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA18205; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:41:19 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970323192503.006baa94@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 19:26:21 -0800 To: "John Buckman" From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: A list-abuse mailing list? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:02 AM 3/24/97 +7, John Buckman wrote: >To this end, I propose creating a mailing list for discussing >"mailing list abuse" and coming up with ways to prevent it. If >there is interest in this topic from other list admins, I'd be glad >to host the list. This would be a vendor-neutral forum, where anyone >using any list server software would be welcome. It would probably be spammed silly. :) Seriously, though, it's a good idea -- I'd be up for it. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Latest site: http://www.ci.fullerton.ca.us/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 11:21:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA15977 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id LAA15895 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:06:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Mon, 24 Mar 1997 14:12:42 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199703241802.KAA07305@mail-gw.pacbell.net> References: <199703240733.IAA10956@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 14:10:19 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: A list-abuse mailing list? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 10:02 +0007 3/24/97, John Buckman said: >It seems to me that it would make sense for list managers to band >together and develop techniques for fighting mailing list attacks. ::snip:: >To this end, I propose creating a mailing list for discussing >"mailing list abuse" and coming up with ways to prevent it. If >there is interest in this topic from other list admins, I'd be glad >to host the list. This would be a vendor-neutral forum, where anyone >using any list server software would be welcome. ::snip:: I think this is a *great* idea. I do not know of any other forum that deals specifically with attempted list abuse/mass subscribes/etc. With abuse on the rise, it sure seems like focusing our efforts would be a good place to start ... - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Because The Only GOOD Spammer is a DEAD Spammer From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 13:26:05 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA28812 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 12:53:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id MAA28762 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 12:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA20576; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 14:50:38 -0600 (CST) To: Alan Deikman Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Gateways to newsgroups and other reflectors References: <2.2.32.19970324180956.0075db8c@znyx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 24 Mar 1997 14:50:38 -0600 In-Reply-To: Alan Deikman's message of Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:09:56 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 32 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.26/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "AD" == Alan Deikman writes: AD> Is there any way to tell, short of e-mailing to that address, what it AD> is going to? Lookup the primary MX for that domain: XYX:sina:~/mj/majordomo-1.94.1> host znyx.com znyx.com has address 198.211.96.4 znyx.com mail is handled (pri=0) by mail.znyx.com Telnet to the SMTP port of the machine and ask it what the address points to: XYX:sina:~/work/rust> telnet mail.znyx.com smtp Trying 198.211.96.4 ... Connected to dart.znyx.com. Escape character is '^]'. 220 znyx.com Sendmail 5.65/1.35 ready at Mon, 24 Mar 97 12:48:03 -0800 HELO sina.hpc.uh.edu 250 znyx.com Hello sina.hpc.uh.edu, pleased to meet you EXPN apt *censored* That's the best that you can get, other than mailing the postmaster at the site and asking them. If they won't tell you, remove the address and ban the domain (if you're paranoid). Many sites block this information because it can expose data which some people want to hide. - J< From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 13:30:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id NAA02000 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 13:12:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (duticai.twi.tudelft.nl [130.161.159.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id NAA01982; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 13:12:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from winfave@localhost) by duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA02554; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:11:22 +0100 (MET) From: Alexander Verbraeck Message-Id: <199703242111.WAA02554@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> Subject: Re: Gateways to newsgroups and other reflectors To: owner-list-managers-outgoing@greatcircle.com (Alan Deikman) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:11:21 +0100 (MET) Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970324180956.0075db8c@znyx.com> from "Alan Deikman" at Mar 24, 97 10:09:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I noticed a couple of names showing up on my parent/teens mailing > list (apt@znyx.com) that are obviously aliases. For example, > apt@xxx.com. Is there any way to tell, short of e-mailing to > that address, what it is going to? It could be an archive, > or a newsgroup feed, or just someone with their own domain sorting > e-mail that way. > > Anybody have a good strategy for this? Dear Alan, At my list, I have a large number of local lists subscribing to the list. It's always hard to tell. After a while, I stopped bothering; most of the subscribed lists or aliases expanded to a number of local people who were interested in the list, and found out it's more efficient to receive the postings once per site instead of dozens. I even had users who asked permission to subscribe an entire class during one semester to my list by using an alias; better than all students subscribing separately and half of them forgetting to unsub after the term is over... So, although you never know the PERSONS subscribed (it's hard to tell anyhow with thousands of subscribers), I even tend to like it. By the way, every person can automatically archive all messages, send copies to hundreds of other e-mail addresses, or feed the messages to a newsgroup. No way whatsoever to find out in advance. My strategy: allow it; maybe put a warning in the subscription message; watch complaints carefully (I had some mailbombs by spammers subscribing my list to other lists, takes a while to find out the first time...) and act on complaints fast before people start complaining to the list. Kind regards, Alexander Verbraeck List Manager BPR-L, DYNMOD-L > -------------------------------- > Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation > alan@znyx.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 15:22:18 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA19930 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 15:12:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id PAA19895 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 15:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from kuno (ip7133.transbay.net [207.105.7.133]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA11996 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 15:11:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703242311.PAA11996@mail-gw.pacbell.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "John Buckman" Organization: Walter Shelby Group Ltd. To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 15:12:13 +7 Subject: Announce: list-abuse mailing list In-reply-to: References: <199703241802.KAA07305@mail-gw.pacbell.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Based on the strongly positive feedback I received about the idea of a mailing list dedicated to preventing mailing list abuse, I've gone ahead and created a "list-abuse" mailing list. General instructions about joining "List-Abuse" are available at: http://clio.lyris.net/list-abuse/ Alternatively, you can send email to: join-list-abuse@clio.lyris.net About LIST-ABUSE: LIST-ABUSE is an Internet discussion group working to stop abuses of Internet mailing lists. In particular, we aim to stop mail bombs, spoofed-subscribers, denial of service attacks, and other forms of "Mailing List Terrorism". Mailing list administrators, authors of mailing list software, and others interested in mailing list abuse are welcome to join. John John Buckman Shelby Group Ltd., http://www.shelby.com/ Developers of Lyris Email List Server From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 16:21:54 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA26840 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 15:56:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.21.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id PAA26702 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 15:55:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2 (unverified [205.160.21.66]) by ec3.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 18:52:50 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 18:52:48 -0500 Subject: Re: A list-abuse mailing list? Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com In-reply-to: References: <199703241802.KAA07305@mail-gw.pacbell.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 24 Mar 97 at 14:10, Vince Sabio wrote: > I think this is a *great* idea. I do not know of any other forum > that deals specifically with attempted list abuse/mass > subscribes/etc. With abuse on the rise, it sure seems like focusing > our efforts would be a good place to start ... I agree. If a list is launched, place make it a closed list open only to list managers/owners. Of course legitimate list owners can be spammers too, but it may be wise to limit discussions of solutions to list owners rather publishing them so that they can immediately circumvented, if possible. :-) Gess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Gess Shankar pax vobiscum gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com Earth Channel Communications, LLC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 17:36:17 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA05857 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:26:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id RAA05804 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from kuno (ip7133.transbay.net [207.105.7.133]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA12877 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:24:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703250124.RAA12877@mail-gw.pacbell.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "John Buckman" Organization: Walter Shelby Group Ltd. To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:25:31 +7 Subject: Re: A list-abuse mailing list? In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I agree. If a list is launched, place make it a closed list open only > to list managers/owners. Of course legitimate list owners can be > spammers too, but it may be wise to limit discussions of solutions to > list owners rather publishing them so that they can immediately > circumvented, if possible. :-) I agree, we should take measures to make it more difficult for abusers to find out what list admins are doing to stop them. The list I created (at http://clio.lyris.net/list-abuse) is private -- I must approve each applicant. The web archives are available only to current valid members. Also, the first 2 posts from new members need to be moderator approved. As far as abusers circumventing whatever we come up with: yes, of course, there will always be people who will figure out ways around anything we devise. The virus fighting community has the same problem -- each time a new virus fighting program thwarts the latest viruses, some clever virus writer finds a way around it. That being the case, it is still very useful to have these virus fighting programs around, especially since they catch the majority of the current viruses. The same rule applies to techniques for fighting mailing list abuse. As soon as we make some technique available to other list managers, some clever list abuser will find a way around our new techniques. We'll need to stay vigilant and further refine our tools each time this happens. But just like Virus detection programs, we'll still have developed something that's useful for thwarting the common list abuse techniques, and hopefully we'll block the most common forms of abuse. John John Buckman Shelby Group Ltd., http://www.shelby.com/ Developers of Lyris Email List Server From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 20:21:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA23011 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 20:10:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.21.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id UAA22951 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 20:09:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2 (unverified [205.160.21.66]) by ec3.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:06:07 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:06:06 -0500 Subject: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Despite filtering, the tempting tear-outs spam struck one of my lists today. Of course ts@okcom.net ceased to exist after sending out the spam. VRFY did say such a mailbox existed, but within minutes became "user not known". Email to the postmaster@okcom.net produced no reponse. Headers of the culprit email is given below. Gess -- Received: from ns1.okcom.net (unverified [208.132.198.10]) by ec2.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:26:55 -0500 Received: from [208.132.198.56] (pm1-s23.okcom.net [208.132.198.56]) by ns1.okcom.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA09461; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:05:56 -05 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-to: Please.reply.via.fax.or.via.smail@fax.number.or.smail.address.shown.b elow.Thank.Y Approved: by ts@oknet.com Approved-by: ts@oknet.com X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 01:43:21 -1812 To: ts@okcom.net From: ts@okcom.net Subject: a very interesting free offer The company making the offer is a magazine subscription agency based in the USA. They have over 1,500 popular USA titles available to be shipped to [..] -- Tempting Tear-Outs. For more info on advertising rates, please write us on your company letterhead, w/business card, via smail to: Tempting Tear-Outs, 3835 Richmond Ave. Suite #200, Staten Island NY 10312-3828, USA. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 21:06:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA25248 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.eskimo.com (mx1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.48]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id VAA25241 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:03:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA03576; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:02:55 -0800 From: Berg Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.6) id VAA22144; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:02:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:02:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703250502.VAA22144@eskimo.com> To: gess@earthchannel.com Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Why not simply see if someone in NY might simply show up at the address given in the Tear-Outs spam? (I figure it would be worth a try). From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 21:10:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA25171 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:03:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id VAA25164 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:02:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2A VAX) id 4; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:01:53 PST Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:01:50 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: gess@earthchannel.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009B1C1F.0EBC8E16.4@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: RE: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"gess@earthchannel.com" 24-MAR-1997 20:22:00.06 > Subj: Krazy Kevin back at it again? > Despite filtering, the tempting tear-outs spam struck one of my lists > today. Of course ts@okcom.net ceased to exist after sending out the > spam. VRFY did say such a mailbox existed, but within minutes became > "user not known". Email to the postmaster@okcom.net produced no > reponse. > > Headers of the culprit email is given below. > > Gess I've heard from them. They apoligize and are looking for suggestions. Does anyone have that "fact file" on Krazy Kevin lying around? -HWM From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 21:36:03 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA26791 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:30:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov (sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id VAA26783 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:30:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2A VAX) id 39; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:29:08 PST Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:29:05 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: berg@eskimo.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009B1C22.DD5E2B96.39@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"berg@eskimo.com" "Berg" 24-MAR-1997 21:06:47.63 > Subj: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? > Why not simply see if someone in NY might simply show up at the address > given in the Tear-Outs spam? > > (I figure it would be worth a try). > > Don't forget to carry your concealed weapon's permit... -HWM From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 21:51:53 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA27420 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:43:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id VAA27413 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:43:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA12454; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:44:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199703250544.XAA12454@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? To: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:44:33 -0600 (CST) Cc: berg@eskimo.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov In-Reply-To: <009B1C22.DD5E2B96.39@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> from "Henry W. Miller" at Mar 24, 97 09:29:05 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Henry W. Miller said... | | Don't forget to carry your concealed weapon's permit... In NY??? HAHAHAHAHahahahahahahaaaaaa....... Have to stick with a abseball bat... Unless... do you suppose we could use a Goetz defense? From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 22:05:15 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA27586 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:47:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id VAA27542 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:47:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from flying_fish1 (flying_fish2.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.26]) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA26644 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:48:46 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970324235000.00b2d2d0@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:50:00 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? In-Reply-To: <009B1C22.DD5E2B96.39@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:29 PM 24/03/97 PST, assorted folks said things like: >> Why not simply see if someone in NY might simply show up at the address >> given in the Tear-Outs spam? >> >> (I figure it would be worth a try). > Don't forget to carry your concealed weapon's permit... If a real address is given, either the spamster is uncommonly stupid (well, ok, it's a spamster, so that's already a given...) or, more likely, this is an attempt to frame someone. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 22:06:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA28950 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:03:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id WAA28934 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:02:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from flying_fish1 (flying_fish2.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.26]) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA27231 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:04:26 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970325000540.00b2d2d0@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:05:40 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Bogus sub attempts ended? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've noticed the bogus sub attempts seem to have stopped at my site. Have they stopped elsewhere? I'm wondering, because the attempts ceased at about the same time I modified Majordomo to include the original request headers, and an explanation, in the "Majordomo results" messages. My reasoning behind this mod is that it makes it easier for the recipient of bogus subs and other requests to track the original source of the list commands. This should make my site a little less tempting to hackers, because they are now not entirely anonymous from the victim's point of view. If you want to see what I've done, send any of the usual Majordomo commands to majordomo@armchair.mb.ca. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 22:21:08 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA29766 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:14:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov (sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id WAA29757 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:14:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2A VAX) id 8; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:13:37 PST Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:13:34 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: dave@armchair.mb.ca CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009B1C29.13E96E36.8@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"dave@armchair.mb.ca" "Dave Voorhis" 24-MAR-1997 22:08:22.41 > Subj: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? > At 09:29 PM 24/03/97 PST, assorted folks said things like: > > >> Why not simply see if someone in NY might simply show up at the address > >> given in the Tear-Outs spam? > >> > >> (I figure it would be worth a try). > > > Don't forget to carry your concealed weapon's permit... > > If a real address is given, either the spamster is uncommonly stupid (well, > ok, it's a spamster, so that's already a given...) or, more likely, this is > an attempt to frame someone. > > Dave Voorhis > mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca > http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave > Dave, I think that it is the former - Krazy Kevin has demonstrated his uncommon stupidity on many occaisions. He has SPAMMed the same mailing list three times in a day using different fake email addresses, but all using his address and FAX number. -HWM From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 24 23:21:33 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA04970 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:13:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.eskimo.com (mx1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.48]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id XAA04960 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:12:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA19097; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:11:35 -0800 From: Berg Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.6) id XAA01311; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:11:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:11:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703250711.XAA01311@eskimo.com> To: meo@schoneal.com Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I personally prefer a good wood or metal grip jumprope to a baseball bat...it's a less obvious weapon, and fits in a pocket...but you can pack nearly the same whallop as with a bat... From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 25 00:06:04 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA09549 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:52:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from atheria.europa.com (atheria.europa.com [199.2.194.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id XAA09492 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:52:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from kali(really [204.202.48.49]) by atheria.europa.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:51:30 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #4 built 1997-Jan-19) Message-ID: <33378460.2AAF@europa.com> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:53:04 -0800 From: kali X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Despite filtering, the tempting tear-outs spam struck one of my lists > today. Of course ts@okcom.net ceased to exist after sending out the > spam. VRFY did say such a mailbox existed, but within minutes became > "user not known". Email to the postmaster@okcom.net produced no > reponse. ME TOO! I get stuff from them all the time because they are constantly changing things, this is what the guy at okcom.net said: ** Hi, We are very sorry !!! Someone opened an account last night (March 23) and in the middle of the night start sending spam emails. By the time we found out, a lot of emails were already sent out. We do not allow any spam email and his account ts@okcom.net is deleted already. From several other people who called, it seems they moved from provider to provider so be careful. The phone number they gave us now become a fax number which is 718-227-9125. Again we are very sorry and welcome any suggestions. OKcomNet admin@okcom.net ** It would take a LONG time for me to mention all of the different servers I've gotten mail from, luckily my list rejects all non-member submissions, otherwise my listees would be suffering and not just me. Hmmm...I wonder if giving them a taste of their own medicine would make them quit?? if the fax number is real....? -kali kali@europa.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 25 00:21:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA11927 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:10:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from solutions.apple.com (solutions.apple.com [17.255.34.19]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id AAA11901 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:10:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by solutions.apple.com (8.6.10/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id AAA06496; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:10:38 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970325000540.00b2d2d0@armchair.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:45:48 -0800 To: Dave Voorhis , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Bogus sub attempts ended? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:05 PM -0800 3/24/97, Dave Voorhis wrote: >I've noticed the bogus sub attempts seem to have stopped at my site. Have >they stopped elsewhere? Yes. Stopped here, too. Nothing that my filters have caught since early in the AM. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 25 07:37:01 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA10428 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 07:34:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [198.7.0.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id HAA10393 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 07:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [38.217.47.2] ([38.217.47.2]) by mail1.panix.com (8.8.5/8.7.1/PanixM1.0) with ESMTP id KAA27784 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:33:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199703250900.BAA17663@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:11:27 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Kent S. Larsen II" Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > It would take a LONG time for me to mention all of the different servers > I've gotten mail from, luckily my list rejects all non-member > submissions, otherwise my listees would be suffering and not just me. > > Hmmm...I wonder if giving them a taste of their own medicine would make > them quit?? if the fax number is real....? > > - -kali > kali@europa.com > I think they pretty much have to be real - he is actually trying to sell magazine subscriptions after all. I believe the profit motive is at work here, and therefore the fax # and address are real addresses where he can get the faxes and mail in response to his spams. [BTW, someone has to be responding to this stuff! I think he would stop if he weren't getting some responses.] I did try to fax a response to him (I wasn't buying magazines), but the fax # uses caller ID - so you can't anonymously spam him in return. It would be poetic justice if he were to receive bogus magazine subscriptions, however. (If this hasn't been done already - he is probably on the kill list for every major magazine! While Staten Island is close, I'm not sure I trust myself to act legally if I went to see this address. Does anyone know if the NY State Attorney mentioned on this thread wants additional evidence? Kent Kent S. "Kip" Larsen II; KLarsen@panix.com or KLarsen@NorthSouth.com (work). From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 25 08:51:48 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA14396 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 08:37:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.lynchburg.net (ns.lynchburg.net [208.197.56.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id IAA14371 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 08:37:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [208.197.56.59] by ns.lynchburg.net (SMTPD32-3.03) id AF4693022A; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:37:26 -0500 Message-ID: <3337FEFD.189F@Lynchburg.Net> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:36:13 -0500 From: Pat Barrett Reply-To: Pat@Lynchburg.Net Organization: Way Of Grace Fellowship X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk If you go to the NYS AG's web site you will soon learn that he knows nothing about Internet activity. Just check out the email addresses - they are him@his website url. Even the one on his order form for useful materials bounces. This is my first day on this list, and I do not know how far any of you have pursued Mr.Kevin Jay Lipsitz. After my lists were attacked last week I started looking into him and came to realize that he has an ongoing criminal enterprise operating on the Internet. He has been sending this same basic spam out for well over a year. Part of his scam is that you do not get the magazines that you pay for. I have been reading the abuse newsgroup and realized that he will never be stopped unless we change our ways. The normal pattern he follows is to spam a large number of lists and newsgroups with the message all at one time. This gets folks mad and they complain to his ISP, who in turn cancels his account. Then the folks gather on the NG and pat each other on the back for tracing his headers and getting his account canceled. Well, he never tried to hide his account, and had no intention of ever using it again. The one he used last week, Cloud9, says he never even paid them. He signed up for a one week free trial. I have not bothered checking with this week's ISP to see what happened with them. He owns his own domain name, and maintains an address their that is never used to spam anyone. He uses it to send the information back to the people who fax him a request. Of course, if we were to mail bomb that address he would have our ISP cut off our accounts. In the case of Mr.Lipsitz, we have two choices. One, we can continue operating as we have, taking our hits and letting him get away with it. Two, we can fight back by getting together to file a class action lawsuit against him, and bring combined criminal charges as well. What crime? Well, the folks on the abuse NG have been arguing about the fax machine law not applying, but that has nothing to do with our cases. If I were to break into your computer and steal your list of clients to use for my business, that would be a crime, and no one would have any doubt about that.Even those of us who have lists that he only tried to use are involved here. In my case, I have one he got into and one that stopped him. But, attempting to commit a crime is also a crime, even if he was stopped in the process. Well, that is what he has done. Only, instead of taking the list in one step and mailing out his materials in another, he has done it all in one step, and when he finished discarded the stolen list. Since he did this across state lines, it is a matter of Interstate Commerce that he is interfering with, making it a Federal Case. Since he is doing this as an ongoing criminal enterprise over an extended period of time, it is a RICO offense as well, involving him and all of his helpers. I have just sent him a bill for the use of my lists, certified mail to his home, with a notice that if it is not paid within one week, I will be starting legal action in Federal Court. Is any of his other victims interested? Kent S. Larsen II wrote: > SNIP> > > - -kali > > kali@europa.com > > > SNIP > [BTW, someone has to be responding to this stuff! I think he would stop if > he weren't getting some responses.] > > I did try to fax a response to him (I wasn't buying magazines), but the fax > # uses caller ID - so you can't anonymously spam him in return. > > It would be poetic justice if he were to receive bogus magazine > subscriptions, however. (If this hasn't been done already - he is probably > on the kill list for every major magazine! > > While Staten Island is close, I'm not sure I trust myself to act legally if > I went to see this address. > > Does anyone know if the NY State Attorney mentioned on this thread wants > additional evidence? > > Kent > > Kent S. "Kip" Larsen II; KLarsen@panix.com or KLarsen@NorthSouth.com (work). -- Pat Barrett This is the day that the LORD has made, rejoice and be glad in it! http://www.UserHome.com/graceway/wogf.htm http://www.UserHome.com/soap/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 25 09:51:27 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id JAA21801 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:40:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id JAA21788 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:40:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:47:12 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199703250502.VAA22144@eskimo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:47:05 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 21:02 -0800 3/24/97, Berg said: > Why not simply see if someone in NY might simply show up at the address >given in the Tear-Outs spam? > > (I figure it would be worth a try). Some of us were seriously looking into that about a year ago. I didn't fill you guys in on THIS part of the RabbiConnection(tm) rumor, but supposedly the REAL reason the rabbi decided to have a chat with mom was for the exact reason that Berg suggests above -- we had tracked Kev back to his home address, and were starting to discuss, rather seriously, about having someone pay him a "visit." And not to chat about the latest IRC software, either. ;-) Rabbis and moms apparently take the whole emergency-room thing very seriously. On a more useful note, there was (last year) a Web site *devoted* to finding and stopping Kevin: . It's still up, though it hasn't been modified since last November (which is interesting -- when I checked it a month ago, it hand't been modified since last May; go figure). And there's always the Internet Blacklist, which has a little more info on some of Kevin's OTHER scams: . I tend to think that the only way to stop this idiot is abuse -- either physical abuse or legal abuse. Take your pick. - Vince S. wavelet@colossus.arl.mil -- For info on HumourNet--the Internet's moderated mailing list for humor-- send the command INFO HUMORNET (only one U) to listproc@csf.colorado.edu -- Because The Only GOOD Spammer is a DEAD Spammer From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 25 10:24:36 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA26119 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:14:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from iron.butterfly.net (iron.butterfly.net [206.138.112.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id KAA26109 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:13:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from obvious (obvious.northcoast.com [206.184.67.105]) by iron.butterfly.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id NAA17647 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:09:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970325101152.009acaa0@butterfly.net> X-Sender: obvious@butterfly.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:11:52 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: David Carter Subject: persistent idiot from AOL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I am running an older version of majordomo, 1.72, and I'm just now running into problems with a user who's clearly insane, coming from AOL. I edited resend to look for his aliases and drop the job if it recognizes him, but this is a messy temporary fix. What tools are there for dealing with really infantile and verbose list members? I dont want to moderate the list. -dc David Carter Programmer HuskyLabs www.lab.com 4584 Campton Rd. Eureka CA 95503 707.441.8443 From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 25 10:46:30 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA27684 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:30:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from atheria.europa.com (atheria.europa.com [199.2.194.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id KAA27657 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from thetics.europa.com(really [199.2.194.14]) by atheria.europa.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:29:15 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #4 built 1997-Jan-19) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:29:14 -0800 (PST) From: kali Reply-To: kali To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I think they pretty much have to be real - he is actually trying to sell > magazine subscriptions after all. I believe the profit motive is at work > here, and therefore the fax # and address are real addresses where he can > get the faxes and mail in response to his spams. > > [BTW, someone has to be responding to this stuff! I think he would stop if > he weren't getting some responses.] > > I did try to fax a response to him (I wasn't buying magazines), but the fax > # uses caller ID - so you can't anonymously spam him in return. not unless EACH of us send him a fax, and we get other people that are sick of him to send him faxes too. All of them would come from different numbers and different parts of the country. PLUS, those of you that have Sprint's business account could take advantage of "free long distance friday" and not even have to pay at all!! Same with an email bomb, if we got several different people to participate, no one could get into trouble because technically we would only be sending one or two emails. Power in numbers is astounding ;) > It would be poetic justice if he were to receive bogus magazine > subscriptions, however. (If this hasn't been done already - he is probably > on the kill list for every major magazine! doesn't he claim affiliation with USA Today?? I wonder what they think about this, there is a potential law suit right there! -kali kali@europa.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 25 11:07:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA01247 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:02:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from shore.shore.net (shore.shore.net [192.233.85.136]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id LAA01195 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:02:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from jane.smoe.org (jeffw@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by shore.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id OAA29452; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:01:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA25492; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:01:52 -0500 Message-ID: <19970325140151.NM41258@smoe.org> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:01:51 -0500 From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) To: obvy@lab.com (David Carter) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: persistent idiot from AOL References: <3.0.1.32.19970325101152.009acaa0@butterfly.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.59.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970325101152.009acaa0@butterfly.net>; from "David Carter" on Mar 25, 1997 10:11:52 -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David Carter writes: > Hi, > > I am running an older version of majordomo, 1.72, > and I'm just now running into problems with a user > who's clearly insane, coming from AOL. I edited > resend to look for his aliases and drop the job > if it recognizes him, but this is a messy temporary > fix. What tools are there for dealing with really > infantile and verbose list members? I dont want > to moderate the list. This question is better suited to majordomo-users@greatcircle.com. Perhaps you should subscribe to that list? In any event, majordomo 1.94.1 has support for taboo_header and taboo_body regular expressions, which will send the post to you for approval if it matches any of the regexps: # taboo_headers [regexp_array] (undef) # If any of the headers matches one of these regexps, then the # message will be bounced for review. taboo_headers << END /wherefore\@hotmail\.com/i /buritohead\@aol\.com/i It works very well. Jeff From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 25 12:11:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA06974 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:53:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id LAA06938 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:52:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:59:30 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <009B1C29.13E96E36.8@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:58:56 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 22:13 -0800 3/24/97, Henry W. Miller said: >> From: MX%"dave@armchair.mb.ca" "Dave Voorhis" 24-MAR-1997 22:08:22.41 >> >> If a real address is given, either the spamster is uncommonly stupid (well, >> ok, it's a spamster, so that's already a given...) or, more likely, this is >> an attempt to frame someone. > > I think that it is the former - Krazy Kevin has demonstrated his >uncommon stupidity on many occaisions. He has SPAMMed the same mailing >list three times in a day using different fake email addresses, but all >using his address and FAX number. It's been pretty well confirmed that the information is legit. It has thus been circumstantially confirmed that Krazy Kevin is, indeed, uncommonly stupid. (After all, he appeared at a hearing on Friday for his spamming activities, and *spammed again* over the weekend. I'd call that uncommonly stupid.) - Vince Sabio orionsoft@telephonet.com -- If you run a mailing list and are tired of manually processing mail bounces, then you probably need SmartBounce. For more information, send a blank email to . -- Because The Only GOOD Spammer is a DEAD Spammer From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 25 13:06:43 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA16285 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from grinch.whoville.leftbank.com (grinch.leftbank.com [139.167.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id MAA16242 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:53:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from zax.whoville.leftbank.com by grinch.whoville.leftbank.com via smtpd (for honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) with SMTP; 25 Mar 1997 20:53:00 UT Received: (from nmehl@localhost) by zax.leftbank.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/LeftBank-1.1/http://www.leftbank.com/) id PAA24884; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:53:19 -0500 (EST) From: "Nathan J. Mehl" Message-Id: <199703252053.PAA24884@zax.leftbank.com> Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? To: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:53:19 -0500 (EST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Vince Sabio" at Mar 25, 97 02:58:56 pm X-Abby-Says: Nathan, you keep getting to be the first person who does things to me X-My-Minions: Took over Lunacon...and Minbar. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of Vince Sabio: > It's been pretty well confirmed that the information is legit. It has thus > been circumstantially confirmed that Krazy Kevin is, indeed, uncommonly > stupid. (After all, he appeared at a hearing on Friday for his spamming > activities, and *spammed again* over the weekend. I'd call that uncommonly > stupid.) Stupid? Pfeh. He's been _getting_away_with_it_ for over two years now. And that's included the threatening phone calls (assault and felonious harassment) and email bombs to his critics, nevermind the list spamming (vaguely illegal) and subscription-scamming (grand fraud) itself. Based solely on the evidence, he's not even slightly stupid, and has every reason to be confident and even cocky. :-b Hell, I became a list-manager because of Lipsitz -- he was spamming biversity@gnu.ai.mit.edu every other week, and the MIT admins were unwilling/unable to do anything about it, so I learned majordomo for the sole purpose of putting the list somewhere where I could keep him out. (Sadly, he hasn't attempted anything since the list moved to my system. The _moment_ he leaves me with a piece of evidence in my hands, I _will_ have the shitstain up on charges, so help me Bob...) -n, excuse me, it's a sore subject -- Don't blame me -- I voted for the Unabomber! Nathan J. Mehl -- The Left Bank Operation (work) nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com (play) memory@blank.org -- http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nmehl/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 25 13:59:47 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id NAA21048 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:41:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id NAA20957 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:48:01 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199703252053.PAA24884@zax.leftbank.com> References: from "Vince Sabio" at Mar 25, 97 02:58:56 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:47:52 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 15:53 -0500 3/25/97, Nathan J. Mehl said: >In the immortal words of Vince Sabio: > >> It's been pretty well confirmed that the information is legit. It has thus >> been circumstantially confirmed that Krazy Kevin is, indeed, uncommonly >> stupid. (After all, he appeared at a hearing on Friday for his spamming >> activities, and *spammed again* over the weekend. I'd call that uncommonly >> stupid.) > >Stupid? > >Pfeh. > >He's been _getting_away_with_it_ for over two years now. Unfortunately, as we've all learned all too well, it doesn't take brains to get away with spamming. And Kevin ain't the brainiest of the lot. And that's saying something -- it certainly is not a particularly brainy lot to begin with. Yes, he's been getting away with it, but I don't hold that up as evidence of intellect, that's for sure. - Vince Sabio orionsoft@telephonet.com -- If you run a mailing list and are tired of manually processing mail bounces, then you probably need SmartBounce. For more information, send a blank email to . -- Because The Only GOOD Spammer is a DEAD Spammer From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 25 14:36:43 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA24530 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:12:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov (sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id OAA24486 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:12:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2A VAX) id 6; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:11:35 PST Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:11:32 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: nmehl@leftbank.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009B1CAE.E7D2B146.6@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"nmehl@leftbank.com" "Nathan J. Mehl" 25-MAR-1997 13:09:05.79 > Subj: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Nathan, > In the immortal words of Vince Sabio: > > > It's been pretty well confirmed that the information is legit. It has thus > > been circumstantially confirmed that Krazy Kevin is, indeed, uncommonly > > stupid. (After all, he appeared at a hearing on Friday for his spamming > > activities, and *spammed again* over the weekend. I'd call that uncommonly > > stupid.) > > Stupid? > > Pfeh. > > He's been _getting_away_with_it_ for over two years now. > > And that's included the threatening phone calls (assault and > felonious harassment) and email bombs to his critics, nevermind the > list spamming (vaguely illegal) and subscription-scamming (grand > fraud) itself. > FYI, one of the scientists here fell for Kevin's scams. BUT, it was not email, but regular snail mail. According to this scientist, the magazines did come form several months, then stopped. > Based solely on the evidence, he's not even slightly stupid, and > has every reason to be confident and even cocky. :-b > > Hell, I became a list-manager because of Lipsitz -- he was spamming > biversity@gnu.ai.mit.edu every other week, and the MIT admins were > unwilling/unable to do anything about it, so I learned majordomo > for the sole purpose of putting the list somewhere where I could > keep him out. > > (Sadly, he hasn't attempted anything since the list moved to my system. > The _moment_ he leaves me with a piece of evidence in my hands, I _will_ > have the shitstain up on charges, so help me Bob...) > > -n, excuse me, it's a sore subject > I can sympathize with your situation. Kevein and his ilk have forced me to take steps that I did not like, closing my lists to all but subscribers. (It also keeps out the random barrage of spurious "SUBSCRIBE" requests sent to the list, but that is a different story.) I don't think that it is that Kevin is smarter than we are, it's just that we are unorganized. Let's be realistic: how many of us specifically have something to the effect of: "Manage electronic mailing lists that do not pertain to the organizations charter" in our job desciptions? (Actually, those at ISP's probably do...) But most of us probably manage the lists in our "spare" (HA!) time and are systems and/ or network managers in our day jobs. We are probably just too busy to organize and attack this thing as a force: we're too busy putting out fires in our daily routine to take care of this. Do we need to form an ad-hoc committee for this? Is there something of this nature in IETF? Rather than just sit around and bitterly complain, I think that we need to get organized, set goals, assign tasks and work on a positive solution. > -- > Don't blame me -- I voted for the Unabomber! > Nathan J. Mehl -- The Left Bank Operation > (work) nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com > (play) memory@blank.org -- http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nmehl/ -HWM From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 25 15:06:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA00116 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:51:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from solutions.apple.com (solutions.apple.com [17.255.34.19]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id OAA00107 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:51:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by solutions.apple.com (8.6.10/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id OAA03864; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:52:05 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199703252053.PAA24884@zax.leftbank.com> from "Vince Sabio" at Mar 25, 97 02:58:56 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:35:51 -0800 To: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:47 PM -0800 3/25/97, Vince Sabio wrote: >Yes, he's been getting away with it, but I don't hold that up as evidence >of intellect, that's for sure. Agreed. Smart is not in my list of definitions for a person who has been caught be the police, and continues to operate. Is a person who's been caught drinking and driving smart if he stops at a bar on the way home from the court? -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 25 16:51:22 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA13463 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:42:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov (sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id QAA13446 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:42:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2A VAX) id 27; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:41:16 PST Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:41:14 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: chuqui@plaidworks.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009B1CC3.D10C90B6.27@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"chuqui@plaidworks.com" "Chuq Von Rospach" 25-MAR-1997 15:59:16.05 > Subj: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? > At 1:47 PM -0800 3/25/97, Vince Sabio wrote: > > >Yes, he's been getting away with it, but I don't hold that up as evidence > >of intellect, that's for sure. > > Agreed. Smart is not in my list of definitions for a person who has > been caught be the police, and continues to operate. Is a person who's > been caught drinking and driving smart if he stops at a bar on the way > home from the court? > Maybe he is smart, but he's just an alcoholic. (Your example, not KK...) Other than that one niggling point, your analogy is appropriate. > > -- > Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome > > > Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) > ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) > > > -HWM From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 25 17:06:03 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA14746 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:58:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov (sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id QAA14735 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2A VAX) id 12; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:57:58 PST Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:57:55 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: chuqui@plaidworks.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009B1CC6.26283706.12@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"chuqui@plaidworks.com" "Chuq Von Rospach" 25-MAR-1997 16:48:15.89 > Subj: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? > At 2:11 PM -0800 3/25/97, Henry W. Miller wrote: > > >Let's be realistic: how many of us > >specifically have something to the effect of: "Manage electronic mailing > >lists that do not pertain to the organizations charter" in our job > >desciptions? > > I do... (oh, shut up, chuq) > OK, I stand corrected. > > Do we need to form an ad-hoc committee for this? Is there > >something of this nature in IETF? Rather than just sit around and > >bitterly complain, I think that we need to get organized, set goals, > >assign tasks and work on a positive solution. > > How much organization do we need? Simply by warning each other of > problems, I think we're cutting a lot of the hassle. Maybe not solving > the problems globally, bu I'll take local for now... > I think that this is part of the problem. We're so busy putting out little fires that the forrest fire is catching up with us. > -- > Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome > > > Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) > ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) > > > -HWM From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 25 17:51:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA18288 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 17:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from solutions.apple.com (solutions.apple.com [17.255.34.19]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id RAA18209 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 17:44:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by solutions.apple.com (8.6.10/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id QAA09121; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:49:19 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <009B1CAE.E7D2B146.6@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:18:33 -0800 To: "Henry W. Miller" , nmehl@leftbank.com From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:11 PM -0800 3/25/97, Henry W. Miller wrote: >Let's be realistic: how many of us >specifically have something to the effect of: "Manage electronic mailing >lists that do not pertain to the organizations charter" in our job >desciptions? I do... (oh, shut up, chuq) > Do we need to form an ad-hoc committee for this? Is there >something of this nature in IETF? Rather than just sit around and >bitterly complain, I think that we need to get organized, set goals, >assign tasks and work on a positive solution. How much organization do we need? Simply by warning each other of problems, I think we're cutting a lot of the hassle. Maybe not solving the problems globally, bu I'll take local for now... -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 05:51:08 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id FAA06153 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 05:43:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.21.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id FAA06136 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 05:43:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2 (unverified [205.160.21.66]) by ec3.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 08:40:44 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 08:40:43 -0500 Subject: Forged subs resume Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Got a couple from nlights today. Originating IP Address is : 207.147.17.130 Translated Name is: 130.denver-002.co.dial-access.att.net Forged as: Nlights.net Supposedly From: Skidout@aol.com Is List-Abuse the place to post such happenings? Or do we continue to use list-managers as well? Gess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Gess Shankar pax vobiscum gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com Earth Channel Communications, LLC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 07:37:07 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA11497 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 07:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [206.246.190.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id HAA11465 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 07:28:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703261528.HAA11465@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: (qmail 13695 invoked from network); 26 Mar 1997 14:17:54 -0000 Received: from ind-0008-7.iquest.net (HELO astinson) (206.246.171.71) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 26 Mar 1997 14:17:53 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 21:51:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: I'm not a virgin anymore Reply-to: amys@iquest.net In-reply-to: References: <199703250900.BAA17663@honor.greatcircle.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'd managed to run my list for almost 2 years without a hint of spam, but today my list got hit twice...by the same person. They generated error messages as they were sent to the -request address of my list, not to the list. here's the culprit: Return-Path: No other headers of consequence. I feel so violated. As far as my list goes, it's very unpublicized. It just doesn't show up anywhere. Now to find a self-help group... Amy Amy Stinson Mailto:amys@iquest.net Http://www.iquest.net/~amys From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 08:37:17 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA18946 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 08:32:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id IAA18894 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 08:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA17784; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 08:28:23 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970325210653.00755830@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 21:11:17 -0800 To: amys@iquest.net From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: I'm not a virgin anymore Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:51 PM 3/25/97 -0500, Amy Stinson wrote: >I'd managed to run my list for almost 2 years without a hint of spam, >but today my list got hit twice...by the same person. They >generated error messages as they were sent to the -request address >of my list, not to the list. >here's the culprit: >Return-Path: >No other headers of consequence. Are you sure this is the culprit? I wouldn't count on a return-path as necessarily revealing anything useful. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Latest site: http://www.ci.fullerton.ca.us/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 09:21:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id JAA22962 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 09:12:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.lynchburg.net (ns.lynchburg.net [208.197.56.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id JAA22915 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 09:12:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [208.197.56.59] by ns.lynchburg.net (SMTPD32-3.03) id A8F412D0102; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:12:20 -0500 Message-ID: <333958B5.6414@Lynchburg.Net> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:11:17 -0500 From: Pat Barrett Reply-To: Pat@Lynchburg.Net Organization: Way Of Grace Fellowship X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: I'm not a virgin anymore References: <3.0.32.19970325210653.00755830@mail.idyllmtn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kynn Bartlett wrote: > > At 09:51 PM 3/25/97 -0500, Amy Stinson wrote: > >I'd managed to run my list for almost 2 years without a hint of spam, > >but today my list got hit twice...by the same person. They > >generated error messages as they were sent to the -request address > >of my list, not to the list. > >here's the culprit: > >Return-Path: > >No other headers of consequence. > > Are you sure this is the culprit? I wouldn't count on > a return-path as necessarily revealing anything useful. nr.net was the source, and they claim that they have shut down the account. -- Pat Barrett This is the day that the LORD has made, rejoice and be glad in it! http://www.UserHome.com/graceway/wogf.htm http://www.UserHome.com/soap/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 11:07:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA07906 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 10:53:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from imssc1.sc.intel.com (imssc1.sc.intel.com [143.183.152.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id KAA07835 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 10:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ludwig.sc.intel.com by imssc1.sc.intel.com (8.8.4/10.0i); Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:52:57 GMT Received: by Ludwig.sc.intel.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23656; Wed, 26 Mar 97 10:50:25 PST Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 10:50:25 PST From: sallyh@Ludwig.sc.intel.com (Sally Hambridge) Message-Id: <9703261850.AA23656@Ludwig.sc.intel.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: sallyh@ludwig.sc.intel.com Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk HMH said: > Do we need to form an ad-hoc committee for this? Is there >something of this nature in IETF? Rather than just sit around and >bitterly complain, I think that we need to get organized, set goals, >assign tasks and work on a positive solution. Well - unless you are writing protocols which will do something about Spam, the IETF is probably not the right forum. There is a Responsible Use of the Net working group (co-chaired by Gary Malkin and by myself) which has an initial draft out called _DON'T SPEW_. (ftp://ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-run-spew-00.txt) But the IETF is an engineering task force, and not a police force, so unless you're contemplating an engineering solution you'll need to address the problem elsewhere. Sally sallyh@ludwig.sc.intel.com Not speaking for Intel From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 12:06:50 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA16983 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:55:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from vms2.isc.rit.edu (vms2.isc.rit.edu [129.21.3.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id LAA16937 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:55:27 -0800 (PST) From: ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Received: from ritvax.isc.rit.edu by ritvax.isc.rit.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #21575) id <01IGYMQKL7AO9S3Z7K@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:54:54 EST Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:49:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: @hotmail In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 26 Mar 1997 10:50:25 -0800 (PST)" <9703261850.AA23656@Ludwig.sc.intel.com> To: sallyh@Ludwig.sc.intel.com Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, sallyh@ludwig.sc.intel.com, ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Message-id: <01IGYNI8AS2Q9S3Z7K@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A little while ago I received 9 subscriptions from the same origin: turtlebug@hotmail.com efayicialay@hotmail.com buckweek@hotmail.com kittyclaws@hotmail.com adoodle@hotmail.com dapeach@hotmail.com preserves@hotmail.com playkid@hotmail.com no1ford@hotmail.com All seemed to be associated with female subscriber names. Any advice? Andrew Davidhazy, andpph@rit.edu - PhotoForum@rit.edu listowner From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 13:06:50 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA26751 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:53:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from atheria.europa.com (atheria.europa.com [199.2.194.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id MAA26723 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:53:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from thetics.europa.com(really [199.2.194.14]) by atheria.europa.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:53:07 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #4 built 1997-Jan-19) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:53:07 -0800 (PST) From: kali To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: @hotmail In-Reply-To: <01IGYNI8AS2Q9S3Z7K@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > A little while ago I received 9 subscriptions from the same origin: > > turtlebug@hotmail.com efayicialay@hotmail.com > buckweek@hotmail.com kittyclaws@hotmail.com > adoodle@hotmail.com dapeach@hotmail.com > preserves@hotmail.com playkid@hotmail.com > no1ford@hotmail.com > > All seemed to be associated with female subscriber names. Any advice? I don't see one name here that looks particularly female vs. looking particularly male. Why does that matter anyways?? I have had a recent increase in the number of hotmail subscribers too. It's been about a week and I haven't had any trouble with any of them. -kali kali@europa.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 13:51:22 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id NAA04725 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 13:42:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca [205.206.207.101]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id NAA04703 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 13:42:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal_ham_g01_u01 (jim.harte-lyne.ca [205.206.207.103]) by hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id QAA04579; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:46:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703262146.QAA04579@hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "James B. Byrne" Organization: Harte & Lyne Limited To: Chuq Von Rospach , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:40:45 -5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin back at it again? CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov In-reply-to: References: <009B1CAE.E7D2B146.6@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 25 Mar 97 at 16:18, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > How much organization do we need? Simply by warning each other of > problems, I think we're cutting a lot of the hassle. Maybe not solving > the problems globally, bu I'll take local for now... > I would say that the closed+confirm option with Majordomo 1.94.1 has essentially done away with KK on my lists. And all those like him. In order to get on they have to give a valid e-mail address that will respond in an intelligent way to the confirmation request. Bogus address and I don't even get to hear about the attempt until I review the logs. I'm sure that there are other ways of defeating this simple mechanism, but all you have to do is drive the cost up enough and the gain isn't worth the expense to them. Like most criminal minds, KK and his ilk are after a quick and easy buck. Make it a little difficult for them so that they have to work for it and most of them will go away. If you have Listserv or Majordomo, turn on the confirm request option. If you don't have either and what you are using to manage your lists doesn't have that feature then get something that does. Regards, Jim --- James B. Byrne Harte & Lyne Limited vox: +1 905 561 1241 9 Brockley Drive fax: +1 905 561 0757 Hamilton, Ontario mailto:byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Canada L8E 3C3 From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 14:51:48 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA16189 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:46:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id OAA15971 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:45:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id OAA18918; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:45:24 -0800 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA02492; Wed, 26 Mar 97 14:45:40 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970326224804.008f1aa4@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:48:04 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Alan Deikman Subject: IETF Cops? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >But the IETF is an engineering task force, and not a police force, >so unless you're contemplating an engineering solution >you'll need to address the problem elsewhere. > >Sally But the best tools for policing are made by good engineers, no? Certainly the IETF would not be executing, or even making, any policies with regard to this, but I can think of a lot of things that they could do to make policing the Internet possible. Regards, -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 15:36:48 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA22812 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:23:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.webex.com (mail.webex.com [206.28.192.78]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id PAA22781 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:23:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.139.142.60] (vknelson.webex.com [205.139.142.60]) by mail.webex.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA07503 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:20:47 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:23:51 -0600 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Valencia King Nelson Subject: First Amendment Rights? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I own/operate an unmoderated genealogy list with an average 500 subscribers and about 40 messages daily. I am hosted as a public service from the ListProc@MsState.Edu In the past 6 months I have had several disruptive/diagreeable people to complain about being placed on the "ignored" list. The complaint is that their right to free speech is being violasted followed up with a threat "to sue". Any and all consultation will be MUCHO appreciated. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> mailto:VKN@aol.com mailto:vknelson@webex.com Valencia King Nelson Co-Owner/Moderator Afrigeneas Mailing List African Ancestored Genealogy http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/History/afrigen/index.html From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 15:51:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA26446 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:45:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id PAA26377; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:45:14 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@honor.greatcircle.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:46:21 -0800 To: Valencia King Nelson , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brent Chapman Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:23 PM -0600 3/26/97, Valencia King Nelson wrote: >I own/operate an unmoderated genealogy list with an average 500 >subscribers and about 40 messages daily. I am hosted as a public >service from the ListProc@MsState.Edu > >In the past 6 months I have had several disruptive/diagreeable > people to complain about being placed on the "ignored" list. >The complaint is that their right to free speech is being violasted >followed up with a threat "to sue". > >Any and all consultation will be MUCHO appreciated. Here is the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, in its entirety: AMENDMENT I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Basicly, First Amendment applies to government restriction of free speech. Unless you're the government, First Amendment isn't relevant here. A list manager is more like a publisher than anything else. Publishers have the right to print or not print whatever they please, subject to such laws as concern libel, slander, national security secrets, and so forth. In general, you do not have to publish anything you don't want to; you can refuse to publish their material for any reason. Let 'em sue, if they can find a lawyer foolish enough to take the case. It'll be entertaining. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Internet/intranet training and consulting, Brent@GreatCircle.COM specializing in network design and security. Great Circle Associates,Inc. Visit us at http://www.greatcircle.com/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 16:06:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA27287 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:51:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id PAA27280 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.5/1.2.3) id QAA17840 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:50:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199703262350.QAA17840@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: First Amendment Rights? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:50:58 -0700 (MST) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > In the past 6 months I have had several disruptive/diagreeable people to > complain about being placed on the "ignored" list. The complaint is > that their right to free speech is being violasted followed up with a > threat "to sue". Ignore them. Nobody has a "First Amendment Right" to post to a privately-run mailing list. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 16:14:26 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA28683 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:01:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id QAA28653 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA24453; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:57:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970326043822.0076e0e4@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 04:40:01 -0800 To: Valencia King Nelson From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights? Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 05:23 PM 3/26/97 -0600, Valencia King Nelson wrote: >In the past 6 months I have had several disruptive/diagreeable > people to complain about being placed on the "ignored" list. >The complaint is that their right to free speech is being violasted >followed up with a threat "to sue". Do you have any sort of intro or "acceptable use policy"? I would put it in writing, and communicate it to all members of the list, that they must play by certain rules or get dropped from the list. The right to free speech is not an issue here at all, in my opinion. If someone ranted at me about that, I'd tell them to go ahead and try to sue; I've never known the right to free speech to include the right to use someone else's publishing medium (e.g. a mailing list) against their wishes. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Latest site: http://www.ci.fullerton.ca.us/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 16:52:33 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA04652 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from the-great-machine.mit.edu (THE-GREAT-MACHINE.MIT.EDU [18.238.0.254]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id QAA04509 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jered@localhost) by the-great-machine.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA23712; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 19:35:37 -0500 To: Valencia King Nelson Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights? References: From: Jered J Floyd Date: 26 Mar 1997 19:35:37 -0500 In-Reply-To: Valencia King Nelson's message of Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:23:51 -0600 Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.23/XEmacs 20.1 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Whomever these people are, they are twits, and you should ignore them moreso. Your lists are not public space, you are not the U.S government, the first amendment applies in no discernible way. (Standard disclaimer: I Am Not A Lawyer.) Let me throw in a plug: If you're intersted in First Amendment, censorship, and electronic freedom issues, I would suggest joining the fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu mailing list. (Or, rather, the digest version, fight-censorship-digest. It gets quite some volume, about 2 digests a day.) List members include journalists from many major news agencies and papers, many members of electronic rights organizations, representatives of software makers, and many others. Use majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu to subscribe. --Jered jered@mit.edu From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 17:06:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA06040 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from atheria.europa.com (atheria.europa.com [199.2.194.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id QAA05978 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:43:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from thetics.europa.com(really [199.2.194.14]) by atheria.europa.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:42:47 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #4 built 1997-Jan-19) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:42:47 -0800 (PST) From: kali Reply-To: kali To: Valencia King Nelson cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I own/operate an unmoderated genealogy list with an average 500 > subscribers and about 40 messages daily. I am hosted as a public > service from the ListProc@MsState.Edu > > In the past 6 months I have had several disruptive/diagreeable > people to complain about being placed on the "ignored" list. > The complaint is that their right to free speech is being violasted > followed up with a threat "to sue". > > Any and all consultation will be MUCHO appreciated. Like everyone else said, it has nothing to do with the First Amendment, so you can tell them to shove it, BUT on the other hand, you are saying it's not moderated yet you have people on "ignore". To be fair, you should tell them to "shape up or ship out". If they can't be respectful of others on the list, they don't deserve to be on there in the first place. I say kick them off and let them sue. -k From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 17:16:01 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA06812 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from greatkhan.netmeg.net (greatkhan.netmeg.net [208.139.83.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id QAA06787 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:46:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by greatkhan.netmeg.net (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0wA3Kn-0001UqC; Wed, 26 Mar 97 19:46 EST Message-Id: Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 19:46 EST From: matt@netmeg.net (Matt Magri) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Valencia King Nelson wrote: > In the past 6 months I have had several disruptive/diagreeable > people to complain about being placed on the "ignored" list. > The complaint is that their right to free speech is being violasted > followed up with a threat "to sue". In your most profusely apologetic officialese tell them, "Oh, I'm sorry, but now that a lawsuit has been proposed I'm no longer at liberty to discuss this matter directly with you. If you'll have your lawyer contact me I will be happy to put them in touch with my lawyers so that this matter can be resolved." If you have a mailing address you don't mind giving out, change the "have your lawyer contact me" to "have your lawyer contact me in writing". And that's that. Very apologetically don't let them continue to try to discuss it with you... they've placed the matter out of your hands now. As others have pointed out, you're not in any danger legally and, as we've probably all seen before, talk about "suing" in this context is schoolyard bullying. If you are concerned that it may be more than that, keep a record of the abusive behavior. And if you are worried that having it hosted at MsState.Edu could be used as a basis to force you to keep disruptive people on the list, you may want to look around a bit to see if there's somewhere else it could be hosted. That way you could make the switch if it comes to that. Matt From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 17:23:42 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA05375 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:39:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhub.Stanford.EDU (mailhub.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.128]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id QAA05345 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:39:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [171.64.76.140] (Cervantes.Stanford.EDU [171.64.76.140]) by mailhub.Stanford.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5/L) with ESMTP id QAA12435; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:39:15 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: wbarr@popserver.stanford.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:45:58 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "William P. Barr" Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights? Cc: Valencia King Nelson Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I own/operate an unmoderated genealogy list with an average 500 >subscribers and about 40 messages daily. I am hosted as a public >service from the ListProc@MsState.Edu > >In the past 6 months I have had several disruptive/diagreeable > people to complain about being placed on the "ignored" list. >The complaint is that their right to free speech is being violasted >followed up with a threat "to sue". This is completely bogus and they will lose. Emailing lists are PRIVATE forums. End of story. You are not violating their rights because they are perfectly free to speak elsewhere. These people need to learn exactly what their rights are before they start screaming about their infringement. Probably too illiterate to have read and comprehended the Constitution in the first place. Moreover, if they try to sue, simple file a rule 11 countersuit against a frivolous law suit; this is a CRIMINAL proceeding. :) Bill -- William Barr, Stanford Computer Forum wbarr@leland.stanford.edu Listowner: butler-sql, harpoon, phoenix-command, tacops, z-scale, n-scale@lists.stanford.edu "My opinions are mine and only mine." From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 17:37:05 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA14808 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:29:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [206.246.190.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id RAA14785 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:29:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703270129.RAA14785@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: (qmail 10916 invoked from network); 27 Mar 1997 00:33:31 -0000 Received: from ind-0007-27.iquest.net (HELO astinson) (206.246.171.59) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 27 Mar 1997 00:33:31 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 19:36:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: I'm not a virgin anymore Reply-to: amys@iquest.net In-reply-to: <199703261528.HAA11465@honor.greatcircle.com> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Since it was pointed out to me that the headers are of some consequence, here they are. I just didn't see any that pointed back to anyone but the address that I gave originally. Here's the pitch: We are a free service to you. If you find that the internet is a clutter of information, and you don't have a month of Sundays to go looking for New and Unique offers. We are your solution! Subject:Subscribe TEAM Reply to:team@nr.net The below are just a couple of examples of what we have found. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Now I don't know about you guys, but someone who'll for free send me the best of the best spams is just what I've been waiting for. That counselor at the "Bobby Knight Crisis Center" was right!! When it's inevitable, you just might as well relax and enjoy it. (tongue firmly planted in cheek) Delivered-To: amys@iquest.net Received: (qmail 6353 invoked from network); 25 Mar 1997 18:11:30 -0000 Received: from mordor.cs.du.edu (130.253.192.87) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 25 Mar 1997 18:11:29 -0000 Received: from nyx.net (nyx10.nyx.net) by mordor.cs.du.edu with SMTP id AA29846 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:41:30 -0700 Received: by nyx.net (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06274; Tue, 25 Mar 97 11:11:17 MST Date: Tue, 25 Mar 97 11:11:17 MST X-Envelope-From: team@nr.net Tue Mar 25 11:11:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: from 206.135.139.207 ([206.135.139.207]) by nyx.net (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06186; Tue, 25 Mar 97 11:11:11 MST Old-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 97 11:11:04 MST From: team@nr.net Message-Id: <9703251811.AA06186@nyx.net> Subject: Free Service Apparently-To: X-Diagnostic: undecipherable, help sent X-Envelope-To: machine-knit-request X-UIDL: 7b979ec3f4cee3ec46b40fc0985fa8c8 Amy Stinson Mailto:amys@iquest.net Http://www.iquest.net/~amys From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 18:22:16 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA24135 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:19:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id SAA24055 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:19:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA12682 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 20:18:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from hou-tx1-05.ix.netcom.com(204.30.68.37) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma012653; Wed Mar 26 20:18:23 1997 Message-ID: <3339F4DF.7945@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 20:17:35 -0800 From: Alan Czarnek X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-compaq (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > As others have pointed out, you're not in any danger legally and, as > we've probably all seen before, talk about "suing" in this context is > schoolyard bullying. If you are concerned that it may be more than > that, keep a record of the abusive behavior. And if you are worried > that having it hosted at MsState.Edu could be used as a basis to force > you to keep disruptive people on the list ------------ This does bring up a good question - can a list hosted by a governmental entity (a state university) really be considered private property? After all, public funds are being used to run the list........ Someone said the First Ammendment doesn't apply unless you are 'the state.' Well, apparently in this case, 'the state' owns the server. Looks like the best bet would be to contract with a private company to host the list and pay all costs out of your own pocket..... Alan Cz Oh, yeah, one more thing..... I am not a lawyer............ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 19:23:01 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA29593 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:52:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id SAA29525 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kynn@localhost) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id SAA27549; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:47:52 -0800 From: Kynn Bartlett Message-Id: <199703270247.SAA27549@ayla.idyllmtn.com> Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights? To: alancz@ix.netcom.com (Alan Czarnek) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:47:51 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <3339F4DF.7945@ix.netcom.com> from "Alan Czarnek" at Mar 26, 97 08:17:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan wrote: > This does bring up a good question - can a list hosted by a governmental > entity (a state university) really be considered private property? > After all, public funds are being used to run the list........ You can't walk into any state classroom and demand that you be allowed to lecture because of the "public funds" principle. You can't demand that the Governor's secretary take your dictation and write your letters because of the "public funds" principle. You can't force the university printing house to publish your books for free because of the "public funds" principle. Why should you be able to do whatever you want on a mailing list, just because the server may be partially supported by taxpayer moneys? Can Joe Random Taxpayer walk into the nearest university lab and demand unlimited computer time? After all, "public funds"... --Kynn From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 22:21:16 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA29242 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:41:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id VAA29106 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA01507 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:40:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from 249.houston-001.tx.dial-access.att.net(207.147.96.249) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma029898; Wed Mar 26 23:34:59 1997 Message-ID: <333A22F5.27B0@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:34:13 -0800 From: Alan Czarnek X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-compaq (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights? References: <199703270247.SAA27549@ayla.idyllmtn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I wrote: > > Alan wrote: > > This does bring up a good question - can a list hosted by a governmental > > entity (a state university) really be considered private property? > > After all, public funds are being used to run the list........ > Kynn wrote.... > Can Joe Random Taxpayer walk into the nearest university > lab and demand unlimited computer time? After all, "public > funds"... > ----- That's not what we are talking about. We are talking about Joe Random Listowner going into the university lab, picking up a computer and talking it home and claiming that it is their private property. If the listowner claims to actually 'own' the list as private property, but the cost of running it is done at public expense, well, it seems similar to that, at least to me. I don't what the laws are in your state, but in my state, plenty of people have gotten in legal hot water for converting public resources to private benefit...... and individuals have been indicted and removed from elected office for doing things like using county workers (on county time) to do yardwork at their personal residences and things like that. I still say, for maximum safety, use a private listserv host (I do)..... and if you use a publicly owned host, refrain from claiming that the list is your 'private property'...... When you really get down to it, lists are really owned by whoever pays the bills. my 2 cents, Alan Cz Once again, I am not a lawyer, I just read the newspapers...... From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 26 23:06:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA08135 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:59:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from kparker.nai.net (kparker.nai.net [208.133.166.213]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id WAA08098 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (admin@localhost) by kparker.nai.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA02739; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 02:01:05 -0500 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 02:01:05 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Parker To: List Managers , Listmom Talk Subject: PC Computing Encourages E-Mail List Abuse Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A person on the unix-listproc list posted about an article in the April, 1997 PC Computing magazine, so I got a copy. Yes, on page 202, there is an article titled, "How to Use Technology to Get Ahead, Torture your Enemies and Destroy the Competition, Without Getting Caught!" [Their exclamation point]. The very first item, "Reform the Office E-Mail Gnat", includes: "Treat your friend to a feast of e-mail from your favorite 500 or 600 Internet discussion groups and mailing lists. To sign someone up for a mailing list, you typically need only to send a message to the list server with his name and e-mail address. You'll find a directory of over 67,000 list servers organized by topic at www.liszt.com. The only way for your enemy to unsubscribe to these lists is to manually send e-mail messages to each and every one of them, asking to be removed from the mailing list. Ouch. He'll be so busy handling this deluge of mail, he won't have time to bother you." Doesn't THIS sound like what some people are doing RIGHT NOW? I think Ziff-Davis has gone overboard this time, and intend to say so in a letter or two to the editor, but the damage may already be done. (By the way, they also have a section on mail-bombing "enemies" with, say, 400 mb attachments to E-Mail... Of course, some of those people out there consider US to be the "enemy"...) Comments? Has anyone else read this issue yet? Anyone else as upset as I am? Till later, Ken Parker (http://kparker.nai.net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 02:37:02 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id CAA27788 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 02:35:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dulce.mic.dundee.ac.uk (dulce.mic.dundee.ac.uk [134.36.34.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id CAA27758 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 02:35:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from perle-4.mic.dundee.ac.uk by dulce.mic.dundee.ac.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1389.3) id GXW3086T; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:32:30 -0000 Received: by perle-4.mic.dundee.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <01BC3A9A.40B1CCE0@perle-4.mic.dundee.ac.uk>; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:33:04 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC3A9A.40B1CCE0@perle-4.mic.dundee.ac.uk> From: Andy C To: "List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" , "'Valencia King Nelson'" Subject: RE: First Amendment Rights? Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:22:10 -0000 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can I ask who these people are ? I know of at least three people out there who get a kick out of disrupting lists in this manner and use the threat to sue to frighten list members. Should there be a new class of list abuse, ie not spamming but deliberate attempts to bring lists down with disruptive behaviour ? Andy C ---------- From: Valencia King Nelson[SMTP:vknelson@webex.com] Sent: 26 March 1997 23:23 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: First Amendment Rights? I own/operate an unmoderated genealogy list with an average 500 subscribers and about 40 messages daily. I am hosted as a public service from the ListProc@MsState.Edu In the past 6 months I have had several disruptive/diagreeable people to complain about being placed on the "ignored" list. The complaint is that their right to free speech is being violasted followed up with a threat "to sue". Any and all consultation will be MUCHO appreciated. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 04:51:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id EAA07903 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 04:48:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.webex.com (mail.webex.com [206.28.192.78]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id EAA07896 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 04:48:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.139.142.60] (vknelson.webex.com [205.139.142.60]) by mail.webex.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id HAA11973 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 07:46:19 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 06:49:27 -0600 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Valencia King Nelson Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A million thanx to each list member who responded to my query. Valencia <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> mailto:VKN@aol.com mailto:vknelson@webex.com Valencia King Nelson Co-Owner/Moderator Afrigeneas Mailing List African Ancestored Genealogy http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/History/afrigen/index.html From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 05:51:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id FAA11942 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 05:38:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from nthq8.sba.gov (nthq8.sba.gov [165.110.1.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id FAA11931 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 05:38:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by nthq8.sba.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC3A8A.4DBE5B70@nthq8.sba.gov>; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:38:54 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Chudamani, Sury" To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: majordomo and vacation Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:33:28 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I hope this is the right forum for posing this question. One of the members on a majordomo list that we run went on vacation for a week. He truned on his vacation message and apparently had the ruleset incorrectly to reply to all. This was, I believe a Novell (Groupwise ??) set-up. In any case when someone posted a message to the group it got a mail loop going with this guy's vacation message being sent to everyone hundreds of time. What puzzles me is that the From says owner-acemg@blahblahblah and the /etc/aliases has the list admin guy as owner-acemg. None of the "From" "From:" addressess explicitly say acemg they all say owner-acemg etc. Is it possible that when someone has reply to all set that it replies to the To: as well as the CC: addresses. If so other than setting up the list as moderated is there a easy fix. Perhaps its our acemg.config file which needs working. Any suggestions/tips are welcome thanks chuda sury.chudamani@sba.gov From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 06:06:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id GAA14490 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 06:02:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.21.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id GAA14465 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 06:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec12.earthchannel.com (unverified [205.160.21.75]) by ec3.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:02:35 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:51:52 -0500 Subject: Forged subscriptions resume Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I got a dozen this morning from the previously known sources oscva, gte etc. The victims are as follows: From: htran1@erols.com From: elee2@Aries.EE.McGill.CA From: johnkar@cris.com From: landfall@soback.kornet.nm.kr From: junecho@idt.net Anyone making any attempts to trace this person or persons? Gess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Gess Shankar pax vobiscum gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com Earth Channel Communications, LLC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 07:06:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA21384 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 07:01:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from prawn.fishy.net (flounder.fishy.net [206.156.56.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id HAA21354 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 07:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from grayling.fishy.net (grayling.fishy.net [172.16.3.90]) by prawn.fishy.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA30520; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:00:44 -0500 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:00:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199703271500.KAA30520@prawn.fishy.net> X-Sender: bonnie@pop.fishy.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: gess@earthchannel.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Bonnie Scott Subject: Re: Forged subscriptions resume Cc: majordomo-owner@listserv.prodigy.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My morning is similar: newnet-list-request@eskimo.com majordomo@beyondirc.net were subscribed to all lists, AND your victims also made an appearance: At 08:51 AM 3/27/97 -0500, Gess Shankar wrote: >I got a dozen this morning from the previously known sources oscva, >gte etc. The victims are as follows: >From: htran1@erols.com On two lists, no unusual requests >From: elee2@Aries.EE.McGill.CA On one list, ditto >From: johnkar@cris.com On two lists, ditto >From: landfall@soback.kornet.nm.kr Not found. >From: junecho@idt.net On one list, no unusual requests It looks like they are gearing up for an info-bombing attack, but it hasn't started yet. Has anyone contacted the victims to make sure it was an attack? Bonnie Scott Prodigy, Inc. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 08:21:22 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA00133 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:00:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from kparker.nai.net (kparker.nai.net [208.133.166.213]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id HAA29835 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 07:59:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (admin@localhost) by kparker.nai.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA05114; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:01:15 -0500 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:01:15 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Parker To: jonathon cc: List Managers Subject: Re: PC Computing Encourages E-Mail List Abuse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jonathon, My point was not that our lists can be (and should be) protected against attacks like this, but that PC Computing is a mainstream, mass market computer magazine that's read by scores of people, many less than computer literate. This article puts these actions out there in a fairly positive light, without discussing the possible impact on list owners, or, for that matter, Internet bandwidth. If you really have 67,000 lists in www.liszt.com, many will NOT be protected... In other words, I consider it irresponsible journalism to suggest to people actions like this without discussing the consequences, and how third parties may have to spend time cleaning up after them. I hope their ears burn with all the letters to the editor, and I'm SURE going to think twice before buying Ziff-Davis magazines in the future! On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, jonathon wrote: The problem is that the "less bright" will be reading this magazine, which, by the way, does NOT discuss E-Mail address spoofing, so if we get a spate of list subscriptions because of it, they'll be easily traced. Many of the "targets" wouldn't be technically knowledgable either and I haven't heard of any Windows 95 versions of Procmail... Till later, Ken Parker P.S. I appreciate your ideas on how I can protect myself. I DO have Procmail. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 08:53:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA06427 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:33:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from solutions.apple.com (solutions.apple.com [17.255.34.19]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id IAA06420 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by solutions.apple.com (8.6.10/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id IAA25751; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:33:46 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:31:48 -0800 To: Ken Parker , List Managers , Listmom Talk From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: PC Computing Encourages E-Mail List Abuse Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:01 PM -0800 3/26/97, Ken Parker wrote: > Yes, on page 202, there is an article titled, "How to Use >Technology to Get Ahead, Torture your Enemies and Destroy >the Competition, Without Getting Caught!" [Their exclamation >point]. Wow. For the first time, I feel tempted to give these people a taste of their own medicine. Grr. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 08:58:01 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA06739 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:34:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from solutions.apple.com (solutions.apple.com [17.255.34.19]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id IAA06636 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:33:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by solutions.apple.com (8.6.10/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id IAA25745; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:33:37 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:30:05 -0800 To: gess@earthchannel.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Forged subscriptions resume Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One new vector, too: ---- >From htran1@erols.com Wed Mar 26 19:05:57 PST 1997 >From maxad Wed Mar 26 19:05:55 1997 Received: (from maxad@localhost) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA20928 for listproc-real; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 19:05:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from bos1e.delphi.com (bos1e.delphi.com [199.93.4.5]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA20925 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 19:05:53 -0800 (PST) From: htran1@erols.com Received: from smtp.delphi.com (kpham@spg-as80s70.erols.com) by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-7 #10880) id <01IGZ2EJH84G9LVIQ3@delphi.com> for listproc@plaidworks.com; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:03:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed Mar 26 22:00:45 1997 To: listproc@plaidworks.com Message-id: <01IGZ2HXVYZE9LVIQ3@delphi.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT subscribe pit-penguins htran1 erols --- Note that delphi/erols was nice enough to put an account name in the header. Whether it's good or not, I dunno, but I've emailed this to the erols postmaster... At 5:51 AM -0800 3/27/97, Gess Shankar wrote: >I got a dozen this morning from the previously known sources oscva, >gte etc. The victims are as follows: > >From: htran1@erols.com >From: elee2@Aries.EE.McGill.CA >From: johnkar@cris.com >From: landfall@soback.kornet.nm.kr >From: junecho@idt.net > >Anyone making any attempts to trace this person or persons? > >Gess > >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >Gess Shankar pax vobiscum > >gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com >Earth Channel Communications, LLC. >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 09:22:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id JAA11904 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:15:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id JAA11839 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:15:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-961106) id JAA26844; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:12:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway.tssi.com [198.147.197.29]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA18749 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:07:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA07007 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:07:18 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08681 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:07:15 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199703271707.LAA08681@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: PC Computing Encourages E-Mail List Abuse To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:07:15 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq wrote: > > Yes, on page 202, there is an article titled, "How to Use > >Technology to Get Ahead, Torture your Enemies and Destroy > >the Competition, Without Getting Caught!" [Their exclamation > >point]. > > Wow. For the first time, I feel tempted to give these people a taste of > their own medicine. Given that this is the April issue, I suspect this is the editor's idea of a 'funny' article. I've not been impressed with this magazine for some time now, dating back at least to when they gave Windows 95 glowing reviews, this doesn't improve my opinion of it. -- Mike Nolan From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 10:06:46 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id JAA18487 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:57:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [198.7.0.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id JAA18465 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:57:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [38.217.47.2] ([38.217.47.2]) by mail2.panix.com (8.8.5/8.7.1/PanixM1.0) with ESMTP id MAA05316 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:54:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:37:10 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Kent S. Larsen II" Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk While I generally agree that private lists are private and that the listowner controls, still, I think there may be some possible legal pitfalls. I don't know if this is the best forum for discussing these pitfalls, if it isn't let me know of a better one. Its certainly on-topic for this list IMO. I agree with Alan's comment that in the case presented yesterday, the listowner may be at risk because the list is hosted on a state university machine. In this case, are you the listowner, or is the university, or is the state? The issue of ownership may also come up in other places. For example, if you run the list on your ISP, could it be considered to be your ISP's list? I don't believe so, but what if you got into a conflict with your ISP over the list and ended up in a court with a judge poorly acquainted with the Internet? (maybe this is a red herring, but it doesn't seem far fetched at all!) Another possible problem (and one that may be relevant to the case discussed yesterday) is the nature of the relationship between the listowner and the subscribers. Generally, the subscribers don't actually pay money for the right to join, but they are contributing to the list (perhaps this is a form of payment? They are giving the listowner stuff to publish - and magazines and newspapers often have to pay for material to publish). So perhaps there is a kind of implied contract between the listowner and the list members. Your list rules are some of the terms of this contract. The contract also has implied rules - one of which may be the right of the list member to post to the list. If you place a list member on 'ignore' you may be breaking this contract, giving the list member grounds to sue you. I should say two things about this. 1) I AM NOT A LAWYER. and 2) These are merely musings about the issues involved. While I am leaning toward this view of the listowner-listmember relationship, I'm not emotionally tied to it, and I realize it could be completely wrong. This is certainly a legalistic interpretation of the relationship. I'd be interested in hearing other interpretations! If I'm right, however, it would be wise for listowners to spell things out in a welcome document, and try to keep the welcome document up-to-date with all rules adopted. Kent Larsen >From Kent Larsen , owner of Mormon-index, a weekly message containing announcements of Mormon internet resources. To subscribe, send an email message to majordomo@lists.panix.com, with "subscribe mormon-index" in the body of the message or visit our subscription page at http://www.panix.com/~klarsen/mormon-index/MIsubscribe.html Announcements should be sent to mormon-index@lists.panix.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 11:52:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA06141 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:41:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id LAA05952; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:40:06 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@honor.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:41:35 -0800 To: "D. J. Bernstein" , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent Chapman Subject: Attempting to forge email from me Cc: postmaster@math.uic.edu, root@math.uic.edu, postmaster@uic.edu, root@uic.edu, edz@UIC.EDU (UIC.EDU Tech/Admin/Zone contact), mcb@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mr. Bernstein: The message below, which convincingly appears to have been sent by you, is an attempt to forge email from my address. This is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE, no matter what your reason might have been. For your information, your original posting was being held for review because the address you posted it from (djb@koobera.math.uic.edu) didn't match the address you are subscribed to the list with (djb-hey-why-the-fuck-doesnt-majordomo-accept-slashes@koobera.math.uic.edu, which is apparently the result of some previous tantrum on your part). List-Managers has been set to allow postings only from subscribers for quite some time, due to the high volume of spam that was being targetted at the list. Normally, we review such diverted postings every few days, and your announcement would have been posted then. The person who usually handles that task, however, has been out of the country all month, and I haven't had time to deal with it myself, so we're a little slower than normal right now. If you had contacted me, instead of immediately trying to forge email from me, I would have been happy to explain the situation to you, and to go dig out and deal with the message that was being held for review. Your forged message (the first part of which is included below) was also intercepted and held for review. I won't tell you why, because I'm sure that would simply encourage you to try again. This behavior is absolutely, unequivocally inappropriate, and will not be tolerated. Knock it off. -Brent --- begin forwarded text Received: from koobera.math.uic.edu (koobera.math.uic.edu [128.248.178.247]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id MAA14685 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:44:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17468 invoked by uid 666); 25 Mar 1997 20:51:28 -0000 Date: 25 Mar 1997 20:51:28 -0000 Message-ID: <19970325205128.17467.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> From: brent@greatcircle.com (yeah right) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: announcing list-protection list (This message is actually from Dan Bernstein, djb@koobera.math.uic.edu. The first copy was silently diverted by majordomo since it wasn't from my subscription address. So now I'm using a subscription address. This illustrates both the inconvenience and the futility of security through obscurity.) --- end forwarded text -- Brent Chapman Internet/intranet training and consulting, Brent@GreatCircle.COM specializing in network design and security. Great Circle Associates,Inc. Visit us at http://www.greatcircle.com/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 12:21:45 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA11256 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:16:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id MAA11179 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:16:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 15:16:39 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Multiple subscription requests from gwi.com Organization: SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9703271516.aa26067@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Waaaaaaatch out... Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html ----- Forwarded message # 1: Received: from lee.pica.army.mil by fsm-1.pica.army.mil id aa24935; 27 Mar 97 12:57 EST Received: from m20.boston.juno.com by Lee.pica.army.mil id aa17472; 27 Mar 97 12:55 EST Received: (from daren_nelson@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MSY29864; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:50:50 EST To: LISTSERV@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu, gestalt-selectors-list-request@bio.vu.nl, listserv@ulkyvm.louisville.edu, majordomo@iis.ee.ethz.ch, autoshare@ixmedia.com, LISTSERV@msu.edu, listserv@sjuvm.stjohns.edu, hypercardlist@pogo.interedu.com, igor-request@pica.army.mil, listserv@ledet.com, listserv%technion.ac.il@pica.army.mil, LISTSERV@uafsysb.uark.edu, info-appletalk-request@andrew.cmu.edu, LISTSERV@pucc.princeton.edu, info-labview-request@pica.army.mil, listserv@nic.surfnet.nl, info-mcl-request@digitool.com, listproc@whoville.austin.apple.com, LISTSERV@utarlvm1.uta.edu, macjordomo@jca.fr Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:50:10 PST Message-ID: <19970327.095012.4318.4.daren_nelson@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0 From: Daren Nelson subscribe list Daren_Nelson@gwi.com ----- End of forwarded messages From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 12:37:00 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA11495 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:18:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from greatkhan.netmeg.net (greatkhan.netmeg.net [208.139.83.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id MAA11230 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:16:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by greatkhan.netmeg.net (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0wALaP-0001UqC; Thu, 27 Mar 97 15:15 EST Message-Id: Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 15:15 EST From: matt@netmeg.net (Matt Magri) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kent S. Larsen II wrote: >I agree with Alan's comment that in the case presented yesterday, the >listowner may be at risk because the list is hosted on a state university >machine. In this case, are you the listowner, or is the university, or is >the state? It certainly has the potential to muddy the waters. It's my understanding that there are private companies that will host lists as a public service, so maybe that's a route to try for those who are particularly concerned. >The issue of ownership may also come up in other places. For example, if >you run the list on your ISP, could it be considered to be your ISP's list? >I don't believe so, but what if you got into a conflict with your ISP over >the list and ended up in a court with a judge poorly acquainted with the >Internet? (maybe this is a red herring, but it doesn't seem far fetched at >all!) It's hard to imagine a scenario where an ISP would care about who you let onto your list or not. All I can come up with is: a) someone complained a lot to the ISP about being kicked off the list b) the ISP was an idiot c) the list was being provided for free and/or with the understanding that the ISP could make changes like this. Personally, even if I was providing a free home for a list it would be under the understanding that decisions about the list were totally up to the list manager. Otherwise I'm making myself responsible for whatever decisions the LM makes. Why bother? (unless "b" applies ;-) ). >Generally, the subscribers don't actually pay money for the right to join, >but they are contributing to the list (perhaps this is a form of payment? >They are giving the listowner stuff to publish - and magazines and >newspapers often have to pay for material to publish). People also often have to pay to receive a magazine or a newspaper, so it seems pretty likely that we're talking about a different kind of animal here. It's more like you own the place where folks are coming together to discuss things. You don't own what was said (unless they agree to that ahead of time) and you can decide who can and can't come in. >So perhaps there is a kind of implied contract between the listowner and >the list members. Your list rules are some of the terms of this contract. >The contract also has implied rules - one of which may be the right of the >list member to post to the list. If they follow the list rules, you mean? I dunno. I guess if you put a "The list manager reserves the right, but not the obligation, to remove anyone from the list if, at the sole discretion of the list manager, that person is too disruptive to the list." Amateur lawyerese. That might even work for a list hosted on a state university machine since it makes the nature of the list access clear. >If you place a list member on 'ignore' you may be breaking this contract, >giving the list member grounds to sue you. It's not clear what the damages are in this case. They didn't pay for anything, after all. At any rate, I wouldn't think it would even be possible unless you made some the-list-is-supported-by-the-state argument. Even that's far from clear-cut. >If I'm right, however, it would be wise for listowners to spell things out >in a welcome document, and try to keep the welcome document up-to-date with >all rules adopted. Even if you are wrong, it's a nice thing to do for new and potential subscribers. Matt From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 12:59:56 1997 Received: from koobera.math.uic.edu (koobera.math.uic.edu [128.248.178.247]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id MAA17132 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26589 invoked by uid 666); 27 Mar 1997 21:06:51 -0000 Date: 27 Mar 1997 21:06:51 -0000 Message-ID: <19970327210651.26588.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> From: "D. J. Bernstein" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: list protection Destroying the reliability of Internet mail won't stop spammers. Need a particular spelling in the From line? No problem; they'll copy the spelling. Need a complete header? No problem; they'll copy someone's complete header. Doing some Received tests? No problem; they'll send mail through one of the >100000 SMTP servers that don't record sources. Doing ``administrativia'' tests? No problem; they'll filter the same words that you do. A year later you find yourself surrounded by half-assed ``security'' mechanisms that make life difficult for normal users (``sorry, folks, can't send mail to the list unless you want anyone to be able to destroy your subscription'') while the unsolicited commercial e-mail continues to pour in. I've set up a mailing list to discuss attacks against mailing lists and mailing list subscribers, and to discuss methods of protecting against attacks. To join, send a message to djb-list-protection-subscribe@koobera.math.uic.edu Unlike the list-abuse mailing list, list-protection is open, with archives available to anyone who wants to see them. We need security mechanisms that _don't_ rely on Chapman-style obscurity. > List-Managers has been set to allow postings only from subscribers for > quite some time, Ah, yes, more than a month. I'm impressed. ---Dan Let your users manage their own mailing lists. http://pobox.com/~djb/qmail.html From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 14:24:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA28156 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:07:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from proxy1.ba.best.com (proxy1.ba.best.com [206.184.139.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id OAA28110 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:07:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from shellx.best.com (shellx.best.com [206.86.0.11]) by proxy1.ba.best.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA05284; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:03:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shellx.best.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) id NAA05113; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 13:31:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 13:31:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703272131.NAA05113@shellx.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: klarsen@panix.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@shellx.best.com In-reply-to: (klarsen@panix.com) Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights? Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:37:10 -0500 From: "Kent S. Larsen II" I agree with Alan's comment that in the case presented yesterday, the listowner may be at risk because the list is hosted on a state university machine. In this case, are you the listowner, or is the university, or is the state? I doubt it. I ran my list for 6 years on a computer at the University of Calif at San Diego. There was never once any implication that I had to comply with any rules particular to UCSD or the state of Calif. And my list talks a lot about lawsuits and government abuse. I dont believe we ever talked about UC, but we certainly could have. (I have since moved the list to a private ISP at the request of UCSD since I am no longer a grad student there.) I think the only thing they cared about was bandwidth. And how is running a list at UCSD different from, say, my department's newsletter (paid for by state funds)? It has an editor and items are considered for inclusion based on topicality, length, content, etc. Even as a member of that dept, I could not get whatever I wanted printed. Given the nature of the newsletter, pretty much anything anyone wanted to write would indeed get printed, but the editor always had the last word. Many state-funded universities publish literary or academic journals. They have the right to reject anything submitted to them. Another question might be does the ISP or the state or the university, etc etc, have any say over what must go through the list or what can't go through the list? This is completely different from the original question of rights of subscribers. If UCSD did take an interest in the content of my list, they probably would threaten to shut it down if I didnt comply (and they could). But they would be doing this for reasons internal to them, not because of potential liability if I refuse to allow certain posts. Generally, the subscribers don't actually pay money for the right to join, but they are contributing to the list (perhaps this is a form of payment? They are giving the listowner stuff to publish - and magazines and newspapers often have to pay for material to publish). You obviously havent tried to sell something youve written :-). Most magazines and newspapers do not pay their contributers. Only the ones turning a profit do...and not all of them (granted, their circulation is far higher than all the others put together). Most places pay in copies of the issue the submission appears in. Also, people do not get paid for publishing in scientific or academic journals (as far as I know). Besides, I am not getting anything from my list, beyond personal satisfaction. My subscribers are not providing me with a service or payment beyond the support and information any other subscriber recieves. Nor do I get payments from elsewhere (such as advertisers). I have no obligation to my subscribers, other than those I choose to take on (and moral or ethical ones). I get no money at all for running this list and webpage; in fact it costs me $10/month. Obviously, I get a lot out of this, or I wouldn't do it, but it's not anything tangible. So perhaps there is a kind of implied contract between the listowner and the list members. Your list rules are some of the terms of this contract. The contract also has implied rules - one of which may be the right of the list member to post to the list. Nope, sorry, no way. I don't even have an obligation to keep someone on the list. I have terminated people for violating my rules. If you place a list member on 'ignore' you may be breaking this contract, giving the list member grounds to sue you. I would say that the subscriber has no grounds to sue for recieving a "partial service" if they would have no grounds to sue should the service stop. If I close my list because Im sick of running it, no one would suggest I owe anybody anything. So why would removing some of the service be a legal problem? If I'm right, however, it would be wise for listowners to spell things out in a welcome document, and try to keep the welcome document up-to-date with all rules adopted. I think this is a good idea for a lot of reasons, though I believe it is unnessessary from a legal standpoint. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 15:09:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA07172 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:01:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.21.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id PAA07136 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec12.earthchannel.com (unverified [205.160.21.75]) by ec3.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:59:49 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:49:12 -0500 Subject: Re: PC Computing Encourages E-Mail List Abuse Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:01 PM -0800 3/26/97, Ken Parker wrote: > Yes, on page 202, there is an article titled, "How to Use >Technology to Get Ahead, Torture your Enemies and Destroy >the Competition, Without Getting Caught!" [Their exclamation >point]. I lost the original reference to the original article. Which issue is this magnum opus in? As a journalist and author myself, I am appalled that Ziff Davis will perpetrate such a thing. Gess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Gess Shankar pax vobiscum gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com Earth Channel Communications, LLC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 15:21:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA09136 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.21.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id PAA09120 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:15:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec12.earthchannel.com (unverified [205.160.21.75]) by ec3.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 18:14:15 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 18:03:39 -0500 Subject: Can we approach att.net admins? Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Many of the forged subscriptions appear to come dial-access.att.net. Since the header contains the IP and possibly port address in the name, the time and such, surely att.net gods can locate who the subscriber is. Perhaps a collective action will produce a response and even action? I have had some smtp host hijacking by people using anon mailers via UU.Net and ATT.Net and I got zero response from them despite documenting the use of our smtp server with logs etc from their ports. (I caught on to it after nearly 300,000 UCE had been delivered to AOL and Compuserve subscribers from my site. I killed another 200,000 in queue and have since built a filter to throw these out. Smaller ISPs were more response in locating the culprits and closing their accounts). As it began, now I am getting about one of these subscriptions every 5 minutes or so, starting about 5 p m est. May be a major offensive planned for the weekend? Gess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Gess Shankar pax vobiscum gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com Earth Channel Communications, LLC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 15:35:41 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA07174 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:01:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.21.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id PAA07155 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:01:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec12.earthchannel.com (unverified [205.160.21.75]) by ec3.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:59:49 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, Bonnie Scott Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:49:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Forged subscriptions resume Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com CC: majordomo-owner@listserv.prodigy.com In-reply-to: <199703271500.KAA30520@prawn.fishy.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 27 Mar 97 at 10:00, Bonnie Scott wrote: > My morning is similar: > newnet-list-request@eskimo.com > majordomo@beyondirc.net > were subscribed to all lists, AND your victims also made an > appearance: > > It looks like they are gearing up for an info-bombing attack, but it > hasn't started yet. Has anyone contacted the victims to make sure > it was an attack? > And more and more names are turning up. These are from smtp.gte.net (but apparently originating from dial-access.att.net like most of them are). From: firewall@labcenter.cl.pusan.ac.kr From: lachico@aol.com From: juseok@white.xtel.com From: ljsuk@hyundai.hdec.co.kr I tried to contact a couple who were being repeatedly subscribed, but got mailbox full/quota exceeded type of bounces. So obviously the perpetrators are succeeding in their attack. Gess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Gess Shankar pax vobiscum gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com Earth Channel Communications, LLC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 15:51:50 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA13425 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id PAA13378; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:46:53 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@honor.greatcircle.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19970327210651.26588.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:48:21 -0800 To: "D. J. Bernstein" , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent Chapman Subject: Re: list protection Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:06 PM +0000 3/27/97, D. J. Bernstein wrote: >Destroying the reliability of Internet mail won't stop spammers. > >Need a particular spelling in the From line? No problem; they'll copy >the spelling. Need a complete header? No problem; they'll copy someone's >complete header. Doing some Received tests? No problem; they'll send >mail through one of the >100000 SMTP servers that don't record sources. >Doing ``administrativia'' tests? No problem; they'll filter the same >words that you do. > >A year later you find yourself surrounded by half-assed ``security'' >mechanisms that make life difficult for normal users (``sorry, folks, >can't send mail to the list unless you want anyone to be able to destroy >your subscription'') while the unsolicited commercial e-mail continues >to pour in. > >I've set up a mailing list to discuss attacks against mailing lists and >mailing list subscribers, and to discuss methods of protecting against >attacks. To join, send a message to > > djb-list-protection-subscribe@koobera.math.uic.edu > >Unlike the list-abuse mailing list, list-protection is open, with >archives available to anyone who wants to see them. We need security >mechanisms that _don't_ rely on Chapman-style obscurity. The administrivia filters that you tripped over have been in Majordomo since well before spam started to become a problem on the net; they are intended primarily to deal with naive users sending requests to the list posting address. You'd be amazed at how much of that our administrivia filters catch. Sure, they could be better. It would be nice if they caught _all_ the administrivia and _only_ the administrivia, but as it stands they're better than nothing; they catch most of the administrivia, and don't catch much that's not administrivia. Accepting posts from subscribers only _has_ been very effective at cutting down the amount of spam sent to List-Managers. I haven't (yet) had a problem with spammers forging email from me; I HAVE had a problem with YOU forging email from me. When you figure out your perfect solution, let us all know; I'm sure we'll all want to take a look at it. In the mean time, we'll just keep making do with what's available today, and we'd appreciate it if you wouldn't go out of your way to make a nuisance of yourself. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Internet/intranet training and consulting, Brent@GreatCircle.COM specializing in network design and security. Great Circle Associates,Inc. Visit us at http://www.greatcircle.com/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 16:07:08 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA15921 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:01:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool.pipex.net (pool.pipex.net [158.43.128.24]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id QAA15888 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25204 invoked from smtpd); 28 Mar 1997 00:00:58 -0000 Received: from pool.pipex.net (HELO pool.uunet.pipex.com) (158.43.128.24) by pool.pipex.net with SMTP; 28 Mar 1997 00:00:58 -0000 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 00:00:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Chuck Foster X-Sender: chuck@pool.uunet.pipex.com To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Can we approach att.net admins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Gess Shankar wrote: > As it began, now I am getting about one of these subscriptions every > 5 minutes or so, starting about 5 p m est. May be a major offensive > planned for the weekend? Yes, I've observed about 50 that have arrived this evening so far, and the few I looked at were from att.net's dialup PoPs. Since the outbreak last weekend I added some filtering in front of the listproc to intercept them and forward them to the list owners instead. Until the tactics change again, of course (sigh) C. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 16:36:47 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA21369 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id QAA21313 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:33:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA04137; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:26:01 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970327072122.0071b590@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 07:22:38 -0800 To: "D. J. Bernstein" From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: list protection Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:06 PM 3/27/97 -0000, D. J. Bernstein wrote: >I've set up a mailing list to discuss attacks against mailing lists and >mailing list subscribers, and to discuss methods of protecting against >attacks. To join, send a message to Oh, the irony. I'm gagging over here on it. >Unlike the list-abuse mailing list, list-protection is open, with >archives available to anyone who wants to see them. We need security >mechanisms that _don't_ rely on Chapman-style obscurity. We also need "list-protection" advice from your like about as much as we need a hole in the head. >---Dan >Let your users manage their own mailing lists. >http://pobox.com/~djb/qmail.html Once more djb proves himself to be the greatest obstacle to qmail's acceptance. Do you ever post to mailing lists without the intention of self-promotion, and without the actual effect of shooting your credibility in the foot each time? If the only way you can think of to announce your private little take-off of list-abuse (grow some originality, maybe?) is to attack list-managers by forging Brent's address, I really, really question your involvement in any mailing list designed to increase protection and security on lists. Let me guess -- you'll promote "greater security" by telling folks how to hack any list not running qmail? You disgust me, sir. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Latest site: http://www.ci.fullerton.ca.us/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 17:06:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA24176 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net (bolero.rahul.net [192.160.13.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id QAA24123 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:57:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA11652 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:57:30 -0800 Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA23784; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:57:28 -0800 Message-Id: <199703280057.AA23784@jive.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: list protection In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970327072122.0071b590@mail.idyllmtn.com> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 16:57:28 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kynn wrote: > At 09:06 PM 3/27/97 -0000, D. J. Bernstein wrote: > >I've set up a mailing list to discuss attacks against mailing lists and > >mailing list subscribers, and to discuss methods of protecting against > >attacks. To join, send a message to > > Oh, the irony. I'm gagging over here on it. :-) Actually, I think that the more lists Dan runs, the better. After he's had 5+ years of running several lists with memberships in the thousands and tens of thousands, his viewpoint may change. Of course, this assumes he cares about S/N ratio of the lists as well as his time. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 18:06:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA28100 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:53:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from request.net (request.net [208.204.14.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id RAA28092 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dell ([204.245.105.129]) by request.net with SMTP id <2019121-2814>; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 20:41:48 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970327205213.007e38a0@klstools.com> X-Sender: ken@klstools.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 20:52:13 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Ken Kyler Subject: Newbie Question In-Reply-To: <199703261050.CAA25756@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings and salutations, As a new list owner, I have been following the discussion of fake sign ups closely. Is there a faq that I can read to get smarter on this? -- Ken Kyler, KLS Tools Inc. Kensington, Maryland, USA (301) 929-0367 [voice] (301) 929-6249 [fax] Pager: (800) 577-7468 PIN 3612469 http://www.KLSTools.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 18:54:24 1997 Received: from koobera.math.uic.edu (koobera.math.uic.edu [128.248.178.247]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id SAA01267 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 18:54:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 28006 invoked by uid 666); 28 Mar 1997 03:01:22 -0000 Date: 28 Mar 1997 03:01:22 -0000 Message-ID: <19970328030122.28005.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> From: "D. J. Bernstein" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: list protection > If the only way you can think of to announce your private > little take-off of list-abuse (grow some originality, maybe?) list-protection predates list-abuse; not that you care about facts. > is to attack list-managers by forging Brent's address, Works better to attack it by sending mail to -outgoing, I think. > Let me guess -- you'll promote "greater security" by > telling folks how to hack any list not running qmail? qmail isn't a mailing list manager. Anyway, yes, I will point out security holes where I see them. Several people in my crypto class were able to break majordomo's cookie system, under time pressure, as an extra-credit problem on the midterm. You're a fool if you think spammers will have trouble doing the same. > You disgust me, sir. You disgust me too. You're attacking the people who point out security problems, rather than working to help fix the problems. ---Dan Let your users manage their own mailing lists. http://pobox.com/~djb/qmail.html From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 21:36:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA10948 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id VAA10941 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:31:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA15661; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:32:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19970328030122.28005.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:23:02 -0800 To: "D. J. Bernstein" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: list protection Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:01 PM -0800 3/27/97, D. J. Bernstein wrote: >> If the only way you can think of to announce your private >> little take-off of list-abuse (grow some originality, maybe?) > >list-protection predates list-abuse; not that you care about facts. Dan, if you're going to start another ego-pissing-match, please give us some warning, so we can unzubscribe and come back when you're done ranting. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 27 21:41:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA10909 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:30:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id VAA10820 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:30:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA08771 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 23:33:17 -0600 Message-Id: <199703280533.XAA08771@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 23:33:17 -0600 (CST) From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Valencia King Nelson said... |In the past 6 months I have had several disruptive/diagreeable | people to complain about being placed on the "ignored" list. |The complaint is that their right to free speech is being violasted |followed up with a threat "to sue". Do you have an intro to the list mailiing that goes to each new user? Does it clearly spell out the rules and regulations, and the actions to be taken when they are violated? Did you follow these? Did you save all documentation (probably just email in these cases)? There are two threats I see as not improbable: 1) They could go ahead and have a lawyer contact you, if only to scare you, and hey - if they get some money, so much the better, but they might get back on the list, right? 2) They might go after the university to (a) try to force you to let them on (or better yet, get you ousted, so that whoever took over (them?) would be most likely to let them have their way), or (b) because they know the university has deep pockets. I don't know how likely these are (I would guess it's a low risk). I do know that taking all the steps I asked about earlier are a big help in fending off even the least probability of a lawsuit. -Miles, not a lwayer, but have had to deal with the same issues in other situations. meo@rru.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 28 06:36:45 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id GAA09127 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 06:26:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id GAA09119 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 06:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 27892 invoked by uid 305); 28 Mar 1997 14:26:38 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu Subject: Re: list protection References: <199703280057.AA23784@jive.rahul.net> Date: 28 Mar 1997 09:26:38 -0500 In-Reply-To: Michelle Dick's message of Thu, 27 Mar 97 16:57:28 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 19 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.37/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk if you expect his viewpoint to change i don't think you understand it. it's often the case that people have a presentation style that puts some folks off. discarding informed insights because you find the package unappealing doesn't serve your self-interest. of course this assumes that you care about making things better as well as your time. >>>>> "artemis" == Michelle Dick writes: artemis> Actually, I think that the more lists Dan runs, the better. artemis> After he's had 5+ years of running several lists with artemis> memberships in the thousands and tens of thousands, his artemis> viewpoint may change. Of course, this assumes he cares about artemis> S/N ratio of the lists as well as his time. -- paul pjg@acsu.Buffalo.EDU |public keys at: | http://urth.acsu.Buffalo.EDU/~pjg/key.html if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 28 07:22:42 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA14976 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 07:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from prawn.fishy.net (flounder.fishy.net [206.156.56.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id HAA14959 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 07:11:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from grayling.fishy.net (grayling.fishy.net [172.16.3.90]) by prawn.fishy.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA14514; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 10:10:36 -0500 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 10:10:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199703281510.KAA14514@prawn.fishy.net> X-Sender: bonnie@pop.fishy.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: Bonnie Scott Subject: Re: Forged subscriptions resume Cc: majordomo-owner@listserv.prodigy.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Good morning... I'm cracking open a Mt. Dew and adding this morning's subscription attacks to my VICTIM list: geo@free.polbox.pl dziubek@mvax.pwr.wroc.pl janko1@free.polbox.pl My, how worldly and sophisticated these mail bombers must be. Why, just last week all their victims were from New Zealand: trigger@ihug.co.nz l&swilson@xtra.co.nz iorns@tawacol.school.nz shore@tawacol.school.nz nshore@tawacol.school.nz alastair.cunningham@welcom.gen.nz The tawacol addresses are repeat subscription attacks at our site. Have a great day! Bonnie Scott Prodigy Services Corp. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 28 08:37:05 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA18647 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 08:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from prawn.fishy.net (flounder.fishy.net [206.156.56.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id IAA18589 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 08:21:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from grayling.fishy.net (grayling.fishy.net [172.16.3.90]) by prawn.fishy.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA25946; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:20:57 -0500 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:20:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199703281620.LAA25946@prawn.fishy.net> X-Sender: bonnie@pop.fishy.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Ken Kyler , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Bonnie Scott Subject: Re: Newbie Question Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:52 PM 3/27/97 -0500, Ken Kyler wrote: >Greetings and salutations, > >As a new list owner, I have been following the discussion of fake sign ups >closely. Is there a faq that I can read to get smarter on this? Try these to start out with: Panix explains: headers, how to complain, and a little procmail help
A Spam FAQ: how to read the headers and do the research, what to do next
Just the URLS: http://www.panix.com/e-spam.html http://digital.net/~gandalf/spamfaq.html Then, take a look at http://spam.abuse.net/spam/rogues.html http://spam.abuse.net/spam/ Bonnie Scott Prodigy Services Corp. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 28 10:07:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id JAA06752 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:59:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailer.syr.edu (mailer.syr.edu [128.230.20.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id JAA06586 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from spider.syr.edu by mailer.syr.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.B5ECE700@mailer.syr.edu>; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:58:20 -0500 Received: from spider.syr.edu (jmwobus@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spider.syr.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA28682; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:58:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703281758.MAA28682@spider.syr.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: jmwobus@MailBox.Syr.Edu Subject: Parsing "Received" lines, tracking down contacts Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:58:09 -0500 From: "John M. Wobus" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone written a script to speed up the process of scanning a posting's received lines to find the nodes closest to the origin and using whois etc. to track down contacts for the nodes? -John Wobus From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 28 11:21:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA14491 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id LAA14465 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:14:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from greatkhan.netmeg.net (greatkhan.netmeg.net [208.139.83.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-970308-2) with SMTP id LAA15397 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:15:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by greatkhan.netmeg.net (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0wAh6P-0001UqC; Fri, 28 Mar 97 14:14 EST Message-Id: Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 14:14 EST From: matt@netmeg.net (Matt Magri) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Newbie Question In-Reply-To: <199703281620.LAA25946@prawn.fishy.net> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bonnie Scott wrote: >Ken Kyler wrote: >>As a new list owner, I have been following the discussion of fake sign ups >>closely. Is there a faq that I can read to get smarter on this? > >Just the URLS: >http://www.panix.com/e-spam.html >http://digital.net/~gandalf/spamfaq.html > >Then, take a look at >http://spam.abuse.net/spam/rogues.html >http://spam.abuse.net/spam/ I'd also add http://kryten.eng.monash.edu.au/gspam.html to the list. As far as FAQs go, there's an FAQ archive here which has the main net abuse FAQs all in one place at http://www.netmeg.net/faq/internet/net-abuse/ . Hope that helps, Matt From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 28 11:36:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA13790 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:07:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id LAA13781 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:07:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from greatkhan.netmeg.net (greatkhan.netmeg.net [208.139.83.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-970308-2) with SMTP id LAA15341 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:08:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by greatkhan.netmeg.net (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0wAgtr-0001UqC; Fri, 28 Mar 97 14:01 EST Message-Id: Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 14:01 EST From: matt@netmeg.net (Matt Magri) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: list protection In-Reply-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michelle Dick wrote: > Actually, I think that the more lists Dan runs, the better. After > he's had 5+ years of running several lists with memberships in the > thousands and tens of thousands, his viewpoint may change. Of course, > this assumes he cares about S/N ratio of the lists as well as his > time. pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu wrote: > if you expect his viewpoint to change i don't think you understand it. > it's often the case that people have a presentation style that puts some > folks off. discarding informed insights because you find the package > unappealing doesn't serve your self-interest. of course this assumes that > you care about making things better as well as your time. The problem with this formulation is that it ignores the nature of the relationship between someone who has a package they would like people to use, and the people he would like to have use it. It's all well and good to put the blame on Michelle Dick, but she's not the one trying to get a message across. When the message doesn't make it that's as much a problem for the sender as the receiver, regardless of who's 'to blame.' If you think Dan Bernstein has "a presentation style that puts some folks off" then maybe you should be sending him e-mail with some suggestions on how to avoid such pitfalls. Michelle, Chuq, etc. are giving him very valuable feedback on his delivery. Don't shoot the messenger. Matt From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 28 11:51:47 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA18194 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:45:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from greatkhan.netmeg.net (greatkhan.netmeg.net [208.139.83.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id LAA18158 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:45:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by greatkhan.netmeg.net (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0wAhaK-0001UqC; Fri, 28 Mar 97 14:45 EST Message-Id: Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 14:45 EST From: matt@netmeg.net (Matt Magri) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Parsing "Received" lines, tracking down contacts In-Reply-To: <199703281758.MAA28682@spider.syr.edu> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk John M. Wobus (jmwobus@MailBox.Syr.Edu wrote: > Has anyone written a script to speed up the process of scanning a > posting's received lines to find the nodes closest to the origin and > using whois etc. to track down contacts for the nodes? You could check http://abuse.net/tools.html to see if there's anything you can use there. I'm assuming that you know that any of the Received:'s below yours could be faked, etc., etc. BTW, http://abuse.net/ also provides an easy way to submit you complaint to various network providers. Matt From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 28 12:36:42 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA24987 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:28:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id MAA24904 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA00391; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 14:27:34 -0600 (CST) To: "John M. Wobus" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Parsing "Received" lines, tracking down contacts References: <199703281758.MAA28682@spider.syr.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 28 Mar 1997 14:27:34 -0600 In-Reply-To: "John M. Wobus"'s message of Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:58:09 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.26/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "JMW" == John M Wobus writes: JMW> Has anyone written a script to speed up the process of scanning a JMW> posting's received lines to find the nodes closest to the origin and JMW> using whois etc. to track down contacts for the nodes? Should be easy to do, until they get smart enough to add a few fake ones before they send the message. Hopefully those fake ones don't point back to your site. - J< From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 28 12:51:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA27699 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:48:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [206.246.190.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id MAA27687 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:47:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703282047.MAA27687@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: (qmail 25547 invoked from network); 28 Mar 1997 20:47:43 -0000 Received: from ind-0013-5.iquest.net (HELO astinson) (206.246.171.229) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 28 Mar 1997 20:47:43 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:49:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Digest size problem Reply-to: amys@iquest.net In-reply-to: References: <19970327210651.26588.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have run a Smartlist list for over a year with varying degrees of success, but have started getting messages such as these recently. The digest is multi-part and it seems that AOL, Compuserve, and now Sprynet has trouble with the "size" of the digest. The only problem have with this scenerio is that the maximum size of one of my digests is 26k, hardly large enough to cause a mail server to choke, but here's what the "technician" told one of my users: The subscriber wrote me: Had some mail problems this morning. In the course of conversation, the tech person who checked my mailbox at my request, said that the Digest messages were about at the length that would cause the system to have trouble with them (one was 26K). I don't know enough about mailing lists to know whether this information might be useful for you. The technicians'c comment was that "there are ways to make the transmissions smaller, or they could be zipped". I went from a 10000 line digest, to a 25k digest in order to get around the over 25k limit AOL had on mail messages (would turn them into attachments which people didn't know how to deal with) and now it's suggested I zip 25k digests? It takes me 10 seconds on a slow download to get my digests (connected at 24000 or slower). Any comments or suggestions? Amy Amy Stinson Mailto:amys@iquest.net Http://www.iquest.net/~amys From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 28 14:51:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA15280 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 14:47:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from magpie.com (magpie.com [206.138.212.31]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id OAA15172 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 14:45:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ripley (ripley.magpie.com [192.0.1.2]) by magpie.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA31336 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:44:32 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970328174016.00924d80@192.0.1.6> X-Sender: manes@192.0.1.6 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:40:21 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Steve Manes Subject: Vetting postings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Valencia King Nelson: >In the past 6 months I have had several disruptive/diagreeable >people to complain about being placed on the "ignored" list. >The complaint is that their right to free speech is being violasted >followed up with a threat "to sue". I'm going through that with a twit on one of my lists. Rather than stick him in the 'ignored' list, I patched the 'resend' program to bounce certain users' posts to me for approval so I can manually repost the acceptable ones back to the list (through a sendmail alias on the server which points to a small Perl script that strips off my header and stuffs the original message at the tail of the appropriate digest queue. This way, I can let some posts through and ignore the obnoxious ones. -----------------------[ http://www.magpie.com ]-----------=o&>o--------- Steve Manes | Int'l Bass Players | for info, email manes@magpie.com | NYC Motorcyclists | server@magpie.com with 94 Harley-Davidson FLHR | Triumph MC Owners | the message text, "lists" 95 Triumph Super III | Motorcycle Safety | 97 Triumph T595 | | N'Yawk, N'Yawk From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 28 15:21:54 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA16061 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 14:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id OAA16026; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 14:57:45 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@honor.greatcircle.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19970328030122.28005.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 14:59:27 -0800 To: "D. J. Bernstein" , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent Chapman Subject: Re: list protection Cc: edz@UIC.EDU (Zone/Tech/Admin contact for UIC.EDU domain) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:01 AM +0000 3/28/97, D. J. Bernstein wrote: >> If the only way you can think of to announce your private >> little take-off of list-abuse (grow some originality, maybe?) > >list-protection predates list-abuse; not that you care about facts. > >> is to attack list-managers by forging Brent's address, > >Works better to attack it by sending mail to -outgoing, I think. > >> Let me guess -- you'll promote "greater security" by >> telling folks how to hack any list not running qmail? > >qmail isn't a mailing list manager. > >Anyway, yes, I will point out security holes where I see them. > >Several people in my crypto class were able to break majordomo's cookie >system, under time pressure, as an extra-credit problem on the midterm. >You're a fool if you think spammers will have trouble doing the same. > >> You disgust me, sir. > >You disgust me too. You're attacking the people who point out security >problems, rather than working to help fix the problems. > >---Dan >Let your users manage their own mailing lists. >http://pobox.com/~djb/qmail.html Mr. Bernstein, this is your last warning. If you are going to persist in making a nuisance of yourself on the GreatCircle.COM mailing lists (by forging email, by bypassing the proper posting method and sending directly to the -outgoing address, and so forth), you are going to be removed from those lists and barred from further access to this site. We will _not_ be terrorized by you into "fixing" supposed "problems" here, when the only one exploiting those problems is YOU. You claim to worry about unsolicited commercial email destroying the community of mailing lists. Well, let me tell you, you're doing a hell of a job of that yourself right now. We don't _need_ you to demonstrate the problems. We know that there are problems. You want to discuss the problems, fine. You want to propose solutions, fine. But right now, you're causing me and my subscribers more trouble than all the spammers! You are NOT being part of the solution right now, you're being a major part of the problem. If you can't get your act together, then go somewhere else. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Internet/intranet training and consulting, Brent@GreatCircle.COM specializing in network design and security. Great Circle Associates,Inc. Visit us at http://www.greatcircle.com/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 28 15:25:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA15733 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 14:54:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix4.panix.com (panix4.panix.com [198.7.0.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id OAA15676 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 14:53:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [38.26.19.193] (ip152.an16-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.27.152]) by panix4.panix.com (8.8.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) with ESMTP id RAA26337 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:53:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199703272131.NAA05113@shellx.best.com> References: (klarsen@panix.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:51:42 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Kent S. Larsen II" Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Cyndi, I think you and I are talking about separate things. I'm talking on a purely theoretical level. You seem to be talking about your own experience. Both of these views are equally valid - and your view is probably more valid for those of us currently running lists. But, I'm still worried about this (possibly phantom) risk that we may face if we end up defending in court how we run our lists. Having said that, let me address some of your points: At 1:31 PM -0800 on 3/27/97, Cyndi Norman wrote: > From: "Kent S. Larsen II" > > I agree with Alan's comment that in the case presented yesterday, the > listowner may be at risk because the list is hosted on a state universi= ty > machine. In this case, are you the listowner, or is the university, or = is > the state? > > I doubt it. I ran my list for 6 years on a computer at the University of > Calif at San Diego. There was never once any implication that I had to > comply with any rules particular to UCSD or the state of Calif. And my > list talks a lot about lawsuits and government abuse. I dont believe we > ever talked about UC, but we certainly could have. (I have since moved th= e > list to a private ISP at the request of UCSD since I am no longer a grad > student there.) I think the only thing they cared about was bandwidth. Like many list managers, you have been fortunate. I must not have made my point carefully enough, however. I'm not talking about what has happened in practice. I am talking about what might happen were issues like this taken to a court. Its certainly possible that a court might say that an email discussion list funded by a University is a public forum, and therefore any participant can't be censored. > > And how is running a list at UCSD different from, say, my department's > newsletter (paid for by state funds)? It has an editor and items are > considered for inclusion based on topicality, length, content, etc. Even > as a member of that dept, I could not get whatever I wanted printed. Give= n > the nature of the newsletter, pretty much anything anyone wanted to write > would indeed get printed, but the editor always had the last word. It depends on what kind of a list it is! If it is an unmoderated *discussion* list then its a very different animal. In an unmoderated discussion list you have chosen not to exercise any editorial control (or at least very little) - a fact that your subscribers may depend on. > > Many state-funded universities publish literary or academic journals. The= y > have the right to reject anything submitted to them. If your list is an edited journal in stead of a discussion list, then you have the same right, IMO, as they do (although I still wouldn't be surprised to see it end up in court - or the court rule against you and against the way I think). > > Another question might be does the ISP or the state or the university, etc > etc, have any say over what must go through the list or what can't go > through the list? This is completely different from the original question > of rights of subscribers. I agree, it is a different question, but I think it is one that can be solved more easily - just read the terms of the contract you have with your ISP that concern running mailing lists >If UCSD did take an interest in the content of > my list, they probably would threaten to shut it down if I didnt comply > (and they could). But they would be doing this for reasons internal to > them, not because of potential liability if I refuse to allow certain > posts. Why do you say that? Are you saying the University will act this way regardless of potential liability, or are you saying that the potential liability doesn't exist? Please understand, I am not claiming that I know that the potential liability exists, I am saying it seems likely to me, but that I don't know, and I don't have any evidence that anyone knows. Does anyone know of relevant legal opinions that would give us an indication of where we stand? One of my reasons for persuing this subject is to try and get exactly this - some kind of proactive (i.e., without going to court) resolution as to the legal status of the listowner. Perhaps this will be the basis for some law that will make this clear. Perhaps the result will be a document that can help the judge that eventually does get this case (I can almost guarantee this will happen eventually!). > > Generally, the subscribers don't actually pay money for the right to jo= in, > but they are contributing to the list (perhaps this is a form of paymen= t? > They are giving the listowner stuff to publish - and magazines and > newspapers often have to pay for material to publish). > > You obviously havent tried to sell something youve written :-). Perhaps you didn't notice my sig :-). I work for North-South Books. We publish children's books. In my career I've also worked at a newspaper and spent a bit of effort studying the industry. While its true that I haven't tried to sell something I've written, I do know a little about the process. :-) > Most > magazines and newspapers do not pay their contributers. Only the ones > turning a profit do...and not all of them (granted, their circulation is > far higher than all the others put together). Most places pay in copies o= f > the issue the submission appears in. Also, people do not get paid for > publishing in scientific or academic journals (as far as I know). I'm curious about why you seem to concentrate on scientific & academic journals. Are they a more appropriate comparison for some reason that I can't see? I don't think they compare very well to unmoderated discussion groups - but I do think they would compare well to a *distribution* list. > Besides, > I am not getting anything from my list, beyond personal satisfaction. My > subscribers are not providing me with a service or payment beyond the > support and information any other subscriber recieves. Nor do I get > payments from elsewhere (such as advertisers). What if all your subscribers stopped sending posts to your list? My point was that this might be construed by a court as a service, and possibly even as payment, if the court interpreted it that way. I'm certainly not saying that a court will do it, just that such an interpretation is concievable IMO. > > I have no obligation to my subscribers, other than those I choose to take > on (and moral or ethical ones). I get no money at all for running this > list and webpage; in fact it costs me $10/month. Obviously, I get a lot > out of this, or I wouldn't do it, but it's not anything tangible. Just because you don't get anything tangible from the list, doesn't mean that you don't have an obligation to your subscribers. And again, I don't know that you do. But I don't know that you don't. > > So perhaps there is a kind of implied contract between the listowner an= d > the list members. Your list rules are some of the terms of this contrac= t. > The contract also has implied rules - one of which may be the right of = the > list member to post to the list. > > Nope, sorry, no way. I don't even have an obligation to keep someone on > the list. I have terminated people for violating my rules. How do you know that a court will agree with you? [snip] > > Cyndi > > -- Thanks for responding Cyndi. I hope that you are right. But for me, I'd like to know where I stand with a little more certainty. Or I'd like to make it clear somehow. Kent Kent S. "Kip" Larsen II; KLarsen@panix.com or KLarsen@NorthSouth.com (work). From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 28 16:08:54 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA19576 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:41:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.64.111]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id PAA19569 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:41:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703282341.PAA19569@honor.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 18:41:24 EST Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Please understand, I am not claiming that I know that the potential > liability exists, I am saying it seems likely to me, but that I don't know, > and I don't have any evidence that anyone knows. > > Does anyone know of relevant legal opinions that would give us an > indication of where we stand? Check out , lessons 40-65 on Free Speech Law. 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Yours virtually, Alan Lewine Cyberspace-Law Listmeister Alan_R_Lewine@SSRN.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Mar 29 10:52:27 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA08349 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 29 Mar 1997 10:46:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.azstarnet.com (mailhost.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id KAA08342 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 1997 10:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from p166 (usr15ip11.azstarnet.com [169.197.16.11]) by mailhost.azstarnet.com (8.8.3-p/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA11733 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 1997 11:46:38 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199703291846.LAA11733@mailhost.azstarnet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Bob & Lauren" Organization: http://www.humvee.com To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 11:45:40 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: New member In-reply-to: <199703290900.BAA16080@honor.greatcircle.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've recently joined the digest version of this list and thought I'd post a little info. I run the Hummer Mailing List with well over 500 subscribers. My ISP, azstarnet.com, changed from Majordomo to SmartList a couple of months ago. There were a lot of problems with SmartList, mostly because Starnet would not spend the time necessary to tweak it to work well and refused to give listowners access to their rc.custom files. I finally moved the list to another site to run it under Majordomo 1.94. I'm learning from this list that there's a lot I still don't know, so I'll be mostly lurking for a while. Thanks for all the useful info. ...Bob http://www.humvee.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Mar 29 11:36:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA10691 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 29 Mar 1997 11:35:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net (bolero.rahul.net [192.160.13.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id LAA10684 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 1997 11:35:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA17577 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 29 Mar 1997 11:35:10 -0800 Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA04316; Sat, 29 Mar 1997 11:35:07 -0800 Message-Id: <199703291935.AA04316@jive.rahul.net> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, artemis@rahul.net Subject: Re: list protection In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 29 Mar 97 11:35:06 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk paul wrote: > if you expect his viewpoint to change i don't think you understand it. > it's often the case that people have a presentation style that puts some > folks off. discarding informed insights because you find the package > unappealing doesn't serve your self-interest. Well, wrt to mailing list packages, Dan hasn't pointed out anything here we don't already know. So no new insights were presented on this list by him. And he has belittled several features that after years of use with thousand-member mailing lists, others have found have made their lists more noise-free, their subscribers happier, and has reduced the time needed to spend managing the list. It's the difference between what works in theory and what works in practice. > of course this assumes that > you care about making things better as well as your time. As it happens, I *don't* use majordomo because I personally find it deficient in several ways. I use a self-hacked version of Smartlist and made it do what needed done. Many of them solutions I would have sneered at in my starry-eyed beginning list-admin days. It was experience that taught me otherwise. And my ego likes to think I'm a pretty good list admin and that's why my extremely narrow topic list (very low fat vegetarian food and cooking) has thousands of subscribers, why they send me donations to support the list, and why when Newsweek asked its readers to tell them about their favorite lists, mine was one of the two they highlighted. (and maybe why my no-graphics, bare-bones text and search engine website based on the list is starting to get requests to advertise on it -- yes for pay). Yes, some of my list features make it harder for members to do certain things. And you know what? It's totally absolutely 100% intentional. I *want* certain things to be hard for my subscribers. Spam isn't the only problem and experienced list admins know that. Those of us who run large lists tend to be intimately familiar with the list packages we use and know most of its weaknesses and strengths *and* whether IN PRACTICE those weaknesses are a problem. If Dan wants us to listen he first has to realize that we are probably already aware of the problem (they are not new insights to us) and that we are dripping with hard won experience: many of us started out by running our lists manually, have used more than one MLM, and have experienced a staggering variety of list abuses. For example, my mailing list address was spam-baited on usenet (as well as several of my addresses, probably because the previous week someone forged one of my addresses into the From: line of a UBE and they assumed I was the spammer) and none of the resulting spam flood made it onto the list. BTW, one of the majordomo "features" I *don't* have is an -outgoing address. And one feature I do have that majordomo doesn't (correct me if I am wrong) is the ability to send multiple seperate info files to new members (in seperate emails). Both of these are part of the reason I use Smartlist instead of majordomo. Does my personal version of Smartlist have problems/deficiences. You betcha! Am I gonna fix them all? No, I will fix them as they become problems or threat to become problems in practice. And I'm working on one right now. > >>>>> "artemis" == Michelle Dick writes: > > artemis> Actually, I think that the more lists Dan runs, the better. > artemis> After he's had 5+ years of running several lists with > artemis> memberships in the thousands and tens of thousands, his > artemis> viewpoint may change. Of course, this assumes he cares about > artemis> S/N ratio of the lists as well as his time. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 31 07:36:54 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA27448 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 07:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from webster.m-w.com ([206.98.43.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id HAA27422 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 07:35:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by m-w.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.0) id AA25727; Mon, 31 Mar 97 10:27:08 EST Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 10:27:08 EST From: awest@webster.m-w.com (Amy West) Message-Id: <9703311527.AA25727@m-w.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: TAN: how to handle a spammer Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I apologize for a slightly inappropriate forum, but I figure alot of people who are listmanagers are also postmasters. I just received this morning an *11-page* unsolicited email that was sent out to everyone this spammer could find with the same last name soliciting participation in a *barely* legal, probably still illegal pyramid scheme, and encouraging people to use email to further this scheme. FYI, this mail was from "rstone@utah-inter.net." I've complained to the postmaster for the domain; printed off copies to send to Attorneys General of the pertinent states. Is there anything else I can/should do to make this person cease & desist, or to discourage others from doing this in the future? And not only to me, but to anyone else on my system? ---Amy West Postmaster Merriam-Webster Inc.