From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jun 2 15:15:19 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA24887 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id PAA24858 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2b1); Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:11:34 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:11:22 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, listmom-talk@skyweyr.com From: Vince Sabio Subject: A Question of Propriety Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I need some input here ... I have a home page for SmartBounce that lists, among other things, the MLM platforms that SmartBounce supports. The text is pretty straightforward, and doesn't try to imply endorsement by any of the developers. Right from the Web page: SmartBounce currently runs on Macintosh, Unix, and Windows platforms, and supports the following list servers: ListProc, LISTSERV, Majordomo, Macjordomo, NTmail, ListSTAR, AutoShare, and LetterRip, plus manually- managed lists. I decided a while back that I should hot link each MLM name to its developer's Web site. Still, in my [admittedly small] mind, pretty basic stuff for Web pages. Problem was, I couldn't track down URLs for either NTmail or AutoShare. I had no idea whom to contact about NTmail -- but since Mikael Hansen (AutoShare) had previously contacted me about the possibility of providing SmartBounce as a CodeWarrior library for AutoShare, so I knew whom to contact for that platform. I've attached both my message and Mikael's response; in short, Mikael is suggesting (if I am understanding his statement correctly) that the presence of the supported-platforms text on the SmartBounce Web page amounts to spam. Well, I'm not sure that I'd classify it as *spam*, per se, but it *does* raise the issue of acceptability of the text. So, my questions (and these are not all mutually exclusive options): 1. Is there a problem with the text as shown? That is, would you read it as implying some sort of endorsement from the developers? If so, then ... 2. Would it be better to include a statement to the effect of "Stated support of any particular platform does not imply endorsement by the developer of that platform"? 3. Should I perhaps change "supports" to "works with", so it doesn't sound as if it is being developed in concert with any of the MLM developers? (Well, actually, it *is* being developed cooperatively with several of them, but that wouldn't argue *against* changing the wording.) 4. Do I need to add in a blurb about which names are trademarked and who owns what trademarks? (I see this sorta thing a lot, but it seemed to be overkill for a Web page.) 5. Would it be a good idea to remove the hot links? (It's really not a big deal -- and, to be honest, I'd rather people continue browsing down my page than zipping off to an MLM site, anyway. I just figured it'd be kinda convenient to have the server names hot linked.) 6. (I'd prefer to avoid this one, if possible ...) Does anyone see it as such a substantial issue that it'd be best if I just removed the server support info from the Web page altogether? Personally, I really can't see that it is appreciably different from saying that SmartBounce "currently runs on Macintosh, Unix, and Windows platforms" -- and I doubt that anyone would take issue with that. (Well, sure, it's not likely that Apple, Microsoft, or AT&T would really care about my stinking little Web page, but still ...) Since (from what I can gather) most of the developers in question are on these lists, I'd certainly like to hear from them. Similarly, though, I would also like to get feedback/suggestions from non-developers, as well. I'm kinda thrown by the suggestion that there might be some impropriety in stating something as simple as what servers are currently supported by SmartBounce -- but I am also litigationally-challenged, and wouldn't be surprised if there really *was* some kind of problem with having that information on there, or with my choice of wording, etc. All feedback appreciated. Thanks ... - Vince Sabio Developer, list(s) owner ... and web-page spammer? I don't *think* so ... P.S. -- Several of you have pointed out to me that mail to my Colossus address has been bouncing. I *think* that the problem has been fixed with the new EIMS beta (installed today), but I can't guarantee anything. --- begin forwarded text Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:21:15 -0400 To: Mikael Hansen From: Orion Software Subject: AutoShare Home Page? Hi Mikael, I'm updating my SmartBounce web site, and adding links to the home pages of the various list servers that SmartBounce supports. AutoShare, of course, is one of them, and I'd like to hot link it to your web page -- but I can't find it. Could you please send me the URL? Thanks! _____________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Home of "SmartBounce," the world's first Orion Software, Ltd. automated bounce handler for mailing lists. orionsoft@telephonet.com FMI: --- end forwarded text --- begin forwarded text Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:05:23 -0700 To: Orion Software From: Mikael Hansen Subject: Re: AutoShare Home Page? At 18:21 -0400 5/31/97, Vince Sabio of Orion Software wrote: >I'm updating my SmartBounce web site, and adding links to the home pages >of the various list servers that SmartBounce supports. AutoShare, of >course, is one of them, Sorry, I wasn't aware of that. Portraying this assumption as public knowledge on your web page is unsolicited and as such constitutes, well, spam... >and I'd like to hot link it to your web page -- but I can't find it. Two versions have been released this year, and the URL has both times been included in the mails sent to the standard announcement lists. -- Mikael Hansen --- end forwarded text From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jun 2 16:15:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA05313 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web1.valley-internet.com (web1.valley-internet.com [204.212.245.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id QAA05258 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from win95-desktop-1 (trt-on19-37.netcom.ca [207.181.87.101]) by web1.valley-internet.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA17453 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706022314.QAA17453@web1.valley-internet.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:48:46 -0600 From: "Douglas J. Archell" Subject: re: A Question of Propriety To: Doug Archell Organization: NetCent X-Mailer: GoldMine95 [3.20.70422] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Response to Vince Sabio's message on June 2, 1997: Vince, first, FWIW this is a perfect example of the issues we discussed through our private chats -- how some try to classify "spam". Using the quoted text from your page: " SmartBounce currently runs on Macintosh, Unix, and Windows platforms, and supports the following list servers: ListProc, LISTSERV, Majordomo, Macjordomo, NTmail, ListSTAR, AutoShare, and LetterRip, plus manually- managed lists." >>1. Is there a problem with the text as shown? That is, would you read it as implying some sort of endorsement from the developers?<< No, there is nothing wrong with the text as shown. There is *nothing* in your post the signifies any type of endorsement from the developers. The text states that SmartBounce -- your product -- supports X,Y,Z. >>3. Should I perhaps change "supports" to "works with", so it doesn't sound as if it is being developed in concert with any of the MLM developers? (Well, actually, it *is* being developed cooperatively with several of them, but that wouldn't argue *against* changing the wording.)<< The text, as shown, does not imply any collabrative effort. Be it software or hardware, claims from vendors like this are rather mainstream. By just saying that your product supports another doesn't imply anything regarding the other vendors policy and/or views of your product. If that's the case, then companies like Microsoft, Novell, IBM, Intel, etc etc, are essentially working with almost every single developer on the planet. And all those small vendors out there ... little did they know that they were working side-by-side with the big kids on the block. >>5. Would it be a good idea to remove the hot links? (It's really not a big deal -- and, to be honest, I'd rather people continue browsing down my page than zipping off to an MLM site, anyway. I just figured it'd be kinda convenient to have the server names hot linked.)<< Why? Is the entire web not built on the premise of linking? Unless you are pulling THEIR content INTO your site, there is no copyright issue involved. There is no need to remove your links. >>6. (I'd prefer to avoid this one, if possible ...) Does anyone see it as such a substantial issue that it'd be best if I just removed the server support info from the Web page altogether?<< Absolutely not. Someone buying your product will more than likely want to know what your product supports. >>Personally, I really can't see that it is appreciably different from saying that SmartBounce "currently runs on Macintosh, Unix, and Windows platforms" -- and I doubt that anyone would take issue with that. (Well, sure, it's not likely that Apple, Microsoft, or AT&T would really care about my stinking little Web page, but still ...)<< There is NO difference here, Vince. >>I'm updating my SmartBounce web site, and adding links to the home pages of the various list servers that SmartBounce supports. AutoShare, of course, is one of them, and I'd like to hot link it to your web page -- but I can't find it.<< Nothing wrong with this request. >>From: Mikael Hansen Sorry, I wasn't aware of that. Portraying this assumption as public knowledge on your web page is unsolicited and as such constitutes, well, spam...<< Ridiculous. Putting a link on your site to another site and/or page on the net is NOT "spam" as per the common definition. If we are to assume that any unsolicited link on one web page to another is SPAM, then probably 95% of the entire web community are spammers and should stop complaining about unsolicited email as they are now guilty of unsolicited web page links. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jun 2 16:30:20 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA06962 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web.net (web.net [192.139.37.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id QAA06907 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.53.5.137](really [198.53.5.137]) by web.net via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:27:25 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1 built 1996-Oct-8) X-Sender: grant@pop1.achilles.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:26:36 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Grant Neufeld Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:11 PM -0400 1997/6/2, Vince Sabio wrote: >would also like to get feedback/suggestions from non-developers, as well. >I'm kinda thrown by the suggestion that there might be some impropriety >in stating something as simple as what servers are currently supported by >SmartBounce ... >>I'm updating my SmartBounce web site, and adding links to the home pages >>of the various list servers that SmartBounce supports. AutoShare, of >>course, is one of them, I don't see any problem with saying it this way. You are saying that your product supports users of the various list servers. You are not saying anything about those products other than the fact that your product adds value to them. I'm not a lawyer, but... I can't understand how that could possibly be bad unless you list non-public (trade-secret) information about someone else's product (such as the name of a product that isn't yet public) in the context of the above statement. -- grant@achilles.net grant@kagi.com http://arpp.carleton.ca/ O- <*> "Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat" -- John Lehman (Secretary of the US Navy 1981-1987) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jun 2 17:00:22 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA10691 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from private.lists.apple.com (private.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.152]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id QAA10646 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by private.lists.apple.com (8.6.10/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id QAA21160 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:55:37 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199706022314.QAA17453@web1.valley-internet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:53:07 -0700 To: From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: re: A Question of Propriety Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:48 PM -0700 6/2/97, Douglas J. Archell wrote: >how some try to classify "spam". Sheesh. So spam is now "anything I don't like". Just as censorship is "making me follow rules I don't like" on lists. Nothing but an attempt to use a word that people react to and wedging it to be relevant to your situation. A great way to devalue the word so people tune it out (frankly, don't most of us tune out censorship screams now at first glance?). >knowledge on your web page is unsolicited and as such constitutes, well, >spam...<< > >Ridiculous. Bottom line: it's ridiculous. And if you spend all of your time trying to make 100% of the world happy 100% of the time, you'll never accomplish anything useful again, and go crazy in the meantime... I wouldn't waste my energy on requests like this..... -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jun 2 21:30:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA06226 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id VAA06217 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway.tssi.com [198.147.197.29]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA28129 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:30:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA00874 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:30:07 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA13979 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:30:01 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199706030430.XAA13979@celery.tssi.com> Subject: re: A Question of Propriety To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:30:01 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Sheesh. So spam is now "anything I don't like". > > Just as censorship is "making me follow rules I don't like" on lists. To paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart, I'm not sure I can define spam, but I know it when I see it. I always wonder if folks who carry on about censorship on mailing lists have ever attempted to place a 'help wanted' ad in the 'apartments for rent' section of the classified ads in their local newspaper. Not only is that Censorship, it's Restraint of Trade! :-) -- Mike Nolan From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jun 2 22:00:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA07246 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web1.valley-internet.com (web1.valley-internet.com [204.212.245.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id VAA07231 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from win95-desktop-1 (trt-on1-38.netcom.ca [207.181.81.102]) by web1.valley-internet.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA02325 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706030450.VAA02325@web1.valley-internet.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:22:00 -0600 From: "Douglas J. Archell" Subject: re[2]: A Question of Propriety To: Doug Archell Organization: NetCent X-Mailer: GoldMine95 [3.20.70422] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >>Nothing but an attempt to use a word that people react to and wedging it to be relevant to your situation. A great way to devalue the word so people tune it out (frankly, don't most of us tune out censorship screams now at first glance?).<< Exactly. The term "spam" is almost as bad as "paradigm shift" From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 3 07:52:58 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA27437 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 07:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grinch.whoville.leftbank.com (grinch.leftbank.com [139.167.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id HAA27418 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 07:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zax.whoville.leftbank.com by grinch.whoville.leftbank.com via smtpd (for honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) with SMTP; 3 Jun 1997 14:34:47 UT Received: (from nmehl@localhost) by zax.leftbank.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/LeftBank-1.1/http://www.leftbank.com/) id KAA12722; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:32:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan J. Mehl" Message-Id: <199706031432.KAA12722@zax.leftbank.com> Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety To: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:32:31 -0400 (EDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, listmom-talk@skyweyr.com In-Reply-To: from "Vince Sabio" at Jun 2, 97 06:11:22 pm X-Abby-Says: Nathan, you keep getting to be the first person who does things to me X-My-Minions: Took over Lunacon...and Minbar. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Your complaniant is out of his friggin mind. Saying "my utility can be used with product X" on a web page is not spam. Period. It is neither unsolicited nor an advertisment -- it is a simple, relevant and necessary statement of your product's capabilities. If this bozo doesn't care for what amounts to a free plug, just yank it from your page and wash your hands of the matter. It's his loss. -n -- Don't blame me -- I voted for the Unabomber! Nathan J. Mehl -- The Left Bank Operation (work) nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com (play) memory@blank.org -- http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nmehl/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 3 08:45:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA03573 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix4.panix.com (panix4.panix.com [198.7.0.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id IAA03495 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [38.217.47.2] ([38.217.47.2]) by panix4.panix.com (8.8.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) with ESMTP id LAA04326 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199706030800.BAA23838@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:05:15 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Kent S. Larsen II" Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:00 AM -0700 on 6/3/97, "Douglas J. Archell" wrot= e: > At 6:11 PM -0400 1997/6/2, Vince Sabio wrote: > >>5. Would it be a good idea to remove the hot links? (It's really not a > big deal -- and, to be honest, I'd rather people continue browsing down > my page than zipping off to an MLM site, anyway. I just figured it'd > be kinda convenient to have the server names hot linked.)<< > > Why? Is the entire web not built on the premise of linking? Unless you ar= e > pulling THEIR content INTO your site, there is no copyright issue involved= =2E > There is no need to remove your links. > While IANAL, I think this is not legally clear. I've read recently about a dispute between Microsoft and Sidewalks over MS's link to Sidewalks (I think I have this right, but I'm not completely sure). Regardless of the legality of it, however, my feeling is that if he doesn't want a link from your site to his, don't put it in - it will only inconvenience him, not you. (or you could put some kind of note on your site saying that he didn't want you to link to him). He's not being very wise about this, but why not give him what he wants? BTW, IMO you don't need to change anything else. Kent Kent S. "Kip" Larsen II; KLarsen@panix.com or KLarsen@NorthSouth.com (work). Pass the SPAM ban! Ask your Congressperson to support CAUCE http://www.cauce.org From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 3 09:45:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id JAA13902 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [207.107.138.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id JAA13883 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from win95-desktop-1 (trt-on7-44.netcom.ca [207.181.82.172]) by hub.org (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id MAA26547 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199706031644.MAA26547@hub.org> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Douglas J. Archell" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:44:07 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety Reply-to: darchell@netcent.com In-reply-to: References: <199706030800.BAA23838@honor.greatcircle.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From the press releases I read on this one a little while back, it was a little more than just a link or two on the site though .... a large portion of MS's site tied into the other. > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:05:15 -0500 > To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM > From: "Kent S. Larsen II" > Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety > > Why? Is the entire web not built on the premise of linking? Unless you are > > pulling THEIR content INTO your site, there is no copyright issue involved. > > There is no need to remove your links. > > > > While IANAL, I think this is not legally clear. I've read recently about a > dispute between Microsoft and Sidewalks over MS's link to Sidewalks (I > think I have this right, but I'm not completely sure). > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 3 11:30:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA26272 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id LAA26245 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA23692 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:30:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 185.houston-002.tx.dial-access.att.net(207.147.97.185) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma021128; Tue Jun 3 13:24:00 1997 Message-ID: <3367AA2D.1A38@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:23:09 -0700 From: Alan Czarnek X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-compaq (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety References: <199706030800.BAA23838@honor.greatcircle.com> <199706031644.MAA26547@hub.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk y > > > > Why? Is the entire web not built on the premise of linking? Unless you are > > > pulling THEIR content INTO your site, there is no copyright issue involved. > > > There is no need to remove your links. > > > > > > > While IANAL, I think this is not legally clear. I've read recently about a > > dispute between Microsoft and Sidewalks over MS's link to Sidewalks (I > > think I have this right, but I'm not completely sure). > >------ There is also a news site that has a frame with their advertising and then another frame that has the CNN news site (and other news sites as well) Apparently all this site does is repackage someone else's copyrighted news pages within their advertising frames. From what I read, CNN and the other news outlets are NOT amused. Although, IANAL, it's easy to see why they are unhappy. So although the web is built on the premise of linking, there are ways to overdo any concept, I guess. AlanCz From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 3 12:15:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA29448 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id MAA29361 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2b1); Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:19:57 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199706030450.VAA02325@web1.valley-internet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:17:28 -0400 To: From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 00:22 -0400 6/3/97, Douglas J. Archell sent everyone: >Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > >>>Nothing but an attempt to use a word that people react to and wedging >it to be relevant to your situation. A great way to devalue the word so >people tune it out (frankly, don't most of us tune out censorship >screams now at first glance?).<< > >Exactly. The term "spam" is almost as bad as "paradigm shift" Hey! I work for the government; we couldn't produce *half* the paperwork we that we do if we didn't have catch phrases like "paradigm shift" at our disposal. (Hmmm ... now that I put it *that* way, I think I'm starting to see your point.) Seriously, I'd like to thank everyone for all the feedback, both public and private. It has been overwhelmingly in support of the text as it stands -- though I think I will nevertheless change "supports" to "works with," just avoid what might appear to be a collaborative effort. The response on this issue has certainly resulted in a parad^H^H^H^H^H strong change of opinion at this end. Thanks again. - Vince (Who is currently preparing for a move to the private sector, and is thus practicing his avoidance of catch phrases ... ;-) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 3 13:15:50 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id NAA05889 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net ([208.139.83.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id NAA05879 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from greatkhan.netmeg.net (greatkhan.netmeg.net [208.139.83.2]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA18377 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:04:14 -0400 Received: by greatkhan.netmeg.net (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0wYzod-0001VZC; Tue, 3 Jun 97 16:04 EDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 97 16:04 EDT From: matt@netmeg.net (Matt Magri) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety In-Reply-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Vince Sabio wrote: > SmartBounce currently runs on Macintosh, Unix, and Windows platforms, > and supports the following list servers: ListProc, LISTSERV, Majordomo, > Macjordomo, NTmail, ListSTAR, AutoShare, and LetterRip, plus manually- > managed lists. [ ... ] >3. Should I perhaps change "supports" to "works with", so it doesn't >sound as if it is being developed in concert with any of the MLM >developers? (Well, actually, it *is* being developed cooperatively with >several of them, but that wouldn't argue *against* changing the wording.) If that wording makes you feel better, then by all means change it. You could also reword the whole thing. Something along the lines of... : SmartBounce currently runs on Macintosh, Unix, and Windows platforms, : and supports a wide range of list server software. SmartBounce has : been used with ListProc, LISTSERV, Majordomo, Macjordomo, NTmail, : ListSTAR, AutoShare, and LetterRip, plus manually-managed lists. That seems to sidestep the whole question, IMHO. >Mikael Hansen wrote: >>Vince Sabio of Orion Software wrote: >>>I'm updating my SmartBounce web site, and adding links to the home pages >>>of the various list servers that SmartBounce supports. AutoShare, of >>>course, is one of them, >> >> Sorry, I wasn't aware of that. Portraying this assumption as public >> knowledge on your web page is unsolicited and as such constitutes, well, >> spam... It's depressing to see someone so ignorant of what spam actually is. I would never have guessed that there was anyone who thought it meant an `unsolicited portrayal of an assumption as public knowledge' or whatever it is he's claiming. What is he saying? That he wasn't aware that AutoShare was supported by SmartBounce? Why did he contact you about it earlier then? Or is he saying that you're wrong and that SmartBounce -doesn't- work with AutoShare? Weird. >>>and I'd like to hot link it to your web page -- but I can't find it. >> >> Two versions have been released this year, and the URL has both times been >> included in the mails sent to the standard announcement lists. Weird, again. Don't add a link for his product, I guess. It would blow that whole low-profile thing he's trying to achieve with AutoShare, I guess. :-P Matt From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 3 16:30:51 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA01650 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id QAA01625 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2b1); Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:34:57 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:34:42 -0400 To: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: RE: A Question of Propriety Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 17:44 -0400 6/3/97, Avi Rappoport sent everyone: >OTOH, I don't think you should quote people's private email on public mailing >lists without their permission. Paraphrasing is fine, asking questions based >on the message is fine, but full quoting seems to be too invasive. In many ways, I agree -- but excerpting runs the risk of complaints (often well founded) of "My comments were taken out of context." I've had it happen to me, and it has bothered me deeply. I really very much (is that strong enough?) prefer when people quote the relevant portion(s) of my comments in their entirety, whenever possible. Thus, I felt it was safer to quote in full than to excerpt. (Take another look at the reply and ask yourself what part of that would *not* have simply left people confused (okay, *more* confused) if presented by itself ...) The other option would be to paraphrase -- but, to be honest, Mikael's message left me so confused about what, exactly, he was getting at (and several others, apparently, judging by the different interpretations of it) that I did not feel competent to try to paraphrase it. Apologies if any toes have been stepped on, however ... - Vince Sabio wavelet@colossus.arl.mil [Note: Some deep-seated psychological problems in my mail server are currently coming to the fore, and the server is routinely trying to commit suicide. Counseling is helping, but the new hard drive that's on order will help a lot more. In the meantime, getting mail to me at this address will be a crapshoot at best. Apologies for server timeouts and message requeues until things are repaired. ] From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 3 18:30:14 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA18156 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 18:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id SAA18141 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 18:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2b1); Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:31:58 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199706030800.BAA23838@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:31:20 -0400 To: "Kent S. Larsen II" , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 12:05 -0400 6/3/97, Kent S. Larsen II sent everyone: >Regardless of the legality of it, however, my feeling is that if he doesn't >want a link from your site to his, don't put it in - it will only >inconvenience him, not you. (or you could put some kind of note on your >site saying that he didn't want you to link to him). I don't feel that a note is necessary -- but I agree 100%, if he doesn't want a link, I certainly won't force one on him. My question, though, was more along the lines of creating an appearance of developer endorsement by including the "supports" text and links on the Web page (which I guess has been pretty well resolved by now -- but since my mail server has been acting up, I get the feeling that I have received this message somewhat out of order from the rest; apologies if so). - Vince Sabio wavelet@colossus.arl.mil [Note: Some deep-seated psychological problems in my mail server are currently coming to the fore, and the server is routinely trying to commit suicide. Counseling is helping, but the new hard drive that's on order will help a lot more. In the meantime, getting mail to me at this address will be a crapshoot at best. Apologies for server timeouts and message requeues until things are repaired. ] From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 3 19:15:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA24813 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frutiger.staffs.ac.uk (frutiger.staffs.ac.uk [194.66.172.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id TAA24759 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.232.29.252] (195.232.2.91) by frutiger.staffs.ac.uk with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.1.2); Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:12:33 +0100 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro for Macintosh Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:11:33 +0100 To: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: james@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk (James Berriman) Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety (or a question of assumptions?) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 23:11 2/6/97, Vince Sabio wrote: >I need some input here ... Perhaps I can be of some assistance? You wrote: >Subject: AutoShare Home Page? > >Hi Mikael, > >I'm updating my SmartBounce web site, and adding links to the home pages >of the various list servers that SmartBounce supports. AutoShare, of >course, is one of them, and I'd like to hot link it to your web page -- >but I can't find it. > >Could you please send me the URL? Thanks! Well, here we go straight to the crux of the problem! You say "...the various list servers that SmartBounce supports. AutoShare, of course, is one of them...". Let us call this 'the assumption in question'. Vince, I guess it's just possible that your request could have been, well, misconstrued... Perhaps I can help to reword that message for maximum impact :-) === Subject: A Recipe for Disaster. Hi Mikael, I don't have a recent version of AutoShare to hand, so naturally it follows that *I don't know where the website is. [Oops. Details of the website location and a copy of the web documentation are both distributed with the application] *I'm telling all visitors to my site that my software supports AutoShare (any old version will do - I haven't read the latest documentation, but I'm sure you haven't changed anything since 1.0, right?). [I wonder. Did you know that the current release (AutoShare 1.3) includes a simple built-in bounce handling module?] Oh, and in conclusion... *I'd love to link to your web site. That way, when people get stuck they can come to you for advice (what's that URL again?). === Obviously, that's not quite the impression you were trying to convey :-) But Mikael could be forgiven for wondering how you can claim to support AutoShare when you don't know where to find the latest documentation. I suggest that this is the assumption with which he was taking issue (and not, as some people appear to believe, the mere existence of a hypertext link to his site). He said "Portraying this assumption", not "this link". Which leads me on to the meaning of a _private_ remark from Mikael. Not a public criticism (although you chose to make it public). >Sorry, I wasn't aware of that. Portraying this assumption as public >knowledge on your web page is unsolicited and as such constitutes, well, >spam... Does anyone detect a note of irony here? That's how I read it. But I'm more used to his email style than most :-) Mikael was evidently pissed off, so he made a comment designed to press all your buttons at once. We all _know_ how hot you are on the subject of spam. IMO, this whole thing could and should have been cleared up in private email. If you didn't understand the message, why not ask the originator for an explanation? ( :-]) James Follow-up: I had a second look at SmartBounce. When SmartBounce first came out, AutoShare didn't support remote admin by email. So the 'SmartBounce Server File' was no direct use. These days, AutoShare supports list passwords and remote email admin. But the format of that 'SmartBounce Server File' is now just plain wrong (it wouldn't take much to fix, for those who do wish to forgo AutoShare's built-in bounce handling). Which leads me to wonder: who has tested SmartBounce with AutoShare? As things currently stand, I don't believe that SmartBounce directly supports AutoShare. "Portraying this assumption as public knowledge" would therefore be misleading. I believe that was the substance of Mikael's objection. You assume that it works, but don't appear to have taken a serious look at AutoShare compatibility. Does that clear things up? From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 3 20:00:17 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA27054 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vms2.isc.rit.edu (vms2.isc.rit.edu [129.21.3.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id TAA27047 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:54:26 -0700 (PDT) From: ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Received: from ritvax.isc.rit.edu by ritvax.isc.rit.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #21575) id <01IJNI3668VK95NZN4@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:58:07 EDT Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 22:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sites that host lists? In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 04 Jun 1997 03:11:33 +0100" To: james@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk Cc: ListMom-Talk Discussion List , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Message-id: <01IJNIIBEEHU95NZN4@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I was asked by someone in Brazil if there are sites in the States that host mailing lists ... free or for payment ... does somebody know of any such sites? thanks, Andrew Davidhazy, andpph@rit.edu - for PhotoForum on the Internet From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 3 20:05:17 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA27072 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id TAA27065 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2b1); Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:03:11 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:02:56 -0400 To: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety (or a question of assumptions?) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 22:11 -0400 6/3/97, James Berriman sent everyone: >I had a second look at SmartBounce. When SmartBounce first came out, >AutoShare didn't support remote admin by email. So the 'SmartBounce Server >File' was no direct use. These days, AutoShare supports list passwords and >remote email admin. But the format of that 'SmartBounce Server File' is now >just plain wrong (it wouldn't take much to fix, for those who do wish to >forgo AutoShare's built-in bounce handling). Hmmm ... news to me. However, since you mention that it wouldn't take much to fix, would you mind telling me what needs to be changed, so I can update it? >Which leads me to wonder: who has tested SmartBounce with AutoShare? I have two AutoShare beta testers; I do rely on feedback from my beta testers for information regarding compatibility/problems. I will have to follow up with them on this. (I haven't heard any complaints ... (?)) (There are simply too many platforms for me to check directly myself. I run lists on ListProc, LISTSERV, and Macj servers; the rest are provided by beta testers, though a couple were provided by non-beta users.) >As things currently stand, I don't believe that SmartBounce directly >supports AutoShare. "Portraying this assumption as public knowledge" would >therefore be misleading. Agreed, if that's the case. It seems odd that I'd have heard no complaints; a follow-up with the beta testers is certainly in order. Nevertheless, I'd still appreciate the feedback on what needs to be changed >I believe that was the substance of Mikael's objection. You assume that it >works, but don't appear to have taken a serious look at AutoShare >compatibility. I've taken the most detailed look at compatibility that is practical in this situation. If something has changed, it is possible that the beta testers did not upgrade yet. >Does that clear things up? Well, yes and no. ;-) - Vince Sabio wavelet@colossus.arl.mil [Note: Some deep-seated psychological problems in my mail server are currently coming to the fore, and the server is routinely trying to commit suicide. Counseling is helping, but the new hard drive that's on order will help a lot more. In the meantime, getting mail to me at this address will be a crapshoot at best. Apologies for server timeouts and message requeues until things are repaired. ] From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 3 20:30:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA29257 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 20:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id UAA29221 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 20:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from greatkhan.netmeg.net (greatkhan.netmeg.net [208.139.83.2]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA06012 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:26:43 -0400 Received: by greatkhan.netmeg.net (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0wZ6ip-0001VZC; Tue, 3 Jun 97 23:26 EDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 97 23:26 EDT From: matt@netmeg.net (Matt Magri) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety (or a question of assumptions?) In-Reply-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk james@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk (James Berriman) wrote: > Vince Sabio wrote: > >I need some input here ... > > Perhaps I can be of some assistance? You wrote: An interesting post. My gut reaction to it was much along the lines of the one I have to mysteries that pull out a long-lost uncle at the last minute that totally changes the whodunit mix... ;-) > Vince, I guess it's just possible that your request could have been, well, > misconstrued... [ ... ] > IMO, this whole thing could and should have been cleared up in private > email. If you didn't understand the message, why not ask the originator for > an explanation? Two points. One, I hope you've likewise chided Mikael since this was obviously -not- the course he had followed. In fact, it was his odd reply (which required a rather extensive post by someone with personal experience with his writing style to decipher) which led to this not being "cleared up" after the first exchange. Second, perhaps Vince didn't feel, based on the reply he'd gotten, that the originator was interested in making himself clear. Matt From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 3 20:45:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA29591 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 20:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.wco.com (shell.wco.com [199.4.94.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id UAA29581 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 20:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from default (volans73.wco.com [207.48.88.73]) by shell.wco.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/WCO-2jun97) with SMTP id UAA20525; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 20:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970603203409.010f8da0@mail.wco.com> X-Sender: 2bits@mail.wco.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 20:34:09 -0700 To: ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu From: "Todd O." <2bits@wco.com> Subject: Re: Sites that host lists? Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <01IJNIIBEEHU95NZN4@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> References: <"Your message dated Wed, 04 Jun 1997 03:11:33 +0100" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:56 PM 6/3/97 -0400, ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu wrote: >I was asked by someone in Brazil if there are sites in the States that host >mailing lists ... free or for payment ... does somebody know of any such sites? I just found LOF Communications (http://www.lofcom.com) and I am thinking about starting a couple of lists with them. The price seems right: $10 set-up, $5 per month thereafter. -- Todd Ourston <2bits@wco.com> Marin County, California From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 3 21:00:33 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA00597 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 20:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from infostreet.com ([207.240.104.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id UAA00571 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 20:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shiraz.infostreet.com ([207.240.105.12]) by infostreet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA00330; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 20:58:29 -0700 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 20:47:15 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC705F.51EB2420@siamak@infostreet.com> From: Siamak Farah To: "'ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu'" , "james@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk" Cc: ListMom-Talk Discussion List , "List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: RE: Sites that host lists? Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 20:47:14 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4025 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Yes. We at InfoStreet do so. We charge $1 per day. If your contact is interested, ask them to email sales@infostreet.com Siamak Farah siamak@infostreet.com Please note our new address and Phone number: -------------------------------------------------------------------- InfoStreet, Inc. 18345 Venture Blvd, Suite 416 Tarzana, CA 91356-4243 818-776-8080-Tel 818-776-2999-Fax http://www.infostreet.com http://www.instantweb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tuesday, June 03, 1997 7:57 PM, ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu [SMTP:ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu] wrote: > I was asked by someone in Brazil if there are sites in the States that host > mailing lists ... free or for payment ... does somebody know of any such sites? > > thanks, > > > Andrew Davidhazy, andpph@rit.edu - for PhotoForum on the Internet From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 3 21:30:14 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA01691 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id VAA01682 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (ip231.pom.primenet.com [204.212.52.231]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA21936; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:14:00 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970603211345.00747ff0@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 21:14:57 -0700 To: ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Sites that host lists? Cc: james@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk, ListMom-Talk Discussion List , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:56 PM 6/3/97 -0400, ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu wrote: >I was asked by someone in Brazil if there are sites in the States that host >mailing lists ... free or for payment ... does somebody know of any such sites? There's lots, yeah. Check with Yahoo, maybe -- or consider that a lot of ISPs will do it for subscribers. --Kynn, runs MLists.com, which sells list services, free if you just want a tiny "niche" list -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Vice President, HTML Writers Guild From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 3 23:00:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA06875 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from public.zz.hy.cn (public.zz.hy.cn [202.102.224.111]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id WAA06866 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from li (ppp47.zz.hy.cn [202.102.225.47]) by public.zz.hy.cn (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id NAA07087 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:53:15 +0900 Message-ID: <31B27E5B.39F7@public.zz.hy.cn> Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 13:55:39 +0800 From: "lixei@public.zz.hy.cn" Reply-To: lixei@public.zz.hy.cn Organization: lixei@public.zz.hy.ycn X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Where have mailllist about oracle? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk thanks a lot! From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jun 4 00:00:25 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA09098 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rzaixsrv2.rrz.uni-hamburg.de (rzaixsrv2.rrz.uni-hamburg.de [134.100.33.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id XAA09091 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from max-135.public.uni-hamburg.de by rzaixsrv2.rrz.uni-hamburg.de (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA34404; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:52:09 +0200 Received: by RRZ.uni-hamburg.de (CrossPoint v3.11 R/A12435); 04 Jun 1997 08:50:15 +0200 Date: 03 Jun 1997 21:51:00 +0200 From: fe3a002@rrz.uni-hamburg.de (Andreas Koerber) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-Id: <6YBVcetah0B@rrz.rrz.uni-hamburg.de> In-Reply-To: <6YBVbYdLh0B@rrz.rrz.uni-hamburg.de> Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety X-Mailer: XP v3.11 R/A12435 via uka_ppp 1.54 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: privat Reply-To: akoerber@rrz.uni-hamburg.de Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kent larsen wrote: KSLI> > Why? Is the entire web not built on the premise of linking? KSLI> > Unless you are pulling THEIR content INTO your site, there is KSLI> > no copyright issue involved. There is no need to remove your KSLI> > links. KSLI> > KSLI> While IANAL, I think this is not legally clear. I've read KSLI> recently about a dispute between Microsoft and Sidewalks over KSLI> MS's link to Sidewalks (I think I have this right, but I'm not KSLI> completely sure). This seems to be a problem which stems from the technique not providing means to show in the link whether it goes to a foreig site (outside) or to another place in your own hierarchy. This makes it easy to achieve the appearance that those contents you link to were your own - especially when frames come in. I don't think linking is violation of copyright, but one shloud consider making it clear in the linking text that this is an outside resoucre which is being linked to, maybe by expressly stating their name. Then they should rather be pleased than angry. Yours -- MfG public pgp-key via e-mail: Andreas Koerber set subject "SEND PGPKEY" http://www.koerber.org/~andreas From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jun 4 02:46:03 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id CAA21393 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 02:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frutiger.staffs.ac.uk (frutiger.staffs.ac.uk [194.66.172.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id CAA21314 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 02:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.66.172.10] by frutiger.staffs.ac.uk with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.1.2); Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:32:58 +0100 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:32:58 +0100 To: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: james@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk (James Berriman) Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety (or a question of assumptions?) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 04:02 4/6/97, Vince Sabio wrote: >Hmmm ... news to me. However, since you mention that it wouldn't take >much to fix, would you mind telling me what needs to be changed, so I >can update it? Sure. No problem :-) I'll follow up in private mail. ( :-]) James From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jun 4 03:15:18 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id DAA26494 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.ripco.com (relay.ripco.com [198.4.164.95]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id DAA26477 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 8457 invoked from network); 4 Jun 1997 10:13:47 -0000 Received: from morph.ripco.com (HELO ripco.ripco.com) (i23105@207.78.110.16) by relay.ripco.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1997 10:13:47 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970604051129.00717aa8@pop.ripco.com> X-Sender: spunge@pop.ripco.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 05:11:29 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Benji Spencer Subject: RE: Sites that host lists? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk yeah, I know eldar.org does. I have several of them there. if there is an interest, check out http://anduin.eldar.org/eldar_info.html, or contact me. I can give you more info benji ------------------Benji Spencer---------------------- spunge@ripco.com http://www.ripco.com/~spunge ben@anduin.eldar.org http://anduin.eldar.org/~ben thespunge@juno.com spunge@usa.net thespunge@hotmail.com IRC Nick: Spunge ----------------------------------------------------- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jun 4 04:15:27 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id EAA00695 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 04:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id EAA00665 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 04:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id HAA12042 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA24164 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:08:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:08:40 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: RE: Sites that host lists? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970604051129.00717aa8@pop.ripco.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A gent named Brian Edmonds maintains a list of mailing list service providers. Some of these providers do not charge. Some charge very modest fees. - http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/usenet/ml-providers.txt - send email to majordomo@edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca with the following line in the body of the message: get faq ml-providers.txt - murr - From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jun 4 05:15:14 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id FAA06794 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 05:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id FAA06755 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 05:01:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Alanamil@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA21348 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970604080533_354338886@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Sites that host lists? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Another great site that hosts list is esosoft. they are half the cost of everyone else...and their customer service is great! They are on majordomo systems and the people are great to work with!! Contact Michael@esosoft.com if you want information. I have 2 list through them and several friends have theirs also and we are all very happy. Alana From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jun 4 07:16:17 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id GAA11760 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 06:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nntp.cs.ubc.ca (nntp.cs.ubc.ca [142.103.6.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id GAA11632 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 06:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs.ubc.ca (uucp@news.cs.ubc.ca [142.103.6.2]) by nntp.cs.ubc.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA12873 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 06:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cs.ubc.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) id GAA22499 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 06:27:03 -0700 (PDT) >Received: from mornir.gweep.bc.ca by edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca (Sendmail 8.7.5) with ESMTP id GAA17709; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 06:20:33 -0700 Received: from cs.ubc.ca by nnrp.cs.ubc.ca; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 06:27 PDT Received: from mornir.gweep.bc.ca by edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca (Sendmail 8.7.5) with ESMTP id GAA17709; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 06:20:33 -0700 Received: (from edmonds@localhost) by mornir.gweep.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA03033; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 06:20:22 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Sites that host lists? X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.29 #1 Wed Mar 19 20:11:02 PST 1997 X-Geek: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/doc/geek.html X-Homepage: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds X-PGP-Ox6E86B769: This key is obsolete, please discard it. X-PGP-Ox979D0B09: A9 3E 1E CB 86 09 B1 E9 3C 1A 0E F6 49 F9 5D 99 Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) From: edmonds@cs.ubc.ca (Brian Edmonds) Date: 04 Jun 1997 06:20:21 -0700 In-Reply-To: ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu's message of Tue, 03 Jun 1997 22:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37raeih5d6.fsf@mornir.gweep.bc.ca> Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.52/XEmacs 20.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ANDPPH writes: > I was asked by someone in Brazil if there are sites in the States that > host mailing lists ... free or for payment ... does somebody know of > any such sites? Visit for a list of sites. This is posted monthly to comp.mail.misc and one of the list-admin groups. Brian. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jun 5 13:24:55 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA14179 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id MAA14162 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elmo.gleim.com (elmo-gatew.gleim.com [207.30.143.122]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id FAA26421 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 05:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grover.gleim.com (grover.gleim.com [207.30.143.13]) by elmo.gleim.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA05358 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:59:10 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970602090529.007576bc@gleim.com> X-Sender: mam@gleim.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 09:05:29 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Mark Moore Subject: mailer prog died with signal 13 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I keep getting "mailer prog died with signal 13", then "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo" errors in sendmail. i just installed majordomo-www gateway scripts, but they are not being used yet. can anyone help me? -------------- Mark Moore mark@gleim.com Gleim Publications, Inc. http://www.gleim.com (352) 375-0772 (800) 87-GLEIM FAX: (352) 375-6940 --------------- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jun 5 15:02:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA15915 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id MAA14553 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.213.24]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id QAA09396 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brian@localhost) by ilinx.ilinx.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA08477 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:42:05 -0700 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199706022342.QAA08477@ilinx.ilinx.com> Subject: AOL bouncing to the From: address? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:42:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Phone: '1 604 983 UNIX' Organization: 'InterLinx Support Services, Inc.' Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just saw some bounce mail form AOL to the "From:" address!! It seems that whenever I see one of these it's because the "return-path" "MAIL FROM" is "<>". Are even AOL not getting this right? b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jun 5 15:08:33 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA29869 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atheria.europa.com (atheria.europa.com [199.2.194.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id OAA29841 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thetics.europa.com(really [199.2.194.14]) by atheria.europa.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:21:08 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #4 built 1997-Jan-19) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:21:07 -0700 (PDT) From: kali To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: question Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've looked up and down the owners faq and elsewhere and can't seem to find the answer to my question (this probably shouldn't be directed to this list...but....) When someone sends a message to a list and it bounces for some trivial reason and I want to "approve" and resend it to the list (so that it looks as if it's been posted by them) can I do this? and how? bouncing it back to the list doesn't really work because then it is posted by owner-list.... any help would be much appreciated! -kali ********************************************** kali@europa.com List/Web Mistress for the Dandy Warhols http://www.dandywarhols.com Dandy's Rule! "....too many idiot's...not enough comets...." *********************************************** From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jun 5 15:15:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA15018 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id MAA14996 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id SAA20425 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.8.5/8.8.5/lokkur-1.1-scs) id VAA09149; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:03:04 -0400 (EDT) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety Date: 2 Jun 1997 21:03:03 -0400 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 16 Distribution: local Message-ID: <5mvqg7$8tq@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Vince Sabio writes: >I've attached both my message and Mikael's response; in short, Mikael is >suggesting (if I am understanding his statement correctly) that the >presence of the supported-platforms text on the SmartBounce Web page >amounts to spam. Right, and my link to Dilbert on my home page spams Scott Adams. Your text is fine, his attitude and thought processes are not. Go ahead with your links. -- ``... went to see a sneak preview of `The Lost World.' I was going to dwell on all that was wrong with this movie, but decided instead to focus on what was good about it instead. Here goes: It finally ended, and this proved to me that God exists and it is a good and merciful God.'' -Colin Lamb From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jun 5 15:16:18 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA15959 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id MAA15948 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from starnine.com (starnine.com [198.211.93.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id OAA15572 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qdmail.starnine.com (qdmail.starnine.com [198.211.93.74]) by starnine.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA18611; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: 3 Jun 1997 14:44:16 -0700 From: "Avi Rappoport" Subject: RE: A Question of Propriety To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" , listmom-talk@skyweyr.com X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.0.0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Vince, I think it's great that you have a link to ListSTAR on your site, and feel no need for you to change your wording or request anything from me whatsoever. Others may feel differently. I also have no trouble with your little blurbs in the ListMom mailng list about SmartBounce -- I think it's a fine product and a good answer for the perennial question. OTOH, I don't think you should quote people's private email on public mailing lists without their permission. Paraphrasing is fine, asking questions based on the message is fine, but full quoting seems to be too invasive. Avi _____________________________________________________ Avi Rappoport Product Manager, StarNine Technologies (510) 649-4949 From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jun 5 15:28:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id NAA16133 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id NAA16075 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Zeus.GateKey.Com (Zeus.GateKey.Com [209.49.116.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id VAA02278 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (thomasm@localhost) by Zeus.GateKey.Com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA23841; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:32:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:32:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Mullaney To: ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu cc: james@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk, ListMom-Talk Discussion List , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Sites that host lists? In-Reply-To: <01IJNIIBEEHU95NZN4@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We host lists, what type of list do you want to run? Please send my the following info, so I can give you a cost if any: 1) Type of list? 2) Number of subscribers expected? 3) Average number of posts per day? 4) Digest needed? 5) Archiving needed? 6) Administrator needed? 7) Open or Closed list? --Thomas Mullaney --President/CEO - GateKey Solutions, Incorporated ~~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~ The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion. This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of my employer, GateKey Solutions, Incorporated All responsibility for the statements made in this message resides solely and completely with the sender. ~~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~ On Tue, 3 Jun 1997 ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu wrote: > I was asked by someone in Brazil if there are sites in the States that host > mailing lists .... free or for payment ... does somebody know of any such sites? > > thanks, > > > Andrew Davidhazy, andpph@rit.edu - for PhotoForum on the Internet > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jun 5 15:31:33 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA15701 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id MAA15689 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NrgUp.Com (garbo.nrgup.com [198.70.37.233]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id GAA21702 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 8483 invoked by uid 501); 3 Jun 1997 08:29:24 -0500 Message-ID: <19970603082924.14471@NrgUp.Com> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:29:24 -0500 From: Jonathan Bradshaw To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: AOL problems? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.75 X-Mailer-Info: http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/ X-Operating-System: Linux Garbo 2.0.30 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, yesterday was obviously a bad day for AOL... I wonder how today will be. I think I got every possible error message they could throw out, from multiple mail servers. Btw, my nameservers are working fine, so the errors below about not finding me in the DNS table may also be a problem on their end. All other 4,500 deliveries during that time to other hosts were fine. 2 12.43 Connected to 198.81.19.159 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 cannot lockf(/aol/sendmail/lib/aliases.db, fd=6, type=1, omode=37777777777, euid=0): No locks available/ 1 11.39 Connected to 198.81.19.159 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 cannot lockf(qfLAA25750, fd=6, type=6, omode=37777777777, euid=0): No locks available/ 1 9.25 Connected to 198.81.19.160 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 cannot lockf(/aol/sendmail/lib/aliases.db, fd=6, type=1, omode=37777777777, euid=0): No locks available/ 1 2.79 Connected to 198.81.19.155 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 queuename: Cannot create "qfNAA16045" in "/aol/mqueues/mqueue" (euid=0): File table overflow/ 6 832.93 Connected to 198.81.11.78 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 /aol/sendmail/bin/dnc: cannot fork: Not enough space/ 2 198.22 Connected to 198.81.11.78 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 SMTP-MAIL: cannot fork: Not enough space/ 4 498.61 Connected to 198.81.11.78 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 db map lookup: get (AIP-request@NrgUp.Com): Not enough space/ 4 539.46 Connected to 198.81.11.100 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 /aol/sendmail/bin/dnc: cannot fork: Not enough space/ 2 174.19 Connected to 198.81.11.55 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 SMTP-MAIL: cannot fork: Not enough space/ 21 2853.10 Connected to 198.81.11.55 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 /aol/sendmail/bin/dnc: cannot fork: Not enough space/ 3 839.81 Connected to 198.81.11.107 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 ... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./ 26 31264.30 Connected to 198.81.11.14 but greeting failed./ 1 194.37 Connected to 198.81.11.16 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 ... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./ 1 128.51 Connected to 198.81.11.16 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 /aol/sendmail/bin/dnc: cannot fork: Not enough space/ 2 2414.43 Connected to 198.81.11.17 but greeting failed./ 2 501.25 Connected to 198.81.11.17 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 ... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./ 13 15685.60 Connected to 198.81.11.20 but greeting failed./ 1 214.82 Connected to 198.81.11.29 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 ... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./ 6 7234.48 Connected to 198.81.11.50 but greeting failed./ 8 9830.16 Connected to 198.81.11.51 but greeting failed./ 3 3616.86 Connected to 198.81.11.52 but greeting failed./ 4 4866.74 Connected to 198.81.11.53 but greeting failed./ 13 2748.44 Connected to 198.81.11.55 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 ... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./ 1 200.85 Connected to 198.81.11.55 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 ... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./ 1 200.60 Connected to 198.81.11.55 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 ... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./ 1 200.84 Connected to 198.81.11.55 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 ... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./ 5 6018.06 Connected to 198.81.11.56 but greeting failed./ 1 201.50 Connected to 198.81.11.64 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 ... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./ 1 191.61 Connected to 198.81.11.72 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 ... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./ 1 215.89 Connected to 198.81.11.72 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 ... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./ 6 7269.07 Connected to 198.81.11.73 but greeting failed./ 6 7251.60 Connected to 198.81.11.74 but greeting failed./ 8 9742.39 Connected to 198.81.11.75 but greeting failed./ 1 214.24 Connected to 198.81.11.78 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 ... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./ 2 2411.34 Connected to 198.81.19.149 but greeting failed./ 10 12061.45 Connected to 198.81.19.150 but greeting failed./ 2 2405.49 Connected to 198.81.19.151 but greeting failed./ 15 18113.84 Connected to 198.81.19.152 but greeting failed./ 19 22911.25 Connected to 198.81.19.154 but greeting failed./ 1 425.74 Connected to 198.81.19.155 but connection died. Possible duplicate!/ 10 12056.05 Connected to 198.81.19.155 but greeting failed./ 4 4859.39 Connected to 198.81.19.157 but greeting failed./ 9 10861.55 Connected to 198.81.19.159 but greeting failed./ 7 8437.46 Connected to 198.81.19.161 but greeting failed./ 9 10835.97 Connected to 198.81.19.163 but greeting failed./ 3 3619.08 Connected to 198.81.19.166 but greeting failed./ 21 25346.62 Connected to 198.81.19.168 but greeting failed./ 8 9659.76 Connected to 198.81.19.169 but greeting failed./ 11 13211.03 Connected to 198.81.19.171 but greeting failed./ 5 6018.58 Connected to 198.81.19.172 but greeting failed./ 8 9628.21 Connected to 198.81.19.176 but greeting failed./ 4 4835.24 Connected to 198.81.19.177 but greeting failed./ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jun 5 16:30:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA17253 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.21.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id QAA17205 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ec12.earthchannel.com (unverified [205.160.21.75]) by ec3.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Thu, 05 Jun 1997 19:21:33 -0400 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 19:16:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com In-reply-to: <5mvqg7$8tq@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2 Jun 97 at 21:03, Steve Simmons wrote: > Right, and my link to Dilbert on my home page spams Scott Adams. > (Somewhat off-topic, but ....) It may not be "spam". But it may well become "illegal". Or Mr Adams is going to send you a bill for using his trademark - especially if you are using frames and display the linked page in another frame, while showing your own content in another. Linking URLs may never be the same again, depending on the decision in the test case against TotalNEWS (http://www.totalnews.com). Since the plaintiffs all have deep pockets and vested interest (Time, LA Times, CNN, WSJ, Reuters et al.) - they may sway legal opinion on their side and make URLs extension of their trademarks. If you understand legal mumbo, jumbo, you can read the whole complaint at: http://www.ljx.com/internet/complain.html This is going to open up a whole can of worms, especially if the web actually starts making money for some people. Gess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Gess Shankar pax vobiscum gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com Earth Channel Communications, LLC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jun 5 21:01:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA09826 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id SAA09504 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sportsurf.net (sportsurf.net [192.41.36.58]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-970308-2) with ESMTP id SAA20963 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.204.56.156] (sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156]) by sportsurf.net (8.8.5) id TAA29007; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 19:11:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199706060111.TAA29007@sportsurf.net> X-Authentication-Warning: sportsurf.net: Host sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156] claimed to be [192.204.56.156] Subject: RE: Sites that host lists Date: Thu, 5 Jun 97 21:20:35 -0000 x-sender: mark@sportsurf.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Mark Rauterkus To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, We're interested in hosting lists at our site if the list(s) cover sports participation and fitness topic(s). Commercial to Academic does not matter. The fee is right if you have the list leaders in place. Send your idea/proposal to: list-mom@sportsurf.net Thanks for the consideration. This is a new service expected to be in full-swing August 1. Mark Rauterkus, publisher From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jun 5 21:08:22 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA09328 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id UAA09309 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.5/1.2.3) id VAA19893 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 21:38:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199706060338.VAA19893@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 21:38:42 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Linking URLs may never be the same again, depending on the decision > in the test case against TotalNEWS (http://www.totalnews.com). Since > the plaintiffs all have deep pockets and vested interest (Time, LA > Times, CNN, WSJ, Reuters et al.) - they may sway legal opinion on > their side and make URLs extension of their trademarks. > > If you understand legal mumbo, jumbo, you can read the whole > complaint at: http://www.ljx.com/internet/complain.html I think you are misconstruing this case. Nothing in this case implies that if it were successful you would suddenly be placing yourself in legal risk by putting a link to CNN's page on your own page. TotalNews is being sued because they designed a site that traded on trademarks they didn't own -- if you don't wrap someone else's site in your own frames, you've got nothing to worry about. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jun 5 21:14:53 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA20139 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 19:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id TAA19974 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 19:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA27383; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 21:15:11 -0500 (CDT) To: Mark Moore Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: mailer prog died with signal 13 References: <3.0.2.32.19970602090529.007576bc@gleim.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 05 Jun 1997 21:15:11 -0500 In-Reply-To: Mark Moore's message of Mon, 02 Jun 1997 09:05:29 -0400 Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.46/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "HF" == Mark Moore writes: HF> I keep getting "mailer prog died with signal 13", then HF> "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo" errors in sendmail. First off, this isn't a list for majordomo. You want majordomo-users@greatcircle.com. Second, sig 13 is SIGPIPE, which is an odd error to get. What happens when you following the debugging instructions? - J< From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Jun 6 01:53:47 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id BAA05586 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 01:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id BAA05489 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 01:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX E5.0) id 5; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 01:48:26 -0700 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 01:48:23 -0700 From: "Henry W. Miller" To: jonathan@NrgUp.Com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009B55A4.2ECFF9F4.5@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: RE: AOL problems? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"jonathan@NrgUp.Com" "Jonathan Bradshaw" 5-JUN-1997 15:41:04.82 > Subj: AOL problems? Jonathan, > Well, yesterday was obviously a bad day for AOL... I wonder how today will > be. I think I got every possible error message they could throw out, from > multiple mail servers. > I saw the same problem twice over the past weekend, and then nothing more. I sent a copy to postmaster@aol.com, received a comfirmation of the recepit of the message, then nothing more. -HWM > Btw, my nameservers are working fine, so the errors below about not finding > me in the DNS table may also be a problem on their end. All other 4,500 > deliveries during that time to other hosts were fine. > > 2 12.43 Connected to 198.81.19.159 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 cannot lockf(/aol/sendmail/lib/aliases.db, fd=6, type=1, omode=37777777777, euid=0): No locks available/ > 1 11.39 Connected to 198.81.19.159 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 cannot lockf(qfLAA25750, fd=6, type=6, omode=37777777777, euid=0): No locks available/ > 1 9.25 Connected to 198.81.19.160 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 cannot lockf(/aol/sendmail/lib/aliases.db, fd=6, type=1, omode=37777777777, euid=0): No locks available/ > 1 2.79 Connected to 198.81.19.155 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 queuename: Cannot create "qfNAA16045" in "/aol/mqueues/mqueue" (euid=0): File table overflow/ > 6 832.93 Connected to 198.81.11.78 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 /aol/sendmail/bin/dnc: cannot fork: Not enough space/ > 2 198.22 Connected to 198.81.11.78 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 SMTP-MAIL: cannot fork: Not enough space/ > 4 498.61 Connected to 198.81.11.78 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 db map lookup: get (AIP-request@NrgUp.Com): Not enough space/ > 4 539.46 Connected to 198.81.11.100 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 /aol/sendmail/bin/dnc: cannot fork: Not enough space/ > 2 174.19 Connected to 198.81.11.55 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 SMTP-MAIL: cannot fork: Not enough space/ > 21 2853.10 Connected to 198.81.11.55 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 /aol/sendmail/bin/dnc: cannot fork: Not enough space/ > 3 839.81 Connected to 198.81.11.107 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 ... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Jun 6 08:46:20 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA24854 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from york.interport.net (york.interport.net [199.184.165.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id IAA24734 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eling.fac.com (elin.port.net [204.74.7.143]) by york.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA03217 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:44:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970606114102.0074fa48@pop.interport.net> X-Sender: elin@pop.interport.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 11:41:06 +0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Greg Elin Subject: Question: Megs per account? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As I consider setting up email accounts, how much disk space, on avarage, should I allocate per email account for: beginning users (first year on the net)? average users? heavy users? (Assume every 60 days read mail is either removed or archived.) Thank you. /Greg From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jun 7 20:10:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA17243 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 20:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparkie.gnofn.org (sparkie.gnofn.org [206.27.168.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id UAA17228 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 20:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparkie.gnofn.org (sparkie.gnofn.org [206.27.168.35]) by sparkie.gnofn.org (8.7.Beta.10/8.7.Beta.10) with SMTP id WAA13480 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 22:02:31 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 22:02:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Michael L De Shazo To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: hello Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk hi, my name is mike. i do not currently run a mailing list, but am about to start one. i have a question about something, and i knew this was the place to go. i have heard that it is possible to get certain places to run a mailing list for you free. i would like some information on this. since i am sure this has been discussed on the list already, you may privately e-mail me at mld01@gnofn.org if you'd like. please help me out, and i look forward to your replies. mike d mld01@gnofn.org From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Jun 8 17:55:50 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA07593 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id RAA07580 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cinna.ultra.net (cinna.ultra.net [199.232.56.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id UAA13344 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voyager (d8.dial-5.wal.ma.ultra.net [146.115.77.136]) by cinna.ultra.net (8.8.5/ult1.04) with SMTP id XAA11116 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:58:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970606035941.00a53bc8@pop.ma.ultranet.com> X-Sender: stanr@pop.ma.ultranet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 23:59:41 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Stan Ryckman Subject: Re: AOL bouncing to the From: address? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 04:42 PM 6/2/97 -0700, Brian J. Murrell wrote: >Just saw some bounce mail form AOL to the "From:" address!! That shouldn't happen unless that address also matches the SMTP MAIL FROM address. However, compuserve has done it recently but not consistently. > It seems that >whenever I see one of these it's because the "return-path" "MAIL FROM" is >"<>". No, mail bounces should *always* have the SMTP MAIL FROM as "<>". This is spelled out in the RFC's, and serves to keep an undeliverable mail bounce from being bounced itself, starting a mail bounce loop. >Are even AOL not getting this right? They usually get it right. Have you sent them the headers so that they might be able to identify a potentially mis-configured machine? I'm sure they're aware of where they're *supposed* to bounce to, but I suppose something could be misconfigured somewhere. Cheers, Stan From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Jun 8 18:01:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA07446 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id RAA07438 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.213.24]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id PAA10068 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brian@localhost) by ilinx.ilinx.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA26649; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:32:30 -0700 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199706052232.PAA26649@ilinx.ilinx.com> Subject: Re: question To: kali@europa.com (kali) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "kali" at Jun 5, 97 02:21:07 pm X-Phone: '1 604 983 UNIX' Organization: 'InterLinx Support Services, Inc.' Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As enscripted by kali: > > When someone sends a message to a list and it bounces for some trivial > reason and I want to "approve" and resend it to the list (so that it > looks as if it's been posted by them) can I do this? and how? bouncing it > back to the list doesn't really work because then it is posted by > owner-list.... Yes, indeed. What you really want, is for your list processor to send the owner the diagnostic message and MIME (message/rfc822) encapsulate the whole message that caused the bounce in a message. Any good MIME reading mailer (I use Ishmail - www.ishmail.com on Linux) will allow you to open the encapsulated message and "remail" (aka "bounce" or "resend") the message. The keys to this are the good mailer. Easy to solve. And a good list processor which does as above. I put together some patches to do this for Majordomo (encapsulate the offending message in the bounce, and additionally use "Resent-From:" to authenticate the sending of the message) but the development team rejected my additions as it was a "feature" or somesuch. :-( b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Jun 8 18:10:53 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA08215 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id RAA08198 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id OAA14401 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.8.5/8.8.5/lokkur-1.1-scs) id RAA21727; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 17:02:21 -0400 (EDT) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety Date: 7 Jun 1997 17:02:21 -0400 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 24 Distribution: local Message-ID: <5nci8t$l6s@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Gess Shankar" writes: >On 2 Jun 97 at 21:03, Steve Simmons wrote: >> Right, and my link to Dilbert on my home page spams Scott Adams. >> >(Somewhat off-topic, but ....) >It may not be "spam". But it may well become "illegal". Or Mr Adams >is going to send you a bill for using his trademark - especially if >you are using frames and display the linked page in another frame, >while showing your own content in another. Please check your facts. None of the things you describe except for the name `Dilbert' occur on my web page, and since I'm making brief quality description of it, it falls under fair use. Yeesh.... We now return you to the silliness already in progress. -- ``... went to see a sneak preview of `The Lost World.' I was going to dwell on all that was wrong with this movie, but decided instead to focus on what was good about it instead. Here goes: It finally ended, and this proved to me that God exists and it is a good and merciful God.'' -Colin Lamb From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jun 9 07:25:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA03318 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m14.boston.juno.com (m14.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.193]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id HAA03165 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from thom.list@juno.com) by m14.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KoQ01592; Mon, 09 Jun 1997 10:14:27 EDT To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: [List-Mgrs]: High Volume, Low Cost Options? Message-ID: <19970609.072138.6495.2.Thom.List@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-106 From: thom.list@juno.com (R. E. Thompson) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 10:14:27 EDT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ------------------------------------------------------------ Greetings from a newbie. I've read the list for a week. This is my first posting. I've just been elected one of a 3-member team of new list ad- ministrators. None of us ever has done this before. Our group's founding list admin is retiring, and is about to teach us the job via e-mail. At the same time, the subscriber majority voted to move to a new provider, to regain the subscriber-option of non-digest format. Finding an appropriate provider for our subscribers' needs is turning out to be the challenging part. Currently our subscriber-based e-mail discussion list has *650 subscribers, receiving (prior to a recent switch to digest-only format) *30 messages per day, so, let's say, *20,000 message deliveries per day *no fee; we donated $40/month at our insistence *unmoderated *most subscribers are in North America, some Europe, Australia, New Zealand, etc. *no archives *open subscribing *seeking subscriber toggle digest/non-digest We are a non-profit 12-Step mutual support group around an issue that affects health and spiritual well-being. Currently we are hosted on a University system at solar.cini.utk.edu using ListProc 6.0c but our undigested mail volume overtaxed the system, so we were switched to digest-only format by UTK. I see two flavors of lists everywhere: "on-topic" discussion lists, which generate fewer message postings, and "chat"-style lists which include some "Good 4 U," "We love you," moral support, "group fellowship" message postings. Some have tried to make this into an "on-topic" discussion list only, but that is not what is wanted, by majority vote. Many want reflector "instant" messages and plenty of them. Some are happy with a daily digest of such messages. A few of us prefer *not* to invest time going through a digest that in- cludes "chat"-style postings, but instead, want a focused, "on-topic" discussion, which in our experience has tended to net 10 to 12 postings per day. Meeting the needs of all, may take at least two lists, prefer- ably three, which we are about to propose to the subscribers: [1] A post-as-much-as-you-must list, available in both immed- iate reflector and daily digest forms. I'm guessing that would attract 500 subscribers, 20 to 30 messages posted per day: 15,000 message deliveries per day. [2] A focused topic-discussion list, preferably available in digest only, so as to not attract instant-contact "chat" -style content. I'm guessing 100 - 200 subscribers, 10 msgs per day: 1,000 to 2,000 message deliveries/day. [3] A group business-discussion list available to all members of both lists above. Probably 40 - 100 members, more variable flow, some days 20 messages, many days no messages: average 200 - 500 per day, peak 2,000 in a day. Two smaller such lists would fit on many systems. The large "parent" list's message volume occupies enough band- width that hosting possibilities are limited, especially in the non-profit, "no mandatory dues" 12-Step Group budget range of $40.00 per month. Norm Naleks' MLM Software FAQ* says Majordomo and SmartList are great for low-load lists, but their architecture becomes counterproductive at high message volumes. (Most of the less- expensive providers I have found, use Majordomo.) (* http://library.ummed.edu/~naleks/mlmfaq/ ) That leaves ListProc 6.0c. Also the "high end" software, CREN ListProc, and LISTSERV, whose architecture is ineffecient for small-volume lists. Naleks does not *define* high message volume. Do any of you administer lists with 15,000 to 26,000 message deliveries per day? Is that considered high volume, "heavy load" in Naleks' terms? Do you do a list of that volume at super-low cost? Who is your list hosting provider? Do they have a lot of experience hosting lists of this daily message volume? Any other feedback? Many thanks. R. E. "Tommi" Thompson Thom.List@juno.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jun 9 14:11:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA12473 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (h153-64-252-2.NCR.COM [153.64.252.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id OAA12439 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bill-houle (bill-houle.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM [153.64.69.200]) by ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11453; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970609140522.0099d9c0@www.sandiegoca.ncr.com> X-Sender: bhoule@www.sandiegoca.ncr.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 14:12:08 -0700 To: "Brian J. Murrell" , kali@europa.com (kali) From: Bill Houle Subject: Re: question Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The MIME technique may be overkill. If my interpretation of kali's post is correct, they are probably using Majordomo. If Majordomo bounces a post with the usual "BOUNCE: reason" mecahnism, then re-posting as an Approved message is already supported by the listserver. The fact that a re-post is coming from owner-list means that kali's method of remailing is likely in error. If the Majordomo deduction is correct, then I suggest that this be taken up on the majordomo-users@greatcircle.com mailing list. --bill At 03:32 PM 6/5/97 -0700, Brian J. Murrell wrote: >As enscripted by kali: >> >> When someone sends a message to a list and it bounces for some trivial >> reason and I want to "approve" and resend it to the list (so that it >> looks as if it's been posted by them) can I do this? and how? bouncing it >> back to the list doesn't really work because then it is posted by >> owner-list.... > >Yes, indeed. What you really want, is for your list processor to send >the owner the diagnostic message and MIME (message/rfc822) encapsulate >the whole message that caused the bounce in a message. Any good MIME >reading mailer (I use Ishmail - www.ishmail.com on Linux) will allow >you to open the encapsulated message and "remail" (aka "bounce" or >"resend") the message. > >The keys to this are the good mailer. Easy to solve. And a good list >processor which does as above. I put together some patches to do this >for Majordomo (encapsulate the offending message in the bounce, and >additionally use "Resent-From:" to authenticate the sending of the >message) but the development team rejected my additions as it was a >"feature" or somesuch. :-( > >b. > >-- >Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com >InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com >North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX > Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD > > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jun 9 15:04:25 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA16924 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atheria.europa.com (atheria.europa.com [199.2.194.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id OAA16888 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thetics.europa.com(really [199.2.194.14]) by atheria.europa.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:40:12 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #4 built 1997-Jan-19) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:40:11 -0700 (PDT) From: kali To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: question In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970609140522.0099d9c0@www.sandiegoca.ncr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Correct, I am using majordomo. I was under the impression that majordomo-users was for sys adm type people, not the actual managers. I will try there. Thanks for all the input! -kali On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Bill Houle wrote: > The MIME technique may be overkill. If my interpretation of kali's post is > correct, they are probably using Majordomo. If Majordomo bounces a post > with the usual "BOUNCE: reason" mecahnism, then re-posting as an Approved > message is already supported by the listserver. The fact that a re-post is > coming from owner-list means that kali's method of remailing is likely in > error. > > If the Majordomo deduction is correct, then I suggest that this be taken up > on the majordomo-users@greatcircle.com mailing list. > > --bill > > > > At 03:32 PM 6/5/97 -0700, Brian J. Murrell wrote: > >As enscripted by kali: > >> > >> When someone sends a message to a list and it bounces for some trivial > >> reason and I want to "approve" and resend it to the list (so that it > >> looks as if it's been posted by them) can I do this? and how? bouncing it > >> back to the list doesn't really work because then it is posted by > >> owner-list.... > > > >Yes, indeed. What you really want, is for your list processor to send > >the owner the diagnostic message and MIME (message/rfc822) encapsulate > >the whole message that caused the bounce in a message. Any good MIME > >reading mailer (I use Ishmail - www.ishmail.com on Linux) will allow > >you to open the encapsulated message and "remail" (aka "bounce" or > >"resend") the message. > > > >The keys to this are the good mailer. Easy to solve. And a good list > >processor which does as above. I put together some patches to do this > >for Majordomo (encapsulate the offending message in the bounce, and > >additionally use "Resent-From:" to authenticate the sending of the > >message) but the development team rejected my additions as it was a > >"feature" or somesuch. :-( > > > >b. > > > >-- > >Brian J. Murrell > brian@ilinx.com > >InterLinx Support Services, Inc. > brian@wimsey.com > >North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 > UNIX > > Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD > > > > > ********************************************** kali@europa.com List/Web Mistress for the Dandy Warhols http://www.dandywarhols.com Mail me for info about the mailing list Dandy's Rule! "....too many idiot's...not enough comets...." *********************************************** From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jun 9 19:12:49 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA08486 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id QAA08436 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX E5.0) id 15; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:37:29 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:37:27 -0700 From: "Henry W. Miller" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009B587B.E168D05C.15@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Misleading bounce message from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is an interesting bounce message - is the username really unknown or is it a full mailbox? (username changed to protect the innocent...) -HWM > From: MX%"MAILER-DAEMON@aol.com" "Mail Delivery Subsystem" 9-JUN-1997 10:26:01.10 > Subj: Returned mail: User unknown > The original message was received at Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:24:58 -0400 (EDT) > from sacsa3.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.48] > > If your mail was returned due to a potentially misspelled AOL > e-mail address, we may be able to assist you in finding the correct > address. Point your WWW browser at > > http://www.idot.aol.com/search/ > > Here you will find instructions and a simple form to help you > locate the email address you are looking for! > > > NOTE: we cannot and will not divulge private information about > members. Please only use the search resource if you believe that you > may have misspelled a member's e-mail address. > > -AOL Postmaster > > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- > > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > ... while talking to jpin03.mail.aol.com.: > >>> RCPT To: > <<< 550 xxxxxx mailbox full > 550 ... User unknown > > ----- Original message follows ----- > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jun 9 19:25:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA11708 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shore.shore.net (shore.shore.net [192.233.85.136]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id TAA11533 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jane.smoe.org (jeffw@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by shore.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id WAA29005 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA03962; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:22:29 -0400 Message-ID: <19970609222228.WW20554@smoe.org> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:22:28 -0400 From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Misleading bounce message from AOL References: <009B587B.E168D05C.15@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.59.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <009B587B.E168D05C.15@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>; from "Henry W. Miller" on Jun 9, 1997 16:37:27 -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Henry W. Miller writes: > This is an interesting bounce message - is the username really > unknown or is it a full mailbox? (username changed to protect the > innocent...) > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > > ... while talking to jpin03.mail.aol.com.: > > >>> RCPT To: > > <<< 550 xxxxxx mailbox full > > 550 ... User unknown AOL....Gotta love 'em. heh. -jeff From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 10 07:13:17 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA10948 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 07:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyberq.quality.org (cyberq.quality.org [199.181.80.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id HAA10853 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 07:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (help@localhost) by cyberq.quality.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA27166 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:06:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:06:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)" Reply-To: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Misleading bounce message from AOL In-Reply-To: <009B587B.E168D05C.15@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It looks to me like "user unknown" is the operative here. If the user's mailbox was full, the field following "Returned mail:" would read "mailbox full". Bill On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Henry W. Miller wrote: > This is an interesting bounce message - is the username really > unknown or is it a full mailbox? (username changed to protect the > innocent...) > > -HWM > > > From: MX%"MAILER-DAEMON@aol.com" "Mail Delivery Subsystem" 9-JUN-1997 10:26:01.10 > > Subj: Returned mail: User unknown > > > The original message was received at Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:24:58 -0400 (EDT) > > from sacsa3.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.48] > > > > If your mail was returned due to a potentially misspelled AOL > > e-mail address, we may be able to assist you in finding the correct > > address. Point your WWW browser at > > > > http://www.idot.aol.com/search/ > > > > Here you will find instructions and a simple form to help you > > locate the email address you are looking for! > > > > > > NOTE: we cannot and will not divulge private information about > > members. Please only use the search resource if you believe that you > > may have misspelled a member's e-mail address. > > > > -AOL Postmaster > > > > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- > > > > > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > > ... while talking to jpin03.mail.aol.com.: > > >>> RCPT To: > > <<< 550 xxxxxx mailbox full > > 550 ... User unknown > > > > ----- Original message follows ----- > > > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 10 07:25:43 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA14546 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 07:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id HAA14449 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 07:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa06104; 10 Jun 97 7:19 PDT Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 10 Jun 97 07:06:32 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Misleading bounce message from AOL From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Jun 97 07:00:46 PST In-Reply-To: <19970609222228.WW20554@smoe.org> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) writes: > Henry W. Miller writes: > > This is an interesting bounce message - is the username really > > unknown or is it a full mailbox? (username changed to protect the > > innocent...) > > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > > > ... while talking to jpin03.mail.aol.com.: > > > >>> RCPT To: > > > <<< 550 xxxxxx mailbox full > > > 550 ... User unknown > > AOL....Gotta love 'em. By a weird coincidence, I have the same sequence in a failed-delivery notice, yet from an outfit called Pipeline. It happened two days ago, and was the first I had seen. Maybe there's a new version of Sendmail out? I would expect `550' to refer to one or the other, but not both... I personally have no specific problems with AOL, and in fact have the highest praise for their diligence in maintaining their mailing list roster. I am surveyed every six months, and no other organization I'm aware of does that. I do notice that when there is a failed delivery at AOL, apparently the whole queue is held up, but I don't believe that's an AOL particular. mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org the command: subscribe nerdnosh From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 10 08:41:45 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA28648 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 08:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca (quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca [129.128.5.19]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id IAA28606 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 08:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca (root@stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca [129.128.65.240]) by quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15074; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:33:50 -0600 Received: from localhost (gerald@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA18846; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:33:44 -0600 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:33:43 -0600 (MDT) From: Gerald Oskoboiny To: Mark Moore cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: mailer prog died with signal 13 In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970602090529.007576bc@gleim.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Mark Moore wrote: > I keep getting "mailer prog died with signal 13", then > "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo" errors in sendmail. i just > installed majordomo-www gateway scripts, but they are not being used yet. > can anyone help me? I encountered this error before when sendmail couldn't fork to do majordomo stuff due to a per-user limit on the number of processes that can be running concurrently. The solution was to get that limit raised, but this could be something else, too; signal 13 just means the pipe command failed, I think. Gerald p.s. Does anyone from GreatCircle read this list? Nobody seems to be answering list-managers-approval@ or postmaster@ mail. -- Gerald Oskoboiny Phone: +1 403 492 7698 Systems Analyst, Information Systems Fax: +1 403 492 7172 Office of the Registrar and Student Awards University of Alberta From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 10 10:33:48 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA14600 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id KAA14318 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:21:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.netel.net ([207.100.74.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-970308-2) with ESMTP id JAA09137 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by www.netel.net with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:00:26 +0100 Message-ID: <714CD98EB2A6D011917800805F5CFD490114CB@www.netel.net> From: patrick glenn To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: bounce messages Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:00:25 +0100 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have experienced this same message from AOL. In our case it was becase the MailBox really was full. Patrick Glenn pglenn@netel.net 954 776 9100 NeTeL, inc Fort Lauderdale, FL 33324 From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jun 10 18:27:27 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA03660 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 18:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor