From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun  2 15:15:19 1997
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Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:11:22 -0400
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, listmom-talk@skyweyr.com
From: Vince Sabio <wavelet@colossus.arl.mil>
Subject: A Question of Propriety
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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I need some input here ...

I have a home page for SmartBounce that lists, among other things, the MLM 
platforms that SmartBounce supports. The text is pretty straightforward,
and doesn't try to imply endorsement by any of the developers. Right from
the Web page:

  SmartBounce currently runs on Macintosh, Unix, and Windows platforms,
  and supports the following list servers: ListProc, LISTSERV, Majordomo, 
  Macjordomo, NTmail, ListSTAR, AutoShare, and LetterRip, plus manually-
  managed lists.

I decided a while back that I should hot link each MLM name to its
developer's Web site. Still, in my [admittedly small] mind, pretty basic
stuff for Web pages. Problem was, I couldn't track down URLs for either
NTmail or AutoShare. I had no idea whom to contact about NTmail -- but
since Mikael Hansen (AutoShare) had previously contacted me about the
possibility of providing SmartBounce as a CodeWarrior library for AutoShare,
so I knew whom to contact for that platform.

I've attached both my message and Mikael's response; in short, Mikael is
suggesting (if I am understanding his statement correctly) that the
presence of the supported-platforms text on the SmartBounce Web page
amounts to spam. Well, I'm not sure that I'd classify it as *spam*, per se,
but it *does* raise the issue of acceptability of the text.

So, my questions (and these are not all mutually exclusive options):

1. Is there a problem with the text as shown? That is, would you read it
as implying some sort of endorsement from the developers?

If so, then ...

2. Would it be better to include a statement to the effect of "Stated
support of any particular platform does not imply endorsement by the
developer of that platform"?

3. Should I perhaps change "supports" to "works with", so it doesn't
sound as if it is being developed in concert with any of the MLM
developers? (Well, actually, it *is* being developed cooperatively with
several of them, but that wouldn't argue *against* changing the wording.)

4. Do I need to add in a blurb about which names are trademarked and who
owns what trademarks? (I see this sorta thing a lot, but it seemed to be
overkill for a Web page.)

5. Would it be a good idea to remove the hot links? (It's really not a
big deal -- and, to be honest, I'd rather people continue browsing down
my page than zipping off to an MLM site, anyway. <g> I just figured it'd
be kinda convenient to have the server names hot linked.)

6. (I'd prefer to avoid this one, if possible ...) Does anyone see it as
such a substantial issue that it'd be best if I just removed the server
support info from the Web page altogether?

Personally, I really can't see that it is appreciably different from
saying that SmartBounce "currently runs on Macintosh, Unix, and Windows 
platforms" -- and I doubt that anyone would take issue with that. (Well,
sure, it's not likely that Apple, Microsoft, or AT&T would really care
about my stinking little Web page, but still ...)

Since (from what I can gather) most of the developers in question are on
these lists, I'd certainly like to hear from them. Similarly, though, I
would also like to get feedback/suggestions from non-developers, as well.
I'm kinda thrown by the suggestion that there might be some impropriety
in stating something as simple as what servers are currently supported by
SmartBounce -- but I am also litigationally-challenged, and wouldn't be
surprised if there really *was* some kind of problem with having that
information on there, or with my choice of wording, etc.

All feedback appreciated. Thanks ...

- Vince Sabio
  Developer, list(s) owner ... and web-page spammer? I don't *think* so ...

P.S. -- Several of you have pointed out to me that mail to my Colossus
address <wavelet@colossus.arl.mil> has been bouncing. I *think* that the
problem has been fixed with the new EIMS beta (installed today), but I
can't guarantee anything.



--- begin forwarded text

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:21:15 -0400
To: Mikael Hansen <meh@dnai.com>
From: Orion Software <orionsoft@telephonet.com>
Subject: AutoShare Home Page?

Hi Mikael,

I'm updating my SmartBounce web site, and adding links to the home pages
of the various list servers that SmartBounce supports. AutoShare, of
course, is one of them, and I'd like to hot link it to your web page --
but I can't find it.

Could you please send me the URL? Thanks!

_____________________________________________________________________________
  Vince Sabio                    Home of "SmartBounce," the world's first
  Orion Software, Ltd.           automated bounce handler for mailing lists.
  orionsoft@telephonet.com       FMI:  <http://www.bsabio.com/SmartBounce/>

--- end forwarded text


--- begin forwarded text

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:05:23 -0700
To: Orion Software <orionsoft@telephonet.com>
From: Mikael Hansen <meh@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: AutoShare Home Page?

At 18:21 -0400 5/31/97, Vince Sabio of Orion Software wrote:

>I'm updating my SmartBounce web site, and adding links to the home pages
>of the various list servers that SmartBounce supports. AutoShare, of
>course, is one of them,

Sorry, I wasn't aware of that. Portraying this assumption as public
knowledge on your web page is unsolicited and as such constitutes, well,
spam...

>and I'd like to hot link it to your web page -- but I can't find it.

Two versions have been released this year, and the URL has both times been
included in the mails sent to the standard announcement lists.

--
Mikael Hansen <mailto:meh@dnai.com>

--- end forwarded text



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun  2 16:15:37 1997
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Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:48:46 -0600
From: "Douglas J. Archell" <darchell@netcent.com>
Subject: re: A Question of Propriety
To: Doug Archell <List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM>
Organization: NetCent
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Response to Vince Sabio's message on June 2, 1997:

Vince, first, FWIW this is a perfect example of the issues we discussed 
through our private chats -- how some try to classify "spam".

Using the quoted text from your page:

"  SmartBounce currently runs on Macintosh, Unix, and Windows platforms,
  and supports the following list servers: ListProc, LISTSERV, Majordomo, 
  Macjordomo, NTmail, ListSTAR, AutoShare, and LetterRip, plus manually-
  managed lists."

>>1. Is there a problem with the text as shown? That is, would you read it
as implying some sort of endorsement from the developers?<<

No, there is nothing wrong with the text as shown.  There is *nothing* in 
your post the signifies any type of endorsement from the developers.  The 
text states that SmartBounce -- your product -- supports X,Y,Z.

>>3. Should I perhaps change "supports" to "works with", so it doesn't
sound as if it is being developed in concert with any of the MLM
developers? (Well, actually, it *is* being developed cooperatively with
several of them, but that wouldn't argue *against* changing the wording.)<<

The text, as shown, does not imply any collabrative effort. Be it software 
or hardware, claims from vendors like this are rather mainstream.  By just 
saying that your product supports another doesn't imply anything regarding 
the other vendors policy and/or views of your product. If that's the case, 
then companies like Microsoft, Novell, IBM, Intel, etc etc, are essentially 
working with almost every single developer on the planet. And all those 
small vendors out there ... little did they know that they were working 
side-by-side with the big kids on the block.

>>5. Would it be a good idea to remove the hot links? (It's really not a
big deal -- and, to be honest, I'd rather people continue browsing down
my page than zipping off to an MLM site, anyway. <g> I just figured it'd
be kinda convenient to have the server names hot linked.)<<

Why?  Is the entire web not built on the premise of linking? Unless you are 
pulling THEIR content INTO your site, there is no copyright issue involved. 
There is no need to remove your links.

>>6. (I'd prefer to avoid this one, if possible ...) Does anyone see it as
such a substantial issue that it'd be best if I just removed the server
support info from the Web page altogether?<<

Absolutely not. Someone buying your product will more than likely want to 
know what your product supports.

>>Personally, I really can't see that it is appreciably different from
saying that SmartBounce "currently runs on Macintosh, Unix, and Windows 
platforms" -- and I doubt that anyone would take issue with that. (Well,
sure, it's not likely that Apple, Microsoft, or AT&T would really care
about my stinking little Web page, but still ...)<<

There is NO difference here, Vince.

>>I'm updating my SmartBounce web site, and adding links to the home pages
of the various list servers that SmartBounce supports. AutoShare, of
course, is one of them, and I'd like to hot link it to your web page --
but I can't find it.<<

Nothing wrong with this request.

>>From: Mikael Hansen <meh@dnai.com>
Sorry, I wasn't aware of that. Portraying this assumption as public
knowledge on your web page is unsolicited and as such constitutes, well,
spam...<<

Ridiculous.  Putting a link on your site to another site and/or page on the 
net is NOT "spam" as per the common definition. If we are to assume that any 
unsolicited link on one web page to another is SPAM, then probably 95% of 
the entire web community are spammers and should stop complaining about 
unsolicited email as they are now guilty of unsolicited web page links.

                          


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun  2 16:30:20 1997
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Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:26:36 -0400
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Grant Neufeld <grant@achilles.net>
Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety
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At 6:11 PM -0400 1997/6/2, Vince Sabio wrote:
>would also like to get feedback/suggestions from non-developers, as well.
>I'm kinda thrown by the suggestion that there might be some impropriety
>in stating something as simple as what servers are currently supported by
>SmartBounce
...
>>I'm updating my SmartBounce web site, and adding links to the home pages
>>of the various list servers that SmartBounce supports. AutoShare, of
>>course, is one of them,

I don't see any problem with saying it this way. You are saying that your
product supports users of the various list servers. You are not saying
anything about those products other than the fact that your product adds
value to them.

I'm not a lawyer, but... I can't understand how that could possibly be bad
unless you list non-public (trade-secret) information about someone else's
product (such as the name of a product that isn't yet public) in the
context of the above statement.

--
grant@achilles.net  grant@kagi.com  http://arpp.carleton.ca/  O-  <*>
  "Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat"
  -- John Lehman (Secretary of the US Navy 1981-1987)



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun  2 17:00:22 1997
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Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:53:07 -0700
To: <List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM>
From: Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com>
Subject: re: A Question of Propriety
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At 5:48 PM -0700 6/2/97, Douglas J. Archell wrote:
>how some try to classify "spam".

Sheesh. So spam is now "anything I don't like".

Just as censorship is "making me follow rules I don't like" on lists.

Nothing but an attempt to use a word that people react to and wedging
it to be relevant to your situation. A great way to devalue the word so
people tune it out (frankly, don't most of us tune out censorship
screams now at first glance?).

>knowledge on your web page is unsolicited and as such constitutes, well,
>spam...<<
>
>Ridiculous.

Bottom line: it's ridiculous. And if you spend all of your time trying
to make 100% of the world happy 100% of the time, you'll never
accomplish anything useful again, and go crazy in the meantime...

I wouldn't waste my energy on requests like this.....


--
         Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
                       <http://www.solutions.apple.com/>

 Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) <http://www.plaidworks.com/>
   (<http://www.plaidworks.com/hockey/> +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)




From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun  2 21:30:39 1997
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From: Mike Nolan <nolan@celery.tssi.com>
Message-Id: <199706030430.XAA13979@celery.tssi.com>
Subject: re: A Question of Propriety 
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:30:01 -0500 (CDT)
Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com
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 Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> wrote:


> Sheesh. So spam is now "anything I don't like".
> 
> Just as censorship is "making me follow rules I don't like" on lists.

To paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart, I'm not sure I can define spam,
but I know it when I see it.

I always wonder if folks who carry on about censorship on mailing lists
have ever attempted to place a 'help wanted' ad in the 'apartments for
rent' section of the classified ads in their local newspaper.  Not only
is that Censorship, it's Restraint of Trade!  :-)
--
Mike Nolan

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun  2 22:00:11 1997
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Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:22:00 -0600
From: "Douglas J. Archell" <darchell@netcent.com>
Subject: re[2]: A Question of Propriety
To: Doug Archell <List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM>
Organization: NetCent
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Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> wrote:

>>Nothing but an attempt to use a word that people react to and wedging
it to be relevant to your situation. A great way to devalue the word so
people tune it out (frankly, don't most of us tune out censorship
screams now at first glance?).<<

Exactly. The term "spam" is almost as bad as "paradigm shift" <G>

    


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun  3 07:52:58 1997
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From: "Nathan J. Mehl" <nmehl@leftbank.com>
Message-Id: <199706031432.KAA12722@zax.leftbank.com>
Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety
To: wavelet@colossus.arl.mil (Vince Sabio)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:32:31 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, listmom-talk@skyweyr.com
In-Reply-To: <v0300781cafb8eaa0baf7@[131.218.204.98]> from "Vince Sabio" at Jun 2, 97 06:11:22 pm
X-Abby-Says: Nathan, you keep getting to be the first person who does things to me
X-My-Minions: Took over Lunacon...and Minbar.
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Your complaniant is out of his friggin mind.  Saying "my utility can
be used with product X" on a web page is not spam.  Period.  It is
neither unsolicited nor an advertisment -- it is a simple, relevant
and necessary statement of your product's capabilities.

If this bozo doesn't care for what amounts to a free plug, just 
yank it from your page and wash your hands of the matter.  It's
his loss.

-n

--
Don't blame me -- I voted for the Unabomber!
Nathan J. Mehl -- The Left Bank Operation 
(work) nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com   
(play) memory@blank.org   -- http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nmehl/

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun  3 08:45:40 1997
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Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:05:15 -0500
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: "Kent S. Larsen II" <klarsen@panix.com>
Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety
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At 1:00 AM -0700 on 6/3/97, "Douglas J. Archell" <darchell@netcent.com> wrot=
e:

> At 6:11 PM -0400 1997/6/2, Vince Sabio wrote:
> >>5. Would it be a good idea to remove the hot links? (It's really not a
> big deal -- and, to be honest, I'd rather people continue browsing down
> my page than zipping off to an MLM site, anyway. <g> I just figured it'd
> be kinda convenient to have the server names hot linked.)<<
>
> Why?  Is the entire web not built on the premise of linking? Unless you ar=
e
> pulling THEIR content INTO your site, there is no copyright issue involved=
=2E
> There is no need to remove your links.
>

While IANAL, I think this is not legally clear. I've read recently about a
dispute between Microsoft and Sidewalks over MS's link to Sidewalks (I
think I have this right, but I'm not completely sure).

Regardless of the legality of it, however, my feeling is that if he doesn't
want a link from your site to his, don't put it in - it will only
inconvenience him, not you. (or you could put some kind of note on your
site saying that he didn't want you to link to him).

He's not being very wise about this, but why not give him what he wants?

BTW, IMO you don't need to change anything else.

Kent


Kent S. "Kip" Larsen II; KLarsen@panix.com or KLarsen@NorthSouth.com (work).
Pass the SPAM ban! Ask your Congressperson to support CAUCE
http://www.cauce.org



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Comments: Authenticated sender is <darchell@mail.valley-internet.com>
From: "Douglas J. Archell" <darchell@netcent.com>
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Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:44:07 +0000
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Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety
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>From the press releases I read on this one a little while back, it
was a little more than just a link or two on the site though .... a
large portion of MS's site tied into the other.

> Date:          Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:05:15 -0500
> To:            List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
> From:          "Kent S. Larsen II" <klarsen@panix.com>
> Subject:       Re: A Question of Propriety

> > Why?  Is the entire web not built on the premise of linking? Unless you are
> > pulling THEIR content INTO your site, there is no copyright issue involved.
> > There is no need to remove your links.
> >
> 
> While IANAL, I think this is not legally clear. I've read recently about a
> dispute between Microsoft and Sidewalks over MS's link to Sidewalks (I
> think I have this right, but I'm not completely sure).
> 

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun  3 11:30:29 1997
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Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety
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y
> 
> > > Why?  Is the entire web not built on the premise of linking? Unless you are
> > > pulling THEIR content INTO your site, there is no copyright issue involved.
> > > There is no need to remove your links.
> > >
> >
> > While IANAL, I think this is not legally clear. I've read recently about a
> > dispute between Microsoft and Sidewalks over MS's link to Sidewalks (I
> > think I have this right, but I'm not completely sure).
> >------

There is also a news site that has a frame with their advertising and then another
frame that has the CNN news site (and other news sites as well)  Apparently all 
this site does is repackage someone else's copyrighted news pages within
their advertising frames.  From what I read, CNN and the other news outlets are 
NOT amused.  Although, IANAL, it's easy to see why they are unhappy. So although 
the web is built on the premise of linking, there are ways to overdo any concept, 
I guess.

AlanCz

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun  3 12:15:21 1997
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Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:17:28 -0400
To: <List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM>
From: Vince Sabio <wavelet@colossus.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety
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** Sometime around 00:22 -0400 6/3/97, Douglas J. Archell sent everyone:

>Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> wrote:
>
>>>Nothing but an attempt to use a word that people react to and wedging
>it to be relevant to your situation. A great way to devalue the word so
>people tune it out (frankly, don't most of us tune out censorship
>screams now at first glance?).<<
>
>Exactly. The term "spam" is almost as bad as "paradigm shift" <G>

Hey! I work for the government; we couldn't produce *half* the paperwork
we that we do if we didn't have catch phrases like "paradigm shift" at
our disposal.

(Hmmm ... now that I put it *that* way, I think I'm starting to see your
point.)

Seriously, I'd like to thank everyone for all the feedback, both public
and private. It has been overwhelmingly in support of the text as it
stands -- though I think I will nevertheless change "supports" to "works
with," just avoid what might appear to be a collaborative effort.

The response on this issue has certainly resulted in a parad^H^H^H^H^H
strong change of opinion at this end. Thanks again.

- Vince
  (Who is currently preparing for a move to the private sector, and is
  thus practicing his avoidance of catch phrases ... ;-)



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun  3 13:15:50 1997
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Date: Tue, 3 Jun 97 16:04 EDT
From: matt@netmeg.net (Matt Magri)
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety
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Vince Sabio <wavelet@colossus.arl.mil> wrote:
>  SmartBounce currently runs on Macintosh, Unix, and Windows platforms,
>  and supports the following list servers: ListProc, LISTSERV, Majordomo, 
>  Macjordomo, NTmail, ListSTAR, AutoShare, and LetterRip, plus manually-
>  managed lists.
[ ... ]
>3. Should I perhaps change "supports" to "works with", so it doesn't
>sound as if it is being developed in concert with any of the MLM
>developers? (Well, actually, it *is* being developed cooperatively with
>several of them, but that wouldn't argue *against* changing the wording.)

If that wording makes you feel better, then by all means change it. You
could also reword the whole thing. Something along the lines of...

:  SmartBounce currently runs on Macintosh, Unix, and Windows platforms,
:  and supports a wide range of list server software. SmartBounce has
:  been used with ListProc, LISTSERV, Majordomo, Macjordomo, NTmail,
:  ListSTAR, AutoShare, and LetterRip, plus manually-managed lists.

That seems to sidestep the whole question, IMHO.

>Mikael Hansen <meh@dnai.com> wrote:
>>Vince Sabio of Orion Software wrote:
>>>I'm updating my SmartBounce web site, and adding links to the home pages
>>>of the various list servers that SmartBounce supports. AutoShare, of
>>>course, is one of them,
>>  
>> Sorry, I wasn't aware of that. Portraying this assumption as public
>> knowledge on your web page is unsolicited and as such constitutes, well,
>> spam...

It's depressing to see someone so ignorant of what spam actually is. I
would never have guessed that there was anyone who thought it meant an
`unsolicited portrayal of an assumption as public knowledge' or whatever
it is he's claiming.

What is he saying? That he wasn't aware that AutoShare was supported by
SmartBounce? Why did he contact you about it earlier then? Or is he
saying that you're wrong and that SmartBounce -doesn't- work with
AutoShare? Weird.

>>>and I'd like to hot link it to your web page -- but I can't find it.
>>
>> Two versions have been released this year, and the URL has both times been
>> included in the mails sent to the standard announcement lists.

Weird, again. Don't add a link for his product, I guess. It would blow
that whole low-profile thing he's trying to achieve with AutoShare, I
guess. :-P

Matt

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun  3 16:30:51 1997
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Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:34:42 -0400
To: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" <listmom-talk@skyweyr.com>,
        List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Vince Sabio <wavelet@colossus.arl.mil>
Subject: RE: A Question of Propriety
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** Sometime around 17:44 -0400 6/3/97, Avi Rappoport sent everyone:

>OTOH, I don't think you should quote people's private email on public mailing
>lists without their permission.  Paraphrasing is fine, asking questions based
>on the message is fine, but full quoting seems to be too invasive.

In many ways, I agree -- but excerpting runs the risk of complaints (often
well founded) of "My comments were taken out of context."

I've had it happen to me, and it has bothered me deeply. I really very much
(is that strong enough?) prefer when people quote the relevant portion(s)
of my comments in their entirety, whenever possible. Thus, I felt it was
safer to quote in full than to excerpt. (Take another look at the reply and
ask yourself what part of that would *not* have simply left people confused 
(okay, *more* confused) if presented by itself ...)

The other option would be to paraphrase -- but, to be honest, Mikael's
message left me so confused about what, exactly, he was getting at (and
several others, apparently, judging by the different interpretations of it)
that I did not feel competent to try to paraphrase it.

Apologies if any toes have been stepped on,  however ...

- Vince Sabio
  wavelet@colossus.arl.mil

[Note: Some deep-seated psychological problems in my mail server are
currently coming to the fore, and the server is routinely trying to
commit suicide. Counseling is helping, but the new hard drive that's on
order will help a lot more. In the meantime, getting mail to me at this
address will be a crapshoot at best. Apologies for server timeouts and
message requeues until things are repaired. </vs>]



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun  3 18:30:14 1997
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Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:31:20 -0400
To: "Kent S. Larsen II" <klarsen@panix.com>, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Vince Sabio <wavelet@colossus.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety
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** Sometime around 12:05 -0400 6/3/97, Kent S. Larsen II sent everyone:

>Regardless of the legality of it, however, my feeling is that if he doesn't
>want a link from your site to his, don't put it in - it will only
>inconvenience him, not you. (or you could put some kind of note on your
>site saying that he didn't want you to link to him).

I don't feel that a note is necessary -- but I agree 100%, if he doesn't
want a link, I certainly won't force one on him. My question, though, was
more along the lines of creating an appearance of developer endorsement by
including the "supports" text and links on the Web page (which I guess has
been pretty well resolved by now -- but since my mail server has been
acting up, I get the feeling that I have received this message somewhat out
of order from the rest; apologies if so).

- Vince Sabio
  wavelet@colossus.arl.mil

[Note: Some deep-seated psychological problems in my mail server are
currently coming to the fore, and the server is routinely trying to
commit suicide. Counseling is helping, but the new hard drive that's on
order will help a lot more. In the meantime, getting mail to me at this
address will be a crapshoot at best. Apologies for server timeouts and
message requeues until things are repaired. </vs>]



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun  3 19:15:24 1997
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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:11:33 +0100
To: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" <listmom-talk@skyweyr.com>,
        List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: james@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk (James Berriman)
Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety (or a question of assumptions?)
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At 23:11 2/6/97, Vince Sabio wrote:
>I need some input here ...

Perhaps I can be of some assistance? You wrote:

>Subject: AutoShare Home Page?
>
>Hi Mikael,
>
>I'm updating my SmartBounce web site, and adding links to the home pages
>of the various list servers that SmartBounce supports. AutoShare, of
>course, is one of them, and I'd like to hot link it to your web page --
>but I can't find it.
>
>Could you please send me the URL? Thanks!

Well, here we go straight to the crux of the problem! You say "...the
various list servers that SmartBounce supports. AutoShare, of course, is
one of them...".

Let us call this 'the assumption in question'.

Vince, I guess it's just possible that your request could have been, well,
misconstrued...

Perhaps I can help to reword that message for maximum impact :-)

===

Subject: A Recipe for Disaster.

Hi Mikael,

I don't have a recent version of AutoShare to hand, so naturally it follows that

*I don't know where the website is.

[Oops. Details of the website location and a copy of the web documentation
are both distributed with the application]

*I'm telling all visitors to my site that my software supports AutoShare
(any old version will do - I haven't read the latest documentation, but I'm
sure you haven't changed anything since 1.0, right?).

[I wonder. Did you know that the current release (AutoShare 1.3) includes a
simple built-in bounce handling module?]

Oh, and in conclusion...

*I'd love to link to your web site. That way, when people get stuck they
can come to you for advice (what's that URL again?).

===

Obviously, that's not quite the impression you were trying to convey  :-)

But Mikael could be forgiven for wondering how you can claim to support
AutoShare when you don't know where to find the latest documentation.

I suggest that this is the assumption with which he was taking issue (and
not, as some people appear to believe, the mere existence of a hypertext
link to his site). He said "Portraying this assumption", not "this link".

Which leads me on to the meaning of a _private_ remark from Mikael. Not a
public criticism (although you chose to make it public).

>Sorry, I wasn't aware of that. Portraying this assumption as public
>knowledge on your web page is unsolicited and as such constitutes, well,
>spam...

Does anyone detect a note of irony here? That's how I read it. But I'm more
used to his email style than most :-)

Mikael was evidently pissed off, so he made a comment designed to press all
your buttons at once. We all _know_ how hot you are on the subject of spam.

IMO, this whole thing could and should have been cleared up in private
email. If you didn't understand the message, why not ask the originator for
an explanation?

( :-])  James

Follow-up:

I had a second look at SmartBounce. When SmartBounce first came out,
AutoShare didn't support remote admin by email. So the 'SmartBounce Server
File' was no direct use. These days, AutoShare supports list passwords and
remote email admin. But the format of that 'SmartBounce Server File' is now
just plain wrong (it wouldn't take much to fix, for those who do wish to
forgo AutoShare's built-in bounce handling).

Which leads me to wonder: who has tested SmartBounce with AutoShare?

As things currently stand, I don't believe that SmartBounce directly
supports AutoShare. "Portraying this assumption as public knowledge" would
therefore be misleading.

I believe that was the substance of Mikael's objection. You assume that it
works, but don't appear to have taken a serious look at AutoShare
compatibility.

Does that clear things up?



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun  3 20:00:17 1997
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From: ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
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 Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:58:07 EDT
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 22:56:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Sites that host lists?
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 04 Jun 1997 03:11:33 +0100"
 <v02140b02afb9d83dbd15@[194.66.172.10]>
To: james@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk
Cc: ListMom-Talk Discussion List <listmom-talk@skyweyr.com>,
        List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
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I was asked by someone in Brazil if there are sites in the States that host
mailing lists ... free or for payment ... does somebody know of any such sites?

thanks,


Andrew Davidhazy, andpph@rit.edu - for PhotoForum on the Internet

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun  3 20:05:17 1997
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Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:02:56 -0400
To: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" <listmom-talk@skyweyr.com>,
        List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Vince Sabio <wavelet@colossus.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety (or a question of assumptions?)
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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** Sometime around 22:11 -0400 6/3/97, James Berriman sent everyone:

>I had a second look at SmartBounce. When SmartBounce first came out,
>AutoShare didn't support remote admin by email. So the 'SmartBounce Server
>File' was no direct use. These days, AutoShare supports list passwords and
>remote email admin. But the format of that 'SmartBounce Server File' is now
>just plain wrong (it wouldn't take much to fix, for those who do wish to
>forgo AutoShare's built-in bounce handling).

Hmmm ... news to me. However, since you mention that it wouldn't take
much to fix, would you mind telling me what needs to be changed, so I
can update it?

>Which leads me to wonder: who has tested SmartBounce with AutoShare?

I have two AutoShare beta testers; I do rely on feedback from my beta
testers for information regarding compatibility/problems. I will have
to follow up with them on this. (I haven't heard any complaints ... (?))

(There are simply too many platforms for me to check directly myself. I
run lists on ListProc, LISTSERV, and Macj servers; the rest are provided
by beta testers, though a couple were provided by non-beta users.)

>As things currently stand, I don't believe that SmartBounce directly
>supports AutoShare. "Portraying this assumption as public knowledge" would
>therefore be misleading.

Agreed, if that's the case. It seems odd that I'd have heard no complaints;
a follow-up with the beta testers is certainly in order. Nevertheless, I'd 
still appreciate the feedback on what needs to be changed

>I believe that was the substance of Mikael's objection. You assume that it
>works, but don't appear to have taken a serious look at AutoShare
>compatibility.

I've taken the most detailed look at compatibility that is practical in
this situation. If something has changed, it is possible that the beta
testers did not upgrade yet.

>Does that clear things up?

Well, yes and no. ;-)

- Vince Sabio
  wavelet@colossus.arl.mil

[Note: Some deep-seated psychological problems in my mail server are
currently coming to the fore, and the server is routinely trying to
commit suicide. Counseling is helping, but the new hard drive that's on
order will help a lot more. In the meantime, getting mail to me at this
address will be a crapshoot at best. Apologies for server timeouts and
message requeues until things are repaired. </vs>]



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun  3 20:30:11 1997
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Date: Tue, 3 Jun 97 23:26 EDT
From: matt@netmeg.net (Matt Magri)
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety (or a question of assumptions?)
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james@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk (James Berriman) wrote:
> Vince Sabio wrote:
> >I need some input here ...
>
> Perhaps I can be of some assistance? You wrote:

An interesting post. My gut reaction to it was much along the lines
of the one I have to mysteries that pull out a long-lost uncle at
the last minute that totally changes the whodunit mix... ;-)

> Vince, I guess it's just possible that your request could have been, well,
> misconstrued...
[ ... ]
> IMO, this whole thing could and should have been cleared up in private
> email. If you didn't understand the message, why not ask the originator for
> an explanation?

Two points. One, I hope you've likewise chided Mikael since this was
obviously -not- the course he had followed. In fact, it was his odd
reply (which required a rather extensive post by someone with personal
experience with his writing style to decipher) which led to this not
being "cleared up" after the first exchange. Second, perhaps Vince
didn't feel, based on the reply he'd gotten, that the originator was
interested in making himself clear.

Matt

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun  3 20:45:12 1997
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Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 20:34:09 -0700
To: ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
From: "Todd O." <2bits@wco.com>
Subject: Re: Sites that host lists?
Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <01IJNIIBEEHU95NZN4@ritvax.isc.rit.edu>
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At 10:56 PM 6/3/97 -0400, ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu wrote:
>I was asked by someone in Brazil if there are sites in the States that host
>mailing lists ... free or for payment ... does somebody know of any
such sites?

I just found LOF Communications (http://www.lofcom.com) and I am
thinking about starting a couple of lists with them.  The price seems
right: $10 set-up, $5 per month thereafter.

--
Todd Ourston <2bits@wco.com>
Marin County, California

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun  3 21:00:33 1997
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From: Siamak Farah <siamak@InfoStreet.com>
To: "'ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu'" <ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu>,
        "james@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk" <james@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk>
Cc: ListMom-Talk Discussion List <listmom-talk@skyweyr.com>,
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Subject: RE: Sites that host lists?
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Yes. We at InfoStreet do so. We charge $1 per day. If your contact is interested, ask them to email sales@infostreet.com

Siamak Farah
siamak@infostreet.com

Please note our new address and Phone number:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
InfoStreet, Inc.
18345 Venture Blvd, Suite 416
Tarzana, CA 91356-4243
818-776-8080-Tel
818-776-2999-Fax
http://www.infostreet.com
http://www.instantweb.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------




On Tuesday, June 03, 1997 7:57 PM, ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu [SMTP:ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu] wrote:
> I was asked by someone in Brazil if there are sites in the States that host
> mailing lists ... free or for payment ... does somebody know of any such sites?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> 
> Andrew Davidhazy, andpph@rit.edu - for PhotoForum on the Internet

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Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 21:14:57 -0700
To: ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
From: Kynn Bartlett <kynn@idyllmtn.com>
Subject: Re: Sites that host lists?
Cc: james@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk,
        ListMom-Talk Discussion List <listmom-talk@skyweyr.com>,
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At 10:56 PM 6/3/97 -0400, ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu wrote:
>I was asked by someone in Brazil if there are sites in the States that host
>mailing lists ... free or for payment ... does somebody know of any such sites?

There's lots, yeah.  Check with Yahoo, maybe -- or consider
that a lot of ISPs will do it for subscribers.

--Kynn, runs MLists.com, which sells list services, free if
        you just want a tiny "niche" list

--
  /\      /\  /\      /\          Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com
 /  \    /  \/  \    /  \              Idyll Mountain Internet 
 /  \   //\  /\  \   /  \        <URL:http://www.idyllmtn.com/~kynn>
'_| _` //  \/  \__\ '_| _`        Vice President, HTML Writers Guild

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun  3 23:00:21 1997
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thanks a lot!


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun  4 00:00:25 1997
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Date: 03 Jun 1997 21:51:00 +0200
From: fe3a002@rrz.uni-hamburg.de (Andreas Koerber)
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
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Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety
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Kent larsen wrote:
KSLI> > Why?  Is the entire web not built on the premise of linking?
KSLI> > Unless you are pulling THEIR content INTO your site, there is
KSLI> > no copyright issue involved. There is no need to remove your
KSLI> > links.
KSLI> >
KSLI> While IANAL, I think this is not legally clear. I've read
KSLI> recently about a dispute between Microsoft and Sidewalks over
KSLI> MS's link to Sidewalks (I think I have this right, but I'm not
KSLI> completely sure).

This seems to be a problem which stems from the technique not  
providing means to show in the link whether it goes to a foreig site  
(outside) or to another place in your own hierarchy. This makes it  
easy to achieve the appearance that those contents you link to were  
your own - especially when frames come in.

I don't think linking is violation of copyright, but one shloud  
consider making it clear in the linking text that this is an outside  
resoucre which is being linked to, maybe by expressly stating their  
name. Then they should rather be pleased than angry.

Yours

--
MfG                                    public pgp-key via e-mail:
Andreas Koerber                        set subject "SEND PGPKEY"
http://www.koerber.org/~andreas


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun  4 02:46:03 1997
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To: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" <listmom-talk@skyweyr.com>,
        List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: james@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk (James Berriman)
Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety (or a question of assumptions?)
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At 04:02 4/6/97, Vince Sabio wrote:

>Hmmm ... news to me. However, since you mention that it wouldn't take
>much to fix, would you mind telling me what needs to be changed, so I
>can update it?

Sure. No problem :-)

I'll follow up in private mail.

( :-])  James



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun  4 03:15:18 1997
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Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 05:11:29 -0500
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
From: Benji Spencer <spunge@ripco.com>
Subject: RE: Sites that host lists?
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yeah,

I know eldar.org does. I have several of them there. if there is an
interest, check out http://anduin.eldar.org/eldar_info.html, or contact me.
I can give you more info

benji

------------------Benji Spencer----------------------
spunge@ripco.com	http://www.ripco.com/~spunge
ben@anduin.eldar.org	http://anduin.eldar.org/~ben
thespunge@juno.com	spunge@usa.net
thespunge@hotmail.com	IRC Nick: Spunge
-----------------------------------------------------

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun  4 04:15:27 1997
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A gent named Brian Edmonds maintains a list of mailing list service
providers.  Some of these providers do not charge.  Some charge very
modest fees. 

  - http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/usenet/ml-providers.txt
  - send email to majordomo@edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca with the following
    line in the body of the message: get faq ml-providers.txt


- murr -



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun  4 05:15:14 1997
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To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
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Another great site that hosts list  is  esosoft.   they are half the cost of
everyone else...and their customer service is great!  They are on majordomo
systems and the people are great to work with!!


Contact Michael@esosoft.com  if you want information.  I have 2 list through
them and several friends have theirs also and we are all very happy.  

Alana


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun  4 07:16:17 1997
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To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Sites that host lists?
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From: edmonds@cs.ubc.ca (Brian Edmonds)
Date: 04 Jun 1997 06:20:21 -0700
In-Reply-To: ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu's message of Tue, 03 Jun 1997 22:56:30 -0400 (EDT)
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ANDPPH  <ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> writes:
> I was asked by someone in Brazil if there are sites in the States that
> host mailing lists ... free or for payment ... does somebody know of
> any such sites?

Visit <URL:http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/usenet/ml-providers.txt>
for a list of sites.  This is posted monthly to comp.mail.misc and one
of the list-admin groups.

Brian.


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Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970602090529.007576bc@gleim.com>
X-Sender: mam@gleim.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32)
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 09:05:29 -0400
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
From: Mark Moore <mark@gleim.com>
Subject: mailer prog died with signal 13
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

I keep getting "mailer prog died with signal 13", then
"|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo" errors in sendmail.  i just
installed majordomo-www gateway scripts, but they are not being used yet.
can anyone help me?
--------------
Mark Moore
mark@gleim.com
Gleim Publications, Inc.
http://www.gleim.com
     (352) 375-0772
     (800) 87-GLEIM
FAX: (352) 375-6940
---------------


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Thu Jun  5 15:02:13 1997
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	by ilinx.ilinx.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA08477
	for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:42:05 -0700
From: "Brian J. Murrell" <brian@ilinx.com>
Message-Id: <199706022342.QAA08477@ilinx.ilinx.com>
Subject: AOL bouncing to the From: address?
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:42:05 -0700 (PDT)
X-Phone: '1 604 983 UNIX'
Organization: 'InterLinx Support Services, Inc.'
Content-Type: text
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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Just saw some bounce mail form AOL to the "From:" address!!  It seems that 
whenever I see one of these it's because the "return-path" "MAIL FROM" is
"<>".

Are even AOL not getting this right?

b.

-- 
Brian J. Murrell                                               brian@ilinx.com
InterLinx Support Services, Inc.                              brian@wimsey.com
North Vancouver, B.C.                                             604 983 UNIX
        Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Thu Jun  5 15:08:33 1997
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	via sendmail with smtp
	id <m0wZjy0-000FYAC@atheria.europa.com>
	for <list-managers@greatcircle.com>; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:21:08 -0700 (PDT)
	(Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #4 built 1997-Jan-19)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:21:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: kali <kali@europa.com>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: question
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970605141530.7552C-100000@thetics.europa.com>
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I've looked up and down the owners faq and elsewhere and can't seem to
find the answer to my question (this probably shouldn't be directed to
this list...but....)

When someone sends a message to a list and it bounces for some trivial
reason and I want to "approve" and resend it to the list (so that it
looks as if it's been posted by them) can I do this? and how? bouncing it
back to the list doesn't really work because then it is posted by
owner-list....

any help would be much appreciated!

-kali

**********************************************
kali@europa.com
List/Web Mistress for the Dandy Warhols
http://www.dandywarhols.com
Dandy's Rule!
"....too many idiot's...not enough comets...."
***********************************************


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Thu Jun  5 15:15:09 1997
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	Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:03:04 -0400 (EDT)
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail
From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons)
Newsgroups: local.list-managers
Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety
Date: 2 Jun 1997 21:03:03 -0400
Organization: Inland Sea
Lines: 16
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <5mvqg7$8tq@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>
References: <v0300781cafb8eaa0baf7@[131.218.204.98]>
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Vince Sabio <wavelet@colossus.arl.mil> writes:

>I've attached both my message and Mikael's response; in short, Mikael is
>suggesting (if I am understanding his statement correctly) that the
>presence of the supported-platforms text on the SmartBounce Web page
>amounts to spam.

Right, and my link to Dilbert on my home page spams Scott Adams.

Your text is fine, his attitude and thought processes are not.  Go ahead
with your links.
-- 
``... went to see a sneak preview of `The Lost World.'  I was going to dwell
  on all that was wrong with this movie, but decided instead to focus on what
  was good about it instead.  Here goes:  It finally ended, and this proved
  to me that God exists and it is a good and merciful God.''  -Colin Lamb


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Thu Jun  5 15:16:18 1997
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	by starnine.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA18611;
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Message-ID: <n1346773249.33896@qdmail.starnine.com>
Date: 3 Jun 1997 14:44:16 -0700
From: "Avi Rappoport" <avirr@starnine.com>
Subject: RE: A Question of Propriety
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM,
        "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" <listmom-talk@skyweyr.com>,
        listmom-talk@skyweyr.com
X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.0.0
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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Vince,

I think it's great that you have a link to ListSTAR on your site, and feel no
need for you to change your wording or request anything from me whatsoever. 
Others may feel differently.

I also have no trouble with your little blurbs in the ListMom mailng list
about SmartBounce -- I think it's a fine product and a good answer for the
perennial question.

OTOH, I don't think you should quote people's private email on public mailing
lists without their permission.  Paraphrasing is fine, asking questions based
on the message is fine, but full quoting seems to be too invasive.

Avi

_____________________________________________________
Avi Rappoport
Product Manager, StarNine Technologies
<mailto:avirr@starnine.com> <http://www.starnine.com>  (510) 649-4949




From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Thu Jun  5 15:28:57 1997
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Received: from localhost (thomasm@localhost)
	by Zeus.GateKey.Com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA23841;
	Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:32:44 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:32:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas Mullaney <thomasm@GateKey.Com>
To: ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
cc: james@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk,
        ListMom-Talk Discussion List <listmom-talk@skyweyr.com>,
        List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Sites that host lists?
In-Reply-To: <01IJNIIBEEHU95NZN4@ritvax.isc.rit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970604003036.23212A-100000@Zeus.GateKey.Com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
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We host lists, what type of list do you want to run?
 
Please send my the following info, so I can give you a cost if any: 
 
1) Type of list?

2) Number of subscribers expected?
 
3) Average number of posts per day?
 
4) Digest needed?
 
5) Archiving needed?
 
6) Administrator needed?

7) Open or Closed list?

--Thomas Mullaney <thomasm@GateKey.Com>
--President/CEO - GateKey Solutions, Incorporated

~~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~
 The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.  This 
 message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of my employer,
 GateKey Solutions, Incorporated  All responsibility for the statements 
 made in this message resides solely and completely with the sender.
~~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~

On Tue, 3 Jun 1997 ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu wrote:

> I was asked by someone in Brazil if there are sites in the States that host
> mailing lists .... free or for payment ... does somebody know of any such sites?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> 
> Andrew Davidhazy, andpph@rit.edu - for PhotoForum on the Internet
> 



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Thu Jun  5 15:31:33 1997
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Received: (qmail 8483 invoked by uid 501); 3 Jun 1997 08:29:24 -0500
Message-ID: <19970603082924.14471@NrgUp.Com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:29:24 -0500
From: Jonathan Bradshaw <jonathan@NrgUp.Com>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com
Subject: AOL problems?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.75
X-Mailer-Info: http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/
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Well, yesterday was obviously a bad day for AOL... I wonder how today will
be. I think I got every possible error message they could throw out, from 
multiple mail servers.

Btw, my nameservers are working fine, so the errors below about not finding
me in the DNS table may also be a problem on their end. All other 4,500
deliveries during that time to other hosts were fine.

  2     12.43  Connected to 198.81.19.159 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 cannot lockf(/aol/sendmail/lib/aliases.db, fd=6, type=1, omode=37777777777, euid=0): No locks available/
  1     11.39  Connected to 198.81.19.159 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 cannot lockf(qfLAA25750, fd=6, type=6, omode=37777777777, euid=0): No locks available/
  1      9.25  Connected to 198.81.19.160 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 cannot lockf(/aol/sendmail/lib/aliases.db, fd=6, type=1, omode=37777777777, euid=0): No locks available/
  1      2.79  Connected to 198.81.19.155 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 queuename: Cannot create "qfNAA16045" in "/aol/mqueues/mqueue" (euid=0): File table overflow/
  6    832.93  Connected to 198.81.11.78 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 /aol/sendmail/bin/dnc: cannot fork: Not enough space/
  2    198.22  Connected to 198.81.11.78 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 SMTP-MAIL: cannot fork: Not enough space/
  4    498.61  Connected to 198.81.11.78 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 db map lookup: get (AIP-request@NrgUp.Com): Not enough space/
  4    539.46  Connected to 198.81.11.100 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 /aol/sendmail/bin/dnc: cannot fork: Not enough space/
  2    174.19  Connected to 198.81.11.55 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 SMTP-MAIL: cannot fork: Not enough space/
 21   2853.10  Connected to 198.81.11.55 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 /aol/sendmail/bin/dnc: cannot fork: Not enough space/
  3    839.81  Connected to 198.81.11.107 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 <AIP-request@NrgUp.Com>... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./
 26  31264.30  Connected to 198.81.11.14 but greeting failed./
  1    194.37  Connected to 198.81.11.16 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 <RMADG-return-132-BonJovi87=aol.com@NrgUp.Com>... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./
  1    128.51  Connected to 198.81.11.16 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 /aol/sendmail/bin/dnc: cannot fork: Not enough space/
  2   2414.43  Connected to 198.81.11.17 but greeting failed./
  2    501.25  Connected to 198.81.11.17 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 <AIP-request@NrgUp.Com>... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./
 13  15685.60  Connected to 198.81.11.20 but greeting failed./
  1    214.82  Connected to 198.81.11.29 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 <AIP-request@NrgUp.Com>... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./
  6   7234.48  Connected to 198.81.11.50 but greeting failed./
  8   9830.16  Connected to 198.81.11.51 but greeting failed./
  3   3616.86  Connected to 198.81.11.52 but greeting failed./
  4   4866.74  Connected to 198.81.11.53 but greeting failed./
 13   2748.44  Connected to 198.81.11.55 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 <AIP-request@NrgUp.Com>... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./
  1    200.85  Connected to 198.81.11.55 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 <RMADG-return-133-ACresci=aol.com@NrgUp.Com>... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./
  1    200.60  Connected to 198.81.11.55 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 <RMADG-return-133-BonJovi87=aol.com@NrgUp.Com>... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./
  1    200.84  Connected to 198.81.11.55 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 <RMADG-return-133-woodlynne=aol.com@NrgUp.Com>... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./
  5   6018.06  Connected to 198.81.11.56 but greeting failed./
  1    201.50  Connected to 198.81.11.64 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 <AIP-request@NrgUp.Com>... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./
  1    191.61  Connected to 198.81.11.72 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 <AIP-request@NrgUp.Com>... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./
  1    215.89  Connected to 198.81.11.72 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 <RMADG-return-133-woodlynne=aol.com@NrgUp.Com>... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./
  6   7269.07  Connected to 198.81.11.73 but greeting failed./
  6   7251.60  Connected to 198.81.11.74 but greeting failed./
  8   9742.39  Connected to 198.81.11.75 but greeting failed./
  1    214.24  Connected to 198.81.11.78 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 <AIP-request@NrgUp.Com>... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./
  2   2411.34  Connected to 198.81.19.149 but greeting failed./
 10  12061.45  Connected to 198.81.19.150 but greeting failed./
  2   2405.49  Connected to 198.81.19.151 but greeting failed./
 15  18113.84  Connected to 198.81.19.152 but greeting failed./
 19  22911.25  Connected to 198.81.19.154 but greeting failed./
  1    425.74  Connected to 198.81.19.155 but connection died. Possible duplicate!/
 10  12056.05  Connected to 198.81.19.155 but greeting failed./
  4   4859.39  Connected to 198.81.19.157 but greeting failed./
  9  10861.55  Connected to 198.81.19.159 but greeting failed./
  7   8437.46  Connected to 198.81.19.161 but greeting failed./
  9  10835.97  Connected to 198.81.19.163 but greeting failed./
  3   3619.08  Connected to 198.81.19.166 but greeting failed./
 21  25346.62  Connected to 198.81.19.168 but greeting failed./
  8   9659.76  Connected to 198.81.19.169 but greeting failed./
 11  13211.03  Connected to 198.81.19.171 but greeting failed./
  5   6018.58  Connected to 198.81.19.172 but greeting failed./
  8   9628.21  Connected to 198.81.19.176 but greeting failed./
  4   4835.24  Connected to 198.81.19.177 but greeting failed./



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Thu Jun  5 16:30:57 1997
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA17253 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:18:25 -0700 (PDT)
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 (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id <B0000358818@ec3.earthchannel.com>;
 Thu, 05 Jun 1997 19:21:33 -0400
Message-ID: <B0000358818@ec3.earthchannel.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gess@ec3.earthchannel.com>
From: "Gess Shankar" <gess@earthchannel.com>
Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 19:16:25 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety
Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com
In-reply-to: <5mvqg7$8tq@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1)
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

On  2 Jun 97 at 21:03, Steve Simmons wrote:

> Right, and my link to Dilbert on my home page spams Scott Adams.
> 

(Somewhat off-topic, but ....)

It may not be "spam". But it may well become "illegal". Or Mr Adams 
is going to send you a bill for using his trademark - especially if 
you are using frames and display the linked page in another frame, 
while showing your own content in another.

Linking URLs may never be the same again, depending on the decision 
in the test case against TotalNEWS (http://www.totalnews.com). Since 
the plaintiffs all have deep pockets and vested interest (Time, LA 
Times, CNN, WSJ, Reuters et al.) - they may sway legal opinion on 
their side and make URLs extension of their trademarks.

If you understand legal mumbo, jumbo, you can read the whole 
complaint at: http://www.ljx.com/internet/complain.html

This is going to open up a whole can of worms, especially if the web 
actually starts making money for some people.

Gess

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Gess Shankar                                pax vobiscum                         
gess@earthchannel.com        http://www.earthchannel.com
Earth Channel Communications, LLC. 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::  

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Thu Jun  5 21:01:28 1997
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA09826 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:19:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id SAA09504 for <List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM>; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:18:15 -0700 (PDT)
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Received: from [192.204.56.156] (sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156]) by sportsurf.net (8.8.5) id TAA29007; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 19:11:49 -0600 (MDT)
Message-Id: <199706060111.TAA29007@sportsurf.net>
X-Authentication-Warning: sportsurf.net: Host sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156] claimed to be [192.204.56.156]
Subject: RE: Sites that host lists
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 97 21:20:35 -0000
x-sender: mark@sportsurf.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: Mark Rauterkus <mrauterkus@sportsurf.net>
To: <List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

We're interested in hosting lists at our site if the list(s) cover sports 
participation and fitness topic(s). Commercial to Academic does not 
matter. The fee is right if you have the list leaders in place. Send your 
idea/proposal to: list-mom@sportsurf.net

Thanks for the consideration. This is a new service expected to be in 
full-swing August 1.

Mark Rauterkus, publisher


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Thu Jun  5 21:08:22 1997
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Message-Id: <199706060338.VAA19893@kitsune.swcp.com>
Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 21:38:42 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Lazlo Nibble" <lazlo@swcp.com>
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> Linking URLs may never be the same again, depending on the decision 
> in the test case against TotalNEWS (http://www.totalnews.com). Since 
> the plaintiffs all have deep pockets and vested interest (Time, LA 
> Times, CNN, WSJ, Reuters et al.) - they may sway legal opinion on 
> their side and make URLs extension of their trademarks.
> 
> If you understand legal mumbo, jumbo, you can read the whole 
> complaint at: http://www.ljx.com/internet/complain.html

I think you are misconstruing this case.  Nothing in this case implies that if
it were successful you would suddenly be placing yourself in legal risk by
putting a link to CNN's page on your own page.  TotalNews is being sued
because they designed a site that traded on trademarks they didn't own -- if
you don't wrap someone else's site in your own frames, you've got nothing to
worry about.

-- 
::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo)
::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Thu Jun  5 21:14:53 1997
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To: Mark Moore <mark@gleim.com>
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: mailer prog died with signal 13
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From: Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs@hpc.uh.edu>
Date: 05 Jun 1997 21:15:11 -0500
In-Reply-To: Mark Moore's message of Mon, 02 Jun 1997 09:05:29 -0400
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>>>>> "HF" == Mark Moore <mark@gleim.com> writes:

HF> I keep getting "mailer prog died with signal 13", then
HF> "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo" errors in sendmail.

First off, this isn't a list for majordomo.  You want
majordomo-users@greatcircle.com.  Second, sig 13 is SIGPIPE, which is an
odd error to get.  What happens when you following the debugging
instructions?

 - J<

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Fri Jun  6 01:53:47 1997
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Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 01:48:23 -0700
From: "Henry W. Miller" <henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
To: jonathan@NrgUp.Com
CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov
Message-ID: <009B55A4.2ECFF9F4.5@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
Subject: RE: AOL problems?
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> From:	MX%"jonathan@NrgUp.Com"  "Jonathan Bradshaw"  5-JUN-1997 15:41:04.82
> Subj:	AOL problems?

Jonathan,

> Well, yesterday was obviously a bad day for AOL... I wonder how today will
> be. I think I got every possible error message they could throw out, from 
> multiple mail servers.
> 

	I saw the same problem twice over the past weekend, and then 
nothing more.  I sent a copy to postmaster@aol.com, received a 
comfirmation of the recepit of the message, then nothing more.

-HWM

> Btw, my nameservers are working fine, so the errors below about not finding
> me in the DNS table may also be a problem on their end. All other 4,500
> deliveries during that time to other hosts were fine.
> 
>   2     12.43  Connected to 198.81.19.159 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 cannot lockf(/aol/sendmail/lib/aliases.db, fd=6, type=1, omode=37777777777, euid=0): No locks available/
>   1     11.39  Connected to 198.81.19.159 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 cannot lockf(qfLAA25750, fd=6, type=6, omode=37777777777, euid=0): No locks available/
>   1      9.25  Connected to 198.81.19.160 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 cannot lockf(/aol/sendmail/lib/aliases.db, fd=6, type=1, omode=37777777777, euid=0): No locks available/
>   1      2.79  Connected to 198.81.19.155 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 queuename: Cannot create "qfNAA16045" in "/aol/mqueues/mqueue" (euid=0): File table overflow/
>   6    832.93  Connected to 198.81.11.78 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 /aol/sendmail/bin/dnc: cannot fork: Not enough space/
>   2    198.22  Connected to 198.81.11.78 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 SMTP-MAIL: cannot fork: Not enough space/
>   4    498.61  Connected to 198.81.11.78 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 db map lookup: get (AIP-request@NrgUp.Com): Not enough space/
>   4    539.46  Connected to 198.81.11.100 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 /aol/sendmail/bin/dnc: cannot fork: Not enough space/
>   2    174.19  Connected to 198.81.11.55 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 SMTP-MAIL: cannot fork: Not enough space/
>  21   2853.10  Connected to 198.81.11.55 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 451 /aol/sendmail/bin/dnc: cannot fork: Not enough space/
>   3    839.81  Connected to 198.81.11.107 but sender was rejected./Remote host said: 450 <AIP-request@NrgUp.Com>... Sender domain not found in DNS (see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18)./

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Fri Jun  6 08:46:20 1997
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Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 11:41:06 +0000
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Greg Elin <elin@interport.net>
Subject: Question: Megs per account?
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As I consider setting up email accounts, how much disk space, on avarage,
should I allocate per email account for:

beginning users (first year on the net)?
average users?
heavy users?

(Assume every 60 days read mail is either removed or archived.)

Thank you.

/Greg

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Sat Jun  7 20:10:13 1997
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Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 22:02:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Michael L De Shazo <mld01@gnofn.org>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: hello
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hi, my name is mike. i do not currently run a mailing list, but am about
to start one.  i have a question about something, and i knew this was the
place to go.

i have heard that it is possible to get certain places to run a mailing
list for you free. i would like some information on this. since i am sure
this has been discussed on the list already, you may privately e-mail me
at mld01@gnofn.org if you'd like.  please help me out, and i look forward
to your replies.

mike d
mld01@gnofn.org


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Sun Jun  8 17:55:50 1997
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Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 23:59:41 -0400
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Stan Ryckman <stanr@sunspot.tiac.net>
Subject: Re: AOL bouncing to the From: address?
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At 04:42 PM 6/2/97 -0700, Brian J. Murrell wrote:
>Just saw some bounce mail form AOL to the "From:" address!!

That shouldn't happen unless that address also matches the SMTP MAIL
FROM address.  However, compuserve has done it recently but not
consistently.

>  It seems that 
>whenever I see one of these it's because the "return-path" "MAIL FROM" is
>"<>".

No, mail bounces should *always* have the SMTP MAIL FROM as "<>".
This is spelled out in the RFC's, and serves to keep an undeliverable
mail bounce from being bounced itself, starting a mail bounce loop.

>Are even AOL not getting this right?

They usually get it right.  Have you sent them the headers so that
they might be able to identify a potentially mis-configured machine?
I'm sure they're aware of where they're *supposed* to bounce to, but
I suppose something could be misconfigured somewhere.

Cheers,
Stan



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Sun Jun  8 18:01:40 1997
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From: "Brian J. Murrell" <brian@ilinx.com>
Message-Id: <199706052232.PAA26649@ilinx.ilinx.com>
Subject: Re: question
To: kali@europa.com (kali)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:32:30 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970605141530.7552C-100000@thetics.europa.com> from "kali" at Jun 5, 97 02:21:07 pm
X-Phone: '1 604 983 UNIX'
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As enscripted by kali:
> 
> When someone sends a message to a list and it bounces for some trivial
> reason and I want to "approve" and resend it to the list (so that it
> looks as if it's been posted by them) can I do this? and how? bouncing it
> back to the list doesn't really work because then it is posted by
> owner-list....

Yes, indeed.  What you really want, is for your list processor to send
the owner the diagnostic message and MIME (message/rfc822) encapsulate
the whole message that caused the bounce in a message.  Any good MIME
reading mailer (I use Ishmail - www.ishmail.com on Linux) will allow
you to open the encapsulated message and "remail" (aka "bounce" or
"resend") the message.

The keys to this are the good mailer.  Easy to solve.  And a good list
processor which does as above.  I put together some patches to do this
for Majordomo (encapsulate the offending message in the bounce, and
additionally use "Resent-From:" to authenticate the sending of the
message) but the development team rejected my additions as it was a
"feature" or somesuch.  :-(

b.

-- 
Brian J. Murrell                                               brian@ilinx.com
InterLinx Support Services, Inc.                              brian@wimsey.com
North Vancouver, B.C.                                             604 983 UNIX
        Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Sun Jun  8 18:10:53 1997
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To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail
From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons)
Newsgroups: local.list-managers
Subject: Re: A Question of Propriety
Date: 7 Jun 1997 17:02:21 -0400
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"Gess Shankar" <gess@earthchannel.com> writes:

>On  2 Jun 97 at 21:03, Steve Simmons wrote:

>> Right, and my link to Dilbert on my home page spams Scott Adams.
>> 

>(Somewhat off-topic, but ....)

>It may not be "spam". But it may well become "illegal". Or Mr Adams 
>is going to send you a bill for using his trademark - especially if 
>you are using frames and display the linked page in another frame, 
>while showing your own content in another.

Please check your facts.  None of the things you describe except for
the name `Dilbert' occur on my web page, and since I'm making brief
quality description of it, it falls under fair use.  Yeesh....

We now return you to the silliness already in progress.
-- 
``... went to see a sneak preview of `The Lost World.'  I was going to dwell
  on all that was wrong with this movie, but decided instead to focus on what
  was good about it instead.  Here goes:  It finally ended, and this proved
  to me that God exists and it is a good and merciful God.''  -Colin Lamb


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun  9 07:25:38 1997
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	id KoQ01592; Mon, 09 Jun 1997 10:14:27 EDT
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: [List-Mgrs]: High Volume, Low Cost Options?
Message-ID: <19970609.072138.6495.2.Thom.List@juno.com>
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From: thom.list@juno.com (R. E. Thompson)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 10:14:27 EDT
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------------------------------------------------------------ 
Greetings from a newbie. I've read the list for a week.
This is my first posting.

I've just been elected one of a 3-member team of new list ad-
ministrators. None of us ever has done this before. Our 
group's founding list admin is retiring, and is about to 
teach us the job via e-mail. 

At the same time, the subscriber majority voted to move to a 
new provider, to regain the subscriber-option of non-digest
format. Finding an appropriate provider for our subscribers'
needs is turning out to be the challenging part.

Currently our subscriber-based e-mail discussion list has
*650 subscribers, receiving (prior to a recent switch to 
 digest-only format)
*30 messages per day, so, let's say,
*20,000 message deliveries per day 
*no fee; we donated $40/month at our insistence
*unmoderated
*most subscribers are in North America, some Europe, Australia, 
 New Zealand, etc.
*no archives
*open subscribing
*seeking subscriber toggle digest/non-digest

We are a non-profit 12-Step mutual support group around an
issue that affects health and spiritual well-being.

Currently we are hosted on a University system at 
solar.cini.utk.edu using ListProc 6.0c but our undigested 
mail volume overtaxed the system, so we were switched to 
digest-only format by UTK.

I see two flavors of lists everywhere: "on-topic" discussion
lists, which generate fewer message postings, and "chat"-style
lists which include some "Good 4 U," "We love you," moral
support, "group fellowship" message postings. Some have tried
to make this into an "on-topic" discussion list only, but that
is not what is wanted, by majority vote.

Many want reflector "instant" messages and plenty of them. 
Some are happy with a daily digest of such messages. A few of 
us prefer *not* to invest time going through a digest that in-
cludes "chat"-style postings, but instead, want a focused, 
"on-topic" discussion, which in our experience has tended to 
net 10 to 12 postings per day.

Meeting the needs of all, may take at least two lists, prefer-
ably three, which we are about to propose to the subscribers:

[1] A post-as-much-as-you-must list, available in both immed-
    iate reflector and daily digest forms.
    I'm guessing that would attract 500 subscribers, 20 to 30 
    messages posted per day: 15,000 message deliveries per day.

[2] A focused topic-discussion list, preferably available in 
    digest only, so as to not attract instant-contact "chat"
    -style content.
    I'm guessing 100 - 200 subscribers, 10 msgs per day:  
    1,000 to 2,000 message deliveries/day.

[3] A group business-discussion list available to all members 
    of both lists above. 
    Probably 40 - 100 members, more variable flow, some days
    20 messages, many days no messages: average 200 - 500 per 
    day, peak 2,000 in a day.

Two smaller such lists would fit on many systems.

The large "parent" list's message volume occupies enough band-
width that hosting possibilities are limited, especially in 
the non-profit, "no mandatory dues" 12-Step Group budget range 
of $40.00 per month.

Norm Naleks' MLM Software FAQ* says Majordomo and SmartList 
are great for low-load lists, but their architecture becomes 
counterproductive at high message volumes. (Most of the less-
expensive providers I have found, use Majordomo.)

(* http://library.ummed.edu/~naleks/mlmfaq/ )

That leaves ListProc 6.0c. Also the "high end" software, CREN
ListProc, and LISTSERV, whose architecture is ineffecient 
for small-volume lists.

Naleks does not *define* high message volume. 

Do any of you administer lists with 15,000 to 26,000 message 
deliveries per day? 

Is that considered high volume, "heavy load" in Naleks' terms?

Do you do a list of that volume at super-low cost? 

Who is your list hosting provider? Do they have a lot of
experience hosting lists of this daily message volume?

Any other feedback? 

Many thanks.

R. E. "Tommi" Thompson
Thom.List@juno.com



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun  9 14:11:29 1997
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Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 14:12:08 -0700
To: "Brian J. Murrell" <brian@ilinx.com>, kali@europa.com (kali)
From: Bill Houle <Bill.Houle@SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM>
Subject: Re: question
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

The MIME technique may be overkill. If my interpretation of kali's post is
correct, they are probably using Majordomo. If Majordomo bounces a post
with the usual "BOUNCE: reason" mecahnism, then re-posting as an Approved
message is already supported by the listserver. The fact that a re-post is
coming from owner-list means that kali's method of remailing is likely in
error.

If the Majordomo deduction is correct, then I suggest that this be taken up
on the majordomo-users@greatcircle.com mailing list.

--bill



At 03:32 PM 6/5/97 -0700, Brian J. Murrell wrote:
>As enscripted by kali:
>> 
>> When someone sends a message to a list and it bounces for some trivial
>> reason and I want to "approve" and resend it to the list (so that it
>> looks as if it's been posted by them) can I do this? and how? bouncing it
>> back to the list doesn't really work because then it is posted by
>> owner-list....
>
>Yes, indeed.  What you really want, is for your list processor to send
>the owner the diagnostic message and MIME (message/rfc822) encapsulate
>the whole message that caused the bounce in a message.  Any good MIME
>reading mailer (I use Ishmail - www.ishmail.com on Linux) will allow
>you to open the encapsulated message and "remail" (aka "bounce" or
>"resend") the message.
>
>The keys to this are the good mailer.  Easy to solve.  And a good list
>processor which does as above.  I put together some patches to do this
>for Majordomo (encapsulate the offending message in the bounce, and
>additionally use "Resent-From:" to authenticate the sending of the
>message) but the development team rejected my additions as it was a
>"feature" or somesuch.  :-(
>
>b.
>
>-- 
>Brian J. Murrell
brian@ilinx.com
>InterLinx Support Services, Inc.
brian@wimsey.com
>North Vancouver, B.C.                                             604 983
UNIX
>        Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD
>
>

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun  9 15:04:25 1997
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Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:40:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: kali <kali@europa.com>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970609140522.0099d9c0@www.sandiegoca.ncr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970609143557.28653B-100000@thetics.europa.com>
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Correct, I am using majordomo. I was under the impression that
majordomo-users was for sys adm type people, not the actual managers. I
will try there. Thanks for all the input!

-kali

On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Bill Houle wrote:

> The MIME technique may be overkill. If my interpretation of kali's post is
> correct, they are probably using Majordomo. If Majordomo bounces a post
> with the usual "BOUNCE: reason" mecahnism, then re-posting as an Approved
> message is already supported by the listserver. The fact that a re-post is
> coming from owner-list means that kali's method of remailing is likely in
> error.
> 
> If the Majordomo deduction is correct, then I suggest that this be taken up
> on the majordomo-users@greatcircle.com mailing list.
> 
> --bill
> 
> 
> 
> At 03:32 PM 6/5/97 -0700, Brian J. Murrell wrote:
> >As enscripted by kali:
> >> 
> >> When someone sends a message to a list and it bounces for some trivial
> >> reason and I want to "approve" and resend it to the list (so that it
> >> looks as if it's been posted by them) can I do this? and how? bouncing it
> >> back to the list doesn't really work because then it is posted by
> >> owner-list....
> >
> >Yes, indeed.  What you really want, is for your list processor to send
> >the owner the diagnostic message and MIME (message/rfc822) encapsulate
> >the whole message that caused the bounce in a message.  Any good MIME
> >reading mailer (I use Ishmail - www.ishmail.com on Linux) will allow
> >you to open the encapsulated message and "remail" (aka "bounce" or
> >"resend") the message.
> >
> >The keys to this are the good mailer.  Easy to solve.  And a good list
> >processor which does as above.  I put together some patches to do this
> >for Majordomo (encapsulate the offending message in the bounce, and
> >additionally use "Resent-From:" to authenticate the sending of the
> >message) but the development team rejected my additions as it was a
> >"feature" or somesuch.  :-(
> >
> >b.
> >
> >-- 
> >Brian J. Murrell
> brian@ilinx.com
> >InterLinx Support Services, Inc.
> brian@wimsey.com
> >North Vancouver, B.C.                                             604 983
> UNIX
> >        Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD
> >
> >
> 

**********************************************
kali@europa.com
List/Web Mistress for the Dandy Warhols
http://www.dandywarhols.com
Mail me for info about the mailing list
Dandy's Rule!

"....too many idiot's...not enough comets...."
***********************************************


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun  9 19:12:49 1997
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Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:37:27 -0700
From: "Henry W. Miller" <henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
CC: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov
Message-ID: <009B587B.E168D05C.15@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
Subject: Misleading bounce message from AOL
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

	This is an interesting bounce message - is the username really 
unknown or is it a full mailbox?  (username changed to protect the 
innocent...)

-HWM

> From:	MX%"MAILER-DAEMON@aol.com"  "Mail Delivery Subsystem"  9-JUN-1997 10:26:01.10
> Subj:	Returned mail: User unknown

> The original message was received at Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:24:58 -0400 (EDT)
> from sacsa3.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.48]
> 
>     If your mail was returned due to a potentially misspelled AOL
> e-mail address, we may be able to assist you in finding the correct
> address.  Point your WWW browser at
> 
>         http://www.idot.aol.com/search/
> 
>    Here you will find instructions and a simple form to help you
> locate the email address you are looking for!
> 
> 
>     NOTE:  we cannot and will not divulge private information about
> members.  Please only use the search resource if you believe that you
> may have misspelled a member's e-mail address.
> 
> 	-AOL Postmaster
> 
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> <xxxxxx@AOL.COM>
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to jpin03.mail.aol.com.:
> >>> RCPT To:<xxxxxx@aol.com>
> <<< 550 xxxxxx mailbox full
> 550 <xxxxxx@AOL.COM>... User unknown
> 
>    ----- Original message follows -----
> 

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun  9 19:25:44 1997
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Message-ID: <19970609222228.WW20554@smoe.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:22:28 -0400
From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko)
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Misleading bounce message from AOL
References: <009B587B.E168D05C.15@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.59.1
Mime-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <009B587B.E168D05C.15@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>; from "Henry W. Miller" on Jun 9, 1997 16:37:27 -0700
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

Henry W. Miller writes:
> 	This is an interesting bounce message - is the username really 
> unknown or is it a full mailbox?  (username changed to protect the 
> innocent...)
> >    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> > ... while talking to jpin03.mail.aol.com.:
> > >>> RCPT To:<xxxxxx@aol.com>
> > <<< 550 xxxxxx mailbox full
> > 550 <xxxxxx@AOL.COM>... User unknown

AOL....Gotta love 'em.

heh.

-jeff

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 10 07:13:17 1997
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Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:06:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)" <help@quality.org>
Reply-To: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)" <help@quality.org>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Misleading bounce message from AOL
In-Reply-To: <009B587B.E168D05C.15@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
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It looks to me like "user unknown" is the operative here. If the user's
mailbox was full, the field following "Returned mail:" would read "mailbox
full".

Bill


On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Henry W. Miller wrote:

> 	This is an interesting bounce message - is the username really 
> unknown or is it a full mailbox?  (username changed to protect the 
> innocent...)
> 
> -HWM
> 
> > From:	MX%"MAILER-DAEMON@aol.com"  "Mail Delivery Subsystem"  9-JUN-1997 10:26:01.10
> > Subj:	Returned mail: User unknown
> 
> > The original message was received at Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:24:58 -0400 (EDT)
> > from sacsa3.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.48]
> > 
> >     If your mail was returned due to a potentially misspelled AOL
> > e-mail address, we may be able to assist you in finding the correct
> > address.  Point your WWW browser at
> > 
> >         http://www.idot.aol.com/search/
> > 
> >    Here you will find instructions and a simple form to help you
> > locate the email address you are looking for!
> > 
> > 
> >     NOTE:  we cannot and will not divulge private information about
> > members.  Please only use the search resource if you believe that you
> > may have misspelled a member's e-mail address.
> > 
> > 	-AOL Postmaster
> > 
> >    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> > <xxxxxx@AOL.COM>
> > 
> >    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> > ... while talking to jpin03.mail.aol.com.:
> > >>> RCPT To:<xxxxxx@aol.com>
> > <<< 550 xxxxxx mailbox full
> > 550 <xxxxxx@AOL.COM>... User unknown
> > 
> >    ----- Original message follows -----
> > 
> 



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 10 07:25:43 1997
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To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Misleading bounce message from AOL
From: Tim Bowden <tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org>
Message-ID: <Z4638D1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 97 07:00:46 PST
In-Reply-To: <19970609222228.WW20554@smoe.org>
Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community!
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) writes:

> Henry W. Miller writes:
> > 	This is an interesting bounce message - is the username really 
> > unknown or is it a full mailbox?  (username changed to protect the 
> > innocent...)
> > >    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> > > ... while talking to jpin03.mail.aol.com.:
> > > >>> RCPT To:<xxxxxx@aol.com>
> > > <<< 550 xxxxxx mailbox full
> > > 550 <xxxxxx@AOL.COM>... User unknown
> 
> AOL....Gotta love 'em.

By a weird coincidence, I have the same sequence in a failed-delivery
notice, yet from an outfit called Pipeline.  It happened two days
ago, and was the first I had seen.  Maybe there's a new version of
Sendmail out?  I would expect `550' to refer to one or the other,
but not both...

I personally have no specific problems with AOL, and in fact
have the highest praise for their diligence in maintaining their
mailing list roster.  I am surveyed every six months, and no
other organization I'm aware of does that.  I do notice that
when there is a failed delivery at AOL, apparently the whole
queue is held up, but I don't believe that's an AOL particular.



mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden)
Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)!
mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org
the command:  subscribe nerdnosh

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 10 08:41:45 1997
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Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:33:43 -0600 (MDT)
From: Gerald Oskoboiny <Gerald.Oskoboiny@ualberta.ca>
To: Mark Moore <mark@gleim.com>
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: mailer prog died with signal 13
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970602090529.007576bc@gleim.com>
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On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Mark Moore wrote:

> I keep getting "mailer prog died with signal 13", then
> "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo" errors in sendmail.  i just
> installed majordomo-www gateway scripts, but they are not being used yet.
> can anyone help me?

I encountered this error before when sendmail couldn't fork to do
majordomo stuff due to a per-user limit on the number of processes
that can be running concurrently. The solution was to get that limit
raised, but this could be something else, too; signal 13 just means
the pipe command failed, I think.

Gerald
p.s. Does anyone from GreatCircle read this list? Nobody seems to be
     answering list-managers-approval@ or postmaster@ mail.
-- 
Gerald Oskoboiny <gerald.oskoboiny@ualberta.ca>      Phone: +1 403 492 7698
Systems Analyst, Information Systems                   Fax: +1 403 492 7172
Office of the Registrar and Student Awards            University of Alberta
<URL:http://www.registrar.ualberta.ca/>       <URL:http://www.ualberta.ca/>


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 10 10:33:48 1997
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From: patrick glenn <pglenn@netel.net>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: bounce messages
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:00:25 +0100
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I have experienced this same message from AOL.  In our case it was
becase the MailBox really was full.


Patrick Glenn
pglenn@netel.net
954 776 9100
NeTeL, inc
Fort Lauderdale, FL  33324


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 10 18:27:27 1997
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Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 16:55:16 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199706102355.QAA00820@shellx.best.com>
From: Cyndi Norman <cnorman@best.com>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
CC: cnorman@shellx.best.com
Subject: Mangled outgoing mail
Reply-to: cnorman@best.com
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Someone who I know from my list and another we are both on is consistantly
sending mail that's very badly formatted.  It has odd line wrap and puts
equal signs at the end of many lines.  There are also a bunch of characters
that are unknown to ascii so they come out as garbage.

He's been experimenting with it to see if he can fix it but hasn't had any
luck.  If he puts hard linefeeds at the end of every (short) line, the wrap
problem is solved but the equal signs and the untranslated characters
remain.

I have seen this sort of thing before, but his is by far the worst.  I
can't even read his posts and I force myself to get through his private
email.  Occainaionally my own mail will get mangled in similar ways when
bounced back to me from a mailer demon.  One bounce mailer was Forte; I
didn't catch the name of the other one.

I use plain old UNIX mail (RMAIL via EMACS).  He uses the mailer that
compuserve makes.  

Any suggestions?  Is there a setting he can change?  Or is that mailer
beyond repair?

Thanks,
Cyndi

Here are some examples:

Example 1:

I don't have wide choices about the software since I am using the standar=
d
Compuserve package and it formats automatically.  The only on-screen choi=
ce
is to send the message as "reformattable" (so that it supposedly
reconfigures automatically to the incoming software's format) and "Send a=
s
Shown" where it should maintain the text exactly as it appears on my scre=
en
(but when I do that there are no line wraps, each paragraph will appear a=
s
one line on my screen and the same on an incoming screen - unless I put i=
n
manual character returns).

Example 2:

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D

Example 3:

I am formatting this manually and keeping
the lines short.

I can see that at a certain length something
was chopping off the last letter and =

inserting the =3D symbol and a return.  =

That must be absolutely infuriating to =

read.  However I can also see that some
of the lines which were chopped off
were considerably shorter than some =

which were not.  Weird !!!!!

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________
"There's nothing wrong with me.  Maybe there's                     Cyndi Norman
something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG)                   cnorman@best.com
__________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 10 22:01:24 1997
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To: cnorman@best.com
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Mangled outgoing mail
References: <199706102355.QAA00820@shellx.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
From: Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs@hpc.uh.edu>
Date: 10 Jun 1997 23:18:18 -0500
In-Reply-To: Cyndi Norman's message of Tue, 10 Jun 1997 16:55:16 -0700 (PDT)
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>>>>> "CN" == Cyndi Norman <cnorman@best.com> writes:

CN> Someone who I know from my list and another we are both on is
CN> consistantly sending mail that's very badly formatted.

Looks to me like it's just being converted to quoted-printable.  It's a
religious issue as to whether that's badly formatted, though it isn't
really readable.  We'd have to see the headers to know if this QP munging
was done properly (with proper adjustment of content-transfer-encoding),
but most things get it right these days.

It is not uncommon for an intermediate mail gateway to quoted-printablize a
message.  Most gateways think they can do this with impunity.  Whether or
not it is right, good, or legal is also a religious issue.  MIME-aware
software would make this invisible to you.  (Since you're already in Emacs,
why not try Gnus?  Gnus+TM handles MIME just fine.  TM might even work with
rmail.)

 - J<

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 10 22:07:26 1997
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Message-ID: <339E390F.673C@wasatch.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:35:11 -0700
From: "W. David Samuelsen" <dsam@wasatch.com>
Reply-To: "W. David Samuelsen" <dsam@wasatch.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Spamford Walllace at it today (10 June 1997)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Intercepted two fake addresses, one belonging to Spamford Wallace.

answerme.com is owned by him.

profitz.com is non-existent

Address header was not cloaked this time.

just this and incidentially this is what led to the demise of the Maiser
at Indiana University. It was home to more than 1,000 mailing lists
including private and closed list for the rural police. More than 1,000
of lists were of genealogical nature.
This apparently to be similiar to the one in California where a young
man was arrested for doing this with fake headers.
==================================================
Return-Path: 
              <internet@profitz.com>
      Received: 
              from unverified source
          Date: 
              Tue, 10 Jun 1997 15:24:58 -0400 (EDT)
         From: 
              internet@profitz.com
            To: 
              bizman@savetrees.com
       Subject: 
              Your email
       Reply-to: 
              internet@profitz.com
     Comments: 
              Authenticated sender is <internet@profitz.com>
      Received: 
              from profitz.com (profitz.com [000.000.000.000]) by
profitz.com (0.0.0./0.0.0.) with SMTP id
              AAA000000 for <internet@profitz.com>; Tue, 10 Jun 1997
19:37:34 -0500 (EST)
    Message-Id: 
              0000000000.AAA000@profitz.com
        X-UIDL: 
              38768929521614943931863663385842
        Status: 
X-Mozilla-Status: 
              0001
 Content-Length: 
              410


YOU ARE ONE EMAIL AWAY FROM THE BEST WAY TO EARN MONEY 
ON THE INTERNET!!!!

IT IS FAST, EASY,  AND VIRTUALLY HANDS-FREE.

Not a chain letter or get rich quick scheme. This is a  LEGITIMATE
OPPORTUNITY!! 
We pay YOU to advertise WORLDWIDE. Guaranteed residual income for a
year!!!
 

FOR  FREE INFORMATION  bizman@answerme.com

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 10 22:40:37 1997
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Message-ID: <339E3407.225F@postmodern.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:29:46 -0700
From: "Michael C. Berch" <mcb@postmodern.com>
Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com
Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA
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To: list-managers <list-managers@greatcircle.com>
Subject: Re: Mangled outgoing mail
References: <199706102355.QAA00820@shellx.best.com> <ufa67vlzsad.fsf@sina.hpc.uh.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Jason L Tibbitts III wrote:
> It is not uncommon for an intermediate mail gateway to quoted-printablize a
> message.  Most gateways think they can do this with impunity.  Whether or
> not it is right, good, or legal is also a religious issue.  MIME-aware
> software would make this invisible to you.  (Since you're already in Emacs,
> why not try Gnus?  Gnus+TM handles MIME just fine.  TM might even work with
> rmail.)

It seems that a very common problem is that the re-sending features of a
number of list management packages completely screw up MIME messages. 
They might have been fine when they left the author's site, or even
passed through its outgoing Internet mail gateway, but then they get
munged in the list remailer.  This seems to happen a lot with LISTSERV
lists.  

Any decent modern mail program should be able to deal with MIME
messages, including correctly rendering quoted-printable and HTML, but 
*only* if it can recognize it, and that means preserving the MIME
headers, which seems to be a problem.

-- 
Michael C. Berch
mcb@postmodern.com

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 11 04:26:16 1997
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To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Spamford Walllace at it today (10 June 1997)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 11 Jun 1997 01:00:32 PDT."
             <199706110800.BAA17224@honor.greatcircle.com> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:26:48 +0100
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From: Simon Lockhart <simonl@rd.bbc.co.uk>
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

>        X-UIDL: 
>              38768929521614943931863663385842

Is it just me, or does this header only exist on spam? I certainly see it 
on about 90% of the spam I receive.

Can we not just filter messages with that header in?

Simon
-- 
Simon Lockhart                      |   Tel: 01737 836676                
Computer Systems Engineer           |   Fax: 01737 836665                
BBC Research & Development          | Email: Simon.Lockhart@rd.bbc.co.uk 
Kingswood Warren, Tadworth, Surrey. |   URL: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 11 09:19:49 1997
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To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Mangled outgoing mail
From: Tim Bowden <tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org>
Message-ID: <5H558D1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 08:21:15 PST
In-Reply-To: <199706102355.QAA00820@shellx.best.com>
Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community!
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Cyndi Norman <cnorman@best.com> writes:

> Someone who I know from my list and another we are both on is consistantly
> sending mail that's very badly formatted.  It has odd line wrap and puts
> equal signs at the end of many lines.  There are also a bunch of characters
> that are unknown to ascii so they come out as garbage.

Ah, the ol' wordprocessor bugaboo.  Each night before the Nosh runs
I spend time in the hopper editing these cute little features.  I'll
bet your list member writes his copy in Word and pastes it into his
mailer.  The apostrophes come out as `=96's and the line breaks are
`='s.  Yes, yes, yes.  Every single night I see this.  But it's worth
it for me to bring in the stories, so I don't even complain.

The problem is invariably a non-ASCII character which looks good
on the printer but confuses the wires.  Comes from writing text
in a program designed with the printer in mind.  It's why I use
a vi clone for offline text, even though I have access to Word...

Tim


mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden)
Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)!
mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org
the command:  subscribe nerdnosh

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 11 10:13:06 1997
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Message-Id: <199706111644.KAA14990@kitsune.swcp.com>
Subject: Mangled outgoing mail
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:44:13 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Lazlo Nibble" <lazlo@swcp.com>
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*]
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> Example 1:
> 
> I don't have wide choices about the software since I am using the
> standard Compuserve package and it formats automatically.  The only
> on-screen choice is to send the message as "reformattable" (so that it
> supposedly reconfigures automatically to the incoming software's format)
> and "Send as Shown" where it should maintain the text exactly as it
> appears on my screen (but when I do that there are no line wraps, each
> paragraph will appear as one line on my screen and the same on an
> incoming screen - unless I put in manual character returns).

So the fellow acknowledges that his software *will* send his messages out
in a non-quoted-printable format, he just doesn't want to go to the trouble of
hitting the carriage return key every now and then?
This doesn't sound like a software problem to me . . .

FYI, for those folks using procmail, there's a very nice little recipe in the
procmailex man page that converts quoted-printable and base64 messages to
8bit.  My mailer (elm) does support MIME, but the only interface I'm aware of
is so clunky that I've just turned it off.

-- 
::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo)
::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 11 12:10:57 1997
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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:09:34 +0100 (BST)
From: Alan Thew <Alan.Thew@liverpool.ac.uk>
X-Sender: qq11@mail.liv.ac.uk
To: Tim Bowden <tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org>
cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Mangled outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <5H558D1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.93.970611200428.23733I-100000@mail.liv.ac.uk>
Organization: The University of Liverpool
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As far as I can tell, this person is using CompuServe software and is
being hit by CompuServe's "test it on the users" MIME gateway. This has
caused no end of problems, like the one mentioned to inbound and outbound
mail.

As has been pointed out, list softare which does not handle MIME correctly
(BTW Lsoft's LISTSERV 1.8c looks fine to me) just makes the problem worse.

--
Alan Thew                                       alan.thew@liverpool.ac.uk
Computing Services,University of Liverpool      Fax: +44 151 794-4442

On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Tim Bowden wrote:

> Cyndi Norman <cnorman@best.com> writes:
> 
> > Someone who I know from my list and another we are both on is consistantly
> > sending mail that's very badly formatted.  It has odd line wrap and puts
> > equal signs at the end of many lines.  There are also a bunch of characters
> > that are unknown to ascii so they come out as garbage.
> 
> Ah, the ol' wordprocessor bugaboo.  Each night before the Nosh runs
> I spend time in the hopper editing these cute little features.  I'll
> bet your list member writes his copy in Word and pastes it into his
> mailer.  The apostrophes come out as `=96's and the line breaks are
> `='s.  Yes, yes, yes.  Every single night I see this.  But it's worth
> it for me to bring in the stories, so I don't even complain.
> 
> The problem is invariably a non-ASCII character which looks good
> on the printer but confuses the wires.  Comes from writing text
> in a program designed with the printer in mind.  It's why I use
> a vi clone for offline text, even though I have access to Word...
> 
> Tim
> 
> 
> mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden)
> Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)!
> mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org
> the command:  subscribe nerdnosh
> 


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 11 12:26:30 1997
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	Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:16:38 +0300
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:16:38 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Marko Hotti <mhotti@lists.oulu.fi>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Posting to own lists? (Please followup to list-managers)
In-Reply-To: <339EEA75.5F00@intelenet.net>
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Since this is not a Majordomo spesific thread, I'm crossposting this to
list-managers mailing list.

On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Bob Myers wrote:

> However, it *is* easier to moderate discussions that get out of hand if
> the list admin is neutral.  I've regretted getting involved in heated
> discussions on some of my lists because I felt it compromised my ability
> to step in and cool things off.

I'm running a very busy mailing list (VOCALIST) where people very often
have very strict opinions about correct singing technique, interpretation
etc. Sometimes things just get out of hand and I have to get involved. I
have found that the most important thing is to keep your head. IMO it is
always better to give strict rules on the correct behaviour on a list AND
constantly REMIND people of these rules by sending a weekly administrative
posting or the list netiquette.

You can never please everyone - that's something that I learned when I
started this business. Don't hesitate to jump in the discussion but
remember to be objective and never give any public statements on someone's
behaviour or opinions. As the list owner you should send some private
notes to those who have apparently started the flame postings.

With regards, Marko

--
Marko Hotti <mhotti@lists.oulu.fi>          Tel: +358-(0)8-530-4268 (home)
Oulu University CSC / List Services         Tel: +358-(0)40-552-8415 (work)
Oulu * Finland                              http://www.lists.oulu.fi/



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Sat Jun 14 09:56:36 1997
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Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:46:53
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Reed Gleason <reedg@teleport.com>
Subject: undecipherable bounce?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

Can't figure this one out.  The bounce seems to come from the original
sender, I can't find a domain name, and "barro21", the bad address, isn't
on my subscriber list.  Here's an example:

*****
Return-Path: owner-goatslite@teleport.com
Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by
portia.teleport.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA29930 for
<owner-goatslite@teleport.com>; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:59:27 -0700 (PDT)
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for owner-goatslite%teleport.com@smtp1.ibm.net; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:58:53 GMT
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866260631.39700-1 Sat Jun 14 03:57:11 1997 CUT
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Jun 1997 20:56:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: tspjael@eohio.net
Received: from default ([207.40.111.36])
	by gable.eohio.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA15916;
	Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:03:22 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <33A25C8D.7A6D@eohio.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 04:55:41 -0400
Organization: Three Springs Dairy Goats
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-KIT  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Patricia Boyd Goatsrus@pipcom.com" <goatsrus@pipcom.com>
CC: goatsite <goatslite@teleport.com>
Subject: Mail Undeliverable: Failure Detected
References: <199706130223.WAA00067@pip1.pipcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-goatslite@teleport.com
Reply-To: tspjael@eohio.net
X-UIDL: 733afdd20493a8dd937e059a78958ac6

Could not send message to USER: barro21
Reason for Mail Failure below:


********************************************************

Message not Delivered.  Recipient's Mailbox Over Quota.

********************************************************

We have used ivomec pour on for a couple of years now.  We only use it
at clipping time if we see that the louse powder hasn't done its job. 
It is a fantastic delouser.  My vet also said that it doesn't get
internal parasites on goats, but is very effective on externals.
-- 
Three Springs Dairy Goats
Barb Hamric
Cadiz, Oh
Alpines & Lamanchas

******

I don't see any new subscribers from ibm.net, the only domain that seems to
be the likely sender.  Any ideas?  Thanks.

--
Reed Gleason; Reedg@teleport.com; Portland, OR.  503-283-1366
List"owner"(yeah, right) of goatslite@lists.teleport.com

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Sat Jun 14 10:26:36 1997
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	via sendmail with smtp
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	for <List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM>; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 10:17:06 -0700 (PDT)
	(Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #4 built 1997-Jan-19)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 10:17:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: kali <kali@europa.com>
To: Reed Gleason <reedg@teleport.com>
cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: undecipherable bounce?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970614084653.2eafc936@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970614101042.18258A-100000@thetics.europa.com>
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> Can't figure this one out.  The bounce seems to come from the original
> sender, I can't find a domain name, and "barro21", the bad address, isn't
> on my subscriber list.  Here's an example:
**
> 
> Could not send message to USER: barro21
> Reason for Mail Failure below:
> 
> 
> ********************************************************
> 
> Message not Delivered.  Recipient's Mailbox Over Quota.
> 
> ********************************************************

the only thing I can come up with is that maybe someone on here has an
aliased email and their "real" mail box is full. You wouldn't get the
bounce from the pseudo email because it is redirected to the real address
and any returned mail would have that domain involved, not the aliased
one. You could write the postmaster at ibm (good luck!) and find out if
indeed barro21@ibm.net has his an alias that is redirected to that box.

I could be completely wrong though :)

-kali
kali@europa.com


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Sat Jun 14 20:59:17 1997
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Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970611083051.007af4d0@165.113.1.22>
X-Copyright: Copyright (c) 1997 by Jack Hamilton
X-Sender: jfh@165.113.1.22
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:31:11 -0700
To: Simon Lockhart <simonl@rd.bbc.co.uk>
From: Jack Hamilton <jfh@alumni.stanford.org>
Subject: X-UIDL (was Re: Spamford Walllace at it today (10 June 1997))
Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
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At 10:26 AM 6/11/97 +0100, Simon Lockhart wrote:

>>        X-UIDL: 
>>              38768929521614943931863663385842
>
>Is it just me, or does this header only exist on spam? I certainly see it 
>on about 90% of the spam I receive.
>
>Can we not just filter messages with that header in?

No.  My outgoing messages sometimes contain that header, depending 
on what system or mail program I use, or perhaps on the phase of 
the moon.  

I received a piece of legitimate mail from someone at hotmail.com 
the other day.  They do have real users!  Perhaps only that one, 
though. 

Jack Hamilton  
jfh@alumni.stanford.org


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Sun Jun 15 17:39:26 1997
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Message-Id: <199706151800.LAA02453@mailhost.azstarnet.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <bish@pop.azstarnet.com>
From: "Bob Bish" <bish@azstarnet.com>
Organization: http://www.humvee.com
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 11:00:18 +0000
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> the only thing I can come up with is that maybe someone on here has an
> aliased email and their "real" mail box is full.

   This happened to me once and it took me 3 weeks to track it down.  I sent 
test messages to listmembers, 5 at a time, until I got one that bounced the 
same way.

...Bob


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Sun Jun 15 20:53:09 1997
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Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:44:02 -0400
From: "Eric E. or Sheryl E. Coe" <ecoe@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: ecoe@postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Organization: Family Account
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To: Jack Hamilton <jfh@alumni.stanford.org>
CC: Simon Lockhart <simonl@rd.bbc.co.uk>, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: HotMail Wires My Mom(s)
References: <3.0.32.19970611083051.007af4d0@165.113.1.22>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A8733242B7A"
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------A8733242B7A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I just started encouraging (begging) all my relatives that do not have
computers to use it, so organizing the family for something is less of a
pain. They can use it at their library.

Travelers, such as my retired mom and her twin sister "The Moms", use
it.  Businesspeople who bring along a laptop to branch offices only so
they can get e-mail can use this.  With JFAX, your faxes can reach you
too.

It was recently reviewed as one the best of the free sites by zdnet (I
think.)  My only personal experience with this was setting up my mom's
account, but I thought it was great, she gets her own address book, I
set up folders for her, subscribed her to a webzine...  I set up a
geocities web site for her, which forwards to hotmail, and Voila!
Wireless and Wired.

Capacity Test: Say hello to The Moms at
geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/2215

Not a salesperson for hotmail...

Sheryl


Jack Hamilton Wrote:
> 
> I received a piece of legitimate mail from someone at hotmail.com
> the other day.  They do have real users!  Perhaps only that one,
> though.
> 
> Jack Hamilton
> jfh@alumni.stanford.org

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<BR>Here are reviews of four new utilities for compressing, optimizing, and converting your Web page images.

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<BR><A HREF="../author/image/gifweb31.htm"><B>GifWeb, Version 3.1</B></A>
<BR>              -- Informatik Inc. 
<BR><A HREF="../author/image/sitespeed12.htm"><B>SiteSpeed, Version 1.2</B></A>
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<BR><A HREF="../author/image/asmallergif.htm"><B>A Smaller GIF</B></A>
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<BR><A HREF="../author/image/webgraphicsoptimizer2.htm"><B>WebGraphics Optimizer, Preview Version 2</B></A>
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From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 17 09:23:25 1997
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Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 12:10:22 -0400
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Daniel Henry <dhenry@info.usaid.gov>
Subject: Poll of list sfw in use out there
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I am using Listproc under UNIX,  and am considering moving to another package.

I would like to hear what everyone is using,  their good/bad experiences
with it, preferences, whatever.

Here's mine:
I'm using Listpro 8.0 (CREN) on SunOS 4.1.3.

My main complaints are that it's tough to do add/removes of users,  lists,
and particularly archives.  The giu program, IPL, is fairly usesless
because it crashes listproc whenever I connect with it.

I'll probably look at (gulp) NT solutions with GUIs since I would like to
do other planning, development, etc. rather than spend time grooming lists
via email commands.  If any of the UNIX solutions are moving to web
interfaces (as Netscape has done) for management, I'd be interested to hear
that as well.

Thanks,


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Daniel Henry       U.S. Agency for International Development
Ph: 703.875.1207   Internet Data Services
Fx: 703.875.1718   <dhenry@info.usaid.gov>

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 17 10:08:30 1997
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From: Jeff_Young@factset.com
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Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 12:57:26 -0400
Subject: Local Addresses
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Has anyone had to hack up the code for parsing return addresses?  When
local users try to get on mailing lists Majordomo gets mad about their
return addresses:

MAJORDOMO ABORT (mj_majordomo)!!
Majordomo@factset.com: Jeff_Young@LOCAL is not a valid return address.


This message from....

                  Jeff Young
                  jyoung@factset.com
                  203-863-7615
                  FactSet Research Systems




From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 17 10:38:33 1997
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Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
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From: Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs@hpc.uh.edu>
Date: 17 Jun 1997 12:26:28 -0500
In-Reply-To: Jeff_Young@factset.com's message of Tue, 17 Jun 1997 12:57:26 -0400
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>>>>> "JY" == Jeff Young <Jeff_Young@factset.com> writes:

JY> When local users try to get on mailing lists Majordomo gets mad about
JY> their return addresses:

Unqualified addresses are not good things to let on a mailing list.  The
check is really easy to take out of you must, but you're better off fixing
your MTA so that it doesn't leave the addresses unqualified.

And BTW, this is not a list for Majordomo questions.  Use
majordomo-users@greatcircle.com for that.

 - J<

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 17 11:08:46 1997
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Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:02:24 -0700
To: Daniel Henry <dhenry@info.usaid.gov>, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Dan Sugalski <sugalsd@stargate.lbcc.cc.or.us>
Subject: Re: Poll of list sfw in use out there
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Here's mine for the pot:

MX 4.2 on OpenVMS 6.2

It's only running a few smallish (~100 subscribers) low-volume lists, with
archiving and digesting. Never had even a hint of trouble from the system,
through multiple OS up and downgrades, and TCP/IP stack upgrades.

No GUI interface or anything, but the command line and e-mail tools are
simple and straightforward to use.

					Dan

----------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------
Dan Sugalski   (541) 917-4364           even samurai
Programmer/SysAdmin                     have teddy bears
Linn-Benton Community College           and even the teddy bears
sugalsd@stargate.lbcc.cc.or.us          get drunk

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 18 00:52:58 1997
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Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:45:56 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Marko Hotti <mhotti@lists.oulu.fi>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: A new AOL delivery error...?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970618103926.32227F-100000@lists.oulu.fi>
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Does anyone know what this means exactly??

The mail you sent could not be delivered to:
571 [name_removed]@aol.com will not accept this message

I have started getting these errors just recently. Does AOL provide its
customers with some new service where people may select the type of
messages they want to receive based on message headers? I tried to reach
this person using private email but the message bounced back.

/Marko
--
Marko Hotti <mhotti@lists.oulu.fi>          Tel: +358-(0)8-530-4268 (home)
Oulu University CSC / List Services         Tel: +358-(0)40-552-8415 (work)
Oulu * Finland                              http://www.lists.oulu.fi/



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 18 04:38:04 1997
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Message-ID: <Y0j9fAA4L6pzEw99@sleepy.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:57:28 +0000
To: Daniel Henry <dhenry@info.usaid.gov>
Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Peter Scales <peter@sleepy.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Poll of list sfw in use out there
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In message <3.0.1.32.19970617121022.00fd0ab0@gaia.info.usaid.gov>,
Daniel Henry <dhenry@info.usaid.gov> writes
>
>I'll probably look at (gulp) NT solutions with GUIs since I would like to
>do other planning, development, etc. rather than spend time grooming lists
>via email commands. 

You could do worse than look at NTMail/NTList, available from
www.ntmail.co.uk.  Support also available Stateside.  Not cheap but well
worth the money, in my opinion - we've used it since version 1 in 1995.
It is generally reckoned the best mail and list server available for NT
and recent magazine reviews (Windows NT Magazine??) bear this out.

-- 
     Pete
Peter Scales <peter@loud-n-clear.com> 
The Old Well House, Church Street, Prees, Shropshire  SY13 2DQ
+44 (0)701 0708 422

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 18 06:53:23 1997
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Date:     Wed, 18 Jun 97 9:48:14 EDT
From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer <info-labview-request@pica.army.mil>
To: Marko Hotti <mhotti@lists.oulu.fi>, list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject:  Re:  A new AOL delivery error...?
Organization:  SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ
Message-ID:  <9706180948.aa12019@fsm-1.pica.army.mil>
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Marko Hotti <mhotti@lists.oulu.fi>:
>Does anyone know what this means exactly??
>
>The mail you sent could not be delivered to:
>571 [name_removed]@aol.com will not accept this message
>
>I have started getting these errors just recently. Does AOL provide its
>customers with some new service where people may select the type of
>messages they want to receive based on message headers? I tried to reach
>this person using private email but the message bounced back.

Your guess is correct. AOL does have this function. I've run into it too,
only once. Unsub the user.
 
                  Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer
                      <info-labview-request@pica.army.mil>
          http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 18 07:03:07 1997
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I looked at ntMail, but found it too closely tied into the registry,
little comfort zone.  We use iMail in-house, and like it.  good GUI
interface, supports list servers, aliases, autoresponders.  very easy to
setup and maintain.  also includes a WEB monitor that any user can
connect to and change password, forwarding, vacation message, "finger
plan".



In message <3.0.1.32.19970617121022.00fd0ab0@gaia.info.usaid.gov>,
Daniel Henry <dhenry@info.usaid.gov> writes
>
>I'll probably look at (gulp) NT solutions with GUIs since I would like
to
>do other planning, development, etc. rather than spend time grooming
lists
>via email commands. 

You could do worse than look at NTMail/NTList, available from
www.ntmail.co.uk.  Support also available Stateside.  Not cheap but well
worth the money, in my opinion - we've used it since version 1 in 1995.
It is generally reckoned the best mail and list server available for NT
and recent magazine reviews (Windows NT Magazine??) bear this out.

-- 
     Pete
Peter Scales <peter@loud-n-clear.com> 
The Old Well House, Church Street, Prees, Shropshire  SY13 2DQ
+44 (0)701 0708 422


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 18 09:38:36 1997
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To: Marko Hotti <mhotti@lists.oulu.fi>
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: A new AOL delivery error...?
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970618103926.32227F-100000@lists.oulu.fi>
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From: Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs@hpc.uh.edu>
Date: 18 Jun 1997 11:35:30 -0500
In-Reply-To: Marko Hotti's message of Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:45:56 +0300 (EET DST)
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>>>>> "MH" == Marko Hotti <mhotti@lists.oulu.fi> writes:

MH> Does AOL provide its customers with some new service where people may
MH> select the type of messages they want to receive based on message
MH> headers?

It seems that they do.  The big problem is that they can ignore mail from
certain users and if that user posts to your mailing list, you get the
bounce message.  This is incredibly annoying because now I get bounces
depending on who posts to my lists.  I don't want to kick some of these
folks off because they contribute to my list, but AOL continuously sends me
bounces off of them because the person they have chosen to filter out is
also a frequent contributor.

What to do?  For the meantime, I'm just ignoring the bounces.  If I see a
user that is obviously rejecting every message from the list, I'll remove
them.

AOL sure knows how to make things painful for us.

 - J<

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 18 09:45:10 1997
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From: "Nathan J. Mehl" <nmehl@leftbank.com>
Message-Id: <199706181635.MAA00519@zax.leftbank.com>
Subject: Re: A new AOL delivery error...?
To: mhotti@lists.oulu.fi (Marko Hotti)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:35:47 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970618103926.32227F-100000@lists.oulu.fi> from "Marko Hotti" at Jun 18, 97 10:45:56 am
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In the immortal words of Marko Hotti:

> The mail you sent could not be delivered to:
> 571 [name_removed]@aol.com will not accept this message

> I have started getting these errors just recently. Does AOL provide its
> customers with some new service where people may select the type of
> messages they want to receive based on message headers? I tried to reach
> this person using private email but the message bounced back.

I believe that AOL's PreferredMail feature, in addition to blocking
mail from the usual roster of spam domains, allow AOL users to block
mail from domains or addresses of their choosing.

Impolite, but nothing that any procmail user hasn't been able to
do for years now. :)

-n

--
The life of a sysadmin is always intense!
Nathan J. Mehl   ---   The LeftBank Operation
nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com
A Global Internet Company.  http://www.gi.com

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 18 11:50:15 1997
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Subject: Re: A new AOL delivery error...?
References: <199706181635.MAA00519@zax.leftbank.com>
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From: Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs@hpc.uh.edu>
Date: 18 Jun 1997 13:44:17 -0500
In-Reply-To: "Nathan J. Mehl"'s message of Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:35:47 -0400 (EDT)
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>>>>> "NJM" == Nathan J Mehl <nmehl@leftbank.com> writes:

NJM> Impolite, but nothing that any procmail user hasn't been able to do
NJM> for years now. :)

Except that with procmail one usually siphons the mail off to /dev/null,
not send a pile of annoying bounces back to a poor list owner.

 - J<

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 18 11:57:58 1997
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Message-Id: <m0wePfW-002lshC@anago.wwa.com>
From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin)
Subject: Re: A new AOL delivery error...?
To: mhotti@lists.oulu.fi (Marko Hotti)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:41:22 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970618103926.32227F-100000@lists.oulu.fi> from "Marko Hotti" at Jun 18, 97 10:45:56 am
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Marko Hotti asked about this bounce explanation from AOL:

| The mail you sent could not be delivered to:
| 571 [name_removed]@aol.com will not accept this message

The first time I ran into it, it was for the list's autoresponse to a sub-
scription request from someone who had never been on the list.  David
O'Donnell explained that users can also block all mail from outside AOL as
a protection against spam.  The list's autoresponses to this person's queries
were always returned with that message; accordingly I could neither add her
nor tell her why not.  After a few tries she gave up.

Someone must have explained it to her, because a week later she tried again
and my list's autoresponse did not bounce.  I wrote to her personally and
asked her to quote back my message so that I'd know positively that she was
accepting the list's mail; she did, and then I added her.

However, to accept mail from the Internet at first, to receive some and know
what is out here, and then decide to reject my list or all Internet mail is
quite another story.  When an existing user generates a refusal, I unsub him
or her immediately. 

I don't share Jason Tibbits's tolerance for subscribers on AOL who send
refusal notices to the list manager when they choose to block out certain
other list contributors.  Nathan Mehl wrote that users of mail throwers have
been able to block out certain senders for years, and that's true, but we've
been able to block them out by silently dropping mail from them without
sending a bounce to someone else.

My feeling about not wanting to read articles from certain list members whom
you dislike is the same as my feeling about not wanting to read articles
about certain subtopics that bore you.  In the latter case it is your
responsibility to skip or delete such articles; it is unreasonable to demand
that the rest of the membership stop discussing the subject, that the main-
tainer reject articles about it, or that the maintainer filter them so that
you won't receive copies.  Likewise, if there are contributors whose posts
you don't want to read, it's your job to delete or skip their posts; it's not
their duty to stop posting, nor the maintainer's to reject their posts, nor
the maintainer's to see that their posts aren't sent to you.

If you belong to a mailing list and want not to read mail from certain
contributors to it, a refusal notice to the maintainer is wrong and a refusal
notice to the writer whose posts you don't like is also wrong.  Just delete
those articles silently, by daemon or by hand.

To be honest, I've never run into what Jason described.  Virtually all AOL
customers on my list are in digest mode, so the handful of refusals I've
received have indicated either blocking all Internet mail or specifically
blocking the list.  One wrote to ask to unsub at the same time; the list's
automated acknowledgment and my personal confirmation were both refused.  (I
sent the confirmation before receiving the refusal for the acknowledgment.  I
guess he didn't trust that I'd actually process his signoff; rather misan-
thropic of him, but no big deal, because he had at least said that he didn't
want the mail that he was refusing.)  The others said nothing, but just sud-
denly started refusing the list: there have been perhaps three.

Digest readers who generate refusal notices must of course be unsubscribed,
and there is no way to tell them (unless the list maintainer also has an AOL
account).  The two AOL addresses currently on my list in reflector mode have
never generated a refusal notice.

If digest-mode subscribers will find it easier to skip articles they don't
want to read if they switch to reflector mode, I'll be happy to change their
subscription format, but that's the extent of my assistance in protecting
them from what they don't want to read.

But I'd have to say that if an AOL customer on my list in reflector mode
started sending refusal notices to my -request address (or worse, to the
submission address) for mail from the list, I would not investigate it nor
meddle in his or her dispute with another list member; anyone who bothers me
with refusal notices for individual articles is history.


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 18 12:19:54 1997
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From: "Nathan J. Mehl" <nmehl@leftbank.com>
Message-Id: <199706181906.PAA03299@zax.leftbank.com>
Subject: Re: A new AOL delivery error...?
To: tibbs@hpc.uh.edu (Jason L Tibbitts III)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:06:06 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <ufa205zoiny.fsf@sina.hpc.uh.edu> from "Jason L Tibbitts III" at Jun 18, 97 01:44:17 pm
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In the immortal words of Jason L Tibbitts III:

> NJM> Impolite, but nothing that any procmail user hasn't been able to do
> NJM> for years now. :)

> Except that with procmail one usually siphons the mail off to /dev/null,
> not send a pile of annoying bounces back to a poor list owner.

Well, it's certainly _easier_ to do it that way, but I've seen
(and occasionally used) recipies to generate pseudo bounce messages
from procmail.

(And for my own purposes, irritating though it may be, I'd rather
get the bounce and remove the user than waste my processor and
bandwidth sending a steady stream of data to somebody else's
/dev/null...)

-n

--
The life of a sysadmin is always intense!
Nathan J. Mehl   ---   The LeftBank Operation
nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com
A Global Internet Company.  http://www.gi.com

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 18 12:35:06 1997
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From: ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
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 id <01IK80MG9COWA9OW0T@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM;
 Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:25:29 EDT
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:22:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: List of spam addresses?
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:44:17 -0500"
 <ufa205zoiny.fsf@sina.hpc.uh.edu>
To: Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs@hpc.uh.edu>
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
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I recall that from time to time one of the members of this list will post a
list of addresses that have been identified as bogus or spam generating ones.

I am not sure if I missed the last installment. Having received it in the past
has been helpful since I would add these to my ignored file and several times
the list stopped junk mail or otherwise stopped access to subscription of what
had been identified as problematic originators.

If there is a new list or version I would appreciate receiving it or seeing it
on this list.

Thanks much,

Andy


Andrew Davidhazy, andpph@rit.edu - for PhotoForum on the Internet

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 18 12:40:39 1997
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 by m14.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PAX14429; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:31:42 EDT
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: [List-Mgrs]: Cost/Performance Tradeoffs?
Message-ID: <19970618.124029.7375.0.Thom.List@juno.com>
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From: thom.list@juno.com (R. E. Thompson)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:31:42 EDT
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Thank you for your helpful responses to my first question, 
about appropriate software for a list with 20,000 message de-
liveries daily. That helped our committee focus down on what 
we need, so that we can re-query the providers within our 
budget range ($40 monthly maximum for at least 3 lists).

We'll now query providers on MLM software version, MTA, bounce 
& error handling, and their commitment to adding server capacity 
when servers get busy. Thank you for pointing out those factors.

(A couple of hours’ lag-time in message delivery is not as 
important for us as low cost.)

One more question, please. We found three providers in the 
$5/month per list range, and several around $25/month per list. 
(All using Majordomo.) What tradeoffs might we expect, 
between providers in those two budget ranges. 

If I were guessing, I might guess: 
*commitment to maintaining adequate server capacity as their 
 business grows
*the $5/month providers might use Majordomo out of the box, 
 while providers at $25/month upward invest $100,000 customiz-
 ing or rewriting Majordomo. But what practical difference might 
 such modifications make to our 650 list subscribers and 3 
 administrators, on 20,000 message deliveries daily?

If the lower-cost providers might suit us, this would allow us
to start additional sub-lists such as a beginners' list, which
would serve our group's mission well.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Tommi
---
R.E."Tommi" Thompson
Thom.List@juno.com
thom@qmail.com

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 18 14:05:07 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <citadel@citadel.net>
From: "Dr. Manion" <Dr.Manion@www6.clever.net>
Organization: Execu/Quest Legal Services (tm)
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:57:01 +0000
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Subject: Re: List of spam addresses?
Reply-to: CEO@citadel.net
References: "Your message dated Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:44:17 -0500" <ufa205zoiny.fsf@sina.hpc.uh.edu>
In-reply-to: <01IK812BGRS6A9OW0T@ritvax.isc.rit.edu>
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Here's my list, I'm sure others can add to it.

Leonard

ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu insightfully and with much thought wrote:

> I recall that from time to time one of the members of this list will
> post a list of addresses that have been identified as bogus or spam
> generating ones.
> 
savetrees.com
moneyworld.com
interramp.com
dm1.com
zygon.com
zygn.com
stockpick.com
netamerica1.com
selfhelpnet.com
helpnet.net
buytime.com
jackpots.com
cyberpromo.com
californiakid.com
lsat.com
megd.com
pwrnet.com
bulk-e-mail.com
bigprofits.com
bbbiiizzz.com
owlsnest.com
natureplus.com   
owlsnest.com
natureplus.com
globalfn.com
mail-response.com
e-offers.com
hotmail.com
lcgm.com
oakcircle.com
1-500-fingers.com
1stamend.com
1stfortune.com
99main.com
a.cfriends.com
abel.telalink.net
adbenterprises.com
aestiva.com
agis.com
agis.net
aiwpgolc.com
akula.com
alberta.sallynet.com
allvip.com
amateurknight.com
amateurnude.com
amazona.aestiva.com
androtec.com
anotherdomain.com
answerme.com
anus.com
arcturus.net
aseere-systems.com
asiannude.com
atlantic.net
atlga.com
attorneycrawford.com
audioforum.com
autoresp-virtual.com
azlink.com
aztecind.com
babchurch.org
babeview.com
bah2.themall.net
bauhinia.singnet.com.sg
bayserve.net
bbbiiizzz.com
bealeader.com
bbbiiizzz.com
bealeader.com
beesbordello.com
begin.cyberpromo.nets
betterways.net
bhoman.com
bigfoot.com
bighotdeals.com
bigprofit.com
bizadvise.com
bizimage.com
biztalk.com
bluediamondu.com
bowecay.com
bridge-technologies.com
brobro.com
bu1kemai1.com
bulkads.com
bulkinquiries.com
bulkinternet.com
bulkmagnet.com
bulkmail.net
bulkpower.com
bulkreadit.com
bulkresponses.com
bulkseeit.com
bulksendit.com
businesslink.net
bvbotanicals.com
c-s-consulting.com
californiakid.com
campram.com
capella.net
careernetonline.com
ccsplprod.com
centurycigar.com
cfriends.com
cheapcalls.com
checkitout.ca
clanorchids.com
classifiednet.com
clubdiscount.com
cmn.net
cocktails-n-dreams.com
codecracker.com
comp-sol.com
compu.net
conestogasupply.com
connectnet.net
consolidatedmold.com
continua.com
crown.net
CurrencyOne.com
cvcom.com
cvcom.net
cyber-broadcasting.com
cyber-l-i-1.com
cyber-mail.com
cyber-o-0-o.com
cyber-promo.com
cyber-s-i-q.com
cyber-t-p-l.com
cyberemag.com
cyberout.com
cyberout96.com
cyberpromo.com
cyberpromotions.com
cybersexbrothel.com
cyberstreet.com
cybersyst.com
cybertimes.org
cyberzone.net
d3vdo.com
dancris.com
datagoldsystems.com
daviscomputers.com
degree.com
delphy.com
desen.com
divcomm.com
dm1.com
dodo.crown.net
doitnow.com
dreamon.com
dstrahan.com
earthfriends.com
earthlink.net
earthstar.com
easywave.com
econopromo.com
eden.mindport.net
eggo.livecenterfold.com
electro-mail.com
emai12u.com
emai1srus.com
email2u.com
email2you.com
emailpromo.com
emailsrus.com
emaster.com
end.cyberpromo.nets
enterprise.net
equishare.com
extractor.com
fatalblindness.com
feir.com
ffinternet.com
fight4rights.com
filmworks.com
findsuccess.com
flash.net.remove
flinet.com
foamworks.com
fordandassoc.com
fpausa.com
free-speach.net
freeconnect.com
freeview.com
frmug.org
fullmkt.com
fuse.net
gcproductions.com
genasys-mechanical.com
geo.net
georgewalther.com
georgewalthers.com
getback.hartley.on.ca
gifcenter.com
glass.com
global.net
global-merchants.com
globaltech2000.com
gohomeray.com
golfballsunlimitedusa.com
good-earth.com
goodnet.com
growthfunding.com
grphcimgs.com
gtwinc.com
headsup.hubbsent.com
heracles.kosone.com
hereyougo.com
herring.com
hlc.com
hlc.net
holonet.net
homearts.com
homebasebusiness.com
homebiz.com
honeys.com
hotgrrls.com
hotmail.com
hottstuff.com
hotwired.com
html-help.com
hubbsent.com
huxtableassociates.com
hway.net
ibb.com
icanect.net
iconnet.com
imago.net
imc3.com
inetcareers.com
infotextinc.com
insideconnect.com
intercall.com
internetfree.com
internetmedia.com
interramp.com
iq-internet.com
iq-mcp.iquest.net
isp-inter.net
ispam.com
ispam.net
it.earthlink.net
itol.com
jax-inter.net
jcpromotions.com
jetcafe.org
jobshopstaffing.com
jointhenetwork.com
accesspointinc.com


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 18 14:20:08 1997
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Date:     Wed, 18 Jun 97 17:19:12 EDT
From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer <info-labview-request@pica.army.mil>
To: CEO@citadel.net, list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject:  Re:  List of spam addresses?
Organization:  SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ
Message-ID:  <9706181719.aa16031@fsm-1.pica.army.mil>
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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CEO@citadel.net:
>Here's my list, I'm sure others can add to it.
>
>Leonard

Some of this is out of date.

>interramp.com

Legit site.

>hotmail.com

Legit site.

>doitnow.com

Legit site.

>earthlink.net

Legit.

>hotmail.com

Legit. (repeat)

>interramp.com

Legit. (repeat)

>it.earthlink.net

Legit. (repeat)
 
                  Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer
                      <info-labview-request@pica.army.mil>
          http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 18 16:20:21 1997
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From: "CBM WORLD CONNECTION" <CBMWORLD@TCD.NET>
To: "David W. Tamkin" <dattier@wwa.com>, "Marko Hotti" <mhotti@lists.oulu.fi>
Cc: <list-managers@GreatCircle.COM>
Subject: Re: A new AOL delivery error...?
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:43:28 -0600
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When I saw so many complaints about AOL a few months ago, I was so happy
that I was using Compuserve.  My average Compuserve bill was around
$40~50/month.  Now I'm using a local ISP for just $10/month (all you can
eat)! Here is my conclusion:  AOL, Compuserve, Pro... should go to hell! 
The only advantage you get is a local access phone # when you travel. If
you don't travel much, go find another local ISP!

AOL, Compuserve, ... charge you when you read news, when you get a stock
quote..... You can get all these services FAST & FREE on many web sites
such as CNNFN.COM and many others (http://www.cbmworld.com/starlink.htm). 
PLUS when you download a large MB file, it takes hours and sometimes you
get disconnected in the middle of the process.  Local ISPs are at least
100~1000 times fast!

AOL, Compuserve, Pro... are for those who don't know how to use the
Internet!

Jianliang Li
Work 2~3 hours a week, earn $100~$10,000/month
Sounds interesting? For details, visit:
http://www.cbmworld.com/fci.htm
 



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 18 16:34:54 1997
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Message-Id: <m0weUAV-002lsoC@anago.wwa.com>
From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin)
Subject: Re: A new AOL delivery error...?
To: nmehl@leftbank.com (Nathan J. Mehl)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:29:39 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com
In-Reply-To: <199706181906.PAA03299@zax.leftbank.com> from "Nathan J. Mehl" at Jun 18, 97 03:06:06 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
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When Nathan Mehl posted,

| > > Impolite, but nothing that any procmail user hasn't been able to do
| > > for years now. :)

Jason Tibbits responded,

| > Except that with procmail one usually siphons the mail off to /dev/null,
| > not send a pile of annoying bounces back to a poor list owner.

And Nathan followed up,

| Well, it's certainly _easier_ to do it that way, but I've seen
| (and occasionally used) recipies to generate pseudo bounce messages
| from procmail.

Ah, but there still is a difference: procmail users are cautioned to put
autoresponse recipes *after* those that handle incoming mail from lists to
which one has subscribed.  I have no objection to an "I will not accept any
mail from you" autoresponse when someone you dislike addresses mail to you
personally, but I do strongly object to sending one when such a person posts
to a mailing list to which you both belong.

When such misbegotten refusal notes are sent to the list maintainer or to the
list, then it becomes a topic for list-managers, though sending them to the
poster is also a bad idea.

Nathan continued,

| (And for my own purposes, irritating though it may be, I'd rather
| get the bounce and remove the user than waste my processor and
| bandwidth sending a steady stream of data to somebody else's /dev/null...)

Every list has members who ignore or delete virtually every article because
they're only slightly interested in the topic or because they're interested
in only one or two facets of it.  And yes, every list has members who delete
every article because they have completely lost interest but don't get around
to unsubscribing.  It would be nice if those in the latter group spoke up and
unsubbed, but we'll go on sending steady streams of data to their /dev/null
indefinitely.


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 18 18:19:59 1997
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Message-ID: <33A89452.78C3@wasatch.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:07:14 -0700
From: "W. David Samuelsen" <dsam@wasatch.com>
Reply-To: "W. David Samuelsen" <dsam@wasatch.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U)
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To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: More spam address!
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Add this one, nexexpedite.com (one of forwarding addresses by Spamford
Wallace) Intercepted it this morning.

Hotmail.com???? It is a bonafide and legimate one. They make efforts to
oust anyone trying to use theirs for spams.

W. David Samuelsen

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Thu Jun 19 06:50:22 1997
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From: "Dr. Manion" <CEO@Citadel.Net>
Organization: Execu/Quest Legal Services (tm)
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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:39:23 +0000
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Subject: Re: More spam address!
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W. David Samuelsen insightfully and with much thought wrote:
> Hotmail.com???? It is a bonafide and legimate one. They make efforts
> to oust anyone trying to use theirs for spams.
> 
> W. David Samuelsen
> 

Thanks for the new address. You may be right by hotmail, however, 
I've been seeing so many of them lately I had to start filtering them 
out. Here's an example of just one I received this morning which my 
mailbots are being inundated with.

Leonard.

Return-Path: home__biz@hotmail.com
Received: from f2.hotmail.com (F2.hotmail.com [207.82.250.13]) by
www6.clever.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA06798 for
<MLMTapes@Citadel.Net>; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:44:27 -0400 (EDT)
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SAA27426; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id:
<199706190135.SAA27426@f2.hotmail.com> Received: from 208.9.136.201 by
www.hotmail.com with HTTP;
 Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:35:16 PDT
X-Originating-IP: [208.9.136.201]
From: "Free BIZZ" <home__biz@hotmail.com>
To: home__biz@hotmail.com
Subject: "FREE" LEADS SOFTWARE
Content-Type: text/plain
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:35:16 PDT
X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0

I WILL PAY YOUR WAY*
into your own home based business!

LIMITED TIME OFFER - FREE SOFTWARE PROGRAM
---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Fri Jun 20 06:05:13 1997
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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:01:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Fuzzy <fuzzy@ns.asarian.org>
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: spam addresses list
In-Reply-To: <199706200800.BAA14898@honor.greatcircle.com>
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> 
> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 17:19:12 EDT
> From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer <info-labview-request@pica.army.mil>
> Subject: Re:  List of spam addresses?
> 
> >it.earthlink.net
> 

we see spam relayed thru *.it.earthlink.net all the time and we have
sent numerous complaints to earthlink about it. all we've seen back
was an autoreply. we even tried calling them, no luck there either. 

				Fuz



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Fri Jun 20 12:20:20 1997
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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:16:36 +0100 (BST)
From: Alan Thew <Alan.Thew@liverpool.ac.uk>
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To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: A new AOL delivery error...? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.93.970620201621.22404E-100000@mail.liv.ac.uk>
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fyi....

--
Alan Thew                                       alan.thew@liverpool.ac.uk
Computing Services,University of Liverpool      Fax: +44 151 794-4442

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 18 Jun 1997 11:35:30 -0500
From: Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs@hpc.uh.edu>
To: Marko Hotti <mhotti@lists.oulu.fi>
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: A new AOL delivery error...?

>>>>> "MH" == Marko Hotti <mhotti@lists.oulu.fi> writes:

MH> Does AOL provide its customers with some new service where people may
MH> select the type of messages they want to receive based on message
MH> headers?

It seems that they do.  The big problem is that they can ignore mail from
certain users and if that user posts to your mailing list, you get the
bounce message.  This is incredibly annoying because now I get bounces
depending on who posts to my lists.  I don't want to kick some of these
folks off because they contribute to my list, but AOL continuously sends me
bounces off of them because the person they have chosen to filter out is
also a frequent contributor.

What to do?  For the meantime, I'm just ignoring the bounces.  If I see a
user that is obviously rejecting every message from the list, I'll remove
them.

AOL sure knows how to make things painful for us.

 - J<


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Fri Jun 20 19:50:02 1997
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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:44:21 -0700
From: "Henry W. Miller" <henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
CC: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov
Message-ID: <009B613A.CFFE33DA.23@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
Subject: Yet another cryptic AOL bounce...
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
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	Named changed to protect the innocent.  Why is AOL's mailer 
returning a permanent error code, but it's inline comments suggest that 
it's a temporary error?  Happy full moon.

The mail you sent could not be delivered to:
550 luser1@aol.com is temporarily unavailable
550 luser2@aol.com is temporarily unavailable



-HWM

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Fri Jun 20 21:20:08 1997
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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:05:08 -0800
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: "Mark E. Taylor" <themet@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another cryptic AOL bounce...
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

At 7:44 PM -0700 6/20/97, Henry W. Miller wrote:
>Named changed to protect the innocent.  Why is AOL's mailer
>returning a permanent error code, but it's inline comments suggest
>that
>it's a temporary error?  Happy full moon.
>
>The mail you sent could not be delivered to:
>550 luser1@aol.com is temporarily unavailable

I got this as well.  I suspect that once again AOL is experiencing
some unique problems probably owing to the full moon





From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Fri Jun 20 21:50:06 1997
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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:39:28 -0700
From: "Henry W. Miller" <henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
To: themet@mindspring.com
CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov
Message-ID: <009B614A.E4D57CEA.6@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
Subject: Re: Yet another cryptic AOL bounce...
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

> From:	MX%"themet@mindspring.com"  "Mark E. Taylor" 20-JUN-1997 21:31:33.47
> Subj:	Re: Yet another cryptic AOL bounce...

Mark,

> At 7:44 PM -0700 6/20/97, Henry W. Miller wrote:
> >Named changed to protect the innocent.  Why is AOL's mailer
> >returning a permanent error code, but it's inline comments suggest
> >that
> >it's a temporary error?  Happy full moon.
> >
> >The mail you sent could not be delivered to:
> >550 luser1@aol.com is temporarily unavailable
> 
> I got this as well.  I suspect that once again AOL is experiencing
> some unique problems probably owing to the full moon
> 
> 
> 
> 


	And to think that we missed a full moon on Friday the 13th by 
only a week.  Actually, I received two different bounce messages, each 
for a pair of lusers.  I received three sets of these bounce messages, 
that last being late this afternoon, then nothing.  I have sent mail 
probes to all four of the lusers, and nothing has bounced back yet, but 
mail could be running sluggish.  In the first attempt to send mail to the 
four lusers, three of the messages ended up having delivery deferred.

	So, I'm ASSUMING that it was some sort of wierd, temporary 
problem.  However, the comment that it was a TEMPORARY error, sent with 
a PERMANENT error code, is alarming.

-HWM

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Sat Jun 21 15:36:49 1997
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Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 15:11:12 -0700
To: "Mark E. Taylor" <themet@mindspring.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another cryptic AOL bounce...
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

At 10:05 PM -0700 6/20/97, Mark E. Taylor wrote:

>I got this as well.  I suspect that once again AOL is experiencing
>some unique problems probably owing to the full moon

Or more likely the multi-hour power outage over in Washington DC....


--
         Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
                       <http://www.solutions.apple.com/>

 Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) <http://www.plaidworks.com/>
   (<http://www.plaidworks.com/hockey/> +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)




From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Sat Jun 21 15:39:47 1997
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Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 15:12:57 -0700
To: "Henry W. Miller" <henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>, themet@mindspring.com
From: Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another cryptic AOL bounce...
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

At 9:39 PM -0700 6/20/97, Henry W. Miller wrote:
>	So, I'm ASSUMING that it was some sort of wierd, temporary
>problem.  However, the comment that it was a TEMPORARY error, sent with
>a PERMANENT error code, is alarming.

No, under the circumstances taht makes sense. What they are saying is
that THIS mail is undeliverable, but with a warning that we shouldn't
take that as meaning the account is invalid.

There have been some power outages on the east coast. Uunet, I believe,
was affecte, and I think AOL was as well. If that's true and they're
still getting all of their systems back online and back to 100%, this
kind of error is perfectly reasonable.


--
         Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
                       <http://www.solutions.apple.com/>

 Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) <http://www.plaidworks.com/>
   (<http://www.plaidworks.com/hockey/> +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)




From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Sat Jun 21 18:20:03 1997
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Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 21:08:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)" <help@quality.org>
To: "Mark E. Taylor" <themet@mindspring.com>
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Yet another cryptic AOL bounce...
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afd1112d3a15@[38.28.36.73]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970621210728.11627F-100000@cyberq.quality.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Here's the reply I got from AOL's Postmaster, who's a friend of mine. He
had to go to the developer to get the answer.

----------------------- Forwarded Message ---------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:55:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Postmaster@aol.com
To: help@quality.org
Subject: Weird AOL message

The word from Olympus is that a Stratus module had crashed and the error
message was an emergency response.

--Dave

---------------------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------------

Regards.
Bill

=============================================================================
 Bill Casti, CQA                                     Email: help@quality.org
 - Domain Owner, QUALITY.ORG                         Pager: +1 800 604 6149
 - List Moderator, "TQM in Manufacturing and Service Industries"
 - Chairman, Electronic Media
    ASQC Section 0511 (Northern VA)     Section Email: E-media@quality.org
 - 1997-98 Chair-elect, Executive Board, ASQC Section 0511 
 - Senior Administrator, Internet Systems, Fed. Emergency Mgmt. Agency (FEMA)
 - North Point Director, Reston Citizens' Association Board, 1997-98          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Get Your New CyberQ Teeshirt now! See the Design at
               http://www.quality.org/html/teeshirts.html
=============================================================================




On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Mark E. Taylor wrote:

> At 7:44 PM -0700 6/20/97, Henry W. Miller wrote:
> >Named changed to protect the innocent.  Why is AOL's mailer
> >returning a permanent error code, but it's inline comments suggest
> >that
> >it's a temporary error?  Happy full moon.
> >
> >The mail you sent could not be delivered to:
> >550 luser1@aol.com is temporarily unavailable
> 
> I got this as well.  I suspect that once again AOL is experiencing
> some unique problems probably owing to the full moon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Sat Jun 21 19:05:04 1997
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 <009B613A.CFFE33DA.23@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:05:33 -0800
To: Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: "Mark E. Taylor" <themet@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another cryptic AOL bounce...
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

At 3:11 PM -0700 6/21/97, Chuq Von Rospach wrote:
>Or more likely the multi-hour power outage over in Washington DC....

Just found out about that power outage in the DC area.  Shut down
everything!

Mark



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun 23 07:51:22 1997
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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 10:26:34 EDT
From: awest@webster.m-w.com (Amy West)
Message-Id: <9706231426.AA12363@m-w.com>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: and what's more...
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

What adds to my confusion is that the subscription authorization & 
confirmation messages got to the recipient just fine. Although,
that mail probably had the user in the to: line.  

---Amy 

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun 23 08:05:41 1997
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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 10:23:28 EDT
From: awest@webster.m-w.com (Amy West)
Message-Id: <9706231423.AA12329@m-w.com>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: problem at receiving end
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

Has anyone else had this problem:

my listserver sends the mail out with to-line addressed to the mailing list
("mailing-list@whatever.com").

a sys admin has complained to me that this causes his system problems on
his end because he can't figure out who the intended recipient is unless
there's an X-header indicating that.

i have to admit that i'm not too sure what is causing the problem.
has anyone else dealt with a situation like this, and how?

---Amy West
Mail Admin

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun 23 08:50:48 1997
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Message-Id: <199706231539.JAA08212@kitsune.swcp.com>
Subject: problem at receiving end
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:39:30 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Lazlo Nibble" <lazlo@swcp.com>
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*]
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> my listserver sends the mail out with to-line addressed to the mailing list
> ("mailing-list@whatever.com").
> 
> a sys admin has complained to me that this causes his system problems on
> his end because he can't figure out who the intended recipient is unless
> there's an X-header indicating that.
> 
> i have to admit that i'm not too sure what is causing the problem.
> has anyone else dealt with a situation like this, and how?

It's not a "problem" except in that the sysadmin doesn't realize it's not a
"problem".  It's not clear why this person thinks they need to be able to
figure out who's getting a particular piece of email, unless there's some
kind of mystery bouncing going on, in which case they can contact you directly
to let you know to remove the user.

-- 
::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo)
::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun 23 10:40:36 1997
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Received: by opus.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM; 23 Jun 97 10:31:00 PDT
From: Bill.Houle@SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (Bill Houle)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:31:00 -0700
In-Reply-To: "Lazlo Nibble" <lazlo@swcp.com>
       problem at receiving end (Jun 23,  9:39am)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92)
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: problem at receiving end
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

On Jun 23,  9:39am, "Lazlo Nibble" wrote:
} > 
} > a sys admin has complained to me that this causes his system problems on
} > his end because he can't figure out who the intended recipient is unless
} > there's an X-header indicating that.
} 
} It's not a "problem" except in that the sysadmin doesn't realize it's not a
} "problem".  It's not clear why this person thinks they need to be able to
} figure out who's getting a particular piece of email, unless there's some
} kind of mystery bouncing going on, in which case they can contact you directly
} to let you know to remove the user.

There are some incredibly poorly designed mailers and gateways that
receive mail to a single mailbox and then forward based on tags
in the body or special headers (rather than the RFC821 envelope 
info). This sounds like one of them.

IMHO, the only thing with a "problem" is a forwarder built around
this technique. I would not consider the listserver broken and 
would even go so far as to not allow subscriptions from that address.
(They can cause other problems when messages start to bounce.)

--bill

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun 23 13:05:35 1997
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To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: and what's more...
From: Tim Bowden <tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org>
Message-ID: <w7NR9D3w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 12:33:43 PST
In-Reply-To: <9706231426.AA12363@m-w.com>
Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community!
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

awest@webster.m-w.com (Amy West) writes:

> What adds to my confusion is that the subscription authorization & 
> confirmation messages got to the recipient just fine. Although,
> that mail probably had the user in the to: line.  

Those with more knowledge (read: any) of sendmail or other features of
this mystical process please correct me, but I have been trying to figure
out why a sysadmin would need to know precisely which address the mail
is bound for.  To place it in an `X-To:' would not be practical, because
doesn't the delivery take place with one instance of the item and a
string of addresses in the execute file?  To stamp the address of
everyone on a mailing list would require a separate copy of every letter
from the list for each address, just to add the `X-To:' line.

The sysadmin could trap for the .x file to retrieve a list of everyone
onboard the mail is bound to.  Reminds me of something I've noticed...

When there is a delivery to a system like AOL, the theory is that the
whole queue is not held up when one address gives trouble.  Yet it seems
to me that happens all the time.  I see the bounce mail which shows me a
whole string of `timed out's.  Perhaps Amy's sysadmin is attempting a
more efficient delivery of mail directed to his outpost?  In other
words, he is taking on the responsibility of deciding who ain't at home
and who is, because Sendmail holds up everybody whenever there's a
snarl.

Or maybe none of this is valid.  But I usually learn something by
kicking it out here.

Tim


mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden)
Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)!
mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org
the command:  subscribe nerdnosh

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun 23 15:51:00 1997
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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 18:29:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)" <help@quality.org>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: A new AOL delivery error...? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970623182826.1412D-100000@cyberq.quality.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 13:44:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Postmaster@aol.com
To: help@quality.org
Subject: Re: A new AOL delivery error...? (fwd)

In a message dated 6/18/97 10:17:46 EST, you write:

> 571 [name_removed]@aol.com will not accept this message
>  
>  I have started getting these errors just recently. Does AOL provide its
>  customers with some new service where people may select the type of
>  messages they want to receive based on message headers? I tried to reach
>  this person using private email but the message bounced back.

That's part of Mail Controls -- members can specify addresses (and more) from
which they do not wish to receive mail. The SMTP error 571 is the response
one will get when sending mail to someone who has your address blocked.

--David


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 24 01:08:50 1997
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA01291 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:57:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from dulce.mic.dundee.ac.uk (dulce.mic.dundee.ac.uk [134.36.34.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id AAA01273 for <list-managers@greatcircle.com>; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:57:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from info.mic.dundee.ac.uk by dulce.mic.dundee.ac.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7)
	id NHM59VT6; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:55:28 +0100
Message-ID: <33AF7D6F.737B@mic.dundee.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:55:27 +0100
From: Andy C <acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk>
Reply-To: acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk
Organization: ACSD
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (WinNT; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: foundmoney.ocm
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

My list has just been hit by a bunch of subscribes from 
address at foundmoney.com.  I can't believe they are 
all intrested in the obscurities of forteana, are these a 
known spamming organisation ?  the address I have seen
are :

employment@foundmoney.com
media@foundmoney.com
president@foundmoney.com
success@foundmoney.com
support@foundmoney.com
inquiry@foundmoney.com
  

Ta
Andy C
acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 24 02:50:21 1997
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id CAA13675 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:46:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id CAA13584 for <list-managers@GreatCircle.COM>; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:45:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX F5.0) id 16; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:46:05 -0700
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:46:02 -0700
From: "Henry W. Miller" <henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
To: acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk
CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov
Message-ID: <009B63D1.37E2DE54.16@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
Subject: RE: foundmoney.ocm
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

> From:	MX%"acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk" 24-JUN-1997 01:17:40.65
> Subj:	foundmoney.ocm

Andy,

> My list has just been hit by a bunch of subscribes from 
> address at foundmoney.com.  I can't believe they are 
> all intrested in the obscurities of forteana, are these a 
> known spamming organisation ?  the address I have seen
> are :
> 
> employment@foundmoney.com
> media@foundmoney.com
> president@foundmoney.com
> success@foundmoney.com
> support@foundmoney.com
> inquiry@foundmoney.com
>   
> 
> Ta
> Andy C
> acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk


	Here is what the WHOIS database sez:

SACUSR>whois foundmoney.com
Found Money Inc. (FOUNDMONEY-DOM)
   315 Lakeshore Rd. East #204
   Toronto Ontario, L6J 1J3
   CA
 
   Domain Name: FOUNDMONEY.COM
 
   Administrative Contact:
      Palonek, Edward  (EP183)  edward@FOUNDMONEY.COM
      905-842-9598
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Hostmaster Role Account  (HRA6-ORG)  hostmaster@ECONNECT.CA
      416-368-2626 416-585-2242
Fax- 416-368-6689
   Billing Contact:
      Palonek, Edward  (EP183)  edward@FOUNDMONEY.COM
      905-842-9598
 
   Record last updated on 13-Aug-96.
   Record created on 18-Dec-95.
   Database last updated on 23-Jun-97 05:35:18 EDT.
 
   Domain servers in listed order:
 
   NS1.ECONNECT.CA              206.186.50.33
   ECON1.ECONNECT.NET           204.50.176.221
 
 
The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information
(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.


	I don't recognize them as a know source of SPAM, but one never 
knows.  Why don't you try contacting them and asking what is up?

-HWM

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 24 10:26:35 1997
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA04244 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:10:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pistons.cybercon.com (pistons.cybercon.com [199.217.156.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id KAA04186 for <list-managers@GreatCircle.COM>; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:10:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [207.172.192.128] (nyd-as3s28.erols.com [207.172.192.155])
	by pistons.cybercon.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12302
	for <list-managers@GreatCircle.COM>; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:08:58 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: erictarg@pop.cybercon.com
Message-Id: <v03102824afd5befe5b8c@[207.172.192.128]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:15:30 -0500
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Eric Targan <eric@groceries-online.com>
Subject: Software needed for large list
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk


   SOFTWARE NEEDED FOR LARGE LIST
   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

My apologies if this has been covered before, but I am new to the list.

We have been running a list of almost 30,000 names which has been growing
very quickly. We expect it to reach 100,000 in the Fall.

We have been using an ISP using majordomo 1.93 and the system is unable to
handle the load.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Eric

-------------------------------
Eric
JokeMaster
JOKE OF THE DAY.com
http://www.joke-of-the-day.com
"Keeping the World Laughing"



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 24 11:01:47 1997
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA06715 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:24:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id KAA06672 for <list-managers@GreatCircle.COM>; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:24:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99])
	by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA25556;
	Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:24:37 -0700
Message-Id: <v03102816afd5a9b531bc@[17.219.12.99]>
In-Reply-To: <009B63D1.37E2DE54.16@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:44:23 -0700
To: "Henry W. Miller" <henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>, acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk
From: Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com>
Subject: RE: foundmoney.ocm
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

>are these a
>> known spamming organisation ?  the address I have seen
>> are :
>>
>> employment@foundmoney.com
>> media@foundmoney.com
>> president@foundmoney.com
>> success@foundmoney.com
>> support@foundmoney.com
>> inquiry@foundmoney.com

>	I don't recognize them as a know source of SPAM, but one never
>knows.  Why don't you try contacting them and asking what is up?

That's not a spamming group, that's a group being spammed. They're
being attacked by a subscription attack. I'd suggest dropping all of
the addresses and locking out the domain.

chuq


--
         Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
                       <http://www.solutions.apple.com/>

 Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) <http://www.plaidworks.com/>
   (<http://www.plaidworks.com/hockey/> +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)




From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 24 11:51:55 1997
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA16630 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:35:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id LAA16602 for <list-managers@GreatCircle.COM>; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:34:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from kynn@localhost) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA13829; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:31:24 -0700
From: Kynn Bartlett <kynn@idyllmtn.com>
Message-Id: <199706241831.LAA13829@ayla.idyllmtn.com>
Subject: Re: Software needed for large list
To: eric@groceries-online.com (Eric Targan)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:31:24 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <v03102824afd5befe5b8c@[207.172.192.128]> from "Eric Targan" at Jun 24, 97 01:15:30 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24]
Content-Type: text
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

Eric wrote:
> My apologies if this has been covered before, but I am new to the list.
> We have been running a list of almost 30,000 names which has been growing
> very quickly. We expect it to reach 100,000 in the Fall.
> We have been using an ISP using majordomo 1.93 and the system is unable to
> handle the load.

In what way is it unable to handle the load?  What's failing, and
how?  Is it the majordomo software failing to add/remove people,
or the resend script parsing the messages, or the mail delivery
program (sendmail?) or the pipe to the net, or...?

--Kynn

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 24 15:06:25 1997
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA19115 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 14:36:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id OAA15074 for <list-managers@GreatCircle.COM>; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 14:12:53 -0700 (PDT)
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Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA11535; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:45:18 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:45:18 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199706242045.NAA11535@shell7.ba.best.com>
From: Cyndi Norman <cnorman@best.com>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
CC: cnorman@shell7.ba.best.com
Subject: More on MIME--how do you turn it off?
Reply-to: cnorman@best.com
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

Thank you for the many responses I recieved to my query about the strange
characters my subscriber was sending out.  It does indeed seem to be that
he is sending email with MIME/quotable-printable.  

But what's the fix?  He is willing to turn that "feature" off but can't
figure out how.  He is using Compuserve's mailer and just installed the
latest version (problem still exists).  I'm assuming it's some toggle that
is obvious to an experienced internet user, but whatever it is, he isn't
seeing it.  I've never even seen a Compuserve mailer so I've exghasted my
range of helpful hints by telling him to look for the words
"quotable-printable" or "MIME."  He has played with some MIME settings, but
to no avail.

Thanks again,
Cyndi

_______________________________________________________________________________
"There's nothing wrong with me.  Maybe there's                     Cyndi Norman
something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG)                   cnorman@best.com
__________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 24 15:20:39 1997
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA26275 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:06:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from brickbat9.mindspring.com (brickbat9.mindspring.com [207.69.200.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id PAA26097 for <list-managers@GreatCircle.COM>; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:05:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [38.12.200.237] (ip237.san-francisco7.ca.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.200.237])
	by brickbat9.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA20503
	for <list-managers@GreatCircle.COM>; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 18:06:33 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: themet@pop.mindspring.com
Message-Id: <v03102800afd60334c696@[38.12.200.237]>
In-Reply-To: <33AF7D6F.737B@mic.dundee.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:07:20 -0800
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: "Mark E. Taylor" <themet@mindspring.com>
Subject: Funny AOL Address
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

Here is one that popped up today:

Chamseli@America.Online.com




From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 24 16:20:34 1997
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA08511 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 16:10:30 -0700 (PDT)
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Received: by qiclab.scn.rain.com (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #1)
	id <m0wgeju-000USTC@qiclab.scn.rain.com>; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 16:11:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from damien.lbcc.cc.or.us(really [204.214.120.193]) by stargate.lbcc.cc.or.us
	via sendmail with smtp
	id <m0wgejq-000GlKC@stargate.lbcc.cc.or.us>
	for <list-managers@GreatCircle.COM>; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 16:11:06 -0700 (PDT)
	(Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #3 built 1996-Oct-12)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970624161430.0094ba10@stargate.lbcc.cc.or.us>
X-Sender: sugalsd@stargate.lbcc.cc.or.us
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 16:14:30 -0700
To: "Mark E. Taylor" <themet@mindspring.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Dan Sugalski <sugalsd@stargate.lbcc.cc.or.us>
Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afd60334c696@[38.12.200.237]>
References: <33AF7D6F.737B@mic.dundee.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

At 03:07 PM 6/24/97 -0800, Mark E. Taylor wrote:
>Here is one that popped up today:
>
>Chamseli@America.Online.com

That's no AOL address. Someone's registered the 'online.com' domain (the
whois info makes it look like CNET's done it or is handling the billing and
tech stuff at least), and has a machine named America.

Looks pretty deceptive to me. Bet someone gets a call from the suits...

					Dan

----------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------
Dan Sugalski   (541) 917-4364           even samurai
Programmer/SysAdmin                     have teddy bears
Linn-Benton Community College           and even the teddy bears
sugalsd@stargate.lbcc.cc.or.us          get drunk

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 24 17:06:15 1997
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA15382 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 16:45:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from panix4.panix.com (panix4.panix.com [198.7.0.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id QAA15344 for <List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM>; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 16:44:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [38.217.47.2] ([38.217.47.2]) by panix4.panix.com (8.8.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) with ESMTP id TAA24288; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:46:04 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <v03007828afd618b14c1e@[38.217.47.2]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:42:26 -0500
To: SPAM-L@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: "Kent S. Larsen II" <klarsen@panix.com>
Subject: Strange anti-spam? policy of lege.com
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

Does anyone know lege.com that can explain this policy? I assume the
relevant RFCs don't require a subject?

The message in question came from one of my mailing lists. It would be
inconvenient to identify the person on the list and then forward the
message to them with a subject.

Apologies to anyone on both list-managers and spam-l.

--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 23:01:58 +0200
Precedence: junk
X-Loop: nosubject@lege.com
From: No Subject Responder <nosubject@lege.com>
Subject: Your mail on some mailinglist had no Subject.
To: owner-mormon-index@lists1.panix.com

[sniped message sent without subject]

==========================================================================



Dear Net citizen,


			our site has received a mail lacking a Subject
line on one of the many mailinglists we subscribe to.

The policy at this site is to reject all correspondence without subject
lines out of hand. The one exception is personal mail.

Since we understand that the reason for your sending a mail without
subject may be one of the following, we offer advice for each of these
cases...


   *	If You are simply someone who doesn't know everything there
	is to know about emailers and the internet in general, then just
	re-send any mail/posts you have sent, but this time add a Subject
	line using this facility in your mail software.

	The rest of this message is not addressed to you. Live well!


   *	If you intended to subscribe to or unsubscribe from some mailing-
	list, then you have unfortunately sent your request to the members
	of the list instead of to the list software or maintainers. It is
	unlikely that you will be unsubscribed, but you have managed to
	irritate everyone else who subscribes.

	If you intend an unsubscribe:   Shame on you! You are supposed to
	save the original subscribe/unsubscribe instructions. Dig them up
	and follow them. You may also try sending mail to

			owner-xxxxxxx@dddd.dddd
	and
			xxxxxxx-owner@dddd.dddd
	and
			xxxxxxx-request@dddd.dddd,

	where you need to replace xxxxxxx@dddd.dddd with the actual
	address to the mailing-list. Put "unsubscribe" in the body (and
	why not in the Subject also) in those mails. Possibly you need to
	use "unsubscribe <Your_Email_Address>". This works for most lists,
	but not for all. As a last resort, read the mails in the list for
	any mail explaining the instructions. As a last straw, post a
	nicely worded post to the list asking for instructions from the
	other list members. Be polite! And don't forget the Subject line
	again, or you'll receive another one of these automated replies!


   *	If you are just too lazy to add a Subject line, then please be
	advised that lots of software either automatically deletes
	e-mail/news without a subject, or lowers its priority such that
	you'll see it much later if at all. And our site just refuse it!

	And on top of that, every time you post a mail without a Subject
	line on one of the mailinglists this site also receives, you will
	receive another one of these automated replies!

	Our advice in this case is: Don't bother pressing the send button.
	If you are not concerned with whether anyone reads your mail/post
	or not, then don't waste bandwidth sending it!


   *	If your imagination is too poor to allow you to select an original
	Subject line, use one of the below....

		I don't know what to say, but I write anyway...

		Not that it makes any difference, but...

		I don't have anything important to say...

		Don't read this!

		Sorry to intrude, but ...

		Ouups, I didn't intend to post...

		How do I unsubscribe from this list? I have tried!

		Confused.

		Happy.

		Worried.

		Please help me, have failed to unsubscribe from the list!



The Site Administrator for LEGE.COM

==========================================================================

--- end forwarded text



Kent S. "Kip" Larsen II; KLarsen@panix.com or KLarsen@NorthSouth.com (work).
Pass the SPAM ban! Ask your Congressperson to support CAUCE
http://www.cauce.org



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 24 17:20:59 1997
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA21071 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:14:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from tardis.Tymnet.COM (tardis.tymnet.com [131.146.3.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id RAA21063 for <list-managers@greatcircle.com>; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:14:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from jms@localhost)
	by tardis.Tymnet.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA24068
	for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:15:36 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:15:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Smith <jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM>
Message-Id: <199706250015.RAA24068@tardis.Tymnet.COM>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: problem at receiving end
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

> my listserver sends the mail out with to-line addressed to the mailing list
> ("mailing-list@whatever.com").

That is the way that most listservers work.

> a sys admin has complained to me that this causes his system problems on
> his end because he can't figure out who the intended recipient is unless
> there's an X-header indicating that.

Not true.  The intended recipient is specified as part of the envelope
information, not as a header inside the message.  When the message arrives
at the sys admin's machine, the recipient information in the envelope is
there and is quite unambiguous.  Therefore the problem must be with the
local delivery agent losing the envelope information before it puts the
message in the right person's inbox.

An example of software which loses information is one that allows mail to
"user1@foo.com" and "user2@foo.com" to be delivered to a single mailbox for
account "foo" at the ISP hosting the virtual domain for "foo.com".
In this case, the program that writes to the mailbox for user "foo" is
responsible for creating the X-header.

I know, I have this problem too.  Mail to jsmith@inwap.com and mail to
ssmith@inwap.com both get put into the mailbox for inwap@best.com and the
POP clients have a difficult time of demultiplexing the messages.  I consider
this to be a deficiency of sendmail - it does not create individual
X-recipient headers when a single e-mail message it delivered to multiple
recipients at the MX host.
	-Joe


> i have to admit that i'm not too sure what is causing the problem.
> has anyone else dealt with a situation like this, and how?
> 
> ---Amy West
> Mail Admin
> 

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 24 17:35:32 1997
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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:16:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)" <help@quality.org>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afd60334c696@[38.12.200.237]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970624201604.1241A-100000@cyberq.quality.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
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Here's the WHOIS. Apparently, they've named one of their servers
"america"....

CNET, Inc. (ONLINE22-DOM)
   150 Chestnut Street
   San Francisco, CA 94111
   USA

   Domain Name: ONLINE.COM

   Administrative Contact:
      Barzun, Matthew  (MB1611)  matthew@PCFINDER.COM
      (415) 395-7800
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Cnet, Hostmaster  (HC165)  hostmaster@CNET.COM
      (415) 395-7805 x569
   Billing Contact:
      Payable, Accounts  (AP297)  accounts-payable@CNET.COM
      (415) 395-7800

   Record last updated on 29-Jan-97.
   Record created on 29-Jan-97.
   Database last updated on 24-Jun-97 05:23:33 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS.CNET.COM			204.162.80.10
   KNOCK.SER.BBNPLANET.NET	192.239.16.129
   NIC.NEAR.NET			192.52.71.4


Regards.
Bill

=============================================================================
 Bill Casti, CQA                                     Email: help@quality.org
 - Domain Owner, QUALITY.ORG                         Pager: +1 800 604 6149
 - List Moderator, "TQM in Manufacturing and Service Industries"
 - Chairman, Electronic Media
    ASQC Section 0511 (Northern VA)     Section Email: E-media@quality.org
 - 1997-98 Chair-elect, Executive Board, ASQC Section 0511 
 - Senior Administrator, Internet Systems, Fed. Emergency Mgmt. Agency (FEMA)
 - North Point Director, Reston Citizens' Association Board, 1997-98          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Get Your New CyberQ Teeshirt now! See the Design at
               http://www.quality.org/html/teeshirts.html
=============================================================================



On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Mark E. Taylor wrote:

> Here is one that popped up today:
> 
> Chamseli@America.Online.com
> 
> 
> 
> 


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 24 17:51:00 1997
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Message-Id: <v03102802afd6287db08b@[38.28.36.94]>
In-Reply-To: 
 <Pine.LNX.3.95.970624191225.13654A-100000@kparker.nai.net>
References: <v03102800afd60334c696@[38.12.200.237]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:50:03 -0800
To: Ken Parker <admin@kparker.nai.net>
From: "Mark E. Taylor" <themet@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

At 7:29 PM -0400 6/24/97, Ken Parker wrote:

>P.S.	(It might be helpful to see the full headers
>	for the message this came in on...)

Regretfully I do not have them.  The attempted signup came from the
web page for my Titanic list where the person can enter an e-mail
address to sign-up .  The server then sends the request to me and I
send a confirmation message.  As a result roughly 98% of the fake
subscribe requests are stopped at the door.  So the only headers I
see are from the server to me.

The numbers of fake subscribe attempts has risen dramatically and is
causing me to rethink the wisdom of web page signups.

I have also gotten some weird ones from Mindspring.  Usually they
have tetsuao.mspring.net in the address which of course is fake



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 24 18:07:14 1997
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References: <33AF7D6F.737B@mic.dundee.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:20:31 -0700
To: "Mark E. Taylor" <themet@mindspring.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com>
Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

At 4:07 PM -0700 6/24/97, Mark E. Taylor wrote:
>Here is one that popped up today:
>
>Chamseli@America.Online.com

and it was either attached to a piece of spam, or sent by a newbie who
doesn't have a clue what their email address is...

I've seen stuff a lot like that before...


--
         Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
                       <http://www.solutions.apple.com/>

 Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) <http://www.plaidworks.com/>
   (<http://www.plaidworks.com/hockey/> +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)




From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 24 18:50:51 1997
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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 18:46:35 -0800
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: "Mark E. Taylor" <themet@mindspring.com>
Subject: User got cancelled!
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

My original posting about that AOL address got a bounce.  Looking at
this carefully I noticed that the Daemon responding was from Nancynet
which, if memory serves, is spam friendly.  This bounce appears to
have come out of nancynet and not Usa.  This is a most interesting
bounce indeed.

Return-Path: <>
Received: from maxine.nancynet.com ([205.199.4.3])
	by camel5.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA03218
	for <themet@mindspring.com>; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:01:16 -0400
(EDT)
Message-Id: <199706250101.VAA03218@camel5.mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:04:16 -1000
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@maxine.nancynet.com>
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
To: themet@mindspring.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="RAA02628.867207856/maxine.nancynet.com"

The original message was received at Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:04:10 -1000
from host-207-53-125-183.mia.bellsouth.net [207.53.125.183]

   ----- The following addresses had delivery problems -----
<rquayle@usa.net>  (unrecoverable error)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to mxpool01.netaddress.usa.net.:
>>> RCPT To:<rquayle@usa.net>
<<< 551 <rquayle@usa.net>... User cancelled for spamming
550 <rquayle@usa.net>... User unknown

   ----- Original message follows -----

Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:04:10 -1000
From: themet@mindspring.com
To: rquayle@usa.net
Subject: Funny AOL Address
Message-Id: <839162738923.79j9sjeg@mail.jluio.net>

Here is one that popped up today:

Chamseli@America.Online.com

-------

One wonders why someone would bother to send a forged bounce message.
Comments appreciated and welcome on this one.



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 24 18:54:53 1997
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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:29:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Parker <admin@kparker.nai.net>
Reply-To: Ken Parker <admin@kparker.nai.net>
To: "Mark E. Taylor" <themet@mindspring.com>
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afd60334c696@[38.12.200.237]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970624191225.13654A-100000@kparker.nai.net>
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Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

Mark,

On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Mark E. Taylor wrote:

> Here is one that popped up today:
> 
> Chamseli@America.Online.com

   Neither "nslookup" or "whois" finds this domain.

   However, "whois online.com" gives the following:

------------ <<  Start  >> ------------------------------

[rs.internic.net]
CNET, Inc. (ONLINE22-DOM)
   150 Chestnut Street
   San Francisco, CA 94111
   USA

   Domain Name: ONLINE.COM

   Administrative Contact:
      Barzun, Matthew  (MB1611)  matthew@PCFINDER.COM
      (415) 395-7800
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Cnet, Hostmaster  (HC165)  hostmaster@CNET.COM
      (415) 395-7805 x569
   Billing Contact:
      Payable, Accounts  (AP297)  accounts-payable@CNET.COM
      (415) 395-7800

   Record last updated on 29-Jan-97.
   Record created on 29-Jan-97.
   Database last updated on 24-Jun-97 05:23:33 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS.CNET.COM			204.162.80.10
   KNOCK.SER.BBNPLANET.NET	192.239.16.129
   NIC.NEAR.NET			192.52.71.4


The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information
(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

---------------   <<  End  >>  ---------------------------------

   Assuming this CAME from online.com (it could have been forged
from the get-go), this could be where someone "named" their 
machine (like I can with linux), regardless of what ip address
they came in on.  

   It's probably just as well that they don't have a NameServer
entry for "america.online.com" because AOL might have a case for
trademark infringement...

     Till later,

	Ken Parker (Fight SPAM:  http://www.cauce.org)

P.S.	(It might be helpful to see the full headers
	for the message this came in on...)


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Tue Jun 24 21:35:56 1997
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References: <v03102800afd60334c696@[38.12.200.237]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:39:54 -0700
To: Ken Parker <admin@kparker.nai.net>,
        "Mark E. Taylor" <themet@mindspring.com>
From: Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com>
Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

At 4:29 PM -0700 6/24/97, Ken Parker wrote:

>   Assuming this CAME from online.com (it could have been forged
>from the get-go), this could be where someone "named" their
>machine (like I can with linux), regardless of what ip address
>they came in on.

I'm amazed at everyone who looked this up with the NIC for the domain,
but didn't check to see if teh site existed before speculating...

---
plaidworks.com 1# nslookup
Default Server:  plaidworks.com
Address:  207.167.80.66

> set q=any
> america.online.com.
Server:  plaidworks.com
Address:  207.167.80.66

*** plaidworks.com can't find america.online.com.: Non-existent host/domain
>


---

the domain is legit, but the machine isn't. It's spam, or a badly
mauled AOL address, not some funky weirdness out of online.com....
Really.

(sometimes I think we get too smart for our own good... Looking up the
domain, but not checking the site?)


--
         Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
                       <http://www.solutions.apple.com/>

 Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) <http://www.plaidworks.com/>
   (<http://www.plaidworks.com/hockey/> +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)




From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 25 03:47:46 1997
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Message-Id: <v02140b02afd698c808a9@[194.66.172.10]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:43:41 +0100
To: Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com>,
        Ken Parker <admin@kparker.nai.net>,
        "Mark E. Taylor" <themet@mindspring.com>
From: James Berriman <james@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

At 04:39 25/6/97, Chuq Von Rospach wrote:

>(sometimes I think we get too smart for our own good... Looking up the
>domain, but not checking the site?)

I had a problem with a mail loop from a misconfigured NT mail server. The
name claimed by the server had no dns record, but the parent domain was
registered. They were on dialup with a dynamic ip address, their mail
handled by pipex.

As they had a domain registered they were using that convention internally
to name their machines. The server was using this internal representation
to identify itself to the outside world. It was also trying to deliver all
mailing list messages to the address in the To: header (i.e. straight back
to the list... yeuch!).

This, incidentally, was a major distributor of Mac clones and scanners ;-)

In the absence of any hard evidence either way, I'm prepared to consider
the possibility that there's a machine at online.com that *thinks* it's
called america.online.com...

( :-])  James



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 25 08:33:54 1997
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Message-Id: <m0wgtxQ-001yXmC@Alpha.NetUSA.Net>
From: rwarren@NetUSA.Net (Robert John Warren)
Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address
To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:26:08 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afd64321c0af@[207.167.80.70]> from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jun 24, 97 08:39:54 pm
X-Disclaimer: No permission is granted by the author for the retransmission of this article by any provider through or into a domain where it falls foul of any legal restriction or limitation.  By retransmitting this message resender accepts full liability for such action.
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

> I'm amazed at everyone who looked this up with the NIC for the domain,
> but didn't check to see if teh site existed before speculating...
> 
> ---
> plaidworks.com 1# nslookup
> Default Server:  plaidworks.com
> Address:  207.167.80.66
> 
> > set q=any
> > america.online.com.
> Server:  plaidworks.com
> Address:  207.167.80.66
> 
> *** plaidworks.com can't find america.online.com.: Non-existent host/domain
> >
> ---
> 
> the domain is legit, but the machine isn't. It's spam, or a badly
> mauled AOL address, not some funky weirdness out of online.com....
> Really.
> 
> (sometimes I think we get too smart for our own good... Looking up the
> domain, but not checking the site?)

Agreed!  But I try to get as much info as I can...
> ls -d online.com 
[ns.cnet.com]
 online.com.                    SOA   ns.cnet.com hostmaster.cnet.com. (1997062401 600 300 604800 300)
 online.com.                    NS    ns.cnet.com                   
 online.com.                    NS    knock.ser.bbnplanet.com       
 online.com.                    NS    nic.near.net                  
 online.com.                    A     204.162.80.25
 localhost                      A     127.0.0.1
 www                            A     204.162.80.25
 on1                            A     204.162.80.25
 online.com.                    SOA   ns.cnet.com hostmaster.cnet.com. (1997062401 600 300 604800 300)

-- 
RWarren@NetUSA.Net  Network Internet Services,Inc.(Network-USA)  516-543-0240-D
Robert John Warren   Vice-President, Systems & Network Manager   516-543-0234-V
http://WWW.NetUSA.Net/  Proudly serving the Internet since 1994  516-543-0274-F
Personal & Business Internet Solutions.   WWW Design & Hosting.   Leased lines.

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 25 12:18:10 1997
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Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX F5.0) id 22; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:12:30 -0700
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:12:27 -0700
From: "Henry W. Miller" <henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
CC: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov
Message-ID: <009B64E9.830AC8C4.22@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
Subject: Internic "purge" wrecking havoc with mail
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

	Has anyone else had a problem with mail addresses failing 
suddenly withing the past couple of days?  I've had to remove 
subscribers at about six domains withing the past couple of days.  These 
addresses have worked, in some cases, for years.  On each of these 
domains, when I do a WHOIS on the domain, the domain status is "ON 
HOLD".  Is the Internic doing another of their purges, or is their 
accounting screwed up again?

-HWM

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 25 21:02:53 1997
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Message-ID: <33B1D2ED.3338@wasatch.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 19:26:53 -0700
From: "W. David Samuelsen" <dsam@wasatch.com>
Reply-To: "W. David Samuelsen" <dsam@wasatch.com>
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To: "Henry W. Miller" <henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Internic "purge" wrecking havoc with mail
References: <009B64E9.830AC8C4.22@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
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Henry W. Miller wrote:
> 
>         Has anyone else had a problem with mail addresses failing
> suddenly withing the past couple of days?  I've had to remove
> subscribers at about six domains withing the past couple of days.  These
> addresses have worked, in some cases, for years.  On each of these
> domains, when I do a WHOIS on the domain, the domain status is "ON
> HOLD".  Is the Internic doing another of their purges, or is their
> accounting screwed up again?
> 
> -HWM

try screw up. They did to my organization's website without any notice
that the invoice was missing. I have been after Internic to get their
act together for last 1 month.

W. David Samuelsen



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Wed Jun 25 21:48:14 1997
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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 00:47:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)" <help@quality.org>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Internic "purge" wrecking havoc with mail
In-Reply-To: <009B64E9.830AC8C4.22@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
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They're "on hold" because they haven't paid their $50 annual invoice for
their domain registration. The NIC will cancel their registration if the
fee isn't paid. That's why they're bouncing now. "On hold" status comes
into effect after 60 days of no payment, after the invoice(s) have been
sent to the contacts listed in their NIC registration information. That's
why it's important to make sure that contact information is kept current.
If you don't get the bill because your info was outdated, you might lose
your domain. And, you'd have no legal recourse, since you were pre-warned
to keep your information current and you neglected to do so. Under the
law, that constitutes "abandonment" of the "property".

Bill


On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Henry W. Miller wrote:

> 	Has anyone else had a problem with mail addresses failing 
> suddenly withing the past couple of days?  I've had to remove 
> subscribers at about six domains withing the past couple of days.  These 
> addresses have worked, in some cases, for years.  On each of these 
> domains, when I do a WHOIS on the domain, the domain status is "ON 
> HOLD".  Is the Internic doing another of their purges, or is their 
> accounting screwed up again?
> 
> -HWM
> 


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Thu Jun 26 08:24:19 1997
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Date:     Thu, 26 Jun 97 10:50:24 EDT
From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer <info-labview-request@pica.army.mil>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com,
        "Henry W. Miller" <henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>
Subject:  Re:  Internic "purge" wrecking havoc with mail
Organization:  SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ
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Henry W. Miller <henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>:
>	Has anyone else had a problem with mail addresses failing 
>suddenly withing the past couple of days?  I've had to remove 
>subscribers at about six domains withing the past couple of days.  These 
>addresses have worked, in some cases, for years.  On each of these 
>domains, when I do a WHOIS on the domain, the domain status is "ON 
>HOLD".  Is the Internic doing another of their purges, or is their 
>accounting screwed up again?

Yes and yes. Best thing to do is hang loose for a couple of days. These
problems tend to be self-correcting.
 
                  Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer
                      <info-labview-request@pica.army.mil>
          http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html

From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Fri Jun 27 13:49:34 1997
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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 16:46:42 -0400
From: Anh.Ha@ussurg.com (Anh Ha)
Reply-To: Anh.Ha@ussurg.com
Organization: ussc
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To: Michael Duersch <mike@dns.ida.net>
Cc: major-users <majordomo-users@greatcircle.com>,
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Subject: Re: Error Using Majordomo
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Michael Duersch wrote:

> >I'm having the same problem!!, if you figure it out could you please
> let
> >me kno too...Thanks!!
>
> The problem seems to be, not a current version of PERL 5.001 and 5.000
>
> don't work right.  Everyone seems to recommend getting 5.004, but I
> haven't
> tried it yet.  Hope this works!

 Thanks for the info..
My perl version is 5.003, which I got the same errors.
Do I need to reinstall majordomo after I upgrade to perl 5.004????

TIA

--
Anh T. Ha
MIS US Surgical Corporation
(203) 834-5189
mailto:anh.ha@ussurg.com



From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Fri Jun 27 19:18:11 1997
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To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: "Linda B. Merims" <lbm@ici.net>
Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V6 #139
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Would the person who has an "in" with the AOL Postmaster please
find out what the current AOL problem is with delivering e-mail?

I've had nearly a dozen complaints from my AOL subscribers that
they have not received the daily Digest I send out for upwards of
three *days*!  Naturally, it is sent out priority "list."  Average
size is about 45KB.  There have been no bounce messages from AOL at
all.  My subscribers claim they are receiving other, smaller e-mail.
I have had no complaints for any other sites.

Linda B. Merims
MorganList Administrator
listmaster@morganlist.org
lbm@ici.net




From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Sat Jun 28 03:08:13 1997
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	  28 Jun 1997 11:56:18 +0200
Date: 28 Jun 1997 09:18:00 +0200
From: fe3a002@rrz.uni-hamburg.de (Andreas Koerber)
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
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Subject: A How-To on Practical Questions somewhere?
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Hello,

I am about to start a new mailing-list, together with some  
colleagues. We plan it to be moderated, so some questions on  
practical organization of work arise, esp. on how the  
moderation is organized best: e.g. do all "moderators" do  
get all "offered" texts from the mail server for  
acknowledgement and each one is free to acknowledge, or do  
we best take turns?

Is there a text on these questions, maybe with a focus on  
realization of solutions in majordomo somewhere??

Greetings

-- 
Andreas Koerber                              currently at private site:
Univ.Hamburg; FB Erz.wiss.; Inst. 8          Richard-Goedeke-Weg 12
Von-Melle-Park 8; D-20146 Hamburg            D-21035 Hamburg
Tel.: +49/(0)40/4123-3185                    Tel.: +49/(0)40/735 59 01
e-mail:koerber@erzi.erzwiss.uni-hamburg.de   A.KOERBER@ORPLID.shnet.org
PGP key via e-mail (subject "SEND PGPKEY") or public-key-server
EF31C645; Fingerpr.: 83 F0 4D 8B 03 D7 72 24  BD FF 75 ED 78 DA 2D 60


From owner-list-managers-outgoing  Mon Jun 30 20:05:04 1997
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Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:55:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)" <help@quality.org>
To: List Managers List <list-managers@GreatCircle.com>
Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V6 #139 (fwd)
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Here's the response from AOL's Postmaster....
Bill

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:07:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Postmaster@aol.com
To: help@quality.org
Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V6 #139 (fwd)

In a message dated 97-06-28 12:45:53 EDT, help@quality.org (Bill Casti, CQA
(System Administrator)) writes:

> I've had nearly a dozen complaints from my AOL subscribers that
>  they have not received the daily Digest I send out for upwards of
>  three *days*!  Naturally, it is sent out priority "list."  Average
>  size is about 45KB.  There have been no bounce messages from AOL at
>  all.  My subscribers claim they are receiving other, smaller e-mail.
>  I have had no complaints for any other sites.
>  
>  Linda B. Merims

Our mail system is under constant attack from spammers, who send millions of
pieces of mail towards AOL a day. While we arguably have the largest e-mail
system in the world, there are limits to its capacity and, particularly of
late, mail has been delayed.

Our operations people are well aware of the issue and they're doing
everything they can to alleviate the problem. Beyond that, I can't really say
anything more detailed without consulting with the PR department.

--Dave