From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jul 1 21:34:58 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA24611 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id VAA24596 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id VAA11389 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA23621; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:37:16 -0700 To: "Mark E. Taylor" , Ken Parker From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:50 PM -0700 6/24/97, Mark E. Taylor wrote: >The numbers of fake subscribe attempts has risen dramatically and is >causing me to rethink the wisdom of web page signups. Yup. I've decided to go back to a mailto, or something similar. not necessarily becuase of spam -- it's a factor, but subscription confirms will take care of that, too -- but because too many folks *can't type an email address in correctly* and web clients won't let me authenticate from their configuration. I'm at least going on the assumption that SOMEONE configured their mail client correctly for them, and do away with all of those @#$@#$@!#! typos. chuq chuq.plaidworks&com. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jul 1 21:48:45 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA24578 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id VAA24568 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id QAA06611 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 16:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2b1); Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:08:25 -0400 X-Sender: humour@humournet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <009B63D1.37E2DE54.16@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:00:36 -0400 To: acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk From: Vince Sabio Subject: RE: foundmoney.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 12:44 -0400 6/24/97, Chuq Von Rospach sent everyone: >>are these a >>> known spamming organisation ? the address I have seen >>> are : ::snip:: > >> I don't recognize them as a know source of SPAM, but one never >>knows. Why don't you try contacting them and asking what is up? > >That's not a spamming group, that's a group being spammed. They're >being attacked by a subscription attack. I'd suggest dropping all of >the addresses and locking out the domain. I posted Andy's question to the SPAM-L list; the response that I received (and expected) is that it's probably someone attempting a DOS attack against foundmoney.com as revenge for spamming. As he pointed out -- and as I have also noticed on my lists -- a lot of the DOS attacks we've been seeing are against known spammer addresses (many of which are Scamford Wallace's, though this one isn't). Nevertheless, Chuq's suggestion is right on target -- even when they are spammer addresses, I still add them into ListProc's .ignored file (or the list filter on the LISTSERV list), inasmuch as it might be tempting to just set them to NOPOST and leave them there until they start bouncing. ;-) __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio HumourNet: vince@humournet.com Stop internet spam/UCE! [Note new address: vince@humournet.com replaces wavelet@colossus.arl.mil] From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jul 1 21:57:07 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA27193 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id VAA27173 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id QAA06611 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 16:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2b1); Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:08:25 -0400 X-Sender: humour@humournet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <009B63D1.37E2DE54.16@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:00:36 -0400 To: acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk From: Vince Sabio Subject: RE: foundmoney.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 12:44 -0400 6/24/97, Chuq Von Rospach sent everyone: >>are these a >>> known spamming organisation ? the address I have seen >>> are : ::snip:: > >> I don't recognize them as a know source of SPAM, but one never >>knows. Why don't you try contacting them and asking what is up? > >That's not a spamming group, that's a group being spammed. They're >being attacked by a subscription attack. I'd suggest dropping all of >the addresses and locking out the domain. I posted Andy's question to the SPAM-L list; the response that I received (and expected) is that it's probably someone attempting a DOS attack against foundmoney.com as revenge for spamming. As he pointed out -- and as I have also noticed on my lists -- a lot of the DOS attacks we've been seeing are against known spammer addresses (many of which are Scamford Wallace's, though this one isn't). Nevertheless, Chuq's suggestion is right on target -- even when they are spammer addresses, I still add them into ListProc's .ignored file (or the list filter on the LISTSERV list), inasmuch as it might be tempting to just set them to NOPOST and leave them there until they start bouncing. ;-) __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio HumourNet: vince@humournet.com Stop internet spam/UCE! [Note new address: vince@humournet.com replaces wavelet@colossus.arl.mil] From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jul 1 22:04:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA04898 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id WAA04888 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu4.psi.com (uu4.psi.com [38.146.21.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id FAA27246 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 05:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uu4.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.940727-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA23247 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 97 08:37:02 -0400 Received: from spud.jsoft.com (spud.jsoft.com [192.168.128.20]) by eeyore.jsoft.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id HAA21717 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 07:11:42 -0500 Message-Id: <33B10A62.EA8E0039@jsoft.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 07:09:06 -0500 From: Gary Frederick Reply-To: gary.frederick@jsoft.com Organization: Jefferson Software X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; U) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: List Managers Subject: Mailing lists on Windows 95 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We just got several questions about mailing list software. One person wants to run a small mailing list, another a way to manage 50 or so people in a 'loop' on AOL. I am assuming both will be using Windows 95. What are their choices? Thanks, Gary From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jul 1 22:04:49 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA24592 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id VAA24582 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id QAA06738 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 16:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.arl.mil by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id QAA00373; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 16:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2b1); Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:08:31 -0400 X-Sender: humour@humournet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <33AF7D6F.737B@mic.dundee.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:07:43 -0400 To: "Mark E. Taylor" From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 19:07 -0400 6/24/97, Mark E. Taylor said: >Here is one that popped up today: > >Chamseli@America.Online.com Oh, *THIS* is just too amusing: >Whois: online.com >CNET, Inc. (ONLINE22-DOM) > 150 Chestnut Street > San Francisco, CA 94111 > USA > > Domain Name: ONLINE.COM > > Administrative Contact: > Barzun, Matthew (MB1611) matthew@PCFINDER.COM > (415) 395-7800 > Technical Contact, Zone Contact: > Cnet, Hostmaster (HC165) hostmaster@CNET.COM > (415) 395-7805 x569 > Billing Contact: > Payable, Accounts (AP297) accounts-payable@CNET.COM > (415) 395-7800 > > Record last updated on 29-Jan-97. > Record created on 29-Jan-97. > Database last updated on 24-Jun-97 05:23:33 EDT. > > Domain servers in listed order: > > NS.CNET.COM 204.162.80.10 > KNOCK.SER.BBNPLANET.NET 192.239.16.129 > NIC.NEAR.NET 192.52.71.4 Problem is, I was unable to find any MX records for either online.com or america.online.com -- and america.online.com has no DNS entry, so it's unresolvable. Thus, it looks as if the address is bogus. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio HumourNet: vince@humournet.com Stop internet spam/UCE! [Note new address: vince@humournet.com replaces wavelet@colossus.arl.mil] From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jul 1 22:40:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA05019 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id WAA05005 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu9.psi.com (uu9.psi.com [38.9.32.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id LAA26619 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dkmc.UUCP by uu9.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA18299 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 97 14:30:40 -0400 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 14:20:47 EDT From: bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown) Subject: Web Page Signups Message-Id: <9706251420.0.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Mark E. Taylor" wrote: [snip] >The numbers of fake subscribe attempts has risen dramatically and is >causing me to rethink the wisdom of web page signups. Truly! What I've done to keep the convenience of a web page signup, but cut through a lot of the junk, is to have the signup CGI script sent the subscriber e-mail with a From: line for my MLM (in my case, Majordomo, but his will work for others), a properly-formatted "subscribe" in the body, a -- .sig introducer, and some explanatory text. The text says, "to subscribe to list blah-blah-blah, just reply to this message and include the message in your reply. Remove any quoting characters. If you weren't trying to subscribe to blah-blah-blah, please delete this message without replying. If you need to correspond with a human, please send a message to owner- blah-blah-blah@..." This has worked very well. So far, no one has reported being unable to subscribe, and there are *no* phoney subscriptions. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Jul 1 22:49:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA10724 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.plaidworks.com (mail2.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id WAA10635 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by mail2.plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA20608; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:41:18 -0700 X-Sender: chuqui@mail2.plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <009B63D1.37E2DE54.16@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:38:10 -0700 To: Vince Sabio , acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: RE: foundmoney.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:00 PM -0700 6/24/97, Vince Sabio wrote: >Nevertheless, Chuq's suggestion is right on target -- even when they are >spammer addresses, I still add them into ListProc's .ignored file (or the >list filter on the LISTSERV list), inasmuch as it might be tempting to just >set them to NOPOST and leave them there until they start bouncing. ;-) This, of course, might only encourage them to add you and/or your site and/or your lists to their spam systems... Me, I just want them away from me. They're set up to ignore mail, and I don't want to give them possible access to my subscriber list addresses. If you leave them on the list, they can simply start scanning for the addresses of the folks posting to your lists... -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jul 2 05:43:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id EAA04179 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sportsurf.net (sportsurf.net [192.41.36.58]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id EAA04138 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.204.56.156] (sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156]) by sportsurf.net (8.8.5) id FAA17431; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 05:42:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199707021142.FAA17431@sportsurf.net> X-Authentication-Warning: sportsurf.net: Host sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156] claimed to be [192.204.56.156] Subject: Can we talk about Meta Lists? Date: Wed, 2 Jul 97 07:51:36 -0000 x-sender: mark@sportsurf.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Mark Rauterkus To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm looking for some other ideas about setting up Meta Lists -- something that might be called an ENHANCED Mirror List. All things about meta lists are fair game with this question. For example, and established list has a topic area that is too wide. I'd like to establish a sub-topic area with a new list. How are there ways to set-up the list policies where you only control the meta list part? For example2, an established list exists but is nearly dead with very little traffic. I'd like to establish a list on the same topic area. How can the new list jump into action and develop traffic and still mirror the older list? Thanks. -------------- Mark Rauterkus, Publisher, S.S.S. http://www.sportsurf.net mrauterkus@sportsurf.net -------------- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jul 2 17:07:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA08339 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id QAA08318 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA15486; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:58:52 -0700 X-Sender: chuqui@mail2.plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9707022106.AA17964@su1.in.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:48:29 -0700 To: amys@amys-answers.com, Chuq Von Rospach , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:09 PM -0700 7/2/97, Amy Stinson wrote: >> I'm at least going on the >> assumption that SOMEONE configured their mail client correctly for >> them, and do away with all of those @#$@#$@!#! typos. > >Boy Chuq, my experience is that that is a big assumption. Oh, yeah -- but if the mail program isn't set up right, there's NO hope... But it'll reduce the problems from what I'm seeing this way... Anyone for passing a test before being handed a browser? -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jul 2 17:51:03 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA11812 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (duticai.twi.tudelft.nl [130.161.159.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id RAA11805 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from winfave@localhost) by duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (8.8.6/8.8.6) id CAA01423; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 02:38:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: Alexander Verbraeck Message-Id: <199707030038.CAA01423@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> Subject: Re: List of spam addresses? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 02:38:55 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: tibbs@hpc.uh.edu, winfave@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl In-Reply-To: <01IK812BGRS6A9OW0T@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> from "owner-list-managers-outgoing@greatcircle.com" at Jun 18, 97 03:22:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I recall that from time to time one of the members of this list will post a > list of addresses that have been identified as bogus or spam generating ones. > > I am not sure if I missed the last installment. Having received it in the past > has been helpful since I would add these to my ignored file and several times > the list stopped junk mail or otherwise stopped access to subscription of what > had been identified as problematic originators. > > If there is a new list or version I would appreciate receiving it or seeing it > on this list. I posted the previous 'bogus subscriber' lists, as my mailing lists seem to be getting about 80% of the bogus subscriptions. Although the frequency is not that high anymore, about 1 or 2 per day still come in. In a number of cases, these are repeated addresses, to try to really hit the e-mail address (suppose you just managed to signoff from 1000 lists, and 1000 new subscriptions start to come in...). Here's the list of bogus ones I got since May 15. The number in front counts the number of attacks: 1 From: a32@mary-world.com 1 From: airlinerob@aol.com 2 From: alex5323@aol.com 2 From: andrewr@earthfriends.com 2 From: aoltech012@juno.com 1 From: ArtBraun49@aol.com 1 From: babas@mbox.vol.it 2 From: babas@tin.it 1 From: Bowdie@regulus.net 1 From: bruter@ix.netcom.com 4 From: charles1@netcom.com 3 From: charlie14@ix.netcom.com 1 From: CMJENTP@aol.com 2 From: cocytus@pacbell.net 1 From: debra@call4less.com 1 From: dynamarket@vaprnet.com 1 From: enigmagraphics@juno.com 1 From: gonzo@one.net 1 From: jane3838@aol.com 1 From: jbark87156@aol.com 2 From: jorge@mailloop.com 1 From: jvvandco@aol.com 1 From: kg@pacificnet.net 1 From: lneidig@prodigy.net 1 From: media_production@hotmail.com 2 From: naked@webpics.com 6 From: nemesis@aol.com 1 From: pansy@potters.com 1 From: patrick@shell.flinet.com 1 From: postmaster@planetnet.com 1 From: relonet@mwci.net 3 From: Ron.Hickman@unisys.com 1 From: R_Denterprises@hotmail.com 1 From: s540ltd@nwrain.com 1 From: sales@turn-key.com 4 From: scott.weiser@worldnet.att.net 1 From: soulsurfer@oro.net 3 From: stuffle@pcii.net 1 From: Sueve91@aol.com 1 From: t2bis@worldaccess.nl 1 From: theISP@blarg.net 4 From: tmshrsal@magicnet.net 1 From: ufta@genesisnetwork.net 5 From: user901165@aol.com 10 From: vam4946@megahertz.njit.edu 1 From: VIDEO01@sprynet.com 1 From: waters@halcyon.com 2 From: wstoler@aol.com Kind regards, Alexander Verbraeck ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr.ir. Alexander Verbraeck Delft University of Technology (TU Delft) School of Systems Engineering, Policy Analysis and Management (SEPA) Jaffalaan 5 P.O. Box 5015, 2600 GA Delft The Netherlands Tel: +31 15 2783805 Secr: +31 15 2788380 Fax: +31 15 2783429 e-mail: A.Verbraeck@sepa.tudelft.nl List manager BPR-L, DYNMOD-L http://www.sepa.tudelft.nl/~alexandv/ Chairman SCS European Council ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jul 2 21:19:36 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA20642 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wasatch.com (ns.wasatch.com [204.99.129.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id UAA20416 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (204.99.129.87) by mail.wasatch.com with smtp (Linux Smail3.2.0.92 #1) id m0wjd2u-000Sc1C; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 21:59:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <33BB31BA.2D1F@wasatch.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 21:59:38 -0700 From: "W. David Samuelsen" Reply-To: "W. David Samuelsen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Dean Anderson, the crackpot Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just responded to Dean Anderson's attack on the HR 1748 (Rep. Christopher Smith's bill). He believes it is an attack on the First Amendment. Well, with more than 1,000 genealogy listowners backing me up, I told him off that Smith bill is very preferable to the Murkowski bill. Smith bill is a mere amendment to the anti-junk fax law to include the spams. The only way to get the spams is if the person want it, ask for it - just like those who want companies to fax junk messages. One of the spammers destroyed the beloved Maiser at the Indiana University May 10th, home to more than 1,000 genealogy lists with more than 100,000 subscribers. The effect was devastive and the effects are still going on despite the recovery of many lists and moving to different servers elsewhere with added protections. Murkowski bill require the ISPs to install screening blocks on subscriber's addresses at very considerable cost to the subscribers and listowners. The genealogy listowners already finecombed Smith and Murkowski bills and support Smith bill unconditionally. I already told Dean Anderson (who is hopping mad) that it is no use arguing with us the genealogists who were victims of a major spam attack. W. David Samuelsen From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jul 2 22:54:26 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA12933 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 22:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id WAA12833 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 22:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id WAA12670 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chip@localhost) by mail.unicom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA02490; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:54:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199707020554.AAA02490@mail.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Web Page Signups To: bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:54:11 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9706251420.0.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> from "Bob Brown" at Jun 25, 1997 02:20:47 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bob Brown writes: > This has worked very well. So far, no one has reported being unable > to subscribe, and there are *no* phoney subscriptions. What facilities have you provided for these people, who never bothered to learn how to interact with Majordomo, to remove themselves from your list? -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development * http://www.unicom.com/ Junk email is theft - there ought to be a law * http://www.cauce.org/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Jul 2 23:00:00 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA12764 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 22:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id WAA12753 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 22:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id WAA08222 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-970308-2) with ESMTP id WAA26877 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chip@localhost) by mail.unicom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA01511 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:28:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199707020528.AAA01511@mail.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:28:10 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jun 24, 1997 08:37:16 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > >The numbers of fake subscribe attempts has risen dramatically and is > >causing me to rethink the wisdom of web page signups. > > Yup. I've decided to go back to a mailto Why are you even doing that? If the potential subscriber has difficulty following simple instructions on how to join the list, don't you think they might have a few problems when they want to get off? I think that if you have subscribers do anything other than mail a -request address, ultimately you do yourself and the net-as-a-whole an overall disservice. (Exception granted for single-address automated list servers that do reasonable things when mail is sent to the -request address.) -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development * http://www.unicom.com/ Junk email is theft - there ought to be a law * http://www.cauce.org/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jul 3 00:34:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA06244 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 00:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.plaidworks.com (mail2.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id XAA01313 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by mail2.plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA11900; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:57:07 -0700 X-Sender: chuqui@mail2.plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199707020554.AAA02490@mail.unicom.com> References: <9706251420.0.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> from "Bob Brown" at Jun 25, 1997 02:20:47 PM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:56:04 -0700 To: Chip Rosenthal , bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Web Page Signups Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:54 PM -0700 7/1/97, Chip Rosenthal wrote: >What facilities have you provided for these people, who never >bothered to learn how to interact with Majordomo, to remove themselves >from your list? Actually, excuse me for kibbitzing, but since chip jumped me in a different message, it's relevant to answer this as well... On my current system, the web page unzubscribes as well as zubscribes. You just click a different button. Now, the basic assumption is that if someone can figure out how to subscribe, they can unsubscribe as well, since it's the same operation at the same place. This is, in fact, not ALWAYS true, but it's mostly true (FWIW -- my big system, at Apple, processes 500-800 admin requests per day on weekdays. Somewhere over 50% of those requests are generated from the web site, the rest the old-fashioned way. And my overall error rates are under 2%, and the huge majority of those mistakes come via the email interface, not the web interface, and are because users don't read the frigging instructions. They don't read the error messages returned, either... Since the most common mistake is answered there, and I'll see someone try it a number of times in a row at times... On my *new* system, there will be email interfaces and web interfaces to an unzub routine that'll remove the mail address from the header and unsubscribe a user from a list, and since majordomo supports unzub *, a panic-button release that'll take them off the entire server. I'm working on that part as we speak. In other words, I'm doing what arguably ought to be done. Getting *off* a list will be easier than getting *on* it. And users on my systems are going to have to learn less trivia, like preferred syntax of email commands (does that unzub command want quotes in it? Or not?). That stuff will still be there for the more experienced users, but I just don't see any need to turn getting on and off lists into a mini-adventure game. Is that guaranteeing a minimum competency to use the list? Or is that simply elitism or hazing rituals under cover of "this is how we did it in the good old days...."? I'm obviously wroking to a different end-user audience than you, Chip. And I'm consciously trying to broaden my user base as widely as possible. I'm there to help Apple users get informed, which means they're Apple-experienced, not mail list experienced. That doesn't make them stupid. Just new/naive/uninformed. And my job is to build systems to guide them to the information and help them figure this stuff out, so they can go find and zubscribe to your list later without embarassing themselves.... -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jul 3 02:35:34 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA01423 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.plaidworks.com (mail2.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id XAA01274 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by mail2.plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA20852; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:57:01 -0700 X-Sender: chuqui@mail2.plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199707020528.AAA01511@mail.unicom.com> References: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jun 24, 1997 08:37:16 PM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:53:13 -0700 To: Chip Rosenthal , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:28 PM -0700 7/1/97, Chip Rosenthal wrote: >Why are you even doing that? > >If the potential zubscriber has difficulty following simple instructions >on how to join the list, don't you think they might have a few problems >when they want to get off? Well, for one thing, a number of my lists are oriented towards the newer user. It'd be self-defeating to design a system or accept an attitude that if they're not smart enough, they shouldn't be on the list anyway. Part of the reason for the lists is to teach them.... Users aren't too stupid -- well, most of them. Many times, the systems aren't smart enough. Or are built with assumptions that simply aren't true any more, like baseline competencies. Now, if I was running a list for list-admins, I could make different assumptions, because it would be fairly stupid for a person who can barely run Claris emailer to run mail lists (but it happens, and as the list tools improve, with things like LetterRip and non-Unix beasts, you don't need to be a guru any more... We have all sorts of thi stuff running nicely around apple...). But I don't see a reason not to make my lists as easy to use and accessible as I can, because I'm trying to be inclusive, not exclusive. You can make things *too* simple. My web interfaces that allowed multiple signups with one submission was that way. Not only did ti open doors to *stupid* spammers, it opened doors to people who just signed up to everything and drowned in the onslaught. Why'd they do that? Does it matter? (mostly to see what they were about, and dropping the ones they don't want later.. Yes, I check on this stuff.... And a lot of it was not-thinking problems). The current version stops about 95% of the spam and forces users to think about what lists to sign up, because you won't thoughtlessly click around the page signing up for every one. It raises the bar enough, but not too high. And about once a month, someone bitches at me because they can't just click checkboxes instead of radio buttons.... (grin). >I think that if you have zubscribers do anything other than mail >a -request address, ultimately you do yourself and the net-as-a-whole >an overall disservice. Well, we disagree then. I think list servers that allow administrative requests (or worse, DEMAND them) to be sent to the main posting address (as a lot of the ListStar stuff does, and I've had long discussions iwth the developers about this...) do the net as a whole disservice. It creates expectations that cause problems to *other* lists. I don't see adding new features that improve list usage are bad, as long as the "old" ways aren't thrown out willy-nilly, and for those used to the old ways, they're still there. I'm layering in new stuff on top, not replacing stuff, so I'm breaking none of the conventions. And if the stuff works, others will adopt it, and it'll be a new convention some day. That's how things improve over time.... I think I'm making things not-worse, or I wouldn't do it. And hopefully, I make things better for the users. My end-user responses are generally quite favorable. And if the stuff I'm building works, I'll make it available, so that others can take advantage of it as well, if they wish... Or not. I don't see the problem with building on top of a known standard. Ignoring standards, yes. But enhancing them? Why's that a problem, Chip? -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jul 3 11:04:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA18172 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atheria.europa.com (atheria.europa.com [199.2.194.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id KAA17923 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thetics.europa.com(really [199.2.194.14]) by atheria.europa.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:38:57 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #4 built 1997-Jan-19) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:38:57 -0700 (PDT) From: kali To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: weird error... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've been getting this error message quite a bit. I have this weird feeling that it has nothing to do with the users themselves but with the server. It doesn't seem as if it is a "normal" error to have happening repeatedly. Can anyone offer any insight?? I should also add that each and every time I get this error message is accompanied by a second that just says "failed" with no specified address or anything. It does not include the body of the message either (says low priority etc) Thanks!! -kali ******* ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:05:32 -0700 (PDT) From: MAILER-DAEMON@Northwest.com To: owner-dandysrule-outgoing@Northwest.com Cc: postmaster@Northwest.com, owner-dandysrule@northwest.com Subject: mail failed, sending to address owner |------------------------- Failed addresses follow: ---------------------| mlewis@nmsu.edu ... failed: Unable to resolve after timeout(1d) - router inet_hosts: BIND server failure: Nameserver: Server failure: Connection timed out |------------------------- Message text follows: ------------------------| Received: by Northwest.com (Linux Smail3.2.0.95 #11) id m0wjC5A-0023u2a; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atheria.europa.com by Northwest.com with smtp (Linux Smail3.2.0.95 #11) id m0wjC59-0023txC; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:11:35 -0700 (PDT) X-VMail: root@atheria.europa.com, atheria.europa.com, kali@europa.com, 199.2.194.10 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 16:11:35 (PST) on July 01, 1997 Received: from thetics.europa.com(really [199.2.194.14]) by atheria.europa.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:11:32 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #4 built 1997-Jan-19) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:11:32 -0700 (PDT) From: kali To: dandysrule@northwest.com Subject: Re: Super, ultra, in your face, full contact, all emma, nude mud wrestling. In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970701185917.0077f040@popd.netcruiser> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-dandysrule@northwest.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dandysrule@northwest.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 08:04:18 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA12855 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 08:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wasatch.com (ns.wasatch.com [204.99.129.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id IAA12848 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 08:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (204.99.129.85) by mail.wasatch.com with smtp (Linux Smail3.2.0.92 #1) id m0wkWNf-000Sc7C; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:04:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <33BE7089.6838@wasatch.com> Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 09:04:25 -0700 From: "W. David Samuelsen" Reply-To: "W. David Samuelsen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: New spammers addresses to block Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Two new addresses surfaced today... goldfox.com spektrozemnetz.com - don't exist (fake address) Checked checkdomain.com - no connection to IEMMC. Where's that spam-list I kept seeing on this list-managers list? I will be more than happy to forward whole message to the person for anti-spam attack. W. David Samuelsen From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 12:04:14 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA27261 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 11:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wasatch.com (ns.wasatch.com [204.99.129.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id LAA27254 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 11:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (204.99.129.84) by mail.wasatch.com with smtp (Linux Smail3.2.0.92 #1) id m0wka6n-000Sc7C; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:03:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <33BEA88A.4606@wasatch.com> Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 13:03:22 -0700 From: "W. David Samuelsen" Reply-To: "W. David Samuelsen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: More spam addresses to block Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk mapsexpress.com cyberlink1.com both owned by Valjam Communications They tried to send me spam about "Earn $10k/Month with Free 900#" Still haven't receive information on the Spam-List group. W. David Samuelsen From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 13:04:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id NAA28995 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:03:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id NAA28988 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kidzen@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA04055 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:06:14 -0700 Received: from erzo.org by erzo.org (8.7.5/LUCK-AND-DEATH-1.3) id TAA24150; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 19:36:00 GMT Message-Id: <199707051936.TAA24150@erzo.org> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: New spammers addresses to block Reply-To: appel@erzo.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 05 Jul 1997 09:04:25 PDT." <33BE7089.6838@wasatch.com> Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 12:36:00 -0700 From: Shannon Appel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Two new addresses surfaced today... > >goldfox.com >spektrozemnetz.com - don't exist (fake address) >Checked checkdomain.com - no connection to IEMMC. Where's the best place to get a complete list of spam sites? I'm ready to hack up my sendmail to bounce spam sites to the bit bucket but in looking for a good listing of spam sites the best I came up with was AOL's listing. Shannon From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 18:19:19 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA18370 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 18:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wasatch.com (ns.wasatch.com [204.99.129.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id SAA18351 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 18:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (204.99.129.80) by mail.wasatch.com with smtp (Linux Smail3.2.0.92 #1) id m0wkfoR-000Sc7C; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 19:08:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <33BEFE2F.5195@wasatch.com> Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 19:08:47 -0700 From: "W. David Samuelsen" Reply-To: "W. David Samuelsen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Servers banned from Superb.Net network Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The following had been banned/restricted from using the Superb.net servers for relaying: gosnet.com iemmc.org agis.net nancynet.com xsend.com W. David Samuelsen :8^} From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 22:34:45 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA28271 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id WAA28258 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from su1.in.net (su1.in.net [199.0.62.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id PAA24313 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.161.197.98] by su1.in.net with SMTP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA17964; Wed, 2 Jul 97 17:06:52 -0400 Message-Id: <9707022106.AA17964@su1.in.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: Chuq Von Rospach , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:09:48 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Funny AOL Address Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > will take care of that, too -- but because too many folks *can't > type an email address in correctly* and web clients won't let me > authenticate from their configuration. I'm at least going on the > assumption that SOMEONE configured their mail client correctly for > them, and do away with all of those @#$@#$@!#! typos. Boy Chuq, my experience is that that is a big assumption. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 22:39:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA28307 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id WAA28299 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id PAA27102 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27446; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:39:05 -0700 X-Sender: chuqui@mail2.plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <009B63D1.37E2DE54.16@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:23:25 -0700 To: Vince Sabio , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: RE: foundmoney.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:48 PM -0700 7/2/97, Vince Sabio wrote: >Yes, this is the *primary* reason that I remove them, especially from the >discussion lists. I must say, however, that one dark night, I started designing a system that would take these spammers, and subscribe them to all my lists, but on the way out munge all of the headers so all the mail was from them as well as too them... But I decided not to lower myself to their level... >P.S.--My original post apparently took a nice 1-week vacation at the >honor.greatcircle.com mail server. Odd. Nope. We used words that hit the administrivia filters and bounced them to the moderator. It's a feature... -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 22:43:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA28027 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id WAA28017 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu9.psi.com (uu9.psi.com [38.9.32.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id JAA12992 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dkmc.UUCP by uu9.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA26036 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 97 12:00:40 -0400 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 97 11:50:28 EDT From: bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown) Subject: Re: Web Page Signups Message-Id: <9707021150.0.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> This has worked very well. So far, no one has reported being >>unable to subscribe, and there are *no* phoney subscriptions. > >What facilities have you provided for these people, who never >bothered to learn how to interact with Majordomo, to remove >themselves Well, the way the signup works, they *have* to have at least a minimal interaction with Majordomo in order to get subscribed in the first place, and the "take me off" whining has diminished to a few whimpers since I changed over to sending a "how to subscribe" message instead of just signing them up. I think this means the truly clue-impaired aren't subscribing, so they can't whine about wanting to be unsubscribed. Good. In addition, I have a cron job that sends a "how to get off the list" message twice each month. I reply to "take me off" requests, either to me or to the list, with a canned message explaining how to unsubscribe and requesting a copy of the error message(s) if my instructions don't work. So far, *no one* has sent me an error message. I have to admit to being a wimp, though. I manually unsub any jerk who posts a second "take me off" message to the list, only to keep the rest of the list from listening to the complaining. (I have Majordomo's administrivia filter turned off because of false positives.) Ummm, I guess I should mention that the list is closed, in the sense that all subscribe requests have to be approved, but I'm not sure this makes any real difference... there hasn't been one I've failed to approve in two years of running this (small) list. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 22:49:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA28214 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id WAA28197 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.254.96.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id NAA14949 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA14992; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:09:44 -0400 X-Sender: humour@humournet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <009B63D1.37E2DE54.16@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:48:57 -0400 To: Chuq Von Rospach From: Vince Sabio Subject: RE: foundmoney.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 01:38 -0400 7/2/97, Chuq Von Rospach sent everyone: >At 4:00 PM -0700 6/24/97, Vince Sabio wrote: >>Nevertheless, Chuq's suggestion is right on target -- even when they are >>spammer addresses, I still add them into ListProc's .ignored file (or the >>list filter on the LISTSERV list), inasmuch as it might be tempting to just >>set them to NOPOST and leave them there until they start bouncing. ;-) > >This, of course, might only encourage them to add you and/or your site >and/or your lists to their spam systems... Me, I just want them away >from me. They're set up to ignore mail, and I don't want to give them >possible access to my subscriber list addresses. If you leave them on >the list, they can simply start scanning for the addresses of the folks >posting to your lists... Yes, this is the *primary* reason that I remove them, especially from the discussion lists. The list that the DOS attacks usually hit, however, is moderated-edit -- so there's not much opportunity for gathering any addresses other than my own. And spamming me is a *very* bad idea, unless your entire ISP chain approves of the practice. (Not much I can do about AGIS-originated spam. *sigh* Here's to hoping that CAUCE is successful.) P.S.--My original post apparently took a nice 1-week vacation at the honor.greatcircle.com mail server. Odd. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio HumourNet: vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam! From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 23:05:03 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA29432 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id WAA29420 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id RAA20887 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA02850; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:51:24 -0500 (CDT) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Web Page Signups References: <199707020554.AAA02490@mail.unicom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 03 Jul 1997 19:51:24 -0500 In-Reply-To: Chip Rosenthal's message of Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:54:11 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: Lines: 26 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.46/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "CR" == Chip Rosenthal writes: CR> What facilities have you provided for these people, who never bothered CR> to learn how to interact with Majordomo, to remove themselves from your CR> list? A tough problem. The list-headers folks are doing something about the general case, though, by having a header with enough information to enable an MUA to provide an unsubscription button. I'm experimenting with including a URL given in the introductory info that the user can visit at any time (and a string which they can mail) to remove themselves without typing and without having to remember what address they subscribed themselves as. Unfortunately this requires them to save the introductory info, which they lose all too often. I'm not certain that there is a complete solution given changing email addresses and various forwarders. The user will always need to know the address they subscribed as or some unique identifying data. And I'm not convinced of the applicability of conformation tokens sent via mail for unsubscription, though I believe that they are pretty much necessary for subscription. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-3486 - 622PGH System Manager: University of Houston Department of Mathematics 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 23:11:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA28463 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id WAA28436 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.254.96.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id SAA20700 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA17408; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 21:49:02 -0400 X-Sender: humour@humournet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <9707022106.AA17964@su1.in.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 21:52:42 -0400 To: Chuq Von Rospach , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Entrance Exams (was: Funny AOL Address) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 18:48 -0400 7/2/97, Chuq Von Rospach sent everyone: >Anyone for passing a test before being handed a browser? Screw that, Chuq; how about "anyone for passing a test before being handed a modem?" Or, better yet, "anyone for passing a test before being permitted to reproduce?" Now THAT would solve a lot of problems ... (not least of which would be eliminating the spectre of *my* reproducing ;-) __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio HumourNet: vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam! From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 5 23:17:02 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA28348 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id WAA28332 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from su1.in.net (su1.in.net [199.0.62.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id PAA26713 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.161.197.98] by su1.in.net with SMTP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA20175; Wed, 2 Jul 97 17:35:47 -0400 Message-Id: <9707022135.AA20175@su1.in.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:38:43 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Subscription problems Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Folks, I am in the process of moving my lists over to my own server and am running into some snafu's. I'm running SLMAIL, which is okay. Okay, it was easy. I had it up and running in 15 minutes. I didn't have that good of luck with other products and didn't want to pay for a commercial license to run 1 rather large list. These are the problems I'm experiencing. Prodigy's mailer puts a little blurb at the top of their emails, which triggers an "unknown command -" error message whenever a user tries to send a command. Is this a feature that the EMC user can turn off? Obviously, I can't set the software to start reading commands further down. I used myself as an example of how to send messages to the listserver and put: This is an example of how to send a command SUBSCRIBE TEST AMY STINSON and had no fewer than 50 people sign up to the TEST list with the name Amy Stinson. How do I get them to stop that? Like Chuq, I will no longer be offering Web sign up. I averaged about 10 bad addresses every week, mostly from AOL people who put only their screen name to compuserve people who used commas in their addresses. Those comma addresses are really hard to remove from a smart list list. You have to put them in quotes. I thought that moving them from individual request addresses to one generic address would simplify things. Not on your life. They can't spell listserv, listserve, listserver, majordomo, or listproc. They can't spell subscribe. They can't see spaces in between words. Yes, I had one send this command subscribetestyourname and couldn't figure out why it didn't go through. I guess what I really want to know is if someone has written a help file for dummies that I can shamelessly borrow and adapt to my own listserver? I've really tried to dumb mine down, but I obviously have missed something. thanks, amy From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Jul 6 07:49:27 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA17509 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 07:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wasatch.com (ns.wasatch.com [204.99.129.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id HAA17468 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 07:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (204.99.129.81) by mail.wasatch.com with smtp (Linux Smail3.2.0.92 #1) id m0wksXd-000SdnC; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 08:43:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <33BFBD55.185B@wasatch.com> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 08:44:21 -0700 From: "W. David Samuelsen" Reply-To: "W. David Samuelsen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: More addresses to block Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Got it today. Checked it out. Epislonfree.com don't exist microsyssolutions.com is source of spam (in Ohio) and unfortunately linfield.edu (Linfield College in McMinnville, OR) is victim of the delivery. They had been informed of the spam. W. David Samuelsen From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Jul 6 16:04:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA17996 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grinch.whoville.leftbank.com (grinch.leftbank.com [139.167.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id PAA17989 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zax.whoville.leftbank.com by grinch.whoville.leftbank.com via smtpd (for honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) with SMTP; 6 Jul 1997 22:54:58 UT Received: (from nmehl@localhost) by zax.leftbank.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/LeftBank-1.1/http://www.leftbank.com/) id SAA23677; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:56:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan J. Mehl" Message-Id: <199707062256.SAA23677@zax.leftbank.com> Subject: Re: Servers banned from Superb.Net network To: dsam@wasatch.com Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:56:19 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <33BEFE2F.5195@wasatch.com> from "W. David Samuelsen" at Jul 5, 97 07:08:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of W. David Samuelsen: > The following had been banned/restricted from using the Superb.net > servers for relaying: > gosnet.com > iemmc.org > agis.net > nancynet.com > xsend.com Not to pick on you personally, Mr. Samuelsen, but... Folks, can we please, please, please stop with the "I got spammed by this domain" bulletins? Although I appreciate that it's necessary and good to blow off steam after being used by spammers, it really does nobody much good whatsoever. Existing spammers change their domain names and their providers as fast as they are blocked, and new ones come online every day. Filtering them out by domain name is of debatable use, and trying to assemble that list of domain names by sending email to list- managers is probably the least efficient way I can personally think of to do it. If y'all seriously want to try to block spam domains from your lists, a much more efficient method would be for somebody or bodies to volunteer to maintain a central list, with regular updates and verification procedures. But even that, in my estimation, is a losing battle -- it's shutting the door to the barn after the horses have left. If you want to see an end to spam, consider contributing your time or money to CAUCE - the Campaign Against Unsolicited Commercial Email. They have a bill to criminalize spam up for consideration in congress this term. If you are not from the US, read the text of the CAUCE bill (available on http://www.cauce.org) and try lobbying your local legislature to adopt something similar. -n -- The life of a sysadmin is always intense! Nathan J. Mehl --- The LeftBank Operation nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com A Global Internet Company. http://www.gi.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 7 03:04:17 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id CAA07184 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cygnus.com (cygnus.com [205.180.230.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id CAA07177 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cfcl.com (cfcl.com [140.174.42.20]) by cygnus.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA04244 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cfcl.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11780; Mon, 7 Jul 97 02:53:31 PDT Date: Mon, 7 Jul 97 02:53:31 PDT From: dick@cfcl.com (Dick Karpinski) Message-Id: <9707070953.AA11780@cfcl.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: What to track for spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk What about hitting the spammers where they get their feedback? Wouldn't a registry of email addresses, URLs, and telephone numbers be more reliable in stopping (most) spamming? It won't work against spam without intent to get feedback, but to make money, the spam has to have some ways for the suckers to respond. It might be harder for the spammer to change feedback route than to change the apparent origin of the spam. Dick From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 7 07:20:05 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA24495 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wordsmith.org (lrdc5.lrdc.pitt.edu [136.142.93.166]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id HAA24478 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from local (anu@localhost) by wordsmith.org (8.8.6/tethered+proc $Revision: 1.3 $) ID ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:21:03 -0400 From: Anu Garg Message-Id: <199707071421.KAA10468@wordsmith.org> Subject: Announcing Listat Beta To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:21:02 -0400 (EDT) Restrict: no-external-archive X-No-Archive: yes X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Listat = List + Stat A free, professional package to create interesting statistics on mailing list addresses. A brief list of features: o Create stats in text form and HTML form o Flags for the countries are included in the HTML stats o The report can be sorted by the domain name or by the number of subscribers from a domain name. o Reports on unrecognized domains o User configurable domain file: can be extended if more domain names are introduced o Additional miscellaneous statistical information reported: Average length of email address, Standard Deviation, Longest length, Longest email addresses Shortest length, Shortest email addresses Listat is currently in beta. Download it from: http://www.wordsmith.org/anu/listat/index.html Please send your suggestions, comments, bug reports, and any feedback to me at anu@wordsmith.org. Thanks, -- Anu Garg anu@wordsmith.org http://www.wordsmith.org/anu From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 7 09:49:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id JAA13958 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cygnus.com (cygnus.com [205.180.230.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id JAA13874 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cfcl.com (cfcl.com [140.174.42.20]) by cygnus.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA16105 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cfcl.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12101; Mon, 7 Jul 97 09:24:12 PDT Date: Mon, 7 Jul 97 09:24:12 PDT From: dick@cfcl.com (Dick Karpinski) Message-Id: <9707071624.AA12101@cfcl.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What to track for spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I was not intending to suggest that we tie up such a number, but that we identify spam by means of it. When it's a URL, one can locate the host administrators and send them email, but the point of the registry would be to prevent messages containing the feedback addr/URL/phone from being widely distributed until non-spamness can be verified. Dick From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 7 15:36:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id NAA01048 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jazz.cybercon.com (jazz.cybercon.com [199.217.156.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id NAA01017 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [199.174.147.93] (dd05-093.dub.compuserve.com [199.174.147.93]) by jazz.cybercon.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA13303 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:51:20 -0500 X-Sender: erictarg@pop.cybercon.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:59:03 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Eric Targan Subject: Wanted: ISPs with Industrial Strength List Software Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk WANTED: LIST OF ISPs with Industrial Strength List Software =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D Does Anyone have a list of ISPs which would include the software they are running. They must be able to run 100,000 with ease with capacity for several hundred thousand. Thanks From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 7 23:19:41 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA03438 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id XAA03428 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.213.24]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id JAA26814 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:53:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by ilinx.ilinx.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA07092; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:57:06 -0700 Received: from adm200.mutl-max01.bctel.net(204.174.213.200) by ilinx.ilinx.com via smap (V2.0) id xma007087; Sun, 6 Jul 97 09:56:55 -0700 Message-Id: <8033.868207827.2650408.3298@> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:50:27 -0700 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Subject: Re: Servers banned from Superb.Net network To: , Reply-To: "Brian J. Murrell" X-Importance: normal X-Sensitivity: normal X-Priority: normal X-Mailer: TeamWARE Embla 2.02, Final, Build: 64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk W. David Samuelsen: >The following had been banned/restricted from using the Superb.net >servers for relaying: > >gosnet.com > iemmc.org > agis.net > nancynet.com > xsend.com David, you are going about this bass-ackwards. You should have a list of servers allowed to relay mail through your servers, none else should be allowed. You will never keep up otherwise. Too much of the spamming fight nowadays is after the fact, when, of course we all know it is too late. The damage is done, and the spammer is already bounced. His spam made it out there though. Preventing mail relaying is something we can do that is prevenative. We should be doing it! b. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 7 23:22:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA03451 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id XAA03441 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcusa80.ecunet.org (pcusa80.ecunet.org [206.115.64.80]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id NAA14767 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcusa01.ecunet.org by pcusa80.pcusa.org id aa22491; 6 Jul 97 16:22 EDT Subject: Re: Web Page Signups To: bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:22:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Merrill Cook" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com In-Reply-To: <9707021150.0.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> from "Bob Brown" at Jul 2, 97 11:50:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9707061622.aa05278@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I do basically the same thing, except I check to make sure the address on the list is close enough to the one on their mail message that majordomo will be able to unsubscribe them -- no sense telling them to send the message to majordomo if, for example, they have one of the newfangled JohnSmith@compuseve.com addresses on their mailer, and are subscribed as 71111.1111@compuserve.com... those folks I just quietly unsubscribe. I also look to make sure they don't have odd MIME encoding that will interfere with the command. >From Bob Brown: > > In addition, I have a cron job that sends a "how to get off the > list" message twice each month. I reply to "take me off" requests, > either to me or to the list, with a canned message explaining how to > unsubscribe and requesting a copy of the error message(s) if my > instructions don't work. So far, *no one* has sent me an error > message. > > I have to admit to being a wimp, though. I manually unsub any > jerk who posts a second "take me off" message to the list, only to > keep the rest of the list from listening to the complaining. (I have > Majordomo's administrivia filter turned off because of false > positives.) -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org or MERRILL COOK on Ecunet/PresbyNet http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa.html -+- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 7 23:29:50 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA03396 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) id XAA03388 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kira.ici.net (kira.ici.net [207.180.0.37]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id EAA03124 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (d-ma-mansfield-151.ici.net [207.180.8.160]) by kira.ici.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA10467 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 07:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 07:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707061157.HAA10467@kira.ici.net> X-Sender: lbm@mail.ici.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Linda B. Merims" Subject: Re: Subscription Problems Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Amy Stinson wrote: >... >I used myself as an example of how to send messages to the listserver >and put: This is an example of how to send a command >SUBSCRIBE TEST AMY STINSON > >and had no fewer than 50 people sign up to the TEST list with the >name Amy Stinson. How do I get them to stop that? I laughed at this. I was doing documentation for Project Athena at MIT in the mid 80s. Athena was where the X Window System was invented. The way the network was back then, everybody effectively had to set the DISPLAY environment variable before they could use a terminal. So, I wrote a little blurb to show students how to set DISPLAY. I made the mistake of using a real machine name, teela:0, as an example: setenv DISPLAY teela:0 Well, teela:0 became one machine on the system you *didn't* want to be using. As you'd sit there, other peoples' windows would constantly be popping up on your screen! Shortly thereafter we invented xhost. I understand your frustration. Really, most of what the job of list manager consists of is helping people subscribe and unsubscribe. The first time I saw somebody misspell subscribe I was floored. Well, it turns out to be a fairly common mistake. I've got "boilerplate" messages for the two most common mistakes: sending to the list instead of the admin address, and failing to put the right thing on the subject line (SmartList). It is just that most of the people using the Internet these days don't exist and have never existed in a world that requires the degree of precision required to interact with computers. They are literally incapable of resolving that degree of preciseness in instructions. They also don't seem to understand that they are not talking to a person, they are talking to an automated system where all the pleasantries they include ("Please add me to your list, I've heard so much about it," "I am changing jobs so please change my subscription") go unheard. Linda B. Merims lbm@ici.net Massachusetts, USA From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jul 10 10:50:18 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA21504 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inquo.net (inquo.net [207.179.0.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id KAA21453 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (myth@localhost) by inquo.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA29799 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:47:59 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:47:58 -0600 (MDT) From: "Adam \"Myth\" Parrish" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Questions about mailing lists Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings! My name is Adam Parrish. I've been a mailing list enthusiast for a long while. Currently I'm taking a technical writing class here at Weber State University, and in this class the instructor requires each student to write a paper on an electronic discussion group that relates to their desired field. I have chosen to write a report to help the students along in finding and participating in mailing lists. If you would, please consider the following questions: - What are the most common problems that first-time mailing list subscribers have when trying to get on a list? How can these be avoided? - How long should a first-time subscriber observe a list before trying to participate in discussion? What is the best way to present yourself to a mailing list when trying to get specific answers? - Are there any problems that people have unsubscribing from your mailing lists? How can these be avoided? - What, in your opinion, are the major advantages of mailing lists over other collaborative electronic media, i.e., newsgroups, web-boards, etc.? I'm sure you've discussed issues like this before on this mailing list, but I'm hoping to spark a little discussion. :) If you have any more information regarding mailing lists and mailing list technology that you would like to share, please contact me. Thanks for your help, Adam Parrish . ---- --- -- - - - - | http://www.inquo.net/~myth = myth@inquo.net : Bad command or filename. You have 2 wishes left. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jul 10 16:29:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA24747 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from squid.tcd.net (squid.tcd.net [198.70.50.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id PAA24492 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tcd.net (root@main.tcd.net [198.70.50.4]) by squid.tcd.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA00135; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:38:52 -0700 Received: from 1022161404 (port6.slc.tcd.net [204.248.105.26]) by tcd.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA09110; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:38:32 -0700 Message-Id: <199707102238.PAA09110@tcd.net> Reply-To: From: "HTTP://WWW.CBMWORLD.COM/" To: "Adam \"Myth\" Parrish" , Cc: Subject: Re: Questions about mailing lists Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:37:28 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Check out these two sites for numerous mailing lists: http://www.liszt.com/ http://www.reference.com/ ******************************************************************** Jianliang Li -- Salt Lake City, USA -- cbmworld@tcd.net FREE Internet Business: http://www.cbmworld.com/fci.htm Or call 1-800-324-3245 Sponsor ID# LI9999999 ********************************************************************* ---------- > From: Adam "Myth" Parrish > To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM > Subject: Questions about mailing lists > Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 11:47 AM > > > Greetings! My name is Adam Parrish. I've been a mailing list > enthusiast for a long while. Currently I'm taking a technical writing > class here at Weber State University, and in this class the instructor > requires each student to write a paper on an electronic discussion group > that relates to their desired field. I have chosen to write a report > to help the students along in finding and participating in mailing lists. > > If you would, please consider the following questions: > > - What are the most common problems that first-time mailing list > subscribers have when trying to get on a list? How can these be avoided? > - How long should a first-time subscriber observe a list before > trying to participate in discussion? What is the best way to present > yourself to a mailing list when trying to get specific answers? > - Are there any problems that people have unsubscribing from > your mailing lists? How can these be avoided? > - What, in your opinion, are the major advantages of mailing > lists over other collaborative electronic media, i.e., newsgroups, > web-boards, etc.? > > I'm sure you've discussed issues like this before on this mailing > list, but I'm hoping to spark a little discussion. :) If you have any > more information regarding mailing lists and mailing list technology that > you would like to share, please contact me. > > Thanks for your help, > Adam Parrish > . ---- --- -- - - - - > | http://www.inquo.net/~myth = myth@inquo.net > : Bad command or filename. You have 2 wishes left. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Jul 10 20:20:02 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA18569 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whoweb.com (adrl.xtdl.com [206.25.229.162]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id TAA18479 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by whoweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA15766 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:59:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:59:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Jonathan Wallace Message-Id: <199707110259.WAA15766@whoweb.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: restrict-post Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a number of mailing lists I administer and utilize the restrict-post option to restrict postings by list members only. The named file I use is the member list created by majordomo itself, under the lists directory. I've run into a really weird problem, in that this works fine for some of the lists, but not for others. I've gone as far as copying the .cf file for the list that works ok, to the other list and then just changing the list name appropriately. But this still doesn't work. Can anyone point me to a possible solution? Protections for all files are identical between the list that works fine and the list that doesn't. I'm using the -C flag with virtual host names for the lists, and separate .cf files for each list. Except for the hostname and the list directory directives, the .cf files are the same. Jon From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 07:05:03 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id GAA19230 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kira.ici.net (uhura.ici.net [204.97.252.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id GAA19223 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klingon.ici.net (lbm@klingon.ici.net [207.180.0.40]) by kira.ici.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01861 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (lbm@localhost) by klingon.ici.net (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA15768 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:57:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: klingon.ici.net: lbm owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:57:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Linda B. Merims" X-Sender: lbm@klingon To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: List Being Used to Create Spam List In-Reply-To: <199707120800.BAA23470@honor.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One of the subscribers to my list is a marketing professional in the subject area covered by the list. This subscriber is an active participant in the list and an excellent, consistent, popular contributor. However, recently I have become aware that this subscriber has been collecting the e-mail addresses of everybody who sends posts to the list. They have become part of an "e-mail marketing" list that she has put together. Her marketing list also contains other addresses that are interested in the subject area, but don't happen to be subscribers to the listserve. But the majority are. Noone was asked whether they wanted to be on her e-mail marketing list. Last week I rejected an advertisement to the list that this marketing professional had sent in to promote a sales event put on by one of her clients. (The list has a firm "no advertising" policy.) Well, this subscriber turned around and sent the announcement out to her e-mail marketing list. In short, she spammed it. When I questioned her about it, she said, "What are you going to do, sue me?" Like most marketing professionals, she views her address-collecting/mailing list activities on the Internet as identical to those she practises off the Internet. Any ideas for how to deal with this are welcome. Linda B. Merims lbm@ici.net Massachusetts, USA From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 08:50:18 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA23105 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.plaidworks.com (mail2.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id IAA23090 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by mail2.plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA28142; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:46:27 -0700 X-Sender: chuqui@mail2.plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199707120800.BAA23470@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:45:20 -0700 To: "Linda B. Merims" , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:57 AM -0700 7/12/97, Linda B. Merims wrote: >Well, this subscriber turned around and sent the announcement >out to her e-mail marketing list. In short, she spammed it. >When I questioned her about it, she said, "What are you going >to do, sue me?" Like most marketing professionals, she views >her address-collecting/mailing list activities on the Internet >as identical to those she practises off the Internet. Well, first, does your list charter have a note that addresses are private and not to be used or collected for any other purpose? (do you have "who" turned off? If not, then you might as well stop now, because anyone can grab your list at any time, and you haven't tried to protect it). My language, which I'm going to rewrite soon, is this: - Commercial postings are not allowed on the lists except by previous approval of the List Mom. We do not want blatant sales hype and pitches. The List Mom is willing help you write your posting to be acceptable if it's possible. You may not use addresses obtained from this list to harass others or send them offensive, abusive or commercial e-mail. If we find out that people are sending commercial solicitations or abusive e-mail to users of our lists, the offender will be removed from the lists and possibly reported to his site administrators. - If you don't have a specific rule against it, then you could argue whether she did anything wrong, although the "what are you going to do, sue me?" implies she dosen't really care, she'll do what she wants. Depending on whether or not your charter said no, I'd do one of two things: The charter supports you: 1) Send mail to the list explaining what's happened. Tell all users she did this without your permission, and that if they find this unacceptable, to write her directly and demand being taken off her lists, because you tried and she refused to cooperate with you. 2) Immediately after sending that message, kick her off the list and lock her out so she can't come back, and send her formal notice she's no longer welcome. Make sure she's on the list for her public flogging, though. If nothing else, we want her to know that the people she's trying to market to on your list have been warned she's being sleazy (which she is). And we want her to know she's ruined what she considered a lucrative home for marketing and publicity... Now, if the charter doesn't support you: 1) Do #1 above. 2) In a separate message, formally define the new policy making this against the list rules, update the charter, and publish the new charter. 3) send her a formal cease and desist, and note that if you get one more report of her sucking one more e-mail that she can't document (formally and completely document) was on her list prior to this date, she's toast. Let her know that if she sneezes in your direction on a bad hair day, she's history. And the next time someone complains that she sent mail privately, demand proof she had that address before you did this, and when she can't give it to you, nail her. Alternatively, you can simply redefine the rules, make them retroactive, and nuke her anyway, but frankly, I find those things ethically iffy, especially when set things up so that you can still take the moral high ground AND make them miserable at the same time and make sure that sooner or later they'll trip the wire anyway. I've got patience... (besides, chances are, once she knows the jig is up, she'll probably leave. If not, it's a matter of time, and there's no reason for you to continue cooperating with her, even if she's not kicked off the list...) I have absolutely no problem with publically siccing the list on someone like this if they're refusing to be reasonable with me in private. You've tried, she's refused, so now tell everyone on the list what she's been doing, and have them all deal with her directly if they don't like it. Not all of them will be nearly as polite as you, but then, you tried, so that's not your problem.... (snicker) -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 11:50:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA01655 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 11:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anago.wwa.com (anago.wwa.com [198.49.174.54]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id LAA01648 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 11:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:52:25 -0500 (CDT) Cc: lbm@ici.net, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jul 12, 97 08:45:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq von Rospach suggested to Linda Merims, | Now, if the charter doesn't support you: [a procedure that doesn't include booting the offender unless she does it again] I disagree. According to Linda, the offender has told her, "What are you going to do, sue me?" That comment means, as I read it, "Yes, what I did is wrong, but it is to my potential advantage, so I did it anyway, and you can't stop me, so I'll continue." Even if there is nothing yet in the charter forbidding culling addresses for commercial advertising (or even if there is no charter at all) and her mailings to members are not grounds for removal, her statement that she will do as she pleases no matter how it harms the list or the list members is an avowed refusal to act as a part of the community, and I say that *that* is grounds for removal from the list. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 12:35:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA04246 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.eskimo.com (mx1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.48]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id MAA04229 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:25:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA20992; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:29:55 -0700 From: Berg Received: by eskimo.com (8.8.6) id MAA22607; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707121929.MAA22607@eskimo.com> To: dattier@wwa.com Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Personally, I'd kick the offender off. Of course, on my lists, I also had a rule that stated exactly that, right from the start. In fact, if you write the list rules as a contract, and notify the applicant to the list BEFORE they are subbed of those rules/contract, anybody who breaks a list rule COULD be sued for breach of contract...:) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 12:50:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA06315 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinet.chinet.com (chinet.chinet.com [206.158.147.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id MAA06308 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ahk@localhost) by chinet.chinet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06462 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:53:53 -0500 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:53:53 -0500 (CDT) From: "Adam H. Kerman" To: list-managers Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List In-Reply-To: <199707121929.MAA22607@eskimo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Berg >Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:29:54 -0700 (PDT) >In fact, if you write the list rules as a contract, and notify the applicant >to the list BEFORE they are subbed of those rules/contract, anybody who breaks >a list rule COULD be sued for breach of contract...:) You'd lose. That sounds like an unenforceable adhesion contract. You couldn't show a meeting of minds required to make a contract. Furthermore, your damages are minimal, just a bit more fuss in administering the list. The parties damaged are the list members; again, it's minimal. Even as a class. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 12:53:04 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA06024 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.eskimo.com (mx1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.48]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id MAA06017 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA23328; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:46:57 -0700 From: Berg Received: by eskimo.com (8.8.6) id MAA28257; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707121946.MAA28257@eskimo.com> To: lbm@ici.net Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This EXACT problem cropped up on my list a while back. A guy sent an advertisement to the list, which, while it WAS technically on-topic for the list, violated the no-commercial-advertisements rule. So I told him it wasn't allowed. About a week later, he apparently got "curious" about how many people were on the list, and got ahold of the subscriber list (which is available to any list subscriber, but NOT to anybody not on the list, since the list is essentially for a club). He then sent out three advertisements, using the subscriber list in a space of half an hour. If he had told me what he wanted the list for, I would have refused. If he had asked me before posting to the list, I probably would have said YES. As it was though, I kicked him off, because he broke a list rule, then grabbed the subscriber list to break them three more times off-list, but using the subscriber list verbatim (he even left both co-listowner addresses on the emailing he sent out, of all things). My rules are pretty simple: 1. First Offense: Warning. 2. Second Offense: Removal for 1 Week. 3. Third Offense: Removal for 1 Month. 4. Fourth Offense: Permanent Removal. 5. Non-Commercial Ads: Removal for 1 Month, No Warning. 6. Spam or Commercial Posting: Permanent Removal, No Warning. Simple mistakes are excusable, but repeated carelessness or simple refusal to obey the rules is punished. The rules are auto-emailed to anyone who requests to be subscribed (which is handled manually for security), and are reposted every few months. Those rules have served me well for over a year now. So far, only one person has been booted off for spamming, and what he did is now listed as an example in the listrules, so we haven't had any repeats of that behavior. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 13:50:07 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id NAA09695 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.plaidworks.com (mail2.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id NAA09684 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by mail2.plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA33034; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:44:39 -0700 X-Sender: chuqui@mail2.plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jul 12, 97 08:45:20 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:21:53 -0700 To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin), chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List Cc: lbm@ici.net, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:52 AM -0700 7/12/97, David W. Tamkin wrote: >Even if there is nothing yet in the charter forbidding culling addresses >for commercial advertising (or even if there is no charter at all) and her >mailings to members are not grounds for removal, her statement that she will >do as she pleases no matter how it harms the list or the list members is an >avowed refusal to act as a part of the community, and I say that *that* is >grounds for removal from the list. Can't disagee with this -- Whatever you feel comfortable with. I'm depending on the person either taking the hint or giving me a an opportunity later (which, I've found, pretty much happens, usually sooner than later), but if you feel comfortable with it, I won't argue. For me, the public flogging's the important part anyway, since it'll force her to deal with a lot of individual complaints (at least, we hope...) instead of thinking she can stonewall one person. And if she refuses all of those individuals' requests to be removed from her lists, I'd encourage everyone who's on her list to go to her site admins and accuse her of being a spammer. Which, in fact, she is... -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 14:50:25 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA12296 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinet.chinet.com (chinet.chinet.com [206.158.147.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id OAA12287 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ahk@localhost) by chinet.chinet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA07581 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:47:12 -0500 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:47:12 -0500 (CDT) From: "Adam H. Kerman" To: list-managers Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List In-Reply-To: <199707122002.NAA03838@eskimo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Berg >Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:02:47 -0700 (PDT) >Software makers do this all the time. . . so it can't be as unenforceable as >you say. Intellectual property is different; a list of subscribers doesn't qualify. >So what you do is, set the list for owner-approved (or manual) subscriptions, >then when someone tries to subscribe, send them the list rules/contract, and a >note to read it. Then if they still want to subscribe, sub them. And, you collect damages how exactly? >In the case of commercial advertisements, you could conceivably prove that >they made money by breaking a contract...which doesn't look good in court. :) Regardless, you aren't entitled to this money. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 15:05:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA14672 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 15:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.eskimo.com (mx1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.48]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id PAA14664 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 15:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA07743; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 15:07:31 -0700 From: Berg Received: by eskimo.com (8.8.6) id PAA17889; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 15:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 15:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707122207.PAA17889@eskimo.com> To: ahk@chinet.chinet.com Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, actually, I wasn't talking about suing for money. Suing to make them stop using the subscriber list was more what I had in mind. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 16:35:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA24761 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.plaidworks.com (mail2.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id QAA24744 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by mail2.plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA14778; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:34:10 -0700 X-Sender: chuqui@mail2.plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199707122002.NAA03838@eskimo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:26:57 -0700 To: "Adam H. Kerman" , list-managers From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:47 PM -0700 7/12/97, Adam H. Kerman wrote: >>Software makers do this all the time. . . so it can't be as unenforceable as >>you say. > >Intellectual property is different; a list of subscribers doesn't qualify. I'll disagree. It's my resource. I spent the money and energy to create the list of subscribers (or the service that creates it). Therefore I think intellectual property is a perfectly valid argument -- it's my sweat equity and pocketbook, so I sure better have a say in its use. (this is a reason why my subscriber lists are just plain old not available to anyone, anyhow. I run lists where it's not unusual for there to be people listening in who don't want their presence advertised, too. Assuring their privacy is important to me as well) >And, you collect damages how exactly? Go to small claims court and define a value for the rental of the mailing list. Tihs is a perfectly acceptable practice, since it has a viable analogy with magazine subscriptions and other lists that are regularly rented. And if someone were to grab one of THOSE lists without paying for it, you can bet the court would have no trouble defining damages. >>In the case of commercial advertisements, you could conceivably prove that >>they made money by breaking a contract...which doesn't look good in court. :) > >Regardless, you aren't entitled to this money. Why not? It's my service that generated the list. If I create a service that attracts users to it, I should be able to reap the benefit of that service, or choose who does by licensing those benefits out. That I choose *not* to reap those benefits doesn't mean they don't exist or that users can take them without my permission. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 16:50:36 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA25973 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinet.chinet.com (chinet.chinet.com [206.158.147.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id QAA25955 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ahk@localhost) by chinet.chinet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA08704 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:50:34 -0500 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:50:34 -0500 (CDT) From: "Adam H. Kerman" To: list-managers Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Chuq Von Rospach >Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:26:57 -0700 >At 2:47 PM -0700 7/12/97, Adam H. Kerman wrote: >>Intellectual property is different; a list of subscribers doesn't qualify. >I'll disagree. It's my resource. I spent the money and energy to create >the list of subscribers (or the service that creates it). Therefore I >think intellectual property is a perfectly valid argument -- it's my >sweat equity and pocketbook, so I sure better have a say in its use. Several years ago, the publisher of the official telephone directory sued the publisher of a rival publisher. It was apparent that one directory was a copy of the other. Nevertheless, the court ruled that the telephone directory isn't copyrightable. A classified list, like the yellow pages, could be. In the example we were discussing, the advertiser didn't copy the subscribers' names from the list owner. She took them from the From header of messages that appeared in her mailbox. The list manager doesn't own this information. >>>In the case of commercial advertisements, you could conceivably prove that >>>they made money by breaking a contract...which doesn't look good in court. :) >>Regardless, you aren't entitled to this money. >Why not? It's my service that generated the list. If I create a service that >attracts users to it, I should be able to reap the benefit of that service, or >choose who does by licensing those benefits out. That I choose *not* to reap >those benefits doesn't mean they don't exist or that users can take them >without my permission. You don't own those potential benefits. You can't control what people do with information once you have set up a forum to get it out there, particularly information you don't own, like a list of e-mail addresses. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 17:05:15 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA26825 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (kristeva.postmodern.com [198.102.244.54]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id QAA26808 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 198.102.244.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [198.102.244.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-960422) with ESMTP id RAA12746; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33C81B26.D6A4BCCE@postmodern.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:10:08 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chuq Von Rospach CC: "Adam H. Kerman" , list-managers Subject: Re: List Being Used to Create Spam List X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199707122002.NAA03838@eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > At 2:47 PM -0700 7/12/97, Adam H. Kerman wrote: > > >>Software makers do this all the time. . . so it can't be as > unenforceable as > >>you say. > > > >Intellectual property is different; a list of subscribers doesn't > qualify. > > I'll disagree. It's my resource. I spent the money and energy to > create the list of subscribers (or the service that creates it). Therefore I > think intellectual property is a perfectly valid argument -- it's my > sweat equity and pocketbook, so I sure better have a say in its use. An appealing argument, but not the state of the law. The only two applicable intellectual property theories would be copyright and trade secret, and neither would apply here. As to copyright, the aptly-named "sweat of the brow" doctrine was deprecated by the Supreme Court a few years ago; a simple compiled list, directory, etc. does not qualify as an "original work of authorship" (the criterion of subject matter in the Copyright Act). There has to be a significant value-added component. This was in a case involving a white-pages telephone directory. As for trade secret, unless you actually rent out the list of have some other business purpose for it, it's not "trade", and if you don't make a very serious effort to protect it, it's not a "secret". Trade secret law is *very* picky. > >And, you collect damages how exactly? > > Go to small claims court and define a value for the rental of the > mailing list. Tihs is a perfectly acceptable practice, since it has a > viable analogy with magazine subscriptions and other lists that are > regularly rented. And if someone were to grab one of THOSE lists > without paying for it, you can bet the court would have no trouble > defining damages. One, you would have to show that you actually did rent out the list or had concrete plans to do so. Courts are rightfully very leery of valuations based on analogous or hypothetical valuations. And statements to the defendant saying that the list is not to be used for commercial purposes and that you don't want your subscribers spammed shoots that argument in the foot. But even if you were able to show a valuation, it would be trivial since most lists are very small and rental *per name, per mailing* is usually on the order of 10 cents or so, and the lifetime of a given list (per mailer) is considered to be maybe 5-6 mailings. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Jul 12 20:20:07 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA17920 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 20:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cygnus.com (cygnus.com [205.180.230.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id UAA17898 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 20:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cfcl.com (cfcl.com [140.174.42.20]) by cygnus.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA06355 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 20:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cfcl.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03199; Sat, 12 Jul 97 20:13:53 PDT Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 20:13:53 PDT From: dick@cfcl.com (Dick Karpinski) Message-Id: <9707130313.AA03199@cfcl.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Questions about mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Mr. Parrish, You need to follow rule one. Don't ask such a question. Anyone who knows the answer has too much to do to bother with answering someone for their school project. However, if you should happen to read up some in the archives and develop some sense of what the answers might be, you could write that up and propose that it is so. Then you WILL get those same folks answering to explain how you got it all screwed up. Believe it or not, this is pretty sensible on all sides. Dick From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 14 11:06:52 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA18944 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id KAA18843 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA12547; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:19:35 -0500 (CDT) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: MIME digest formats Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 14 Jul 1997 12:19:34 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.46/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm working on MIME digests for Majordomo and I've come to a question which needs more discussion than it can get on majordomo-workers. My problem involves what to do with additional information like the digest index and footer information. RFC2046 is rather explicit about it; you give the message type multipart/mixed with three parts: a text/plain with the index, a multipart/digest with the actual digested messages, and a text/plain with the footer matter. This seems to be just asking for improper handling by the usual crappy mailers that exist in the world. So what's the solution? Make two fake message/rfc822 parts for the index and footer and add them into the multipart/digest? Do what 2046 says and tell people whose mailers blow up to just switch back to RFC1153 digests? What to other MLMs do? I've already received a complaint that Listserv does what RFC2046 says and that people hate it. - J< From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 14 13:21:00 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id NAA25521 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id NAA25302 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-970308-2) with ESMTP id MAA03281 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA15798; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:45:35 -0500 (CDT) To: Eric Thomas Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MIME digest formats References: <199707141902.OAA14663@sina.hpc.uh.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 14 Jul 1997 14:45:35 -0500 In-Reply-To: Eric Thomas's message of Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:58:27 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.46/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "ET" == Eric Thomas writes: ET> LISTSERV does NOT follow RFC2046 for the reasons outlined above. Sorry, I meant Listproc. I can't keep the two straight. In any case, what does Listserv do? Embedding a text/plain inside of a multipart/digest is forbidden unless you make it into a message/rfc822, so that would seem to be the only option besides telling folks that can't handle MIME to go back to RFC1153 digests. - J< From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 14 14:53:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id NAA00266 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webster.m-w.com ([206.98.43.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with SMTP id NAA00236 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by m-w.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.0) id AA00478; Mon, 14 Jul 97 16:20:10 EDT Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 16:20:10 EDT From: awest@webster.m-w.com (Amy West) Message-Id: <9707142020.AA00478@m-w.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: bandwidth for a mailing list Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk What kind of bandwith do you think is needed for a 2500 member once-a-day announcement list? ISDN sufficient? fractional T-1 necessary? ---Amy West From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 14 15:20:22 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA19823 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id PAA19808 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway.tssi.com [198.147.197.29]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28359; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:13:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA09235; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:13:30 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA10690; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:13:27 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199707142213.RAA10690@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: bandwidth for a mailing list To: awest@webster.m-w.com (Amy West) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:13:27 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9707142020.AA00478@m-w.com> from "Amy West" at Jul 14, 97 04:20:10 pm Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > What kind of bandwith do you think is needed for a 2500 member > once-a-day announcement list? ISDN sufficient? fractional T-1 necessary? ISDN should suffice unless the daily announcement is HUGE. I run a list with about 500 members on it that often has 100 messages in a day, with just a 33.8K dedicated modem connection to the Internet, and things seldom bog down. You might have to do something to pace things so your MTA doesn't choke, though. -- Mike Nolan From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Jul 14 17:20:47 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA18592 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970427-1) with ESMTP id PAA27750 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:47:16