From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Sep 6 17:25:22 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA07163 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id NAA03057 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hslrswi.hasler.ascom.ch (hslrswi.hasler.ascom.ch [139.79.129.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id HAA20012 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 07:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ens.ascom.ch (chieftain.ens.ascom.ch [139.79.60.1]) by hslrswi.hasler.ascom.ch (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA24107 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:23:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from spbx399.ens.ascom.ch by ens.ascom.ch (4.1/SMI-4.1-DNI-7.0.1) id AA05605; Wed, 3 Sep 97 16:25:33 +0200 Received: from spbx09.ens.ascom.ch by spbx399.ens.ascom.ch (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA20094; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:23:09 +0100 Received: by spbx09.ens.ascom.ch (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA20526; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:23:08 +0100 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:23:08 +0100 From: lewis@ens.ascom.ch (Mark Lewis - Ascom PSD Cardiff UK) Message-Id: <199709031423.PAA20526@spbx09.ens.ascom.ch> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Searching through mail archives and fighting spam... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: J4KXg/roGd2yuj9LpD8HjQ== Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi On the subject of fighting spam I have just installed an email filter (written in Perl) that manages to catch a large amount of the spam that is sent to me. I'm not sure if it would work with majordomo (perhaps some of the workers could advise). The filter came from http://www.nags.org/ and is very easy to install. Cheers Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------ | Mark Lewis | Phone: +44-1222-774501 | | Ascom Telecommunications Ltd | Fax: +44-1222-774500 | | Cypress Drive | Email: lewis@ens.ascom.ch | | Cardiff, CF3 0EG, UK | http://www.ascom.ch/ | ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 7 11:49:02 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA26481 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 11:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id LAA26385 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 11:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slip166-72-107-156.ct.us.ibm.net (slip166-72-107-156.ct.us.ibm.net [166.72.107.156]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA68140; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 18:52:17 GMT From: Mick.Brown@super.zippo.com (Mick Brown) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: "Aliza R. Panitz" , buglady@ability.net Subject: from Aliza Panitz (fwd) Listbombing form letter Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 18:53:29 GMT Organization: me Reply-To: "Aliza R. Panitz" Message-ID: <3413f5a6.1460895@smtp1.ibm.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Aliza has been "list bombed" since she is an antispam advocate. This came from a closed secure list so I have a high degree of certainty that it is her without digging out PGP and installing it. Please check if she has been subscribed to your lists on or after 27 August. Received: (aliza@localhost) by yakko.ability.net (8.7.6/8.6.12) id MAA20831; Sun, 07 Sep 1997 12:15:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Aliza R. Panitz" Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 12:15:49 -0400 (EDT) To: a.couple.of@mailing.lists Message-id: <199709071615.MAA20831@yakko.ability.net> Subject: Listbombing form letter This is the form letter that I'm sending to list owners. Feel free to get out your red pens and suggest improvements. I would appreciate it if someone on the listmanagers list would forward this there; let me know if you can do this, so that it only gets sent once. (With the Reply-To: set to me, please.) My PGP key is available from the MIT keyserver and from my homepage. - Aliza Bcc: Spam-L, Zspam, Trakker, Elbows mailing lists A few other people -- you should know who you are -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On August 28th, 1997, I was mailbombed with several hundred mailing list subscriptions forged in my name. As far as I can tell, your list was one of those. Please remove me from your list. If you were running modern list software with subscription confirmation capabilities this form of attack on me and on your list would not have succeeded. Please consider upgrading your list processing software, since the automated mailbombing scripts that are widely distributed all come with large lists of mailing list addresses -- if I was subscribed to your list by a mailbomber, chances are that many other people will be in the future. As partial protection against this instance of mailbombing, I disabled mail to this account for over a week. Many mailing lists will auto-unsubscribe accounts whose mail bounces repeatedly. Since I am still getting mail from your list, you apparently do not have this feature. You may want to look into adding this feature to your list processor. Unfortunately, most Internet mail software was designed around the model of a cooperative network. With spammers, mailbombers, and forgers widespread and automated, this model no longer works, and everyone's mail systems need to be retrofitted under fire to a higher security model. It is a substantial hassle to all of us, especially people who contribute to the net by running mailing lists and providing other communal resources. In particular, over the past year I have been repeatedly targetted for harassment (by listbombing, by spams forged in my name, and even by threats to the U.S. Congress and President forged in my name) because of my anti-spam position. It appears that I am a target because I have been a co-author of the anti-spam Web site at http://spam.abuse.net/ and because I am a member of CAUCE (The Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial Email at http://www.cauce.org/) - Aliza R. Panitz buglady@ability.net -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNBHF8Jb8iHbdMoM9AQHGJQP/Yc+2awJAbJuzOiQeqIS6+mm7kEX+59xz dN4QkFZ9tW19yvVwOVhjOT0a578ZB+dMnfkBcsS36mfHAXbqgfaydM+ZSqfLBGq0 7vcYK7fJwdp7d30Sr0mU3o8LMmyefKzEHnB8d6gQiIB5RjQik7OUJ3mMbZpnNBAH xNnXmjHYxd0= =zvqn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Aliza R. Panitz http://www.ability.net/~buglady/ buglady@ability.net AccessAbility Internet Services: http://www.ability.net/ (Value-added Web site hosting; Internet Credit Card processing; and more!) //Complete the following: private3@mci.savetrees.com Spammy is to // ethical business practice as Jeffrey Dahmer is to ... // a) contradancing b) window shopping c) bungee jumping d) fine dining. // Spammy and his friends usually reside on AGIS.net // Learn to Clobber SPAM - visit http://spam.abuse.net From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 7 16:18:54 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA23392 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyberq.quality.org (cyberq.quality.org [199.181.80.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id QAA23383 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (help@localhost) by cyberq.quality.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA02104; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 19:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 19:10:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)" To: "Aliza R. Panitz" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, buglady@ability.net Subject: Re: from Aliza Panitz (fwd) Listbombing form letter In-Reply-To: <3413f5a6.1460895@smtp1.ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Nope, not on any of my lists. I employ an authenticator which sends a message to the address purportedly subscribing and requiring them to send back an authentication code within 24 hours before the subscription is processed. This stops the subscription forgeries--unless, of course, one of you other multiple personalities entered the subscription request and all of your personalities have access to your same account. Regards. Bill ============================================================================= Bill Casti, CQA Email: help@quality.org - Domain Owner, QUALITY.ORG Pager: +1 800 604 6149 - List Moderator, "TQM in Manufacturing and Service Industries" - Chairman, Electronic Media Committee & Database Chair ASQ Section 0511 (Northern VA) Section Email: ASQ0511@asq0511.org - 1997-98 Chair-elect, Executive Board, ASQ Section 0511 - Senior Administrator, Internet & Firewall Systems, FEMA - North Point Director, Reston Citizens' Association Board, 1997-98 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- NEW! Browse and Buy from our new Online Quality Bookstore! http://www.quality.org ============================================================================= On Sun, 7 Sep 1997, Mick Brown wrote: > Aliza has been "list bombed" since she is an antispam advocate. This came from a closed secure > list so I have a high degree of certainty that it is her without digging out PGP and installing > it. Please check if she has been subscribed to your lists on or after 27 August. > > Received: (aliza@localhost) by yakko.ability.net (8.7.6/8.6.12) id MAA20831; Sun, 07 Sep 1997 > 12:15:49 -0400 (EDT) > From: "Aliza R. Panitz" > Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 12:15:49 -0400 (EDT) > To: a.couple.of@mailing.lists > Message-id: <199709071615.MAA20831@yakko.ability.net> > Subject: Listbombing form letter > > This is the form letter that I'm sending to list owners. Feel free to > get out your red pens and suggest improvements. > > I would appreciate it if someone on the listmanagers list would forward > this there; let me know if you can do this, so that it only gets sent once. > (With the Reply-To: set to me, please.) > > My PGP key is available from the MIT keyserver and from my homepage. > > - Aliza > > > Bcc: Spam-L, Zspam, Trakker, Elbows mailing lists > A few other people -- you should know who you are > > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 7 20:03:14 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA26136 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sky.net (solar.sky.net [198.70.175.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id UAA26084 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sky (ip68.kc.sky.net [206.230.165.68]) by sky.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA19117 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:06:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970907220833.00710768@solar.sky.net> X-Sender: price@solar.sky.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 22:08:33 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Allen Rice Subject: Re: from Aliza Panitz (fwd) Listbombing form letter In-Reply-To: References: <3413f5a6.1460895@smtp1.ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 07:10 PM 9/7/97 -0400, the following was submitted for consideration by Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator): > >Nope, not on any of my lists. I employ an authenticator which sends a >message to the address purportedly subscribing and requiring them to send >back an authentication code within 24 hours before the subscription is >processed. This stops the subscription forgeries--unless, of course, one >of you other multiple personalities entered the subscription request and >all of your personalities have access to your same account. > >Regards. >Bill > She's not one any of my lists either... But I must point out that there is a way to circumvent the confirmation process... IF whomever was devious enough to list bomb her in the first place is devious enough to carry it through.... All one needs to do is set up one of those emailer accounts with NetAddress or similar free account and mass sub that address, which is temporarily forwarded to your own account. Once all the lists are confirmed, then change the forwarding address to your victims address and you are done. The downside is that you have to reply to all these confirmation messages, but with Eudora and filtering, its relatively easy to do. And big deal that we have a confirmation process in place that prevents someone from being subbed to an unwanted list. If you were list bombed like this person was, you would still have hundreds of confirmation requests to wade through to dig your way out. The problem is not solved by the confirmation process. The ultimate problem is that we do not have a way to confirm in the initial contact message whether the subscription request is valid or not. There needs to be a more secure method up front of subscribing to mailling lists and other services. We, as list owners, should not stop here, but push for advancements in online email security and fraud detection. Now, does anyone have any ideas? Paul ------------------------------------------------------------ (o)(o) Paul Rice > Listowner: CircleJoke and Underground Mailling Lists \/ mailto:PaulRice@Broadcast.net ------------------------------------------------------------ "We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." --Robert Wilensky, University of California From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 7 21:03:16 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA02279 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id UAA02186 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA07768; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:04:47 -0500 (CDT) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: from Aliza Panitz (fwd) Listbombing form letter References: <3413f5a6.1460895@smtp1.ibm.net> <3.0.3.32.19970907220833.00710768@solar.sky.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 07 Sep 1997 23:04:47 -0500 In-Reply-To: Paul Allen Rice's message of Sun, 07 Sep 1997 22:08:33 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 28 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.46/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "PAR" == Paul Allen Rice writes: PAR> All one needs to do is set up one of those emailer accounts with PAR> NetAddress or similar free account and mass sub that address, which is PAR> temporarily forwarded to your own account. Heck, all you need is any UNIX account; you just put the list of people to bomb in the .forward file. PAR> The problem is not solved by the confirmation process. The ultimate PAR> problem is that we do not have a way to confirm in the initial contact PAR> message whether the subscription request is valid or not. There needs PAR> to be a more secure method up front of subscribing to mailling lists PAR> and other services. I don't believe that there's anything you can do that doesn't make things worse for legitimate users. I can start forwarding messages now, from lists I've been on for ages. (And I have had this happen on my lists.) The only partial solutions I can think of are things like waiting periods or forced resubscriptions (after a week or so you must send back a token to remain subscribed). These tend to make it harder on real subscribers. I suppose you could just make the price of admission higher by making potential subscribers scour some introductory document for obscure instructions, but that seems to me to be counterproductive. After all, we want subscribers. If we didn't, we wouldn't be running lists. - J< From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 7 21:33:34 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA06059 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flamingo.bahamas.net.bs ([206.138.16.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id VAA05945 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (dial64.bahamas.net.bs [206.138.17.64]) by flamingo.bahamas.net.bs (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA06659; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:31:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:31:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709080431.AAA06659@flamingo.bahamas.net.bs> X-Sender: iadams@mail.bahamas.net.bs X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Paul Allen Rice , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Irwin Subject: Re: from Aliza Panitz (fwd) Listbombing form letter Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:08 PM 9/7/97 -0500, Paul Allen Rice wrote: >>Nope, not on any of my lists. >>Bill No, she is not on my list .... thanks for the info. By the way, Paul IS right. There is a way to circumvent the confirmation process !! There are some very smart "hackers" out there. Irwin. --------------- Digital Satellite t.v. NO equipment to buy !! Cancel if not satisfied. Professional Development Programs. 24 hours/day .. Less than $10.00/month. Send mailing address for colour brochure. < spectra@cashflow.com > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 7 22:03:15 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA09238 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [199.125.85.28]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id VAA09201 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA26761; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:45:02 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:45:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: Help Desk To: List Managers Subject: Subscription security, tokens, etc (in response to Jason T.) Message-Id: X-Backup: Disable X-Url: http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A complicated idea that would be fairly seamless to the subscriber could consist of a certificate idea based on Netscape implementation of server certificates. If each list had it's own certificate that was received by the subscriber upon subscription. The mailing list software could "ping" each user once a month (or whatever), any capable browser would automatically respond based on the certificate's installed. If the list certificate wasn't installed, the reader would ask the user if they want to install it or be removed from the list. If you wanted to unsubscribe you would remove a certificate from your listing. Just an idea -- and I know it'd be a huge hassle. It wouldn't even solve bounces of unknown users either....so go figure. All that to just make sure the people who are on the list actually want to be on the list. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@webdreams.com | http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 8 04:48:02 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id EAA07169 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 04:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kparker.nai.net (kparker.nai.net [208.133.166.213]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id EAA07145 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 04:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (admin@localhost) by kparker.nai.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA28528 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 07:51:57 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 07:51:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Parker To: List Managers Subject: Re: from Aliza Panitz (fwd) Listbombing form letter In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970907220833.00710768@solar.sky.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 7 Sep 1997, Paul Allen Rice wrote: > The problem is not solved by the confirmation process. The ultimate > problem is that we do not have a way to confirm in the initial contact > message whether the subscription request is valid or not. There needs to > be a more secure method up front of subscribing to mailling lists and other > services. We, as list owners, should not stop here, but push for > advancements in online email security and fraud detection. > > Now, does anyone have any ideas? Some of the messages I've seen people post to list-managers show the sub-scribe[1] request to multitudes of lists at once. Would it be possible for Majordomo, listproc, listserv, etc, to catch when more than one address shows up in the "To:" field (or more than a threshold) and bounce the request to the list admin? Also, if any list software AT ALL supports "sub-scribe all", or "sub-scribe *" (which I've also seen posted), it should be shot! Till later, Ken Parker [1] Dash added to prevent administrivia trap. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 8 23:35:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA22334 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyberq.quality.org (cyberq.quality.org [199.181.80.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id XAA22255 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (help@localhost) by cyberq.quality.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA04385; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 01:48:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 01:48:18 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)" To: Paul Allen Rice cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: from Aliza Panitz (fwd) Listbombing form letter In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970907220833.00710768@solar.sky.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sure, no matter how thorough one is, there will always be a way to circumvent it. I'm not trying to invent the perfect system, just one that works pretty well, most of the time. Bill On Sun, 7 Sep 1997, Paul Allen Rice wrote: > On 07:10 PM 9/7/97 -0400, the following was submitted for consideration by > Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator): > > > > >Nope, not on any of my lists. I employ an authenticator which sends a > >message to the address purportedly subscribing and requiring them to send > >back an authentication code within 24 hours before the subscription is > >processed. This stops the subscription forgeries--unless, of course, one > >of you other multiple personalities entered the subscription request and > >all of your personalities have access to your same account. > > > >Regards. > >Bill > > > > She's not one any of my lists either... > > But I must point out that there is a way to circumvent the confirmation > process... IF whomever was devious enough to list bomb her in the first > place is devious enough to carry it through.... > > All one needs to do is set up one of those emailer accounts with NetAddress > or similar free account and mass sub that address, which is temporarily > forwarded to your own account. Once all the lists are confirmed, then > change the forwarding address to your victims address and you are done. > > The downside is that you have to reply to all these confirmation messages, > but with Eudora and filtering, its relatively easy to do. > > And big deal that we have a confirmation process in place that prevents > someone from being subbed to an unwanted list. If you were list bombed > like this person was, you would still have hundreds of confirmation > requests to wade through to dig your way out. > > The problem is not solved by the confirmation process. The ultimate > problem is that we do not have a way to confirm in the initial contact > message whether the subscription request is valid or not. There needs to > be a more secure method up front of subscribing to mailling lists and other > services. We, as list owners, should not stop here, but push for > advancements in online email security and fraud detection. > > Now, does anyone have any ideas? > > > > Paul > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > (o)(o) Paul Rice > > Listowner: CircleJoke and Underground Mailling Lists > \/ mailto:PaulRice@Broadcast.net > ------------------------------------------------------------ > "We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards > could produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare; now, thanks > to the Internet, we know this is not true." > --Robert Wilensky, University of California > > > > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Sep 9 18:34:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA22961 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 18:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id RAA14681 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id UAA00247 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA33082 ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:52:51 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970907220833.00710768@solar.sky.net> References: <3413f5a6.1460895@smtp1.ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:52:26 -0700 To: Paul Allen Rice , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: mailbomb issues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:08 PM -0700 9/7/97, Paul Allen Rice wrote: >All one needs to do is set up one of those emailer accounts with NetAddress >or similar free account and mass sub that address, which is temporarily >forwarded to your own account. Once all the lists are confirmed, then >change the forwarding address to your victims address and you are done. Anyoner know of a case of this actually happening? Another reason not to trust sites that don't do end-user validation on these accounts very much. I mean, in theory, there should be SOME accountability so that the real owner of an account can be tracked down. I know some sites like Juno don't, but they should. The plus side is that it'd be fairly easy to track down and stomp something like this because the headers will make the situation quite obvious. No, it doesn't stop it, but at least there's a straightforward avenue to attack it (one, go to the admins at that site, and two, filter anything forwarded through that address, the way I filter stuff sent to me from chuqui@netcom.com, since that account has been dead so long all I get is spam and notes on how well netcom's run, even though multiple requests haven't killed the forwarding. grin....) >And big deal that we have a confirmation process in place that prevents >someone from being subbed to an unwanted list. If you were list bombed >like this person was, you would still have hundreds of confirmation >requests to wade through to dig your way out. Um, true. But do you have any suggestions on fixing this? This is no different than the mailbombers who use the info@ addresses and other autobots to mailbomb someone, and frankly, I don't know that there's any real solution, much less an easy one. Given that the situation is insoluble, unless you just plain old shut things down and stop communicating, I think the trick is to minimize collateral damage. Yes, waking up to 100 or 200 authorization requests is pretty painful -- but ti's better than 200 lists in full chatter mode, no? If you have any suggestions on how to fix this problem short of having users call me on the phone to request subscriptions and requiring them to fax me copies of their drivers license, I'm all for it. But I don't think the problem is soluble in a practical way, so I'll settle for keeping my part of the damage to a minimum. If I'm going to have a mail list, I have to have some way of requesting access. Anything I do can be spoofed by a motivated bomber short of (and perhaps even including) pgp-verified e-mail addresses, especialyl if it's that first round of authentification that is considered the problem. Hell, for that matter, let's fix all of those problems, somehow, magically. if I'm a mailbomber, I simply switch to sending stuff out in a way that sends back error messages. Or do I turn off error messages, too? So I've killed my info@, so nobody can figure out what services I run, I can't return an authorization to verify they want the list, and I can't send them an error message if they get it wrong, because all of these can be abused by a mailbomber... In other words, if we worry about anything that can be abused, we just pack up and go home. So unless someone has ideas, I'll minimize the damage. One authorization request is better than 50 messages from a busy list, and I'm building new mailbots for info@ and the like that won't return infinite amounts of mail, but will throttle if they sense some kind of possible attack. Perfect? No, but if I can't stop spammers, I don't have to make it easy. And that's good enough for now, given the technologies we work with... Because I'm not ready to pack it in and go home, which would be a real victory for the spammers. >There needs to >be a more secure method up front of subscribing to mailling lists and other >services. We, as list owners, should not stop here, but push for >advancements in online email security and fraud detection. > >Now, does anyone have any ideas? Hey, I'm open to suggestions. But I think the real answer is a way of validating addresses, not trying to endlessly close holes in software that has to make assumptions on the address validity that might not be true -- because the latter won't work. We can't close the holes, only make them smaller. Until you can look at an address and guarantee it came from where it says it did, all we're doing is minimizing collateral damage, not solving the problem. So if you really want to fix this, focus on ways of building addresses that won't successfully be forged, and convincing the net to adopt them. Good luck.... (grin) chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 11 16:16:07 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA07986 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id PAA07924 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21384 ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:43:14 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9709100837.aa28230@pcusa01.ecunet.org> References: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Sep 7, 97 08:52:26 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:31:00 -0700 To: "Merrill Cook" , chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: mailbomb issues... Cc: PaulRice@Broadcast.Net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:37 AM -0700 9/10/97, Merrill Cook wrote: >Is there a way to make them work? Or to use PGP-signed requests in >such a way that we can be sure they came from the email address >they claim as their own? A request can be PGP-signed, and verified against a public key stored on one of the key servers set up for that. > How can we be sure that some third party >didn't obtain the certificate or sign the request? That'd require taking someone's private key AND the activator password. If they have that, then being signed up to mail lists is the least of your problems.... -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 11 16:20:14 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA06081 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id PAA05988 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yeah.indstate.edu (yeah.indstate.edu [139.102.195.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id WAA13107 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by yeah.indstate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA21024 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:46:28 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:46:28 -0500 (CDT) From: "J. Neil Doane" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Majordomo Automation? In-Reply-To: <199709110513.WAA10077@honor.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello all. Just wondering if ther is any way to achieve some measure of automation in the creation of majordomo lists? Are there any scripts out there for such a thing? Neil Doane Ps. I'm not a subscriber to this list, so if you reply could you please 'cc' me on it. :) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 11 16:28:58 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA05074 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id PAA04915 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcusa80.pcusa.org (pcusa80.pcusa.org [206.115.64.80]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id FAA28271 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 05:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcusa01.ecunet.org by pcusa80.pcusa.org id aa22862; 10 Sep 97 8:37 EDT Subject: Re: mailbomb issues... To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:37:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Merrill Cook" Cc: PaulRice@Broadcast.Net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Sep 7, 97 08:52:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9709100837.aa28230@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think that's why some people are touting RSA or Verisign-type "certificates". Is there a way to make them work? Or to use PGP-signed requests in such a way that we can be sure they came from the email address they claim as their own? How can we be sure that some third party didn't obtain the certificate or sign the request? I hate to give Verisign more business, but if it can guarantee that one of its certificates can only be used by the rightful owner of a particular email address, maybe that is worth paying for. The PGP solution of getting trusted third parties to sign public keys might work, but maintaining a large enough key ring for general public lists sounds like a daunting task. >From Chuq Von Rospach: > > Hey, I'm open to suggestions. But I think the real answer is a way of > validating addresses, not trying to endlessly close holes in software -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org http://www.pcusa.org/ -+- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 11 17:05:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA23245 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id QAA23221 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id QAA26218; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA14459; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 19:03:17 -0500 (CDT) To: "J. Neil Doane" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Majordomo Automation? References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 11 Sep 1997 19:03:17 -0500 In-Reply-To: "J. Neil Doane"'s message of Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:46:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.46/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "JND" == J Neil Doane writes: JND> Hello all. Just wondering if ther is any way to achieve some measure JND> of automation in the creation of majordomo lists? There are plenty; you might want to look through the majordomo-users list archive at . Majordomo-users is a much better place to check for Majordomo information. - J< From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 11 19:08:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA11106 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id PAA02239 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id VAA03493 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flying_fish1 (flying_fish2.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.26]) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA28519 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:47:55 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970909235145.00eb6b24@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 23:51:45 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: mailbomb issues... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19970907220833.00710768@solar.sky.net> <3413f5a6.1460895@smtp1.ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:52 PM 07/09/97 -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >At 8:08 PM -0700 9/7/97, Paul Allen Rice wrote: > >>All one needs to do is set up one of those emailer accounts with NetAddress >>or similar free account and mass sub that address, which is temporarily >>forwarded to your own account. Once all the lists are confirmed, then >>change the forwarding address to your victims address and you are done. > >Anyoner know of a case of this actually happening? I have had NetAddress accounts s*bscribe to my lists for just this purpose, and it has happened several times. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 11 21:05:50 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA11992 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id UAA11876 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA21558 ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:55:50 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970909235145.00eb6b24@armchair.mb.ca> References: <3.0.3.32.19970907220833.00710768@solar.sky.net> <3413f5a6.1460895@smtp1.ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:53:51 -0700 To: Dave Voorhis , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: mailbomb issues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:51 PM -0700 9/9/97, Dave Voorhis wrote: >>Anyoner know of a case of this actually happening? > >I have had NetAddress accounts s*bscribe to my lists for just this purpose, >and it has happened several times. Well, thanks. Something else to watch for, I guess. So far, either I've been lucky or nobody's told me, and given how people like to yell when someone gets spammed... chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 11 21:19:15 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA12311 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id UAA12240 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA25378 ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:55:29 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9709112022.aa08168@pcusa01.ecunet.org> References: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Sep 11, 97 03:31:00 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:45:27 -0700 To: "Merrill Cook" , chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: mailbomb issues... Cc: chuqui@plaidworks.com, PaulRice@Broadcast.Net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:22 PM -0700 9/11/97, Merrill Cook wrote: >Naw. Suppose I make myself a new private key, and say I'm Chuq Von >Rospach, and assign my own pass phrase to it. Then I register the >public key in some key repository, after making sure there wasn't >another there with that name. Shortly after you do that, someone who knows me will warn me, and... >but I guess the question is, how quickly will that break >down, without a central repository of validation (like Verisign) >or much wider acceptance of PGP? Well, even without the central authorization, it'll break down a lot slower than the current system, if only because there are better checks and balances and a higher level of sophistication necessary successfully pull off a forgery. Beyond that, I think you're about to see the acceptance of PGP take off. With the IETF working towards the PGP/MIME authentification standard, and the S/MIME version somewhat out of favor (or depending on who you talk to, dead or doing just fine), there will within the next year be a standard for encryption of mail messages using PGP, and probably also RSA once the S/MIME gets back on track. But PGP is almost a given. ONce the standard is in place, adoption will move forward pretty quickly. That PGP has now legally migrated off continent will also help, because the Europeans don't have to skulk any more to keep Americans from getting in trouble with the government... And your forgery setup is somewhat contrived. It assumes, for instance, that I (and/or my list software) will blindly accept this. If it's signed by a trusted source, it probably will, but just because you find a crony to sign it doesn't mean I'll believe the crony, either. More likely, if I get a questionable request, I'll go looking for the public key on the site of the e-mail address. If the key isn't in a repository that's known/trusted, like the one pgpkeys.mit.edu runs, I'll go back to the source. So just creating a spoofed key does you nothing, because it'll be tagged with the e-mail address, and I"ll go to that site/address to get the public key. So you need physical access to the account to spoof, too, and if you have that, we once again hit the "spammed onto lists is the least of their problems" issue. If you try to toss in a key for my address on a major key repository, it isn't likely to go long without being caught, and it requires someone in *my* chain of trusted validators to break down and validate it incorrectly. Doesn't matter how many of your guys validate it, unless one of them is also my guy, so again, I'm in control of my own quality-of-key-control, not you. And for an unknown key without a trusted validation, I just go to the source and/or fall back on mailback validation, so without a validated key, you haven't accomplished anything. Can you still coerce it? Sure. But the bar has been raised a lot, lot higher, the chance of catching it is a lot better, your chance of exposure is higher, and while it's not a 100% solution, I'll take a 95% solution, especially if what we have now is a 30% solution... No sense waiting for perfection, if pretty-damn-good is available. >How many of the 40 million (?) >potential members of your list worldwide will be able to get their >public key signed by someone you trust, or by someone less than >three or four steps from someone you trust? Probably more than you think, for this reason: one of the people I expect to become a "signer of keys" will be the site admin/postmaster/etc, and once I validate a *site*, I can then by default validate anyone on that site, as long as that site's key is valid and attached. So I don't need to validate every bloody user on AOL or Earthlink or netcom or whatever. I just need to validate the netcom connection, and then use their validation as acceptable for users ON THEIR SITE. And only on their site. And it's to their advantage to do this, and do it securely, because otherwise they risk creating problems for their users -- wanna have to explain to people why lists won't let them subscribe because they refuse to accept keys from that site? It runs close to the UDP uunet ran into on usenet over the netnews spam stuff, only worse -- if list managers revoke fred.net's key because of shoddy or corrupt validations, then that effectively locks fred.net off of any part of the net needing validation, and the users who get locked out will leave or force things to get fixed. So for huge parts of the net, the answer is actually pretty easy, once the standard is adopted, the software starts supporting it and sites start acting as key validator/librarian for their users. It's not overnight, but it's sure doable, and it should be quite secure. Much better than anything we're currently doing, that's for sure. >My guess is we'll be tempted to accept something that uses a >signed public key, even if we don't know any of the signers. It's up to each admin, of course, but shoddy practices give shoddy results. YOU might be tempted to accept it, and you can with my blessings and best wishes. But don't generalize... (grin). >Is there any list software >(or protocol) for handling signed requests? Any mail Nope. But as I noted above, those standards are just now being worked on. We're talking about Majordomo 3.0 (or 3.5) here, not 1.94.8. But then, if you don't start thinking about stuff, it never gets implemented... It all starts somewhere. Six months ago, encryption was just a future. Now, it's an emerging technology. In another year, it'll be fairly common, heading towards endemic. Now is the time to get a feel for what it can do, so a year from now we can know HOW to do what we want and start standardizing the interfaces and interactions, and hopefully get the server and client sides more or less moving together in unison... > Any list software that will use LDAP, for that matter? Not that I know of, but LDAP's still emerging, and it's unclear if it's going to win, or be the end-all technology. We'll see how well its adopted and how well it works, and if it makes sense, it'll get plugged in... -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Sep 12 17:07:22 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA29190 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id QAA29182 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id RAA28344 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcusa80.pcusa.org by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id RAA26381; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcusa01.ecunet.org by pcusa80.pcusa.org id aa04320; 11 Sep 97 20:22 EDT Subject: Re: mailbomb issues... To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:22:48 -0400 (EDT) From: "Merrill Cook" Cc: chuqui@plaidworks.com, PaulRice@Broadcast.Net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Sep 11, 97 03:31:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9709112022.aa08168@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From Chuq Von Rospach: > > > How can we be sure that some third party > >didn't obtain the certificate or sign the request? > > That'd require taking someone's private key AND the activator password. > If they have that, then being signed up to mail lists is the least of > your problems.... Naw. Suppose I make myself a new private key, and say I'm Chuq Von Rospach, and assign my own pass phrase to it. Then I register the public key in some key repository, after making sure there wasn't another there with that name. I could even find a couple of gullible people to sign it, most likely. Will list software let me subscribe your mail address on the basis of a public key in a public key server, with a couple of signatures on it? Sure, you could require that the signed subscribe request refer to a public key that is signed by other people that the automated list software's routines can trust, e.g. people already on your list, or people whose keys are signed by other people you already trust -- but I guess the question is, how quickly will that break down, without a central repository of validation (like Verisign) or much wider acceptance of PGP? How many of the 40 million (?) potential members of your list worldwide will be able to get their public key signed by someone you trust, or by someone less than three or four steps from someone you trust? Can your list manager manage a public key ring big enough to validate even a small portion of the potential general subscriber potential? My guess is we'll be tempted to accept something that uses a signed public key, even if we don't know any of the signers. Supposing all the people you would want on your list have certificates or signed public keys that you trust -- that you all belong to a big organization, and someone else has taken care of signing things or issuing certificates. Is there any list software (or protocol) for handling signed requests? Any mail software that will use the certificates or keys to submit requests? (We have a hard enough time getting people to send a subscribe request properly, without telling them they have to manually sign it too. ) Any list software that will use LDAP, for that matter? -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org http://www.pcusa.org/ -+- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Sep 12 17:36:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA03134 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id RAA03060 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA10161; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:31:55 -0500 (CDT) To: "Merrill Cook" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: mailbomb issues... References: <9709112022.aa08168@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 12 Sep 1997 19:31:54 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Merrill Cook"'s message of Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:22:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.46/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "MC" == Merrill Cook writes: MC> Any list software that will use LDAP, for that matter? If someone tells me just how LDAP is supposed to be used and what benefits it will have, and if that LDAP module for Perl matures a bit, I'll see what I can do. I'm still not sure how trusting some directory server somewhere makes things more secure. Isn't trusting a directory server the same thing as trusting a key server? - J< From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 10:39:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA28853 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fobos.ulpgc.es (fobos.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id KAA28830 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cicei.ulpgc.es (cicei.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.20]) by fobos.ulpgc.es (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA16956 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:40:27 +0100 Received: from CICEI/SpoolDir by cicei.ulpgc.es (Mercury 1.31); 14 Sep 97 18:35:39 GMT Received: from SpoolDir by CICEI (Mercury 1.31); 14 Sep 97 18:35:33 GMT From: "Aldo-Pier Solari" Organization: Univ. de Las Palmas de G.C. To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:35:26 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: <2DDA582F8D@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all. I would like to query Senior list owners on the following issues (please, reply to the list or, privately, as you see fit). Due to a highly conflictive situation (which I'd define as the 'technician's dictatorship' and a few ethical issues as well) I have dismissed my old service provider (the Swedish University Network, SUNET). While I informed my former systems operator that I would migrate FISH-ECOLOGY (Scandinavia's/SUNET's largest list and the largest worldwide in it's field), my rights to access the server were recalled (I was 'served out') so I could not migrate the list, porpperly, to the new provider (the MIT). Furthermore, I requested (eleven times) the list be discontinued once it became operational at the MIT but my former systems operator (now, supported by his boss) refused to do so. Now, I have suggested the following: - *I* own the (intrinsic) intellectual rights to FISH-ECOLOGY which became, due to my work, Internet's largest medium on fish research; - FISH-ECOLOGY existed due to *my* work during several years and *I* have the right to choose whatever ISP I wish on whatever grounds I may see fit; - *I* own the right to the name (which *I* created); - SUNET has to, entirely, *delete* the lists of scientists subscribed to FISH-ECOLOGY as it is now operational at another machine under other rules; SUNET can start their own lists on whatever issue they wish but *neither* using the name nor the distribution list of my medium (which has other ISP, now); However, at SUNET, the boss suggests the following: - It is SUNET who own's the rights to all services they give [while their LISTSERV service has *never* been officially acknowledged/supported] and, hence, they refuse to close down the list at the older server, dupping the medium and creating havoc among subscribers when they receive the 1 message/week sent to the older site by someone who missed the information on the migration; This later has implied that academic activities thru LISTSERV at SUNET depend entirely on the arbitray behaviour of the technician: An autocracy which, definitely, leads to strange/undesired/unscholar situations such as this one. Some background information: I started FISH-ECOLOGY at the Canadian Dept. of Fisheries and Oceans (August 1994) and moved it to SUNET (Sept. 1994) due to technical problems. At that time, when I attempted to migrate FISH-ECOLOGY to SUNET, the canadian sysop refused to allow the migration and created similar problems as now SUNET is doing. While that conflict was going on, SUNET's view (by way of my former sysop at SUNET) was as follows: - A list exists due to the list owner's work; - The owner has the right to migrate or do whatever s/he wishes with the list. However, as SUNET is now dismissed (due to repetitive insults, threats and academic hostility among other more complex aspects which I'll not go into detail here), they take the same position as the former sysop at the aforementioned canadian institution. My requests to SUNET (which have been dismissed) were as follows: - Discontinue FISH-ECOLOGY, FISH-JUNIOR, FFRESEARCH-CONTENTS and FFREPORTS-NEWS: All of these were my works, my initiatives and the support from the Senior scientist community and FAO came about due to *my* initiative and work; - Delete all subscriptions to the services above; - SUNET's free to start new similar services if they get the needed personnel & know-how, contacts, etc. but DO NOT USE the serivice names I created because they now have other service providers. SUNET has refused to do so. I would like to know your opinions. If there is any comission where I may inform about this , please, let me know. I see this as a kind of *piracy* but such unethical behaviour is praxis at SUNET, an institution with a clear academic-hostile policy. You may reply to me at: SOLARIS@CICEI.ULPGC.ES Thank you, Aldo-Pier Solari/list owner FISH-ECOLOGY at MITVMA.MIT.EDU ******************************************************************* FISH-ECOLOGY: New addresses from Sept. 1997 and on. Please, print. ******************************************************************* Server (to un/subscribe): LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU The conference: FISH-ECOLOGY@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Requests: FISH-ECOLOGY-REQUEST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU ******************************************************************* ---- Aldo-PierSolari , Fish.Res.Gr./ULP Home-page: http://www.ulpgc.es/usuarios/solaris/index.html PGPKey ID: 0xFDD1FD36 -- IWillNotFailThoseWithWhomIServe ---- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 13:06:43 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA19284 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id MAA19235 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA29974 ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:49:32 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2DDA582F8D@cicei.ulpgc.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:49:20 -0700 To: "Aldo-Pier Solari" , LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:35 AM -0700 9/14/97, Aldo-Pier Solari wrote: >Now, I have suggested the following: Some good arguments. >However, at SUNET, the boss suggests the following: Also some good arguments. >This later has implied that academic activities thru LISTSERV at >SUNET depend entirely on the arbitray behaviour of the technician: >An autocracy which, definitely, leads to strange/undesired/unscholar >situations such as this one. Well, I hate to ask you this but... What was your formal agreement with the site on who owns what? What is their formal policy? Is there any? Probably not, right? Generally not. So... it all comes down to a couple of issues: o Possession is 90% of the law, so to speak, and they have possesssion. o If you don't like this, it comes down to how much you're willing to fight, and wehther you can either out-stubborn them or out-legal them. Is this something you're willing to throw money and lawyers at? You may be right. But unless you had a formal agreement laying out the issue, and you're willing to spend the time and money to prove it, being right will give you a warm feeling in your heart, and not much more.... And even if you had a formal agreement, it's only as useful as your willingness to force them to abide by it. And frankly, down that road there's probably no real winners. Better to work to build up the new stuff and learn from the issue. Figure out how to avoid getting in this situation again. Find some of your old subscribers and have them shill your new list -- a few well-placed "They kicked him out and grabbed his list, but he's over on this other list now, and I'm following!" will get the word out to your old list, andt he ones that care will move. They can keep the list, they can't force the subscribers to stay. You probably shouldn't go on encourage mass exodus, but they can't force other normal users not to do so. And if they try, that's to your benefit. And good luck. This stuff ain't fun. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 13:51:59 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id NAA29130 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (kristeva.postmodern.com [198.102.244.54]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id NAA29058 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 198.102.244.52 (foucault.postmodern.com [198.102.244.52]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-960422) with ESMTP id NAA08386; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <341C4ED3.E0781F2A@postmodern.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:53:44 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01a (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM CC: Aldo-Pier Solari Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <2DDA582F8D@cicei.ulpgc.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The intellectual property rights in a mailing list or newsgroup distribution are murky at best, but it's not really so much a legal issue as a practical/technical one. The traditional solution to this problem has been to set up a new, competing list at a new site, and then wage an aggressive campaign to get the subscribers to move over. Assuming the old host has no proprietary rights in the name, you can continue to use it. Set up the new list, and send a mailing to the old list stating that it has moved, and how to subscribe. You may also be able to obtain a copy of the list from the list processor itself. I disagree with Chuq about not encouraging mass defection -- if you don't, there will be a longer period of chaos during which there are two competing lists. Your mission is to make sure that everybody knows about the new list, which might include sending an auto-reply to all postings to the old list, advising that the list has been moved, etc. If you are barred from posting to the old list, get someone on the list to do it for you. A periodic posting advising of the new location might be useful as well. Also, do a search engine search for all mentions of the list on the Web and other resources, including newsgroups and the list archiving and list-of-lists services like reference.com or tile.com. Send an update to all these sites stating that the list has moved; no need to mention the controversy -- after all you are the official list owner, no? In short, the old site might have "possession" of the list, but by good marketing, you can make that an empty vessel, and after a while even the most intransigent and hidebound institution will probably throw in the towel. A parallel strategy might be to escalate your complaint to the University/network's governing board. Public universities, especially in Europe, and their research arms, tend to have many layers of bureaucracy, ombudsmen, research committees, faculty bodies etc. Hit 'em all with some paperwork -- you don't need a lawyer. Good luck-- -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 14:08:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA02084 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id OAA02047 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:00:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA13725 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:08:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA21912 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:08:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:08:47 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please In-Reply-To: <2DDA582F8D@cicei.ulpgc.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The situation you describe is very odd. If I were a listowner who wanted to move my mailing list to another server, I would probably just move the list without even consulting the old service provider. The list belongs to the listowner. If the listowner decides to move, it's none of the service provider's business. If you paying for the server, you may have to continue to pay the old service provider for the duration of the contract period. I use listproc and I'm not familiar with details of other mailing list software. With listproc, it's fairly strait forward for a listowner to get a copy of the subscribers list, install the subscriber list on another server and then delete the subscriber list on the old listproc. It would be fairly simple to make several announcements to the list directing the subscribers to the new server address. After posting notices for a week or so, start the new server and kill the subscriber list on the old server. I provide listproc services for about three dozen lists which are run by about two dozen listowners. If one of my listowners decided to move his list to another service provider, that is the listowner's business. I can't imagine trying to hijack a mailing list from a listowner. The listowner designs, builds, manages, and promotes the mailing list. Typically, the server only provides is some CPU time, disk space and Internet bandwidth. A mailing list doesn't belong to the service provider. I'm not sure what you can do about the old service provider continuing to operate your list and using your list name. If you pursue the matter in court, it will probably cost a lot of money and take a lot of time. Without a contract, the outcome in court is uncertain. For the moment, I would announce the new list address, install the established subscriber list on the new server and continue operations on the new server. Without the support of both the subscribers and a good listowner, the old list will eventually wither and die. - murr - From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 15:06:46 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA10732 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fobos.ulpgc.es (fobos.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id PAA10682 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cicei.ulpgc.es (cicei.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.20]) by fobos.ulpgc.es (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA18495 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:16:14 +0100 Received: from CICEI/SpoolDir by cicei.ulpgc.es (Mercury 1.31); 14 Sep 97 23:11:24 GMT Received: from SpoolDir by CICEI (Mercury 1.31); 14 Sep 97 23:11:18 GMT From: "Aldo-Pier Solari" Organization: Univ. de Las Palmas de G.C. To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:11:18 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: <3272B643E6@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all and many thanks for the feed back I'm receiving. It is highly valuable. Some more information which may be valuable to evaluate the situation could be (perhaps I was not sufficiently clear in my first message) the following: * I started FISH-ECOLOGY (FE) at the Canadian DFO; * I moved from the DFO to SUNET due to technical (machine) reasons; * As the sysop at the DFO refused to migrate the list, SUNET's view was: 'The owner may do with the list whatever s/he may see fit'; 'The list exists due to the owner's work; * SUNET is a public money run institution; * I did not pay anything for the service at SUNET (I'm a Swedish academic doing a phd for a Swedish U. in an exchange with a Spanish U., that's why I could run FE in SUNET's machines for over 3 yr.s); * SUNET has never recognized officially it's LISTSERV service; (i.e. list hosting does not exist at SUNET) [due to this, SUNET cannot claim any rights over FE in case they'd like to overrun copyright conventions]; * I had the up-to-date review of FE; * FE is up&running at the MIT, now; * The list at the old site remains operative but it is dead: SUNET has refused to close down the FE site: They seem to attempt to show that I was kicked away - not that I dismissed SUNET due to academic hostility and other ethical issues (not technical reasons); Questions: - Isnt there an intrinsic copyright to a medium's name (and distribution list) which belongs to the owner ? - On what grounds is an 'owner' defined as such ? - What does 'list owner' mean ? Is it defined by the law ? - Is there any Internet comission where I may put forward this issue ? I do not fear loosing the medium. It is now up&running and the fish research community knows me well. However, I would like to force SUNET to skip using the FISH-ECOLOGY name and to kill the members list which was left at the old server, as well. Lots of time and efforts go to build up a succesfull forum and such 'coup-de-etats' by the technicians should be hardly condemned. This is an important issue to all list owners, I believe. Finally, if anyone has the review of the LSTOWN-L@SEARN.SUNET.SE list, please, send me a copy. I've been served out from that server, the list has gone moderated and there's no way to review it. All of this was due to the problem described in both of my mails: The aim is to cut me off from contacting LISTSERV list managers because that list is run by my former sysop, the one who is doing all of this mess. It is not the first time sysops make trouble on arbitrary grounds. They know better than anyone that this 'vapor-ware' (and things that happen in cyberspace) are difficult to prove. That's why very strange situations may arise: A technician's dictatorship, beyond any academic or even institutional control when ethics go bad to worse. Thank you, APS/list owner FISH-ECOLOGY ******************************************************************* FISH-ECOLOGY: New addresses from Sept. 1997 and on. Please, print. ******************************************************************* Server (to un/subscribe): LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU The conference: FISH-ECOLOGY@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Requests: FISH-ECOLOGY-REQUEST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU ******************************************************************* ---- Aldo-PierSolari , Fish.Res.Gr./ULP Home-page: http://www.ulpgc.es/usuarios/solaris/index.html PGPKey ID: 0xFDD1FD36 -- IWillNotFailThoseWithWhomIServe ---- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 15:22:20 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA11439 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id PAA11425 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27632 ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:16:05 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <341C4ED3.E0781F2A@postmodern.com> References: <2DDA582F8D@cicei.ulpgc.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:08:15 -0700 To: mcb@postmodern.com, LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please Cc: Aldo-Pier Solari Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:53 PM -0700 9/14/97, Michael C. Berch wrote: >I disagree with Chuq about not >encouraging mass defection -- if you don't, there will be a longer period of >chaos during which there are two competing lists. Not as much as you might think. I would encourage it, but I'd have someone else do it. Since the administration at the old site has already decided to be twerps about this and take a confrontative stance, I don't want to do anything to encourage them to get even nastier. That's why I'd ask some friends I trust to do it and not do it directly. it's not because I'm against it, it's because I'd rather avoid them getting even more stupid in my direction. >Also, do a search engine search for all mentions of the list on the Web and >other resources, including newsgroups and the list archiving and list-of-lists >services like reference.com or tile.com. Send an update to all these sites >stating that the list has moved; no need to mention the controversy -- after >all you are the official list owner, no? Nice point! -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 15:36:33 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA11844 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id PAA11815 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709142211.PAA11815@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <6.74948423@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 0:19:12 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 4474; Mon, 15 Sep 97 00:18:27 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 4910; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:18:27 +0200 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:14:17 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:35:26 GMT from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:35:26 GMT Aldo-Pier Solari said: Aldo, we at SUNET are really tired of this stupid little slandering fest that you are indulging in. I have no option but to correct all your factual disinformation until you stop doing this or my management decides to bring this in a courtroom. >While I informed my former systems operator that I would migrate >FISH-ECOLOGY (Scandinavia's/SUNET's largest list and the largest >worldwide in it's field), my rights to access the server were recalled >(I was 'served out') so I could not migrate the list, porpperly, to the >new provider (the MIT). Furthermore, I requested (eleven times) the list >be discontinued once it became operational at the MIT Actually, you requested ten times that the list be discontinued in spite of the fact that you did NOT have a new host for it (not counting the hosts that you claimed to have but who, once contacted, said that they had absolutely no plans to take over your list and wondered who had told you otherwise). We refused because we would not be doing our jobs if we allowed a valuable Internet resource which saves money for the Swedish government (which is SUNET's purpose in life) to be shut down just because one particular scientist would rather burn it than let "them" have it. SUNET works for the Swedish scientific *community*, not for the private personal vendettas of any individual scientist. We do not delete useful lists without a new host, period. You then made an 11th request after having found a new host that was actually confirmed to be a willing host. This is your first "valid" request. My boss's answer, I believe, was that SUNET does not take orders from you and would do as SUNET felt was appropriate. You threatened a lawsuit again and my boss told you to go ahead and sue us. There may have been more messages that I did not see, did not read carefully enough, etc. *My* answer to this 11th request was that I would recommend migrating the SUNET list to MIT. You are thus fully aware of the fact that SUNET intends, pending formal approval, to migrate the list to your new host, based on certain procedural considerations which are not relevant and none of your business. This decision, however, is made purely in the users' interests and does not have the beginning of anything to do with your demands, legal threats, etc. Which is what my boss was telling you: SUNET couldn't care less what Aldo Solari wants or does not want. SUNET does not work for Aldo Solari, but for the scientific community. For the umpteenth time, after the grave accusations and threats that you have made, SUNET has reached the decision to essentially cut all bridges with you. SUNET is no longer willing to let you use SUNET servers and, having reached a final decision at the highest level of management concerning your case and numerous demands, SUNET is no longer interested in listening to the orders that you keep sending and sending and sending, because nobody at SUNET is going to disobey orders just because Aldo Solari sent a 53rd demand. It is just as my boss told you, SUNET will do what SUNET sees fit to do based on SUNET's own rules and policies. > - FISH-ECOLOGY existed due to *my* work during several years and *I* > have the right to choose whatever ISP I wish on whatever grounds I > may see fit; Except that SUNET has never been your (or anyone's) "ISP", and you have never been SUNET's customer. This little distinction is the key to the whole issue and probably the reason why the people who have responded so far were so puzzled by the situation. Over the years, SUNET contributed several hundred thousand dollars' worth of computer equipment (that's the FRACTION of our mainframe used up by FISH-ECOLOGY), bandwidth, manpower and related services to your list, at no charge to you. You have not been a customer and SUNET has not been a provider, it was a partnership. You have provided hundreds or perhaps even thousands of hours of work at the $7/hour that I imagine you make as a grad student in Mallorca. The fact is, SUNET's contribution was enormous compared to yours, and here you are talking as if you had been sending your money to SUNET for all these years and had just decided to select another firm to provide the services. And let's not start a discussion about what it would cost *today* to run the list. What matters is what it actually cost SUNET to run the list over the course of its existence, based on the equipment that SUNET chose to use for its mailing list service, including a mainframe that was purchased in 1989 when there was no other option and upgraded in 1992 when there was no credible alternative. The fact of the matter is that the Swedish government has spent a little fortune making FISH-ECOLOGY a reality. Then one day Aldo Solari got upset and wished to delete the list in spite of not having a new host for it. Not only that, but he started to make legal threats. He said it was illegal for SUNET not to delete the list, and threatened to sue the government. Well, when a government spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on something and someone suddenly claims that the government is acting illegally and there is some law that says they must shut down the service immediately or a costly lawsuit will ensue, chances are that the government will react based almost exclusively on the merit of the legal claim. > - *I* own the right to the name (which *I* created); Yes, yes, we know, you own the FISH-ECOLOGY trademark and we are using it illegally. We got a good laugh out of that one. Try looking up "trade" in your dictionary :-) And I won't even go into the likelihood of getting "fish-ecology" registered as a trademark for the provision of services related to fish ecology. > - SUNET has to, entirely, *delete* the lists of scientists > subscribed to FISH-ECOLOGY as it is now operational at another > machine under other rules; Look, trying to make an ethical issue out of what is simply a legal response to a series of legal threats is not going to do anyone any good. Lawyers do not care about discussions held on "the list-managers list", whatever that might be, unless slander is involved. If you think you have a legal leg to stand on, hire a lawyer and sue the government. If not, accept SUNET's decision. If you don't like the turn this has taken, try not making legal threats to the government the next time. >This later has implied that academic activities thru LISTSERV at SUNET >depend entirely on the arbitray behaviour of the technician: I wonder how many more times I will have to repeat that this went to the highest level of management, who are definitely not "technicians". >However, as SUNET is now dismissed (due to repetitive insults, threats >and academic hostility among other more complex aspects which I'll not >go into detail here), You know, that's a good one. After writing to SUNET management to formally accuse a SUNET employee of (I don't know the exact English terms) misuse of government funds and resources for private gain, and abuse of governmental authority for private gain (all things which, per your own letter, are "very serious accusations" - and indeed they are), recommending the termination of that person and his replacement with a committee of professors, all that, needless to say, without the beginning of any proof, I think you need some nerve to talk about "threats" and "hostility" :-) You seem to have a problem understanding that there are various shades of gray in life, not just black and white. "Look, I already said no once, I'm telling you no once again, next time it will be 'get lost!'" is hostility, but it is no big deal and perfectly legal. Writing to people's management with false accusations that carry jail sentences is also hostility, but it is a lot more serious and illegal. Likewise, telling a government employee who refuses to disobey orders from his management in spite of repeated demands that he has "asked for it" and you are coming over to where he lives to "fix things up" is a serious and illegal threat. Eric From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 17:17:17 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA26105 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 16:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id QAA26068 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 16:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709142353.QAA26068@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <1.AC238296@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 2:00:58 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 4720; Mon, 15 Sep 97 02:00:14 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 5432; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:00:14 +0200 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:20:47 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:11:18 GMT from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:11:18 GMT Aldo-Pier Solari said: > (I'm a Swedish academic doing a phd for a Swedish U. in an > exchange with a Spanish U., that's why I could run FE in > SUNET's machines for over 3 yr.s); To clarify, you were allowed to run the list because it was useful. Being affiliated with a Swedish university does not give one any kind of automatic right to run free lists at SUNET, it merely makes it more likely that the request will be accepted. Some of our lists are actually run by unaffiliated list owners. > * SUNET has never recognized officially it's LISTSERV service; > (i.e. list hosting does not exist at SUNET) [due to this, > SUNET cannot claim any rights over FE in case they'd like to > overrun copyright conventions]; I don't see how internal SUNET budgeting issues could possibly be relevant to copyright law, but you seem to know a lot more than I do about law ;-) > - Isnt there an intrinsic copyright to a medium's name You cannot copyright a name. > - On what grounds is an 'owner' defined as such ? Technically, an owner is a person to whom the organization running the list server is delegating certain technical privileges (right to add and delete users, right to change list parameters, etc). These privileges are usually a subset of the privileges delegated to the employee(s) in charge of running the server (right to create new lists, etc). This part of the equation is factual and can be established to a high degree of technical detail. Then there is the "intangible" role of the list owner as the person who drives the discussion forward, etc. This is a gray area. > - What does 'list owner' mean ? Is it defined by the law ? Not unless a formal agreement was made between the two parties. It is much too gray an area to be able to say much beyond the factual considerations listed above. >However, I would like to force SUNET to skip using the FISH-ECOLOGY name >and to kill the members list You can't, so you're wasting your time, especially as this is what SUNET is planning to do anyway. >Lots of time and efforts go to build up a succesfull forum Ah, what's a few hundred thousand dollars between friends? :-) >Finally, if anyone has the review of the LSTOWN-L@SEARN.SUNET.SE >list, please, send me a copy. I've been served out from that >server, the list has gone moderated and there's no way to review it. >All of this was due to the problem described in both of my mails: >The aim is to cut me off from contacting LISTSERV list managers >because that list is run by my former sysop, the one who is doing >all of this mess. I hate to interject some facts, but the list went to REVIEW for new subscribers months ago when we discovered that AOL was using it as a sample for its "how to subscribe" instructions, and dozens of clueless users were whining that they thought this was a list about basketball. I did not approve your message because it was slanderous and approving it would have created all sorts of problems: 1. Explicit approval of the use of government resources to slander the government. 2. Implicit approval of the statements made, as their publication has been reviewed and approved by a government employee. This could (in the sense that I don't know if it does or doesn't) turn into a serious problem if we should decide to take the issue to court. 3. We had decided to serve you off from all our servers, so actually, the proper course of action was to serve off your new address. It is interesting to note that, while you are telling the world that you own FISH-ECOLOGY and cannot believe that SUNET does not recognize your right to retain full control over all aspects of the list, at the same time you are asking for assistance in preventing a third party from retaining control of a mailing list that you do not have the beginning of any involvement with. Your logic escapes me. Over the years, you have kicked hundreds of people out of FISH-ECOLOGY, and when they appealed you just told them "Can't you accept that you have been DISMISSED from the list, this is permanent, it is MY list", etc. And at least half of them were kicked out on grounds that were THAT close to personal disagreements. Easily half of the mail I had to process for the SUNET mailing list service were complaints from people who had been unfairly kicked out of your list, and in some cases I had no option but to override you and put them back. But now that YOU got kicked out, it is suddenly different and accepting it is not an option. Say, why don't you just ask MIT to start a SUNET-BASHING list? I would be willing to announce the list on LSTOWN-L so that interested parties may join. Anyway, the bottom line is that this discussion is not going to change the law in Sweden. If you want to change laws, you need to follow the normal democratic process and contact someone who can put in a bill, etc. No, this cannot be done by e-mail. Either way, by the time you are done, and assuming things go according to plan, the list will have been transferred to MIT and SUNET will have formally transferred all the associated rights to MIT, in writing, including the right to have to deal with you. MIT will legally own the list and US laws will apply. MIT runs the list on a much more expensive mainframe than the one SUNET used and the costs are going to be even higher than at SUNET. On top of that, US law is more money-centric than Swedish law, so you will "own" the list even less, which I think is a good thing, because there are 1791 other scientists contributing to it (the overwhelming majority of which have more knowledge and seniority than you do) and you are standing here taking all the credit and claiming this is all YOUR work and YOUR decision, like the opinion of the 1791 others is irrelevant. Did you pause to think how much time they will have to waste now that the WWW interface is gone? Nope, you just announced that the list had to move, period. You were by far the most impatient list owner where the WWW interface was concerned. You said it was extremely important to your list, would save so many people so much time, WHY wasn't SUNET willing to activate it before the hardware upgrade, etc. Now 1791 people will have to do without it because Aldo Solari picked up a personal fight with the guy who runs the service at SUNET, which everyone was perfectly happy with. One of the reasons I recommended migrating to MIT is that there are TWO co-owners on that list, and you will no longer be the king of the hill. I think this will lead to a big improvement for the 1791 scientists who couldn't care less about whether Aldo Solari thinks Eric Thomas is the Antechrist and who are just trying to get their work done. Eric From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 17:37:34 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA29840 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fobos.ulpgc.es (fobos.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id RAA29807 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cicei.ulpgc.es (cicei.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.20]) by fobos.ulpgc.es (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA19143 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:39:30 +0100 Received: from CICEI/SpoolDir by cicei.ulpgc.es (Mercury 1.31); 15 Sep 97 01:34:39 GMT Received: from SpoolDir by CICEI (Mercury 1.31); 15 Sep 97 01:34:22 GMT From: "Aldo-Pier Solari" Organization: Univ. de Las Palmas de G.C. To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:34:15 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: <34D5182C16@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ] From: Eric Thomas : ] factual disinformation until you stop doing this or my management decides ] to bring this in a courtroom. A good term: 'disinformation'. Make good use of it :-). If anywhere, people in this forum are used to process lots of information and I'm sure they'll analyze quite well how you (and I) use terminology. Thing is *you*, on arbitrary grounds, are harassing a list owner (who's dismissed your service on ethical grounds - not technical) and *violating* copyright conventions, as well. And courtroom ?: You could end up in jail if you go to a court room :-) Let's no go into details, your SUNET-LSoft manouvers are not a matter for this list. ] Actually, you requested ten times that the list be discontinued in spite ] of the fact that you did NOT have a new host for it (not counting the ] hosts that you claimed to have but who, once contacted, said that they ] had absolutely no plans to take over your list and wondered who had told ] you otherwise). Not true. Check out MITVMA.MIT.EDU: FISH-ECOLOGY is operative at the new host and it has been so since a week ago. 9 out of the 11 times I requested FISH-ECOLOGY being closed down at SUNET were after - I had the new host; and - it was denied all of the 11 times: (a) SUNET cannot have any rigths on neither the name 'FISH-ECOLOGY' nor on the distribution list because (a') SUNET has not any official list hosting, it has refused, several times, to acknowledge such a service; and (a'') *I* created and maintained the medium at the DFO, moved it to SUNET and, now, to the MIT. You've got to stop harassing list owners on arbitrary grounds as well as stoping this clear violation of the intrinsic copyright you've defended elsewhere (when it came close to your interests). ]We refused because we would not be doing our jobs if we allowed a ]valuable Internet resource which saves money for the Swedish ]government FISH-ECOLOGY is a good conference, no doubt. But you *do not have any rights whatsoever to controll it. It is *not* your medium and you have to kill both name and list of distribution with a QUIET DEL command: Stop harassing my membership and creating this havoc. ](which is SUNET's purpose in life) to be shut down just because one ]particular scientist would rather burn it than let "them" have it. Well, a god phrase from the VietNam War but it doent apply to this situation: Firstly, I am not just 'a paricular scientist': I have created and maintained and made FISH-ECOLOGY what is is and, secondly, I AM FREE to choose the ISP I may see fit on whatever grounds I may have. You *do not* have any rights to take over anything: What you are attempting to do is robbery, a clear *violation* of copy right conventions. And you do this because you end up believing you can control everything, like many other sysops :-). ]SUNET works for the Swedish scientific *community*, not for the ]private personal vendettas of any individual scientist. We do not ]delete useful lists without a new host, period. 'Vendetta', another key word :-). Not a vendetta, Mr. Thomas: You have just been dismissed as a sysop. That's all. Take gracefully as you once said to the canadian sysop when I moved FISH-ECOLOGY from the DFO to SUNET. Thing's you try to keep control over such things because without them you're a manpower surplus :-). ] You threatened a ] lawsuit again and my boss told you to go ahead and sue us. Yes, I did. And I visited the Swedish Consul in Spain concerning this issue. I have all intellectual rights conventions behind. ] *My* answer to this 11th request was that I would recommend migrating the ] SUNET list to MIT. Well, what a position shift :-) Amazing ... just amazing the power of public fora such as LIST-MANAGERS :-). ]You are thus fully aware of the fact that SUNET intends, pending ]formal approval, to migrate the list to your new host, based on ]certain procedural considerations which are not relevant and none of ]your business. This decision, however, is made purely in the users' ]interests and does not have the beginning of anything to do with ]your demands, legal threats, etc. Well, good for you. You just gave Swedish academia AND the whole of the country a hit under the belt before the eyes of the marine scientific community. Would you like to watch 500 mails concerning this ? :-) ]SUNET does not work for Aldo Solari, but for the scientific ]community. Yes, that's why they treat academics (and their 'valuable' work) as a kind of non-existent garbage :-). You do a goebbelian use of words :-) ] SUNET has reached the decision to essentially cut all bridges with ] you. Excuse me, *I* have decided to cut all bridges with SUNET as long as *you* remain there. *You* were dismissed. Do not attempt to show to the world *I* was the dismissed: That was your aim to not discontinue the old site. But you had to: The old site is stone dead :-). Technically, you're very good but ethically you've proven what you are worth :-). ] Over the years, SUNET contributed ... The famous last 100 Propaganda words :-) ] The fact is, SUNET's contribution was enormous compared to yours, Another amazing argument :-). Hey, I never thought FISH-ECOLOGY would be so important :-) ] The fact of the matter is that the Swedish government has spent a little ] fortune making FISH-ECOLOGY a reality. Amazing, I never thought SUNET cared so much about FISH-ECOLOGY :-). For a week ago, it led: 'you are a non-existent phd student in a non-existent place with a non-existent list called fish-ecology' :-). ]Then one day Aldo Solari got upset and wished to delete the list in ]spite of not having a new host for it. Not true. Just check out MITVMA.MIT.EDU :-) ] and threatened to sue the government. Haha, not the government but you. Come down from the horse. Nobody's going to take you seriously of you argue that way :-). Unless you believe you are 'the government' :-) or that you are somewhere above the law & copyright conventions. ] Yes, yes, we know, you own the FISH-ECOLOGY trademark [...] Not a trade mark. Lists are media and they have intrinsic copyrights such as any email or whatever. All in all (to end up with this): Kill both name, site and distribution list: Do not confuse my subscribers and take it gracefully. I'm sure other list owner will learn out of this. I have another academic site hosting my services. Finally: I'll publicly acknowledge your good technical capacity. However, being a professional, nowdays, takes more than writing down commands :-). Cheers, Aldo-P. Solari/list owner FISH-ECOLOGY ******************************************************************* FISH-ECOLOGY: New addresses from Sept. 1997 and on. Please, print. ******************************************************************* Server (to un/subscribe): LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU The conference: FISH-ECOLOGY@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Requests: FISH-ECOLOGY-REQUEST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU ******************************************************************* ---- Aldo-PierSolari , Fish.Res.Gr./ULP Home-page: http://www.ulpgc.es/usuarios/solaris/index.html PGPKey ID: 0xFDD1FD36 -- IWillNotFailThoseWithWhomIServe ---- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 18:06:41 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA02377 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sky.net (solar.sky.net [198.70.175.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id RAA02351 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sky (ip20.kc.sky.net [206.230.165.20]) by sky.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA16648 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:06:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970914200321.007202b4@solar.sky.net> X-Sender: price@solar.sky.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:03:21 -0500 To: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Allen Rice Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please In-Reply-To: <34D5182C16@cicei.ulpgc.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Now that both sides have made comments can we move on? This is obviously no longer a discussion for the list. Paul ------------------------------------------------------------ (o)(o) Paul Rice > Listowner: CircleJoke and Underground Mailling Lists \/ mailto:PaulRice@Broadcast.net ------------------------------------------------------------ "We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." --Robert Wilensky, University of California ------------------------------------------------------------ Support the anti-Spam amendment, go to http://www.cauce.org From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 18:21:48 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA03582 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (kristeva.postmodern.com [198.102.244.54]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id SAA03567 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 198.102.244.52 (foucault.postmodern.com [198.102.244.52]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-960422) with ESMTP id SAA08962; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <341C8C52.BE24AC36@postmodern.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:16:06 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01a (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709142353.QAA26068@honor.greatcircle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk There's just one part of this that caused me to spit my afternoon coffee all over the keyboard -- when someone (referring to SUNET) mentioned "hundreds of thousands of dollars" and (referring to MIT) "a more expensive mainframe to host the list". Um... a list with 1791 members, even if quite active, would hardly cause even a low-end Pentium to breathe hard. Am I missing something? I do know that LISTSERV is probably the world's most expensive list processing software :-), but aren't we off by a couple orders of magnitude here? (By the way, I was manager of the facility which hosted the grant-funded BIONET mailing lists and newsgroups from 1989-1993, and have a pretty good idea of how much the internal cost of this sort of thing runs, and unless there's something particularly odd about FISH-ECOLOGY, I have no idea where those hundreds of thousands are supposed to have gone.) -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 18:28:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA04569 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id SAA04507 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709150117.SAA04507@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <11.6B77E028@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 3:25:03 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 4973; Mon, 15 Sep 97 03:24:20 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 5948; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 03:24:20 +0200 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:51:39 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:34:15 GMT from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:34:15 GMT Aldo-Pier Solari said: Aldo, I have no desire to have a *discussion* about this, but there are a few more *facts* I need to correct: >Not true. Check out MITVMA.MIT.EDU: FISH-ECOLOGY is operative at the new >host Yes. >and it has been so since a week ago. No, the first test message was from 'Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:14:26 EDT', ie 3 days ago. Either way it does not matter, because you did not tell us where the new host was until yesterday, and we do not read people's minds. During the first 10 requests, we either knew or believed that you had no host. >You've got to stop harassing list owners on arbitrary grounds as >well as stoping this clear violation of the intrinsic copyright >you've defended elsewhere (when it came close to your interests). As I know that names cannot be copyrighted, I highly doubt that I ever defended this theory elsewhere. Even if I had, I can assure you that the boss of the boss of my boss's boss did not. >Thing's you try to keep control over such things because without them >you're a manpower surplus :-). Right, without FISH-ECOLOGY I will be waiting in unemployment lines and starving :-) >] *My* answer to this 11th request was that I would recommend migrating >the >] SUNET list to MIT. > >Well, what a position shift :-) Amazing ... just amazing the power >of public fora such as LIST-MANAGERS :-). I told you about this decision in a message dated 'Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:27:11 +0200'. That was long before you made use of "the power of LIST-MANAGERS". >] and threatened to sue the government. > >Haha, not the government but you. Come down from the horse. >Nobody's going to take you seriously of you argue that way :-). >Unless you believe you are 'the government' :-) or that you are >somewhere above the law & copyright conventions. Aldo, you have never threatened to sue me personally, nor would you have any grounds since the decisions you object to were made by my management, but please, I don't want to be holding you. Just hire a lawyer and do it. Since I will soon be waiting in unemployment lines, I will never be able to afford a good lawyer and I am sure to lose! Eric From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 18:53:41 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA05131 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kira.ici.net (kira.ici.net [207.180.0.37]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id SAA05113 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klingon.ici.net (lbm@klingon [207.180.0.40]) by kira.ici.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA24883 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:31:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (lbm@localhost) by klingon.ici.net (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA20991 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:31:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: klingon.ici.net: lbm owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:31:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Linda B. Merims" X-Sender: lbm@klingon To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: FISH-ECOLOGY Controversy In-Reply-To: <199709150037.RAA00901@honor.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric, after reading the discussion on this matter from both your and Aldo's point of view, it is my considered opinion as a list owner that you are a perfect shit. Not to mention a thief. Linda B. Merims lbm@ici.net Massachusetts, USA From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 18:56:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA06769 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id SAA06731 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jane.smoe.org (jeffw@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26552; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:50:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4-daemon-mode-relay2) id VAA26258; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:51:42 -0400 Message-ID: <19970914215141.24120@smoe.org> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:51:41 -0400 From: Jeff Wasilko To: Eric Thomas Cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please References: <199709150117.SAA04507@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199709150117.SAA04507@honor.greatcircle.com>; from "Eric Thomas" on Mon, Sep 15, 1997 at 02:51:39AM +0200 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 15, 1997 at 02:51:39AM +0200, Eric Thomas wrote: > On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:34:15 GMT Aldo-Pier Solari > said: > > Aldo, I have no desire to have a *discussion* about this, but there are a > few more *facts* I need to correct: Would you please be kind enough to take this to private mail? There's no reason to expose all of list-managers to your disagreement. Jeff From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 18:56:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA05910 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blackhole.dimensional.com (blackhole.dimensional.com [208.206.176.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id SAA05873 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flatland.dimensional.com (tedsmith@flatland.dimensional.com [208.206.176.24]) by blackhole.dimensional.com (8.8.7/8.8.nospam) with SMTP id TAA20450; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:39:31 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:39:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Theodore M Smith To: Eric Thomas cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please In-Reply-To: <199709142353.QAA26068@honor.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Eric Thomas wrote: > I > did not approve your message because it was slanderous and approving it > would have created all sorts of problems: > > 1. Explicit approval of the use of government resources to slander the > government. Hmmmmm. Now that statement _is_ a bit interesting. I for one certainly hope that in all the many places government resources support listservs or other places for exchange of information, that doesn't give government employees the idea of censoring statements they deem "slanderous." Particularly because in one way or another a great deal of the internet could be deemed to be "government resources." Ted Smith Denver, Colorado USA From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 18:56:51 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA05913 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fobos.ulpgc.es (fobos.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id SAA05861 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cicei.ulpgc.es (cicei.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.20]) by fobos.ulpgc.es (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA19388 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:43:25 +0100 Received: from CICEI/SpoolDir by cicei.ulpgc.es (Mercury 1.31); 15 Sep 97 02:38:34 GMT Received: from SpoolDir by CICEI (Mercury 1.31); 15 Sep 97 02:38:11 GMT From: "Aldo-Pier Solari" Organization: Univ. de Las Palmas de G.C. To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:38:07 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: <35E565389B@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ] From: Eric Thomas : Well, this will be my last message in reply to Mr. Thomas. As you see, he has high toughts of list owner's work & efforts :-) Mr. Thomas shifts his own definitions on what a list owner is depending on his interests :-). OK, that's expected when someone is between the sword and the wall. ] You cannot copyright a name. No, that's why you have copyrighted the name LISTSERV :-) ] Technically, an owner is a person to whom the organization running the ] list server is delegating certain technical privileges Yes, Mr. Thomas: A list owner is someone you let add&del but the medium which s/he created is yours because you print it in your electronic offset: You are saying 'my dad own's all of the magazines he prints at his office' :-) and he lets the magazine staff add&del lines :-). Looking at your Catalist copyright notice I do not find the same philosphy. Be coeherent, please :-). ] Then there is the "intangible" role of the list owner as the person who ] drives the discussion forward, etc. This is a gray area. Yes, and in this 'gray area' you decide what is right&worng, dont you ? :-) ] You can't, so you're wasting your time, especially as this is what SUNET ] is planning to do anyway. Better so to everyone. You thought you could override a list owner as you, normally, override hardware :-). ] Ah, what's a few hundred thousand dollars between friends? :-) Hey, I never thought FISH-ECOLOGY would be so much worth. In your earlier message you said this list used just a tiny part of the resources. Now, you attempt to sell the idea that the list costed 'hundreds of thousand dollars'. Do you believe people will buy this ? :-) ] It is interesting to note that, while you are telling the world that you ] own FISH-ECOLOGY and cannot believe that SUNET does not recognize your ] right to retain full control over all aspects of the list, at the same ] time you are asking for assistance in preventing a third party from ] retaining control of a mailing list that you do not have the beginning of ] any involvement with. No, I just asked for the review of the LSTOWN-L list :-). I have not attempted to gain any control over your list. Now, if you believe that talking privately to listserv owners means 'gaining control' over your list, that's another thing :-) ] Over the years, you have kicked hundreds of people out of ] FISH-ECOLOGY ... hehe. Now the list was badly managed ? :-). Why is it the largest in the world ? :-). I just kicked around 10 users (7 commercial spammers, 3 academic) in exactly 3 years. All those kicked persons attempted to have my list closed down and my academic life wasted and, yes, naturally, all of them expressed they were unfairly kicked :-). The list became successful due to my policy (which came about thru a compilation of list owners opinions both at this forum and at LSTOWN-L when I was viciously attacked by those persons when I hardly knew how to send an email :-). If there are logs from 1994 to this forum, part of the material may be found there. Even Mr. Thoma's thought about list owning and copy right, something radically different from what he's saying now :-). I submitted my policy to MITVMA, the new co-owner (FISH-ECOLOGY member for years) AND the responsible at their data center: No one had a single point of view on the policy. It was accepted :-). ]But now that YOU got kicked out, it is suddenly different and ]accepting it is not an option. That's what you attempt to show because you cannot accept a list owner did dismiss your technical know-how on ethical grounds. You see, people are not idiots like you use to day. I moved my list somewhere else, *you* were kicked :-). Now, you opinions is shifted because the older site is stone dead :-). ] just ask MIT to start a SUNET-BASHING list? FISH-ECOLOGY is for fish research, not to bash you there :-). You are not so important in the marine research community :-) but you've got something fishy, for sure :-). However, as I have a policy of transparency with my subscribers, I'll keep them informed on whether someone (you ?) will harass them attempting to create havoc among them (that's why you did not close down the site while you knew it was operative at another site). Tomorrow, you'll be getting thousands of unsub commands, at the older site, dont worry :-). ] Either way, by the time you are done, and assuming things go according to ] plan, the list will have been transferred to MIT and SUNET ... hehe, as far as I know, the list has been at the MIT for a few days, already. You dont decide nothing on my medium: Learn it and take it gracefully. You have to learn that list owners cannt be overridden like you do with your boxes :-). ] formally transferred all the associated rights to MIT hehe, you do not have any rights over FISH-ECOLOGY. ] including the right to have to deal with you. Yes, you can do whatever you like. But, I assume, there, you decide nothing either :-). ]Did you pause to think how much time they will have to waste now ]that the WWW interface is gone? SUNET refused to let me move the logs :-). Anyway, you had already lost 2 years of logs (+ software repository + duzins of ebooks, papers, etc.) in a crash ... we can always start again. The know-how is there. FE doesnt need you :-). ] Now 1791 people will have to do without it because Aldo Solari picked up ] a personal fight with the guy who runs the service at SUNET No personal fight. You attempted to destroy my medium and lost the game. The RATIONALE of all this, as I see it, is that a list is a medium and the owner has copyright conventions and membership behind. You're not the 'anti-christ' but just a programmer with little human knowledge and keyboard ethics :-) Cheers, APS/list owner FISH-ECOLOGY ******************************************************************* FISH-ECOLOGY: New addresses from Sept. 1997 and on. Please, print. ******************************************************************* Server (to un/subscribe): LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU The conference: FISH-ECOLOGY@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Requests: FISH-ECOLOGY-REQUEST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU ******************************************************************* ---- Aldo-PierSolari , Fish.Res.Gr./ULP Home-page: http://www.ulpgc.es/usuarios/solaris/index.html PGPKey ID: 0xFDD1FD36 -- IWillNotFailThoseWithWhomIServe ---- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 19:23:58 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA08207 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id TAA08190 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA22596 ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:10:01 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970914200321.007202b4@solar.sky.net> References: <34D5182C16@cicei.ulpgc.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:55:24 -0700 To: Paul Allen Rice , LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:03 PM -0700 9/14/97, Paul Allen Rice wrote: >Now that both sides have made comments can we move on? This is obviously >no longer a discussion for the list. But it is a great example of why I tell people to settle out these details at the beginning... (grin) chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 19:51:47 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA08778 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id TAA08743 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709150211.TAA08743@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <15.F2BFDFDE@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 4:18:57 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 5093; Mon, 15 Sep 97 04:18:13 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 6200; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 04:18:13 +0200 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 03:42:04 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Government censorship issues To: Theodore M Smith cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:39:31 -0600 (MDT) from Theodore M Smith Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:39:31 -0600 (MDT) Theodore M Smith said: > I for one certainly hope that in all the many places government >resources support listservs or other places for exchange of information, >that doesn't give government employees the idea of censoring statements >they deem "slanderous." Particularly because in one way or another a >great deal of the internet could be deemed to be "government resources." Quite frankly, I don't know what the official policy would be. I prefer unmoderated lists and I had just never been put in a position where I had to explicitly approve the processing of a message which slandered the government and whose publication would be funded by the government. It did not sound like something that I should do without making sure it did not violate some rule. If the list had been totally unmoderated, it would not have been a problem. If the policy is that we take all postings, we take all postings. If the policy is that I have to review them and decide which ones are "appropriate", well, it becomes more delicate. Furthermore, I would not have any problem with "approving" material that simply expresses negative views. What stopped me is that I felt a lawyer would probably consider the message to be slander. This is the first time I have this problem in 7 years and I think it was an exceptional case. This being said, I have heard of lists migrating to commercial providers because they wished to openly criticize the government, and this was not possible on a State-funded university. This was in the US. Eric From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 19:52:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA10404 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oronet.com.ph (cgy.oronet.com.ph [203.172.19.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id TAA10397 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by oronet.com.ph (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA27137; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:52:31 +0800 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:52:31 +0800 (HKT) From: Jessie Christopher E Lagrosas X-Sender: jessie@cgy To: Eric Thomas cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please In-Reply-To: <199709150117.SAA04507@honor.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think you guys have gone too far ... Isnt it just right for you to create another list for such a discussion ? I would appreciate reading more about MAILING LISTS' technicalities than that of the legality of it.(Though it is important) But it seems that the discussion for the FISH ECOLOGY have gone beyond and not fit for LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM. thankx From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 19:59:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA11378 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yoss.canweb.net (yoss.canweb.net [207.139.235.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id TAA11369 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (yossman@localhost) by yoss.canweb.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA25943 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:50:10 -0400 (EDT) From: yossman To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: hi there Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk i'm having a devil of a time setting up a digest version of a list i already have running. i'm fairly certain i'm just missing something 'simple' that just isn't intuitively coming to me. unfortunately the documentation on the subject isn't exactly wonderful. it appears to be missing some key element. i have all the aliases set up in /etc/aliases for digested versions of a 'test' list i have set up, but how does this test-digest list build the mail for processing? where does it get it's input from? where does the output go? it doesn't seem to be automatic when you post to just 'test'? i've scoured the Net for FAQs on the matter, and i've read Doc/README, Doc/README.digest, quick-digest-setup, even some online stuff i found in the newsgroups, NOTHING tells me the mechanics behind how this really works, at least not in enough detail that is actually helpful. it doesn't help the 'digest' feature seems to be an after-thought, and that most people aren't willing to even get into it until majordomo supports it internally, which doesn't help me at all of course. i'd appreciate any help, including pointers to better places to ask or read more about it. yossman ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Yossarian Holmberg (yossman) yossman@yossman.org System Administrator, National Online http://www.yossman.org/ my statements are my own, not my employer's -- i do not speak for them. '... and if i die, before i learn to speak .. can money pay for all the days i've lived awake but half asleep?' -- Primitive Radio Gods, "Standing Outside a Broken Phone Booth With Money In My Hand" From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 20:51:51 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA24202 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fobos.ulpgc.es (fobos.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id UAA18826 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:21:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cicei.ulpgc.es (cicei.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.20]) by fobos.ulpgc.es (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA19729; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 04:32:29 +0100 Received: from CICEI/SpoolDir by cicei.ulpgc.es (Mercury 1.31); 15 Sep 97 04:27:37 GMT Received: from SpoolDir by CICEI (Mercury 1.31); 15 Sep 97 04:27:24 GMT From: "Aldo-Pier Solari" Organization: Univ. de Las Palmas de G.C. To: Jessie Christopher E Lagrosas , LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 04:27:15 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: <37B76A715D@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ] From: Jessie Christopher E Lagrosas : ]But it seems that the discussion for the FISH ECOLOGY have gone ]beyond and not fit for LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM. Well, I am sorry for the part that concerns me. With my initial message, I attempted to find a wider knowledge base to deal with this problem. However, you should consider the following situation: 1. A list owner has been overrun by a dismissed sysop; 2. The list owner comes to a forum for list owners to put forward the issue (without mentioning any names); 3. The offending party comes to the list, sets up a good flame war and many of the members (and the owner as well) request the discussion is stopped (and it is). This *may be* the intention in creating the havoc: That the issue is not discussed. You see, systems operators are well aware of list mechanics and how some terminology (i.e. 'vendetta', 'sue the government' and such expressions) hit readers. They know what phrases will lead to a flame war and to the intervention of the list owner. I've seen this before. Cheers, APS/list owner FISH-ECOLOGY ******************************************************************* FISH-ECOLOGY: New addresses from Sept. 1997 and on. Please, print. ******************************************************************* Server (to un/subscribe): LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU The conference: FISH-ECOLOGY@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Requests: FISH-ECOLOGY-REQUEST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU ******************************************************************* ---- Aldo-PierSolari , Fish.Res.Gr./ULP Home-page: http://www.ulpgc.es/usuarios/solaris/index.html PGPKey ID: 0xFDD1FD36 -- IWillNotFailThoseWithWhomIServe ---- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 20:57:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA13951 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id TAA13807 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dfl@localhost) by panix.com (8.8.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id XAA21478 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:03:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Danny Lieberman Message-Id: <199709150303.XAA21478@panix.com> Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (List Managers) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:03:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Would you please be kind enough to take this to private mail? > There's no reason to expose all of list-managers to your disagreement. Actually, aside from my inner-rubbernecker wanting to watch the rest of this car-crash, I think there's something we can learn from this. After reading Aldo and Eric's first back and forth my first thought was about how lucky I am to have the list-host that I am using. Anyway glad to see that this list isn't completely dead! -- Danny Lieberman dfl@panix.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 21:02:27 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA23901 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id UAA23894 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA31292 ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:54:20 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35E565389B@cicei.ulpgc.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:43:45 -0700 To: "Aldo-Pier Solari" , LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:38 PM -0700 9/14/97, Aldo-Pier Solari wrote: >] You cannot copyright a name. > >No, that's why you have copyrighted the name LISTSERV :-) they haven't. It's trademarked, not copyrighted. Aldo, if you don't know that much about how this stuff works, please shut up and quit proving it to us. Frankly, BOTH sides of this are too busy grinding axes and posturing for anyone to figure out which side, if any, is right. And I, for one, have already stopped caring. Can some list mom please get these people to carry on their pissing match in private? -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 21:07:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA26509 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (kristeva.postmodern.com [198.102.244.54]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id UAA26493 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 198.102.244.52 (foucault.postmodern.com [198.102.244.52]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-960422) with ESMTP id VAA09266; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <341CB410.5A61C692@postmodern.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:05:45 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01a (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: yossman CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: hi there X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk yossman wrote: > [Majordomo digest question] > > i'd appreciate any help, including pointers to better places to ask or > read more about it. The Majordomo-Users mailing list (majordomo-users@greatcircle.com). I believe at present that you need to be a member to post, in any case it's a good place for Majordomo admins to hang out and ask/answer questions. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 21:08:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA13428 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id TAA13368 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:53:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709150253.TAA13368@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <10.EDA33A54@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 5:01:45 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 5271; Mon, 15 Sep 97 05:01:01 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 6568; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 05:01:00 +0200 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 04:18:27 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: FISH-ECOLOGY Controversy To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, "Linda B. Merims" In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:31:53 -0400 (EDT) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:31:53 -0400 (EDT) "Linda B. Merims" said: >Eric, after reading the discussion on this matter from both your and >Aldo's point of view, it is my considered opinion as a list owner that >you are a perfect shit. > >Not to mention a thief. Thank you Linda. It is comforting to see that name-calling is the best you could produce. You know, sometimes it can be difficult to do your job and keep your loyalties straight. FISH-ECOLOGY is a prime example. There just aren't adequate enough words in the English language to express how little personal interest I have in this list. I do not understand what they discuss, I do not even like fish, none of the people in my profession (or in related professions) have heard about the list. I know two fish scientists, of which I have met none. I run 94 other lists, of which the most popular (and most well known) is LANTRA-L, by a big factor. LANTRA-L, now THAT's a list I have some personal interest in. It is about translation and sometimes I browse the archives and find it quite interesting. As for my job, not only is there more than enough to justify my continued assignment even with the 30 largest lists removed, but I worry about losing it about as often as government employees usually do. Which is irrelevant, because the Internet field offers much better employment safety than any government :-) So as far as my personal little world is concerned, if Neptune threw a tantrum tomorrow and burned all the fish related lists to a crisp the world over, I would not even blink. Just don't burn the interesting lists, ok? I would have deleted FISH-ECOLOGY a couple years ago when Aldo started sending more questions per unit of time than I like to receive from any single list owner, and today I would not be called names. I would be a complete jerk if I acted like that, of course, which is why I don't. I always set personal considerations aside when I do my job, and I always do my best to do it well. My job in this respect was to protect my employer's investment in a list which saves my employer a lot of money. I realize that this may sound like an evil corporate plot the way I wrote it, but my employer's money is the taxpayers' money. This is actually one of the reasons I accepted the job, we are saving goobs of taxpayer money by reducing FAX and phone usage and replacing it with Internet lines, and that has always made me happy, on a personal level. So when Aldo asked me to delete the list in spite of not having a new host, I went against my personal desires and did not delete it, and my boss confirmed that this was what I had to do. At my other job, where we also ran a web site for Aldo, I deleted all the files the moment Aldo said he was moving the web site elsewhere. Two minutes later, I reiterated to him that the SUNET lists were not going anywhere until my management had given me new orders. Same person, different jobs, different rules. Eric From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 21:13:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA19245 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id UAA18994 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id UAA02871; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709150324.UAA02871@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <11.CAF55448@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 5:29:25 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 5434; Mon, 15 Sep 97 05:28:41 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 6909; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 05:28:41 +0200 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 05:01:13 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please To: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:38:07 GMT from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:38:07 GMT Aldo-Pier Solari said: >Well, this will be my last message in reply to Mr. Thomas. Good, then it is the last time I am required to correct your factual inaccuracies. >] You cannot copyright a name. > >No, that's why you have copyrighted the name LISTSERV :-) No, it is a trademark. You cannot copyright a word and you cannot get a trademark unless there is some TRADE going on, which is not the case with FISH-ECOLOGY. >Looking at your Catalist copyright notice I do not find the same >philosphy. Be coeherent, please :-). CataList is not a list, it is a piece of software and data to go with it, both of which can be copyrighted. It does not have the beginning of anything to do with this discussion. >Hey, I never thought FISH-ECOLOGY would be so much worth. In your >earlier message you said this list used just a tiny part of the >resources. Yes, this is correct. You are perfectly aware of the fact that SUNET bought a MUCH faster machine last year, which also cost a lot less than the mainframe we had before. I must have like 50 messages from you demanding to know how much faster the machine would be, when it would arrive, etc. >Now, you attempt to sell the idea that the list costed 'hundreds of >thousand dollars'. The list started on the mainframe, as you know, and it was a pretty big fraction of the mainframe's limited capacity, as you also know because you kept complaining about performance. That mainframe had cost a little fortune and you were using a pretty big fraction of it for 2-3 years. Now we have a box that is like 10 times faster and you are using a pretty big fraction of 1/10th of it. What exactly is inconsistent? >All those kicked persons attempted to have my list closed down and my >academic life wasted I remember spending about 20h defending you and writing memos to my bosses saying that, in spite of some valid points, the complaint should be dismissed because the list was useful. I received 800 e-mail messages just for this one complaint and I was really happy to have to set my personal feelings aside and save the list when I could just have written a quick memo saying I felt the complaints had merit and let my management nuke it. Thank you for reminding me. >That's what you attempt to show because you cannot accept a list owner >did dismiss your technical know-how on ethical grounds. Aldo, I could not care less about this! :-) If ANY list owner at SUNET wants to find a new host at a competent site where I don't have to worry about users complaining that the list no longer works and why did SUNET delete it without warning and so on, I am willing to migrate them! It means LESS WORK for me and MORE RESOURCES for others! >SUNET refused to let me move the logs :-) This is completely inaccurate. Neither you nor MIT have ever asked for the logs to be moved, and moving the logs is actually one of my requirements to MIT in order for SUNET to migrate the list. >No personal fight. You attempted to destroy my medium By refusing to delete it, I know... Eric From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 21:37:06 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA01651 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id VAA01593 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709150432.VAA01593@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <8.BBA90FD9@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 6:40:34 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 5609; Mon, 15 Sep 97 06:39:50 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 7286; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 06:39:51 +0200 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 05:29:14 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please To: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM, "Michael C. Berch" In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:16:06 -0700 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:16:06 -0700 "Michael C. Berch" said: >Um... a list with 1791 members, even if quite active, would hardly cause >even a low-end Pentium to breathe hard. Right, but in 1989, when SUNET started all this, you couldn't buy a low-end Pentium. I don't want to start an endless religio-historical discussion :-), but for a variety of reasons, many of which had nothing to do with mailing lists, SUNET bought a mainframe in 1989. This machine's main purpose was to run the central EARN site for Nordic countries, and it also hosted mailing lists. Initially the mailing lists were like 2% of the resources, but this increased with time until it came to be the main resource drain in 1994 or so. The machine was in operation from 1989 to 1996, at which point SUNET bought a dedicated server for the mailing list service. Believe it or not, it made perfect sense financially :-) The mainframe was required anyway for reasons unrelated to the mailing lists, so the issue was whether to pay for upgrades or buy a box on the side for the mailing list service (and migrate everything, retrain the users, etc). The upgrade would come with a year of free maintenance, whereas not upgrading would dramatically increase maintenance costs after a year. Nowadays you can get a very fast box for $3k or so and it will have a faster CPU than a mainframe, but not so long ago it was more like $50k if you wanted it to match the mainframe's CPU, and you can triple that easily for manpower (given tax levels in Sweden). Either way, the maintenance contracts would kill you eventually, so upgrading saved money. Bean counters and lawyers would calculate FISH-ECOLOGY costs by multiplying the running, upgrade and (amortized) acquisition costs of the machine over the period being considered by the fraction of the CPU time that was used by the list, and then add bandwidth, manpower, etc. Based on what I know, and on a report said bean counters made the year I was employed and which stated that the cost of employing me was a figure that was about 3 times my salary before withdrawal (a LOT of this was employment tax of course, Sweden being Sweden, but still), they should end up with six figures. I remember asking my boss how the bean counters got the notion that I was costing 3 times what I was being paid, and he shrugged and said they were just applying standard accounting principles per various laws and government regulations that changed each year. >Am I missing something? I do know that LISTSERV is probably the world's >most expensive list processing software :-), but aren't we off by a >couple orders of magnitude here? Well, one site runs a number of large lists totalling 4,181,234 subscriptions on a P5-166 with 192M, including the deliveries. These are very large lists, so monthly averages, while still in the 500k range, are not really a very useful measurement. There are many days with near-zero activity and then days well above a million deliveries. SUNET now uses an AlphaServer 1000A, which is essentially a PC server with an Alpha chip inside. This can deliver some 2.xM messages daily, of which we currently do about 500-600k (the ratio being the two being due to budgeting issues). Eric From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Sep 14 22:37:46 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA07984 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id WAA07834 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA31440 ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:10:35 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199709150432.VAA01593@honor.greatcircle.com> References: Message of Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:16:06 -0700 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:05:13 -0700 To: Eric Thomas , LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM, "Michael C. Berch" From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:29 PM -0700 9/14/97, Eric Thomas wrote: >I don't want to start an endless religio-historical >discussion :-), Too late. (sigh) -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 15 00:07:42 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA22061 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id XAA22048 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcusa80.pcusa.org (pcusa80.pcusa.org [206.115.64.80]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id GAA00624 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcusa01.ecunet.org by pcusa80.pcusa.org id aa26924; 12 Sep 97 9:50 EDT Subject: Re: mailbomb issues... To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:50:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Merrill Cook" In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Sep 11, 97 08:45:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9709120950.aa28293@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From Chuq Von Rospach: > > Well, even without the central authorization, it'll break down a lot > slower than the current system, if only because there are better checks > and balances and a higher level of sophistication necessary > successfully pull off a forgery. Until we get end-user mail programs in place that make it easy, the problem is not that hackers need to be sophisticated, but that the end-users have to have a clue. =You= may have a network of friends watching all the public key repositories for a fake key with your name on it, but how many of the newbies on my or any other system are going to have that in place for a while? If they don't have a public key in the first place, let alone a network of people watching out for them, it'd be that much easier to spoof. Odd as my name is, there's a politician out in Utah or someplace like that who uses it too -- it's going to take a pretty good bump up in sophistication to keep mailing list software from confusing us for one another in public key repositories, let alone do rudimentary validation in the first place. It'll be relatively easy, I suspect, to get a list manager to trace a particular signed request to a particular signed public key in a particular repository or site, and the key might even have been signed by some relatively well known and trusted folks -- will all that let it know that it is him and not me that is subscribing? Or will it need to care? > likely, if I get a questionable request, I'll go looking for the public > key on the site of the e-mail address. If the key isn't in a repository > that's known/trusted, like the one pgpkeys.mit.edu runs, I'll go back The part I don't like is "I'll go looking". How about "my list manager software will go looking"? I don't have time to go validate even a small number of the hundreds of folks who might want to subscribe to my list(s). (I know it would be good for the list owner to do that, but let's posit that we want all validation for a signed subscribe request to be validated automatically by the list software, not the list owner.) Does the MIT repository do validation? Last time I looked, it was just a place where keys could be stored and accessed, and people can sign each other's keys. > to the source. So just creating a spoofed key does you nothing, because > it'll be tagged with the e-mail address, and I"ll go to that > site/address to get the public key. So you need physical access to the Tagged with "an" email address. Not necessarily the right one. And I'm wondering if I want to put something in another public place that has my email address on it for all to see -- I'm already getting more spam than I really want. Maybe we can get the public key repositories to forward mail to the registered email address, rather than displaying it for all the world to see. But that's another subject. > If you try to toss in a key for my address on a major key repository, > it isn't likely to go long without being caught, and it requires > someone in *my* chain of trusted validators to break down and validate > it incorrectly. Doesn't matter how many of your guys validate it, > unless one of them is also my guy, so again, I'm in control of my own > quality-of-key-control, not you. And for an unknown key without a Not quite. If I'm trying to decide whether a public key with your name on it might have been posted by a third party, =that= key has to be signed by someone =I= trust -- I don't care how many people you trust sign your key. If I don't know any of them, I'm not going to trust it. True, you then have an incentive to have your key signed by someone that lots of other people trust, in hopes that one of them is someone I trust; and in that sense it is your responsibility; but it is my responsibility to decide whether or not to trust the signatures on your public key, and thus you. In a mail list context, particularly, it's still not clear to me how to keep my list manager from declining most subscribe requests, if the circles of trusted signers don't overlap. I still think there's a problem closing that gap when we get to 40 or 100 million or a billion people all over the globe, unless we get a bit sophisticated in how we do it. (Or maybe someone's already done the sophisticated analysis to show that a critical mass will develop and it will become easier, and I just haven't run across it.) I suspect in practice the signing function you talk about for major systems will be more a matter of saying "this is the public key for the person who owns this account on this system, and all we know about her is that she pays her bills on time" rather than "I've done a background check on the person who owns this account on this system, and she really is who she says she is". Can we expect more from fred.net? When we are talking about making sure it really is the owner of a mail account that wants to subscribe to a public list, that's probably going to be good enough. The next step, knowing for sure that the person is who she says she is, sounds like it will require another bump up in sophistication, and that's the level I'm trying to figure out. > >Is there any list software > >(or protocol) for handling signed requests? Any mail > > Nope. But as I noted above, those standards are just now being worked > on. We're talking about Majordomo 3.0 (or 3.5) here, not 1.94.8. But Why so long? Will list considerations be in the mix as the standards are developed, or do we need to push for that? Is this a good group to be involved in that development? Are any of the members of this group (list) involved in developing the standards? Thanks for the dialog. Hope my noodling isn't too boring or naive for the rest of the list... -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org http://www.pcusa.org/ -+- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 15 00:57:00 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA07275 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id AAA06982 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.loud-n-clear.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id XAA05054; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sleepy.demon.co.uk (sleepy.demon.co.uk [158.152.84.186]) by mailgate.loud-n-clear.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ba172043 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 06:54:48 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 06:41:01 +0000 To: mcb@postmodern.com Cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM From: Peter Scales Subject: Horsepower [was Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please] In-Reply-To: <341C8C52.BE24AC36@postmodern.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.04 X-Info: Mailserver at loud-n-clear.com Ltd. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <341C8C52.BE24AC36@postmodern.com>, "Michael C. Berch" writes > >Um... a list with 1791 members, even if quite active, would hardly cause even >a low-end Pentium to breathe hard. > Actually, we ran 60 lists with combined membership in excess of 1791 on a 486DX25 for 18 months, hardly ideal, but it got the job done. -- Pete Peter Scales The Old Well House, Church Street, Prees, Shropshire SY13 2DQ +44 701 0708 422 From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 15 01:02:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA06244 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.loud-n-clear.com (mailgate.loud-n-clear.com [194.159.6.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id AAA06235 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sleepy.demon.co.uk (sleepy.demon.co.uk [158.152.84.186]) by mailgate.loud-n-clear.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ka172052 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:27:39 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:27:20 +0000 To: mcb@postmodern.com Cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM From: Peter Scales Subject: Re: Horsepower [was Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please] In-Reply-To: <341CDED7.50572319@postmodern.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.04 X-Info: Mailserver at loud-n-clear.com Ltd. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <341CDED7.50572319@postmodern.com>, "Michael C. Berch" writes >The point I was trying to make (if I dare even mention FISH-ECOLOGY again) :-) > was >that even if you allow for the price of hardware and support in 1989, I can't >imagine the internal marginal cost of a single list of 1791 subscribers as >being more than a pittance; today, of course, it would be in the noise level. That's interesting. Could you define marginal cost, please? The biggest cost to us for any list is the admin time to weed out bad addresses and deal with unsubscribe requests sent to us or the list, rather than the list manager s/w. Cost of bandwidth is next and I imagine that the fractional cost of the hardware isn't worth calculating (although I've just done so - the cost of the hardware *in total* is around 20 USD a week assuming a three year life, and the electricity consumed (200W/hour) costs around 3 USD a week - divide by n lists... say about a dollar a list a month?). -- Pete Peter Scales The Old Well House, Church Street, Prees, Shropshire SY13 2DQ +44 701 0708 422 From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 15 02:41:00 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id CAA02266 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (kristeva.postmodern.com [198.102.244.54]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id AAA01732 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 198.102.244.52 (foucault.postmodern.com [198.102.244.52]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-960422) with ESMTP id AAA11408; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <341CDED7.50572319@postmodern.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:08:22 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01a (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM CC: Peter Scales Subject: Re: Horsepower [was Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please] X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Peter Scales wrote: > > In message <341C8C52.BE24AC36@postmodern.com>, "Michael C. Berch" > writes > > > >Um... a list with 1791 members, even if quite active, would hardly > cause even > >a low-end Pentium to breathe hard. > > > > Actually, we ran 60 lists with combined membership in excess of 1791 > on a 486DX25 for 18 months, hardly ideal, but it got the job done. Oh, absolutely. I was just picking a current example. Until recently *all* the lists at greatcircle.com, including List-Managers and the Firewalls lists (about 17,000 direct subscribers, last I looked) were hosted on a single 486 box running BSDI. It's now a low-end Pentium. The point I was trying to make (if I dare even mention FISH-ECOLOGY again) was that even if you allow for the price of hardware and support in 1989, I can't imagine the internal marginal cost of a single list of 1791 subscribers as being more than a pittance; today, of course, it would be in the noise level. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 15 12:14:00 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id JAA29161 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id JAA29123 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from research.research.bell-labs.com ([135.104.1.3]) by dirty; Mon Sep 15 12:40:29 EDT 1997 Received: from chair.dnrc.bell-labs.com ([135.180.161.201]) by research; Mon Sep 15 12:40:30 EDT 1997 Received: (from rn@localhost) by chair.dnrc.bell-labs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA05443 for List-Managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:40:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "ravi narayan" Message-Id: <970915124031.ZM5441@chair> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:40:31 -0400 In-Reply-To: Eric Thomas "Re: FISH-ECOLOGY Controversy" (Sep 15, 4:18am) References: <199709150253.TAA13368@honor.greatcircle.com> Reply-To: rn@dnrc.bell-labs.com X-Tra: Everything Including Chaos Is Predestined X-Url: http://vger.rutgers.edu/~ravi X-Uri: http://vger.rutgers.edu/~ravi X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: FISH-ECOLOGY Controversy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sep 15, 4:18am, Eric Thomas wrote: > > I always set personal considerations aside when I do my job... > maybe you should not. unless your personal considerations do not give you much conviction. someone mentioned that this discussion (despite the name calling and the urging of one person named chuq to others to "shut up") is important and interesting, and i agree. with the indulgence of the folks who contribute the resources to run this list (could be this person named chuq for all i know!), i urge that we not "shut up" but indeed continue this debate! -- ravi -- man is, after all, merely an ape with an attitude. - from "arrow of the blue skinned god", jonah blank From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 15 12:24:53 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id JAA04435 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id JAA04303 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from public.lists.apple.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id JAA11278; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17062 ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:03:03 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9709120950.aa28293@pcusa01.ecunet.org> References: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Sep 11, 97 08:45:27 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:57:36 -0700 To: "Merrill Cook" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: mailbomb issues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:50 AM -0700 9/12/97, Merrill Cook wrote: >Until we get end-user mail programs in place that make it easy, >the problem is not that hackers need to be sophisticated, but that >the end-users have to have a clue. And if all we do is complain that we can't do it today, instead of starting to think about how it ought to be done and work towards getting it implemented, it'll never happen, either. Which was my whole point all along. Sigh. I am not, was not, never have been talking about a "today" solution. You keep saying how it's not possible today, and waht the potential problems are. I keep trying to point out if we don't start trying to understand and SOLVE those problems, they'll never be solved. you go ahead and wait for a perfect solution if you want. If people don't go trying to create them, they'll never exist. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 15 12:46:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA03684 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id MAA03441 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <199709151059.claire.97092889@siberia.demon.co.uk> From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:59:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please Reply-to: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) In-reply-to: <199709150117.SAA04507@honor.greatcircle.com> References: Message of Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:34:15 GMT from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 15 Sep 97 at 2:51, Eric Thomas puddy cat purred: > Aldo, I have no desire to have a *discussion* about this [snip] Then, **please**, can you both just drop it? You've both had your say. -- Claire McNab -- Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 15 12:54:25 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA06036 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fobos.ulpgc.es (fobos.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id MAA06002 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cicei.ulpgc.es (cicei.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.20]) by fobos.ulpgc.es (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA26514 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:42:53 +0100 Received: from CICEI/SpoolDir by cicei.ulpgc.es (Mercury 1.31); 15 Sep 97 20:45:03 GMT Received: from SpoolDir by CICEI (Mercury 1.31); 15 Sep 97 20:45:00 GMT From: "Aldo-Pier Solari" Organization: Univ. de Las Palmas de G.C. To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:44:56 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: kicked away from my own house X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: <48022C7136@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Due to Eric Thomas' (my former sysop at segate.sunet.se) letter to my new academic sponsor, I've been removed as owner from my own medium, today. I created FISH-ECOLOGY in October 1994 at the Canadian DFO, moved to SUNET and dismissed E. Thomas (and SUNET) on ethical grounds. Now, E. Thomas, using his position at the Swedish University Network wrote a dont-know-what letter to the MIT after which I was kicked from my own house. After working my butt off to make FISH-ECOLOGY what it is now, I feel violated by this. It seems owner dont have rights, dont own anything and any sysop may override us at will. Learn from this. Aldo-Pier Solari It led: ]Pending resolution of their dispute with Aldo-Pier Solari, I have ]removed his name as owner of the new list here, leaving you as sole ]owner. I have also put the list on Hold, preventing further message ]distribution; attempts to contribute will generate a notice of the ]delay. ---- Aldo-PierSolari , Fish.Res.Gr./ULP Home-page: http://www.ulpgc.es/usuarios/solaris/index.html PGPKey ID: 0xFDD1FD36 -- IWillNotFailThoseWithWhomIServe ---- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 15 14:19:14 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id NAA13334 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id NAA13288 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709152023.NAA13288@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <3.78CF2BD2@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:30:45 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 8940; Mon, 15 Sep 97 22:29:52 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 4061; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:29:52 +0200 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:16:44 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: kicked away from my own house To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM cc: ANGER@MITVMA.MIT.EDU In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:44:56 GMT from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:44:56 GMT Aldo-Pier Solari said: >Now, E. Thomas, using his position at the Swedish University Network >wrote a dont-know-what letter to the MIT after which I was kicked >from my own house. At no point did I request or even suggest that MIT should remove you as owner of FISH-ECOLOGY. I did suggest that FISH-ECOLOGY needed at least two owners (this was before I knew that this was already the case). Again, SUNET intends to migrate your list to MIT and, once the migration has taken place, you will be dealing exclusively with MIT and SUNET will no longer have any kind of involvement in the debate. This will make matters a lot simpler for everyone. Eric From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 15 14:32:16 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id NAA15437 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brickbat9.mindspring.com (brickbat9.mindspring.com [207.69.200.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id NAA15403 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [38.12.201.232] (ip232.san-francisco8.ca.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.201.232]) by brickbat9.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22974; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:41:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: themet@pop.mindspring.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <48022C7136@cicei.ulpgc.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:43:08 -0700 To: "Aldo-Pier Solari" From: "Mark E. Taylor" Subject: Re: kicked away from my own house Cc: : Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is almost like a Kafka story. This whole conflagration has really gotten way out of hand. Mr. Solari wants to move the list to a new host which he has done. For reasons I am still trying to understand the current host seems to not want to let it go or at least seems to have some delays in closing it down. Fine. Now essentially the ownership of the list appears to be in dispute. Then the new host has been served with a request of some kind indicating dispute of ownership and Aldo has been taken off as list owner and the no new mail messages being distributed. My friends I suggest on this one you sit down with a neutral third party who can render a decision on this matter (short of legal action) but make a decision binding upon the two of you. At 8:44 PM +0000 9/15/97, Aldo-Pier Solari wrote > > >]Pending resolution of their dispute with Aldo-Pier Solari, I have >]removed his name as owner of the new list here, leaving you as sole >]owner. I have also put the list on Hold, preventing further message >]distribution; attempts to contribute will generate a notice of the >]delay. I am also wondering by what legal authority this person is acting upon. Did Thomas make some sort of threat in his communication? Rival lists appear all the time on the internet. This is taking it to the point of almost being malicious. Clearly this issue has become inflamed and I suspect that only third party neutral mediation may help at this point. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 15 15:38:25 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA00928 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id OAA00869 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709152152.OAA00869@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <7.FD4B33F4@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 0:00:21 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 0071; Mon, 15 Sep 97 23:59:37 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 6426; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:59:30 +0200 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:46:31 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: kicked away from my own house To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, "Mark E. Taylor" In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:43:08 -0700 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:43:08 -0700 "Mark E. Taylor" said: >For reasons I am still trying to understand the current host seems to >not want to let it go or at least seems to have some delays in closing >it down. I wonder how many times I will have to say that SUNET wants to migrate the list to MIT and abandon any legal rights SUNET might have in the list. Now, the list had not been migrated properly. Some subscribers were dropped, the archives were lost, DIGEST options were reset, related documents were not transferred, etc. SUNET does not want to delete its copy of the data until it has been properly migrated to the new host. Then SUNET's job will be over and the whole ball of wax will be in MIT's court. >Did Thomas make some sort of threat in his communication? None whatsoever. He wants to get rid of the list as soon as possible. >Rival lists appear all the time on the internet. These are not rival lists. SUNET has nothing to do with fish and wants to transfer the list to MIT. Eric From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 15 15:51:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA29415 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyberq.quality.org (cyberq.quality.org [199.181.80.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id OAA29126 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (help@localhost) by cyberq.quality.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA03186; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:52:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)" To: Eric Thomas cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM, ANGER@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: kicked away from my own house In-Reply-To: <199709152023.NAA13288@honor.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can you boys take your argument somewhere else, please! I'm not at all interested in your histrionics and this isn't the place for you to handle your internal quarrels. Find an arbitration list somewhere and fight it out, but quit wasting the bandwidth here! Regards. ============================================================================= Bill Casti, CQA Email: help@quality.org - List Moderator, "TQM in Manufacturing and Service Industries" List Address: QUALITY@pucc.princeton.edu ============================================================================= On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Eric Thomas wrote: > On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:44:56 GMT Aldo-Pier Solari > said: > > >Now, E. Thomas, using his position at the Swedish University Network > >wrote a dont-know-what letter to the MIT after which I was kicked > >from my own house. > > At no point did I request or even suggest that MIT should remove you as > owner of FISH-ECOLOGY. I did suggest that FISH-ECOLOGY needed at least > two owners (this was before I knew that this was already the case). > Again, SUNET intends to migrate your list to MIT and, once the migration > has taken place, you will be dealing exclusively with MIT and SUNET will > no longer have any kind of involvement in the debate. This will make > matters a lot simpler for everyone. > > Eric > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Sep 16 06:13:01 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id FAA24568 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 05:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id FAA24336 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 05:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id FAA25094; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 05:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaden.math.ethz.ch (bollow@vaden [129.132.146.136]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.6.12/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id OAA21440 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:49:38 +0200 Received: (bollow@localhost) by vaden.math.ethz.ch (8.6.9/D-MATH-client) id OAA23596; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:49:38 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:49:38 +0200 Message-Id: <199709161249.OAA23596@vaden.math.ethz.ch> From: Norbert Bollow To: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <48022C7136@cicei.ulpgc.es> (SOLARIS@cicei.ulpgc.es) Subject: Re: kicked away from my own house Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Aldo-PierSolari wrote: > It seems owner dont have rights, dont own anything and any sysop may > override us at will. Learn from this. I believe you are almost right about this: Since you don't seem to have any kind of contract with the institution which provided the computing resources for the list (and you did not pay for using those resources), the term "list-owner" is only a technical term with no legal implications whatsoever. However you probably own the copyright for any texts you may have written (this could include e.g. a "welcome message" or a "Frequently Asked Questions" document). -- Norbert. P.S. It's not like you received nothing in return for the time you invested in the mailing list: You had this great government-funded opportunity for becoming widely-known in your field of research. P.P.S. The person whom you've been accusing of irresponsible behaviour is widely known and highly respected for significant contributions in the field of mailing list software, and at least as long as his arguments make more sense than yours, your accusations are not going to help you if it is your goal to be granted "list-owner" privileges at another mailing list server. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland E-mail: NB@POBOX.COM Would you like coaching in the art of thinking and decision-making? From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Sep 16 14:53:43 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA03002 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id OAA02991 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mv.mv.com (mv.mv.com [192.80.84.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id VAA28286 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mem@localhost) by mv.mv.com (8.8.5/mem-940616) id AAA09982; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:20:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "Mark E. Mallett" Message-Id: <199709150420.AAA09982@mv.mv.com> Subject: Re: hi there To: yossman@yoss.canweb.net (yossman) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "yossman" at Sep 14, 97 10:50:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > i'd appreciate any help, including pointers to better places to ask or > read more about it. One pointer is: don't title your messages "hi there" -- it looks like yet another sex spam and is likely to get deleted unread. And in general, try to always use a descriptive subject. Busy people filter in various ways, subject being one of them. -mm- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Sep 16 15:07:45 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA02709 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id OAA02688 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dns01.ops.usa.net (dns01.ops.usa.net [204.68.24.137]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id LAA09569 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 19952 invoked by alias); 14 Sep 1997 18:51:11 -0000 Message-ID: <19970914185111.19950.qmail@dns01.ops.usa.net> Received: (qmail 19927 invoked from network); 14 Sep 1997 18:51:09 -0000 Received: from 137.houston-02.tx.dial-access.att.net (HELO compaq) (12.65.129.137) by dns01.ops.usa.net with SMTP; 14 Sep 1997 18:51:09 -0000 From: "Alan Czarnek" To: "Aldo-Pier Solari" Cc: Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:51:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1008.3 X-MimeOle: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.1008.3 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >I started FISH-ECOLOGY at the Canadian Dept. of Fisheries and >Oceans (August 1994) and moved it to SUNET (Sept. 1994) due to >technical problems. OK, I have a question, who has been paying for the list? Situations like this are why I recommend that the listowner either 1) run the list from their own computer, 2) contract with a private listserve operator like LSoft or 3) have a written agreement with the provider about list ownership (if the list is provided as a free service to you.) In this case, it *appears* (my guess) that the institution was providing this service to you for free. Apparently they feel that since they bore the costs of operation, that they are the true owners of the list. > - A list exists due to the list owner's work; > - The owner has the right to migrate or do whatever s/he wishes > with the list. > Well the list exists due to the listowner's work AND due to the people who provided the hardware and technical expertise to run the server. The best way to keep these disaters from happening is to have a clear agreement about list migration and ownership BEFORE you start using another server. Commercial operators will have no interest in running a list after the listowner stops paying for it...... so it is the 'free' providers that you have to worry about. At any rate, if you have a good reputation as a listowner, you should be easily able to entice your subscriber base to move over to your new site. Just get out your last copy of the subscriber list and send them all emails inviting them to move over to the new address...... Hope this helps, Alan Cz >However, as SUNET is now dismissed (due to repetitive insults, >threats and academic hostility among other more complex aspects >which I'll not go into detail here), they take the same position as >the former sysop at the aforementioned canadian institution. > >My requests to SUNET (which have been dismissed) were as follows: > > - Discontinue FISH-ECOLOGY, FISH-JUNIOR, FFRESEARCH-CONTENTS and > FFREPORTS-NEWS: All of these were my works, my initiatives and > the support from the Senior scientist community and FAO came > about due to *my* initiative and work; > > - Delete all subscriptions to the services above; > > - SUNET's free to start new similar services if they get the > needed personnel & know-how, contacts, etc. but DO NOT USE > the serivice names I created because they now have other > service providers. > >SUNET has refused to do so. > >I would like to know your opinions. If there is any comission where >I may inform about this , please, let me know. I see this as a kind >of *piracy* but such unethical behaviour is praxis at SUNET, an >institution with a clear academic-hostile policy. > >You may reply to me at: SOLARIS@CICEI.ULPGC.ES > >Thank you, > > Aldo-Pier Solari/list owner FISH-ECOLOGY at MITVMA.MIT.EDU > >******************************************************************* >FISH-ECOLOGY: New addresses from Sept. 1997 and on. Please, print. >******************************************************************* >Server (to un/subscribe): LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU >The conference: FISH-ECOLOGY@MITVMA.MIT.EDU >Requests: FISH-ECOLOGY-REQUEST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU >******************************************************************* > > >---- >Aldo-PierSolari , Fish.Res.Gr./ULP >Home-page: http://www.ulpgc.es/usuarios/solaris/index.html >PGPKey ID: 0xFDD1FD36 -- IWillNotFailThoseWithWhomIServe >---- > > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Sep 16 15:16:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA02959 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id OAA02942 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id TAA08170 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20934 invoked by uid 500); 15 Sep 1997 02:09:34 -0000 To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please References: <34D5182C16@cicei.ulpgc.es> From: Russ Allbery In-Reply-To: "Aldo-Pier Solari"'s message of Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:34:15 GMT Date: 14 Sep 1997 19:09:34 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 124 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Whee. I rather hate to jump into the middle of this, but there are a few things being said here that are a little troubling. Aldo-Pier Solari writes: > And courtroom ?: You could end up in jail if you go to a court room :-) > Let's no go into details, your SUNET-LSoft manouvers are not a matter > for this list. You may want to bear in mind that most people who have spent any time on Usenet or the Internet at large have developed a knee-jerk "ignore" reaction to the raising of legal threats and those who do so. I have seen literally thousands of legal threats made in newsgroups and on mailing lists and have yet to see *one* of them actually go to court, let alone win. You will accomplish precisely nothing in a public discussion by raising the issue apart from causing large numbers of people to instinctively ignore anything further you have to say, regardless of whether it is right. If you believe that you have legal grounds for a suit, then make one. Once you have an actual *case number*, people may believe that you're really serious and raising that part of the issue will not cause this reaction. Until that time, it will be dismissed as empty posturing regardless of whether it is or not. > (a) SUNET cannot have any rigths on neither the name > 'FISH-ECOLOGY' nor on the distribution list because > (a') SUNET has not any official list hosting, > it has refused, several times, to acknowledge > such a service; I doubt you're aware of othe problems this particular train of argument can cause in the larger picture, so let me explain. Mailing list hosting (and Usenet news and a wide variety of similar such services) are "officially unofficial" at a very large number of organizations on the Internet, including quite a few academic ones. This is for the simple reason of political plausible deniability; the people administering the computers don't want to have their jobs put on the line if someone does something idiotic with the lists they are hosting. A great many people who both administer such services and who make use of such services are quite happy with this arrangement. It avoids any potential political problems, and as long as people remain relatively professional and low-key about what they're doing, never becomes an issue. It is, however, a somewhat fragile situation since as soon as someone comes along who cannot take no for an answer and thinks they have some sort of "rights" to exercise, they can cause an immense amount of trouble, and if they start directly attacking the plausible deniability of the service, one possible result is that the entire service will simply be closed down by the upper management. Understanding this has been part of Internet etiquette for years, and is one of the major reasons behind the maxim that on-line disputes should not be taken off-line unless there is absolutely no other recourse. Almost all the major services offered on the Internet have been built and supported by volunteers in an unofficial capacity while their bosses and management have been graciously looking the other way or officially ignoring them. And while that cultural landscape has changed a lot in the past few years, that old style of interaction hasn't vanished entirely. Correspondingly, there are very few courses of action more likely to invoke the ire of the sort of "senior list owners" you're appealing to here than to attack that particular foundation. When you demand official acknowledgement of unofficial functions or start making political issues out of volunteer services, you're not only being rude under the above standard of etiquette, you're also directly attacking a foundation that a lot of the services we care about and maintain are built on. Now I understand that this is not entirely the case here, and I don't personally find the statements of the SUNET administrator on this list to be a lot more appetizing. (The Swedish government? Hundreds of thousands of dollars? Transfer of legal right to the mailing list? Please -- it's a *mailing list*, not a matter of national security or something.) But it is fairly obviously a personal argument between the two of you, and you're dragging in a lot of issues and arguments that are more charged than you appear to realize and which aren't going to do you a lot of good. > You've got to stop harassing list owners on arbitrary grounds as well as > stoping this clear violation of the intrinsic copyright you've defended > elsewhere (when it came close to your interests). Please stop incorrectly using the word "copyright." It isn't going to help your argument. You cannot copyright a forum or a name. I highly doubt that you can copyright a list of subscribers. You can only copyright a creative work. > Firstly, I am not just 'a paricular scientist': I have created and > maintained and made FISH-ECOLOGY what is is and, secondly, I AM FREE to > choose the ISP I may see fit on whatever grounds I may have. There is a severe clash of cultures here between your attitude about your mailing list and my attitude towards the various lists (all much smaller than yours, I freely admit) which I run. As far as I'm concerned, all mailing lists which I run are being run as a public service. They are not "mine." They belong to the Internet community at large; I am, at best, the trustee into whose charge they have been put. My responsibility as the maintainer of the lists is to run them in the best manner I can and make them useful resources to the rest of the Internet. This includes handing them off to someone else if someone else can run them better than I, and it includes not handing them off if someone else can't. But in no way am I the *owner*; how could I possibly claim ownership over a forum which has been built of the contributions of hundreds or thousands of other people? Discussion fora are built and maintained by the participants, not the facilitators. As far as I'm concerned, we, as list managers, are in this business to facilitate the construction of fora by the participants and to keep things working smoothly behind the scenes, not to, in general, inject our personal ego and ownership into the fora. In my experience, the best, most useful, and most enjoyable mailing lists I have ever been on have been those where the manager took a hands-off approach and let the group work out their own culture and norms, only intervening in the event of a real problem. This perspective is apparently somewhat foreign to you, and obviously it's your right to have a different view of the situation than I. But frankly, I find the trend away from a culture and tradition of building a joint community rather than staking claims and protecting them viciously against all comers to be rather sad. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Sep 16 15:37:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA03489 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id OAA03456 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcusa80.pcusa.org (pcusa80.pcusa.org [206.115.64.80]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id RAA28715 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcusa01.ecunet.org by pcusa80.pcusa.org id aa05978; 15 Sep 97 19:49 EDT Subject: Re: mailbomb issues... To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:49:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "Merrill Cook" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Sep 15, 97 09:57:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9709151949.aa05738@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From Chuq Von Rospach: > > I am not, was not, never have been talking about a "today" solution. > You keep saying how it's not possible today, and waht the potential > problems are. I keep trying to point out if we don't start trying to > understand and SOLVE those problems, they'll never be solved. you go > ahead and wait for a perfect solution if you want. If people don't go > trying to create them, they'll never exist. I'm sorry for the confusion -- I perceived you as making excuses for makeshift current solutions, where I was looking for what this paragraph describes: a description of the real problem, and of potential real-world solutions. Which said, I still don't think we are any closer to either for having had the exchange. If you know who is trying to create the solutions, let me know. -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org http://www.pcusa.org/ -+- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Sep 16 20:08:19 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA29588 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fobos.ulpgc.es (fobos.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id TAA26256 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cicei.ulpgc.es (cicei.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.20]) by fobos.ulpgc.es (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA08233 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 03:41:33 +0100 Received: from CICEI/SpoolDir by cicei.ulpgc.es (Mercury 1.31); 17 Sep 97 03:43:43 GMT Received: from SpoolDir by CICEI (Mercury 1.31); 17 Sep 97 03:43:23 GMT From: "Aldo-Pier Solari" Organization: Univ. de Las Palmas de G.C. To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 03:43:16 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: FISH-ECOLOGY update X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: <66FAC6102C@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I was requested by several list owners to keep them informed on the developments of the 'FISH-ECOLOGY (FE) affair'. Apologies to those who're not interested in the issue to whom I request to just skip the message. - As I migrated FE to it's new sponsor, my former system operator made himself owner of the dupped (old) list (which he refused 11 times to close down); - The sysop wrote an email to the sysops at the new center claiming rights over FE and expressing that I stold my own list; - I was removed as an owner from my own 3-yr. old list at the new center and the list (with 1800 members) was halted (held); - Moreover: I was acussed by my former sysop of 'destroying lists', 'scientific data', etc. while he lost a 2 year logs+ software repository+ electronic library for not having a back up; - The sysop wrote to the new center that I 'had been appointed to run the list at SUNET' while, in fact, I created the list at the Canadian DFO and migrated it to SUNET; Also, that 'SUNET' has nothing against that the new center 'appoints me to run the list'; Well, this story is just kafkian. All in all, this may happen to you (at SUNET, at least): - You can create a forum and work your butt off to make it something good; - Once you have some problem with the systems operator and tell him you will migrate the forum s/he may block you from the server, put himself as an owner, claim rights over your work, have you treated as a thief at the new center sponsoring the forum, etc. A similar situation happened when I migrated FE from the Canadian marine institution for over 3 years ago. The issue seems recurrent: Sysops use their position to harm the list owner who've dismissed them (on technical or ethical grounds). **We list owners do not seem to have any rights**. Any system operator is in a position to steal all of our work, acusse us of anything between heaven and hell and -as he is sitting in an official position- you, as list owner, will not be trusted by anyone. You will be treated as a thief, taken away kicked and from your own house. That's it. Eric Thomas, from LSoft International and my former sysop at SUNET did all this. I want you all to know that. Now, the spiral goes even further because academics at the new center as well as American senior scientists (who've been members of FE since the begining) may get involved to give me a hand in this ***violation & robbery***. This happens at the Swedish University Network (SUNET) with knowledge of my sysop's boss (shall I say his name ?). As I told you before, list owners are considered by SUNET 'nothing at nowhere with a non existent list': A clear hostile policy against us academics who, unselfishly, work endlessly for years to give the global community high quality, on-topic channels to communicate. My conslusion on this issue, so far, is as follows: Do not trust any systems operators. Try to run your service at some center where sysops are CONTROLED by academic boards in case such a kafkian case should arise. We NEED an international List Owners Board to avoid this happening to others. This kind of robbery & violation is not fair and we should not accept it. Aldo-Pier Solari ---- Aldo-PierSolari , Fish.Res.Gr./ULP Home-page: http://www.ulpgc.es/usuarios/solaris/index.html PGPKey ID: 0xFDD1FD36 -- IWillNotFailThoseWithWhomIServe ---- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Sep 16 22:09:20 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA14431 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id VAA14381 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id VAA05206; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA29074; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:16:10 -0500 (CDT) To: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: FISH-ECOLOGY update References: <66FAC6102C@cicei.ulpgc.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 16 Sep 1997 23:16:09 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Aldo-Pier Solari"'s message of Wed, 17 Sep 1997 03:43:16 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.46/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "AS" == Aldo-Pier Solari writes: AS> My conslusion on this issue, so far, is as follows: Do not trust any AS> systems operators. Try to run your service at some center where sysops AS> are CONTROLED by academic boards in case such a kafkian case should AS> arise. I guess I won't trust myself then. Guess I won't be offering to host any lists for anyone, either, because they shouldn't trust me. No way in hell I'm going to bend over for some academic board just to blow my free time running lists for folks because I'm nice. No way. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-3486 - 622PGH System Manager: University of Houston Department of Mathematics 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Sep 16 22:13:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA16144 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fobos.ulpgc.es (fobos.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id VAA16096 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cicei.ulpgc.es (cicei.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.20]) by fobos.ulpgc.es (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA08597 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:22:10 +0100 Received: from CICEI/SpoolDir by cicei.ulpgc.es (Mercury 1.31); 17 Sep 97 05:24:19 GMT Received: from SpoolDir by CICEI (Mercury 1.31); 17 Sep 97 05:23:50 GMT From: "Aldo-Pier Solari" Organization: Univ. de Las Palmas de G.C. To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:23:44 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FISH-ECOLOGY update X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: <68A75D74A0@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, let's see: You're against a List Owner Board, think Hardware runners own the rights over your work AND that 'this forum' was not sympathetic to my 'problem'. Furthermore, you suggest that we split up to talk about this elsewhere. Are you the owner of this list ?. It sounds pretty biased to me: I received several requests from list owners to *keep them* informed on this case. If you believe the case is not important to you, why didnt you just skip the message ?. I am pretty sure the case is important not because it is 'my' list. Or shall I shut up when such things happen ?. For over a year ago, I proposed, in other forum, the List Owners Board concept. The respons was bad. It looks we lack organization capacity: There's a coporativism among sysops which I hardly find among list owners. Perhaps, such a LO Boards is not needed. After all, the only one who's or will have problems in the whole cyberspace is me :-) Hope you never get bugged up, man :-) Cheers, APS ] From: Michael Handler ] Um, how about creating a separate mailing list for those people ... ---- Aldo-PierSolari , Fish.Res.Gr./ULP Home-page: http://www.ulpgc.es/usuarios/solaris/index.html PGPKey ID: 0xFDD1FD36 -- IWillNotFailThoseWithWhomIServe ---- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Sep 16 22:18:18 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id UAA10916 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from califia.sub-rosa.com (califia.sub-rosa.com [207.96.1.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id UAA10629 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9641 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Sep 1997 04:05:31 -0000 Message-ID: <19970917000531.40621@sub-rosa.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:05:31 -0400 From: Michael Handler To: Aldo-Pier Solari Cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Subject: Re: FISH-ECOLOGY update References: <66FAC6102C@cicei.ulpgc.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.82 In-Reply-To: <66FAC6102C@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In <66FAC6102C@cicei.ulpgc.es>, Aldo-Pier Solari wrote: > I was requested by several list owners to keep them informed on the > developments of the 'FISH-ECOLOGY (FE) affair'. Apologies to those > who're not interested in the issue to whom I request to just skip > the message. Um, how about creating a separate mailing list for those people who are interested in the whole shebang, rather than flooding list-managers with traffic that people have vocally expressed a disinterest in? > **We list owners do not seem to have any rights**. Stop right there. Who owns the hardware? If you don't own the hardware, you have no legal rights. (Not even a machine that's funded by taxpayers. The computers at the US National Security Agency, and the stealth bombers of the US Airforce are funded from my taxes. That'll hardly get me CPU time on the computers or a ride in a bomber.) > We NEED an international List Owners Board to avoid this happening > to others. This kind of robbery & violation is not fair and we > should not accept it. What would you intend such a "List Owners Board" to do? The list was run out of the courtesy of the hardware owner. Certainly, the hardware owner may do things that are clearly *unfair*, or *not nice*, but unless they are clearly illegal (you had a legal contract with them, and they clearly broke the terms of the contract), there is no recourse aside from social pressure. And as someone on the IETF list said recently, $0.85 USD and social pressure will get you a cup of coffee. Frankly, if you want to endear people to your particular situation, repeatedly posting the same repackaged rants to a forum that has not shown itself to be friendly to your cause is not the way to do it. -- Michael Handler "Whoever controls the Spice Girls, controls the universe!" From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Sep 16 23:07:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA05572 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id WAA05444 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kidzen@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA14757; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:57:17 -0700 Received: from erzo.org by erzo.org (8.7.5/LUCK-AND-DEATH-1.3) id FAA08414; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:57:21 GMT Message-Id: <199709170557.FAA08414@erzo.org> To: "Aldo-Pier Solari" cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM, appel@erzo.org Subject: Re: FISH-ECOLOGY update Reply-To: appel@erzo.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:23:44 GMT." <68A75D74A0@cicei.ulpgc.es> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:57:21 -0700 From: Shannon Appel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Or shall I shut up when such things happen ?. Please do. There hasn't been anything constructive said in this discussion since the first day (and I'm not even sure anything constructive was said then). Now excuse me while I go chant a thousand hail marys for daring to be an evil, money-grubbing, list-stealing, boot-licking sysop as well as a multiple list-owner. Shannon From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Sep 16 23:42:01 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA12806 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id XAA12673 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webdreams.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id XAA06087; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA13870; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:28:47 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:28:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: brozen@torah.org To: Russ Allbery Cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Threatening to sue In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Backup: Disable X-Url: http://www.torah.org/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 14 Sep 1997, Russ Allbery wrote: > You may want to bear in mind that most people who have spent any time on > Usenet or the Internet at large have developed a knee-jerk "ignore" > reaction to the raising of legal threats and those who do so. I have seen > literally thousands of legal threats made in newsgroups and on mailing Actually, just for the record -- my place of work had a state trooper show up a few weeks ago because somebody who had NO idea how to unsubscribe from our lists, who never contacted us and who obviously never saved the instructions sent to him on how to unsubscribe when he first subscribed, decided to file charges. Anyhow, the trooper walked out realizing that it was ridiculous and offered to help US out if anybody threatens us in the future. So, that's the first (and only) action taken that I've ever seen. But hey, it taught us some things and worked to our advantage in that we now have a contact in the computer crimes division of the state police. ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@torah.org | http://www.torah.org/~brozen | ----------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Sep 16 23:47:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA08300 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from califia.sub-rosa.com (califia.sub-rosa.com [207.96.1.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id XAA08165 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10145 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Sep 1997 06:17:19 -0000 Message-ID: <19970917021719.43915@sub-rosa.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:17:19 -0400 From: Michael Handler To: Aldo-Pier Solari Cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Subject: Re: FISH-ECOLOGY update Reply-To: nobody@sub-rosa.com References: <68A75D74A0@cicei.ulpgc.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.82 In-Reply-To: <68A75D74A0@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One more public reply. Note Reply-To: and guess where it delivers to. In <68A75D74A0@cicei.ulpgc.es>, Aldo-Pier Solari wrote: > Well, let's see: You're against a List Owner Board, I more wonder what point it would serve, other than to make public proclamations that carry no effective weight whatsoever. > think Hardware runners own the rights over your work Well, look at your complaints in this matter. You allege that SUNET refused to stop running a mailing list with the name fish-ecology. SUNET owns the hardware, they can run whatever mailing list on the hardware they want, and with whatever name they want. I fail to see how running a mailing list "infringes on your rights", and what alleged work you have "rights" to, frankly. What are you claiming ownership of? The name fish-ecology? I could set up a mailing list on my hardware with the name fish-ecology in five minutes. Am I then infringing on your "rights"? I fail to see how anyone can own the "rights" to the gestalt of a mailing list or a newsgroup, as you appear to be claiming to be. Regardless of how much work you put into organizing the list and such, the content therein (which is really the only thing that can be owned) is still copyright the original author, unless you had some clause in the subscription form that granted you exclusive copyright to any submitted works. Even then, I doubt that would be defensible in any court. I'm with Russ Allbery on this one. This is all irrelevant of whether anything that SUNET is alleged to have done is 'nice' or 'how it should be done'. If they didn't play nicely with you, you should take it up with them privately. > AND that 'this forum' was not sympathetic to my 'problem'. That was my impression based on the traffic I read. Perhaps you're reading this list in an alternate dimension. > Furthermore, you suggest that we split up to talk about this elsewhere. > Are you the owner of this list ?. No. Did I claim to be? I do, however, claim the privilege as a subscriber to the list to point out when people are contributing non-productive traffic, and I think it has been demonstrated that neither of the parties involved here are interested in anything other than pointing fingers. > It sounds pretty biased to me: I received several requests from list > owners to *keep them* informed on this case. Then you could have mailed them all privately, or *ding* set up a mailing list for discussing this incident, no? > If you believe the case is not important to you, why didnt you just > skip the message ?. That's the same argument the unsolicited emailers use. I get enough junk traffic in my mailboxes every day, I don't see why I should stop trying to get people to only post relevant messages. > After all, the only one who's or will have problems in the whole > cyberspace is me :-) Perhaps you should dwell on that point, and the common factor therein. -- Michael Handler "Whoever controls the Spice Girls, controls the universe!" From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Sep 17 02:01:07 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id BAA03975 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (cvobku.cvo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.189.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id BAA00420 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (MX G5.0) id 7; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:11:37 -1300 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:11:36 -1300 From: "Henry W. Miller" To: brozen@torah.org CC: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV Message-ID: <009BA68F.1BDA0777.7@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Subject: RE: Threatening to sue Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"brozen@torah.org" 16-SEP-1997 23:51:57.41 > To: MX%"rra@stanford.edu" > CC: MX%"LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM" > Subj: Threatening to sue > On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:28:47 -0400 (EDT), Brock Rozen said: Brock Rozen writes: Brock, > On 14 Sep 1997, Russ Allbery wrote: > > > You may want to bear in mind that most people who have spent any time on > > Usenet or the Internet at large have developed a knee-jerk "ignore" > > reaction to the raising of legal threats and those who do so. I have seen > > literally thousands of legal threats made in newsgroups and on mailing > > > > Actually, just for the record -- my place of work had a state trooper show > up a few weeks ago because somebody who had NO idea how to unsubscribe > from our lists, who never contacted us and who obviously never saved the > instructions sent to him on how to unsubscribe when he first subscribed, > decided to file charges. > > Anyhow, the trooper walked out realizing that it was ridiculous and > offered to help US out if anybody threatens us in the future. > > So, that's the first (and only) action taken that I've ever seen. But hey, > it taught us some things and worked to our advantage in that we now have a > contact in the computer crimes division of the state police. ;-) > That's great that you've got somebody on your side at the Smokie office. I've had other problems with people attempting to unsubscribe that have led to some rather interesting trickle down manuevers. But I have to ask: didn't the individual who threatened to sue attempt to contact ANYONE in your office first for assiatance, or were they just being a pain in the backside? (We've ALL had those type of subscribers, haven't we? I had one who was so bad, we could not remember the simple instructions sent to him on how to unsubscribe, over and over and over again, but he could certainly fling obscene remarks at the rest of the list, until I set up NOPOST...) > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > | Brock Rozen | brozen@torah.org | http://www.torah.org/~brozen | > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > -HWM From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Sep 17 07:09:43 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id GAA08810 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 06:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id GAA08553 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 06:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from research.research.bell-labs.com ([135.104.1.3]) by dirty; Wed Sep 17 09:49:03 EDT 1997 Received: from chair.dnrc.bell-labs.com ([135.180.161.201]) by research; Wed Sep 17 09:48:28 EDT 1997 Received: (from rn@localhost) by chair.dnrc.bell-labs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA16939; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:48:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "ravi narayan" Message-Id: <970917094820.ZM16937@chair> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:48:19 -0400 In-Reply-To: "Aldo-Pier Solari" "Re: FISH-ECOLOGY update" (Sep 17, 5:23am) References: <68A75D74A0@cicei.ulpgc.es> Reply-To: rn@dnrc.bell-labs.com X-Tra: Everything Including Chaos Is Predestined X-Url: http://vger.rutgers.edu/~ravi X-Uri: http://vger.rutgers.edu/~ravi X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: "Aldo-Pier Solari" , LIST-MANAGERS@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: FISH-ECOLOGY update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sep 17, 5:23am, Aldo-Pier Solari wrote: > Or shall I shut up when such things happen ?. > dont, but... > For over a year ago, I > proposed, in other forum, the List Owners Board concept. The > respons was bad. It looks we lack organization capacity: There's a > coporativism among sysops which I hardly find among list owners. you may find it interesting that a lot of list owners (or list managers, to be precise) are "sysop"s. with the explosion of the internet, easy to run list software has become available and many folks run lists now without needing to know the finer details of internet mail. this has not always been true, and is still probably not true for very large lists (where there is a lot to be gained by regulating and properly configuring the flow of mail through the list processor). who else but sys admins are best skilled for this? you make broad sweeping statements against sysops, organizations like SUNET, and individuals like eric thomas, a lot of them vitriolic. i doubt thats going to win you much sympathy or attention, in this (or any other) forum. insofar as you claim that you created and nurtured the list and hence own implicit rights over it (putting aside the pedantic bickering over words like copyright and trademark), and insofar as SUNET has refused to shut down the list (effectively "hijack"ing it), you have a case, worthy of discussion. it is when you indulge in "conspiracy theory" that you start losing us! -- ravi -- man is, after all, merely an ape with an attitude. - from "arrow of the blue skinned god", jonah blank From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Sep 17 08:08:53 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA19996 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brickbat9.mindspring.com (brickbat9.mindspring.com [207.69.200.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id HAA19989 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [38.11.195.149] (ip94.san-francisco10.ca.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.203.94]) by brickbat9.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17210 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:48:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: themet@pop.mindspring.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970917094820.ZM16937@chair> References: "Aldo-Pier Solari" "Re: FISH-ECOLOGY update" (Sep 17, 5:23am) <68A75D74A0@cicei.ulpgc.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:40:30 -0700 To: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM From: "Mark E. Taylor" Subject: Re: FISH-ECOLOGY update Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:48 AM -0400 9/17/97, ravi narayan wrote: > >you make broad sweeping statements against sysops, organizations like >SUNET, and individuals like eric thomas, a lot of them vitriolic. i >doubt >thats going to win you much sympathy or attention, in this (or any >other) >forum. insofar as you claim that you created and nurtured the list >and >hence own implicit rights over it (putting aside the pedantic >bickering >over words like copyright and trademark), and insofar as SUNET has >refused >to shut down the list (effectively "hijack"ing it), you have a case, >worthy of discussion. it is when you indulge in "conspiracy theory" >that >you start losing us! This is correct. Whatever disagreement you have with SUNET and Eric Thomas (or they have with you) remember to not engage in this type of discourse. We here on this list work on day to day matters on our lists. True may of us (myself included) are sympathetic to your concerns on your mailing list. But we are not in a position to do much about it. Certainly we can listen and provide words of wisdom (or not!) but the list is not here to mediate disputes between a list owner and a sysop. Nor will you gain any sympathy by raising conspiracies. Stick to just the facts and present them in well ordered fashion. Otherwise people will simply delete your messages and go on. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Sep 17 10:10:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id JAA08843 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id JAA08763 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA49500 ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:04:00 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <009BA68F.1BDA0777.7@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:57:17 -0700 To: "Henry W. Miller" , brozen@torah.org From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: RE: Threatening to sue Cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:11 AM -0700 9/17/97, Henry W. Miller wrote: >But I >have to ask: didn't the individual who threatened to sue attempt to >contact ANYONE in your office first for assiatance, or were they just >being a pain in the backside? and to think I used to think I was being anal about logging all incoming email.... But I've found that whenever anyone utters words like lawyers or sue, all mail starts getting CCed to their postmaster as well. This seems to really help, because there is a person on the other side that can go and talk/phone/mail the person and moderate situations. I also have a tendency to take a "you should try asking nicely first, when the first message I get is..." tone, and that helps except for the most out-in-left-field types (those I just shut up and get them the h*ll off the list as fast as possible). It helps to remind them that opening a discussion by screaming isn't productive.... >but he could certainly fling obscene remarks at the rest of the >list, until I set up NOPOST...) One thing I've found effective here -- I TELL these guys they have to settle down, or I'll blackhole them. And once they're blackholed in my spammer files, they only way they'll EVER get off the list is by having their postmaster write me and ask me to to do it. Because obviously, once I'm blackholing their stuff, they wn't be able to unsubscribe, and none of their incoming mail will be read, just like any other spammer -- and they won't be off the list, either. So they either sthu up and ask nicely, or they're forced to go to their admin to ask me nicely, which means they have to explain why they're going to the admin for help. This works rather nicely, in fact, because it forces them into a pattern of positive behavior and doesn't reinforce that they can be abusive and get away with it.... And yes, there's the occasional real twit, but then, once i *do* blackhole them they're no longer a problem.... And, of course, I do this Cc:ing postmaster on the other person's site. Which if nothing else means there are witnesses not part of my site... chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Sep 17 13:10:30 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA06374 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id MAA06358 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id MAA13472; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Default (pool044-max1.ontario-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [207.217.151.44]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA04663 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709171951.MAA04663@germany.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: sbrooks@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM From: S Brooks Subject: FISH-ECOLOGY update<> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Aldo-Pier Solari said; >I was requested by several list owners to keep them informed on the >developments of the 'FISH-ECOLOGY (FE) affair'. Apologies to those >who're not interested in the issue to whom I request to just skip >the message. <> Sir; Rather than offer your apologies to the list, why not just cc a reply to all parties that have expressed a desire to follow this ongoing tale? Not sure how many members are on the MJ-Managers List, but I think that several hardly constitutes a majority. If someone did this to your own list, I'm sure that you would have something to say about it. Better yet, start up another list to discuss this thread. Just a thought. Sam Brooks sbrooks@earthlink.net From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Sep 17 15:49:08 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA07066 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id PAA07058 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtigwc05.worldnet.att.net ([204.127.131.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id IAA28772 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sheryl-coe ([207.146.227.191]) by mtigwc05.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAA28649; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:00:51 +0000 Message-ID: <341EB0A3.E0DAA100@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:15:31 -0400 From: "Sheryl E. Coe" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rn@dnrc.bell-labs.com CC: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: FISH-ECOLOGY My 2 Cents X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709150253.TAA13368@honor.greatcircle.com> <970915124031.ZM5441@chair> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ravi narayan wrote: > i urge that we not "shut up" but indeed continue this debate! > > -- ravi > > I feel for the individuals involved. It is obvious that if it were not for the personal animosity between these parties, that this could have been resolved with just a bit of professional negotiation. On the one hand, the listserv guy does not seem to want to cave to a list-owner with attitude, and does not care if the list suffers for it, for all his professed concern for the list. He has some rights since, as was mentioned before he is not a servant of the other party. On the other hand, the list-owner wants to give marching orders to someone over whom he has no authority, and is surprised when this goes over like a lead balloon. His concern is also not for the list, but for his status, and he has some rights there as well. Unfortunately for both parties, the insults that that have contributed to the public record will haunt them both forever. And finally, as your very own lurking newbie... I have learned more about list management in this flame war than I have in diligently studying the subject for over a year. (I am really new to all this, if you recall, I think I started my residence here by passing on my very first SPAMed email in its entirety to the entire group. ) Given my level of experience, I don't know if this has been as helpful to all of you. But perhaps, as interesting... Your Newbie, Sheryl From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Sep 17 16:16:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA06882 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id PAA06856 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amys-answers.com ([205.160.203.108]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id FAA28368 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 05:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709161256.FAA28368@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from basement (205.161.197.98) by amys-answers.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.708C4930@amys-answers.com>; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 8:06:30 -0500 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:07:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: List Owners and Site Managers[via LSMTP - see www.lsoft.com] Reply-to: amys@amys-answers.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think the debate between Eric and Aldo-Pier raises some very interesting questions. 1. Does a list-owner REALLY own a list if they are not also providing the resources to run that list? 2. If a person is running a list on "borrowed" resources and seems to be a detriment to the running of the list, does the site manager have the "authority" to remove that listowner and replace them with one that better suits "usage guidelines"? Obviously, none of us have the whole story here, but there are a few things that struck me. Aldo-Pier does not own ANY of the resources used for running the list (past or present). Apparently his list management style did not jive with the overall philosophy of SUNET (and a prior site) and Eric stepped in when he felt that it would adversely affect over 1700 other people. Aldo-Pier, as listowner, wants full control over how "his" list operates, and apparently he felt that SUNET (and a prior site) interfered with that so therefore he chose to move it over to another site. Personally, I think Eric went the extra mile when he was actually attempting to make sure the list and archives would migrate intact. My question is, "Why did he care?" Answering my own question, I can only determine that SUNET believes the list to be a valuable resource to the scientific community IN SPITE OF, NOT because of Aldo. And Aldo thinks it's BECAUSE of him. BUT SUNET, not Aldo, provided the resource. So who REALLY owns a list? If a list is truely providing a resource and a site manager keeps getting complaints over the running of a list, what's a person to do? We can argue endlessly over resource utilization of a list and how much money it takes to run one, but the truth of the matter is that it does cost money to run a list, but most of the time that cost is spread out among people who may or may not derive a direct benefit. If Aldo truely wants to own his list in the truest sense of the word, then let him pay for that. Buy the machine, dedicated internet access, list management software, mail server, phone line, domain name and depending upon what you choose, you could spend anywhere from $2000 a year on up. I know, I do it. Like I said, none of us have the full story, but it appears that there has been more going on than either of them have shared, for whatever reason and the fact that Eric even bothered amazes me. Let Aldo get and keep his own archives, subscriber list and such and let him worry about the move, hit the delete key and be done with it. And if someone wants to set up a similar list at SUNET, give them the chance. amy Amy Stinson Amy's Answers LLC Phone (317) 885-1741 Fax (317) 885-6589 From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Sep 17 17:46:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA24385 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flamingo.bahamas.net.bs ([206.138.16.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id RAA24358 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (dial36.bahamas.net.bs [206.138.17.36]) by flamingo.bahamas.net.bs (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA25384; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:29:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:29:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709180029.UAA25384@flamingo.bahamas.net.bs> X-Sender: iadams@mail.bahamas.net.bs X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: S Brooks , LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM From: Irwin Subject: Re: FISH-ECOLOGY update<> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is anyone keeping "score" of the points made by both sides in this on-going dabate ? It's getting hard to keep track of who in fact is making the most sense. Could someone make a summary of where we are at this stage ? (much like a judge addressing the jury on the key points of a case). While I see the need to deal with such matters, it's beginning to become repetitive and to some degree boring. It's about time to bring the case to the "jury" and have both parties move on....... Irwin. ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ Do YOU have Digital Satellite Television ? Do you WANT one ? We could get YOU that system. NO equipment to buy. EXCELLENT programs 24 hours EACH day, UNDER $10.00 per month. You can cancel at any time. < spectra@cashflow.com > < http://www.tpw.com/fl/iadams > ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Sep 17 18:31:20 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA01239 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (kristeva.postmodern.com [198.102.244.54]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id SAA01194 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mcb@localhost) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-960422) id SAA08189; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709180112.SAA08189@server.postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:12:49 +0000 In-Reply-To: <199709180029.UAA25384@flamingo.bahamas.net.bs> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: FISH-ECOLOGY update<> Cc: Irwin Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ > Do YOU have Digital Satellite Television ? Do you WANT one ? > We could get YOU that system. NO equipment to buy. > EXCELLENT programs 24 hours EACH day, UNDER $10.00 per month. > You can cancel at any time. > < spectra@cashflow.com > < http://www.tpw.com/fl/iadams > > ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ Oh, swell... now we get spam attached to list-managers postings. Please remove this from future postings; I have added it to the spam filter. Thanks, -- Michael C. Berch list-managers list manager mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Sep 17 19:01:52 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA06665 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id SAA06602 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:40:38 -0700 (PDT) From: JoeDysart@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA10765 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970917214749_-1164055735@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: ARTICLE RESEARCH: Leveraging Internet Mail Lists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all, I'm researching an article for Web Publisher magazine (www.web-publisher.com) on mail lists. Specifically, the article will be focusing on mail list programs that are easy to install and use for Web content publishers who may not be well versed in computer programming beyond HTML. Towards that end, I'm sending along some questions I thought you might like to answer. I'm interested in finding out what went into your evaluation of various mail list programs before you chose the one you now use. And I'm also very interested in what prompted you to begin using a mail list in the first place, and if your goals for the list have been realized. Please email answers to any or all of the questions directly to: joedysart@aol.com. And please include your name, title, company, city/state company location and Web address along with your response. Of course, I'll be glad to send you a copy of the resulting article. Looking forward to seeing your responses. -Joe Dysart Web Publisher Voice: (805) 379-3841 Email: joedysart@aol.com ==================================================== QUESTIONS REGARDING YOUR DECISION TO ADD A MAIL LIST TO YOUR WEB SITE ==================================================== *What company goals are you trying to achieve by offering a mail list on your Web site? *Have those goals been realized? *Do you feel your mail list fosters a sense of community among your Web site visitors? How so? *Does your mail list keep visitors coming back to your mail list? Why/why not? *Have you used your mail list for feedback on potential products and or services? If so, do you feel mail lists are a good tool for soliciting this feedback? *Do you use you mail list for customer service or technical support? If so, how, specifically, is the list being used to achieve this function? *Have you encountered any unexpected benefits/drawbacks of adding a mail list to your Web site? If so, please elaborate. *What type of software did you chose to incorporate a mail list onto your Web site, and why? *Were there any software glitches you had to overcome during the software installation? If so, how specifically did you overcome those glitches? *Do you run a moderated mail list, or unmoderated list? What factors influenced your decision? *What changes would you like to see in the next upgrade of the mail list software package you choose, and why? *Do you think the software you chose is the best mail list software for the job, or do you plan to use other software in the future? If so, which software will you use, and why? *What do you know now about mail list software that you wish you had known at the outset? *What type of computer hardware do you use t run your mail list software? (Please be specific.) *What type of software operating system do you use to run the mail list? (Please be specific.) *What is the Web address for your mail list sign-up? ============================================= FACTORS INFLUENCING YOUR CHOICE OF MAIL LIST SOFTWARE ============================================= *Which of these programs do you feel is best suited for use by a Web content publisher who is looking to add mailing list capability to a Web site, but is not well versed in computer-programming or at the system administrator level: 1) AltaVista Internet 2) Groupmaster 3) listserve 4) lyris 5) majordomo *Is there another mail list software program you believe is better suited to Web content developers with limited programming experience? *Why do you believe you choice above is best for this type of Web content publisher? *Users of Alta Vista Internet Software Mail Server ‘97 say they like the fact that the program is easy to set up. -Have you found this to be true? -What are some other benefits of the software? -What did you feel were the software's drawbacks? *Do you feel that one of listserv's great strengths is its ability to handle 10,000-plus members quickly and efficiently? Why or why not? *What features of listserve do you find most useful, and why? *Do you feel listserv's command-line interface could be intimidating to the novice user -- someone who is not a system administrator or computer programmer? Why or why not? *Do you feel that lyris requires users to possess a thorough understanding of PERL? Why or why not? *Do you feel lyris' overall performance is faster than those of other mail list programs. Why or why not? *Do you feel majordomo requires users to possess a thorough understanding of PERL? Why or why not? *Do you feel majordomo can be buggy when attempting to archive, digest and configure moderated mailing lists. Why or why not? ================================== QUESTIONS FOR GROUPMASTER USERS ================================== -What factors made you decide that Revnet Systems Groupmaster was the best program for the solution you were seeking? -Do you feel Revnet Systems detailed reporting feature is a big selling point for the software? Users of Listserve have indicated that the program is powerful, but difficult to use. -What features does Listserve have which cannot be found in Groupmaster? -What do you feel makes Listserve difficult to use? The same comment has been made of Lyris and Majordomo -- the programs are powerful, but difficult to use. -Again: What features do Lyris and Majordomo have which cannot be found in Groupmaster? -What makes Lyris and Majordomo difficult to use? *Have you taken advantage of the software's ability to deliver Web pages and PowerPoint presentations? If so, what kind of content was incorporated into that multimedia mail, and what company goals were you trying to achieve by sending that mail? THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR RESPONSES! --J.D. (END OF EMAIL TRANSMISSION) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Sep 17 22:02:51 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA14391 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id TAA14273 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.unicom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id TAA15388; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chip@localhost) by mail.unicom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA19573 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:32:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199709180232.VAA19573@mail.unicom.com> Subject: Re: ARTICLE RESEARCH: Leveraging Internet Mail Lists To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:32:57 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <970917214749_-1164055735@emout09.mail.aol.com> from "JoeDysart@aol.com" at Sep 17, 1997 09:48:49 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk JoeDysart@aol.com writes: > Web content publishers who may not be well versed in computer > programming beyond HTML. Anybody out there have a good binary search coded in HTML? -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development http://www.unicom.com/ Outlaw junk email * Support CAUCE http://www.cauce.org/ We Saved the Riverside Library! http://www.realtime.net/~chip/save-riverside/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Sep 17 22:29:15 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA01502 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.eskimo.com (mx1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.48]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id UAA25874 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA10939; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:38:43 -0700 From: Berg Received: by eskimo.com (8.8.7) id UAA26317; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709180338.UAA26317@eskimo.com> To: amys@amys-answers.com Subject: Re: List Owners and Site Managers[via LSMTP - see www.lsoft.com] Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk amys@amys-answers.com wrote: > I think the debate between Eric and Aldo-Pier raises some very > interesting questions. > 1. Does a list-owner REALLY own a list if they are not also > providing the resources to run that list? > 2. If a person is running a list on "borrowed" resources and seems > to be a detriment to the running of the list, does the site manager > have the "authority" to remove that listowner and replace them with > one that better suits "usage guidelines"? Define borrowed. I run a single list devoted to roleplaying games, which I get free with my ISP subscription. I pay for my net access, and I doubt that a case could be made that I am not paying for the resources my list uses (one list, ~60 subscribers). The resources needed to run that list are negligible. [Snip] > Personally, I think Eric went the extra mile when he was actually > attempting to make sure the list and archives would migrate intact. > My question is, "Why did he care?" Answering my own question, I can > only determine that SUNET believes the list to be a valuable resource > to the scientific community IN SPITE OF, NOT because of Aldo. And > Aldo thinks it's BECAUSE of him. > BUT SUNET, not Aldo, provided the resource. So who REALLY owns a > list? If you are the editor and owner of a free newsletter, and someone decides to donate resources to print that newsletter, who owns the newsletter? Aldo is in the same position with his mailing list, and if it were a free magazine or newspaper we were talking about, nobody would even think to dispute his ownership of it. -- Berg Oswell, SP3 with Clam Cluster, KoX, TIP #3051 Member: ARSCC, DNRC, HPC, Pope of Sector6 Email: berg@eskimo.com Finger for Geek Code. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Sep 17 23:17:46 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA25920 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id XAA25714 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (kynn.pom.primenet.com [204.212.52.58]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14436; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970917230434.00d0bcd8@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:04:34 -0700 To: JoeDysart@aol.com From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: ARTICLE RESEARCH: Leveraging Internet Mail Lists Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <970917214749_-1164055735@emout09.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Why does this entire "research" poll read like marketing research for the "Groupmaster" product, something I've never heard of before this? At 09:48 p.m. 09/17/97 -0400, JoeDysart@aol.com wrote: >*Which of these programs do you feel is best suited for use by a Web content >publisher who is looking to add mailing list capability to a Web site, but is >not well versed in computer-programming or at the system administrator level: > 1) AltaVista Internet > 2) Groupmaster > 3) listserve > 4) lyris > 5) majordomo Examples: >*Do you feel listserv's command-line interface could be intimidating to the >novice user -- someone who is not a system >administrator or computer programmer? Why or why not? Isn't this a real leading question? >*Do you feel that lyris requires users to possess a thorough understanding of >PERL? Why or why not? Isn't this a real leading question? >*Do you feel majordomo requires users to possess a thorough understanding of >PERL? Why or why not? Isn't this a real leading question? >*Do you feel majordomo can be buggy when attempting to archive, digest and >configure moderated mailing lists. Why or why not? Isn't this a real leading question? >================================== >QUESTIONS FOR GROUPMASTER USERS >================================== Isn't it interesting how one particular product gets its own "section"? >-Do you feel Revnet Systems detailed reporting feature is a big selling point >for the software? Isn't this merely an ad? >Users of Listserve have indicated that the program is powerful, but difficult >to use. > -What features does Listserve have which cannot be found in > Groupmaster? > -What do you feel makes Listserve difficult to use? Isn't this merely an ad? >The same comment has been made of Lyris and Majordomo -- the programs are >powerful, but difficult to use. > -Again: What features do Lyris and Majordomo have which cannot be >found in Groupmaster? > -What makes Lyris and Majordomo difficult to use? Isn't this merely an ad? >*Have you taken advantage of the software's ability to deliver Web pages and >PowerPoint presentations? If so, what kind of content was incorporated into >that multimedia mail, and what company goals were you trying to achieve by >sending that mail? Isn't this merely an ad? >THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR RESPONSES! --J.D. >(END OF EMAIL TRANSMISSION) No offense, but I find you to be about as phoney as a three dollar bill. (For those of you not in the US, they don't make $3 bills.) Please take your lame advertising pitch thinly veiled as "research" elsewhere. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Virtual Dog Show is open! www.dogshow.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 02:48:07 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id BAA25754 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.loud-n-clear.com (mailgate.loud-n-clear.com [194.159.6.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id BAA25675 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sleepy.demon.co.uk (sleepy.demon.co.uk [158.152.84.186]) by mailgate.loud-n-clear.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ka175068 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:59:02 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:27:30 +0000 To: amys@amys-answers.com Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Peter Scales Subject: Re: List Owners and Site Managers[via LSMTP - see www.lsoft.com] In-Reply-To: <199709161256.FAA28368@honor.greatcircle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.04 X-Info: Mailserver at loud-n-clear.com Ltd. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199709161256.FAA28368@honor.greatcircle.com>, Amy Stinson writes > >1. Does a list-owner REALLY own a list if they are not also >providing the resources to run that list? I'd say so - certainly for the lists we run, many of which are paid for by the list-owners (who are in my view therefore providing 'resources'). > >2. If a person is running a list on "borrowed" resources and seems >to be a detriment to the running of the list, does the site manager >have the "authority" to remove that listowner and replace them with >one that better suits "usage guidelines"? > A site manager has, ipso facto, ultimate authority to do as (s)he pleases with the site. If a list that was being run 'pro bono' (or paid for, for that matter) was bringing our site into disrepute, I would first ask that the problems be rectified and later simply close the list if my request went unheeded. The preservation of our hitherto good reputation and the smooth running of our site is my paramount concern. There is no appeal - it's *our* site. I'd provide zip files of all logs and archives and list membership files (and refund monies paid, if appropriate) and tell them to go elsewhere. -- Pete Peter Scales The Old Well House, Church Street, Prees, Shropshire SY13 2DQ +44 701 0708 422 From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 09:28:46 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA27591 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (cvobku.cvo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.189.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id IAA27534 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (MX G5.0) id 43; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:23:27 -1300 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:23:27 -1300 From: "Henry W. Miller" To: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM CC: henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV Message-ID: <009BA794.9A146677.43@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Subject: AOL buying up Compuserve Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I was in the process of updating the list welcome message for one of my lists about he importance of members picking up their mail on a regular basis if they use a service like AOL or Compuserve, to prevent their mailboxes from filling up and mail bouncing. Naturally, I ran it across the co-administrators for their perusal. One of them informed me that AOL had just bought Compuserve. Sure enough, I found it in this week's TIME Magazine. Now, in the past, there has been a lot of bashing of AOL and Compuserve both. I really don't want to reopen those old arguements. But, I was wondering if anyone had a knee-jerk (or other) reaction to how this is going to affect mail service to either or both classes of addresses? Maybe someone from AOL and/or Compuserve can comment? -HWM From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 09:32:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA00947 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk (cheviot.ncl.ac.uk [128.240.233.51]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id IAA25055 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.240.3.17] by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (8.7.6/ for ncl.ac.uk) with ESMTP; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:00:11 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:00:11 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: nmf3@pow.ncl.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199709170800.BAA29867@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Morna Findlay Subject: members rights ( Who "owns" a list?) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: "Alan Czarnek" said: >Well the list exists due to the listowner's work AND due to the people >who provided the hardware and technical expertise to run the server. > >The best way to keep these disaters from happening is to have >a clear agreement about list migration and ownership BEFORE you >start using another server. Excellent point which I will take on board today! >From: Russ Allbery said: >As far as I'm concerned, all mailing lists which I run are being run as a >public service. They are not "mine." They belong to the Internet >community at large; I am, at best, the trustee into whose charge they have >been put. [stuff deleted....] But in no way am I the *owner*; how could I >possibly >claim ownership over a forum which has been built of the contributions of >hundreds or thousands of other people? Another excellent point. does or does not a list take on a life of its own? What do members here think of a hypothetical case where say, a list-owner was not foinf list-administration, or was selectively moderating postings unfairly or in some other way was felt by the list MEMBERS to be better replaced by another person? Who owns the list then? I am talking in a moral" or old-fashioned internet-community sense here, not according to the laws of a particular country. Morna From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 12:29:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA00360 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id LAA00315 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyberfam.cais.com.pop.cais.com (cyberfam.cais.com [207.176.65.70]) by cais.cais.com (8.8.5/CJKv1.99-CAIS) with SMTP id OAA08714 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970918142335.00715dec@pop.cais.com> X-Sender: cyberfam@pop.cais.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:23:35 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Allison & Rick Martin Subject: Guidance for etiquette?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Anyone have a good guide or link to a guide for netiquette that we could use for our list members. We are starting a major education program on list manners and bandwidth waste. Thanks. Allison Martin cyberfam@cais.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 13:01:03 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA08819 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id LAA08810 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:56:19 -0700 (PDT) From: JoeDysart@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA02368; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:04:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:04:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970918150331_1629180201@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com cc: JoeDysart@aol.com, kynn@idyllmtn.com Subject: Authenticity of mailing list software article research Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Regarding Kynn Bartlett's post that follows: Kynn -- If you do a Lexis-Nexis search for my byline, you'll find that my work has appeared in more than 40 publications, including "The New York Times," and that I've been a journalist for 17 years. I'd be more than happy to evaluate your input to my questions on mail list software, no matter what mail list program you happen to prefer. -Joe Dysart Web Publisher Voice: (805) 379-3841 Email: joedysart@aol.com Why does this entire "research" poll read like marketing research for the "Groupmaster" product, something I've never heard of before this? At 09:48 p.m. 09/17/97 -0400, JoeDysart@aol.com wrote: >*Which of these programs do you feel is best suited for use by a Web content >publisher who is looking to add mailing list capability to a Web site, but is >not well versed in computer-programming or at the system administrator level: > 1) AltaVista Internet > 2) Groupmaster > 3) listserve > 4) lyris > 5) majordomo Examples: >*Do you feel listserv's command-line interface could be intimidating to the >novice user -- someone who is not a system >administrator or computer programmer? Why or why not? Isn't this a real leading question? >*Do you feel that lyris requires users to possess a thorough understanding of >PERL? Why or why not? Isn't this a real leading question? >*Do you feel majordomo requires users to possess a thorough understanding of >PERL? Why or why not? Isn't this a real leading question? >*Do you feel majordomo can be buggy when attempting to archive, digest and >configure moderated mailing lists. Why or why not? Isn't this a real leading question? >================================== >QUESTIONS FOR GROUPMASTER USERS >================================== Isn't it interesting how one particular product gets its own "section"? >-Do you feel Revnet Systems detailed reporting feature is a big selling point >for the software? Isn't this merely an ad? >Users of Listserve have indicated that the program is powerful, but difficult >to use. > -What features does Listserve have which cannot be found in > Groupmaster? > -What do you feel makes Listserve difficult to use? Isn't this merely an ad? >The same comment has been made of Lyris and Majordomo -- the programs are >powerful, but difficult to use. > -Again: What features do Lyris and Majordomo have which cannot be >found in Groupmaster? > -What makes Lyris and Majordomo difficult to use? Isn't this merely an ad? >*Have you taken advantage of the software's ability to deliver Web pages and >PowerPoint presentations? If so, what kind of content was incorporated into >that multimedia mail, and what company goals were you trying to achieve by >sending that mail? Isn't this merely an ad? >THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR RESPONSES! --J.D. >(END OF EMAIL TRANSMISSION) No offense, but I find you to be about as phoney as a three dollar bill. (For those of you not in the US, they don't make $3 bills.) Please take your lame advertising pitch thinly veiled as "research" elsewhere. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Virtual Dog Show is open! www.dogshow.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 13:13:59 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA09903 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailserver.idola.net.id (mailserver.idola.net.id [202.152.0.227]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id LAA29050 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from merak.idola.net.id (merak.IdOLA.net.id [202.152.0.251]) by mailserver.idola.net.id (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA28250 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:55:11 +0700 (JAVT) Received: from [202.152.1.209] by merak.idola.net.id; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/10Jun97-0700PM) id AA13019; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 01:17:01 +0700 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 01:17:01 +0700 Message-Id: <9709181817.AA13019@merak.idola.net.id> X-Sender: sabda@mail.idola.net.id X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (Michael C. Berch) From: Yulia dan Marc Subject: Spam Filter (was ..update<>) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Michael, and list, QUESTION: How does one set up "spam filter"s ... as indicated below ... ?? >> ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ >>Do YOU have Digital Satellite Television ? Do you WANT one ? <> [[removed ...]] >> ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ >Oh, swell... now we get spam attached to list-managers postings. And we get quite a few signatures that I would LOVE to filter .. of this and similar kinds, ... :-) ... and it is quite an annoyance to me and the lists!! >Please remove this from future postings; I have added it to the spam filter. How is this done .... ?? it is not a feature that I have seen in any of the MajorDomo literature ... ?? AND, if it is external to MajorDomo ... ... Must it be configured for the ALL of the lists ... ?? or can it be configured for only SOME of the lists ...?? etc..?? Thanks, ..Marc From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 13:15:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA13013 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com ([206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id MAA12874 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kynn@localhost) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23656; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:20:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Kynn Bartlett Message-Id: <199709181920.MAA23656@ayla.idyllmtn.com> Subject: Re: Authenticity of mailing list software article research To: JoeDysart@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, kynn@idyllmtn.com In-Reply-To: <970918150331_1629180201@emout16.mail.aol.com> from "JoeDysart@aol.com" at Sep 18, 97 03:04:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Regarding Kynn Bartlett's post that follows: > Kynn -- If you do a Lexis-Nexis search for my byline, you'll find that > my work has appeared in more than 40 publications, including "The > New York Times," and that I've been a journalist for 17 years. If you expect that your credentials are important to evaluating your "request", then you need to include that in your message. I don't know you from Adam -- and I shouldn't be expected to, any more than you should be expected to know who _I_ am. I don't recall ever seeing you posting on either the list-managers or majordomo- users mailing lists. Your "research", at best, reads as if you found an article about mailing list software someplace, cut out some of the filler, and reposted it as questions -- an article (or press release) heavily weighted toward one particular kind of software (Groupmaster). The answers you'll get, therefore, would be heavily biased by this, and thus rather questionable "journalism". I.e., the whole thing reads as "are you aware of these bad points about the list software you're using, and are you aware of the good points of Groupmaster?" If that was not your intention, then it's a shame, really -- an experienced writer such as yourself should really be able to ask questions in a less biased manner. By the way, your "survey" was seriously lacking as far as basic research done by _you_ -- a simple reading of the FAQ about "how to choose the mailing list software that's right for you" would have been a much better starting point than what- ever popular press article or Groupmaster press release you used. (As a glaring example -- there's no mention of listproc anywhere in your survey.) In summary: Your status as an established journalist does not afford you any special treatment when you come to this list; if you want to be taken seriously, don't post stuff that reads like ad copy. --Kynn Bartlett, won't list credentials From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 14:34:22 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA05738 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:29:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (kristeva.postmodern.com [198.102.244.54]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id OAA05648 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 198.102.244.52 (foucault.postmodern.com [198.102.244.52]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-960422) with ESMTP id OAA13765; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34219F20.60128596@postmodern.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:39:21 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01a (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: Yulia dan Marc Subject: Re: Spam Filter X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <9709181817.AA13019@merak.idola.net.id> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Yulia dan Marc wrote: > And we get quite a few signatures that I would LOVE to filter .. of > this and > similar kinds, ... :-) ... and it is quite an annoyance to me and the > lists!! > > >Please remove this from future postings; I have added it to the spam > >filter. > > How is this done .... ?? it is not a feature that I have seen in any > of theMajorDomo literature ... ?? It is the taboo_header and taboo_body features of Majordomo 1.94 and later. I'd suggest joining the Majordomo-Users list (for info: majordomousers-request@greatcircle.com) for details and discussion. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 16:19:52 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA08451 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from city.grande-prairie.ab.ca ([204.209.122.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id OAA08265 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cityfw1.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca id <27781-3>; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:49:33 -0600 Message-Id: <97Sep18.164933mdt.27781-3@cityfw1.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:48:47 -0600 From: Chet Meek Reply-To: cmeek@city.grande-prairie.ab.ca Organization: City of Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allison & Rick Martin CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Guidance for etiquette? -- reply References: <97Sep18.144854mdt.27781-1@cityfw1.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Allison & Rick Martin wrote: > > Anyone have a good guide or link to a guide for netiquette > that we could use for our list members. We are starting a > major education program on list manners and bandwidth waste. > > Thanks. Allison Martin Hi Allison and List Members, The City of Grande Prairie posts a Help with Internet E-mail and Mailing Lists page which has all the main points (but is aimed at beginners and is fairly lengthy). It is at: http://www.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca/h_email.htm It gets a lot of traffic, so somebody must be finding it helpful. It also has references to some shorter guides, including Kaitlin Sherwood's "Beginner's Guide to Effective Email", and Arlene Rinaldi's "The Net: User Guidelines and Netiquette," which are both widely regarded as helpful. The section with links to these other guides is at: http://www.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca/h_email.htm#Links_To_Guides Perhaps there will be something helpful in there somewhere. - Chet. ---[ Chet Meek ]--[ E-mail: cmeek@city.grande-prairie.ab.ca ]--- City of Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada Voice: 403+538-0443 1 9 9 7 -- Forest Capital of Canada Fax: 403+539-1056 --- WWWeb: http://www.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca/homepage.htm --- ---[ Strategic and Business Planning in a Municipal Setting ]--- Home of the CyberCity Initiative: readying GP for the Info Age From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 16:49:14 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA25277 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id QAA25157 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.wco.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id QAA25614; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from User.wco.com (clavius20.wco.com [199.4.109.20]) by shell.wco.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/WCO-18jul97) with SMTP id QAA15030; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970918162209.007d2930@mail.wco.com> X-Sender: 2bits@mail.wco.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:22:09 -0700 To: Allison & Rick Martin From: "Todd O." <2bits@wco.com> Subject: Re: Guidance for etiquette?? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970918142335.00715dec@pop.cais.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:23 PM 9/18/97 -0400, Allison & Rick Martin wrote: >Anyone have a good guide or link to a guide for netiquette that we could >use for our list members. We are starting a major education program on >list manners and bandwidth waste. Here are a couple of favorites of mine: http://www.webfoot.com/advice/email.top.html http://www.fau.edu/rinaldi/net/dis.html -- Todd Ourston * 2bits@wco.com * Marin County, California From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 17:18:43 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA20277 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id PAA20212 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:41:49 -0700 (PDT) From: JoeDysart@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id SAA03543 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:50:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:50:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970918184700_-731626392@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com cc: JoeDysart@aol.com Subject: Mailing List Software Article Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bill, Regarding your post below: My original intention in posting questions about mailing list software was to solicit insight from everyday users. If you're not comfortable with my questions, make up some of your own and send the answers along. If you'd like to send a general post about the primary reasons why you use the software you do, that's fine too. If you feel Revnet's Groupmaster software is not easier to use than more traditional mailing list software, let me know the specifics. If there are other software packages you believe should be mentioned, by all means, post those. Be as creative as you'd like in responding. -Joe Dysart Web Publisher Email: joedysart@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-18 17:31:49 EDT, you write: << Joe- Credentials aside, do you not agree that your questions are remarkably leading and potentially biased towards the one Revnet product? The fact that you are well published and legitimately writing an article is possibly even worse than if you were a disguised marketer as Kynn suggests. You appear to be heading toward an "unbiased" article with a favorite already in-hand. Personally, I was intrigued (to the point of almost responding) by your initial "mailing list effectiveness" questions, but became very skeptical as I continued on to read your product line of questioning. If the focus of your article will be GroupMaster, then please say so up front. If not, then change the questionnaire to use a more generic approach and I'm sure you will get better response from the groups. There are several other equally-capable listserver products missing from your list that you would be remiss in not covering. MAILING LIST EFFECTIVENESS Do you use mailing lists? What was the goal? Have they been effective? etc LIST SERVER PRODUCTS What product do you use? Did you evaluate others? Which ones? What factors influenced your decision? Has it proven effective? Has it been easy or difficult to administer? Why? Have users found it easy or difficult to use? Why? What do you like about it? What do you not like? What do you wish it did differently? Have you considered switching to another product? --bill >> From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 17:28:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA25727 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout30.mail.aol.com (emout30.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.135]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id QAA25648 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:18:49 -0700 (PDT) From: JoeDysart@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout30.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA25950 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970918184700_-731626392@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com cc: JoeDysart@aol.com Subject: Mailing List Software Article Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bill, Regarding your post below: My original intention in posting questions about mailing list software was to solicit insight from everyday users. If you're not comfortable with my questions, make up some of your own and send the answers along. If you'd like to send a general post about the primary reasons why you use the software you do, that's fine too. If you feel Revnet's Groupmaster software is not easier to use than more traditional mailing list software, let me know the specifics. If there are other software packages you believe should be mentioned, by all means, post those. Be as creative as you'd like in responding. -Joe Dysart Web Publisher Email: joedysart@aol.com In a message dated 97-09-18 17:31:49 EDT, you write: << Joe- Credentials aside, do you not agree that your questions are remarkably leading and potentially biased towards the one Revnet product? The fact that you are well published and legitimately writing an article is possibly even worse than if you were a disguised marketer as Kynn suggests. You appear to be heading toward an "unbiased" article with a favorite already in-hand. Personally, I was intrigued (to the point of almost responding) by your initial "mailing list effectiveness" questions, but became very skeptical as I continued on to read your product line of questioning. If the focus of your article will be GroupMaster, then please say so up front. If not, then change the questionnaire to use a more generic approach and I'm sure you will get better response from the groups. There are several other equally-capable listserver products missing from your list that you would be remiss in not covering. MAILING LIST EFFECTIVENESS Do you use mailing lists? What was the goal? Have they been effective? etc LIST SERVER PRODUCTS What product do you use? Did you evaluate others? Which ones? What factors influenced your decision? Has it proven effective? Has it been easy or difficult to administer? Why? Have users found it easy or difficult to use? Why? What do you like about it? What do you not like? What do you wish it did differently? Have you considered switching to another product? --bill >> From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 17:33:26 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA09697 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from avalon.dpc.com (avalon.dpc.com [192.101.159.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id RAA09543 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by avalon.dpc.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA16896 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:34:21 -0700 Received: from gate(10.30.0.166) by avalon via smap (V1.3) id sma016892; Thu Sep 18 17:34:17 1997 Received: from dpc.com (dell23.dpc.com [10.10.0.46]) by gate.dpc.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA01316 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:39:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3421C880.CB88EA40@dpc.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:34:08 -0700 From: Doug Fajardo X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Managers Subject: Re: List Owners and Site Managers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've seen a lot on the subject of "who owns the list...", and most replies emphasise the monetary support from the site, without acknowledging the very real time-and-effort contribution of the list manager. Does the site manager "own" a mailing list? Assuming he or she is not otherwise involved with the list, the answer is a clear "NO". The mailing list can be moved to another site without significant impact to the list. Of course, one could make the same point about the list manager - many lists can/do continue after a change of manager. So does he/she own the list? NO. Is "ownership" the right word for what we are talking about? Not really. The bottom line is that (IMHO) a list is actually owned by the people who use it. They are the ONLY part of a list that is unique - and critical - to its continued existence. Should the manager of the list be doing a bad job, then (a) the membership (of the list) will drop or (b) Someone will start a new list (to do the same job). This (IMHO) is as it should be; if the new list is successfull, the manager of the old list aught to recognize that he(or she) he has blown it. How does the site owner fit in? If he (or she) doesn't like what is happening on a list he is supporting, then have the list removed from his system. If another list does the same job (ie: same topic) in a more acceptable fashion, the site owner is free to support that other list. Of course, the "new" list is useless until people decide to use it; If the old list was really doing the job, then the new list will soon die. Just my personal opinion. -- Doug Fajardo (dfajard@dpc.com) Systems Analyst Dataproducts Corp (805) 578-4211 From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 17:47:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA10593 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id QAA01444 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (grev.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.108]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28380; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970918164624.00ebe420@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:46:24 -0700 To: Allison & Rick Martin From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Guidance for etiquette?? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970918142335.00715dec@pop.cais.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:23 p.m. 09/18/97 -0400, Allison & Rick Martin wrote: >Anyone have a good guide or link to a guide for netiquette that we could >use for our list members. We are starting a major education program on >list manners and bandwidth waste. The HTML Writers Guild has a netiquette guide and a set of "actionable rules" which we use on our lists. You can find the NG at: http://www.hwg.org/lists/netiquette.html This includes a link to ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc1855.txt, RFC 1855. (Actionable rules are things that can warrant a temporary or permanent suspension, and are listed on http://www.hwg.org/lists/rules.html) -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Virtual Dog Show is open! www.dogshow.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 19:20:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA15933 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wubios.wustl.edu (wubios.wustl.edu [128.252.117.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id RAA15857 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from phil@localhost) by wubios.wustl.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA06519 From: "J. Philip Miller" Message-Id: <199709190106.UAA06519@wubios.wustl.edu> Subject: Re: Mailing List Software Article To: JoeDysart@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:06:37 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <970918184700_-731626392@emout14.mail.aol.com> from "JoeDysart@aol.com" at Sep 18, 97 06:50:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Bill, > > Regarding your post below: > > My original intention in posting questions about mailing list > software was to solicit insight from everyday users. If you're > not comfortable with my questions, make up some of your own > and send the answers along. If you'd like to send a general post > about the primary reasons why you use the software you do, that's > fine too. If you feel Revnet's Groupmaster software is not easier > to use than more traditional mailing list software, let me know > the specifics. If there are other software packages you believe > should be mentioned, by all means, post those. > Be as creative as you'd like in responding. What many of us object to is your apparent hidden agenda. I have to say that I had to do a net search to even see what GroupMaster was - I had never even heard of it and there is not a list that I know of that is run with that software. This made me dismiss the entire questionare as being from someone who had some strange place they were coming from. Now color me hopelessly old fashion, but in my environment I am not willing to pay the price for systems administration to add an NT server just to support mailing lists. I am reluctant to purchase a product which appears to be oriented for only a single platform. Having been the administrator of both LISTSERV and MajorDomo lists, I can appreciate the ups and downs of both of them. I suspect that most list owners are like me and the reasons we are using particular software has historical roots that may not be relevant for someone who is setting up a site from scratch. When we started hosting sites on our Unix system, LISTSERV was not available so we did MajorDomo. The benefits of alternatives have never been so great as to justify conversion costs. Changing the software of a popular, well publisized lists is not a fun experience. Thus some of us would be a little more cooperative if we felt you knew something about an area before springing a multipage questionaire on us! -phil > > > -Joe Dysart > Web Publisher > Email: joedysart@aol.com > > -- J. Philip Miller, Professor, Division of Biostatistics, Box 8067 Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis MO 63110 phil@wubios.WUstl.edu - (314) 362-3617 [362-2693(FAX)] http://www.biostat.wustl.edu/~phil From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 19:33:42 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA03392 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kparker.nai.net (kparker.nai.net [208.133.166.213]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id TAA03315 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (admin@localhost) by kparker.nai.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA29889; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:36:40 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:36:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Parker Reply-To: Ken Parker To: JoeDysart@aol.com cc: List Managers Subject: Re: Authenticity of mailing list software article research In-Reply-To: <970918150331_1629180201@emout16.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Joe, I was also put off by the lack of mention of the e-mail list software I'm using (Listproc 6.0c). Also, with my e-mail list (and probably the majority of list managers on this list), web based software is beside the point as I do NOT post my e-mail list on the web. (The only way to make an e-mail list completely universal is to make it available to someone who ONLY has e-mail, including, for example, Juno subscribers). That means that subscribes, unsubscribes, etc, can be sent COMPLETELY via e-mail. I'm even leary of posting list archives on the web due to Spam-Bots which steal e-mail addresses. In addition, I and, I believe, a majority of list managers on this list, use some version of Unix (I use Linux, for example, a Freeware variety of Unix). Based on your mention of Groupmaster doing Powerpoint presentations, it sounds like a Windows NT (or maybe Windows 95) only product. Is that correct? Also, two of the common list packages (Majordomo and Listproc 6.0c) are available free of charge. How much does Groupmaster cost? Finally, your questions on list content seem biased towards product support and advertising lists. The list I run (Sethworks, based on the books by Jane Roberts: see http://kparker.nai.net/seth/ for more information if desired) is a standard, non-commercial, topic-based discussion list, which doesn't appear to fit your question categories. This questionaire DOES seem biased towards one type of list manager, which I believe is in a SMALL minority on the list-managers e-mail list. Do you have feedback to my feedback? Ken Parker (http://kparker.nai.net) P.S. I have no trouble with the command sets of Listserv, Listproc, or Majordomo, and belong to lists based on all three. In addition, I DO know Perl, at least enough to be dangerous. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 18 23:33:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA07991 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pentioum90.silverquick.com (mail.omegaweb.co.uk [194.205.38.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id WAA07962 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.205.38.50] by pentioum90.silverquick.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ua246994 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 06:38:14 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970919063200.009e61f0@post.silverquick.com> X-Sender: gordon@post.silverquick.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 06:32:04 +0100 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Gordon Burns Subject: Re: Authenticity of mailing list software article research Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk That was not the question Joe. The question is was really was this a piece on Independent research or were you commissioned by a particular software company. The questionnaire does not appear level, you have not answered any of these questions. It does not include one list server that handles a membership newsletter of over 200,000 and subscription requests running around the 1000 per day mark and I can think of other products not mentioned. Someone is going to ask it so ut may as well be me. What connection do you have with Groupmaster/Revnet? I am sure it is an excellent product but is one that I have no practical experience. Gordon At 15:04 18/09/97 -0400 JoeDysart@aol.com said.... >Regarding Kynn Bartlett's post that follows: > > Kynn -- If you do a Lexis-Nexis search for my byline, you'll find that >my work has appeared in more than 40 publications, including "The >New York Times," and that I've been a journalist for 17 years. > I'd be more than happy to evaluate your input to my questions on >mail list software, no matter what mail list program you happen to >prefer. > >-Joe Dysart > Web Publisher > Voice: (805) 379-3841 > Email: joedysart@aol.com > > >Why does this entire "research" poll read like marketing >research for the "Groupmaster" product, something I've >never heard of before this? > >At 09:48 p.m. 09/17/97 -0400, JoeDysart@aol.com wrote: >>*Which of these programs do you feel is best suited for use by a Web content >>publisher who is looking to add mailing list capability to a Web site, but >is >>not well versed in computer-programming or at the system administrator >level: >> 1) AltaVista Internet >> 2) Groupmaster >> 3) listserve >> 4) lyris >> 5) majordomo > >Examples: >>*Do you feel listserv's command-line interface could be intimidating to the >>novice user -- someone who is not a system >>administrator or computer programmer? Why or why not? > >Isn't this a real leading question? > >>*Do you feel that lyris requires users to possess a thorough understanding >of >>PERL? Why or why not? > >Isn't this a real leading question? > >>*Do you feel majordomo requires users to possess a thorough understanding of >>PERL? Why or why not? > >Isn't this a real leading question? > >>*Do you feel majordomo can be buggy when attempting to archive, digest and >>configure moderated mailing lists. Why or why not? > >Isn't this a real leading question? > >>================================== >>QUESTIONS FOR GROUPMASTER USERS >>================================== > >Isn't it interesting how one particular product gets its own >"section"? > >>-Do you feel Revnet Systems detailed reporting feature is a big selling >point >>for the software? > >Isn't this merely an ad? > >>Users of Listserve have indicated that the program is powerful, but >difficult >>to use. >> -What features does Listserve have which cannot be found in >> Groupmaster? >> -What do you feel makes Listserve difficult to use? > >Isn't this merely an ad? > >>The same comment has been made of Lyris and Majordomo -- the programs are >>powerful, but difficult to use. >> -Again: What features do Lyris and Majordomo have which cannot be >>found in Groupmaster? >> -What makes Lyris and Majordomo difficult to use? > >Isn't this merely an ad? > >>*Have you taken advantage of the software's ability to deliver Web pages and >>PowerPoint presentations? If so, what kind of content was incorporated into >>that multimedia mail, and what company goals were you trying to achieve by >>sending that mail? > >Isn't this merely an ad? > >>THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR RESPONSES! --J.D. >>(END OF EMAIL TRANSMISSION) > >No offense, but I find you to be about as phoney as a three >dollar bill. (For those of you not in the US, they don't >make $3 bills.) > >Please take your lame advertising pitch thinly veiled as >"research" elsewhere. > > >-- > /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com > / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet > / \ //\ /\ \ / \ >'_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Virtual Dog Show is open! www.dogshow.com > > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Sep 19 00:03:59 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA21472 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id XAA21465 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kidzen@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA13814; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:07:15 -0700 Received: from erzo.org by erzo.org (8.7.5/LUCK-AND-DEATH-1.3) id HAA11887; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:02:03 GMT Message-Id: <199709190702.HAA11887@erzo.org> To: "Henry W. Miller" cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM, appel@erzo.org Subject: Re: AOL buying up Compuserve Reply-To: appel@erzo.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:23:27 -1300." <009BA794.9A146677.43@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:02:03 -0700 From: Shannon Appel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Given that Compuserve had traditionally been much worse about following the Mail RFC than AOL, I'm pleased as punch. I expect to have less troubles with truncated messages (compuserve's response to a piece of mail bigger than 30k) and fewer mail loops (which compuserve occasionally generated on bounces). Shannon From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Sep 19 10:49:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA20368 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ladybug.seas.gwu.edu (ladybug.seas.gwu.edu [128.164.9.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id KAA20312 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seas.gwu.edu (felix.seas.gwu.edu [128.164.9.3]) by ladybug.seas.gwu.edu (v8) with ESMTP id NAA12436 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gypsy.seas.gwu.edu (sheryl@gypsy [128.164.2.10]) by seas.gwu.edu (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA29723 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:32:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheryl Coppenger Received: by gypsy.seas.gwu.edu id AA09667; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:32:49 -0400 Message-Id: <9709191732.AA09667@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu> Subject: Re: List Owners and Site Managers[via LSMTP - see www.lsoft.com] To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:32:48 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199709180338.UAA26317@eskimo.com> from "Berg" at Sep 17, 97 08:38:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk berg@eskimo.com wrote: > > amys@amys-answers.com wrote: > > I think the debate between Eric and Aldo-Pier raises some very > > interesting questions. > > > 1. Does a list-owner REALLY own a list if they are not also > > providing the resources to run that list? I think the question is even more basic -- does a list-owner REALLY own a list if they're not providing all of the content as well as hardware resources. I would tend to say no. It's a collaborative effort and the importance of the list "owner" varies. > > 2. If a person is running a list on "borrowed" resources and seems > > to be a detriment to the running of the list, does the site manager > > have the "authority" to remove that listowner and replace them with > > one that better suits "usage guidelines"? > > Define borrowed. I run a single list devoted to roleplaying > games, which I get free with my ISP subscription. I pay for my net > access, and I doubt that a case could be made that I am not paying for the > resources my list uses (one list, ~60 subscribers). The resources needed > to run that list are negligible. Resources are more than just hardware and are not always proportional to # of subscribers. I'm a sysadmin and we have about 60 lists of varying sizes. If one has a "high maintenance" list owner, it can chew up admin and harware resources way out of proportion to the number of subscribers. In general I would think that if you're paying an ISP you have more claims than someone who is not paying his upkeep -- presumably the ISP is pricing things so that costs for X high-maintenance lists is balanced by Y low- maintenance lists. Nonprofits don't have the option of charging everybody an extra $3/month. But I still would think that if you move on and take your list with you, your ISP would be entitled to keep a roleplaying list going on its own machines with another owner if it so desired. And if your subscribers liked that list better, then your list might die. What would be the gripe, alienation of affection? You don't own the subscribers certainly. > > [Snip] > > > Personally, I think Eric went the extra mile when he was actually > > attempting to make sure the list and archives would migrate intact. > > My question is, "Why did he care?" Answering my own question, I can > > only determine that SUNET believes the list to be a valuable resource > > to the scientific community IN SPITE OF, NOT because of Aldo. And > > Aldo thinks it's BECAUSE of him. I am just catching up on the list after being on vacation. I was rather disappointed at the criticism dumped on Eric Thomas. Perhaps it is because I can identify so well with working for a nonprofit, trying to do something for the user community and then being burned by someone with an unearned sense of entitlement. Certainly that doesn't happen all the time, some of the experiences have worked out well and most of them have at least been OK. But when they are bad, they tend to be bad in a dramatic way and I have been rather ballistic on occasion myself. I've also been in the position of having to obey an order I didn't necessarily agree with. The admin is not automatically the bad guy just because he isn't doing what the list owner wants him to do and I'm glad that Amy pointed out that he seemed to be extending himself to look out after the interests of the *subscribers* of the list. After all, the list is supposed to be there for the community rather than for the list owner's ego, right? > > BUT SUNET, not Aldo, provided the resource. So who REALLY owns a > > list? > > If you are the editor and owner of a free newsletter, and someone > decides to donate resources to print that newsletter, who owns the > newsletter? Aldo is in the same position with his mailing list, and if it > were a free magazine or newspaper we were talking about, nobody would even > think to dispute his ownership of it. Well, maybe and maybe not. In this case, Aldo probably can't even claim to be editor. He certainly doesn't own content that he didn't write and has no copyright agreement on. Consider that the telephone company was not even able to assert copyright on the telephone book that it assembled. I am not a lawyer but I do seem to recall that in the copyright sense, ownership rights require significant *creative* work (not sweat equity) and that you can't copyright an idea -- just the expression of the idea. That's why (ignoring time frame) Shakespeare would have been able to copyright Romeo and Juliet but would not be able to sue for infringement over West Side Story. Bernstein stole an idea which Shakespeare stole from someone else before him. If Shakespeare expressed the idea better than Bernstein, Romeo and Juliet would survive, West Side Story wouldn't. There is no payment for subscriptions, there is no creative product really, what exactly does Aldo "own"? Don't get me wrong, list managers have a difficult, thankless task (as do sysadmins). It's a good thing for a list manager to have a sense of ownership to the extent of trying to do a good job. But primarily it's a task of love or it's nothing. If Aldo was doing a good job on SUNET and continues to do a good job on MIT, the subscribers will follow and it will continue to be a success. If someone else does it better, the subscribers will migrate to that list. If a list owner owns anything, it's good will and Eric or any sysadmin can't do anything about that. IMHO Aldo just should have moved on quietly instead of slinging mud. Just my $.02. -- Sheryl Coppenger SEAS Computing Facility Staff sheryl@seas.gwu.edu The George Washington University (202) 994-6853 http://www.seas.gwu.edu/staff/sheryl From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 08:05:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA19421 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nntp.cs.ubc.ca (nntp.cs.ubc.ca [142.103.6.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id HAA19365 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs.ubc.ca (uucp@news.cs.ubc.ca [142.103.6.2]) by nntp.cs.ubc.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA01051; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cs.ubc.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) id IAA09968; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:01:23 -0700 (PDT) >Received: from mornir.gweep.bc.ca by edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca (Sendmail 8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA32016; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:31:14 -0700 Received: from cs.ubc.ca by nnrp.cs.ubc.ca; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:01 PDT Received: from mornir.gweep.bc.ca by edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca (Sendmail 8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA32016; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:31:14 -0700 Received: (from edmonds@localhost) by mornir.gweep.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA18240; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:31:03 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: Allison & Rick Martin Subject: Re: Guidance for etiquette?? X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.29 #1 Wed Mar 19 20:11:02 PST 1997 X-Geek: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/doc/geek.html X-Homepage: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds X-PGP-Ox6E86B769: This key is obsolete, please discard it. X-PGP-Ox979D0B09: A9 3E 1E CB 86 09 B1 E9 3C 1A 0E F6 49 F9 5D 99 Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) From: edmonds@cs.ubc.ca (Brian Edmonds) Date: 22 Sep 1997 07:31:02 -0700 In-Reply-To: Allison & Rick Martin's message of "Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:23:35 -0400" Message-ID: <37202hto7t.fsf@mornir.gweep.bc.ca> Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.65/XEmacs 20.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rick Martin writes: > Anyone have a good guide or link to a guide for netiquette that we > could use for our list members. Feel free to use my list etiquette FAQ: Brian. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 11:50:52 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id JAA07179 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tower.itis.com (itis.com [209.83.0.131]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id JAA07120 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skuld (r9.itis.com [209.83.6.42]) by tower.itis.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA18196 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:59:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199709221659.LAA18196@tower.itis.com> Reply-To: From: "Katim S. Touray" To: Subject: Posting Copyrighted News on a Mailing List Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:56:24 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi there, i would like to know your thoughts on the issue of people posting copyrighted news on mailing lists. i help run a mailing list and subscribers sometimes send in news items culled from copyrighted sources, e.g. Reuters. one of our members has questioned the ethics, and legality of this, and is generating a lot of angst among some subscribers. what do you folks think, and are there any resources (FAQs, Web sites, etc) on the subject i can find on the 'Net? thanks a lot for your help. Katim. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 12:20:16 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA01607 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id MAA01507 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id OAA22248 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:15:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199709221915.OAA22248@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: Posting Copyrighted News on a Mailing List Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 14:15:43 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9/22/97 11:56 AM, Katim S. Touray wrote... >i would like to know your thoughts on the issue of people posting >copyrighted news on mailing lists. The proper way to do it is to post a brief snippet or summary, citing the source, and then give a URL (or something comparable) where people can read the whole article or get more information on the subject. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 12:25:27 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA04933 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brickbat9.mindspring.com (brickbat9.mindspring.com [207.69.200.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id MAA04678 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [38.11.195.221] (ip221.san-francisco2.ca.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.195.221]) by brickbat9.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA22296; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:25:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: themet@pop.mindspring.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199709221659.LAA18196@tower.itis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:23:00 -0700 To: , From: "Mark E. Taylor" Subject: Re: Posting Copyrighted News on a Mailing List Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:56 AM -0500 9/22/97, Katim S. Touray wrote: >i help run a mailing list and subscribers sometimes send in news >items >culled from copyrighted sources, e.g. Reuters. one of our members >has >questioned the ethics, and legality of this, and is generating a lot >of >angst among some subscribers. what do you folks think, and are >there any >resources (FAQs, Web sites, etc) on the subject i can find on the >'Net? It is one thing to quote from the article but it is another thing to reproduce it without the permission of the copyright holder. The wire services are adamant that reposting their news stories without permission is a violation of their copyright unless you first have permission. So I would not allow posting of copyrighted news stories on your mailing list unless you have permission from the copyright holder in hand. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 12:31:52 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA01610 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wubios.wustl.edu (wubios.wustl.edu [128.252.117.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id MAA01566 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from phil@localhost) by wubios.wustl.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA24821 From: "J. Philip Miller" Message-Id: <199709221915.OAA24821@wubios.wustl.edu> Subject: Re: Posting Copyrighted News on a Mailing List To: dekat@itis.com Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:15:17 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199709221659.LAA18196@tower.itis.com> from "Katim S. Touray" at Sep 22, 97 11:56:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Hi there, > > i would like to know your thoughts on the issue of people posting > copyrighted news on mailing lists. > > i help run a mailing list and subscribers sometimes send in news items > culled from copyrighted sources, e.g. Reuters. one of our members has > questioned the ethics, and legality of this, and is generating a lot of > angst among some subscribers. what do you folks think, and are there any > resources (FAQs, Web sites, etc) on the subject i can find on the 'Net? > we have taken the position on sci.med.aids (which is moderated) that when the entire articles is sent verbatim, then it is a clear violation unless permisssion has been obtained. We take the position that a moderated list is clearly a publication. I have also had the same policy for nonmoderated groups, sending reminders to the list and offendors. -phil > thanks a lot for your help. > > Katim. > -- J. Philip Miller, Professor, Division of Biostatistics, Box 8067 Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis MO 63110 phil@wubios.WUstl.edu - (314) 362-3617 [362-2693(FAX)] http://www.biostat.wustl.edu/~phil From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 12:36:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA06071 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id MAA06016 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway.tssi.com [198.147.197.29]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA16264; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA06214; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:18 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17780; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:16 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199709221929.OAA17780@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Posting Copyrighted News on a Mailing List To: dekat@itis.com Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:16 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199709221659.LAA18196@tower.itis.com> from "Katim S. Touray" at Sep 22, 97 11:56:24 am Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > i would like to know your thoughts on the issue of people posting > copyrighted news on mailing lists. > > i help run a mailing list and subscribers sometimes send in news items > culled from copyrighted sources, e.g. Reuters. one of our members has > questioned the ethics, and legality of this, and is generating a lot of > angst among some subscribers. what do you folks think, and are there any > resources (FAQs, Web sites, etc) on the subject i can find on the 'Net? I'm a bit of an extremist on this, but I work with publishers for a living and am probably more sensitive to intellectual property issues as a result. I (or my list subscribers) have on occasion sought permission from the copyright holder to repost copyrighted material, and I know of a few sports lists that have arrangements with the local media to do that on a regular basis. Here's the relevant section of my list guidelines (the whole document is available by sending e-mail to unlfaq@tssi.com), including a reference to Brad Templeton's 'copyright myths' web page: 8. Absolutely no violations of copyrights, trademarks, service marks, logos, etc. will be permitted. Do not repost news stories from wire services or online services, material you found on web sites, or type in stories or someone's column from your local newspaper. For a brief introduction to the issue of copyrights, especially in cyberspace, see http://www.clarinet.com/brad/copymyths.html. Posting the URL of web pages with Husker content on them is generally permitted and encouraged, but posting the text from someone's web page without explicit permission is a copyright violation and is not permitted. The issue of whether links violate copyright is as of yet undecided, though, so this could change based on future court rulings. Posters are strongly encouraged to give a short summary of the information to be found on a web page when posting its URL, both as a courtesy to those subscribers who do not have web capability and as an aid for those with limited time, so that they only need hit the sites that they are the most likely to find informative. If you must quote from a published source, do so very sparingly, paraphrasing is better. Raw facts cannot be copyrighted, so game statistics are permitted, but analysis of those statistics would be an 'intellectual act' and thus protected under the copyright law. Posts which violate the law or encourage someone else to violate the law are also forbidden. Significant copyright violations, whether inadvertent or otherwise, may result in immediate sanctions against the poster. -- Mike Nolan From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 13:51:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA13389 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id MAA13380 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA24283; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709222002.NAA24283@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: dekat@itis.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@shell7.ba.best.com In-reply-to: <199709221659.LAA18196@tower.itis.com> (dekat@itis.com) Subject: Re: Posting Copyrighted News on a Mailing List Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk All texts are copyrighted until they fall into the public domain, so I won't use the term "copyrighted" as you did to refer to published works owned by a news agency. It is definately breaking copyright laws for anyone to post something they didn't write without either the permission of the copyright holder (the author unless stated otherwise...in the case of the news orgs, they are the copyright holders) or reposting that falls under "fair use." Fair use is often abused but generally means it's okay to quote small bits of something. There are other exceptions in common practice. Like most people do not object if you repost something they've written elsewhere if it's not personal. As long as you don't claim authorship. And of course you can quote someone's post in full if you are responding to it. The law here is somewhat uncertain (and my knowledge of it even more uncertain). What is clear, however, is that news agencies get pretty pissed off if their articles are republished (taht includes usenet groups and mailing lists) without express permission. And the law is in their favor. The rule on my mailing list is no reprints of articles you didn't write, unless you get permission from the copyright holder (exceptions for things that are clearly announments, like info on conferences or new lists, or messages that say, "please distribute this"). They must then state that permission in the first line of the post. When a message that violates this rule comes through anyway, I don't put it in the archives and I contact the poster. I tell people they should summerize the article (and/or provide short quotes) and then give a full reference to it. An on-line ref is even better. Frankly, I don't worry about the "articles" that are only a paragraph or so long and have even sent some of those myself on occaision. Everysoften you will get someone who constantly forwards posts from other mailing lists as well as news agency items. That's when I really crack down. I read them the riot act for copyright (and privacy, when it concerns people's personal posts to other lists) infringement. I don't think I've ever failed to get someone to stop. I think it does enrich a list to have occainsional full reprints of articles so this strict policy of mine can put a damper on it. But I think about how much I'd hate it if *my* work got sent places without my permission. There are times when bending (or breaking) the law is a reasonable thing...this is not one of them. Hope this was helpful. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 14:05:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA12478 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id MAA12351 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12334 ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:56:39 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199709221659.LAA18196@tower.itis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:55:29 -0700 To: , From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Posting Copyrighted News on a Mailing List Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:56 AM -0700 9/22/97, Katim S. Touray wrote: >i help run a mailing list and subscribers sometimes send in news items >culled from copyrighted sources, e.g. Reuters. We do not allow it. First time offenders get warned, multiple-offenders get nuked. It's not legal (it's always amusing to see the "do not redistribute...." footers show up on the mail), and I know of cases where lists have been shut down because they got nailed by the group the material's been grabbed from. chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 15:11:54 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA03715 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id OAA03665 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from remote.control.com (remote.control.com [140.186.37.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id MAA03920 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by machine.control.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:42:23 -0400 Message-ID: <2AD5C2DDB0C3D0118D9F00609754111A3EA43C@machine.control.com> From: Jennifer Powell To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:42:20 -0400 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Russ Allbery wrote: Understanding this has been part of Internet etiquette for years, and is one of the major reasons behind the maxim that on-line disputes should not ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ be taken off-line unless there is absolutely no other recourse. ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Could you please explain this? I don't see why one should "not" take a dispute offline. Perhaps it depends on the type of dispute... and I am not sure what it has to do with the unofficial status of most lists. I'm new to this list, been moderating a list for 2 years (discussion of industrial automation), but am relatively new to moderator/manager "culture". Thanks, Jennifer Powell jennifer@control.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 15:17:55 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA01615 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id OAA01602 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom5.netcom.com (netcom5.netcom.com [192.100.81.113]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id HAA14179 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (grafolog@localhost) by netcom5.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.01)) with SMTP id HAA03996 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:12:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: netcom5.netcom.com: grafolog owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:12:08 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon X-Sender: grafolog@netcom5 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.Com Subject: Re: FISH-ECOLOGY update In-Reply-To: <68A75D74A0@cicei.ulpgc.es> Message-ID: x-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Aldo-Pier Solari wrote: > It sounds pretty biased to me: Realistic, not biased. > I received several requests from list > owners to *keep them* informed on this case. That should have clued in you that creating a mailing list to discuss your petty dispute would be a very good idea. > respons was bad. It looks we lack organization capacity: There's a > coporativism among sysops which I hardly find among list owners. Assuming you meant "corporatism" instead of "coporativism", Gomma Gamma. The only thing that appears to be lacking is a _written_ contract between the "List Owner" and either the "System Administrator" or "Mailing List Manager" or the entity that hired either of the latter. Since you appear not to have reduced the lesson the first time around, perhaps you'll learn it this time. Always get a written contract, when you have a list setup. xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com MO/TH++++p S* G++ QO++ 666++++ Y+++ !W C++ N* POT D6 s++++ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 15:34:59 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA08257 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id PAA08233 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from infostreet.com (infostreet.com [207.240.104.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id NAA21464 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shiraz.infostreet.com (atlanta.instantweb.com [207.240.105.12]) by infostreet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA10772; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:17:29 -0700 Message-Id: <199709182017.NAA10772@infostreet.com> Reply-To: "Siamak Farah" From: "Siamak Farah" To: , "Allison & Rick Martin" Subject: Re: Guidance for etiquette?? Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:09:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1008.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.1008.3 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Anyone have a good guide or link to a guide for netiquette that we could >use for our list members. We are starting a major education program on >list manners and bandwidth waste. visit www.fabrik.com they have an email netiquette guide either online, or will send you one. Siamak Farah sia@InfoStreet.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- InfoStreet is Hiring. Details at http://www.infostreet.com/frames/employment/employment.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- InfoStreet, Inc. 18345 Ventura Blvd, Suite 416 Tarzana, CA 91356-4243 818-776-8080-Tel 818-776-2999-Fax http://www.infostreet.com http://www.instantweb.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Allison & Rick Martin To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thursday, September 18, 1997 12:57 PM Subject: Guidance for etiquette?? From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 15:43:16 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA04770 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id OAA02096 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [199.125.85.28]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id JAA02743 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA32656; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:20:11 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:20:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: brozen@torah.org To: "Henry W. Miller" Cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM Subject: RE: Threatening to sue In-Reply-To: <009BA68F.1BDA0777.7@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Message-Id: X-Backup: Disable X-Url: http://www.torah.org/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Henry W. Miller wrote: > That's great that you've got somebody on your side at the Smokie > office. I've had other problems with people attempting to unsubscribe > that have led to some rather interesting trickle down manuevers. But I > have to ask: didn't the individual who threatened to sue attempt to > contact ANYONE in your office first for assiatance, or were they just > being a pain in the backside? (We've ALL had those type of subscribers, > haven't we? I had one who was so bad, we could not remember the simple > instructions sent to him on how to unsubscribe, over and over and over > again, but he could certainly fling obscene remarks at the rest of the > list, until I set up NOPOST...) The person didn't know the original e-mail address that he had subscribed under -- and obviously must not have kept the instructions sent to him when he was first subscribed! ----------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@torah.org | http://www.torah.org/~brozen | ----------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 15:47:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA08227 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id PAA08210 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dns01.ops.usa.net (dns01.ops.usa.net [204.68.24.137]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id MAA15178 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16389 invoked by alias); 18 Sep 1997 19:37:07 -0000 Message-ID: <19970918193707.16388.qmail@dns01.ops.usa.net> Received: (qmail 16300 invoked from network); 18 Sep 1997 19:36:59 -0000 Received: from 225.houston-01.tx.dial-access.att.net (HELO compaq) (12.65.128.225) by dns01.ops.usa.net with SMTP; 18 Sep 1997 19:36:59 -0000 From: "Alan Czarnek" To: "Morna Findlay" Cc: Subject: Re: members rights ( Who "owns" a list?) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:36:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1008.3 X-MimeOle: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.1008.3 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>does or does not a list take on a life of its own? What do members here >think of a hypothetical case where say, a list-owner was not doing >list-administration, or was >selectively moderating postings unfairly or in some other way was felt by >the list MEMBERS >to be better replaced by another person? > >Who owns the list then? > --------- Because of the structure of most list software, it is virtually impossible for the list subscribers to evict a 'listowner' from that position if he/she does not want to leave. However, ( also, because of the structure of most list software) it is fairly easy to set up a competing list on another server. And that is what usually happens with a group of subscribers who are not happy with the way a list is run. A listowner who also runs a server (or pays for it) can be said to be the owner, just like the man who owns a gas station can be said to be the owner. And a list that is poorly run will have few subscribers just like a gas station that is poorly run will have few customers......... Cz From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 15:49:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA04520 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id OAA04395 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id DAA07867 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 03:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaden.math.ethz.ch (bollow@vaden [129.132.146.136]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.6.12/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id MAA18790; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:56:41 +0200 Received: (bollow@localhost) by vaden.math.ethz.ch (8.6.9/D-MATH-client) id MAA02077; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:56:41 +0200 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:56:41 +0200 Message-Id: <199709181056.MAA02077@vaden.math.ethz.ch> From: Norbert Bollow To: spectra@cashflow.com CC: sbrooks@earthlink.net, ecoe@worldnet.att.net, LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199709180029.UAA25384@flamingo.bahamas.net.bs> (message from Irwin on Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:29:43 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: FISH-ECOLOGY update<> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Irwin wrote concerning the "FISH-ECOLOGY" debate: > Could someone make a summary of where we are at this stage ? Both sides have had their say. Some onlookers were annoyed, others have learned something. I learned something even though I'm annoyed. Now it is time to move on and do something constructive. Sheryl Coe wrote: > I feel for the individuals involved. It is obvious that if it were not > for the personal animosity between these parties, that this could have > been resolved with just a bit of professional negotiation. Unfortunately that is not true. It is not possible to negotiate with people like Aldo. You can have patience with him, or you can loose your patience (like Eric did, after investing a lot of time in being patient with him and defending Aldo and the list in situations where it would have been the most likely outcome for the list to be simply closed down.) I doubt that I would have had as much patience with Aldo as Eric had. -- Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland E-mail: NB@POBOX.COM Would you like coaching in the art of thinking and decision-making? From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 15:52:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA08333 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id PAA08306 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tera.bctel.net (tera.bctel.net [204.174.64.252]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id NAA29617 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:52:38 -0700 (PDT) From: brian@ilinx.com Received: (from nobody@localhost) by tera.bctel.net (8.7.6/8.7.1) id NAA07614; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mocha.bctel.net(204.174.66.5) by tera.bctel.net via smap (V2.0) id xma007575; Thu, 18 Sep 97 13:56:47 -0700 Received: (from murrell@localhost) by mocha.bctel.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA17226; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709182056.NAA17226@mocha.bctel.net> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:56:43 -0700 (PDT) To: henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV Cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL buying up Compuserve In-Reply-To: <009BA794.9A146677.43@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3.2-970721-sol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of "Henry W. Miller" on scroll <009BA794.9A146677.43@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> > > Now, in the past, there has been a lot of bashing of AOL and > Compuserve both. I really don't want to reopen those old arguements. > But, I was wondering if anyone had a knee-jerk (or other) reaction to > how this is going to affect mail service to either or both classes of > addresses? Maybe someone from AOL and/or Compuserve can comment? Hopefully, the result will be as good as I can imagine it to be. IMHO AOL are a very responsible group with respect to their e-mail services. On the other hand, Compuserve are/were bastards. How many people here who run mailling lists have complained to them about their mailers bouncing mail back to the the mail author (From:) instead of the mail sender (From_)? How many people got an answer along the lines that that was way things were and they weren't going to change? I never did like compuserve, and am glad to see it bought out. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 15:53:45 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA01359 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id OAA01329 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id EAA14734 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id HAA11420; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA19151; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:29:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:29:34 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: "Henry W. Miller" cc: brozen@torah.org, LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Problem Unsubscribes In-Reply-To: <009BA68F.1BDA0777.7@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Henry W. Miller wrote: > That's great that you've got somebody on your side at the > Smokie office. I've had other problems with people attempting to > unsubscribe that have led to some rather interesting trickle down > manuevers. But I have to ask: didn't the individual who threatened > to sue attempt to contact ANYONE in your office first for > assiatance, or were they just being a pain in the backside? (We've > ALL had those type of subscribers, haven't we? I had one who was so > bad, we could not remember the simple instructions sent to him on > how to unsubscribe, over and over and over again, but he could > certainly fling obscene remarks at the rest of the list, until I set > up NOPOST...) This is pretty silly. Why did you send him the instructions more than once? Why did you set him to NOPOST rather than unsubscribing him? It is just as easy to remove a subscriber as it is to put them into NOPOST mode. I do have problems with folks who can not unsubscribe themselves. It is irritating that they either discard the instructions or they can not follow simple instructions. On the other hand, I don't feel compelled to punish someone for being stupid. I will also not punish the rest of my subscribers by forcing them to read several "get me outa here" posts. If someone wants out, I just remove them. There is nothing to be gained by taunting a fool. Forcing someone to learn how to remove themselves takes more time and effort than simply removing them. If you want to try and teach them the error of their ways, send them private email. - murr - From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 15:53:52 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA04672 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id PAA04597 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from su1.in.net (su1.in.net [199.0.62.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id FAA21782 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:19:48 -0700 (PDT) From: amys@amys-answers.com Received: from basement.amys-answers.com by su1.in.net with SMTP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA16458; Thu, 18 Sep 97 07:26:55 -0400 Message-Id: <9709181126.AA16458@su1.in.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: Berg , list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:29:53 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: List Owners and Site Managers In-Reply-To: <199709180338.UAA26317@eskimo.com> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Define borrowed. I run a single list devoted to roleplaying > games, which I get free with my ISP subscription. I pay for my net > access, and I doubt that a case could be made that I am not paying for the > resources my list uses (one list, ~60 subscribers). The resources needed > to run that list are negligible. I'd say you were paying SOMETHING for that list. You are providing some financial support for the resources. > If you are the editor and owner of a free newsletter, and someone > decides to donate resources to print that newsletter, who owns the > newsletter? Aldo is in the same position with his mailing list, and if it > were a free magazine or newspaper we were talking about, nobody would even > think to dispute his ownership of it. Your analogy is correct. And when I take that newsletter to be copied, I certainly make sure I have the original. I don't ask them to keep it for me. But the list ownership was never the issue. Only in Aldo's mind. Because what he "owns" is the list of email addresses and the archives. If he stores his own archives and keeps an up to date subscriber list, then he has everything that belongs to him. He could take that list and those archives and start fresh somewhere else. He was wanting a migration to another listserv site. There has to be one set up before you can do it. Apparently Aldo doesn't understand that. He was served off the SUNET listserv server because he was biting the hand that fed him. Just for grins I undertook a "subscribe" proceedure for this list. The pre "welcome" messages states this: FISH-ECOLOGY is managed by Mr. Eric Thomas [Systems Operator], EARN Services/SUNET and Aldo-Pier Solari [Listowner], PhD. cand. Fisheries ecology - U. of Lund, Sweden. Anyway, when I read the pre-welcome letter I got a much clearer picture as to why Eric got involved to the degree he did and did what he did. I think Aldo misunderstood what's involved with what he wanted to do and I think he didn't understand why Eric was doing what he was doing because he was too busy being upset. And as I stated before, there is much more to this than any of us know. amy From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 15:54:00 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA09625 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id PAA09607 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kynn@localhost) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25206; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:32:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Kynn Bartlett Message-Id: <199709222232.PAA25206@ayla.idyllmtn.com> Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please To: jennifer@remote.control.com (Jennifer Powell) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <2AD5C2DDB0C3D0118D9F00609754111A3EA43C@machine.control.com> from "Jennifer Powell" at Sep 17, 97 03:42:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Russ Allbery wrote: > Understanding this has been part of Internet etiquette for years, and is > one of the major reasons behind the maxim that on-line disputes should > not > be taken off-line unless there is absolutely no other recourse. > Could you please explain this? I don't see why one should "not" take > a dispute offline. Perhaps it depends on the type of dispute... and I > am > not sure what it has to do with the unofficial status of most lists. A lot of it has to do with the Internet's historic roots -- which may or may not apply anymore. Back in the old days, nearly everything except pure, unadulterated, defense-department-or-similarly-approved official research was considered "unofficial" -- the Powers That Be looked the other way on things like mailing lists, usenet groups, and the like, because the big expensive computers weren't REALLY bought by technical universities to let their students read Star Trek fan fiction, debate feminist philosophies, or play on muds. Such things were allowed to continue, though, because nobody really cared as long as the machines were doing what they were supposed to do, and most of the people who kept the Internet running also enjoyed and approved of these "unofficial" uses. In such an environment, you could cause a lot of damage to someone's reputation or even an Internet service itself by simply sending a nasty letter (or having your lawyer send one) to a user's or sysadmin's boss. Back in those days, the Internet was understood by management even less than it is now (had YOU heard of the net back in, say, 1987?), and getting a letter from a lawyer because one of your school's sysadmins had apparently distributed something on a "star trek newsgroup" (whatever that might be) using your school computers was enough to start the various manager types thinking "why the HELL are we using our computer resources for star trek talk and sex talk and...?" Sure, there were plenty of administration types who saw the value of the Net -- and thus it was able to grow into the bloated mon- strosity it is today. But for a long time, many parts of the net were still the administrative equivalent of a house of cards -- and if your boss or uberboss got a complaint, the service would be yanked. (For a more recent example, a couple years ago cat yronwode got a mail-to-Usenet gateway closed down, because the volunteer administrator didn't want to deal with her threatening to have his job and report him to the media for abusing public funds, all because he put AOL.com on the "reject" list for his gateway.) --Kynn not really an Internet old timer (1986), just feel like one From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 15:54:08 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA09956 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id PAA08394 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.bsdi.com (austin.BSDI.COM [205.230.232.49]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id QAA04149 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.bsdi.com ({SIoN6GSHdJXXWsy7ErGnPgjapKWf+FGc}@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by austin.bsdi.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA09041 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:04:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709190004.SAA09041@austin.bsdi.com> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: multiple list relay setup From: Tony Sanders Organization: Berkeley Software Design, Inc. Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:04:34 -0600 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Short version: Very busy mailing list, want to go to multiple relay machines. Looking for comments (private email and I will summerize back to the list) on tuning setup. Pointers to exiting information would be most helpful, haven't been able to find anything (willing to write it up and put it on my web site). Background: Hi, I'm new to this list but not new to running mailing lists. I have been running several mail lists for some years now using list software that I wrote myself. My biggest list is the inet-access mailing list which has ~2000 subscribers and generates 150 messages on an average day and 300 whenever someone posts they have a better ISP than someone else :-) I'm currently making all these deliveries from a single machine (P150 128M memory, BSD/OS, T1 connection, 300K-600K deliveries per day; custom list processing software, sendmail MTA). My current Time To Deliver 90% (TTD90%) is about 10 minutes. I achieve this by splitting the message into chunks of 100 recipients each (I can split more but then you have other problems) and I sort the recipient based on statistics gathered from sendmail's maillog (delay and xdelay) using ``mailprio'' (I wrote mailprio but it is also in the contrib directory of the sendmail distribution). I also have tools designed to improve the performance of running the sendmail queue (ftp://ftp.earth.com/pub/postmaster/ if you're interested in some of them). The Problem: I'm starting to run out of horse power on the single machine to deliver that load (I've been told by many that it's amazing to do as well as I am -- I peak at about 110K deliveries per hour when I can get a flat sendmail load going with about 140 processes). I have brought another machine up to act as a second relay. My plan is to set DNS like so: relay.isp.earth.com MX 10 relay1.foo.bar. MX 10 relay2.foo.bar. And then pass the recipient list directly to N sendmails passing them a configuration file with SMART_RELAY setup to this DNS entry -- the MX'es round robin so the sendmail's basically split up the load (with automatic fail-over). Is anyone running with such a configuration (or similar enough that they believe it will work ok)? I'm also looking for resources on how to tune sendmail and your list processing software (generically) to run maximum load mailing lists. If such a document doesn't exist I'm willing to write one and start collecting this information (I've done quite a bit myself and but there is always more to be learned! :-). For example, I recently found that sendmail's canonicalization is killing me for startup time. What are the repercussions of disabling canonicalization on my relay machines (since the addresses haven't already been canonicalized)? Another problem is that when sendmail hits QueueLA it that doesn't stop it from continuing to start up more sendmail's where canonicalization can take a lot of time and resources. I've put in a request to Eric Allman to add DeferLA between QueueLA and RefuseLA which he thought sounded good (might be in the next version). Private replies to would be great and I will summerize my findings back to the list. Thank you. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 16:03:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA04220 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id OAA04212 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id XAA27085 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709180609.XAA27085@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <7.D20B7571@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 8:17:51 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 6206; Thu, 18 Sep 97 08:17:10 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 9653; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:17:10 +0200 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:48:44 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: List Owners and Site Managers[via LSMTP - see www.lsoft.com] To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:38:40 -0700 (PDT) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Berg said: > Define borrowed. I run a single list devoted to roleplaying >games, which I get free with my ISP subscription. Well, then you're paying for it and it's a totally different situation. > If you are the editor and owner of a free newsletter, and >someone decides to donate resources to print that newsletter, who owns >the newsletter? Define "own" and define "newsletter"... Who owns the name? Well, that's a standard trademark issue and the probable answer is that nobody does because it wasn't used in trade. Who owns the articles? This would depend on the contractual agreement (if any) between the editor and "journalists", and the answer doesn't depend on who owns the press. Who owns the "unsold" back issues? Maybe the printer, maybe the editor, depending on their agreement. I think the real question is whether the editor can continue his newsletter using another printer, and whether the printer can find a new editor willing to coordinate a newsletter on the same general topic and with the same name. In both cases the answer would seem to be yes. The only real issue here is who owns the name, because that's all there is to own really (other than back issues). You can't own the journalists, and they're free to work for whatever editor/printer they want. Anyone is free to publish a newsletter on anything. Names are normally protected by trademark law, which requires trade, and there might be special laws for the press that I am not aware of, but this seems to be the only issue. Beyond this larger issue, there may be all sorts of little unsavoury details based on the specifics of the situation. For instance, the editor might have a diary with a list of all his journalists and how much he was paying them, and this diary might have been in an office the printer was lending him, and maybe the printer made a copy, and maybe you can't prove it because you can read back issues and see the names of the journalists, etc. In the end, the journalists are all grown ups and they are free to accept or refuse work for the new editor, get upset at having been contacted, etc. But in a free society all these steps (hiring the editor, contacting the journalists, printing a new newsletter) are constitutionally protected. And while it is the journalists' skills that make for a good newsletter, the only thing you can really own is the trademark on the name. To take a concrete example, consider the typical case where an internal employee newsletter is developed by a team of volunteer employees, and the employer supplies a free press but does not author or endorse the articles. Joe Doe, layout assistant, is the editor in his spare time. Then Joe quits. What do you think happens? 1. A new editor is appointed to continue the newsletter. 2. There will never again be a newsletter, at least not with the same name, since Joe clearly owned it! Or take a club for instance. Clubs have newsletters and presses (or they pay for the printing costs, which is the same) and they appoint editors all the time. When someone leaves the club, another editor is appointed and the newsletter goes on. This looks awfully like the editor didn't own squat. Eric From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 16:12:55 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA01527 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id OAA01491 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (cvobku.cvo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.189.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id FAA20478 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (MX G5.0) id 37; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:26:43 -1300 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:26:43 -1300 From: "Henry W. Miller" To: murr@vnet.net CC: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV Message-ID: <009BA6B2.BF362B53.37@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Subject: RE: Problem Unsubscribes Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"murr@vnet.net" "murr rhame" 17-SEP-1997 04:53:34.07 > To: MX%"henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV" > CC: MX%"brozen@torah.org",MX%"LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM" > Subj: Problem Unsubscribes > On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:29:34 -0400 (EDT), murr rhame said: murr rhame writes: Murr, > On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Henry W. Miller wrote: > > > That's great that you've got somebody on your side at the > > Smokie office. I've had other problems with people attempting to > > unsubscribe that have led to some rather interesting trickle down > > manuevers. But I have to ask: didn't the individual who threatened > > to sue attempt to contact ANYONE in your office first for > > assiatance, or were they just being a pain in the backside? (We've > > ALL had those type of subscribers, haven't we? I had one who was so > > bad, we could not remember the simple instructions sent to him on > > how to unsubscribe, over and over and over again, but he could > > certainly fling obscene remarks at the rest of the list, until I set > > up NOPOST...) > > This is pretty silly. Why did you send him the instructions more than > once? Why did you set him to NOPOST rather than unsubscribing him? > It is just as easy to remove a subscriber as it is to put them into > NOPOST mode. I do have problems with folks who can not unsubscribe > themselves. It is irritating that they either discard the > instructions or they can not follow simple instructions. > This is true, but I kind of shortened the story a bit. It was really one of those situations where "you had to be there". He'd fire off 2-3 SUBSCRIBE messages to the list. I'd send him back the correct instructions. He'd say "OK, Thanks", and proceed to do the same thing. I'd send the instructions again, and add at the top, "Please read and follow the instructions". I'd get back another "OK, Thanks, sorry" message. Probably at this point I should have pulled the plug manually. I didn't. This instructions are written at about a fifth grade level. (Come to think of it, that's about how hold he acted...) Anyway, I had gotten to the point of dealing with problem people like this by not being beaten by them. If I have to start unsubscribing someone because that are too lazy to follow one simple instuction, than I am setting myself up for a dangerous precendent, and I am not going to be allowed to be sucked into that time trap again. OK, so things appear to have calmed down for the evening. The next morning, I am deluged. He started responding to every message on the list in an obscene manner, including sending many "FOAD" messages (ask me in private if you don't know what it stands for...) to one of the other list administrators, and also messages that could be considered threatening to another list member. THAT's when I set him NOPOST, to give him a little taste of his own medicine. Later that day, after calming down and reporting the problem to his system administrator, I did finally remove him, but left his address blocked. I do believe that he did try to resubscribe himself once. Obviously now that I look at the entire situation in retrospect, it was probably a youngster out trolling for fun. As to why I sent out the instructions more than once: even though they are very simple, a small segment of the population can't seem to follow them correctly. Sometimes a gentle nudge will correct them, make them see something that they didn't see the first time. > On the other hand, I don't feel compelled to punish someone for being > stupid. I will also not punish the rest of my subscribers by forcing > them to read several "get me outa here" posts. If someone wants out, > I just remove them. There is nothing to be gained by taunting a fool. > Forcing someone to learn how to remove themselves takes more time and > effort than simply removing them. If you want to try and teach them > the error of their ways, send them private email. > I realize that some people have problems not of their own doing attempting to leave a list. If they have a problem AFTER attempting the automatic unsubscribe, then I will remove them. But the entire reason for list software is so that we don't have to do this manually. We are providing time and resources, both of which can be scarce. I'm not going to be goaded back into doing everything manually because a small percentage of the population can't behave. It only takes a few seconds to send them the instuctions again; it can take a couple of minutes to remove the member manually. In this case, private email was attempted, and I thought that it had worked, I was obviously mistaken. Again, looking back, this was a unique set of circumstances. Usually, sending the instructions once, works. > > - murr - > -HWM From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 16:19:34 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA09976 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id PAA08344 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (h153-64-252-2.NCR.COM [153.64.252.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id OAA04707 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bill-houle (bill-houle.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM [153.64.69.200]) by ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11610; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970918142654.0097ec20@www.sandiegoca.ncr.com> X-Sender: bhoule@www.sandiegoca.ncr.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:34:31 -0700 To: JoeDysart@aol.com From: Bill Houle Subject: Re: Authenticity of mailing list software article research Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:04 PM 9/18/97 -0400, you wrote: >Regarding Kynn Bartlett's post that follows: > > Kynn -- If you do a Lexis-Nexis search for my byline, you'll find that >my work has appeared in more than 40 publications, including "The >New York Times," and that I've been a journalist for 17 years. Joe- Credentials aside, do you not agree that your questions are remarkably leading and potentially biased towards the one Revnet product? The fact that you are well published and legitimately writing an article is possibly even worse than if you were a disguised marketer as Kynn suggests. You appear to be heading toward an "unbiased" article with a favorite already in-hand. Personally, I was intrigued (to the point of almost responding) by your initial "mailing list effectiveness" questions, but became very skeptical as I continued on to read your product line of questioning. If the focus of your article will be GroupMaster, then please say so up front. If not, then change the questionnaire to use a more generic approach and I'm sure you will get better response from the groups. There are several other equally-capable listserver products missing from your list that you would be remiss in not covering. MAILING LIST EFFECTIVENESS Do you use mailing lists? What was the goal? Have they been effective? etc LIST SERVER PRODUCTS What product do you use? Did you evaluate others? Which ones? What factors influenced your decision? Has it proven effective? Has it been easy or difficult to administer? Why? Have users found it easy or difficult to use? Why? What do you like about it? What do you not like? What do you wish it did differently? Have you considered switching to another product? --bill >Why does this entire "research" poll read like marketing >research for the "Groupmaster" product, something I've >never heard of before this? > >At 09:48 p.m. 09/17/97 -0400, JoeDysart@aol.com wrote: >>*Which of these programs do you feel is best suited for use by a Web content >>publisher who is looking to add mailing list capability to a Web site, but >is >>not well versed in computer-programming or at the system administrator >level: >> 1) AltaVista Internet >> 2) Groupmaster >> 3) listserve >> 4) lyris >> 5) majordomo > >Examples: >>*Do you feel listserv's command-line interface could be intimidating to the >>novice user -- someone who is not a system >>administrator or computer programmer? Why or why not? > >Isn't this a real leading question? > >>*Do you feel that lyris requires users to possess a thorough understanding >of >>PERL? Why or why not? > >Isn't this a real leading question? > >>*Do you feel majordomo requires users to possess a thorough understanding of >>PERL? Why or why not? > >Isn't this a real leading question? > >>*Do you feel majordomo can be buggy when attempting to archive, digest and >>configure moderated mailing lists. Why or why not? > >Isn't this a real leading question? > >>================================== >>QUESTIONS FOR GROUPMASTER USERS >>================================== > >Isn't it interesting how one particular product gets its own >"section"? > >>-Do you feel Revnet Systems detailed reporting feature is a big selling >point >>for the software? > >Isn't this merely an ad? > >>Users of Listserve have indicated that the program is powerful, but >difficult >>to use. >> -What features does Listserve have which cannot be found in >> Groupmaster? >> -What do you feel makes Listserve difficult to use? > >Isn't this merely an ad? > >>The same comment has been made of Lyris and Majordomo -- the programs are >>powerful, but difficult to use. >> -Again: What features do Lyris and Majordomo have which cannot be >>found in Groupmaster? >> -What makes Lyris and Majordomo difficult to use? > >Isn't this merely an ad? > >>*Have you taken advantage of the software's ability to deliver Web pages and >>PowerPoint presentations? If so, what kind of content was incorporated into >>that multimedia mail, and what company goals were you trying to achieve by >>sending that mail? > >Isn't this merely an ad? > >>THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR RESPONSES! --J.D. >>(END OF EMAIL TRANSMISSION) > >No offense, but I find you to be about as phoney as a three >dollar bill. (For those of you not in the US, they don't >make $3 bills.) > >Please take your lame advertising pitch thinly veiled as >"research" elsewhere. > > >-- > /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com > / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet > / \ //\ /\ \ / \ >'_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Virtual Dog Show is open! www.dogshow.com > > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 16:24:58 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA03976 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id OAA03939 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id SAA02788 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709180114.SAA02788@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <14.8BE4EA7E@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 3:22:24 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 5179; Thu, 18 Sep 97 03:21:42 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 7561; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 03:21:42 +0200 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:58:35 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: List Owners and Site Managers To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:07:21 -0500 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One thing which really surprised me in this debate is that some people expressed (both on the list and in private) a very strong opinion that the list owner always owns the list, period, no matter how much time or money the host site may have put in that. This in spite of the fact that, very often, the site manager is also a volunteer and does contribute personal time to the success of the list, in addition to hardware and connectivity. Perhaps I am biased because I have always been a site manager, but in a situation where I call the shots personally (as opposed to having certain rules to follow), I would give this kind of list owner the boot on the spot. To illustrate, I received and answered 1,022 messages from a particular list owner over the last 3 years, plus all the messages I did not save (I tend not to save trivial requests that I know I will never need to refer to in the future). These messages usually requested some form of concrete action or troubleshooting (mostly the latter - mail problems or delays experienced by subscriber such and such, which usually were a problem with the user's mail system). I don't really want to hazard a guess as to average processing time, but we are definitely not talking about "1-2 minutes just to read the message". I was paid for this work, but if I had provided this time on a volunteer basis you can rest assured that I would be upset if the list owner suddenly started claiming full 100% credit for the success of the list in question, like my efforts did not count. This is just not the way I was brought up. Likewise, if I ran a mailing list comprised of the top 100 astronomers in the world, I would not presume to take all the credit for its success. This does not mean I would not take *some* credit (my idea, my skillful operation of the technical aspects, etc), but it would seem self-evident that the scientific competence of the participants, not to mention years of research and expensive equipment used for such research and so on, were the reason for the success of the list. But, obviously, some people believe that the list owner owns all aspects of the list, unconditionally. I have found that putting hard beliefs in the context of an extreme situation oftens sheds a new light upon them, so let's try a hypothetical case, which I realize is unlikely to ever happen, but this is the whole point. Let's say that Joe started a mailing list from scratch at the university of XYZ, using resources and manpower exclusively owned by the university. Under the theory (or belief) that we are researching, Joe owns the list unconditionally, no matter how much money and efforts the university has put into it. The list did very well, and 5 years later Joe is offered a million dollars for the list, and sells it. Is Joe allowed to do this? If he really owns the list unconditionally, he should be able to do with it as he pleases, including selling it. Joe sells the list, and the university demands payment for the expenses that it incurred over the 5 years in question. The university feels that this is only right, since Joe just made a big pile of money thanks, to a large part, to services the university provided for free. The university feels that Joe needs to "buy himself free" from their participation by paying for actual costs. Joe refuses. Who is right? The subscribers get upset and demand some kind of compensation. Some have contributed years of research to the list. Joe contributed a few hundred hours of supervisory time and back patting, but no actual research. The subscribers feel that they have been cheated - that their work has been sold and they didn't get a cent for it. Who is right? A few weeks later, it turns out that Joe sold the list to a spam company, which is going to use it to send a bunch of spam to the subscribers. It also turns out that Joe knew about this, but didn't care; heck, it was a million dollars, for this price he would have done just about anything! Does this change the ruling? If so, why? These questions do not create any kind of "conscience problem" for me. I don't think that Joe owns the list, so I don't think Joe can sell it (although if it is sold after a collective decision, I do feel Joe should get his share). I think the list is collectively owned by a number of people, including Joe, the host site, and the participants, based on everyone's respective contribution (I am not talking about legal ownership here, which is another issue entirely and probably sides almost completely with the host site). I would find it almost impossible to assign exact weights to the various individuals and organizations involved, but clearly, I would not think Joe is in a position to sell or otherwise terminate the list without consulting with its membership. I think the host site has some intrinsic rights in this partnership, due to the nature of its contribution. For instance, the host site can decide to terminate the list if, for whatever reason, it no longer wishes to donate the resources. The laws also place certain responsibilities and burdens on the host site, and the host site has the right to take steps to protect itself accordingly. For instance, if pirated software is being distributed on the list, the host site is legally liable and has the right to take all necessary steps to prevent this, even if the membership disagrees completely ;-) Generally speaking, the host site has the right to ensure that the list does not become an unreasonable burden on its limited resources. This includes setting a number of rules such as maximum number of postings per day, maximum amount of space for archives, clear signoff instructions in welcome messages whether you like it or not, etc. This may, in extreme cases, include giving the list owner the boot. For instance, I had a list owner who kept adding people to the list against their will, and locked the list to prevent them from signing off. This led to a lot of trouble, legal threats, etc. I told her to stop doing that or I would appoint someone else, and she stopped. Terminating the list was not an option as it was required for internal use, the only issue was who would run it. She was not a bad person, she just thought the things she was doing were so intrinsically interesting that everyone should be required to read them. Because the list owner's sole contribution is (usually) his time, the list owner's special rights are limited to keeping this time in check. This ranges from requiring cookie confirmation on subscriptions (to weed out bad addresses) to stepping down as list owner if things just get out of hand. The list owner has the right to say "Maybe doing X would make life easier for the users, but it would take me more time, so we will not do it". The list owner also has the right to look for a new host. Heck, anyone has the right to look for a new host and start a new list. The expression "looking for a new host" actually says a lot. You seldom see postings in which a host is "looking for a list owner" to host a list on a particular topic, whereas there are dozens of requests for hosts every week. The hosts tend to have the upper hand for the simple reason that there are a lot more willing owners than willing hosts. Likewise, hosts and owners have different "value" to the other party. List owners strive to find a "good host" (one that is reliable and has fast hardware and connectivity, etc) and, once they have found it, they usually do their best to stay there, because a "good host" is valuable to them. Hosts tend to select lists based on their topic rather than owner (although "black sheep" owners may be avoided like the plague and great owners will be preferred, aside from these extremes the owner will not affect the decision much). While the owner looks for a host, the host looks for a list - not for an owner. These "market" considerations give the host a certain de facto advantage. The subscribers are often forgotten in this equation. The whole system is optimized so that the host never has to deal with the subscribers, and vice-versa. In a way, the list owner is the subscribers' "ambassador" and represents their interests to the host (when asking for more disk space, etc). And this works very well as long as the loyalty of the list owner to the subscribers is not disputed. When that happens, however, everything breaks loose. I have often had to "solve conflicts" between list owners or between list owners and subscribers, and quite frankly, I have always resented it. When this happens too often, the system breaks and the list is endangered: the host is getting tired of all this extra time going down the drain, most users have no interest in the quarrels, and the list owners tend to be so busy waging their disputes that they forget that the list is not theirs to begin with (again, this is my opinion). The host is torn between the burning desire to end the debate one way or the other and not have to put up with all these time-wasting arguments, and (sometimes) the desire not to punish the subscribers for the actions of a very small minority. Eric From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 16:31:45 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA08624 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id PAA08608 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from logjam.ucc.nau.edu (mailgate.nau.edu [134.114.96.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id XAA21586 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Disposition-notification-to: moderate@star.ucc.nau.edu Received: from [10.0.2.15] (star.ucc.nau.edu) by NAUVAX.UCC.NAU.EDU (PMDF V5.1-6 #18805) with ESMTP id <01INT21E6RYE90UD6G@NAUVAX.UCC.NAU.EDU> for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:08:05 MST Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:47:38 -0700 From: mauri p collins Subject: Collins/Berge Survey of List Moderators X-Sender: moderate@star.ucc.nau.edu (Unverified) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear List Moderator: Some time ago you indicated your willingness to participate in research on the roles of discussion list moderators. Dr. Zane Berge, UMBC, and I have been interested in list moderation and the activities of list moderators for several years and have developed a resource page for those interested in this topic at http://star.ucc.nau.edu/~mauri/moderators.html We have both moderated lists and would like to extend our understanding of the different roles and activitiesof discussion group moderators by asking you to complete the following survey. This is also a pilot for my proposed dissertation research. The results of this survey will be reported at AECT in St. Louis in March and be placed on the Moderator's HomePage at http://star.ucc.nau.edu/~mauri/moderate.html Please feel free to add any additional comments as you go through the survey. We realize this survey is detailed and may take about 30 minutes to complete. Your responses will be combined with those of all other respondents and your comments will not be quoted with attribution without your permis The population ofdiscussion list moderators is still quite small and we would like to collect as much information as possible. If you know other discussion group moderators, please feel free to pass this survey along. Your responses will be combined with those of all other respondents and your comments will not be quoted with attribution without your permission. Please return this survey to before October 1, 1997 to moderate@star.ucc.nau.edu Thank you for your willingness to participate. Mauri Collins, MA -----------------------------------snip here--------------------------------- DEFINITIONS: For the purposes of this research, we are making a distinction among the following roles: list owner, list monitor and list moderator. A "list owner" is used as a "technical term" to refer to the individual who is responsible for the technical management of the list (taking care of bounces, setting mail and nomail, changing addresses etc.), and may be responsible to the host organization for the conduct of the list. A list owner may or may not participate in the day-to-day activities of the discussion group. A "list monitor" may also perform the duties of a list owner, but also participates in the day-to-day activities of the list, interjecting comments that may serve to regulate the course of list discussion. A "list moderator" may also perform the duties of a listowner and be a 'list monitor', but also receives and "approves" messages, prior to distribution. A list of moderator roles are included below. "Signal-to-noise ratio" is a term from ham radio refering to the balance necessary between the clarity of the incoming signal and the ambient static and/or atmospheric interfearance. ************************** Please check ALL of the following that apply to your situation: 1a. ___ I no longer own or moderate an online discussion group and do not wish to participate in this research. [Please return this survey and we will delete your name from our list] 1b. ___ I am a list owner and do not moderate or facilitate discussion on the list(s) that I own and do not wish to participate in this research. [Please return this survey and we will delete your name from our list] 1c. ___ My list is for distribution only and involves no discussion. [Please return this survey and we will delete your name from our list] 1d. ___ I no longer moderate an online list, but will participate in this research, based on my prior experience with __________________ list. 1e. ___ I moderate only one list and my responses reflect my experience with _______________ list. 1f. ___ I do [or have] moderate[d] more than one list. My responses here reflect my experience with ____________________ list. 1g. ___ I do [or have] moderate[d] more than one list. I will complete a separate survey for one or more of the discussion groups I do [or have] moderate[d]. 1h. ___ I do [or have] moderate[d] more than one list. My responses here reflect a synthesis of my experiences with all the lists I do [or have] moderate[d]. 1i. ___ I co-moderate ________________ and will respond based on that experience. 1j. Other (please describe) LIST DESCRIPTION Our questions about the list you moderate are designed to put your responses in a context. 2a. Name of list described in this survey _______________ 2b. How long has this list existed? 2c. How long have you owned/monitored/moderated this list? 2d. Brief description of this list, including its topic or focus: 3. Is membership in your list closed or open to anyone who wants to join? 1. ___ Closed 2. ___ Open 4a. Is your list associated with an educational course? 1. ___ Yes 2. ___ No 4b. If so, is participation required? 1. ___ Yes 2. ___ No 5. Is your list of 1. ___ fixed or 2. ___ indeterminate duration? 6a. What was the original focus of your discussion list? 6b. Has the focus of your discussion list changed? 1. ___ Yes 2. ___ No 6c. If YES, in what way has it changed? 7. Which of the following describe your discussion list? (please check all that apply) a __ Information Distribution b __ Forum for Professional development c __ A Newsletter d __ A Political Action Group e __ For Questions and answers f __ Technical support forum g __ A personal Support group h __ A ciscussion forum i __ For communication in a course j __ For problem-solving k.__ A scholarly journal l. __ Other, please describe: 8. What is the average number of posts to your list (please fill in one of the following that makes the most sense for your list): ___ 1. per day? or ___ 2. per week? or ___ 3. per month? 9a. Is traffic on your list constant or are there lulls in the conversation? 9b. If there are lulls, to what do you attribute them? 9c. If there are lulls, what, if anything, do you do about it? LIST POLICIES In the following a "formal policy" is one that exists somewhere in text or writing, may or may not have been approved by list membership, ownership or representatives of the hosting agency but is available to the list membership. 10a. Is there an formal editorial policy or charter for your list? 10b. Do you have a formal policy regarding advertisements posted to your list? 10c. Do you have a formal policy statement about appropriate list behavior? 10d. If yes to any of the above, could you please send us or attach a copy, or list the URL here? 10e. How do new list members find out about list policies? 10f. If you have a formal policy, in what way has it helped or hindered your moderating/monitoring? 10g. If there are no formal list policies, what informal criteria do you use to determine the appropriateness of posts to your list? 11. Do breaches of appropriate behavior and/or flames occur on your list? 12a Is this a ___ 1. frequent or ___ 2. infreqent occurance? ___ 3. They never happen 12b. How do you deal with inappropriate list behavior? MODERATOR ROLES We make the following distinction between moderated, monitored and unmoderated lists. A Moderated list is one in which one or more persons are responsible for reviewing and/or editing all posts before they are distributed. A Monitored list is one in which posts are distributed directly to the list and one or more persons are responsible for monitoring the discussion, for breaches of list etiquette or policy, after the fact; An Unmoderated list as one that has an "owner" but all messages posted to the list are distributed directly to the subscribers. Subscribers to an unmoderated list may or may not police their own communication behaviors in accordance with accepted netiquette. One or more of the list subscribers may informally assume the role of "monitor" or discussion moderator. 12. Which best describes your list? 1. ___ Moderated 2. ___ Monitored 3. ___ Unmoderated 4. ___ Other, please explain: MODERATOR ROLES The following is a list of online discussion moderators roles, derived from the literature and our previous research: 13. Which of the following describes the roles you most often fill? (Please check all that apply) Role Example of activities a. ___ FACILITATOR peer discussion participant, mediator b. ___ MANAGER administrator, archivist, deleting/adding subscribers, dealing with bounced messages c. ___ FILTER deciding upon on-topic posts; increasing signal/noise ratio; rejects libelous posts; may reject jokes d. ___ EXPERT compiling or answering Frequently Asked Questions; expert in the list's topic e. ___ EDITOR text editor, digest posts, formats posts, may correct spelling, grammar f. ___ DISCUSSION LEADER poses questions or otherwise promotes discussion, keeps discussion "on track"; g. ___ MARKETER promotes/explains list to potential subscribers h. ___ HELPER helps people with needs in the list's focus area -- more general than expert I. ___ FIREFIGHTER douses or rejects "flames" or protests ad hominem attacks 14a. Do the above categories cover most or all of your activities? 1. ___ Yes 2. ___ No 14b. Are there other roles that you fill that are not included in the above list? 1. ___ Yes 2. ___ No 14c. If yes, please describe: MODERATING LISTS 15a. Do you think discussion groups, as a rule, should be moderated? 1. ___ Yes 2. ___ It depends 3. ___ No 15b. If YES, please check all of the following reasons that apply: a. ___ to keep the signal-to-noise ratio high b. ___ to keep out flames c. ___ to keep discussion focused d. ___ to increase discussion quality e. ___ timely posting of information, agendas, working papers f. ___ legal issues, e.g. copyright issues, trade secrets g. ___ to compile digests, edit messages h. ___ other, please describe: 15c. If "It Depends", on what should it depend? 15d. If NO, check all of the following reasons that apply: a. ___ the list belongs to the members, and they are self- regulating b. ___ it abridges freedom of speech c. ___ it takes a lot of time and energy d. ___ the membership resent being censored e. ___ it slows message distribution down, slows conversation f. ___ other, please describe LIST MEMBERSHIP 16. What is the age distribution of this list's active contributors? 17. What is the gender distribution of this list's active contributors? 18a. Which of the following reasons for belonging to a list do you think apply to your list members? (Please check all that apply) ___ a. to get information valuable to them ___ b. to share information with others ___ c. to ask questions ___ d. to get answers to questions ___ e. to respond to others' questions ___ f. to learn about the list topic ___ g. to get help solving problems ___ h. for feelings of community or belonging ___ i. to increase their feelings of self-worth ___ j. to express themselves and their feelings ___ k. to exchange thoughts, ideas and opinions ___ l. to exchange experiences and stories with others ___ m. for personal networking and making contacts ___ n. for professional networking and making business contacts ___ o. to stay updated in their field ___ p. to find peers, interested in the same topic ___ q. to find a mentor ___ r. to advertise or sell products ___ s. to find a job ___ t. because they share my views on the list topic ___ u. other (please describe) 18b. On what do you base your answers to 18a? LISTS AS COMMUNITIES 19. How important do you think it is for list members to consider themselves as part of a community within which it is safe to share their thoughts, opinions and feelings? Not at all 1 2 3 4 5 Extremely important 19a. Do you think of the subscribers to your list as such a community? ___ 1. Yes ___ 2. No ___ 3. Other (please explain) 19b. Please list and describe what, if any, steps you have taken to promote this sense among your participants: 19c. Do you believe your list members consider themselves as part of such a community? 19d. What indicators support your belief? DEMOGRAPHICS 20. How long have you been moderating discussion groups? ___ 1. <3 months ___ 2. 3-6 months ___ 3. 6 months - 1 year ___ 4. 1-3 years ___ 5. >3 years 21a. How often to do you attend to your list as a moderator? ___ 1. weekly ___ 2. Several times a week ___3. daily ___ 4. several times a day ___ 5. only as needed (please explain) 21b Approximately how long does moderating your list take per session? ___ 1. <30 minutes ___ 2. 30-6O minutes ___ 3. 1-2 hours ___ 4. >2 hours ___ 5. Depends on the traffic 21c. If moderating is a frequent activity (daily, several times a week) What provision do you make for "time off" (vacations, travel)? ___ 1. I don't take time off ___ 2. I arrange to access my list frow wherever I am ___ 3. I am one of several moderators, another takes over ___ 4. I have several "back-up" moderators who will list-sit ___ 5. I tell subscribers I will be gone and not to expect mail ___ 6. I set the list to run unmoderated while I am gone ___ 7. Other, please explain 22. How did you get started moderating an online discussion group? ___ 1 Asked to by _____________________ ___ 2. Started my own online discussion group ___ 3. Volunteered when prior list moderator left ___ 4. Volunteered when list became moderated ___ 5. It is/became part of my job ___ 6. Other (please explain) 23. How did you learn to moderate online discussion groups (check all that apply)? ___ 1. Observing others ___ 2. Another moderator taught/mentored me ___ 3. Just jumped into it ___ 4. Read about it (e.g. in LISTSERV docs) ___ 5. Formal training as a discussion leader/facilitator (please describe): ___ 6. Other (please explain) 24. How does moderating a discussion group fit in with the rest of your life? ___ 1. It's part of my work ___ 2. It is a recreation/hobby ___ 3. It's both work and recreation ___ 4. Not part of my formal work, but it helps ___ 5. Leisure activity done at work ___ 6. Other (please describe) 25. Status (check all that apply): ___ 1. Student ___ 2. Staff ___ 3. Faculty ___ 4. Administration ___ 5. Management ___ 6. Retired ___ 7. Other: 26. Do you work in: ___ 1. Academia ___ 2. Business ___ 3. Industry ___ 4. Government ___ 5. Military ___ 6. Non-profit org. ___ 7. Self-employed ___ 8. Other: The male/female ratio of Internet users appears to be changing, with more women coming on-line, so we are asking: 27. Are you ___ 1. Female? ____ 2. Male? The Internet is perceived as being a place for young people, but our prior research indicates the highest proportion of users are between 30 and 50 so we are asking: 28. Your Age: _____ REFLECTION 29a. What do you enjoy most or find most rewarding about what you do? 29b. What do you find most difficult or challenging? 29c. What do you feel your list members appreciate most about what you do? 29d. Do you consider yourself a/the leader among your membership or a peer to list members? 29e. How do you deal with someone who attempts to monopolize the conversation or force their views on the list? 29f. What strategies do you use to re-direct discussion if/when it strays from the list topic/focus? 29g. How would/do you react to charges of censorship from list members? THE MODERATOR'S HOMEPAGE 30a. Have you visited the Moderator's HomePage? http://star.ucc.nau.edu/~mauri/moderators.html ___ 1. Yes ___ 2. No ___ 3. Didn't know about it 30b. If yes, were the resources there of value to you? 30c. Do you have any nominations for addition to the Moderators HomePage? 31. Would you be willing to participate in follow-up research on this topic? ___ 1. Yes ___ 2. No 32. Any Additional Comments: Thank you for your participation. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Sep 22 16:44:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA01683 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id OAA01662 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id FAA21638 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sky.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id FAA10296; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sky (ip26.kc.sky.net [206.230.165.26]) by sky.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA21201 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:28:12 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970917072957.01194ff8@solar.sky.net> X-Sender: price@solar.sky.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:29:57 -0500 To: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Allen Rice Subject: RE: Threatening to sue In-Reply-To: <009BA68F.1BDA0777.7@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 01:11 AM 9/17/97 -1300, the following was submitted for consideration by Henry W. Miller: > That's great that you've got somebody on your side at the Smokie >office. I've had other problems with people attempting to unsubscribe >that have led to some rather interesting trickle down manuevers. Interesting that you say that. This week I had a subscriber decide that he wanted off my joke list. Well, I have my list set up to reply to owner-listname since its moderated. So I get the typical "please remove me from your list" message at the owner address. I sent him the generic "wrong address bucko" message which contained the correct commands and address he needs. His reply quoted the whole mess back to me with the message "please remove me from your list NOW" Well, that just served to toque me off. I gave you the instructions and you didn't follow them. Well, here, one more time. I replied with the generic instructions again and we traded this stuff back and forth with several variations on his part of telling me he wants off the list. Then, after about a half dozen of these I look him up in my user list and discover he's on digest. So I skip the generic message and write him a personal message telling him he's on the digest, here's the commad, here's the address. Try it again. The funny part is tht the generic message I have been sending starts out with "This is an automatic reply to an attempt you have made to send a command to the list server. The message you sent has been sent to the wrong address." Yesterday this boof's ISP sent me a message telling me that the autoresponder for the list is "not configured correctly". I finally broke down and unsubbed him manually. Yes, I know I could have just unsubbed him manually to begin with and be done with it, but I feel that as a list owner we should do what we can to educate our patrons with the proper methods, and allowing them to just send a command to any address in any format they want is not doing that. When people complain that they can not get off the list for some reason, I always shoot the address back at them with the correct commands with "try it again" and that almost always works. I have never had a configuration problem to deal with. Those times it didn't work were when t hey were unsubbing the wrong address or mode. In this case, I decided that the guy was just to dumb to get off the list on his own, and his ISP was even dumber. Paul ------------------------------------------------------------ (o)(o) Paul Rice > Listowner: CircleJoke and Underground Mailling Lists \/ mailto:PaulRice@Broadcast.net ------------------------------------------------------------ "We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." --Robert Wilensky, University of California ------------------------------------------------------------ Support the anti-Spam amendment, go to http://www.cauce.org From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 25 11:54:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA15069 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id QAA15059 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id RAA25954 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA10858 ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:20:44 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970917072957.01194ff8@solar.sky.net> References: <009BA68F.1BDA0777.7@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:20:20 -0700 To: Paul Allen Rice , LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: RE: Threatening to sue Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:29 AM -0700 9/17/97, Paul Allen Rice wrote: >His reply quoted the whole mess back to me with the >message "please remove me from your list NOW" Well, that just served to >toque me off. I gave you the instructions and you didn't follow them. And at this point, that's where I generally start Cc:ing his postmaster. That works wonders in many cases. >Yesterday this boof's ISP sent me a message telling me >that the autoresponder for the list is "not configured correctly". Ask for details (grin). -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 25 11:55:45 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA15101 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id QAA15085 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [199.125.85.28]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id WAA12862 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA22489; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:12:41 -0400 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:12:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: Brock Rozen To: Paul Allen Rice Cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM Subject: RE: Threatening to sue In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970917072957.01194ff8@solar.sky.net> Message-Id: X-Backup: Disable X-Url: http://www.torah.org/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Paul Allen Rice wrote: > I finally broke down and unsubbed him manually. It always a question of where you draw the line. On an individual basis, many times it's just easier to unsub them manually -- but if you had to do that for each and every person...well. OTOH, what do you gain by teaching one person that will help the next? Not much since most of these bozos probably don't teach each other. My solution? I have some programs I've made to unsub people from *all* our lists with one simple commands. I have another that sends them our auto-responder. I just run both programs with their e-mail address as a variable. They get taken off and the auto-responder is one swoop. Very easy and clean. ----------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@torah.org | http://www.torah.org/~brozen | ----------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 25 12:43:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA15174 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id QAA15136 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id CAA27999 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 02:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12944 invoked by uid 500); 23 Sep 1997 09:54:36 -0000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please References: <2AD5C2DDB0C3D0118D9F00609754111A3EA43C@machine.control.com> From: Russ Allbery In-Reply-To: Jennifer Powell's message of Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:42:20 -0400 Date: 23 Sep 1997 02:54:35 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 43 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jennifer Powell writes: > Russ Allbery wrote: >> Understanding this has been part of Internet etiquette for years, and >> is one of the major reasons behind the maxim that on-line disputes >> should not be taken off-line unless there is absolutely no other >> recourse. > Could you please explain this? I don't see why one should "not" take a > dispute offline. Perhaps it depends on the type of dispute... and I am > not sure what it has to do with the unofficial status of most lists. Kynn had a fairly nice answer to this, but I should probably clarify one additional point as well. When I say "off-line," I don't mean by that taking it to private e-mail (which *is* appropriate 99% of the time and is highly encouraged). The term "off-line" is often used to refer to that as well. What I mean is going for lawyers, letters to deans, phone calls to employers, and so forth -- in other words, involving "real world" authorities in the problem. Kynn laid out the specific facts; I'll add the general underlying principle that still applies today even though Internet services aren't built on quite as much of a house of cards as they are now. Off-line authorities generally don't understand Usenet or Internet culture at all. This is particularly true of judges. You have to go to great lengths to explain to them what's normal. For example, it's quite common in the middle of flamewars for people to start calling each other all sorts of nasty names and threatening various things that aren't taken seriously on Usenet or on some mailing lists (although mailing lists tend to be calmer on the whole) but which might well be taken seriously if similar things were said face-to-face. The general result is that as soon as something goes off-line and starts reaching real-world authorities who do not understand Internet culture is that things get blown completely out of proportion and often get massively misinterpreted, not to mention the annoyance factor that still in many places of the Net could get things shut down altogether. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 25 12:47:17 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA15203 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id QAA15179 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id DAA06546 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 03:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id DAA19055; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 03:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709231046.DAA19055@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <12.DC6A7487@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:51:23 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 3006; Tue, 23 Sep 97 12:50:46 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 4081; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:50:46 +0200 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:19:51 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: List Owners and Site Managers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, amys@amys-answers.com In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:29:53 +0000 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:29:53 +0000 amys@amys-answers.com said: >Just for grins I undertook a "subscribe" proceedure for this list. The >pre "welcome" messages states this: > > FISH-ECOLOGY is managed by Mr. Eric Thomas [Systems Operator], EARN > Services/SUNET and Aldo-Pier Solari [Listowner], PhD. cand. > Fisheries ecology - U. of Lund, Sweden. To dispel a possible misunderstanding, Aldo wrote this welcome letter and I did not know about the "acknowledgements" section, of which the above is an excerpt (ie I never bothered to read it). I have never been involved in running the list, other than by running the server and assisting Aldo when he had a problem. The subscribers generally have no idea who I am, and searching the archives I see that I only ever made two postings to the list, of which one was a standard boilerplate sent to all the lists when we migrated from the mainframe to the Alpha, and the other was an official statement concerning a complaint made to SUNET against Aldo. Likewise, the acknowledgement in the welcome message also thanks the EARN Board of Directors "for assistance with routing through non-crashing nodes", when this assistance came from the EARN technical group and was actually in spite of the EARN board's stance on the issue, which was that Spain was responsible for defining quality standards in Spain and we techies had no business telling Spain that delays of a week or more in the transmission of e-mail were not acceptable and needed to be addressed. Besides which, the EARN association was dismantled a couple years ago and the "crashing nodes" had been sold for scrap long before that, so the whole section is at best historical. As for the SUNET board, they probably didn't even know that we ran a list called FISH-ECOLOGY until recently. Aldo did not run any of this by me or I would have pointed out all the errors. All this to say that you shouldn't take the presence of my name in this acknowledgement section to mean that I was co-owner. Eric From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 25 13:37:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id NAA15231 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id QAA15300 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from is.rice.edu (is.rice.edu [128.42.42.24]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id FAA22264 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 05:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cathyf@localhost) by is.rice.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA27002 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:47:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Catherine Anne Foulston Message-Id: <199709231247.HAA27002@is.rice.edu> Subject: Taking a dispute "offline" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:47:08 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Are there perhaps two different uses of "offline" here? "Taking it offline" in the sense of complaining to postmasters, or worse yet lawyers, should be a last resort, yes. But most of the time when I see this phrase used, it means "take the dispute to private email instead of annoying an entire mailing list/newsgroup with a personal disagreement." That should be done as early in a dispute as possible. IMHO, of course. Cathy -- Catherine Foulston cathyf@rice.edu Rice University Network Management From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 25 14:25:47 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA20176 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id OAA20141 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (kynn.pom.primenet.com [204.212.52.58]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14674; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970925141941.00ee2994@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:19:41 -0700 To: Russ Allbery From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Req./Assistance fr. Senior list owners, please Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: <2AD5C2DDB0C3D0118D9F00609754111A3EA43C@machine.control.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:54 a.m. 09/23/97 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: >Kynn laid out the specific facts; I'll add the general underlying >principle that still applies today even though Internet services aren't >built on quite as much of a house of cards as they are now. Off-line >authorities generally don't understand Usenet or Internet culture at all. >This is particularly true of judges. You have to go to great lengths to >explain to them what's normal. Another good point, that I'd missed -- thanks for the addition, Russ. Often it's hard to explain why exactly something is "right" or "wrong" on the net to people who don't understand. E.g., when trying to explain "spam", sometimes people will tell you, "But I thought the World Wide Web _is_ for advertising?" (Feel free to spit-take at the above, or just spit.) -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Virtual Dog Show is open! www.dogshow.com From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Sep 25 20:09:04 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA00444 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id PAA00396 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (kynn.pom.primenet.com [204.212.52.58]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16170; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970925153806.00f56bf8@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:38:06 -0700 To: Catherine Anne Foulston From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Taking a dispute "offline" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199709231247.HAA27002@is.rice.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 07:47 a.m. 09/23/97 -0500, Catherine Anne Foulston wrote: >Are there perhaps two different uses of "offline" here? Yes, as Russ explained. >[...]most of the >time when I see this phrase used, it means "take the dispute to >private email instead of annoying an entire mailing list/newsgroup >with a personal disagreement." I'd call that "taking it off the list", myself. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Virtual Dog Show is open! www.dogshow.com From owner-list-managers-list Mon Sep 29 18:21:00 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA01048; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (cvobku.cvo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.189.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id EAA01041 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (MX G5.0) id 69; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:53:09 -0700 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:53:09 -0700 From: "Henry W. Miller" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV Message-ID: <009BB01C.0B9DB309.69@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Subject: Mega bounces from JUNO.COM? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Anyone else seeing mega bounces of almost every address with a "user unknown" error going into JUNO.COM? I'm about at the point of dropping JUNO users as a matter of self preservation. -HWM From owner-list-managers-list Mon Sep 29 18:21:01 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA06244; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net (denmark-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.22]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id LAA06237 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Default (pool061-max4.ontario-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [207.217.151.211]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA17682 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709271834.LAA17682@denmark.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: sbrooks@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Sam Brooks Subject: Predicting e-mail traffic Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, Have there been any studies to predict the amount of traffic a discussion list will generate, based on the number of subscribers? e.g. will 1,000 listmembers generate 150 posts per day, sort of thing. Thanks in advance Sam sbrooks@earthlink.net From owner-list-managers-list Mon Sep 29 18:21:08 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA08225; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 22:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id WAA08215 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 22:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id OAA23345 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id QAA23520 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:48:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199709252148.QAA23520@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: RE: Threatening to sue Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 16:49:18 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9/23/97 12:12 AM, Brock Rozen wrote... >OTOH, what do you gain by teaching one person that will help the next? You help all the other list owners and list subscribers that are likely to be the next guy's target when spammed unsubscribe requests. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From owner-list-managers-list Mon Sep 29 18:26:42 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA20517; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sportsurf.net (sportsurf.net [192.41.36.58]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id LAA20239 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.204.56.156] (sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156]) by sportsurf.net (8.8.5) id MAA15560; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:06:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709261806.MAA15560@sportsurf.net> X-Authentication-Warning: sportsurf.net: Host sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156] claimed to be [192.204.56.156] Subject: distinction among: owner, monitor and moderator Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 14:15:54 -0000 x-sender: mark@sportsurf.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Mark Rauterkus To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >DEFINITIONS: > >For the purposes of this research, we are making a distinction among the >following roles: list owner, list monitor and list moderator. Hi Folks, The above terms don't work well, IMHO. This is a pet project of mine. The titles and definitions that we are setting forth for the present and future of our lists -- and something that I hope catches on as a standard is: List-Clerk & List-Lifeguards. List-Clerk -- System Administrators, ListMaster, Webmasters, List-Owners. These folks handle the technical side of the network, archives, list-creation, etc. & List-Lifeguard -- Keeping discussions on track, zaps bad-boys, squashes flames. These folks watch the list from post to post. Volunteer List-Lifeguards are highly welcomed. List-Lifeguards should have a handle on the content areas of the list discussions. and, of course: Moderator (self described) -- as in a moderated list. === To take this one step further, I'm not even happy with the term, "LIST." The LIST term is one that is getting old, IMHO, but should get dropped in the next round of changes. Yes, the ownership issues are murky. Thanks for the ideas shared so far. -------------- Mark Rauterkus, Publisher, S.S.S. http://www.sportsurf.net mrauterkus@sportsurf.net http://www.SportSurf.Net/FootNotes FootNotes: Mac E-book authoring and distribution environment with built-in multi-media, lan, web, internet and e-mail capabilities. -------------- From owner-list-managers-list Mon Sep 29 18:44:52 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA29024; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wasatch.com (ns.wasatch.com [204.99.129.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id SAA29001 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (209.63.78.37) by mail.wasatch.com with smtp (Linux Smail3.2.0.94 #1) id m0xFr9W-000SZJC; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:31:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <343062B8.445@wasatch.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:23:52 -0700 From: "W. David Samuelsen" Reply-To: "W. David Samuelsen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Henry W. Miller" CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mega bounces from JUNO.COM? References: <009BB01C.0B9DB309.69@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -- Henry W. Miller wrote: > > Anyone else seeing mega bounces of almost every address with a > "user unknown" error going into JUNO.COM? I'm about at the point of > dropping JUNO users as a matter of self preservation. > > -HWM Don't drop them. It stopped suddenly this morning. I got same problem. Next it's the AOL - host went AWOL. Now its back on line. Then I got a message from Montreal saying there's terrific lightning going on in the area, wreaking havoc on power supply. From owner-list-managers-list Mon Sep 29 18:59:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA01751; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id SAA01744 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA27812; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:58:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA26742; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:58:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:58:15 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: Sam Brooks cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Predicting e-mail traffic In-Reply-To: <199709271834.LAA17682@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Sam Brooks wrote: > Have there been any studies to predict the amount of traffic > a discussion list will generate, based on the number of subscribers? > > e.g. will 1,000 listmembers generate 150 posts per day, > sort of thing. You might be able to get an average number of posts per number of subscribers with a very large and diverse sample of lists. The topic and nature of the list seems to have a much greater effect on the number of posts than the size of the subscriber list. For example, fan club mailing lists tend to have a very large number of posts in proportion to their subscriber count. An announcement list may only average one post a week regardless of the subscriber count. IMHO, the best way to predict the traffic would be to find a list with a similar topic, administration style, and subscriber count. Some of the server managers who handle a bunch of lists should be able to give you a rough estimate if you can fully describe the list. BTW: Is it just me, or is the list-owners list running in fits and starts for everyone? I'm getting posts which are several days old on an irregular bassis. - murr - From owner-list-managers-list Mon Sep 29 19:14:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA01819; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (kristeva.postmodern.com [198.102.244.54]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id SAA01811 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mcb@localhost) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-960422) id SAA14289; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709300159.SAA14289@server.postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:59:40 +0000 In-Reply-To: <343062B8.445@wasatch.com> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mega bounces from JUNO.COM? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Anyone else seeing mega bounces of almost every address with a > > "user unknown" error going into JUNO.COM? I'm about at the point of > > dropping JUNO users as a matter of self preservation. > > > > -HWM > > Don't drop them. It stopped suddenly this morning. I got same problem. > Next it's the AOL - host went AWOL. Now its back on line. Then I got a > message from Montreal saying there's terrific lightning going on in the > area, wreaking havoc on power supply. Ummmm... pardon me if I missed something, but why would lightning in Montreal cause juno.com to give false "user unknown" messages??? Juno.com is in New York City, so far as I know, and they didn't seem to be off the Net, merely very confused. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From owner-list-managers-list Mon Sep 29 19:21:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA02425; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id TAA02367 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA12702; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:02:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown (world.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16675; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:01:22 -0400 From: jkahila@world.std.com (John Kahila) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Predicting e-mail traffic Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:01:35 -0400 Message-Id: <343859a2.5473409@world.std.com> References: <199709271834.LAA17682@denmark.it.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <199709271834.LAA17682@denmark.it.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:34:12 -0700 (PDT), Sam Brooks wrote: >Hi, > >Have there been any studies to predict the amount of traffic >a discussion list will generate, based on the number of subscribers? > >e.g. will 1,000 listmembers generate 150 posts per day, > sort of thing. Not that I know of. Getting the necessary data (specifically the number of subscribers at any given time) might be tricky unless the list-owner kept really good history. One could sample with "who", though; might make an interesting project. OTOH I recently did a curve-fitting exercise for "bytes archived per month" on another Majordomo list that's been around for a few years, and could reasonably be expected to have stable growth. The resulting model was very close to linear. (Probably "really" exponential. The second-order coefficient was large enough to take notice of, but still small; there didn't seem to be any value in a higher-order polynomial fit.) The fit seemed pretty good, and I was mildly surprised at not finding any "September effect" in the residuals. =46WIW the model gave roughly 0.00032T^2 + 0.4T, where T is days from = list inception and size is measured in K. Clearly these numbers would be different for other lists. john k --=20 Our view of life's misleading but of course we have bad seats - William Gaddis, _JR_ From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 03:29:19 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA28121; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (cvobku.cvo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.189.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id DAA28085 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (MX G5.0) id 1; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:05:32 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:05:32 -0700 From: "Henry W. Miller" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV Message-ID: <009BB0D6.2D959769.1@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Subject: AOL upgrade - B.S. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"Mailer-daemon@aol.com" 30-SEP-1997 02:43:20.98 > To: MX%"owner-FREEMASONRY-LIST@MASONIC.ORG" > CC: > Subj: Returned Mail: Undeliverable > OK, this is absolute B.S. I just received this back from AOL: (names changed to protect the innocent) On Tue, 30 Sep 1997 05:43:12 -0400 (EDT), Mailer-daemon@aol.com said: Mailer-daemon@aol.com writes: > The mail you sent could not be delivered to: > 550 xxx@aol.com is temporarily unavailable while we upgrade our system > 550 yyy@aol.com is temporarily unavailable while we upgrade our system > > The text you sent follows: > Come on! I understand that system maintenance has to occur, but bouncing mail instead of holding onto it until such time that it can be delivered is, in my opinion, sheer incompetence. I know that we've had our share of AOL bashing on this list, and perhaps this list is not the proper place for this, but, come on! I almost cannot believe this. I would really like an explanation from AOL about this, and if I do get one, I'll pass along the details. -HWM From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 08:04:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA15801; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 07:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id HAA15772 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 07:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jane.smoe.org (jeffw@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28630; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4-daemon-mode-relay2) id KAA23505; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:49:00 -0400 Message-ID: <19970930104859.07877@smoe.org> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:48:59 -0400 From: Jeff Wasilko To: "Henry W. Miller" Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL upgrade - B.S. References: <009BB0D6.2D959769.1@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <009BB0D6.2D959769.1@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV>; from "Henry W. Miller" on Tue, Sep 30, 1997 at 03:05:32AM -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, Sep 30, 1997 at 03:05:32AM -0700, Henry W. Miller wrote: > I know that we've had our share of AOL bashing on this list, and > perhaps this list is not the proper place for this, but, come on! I > almost cannot believe this. I would really like an explanation from AOL > about this, and if I do get one, I'll pass along the details. You won't get one. I received a death threat from an AOL luser, and no one at AOL would do the courtesy of returning my email about the issue. A bunch of losers, that's what they are... -jeff From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 08:18:17 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA16054; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 07:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from internet.nacion.co.cr ([200.9.58.163]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id HAA15968 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 07:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.14.168] by internet.nacion.co.cr (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-17935) with ESMTP id AAA221 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:43:31 -0600 X-Sender: dmurillo@pop.nacion.co.cr Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <343859a2.5473409@world.std.com> References: <199709271834.LAA17682@denmark.it.earthlink.net> <199709271834.LAA17682@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:51:00 -0600 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: dmurillo@nacion.co.cr (David Murillo) Subject: Re: Predicting e-mail traffic Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Like this: The Internet Index Number 19 Inspired by "Harper's Index"* Compiled by Win Treese (treese@OpenMarket.com) 10 September 1997 Number of delinquent taxpayers listed on the Web page of the Connecticut Department of Revenue Services: 100 Estimated percentage decrease in the number of delinquent taxpayers since the Website went on-line: 30 According to Boardwatch Magazine, approximate number of Internet Service Providers (ISPs) in the U.S. and Canada, in August, 1997: 4,133 Number of ISPs listed by Boardwatch in February, 1996: 1,447 Amount of venture capital investments in Internet companies during the second quarter of 1997, in millions of dollars: 561.5 Number of companies receiving the money: 111 Number of Internet-related job titles in the new proposed edition of the Standard Occupational Categories of the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics: 0 Number of occupations listed: 795 Number of Americans who consider the Internet "indispensable," in millions: 20 Percentage difference in time spent on the Web by business users over home users: 65 Rank of censorship among users concerned about issues facing the Internet: 1 Percentage of U.S. Internet users identifying themselves as Republicans: 34 Rank of Internet security among accountant's top technology concerns for 1997: 1 By the year 2000, estimated percentage of Internet commerce related to travel: 41 Estimated number of e-mail messages that will be sent in the year 1997, in trillions: 2.7 Estimated number of e-mail messages that will be sent in the year 2000, in trillions: 6.9 Estimated amount spent by end-users on Internet and Intranet products in 1996, in billions of dollars: 19 Number of subscribers to the Internet Index mailing list, August, 1994: 213 Number of subscribers to the Internet Index mailing list, September, 1997: 10,118 Copyright 1997 by Win Treese. Send updates or interesting statistics to treese@OpenMarket.com. "Harper's Index" is a registered trademark of Harper's Magazine Foundation. Past issues and citations to sources can be found at http://www.openmarket.com/intindex/. To subscribe to future issues of the Internet Index, send a message saying "subscribe" in the body to internet-index-request@OpenMarket.com. >On Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:34:12 -0700 (PDT), Sam Brooks > wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>Have there been any studies to predict the amount of traffic >>a discussion list will generate, based on the number of subscribers? >> >>e.g. will 1,000 listmembers generate 150 posts per day, >> sort of thing. > ------------------------------- David Murillo Gerente de Circulacion, Unicom Tel: (506) 247-4420 Fax: (506) 247-4477 Apdo. 1517-1100 San Jose, Costa Rica From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 08:47:42 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA23018; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (cvobku.cvo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.189.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id IAA23007 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (MX G5.0) id 55; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:30:37 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:30:36 -0700 From: "Henry W. Miller" To: jeffw@smoe.org CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV Message-ID: <009BB103.96F20C9C.55@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Subject: Re: AOL upgrade - B.S. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"jeffw@smoe.org" "Jeff Wasilko" 30-SEP-1997 07:48:05.20 > To: MX%"henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV" > CC: MX%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" > Subj: Re: AOL upgrade - B.S. > On Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:48:59 -0400, Jeff Wasilko said: Jeff Wasilko writes: Jeff, > On Tue, Sep 30, 1997 at 03:05:32AM -0700, Henry W. Miller wrote: > > I know that we've had our share of AOL bashing on this list, and > > perhaps this list is not the proper place for this, but, come on! I > > almost cannot believe this. I would really like an explanation from AOL > > about this, and if I do get one, I'll pass along the details. > > You won't get one. > > I received a death threat from an AOL luser, and no one at AOL > would do the courtesy of returning my email about the issue. > Oh, really? Did you take that to the FBI? > A bunch of losers, that's what they are... > > -jeff -HWM From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 09:05:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA23316; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wasatch.com (ns.wasatch.com [204.99.129.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id IAA23258 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (209.63.78.60) by mail.wasatch.com with smtp (Linux Smail3.2.0.94 #1) id m0xG4HU-000SbPC; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:32:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <343127D7.6885@wasatch.com> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:24:55 -0700 From: "W. David Samuelsen" Reply-To: "W. David Samuelsen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Juno problem Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Quote from Rootsweb owners to the listowners (there are over 1,500 of them) from Listowners List (Monday 29 September 7:41 am - referring to the crash the night before of Juno) ---Begin Quote--- Juno died in an exquisitely messy way last night. Almost took down one of RootsWeb's two mail servers along the way, and they did briefly crash our mail hub machine twice. Karen and I had great fun. If the idiots had brain one, they should have dropped their net connection as soon as they realized they'd effectively deleted each and every one of their subscribers. Then mail would have quietly queued on remote machines all over The Net. (We could have held about 3 GB of mail for Juno in RootsWeb's mail queue areas if they had simply stopped accepting mail.) Instead, they stayed on The Net and bounced every piece of mail they received as "user unknown". *sigh* ---End Quote--- Still no explanation of the AOL's massive bounce yesterday morning. W. David Samuelsen From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 09:15:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA26637; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id IAA26621 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway.tssi.com [198.147.197.29]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA25820 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:54:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA08987 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:54:41 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA06255 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:54:38 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199709301554.KAA06255@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: AOL upgrade To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:54:38 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > On Tue, Sep 30, 1997 at 03:05:32AM -0700, Henry W. Miller wrote: > > I know that we've had our share of AOL bashing on this list, and > > perhaps this list is not the proper place for this, but, come on! I > > almost cannot believe this. I would really like an explanation from AOL > > about this, and if I do get one, I'll pass along the details. > > You won't get one. > > I received a death threat from an AOL luser, and no one at AOL > would do the courtesy of returning my email about the issue. > > A bunch of losers, that's what they are... And with an attitude like that, you're really going to encourage them to improve, too. Before I consider the lack of a response a problem, what did you do to elicit one, i.e, send the offending e-mail to postmaster@aol.com, etc? My experiences with AOL the past year or two have been fairly good, when I have had SERIOUS problems, I've gotten reasonable responses from them. (Not necessarily an immediate solution, but a response.) We used to have an AOL mail administrator active on this list, did he go off the list or leave AOL? -- Mike Nolan From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 12:14:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA21374; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tower.itis.com (itis.com [209.83.0.131]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id LAA21292 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skuld (j19.itis.com [209.83.6.148]) by tower.itis.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12727 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:24:27 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199709301824.NAA12727@tower.itis.com> Reply-To: From: "Katim S. Touray" To: Subject: Re: Posting Copyrighted News on a Mailing List Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:20:07 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi there, This is to say thanks so much for all your feed-back about my question on copyright issues on a mailing list. After a lot of debate, and hurling of verbal Molotov coctails, our list has decided to refrain from continuing posting copyrighted items. I forwarded a number of your replies to our list, as proof of the prevailing sentiment out there, and I think everyone got your messages. Again, thanks a lot for your help. Have a great week! Katim From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 12:20:34 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA27832; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (cvobku.cvo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.189.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id LAA27765 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (MX G5.0) id 7; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:00:06 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:00:05 -0700 From: "Henry W. Miller" To: nolan@tssi.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.com, henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV Message-ID: <009BB120.DAE6645D.7@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Subject: Re: AOL upgrade Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"nolan@tssi.com" 30-SEP-1997 09:21:10.23 > To: MX%"list-managers@GreatCircle.com" > CC: > Subj: Re: AOL upgrade > On Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:54:38 -0500 (CDT), Mike Nolan said: Mike Nolan writes: > > On Tue, Sep 30, 1997 at 03:05:32AM -0700, Henry W. Miller wrote: > > > I know that we've had our share of AOL bashing on this list, and > > > perhaps this list is not the proper place for this, but, come on! I > > > almost cannot believe this. I would really like an explanation from AOL > > > about this, and if I do get one, I'll pass along the details. > > > > You won't get one. > > > > I received a death threat from an AOL luser, and no one at AOL > > would do the courtesy of returning my email about the issue. > > > > A bunch of losers, that's what they are... > > And with an attitude like that, you're really going to encourage them to > improve, too. > > Before I consider the lack of a response a problem, what did you do to elicit > one, i.e, send the offending e-mail to postmaster@aol.com, etc? > Exactly. > My experiences with AOL the past year or two have been fairly good, when I > have had SERIOUS problems, I've gotten reasonable responses from them. > (Not necessarily an immediate solution, but a response.) > I've actually receieved good feedback from AOL concerning SPAM, poor response concerning other problems. > We used to have an AOL mail administrator active on this list, did he go > off the list or leave AOL? > -- > Mike Nolan -HWM From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 13:45:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA12808; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grinch.whoville.leftbank.com (grinch.leftbank.com [139.167.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id MAA08258 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zax.whoville.leftbank.com by grinch.whoville.leftbank.com via smtpd (for [198.102.244.44]) with SMTP; 30 Sep 1997 19:53:29 UT Received: from horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com (horton.whoville.leftbank.com [139.167.32.35]) by zax.leftbank.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/LeftBank-1.1/http://www.leftbank.com/) with ESMTP id PAA00261 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:55:18 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan J. Mehl" Received: (from nmehl@localhost) by horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/http://www.LeftBank.Com) id PAA18099 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:51:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709301951.PAA18099@horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com> Subject: Today's award for "Most Obfuscated Bounce Message" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:51:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ...goes without question to the lovely folks over at webtv.net: > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- > <"numberone?user-id=2969781&subscriber-id=2969718&category=normal"@postoffice.alma.webtv.net> Sheesh. -n -- The life of a sysadmin is always intense! Nathan J. Mehl --- The LeftBank Operation nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com A Global Internet Company. http://www.gi.net From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 16:44:50 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA27668; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id QAA27536 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA09723; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709302328.QAA09723@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: jeffw@smoe.org CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@shell7.ba.best.com In-reply-to: <19970930104859.07877@smoe.org> (message from Jeff Wasilko on Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:48:59 -0400) Subject: Re: AOL upgrade - B.S. Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:48:59 -0400 From: Jeff Wasilko I received a death threat from an AOL luser, and no one at AOL would do the courtesy of returning my email about the issue. A bunch of losers, that's what they are... I've had my share of nonresponse from AOL on tech problems. It's been almost a year for example since my news echo to them stopped working and all I get are innane responses or promises to look into it. But when you're talking about serious stuff, AOL has been great. If you got a death threat from an AOL user, they will take action. If not, then you must have slipped through the cracks which is pretty inexcusable but not their norm. When I had some problems with 3 AOL users who were trying to get one of my subscribers (who was also a friend) to committ suicide (long story but they knew her triggers), AOL was extremely responsive. They couldn't do anything until I gave them some sort of proof (I trusted my friend but she wouldn't let AOL know her name or see the letters) but once I was able to nail the bastards on something, their accounts were yanked immediately. For the really bad stuff, like your death threat, don't write abuse or postmaster, write David O'Donnell (and his staff) at atropos@aol.net and he will make sure your complaint is followed up on. I have *always* been able to get positive action from AOL, for each of many complaints. I'm sorry to hear they dropped the ball in your case but I hope you persue it. A lot of AOL's policies suck but, for hte most part, their computer staff is pretty good. Most importantly, they are real people who get the issues of the net (can't say the same about the execs). Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 16:58:52 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA03905; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netguide.com (nexus.netguide.com [199.108.80.129]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id QAA03875 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from delundel.netguide.com by netguide.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA20578; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:54:04 -0700 Message-ID: <343191D8.66C7@netguide.com> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:57:12 -0700 From: David Lundell Reply-To: delundel@netguide.com Organization: CMP Media, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Re: AOL upgrade References: <009BB120.DAE6645D.7@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > > > Before I consider the lack of a response a problem, what did you do to elicit > > one, i.e, send the offending e-mail to postmaster@aol.com, etc? > > > > Exactly. Just FYI, the correct address to send reports e-mail infractions by an AOL user is tosemail1@aol.com. I've found that it's often the case that when someone says they never received a response to a problem that merits a response, they have sent it to the incorrect person, department, or organization. I'm not saying that this was the case here -- but as most of us know first-hand as list managers, it is very easy for a user to make a valid request in an inappropriate way, and even easier for that user to get upset when that request goes unheeded. Cheers, David Lundell Producer, E-mail Products CMPnet | http://www.cmpnet.com Newsletters with a technology focus: http://www.techweb.com/delivery/delivery.html From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 18:43:58 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA10231; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id RAA10141 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id TAA00930 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:37:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710010037.TAA00930@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: AOL upgrade Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 19:38:31 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9/30/97 6:57 PM CDT, David Lundell wrote... >> > >> > Before I consider the lack of a response a problem, what did you do to >elicit >> > one, i.e, send the offending e-mail to postmaster@aol.com, etc? >> > >> >> Exactly. > >Just FYI, the correct address to send reports e-mail infractions by an >AOL user is tosemail1@aol.com. Not entirely correct. Internet users reporting abuse (email or usenet) by AOL members should report it to abuse@aol.net. The TOSEmail1 box is only for AOL members to report email abuse by other AOL members. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 20:45:01 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA09102; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.254.96.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id TAA03746 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA12427 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:31:00 -0400 X-Sender: humour@humournet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199709301951.PAA18099@horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:34:05 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Today's award for "Most Obfuscated Bounce Message" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 15:51 -0400 9/30/97, Nathan J. Mehl said: >...goes without question to the lovely folks over at webtv.net: > >> ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- >> <"numberone?user-id=2969781&subscriber-id=2969718&category=normal"@postoffice.alma.webtv.net> > >Sheesh. Yes. WebTV bounces are totally useless. I've talked to the postmaster about them, but he can't even *spell* "RFC," much less understand one. It was a pointless endeavor. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre: vince@humournet.com HumourNet: Stop Internet Spam! Segmentation Fault: Operating System Not Booted From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 20:49:05 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA18219; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyberq.quality.org (cyberq.quality.org [199.181.80.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id UAA17995 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (help@localhost) by cyberq.quality.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA04841; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:25:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:25:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)" To: "Henry W. Miller" cc: nolan@tssi.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL upgrade In-Reply-To: <009BB120.DAE6645D.7@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I know the Postmaster at AOL (the real one, not the minions). Send me the message and I'll send it on to him for comment. No, I won't give you his personal email address. Bill On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Henry W. Miller wrote: > > From: MX%"nolan@tssi.com" 30-SEP-1997 09:21:10.23 > > To: MX%"list-managers@GreatCircle.com" > > CC: > > Subj: Re: AOL upgrade > > > > On Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:54:38 -0500 (CDT), Mike Nolan said: > Mike Nolan writes: > > > > On Tue, Sep 30, 1997 at 03:05:32AM -0700, Henry W. Miller wrote: > > > > I know that we've had our share of AOL bashing on this list, and > > > > perhaps this list is not the proper place for this, but, come on! I > > > > almost cannot believe this. I would really like an explanation from AOL > > > > about this, and if I do get one, I'll pass along the details. > > > > > > You won't get one. > > > > > > I received a death threat from an AOL luser, and no one at AOL > > > would do the courtesy of returning my email about the issue. > > > > > > A bunch of losers, that's what they are... > > > > And with an attitude like that, you're really going to encourage them to > > improve, too. > > > > Before I consider the lack of a response a problem, what did you do to elicit > > one, i.e, send the offending e-mail to postmaster@aol.com, etc? > > > > Exactly. > > > My experiences with AOL the past year or two have been fairly good, when I > > have had SERIOUS problems, I've gotten reasonable responses from them. > > (Not necessarily an immediate solution, but a response.) > > > > I've actually receieved good feedback from AOL concerning SPAM, > poor response concerning other problems. > > > We used to have an AOL mail administrator active on this list, did he go > > off the list or leave AOL? > > -- > > Mike Nolan > > > -HWM > From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 21:14:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA23999; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.wco.com (shell.wco.com [199.4.94.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id VAA23983 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from User.wco.com (clavius36.wco.com [199.4.109.36]) by shell.wco.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/WCO-18jul97) with SMTP id VAA10874; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970930210940.008f56d0@mail.wco.com> X-Sender: 2bits@mail.wco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:09:40 -0700 To: cnorman@best.com From: "Todd O." <2bits@wco.com> Subject: Re: AOL upgrade - B.S. Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199709302328.QAA09723@shell7.ba.best.com> References: <19970930104859.07877@smoe.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 04:28 PM 9/30/97 -0700, Cyndi Norman wrote: >For the really bad stuff, like your death threat, don't write abuse or >postmaster, write David O'Donnell (and his staff) at atropos@aol.net and >he >will make sure your complaint is followed up on. I have *always* been >able I have gotten the sense that contacting David O'Donnel is about the only way to get AOL to respond to valid complaints from internet users. I have had several experiences where mail to abuse@aol.net gets nothing more than an automated reply, but contacting O'Donnel (or other emergency abuse staff) gets quick and appropriate results. I have chronicled one such episode on the web at http://www.keck.ucsf.edu/~dblake/toddo/aol-ban.htm. The story includes a phone number to reach O'Donnel and crew, which may come in handy for other list-managers. Todd Ourston -- Todd Ourston * 2bits@wco.com * Marin County, California From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 21:44:26 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA27480; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id VAA27455 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:40:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (kynn.pom.primenet.com [204.212.52.58]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA14076; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970930213428.00d868e4@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:34:28 -0700 To: "Todd O." <2bits@wco.com> From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: AOL upgrade - B.S. Cc: cnorman@best.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970930210940.008f56d0@mail.wco.com> References: <199709302328.QAA09723@shell7.ba.best.com> <19970930104859.07877@smoe.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:09 p.m. 09/30/97 -0700, Todd O. wrote: >I have gotten the sense that contacting David O'Donnel is about the only >way to get AOL to respond to valid complaints from internet users. I have >had several experiences where mail to abuse@aol.net gets nothing more than >an automated reply, but contacting O'Donnel (or other emergency abuse >staff) gets quick and appropriate results. I have chronicled one such >episode on the web at [...] Huh. I'd think that such things would be annoying and distract Mr. O'Donnell from his work, instead of helping. Much the same way as I'd be annoyed if someone started writing to my personal email address or telephoning me, instead of writing to my majordomo's majordomo@Mlists.com address or the owner- address. Maybe I'm just weird like that. If David has specifically said to contact him directly instead of writing to abuse@aol.com, then hey, it's his choice. (If he hasn't, though, you're probably out of line in suggesting that as the best way to resolve your problems.) -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Virtual Dog Show is open! www.dogshow.com From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 22:29:36 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA01072; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.wco.com (shell.wco.com [199.4.94.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id VAA00859 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from User.wco.com (clavius36.wco.com [199.4.109.36]) by shell.wco.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/WCO-18jul97) with SMTP id VAA23240; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970930215650.007fcde0@mail.wco.com> X-Sender: 2bits@mail.wco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:56:50 -0700 To: Kynn Bartlett From: "Todd O." <2bits@wco.com> Subject: Re: AOL upgrade - B.S. Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970930213428.00d868e4@mail.idyllmtn.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19970930210940.008f56d0@mail.wco.com> <199709302328.QAA09723@shell7.ba.best.com> <19970930104859.07877@smoe.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:34 PM 9/30/97 -0700, Kynn Bartlett wrote: >Maybe I'm just weird like that. If David has specifically said to >contact him directly instead of writing to abuse@aol.com, then hey, I received both the phone number and the alternative e-mail address someone else posted directly from David during a period when both Vandeman and Lipsitz were causing my lists and a couple hundred others a great deal of grief and AOL was running weeks behind in dealing with the problems. I have never received instructions not to use either method of contact. I do, however, use abuse@aol.net for the first few contacts, then, when I get no response, I escalate the matter. If AOL would provide sufficient staffing to keep up with abuse their members create on the net, I would expect never to have occasion to use any method of contact other than abuse@aol.net. Meanwhile, I don't think it reasonable to sit back and wait while their members threaten to, and/or actually do crash the server I am relying on to carry my list. >it's his choice. (If he hasn't, though, you're probably out of >line in suggesting that as the best way to resolve your problems.) I made no such suggestion. I provided an explanation of my own experiences. Others can draw their own conclusions about how they should proceed if and when the time comes. Todd Ourston -- Todd Ourston * 2bits@wco.com * Marin County, California From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 22:32:19 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA28682; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id VAA25937 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyberq.quality.org by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id UAA10384; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (help@localhost) by cyberq.quality.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA04903; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:32:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:32:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)" To: Cyndi Norman cc: List Managers List Subject: Re: AOL upgrade - B.S. In-Reply-To: <199709302328.QAA09723@shell7.ba.best.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Exactly! David is THE Postmaster at AOL and the right person to direct serious stuff to. Regards. Bill ============================================================================= Bill Casti, CQA Email: help@quality.org - List Moderator, "TQM in Manufacturing and Service Industries" List Address: QUALITY@pucc.princeton.edu ============================================================================= On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Cyndi Norman wrote: > Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:48:59 -0400 > From: Jeff Wasilko > > I received a death threat from an AOL luser, and no one at AOL > would do the courtesy of returning my email about the issue. > > A bunch of losers, that's what they are... > > I've had my share of nonresponse from AOL on tech problems. It's been > almost a year for example since my news echo to them stopped working and > all I get are innane responses or promises to look into it. > > But when you're talking about serious stuff, AOL has been great. If you > got a death threat from an AOL user, they will take action. If not, then > you must have slipped through the cracks which is pretty inexcusable but > not their norm. > > When I had some problems with 3 AOL users who were trying to get one of my > subscribers (who was also a friend) to committ suicide (long story but they > knew her triggers), AOL was extremely responsive. They couldn't do > anything until I gave them some sort of proof (I trusted my friend but she > wouldn't let AOL know her name or see the letters) but once I was able to > nail the bastards on something, their accounts were yanked immediately. > > For the really bad stuff, like your death threat, don't write abuse or > postmaster, write David O'Donnell (and his staff) at atropos@aol.net and he > will make sure your complaint is followed up on. I have *always* been able > to get positive action from AOL, for each of many complaints. I'm sorry to > hear they dropped the ball in your case but I hope you persue it. A lot of > AOL's policies suck but, for hte most part, their computer staff is pretty > good. Most importantly, they are real people who get the issues of the net > (can't say the same about the execs). > > Cyndi > > -- > _______________________________________________________________________________ > "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman > something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com > __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman > From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 22:58:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA12995; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shore.shore.net (shore.shore.net [192.233.85.136]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id WAA12958 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jane.smoe.org (jeffw@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by shore.shore.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA04185; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 01:56:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4-daemon-mode-relay2) id BAA08505; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 01:57:43 -0400 Message-ID: <19971001015741.01026@smoe.org> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 01:57:41 -0400 From: Jeff Wasilko To: "Todd O." <2bits@wco.com> Cc: cnorman@best.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL upgrade - B.S. References: <19970930104859.07877@smoe.org> <3.0.3.32.19970930210940.008f56d0@mail.wco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970930210940.008f56d0@mail.wco.com>; from "Todd O." on Tue, Sep 30, 1997 at 09:09:40PM -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, Sep 30, 1997 at 09:09:40PM -0700, Todd O. wrote: > At 04:28 PM 9/30/97 -0700, Cyndi Norman wrote: > staff) gets quick and appropriate results. I have chronicled one such > episode on the web at http://www.keck.ucsf.edu/~dblake/toddo/aol-ban.htm. > The story includes a phone number to reach O'Donnel and crew, which may > come in handy for other list-managers. That number (AOL's abuse hotline (1-703-453-4255)) results in a fast-busy whenever I try to call it. It's the same number given in their 'automated postmaster response'. -Jeff From owner-list-managers-list Tue Sep 30 23:14:04 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA15030; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id XAA14995 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jane.smoe.org (jeffw@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA15023; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 02:06:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4-daemon-mode-relay2) id CAA08597; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 02:07:44 -0400 Message-ID: <19971001020744.65043@smoe.org> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 02:07:44 -0400 From: Jeff Wasilko To: "Nathan J. Mehl" Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Today's award for "Most Obfuscated Bounce Message" References: <199709301951.PAA18099@horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199709301951.PAA18099@horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com>; from "Nathan J. Mehl" on Tue, Sep 30, 1997 at 03:51:37PM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, Sep 30, 1997 at 03:51:37PM -0400, Nathan J. Mehl wrote: > > ...goes without question to the lovely folks over at webtv.net: > > > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- > > <"numberone?user-id=2969781&subscriber-id=2969718&category=normal"@postoffice.alma.webtv.net> > > Sheesh. that's a doozy!