From owner-list-managers-list Sun Nov 2 17:59:26 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA20055; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from outlawnet.com (outlawnet.com [204.245.248.202]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id RAA20046 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:56:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.103.66] (houston2-mc36.access.sinet.slb.com [163.185.166.47]) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA00898 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:55:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710201518.LAA28277@kelvin.internic.net> References: <199710192016.QAA14210@rs2.internic.net> from "Gary E. Bickford" at Oct 19, 97 04:16:18 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:53:38 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Gary E. Bickford" Subject: Invalid Email addresses in InterNIC whois database Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I recently whined to internic about the fact that their DNS records are full of bad information, making it difficult to track down and respond appropriately to spam (for instance, sending complaints to their hosting providers) Their response is of interest. This is excerpted from the entire thing, which is long and boring. I don't think I've left out significant context. First, the relevant part of my mail: >> Folks, >> InterNIC can be a useful and important tool in the self-management (as >>opposed to regulation) of the Internet. >> >> I often use your whois database as a tool in reporting Spam to the >>various ISP's abuse email teams, e.g., abuse@aol.com. I laboriously view >>the email headers of spam, and look up any that aren't obviously bogus in >>whois. I also look up the parent domain, and the owner of the IP address >>block, and send copies to the responsible parties for all of the domains >>I can match. With this method, I have been about 50% successful in >>getting abusers' accounts removed. >> 1. However, I've noticed that a significant percentage of the DNS >>records for valid domains and handles associated with known spammers are >>bogus - false or impossible email addresses and false snailmail addresses >>and phones. >> >> This must mean that your authentication system for email addresses for >>responsible parties' handles is not working as well as it could. I >>suggest that you require more authentication and/or other means of >>assuring a valid, permanent email address for handles. >Dear Customer, > >Thank you for contacting Network Solutions Inc., InterNIC Registration >Services. > >It is the responsibility of the domain holder to update the domain >information. Failure to provide this information does not constitute >grounds for shutting down a domain. At this time, we will take no action >against the domain. > >It is the responsibility of each contact to update their personal >information. > >The InterNIC, like all Internet users, is impacted by individuals who >propagate "spam" (bulk e-mailing) on the network. However, we are >responsible for the administration of the name space and not for >policing its content or use. > >Many Internet Service Providers (ISPs) have policies regarding bulk >e-mails. You may wish to contact the ISP of the user who sent you >the e-mail. > >Best Regards, > >Network Solutions, Inc. /CW From owner-list-managers-list Sun Nov 2 20:14:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA03030; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:03:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id UAA03023 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA18963; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:03:43 -0600 (CST) To: "Gary E. Bickford" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Invalid Email addresses in InterNIC whois database References: <199710192016.QAA14210@rs2.internic.net> from "Gary E. Bickford" at Oct 19, 97 04:16:18 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 02 Nov 1997 22:03:43 -0600 In-Reply-To: "Gary E. Bickford"'s message of Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:53:38 -0600 Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.46/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "GEB" == Gary E Bickford writes: [Quoting InterNIC response] >> It is the responsibility of each contact to update their personal >> information. I bet they make sure the billing address is correct, though. Why do they even bother to keep the information if they don't care whether or not it's useful? - J< From owner-list-managers-list Sun Nov 2 20:59:01 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA05484; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:50:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from outlawnet.com (outlawnet.com [204.245.248.202]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id UAA05466 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.103.66] (houston2-mc36.access.sinet.slb.com [163.185.166.47]) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA02334; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:50:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: "Gary E. Bickford"'s message of Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:53:38 -0600 <199710192016.QAA14210@rs2.internic.net> from "Gary E. Bickford" at Oct 19, 97 04:16:18 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:44:43 -0600 To: Jason L Tibbitts III From: "Gary E. Bickford" Subject: Re: Invalid Email addresses in InterNIC whois database Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>>> "GEB" == Gary E Bickford writes: > >[Quoting InterNIC response] >>> It is the responsibility of each contact to update their personal >>> information. > >I bet they make sure the billing address is correct, though. You got that right. No, actually in my experience they don't care if you get the bill, only that you pay it. > >Why do they even bother to keep the information if they don't care whether >or not it's useful? Kinda what I wondered. Also, how they can consider themselves authoritative. What do they think they are supposed to be doing with that money? From owner-list-managers-list Sun Nov 2 21:44:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA09775; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:38:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id VAA09768 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:37:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.execpc.com (mail.execpc.com [169.207.16.2]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.6) id XAA20186 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:37:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from presario-7212 (jaemus-22.mdm.mad.execpc.com [169.207.41.215]) by mail.execpc.com (8.8.8/8.8.3) with SMTP id XAA17192 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:37:37 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <345D5D72.3B6D@mail.execpc.com> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 23:13:22 -0600 From: Gillam Kerley X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: sunyjefferson.edu Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6CD511612218" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6CD511612218 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I tried sending this several days ago, but it doesn't seem to have gone through. So I'm trying again. GK --------------6CD511612218 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Message-ID: <3458AB3A.8BB@mail.execpc.com> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:43:54 -0600 From: Gillam Kerley X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: sunyjefferson.edu References: <199710300834.AA15211@jive.rahul.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michelle Dick wrote: Every now and then I find myself sending this > form response to a person more than once and having them finally write > with another incorrect attempt and addendum to the effect "if this > doesn't work, I'm giving up, I don't care about your stupid list." My > feelings are: good riddance. If they can't follow the confirm > instructions, how likely are they to follow my posting rules? Or to > be able to successfully unsubscribe themselves when needed? I don't > want folks that clueless on my list, honestly. As a subscriber to lists (who is considering starting a list or two), I have never had any trouble following confirmation instructions, and agree that they are a good idea for the reasons already stated on this list. However, my gripe is with confirmation messages that expire in 24 hours. Depending on my schedule, I may only be able to check my e-mail once or twice a week. By the time I see the confirmation notice, it has expired and I have to start all over or say "to hell with your list." >From the subscriber's standpoint, non-expiring confirmation messages (or messages expiring in 30 days) would be easier to deal with. From the mail bomb victim's standpoint, it shouldn't make any difference, since s/he wouldn't get any mail until/unless s/he confirmed. Does it make a difference from the list manager's perspective? BTW, and forgive my ignorance, given that confirmation commands follow pretty standard formats (and can be obtained by anyone just be requesting to be subscribed), couldn't the creep who is subscribing a victim to unwanted lists just send confirm commands to the list-managers in the victim's name 24 hours after requesting the subscriptions? If not (meaning that the confirm command can come only from the new subscriber's address), why can't a list manager only accept subscription requests that originate from the same address that the subscription is to be sent to? GK --------------6CD511612218-- From owner-list-managers-list Sun Nov 2 23:29:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA15048; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:19:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero-x.rahul.net (bolero.rahul.net [192.160.13.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id XAA15014 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero-x.rahul.net with SMTP id AA27790 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:19:32 -0800 Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA27232; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:19:30 -0800 Message-Id: <199711030719.AA27232@jive.rahul.net> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: sunyjefferson.edu In-Reply-To: <345D5D72.3B6D@mail.execpc.com> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 97 23:19:30 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 02 Nov 1997 23:13:22 -0600 gkerley@execpc.com wrote: > > >From the subscriber's standpoint, non-expiring confirmation messages (or > messages expiring in 30 days) would be easier to deal with. From the > mail bomb victim's standpoint, it shouldn't make any difference, since > s/he wouldn't get any mail until/unless s/he confirmed. Does it make a > difference from the list manager's perspective? My list confirmation for SmartList saves a "cookie" for each subscription request. The number of cookies (unused cookies) saved onsite is configurable. They expire so that the disk spaced used doesn't grow without bounds. I generally set my limits so that about 2 weeks are allowed. This is generally a configurable option for all list software that I know of (for those that save cookies onsite). > BTW, and forgive my ignorance, given that confirmation commands follow > pretty standard formats (and can be obtained by anyone just be > requesting to be subscribed), couldn't the creep who is subscribing a > victim to unwanted lists just send confirm commands to the list-managers > in the victim's name 24 hours after requesting the subscriptions? Because the confirmation request includes a unique code. The creep would have to guess the right code. I use a combination of date (to the second) and process ID. > If > not (meaning that the confirm command can come only from the new > subscriber's address), why can't a list manager only accept subscription > requests that originate from the same address that the subscription is > to be sent to? Because the message headers can and are easily forged. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 09:01:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA01658; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:47:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.proper.com (mail.proper.com [206.86.127.224]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id IAA01634 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from prabhava.proper.com (prabhava.proper.com [165.227.249.110]) by mail.proper.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA17780; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:47:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971103084713.008e64f0@mail.imc.org> X-Sender: paulh@mail.imc.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 08:47:13 -0800 To: Jason L Tibbitts III , "Gary E. Bickford" From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Invalid Email addresses in InterNIC whois database Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: <"Gary E. Bickford"'s message of Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:53:38 -0600> <199710192016.QAA14210@rs2.internic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:03 PM 11/2/97 -0600, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: >I bet they make sure the billing address is correct, though. Not necessarily. As long as they got paid the first time (such as by credit card), I bet they don't even check the billing address. Spammers could easily want to spend the $100 for one year's use of a name and completely hide any contact with the organization. After a year (plus however long NSI lets them get away with not renewing), they simply get a different domain name. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 09:29:01 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA04892; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:23:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexus.pigsfly.com ([207.226.181.210]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id JAA04811 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:22:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from pslfl5-52.gate.net ([199.227.131.52]) by nexus.pigsfly.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-40113U100L100S0) with SMTP id AAA258; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:26:22 +0000 From: jtlist@pigsfly.com (Jerry Trowbridge) To: Gillam Kerley Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: sunyjefferson.edu Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:22:47 GMT Organization: Flying Pig Ranch Reply-To: jtlist@pigsfly.com Message-ID: <346307cb.10398812@pop.pigsfly.com> References: <345D5D72.3B6D@mail.execpc.com> In-Reply-To: <345D5D72.3B6D@mail.execpc.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 02 Nov 1997 23:13:22 -0600, Gillam Kerley wrote: >As a subscriber to lists (who is considering starting a list or two), I >have never had any trouble following confirmation instructions, and >agree that they are a good idea for the reasons already stated on this >list. > >However, my gripe is with confirmation messages that expire in 24 hours. >Depending on my schedule, I may only be able to check my e-mail once or >twice a week. By the time I see the confirmation notice, it has expired >and I have to start all over or say "to hell with your list." I think the best answer to this is a fast list-server. If you can get the confirmation notice back to the user in less than 5 minutes, then they can either confirm or ignore right then and there. This, of course, depends on not only your list-server, but on the mail queue from the potential subscriber's ISP. I'd hope that somebody that checks their email and uploads responses would check it again fairly soon, to catch misdirected messages, bounces, and autoresponses. But of course, we're neither perfect nor living in a perfect world. Jerry Trowbridge --at the Flying Pig Ranch From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 10:29:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA11671; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:15:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id KAA11661 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jac@localhost) by panix.com (8.8.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id NAA24063; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:14:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19971103131439.24255@panix.com> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:14:39 -0500 From: John Clear To: Paul Hoffman / IMC Cc: Jason L Tibbitts III , "Gary E. Bickford" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Invalid Email addresses in InterNIC whois database References: <"Gary <199710192016.QAA14210@rs2.internic.net> <3.0.3.32.19971103084713.008e64f0@mail.imc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103084713.008e64f0@mail.imc.org>; from Paul Hoffman / IMC on Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 08:47:13AM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 08:47:13AM -0800, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > At 10:03 PM 11/2/97 -0600, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > >I bet they make sure the billing address is correct, though. > > Not necessarily. As long as they got paid the first time (such as by credit > card), I bet they don't even check the billing address. Spammers could > easily want to spend the $100 for one year's use of a name and completely > hide any contact with the organization. After a year (plus however long NSI > lets them get away with not renewing), they simply get a different domain > name. No need to get another domain name, just call NSI and put it on a credit card again. For all the money they collect, you'd think they at least be able to do a minimal check of the information given to them before calling it authoritative. John -- John Clear - jac@panix.com PP-ASEL 1Lt, CAP-CAWG http://www.panix.com/~jac "Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines." - Unknown From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 12:44:02 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA29939; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:35:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id MAA29930 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:35:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id OAA04943 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:35:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711032035.OAA04943@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: Invalid Email addresses in InterNIC whois database Date: Mon, 3 Nov 97 14:35:40 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11/3/97 11:47 AM CST, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote... >At 10:03 PM 11/2/97 -0600, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: >>I bet they make sure the billing address is correct, though. > >Not necessarily. As long as they got paid the first time (such as by credit >card), I bet they don't even check the billing address. Spammers could >easily want to spend the $100 for one year's use of a name and completely >hide any contact with the organization. After a year (plus however long NSI >lets them get away with not renewing), they simply get a different domain >name. It's worse than that. The InterNIC gives you one month to pay for your domain registration. I've heard stories of organizations that register a domain, wait for it to lapse, and then register it again - all without spending a cent. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 16:33:46 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA29753; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:14:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu (BROCCOLI.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.53]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id PAA19414 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:13:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from graphics.cornell.edu (LOCALHOST) by broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA026708873; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:27:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199711032027.AA026708873@broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: John Clear Cc: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Jason L Tibbitts III , "Gary E. Bickford" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Invalid Email addresses in InterNIC whois database In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:14:39 EST." <19971103131439.24255@panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 15:27:53 -0500 From: Mitch Collinsworth Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >For all the money they collect, you'd think they at least be able >to do a minimal check of the information given to them before calling >it authoritative. Where do they make the claim that the contact info is authoritative? I thought that only referred to the top level dns. -Mitch -- "Families can't trust Disney" From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 16:44:27 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA29782; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:14:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu (BROCCOLI.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.53]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id PAA19232 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:12:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from graphics.cornell.edu (LOCALHOST) by broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA026378528; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:22:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199711032022.AA026378528@broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC Cc: Jason L Tibbitts III , "Gary E. Bickford" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Invalid Email addresses in InterNIC whois database In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 08:47:13 PST." <3.0.3.32.19971103084713.008e64f0@mail.imc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 15:22:08 -0500 From: Mitch Collinsworth Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Not necessarily. As long as they got paid the first time (such as by credit >card), I bet they don't even check the billing address. Spammers could >easily want to spend the $100 for one year's use of a name and completely >hide any contact with the organization. After a year (plus however long NSI >lets them get away with not renewing), they simply get a different domain >name. The initial $100 gets you 2 years. -Mitch -- "Families can't trust Disney" From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 18:14:01 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA10541; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id RAA10517 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:44:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kidzen@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA06663 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:44:31 -0800 Received: from erzo.org by erzo.org (8.7.5/LUCK-AND-DEATH-1.3) id BAA16704; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:41:27 GMT Message-Id: <199711040141.BAA16704@erzo.org> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Invalid Email addresses in InterNIC whois database Reply-To: appel@erzo.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 15:22:08 EST." <199711032022.AA026378528@broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:41:27 -0800 From: Shannon Appel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I must ask: How exactly do you expect Internic to verify postal addresses and phone numbers? Are they supposed to call/mail every single contact? Do you realize the number of people it would take to verify the hundreds of thousands of phone numbers and addresses? How about the cost in postage and phone tolls? And how often are they going to do this? Every year? Every month? Every day? I'm happy to pay my $50 a year to Internic to have them keep a top level record of my domain, and maintain their infrastructure. I don't want to double or triple my fees just so that Internic can verify my postal address and phone number are right. It would help very marginally against spammers and only then for a limited amount of time (as history has shown us). I'm not willing to permanently increase my Internic bill for that gain. Shannon From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 19:30:17 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA18724; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:00:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id TAA18707 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id VAA23562 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:00:40 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711040300.VAA23562@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: Invalid Email addresses in InterNIC whois database Date: Mon, 3 Nov 97 21:00:50 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11/3/97 8:41 PM CST, Shannon Appel wrote... >How exactly do you expect Internic to verify postal addresses and >phone numbers? As per the subject, we're not. The primary concern is email addresses. Many records will have "no mailbox" or "nobody@nowhere." Of course, there are cases where the phone number and/or address are clearly fake/nonexistent. They should at least do something about that. I don't expect the InterNIC to investigate every entry. I expect them to be responsible about obvious cases of misinformation. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 20:14:04 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA26144; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:54:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id TAA26136 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:54:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.azstarnet.com (mailhost.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id KAA04279 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:20:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from p166 (dialup11ip16.tus.azstarnet.com [169.197.35.80]) by mailhost.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA14985 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:50:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199710311750.KAA14985@mailhost.azstarnet.com> X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Bob & Lauren" Organization: http://www.humvee.com To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:50:21 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Funny "bounce" message from Italy Reply-to: bish@azstarnet.com In-reply-to: <199710310900.BAA23038@honor.greatcircle.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The seem to have a sense of humor. Here's an excerpt: > Hi. This is the qmail-send program at mx13.netvision.net.il. > I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. > This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. > > : > 194.90.1.108 does not like recipient. > Remote host said: 550 ... User unknown > Giving up. ...Bob From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 20:15:36 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA24832; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:43:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id TAA24807 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:43:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom17.netcom.com (netcom17.netcom.com [192.100.81.130]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id HAA21133 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:21:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (grafolog@localhost) by netcom17.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.01)) with SMTP id HAA04913; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:20:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: netcom17.netcom.com: grafolog owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:20:30 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon X-Sender: grafolog@netcom17 To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List owners are a public nuisance? In-Reply-To: <30483.878166124@monkeys.com> Message-ID: x-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > system where the sysadmins refuse to install _any_ kind of list management > software. Is there anything that I can do for myself in this case? That Two possible solutions. #1: If the ISP were to set up the required dummy addresses, you could run SmartList out of your shell. This also assumes that the ISP would let you run procmail and smartlist. This isn't always the case. #2: Have your list at a "Mailing List Farm." There are several of them. xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 20:15:46 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA25361; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:47:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id TAA25350 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:47:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.bsdi.com (austin.BSDI.COM [205.230.232.49]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id MAA08975 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.bsdi.com ({CSHd8MMrOhPd4V0+DY2oUKC5KyS9J8k/}@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by austin.bsdi.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA07316 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:18:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199710302018.NAA07316@austin.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List owners are a public nuisance? In-reply-to: List-Managers-Digest's message of Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:33:52 PST. References: <199710300833.AAA17222@honor.greatcircle.com> From: Tony Sanders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:18:22 -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: David Shaw ... > Many people here seem to be in favor of some sort of list confirmation > system. The thing is - what does this do to your average clueless luser? One step in towards solving that would be to have a web based confirmation URL so they just have to point and click: CLICK BELOW TO CONFIRM YOUR SUBSCRIPTION TO ``inet-access'': http://www.earth.com/cfrm/inet-access/7UygM8kVZPu6TUcp3sgIZd0O0s5TEPC4 ---- DO NOT READ PAST THIS POINT IF THE ABOVE WORKS ---- If the above isn't working email blah.blah.blah That's what I'm currently thinking about doing for inet-access... From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 20:15:59 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA26552; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:57:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id TAA26544 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:57:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from linux.ilinx.com (adm200.mutl-max01.bctel.net [204.174.213.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id PAA20224 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:13:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brian@localhost) by linux.ilinx.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id IAA32486; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:28:30 -0800 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199710291628.IAA32486@linux.ilinx.com> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:28:28 -0800 (PST) To: dshaw@cs.jhu.edu Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: brian@ilinx.com Subject: Re: sunyjefferson.edu In-Reply-To: <19971029093512.16668@cnds.jhu.edu> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3.2-970722-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of David Shaw on scroll <19971029093512.16668@cnds.jhu.edu> > > Many people here seem to be in favor of some sort of list confirmation > system. The thing is - what does this do to your average clueless luser? You mean those same lusers that won't know how to unsubscribe when they are done. Instead they will send unsubscribe messages to the list, and get all pissed off when that doesn't work and start abusing the list users, etc. Don't want 'em thanks. > Speaking as someone who routinely gets *scribe requests to every possible > address _except_ majordomo, and who has seen people reply to a list > message with "t a k e m e o f f" and quote the whole messsage, INCLUDING > the un*sub instructions attached to every message, I have serious doubts > of the ability of these lusers to comphehend what a list confirmation IS! So the confirmation has an added bonus of being a "mailling-list IQ test" at the same time. Whooopeee, bonus. :-) b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 20:16:18 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA24904; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:44:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id TAA24852 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.16.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id IAA27447 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:08:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.execpc.com (mail.execpc.com [169.207.16.2]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.8.6) id KAA10503 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:08:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from presario-7212 (ibanjji-4.mdm.mad.execpc.com [169.207.40.197]) by mail.execpc.com (8.8.8/8.8.3) with SMTP id KAA26710 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:08:27 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3458AB3A.8BB@mail.execpc.com> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:43:54 -0600 From: Gillam Kerley X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: sunyjefferson.edu References: <199710300834.AA15211@jive.rahul.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michelle Dick wrote: Every now and then I find myself sending this > form response to a person more than once and having them finally write > with another incorrect attempt and addendum to the effect "if this > doesn't work, I'm giving up, I don't care about your stupid list." My > feelings are: good riddance. If they can't follow the confirm > instructions, how likely are they to follow my posting rules? Or to > be able to successfully unsubscribe themselves when needed? I don't > want folks that clueless on my list, honestly. As a subscriber to lists (who is considering starting a list or two), I have never had any trouble following confirmation instructions, and agree that they are a good idea for the reasons already stated on this list. However, my gripe is with confirmation messages that expire in 24 hours. Depending on my schedule, I may only be able to check my e-mail once or twice a week. By the time I see the confirmation notice, it has expired and I have to start all over or say "to hell with your list." >From the subscriber's standpoint, non-expiring confirmation messages (or messages expiring in 30 days) would be easier to deal with. From the mail bomb victim's standpoint, it shouldn't make any difference, since s/he wouldn't get any mail until/unless s/he confirmed. Does it make a difference from the list manager's perspective? BTW, and forgive my ignorance, given that confirmation commands follow pretty standard formats (and can be obtained by anyone just be requesting to be subscribed), couldn't the creep who is subscribing a victim to unwanted lists just send confirm commands to the list-managers in the victim's name 24 hours after requesting the subscriptions? If not (meaning that the confirm command can come only from the new subscriber's address), why can't a list manager only accept subscription requests that originate from the same address that the subscription is to be sent to? GK From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 21:00:58 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA03957; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:49:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [204.62.130.147]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id UAA03830 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13333 invoked from network); 4 Nov 1997 04:48:30 -0000 Received: from localhost.hyperreal.com (HELO brianb.organic.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.hyperreal.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 1997 04:48:30 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971103204651.009e8100@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 20:46:51 -0800 To: bish@azstarnet.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: Funny "bounce" message from Italy In-Reply-To: <199710311750.KAA14985@mailhost.azstarnet.com> References: <199710310900.BAA23038@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk 1) it's isreal. 2) the message came from qmail, lots of sites have this. As a human being, wouldn't you rather see this than sendmail's message? :) Brian At 10:50 AM 10/31/97 +0000, Bob & Lauren wrote: > The seem to have a sense of humor. Here's an excerpt: > >> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at mx13.netvision.net.il. >> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. >> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. >> >> : >> 194.90.1.108 does not like recipient. >> Remote host said: 550 ... User unknown >> Giving up. > >...Bob > > --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "it's a big world, with lots of records to play."-sig brian@hyperreal.org From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 21:14:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA01057; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from grinch.whoville.leftbank.com (grinch.leftbank.com [139.167.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id UAA01027 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:29:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from zax.whoville.leftbank.com by grinch.whoville.leftbank.com via smtpd (for honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) with SMTP; 4 Nov 1997 04:29:03 UT Received: from horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com (horton.whoville.leftbank.com [139.167.32.35]) by zax.leftbank.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/LeftBank-1.1/http://www.leftbank.com/) with ESMTP id XAA07155; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:31:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from nmehl@localhost) by horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/http://www.LeftBank.Com) id XAA29655; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:26:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19971103232646.24474@leftbank.com> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:26:46 -0500 From: "Nathan J. Mehl" To: bish@azstarnet.com Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Funny "bounce" message from Italy References: <199710310900.BAA23038@honor.greatcircle.com> <199710311750.KAA14985@mailhost.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85 In-Reply-To: <199710311750.KAA14985@mailhost.azstarnet.com>; from Bob & Lauren on Fri, Oct 31, 1997 at 10:50:21AM +0000 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of Bob & Lauren (bish@azstarnet.com): > The seem to have a sense of humor. Here's an excerpt: > > > Hi. This is the qmail-send program at mx13.netvision.net.il. > > I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. > > This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. Oh dear lord. That's not an unusual bounce at all. That's just qmail. Probably the 2nd or 3rd most popular freeware unix MTA out there. Very surprising that you haven't seen it before. http://www.qmail.org/ -n -- The life of a sysadmin is always intense! Nathan J. Mehl --- The LeftBank Operation nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com A Global Internet Company. http://www.gi.net From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 21:29:27 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA10031; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:18:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id VAA09974 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:18:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id VAA15519; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 10624 invoked by uid 500); 4 Nov 1997 05:17:27 -0000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Funny "bounce" message from Italy References: <199710311750.KAA14985@mailhost.azstarnet.com> From: Russ Allbery In-Reply-To: "Bob & Lauren"'s message of Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:50:21 +0000 Date: 03 Nov 1997 21:17:27 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bob & Lauren writes: > The seem to have a sense of humor. Here's an excerpt: >> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at mx13.netvision.net.il. I'm >> afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following >> addresses. This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't >> work out. That's a standard qmail bounce message. They all look like that. :) The bounce format is descriped in RFCQSBMF in the qmail distribution and is designed to be much more human-readable and friendly while retaining machine parseability. BTW, .il is Israel, not Italy (.it). -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 21:35:42 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA27524; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:04:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from grinch.whoville.leftbank.com (grinch.leftbank.com [139.167.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id UAA27488 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:04:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from zax.whoville.leftbank.com by grinch.whoville.leftbank.com via smtpd (for honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) with SMTP; 4 Nov 1997 04:03:55 UT Received: from horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com (horton.whoville.leftbank.com [139.167.32.35]) by zax.leftbank.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/LeftBank-1.1/http://www.leftbank.com/) with ESMTP id XAA06927; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:06:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from nmehl@localhost) by horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/http://www.LeftBank.Com) id XAA29623; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:01:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19971103230138.55566@leftbank.com> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:01:38 -0500 From: "Nathan J. Mehl" To: Adam Bailey Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Invalid Email addresses in InterNIC whois database References: <199711040300.VAA23562@quilla.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85 In-Reply-To: <199711040300.VAA23562@quilla.tezcat.com>; from Adam Bailey on Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 09:00:50PM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of Adam Bailey (adamb@tezcat.com): > > Of course, there are cases where the phone number and/or address are > clearly fake/nonexistent. They should at least do something about that. At least in the case of phone numbers, I'm not so sure. We've probably all had at least one run-in with a random creep, psycho or stalker on the net. (Does the name John Grubor ring any bells?) Putting that information out there is not necessarily a good thing. -n, who set the phone number for the blank.org contact info to 617-936-1234 for a reason. -- The life of a sysadmin is always intense! Nathan J. Mehl --- The LeftBank Operation nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com A Global Internet Company. http://www.gi.net From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 22:29:08 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA20919; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:21:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from chiba.netxn.com (chiba.netxn.com [205.180.106.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id WAA20889 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:21:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from lsk (bak-ppp-4c.netxn.com [205.180.106.165]) by chiba.netxn.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA19915 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:27:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <345EBEE5.EE02BEB3@netxn.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 22:21:25 -0800 From: Linda Kennedy Organization: Linda Kennedy X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Building links to Articles in Archives on list X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I am Linda and I am new to the list manager's list. I have been running an author's list for about 3 months so bear with me please. I am a real newbie (AAAARGH! I hate that word) at list management. My question: What is the secret formula for building links on our site to individual stories on my majordomo server. I know I have seen this done. Have any of you seasoned professionals accomplished this seemingly elusive task. It seems there must be a simple formula for this as it must be needed all the time. It does not make sense to use space on two different servers just in order to build links directly to a specific article. It never occurred to me that this would be a problem but I have spent the better part of 3 days trying to figure it out. Any help will be appreciated. After three months of articles, I foresee a cutting and pasting nightmare. Thank you, and I am enjoying the list even though I am now paranoid about having given my real name and address when registering another domain name now. Linda Kennedy 'Bluedog Societe mismanager' mailto:lindaK@netxn.com From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 23:14:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA29273; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:10:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from sky.net (solar.sky.net [198.70.175.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id XAA29254 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:09:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sky.net.sky.net (ppp-207-193-1-55.kscymo.swbell.net [207.193.1.55]) by sky.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA25621 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:09:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971104010326.00849bc0@sky.net> X-Sender: price@sky.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 01:03:26 -0600 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Allen Rice Subject: Re: sunyjefferson.edu In-Reply-To: <3458AB3A.8BB@mail.execpc.com> References: <199710300834.AA15211@jive.rahul.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 09:43 AM 10/30/97 -0600, the following was written by Gillam Kerley: <-<-<-<-<-<-Start of Quoted Material >BTW, and forgive my ignorance, given that confirmation commands follow >pretty standard formats (and can be obtained by anyone just be >requesting to be subscribed), couldn't the creep who is subscribing a >victim to unwanted lists just send confirm commands to the list-managers >in the victim's name 24 hours after requesting the subscriptions? <-<-<-<-<-<-End of Quoted Material Coming out of lurk mode to jump on the thread... Almost every confirmation I have seen has included a unique key code, or serial number that must be included somewhere in the message. The mail bomber wouldn't have pre-existing knowledge of what the key code will be, and never will unless he is on the receiving end of the confirmation message, in which case he would be subscribing himself. That's why the bomber can not fully complete the subscription process. His lack of that special key prevents the confirmation from going through. Personally I like that. As for the expiration date of the confirmation notices being too short, I think 24 hours is enough. I've been on the net for three years now and have subbed and unsubbed to a ton of different lists. I've rarely had a confirmation message come to me later than ten minutes after I send the sub command to the server. (In fact, I recall thinking that the half hour I waited to get notice back from Great Circle was an unbareable length of time. Why is Great Circle so slow???) In my opinion, if a person has the desire to send the subscription command, he should have the patience to stick around long enough to get the reply back and confirm it. If they can't do that, then I don't think they even should consider being on a list. Just my opinion, remember? I'll return to lurkmode now. Paul ------------------------------------------------------------ (o)(o) Paul Allen Rice > Listowner: CircleJoke and Underground Mailing Lists \/ Homepage: ------------------------------------------------------------ "We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." --Robert Wilensky, University of California ------------------------------------------------------------ Support the anti-Spam amendment, go to http://www.cauce.org ------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 3 23:59:30 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA07931; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:50:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (kristeva.postmodern.com [198.102.244.54]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id XAA07896 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [198.102.244.52]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-960422) with ESMTP id XAA28010; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:50:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <345ED3E6.B5BED132@postmodern.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 23:55:23 -0800 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: Paul Allen Rice Subject: Great Circle server slowness (was Re: sunyjefferson.edu) References: <199710300834.AA15211@jive.rahul.net> <3.0.5.32.19971104010326.00849bc0@sky.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Paul Allen Rice wrote: > I've rarely had a > confirmation message come to me later than ten minutes after I send the sub > command to the server. (In fact, I recall thinking that the half hour I > waited to get notice back from Great Circle was an unbareable length of > time. Why is Great Circle so slow???) Basically, the greatcircle.com server runs with a pretty decent load grinding through mailing list stuff, as well as serving up Web (we plan to separate those in the future), and we have things set so that Majordomo won't run new jobs if the load average is over some threshold, thus a delay for subscription processing and associated matters at peak periods. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 4 05:14:08 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA03036; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 04:45:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.launch.net ([208.225.168.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id EAA02985 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 04:45:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from jimw.airmail.net [206.66.11.231] by mail.launch.net (SMTPD32-4.02) id A8BA7B013E; Tue, 04 Nov 1997 07:44:42 EST Reply-To: "Jim Whitesell" From: "Jim Whitesell" To: "List Managers" Subject: looking for list server Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:46:16 -0600 Message-ID: <01bce91f$a49f69e0$e70b42ce@jimw.airmail.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk For the past 3 years I've been running 4 or 5 small lists through a dial-up UUCP account. The UUCP account was provided by an individual that no longer offers the service to me. I'm looking for a kind soul who would be willing to talk about hosting these lists for me. I don't have the ability to pay a fee for the service, though. Are you aware of someone who might be willing to help out? Regards, Jim Whitesell http://www.launch.net From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 4 06:45:01 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA13675; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:30:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id GAA13661 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:30:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa28818; 4 Nov 97 6:30 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 04 Nov 97 06:28:40 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Building links to Articles in Archives on list From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: <40DNFe1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 97 06:04:26 PST In-Reply-To: <345EBEE5.EE02BEB3@netxn.com> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Linda Kennedy writes: > Hello, > I am Linda and I am new to the list manager's list. Oh, boy, this one has troubles, all right, and linking is the least of them. Some background. She came into Nerdnosh after the heavy lifting, the planning and the implementation, had been going on for six years. She caused a series of odd childish uproars and then she quit in a public snit. She then proceeded to set up a copycat travesty of the Nosh, ripping off the format, scheme, even the very text from the Nosh. Not even her marketing is original; she leeches from my members. Now, I have more pride and a touch more creativity than to be satisfied with a mindless clone, and anyone with more soul than the average hyena would agree with me. Consequently I expect this forum to respond to this plea with all the assistance she so richly deserves. You offer too much help, and she may well visit your site to see what isn't nailed down. The subject is ripoffs of energy and ideas, and it's relevent here, just as is spamming and any other form of theft. I now return you to your more worthwhile pursuits, which do not include aiding and abetting a ripoff non-artist. Tim Bowden mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org the command: subscribe nerdnosh From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 4 08:17:22 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA29379; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:11:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexus.pigsfly.com ([207.226.181.210]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id IAA29362 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:11:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from pslfl3-36.gate.net ([199.227.20.163]) by nexus.pigsfly.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-40113U100L100S0) with SMTP id AAA216 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:14:35 +0000 From: jtlist@pigsfly.com (Jerry Trowbridge) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Anyone else running software.com Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 16:11:55 GMT Organization: Flying Pig Ranch Reply-To: jtlist@pigsfly.com Message-ID: <34624869.3157980@pop.pigsfly.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am running post.office from software.com. In accordance with the guidelines for this list, I am not attempting to start an extensive application-specific thread...I'm really looking for a pointer to a list or Usenet group where likeminded folks hang out... The software house itself does not run a list. If there is no such list, we might volunteer to run one if there's interest. Jerry Trowbridge --at the Flying Pig Ranch From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 4 08:30:16 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA27186; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:55:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from chiba.netxn.com (chiba.netxn.com [205.180.106.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id HAA27089 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from lsk (bak-ppp-5d.netxn.com [205.180.106.182]) by chiba.netxn.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA04000; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:01:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <345F455D.F370C9C8@netxn.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 07:55:09 -0800 From: Linda Kennedy Organization: Linda Kennedy X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bowden CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Building links to Articles in Archives on list X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <40DNFe1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Tim Bowden wrote: > > Linda Kennedy writes: > > > Hello, > > I am Linda and I am new to the list manager's list. > > Oh, boy, this one has troubles, all right, and linking is the least of > them. Some background. > > She came into Nerdnosh after the heavy lifting, the planning and the > implementation, had been going on for six years. She caused a series of > odd childish uproars and then she quit in a public snit. She then > proceeded to set up a copycat travesty of the Nosh, ripping off the > format, scheme, even the very text from the Nosh. Not even her > marketing is original; she leeches from my members. > > Now, I have more pride and a touch more creativity than to be satisfied > with a mindless clone, and anyone with more soul than the average hyena > would agree with me. Consequently I expect this forum to respond to > this plea with all the assistance she so richly deserves. You offer too > much help, and she may well visit your site to see what isn't nailed > down. > > The subject is ripoffs of energy and ideas, and it's relevent here, just > as is spamming and any other form of theft. I now return you to your > more worthwhile pursuits, which do not include aiding and abetting a > ripoff non-artist. > > Tim Bowden > > mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) > Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! > mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org > the command: subscribe nerdnosh Tim, This is not the time nor the place. Get a grip. You opened the door with this same kind of satire. Is this what the List manager's list is all about (question addressed to other's)? I shall not comment any further in this format to such rantings. Does anyone wish address my original question? Linda From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 4 08:59:55 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA05949; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:53:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from allenpress.com (gopher.allenpress.com [204.52.204.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id IAA05833 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:52:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from renee.allenpress.com by allenpress.com with SMTP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA10313; Tue, 4 Nov 97 10:52:34 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971104105359.0090e210@ap-cov.allenpress.com> X-Sender: rrosen@ap-cov.allenpress.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 10:53:59 -0600 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, ListMom-Talk@SkyList.Net From: Renee Rosen Subject: visual representation of a mailing list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is kind of an odd question I know, but what would you use for a visual representation of a mailing list? I'm redoing the company webpage, and I need an image for our page of mailing list services. The photo I have on there now isn't really appropriate (and will be replaced soon), but it's the size that the picture needs to be (216x160, with a 16 pixel black border). I'm looking for something that I can get an image of fairly quickly (i.e., take a photo or screen capture). I tried email, but it didn't look very exciting, plus I already have a black text on white screen effect for the SGML page. If you want to see the layout of my page, it's at under "Electronic Publishing." The server it's on is on my own machine and has a limited license, so if you get a "busy signal," try back later. Any suggestions or ideas would be most appreciated! If you think this is too off-topic, feel free to answer me off-list. Thanks! ************************************************************ Renee Rosen email: rrosen@allenpress.com, Electronic Publishing rrosen@lists.allenpress.com Allen Press, Inc. voice: 785-843-1234 1041 New Hampshire St. url: http://www.allenpress.com Lawrence, KS 66044 ************************************************************ From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 4 09:14:42 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA08225; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:08:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id JAA08199 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:08:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 28861 invoked from network); 4 Nov 1997 17:08:42 -0000 Received: from dave.armchair.mb.ca (HELO dave) (198.163.115.50) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 4 Nov 1997 17:08:42 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971104111226.00bd2c30@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 11:12:26 -0600 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: Building links to Articles in Archives on list In-Reply-To: <40DNFe1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> References: <345EBEE5.EE02BEB3@netxn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 06:04 AM 11/4/97 PST, Tim Bowden wrote: >Linda Kennedy writes: > >> Hello, >> I am Linda and I am new to the list manager's list. >She came into Nerdnosh [...,] caused a series of >odd childish uproars and then she quit in a public snit. She then >proceeded to set up a copycat travesty of the Nosh [...] > >Now, I have more pride and a touch more creativity than to be satisfied >with a mindless clone, and anyone with more soul than the average hyena >would agree with me. I indeed have less soul than the average hyena, but at least I recognize and accept that lists split and get cloned all the time. Just a few weeks ago, for example, a fellow got pissed that the content wasn't following the lines he wanted, so he created a clone of one my busier lists. Does that hurt me? Not at all. In fact, when another list member asked about it, I posted an announcement about his list on my list and subcribed to it myself. If his list turns out better than mine and replaces it, more power to him; it would certainly save me some work. If his list is worse, it will die. Most likely, I suspect his list will find a different audience, and will ultimately serve a different purpose. All of these things are fine. If the issue is violation of copyright law, that's something else entirely. However, I question whether a list concept is copyrightable or not. If it isn't, learn to live with the "clone". In the business world, it's called "competition." As for the original question about searchable archives, here's what I did: I set up a Windows NT machine (already used for other things) with Microsoft Internet Server and Microsoft Index Server. Then I installed the freeware EMWAC mail transfer agent on the NT box. I set up a mail account on the NT box for each list I wished to index, and subscribed the mail accounts to the daily digests of my lists. By design, EMWAC stores the incoming digests in a directory. In the wee hours of the morning, the NT "at" facility wakes up a utility that I wrote, which reads the digests stored by EMWAC and converts each message to an individual HTML file in a destination directory. This allows the messages to automatically be indexed by Microsoft Index Server. Finally, I modifed the canned HTML that came with MS Index Server, and stamped it "finished." An example can be seen at http://www2.armchair.mb.ca/wings. While by no means the fanciest or slickest searchable archive, it was the best solution given the resources available. Prior to using this method, I used Glimpse running on a Linux machine, but found it consumed all available memory during reindexing, as well as using up hard drive space needed for something else. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 4 09:59:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA16251; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:55:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexus.pigsfly.com ([207.226.181.210]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id JAA16211 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:54:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1Cust16.max5.miami.fl.ms.uu.net ([153.34.119.144]) by nexus.pigsfly.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-40113U100L100S0) with SMTP id AAA259; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:57:41 +0000 From: jtlist@pigsfly.com (Jerry Trowbridge) To: appel@erzo.org Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Invalid Email addresses in InterNIC whois database Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 17:55:01 GMT Organization: Flying Pig Ranch Reply-To: jtlist@pigsfly.com Message-ID: <345f5f99.9093025@pop.pigsfly.com> References: <199711040141.BAA16704@erzo.org> In-Reply-To: <199711040141.BAA16704@erzo.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:41:27 -0800, Shannon Appel wrote: >How exactly do you expect Internic to verify postal addresses and >phone numbers? As has been said, phone numbers are nice, but a valid email address is the biggest problem for me. Increasingly, we're finding not only the obvious bogus nohost.com type stuff, but also administrative contacts who wind up in the record because some provider put them there without telling them they've done so, or explaining what responsibilities might come in the package. I wouldn't mind an auto-generated message once a month or so from internic to my listed email address sending us a copy of all the internic records for which we're responsible and asking us to make any changes if they are necessary. A bounce could then be followed up by internic through more automated processes and, finally by a real live human being (TM). Ultimately, a bogus or non-responsive set of contacts could result in said RLHB making the records inactive...which would certainly get the attention of any active domain. Internic certainly bills enough to do this...one class action suit currently claims they're charging $35.00 of their fees for a slush fund to generally aid the internet. I can't think of a better way to aid the internet than to help all of us that spend too many hours running down bogus, clueless, and broken domains, many of which are bad on their face. Jerry Trowbridge --at the Flying Pig Ranch From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 4 10:17:58 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA12914; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:34:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from Thinkage.On.CA (thinkage.thinkage.on.ca [192.102.11.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id JAA12765 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (kgdykes@localhost) by thinkage (8.7.1(8.6.4)/Thinkage960219) id LAA02252; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:51:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:51:15 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Dykes Message-Id: <199711041651.LAA02252@Thinkage.On.CA> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: netcom bogus email addresses [user@[internal].ix.netcom.com] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk the answer netcom customer support gave you about your address showing up in the form of username@[internal-machine-name].ix.netcom.com is so full of bullshit, i'm amazed such a tall pile of crap hasnt toppled on them. i'm going to forward this discussion to the Mailing-List Managers discussion list to see what they think. Perhaps i'm naively out-to-lunch in believing that email addresses should be consistent and replyable. ask her (Lucy) to spell out "which headers" rather than saying obliquely "the headers" such vague non-specific answers are the bastion of help desks that know not what is going on. my software will give priority to "Reply-To" over "From". but your messages do not have Reply-To (or at least your message today did not). and if it happens to be the "Return-Path:" header she refers, then she is smoking good shit. That is not a header for client software to use. Her implication that it is the mailing-list software at fault is nasty at best. standard unix berkeley Mail and other mail client programs will use that same *useless* address from netcom if you do a 'reply' email function. secondly her implication that there is 'nothing they can do' about it is shear raving bunny doodoo. address rewriting at the gateway is done commonly all over the world to make addresses conform to a company-standard rather than reflect the internal topology of a private network. thirdly, they are in violation of an RFC or two about email and the internet. those very same random internal-machine addresses are NOT REPLYABLE and get bounced emails if they are used for replies. All email injected into the internet is supposed to have a replyable address. And to put the ONUS onto the innocent naive users of their service to configure a proper "Reply-To" address is also fecal. their software should test for the presence of the Reply-To, and if it is not there, then their gateway software should add/generate a valid one -- assuming their claim/belief that such a header is *so* necessary has any basis in reality. leave netcom. their incompetence is overshadowing AOL. hell, i'll even suspend my ban on aol subscriptions if you wish to use aol. -ken postmaster@thinkage.on.ca >Message-ID: <345E9348.595D@popd.ix.netcom.com> >Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:15:21 -0800 >From: Some User >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: Ken Dykes - Immoderator >Subject: Ken - Care to comment on this? >Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------34126ED74F67" > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >--------------34126ED74F67 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Ken, >I have been bitching at Netcom to try and get them to straighten out >their problems with return addresses. I received this today. Thought >you might like to comment on this. Feel free to respond direct to >Netcom as well. > >--------------34126ED74F67 >Content-Type: message/rfc822 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Disposition: inline > >Return-Path: >Message-Id: <199711040518.VAA15101@scotch.corp.netcom.com> >Subject: Re: NETCOM announcement >To: xxx@ix.netcom.com (Some User) >Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:18:43 -0800 (PST) >In-Reply-To: <345D3BD2.3CD0@popd.ix.netcom.com> from "Some User" at Nov 2, 97 06:49:54 pm >From: support@ix.netcom.com (NETCOM Technical Support) > >Some User writes: >> Return-Path: >> Message-ID: <345D3BD2.3CD0@popd.ix.netcom.com> >> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 18:49:54 -0800 >> From: Some User >> To: support@ix.netcom.com >> Subject: Re: NETCOM announcement >> References: <199710301305.SAA08993@ixmail2.ix.netcom.com> >> >> netcom-news@netcom.com wrote: >> > >> > >> > Dear Netcom Customer, >> > >> > We are pleased to inform you that Netcom has entered into a merger >> > agreement with ICG Communications, Inc... >> >> Great, now tell me when you're going to fix the problem with outgoing >> email addresses and I'll care. >> >> xxx@ix.netcom.com or >> xxx@ix5.netcom.com or >> xxx@ix12.netcom.com or >> xxx@ix21.netcom.com or >> xxx@ix32.netcom.com ? which is it today? >> > >Dear Some, > >Thank you for contacting NETCOM Technical Support. > >Your email address should be as you listed above: > > xxx@ix.netcom.com > >Some mailing lists have a problem with the NETCOMplete account system. >This stems from how the mailing list attributes a message to a subscribed >member. > >The NETCOMplete mail server is actually a collection of several different >machines. This means that in the headers, it will list one of the >machines which actually sent the message. All mail messages are still >listed with a return address of username@ix.netcom.com, though. > >The problem comes with how the mailing list check the sender's address. >Rather than looking at the return path of the message which would be the >username@ix.netcom.com, the list may take the actual name of the system >that sent the message and attributes this to the senders username making >it username@ix#.netcom.com. > >The username@ix#.netcom.com is different then the member list for >authorization to send the message out. As a result, it will bounce the >message back. NETCOM cannot correct this in any way. It is typically >necessary for the mailing list administrator to adjust how it reads the >senders email address. > >This problem can also occur in some third party email applications when a >return address is not specified by the sender. Please check to be sure >that you have a return address specified in your preferences area of your >mail client. > >If you have any other questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to >contact us again. > >- Lucy > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > _ _ > |_|_ |_| Email Technical Support > _ |_|_ NETCOM On-Line Communication Services, Inc. > |_| _|_| http://www.netcom.com/bin/webtech > |_| > 24-Hour Technical Support: (408) 881-1810 > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >--------------34126ED74F67-- From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 4 11:31:02 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA04503; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:24:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from chiba.netxn.com (chiba.netxn.com [205.180.106.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id LAA04295 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:23:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from lsk (bak-ppp-5d.netxn.com [205.180.106.182]) by chiba.netxn.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA10372; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:30:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <345F7636.7BB729E6@netxn.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 11:23:34 -0800 From: Linda Kennedy Organization: Linda Kennedy X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Voorhis , "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: Re: Building links to Articles in Archives on list X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <345EBEE5.EE02BEB3@netxn.com> <3.0.3.32.19971104111226.00bd2c30@armchair.mb.ca> <3.0.3.32.19971104130248.00be51b0@armchair.mb.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Voorhis wrote: > > Perhaps I am not clear on what you wish to do. Do you wish to create > Web pages that refer to individual posts, or do you wish to provide > searchable archives, or both? Both. Finding a way to refer on Bluedog's web pages directly to individual posts while not physically moving them onto our web site would be the first priority. With minimal financial resources, the cost of space and any unnecessary duplication of posts (stories) is a very real concern for me. Searchable archives?.....I'd be flyin high! Feet firmly planted on the ground, Linda 'Bluedog mismanager' Mailto:lindak@netxn.com lindak@netxn.com From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 4 11:36:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA29580; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id KAA29502 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:58:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 32627 invoked from network); 4 Nov 1997 18:59:04 -0000 Received: from dave.armchair.mb.ca (HELO dave) (198.163.115.50) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 4 Nov 1997 18:59:04 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971104130248.00be51b0@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 13:02:48 -0600 To: Linda Kennedy From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: Building links to Articles in Archives on list Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <345F6B7F.8FD1C4AE@netxn.com> References: <345EBEE5.EE02BEB3@netxn.com> <3.0.3.32.19971104111226.00bd2c30@armchair.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:37 AM 11/4/97 -0800, Linda Kennedy wrote: >My other thought on this issue is that I might be able to request that >my >server not compile these in the 'list' (not digest) area separately. I >do not >know if he has that option. At least in that way...each story would have >an >address of their own to link to manually. Perhaps I am not clear on what you wish to do. Do you wish to create Web pages that refer to individual posts, or do you wish to provide searchable archives, or both? It might be that what you're looking for is Hypermail (http://www.eit.com/software/hypermail/hypermail.html), which converts messages into Web pages. Of course, if your lists are hosted by your ISP rather than being on your own server, you'll have to convince your ISP to install and configure it. The Web pages it creates can be indexed by Glimpse or other engines local to your server, or you can simply allow the pages to be indexed by Alta-Vista and other Web searches. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 4 11:42:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA01608; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:14:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from chiba.netxn.com (chiba.netxn.com [205.180.106.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id KAA25017 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from lsk (bak-ppp-5d.netxn.com [205.180.106.182]) by chiba.netxn.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA09081; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:44:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <345F6B7F.8FD1C4AE@netxn.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 10:37:51 -0800 From: Linda Kennedy Organization: Linda Kennedy X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Voorhis CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Building links to Articles in Archives on list X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <345EBEE5.EE02BEB3@netxn.com> <3.0.3.32.19971104111226.00bd2c30@armchair.mb.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Voorhis wrote: > As for the original question about searchable archives, here's what I did: > Detailed and wonderful instructions by Mr. Voorhis were in this space. Mr. Voorhis, Thank you for your gracious response. Unfortunately I do not have the resources nor the equipment necessary to utilize the answer. I am not a major corporation. Merely a single mother with a special needs child and a hopped up 486. So, I guess it may well be cut and paste for me. I had hoped to avoid the extra work...but I am not a stranger to hard work and don't mind working within my means. My other thought on this issue is that I might be able to request that my server not compile these in the 'list' (not digest) area separately. I do not know if he has that option. At least in that way...each story would have an address of their own to link to manually. Linda Kennedy 'Bluedog Societe mismanager' mailto:lindak@netxn.com From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 4 13:06:01 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA11045; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:59:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from sportsurf.net (sportsurf.net [192.41.36.58]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id LAA10971 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.204.56.156] (sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156]) by sportsurf.net (8.8.5) id MAA13567; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:59:19 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711041959.MAA13567@sportsurf.net> Subject: Re: Building links to Articles in Archives on list Date: Tue, 4 Nov 97 16:09:04 -0000 x-sender: mark@sportsurf.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Mark Rauterkus To: "Linda Kennedy" , "Dave Voorhis" cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, There are two strong workarounds that come to mind here. I wouldn't mind starting a thread either... Reactions welcomed. #1. A searchable archive is nice, but aggressive FAQ authoring and of course, making that FAQ document available, can squash most of the need for a searchable archive. I'd suggest an auto-reply FAQ as a great way to start. Mention that document in your welcome messages and let people know whenever it gets updated. Putting one FAQ onto a www site (one per list) is a snap too. It is much better than making the whole blasted list web-residing. #2. Then there are other services, for free, that can help with the searchable archives too: Findmail.com Reference.com Listz.com -------------- Mark Rauterkus, Publisher, S.S.S. http://www.sportsurf.net mrauterkus@sportsurf.net http://www.SportSurf.Net/FootNotes FootNotes: Mac E-book authoring and distribution environment with built-in multi-media, lan, web, internet and e-mail capabilities. -------------- From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 5 17:31:54 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA08109; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:59:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id QAA08099 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:59:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from gb1-rio.rio.nutecnet.com.br (gb1-rio.rio.nutecnet.com.br [200.240.31.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id CAA17995 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:46:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from sharon.rio.nutecnet.com.br (sharon.rio.nutecnet.com.br [200.240.31.87]) by gb1-rio.rio.nutecnet.com.br (8.8.5/SCA-6.6) with SMTP id LAA15121 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:42:48 GMT Message-Id: <199711041142.LAA15121@gb1-rio.rio.nutecnet.com.br> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Daniel Marques" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:42:20 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Majordomo on another machine Reply-to: dmarques@rio.nutecnet.com.br X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I'm running Majordomo for 4 months, and it never gave me problems. Now I want to change Majordomo to another server, the problem is that I already have some lists running under the address "list@rio.nutecnet.com.br" and if I change it to another server called gb4-rio, that isn't the primary server for my domain, my users will receive a "reply-to" field like this: "list@gb4-rio.rio.nutecnet.com.br". Do you know how I can change that ? Thanks ! --- Daniel Marques NutecNet Rio http://www.rio.nutecnet.com.br Administrador do Sistema - dmarques@rio.nutecnet.com.br Tel: 55-21-5151155 Fax: 55-21-5151144 Av Presidente Vargas 3.131 sala 503 Teleporto Cep 22210-030 - Rio de Janeiro - Rj - Brasil From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 12 14:29:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA25476; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:23:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from leslie.mystery.com (leslie.mystery.com [198.202.235.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id OAA25357 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:22:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from angus.mystery.com (gabe@angus.mystery.com [198.202.235.1]) by leslie.mystery.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA09576 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:23:22 -0500 Received: (from gabe@localhost) by angus.mystery.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15911 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:23:21 -0500 From: Gabe Helou Message-Id: <199711122223.RAA15911@angus.mystery.com> Subject: Pro-Spammers mailing list To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:23:21 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: gabe@mystery.com X-URL: http://www.mystery.com/~gabe/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm still deciding whether I'm amused or annoyed . . . From: MarketServ Consumer Relations Subject: NEW: AdNetwork - Pro-Bulk Mail Listserver ADNETWORK on join-adnetwork@marketserv.com AdNetwork - The Bulk Email Advertising Support Forum on MarketServ.Com AdNetwork is an unmoderated discussion list for those in support bulk email, aka email SPAM or commercial email advertising. It is also a list that welcome opens advertisements to the general interest, UNLESS it is political or adult content. This is not a group that supports USENET cross-posting habits. The creation and maintainance of this list does not signify that we practice bulk mail advertisements on our domain or through our ISPs. The simple operation of this listserver does not violate our TOS and AUA for our ISP nor our domain-hosting ISP. This is a PRO-bulk email listserver. Any individuals causing trouble or posting negative attitudes toward commerical email are considered in violation of the acceptable posting policy, and their ISP systems admin will be notified of their misposting and abuses to our listserver. Termination will also occur immediately. Advertising is permitted, if not welcomed! We do not allow posting by non-subscribers, and if this is attempted at any time we will contact your systems admin of your ISP with your abuse(s). NOTE: This list is ad-hoc. Material for discussion is not provided by the list manager/owner. To join the AdNetwork List, send a message addressed to: join-adnetwork@marketserv.com with NOTHING in the subject or header necessary. There is NO digest version or archive. You will recieve via automessaging our listserver rules and guidelines. Contact the owner with any questions: Owner: Jon Hulett listmaster@marketserv.com MarketServ Domain Admin From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 12 19:42:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA00579; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:42:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from almond.elite.net (almond.elite.net [205.199.220.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id TAA00572 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:42:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from almond.elite.net (ddave@almond.elite.net [205.199.220.5]) by almond.elite.net (8.8.3/ELITE) with SMTP id TAA00786 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:43:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:43:18 -0800 (PST) From: Dave/WebMaster X-Sender: ddave@almond.elite.net To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Pro-Spammers mailing list In-Reply-To: <199711122223.RAA15911@angus.mystery.com> Message-ID: X-NoArchive: yes X-SPAM: SPAM me and die! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Gabe Helou wrote: > I'm still deciding whether I'm amused or annoyed . . . > > From: MarketServ Consumer Relations > Subject: NEW: AdNetwork - Pro-Bulk Mail Listserver > > ADNETWORK on join-adnetwork@marketserv.com [...] > Advertising is permitted, if not welcomed! We do not allow posting > by non-subscribers, and if this is attempted at any time we will > contact your systems admin of your ISP with your abuse(s). Hmmm... A closed list. Guess they don't want anyone to SPAM them. :-) I propose we all join and post the UCE that is lining our inboxes. I don't see mention that it has to be your own personal advertising. Of course, it wouldn't take much to personalize a bunch of SPAM. ;) Regards, Dave/WebMaster Join www.cauce.org | Join Joke-L Help ban SPAM on the Internet | Listserv `````````````````````````````````````````````````` confirmed nukes... From owner-list-managers-list Thu Nov 13 10:14:43 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA12127; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:49:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexus.pigsfly.com (www.pigsfly.com [207.226.166.137]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id JAA11944 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:48:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from pslfl5-52.gate.net ([199.227.131.52]) by nexus.pigsfly.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-40113U100L100S0) with SMTP id AAA181; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:52:49 +0000 From: jtlist@pigsfly.com (Jerry Trowbridge) To: Dave/WebMaster Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Pro-Spammers mailing list Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:50:09 GMT Organization: Flying Pig Ranch Reply-To: jtlist@pigsfly.com Message-ID: <346e3d18.2775240@pop.pigsfly.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:43:18 -0800 (PST), Dave/WebMaster wrote: >Hmmm... A closed list. Guess they don't want anyone to SPAM them. :-) I >propose we all join and post the UCE that is lining our inboxes. I don't >see mention that it has to be your own personal advertising. Of course, >it wouldn't take much to personalize a bunch of SPAM. ;) >From my read, it looks like they like spam just fine, as long as its not prurient or political, so I don't think they'd take too kindly to cauce.org postings. I was particularly amused by the disclaimers. It sounded like an announcement for a Communist Party meeting in the 1930s. There doesn't seem to be any prohibition against religious postings. Anyone for the "church of the anti-spam?" - Jerry Trowbridge --at the Flying Pig Ranch From owner-list-managers-list Thu Nov 13 14:59:03 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA02404; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:43:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id OAA26053 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:09:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailnfs0.tiac.net (mailnfs0.tiac.net [199.0.65.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id LAA14152 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from imail.safety1st.com ([206.119.32.177]) by mailnfs0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with SMTP id OAA23931 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:54:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccMail by imail.safety1st.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.02 Enterprise) id 0A10D480; Wed, 8 Nov 95 15:04:24 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:57:20 -0500 Message-ID: <0A10D480.@safety1st.com> From: rgarraud@safety1st.com (Ron Garraud) Subject: help To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I sent the first email by mistake. Here's the problem: Users had no problem to subscribe to the baan list. But whenever I tried to send a message to baan@safety1st.com; the message did not go out to the list members. Is it a misconfiguration issue? Thanks for your help. Ron From owner-list-managers-list Thu Nov 13 15:05:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA02673; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:44:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id OAA26116 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:10:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailnfs0.tiac.net (mailnfs0.tiac.net [199.0.65.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id LAA13495 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:47:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from imail.safety1st.com ([206.119.32.177]) by mailnfs0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with SMTP id OAA06147 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:47:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccMail by imail.safety1st.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.02 Enterprise) id 0A10BA40; Wed, 8 Nov 95 14:57:24 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:50:12 -0500 Message-ID: <0A10BA40.@safety1st.com> From: rgarraud@safety1st.com (Ron Garraud) Subject: Help To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, Here's my configuration: OS: hpux 10.10 MTA: Netscape Messanging Server Perl: 5.0003 majordomo: 1.94.4 majordomo.aliases: baan: "|/home/majordomo/wrapper resend -l baan baan-list" baan-list: :include:/home/majordomo/lists/baan baan-outgoing: :include:/home/majordomo/lists/baan "|/home/majordomo/wrapper archive2.pl -a -m -f /home/majordomo/lists/archive/baan/baan.archive" owner-baan: rgarraud@safety1st.com baan-owner: rgarraud@safety1st.com baan-request: rgarraud@safety1st.com baan-approval: rgarraud@safety1st.com baan.config: # admin_passwd [word] (baan.admin) # The password for handling administrative tasks on the list. admin_passwd = # administrivia [bool] (yes) # Look for administrative requests (e.g. subscribe/unsubscribe) and # forward them to the list maintainer instead of the list. administrivia = yes # advertise [regexp_array] (undef) # If the requestor email address matches one of these regexps, #then # the list will be listed in the output of a lists command. Failure # to match any regexp excludes the list from the output. The # regexps under noadvertise override these regexps. advertise << END END # announcements [bool] (yes) # If set to yes, comings and goings to the list will be sent to the # list owner. These SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE event announcements are # informational only (no action is required), although it is highly # recommended that they be monitored to watch for list abuse. announcements = yes # approve_passwd [word] (baan.pass) # Password to be used in the approved header to allow posting to # moderated list, or to bypass resend checks. approve_passwd = baan.pass # archive_dir [absolute_dir] (undef) # The directory where the mailing list archive is kept. This item # does not currently work. Leave it blank. archive_dir = # comments [string_array] (undef) # Comment string that will be retained across config file rewrites. comments << END END # date_info [bool] (yes) # Put the last updated date for the info file at the top of the # info file rather than having it appended with an info command. # This is useful if the file is being looked at by some means other # than majordomo (e.g. finger). date_info = yes # date_intro [bool] (yes) # Put the last updated date for the intro file at the top of the # intro file rather than having it appended with an intro command. # This is useful if the file is being looked at by some means other # than majordomo (e.g. finger). date_intro = yes # debug [bool] (no) # Don't actually forward message, just go though the motions. debug = no # description [string] (undef) # Used as description for mailing list when replying to the lists # command. There is no quoting mechanism, and there is only room # for 50 or so characters. description = # digest_archive [absolute_dir] (undef) # The directory where the digest archive is kept. This item does # not currently work. Leave it blank. digest_archive = # digest_issue [integer] (1) # The issue number of the next issue digest_issue = 1 # digest_maxdays [integer] (undef) # automatically generate a new digest when the age of the oldest # article in the queue exceeds this number of days. digest_maxdays = # digest_maxlines [integer] (undef) # automatically generate a new digest when the size of the digest # exceeds this number of lines. digest_maxlines = # digest_name [string] (baan) # The subject line for the digest. This string has the volume and # issue appended to it. digest_name = baan # digest_rm_footer [word] (undef) # The value is the name of the list that applies the header and # footers to the messages that are received by digest. This allows # the list supplied headers and footers to be stripped before the # messages are included in the digest. This keyword is currently # non operative. digest_rm_footer = # digest_rm_fronter [word] (undef) # Works just like digest_rm_footer, except it removes the front # material. Just like digest_rm_footer, it is also non-operative. digest_rm_fronter = # digest_volume [integer] (1) # The current volume number digest_volume = 1 # digest_work_dir [absolute_dir] (undef) # The directory used as scratch space for digest. Don't change # this unless you know what you are doing digest_work_dir = # get_access [enum] (list) /open;closed;list/ # One of three values: open, list, closed. Open allows anyone # access to this command and closed completely disables the command # for everyone. List allows only list members access, or if # restrict_post is defined, only the addresses in those files are # allowed access. get_access = list # index_access [enum] (open) /open;closed;list/ # One of three values: open, list, closed. Open allows anyone # access to this command and closed completely disables the command # for everyone. List allows only list members access, or if # restrict_post is defined, only the addresses in those files are # allowed access. index_access = open # info_access [enum] (open) /open;closed;list/ # One of three values: open, list, closed. Open allows anyone # access to this command and closed completely disables the command # for everyone. List allows only list members access, or if # restrict_post is defined, only the addresses in those files are # allowed access. info_access = open # intro_access [enum] (list) /open;closed;list/ # One of three values: open, list, closed. Open allows anyone # access to this command and closed completely disables the command # for everyone. List allows only list members access, or if # restrict_post is defined, only the addresses in those files are # allowed access. intro_access = list # maxlength [integer] (40000) # The maximum size of an unapproved message in characters. When # used with digest, a new digest will be automatically generated if # the size of the digest exceeds this number of characters. maxlength = 40000 From owner-list-managers-list Thu Nov 13 15:13:36 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA06383; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:07:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (cvobku.cvo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.189.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id PAA06356 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:07:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (MX I5.0) id 25; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:08:41 -0800 Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:08:41 -0800 From: "Henry W. Miller" To: rgarraud@safety1st.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.com, henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV Message-ID: <009BD3CE.7D87AAE4.25@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Subject: RE: help Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"rgarraud@safety1st.com" "Ron Garraud" 13-NOV-1997 15:03:58.64 > To: MX%"list-managers@GreatCircle.com" > CC: > Subj: help > On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:57:20 -0500, rgarraud@safety1st.com (Ron Garraud) said: rgarraud@safety1st.com (Ron Garraud) writes: > I sent the first email by mistake. > > Here's the problem: > > Users had no problem to subscribe to the baan list. But whenever I > tried to send a message to baan@safety1st.com; the message did not go > out to the list members. > > Is it a misconfiguration issue? > Probably. > Thanks for your help. > > > Ron > Ron, You've given us absolutely nothing to go on. You'll have to provide more information. We don't usually discuss platform specific issues here, but maybe someone can steer you to the correct resource. -HWM From owner-list-managers-list Sat Nov 15 14:10:33 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA11078; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:46:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id NAA11067 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from taz.ulster.net (taz.ulster.net [208.148.73.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id SAA07942 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:45:52 -0800 (PST) From: cecb@mhv.net Received: from mhv.net (root@spice.mhv.net [199.0.0.21]) by taz.ulster.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA20620 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:47:03 -0500 Received: from default (fishkill-port14.mhv.net [205.244.248.34]) by mhv.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA10499 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:46:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199711140246.VAA10499@mhv.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:37:47 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Blocking all attachments X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I wonder if anyone here can tell me if a listowner using listserv software can completely block all email messages which contain attachments. There's a mailing list to which I belong which has ongoing problems with members who continue to send *very* large attachments (meg or more) which causes great problems to list subscribers. Could the listowner solve the problem by just bouncing *all* messages to the listserv with any attachment? Inquiring minds would like to know.... Thanks From owner-list-managers-list Sat Nov 15 14:13:49 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA10802; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:43:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id NAA10793 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from newfed.frb.gov (newfed.frb.gov [198.3.221.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id GAA09661 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:18:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from FRB.GOV (umailfwd@localhost) by newfed.frb.gov (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id IAA10837; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:27:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jmb@FRB.GOV) Received: from kryten.frb.gov by frbgate.FRB.GOV (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA09632; Thu, 13 Nov 97 08:32:03 EST Received: from localhost.frb.gov (localhost.frb.gov [127.0.0.1]) by kryten.frb.gov (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA11244; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:31:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jmb@kryten.frb.gov) Message-Id: <199711131331.IAA11244@kryten.frb.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: kryten.frb.gov: localhost.frb.gov [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Dave/WebMaster Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Pro-Spammers mailing list In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:43:18 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:31:15 -0500 From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> From: MarketServ Consumer Relations >> Subject: NEW: AdNetwork - Pro-Bulk Mail Listserver >> >> ADNETWORK on join-adnetwork@marketserv.com > >[...] >> Advertising is permitted, if not welcomed! We do not allow posting >> by non-subscribers, and if this is attempted at any time we will >> contact your systems admin of your ISP with your abuse(s). > >Hmmm... A closed list. Guess they don't want anyone to SPAM them. :-) I >propose we all join and post the UCE that is lining our inboxes. I don't >see mention that it has to be your own personal advertising. Of course, >it wouldn't take much to personalize a bunch of SPAM. ;) join using an alias for /dev/null. send them all the spam you receive. if they remove you, resubscribe under another alias for /dev/null. ;) jmb From owner-list-managers-list Sat Nov 15 14:29:08 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA11760; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id NAA11748 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailnfs0.tiac.net (mailnfs0.tiac.net [199.0.65.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id SAA29455 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:00:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from imail.safety1st.com ([206.119.32.177]) by mailnfs0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with SMTP id VAA02163 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:01:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccMail by imail.safety1st.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.02 Enterprise) id 0A4064C0; Fri, 10 Nov 95 21:11:24 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:05:32 -0500 Message-ID: <0A4064C0.@safety1st.com> From: rgarraud@safety1st.com (Ron Garraud) Subject: help To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk majordomo.aliases: baan: "|/home/majordomo/wrapper resend -l baan baan-list" baan-list: :include:/home/majordomo/lists/baan baan-outgoing: :include:/home/majordomo/lists/baan "|/home/majordomo/wrapper archive2.pl -a -m -f /home/majordomo/lists/archive/baan/baan.archive" owner-baan: rgarraud@safety1st.com baan-owner: rgarraud@safety1st.com baan-request: rgarraud@safety1st.com baan-approval: rgarraud@safety1st.com I have no problem to subscribe to the list. However, I was having problem to send mail at baan@safety1st.com. Two days later, I received the following message from the postmaster: This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason: The Program-Deliver module couldn't deliver the message to one or more of the intended recipients because their delivery program(s) failed. The following error messages provide the details about each failure: The account for baan@safety1st.com has an invalid UNIX user ID (baan) . Was it misspelled or removed? The message was not delivered to: baan@safety1st.com Please reply to Postmaster@hp-d350.safety1st.com if you feel this message to be in error. My question is: Do I need create a Unix account for each mailing list that I have created? I did not recall in the past that I had to create an Unix account for a mailing list. By the way, I'm using Netscape Messaging server. Please let me know what to do next? Thanks for your help. Ron From owner-list-managers-list Sat Nov 15 14:29:46 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA11267; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:49:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id NAA11256 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:49:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from postfree.atos.be (postfree.atos.be [195.26.64.99]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id IAA03090 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:09:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by postfree.atos.be (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15202 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:11:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from tarifa.marben.be(172.20.0.254) by postfree.atos.be via smap (V2.0) id xma015200; Fri, 14 Nov 97 17:11:22 +0100 Message-ID: <346C779F.17B3147D@atos.be> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:09:03 +0100 From: Jean-Pierre Morant Reply-To: jpm@atos.be Organization: Atos SA-NV X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP22) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Spammers are not always careful ... Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------msECEC193305486BEB77973942" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------msECEC193305486BEB77973942 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5F7AB8D2D12F1478F71A7268" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5F7AB8D2D12F1478F71A7268 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ... for instance InternetEnterprises.com that does not protect itself against relaying mail. I hate them not for sending spam but mainly 'cause they claim that a reply with remove in the body/subject will remove the user from the spam list when the originator adress is a fdake and I postmaster end up with thousand of messages "non-delivery report : invalid user" in my mailbox. Now understand me well this is just for information indeed not for retaliation .... -- Jean-Pierre Morant c/o ATOS S.A./N.V. La vie serait tellement Boulevard du Souverain,400, Vorstlaan plus facile 1160 Bruxelles Si seulement Belgium nous avions les sources.... http://www.atos.be jpm@atos.be --------------5F7AB8D2D12F1478F71A7268 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jean-Pierre Morant Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Jean-Pierre Morant n: Morant;Jean-Pierre org: ATOS SA-NV adr: 400 Bd du Souverain / Vorstlaan;;;Bruxelles / Brussel;;1160;BELGIUM email;internet: jpm@atos.be title: System Engineer tel;work: + 32 (0)2 663 1130 tel;fax: + 32 (0)2 663 1199 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE end: vcard --------------5F7AB8D2D12F1478F71A7268-- --------------msECEC193305486BEB77973942 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIKWwYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIKTDCCCkgCAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC CMkwggQPMIIDeKADAgECAhA2iyuXzOKEiRNiw4pxCaZLMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBAUAMGIxETAP BgNVBAcTCEludGVybmV0MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjE0MDIGA1UECxMrVmVy aVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBDQSAtIEluZGl2aWR1YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlcjAeFw05NzA5MDUwMDAw MDBaFw05ODAzMDcyMzU5NTlaMIIBCzERMA8GA1UEBxMISW50ZXJuZXQxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZl cmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTQwMgYDVQQLEytWZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIC0gSW5kaXZpZHVh bCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvQ1BT IEluY29ycC4gYnkgUmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk2MSYwJAYDVQQLEx1EaWdpdGFsIElEIENs YXNzIDEgLSBOZXRzY2FwZTEbMBkGA1UEAxMSSmVhbi1QaWVycmUgTW9yYW50MRowGAYJKoZI hvcNAQkBFgtqcG1AYXRvcy5iZTBcMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA0sAMEgCQQDaFLSZBXX5Df/N YFUlXb3asyQioqio+uqbvjPDYFE+/AUpcS5DOqJNxeB0UQtMf8DNwNzysZshcR1yRLTdX+Cv AgMBAAGjggFdMIIBWTAJBgNVHRMEAjAAMIGvBgNVHSAEgacwgDCABgtghkgBhvhFAQcBATCA MCgGCCsGAQUFBwIBFhxodHRwczovL3d3dy52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vQ1BTMGIGCCsGAQUFBwIC MFYwFRYOVmVyaVNpZ24sIEluYy4wAwIBARo9VmVyaVNpZ24ncyBDUFMgaW5jb3JwLiBieSBy ZWZlcmVuY2UgbGlhYi4gbHRkLiAoYyk5NyBWZXJpU2lnbgAAAAAAADARBglghkgBhvhCAQEE BAMCB4AwgYYGCmCGSAGG+EUBBgMEeBZ2ZDQ2NTJiZDYzZjIwNDcwMjkyOTg3NjNjOWQyZjI3 NTA2OWM3MzU5YmVkMWIwNTlkYTc1YmM0YmM5NzAxNzQ3ZGE1YzRlNDE0MWJlYWRiMmJkMmU4 OTIwNmFjNmFmN2Q3MTE0OTk2YTFiYTQzZjRlNTk3NjU0MTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFAAOBgQB2 mjWtSZvklgcNVoznph82+0k3mLfm8nblm7a2AW6//Rmz89WKcgjXKsflcsVl+nGvssRCfnOG rvtFaFXYTQCEZseio6V8IxVs7a881pE/PbTqzzsBBoS32fwVWThgSyqBuh7ol63JtYV0OxSs jZ5RixCEDXMm3nAGYsRIBY8sIDCCAn0wggHmoAMCAQICFHUTa1jzgGlXdaaiTVkQTZzqdkrx MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAgUAMF8xCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVTMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5j LjE3MDUGA1UECxMuQ2xhc3MgMSBQdWJsaWMgUHJpbWFyeSBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhv cml0eTAeFw05NzA2MjQwNzAwMDBaFw05OTA2MjQwNzAwMDBaMGIxETAPBgNVBAcTCEludGVy bmV0MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjE0MDIGA1UECxMrVmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3Mg MSBDQSAtIEluZGl2aWR1YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlcjCBnzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkC gYEAthSmz03QBQ3YyiPQb6q0KZJjjiz4b5bXLp12SxGxNo1XycP9HMa6/h4IujPKleq+41vN Bqi3eR1EKu1z8rFSg2gQcGSR1z5r+fddnRRDm26XRZiBR9Ety927ctdMP3Gq4kDyVDm8Fu7P fOy62z9sKrMWsYYSna6TNNW41dD3PqkCAwEAAaMzMDEwEQYJYIZIAYb4QgEBBAQDAgEGMA8G A1UdEwQIMAYBAf8CAQEwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAgUAA4GBAJIMS+m6k83/ 2uZg/Z5kA2YVL1Y8OExoSkfF86uPJdlmQ3NDFXNEvhRIgVp3DMx66tmxvPKL/xGx3xRQSNxl HQuJ+aFeSFJv7bVr9LgITDjwuYlnKQ/g4Df3puvU9NVCqV39veeefBvnT4UtBKFgLoW46+L6 7xQFJhUYVW8ToR1xMIICMTCCAZoCBQKkAAABMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAgUAMF8xCzAJBgNVBAYT AlVTMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjE3MDUGA1UECxMuQ2xhc3MgMSBQdWJsaWMg UHJpbWFyeSBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTAeFw05NjAxMjkwMDAwMDBaFw05OTEy MzEyMzU5NTlaMF8xCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVTMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjE3MDUG A1UECxMuQ2xhc3MgMSBQdWJsaWMgUHJpbWFyeSBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTCB nzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkCgYEA5Rm/baNWYS2ZSHH2Z965jeu3noaACpEO+jgl r0aIguVzqKCbJF0NH8xlbgyw0FaEGIeaBpsQoXPftFg5a27B9hXVqKg/qhIGjTGsf7A01480 Z4gJzRQR4k5FVmkfeAKA2txHkSm7NsljXMXg1y2He6G3MrB7MLoqLzGq7qNn2tsCAwEAATAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQIFAAOBgQBSc7qaVdzcP4J9sJCYYiqCTHYAbiU91cIJcFcBDA93Hxih+xxg DqB1O0khQf6nXC1MQknT/yjYjOqd/skH4neCUyPeVfPORJP6+ky9yjbzW2aynsjyDF5e1KG0 IQkzyjtZ/JLCOPyt2ZYk4C36oyn1M2h4TrS8n2k14qiYlHM7xDGCAVowggFWAgEBMHYwYjER MA8GA1UEBxMISW50ZXJuZXQxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTQwMgYDVQQLEytW ZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIC0gSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyAhA2iyuXzOKEiRNi w4pxCaZLMAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgfTAYBgkqhkiG9w0BCQMxCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcBMBwGCSqGSIb3 DQEJBTEPFw05NzExMTQxNjA5MDRaMB4GCSqGSIb3DQEJDzERMA8wDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgw IwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFMIVkuwIAssvpumQYlf2us37RMAbMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABECa E41GTUOvVYjLmp8+D2PpLF7Mt153Oz5IjPDeh8kxMn+go6+4dTVNSoqICHO4Yo6g0QZHyku1 ysKFHZaPivOn --------------msECEC193305486BEB77973942-- From owner-list-managers-list Sat Nov 15 15:16:01 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA20273; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:10:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id PAA20183 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id RAA06812 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:10:59 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711152310.RAA06812@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments Date: Sat, 15 Nov 97 17:11:27 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11/13/97 4:37 PM CST, cecb@mhv.net wrote... > I wonder if anyone here can tell me if a listowner >using listserv software can completely block all >email messages which contain attachments. Most proper MLM packages have some way to do this. It depends on what you're using. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From owner-list-managers-list Sat Nov 15 15:30:08 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA21445; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id PAA21415 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:22:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA18656 ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:24:26 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199711140246.VAA10499@mhv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:01:28 -0800 To: cecb@mhv.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:37 PM -0800 11/13/97, cecb@mhv.net wrote: > I wonder if anyone here can tell me if a listowner > using listserv software can completely block all > email messages which contain attachments. Look in majordomo.cf for $admin_body. And add in: /^Content-Disposition:.*attachment/ -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-list Sat Nov 15 15:59:16 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA23845; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:49:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id PAA23824 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:49:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chip@localhost) by mail.unicom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09047 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:51:02 -0600 (CST) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199711152351.RAA09047@mail.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:51:00 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Nov 15, 1997 03:01:28 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > Look in majordomo.cf for $admin_body. And add in: > > /^Content-Disposition:.*attachment/ Cool. Can we get something similar setup on this list to stop up those Netscape S/MIME signature turds? half :-) -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development http://www.unicom.com/ Outlaw junk email * Support CAUCE http://www.cauce.org/ Spammers ate my mail server! http://www.unicom.com/anti-relay/ From owner-list-managers-list Sat Nov 15 16:13:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA24932; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:56:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.254.96.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id PAA24911 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:55:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA04712; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:17:31 -0500 X-Sender: humour@humournet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199711140246.VAA10499@mhv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:25:05 -0500 To: cecb@mhv.net From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 16:37 -0500 11/13/97, cecb@mhv.net said: > I wonder if anyone here can tell me if a listowner >using listserv software can completely block all >email messages which contain attachments. > > There's a mailing list to which I belong which >has ongoing problems with members who continue >to send *very* large attachments (meg or more) >which causes great problems to list subscribers. > > Could the listowner solve the problem by >just bouncing *all* messages to the listserv >with any attachment? Depends on your list software. On my LISTSERV lists, I use the "sizelim" header item (set to 150 lines, which seems to work without being TOO restrictive). On my Lyris lists, I am right now in the process of developing the necessary filter texts to efficiently block ALL attachments, regardless of the number of lines in the message. (Lyris permits you to filter on "action phrases," which can trigger specific actions -- such as rejecting the attempted post and returning a custom message that says, "You idiot, we TOLD you that you weren't supposed to post attachments to the list.") I've never figured a way to do wither of these in ListProc. Majordomo has the capability, but requires doing some PERL coding. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre: vince@humournet.com HumourNet: Stop Internet Spam! Behind every successful man Behind every successful man is a is a surprised woman woman with expensive taste -- Maryon Pearson -- Vince Sabio From owner-list-managers-list Sat Nov 15 16:58:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA01495; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:56:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id QAA01488 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:56:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA28998 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:58:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA23239 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:58:09 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:58:08 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments (ListProc) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Vince Sabio wrote: > Depends on your list software. On my LISTSERV lists, I use the > "sizelim" header item (set to 150 lines, which seems to work without > being TOO restrictive). > I've never figured a way to do wither of these in ListProc. Majordomo > has the capability, but requires doing some PERL coding. For ListProc 6.xxx, add the following line to your config file: limit message 20000 # reject messages longer than 20000 bytes - murr - From owner-list-managers-list Sat Nov 15 17:58:43 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA05839; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:51:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id RAA05799 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:51:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA08604 ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:53:38 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199711140246.VAA10499@mhv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:33:10 -0800 To: Vince Sabio , cecb@mhv.net From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:25 PM -0800 11/15/97, Vince Sabio wrote: > I've never figured a way to do wither of these in ListProc. Put a front end wrapper in procmail. Gives you lots of capabilities for customizing things, without huge amounts of work. > Majordomo > has the capability, but requires doing some PERL coding. No, it doesn't. It's a couple of easy regex in the majordomo.cf. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-list Sat Nov 15 18:04:34 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA05848; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:51:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id RAA05801 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:51:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA08610 ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:53:40 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199711152351.RAA09047@mail.unicom.com> References: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Nov 15, 1997 03:01:28 PM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:35:43 -0800 To: Chip Rosenthal , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:51 PM -0800 11/15/97, Chip Rosenthal wrote: > Cool. Can we get something similar setup on this list to stop up > those Netscape S/MIME signature turds? It's actually pretty simple at one level -- I've added these to my majordomo.cf: /^Content-Type:.*image/ /^Content-Type:.*text\/html/ /^Content-Disposition:.*attachment/ The downside is it sends them to the admin, not back to the user. So I've been building filters in my procmail wrappers to trap these things and send them back with an informative message. But for those who don't have that infrastructure in place, tweaking the majordomo.cf will get them into the admin's hand where they can deal with things instead of having them posted. Just look at the headers of any message you want to trap, and you can grab the MIME headers and add them to your filter list. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-list Sat Nov 15 18:13:42 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA07765; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:10:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id SAA07740 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:10:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chip@localhost) by mail.unicom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15375; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:11:37 -0600 (CST) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199711160211.UAA15375@mail.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:11:35 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Nov 15, 1997 05:35:43 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > /^Content-Type:.*image/ > /^Content-Type:.*text\/html/ > /^Content-Disposition:.*attachment/ If these do what I think they do, consider adding: /^Content-Transfer-Encoding:.*base64/ Wouldn't that supercede all the tests except for text/html? > The downside is it sends them to the admin, not back to the user. *oof* ObNonMajordomoContent: binaries on discussion lists suck -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development http://www.unicom.com/ Outlaw junk email * Support CAUCE http://www.cauce.org/ Spammers ate my mail server! http://www.unicom.com/anti-relay/ From owner-list-managers-list Sat Nov 15 23:13:30 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA19390; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:05:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from tcp.com (tcp.com [207.126.126.64]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id XAA19376 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:05:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jlick@localhost) by tcp.com (8.8.8/8.6.10) with SMTP id XAA16155 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:07:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:07:11 -0800 (PST) From: James Lick To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > /^Content-Type:.*text\/html/ If you use this one, be aware that there is a small minority of software that sticks this in the headers even if there are no attachments and no other special encoding. One of the free email services (mailexcite.com I think?) does this. -- James Lick -- jlick@drivel.com -- http://drivel.com/jlick/ -- From owner-list-managers-list Sat Nov 15 23:18:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA19498; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:10:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id XAA19491 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:10:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA18554 ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:12:19 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199711160211.UAA15375@mail.unicom.com> References: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Nov 15, 1997 05:35:43 PM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:54:39 -0800 To: Chip Rosenthal From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:11 PM -0800 11/15/97, Chip Rosenthal wrote: > If these do what I think they do, consider adding: > > /^Content-Transfer-Encoding:.*base64/ > > Wouldn't that supercede all the tests except for text/html? Hmm. I'll have to look at that. Offhand, I dunno. > > The downside is it sends them to the admin, not back to the user. > > *oof* Yeah. That's why I'm using procmail wrappers instead, so I can write a nice, polite form letter and send it BACK, rather than forward it to an admin. The admins I know (meaning me) already have too much mail, and I hate black holes -- someone sends mail, they should get SOMETHING, even if it's an error. And unfortuantely, when admins get busy, they can become black holes, or at least molasses ones. And for users, that can be the same thing. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-list Sun Nov 16 08:13:46 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA02952; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id IAA02897 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:08:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chip@localhost) by mail.unicom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03160; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:10:18 -0600 (CST) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199711161610.KAA03160@mail.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments To: jlick@drivel.com (James Lick) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:10:18 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "James Lick" at Nov 15, 1997 11:07:11 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk James Lick writes: > [re: refusing text/html] > If you use this one, be aware that there is a small minority of software > that sticks this in the headers even if there are no attachments and no > other special encoding. One of the free email services (mailexcite.com I > think?) does this. If it's true, and if somebody can document this problem, please forward me a report. I've got a contact at Excite/Austin who may be able to route it to the person who can do something. -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development http://www.unicom.com/ Outlaw junk email * Support CAUCE http://www.cauce.org/ Spammers ate my mail server! http://www.unicom.com/anti-relay/ From owner-list-managers-list Sun Nov 16 09:58:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA11183; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:55:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.254.96.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id JAA11176 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA08701; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:56:26 -0500 X-Sender: humour@humournet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199711140246.VAA10499@mhv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:39:53 -0500 To: Chuq Von Rospach , cecb@mhv.net From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 20:33 -0500 11/15/97, Chuq Von Rospach sent everyone: >At 3:25 PM -0800 11/15/97, Vince Sabio wrote: > >> I've never figured a way to do wither of these in ListProc. > >Put a front end wrapper in procmail. Gives you lots of capabilities for >customizing things, without huge amounts of work. > >> Majordomo >> has the capability, but requires doing some PERL coding. > >No, it doesn't. It's a couple of easy regex in the majordomo.cf. Yup, these are "perspective" issues -- I've never run the servers for ListProc or Majordomo, I've just run lists on them. So my perspective is that of a list owner, not a server manager. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre: vince@humournet.com HumourNet: Stop Internet Spam! Behind every successful man Behind every successful man is a is a surprised woman woman with expensive taste -- Maryon Pearson -- Vince Sabio From owner-list-managers-list Sun Nov 16 17:58:26 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA28188; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:50:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from tcp.com (tcp.com [207.126.126.64]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id RAA28171 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:50:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jlick@localhost) by tcp.com (8.8.8/8.6.10) with SMTP id RAA22512 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:52:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:52:30 -0800 (PST) From: James Lick To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It's rocketmail.com, not mailexcite.com that puts in Content-Type headers on non-attachment mail. -- James Lick -- jlick@drivel.com -- http://drivel.com/jlick/ -- >From CENSORED@rocketmail.com Sun Nov 16 17:48:02 1997 Received: from web4.rocketmail.com (web4.rocketmail.com [205.180.57.78]) by tcp.com (8.8.8/8.6.10) with SMTP id RAA22296 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:48:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971117014548.24193.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com> Received: from [205.180.57.69] by web4; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:45:48 PST Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:45:48 -0800 (PST) From: CENSORED To: majordomo@tcp.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii subscribe clarissa-digest __________________________________________________________________ Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-list-managers-list Sun Nov 16 22:13:36 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA04589; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:59:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id VAA04582 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:59:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14284 invoked by uid 500); 17 Nov 1997 06:01:34 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Content-Type: text/plain References: From: Russ Allbery In-Reply-To: James Lick's message of Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:52:30 -0800 (PST) Date: 16 Nov 1997 22:01:34 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk James Lick writes: > It's rocketmail.com, not mailexcite.com that puts in Content-Type > headers on non-attachment mail. [...] > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii *Most* mail readers that understand MIME will label non-attachment mail with text/plain, in my experience. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 17 03:28:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA00201; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from iss.dccc.edu (iss.dccc.edu [207.103.163.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id DAA00186 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:21:44 -0800 (PST) From: drjesus@iss.dccc.edu Message-Id: <199711171121.DAA00186@honor.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Date: 17 Nov 1997 00:38:26 EDT Subject: FAQ? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Pardon me, I'm new here. Is there a FAQ for this list archived somewhere, or that someone could mail me? Rather than me asking lots of stupid questions. ;) Thanks to those who provided the tips for bouncing attachments in Majordomo, BTW. Here's to implementing that soon. NE-Raves Account Admin. Geoff Capp Prod. "Close your eyes and look at the music." -J.Devlin From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 17 06:28:46 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA06551; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 06:17:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from revnet1.revnet.com (revnet1.revnet.com [198.51.35.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id GAA06524 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 06:17:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from majestic.revnet.com (majestic.revnet.com [198.51.35.45]) by revnet1.revnet.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA29754; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:23:33 -0600 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:15:50 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCF331.03EDE280.mmead@revnet.com> From: Marc Mead Reply-To: "mmead@revnet.com" To: "'cecb@mhv.net'" , "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: RE: Blocking all attachments Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:15:45 -0600 Organization: Revnet Systems X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk GroupMaster does not allow any attachments to be sent to a discussion list for the very reason you cite. This is the default option and can be toggled on if you wish. Marc Mead http://www.revnet.com On Thursday, November 13, 1997 3:38 PM, cecb@mhv.net [SMTP:cecb@mhv.net] wrote: > I wonder if anyone here can tell me if a listowner > using listserv software can completely block all > email messages which contain attachments. > > There's a mailing list to which I belong which > has ongoing problems with members who continue > to send *very* large attachments (meg or more) > which causes great problems to list subscribers. > > Could the listowner solve the problem by > just bouncing *all* messages to the listserv > with any attachment? > > Inquiring minds would like to know.... > > Thanks > > > From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 17 08:15:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA13345; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:07:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id IAA13338 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:07:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA29906 ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:09:28 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199711171336.IAA03396@kryten.frb.gov> References: Your message of "Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:02:51 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:04:48 -0800 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Pro-Spammers mailing list Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Dave/WebMaster , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:36 AM -0800 11/17/97, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > with all due respect, i dont think you understand. I understand very well, thank you. > the model is the famous "clueless mailing list". clueless users Oh, that's an even better model. The old "make fun of the retarded" model. Sorry if I don't join the laughter. > we are not dropping to their level, we are redirecting the trash > they send us back to them. Please excuse me if I don't see it the way you do. But what's more important, don't be surprised if THEY don't -- because what you think doesn't matter if they decide it's an attack and decide to retaliate. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 18 16:57:25 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA22207; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id QAA22197 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id PAA21454 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA18668 ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:24:52 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199711131331.IAA11244@kryten.frb.gov> References: Your message of "Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:43:18 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:02:51 -0800 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Dave/WebMaster From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Pro-Spammers mailing list Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:31 AM -0800 11/13/97, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > join using an alias for /dev/null. > send them all the spam you receive. > if they remove you, resubscribe under another alias for /dev/null. All this does is encourage them to look for the lists that people are using to generate the attacks on their lists (like list-managers), and give them leave to come and attack THOSE lists. After all, you're starting it. And they have better attack tools than we do. Doesn't this simply sound like encouraging folks to drop to their level? Does to me. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 18 17:04:16 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA22194; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:46:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id QAA22184 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:46:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from taz.ulster.net (taz.ulster.net [208.148.73.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id PAA19770 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:04:43 -0800 (PST) From: cecb@mhv.net Received: from mhv.net (root@spice.mhv.net [199.0.0.21]) by taz.ulster.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA07735; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:04:58 -0500 Received: from default (fishkill-port19.mhv.net [205.244.248.39]) by mhv.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA30930; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:04:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199711152304.SAA30930@mhv.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: alancz@usa.net Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:55:41 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <01bcf218$157d4780$05c1410c@compaq> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 15 Nov 97, Alan Czarnek wrote: Re: Blocking all attachments: > > There's a mailing list to which I belong which > has ongoing problems with members who continue > to send *very* large attachments (meg or more) > >which causes great problems to list subscribers. > > > We had that problem on our lists and eliminated it > by setting the maximum size of a posting to 300 > lines........ this also discouraged people from > sending pages and pages and pages of text > that had been copy/pasted from other sources....... > > Alan Cz Alan, It's not the size of 'postings' that concerns us.....it is the size of 'attachments' We don't have a problem with the length of postings. We just want to get rid of *all* attachments. Which is why I'd like to know if a listowner can use list software to *refuse* to accept *any* message which *has* an attachment Do you know if this is possible? From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 18 17:09:48 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA22225; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:47:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id QAA22217 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:47:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from dns01.ops.usa.net (dns01.ops.usa.net [204.68.24.137]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id PAA20830 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:16:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5204 invoked by alias); 15 Nov 1997 23:18:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 5181 invoked from network); 15 Nov 1997 23:18:32 -0000 Received: from 5.houston-10.tx.dial-access.att.net (HELO compaq) (12.65.193.5) by dns01.ops.usa.net with SMTP; 15 Nov 1997 23:18:32 -0000 Reply-To: "Alan Czarnek" From: "Alan Czarnek" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:15:02 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcf21c$4cef79a0$05c1410c@compaq> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It's not the size of 'postings' that concerns us.....it is the size of 'attachments' We don't have a problem with the length of postings. We just want to get rid of *all* attachments. Which is why I'd like to know if a listowner can use list software to *refuse* to accept *any* message which *has* an attachment --------- Before I set the maximum message size to 300 lines, I looked and found nothing in the Listserv manual that let me eliminate attachments by themselves. Apparently however, the listserv uses the size of the text PLUS the size of the attachment in calculating the total size of the message. Since there are very very few attachments that are less than 300 lines (when converted to UUCode) the size limitation does the job in a round-about way. Perhaps I overlooked some command that would specifically disallow attachments. All I can say is that I looked, didn't find one, and tried to find a work-around solution. Hope this helps...... Alan Cz From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 18 17:13:59 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA22170; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:46:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id QAA22162 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:46:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mrin54.mail.aol.com (mrin54.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.164]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id MAA06702 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:07:11 -0800 (PST) From: AdamKB@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin54.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA22195; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:08:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:08:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971115150844_1980109770@mrin54.mail.aol.com> To: lstown-l@searn.sunet.se, list-managers@greatcircle.com, listmom-talk@skylist.net, aol-list-owners@listserv.aol.com Subject: AOL's Mail Controls Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Some list owners have recently noticed an increased number of bounces from AOL members, giving an error that looks something like: > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > .... while talking to air16.mail.aol.com.: > >>> RCPT To: > <<< 550 AOLAddress is not accepting mail from this sender > 550 ... User unknown AOL's given its members Mail Controls some time that lets them block mail from particular addresses/domains. Recently, these controls were updated to allow AOL members to block all Internet mail. A lot of them are doing this, because of the deluge of UCE they're getting hit with. As a byproduct, many list postings are also getting blocked. From my experience, this isn't done maliciously, it's just a matter of the person forgetting about the list they're on or not really thinking their actions through properly. I've done a lot of experimentation on this subject. As far as I can tell, AOL's Mail Controls block the "Return-Path" header (though I have had some inconsistent results). If your list has a static Return-Path (as most do, to direct bounces to the list admin and not the message's sender), then you can have them un-block that address, and they'll get your postings fine. Note that depending on your list manager, the Return-Path from command responses might be different from the Return-Path of your list postings (ie: LISTSERV generates a blank Return-Path, and can't be un-blocked). Have fun... -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 18 17:15:41 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA22462; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:48:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id QAA22452 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:48:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from tera.bctel.net (tera.bctel.net [204.174.64.252]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id TAA02884 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:41:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by tera.bctel.net (8.7.6/8.7.1) id TAA04447; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:40:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from adm200.mutl-max01.bctel.net(204.174.213.200) by tera.bctel.net via smap (V2.0) id xma004445; Sun, 16 Nov 97 19:40:38 -0800 Received: (from brian@localhost) by linux.home.ilinx.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10207; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:42:41 -0800 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199711170342.TAA10207@linux.home.ilinx.com> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:42:37 -0800 (PST) To: jlick@drivel.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: brian@ilinx.com Subject: Re: Content-Type: text/plain In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3.2-970722-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of James Lick on scroll > It's rocketmail.com, not mailexcite.com that puts in Content-Type headers > on non-attachment mail. > > -- James Lick -- jlick@drivel.com -- http://drivel.com/jlick/ -- > > >From CENSORED@rocketmail.com Sun Nov 16 17:48:02 1997 > Received: from web4.rocketmail.com (web4.rocketmail.com [205.180.57.78]) > by tcp.com (8.8.8/8.6.10) with SMTP id RAA22296 for ; > Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:48:02 -0800 (PST) > Message-ID: <19971117014548.24193.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com> > Received: from [205.180.57.69] by web4; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:45:48 PST > Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:45:48 -0800 (PST) > From: CENSORED > To: majordomo@tcp.com > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Type: text/plain in the main header body is fine. What anyone going down this road should do is read the MIME RFCs and do the attachment stripping properly. It really is trivial to selectively keep portions of a multipart e-mail if that's really what you want to do. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 18 17:24:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA22665; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id QAA22655 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:50:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from newfed.frb.gov (newfed.frb.gov [198.3.221.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id NAA23948 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:33:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from FRB.GOV (umailfwd@localhost) by newfed.frb.gov (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id QAA20594; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:20:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jmb@FRB.GOV) Received: from kryten.frb.gov by frbgate.FRB.GOV (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA08573; Mon, 17 Nov 97 13:56:40 EST Received: from localhost.frb.gov (localhost.frb.gov [127.0.0.1]) by kryten.frb.gov (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA06166; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:55:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jmb@kryten.frb.gov) Message-Id: <199711171855.NAA06166@kryten.frb.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: kryten.frb.gov: localhost.frb.gov [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Dave/WebMaster , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Pro-Spammers mailing list In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:04:48 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:55:53 -0500 From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >At 5:36 AM -0800 11/17/97, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > >> with all due respect, i dont think you understand. > >I understand very well, thank you. > >> the model is the famous "clueless mailing list". clueless users > >Oh, that's an even better model. The old "make fun of the retarded" >model. Sorry if I don't join the laughter. so are you saying that spammers are retarded? or are you saying that the clueless are retarded? i am saying they are fully capable, just not willing to respect the rights of others. in the case of spammers, they dont respect my rights by polluting my mailbox. in the case of the clueless, they dont respect the rights of everyone else on the mailing list be repeated sending "unsubscribe me" messages to the entire list. these people arent retarded, they are inconsiderate ;) > >> we are not dropping to their level, we are redirecting the trash >> they send us back to them. > >Please excuse me if I don't see it the way you do. But what's more >important, don't be surprised if THEY don't -- because what you think >doesn't matter if they decide it's an attack and decide to retaliate. not everyone sees everything the same way, that's cool. retaliate?? WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO, SEND MORE SPAM!!!! "make it worse? how can i make it worse!" "jevhovah! jevhovah! jevhovah!" --life of brian jmb From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 18 17:25:15 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA22575; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:49:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id QAA22565 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:49:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from newfed.frb.gov (newfed.frb.gov [198.3.221.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id GAA06080 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 06:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from FRB.GOV (umailfwd@localhost) by newfed.frb.gov (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id IAA01515; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:55:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jmb@FRB.GOV) Received: from kryten.frb.gov by frbgate.FRB.GOV (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA24350; Mon, 17 Nov 97 08:37:36 EST Received: from localhost.frb.gov (localhost.frb.gov [127.0.0.1]) by kryten.frb.gov (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA03396; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:36:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jmb@kryten.frb.gov) Message-Id: <199711171336.IAA03396@kryten.frb.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: kryten.frb.gov: localhost.frb.gov [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Dave/WebMaster , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Pro-Spammers mailing list In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:02:51 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:36:48 -0500 From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >At 5:31 AM -0800 11/13/97, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > >> join using an alias for /dev/null. >> send them all the spam you receive. >> if they remove you, resubscribe under another alias for /dev/null. > >All this does is encourage them to look for the lists that people are >using to generate the attacks on their lists (like list-managers), and >give them leave to come and attack THOSE lists. After all, you're >starting it. And they have better attack tools than we do. > >Doesn't this simply sound like encouraging folks to drop to their >level? Does to me. with all due respect, i dont think you understand. the model is the famous "clueless mailing list". clueless users that insist upon sending "unsubscribe me" messages to the mailing list itself and not the admin address, were added to the "clueless mailing list". the only subscribers were people that sent "unsubscribe me" messages to the list and not the admin address. all the list traffic was people yelling at each other "unsubscribe me". a weekly posting told them how to unsubcribe. sooner or later they learned. i offer the same model in dealing with a spammers mailing list. send the spammers all your spam. use the sendmail rules from FreeBSD-2.2.5 /etc/mail to block spam from your site. we are not dropping to their level, we are redirecting the trash they send us back to them. jmb > > >-- > Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome > > > Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) > ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) > > > From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 18 21:14:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA16900; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:07:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id VAA16836 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:07:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id XAA22549 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:09:46 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711190509.XAA22549@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 23:10:18 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11/15/97 6:15 PM CST, Alan Czarnek wrote... >Perhaps I overlooked some command that would specifically >disallow attachments. All I can say is that I looked, didn't find one, >and tried to find a work-around solution. The problem is, attachments are not really a standard. The way they're handled can vary from mailer to mailer, and from gateway to gateway. Message aize limits are a much more certain way to deal with attachments. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 18 22:27:51 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA23295; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:18:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id WAA23280 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:18:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chip@localhost) by mail.unicom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA09095; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 00:20:52 -0600 (CST) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199711190620.AAA09095@mail.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments To: adamb@tezcat.com (Adam Bailey) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 00:20:51 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199711190509.XAA22549@quilla.tezcat.com> from "Adam Bailey" at Nov 18, 1997 11:10:18 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Adam Bailey writes: > The problem is, attachments are not really a standard. Eh??? base64 encoding is a formal standard. uuencode encoding is a defacto standard. Either is easily recognized and reliably handled. The folks who run binary scanning 'bots (I got me one o' those!) prove it every day. I proved it to myself when I wrote the binary striping code for the Deja News NNTP server. Believe me, this is not rocket science. -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development http://www.unicom.com/ Outlaw junk email * Support CAUCE http://www.cauce.org/ Spammers ate my mail server! http://anti-relay.unicom.com/anti-relay/ From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 18 22:42:34 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA24704; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:31:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wasatch.com (ns.wasatch.com [204.99.129.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id WAA24671 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:31:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALNAME (209.63.78.71) by mail.wasatch.com with smtp (Linux Smail3.2.0.94 #1) id m0xY3i4-000SibC; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:34:00 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <34729697.24D5@wasatch.com> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:34:47 -0800 From: "W. David Samuelsen" Reply-To: dsam@wasatch.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: re: new anti-spam bounce messages??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This came to my attention just today. http://pages.infinit.net/dethier/ay/bsm/ Check it out and your comments??? Bounce Spam Mail 1.5 (freeware) is the name of the software. W. David Samuelsen From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 18 23:27:43 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA29059; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:15:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id XAA29049 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:14:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA17868; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:17:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA17159; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:21:05 -0800 To: dsam@wasatch.com cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: new anti-spam bounce messages??? In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:34:47 -0800. <34729697.24D5@wasatch.com> X-Copyright: (c) 1997 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Reply-To: rfg@monkeys.com Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:21:05 -0800 Message-ID: <17156.879924065@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <34729697.24D5@wasatch.com>, you wrote: >This came to my attention just today. > >http://pages.infinit.net/dethier/ay/bsm/ > >Check it out and your comments??? > >Bounce Spam Mail 1.5 (freeware) is the name of the software. Where does it bounce the spam to?? My own statistics here say that currently spam is running at about 70% forged, so bounces will (a) do no good and (b) probably go to the wrong places. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 18 23:37:15 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA28922; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:12:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.254.96.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id XAA28441 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA30304 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 02:03:18 -0500 X-Sender: humour@humournet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199711190509.XAA22549@quilla.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 02:11:14 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 23:10 -0500 11/18/97, Adam Bailey said: >The problem is, attachments are not really a standard. The way they're >handled can vary from mailer to mailer, and from gateway to gateway. Maybe the way they're *handled* can vary, but the attachments, themselves, are *very* standard, for the most part. Otherwise, they wouldn't be "attachments," they'd be "incomprehensible body text," right? ;-) >Message aize limits are a much more certain way to deal with attachments. Message size limits have their, uh, *limits*, as well. Overall, I think that *line count* limits are the LEAST effective way to deal with the horrid beasts (yet they work tolerably well). I'm right now setting up an experiment in Lyris -- on a "live" list -- to test its ability to reject a broad range of attachments, with a nice little message back to the sender. We'll see how it goes ... __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre: vince@humournet.com HumourNet: Stop Internet Spam! Behind every successful man Behind every successful man is a is a surprised woman woman with expensive taste -- Maryon Pearson -- Vince Sabio From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 19 01:42:14 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA09562; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 01:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from crane.cf.ac.uk (crane.cf.ac.uk [131.251.0.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id BAA09527 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 01:41:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from thor.cf.ac.uk by crane.cf.ac.uk with SMTP-LOC (PP); Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:34:21 +0000 Received: (from scocc@localhost) by thor.cf.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.6.12) id JAA06261 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:42:49 GMT From: Chris Cook Message-Id: <199711190942.JAA06261@thor.cf.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Mailing all users? To: L.Richardson@canterbury.ac.uk Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:42:51 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Linda Richardson" at Nov 18, 97 08:56:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Previously Linda Richardson wrote - > > > I wondered what other policies sites have with regard to users sending > to 'all users'. We have disabled this function, but are frequently > asked to send to 'all students' or 'all staff' or both. On the > odd occasions that we do mass mailings our mail server suffers, thus > confirming our believe that we should not allow this. However the > requests are increasing, despite our efforts to point people towards > using web pages etc. Do other sites generally allow this, or restrict > it to certain people, or not allow it at all? > We're in a similar position to you. I've written scripts to try to limit the effect of sending out an announcement but even so, at one each that's still around 30,000 messages. We average one request a week to mail the whole university, usually vital information about some meeting that has been left too late to publicise. Generally we only use the facility to notify people about the computing service. The only exceptions recently have been the meningitis outbreak last year and the previous winter when local blood stocks dropped dangerously low during the snow. One thing I do is set the message headers so they look as though they went to some fake list, AllUsers@cardiff.ac.uk, and from the address Announcement@Cardiff.ac.uk. This draws quite a few reponses from idiots who think it's funny/clever to reply to messages marked "Please do not reply". The advantages of this are Their messages get forwarded on to a vacation auto reply address so that they get told their message went nowhere. The auto-response gives contact information so that genuine enquiries know where to address the questions The program only sends one reply to an individual address in any 7 day period. This thwarts the even lower species of e-vermin who think they've got a toy to play with that always replies. I've never set up a genuine address for AllUsers so I don't know how many people try to advertise flats, sell cars, look for dates. Maybe I'll do it one day. Hope this helps. Chris Cook - Senior Postmaster _____________________________________________________________________________ | Chris Cook - Senior Postmaster and UNIX Administrator | | University of Wales E-mail : CookC@Cardiff.AC.UK | | College of Cardiff, Phone : +44 1222 874875 | | 40-41 Park Place, (Direct) : +44 1222 874219 | | Cardiff, UK Fax : +44 1222 874285 | |___________________________________________________________________________| From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 19 03:12:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA24415; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:10:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from romeo.ic.ac.uk (romeo.ic.ac.uk [155.198.5.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id DAA24309 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:09:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from judy.ic.ac.uk [155.198.5.5] by romeo.ic.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0xY83H-00031f-00; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:12:11 +0000 Received: from icex1.cc.ic.ac.uk (icex1.cc.ic.ac.uk [155.198.3.1]) by judy.ic.ac.uk (8.7.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id LAA19823 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:11:54 GMT Received: by icex1 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:11:52 -0000 Message-ID: <1DDE14823849D111B34800609731373630B8BA@icex1> From: "Chamberlain, Michael A." To: "'cecb@mhv.net'" , alancz@usa.net Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: RE: Blocking all attachments Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:11:51 -0000 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > On 15 Nov 97, Alan Czarnek wrote: > Re: Blocking all attachments: > > > > There's a mailing list to which I belong which > > has ongoing problems with members who continue > > to send *very* large attachments (meg or more) > > >which causes great problems to list subscribers. > > > > It's not the size of 'postings' that concerns > us.....it is the size of 'attachments' > > We don't have a problem with the length of postings. > We just want to get rid of *all* attachments. > How about setting up the MLM to send mails through metamail, get that to strip all attachments, (letting text/* attachments through). The stripping process could even place the attachments onto a webserver or such and leave a message of 'Attachment X decoded and is available at http://www.blah.com/list/attachments/X Ok, so this does completely mundge the mail in some cases, and you need to be careful that someone doesn't start using your mailing list as a web publishing service. But it will remove attachments. You may need to catch uuencoded stuff seperately, since metamail won't deal with it. Mike. From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 19 10:23:26 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA15554; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:56:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id JAA15531 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:56:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALNAME ([12.64.1.58]) by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA27588 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:58:31 +0000 Message-ID: <34732970.29DA@Qmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:01:20 -0800 From: Thompson Reply-To: Thom.RE@worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Bounce message implications? References: <199711190900.BAA04246@honor.greatcircle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A newbie question: Does anybody know of a web site or an FTP-retrievable file that explains *in lay terms* the implications of bounce messages? (My favorite: "A remote server failed." Holy helpfulness, Batman, that doesn't give me a clue what to try next.) Thank you. Sincerely, Tommi -- Tommi T, CAFG List Maintainer Thom.RE@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 19 10:32:33 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA16109; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:01:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from java.aboard.co.uk ([193.164.182.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id KAA16076 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nick@localhost) by java.aboard.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA30231; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:00:49 GMT From: Nick Perry Message-ID: <19971119180048.46091@amulation.co.uk> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:00:48 +0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments References: <199711190509.XAA22549@quilla.tezcat.com> <199711190620.AAA09095@mail.unicom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <199711190620.AAA09095@mail.unicom.com>; from Chip Rosenthal on Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 12:20:51AM -0600 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 12:20:51AM -0600, Chip Rosenthal wrote: > Adam Bailey writes: > > The problem is, attachments are not really a standard. > > Eh??? base64 encoding is a formal standard. uuencode encoding is > a defacto standard. Either is easily recognized and reliably > handled. FWIW - a quick piece of perl I wrote to strip certain mime types and uuencoded/binhexed parts is in my majordomo patches ftp directory: ftp://ftp.amulation.com/pub/majordomo_patches/mailstrip It does what I want and although wriiten only for my use - is configurable, to a certain extent. I insert it into my mail aliases thus: mylist: "|/bin/mailstrip | /whatever/was/there/before" As supplied, it stips any MIME part that isn't text/plain and/or any MIME part that is base64 encoded and or anything that follows a 'begin nnn' line (uuencoded att.) or a '(This file must be converted with BinHex' line (macintosh binhex) Though, as mentioned, it can be modified via (perl) regexps reasonably easily. I'm not pretending that it is professional quality software - but it may make someones life easier.... Nick -- Nick Perry | Home / Recreation | Work - AboarD | | LONDON SW1, UK | LONDON SW6, UK | | http://www.amulation.co.uk/nick | http://www.aboard.co.uk | | nick.perry@amulation.co.uk | np@aboard.co.uk | From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 19 12:16:55 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA29648; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:04:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id MAA29601 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:04:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments To: nick.perry@amulation.co.uk (Nick Perry) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:06:10 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <19971119180048.46091@amulation.co.uk> from "Nick Perry" at Nov 19, 97 06:00:48 pm From: "David W. Tamkin" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Nick Perry wrote, | FWIW - a quick piece of perl I wrote to strip certain mime types and | uuencoded/binhexed parts is in my majordomo patches ftp directory: | | ftp://ftp.amulation.com/pub/majordomo_patches/mailstrip | | It does what I want and although wriiten only for my use - is | configurable, to a certain extent. | I'm not pretending that it is professional quality software - but it | may make someones life easier.... It certainly makes the lives of Nick's subscribers (I'm one of them) easier. From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 19 12:30:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA29100; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:01:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.csd.unb.ca (hermes.csd.unb.ca [131.202.3.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id MAA28831 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:00:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix.unb.ca (rvandine@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca [131.202.3.6]) by unb.ca (8.8.7/970923-13:44) with ESMTP id QAA10275 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:01:12 -0400 (AST) Received: from localhost by unix.unb.ca (8.8.5/970702-14:15) id QAA10625; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:01:10 -0400 (AST) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:01:09 -0400 (AST) From: "Rhonda Vandine (CSPACE)" X-Sender: rvandine@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca Reply-To: "Rhonda Vandine (CSPACE)" To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Bounce message implications? In-Reply-To: <34732970.29DA@Qmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Does anybody know of a web site or an FTP-retrievable file > that explains *in lay terms* the implications of bounce > messages? > > (My favorite: "A remote server failed." Holy helpfulness, > Batman, that doesn't give me a clue what to try next.) I had the same problem when I was asked to handle the mailing lists at my work. I developed a simple list ownership website for people like myself and managers who had little computer experience. The site has been compiled of bits and pieces taken from the LISTSERV User Guide by the EARN Association and the List Owner's Manual by L-Soft international, Inc. http://cap.unb.ca/listserv/ Hope it helps. __________________________________________________________________ Rhonda Vandine (CSpace) Community Access Canada E-mail: rvandine@unb.ca Marshall d'Avray Hall, UNB Phone: 506 447-3153 Fredericton, NB Fax: 506 447-3151 E3B 6E3 http://cap.unb.ca/ __________________________________________________________________ From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 19 12:42:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA01471; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:19:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from nucleus.com (nucleus.com [199.45.65.129]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id MAA01425 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:19:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.34.64.181] ([207.34.64.181]) by nucleus.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05742 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:29:04 -0700 (MST) X-Sender: grant@pop1.achilles.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199711190509.XAA22549@quilla.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:23:10 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Grant Neufeld Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:10 PM -0700 1997/11/18, Adam Bailey wrote: >The problem is, attachments are not really a standard. The way they're >handled can vary from mailer to mailer, and from gateway to gateway. >From RFC 1341: Network Working Group N. Borenstein, Bellcore Request for Comments: 1341 N. Freed, Innosoft June 1992 MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail Extensions): Mechanisms for Specifying and Describing the Format of Internet Message Bodies ...This document redefines the format of message bodies to allow multi-part textual and non-textual message bodies to be represented and exchanged without loss of information.... In particular, this document is designed to provide facilities to include multiple objects in a single message, to represent body text in character sets other than US- ASCII, to represent formatted multi-font text messages, to represent non-textual material such as images and audio fragments, and generally to facilitate later extensions defining new types of Internet mail for use by cooperating mail agents.... -- grant@acm.org grant@kagi.com http://arpp.carleton.ca/ O- <*> From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 19 13:43:30 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA07999; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:38:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id NAA07966 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:37:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <199711192137.claire.97113721@siberia.demon.co.uk> From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:37:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Disclaimers Reply-to: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One of the users on one of my lists has just posted a mesage which refers to a 3rd party in pretty hostile terms, which I fear could be used as grounds for legal action for defamation if the 3rd party was so minded. I think this is hihghly unlikely, but it has made think about the need for a policy for the future. The list is unmoderated (though subscriptions are approved), so there is no way that any pre-censorship can be imposed. However, I do delete obvious chaff from the web archives of the list, so I'm getting a friendly lawyer to advise me on the merits of keeping this thread out of the archives. Anyway, the whole thing has reminded me that I should have some sort of diclaimer in the footers, something to the effect that posts reflect the view of individuals and not of the organisation on whose behalf I help to run the list. I'm sure that others have been here before: can anyone offer any suggestions on a reasonably terse but informative wording? Thanks! Claire -- Claire McNab -- Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 19 14:41:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA14145; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:30:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id OAA14094 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 12044 invoked from network); 19 Nov 1997 22:32:57 -0000 Received: from dave.armchair.mb.ca (HELO dave) (198.163.115.50) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 19 Nov 1997 22:32:57 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971119163538.00bc6390@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:35:38 -0600 To: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab), List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: Disclaimers In-Reply-To: <199711192137.claire.97113721@siberia.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:37 PM 11/19/97 +0000, Claire McNab wrote: [Disclaimers?] I usually use this: >Anyone posting a message is entirely responsible for the content of his or >her message. The owner of the list and are in no way >responsible for the content of any message, or for any consequences >resulting directly or indirectly from the receipt of or failure to >receive any message. I am not a lawyer, not do I play one on TV. Therefore, it's up to you to determine whether this has any legal weight or not. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 19 15:27:15 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA22321; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:25:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotel.uws.EDU.AU (hotel.uws.EDU.AU [137.154.40.110]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id PAA22258 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:24:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from tonyf.uws.edu.au ([137.154.42.25]) by hotel.uws.EDU.AU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA13881 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:26:42 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971120102708.00873c20@hotel.uws.edu.au> X-Sender: anthonyf@hotel.uws.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:27:08 +1100 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com From: Tony Fathers Subject: Re: Mailing all users? In-Reply-To: <199711190942.JAA06261@thor.cf.ac.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Previously Linda Richardson wrote - >> I wondered what other policies sites have with regard to users sending >> to 'all users'. We have disabled this function, but are frequently >> asked to send to 'all students' or 'all staff' or both. On the >> odd occasions that we do mass mailings our mail server suffers, We have similar problems and have largely solved it by: publishing an "all-users" bulletin twice a week - all mail posted to the all address is compiled into the bulletin, which is posted in the dead of night when server use is low. This list is moderated - no-one can post without approval. Membership is compulsory for staff. providing a "general all users" list which runs on a special script - this list is not moderated and any svbscriber can post at any time, unsvbs are allowed. The script batches email and processes it in batches of 20 at a time, until all svbscribers are reached. It may take several hours for the message to be propagated to all, but the load on the server is minimal. The only problems occur when senior staff insist that their message is urgent and must go separately, and during the day. We warn them, but it is guaranteed to kill services for up to two hours. Fortunately, most are reasonable, and are happy for me to manually approve the email to be sent out of hours. Regards Tony Fathers ph: 02 4570 1836 Network Officer fax: 02 4588 5867 University of Western Sydney mobile: 0414 619 778 http://www.hawkesbury.edu.au/~anthonyf email: a.fathers@uws.edu.au From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 19 17:57:22 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA13570; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:44:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id RAA13548 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:44:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id TAA09899 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:46:36 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711200146.TAA09899@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 19:47:09 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11/19/97 2:11 AM CST, Vince Sabio wrote... >** Sometime around 23:10 -0500 11/18/97, Adam Bailey said: > >>The problem is, attachments are not really a standard. The way they're >>handled can vary from mailer to mailer, and from gateway to gateway. > >Maybe the way they're *handled* can vary, but the attachments, themselves, >are *very* standard, for the most part. That's what I meant. What one mailer or gateway considers body text, another considers an attachment. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 19 19:12:36 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA21643; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:00:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (kristeva.postmodern.com [198.102.244.54]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id TAA21621 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [198.102.244.52]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-960422) with ESMTP id TAA28038; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:02:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3473A84B.4016DD53@postmodern.com> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:05:32 -0800 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: Adam Bailey Subject: Re: Blocking all attachments References: <199711200146.TAA09899@quilla.tezcat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Adam Bailey wrote: > > On 11/19/97 2:11 AM CST, Vince Sabio wrote... > > >** Sometime around 23:10 -0500 11/18/97, Adam Bailey said: > > > >>The problem is, attachments are not really a standard. The way they're > >>handled can vary from mailer to mailer, and from gateway to gateway. > > > >Maybe the way they're *handled* can vary, but the attachments, themselves, > >are *very* standard, for the most part. > > That's what I meant. What one mailer or gateway considers body text, > another considers an attachment. Um, no. How many years has MIME been an Internet standard? If a gateway or mailer claims to gateway to or from the Internet into a non-Internet-standard mail domain (like cc:mail or QuickMail or PROFS or whatever), and does not syntactically recognize a MIME attachment (regardless of whether it has the capability to decode it or process it), it's fatally broken and need not be supported, and whomever is using it should be flamed. (Excuse me, "admonished".) An attachment is an attachment. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 19 23:56:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA10650; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 23:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from blackhole.dimensional.com (blackhole.dimensional.com [208.206.176.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id XAA10635 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 23:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from flatland.dimensional.com (tedsmith@flatland.dimensional.com [208.206.176.24]) by blackhole.dimensional.com (8.8.7/8.8.nospam) with SMTP id AAA09063 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:47:23 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:47:22 -0700 (MST) From: Theodore M Smith To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Can you help with AOL troublemakers? In-Reply-To: <199711192137.claire.97113721@siberia.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a website and a listserv, and I've only been on this mailing list for the few short months I've had the list, so I'm a newbie. I am having difficulties with a handful of hackers/flamers in both places. Although there are ways I can deal with them, some of those ways involve email confirmation or other security I'm reluctant to use. The reason, with which you obviously may disagree, is that while the site and list are new and I'm trying to attract new users I'm trying to cater to the fear of some of that kind of security. Which leads to the problem. Two of the hackers/flamers are from America OnLine. I can supply logs showing the exact time and AOL proxy these folks used, so AOL abuse/security folks could track them down and ask them to stop, as one major ISP did. But all I get out of AOL are automated acknowledgements and persons at 800 numbers telling me just to email again. That hasn't worked for several weeks. I'm sure AOL has some folks who would be helpful if I can once get past the bureaucratic insulation. Does anyone have a name and telephone number at AOL who could help? Thanks very much. Ted Smith Denver, Colorado USA From owner-list-managers-list Thu Nov 20 01:42:19 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA16300; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:31:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id BAA16278 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA29266; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:33:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA28133; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:32:22 -0800 To: Theodore M Smith cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Can you help with AOL troublemakers? In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:47:22 -0700. X-Copyright: (c) 1997 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Reply-To: rfg@monkeys.com Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:32:21 -0800 Message-ID: <28130.880018341@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , Theodore M Smith wrote: > I am having difficulties with a handful of hackers/flamers >in both places. Point #1: There is one hell of a big difference between hackers and flamers. Which type of affliction do you actually have? If you have been hacked, then you need to pursue a whole set of actions in order to deal with that, and there are many people (myself included) who will be glad to give you LOTS of advice on securing your systems (assuming the you are the system administrator at the site which hosts your mailing list). If however you are just getting a bunch of flames on your list... well... that is a whole different problem. In that case, why not just manually unsubscribe the flamers? It _is_ your list after all. >Although there are ways I can deal with them, >some of those ways involve email confirmation or other security >I'm reluctant to use. You are not making any sense. The various uses of ``confirmation'' in conjunction with mailing lists that I am aware of won't help you to deal with _either_ hackers or flamers in any way. So why don't you stop beating 'round the bush and say what you mean in clear terms? >The reason, with which you obviously >may disagree, is that while the site and list are new and I'm >trying to attract new users... Nothing wrong with that. >... I'm trying to cater to the fear of >some of that kind of security. In whom does ``security'' (you are still being entirely vague about what you really mean here) engender ``fear'', other than bad people? > Which leads to the problem. Two of the hackers/flamers >are from America OnLine. I can supply logs showing the exact >time and AOL proxy these folks used, so AOL abuse/security >folks could track them down and ask them to stop, as one major >ISP did. But all I get out of AOL are automated acknowledgements >and persons at 800 numbers telling me just to email again. That >hasn't worked for several weeks. It isn't up to AOL to act as a moderator for _your_ list, or to determine acceptable conduct on your list. That's _your_ job. > I'm sure AOL has some folks who would be helpful if >I can once get past the bureaucratic insulation. > > Does anyone have a name and telephone number at AOL >who could help? Tes, but as I say, it sounds to me like you just need to revoke the member- ship/subscriptions of the few people who you think are being excessively disruptive. So just do that. You don't need AOL's help to do that. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From owner-list-managers-list Thu Nov 20 09:22:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA11424; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:43:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu (BROCCOLI.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.53]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id IAA11393 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:42:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from graphics.cornell.edu (LOCALHOST) by broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA280104283; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:44:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199711201644.AA280104283@broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: rfg@monkeys.com Cc: Theodore M Smith , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Can you help with AOL troublemakers? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:32:21 PST." <28130.880018341@monkeys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:44:43 -0500 From: Mitch Collinsworth Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >In whom does ``security'' (you are still being entirely vague about what you >really mean here) engender ``fear'', other than bad people? Ron, I was with you up to here. But it seems to me that there are an awful lot of _good_ people on the net campaigning against _bad_ security. (I.e. government regulations requiring key escrow, attempts to outlaw public-key, etc.) You were making a perfectly fine argument before you started down this road. Your statement above sounds strikingly similar to the old "If you weren't doing anything wrong then you shouldn't have anything to hide" argument. Might want to reconsider. -Mitch -- "Families can't trust Disney" From owner-list-managers-list Thu Nov 20 10:27:26 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA28648; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:18:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id KAA28558 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:18:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA20074; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:20:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA09315; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:19:22 -0800 To: Mitch Collinsworth cc: Theodore M Smith , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Can you help with AOL troublemakers? In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:44:43 -0500. <199711201644.AA280104283@broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Copyright: (c) 1997 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Reply-To: rfg@monkeys.com Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:19:22 -0800 Message-ID: <9312.880049962@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199711201644.AA280104283@broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu>, Mitch Collinsworth wrote: >>In whom does ``security'' (you are still being entirely vague about what you >>really mean here) engender ``fear'', other than bad people? > > >Ron, I was with you up to here. But it seems to me that there are >an awful lot of _good_ people on the net campaigning against _bad_ >security. (I.e. government regulations requiring key escrow, attempts >to outlaw public-key, etc.) You were making a perfectly fine argument >before you started down this road. Your statement above sounds >strikingly similar to the old "If you weren't doing anything wrong then >you shouldn't have anything to hide" argument. In general, I _do_ feel that way... at least when it comes to ``private'' security. If I happen to pass by an industrial building, and I see that it is surrounded with barbed-wire and huge floodlights and cameras, and yes, even dogs, do I get bent outta shape? No way. That's private property and the owners have a right to maintain tight security control over it if they like. I consider mailing lists the same way. They are private property. Each one has an owner who has some (and perhaps a lot) of responsibility for how the list is run. The owner has the right to have whatever ``security'' and as much security as he/she likes. >Might want to reconsider. Not really. We are just having a difference of terminology here. What I call `security'' is stuff like having passwords on your server accounts. I do not call government attempts to enforce key escrow and/or weak en- cription ``security''. I have another name for that stuff... ``stupidity''. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From owner-list-managers-list Thu Nov 20 20:42:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA23321; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:23:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from blackhole.dimensional.com (blackhole.dimensional.com [208.206.176.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id UAA23310 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from flatland.dimensional.com (tedsmith@flatland.dimensional.com [208.206.176.24]) by blackhole.dimensional.com (8.8.7/8.8.nospam) with SMTP id SAA08963 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:07:04 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:07:02 -0700 (MST) From: Theodore M Smith To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: [CLARIFICATION] Can you help with AOL troublemakers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm sorry that I seem to have expressed my question inexactly (although I deeply appreciate several answers which were directly on point). I simply need to know if anyone who has had trouble with AOL subscribers knows any way actually to find a knowledgeable person to talk to there, since emails to postmaster or calls to the customer service numbers just result in no action. I recognize I may be headed the way of the person who contacted legal counsel, but I'm trying to do anything I can short of that to resolve the problem. Gotta think there are decent folks at AOL. I just need to find out who they are. Many thanks. Ted Smith Denver From owner-list-managers-list Fri Nov 21 06:57:30 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA16686; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 06:52:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id GAA16668 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 06:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALNAME ([12.64.1.183]) by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA6200 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:54:20 +0000 Message-ID: <3475A158.2629@Qmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 06:57:28 -0800 From: Thompson Reply-To: Thom.RE@worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Bounce message implications? Followup Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks for your generous responses to my newbie question: >> Does anybody know of a web site or an FTP-retrievable file >> that explains *in lay terms* the implications of bounce >> messages? >> >> (My favorite: "A remote server failed." Holy helpfulness, >> Batman, that doesn't give me a clue what to try next.) * I'm grateful for Rhonda Vandine's web site for computer-newbie list owners, with its excellent page for bounce interpreting and handling, on 6 bounces: http://cap.unb.ca/listserv/ 1. No such user at host 2. No such host 3. No MX or A records for host 4. Transient failure: cannot deliver for n days 5. Mailbox full 6. Unknown mailer error x * Found another site that discusses five common bounce messages: http://wolf.weeg.uiowa.edu/helpdesk/faqhtmls/email-problems.html#bounced 1. Unknown Recipient or User Unknown 2. Connection Timed Out 3. Unknown Host 4. Warning: Message could not be delivered for X hours/days 5. Too many hops * Freeware that will indicate whether it's a fatal or transient bounce problem: http://www.smartbounce.com/ * And Norbert B. generously offered to put together a document that explains the implications of bounce messages, if it developed that no such document is yet available. Thank you all. I'm miles ahead of where I was when I wrote to you. I still have no clue what to do with "A remote server failed." (On one valid e-addy that I *can* reach from my AOL and Juno accounts, I've tested weekly for three months from the list account, and still get "A remote server failed." So, apparently it's about the path between the list server and the subscriber's server, since the subscriber's e-addy receives mail just fine from other (AOL, Juno) servers. Most puzzling. Our list hosting ISP's tech support has no answers.) Norbert, any bounce help that you have the patience and inclination to put up for newbies, would be gratefully welcomed, used, and shared with others. Thanks again for your help. Sincerely, Tommi -- Tommi T, CAFG List Maintainer Thom.RE@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------------------------------------ PS-- I love (at least as a spectator sport) the acid wit in this group. From owner-list-managers-list Fri Nov 21 08:28:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA01899; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:16:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id IAA01882 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pythagoras (bollow@pythagoras [129.132.146.161]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.6.12/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id RAA10127; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:18:39 +0100 Received: (bollow@localhost) by pythagoras (SMI-8.6/D-MATH-client) id RAA03046; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:18:38 +0100 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:18:38 +0100 Message-Id: <199711211618.RAA03046@pythagoras> From: Norbert Bollow To: Thom.RE@worldnet.att.net CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <3475A158.2629@Qmail.com> (message from Thompson on Fri, 21 Nov 1997 06:57:28 -0800) Subject: Bounce handling Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >> Does anybody know of a web site or an FTP-retrievable file > >> that explains *in lay terms* the implications of bounce > >> messages? > and handling, on 6 bounces: http://cap.unb.ca/listserv/ > http://wolf.weeg.uiowa.edu/helpdesk/faqhtmls/email-problems.html#bounced These documents explain the *intended meanings* of some common bounce messages (i.e. what the programmer who wrote the program that generates the bounce thought what would be the problem) but you should keep in mind that this will not always be accurate. For example, the common "No such user at host" or "Unknown Recipient" or "User Unknown" is often generated for perfectly valid e-mail addresses when during system maintenance the computer is temporarily unable to deliver e-mail. (Of course, responsible system administrators know how this can be avoided.) > Norbert, any bounce help that you have the patience and > inclination to put up for newbies, would be gratefully > welcomed, used, and shared with others. In my opinion the only reasonable way for dealing with bounces is by means of an automated program such as e.g. my Bouncefilter (which is much better than all other currently existing bounce handling software in my opinion, but then I may be biased. This is free software and currently in alpha testing.) The idea of Bouncefilter is that is does not only completely free the list-owner of the chore of dealing with bounces, but also allows list-owner, subscriber and the postmasters of the sites concerned to retrieve accurate information on any mail delivery problems that may have occured. Of course, when asked about mail delivery problems, Bouncefilter can only pass on whatever (possibly misleading) messages were contained in the bounces in question. For this reason I also plan to put together a website with explanations of the meanings of bounce messages, especially those which are incomprehensible, confusing or potentially misleading. I welcome everyone to contribute questions and answers for this website by private e-mail to my e-mail address . When I have received enough questions to make such a website worthwhile I will answer them (to my best knowledge) and announce the website. May blessings from the eternal God surprise and overtake you! Norbert. From owner-list-managers-list Fri Nov 21 11:43:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA01688; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:32:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id LAA01511 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:31:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from huitzilo.tezcat.com (adamb@huitzilo.tezcat.com [204.128.247.17]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id NAA28855 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:33:56 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:33:55 -0600 (CST) From: Adam Bailey To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: [CLARIFICATION] Can you help with AOL troublemakers? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11/20/97 8:07 PM, Theodore M Smith wrote... > I simply need to know if anyone who has had trouble with >AOL subscribers knows any way actually to find a knowledgeable >person to talk to there, since emails to postmaster or calls to >the customer service numbers just result in no action. If you're trying to report legitimate abuse, forward the relevant messages to abuse@aol.net. Keep in mind, however, that if your problems are just annoyance or trolling, you may not get the kind of response you're looking for. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From owner-list-managers-list Sun Nov 23 13:57:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA11779; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id NAA11768 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:46:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA01102 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:49:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06759 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:48:48 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: New spammer blacklists available. X-Copyright: (c) 1997 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Reply-To: rfg@monkeys.com Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:48:48 -0800 Message-ID: <6756.880321728@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It has been brought to my attention that I made at least one (and possibly several) grevious errors in the spammer blacklists that I posted here awhile ago. In particular, the domain `hal9k.com' was improperly listed on my blacklists in the past and has since been removed. (This site merely had an open SMTP relay which was abused by some spammer. That open SMTP relay has now been closed and the owner of that domain has also added a strongly anti-spam acceptable use statement to his site's home page.) I have recently been doing extensive updating and also extensive testing of my anti-spam E-mail blacklists and I'm very happy with the results they are now producing. They are catching well over 90% of all E-mail spam while producing very nearly zero false positives on my test-bed data base of over 100,000 E-mail messages, mostly drawn from mailing list archives. (The hand- ful of false positives are generally attributable to the occasional odd-ball doing something really bizzare... like for example the guy who sent E-mail to his friend who apparently has the address: "//\[4Z@_P1+cH3N1K\]\"Gear Slut\"" This was picked up by my filter due to the presence of the "@_" substring in the To: header, which happens to be commonly seen in spam also. The few other false positives are mostly attributable to messages in which the senders used "To: (Recipient list suppressed)" in violation of RFC 822 which requires at least one address in the To: header.) My latest blacklists (sans comments/annotations) can be viewed at: http://www.e-scrub.com/cgi-bin/blacklists.cgi or if you prefer to peruse and/or download the commented/annotated version of the blacklists at: http://www.e-scrub.com/blacklists/blacklists.txt In either list, the meaning and interpretation of the arguments for the var- ious `Blacklist-IP:', `Blacklist-Domain:' and `Blacklist-User:' directives should be self-explanatory. In the case of the `Blacklist-Header:' directives the first part of the argument is the header name (matched case-insensitively) and the second part (after the second colon on each of these lines) is a string to be searched for (case-sensitive) as a substring in the relevant type of header. (It is left as an exercise for the interested reader how to munge the arguments for these `Blacklist-Header:' directives into function- ally equivalent procmail regular expressions.) The `Domain-Equiv:' directives (visible at present only in the annotated plain text version of the blacklists mentioned above) relate to the anti-forgery filtering feature of my filter. These directive serve to reduce false posi- tives when and if this filter feature is enabled. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From owner-list-managers-list Sun Nov 23 14:44:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA16436; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 14:29:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sportsurf.net (sportsurf.net [192.41.36.58]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id OAA16284 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 14:28:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.204.56.156] (sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156]) by sportsurf.net (8.8.5) id PAA17094; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:31:24 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711232231.PAA17094@sportsurf.net> Subject: Strange Log entries -- what do you all do? Date: Sun, 23 Nov 97 18:41:21 -0000 x-sender: mark@sportsurf.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Mark Rauterkus To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, In the past week, I had a few strange hits from a "hotmail.com" account to my Majordomo@ address. Here is a recent snip from one of the possible bad-boy name harvesters. > {"Jonathan G Peppers" } get Private The get and/or who, which commands don't lead to anything at my site. I saw this last week too, from the above address and another from the same domain. They were hitting in tandem then. I'm looking for advice. Here is what I did -- and what I'm going to do: 1. I sent a personal note to 2 different addresses from hotmail.com asking for them to please identify themselves, explain what their connection is to the topic area of the lists hosted at this site, and told them that the "who" and "which" options have been disabled for privacy reasons and to curb spam activities. 2. I've waited a few days. This happens again. 3. I'm telling you all (list-owners) and I'm going to put this address into my spammers database so that I don't hear from this person again. === Perhaps since nothing is happening with them and my lists (and our subscribers' lists) I should just wait -- and watch -- and sting harder at a later point in time. ?? Check your logs folks. Are you seeing these types of hits? Does anyone have a cool Log filter to run on Majordomo? I don't make a habit of looking too close at the logs and would like to see a red flag or two if it was justified by some internal robot. :) -------------- Mark Rauterkus, Publisher, S.S.S. http://www.sportsurf.net mrauterkus@sportsurf.net http://www.SportSurf.Net/FootNotes FootNotes: Mac E-book authoring and distribution environment with built-in multi-media, lan, web, internet and e-mail capabilities. -------------- From owner-list-managers-list Sun Nov 23 15:27:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA20997; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:19:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id PAA20990 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:19:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kidzen@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA26176; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:21:55 -0800 Received: from erzo.org by erzo.org (8.7.5/LUCK-AND-DEATH-1.3) id XAA03481; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:21:33 GMT Message-Id: <199711232321.XAA03481@erzo.org> To: Mark Rauterkus Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Strange Log entries -- what do you all do? Reply-To: appel@erzo.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:41:21 GMT." <199711232231.PAA17094@sportsurf.net> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:21:32 -0800 From: Shannon Appel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >In the past week, I had a few strange hits from a "hotmail.com" account >to my Majordomo@ address. Here is a recent snip from one of the possible >bad-boy name harvesters. > >> {"Jonathan G Peppers" } get Private > >The get and/or who, which commands don't lead to anything at my site. I >saw this last week too, from the above address and another from the same >domain. They were hitting in tandem then. hotmail puts an advertisement on every damned piece of email they send out: ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Enough said? Shannon From owner-list-managers-list Sun Nov 23 20:42:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA06547; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id UAA06523 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.16.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id TAA19713 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from core0.mx.execpc.com (mailx.norlight.net [169.207.16.4]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.8.6) id VAA28965 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:16:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from presario-7212 (haabassa-14.mdm.mad.execpc.com [169.207.40.143]) by core0.mx.execpc.com (8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA04733 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:15:56 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34764854.381B@execpc.com> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:49:56 -0600 From: Gillam Kerley X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Query: Use of No-Post Status Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On one of the lists to which I subscribe, the list-owner quite frequently sets subscribers to "no-post" for minor offenses, e.g. posting more than 2 messages per day or content which is somewhat heated but certainly (IMO) not in the "flame" category. (This is a very active unmoderated list with a lot of political discussion and subscribers from far right to far left.) The list-owner never informs the subscribers when someone is no-posted; I was unaware until I became his latest victim just how frequent it is. Generally, the no-posted subscriber can get back to post status by contacting the list-owner and promising to sin no more. Frankly, it is beginning to feel like a second-grade classroom with demerits being handed out for talking in class. I had somehow expected that list discipline would be enforced by the subscribers, with anyone who makes too much of an a--h--- of himself getting what-for from the list, and the list-owner getting involved only for major, repeated offenses (death threats, obscenity, etc. My questions for the list-owners/managers/etc. out there: 1. Do you use no-post status as a disciplinary tool for subscribers? 2. If so, what offenses result in no-post status? 3. Do you take the no-post initiative yourself or wait for complaints from other subscribers (either on or off list)? 4. Do you inform the subscribers when someone is no-posted and why? 5. How does a no-posted subscriber get back into post status? And, of course, why do you do it the way you do it, and how is your way working for your list? (I suppose it might help in comparing responses to know what type of list you operate.) Thanks, GK From owner-list-managers-list Sun Nov 23 20:57:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA08241; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id UAA06700 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:35:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from izzy4.izzy.net (izzy4.izzy.net [198.108.102.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id OAA02364 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:50:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from izzy5.izzy.net (izzy5.izzy.net [198.108.102.9]) by izzy4.izzy.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA08382 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:52:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from UUatbbs@localhost) by izzy5.izzy.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) id RAA00072 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:52:53 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: izzy5.izzy.net: UUatbbs set sender to atbbs!dbsmith using -f >Received: by atbbs.com (0.99.970109) id AA02189; 22 Nov 97 18:51:38 -0500 From: dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith) Date: 22 Nov 97 07:02:04 -0500 Message-ID: Organization: American Tune BBS Subject: Re: sunyjefferson.edu To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "FG>From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" "FG>What about Satanists or Marxists or Peruvian Rebels? Is it a good idea "FG>for the net to be organized and/or administered in such a way they can "FG>effectively get bombed off the net by a single dedicated lunatic? Maybe "FG>that hasn't happened (yet), but there is nothing to say that it could not "FG>happen, given the present situation with mailing lists. It has already happened, at least once. Look at the website for IGC, wherein they mention their hosting (as a non-profit providing netspace to non-profits) a web page for an unpopular group of "freedom fighters." They got mailbombed and thoroughly harassed, and they took the page offline. * SLMR 2.1a * * Death causes loneliness, feeling of isolation -- >> David B. Smith | Email sysop@atbbs.com, dbsmith@izzy.net >> Sysop, American Tune BBS | DISCLAIMER: Hey, I -own- the place! >> Anyway, my views are sometimes not even my own, much less anyone else's. >> Host of DEATHLAW Maillist. "Subscribe deathlaw" to listserv@atbbs.com >> Host of SPACELAW Maillist. "Subscribe spacelaw" to listserv@atbbs.com From owner-list-managers-list Sun Nov 23 21:42:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA12734; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id VAA12659 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA24397; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:34:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA13544; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:42:46 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA10170; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:42:44 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199711240542.XAA10170@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Query: Use of No-Post Status To: gkerley@execpc.com (Gillam Kerley) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:42:43 -0600 (CST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <34764854.381B@execpc.com> from "Gillam Kerley" at Nov 21, 97 08:49:56 pm Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > 1. Do you use no-post status as a disciplinary tool for subscribers? Yes, along with warnings by private e-mail and the occasional public censure. > 2. If so, what offenses result in no-post status? Off-topic posts, excessive flaming, violations of copyright, etc. For a full list of the guidelines write to unlfaq@tssi.com. (You will also get the FAQ.) Spamming the list with commercial junk will generally get a subscriber kicked off permanently, though since I went to a four day waiting period I think I've only been spammed once. > 3. Do you take the no-post initiative yourself or wait for complaints > from other subscribers (either on or off list)? It's my list, I enforce the rules I set. I will on occasion take a comment from a subscriber under advisement as to whether to take some action in the future, but I usually have taken action before complaints arrive. > 4. Do you inform the subscribers when someone is no-posted and why? Usually not, I consider that a matter between myself and the person who violated my rules. (That person is, of course, notified.) The most common exception is when someone does something likely to incite others or produce a lot of complaints I may notify subscribers that the offender has been sanctioned. > 5. How does a no-posted subscriber get back into post status? I have a four day waiting period for new subscribers (by rolling over the subscriber list to the authorized address list through three intermediate hold files), so I just take someone out of the live authorized list and the three intermediate holding files, and their posting privileges are automatically reinstated in four days. Most people wise up, a few who don't want to play by MY rules go away, not necessarily quietly. (I've been called a Nazi and a dictator more than once.) > And, of course, why do you do it the way you do it, and how is your way > working for your list? (I suppose it might help in comparing responses > to know what type of list you operate.) I'm running two sports oriented lists, one for the University of Nebraska, with over 1000 subscribers, and one for Northwestern University with around 250 subscribers. I run a 'friendly' list, which means I don't permit protracted/unproductive arguments, namecalling, flamebaiting, foul or abusive language, etc. I also prefer discussion based on some kind of reasoning rather than blind faith. (I do NOT consider these 'fan' lists, since 'fan' is an abridgement of 'fanatic'.) I believe it is possible to have a difference of opinion without getting mad at each other, and civil language is more likely to sway opinion than foul language. With over 50 messages a day I don't have time for true 'moderation', so I use a combination of peer pressure and the occasional sanction to maintain order. (I call it 'moderation by intimidation', with the threat being that of temporary or permanent sanctions.) -- Mike Nolan nolan@tssi.com From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 24 19:27:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA10027; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:25:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sportsurf.net (sportsurf.net [192.41.36.58]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id TAA10020 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:25:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.204.56.156] (sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156]) by sportsurf.net (8.8.5) id UAA22467; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:28:33 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711250328.UAA22467@sportsurf.net> Subject: Re: New spammer blacklists available. Date: Mon, 24 Nov 97 23:38:30 -0000 x-sender: mark@sportsurf.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Mark Rauterkus To: cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, Thanks Ron. >My latest blacklists (sans comments/annotations) can be viewed at: > > http://www.e-scrub.com/cgi-bin/blacklists.cgi > >or if you prefer to peruse and/or download the commented/annotated version >of the blacklists at: > > http://www.e-scrub.com/blacklists/blacklists.txt I'm looking for help on using the above within majordomo.cf for the administrative headers. $admin_headers = <<'END'; /^Content-Type: multipart/mixed/i /^subject:\s*subscribe\b/i >-- stuff snipped --- END Could a regrep pro or two send me an off-line email so I can reply and forward my best effort attempt at merging and expanding these taboo headers? I know I'm off the mark with what I've got now. I don't want to post foolishly before some more qualified brain cells peek at this. Thanks. I'll be back for a summary post, I hope. -------------- Mark Rauterkus, Publisher, S.S.S. http://www.sportsurf.net mrauterkus@sportsurf.net http://www.SportSurf.Net/FootNotes FootNotes: Mac E-book authoring and distribution environment with built-in multi-media, lan, web, internet and e-mail capabilities. -------------- From owner-list-managers-list Mon Nov 24 20:27:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA12565; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:20:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id UAA12550 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:20:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04397 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:23:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA26848 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:22:59 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: New spammer blacklists available. In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:38:30 +0000. <199711250328.UAA22467@sportsurf.net> X-Copyright: (c) 1997 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Reply-To: rfg@monkeys.com Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:22:59 -0800 Message-ID: <26845.880431779@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Regarding: >> http://www.e-scrub.com/cgi-bin/blacklists.cgi and also: >> http://www.e-scrub.com/blacklists/blacklists.txt I should mention two points briefly which come up often in discussions about the header blacklists in particular. First, with regard to the blacklisting of X-UIDL headers, note that it is a generally safe thing to do to discard all incoming messages which already carry this header BEFORE THEY ARE DOWNLOADED VIA A POP3 CLIENT. Such messages will be virtually all 100% spam. Note however that after downloading via POP3, many _legitimate_ non-spam messages may carry this header, so filtering on the presence of that header AFTER DOWNLOADING VIA POP3 is NOT recommended. Also, several people have sent me questions about my blacklisting of: Comment: Authenticated sender is asking if I really intended to discard essentially all mail produced by one of the more popular E-mail clients now in common use, i.e. Pegasus. The answer is ``Of course not!'' The header that Pegasus produces is actually: Comments: Authenticated sender is <...> ^ Note that this uses the plural form of the word `comment', rather than the singular. My testing indicates that the singular form only appears in spam. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From owner-list-managers-list Tue Nov 25 17:56:41 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA09138; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:50:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id RAA09121 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA19406; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:51:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:51:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711260151.RAA19406@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: gkerley@execpc.com CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@shell7.ba.best.com In-reply-to: <34764854.381B@execpc.com> (message from Gillam Kerley on Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:49:56 -0600) Subject: Re: Query: Use of No-Post Status Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I wish I had the option of no-post status. The software I am required to use here at best.com only gives options for full subscription and posting status without recieiving messages. Occasionally I kick someone off the list. This is for the offense of advertising in almost all cases. Every once in a while (like maybe once or twice in 7 years) I'll kick someone off for posting lots of flames, personal attacks, and disruptive posts. This isn't counting the 3 former list members in 1995 who were deliberately disrupting the list. I have one borderline list member now (and a couple potential ones) who belongs on the list (i.e., has the medical problems the list covers) and does contribute worthwhile things. Unforntuately, he also contributes a lot of idiotic posts that just lead to flamewars. And he posts too often. I've warned him like a hundred times and he agrees with me that some of what he posts is "flamebait." For about a year now I've had countless fellow subscribers beg me to kick him off (and some people, very few, asking me not to kick him off...some people have made their dislike of him public, though I never never disiplicine a list member publically). I've hesitated to do so. At the point where he got his very last warning a few months ago, he shaped up and posted hardly anything until recently. And now he's starting on his usual road again. I don't want to kick him off the list because he benefits from it and also does contribute good stuff. I wish I had an inbetween status to give him, such as no-post. I would much rather use that as a "punishment" than kicking him from the list. I mean, unlike advertisers and people who are harressing list members, there is no harm in him reading posts. I also would love a setting that made posts from certain people moderated (had to come through me first) while keeping the rest of the list unmoderated (I don't have the time to approve 10-30 posts a day). My list is a support group/information sharing group for people with certain medical conditions. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 26 13:13:02 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA12862; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero-x.rahul.net (bolero.rahul.net [192.160.13.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id MAA12838 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero-x.rahul.net with SMTP id AA17536 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:59:21 -0800 Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA28250; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:59:15 -0800 Message-Id: <199711262059.AA28250@jive.rahul.net> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Query: Use of No-Post Status In-Reply-To: <199711260151.RAA19406@shell7.ba.best.com> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 12:59:14 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:51:45 -0800 (PST) cnorman@best.com wrote: > I also would love a setting that made posts from certain people > moderated (had to come through me first) while keeping the rest of > the list unmoderated (I don't have the time to approve 10-30 posts a > day). Actually, with a little investment in learning procmail, this could be done by yourself without Best changing their mail software. Simply set your list to moderated and use procmail to automatically approve posts except the ones you wish to moderate yourself. You could also use procmail to put someone on 'no post' by having it send an automatic response to attempts to post and not approving them. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 26 14:42:08 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA26931; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from sportsurf.net (sportsurf.net [192.41.36.58]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id OAA26914 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:27:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.204.56.156] (sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156]) by sportsurf.net (8.8.5) id PAA23994; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:29:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711262229.PAA23994@sportsurf.net> Subject: Re: Query: Use of No-Post Status Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 18:39:16 -0000 x-sender: mark@sportsurf.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Mark Rauterkus To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I recall reading of an "always bounce-post status patch." Less than 45 days ago a perons on majordomo-users posted a patch that he had made for MJ. It allowed for a special text file to hold a list of addresses. These addresses had their email messages always set to bounce to the list-owner whenever they tried to make a post to the list. Then the list-owner could approve the message or not -- before the list subscribers at large. As a list-owner - one huge benefit was to only need to approve messages from those in that file -- and not everyone else. This looks like the exact thing you are looking for. I think that the code/patch was posted to the whole list. That thread was short -- and you might search the archives for "fired" as it was done I think for a recently fired employee who may have wanted to pick a bone with some on the list in public. Good luck in finding it. Better luck in running it. Please post a follow-up message if you are successful as I'd like to use the same thing -- but I've yet to do the whole patch thing. >Actually, with a little investment in learning procmail, Where/what are the best learing resources (other than the code itself and trial/error) for procmail? Well, let's not stop there with procmail. What/where are the best resources (learning and interaction such as this list) for the following? Sendmail: Procmail: UNIX OS: Shell Scripts: PERL: Regular Expressions: If you send your pointers to me, I'll conbine them all into a newbie's FAQ. -------------- Mark Rauterkus, Publisher, S.S.S. http://www.sportsurf.net mrauterkus@sportsurf.net http://www.SportSurf.Net/FootNotes FootNotes: Mac E-book authoring and distribution environment with built-in multi-media, lan, web, internet and e-mail capabilities. -------------- From owner-list-managers-list Wed Nov 26 23:33:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA08985; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id XAA08975 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:11:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id HAA00329 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:37:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA03482 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:43:26 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id CAA03765; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:42:07 +0600 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:42:06 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Reply-To: fygrave@usa.net To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Creating a list.. Message-ID: X-lummer: Bill Gates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, just joined this list.. Sorry if questions seem off-topic, but that's how i understood it.. well the questions are: 1. Is it possible to create m.list with authentification of senders *(say to allow only specific persons to send email to the list) without writing my own code. (i have done such, but.. did i it for a vein?:) 2. Is it possible to create lists with PGP auth. (checking signatures etc..)? and.. mm..:) 0. ANyone would be so kind as to host some of my m-list projects, since my box has uucp connections only, which are too slow for m-list. Thanks Best Regards Fyodor --- Fyodor Yarochkin email:fygrave@usa.net http://www.tigerteam.net/linuxgroup/ tel:(3312) 474465 "Optima philosophia et sapientia est meditatio mortis." From owner-list-managers-list Thu Nov 27 00:12:03 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA12219; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:59:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.254.96.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id XAA12202 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:59:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA01317; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 03:00:54 -0500 X-Sender: humour@humournet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34764854.381B@execpc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 02:58:22 -0500 To: Gillam Kerley , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Query: Use of No-Post Status Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 21:49 -0500 11/21/97, Gillam Kerley sent everyone: >My questions for the list-owners/managers/etc. out there: > >1. Do you use no-post status as a disciplinary tool for subscribers? Yes. More often, I use REVIEW (so their posts are sent to the listmoms for approval). >2. If so, what offenses result in no-post status? Most often, anything that is of an "inflammatory" nature. The definition of that word is list dependent. >3. Do you take the no-post initiative yourself or wait for complaints >from other subscribers (either on or off list)? Yes. ;-) >4. Do you inform the subscribers when someone is no-posted and why? Often, but not always. (Unless I screw up and post my "I just NOPOSTed Gilliam" message to the list. *sigh*) When I do: If the message has a high risk of erupting into flames, or if I need to send a clear message to the list that [whatever was in the post that led to NOPOST status being invoke] will not be tolerated on the list. When I don't: Quite frankly, when the reason for the NOPOST is not immediately clear to anyone who has not been following this poster's habits -- and thus runs the risk of my having to get into long explanations, complete circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one is (heh -- it *is* Thanksgiving ). I *hate* having to go into explanations. Either way, these are the rarer cases, by far. >5. How does a no-posted subscriber get back into post status? Certified cheque. And/or sincere apology with assurances that he promises to be a good boy in the future. Or maybe he's simply restored automatically after a "cooling off" period. Depends on the circumstances, and depends on what I know of this poster's previous posting habits. >And, of course, why do you do it the way you do it, Because I'm me. >and how is your way working for your list? Well, it seems to provide everyone with a clear idea of what I believe is "acceptable" and "unacceptable." And it results in the occasional on-list discussion of what's "right" for the list -- which is good (albeit tiring), since that gives *me* feedback on what the list members want for the list. And the bottom line is: I'm there to make the list work for them. I answer to what I perceive as the majority vote. Yes, it really ends up being the "more vocal" vote -- even including the off-list messages that I get. But it's like any other election: If you don't vote, don't complain! >(I suppose it might help in comparing responses >to know what type of list you operate.) I run five discussion lists and one announcement-style list. I am solely referring to the discussion lists here. They range in size from 20 subscribers to 1200 subscribers. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre: vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam! Behind every successful man Behind every successful man is a is a surprised woman woman with expensive taste -- Maryon Pearson -- Vince Sabio