From owner-list-managers-list Mon Dec 1 23:57:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA07706; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:24:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id XAA07677 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom15.netcom.com (netcom15.netcom.com [192.100.81.128]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id VAA05789 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (grafolog@localhost) by netcom15.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) with SMTP id VAA05813 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:37:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 05:37:39 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon X-Sender: grafolog@netcom15 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Clueless subscribers? Message-ID: x-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk All: I discovered yesterday that I was the first person to be able to successfully unzubscribe from a mailing list, without having to get the list-owner's help. << It appears that people don't know how to send a confirmation message. >> In the last five weeks, I've helped launch five mailing lists, that cover similar topics to that list, and for every individual that has successfully zubscribed to one of those lists, I've had 50 complain that they can't zubscribe to these lists becuase the zubscribe mechanism doesn't work. << Again, it appears that people don't know how to either send an original message to the right address, or a confirmation message, when one is requested. >> A semi-typical example, is the person who tried to set herself to NOMAIL. She knows the listname is list-l, but sends a message to "set nomail list-1." And then complains because it doesn't set list-l to nomail, but generates an error message. Is this degree of cluelessness something that _might_ be specific to the lists I run, or is it a general phenomena? If it is the latter, what action are other list-owners taking, to combat it? << Other than using them as fodder for HumourNet. >> xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com I accidentally wrote "will hack Python for food" in my cover letter. The company decided that was enough of a recommendation to hire me as their sole SysAdmin. From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 2 02:30:48 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA25003; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 01:46:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sky.net (solar.sky.net [209.90.0.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id BAA21631 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 01:17:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sky.net.sky.net (ts-1-ip11.kc.sky.net [209.90.4.75]) by sky.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA11711; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 03:10:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199712020910.DAA11711@sky.net> X-Sender: price@sky.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Release Candidate 3 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 03:10:29 -0600 To: jonathon , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Allen Rice Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 05:37 AM 11/27/97 +0000, the following was written by jonathon... <-<-<-<-<-<-Start of Quoted Material > > I discovered yesterday that I was the first person to be > able to successfully unzubscribe from a mailing list, without > having to get the list-owner's help. << It appears that > people don't know how to send a confirmation message. >> > Is this degree of cluelessness something that _might_ be > specific to the lists I run, or is it a general phenomena? > <-<-<-<-<-<-End of Quoted Material Actually, and I will stick to this til my dying day..., it's a case of people not reading what they get. I mean, geez, how much more plain can you get than what comes in the confirmation message? Well, admittedly, they could be written a little better. The confirmation message tends to be a little over-verbose. Simply put, they are asking "Do you REALLY want to subscribe to this mailing list? If so hit the reply button and send this back to me. Otherwise trash me." So why do we have to rewrite War and Peace to say that? But even those lists that do not require confirmations get their share of cluelessness. Seems a lot of people just make up their own rules for how this sh*t works. I had one reader last week make attempt after attempt after attempt to get off one of my lists and then had the audacity to cuss me out in a message to the owner address that my list server wasn't working. I looked at his attempts that he had forwarded to me (and I also compared them to the bounced messaged I had from him all week long) and in every case )all seven of them) the luser left the first 'B' out of the word 'unsubscribe'. At the bottom of every list message I have a hyperlink that sets up the unsub command perfectly in well behaved mail clients. However, people have done so many things with that link that I can't believe it. One user cut and past the entire link from the < to the > into the subject of the message and sent it to the list address. And the problem isn't unique to the clueless users either. Even the supposedly informed members of the internet's sysadmin circle don't understand this stuff either. After sending my generic "you've sent the command to the wrong address, the correct address is..." message to the same user in Holland over ten times one week, I get a message from his ISP's sysadmin telling me my autoresponder is broke. I made up for it by banning their domain. Am I the only one around here that gets sadistic pleasure from unsubscribing list members for bounces and random acts of stupidity like that? :-) Sometimes I feel like people who don't have enough intelligence to figure out how to get off a list deserve every piece of mail they get. Other times I wish they never got on. Clueless? P:ossibly. How do we deal with it? I've been trying to find that out myself. At first I was very hard nosed about it. I wouldn't manually take a member of a list until he proved to me beyond a doubt that MD was screwed so badly that he couldn't get off the list. I wouldn't honore manual add/remove requests at all. I was out to "educate the subscriber" Nowdays, I boot''em before their send key cools down. If anyone comes up with the solution, please CC it to my address???? Thanks. Paul ------------------------------------------------------------ (o)(o) Paul Allen Rice > Listowner: CircleJoke and Underground Mailing Lists \/ Homepage: ------------------------------------------------------------ "We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." --Robert Wilensky, University of California ------------------------------------------------------------ Support the anti-Spam amendment, go to http://www.cauce.org ------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 2 08:01:17 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA14305; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 07:51:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from firewall.edvg.co.at (firewall.edvg.co.at [192.164.36.131]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id HAA14280 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 07:50:47 -0800 (PST) X-Lotus-Fromdomain: EDVG From: Niels_Hansa@edvg.co.at (Niels Hansa) To: Message-Id: Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:44:16 +0200 Subject: Q: How to make Majordomo look for approval where I what him to.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Loopind: 1 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi! I have a problem: I am using Majordomo 1.94.1 on a Red Hat Linux System with Perl 5.003. Now a customer of ours wants to use Majordomo to distribute HTML mail. He wants to use the "Send Page..." Tool of Netscape Communicator 4.03. He needs to utilize a moderated list for distribution, since it is a information list. What happens is, that HTML mials are sent by Netscape as Mime multipart and Majordomo always bounces the mail back for approval. What I need is a "perl hack" that makes Majordomo look for approval passwd not only in the first line but in a specified amount of lines. Thats IMHO the only way to get Mime multipart through a moderated list. Please tell me how to get accomplish that! Here an example of what the HTML mail looks like From: tech@connect-austria.at (tech) Reply-To: tech@connect-austria.at (tech) Organization: Connect Austria GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: test Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2B92821FEBEDC8BB05F2EA6C" X-Loopind: 1 Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2B92821FEBEDC8BB05F2EA6C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Approved: xxx http://www.connect-austria.at/html/tech/tech1.html --------------2B92821FEBEDC8BB05F2EA6C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="tech1.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="tech1.html" Content-Base: "http://www.connect-austria.at/html/tec h/tech1.html" ... --------------2B92821FEBEDC8BB05F2EA6C-- greetings, Niels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EDVg-debis Systemhaus GmbH & Co. KG Competence Center - Network Applications Niels A. Hansa Internet Spezialanwendungen Hofmuehlgasse 3-5, A-1060 Wien Tel.: +43 (1) 59903-1327 Fax.: +43 (1) 59903-1399 Email: Niels_Hansa@edvg.co.at WWW: http://www.edvg.co.at From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 2 10:43:48 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA23721; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:27:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from blackhole.dimensional.com (blackhole.dimensional.com [208.206.176.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id JAA23699 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:27:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from flatland.dimensional.com (tedsmith@flatland.dimensional.com [208.206.176.24]) by blackhole.dimensional.com (8.8.7/8.8.nospam) with SMTP id KAA27540; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:29:49 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:29:48 -0700 (MST) From: Theodore M Smith To: jonathon cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, jonathon wrote: > I discovered yesterday that I was the first person to be > able to successfully unzubscribe from a mailing list, without > having to get the list-owner's help. << It appears that > people don't know how to send a confirmation message. >> > > In the last five weeks, I've helped launch five mailing lists, > that cover similar topics to that list, and for every individual > that has successfully > zubscribed to one of those lists, I've had 50 complain that they > can't zubscribe to these lists becuase the zubscribe mechanism > doesn't work. Your software may be having more problems with those zubscribe and unzuscribe commands than you realize. Respectfully yours, Ted Smith Denver, Colorado Where we always walk a mile high. From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 2 10:58:45 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA28354; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:50:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.geo.net (mail1.geo.net [166.90.101.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id JAA28317 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:49:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23224 invoked from network); 2 Dec 1997 17:52:51 -0000 Received: from electra.znyx.com (root@209.0.10.2) by mail1.geo.net with SMTP; 2 Dec 1997 17:52:51 -0000 Received: from alan.znyx.com (alan.znyx.com [209.0.10.4]) by electra.znyx.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14966 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:50:46 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971202183824.00e74100@electra.znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@electra.znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 10:38:24 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Alan Deikman Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 05:37 AM 11/27/97 +0000, the following was written by jonathon... > Is this degree of cluelessness something that _might_ be > specific to the lists I run, or is it a general phenomena? >From Paul Allen Rice: > > >If anyone comes up with the solution, please CC it to my address???? Thanks. > > I kinda hate to point out the obvious, but has it ever occurred to either of you that you are in the wrong vocation/hobby/profession (whatever word applies) if this sort of thing bothers you? Whine whine whine. Have you ever seen what airline gate agents put up with? Telephone operators? Traffic cops? ANYONE who deals with the public on a regular basis? Most of these people would sneer at what you seem to consider a major tribulation. And you don't even have to deal with halitosis. Kitchen --> Heat. Out of Kitchen --> No Heat. Seems simple to me. So who is clueless? Yes, the appalling lack of literacy of the dear public is a generally known phenomenon. I read that more than 50% of Americans cannot address a letter properly, and cannot identify what state they live in when given a map without labeling. It's not surprising, jonathon, that they don't read your clearly worded instructions. Face it, boys, the reason you are running mailing lists is that you wanted to be the center/master/controller/authority of whatever topic you happened to grab onto. I know you're not getting paid, but you don't have to do it either. I'll bet you can find dozens that will take over your lists for you if it is too much of a burden. Otherwise, just consider it part of the overhead involved. -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 2 14:00:43 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA08403; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from smsltd.demon.co.uk (smsltd.demon.co.uk [158.152.67.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id NAA08240 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:21:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 21:09:47 GMT From: njh@smsltd.demon.co.uk (Nigel Horne) Reply-To: njh@smsltd.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <32152@smsltd.demon.co.uk> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V6 #234 Organisation: Wharfedale Computers Ltd. X-Mailer: PCElm 1.11 Lines: 13 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Is this degree of cluelessness something that _might_ be > specific to the lists I run, or is it a general phenomena? No, its just that computers are being used by less computer literate people. This is to be expected - I drive a car but it doesn't mean that I can fix it when it breaks down. You just need to be more tolerant with people with less knowledge, or less interest in the 'inards' than you. -Nigel -- Nigel Horne, Wharfedale Computers Ltd. Internet: njh@smsltd.demon.co.uk http://www.smsltd.demon.co.uk/software.htm. From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 2 14:10:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA14670; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:50:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from revnet1.revnet.com (revnet1.revnet.com [198.51.35.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id NAA14476 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:49:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from majestic.revnet.com (majestic.revnet.com [198.51.35.45]) by revnet1.revnet.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA23778; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:42:55 -0600 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:35:34 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCFF37.EE16FF60.mmead@revnet.com> From: Marc Mead Reply-To: "mmead@revnet.com" To: "'jonathon'" , "List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: RE: Clueless subscribers? Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:35:33 -0600 Organization: Revnet Systems X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, November 26, 1997 11:38 PM, jonathon [SMTP:grafolog@netcom.com] wrote: > I discovered yesterday that I was the first person to be > able to successfully unzubscribe from a mailing list, without > having to get the list-owner's help. << It appears that > people don't know how to send a confirmation message. >> An alternative solution to this perennial problem is to move on to newer mail list management technology. There are many web-enabled listservers on the market now, including my company's GroupMaster. Each outgoing message can have a URL in the footer that allows for *instant* unsubscribe---no typing, no replying, no sending---just use that handy mouse to click your way off a list via the browser (traditional methods are also supported). Yes, most die-hards still don't use a browser and email in tandem, and yes, many die-hards use text based clients that don't support 'hot' URLs. However, these experienced users (like you & I) usually find their way off any list type---it's the AOLers and newbies that screw up. So, follow this logic: 1. Newbies are comfortable with simple GUIs & clicking mice. 2. Give them a way to manage their list subscriptions with a GUI (web in GroupMaster's case) 3. They cease to screw up their subscriptions. 4. They quit bugging & cursing you. 5. Your blood pressure decreases, your free time increases. Just an alternative to consider, Marc Mead http://www.groupmaster.com From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 2 14:19:20 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA27789; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:29:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id MAA27737 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:29:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id OAA07455 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 14:32:40 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199712022032.OAA07455@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 14:33:32 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11/27/97 12:37 AM, jonathon wrote... > Is this degree of cluelessness something that _might_ be > specific to the lists I run, or is it a general phenomena? A little bit of both. I tend to find that certain segments of society and the online world have a harder time than others. For example, a list I run for fiction writers has more problem subscribers than a list I run for science fiction fans. Users of online services tend to have more problems than users of ISPs. But overall, as the net becomes more and more mass-market, you get more and more people who can't follow simple directions. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 2 19:42:51 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA01222; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:34:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.254.96.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id TAA01165 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA06315; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:34:12 -0500 X-Sender: humour@humournet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:31:16 -0500 To: jonathon , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 0:37 -0500 11/27/97, jonathon sent everyone: > A semi-typical example, is the person who tried to set > herself to NOMAIL. She knows the listname is list-l, but > sends a message to "set nomail list-1." And then complains > because it doesn't set list-l to nomail, but generates an > error message. Yup. > Is this degree of cluelessness something that _might_ be > specific to the lists I run, or is it a general phenomena? Pretty general. People don't pay attention. Don't worry about it, though -- these are the same people who are hit and killed by busses while crossing the street. Thus, they'll eventually "disappear" from the list. The key is to have a good bounce handling capability. ;-) (The sad part is, of course, that they generally work in tag-team fashion -- the body is barely even cool following one bus-inspired cleansing, and a Clueless Person(tm) is already subscribing to fill the gap. Sometimes two of them.) > If it is the latter, what action are other list-owners taking, > to combat it? Yes. One of my lists is named mac-l. In all of the documentation that *I* write, I denote the list as "Mac-L" or "mac-L"; capitalizing the "L" makes it easier to read as an "L" and not a "1". ><< Other than using them as fodder for HumourNet. >> Well, sure, there's THAT ... ** Sometime around 13:38 -0500 12/2/97, Alan Deikman said: >Whine whine whine. Hmmm. WHO is whining? >Have you ever seen what airline gate agents >put up with? Telephone operators? Traffic cops? ANYONE who >deals with the public on a regular basis? Most of these people >would sneer at what you seem to consider a major tribulation. >And you don't even have to deal with halitosis. > >Kitchen --> Heat. Out of Kitchen --> No Heat. Seems simple >to me. So who is clueless? Eh. It's not only standard, it's healthy. Ever heard a bunch of nurses when they gt together? Let me tell you, if I even land in the hospital, I'm going to be one DAMNED well-bahaved little boy. Ever hear cops rant about the idiots they have to deal with? How about accountants? Hell, my mom's a kindergarten teacher -- and some of the stories/rants/complaints that those teachers share would make your ears curl. Should they all quit their professions? Nah. It's just blowing off steam. As long as it's done in the company of those who can relate to the pain -- instead of those who are CAUSING the pain -- I don't think it's a big deal. In fact, it probably keeps many of us out of the shrinks' offices. Which, BTW, I'm not really convinced is A Good Thing ... ;-) __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre: vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam! Behind every successful man Behind every successful man is a is a surprised woman woman with expensive taste -- Maryon Pearson -- Vince Sabio From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 2 20:27:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA09428; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 20:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id UAA09391 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 20:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from huitzilo.tezcat.com (adamb@huitzilo.tezcat.com [204.128.247.17]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id WAA12893 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:17:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:17:20 -0600 (CST) From: Adam Bailey To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? (Was: Re: List-Managers-Digest V6 #234) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 12/2/97 4:09 PM, Nigel Horne wrote... >> Is this degree of cluelessness something that _might_ be >> specific to the lists I run, or is it a general phenomena? > >No, its just that computers are being used by less computer literate people. >This is to be expected - I drive a car but it doesn't mean that I can fix >it when it breaks down. Not a good analogy. I don't know how to fix my car either, but the print over the gas gague says "Unleaded Fuel Only." And so I don't put leaded fuel into my car. The problem is, people THINK that anything on the computer is too complicated for them. I've sat down with people and read over the instructions with them, and when they actually paid attention and read it with their brain turned on, they knew right away what to do. But many people just see a bunch of text with big words, and automatically figure they can't do whatever it is. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 2 20:57:41 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA15367; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 20:44:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from commedia.cnds.jhu.edu (commedia.cnds.jhu.edu [128.220.231.250]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id UAA15360 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 20:44:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dshaw@localhost) by commedia.cnds.jhu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA02395; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:47:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19971202234751.64842@cnds.jhu.edu> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:47:51 -0500 From: David Shaw To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? References: <199712022032.OAA07455@quilla.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <199712022032.OAA07455@quilla.tezcat.com>; from Adam Bailey on Tue, Dec 02, 1997 at 02:33:32PM -0500 Organization: Computer Science Department, The Johns Hopkins University X-PGP-Fingerprint: D79D345/1048/93 5A E2 39 4A 2A 45 A3 ED 46 9F F1 26 45 37 DF X-URL: http://www.jabberwocky.com/ X-Phase-Of-Moon: The Moon is Waxing Crescent (11% of Full) X-Current-Email-Backlog: 188 X-Pointless-Random-Number: 182 X-Silly-Header: It sure is. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, Dec 02, 1997 at 02:33:32PM -0500, Adam Bailey wrote: > On 11/27/97 12:37 AM, jonathon wrote... > > > Is this degree of cluelessness something that _might_ be > > specific to the lists I run, or is it a general phenomena? > > A little bit of both. I tend to find that certain segments of society and > the online world have a harder time than others. For example, a list I > run for fiction writers has more problem subscribers than a list I run > for science fiction fans. Users of online services tend to have more > problems than users of ISPs. But overall, as the net becomes more and > more mass-market, you get more and more people who can't follow simple > directions. As it was so wisely put in the majordomo config file: # Set the default subscribe policy for new lists here. # If not defined, defaults to "open", but in today's increasingly # imbecile Internet, "open+confirm" or "auto+confirm" is a wiser # choice for publicly available Majordomo servers. David -- David Shaw | dshaw@cs.jhu.edu | WWW http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~dshaw/ +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence." - Jeremy S. Anderson From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 00:27:53 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA09897; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:24:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id WAA28562 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:37:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA09034 ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:32:03 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:13:26 -0800 To: Vince Sabio , jonathon , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:31 PM -0800 12/2/97, Vince Sabio wrote: > Pretty general. People don't pay attention. Don't worry about it, > though Don't worry about it *until* you know whether or not its your problem. Do you know what your error rate is? If you have 200 admin operations a day and 5 of them are bad, it ain't your fault. It's pilot error. If you have 50 admin operations a day and 5 of them are bad, then you better go find out why and fix the problem. Don't just assume it's stupid users. Maybe it's stupid or unclear documentation. I just rewrote a bunch of mine (actually, I'm about 1/4 done, but the first key piece is in) because I went and logged both errors and user reports, and found a huge percentage of errors were because the documentation confused people. How many list admins know what their error rates are? How many know they HAD one? Generally, mine is between 1-2% a day. one or two botches out of 100. Not bad, IMHO, but higher than it should be. If users are having problems, ask them why. analyze the errors and see if there are themes, or ways to help those willing to be helped. You'll never help the truly clueless, but until you study what's going on, how do you know they are truly clueless? If you've got an error rate of 10% (and I've seen lists that high), it ain't the users... but you don't know until you check... I've pretty literally spent the last year looking for and studying list issues like this, and you'd be amazed at what a few well-placed signposts can do. But you can't put down signposts at random, you have to know where people are getting lost. (and yes, one of my upcoming projects is to write up as much of this as I can, but it's a secondary project to actually implementing the rest of the beast. And one key future is figuring out how to build reports and formal metrics that can be argued over, refined and adopted, so that they're useful to people other than me -- because I know my sites well enough know to intuitively know when something's skew, but that doesn't help make things something someone else can administer easily....). -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 01:42:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA06621; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 01:35:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id BAA06553 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 01:34:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.bishkek.su (fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA03356 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:40:35 +0500 Received: (from fygrave@localhost) by freenet.bishkek.su (8.8.4/8.6.12) id OAA10747; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:40:08 +0600 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:40:07 +0600 (GMT+0500) From: Fyodor Reply-To: fygrave@usa.net To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Majorodomo question Message-ID: X-lummer: Bill Gates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, Just wondering, b/c here i develop some similar thing: where does majordomo read incommming messages for processing storing it into files, or saves temporally in memory? [ sorry i just don't have majordomo source around ] --- Fyodor Yarochkin email:fygrave@usa.net http://www.tigerteam.net/linuxgroup/ tel:(3312) 474465 "Optima philosophia et sapientia est meditatio mortis." From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 06:28:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA09590; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 06:15:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from leslie.mystery.com (leslie.mystery.com [198.202.235.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id GAA09421 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 06:14:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from angus.mystery.com (audrey@angus.mystery.com [198.202.235.1]) by leslie.mystery.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23635 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:17:18 -0500 Received: (from audrey@localhost) by angus.mystery.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08876 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:17:16 -0500 From: Audrey Helou Message-Id: <199712031417.JAA08876@angus.mystery.com> Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V6 #235 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:17:16 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199712030946.BAA08429@honor.greatcircle.com> from "List-Managers-Digest" at Dec 3, 97 01:46:40 am Reply-To: audrey@mystery.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Adam Bailey wrote: > Not a good analogy. I don't know how to fix my car either, but the print > over the gas gague says "Unleaded Fuel Only." And so I don't put leaded > fuel into my car. *You* may not put leaded fuel into your car because of the print, but doing so was a serious problem until the pump folks made the nozzles different sizes. The nozzles for leaded fuels are larger than those for unleaded fuels and won't fit. Audrey -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=audrey@mystery.com From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 06:59:49 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA18021; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 06:55:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id GAA18001 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 06:54:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09239 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:57:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA00850 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:57:26 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA07354 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:57:24 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199712031457.IAA07354@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Clueless To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:57:24 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Not a good analogy. I don't know how to fix my car either, but the print > > over the gas gague says "Unleaded Fuel Only." And so I don't put leaded > > fuel into my car. > > *You* may not put leaded fuel into your car because of the print, but > doing so was a serious problem until the pump folks made the nozzles > different sizes. The nozzles for leaded fuels are larger than those for > unleaded fuels and won't fit. There are at least two possible explanations for that behavior. One is the 'gas is gas' theory, the other is that '$1.15 gas is cheaper than '$1.25' gas, and as I recall leaded gas was generally cheaper during those confusing days. (Does anybody still sell leaded gas?) Likewise, I think there are at least three explanation for 'cluelessness'. 1. Bad instructions 2. Lazy users (why read the instructions?) 3. True cluelessness (not always attributable to 'newness') In my estimation, there are probably more people in the second category than in the first and third categories added up, but I'm firmly of the opinion that good instructions can reduce the counts in the third category, and _might_ even have some impact on the second one. However, as a list manager, I've had to accept that not everybody who gets on my list is going to be the type of subscriber I would choose, including the PITA's and clueless ones. Although I get annoyed with both types on occasion, they're just part of the landscape. -- Mike Nolan From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 08:47:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA05526; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:11:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id IAA05395 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:11:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <199712031611.claire.97120600@siberia.demon.co.uk> From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:11:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? (Was: Re: List-Managers-Digest V6 #23 Reply-to: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2 Dec 97 at 22:17, Adam Bailey puddy cat purred: > The problem is, people THINK that anything on the computer is too > complicated for them. I've sat down with people and read over the > instructions with them, and when they actually paid attention and read > it with their brain turned on, they knew right away what to do. But > many people just see a bunch of text with big words, and automatically > figure they can't do whatever it is. I'd second that. I find it very much the same when giving ppl help over the 'phone: ppl are intimidated by computers, and scared of instructions. If led gently, they can see what they are doing. Most list instructions are much too verbose, and most are badly written (IMO, the *worst* instructions are those that LISTSERV sends in response to a "help" request: even I, as a list admin, systems consultant, programmer etc, find them intimidating and unhelpful). Like Chuq, I've analysed user errors on my lists, and am rewriting most of my help files. One thing that really seems to help is a good webpage, with an index at the start to key questions: "How do I leave the list", "How do I switch email addresses" etc. Another thing, is to answer the most important instructions at the start of the dcument: e.g. how to leave the list. But above all, instructions should be subject to the same test as other public documents: put them out for review by the non-technical, and listen carefully to their feedback. Best of all, take a few non-techie people and sit down with them time at a time when they are tired and see what they make of your instructions -- that's a very good test, because a lot of folks read their list mail in the evenings, when they are tired. I know that Microsoft is not popular amongst techies (and I'll rant abt them all day at the technical level), but their useability labs have done wonders for the approachability of their software. We can all learn from the methodology. It's far too easy to assume that because it make sense to us, it makes sense to the users: if it doesn't, we should be prepared to accept that this is often *our* fault: e.g. the variety of unsubscribe mechanisms on difft lists really confuses folks, so I'm setting up mechanisms to allow ppl to mail to "listname-off@server" to unsub. People can understand that. The final thing is that we should all remember what our lists are *for*. Technical lists may be a difft ballgame, but my lists are support lists, and I regard it as one of my key tasks as an admin to give ppl the technical help needed to let them participate in the group. That includes everything from helping with listserver commands to finding anonymous mail accounts to choosing mail clients and learning how to filter messages into folders so that the list doesn't clog up their mailboxes. The few times I've growled at ppl, I generally regret it. Most ppl really do want support lists to work well, and they want to cause minimum disruption to other users and to the admins. Help them through the difficulties, and the results will be reflected in the list's success. Best wishes, Claire -- Claire McNab -- Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 10:13:06 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA15887; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:42:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu (BROCCOLI.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.53]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id JAA15873 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from graphics.cornell.edu (LOCALHOST) by broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA067801133; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:45:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199712031745.AA067801133@broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, mkc@broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 03 Dec 1997 16:11:31 GMT." <199712031611.claire.97120600@siberia.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 12:45:32 -0500 From: Mitch Collinsworth Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >the >variety of uns*bscribe mechanisms on difft lists really confuses folks, >so I'm setting up mechanisms to allow ppl to mail to >"listname-off@server" to uns*b. People can understand that. Oh great. There are too many different uns*b mechanisms out there and people are getting being confused by it, so your solution is to invent yet another one. Yah, I follow that logic. (not) -Mitch -- "Families can't trust Disney" From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 10:57:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA22976; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from nucleus.com (nucleus.com [199.45.65.129]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id KAA22933 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:48:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.34.64.181] ([207.34.64.181]) by nucleus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8-NIS-11-28.97) with ESMTP id MAA08459 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:01:12 -0700 (MST) X-Sender: grant@pop1.achilles.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199712031745.AA067801133@broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu> References: Your message of "Wed, 03 Dec 1997 16:11:31 GMT." <199712031611.claire.97120600@siberia.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:55:04 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Grant Neufeld Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:45 AM -0700 1997/12/3, Mitch Collinsworth wrote: >>the >>variety of uns*bscribe mechanisms on difft lists really confuses folks, >>so I'm setting up mechanisms to allow ppl to mail to >>"listname-off@server" to uns*b. People can understand that. > >Oh great. There are too many different uns*b mechanisms out there and >people are getting being confused by it, so your solution is to invent >yet another one. Yah, I follow that logic. (not) It's not a new method - I've seen it used successfully by a number of lists (I'm on a few lists, one of which has been using it for more than a couple years). It is the simplest approach you can take with email based commands, and probably the best for most end users. -- "When all else fails, read the instructions." grant@acm.org grant@kagi.com http://arpp.carleton.ca/ O- <*> From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 11:12:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA23562; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:53:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id KAA23507 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:53:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from outlawnet.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id KAA03712; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:55:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [163.185.152.110] (sedalia-at35.access.sinet.slb.com [163.185.152.110]) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA03674 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:55:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199712030946.BAA08429@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:54:54 -0600 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Gary E. Bickford" Subject: An alternative to spamming? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keeping it short... I don't like spam, but also have need to promote things occasionally, on the net. So, I thought of a possible middle ground, which I'd like to bounce off the folks on this list. Is it ethical/tolerable to use a "referred mail" approach? By this I mean, send mail to people I know, or _conservatively_ have reason to believe are interested in, for instance, a particular shareware product, with a request to forward to others they think may be interested in the product? What if there is a moderate, real incentive to do so, such as a point system of rewards for referrals? To avoid others spamming with this, I would also include a statement of distribution rules, to the effect that the message may not be sent unsolicited to large groups, or posted on lists except by permission of the list owner, and then only when it is relevant and useful to the recipients of the list. I am aware that this approach, if taken to its extreme could become chainmail, which I abhor as well. But it seems to me that is not the case if it is done right. Without going into a lot of detail, I'd like some opinions, including general comments and suggestions for how to provide the proper wording for the proper distributiion rules. Flame On!! :) GEB From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 11:15:36 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA22942; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:48:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from nucleus.com (nucleus.com [199.45.65.129]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id KAA22932 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:48:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.34.64.181] ([207.34.64.181]) by nucleus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8-NIS-11-28.97) with ESMTP id MAA08412 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:01:02 -0700 (MST) X-Sender: grant@pop1.achilles.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199712031611.claire.97120600@siberia.demon.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:51:23 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Grant Neufeld Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One thing I've done with my list instructions is to break them up into three main sections (with the name, address and URL of the list in a centered heading at the top). The sections are labeled with headers like this for the first one: __________________ QUICK INSTRUCTIONS The first section contains very short lines of text, with plenty of whitespace so it looks even more like just a tiny bit of text, describing how to join and get off the list. The next section - "ABOUT THIS LIST" - is the "description" of the list - describing the topic and suitable areas of discussion. The last section - "DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS" - provides full instructions for all available commands and how to post to the list. The help messages are posted to my lists once a month. The other thing is using the List- header fields. This list, for example, could have fields like: X-List-Post: X-List-Unsubscribe: X-List-Subscribe: X-List-Archive: X-List-Help: X-List-Owner: -- grant@acm.org grant@kagi.com http://arpp.carleton.ca/ O- <*> I accept MIME PGP: 4077 8306 9115 94B0 CEA6 F4F4 3B9A 9482 D158 7B9A http://arpp.carleton.ca/grant/pgpkey.txt From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 11:59:04 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA04680; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexus.pigsfly.com (www.pigsfly.com [207.226.166.137]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id LAA04575 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:48:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pslfl5-54.gate.net ([199.227.131.54]) by nexus.pigsfly.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-40113U100L100S0) with SMTP id AAA262; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:54:41 +0000 From: jtlist@pigsfly.com (Jerry Trowbridge) To: jonathon Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:51:57 GMT Organization: Flying Pig Ranch Reply-To: jtlist@pigsfly.com Message-ID: <3488aec1.12587429@pop.pigsfly.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 27 Nov 1997 05:37:39 +0000 (GMT), jonathon wrote: > Is this degree of cluelessness something that _might_ be > specific to the lists I run, or is it a general phenomena? > > If it is the latter, what action are other list-owners taking, > to combat it? << Other than using them as fodder for > HumourNet. >> We run lists for non-linear video editors---people who edit video on high-end NT machines using programs like Speedrazor and Digital Fusion. These are tremendously complex pieces of software, and the hardware needs to be able to play back NTSC video and 44.1 stereo audio in sync, so these are pretty sophistcated users. We've had people try to subscribe the list to itself, try to subscribe the request address to the list, and all manner of truly brain-dead actions. When we were under petidomo (a mini-majordomo written in C), a friend did a cgi-script web interface along the line discussed here which helped a lot. When we moved to post.office, its lists also had a web interface, so we just pointed the old subscribe pages there. The users still have to contend with that scary email, because we insist on confirms for subs and unsubs, but its a lot easier than starting them from ground zero. - Jerry Trowbridge --at the Flying Pig Ranch From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 12:21:03 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA02247; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:37:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id LAA02132 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 30434 invoked from network); 3 Dec 1997 19:41:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 3 Dec 1997 19:41:24 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971203134027.00c6f6c0@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:40:27 -0600 To: "Gary E. Bickford" From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: An alternative to spamming? Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: <199712030946.BAA08429@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:54 PM 12/3/97 -0600, you wrote: >Keeping it short... > >I don't like spam, but also have need to promote things occasionally, on >the net. In my not-even-remotely-humble opinion, you can do these things: 1) Create Web pages to peddle your wares. People who are interested in your products can check your pages any time they like. You can, of course, provide goodies (chat pages, on-line games, contests, etc.) to encourage people to visit often. 2) Create moderated announcement lists for your products, and allow folks to s*bscribe via your Web page. 3) Place banner ads on other Web pages. 4) Provide a free service such as a discussion mailing list (but perhaps related to what you're selling), and include a reference to your Web page in the associated documentation, at the end of list digests, etc. >Is it ethical/tolerable to use a "referred mail" approach? No. > By this I mean, >send mail to people I know, or _conservatively_ have reason to believe are >interested in, for instance, a particular shareware product, with a request >to forward to others they think may be interested in the product? I don't care if you're my best buddy in the whole wide world; if you email me a general advertisement of any kind, and it's not a result of a deliberate s*bscription on my part, I will blackhole you. I receive enough mail as it is without getting unwanted ads. If I need or want something, I'll go looking for it. I don't need you sticking it in my face. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 12:27:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA10137; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id MAA10124 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:25:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 15:29:26 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: I can't help myself Organization: SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9712031529.aa06120@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Given the curren thread about users and their ability levels. From a root account, no less... I promise to shut up now. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html ----- Forwarded message # 1: Message-Id: Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:11:57 -0600 (CST) From: root To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Sender: majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com Precedence: bulk subscirbe majordomo-users brojack@fastlane.net ----- End of forwarded messages From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 12:28:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA05525; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu (BROCCOLI.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.53]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id LAA05433 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:54:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from graphics.cornell.edu (LOCALHOST) by broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA069329073; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:57:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199712031957.AA069329073@broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 03 Dec 1997 11:55:04 MST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 14:57:52 -0500 From: Mitch Collinsworth Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>Oh great. There are too many different uns*b mechanisms out there and >>people are getting being confused by it, so your solution is to invent >>yet another one. Yah, I follow that logic. (not) > >It's not a new method - I've seen it used successfully by a number of lists >(I'm on a few lists, one of which has been using it for more than a couple >years). Oh. My apologies then. I guess "new" is relative. Am I the only net fossil who's not run into before? -Mitch -- "Families can't trust Disney" From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 12:45:08 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA09295; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from netguide.com (nexus.netguide.com [199.108.80.129]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id MAA09240 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:19:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from delundel.cmp.com by netguide.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA17938; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:22:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3485BF98.25F5@netguide.com> Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 12:22:48 -0800 From: David Lundell Reply-To: delundel@netguide.com Organization: CMP Media, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary E. Bickford" CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: An alternative to spamming? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gary: Hope these thoughts help: I like the fact that you underline the word "conservatively". Spamming really seems most evil to me when people buy or rent lists, even if they know what the origin of those lists are, and even if they're supposedly "targetted". If you are collecting the addresses in a more intimate way, that's a very good start. >From what I've seen, people seem to be more or less okay with unsolicited commercial mail when: 1)They can tell up front why they are getting it.(The user understanding how you got their address is key here.) 2)They understand how to discontinue getting it. 3)The mail is _highly_ targetted/personalized (getting back to the idea of collecting addresses in an intimate way). FYI, I'm still trying to figure this out, so I'd love to hear your experiences. My experience: we send out about 6 different newsletters, and from time to time we send out an announcement on things going on around our site (new products, special features, etc.) It's a policy we're still working on: we send you a free (advertising-supported) product that you requested, you allow us to e-mail you from time to time informing you of something that you're likely to be interested in, but which could be a waste of 10 seconds of your time. I know your situation is not the same as mine, but I wanted to give you my perspective on unsolicited commercial e-mail (which is what these occasional messages are, to some extent, although I wouldn't call them spam). Good luck (if you do it wrong, people will let you know!), David Lundell Producer, E-mail Products CMPnet | http://www.cmpnet.com Gary E. Bickford wrote: > > Keeping it short... > > I don't like spam, but also have need to promote things occasionally, on > the net. > > So, I thought of a possible middle ground, which I'd like to bounce off the > folks on this list. > > Is it ethical/tolerable to use a "referred mail" approach? By this I mean, > send mail to people I know, or _conservatively_ have reason to believe are > interested in, for instance, a particular shareware product, with a request > to forward to others they think may be interested in the product? What if > there is a moderate, real incentive to do so, such as a point system of > rewards for referrals? > > To avoid others spamming with this, I would also include a statement of > distribution rules, to the effect that the message may not be sent > unsolicited to large groups, or posted on lists except by permission of the > list owner, and then only when it is relevant and useful to the recipients > of the list. > > I am aware that this approach, if taken to its extreme could become > chainmail, which I abhor as well. But it seems to me that is not the case > if it is done right. > > Without going into a lot of detail, I'd like some opinions, including > general comments and suggestions for how to provide the proper wording for > the proper distributiion rules. > > Flame On!! :) > > GEB From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 12:58:59 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA24794; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id LAA24764 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:01:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <199712031823.claire.97120626@siberia.demon.co.uk> From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:23:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? Reply-to: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) In-reply-to: <199712031745.AA067801133@broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu> References: <199712031611.claire.97120600@siberia.demon.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 3 Dec 97 at 12:45, Mitch Collinsworth puddy cat purred: > >the > >variety of uns*bscribe mechanisms on difft lists really confuses folks, > >so I'm setting up mechanisms to allow ppl to mail to > >"listname-off@server" to uns*b. People can understand that. > > Oh great. There are too many different uns*b mechanisms out there and > people are getting being confused by it, so your solution is to invent > yet another one. Yah, I follow that logic. (not) Point taken :) But I don't think you're right, prob cos I didn't explain myself very well: 1/ the listname-off idea is not a new invention -- there's software that does it already. I reckon its the best of the existing crop, and I'm just hacking our setup to support it. 2/ All it needs by way of instructions is "To leave the list, send any mail to listname-off@server". The minimal accurate instruction for the conventioonal command sybtax takes a paragraph to explain, and generally an example too. 3/ The listname-off@server address can be implemented as a URL in a webpage -- one click and you're done -- or in the modern MUAs that allow clickable URLs -- and in mailers such as Pegasus it can even be incoporated into the headers. Pegasus recognises List-Subscribe: and List-Unsubscribe headers, and offers a clickable, menu-driven, easily understood way of leaving the list. It's very neat, and it's not only Pegasus that supports it. I don't generally like non-standards, but because this one is buried in the headers, it's invisible to anyone whose mailer MUA doesn't support it, so it seems reasonably harmless. Best wishes, Claire -- Claire McNab -- Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 12:59:15 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA06365; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:01:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from netguide.com (nexus.netguide.com [199.108.80.129]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id MAA06334 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:00:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from delundel.cmp.com by netguide.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA17593; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:03:55 -0800 Message-ID: <3485BB29.3F2B@netguide.com> Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 12:03:53 -0800 From: David Lundell Reply-To: delundel@netguide.com Organization: CMP Media, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Uns*b mechanisms (was: Clueless subscribers?) References: <199712031611.claire.97120600@siberia.demon.co.uk> <199712031823.claire.97120626@siberia.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is a great discussion everyone, and very timely for me. I run broadcast e-mail newsletters, sending out over 3 million e-mails per month -- so it's a bit different than discussion lists, but the uns*b problems remain. I am now convinced that the most intuitive method for uns*bscribing is to reply to the last newsletter received. Although I like the idea of having a special address, as below, people will inevitably reply, so that's the way I want to go. Given that I want to do it this way, I need your help in deciding the best syntax to use. I am leaning toward something like this: "To be removed from our mailing list, put an x between these brackets [] and reply. Do not make any other alterations to the message." My problem with this is that when AOL users, and users of other e-mail clients, hit reply, the text is not automatically included. Some may have trouble with this. (Would adding extra instructions help here? I'm thinking no, but feel free to express your thoughts on that too.) My other thought would be to have them put either "uns*bscribe" or "remove" in the subject line. But the main reason I don't want to do this is because some users will continue to put these commands in the body, and simply not realize that they are doing something wrong. (So I could add a line in our script to look for this, but this is difficult to do without getting a high false positive rate, it seems. But do tell if I'm missing something.) I could go on with my other thoughts on this vexing issue, but I'm looking for brilliant, free advice -- fast! :) I understand that no method will be perfect, but the customer service aspects of what I do are a bit overwhelming these days, so I want to implement the best method. Thanks for your time. David Lundell Producer, E-mail Products CMPnet | http://www.cmpnet.com > > Point taken :) But I don't think you're right, prob cos I didn't > explain myself very well: > > 1/ the listname-off idea is not a new invention -- there's software > that does it already. I reckon its the best of the existing crop, > and I'm just hacking our setup to support it. > > 2/ All it needs by way of instructions is "To leave the list, send any > mail to listname-off@server". The minimal accurate instruction for > the conventioonal command sybtax takes a paragraph to explain, and > generally an example too. > > 3/ The listname-off@server address can be implemented as a URL in a > webpage -- one click and you're done -- or in the modern MUAs that > allow clickable URLs -- and in mailers such as Pegasus it can even > be incoporated into the headers. > Pegasus recognises List-Subscribe: and List-Unsubscribe headers, and > offers a clickable, menu-driven, easily understood way of leaving > the list. It's very neat, and it's not only Pegasus that > supports it. I don't generally like non-standards, but because > this one is buried in the headers, it's invisible to anyone whose > mailer MUA doesn't support it, so it seems reasonably harmless. > > Best wishes, > Claire > > -- > Claire McNab -- Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 13:01:49 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA12848; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:42:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id MAA12829 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:42:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA08658; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:45:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09445; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:46:51 -0800 To: "Gary E. Bickford" cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: An alternative to spamming? In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 03 Dec 1997 12:54:54 -0600. X-Copyright: (c) 1997 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:46:50 -0800 Message-ID: <9442.881185610@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , you wrote: >Keeping it short... > >I don't like spam, but also have need to promote things occasionally, on >the net. > >So, I thought of a possible middle ground, which I'd like to bounce off the >folks on this list. > >Is it ethical/tolerable to use a "referred mail" approach? By this I mean, >send mail to people I know, or _conservatively_ have reason to believe are >interested in, for instance, a particular shareware product, with a request >to forward to others they think may be interested in the product? What if >there is a moderate, real incentive to do so, such as a point system of >rewards for referrals? > >To avoid others spamming with this, I would also include a statement of >distribution rules, to the effect that the message may not be sent >unsolicited to large groups, or posted on lists except by permission of the >list owner, and then only when it is relevant and useful to the recipients >of the list. > >I am aware that this approach, if taken to its extreme could become >chainmail, which I abhor as well. But it seems to me that is not the case >if it is done right. > >Without going into a lot of detail, I'd like some opinions, including >general comments and suggestions for how to provide the proper wording for >the proper distributiion rules. > >Flame On!! :) OK. You asked for it. The rules are very simple. There is no ambiguity. There is no ``grey area''. There is no such thing as being ``a little pregnant''. You either are or you aren't. Likewise for being a bandwidth theif. If you send E-mail to people who have not themselves _asked_ to have anything from you, then you are a spammer, and you are spamming. If you spam me, or any one of my secret spam collector addresses, then I will (a) add your address and/or your domain name and/or your entire IP block to my blacklists and I will also (b) work overtime to do whatever I can to get your connectivity yanked. If that means repeated annoying phone calls to your provider or ISP then I _will_ do that. The time has long ago passed for being equivocal about the E-mail spam problem. It has already gotten entirely out of control and it will get much much worse if it isn't dealt with severely in all cases. Spammers must be prevented from profiting in any way from their spamming. Many ISPs I talk to about local spamming incidents from their customers try to just shrug their shoulders and say ``He didn't know any better. He's said he is sorry and that he won't do it again.'' I always tell them that's not good enough and I always demand to have the accounts and/or web pages involved terminated. Spamming must not just become an activity that doesn't really yield any gain... It must become an activity which actually _costs_ the perpetrator, e.g. by causing him to lose connectivity. I always do whatever I can, in all cases I can, to make that happen. And I will have no hesitation to do that in your case also, if you decide to become a spammer. P.S. Just for future reference, is `outlawnet.com' your domain, or are you just an individual user there? -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 14:12:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA25296; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:47:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id NAA25245 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:47:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.eskimo.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id NAA05409; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:49:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25908; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:49:47 -0800 From: Berg Received: (from berg@localhost) by eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06152; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:49:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:49:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199712032149.NAA06152@eskimo.com> To: mkc@Graphics.Cornell.EDU Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You're not the only fossil around...I've never seen that particular feature either. From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 16:46:08 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA22472; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:57:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id PAA22316 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id PAA08325; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:59:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.7/1.2.3) id QAA29755 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:59:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199712032359.QAA29755@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (lm) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:59:59 -0700 (MST) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >It's not a new method - I've seen it used successfully by a number of lists > >(I'm on a few lists, one of which has been using it for more than a couple > >years). > > My apologies then. I guess "new" is relative. Am I the only net fossil > who's not run into before? No. I've never seen it, and I'm on several dozen lists. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 18:42:25 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA03166; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:29:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id OAA04577 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:33:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA02004 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:35:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA08072 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:34:40 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA22819 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:34:38 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199712032234.QAA22819@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:34:38 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > You're not the only fossil around...I've never seen that particular > feature either. I tend to think of myself as a dinosaur rather than a fossil, but at the rate my bones are stiffening up on me, that might be moot soon. (The unofficial definition of a computer dinosaur is someone who actually remembers the Hollerith code for the alphabet.) Anyway, this dinosaur has not seen that particular uns*b feature, either. But I'm busy enough running my lists that I don't spend a lot of time as a member of them, other than lists like this one. -- Mike Nolan From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 19:57:26 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA08144; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id SAA08055 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:52:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id SAA09067; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:54:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15278 ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:55:07 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9442.881185610@monkeys.com> References: Your message of Wed, 03 Dec 1997 12:54:54 -0600. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:28:25 -0800 To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" , "Gary E. Bickford" From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: An alternative to spamming? Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:46 PM -0800 12/3/97, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > The rules are very simple. There is no ambiguity. There is no >``grey area''. > There is no such thing as being ``a little pregnant''. You either are or > you aren't. Likewise for being a bandwidth theif. Oh, yes there is. Everyone draws their lines in different places in the sand. Just watch out drawing lines near a zealot.... (grin) -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 20:05:33 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA15439; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 19:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.254.96.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id TAA15320 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 19:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA13416; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:31:38 -0500 X-Sender: humour@humournet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34858248.4E3A83CE@worldnet.att.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:24:50 -0500 To: "Sheryl E. Coe" From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? Cc: jonathon , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 11:01 -0500 12/3/97, Sheryl E. Coe sent everyone: >> ...In fact, it probably keeps many of us out of the shrinks' offices. >> Which, BTW, I'm not really convinced is A Good Thing ... ;-) > >Next time you go to YOURS, picture what he's saying about YOU over >sandwiches in the breakroom! You mean, "used to" say about me. He agreed to refund all my money as long as I promised to NEVER come back. I think that was fair. ;-) __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre: vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam! Behind every successful man Behind every successful man is a is a surprised woman woman with expensive taste -- Maryon Pearson -- Vince Sabio From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 20:05:46 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA15440; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 19:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.254.96.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id TAA15345 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 19:28:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA13419 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:31:57 -0500 X-Sender: humour@humournet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199712032359.QAA29755@kitsune.swcp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:29:50 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (lm) From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 18:59 -0500 12/3/97, Lazlo Nibble sent everyone: >> >It's not a new method - I've seen it used successfully by a number of lists >> >(I'm on a few lists, one of which has been using it for more than a couple >> >years). >> >> My apologies then. I guess "new" is relative. Am I the only net fossil >> who's not run into before? > >No. I've never seen it, and I'm on several dozen lists. I've seen it. I think that it's probably on more lists than you realize -- but since we are already "trained" on sending "unsubscribe " to "@domain.name", we rarely notice "alternate" methods of, um, getting ourselves off. *IF* we even read those parts of the Welcome messages, that is. ;-) BTW, this is also standard on the Lyris list server, which has been out for about a year(?) now. Or so. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre: vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam! Behind every successful man Behind every successful man is a is a surprised woman woman with expensive taste -- Maryon Pearson -- Vince Sabio From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 20:05:55 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA08003; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id SAA07903 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:50:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15284 ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:55:09 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199712031745.AA067801133@broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu> References: Your message of "Wed, 03 Dec 1997 16:11:31 GMT." <199712031611.claire.97120600@siberia.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:32:17 -0800 To: Mitch Collinsworth , claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, mkc@broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:45 AM -0800 12/3/97, Mitch Collinsworth wrote: > Oh great. There are too many different uns*b mechanisms out there and > people are getting being confused by it, so your solution is to invent > yet another one. Yah, I follow that logic. (not) And your problem with that is.... I mean, as long as you also support the common formats, adding a new, improved, easier one as an optional interface is a pretty darn good idea. Just don't jetison the old ones arbitrarily. You never know -- by trying something new, you might end up replacing the old ones eventually with something better. I use "foo-sub" and "foo-unsub" addresses on my lists, and they work great. So does my web pages that interface to those beasts. But I don't use them as my ONLY interfaces, so if people know how to use standard majordomo, they don't get hosed. But I see no reason to force people to learn those things if they don't want to, and I can create a "new user" interface to help them out. The trick, of course, isn't to freeze things indefinitely, or to break things arbitrarily, but to find ways to help empower the newer, less experienced users WITHOUT getting in the way of the power user. Cater to both -- it's not a crime. Just more work on the developer's part, but then, isn't that why I'm here? -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 20:06:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA07996; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:51:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id SAA07833 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15296 ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:55:13 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3485BB29.3F2B@netguide.com> References: <199712031611.claire.97120600@siberia.demon.co.uk> <199712031823.claire.97120626@siberia.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:53:11 -0800 To: delundel@netguide.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Uns*b mechanisms (was: Clueless subscribers?) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:03 PM -0800 12/3/97, David Lundell wrote: > I am now convinced that the most intuitive method for uns*bscribing is > to reply to the last newsletter received. For some lists, maybe, but it has serious gotchas. Like people who aren't paying close attention and want to send you feedback. Bang, they're off. Or people who go away, turn on an autoresponder without thinking. Bang, they're gone (maybe you don't MIND that). > Although I like the idea of > having a special address, as below, people will inevitably reply, so > that's the way I want to go. My preference, frankly, is that the reply address be a "comments about the list" address, not an unsub address. But then I'd put a mailbot on that address that (a) confirms receipt, and (b) reminds users that if they're trying to get off the list, to use the following directions -- that this is NOT the unsub address. Make sure those instructions are near the top of your postings, also. And since the mailbot answers for you, you can ignore any misdirected requests (a nice thing about boilerplate mailbots, is it gives you a nice way to avoid getting into protracted arguments -- you're no longer under obligation to respond or confirm receipt, because the mailbot did it, so you get away from a lot fo the "don't send me the damn instructions, just do it" stuff) And that's basically my policy, although if I get mail from users that are either seriously honked, frustrated or lost, I take care of them. But if it's clear they're just mailing to the wrong address and haven't followed directions, I nudge them where they ought to go. I just try to avoid being pedantic. If a person's drowning, you throw them a floatation device, not instructions on how to swim... -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 20:13:18 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA08002; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:51:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id SAA07848 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15290 ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:55:11 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199712031611.claire.97120600@siberia.demon.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:47:44 -0800 To: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab), List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? (Was: Re: List-Managers-Digest V6 #23 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:11 AM -0800 12/3/97, Claire McNab wrote: > Most list instructions are much too verbose, and most are badly > written Yup. Mine included. V1.0 of my new server instructions tried to deal with the problems in the instructions in my old server, and went into the frothy bloats. I'm now working on V1.1, and I figure I can dump 40% of the text. Or shift it out of the way to focus on the essentials. There's a third piece you missed here, Claire. Most sets of instruction DON'T ANSWER THE QUESTION. User sends e-mail to a list with a bad instruction. What happens? They get the generic server help file back. anywhree from 10K on up of text. Unless the user is skilled enough to (a) locate the error message, (b) interpret it, and (c) read through the help file and interpret it to find the answer, we've just sent them a huge chunk of useless text. Either they keep fumbling, give up, or write the postmaster looking for a real human. Imagine if list servers recognized the error, and sent back a note explaining what they did wrong and how to fix it? Instead of "Syntax error, here's the list of commands:", send back "you attempted to do this, but that didn't work. Here's are the things to try.....". I've been working on that with my new server system, and it's truly amazing how it's cut down the amount of mail to postmaster screaming "I don't CARE ABOUT SYNTAX JUST DO THIS DAMMIT". And cut the error rate, since I don't have users trying nine varieties of a command praying one works. I've still got pieces to implement, but the pieces there have really helped. Because people get custom information based on their situation. And since so many error run to common themes, I can catch stuff, automate it, and solve lots of problems by doing it once. When I moved my first list from my old (listproc) server to my new (majordomo and stuff) server, I was averaging 175-250 admin messages a day, where that was basically anything NOT a daemon error message I had to look at and deal with (even if it's boilerplate, it requires a human body). I'm now running about 20 more lists than when I first opened the new server system, and the admin set requiring my attention is down to under 50 a day. I came back from four days of turkey to 45 messages. And about half of those will get taken care of when I do my last three automation sets -- you shouldn't TRY to hide from 100% of the mail, because it won't work and it'll upset your users big time, but if you can have the system answer your question? > most of my help files. One thing that really seems to help is a good > webpage, with an index at the start to key questions: "How do I leave > the list", One thing I'm adding to my web site, a very visible page JUST for unsubscribe instructions and links. Because I'm finding when folks want to get off the list, they don't want to navigate around looking for the instructions, they want it easy to find. So I'm gonna give it to them... Signing up, they don't mind browsing. Leaving, they just want to grab their coat and call a taxi. Understandable -- in retrospect.... So I'll make it as easy as possible, because it's one less excuse for them to justify stupidity or braincramp..... > The final thing is that we should all remember what our lists are > *for*. Technical lists may be a difft ballgame, I run a lot of those. Nope, they aren't. Just because a user is a computer nerd or any kind of techie person (or just plain old smart) doesn't mean they're skilled at mail lists. Any more than being a professional truck driver (even a good one) qualifes you to drive Formula 1. You don't have to be SMART to use mail lists -- you have to learn how to use them. So being smart at any other skill doesn't mean anything about list usage, other than perhaps an ability to learn them more easily. Computer people mess up with mail lists just like "normal" folks do. That's not their specialty. The only people with *no* excuse for screwing up on mail lists are people like us, who build, maintain and run them. And we're a really limited audience, but I'd be curious as heck what the error situation for the mailing-list-guru-lists are. Because one can bet they're not zero... (grin) -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-list Wed Dec 3 21:42:33 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05765; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:15:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id VAA05740 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:15:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id XAA15268 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:18:36 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199712040518.XAA15268@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? (Was: Re: List-Managers-Digest V6 #23 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 23:19:30 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 12/3/97 9:47 PM, Chuq Von Rospach wrote... >The only people with *no* excuse for >screwing up on mail lists are people like us, who build, maintain and >run them. And we're a really limited audience, but I'd be curious as >heck what the error situation for the mailing-list-guru-lists are. >Because one can bet they're not zero... (grin) I'm on five or six list owners' lists. And it does happen, more often than it should. Usually, the situation is this: a person works for a company, and their boss tells them that they have to start running a list and here's who to contact to get set up. So they stumble through the creation process with the site manager and suddenly they have a list. They don't really know what to do with it, and really didn't want the job in the first place. When the site manager asked them "do you want to be on the list owners' list," they said yes because they thought it would help. Then, they get barraged with tons of messages about funny settings that they don't understand, people suggesting changes to list documentation that they don't know how to implement, and discussions about clueless subscribers. So they reply to a list message asking to be taken off the list because all they really want is to send out their company's newsletter so they can keep the boss happy. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From owner-list-managers-list Thu Dec 4 04:13:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA15507; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 03:50:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from marvin.nipltd.com (marvin.nipltd.com [194.193.44.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id DAA15489 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 03:50:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.193.44.113] [194.193.44.113] by marvin.nipltd.com with esmtp (Exim 1.71 #6) id 0xdZqs-0002us-00; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:53:54 +0000 X-Sender: simon@pop.nipltd.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:50:52 +0000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Simon Coles Subject: New mailing list about Notes MTAs Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, A while ago this list had a thread about the delights of Lotus mail gateways. We're Lotus Premium Partners, which means that while Lotus doesn't listen to us much either, we would like to try and improve Lotus products' reputation in the Internet world. So we've created a mailing list about Lotus MTAs, with the aims of: - educating administrators of these gateways - providing a forum for discussing the problems and maybe even getting some grain share from Lotus If you know of any admins of Lotus products who might benefit from joining the list, instructions are below. Having some list managers on the list might also help introduce admins to the impacts of their decisions :-) Here's the list announcement: NOTESMTA-L on notesmta-l@lyris.nipltd.com (Lotus MTAs) Server address: lyris@lyris.nipltd.com List address: notesmta-l@lyris.nipltd.com NOTESMTA-L is an open, unmoderated Internet mailing list for administrators of MTAs and Mail Gateways between Lotus Notes/Domino and other mail systems. The discussion focusses on the issues surrounding connecting Notes/Domino to other mail systems (for example the Internet, X.400, cc:Mail) using MTAs and mail gateways. Typical topics are the choice, configuration, and use of these gateways, as well as problems created by the interaction of different mailing systems. Issues specifically related to the Lotus Notes client are probably better handled on the existing LNOTES-L list. Specific Domino server administration issues should be directed to the DOMINO-L list (http://www.nipltd.com/domino-l.htm) Archives of the list, a web interface to the list server, and other information is available at http://www.nipltd.com/notesmta-l.htm To subscribe to NOTESMTA-L, send a regular email message to: lyris@lyris.nipltd.com and in the body of the note, type: subscribe notesmta-l List Owners: Tom Kranz Simon Coles --------- My opinions are my own, NIP's opinions are theirs ---------- Simon J. Coles Email: simon@nipltd.com New Information Paradigms Work Phone: +44 1344 778783 http://www.nipltd.com/ Work Fax: +44 1344 772510 =============== Life is too precious to take seriously =============== From owner-list-managers-list Thu Dec 4 09:59:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA08592; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:02:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu (BROCCOLI.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.53]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id JAA08571 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:02:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from graphics.cornell.edu (LOCALHOST) by broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA081975125; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:05:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199712041705.AA081975125@broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, mkc@broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu Subject: Re: Clueless subscribers? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 03 Dec 1997 18:32:17 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:05:25 -0500 From: Mitch Collinsworth Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> Oh great. There are too many different uns*b mechanisms out there and >> people are getting being confused by it, so your solution is to invent >> yet another one. Yah, I follow that logic. (not) > >And your problem with that is.... > >I mean, as long as you also support the common formats, adding a new, >improved, easier one as an optional interface is a pretty darn good >idea. Just don't jetison the old ones arbitrarily. You never know -- by >trying something new, you might end up replacing the old ones >eventually with something better. > >I use "foo-sub" and "foo-unsub" addresses on my lists, and they work >great. So does my web pages that interface to those beasts. But I don't >use them as my ONLY interfaces, so if people know how to use standard >majordomo, they don't get hosed. But I see no reason to force people to >learn those things if they don't want to, and I can create a "new user" >interface to help them out. > >The trick, of course, isn't to freeze things indefinitely, or to break >things arbitrarily, but to find ways to help empower the newer, less >experienced users WITHOUT getting in the way of the power user. Cater >to both -- it's not a crime. Just more work on the developer's part, >but then, isn't that why I'm here? Chuq, your argument make sense, at least as far as it goes. The biggest problem I see with inventing yet more new list management interfaces is that users who experience them at one site then expect to find them at other sites. I.e if foo-unsub@chuq.com works, why doesn't foo-unsub@mitch.com work? -Mitch -- "Families can't trust Disney" From owner-list-managers-list Thu Dec 4 12:13:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA11650; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:52:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id LAA11507 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.ns.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id LAA16173; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:54:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28687; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:55:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA16379; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:56:54 -0800 To: jonathon cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: An alternative to spamming? In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 04 Dec 1997 08:59:05 +0000. X-Copyright: (c) 1997 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:56:54 -0800 Message-ID: <16376.881269014@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , you wrote: >On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > >> If you send E-mail to people who have not themselves _asked_ to have >> anything from you, then you are a spammer > > When I setup HWA-QA, I merged at least six, and probably more > like ten lists, that dealt with the same, or similar topic, > into that one. The lists had been inactive for a period of > time ranging from three months, to three years. << I was > taking them over, from various list-owners, who asked me if > I was wanting to do something with their list. >> << None > of the lists I took over were run on mailing list software, > such as MajorDomo, or ListProc. >> > > So was my sending each individual on each list, spamming > them? Or not? & explain your answer. That was not spamming. The individuals who had been on the original lists had (I presume) _asked_ to be on those lists. I also assume that their E-Mail addresses had not merely been fished at random out of USENET news or out of related USENET newsgroups, but had been sent, voluntarily, by their owners, to the original list owners along with requests that they receive (mostly non-commercial) information on some very specific topic. You took ten voluntary opt-in mailing lists which had low traffic volume or zero traffic volume and merged them into a single list which actually might have a broad enough interest to survive and be active. The result is still and opt-in mailing list, but one with a somewhat broader focus and readership. Ideally, when you began this new list, you started out by sending a single messge to each of the people that were on the predecessor lists, explaining the situation to them and asking them if they would like to now be subscribed to the new successor list (and assuming a default response of `no'). But even if you didn't do that I would still not characterize what you did as spamming because at some point in time the subscribers _did_ in fact ask to be on a mailing list for a directly relevant topic, and you were merely renaming and broadening those predecessor lists. When someone has expressed no particular interest in a given topic DIRECTLY to the information sender (or someone associated with him, even if only loosely) then sending information to that person is ``unsolicited'' and the messages themselves are spam. (I have been careful to say that the recipient should express interest DIRECTLY to the information sender. Merely posting something to a newsgroup, or on a web page, or to a different active mailing list doesn't count.) -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From owner-list-managers-list Thu Dec 4 14:00:05 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA02735; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:46:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id NAA00590 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17361 invoked from network); 4 Dec 1997 21:35:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 4 Dec 1997 21:35:49 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971204153432.0091c3f0@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 15:34:32 -0600 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: An alternative to spamming? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19971203134027.00c6f6c0@armchair.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 06:03 PM 12/4/97 +0000, Manar Hussain wrote, in response to one of my standard rants: >> I don't care if you're my best buddy in the whole wide world; if you >> email me a general advertisement of any kind, and it's not a result of a >> deliberate s*bscription on my part, I will blackhole you. [...] > >That's just plain nuts. Now you may draw you line in different places - >but if you consider it an ex-communicable offence for a very good long >time friend to come up to you and say "Dave! I've just got this great new >gizmo you've gotta try" then that's very sad. I guess I'm nuts and sad, then. There's a world of difference between a friend telling me about a product that he or she likes, and that I might be interested in, and a "friend" sending me an advertisement. If a friend tries out some new motorcycle tires, say, and thinks I might like 'em too, that's fine. I welcome such information. But that's discussion, not advertising. On the other hand, if that same friend sends me a bloody email brochure, with no concern other than scoring himself a profit, then the @#$%!! gets blackholed. >Fact is that we all have a lot to gain by relying on the ability of others >to act on our behalf. I agree. But advertising is NOT acting on my behalf. It's acting on the advertiser's behalf. > With respect to information channelling this is >going to become far more important in an online environment. The person >might be a friend who knows you well or a list admin that keeps a list >ticking along such that you think it useful. As long as the friend has MY interests in mind and not merely his or her wallet, that's fine. As long as _I_ signed up for the list of my own free will, that's fine. As soon as it's stuffed down my throat, that's NOT fine. >Of course I may have sympathies with your sentiments because of the abuse >that goes on - doesn't mean that in this enlightened forum we can forgive >ourselves jumping way to far in reverse. First of all, don't assume that because this forum is enlightened, I am enlightened too. I revel in my unenlightenment, for I am an ass. Too far in reverse? I think not. I simply refuse to tolerate receiving ANY advertisements, unless I have specifically requested them. If more people felt that way, perhaps we wouldn't have such a problem with spam, and advertisements would only appear where they belong. I really don't mind advertising in general, and indeed I RELY on it as a business owner. I just refuse to be forced to swallow it when I don't want to. There's a place for it, but the place is not email. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From owner-list-managers-list Fri Dec 5 05:28:16 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA21883; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from talmail.legion.org ([204.180.53.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id FAA21858 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:22:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from jim-patrick ([204.180.53.2]) by talmail.legion.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA17798 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:23:33 -0500 Received: by jim-patrick with Microsoft Mail id <01BD0157.355CD220@jim-patrick>; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:24:30 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD0157.355CD220@jim-patrick> From: Jim Patrick - The American Legion To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Multiple Virutual Domains Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:24:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have been successful in following the directions for the setup of = multiple virtual domains with majordomo. I am able to send mail to = majordomo@domain1.com and majordomo@domain2.com. My alias configuration = points the messages to the correct .cf configuration file. The problem = is the reply from majordomo. If I send a request to = majordomo@domain2.com the reply comes from majordomo@domain1.com. How = do I get the reply from majordomo to be from the domain that the request = was sent to? From owner-list-managers-list Mon Dec 8 23:43:19 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA05566; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:33:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from socrates.nmia.com (socrates.nmia.com [198.59.166.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id XAA05371 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:32:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from plato.nmia.com(really [198.59.166.165]) by socrates.nmia.com via smail with smtp id for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:36:45 -0700 (MST) (Smail-3.2.0.95 1997-May-7 #5 built 1997-May-20) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:36:45 -0700 (MST) From: Ozz Graham Reply-To: Ozz Graham To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Juno.COM Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is anyone else having troubles with juno.com? The last few days or so, I am getting a "Connection Refused" from them... From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 9 00:13:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA11431; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:02:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.16.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id AAA11380 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:01:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from core0.mx.execpc.com (core0.mx.execpc.com [169.207.16.7]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.8.6) id CAA19048; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:05:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from presario-7212 (jaemus-25.mdm.mad.execpc.com [169.207.41.26]) by core0.mx.execpc.com (8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA03248; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:05:50 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <348CF563.259@execpc.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 01:38:11 -0600 From: Gillam Kerley X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ozz Graham CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Juno.COM References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ozz Graham wrote: > > Is anyone else having troubles with juno.com? The last few days or so, I > am getting a "Connection Refused" from them... I have a juno account and couldn't log on as a user today; got a network-down sort of error message. GK From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 9 07:28:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA23305; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from cron-2.mco.on.ca (cron-2.mco.net [207.81.18.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id HAA23290 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:21:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by cron-2.mco.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA32579; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:41:11 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:37:22 -0500 (EST) From: "(ROOT)" To: list-managers@greatcricle.com Subject: Please Help Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="LAB32554.881684987/cron-2.mco.on.ca" Content-ID: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --LAB32554.881684987/cron-2.mco.on.ca Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: I seem to be having problems with permissions and the archive. The first message gets written to the archive correctly and the following file is created: -rw------- 1 bin bin 612 Dec 9 11:26 nspa-org But each subsequent message produces an error (see below). I tried chown majordom.majordom nspa-org and also chmod a+rwx nspa-org and I still get the same errors. Anyone please have any ideas. PS. If this is the wrong forum to ask these questions, then please accept my apologies and let me know the correct one. Thanks. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:29:47 -0500 From: Mail Delivery Subsystem To: nspa-org-owner@cron-2.mco.on.ca Subject: Returned mail: Can't create output: Permission denied The original message was received at Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:29:46 -0500 from majordom@localhost ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- /w/archives/nspa-org (unrecoverable error) (expanded from: nspa-org-archive) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 /w/archives/nspa-org... Can't create output: Permission denied Message delivered to mailing list nspa-org-archive Message delivered to mailing list nspa-org-outgoing ----- Message header follows ----- --LAB32554.881684987/cron-2.mco.on.ca-- From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 9 09:13:14 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA10429; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:03:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id JAA10413 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:03:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by miso.wwa.com via sendmail with stdio id for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:08:27 -0600 (CST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #12 built 1997-Nov-30) Message-Id: Subject: Re: Juno.COM To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:08:27 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Ozz Graham" at Dec 9, 97 00:36:45 am From: "David W. Tamkin" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ozz Graham asked, | Is anyone else having troubles with juno.com? The last few days or so, I | am getting a "Connection Refused" from them... I've had that sporadically lately; pending mail got through yesterday except for pieces affected by my *other* problem with juno.com. If there are more than one juno.com address on an envelope, and one Juno user is over quota, Juno refuses to deliver to any of the remaining addresses on the envelope, so those subscribers don't get their mail; additionally, Juno keeps reporting it as a temporary failure, so it stays in your site's mail queue for weeks with no NDN sent to the list maintainer. Unless you think of checking the mail queue (and have access to check the mail queue) you don't find out. And if you don't have mail administrator privileges, you have to ask someone else to kill the jobs. Smail here on WWA was compounding the problem by redelivering about once a week to all addresses on an envelope that had some juno.com addresses that were still reporting a temporary failure; I have taken to sending my list's mailings separately to Juno from any other site so that only juno.com users would get those multiple copies. David Tamkin From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 9 10:13:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA23632; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:07:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.azstarnet.com (mailhost.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id KAA23557 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:07:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from Pbish (dialup08ip37.tus.azstarnet.com [169.197.33.165]) by mailhost.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA00588 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:11:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199712091811.LAA00588@mailhost.azstarnet.com> X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ From: "Bob Bish" Organization: http://www.humvee.com To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:11:32 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: strange problem Reply-to: bish@azstarnet.com In-reply-to: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One listmember's address recently started bouncing list mail. I've corresponded with him and all "regular" mail goes through. He's on other mailing lists and is getting mail from those. Only mail from this particular list seems to bounce. No other listmembers are having this problem. The "bounce" messages give the following info: gcg@mesh.net... Deferred: Name server: ns1.mesh.net.: host name lookup failure Apparently, lookup succeeds for "mesh.net", but not for "ns1.mesh.net". I had the member forward this info to his sysadmin, but he said he had no idea why the list mail is bouncing. Any ideas? ...Bob From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 9 11:13:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA05772; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:59:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.azstarnet.com (mailhost.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id KAA05703 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:58:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from Pbish (dialup08ip37.tus.azstarnet.com [169.197.33.165]) by mailhost.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA18466 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:03:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199712091903.MAA18466@mailhost.azstarnet.com> X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ From: "Bob Bish" Organization: http://www.humvee.com To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:03:12 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: strange problem Reply-to: bish@azstarnet.com In-reply-to: <199712091811.LAA00588@mailhost.azstarnet.com> References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Apparently, lookup succeeds for "mesh.net", but not for "ns1.mesh.net". The admin where my listserver lives says this: > > Well, I get this when I do a lookup on mesh.net (query type MX [mail > > exchange]): > > > > mesh.net preference = 10, mail exchanger = ns1.mesh.net > > > > The problem is the fact that when I do a lookup on 'ns1.mesh.net' I get > > this: > > > > *** station1.firehouse.net can't find ns1.mesh.net: Non-existent host/domain > > > > Looks like a failure of DNS to resolve that name. Their name servers are > > seriously broken/slow to respond. You must be working off old data that > > will probably expire shortly. ...Bob From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 9 15:28:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA17940; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:30:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id OAA17852 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:30:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01169; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:36:17 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:36:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199712092236.PAA01169@smtp04.primenet.com> Received: from ip-21-224.phx.primenet.com(206.165.21.224), claiming to be "primenet.primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd001107; Tue Dec 9 15:36:05 1997 X-Sender: bobg@pop.primenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "David W. Tamkin" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: bobg@primenet.com (Robert L. Guertin) Subject: Re: Juno.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think you have to update or reset the time/date on windows 95 before Juno will send anything through, that's what I had to do. Jan From owner-list-managers-list Tue Dec 9 23:58:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA25828; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:46:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from socrates.nmia.com (socrates.nmia.com [198.59.166.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id XAA25715 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:46:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from plato.nmia.com(really [198.59.166.165]) by socrates.nmia.com via smail with smtp id for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:50:42 -0700 (MST) (Smail-3.2.0.95 1997-May-7 #5 built 1997-May-20) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:50:42 -0700 (MST) From: Ozz Graham To: "Robert L. Guertin" cc: "David W. Tamkin" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Juno.COM In-Reply-To: <199712092236.PA