From list-managers-owner Wed Dec 1 01:27:01 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA19415; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 01:13:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.cnusc.fr (hermes.cnusc.fr [193.48.169.50]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id BAA19408 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 01:13:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from cru.fr (st010.cnusc.fr [195.83.185.10]) by hermes.cnusc.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06173; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:17:04 GMT Message-ID: <3844E7C5.31602D8A@cru.fr> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:17:57 +0100 From: sa X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [fr] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremy Blackman CC: Miles Fidelman , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, aumont@cru.fr Subject: Re: mailman vs. majordomo2 vs. sympa References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jeremy Blackman a écrit : > On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Miles Fidelman wrote: > > > I'm thinking of upgrading my current list software - from majordomo to one > > of majordomo2, mailman, or sympa. > > > > Each of them seems to have some serious features above-and-beyond > > majordomo1, but I get the sense that each has its problems as well - I see > > lots of bugs go by on the mailman users list, and it seems like > > development is moving slowly on all three. > > Of the three, I get the impression that Mailman's major strength is the > web interface, and Sympa's major strength is the localization. Now sympa include wwsympa which is a web interface currently alpha version. It will be beta as soon as completly availible both in french and english language and released as soon as documentation will be availible. WWsympa include user preference such as langage preference, html archive with acces control, list owner, list editor and listmaster features. Take a look at the release note to how fast we developp. http://listes.cru.fr/sympa. From list-managers-owner Wed Dec 1 09:43:20 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA26704; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:30:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntcorp.dn.net (ntcorp.dn.net [207.226.172.79]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA26697 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:30:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (fidelman@localhost) by ntcorp.dn.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19783 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:34:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:34:33 -0500 (EST) From: Miles Fidelman X-Sender: fidelman@ntcorp.dn.net To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: has anybody tried using INN for archiving mail? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone tried using news software (notably INN) for archiving list traffic? If so: - does it work well? - can you share any hints? - how do you handle large archives? Thanks, Miles Fidelman ************************************************************************** The Center for Civic Networking PO Box 600618 Miles R. Fidelman, President & Newtonville, MA 02460-0006 Director, Municipal Telecommunications Strategies Program 617-558-3698 fax: 617-630-8946 mfidelman@civicnet.org http://civic.net/ccn.html Information Infrastructure: Public Spaces for the 21st Century Let's Start With: Internet Wall-Plugs Everywhere Say It Often, Say It Loud: "I Want My Internet!" ************************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Wed Dec 1 10:01:01 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA26797; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:39:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.143.206.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA26790 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:39:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from tpad.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10237; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:44:54 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991130223430.0352e850@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:34:30 -0500 To: "David W. Tamkin" From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: qmail/ezmlm vs. BigMailBox Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199911300011.SAA67614@Mars.mcs.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19991129103626.03a135c0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 06:11 PM 11/29/99 -0600, David W. Tamkin wrote: >Nick Simicich wrote to the list, to Roger Fajman, and to me: > >| In any case, you might consider using the web to finesse the broken e-mail >| system. > >Whom do you mean by "you," Nick? None of us here run the list hosts in >question, so none of us here can change them. I do find it silly that >ONElist, for example, gives a web URL in confirmation requests for >subscriptions, preencoded with the confirmation cookie, as well as a reply >address, but not in confirmation requests for removals. After all, if these >people get their email on webmail services, they must have HTTP access. But >the people who can do that are those who program the list host: not Roger, >not me, not anyone here. I presumed that some folks here might be running EzMLM systems. These people could presumably fix it for themselves. I've been known to misunderstand coversations before - wasn't part of the issue that EzMLM with Qmail uses these addresses? I've been confused before.... But that (that people on this list can't help others solve the problem) is not technically true. I could write a web form that would send mail to addresses with '=' in the local part of the header, from the webmail origins. By exchanging a token with the originating mailing address, I might even be able to do it with a reasonable modicum of security, or at least tracability. But that would probably be just as hard to explain as the below: >| Alternatively, consider providing an instructional page that explains how >| the end user caught in this pickle can telnet to port 25 of the system that >| MX's for the target and manually put in the e-mail to this weird address >| from themselves. :-) > >Interesting idea but impossible to explain to most people in that particular >briny cucumber. Clicking on a URL sent to them in email is just about their >speed. Asking them to send an answer to email anywhere besides the supplied >reply address is way above their heads. Note the smily. >BigMailBox's web site gave a phone number for sales; I called there and they >transfered me to Jason in tech support, who transfered me to Chris in pro- >gramming, to whom I explained that forbidding equal signs causes a problem; >Chris said he'd refer it to his superiors. > >The people there were very nice and listened politely, but who knows whether >they'll just forget that I called now that we've hung up? If they do make >any changes, they'll show up on gohip.com right away, so I'll check what hap- >pens on gohip.com from time to time. BTW, Chris did acknowledge that their >mailer-daemon couldn't write to an address with an equal sign either, so if >a BMB system closes or renames an account, or if a mail quota fills up, and >the account is on a mailing list running under ezmlm or a derivative, the BMB >system cannot return an NDN. Hopefully you've made a positive step. But if the number of badly broken 4 generation old Lotus MTAs that are still running are any indication, this means that if they fix it tomorrow, it will cease being a problem in around 2030. -- I'm going to change my name to 'Squawk' because that is what my parrots call me. Nick Simicich mailto:njs@scifi.squawk.com or (last choice) mailto:njs@us.ibm.com http://scifi.squawk.com/njs.html -- Stop by and Light Up The World! From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 2 10:26:58 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA11979; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA11940 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:26:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (dattier@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id MAA01063 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:32:08 -0600 (CST) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.8.2) id MAA98690 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:31:49 -0600 (CST) From: "David W. Tamkin" Message-Id: <199912021831.MAA98690@Mars.mcs.net> Subject: Re: qmail/ezmlm vs. BigMailBox In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991130223430.0352e850@127.0.0.1> from Nick Simicich at "Nov 30, 1999 10:34:30 pm" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:31:48 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I asked Nick Simicich, T> Whom do you mean by "you"? He explained, S> I presumed that some folks here might be running EzMLM systems. These S> people could presumably fix it for themselves. Yes, they could, but none of them had participated in the thread, and no one from the listhost in question has ever spoken up on list-managers in all my years of subscription, so the use of the second person was dissonant. Thank you for explaining. S> I've been known to misunderstand coversations before - wasn't part of the S> issue that EzMLM with Qmail uses these addresses? Yes. The particular listhost uses a derivative of ezmlm with qmail, and that is one feature left unchanged. Nick had previously posted, S2> Alternatively, consider providing an instructional page that explains how S2> the end user caught in this pickle can telnet to port 25 of the system that S2> MX's for the target and manually put in the e-mail to this weird address S2> from themselves. :-) to which I'd replied, T> Interesting idea but impossible to explain to most people in that particular T> briny cucumber. Clicking on a URL sent to them in email is just about their T> speed. Asking them to send an answer to email anywhere besides the supplied T> reply address is way above their heads. S> Note the smily. It was noted. It was too small. Your suggestion of getting these people to learn how to telnet and speak SMTP was too wild for a smiley; if there is an emoticon for something the writer knows to be utterly preposterous, it would still be inadequate. I was trying to say that your joking suggestion was even farther from reality than, to guess from the mere smiley, you seemd to think. S> Hopefully you've made a positive step. But if the number of badly broken 4 S> generation old Lotus MTAs that are still running are any indication, this S> means that if they fix it tomorrow, it will cease being a problem in around S> 2030. You're optimistic. As of this writing it still is not fixed on gohip.com, and that's the BigMailBox site where a software update would show up first. From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 2 22:41:54 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA18670; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id WAA18658 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:06:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from izzy6.izzy.net (izzy6.izzy.net [206.84.176.178]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA25777 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:48:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by izzy6.izzy.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA17154 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:53:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: izzy6.izzy.net: UUatbbs set sender to dbsmith@atbbs.com using -f >Received: by atbbs.com (0.99.970109) id AA05179; 01 Dec 99 09:00:10 -0500 From: dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith) Date: 01 Dec 99 00:22:08 -0500 Subject: mailman vs. majordomo2 vs. sympa Message-ID: <152_9912010900@atbbs.com> Organization: American Tune BBS, Ypsilanti Twp MI To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, Miles. I noticed you saying to All: MF> I'm thinking of upgrading my current list software - from majordomo to MF> one of majordomo2, mailman, or sympa. I have only used one very simple-to-use list software, so I'm not an expert. However, for what it's worth, the guy who wrote the software I use, recently decided to switch his own lists to a different system -- and he chose mailman. So if I were looking, I'd certainly look there. ... I know a good tagline when I steal one. -- >> Sysop, American Tune BBS | DISCLAIMER: Hey, I -own- the place! >> Anyway, my views are sometimes not even my own, much less anyone else's. From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 2 22:56:55 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA18585; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:05:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id WAA18557 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from yaz.hyperreal.org (lumberjack.collab.net [209.246.26.186]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA12244 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:08:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 10079 invoked by uid 1000); 30 Nov 1999 20:13:30 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 30 Nov 1999 20:13:30 -0000 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:13:30 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf X-Sender: brian@yaz.hyperreal.org To: Miles Fidelman cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: mailman vs. majordomo2 vs. sympa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Miles Fidelman wrote: > I'm thinking of upgrading my current list software - from majordomo to one > of majordomo2, mailman, or sympa. I gave mailman a try, but ran into some mysterious problems after being live for a few weeks, and didn't find an easy resolution to them. Rather than learn a new language (Python) to try and get to the root of the matter (since I was using it in an environment it wasn't guaranteed to work on, which was FreeBSD and qmail), and after not getting much help from other mailman users I knew, I bit the bullet and went with ezmlm. I'm really happy I did that; ezmlm definitely has a sharp initial learning curve, but after you get past that it is really a remarkable program. The only thing it doesn't have is a fancy web-based interface, but that wasn't all that important to me, though it is being worked on. Brian From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 7 13:13:31 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA07548; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:58:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from angel.comcen.com.au (angel.comcen.com.au [203.23.236.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA07541 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [203.56.244.10] (modem010.drakul.comcen.com.au [203.56.244.10]) by angel.comcen.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA01234 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:04:05 +1100 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: johnstev@pop3.syd.comcen.com.au Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:00:23 +1100 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: John Stevenson Subject: Opinions on Topica, please Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The list I run is being moved by the current hosts - a cycling-orientated site called cyclery.com - to Topica. I have the option of moving it elsewhere, to a host that will be considerably more under my control. Does anyone have any experience with Topica? Advice? John Stevenson Writer, editor, mountain bike bloke From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 10 11:20:47 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA09908; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:05:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id LAA09895 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:04:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from Tribe.OnlineToday.Com ([204.181.205.137]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA12696 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:00:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix (phoenix [192.68.1.2]) by Tribe.OnlineToday.Com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA06021 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:08:38 -0600 Message-Id: <199912080508.XAA06021@Tribe.OnlineToday.Com> X-Sender: raven@tribe.onlinetoday.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 23:09:40 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Raven Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable problem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi everybody, I am using: RH Linux 6.0 kernel 2.2.5-15 Sendmail 8.9.3 Majordomo-1.94.4 (pulled the tarball down and installed it from Great Circle) Perl 5.005_03 on a P166, 32 megs of RAM (128 megs of swap), 3.5 Gig hard drive I get a service unavailable error message. Is this saying wrapper that was built for Majordomo is not available or something else? I tried rebuilding from scratch a couple of times but that did not fix the problem. Any suggestions/ideas/direction would be highly appreciated. I have included the message I get back below. Mel >Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:36:57 -0600 >From: Mail Delivery Subsystem >To: raven@Tribe.OnlineToday.Com >Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable >Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) > >The original message was received at Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:36:56 -0600 >from phoenix [192.68.1.2] > > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- >"|/usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo" > (expanded from: ) > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >sh: wrapper not available for sendmail programs >554 "|/usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo"... Service unavailable >Reporting-MTA: dns; Tribe.OnlineToday.Com >Received-From-MTA: DNS; phoenix >Arrival-Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:36:56 -0600 > >Final-Recipient: RFC822; majordomo@Tribe.OnlineToday.Com >X-Actual-Recipient: RFC822; |/usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo@Tribe.OnlineToday.Com >Action: failed >Status: 5.5.0 >Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:36:57 -0600 >Return-Path: >Received: from phoenix (phoenix [192.68.1.2]) > by Tribe.OnlineToday.Com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA04731 > for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:36:56 -0600 >Message-Id: <199912080436.WAA04731@Tribe.OnlineToday.Com> >X-Sender: raven@tribe.onlinetoday.com >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 >Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 22:37:58 -0600 >To: majordomo >From: Raven >Subject: >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >lists > From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 10 14:23:28 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA12313; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:07:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [205.147.43.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA12306 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:07:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt (eckert@netcom11.netcom.com [199.183.9.111]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA20710; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:14:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991210133815.009ce2d0@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:38:15 -0800 To: John Stevenson From: SRE Subject: Re: Opinions on Topica, please Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:00 AM 12/8/99 +1100, John Stevenson wrote: >The list I run is being moved by the current hosts - a >cycling-orientated site called cyclery.com - to Topica. Watch out for who owns the posts made on your list, and what can happen to the list of subscribers. They put several of my lists in their database, without permission, and I don't like anyone who does "opt out" systems. From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 10 15:53:02 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA13220; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:39:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw.tssi.com (gw.tssi.com [198.147.197.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA13213 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:39:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by gw.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10004 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:46:39 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA13288 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:46:37 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199912102346.RAA13288@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Opinions on Topica, please (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:46:37 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I don't like anyone who does "opt out" systems. The messages that really drive ME nuts are the ones that claim to be from 'opt-in' lists I've never joined, and to uns*bscribe from them all I need to do is send e-mail to ..... And then there's this list I don't recall ever asking to join (but run by someone I know) that sends me a confirm message every month or two saying that my address has been suggested to join the list. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 10 22:52:43 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA16349; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 22:37:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix1.sihope.com (unix1.sihope.com [209.98.16.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA16342 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 22:37:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from DSL1123 (dsl-1-123.sihope.com [209.98.133.30]) by unix1.sihope.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id AAA21658 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 00:44:37 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <076201bf43a2$efe52cc0$1e8562d1@sihope.com> Reply-To: "Andrew P. Tasi" From: "Andrew P. Tasi" To: References: Subject: Anybody else having problems with Yahoo.com accounts? Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 00:42:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anybody else with Yahoo e-mail subscribers noticed delivery problems lately? Just want to make sure it's not just me... Regards... From list-managers-owner Sat Dec 11 00:50:44 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA17341; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 00:43:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA17334 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 00:43:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA63646; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 03:50:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 03:50:45 -0500 From: Tim Pierce To: nolan@tssi.com Cc: List Managers Subject: Re: Opinions on Topica, please (fwd) Message-ID: <19991211035045.H57006@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <199912102346.RAA13288@celery.tssi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7us In-Reply-To: <199912102346.RAA13288@celery.tssi.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 05:46:37PM -0600, Mike Nolan wrote: > > And then there's this list I don't recall ever asking to join (but run by > someone I know) that sends me a confirm message every month or two saying > that my address has been suggested to join the list. I don't think I see the problem with that. Surely it's better than blindly adding any address that gets typed into a form. -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb.com lead system admonsterator and Chief Hacking Officer From list-managers-owner Sat Dec 11 07:50:45 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA23733; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:38:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ivan.iecc.com (ivan.iecc.com [208.31.42.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id HAA23726 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:38:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29096 invoked by uid 100); 11 Dec 1999 10:46:19 -0500 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:46:19 -0500 (EST) From: John R Levine To: "Andrew P. Tasi" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Anybody else having problems with Yahoo.com accounts? In-Reply-To: <076201bf43a2$efe52cc0$1e8562d1@sihope.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Has anybody else with Yahoo e-mail subscribers noticed delivery problems > lately? Just want to make sure it's not just me... Yahoo says they have new secret anti-spam filters. Might be that. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl, Sewer Commissioner Finger for PGP key, f'print = 3A 5B D0 3F D9 A0 6A A4 2D AC 1E 9E A6 36 A3 47 From list-managers-owner Sat Dec 11 11:21:17 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA25295; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 11:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA25288 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 11:09:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23346 ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 11:18:51 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:49:39 -0800 To: John R Levine , "Andrew P. Tasi" From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Anybody else having problems with Yahoo.com accounts? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:46 AM -0500 12/11/99, John R Levine wrote: > Yahoo says they have new secret anti-spam filters. Might be that. I don't' think this is a spam filter... (grin) : preline: fatal: unable to run /rocket/mda/qmda_client: file does not exist I've been seeing these on and off all week.... -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Pokemon is a game where children go into the woods and capture furry little creatures and then bring them home and teach them to pit fight. From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 13 19:22:10 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA28603; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:09:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mushi.colo.neosoft.com (mushi.colo.neosoft.com [206.109.6.82]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id TAA28596 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29594 invoked from network); 14 Dec 1999 03:16:55 -0000 Received: from citadel.in.taronga.com (10.0.0.43) by mushi.in.taronga.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 1999 03:16:55 -0000 Received: by citadel.in.taronga.com (Postfix, from userid 101) id B29D2322F8; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:16:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: A List Archive Site that's Spamming To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:16:54 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19991214031654.B29D2322F8@citadel.in.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Got an interesting spam this evening, not to me actually but to a list that runs on my LISTSERV (which got to me because I'm the LISTSERV owner). After writing the person back, she confirmed my suspicion that she was using the PAML as the source of list owners. Her service is a mailing list archiving site. I gave her a list of alternative methods for promoting a site. She said she was new to all this but also gave the usual spammer excuses, how she was getting a great response to her mailings and to "just hit delete." I didn't get the impression I had persuaded stop, as if the list owners in the PAML don't get spammed enough (which is why I've been removing personal email addresses from the listings, sigh). So I suppose this is a heads-up. The site in question is: www.listquest.com From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 13 20:21:07 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA29255; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:18:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA29248 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:18:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from v4j31 (ip12.proper.com [165.227.249.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07521; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:23:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.1.19991213202626.00aaad70@mail.imc.org> X-Sender: paulh@mail.imc.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.1 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:27:15 -0800 To: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: A List Archive Site that's Spamming In-Reply-To: <19991214031654.B29D2322F8@citadel.in.taronga.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:16 PM 12/13/99 -0600, Stephanie da Silva wrote: >So I suppose this is a heads-up. The site in question is: > >www.listquest.com They list both TRUSTe and amazon.com at the bottom of their home pages. Maybe some mail to these two firms saying "do you know you're supporting a spammer" might help. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 13 21:51:08 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA29930; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:40:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA29920 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA104734 ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:49:53 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.1.19991213202626.00aaad70@mail.imc.org> References: <4.2.1.19991213202626.00aaad70@mail.imc.org> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:28:09 -0800 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC , arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: A List Archive Site that's Spamming Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:27 PM -0800 12/13/99, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > They list both TRUSTe and amazon.com at the bottom of their home >pages. Maybe some mail to these two firms saying "do you know you're >supporting a spammer" might help. There's an interesting note on TRUSTe in the new Internet World magazine, which basically shows how useless it is. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Pokemon is a game where children go into the woods and capture furry little creatures and then bring them home and teach them to pit fight. From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 13 22:06:07 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA29979; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (i180.value.net [206.14.136.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA29970 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:46:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA11957 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:54:49 -0800 (PST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: A List Archive Site that's Spamming In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:16:54 -0600. <19991214031654.B29D2322F8@citadel.in.taronga.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:54:49 -0800 Message-ID: <11955.945150889@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <19991214031654.B29D2322F8@citadel.in.taronga.com>, arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) wrote: > >Got an interesting spam this evening, not to me actually but to a >list that runs on my LISTSERV (which got to me because I'm the >LISTSERV owner). After writing the person back, she confirmed my >suspicion that she was using the PAML as the source of list owners. >Her service is a mailing list archiving site. > >I gave her a list of alternative methods for promoting a site. >She said she was new to all this but also gave the usual spammer >excuses, how she was getting a great response to her mailings and >to "just hit delete." I didn't get the impression I had persuaded >stop, as if the list owners in the PAML don't get spammed enough >(which is why I've been removing personal email addresses from the >listings, sigh). > >So I suppose this is a heads-up. The site in question is: > >www.listquest.com I've been trying something new and different in the past few days. In general, you can't directly communicate with spammers that are out there hijacking open relays or spamming direct from cheapie dialup lines, but there does appear to be a growing percentage of folks/companies spamming (without shame or gamesmanship) direct from their own domains and from their own dedicated lines. For these, I've started sending back the following sorts of notices (with their original spams attached). Note that I use EXAMPLE.COM here in place of the actual domain name of whoever sent the spam. ====================================================================== Subject: EXAMPLE.COM: Blacklisted Congratulations! Due to the ongoing spam arriving here from the EXAMPLE.COM domain, all mail from all nodes within the EXAMPLE.COM domain are now permanently banned/blacklisted for the entire monkeys.com domain. If you have any questions about this blacklisting of the EXAMPLE.COM domain, please get an e-mail account someplace else (e.g. Hotmail) and send mail from there to . Have a nice day. Ron Guilmette and ====================================================================== Interestingly, this DOES seem to get their attention, at least as long as I *do* actually drop the relevant domain name into the local blacklist (which I have indeed been doing). I suppose that I should mention also that for some strange reason, I do not feel compelled to divulge to these spammers the number of actual humans (1) who are actually reachable via e-mail addresses in the monkeys.com domain. Their ignorance with respect to this number is my bliss. At least a couple of them have reacted to these simple notifications as if I had just disconnected them from the entire known universe. :-) Moral of the story: Nothing you might say to a spammer is going to be anywhere near at persuasive as just saying ``Your entire domain has been permanently blacklisted here. Have a nice day.'' From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 13 22:21:31 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA00352; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:08:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (i180.value.net [206.14.136.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA00345 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:08:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA12058 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:16:38 -0800 (PST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: A List Archive Site that's Spamming In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:27:15 -0800. <4.2.1.19991213202626.00aaad70@mail.imc.org> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:16:38 -0800 Message-ID: <12056.945152198@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <4.2.1.19991213202626.00aaad70@mail.imc.org>, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: >At 09:16 PM 12/13/99 -0600, Stephanie da Silva wrote: >>So I suppose this is a heads-up. The site in question is: >> >>www.listquest.com > >They list both TRUSTe and amazon.com at the bottom of their home pages. >Maybe some mail to these two firms saying "do you know you're supporting a >spammer" might help. And how exactly would that help? Amazon.Com has been caught spamming themselves on numerous occasions. Why would they care if someone who is merely mentioning Amazon.Com on their web site is doing likewise? As regards to TRUSTe, given that they are on record as totally ignoring the spamming and other blatant and massive violations of privacy under- taken by, in particular, Real Networks, (which has earned a place on the MAPS RBL no fewer than three times) what makes you think they would have any reason to not just look the other way in this case too? TRUSTe is on record as saying that the only implication that should be drawn about a web site displaying the TRUSTe symbol is that the company that owns the site in question has also posted a statement regarding that company's own privacy policy on the same web site. The privacy policy of any given TRUSTe member site can say _anything_, including ``Screw your privacy. We're going to monitor and track you every which way we can. And then we are going to spam the hell out of you.'' (I'm not aware whether TRUSTe has any point-size restrictions on these policy statements either. I suspect however that they are allowed to be rendered in the smallest point size available with current technology.) TRUSTe does not concern itself with the *contents* of the privacy policies of its participating sites, only with whether they _have_ a policy, and whether or not it is accessible on their respective web sites. It's kind-of like giving Union Carbide the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval just because they had a sign outside of their Bhopal plant that said ``Be advised that we keep dangerous chemicals here.'' From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 13 22:51:13 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA00686; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mushi.colo.neosoft.com (mushi.colo.neosoft.com [206.109.6.82]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id WAA00677 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:40:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8342 invoked from network); 14 Dec 1999 06:47:59 -0000 Received: from citadel.in.taronga.com (10.0.0.43) by mushi.in.taronga.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 1999 06:47:59 -0000 Received: by citadel.in.taronga.com (Postfix, from userid 101) id 424A5322F8; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:47:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: A List Archive Site that's Spamming To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:47:38 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19991214064738.424A5322F8@citadel.in.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >pages. Maybe some mail to these two firms saying "do you know you're >supporting a spammer" might help. The slogan on ListQuest.com is "Building Communities of Like-Minded People". I wish I could do a turnabout is fair play and write all the listowners currently archiving there to say "Hi, you're hosted by a spammer, does this mean you're a spammer too?" Or perhaps point out to the site admins how they would feel when they lost clients because their users got spammed when someone harvested their web site. Because that happens to me, people have on occasion asked me to delete their listings because they've traced the spam back to their listing in the PAML. Bleh. From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 14 05:09:02 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA07225; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 05:01:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgate.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (mailgate.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.64.97]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA07218 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 05:01:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (root@rzstud4.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.197.172]) by mailgate.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de with smtp (Exim 3.02 #2) id 11xrhp-00063o-00; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:09:30 +0100 From: Marc.Haber-lists@gmx.de (Marc Haber) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Verifying mailing list membership through Sender: Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:09:17 GMT Organization: posting from University of Karlsruhe, Germany X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi! At a site I am doing administration for, I am subscribed to numerous mailing lists. For each mailing list, I have used a different subscription address since I'd like to find out which list is being scanned by spammers to pull addresses from. All incoming mail to these lists ends up in the same mailbox though. My MUA on that system is mutt 0.95.3, MTA is exim 3.12. When I try to send a message to one of these mailing lists, I change =46rom: to the address I am subscribed with since the list is closed-post. exim notices that From: doesn't fit the account I am mailing from and adds a Sender: header showing the address associated with that account. This is compliant with RfC822. However, the MLM that handles this particular list verifies list membership against Sender: if that header is present and thus rejects my message since I am subscribed with a different address. I feel that this MLM is at fault here since my MTA is doing everything "by the book". A possible solution is to disable exim's feature to add a "Sender:" header in that case, but I'd like to refrain from doing so. May I ask your opinion? Greetings Marc --=20 -------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! = ----- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im = Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | Fon: *49 721 966 32= 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fax: *49 721 966 31= 29 From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 14 07:24:06 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA08363; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:06:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.rev.net (mercury.rev.net [206.67.68.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA08355 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:06:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from bernie.rev.net (admin2.rev.net [12.26.100.205]) by mercury.rev.net (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id dBEFEbg23087 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:14:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199912141514.dBEFEbg23087@mercury.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:16:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Verifying mailing list membership through Sender: Reply-to: bernie@fantasyfarm.com In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 14 Dec 99, at 13:09, Marc Haber wrote: > When I try to send a message to one of these mailing lists, I change > From: to the address I am subscribed with since the list is > closed-post. exim notices that From: doesn't fit the account I am > mailing from and adds a Sender: header showing the address associated > with that account. This is compliant with RfC822. > > However, the MLM that handles this particular list verifies list > membership against Sender: if that header is present and thus rejects > my message since I am subscribed with a different address. I feel that > this MLM is at fault here since my MTA is doing everything "by the > book". Well, for what it is worth, I agree with you: the MLM is in error on this one, IMO. But I'm not sure you have much choice, since in my experience complaints to MLM ops about this kind of thing don't usually result in much happening... BUT... make sure it _is_ 'sender', though: I've had this problem with MLMs in the past where the MLM is actually using the SMTP wrapper ID, and not anything in the message itself, as the verification address, and when I switched from having the SMTP address be my 'sender' address to being the 'from' address, the problem went away. /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 14 08:38:33 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA09213; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:34:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ivan.iecc.com (ivan.iecc.com [208.31.42.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA09206 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:34:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 12654 invoked by uid 100); 14 Dec 1999 11:42:16 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:42:16 -0500 (EST) From: John R Levine To: Marc Haber cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Verifying mailing list membership through Sender: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > However, the MLM that handles this particular list verifies list > membership against Sender: if that header is present and thus rejects > my message since I am subscribed with a different address. I feel that > this MLM is at fault here since my MTA is doing everything "by the > book". The MLM is just plain broken. It's entirely legitimate for the Sender: not to match the From:, and if they disagree, the From: is one to pay attention to. This happens both for people like you and me who use a unique address per list, and for people who have multiple accounts but use a single e-mail address. For example, when I'm travelling, I use my laptop to dial into IBM (now AT&T's) network, so the Sender: from my laptop would be jlevine@ibm.net, but the From: is still me. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl, Sewer Commissioner Finger for PGP key, f'print = 3A 5B D0 3F D9 A0 6A A4 2D AC 1E 9E A6 36 A3 47 From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 14 12:13:55 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA11902; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:03:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA11895 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from v4j31 (ip12.proper.com [165.227.249.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03549; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:08:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.1.19991214120859.00b83220@mail.imc.org> X-Sender: paulh@mail.imc.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.1 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:12:14 -0800 To: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: A List Archive Site that's Spamming In-Reply-To: <19991214064738.424A5322F8@citadel.in.taronga.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:47 AM 12/14/99 -0600, Stephanie da Silva wrote: >The slogan on ListQuest.com is "Building Communities of Like-Minded >People". I wish I could do a turnabout is fair play and write all >the listowners currently archiving there to say "Hi, you're hosted >by a spammer, does this mean you're a spammer too?" That should work. On the other hand, this might all be moot. On their computers bulletin board (which might be considered a popular topic), they have 25 registered members. It might not be worth the effort. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 14 19:48:41 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA16066; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from antiochus-fe0.ultra.net (antiochus-fe0.ultra.net [146.115.8.188]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA16059 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:21:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager (d27.dial-1.wal.ma.ultra.net [146.115.77.27]) by antiochus-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with SMTP id WAA02351; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:29:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19991215033012.00f7f320@pop.ma.ultranet.com> X-Sender: stanr@pop.ma.ultranet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:30:12 -0500 To: Marc.Haber-lists@gmx.de (Marc Haber) From: Stan Ryckman Subject: Re: Verifying mailing list membership through Sender: Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:09 PM 12/14/99 GMT, Marc Haber wrote: ... > My MUA on that system is >mutt 0.95.3, MTA is exim 3.12. > >When I try to send a message to one of these mailing lists, I change >From: to the address I am subscribed with since the list is >closed-post. exim notices that From: doesn't fit the account I am >mailing from and adds a Sender: header showing the address associated >with that account. This is compliant with RfC822. > >However, the MLM that handles this particular list verifies list >membership against Sender: if that header is present and thus rejects >my message since I am subscribed with a different address. I feel that >this MLM is at fault here since my MTA is doing everything "by the >book". If it is the Sender: header (as Bernie Cosell noted, it might be the envelope-sender, in which case you're SOL setting just the RFC822 headers), one workaround to try may be to set the Sender: header to your subscribed address as well (Mutt can do this). Then exim should add a Resent-Sender: header instead. If you're lucky, the MLM will be too dumb to look at that :-) Good luck, Stan ps - is this some home-grown MLM, or something someone here might have heard about? From list-managers-owner Wed Dec 15 08:09:27 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA26114; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:59:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgate.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (mailgate.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.64.97]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA26107 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:58:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (root@rzstud4.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.197.4]) by mailgate.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de with smtp (Exim 3.02 #2) id 11yGxF-0007Tb-00; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:07:05 +0100 From: Marc.Haber-lists@gmx.de (Marc Haber) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Verifying mailing list membership through Sender: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:06:53 GMT Organization: posting from University of Karlsruhe, Germany References: <2.2.32.19991215033012.00f7f320@pop.ma.ultranet.com> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19991215033012.00f7f320@pop.ma.ultranet.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:30:12 -0500, you wrote: >If it is the Sender: header (as Bernie Cosell noted, it might >be the envelope-sender, in which case you're SOL setting just >the RFC822 headers), Yes, I forgot about that. Inquiry to the list owner went out recently. >ps - is this some home-grown MLM, or something someone here >might have heard about? X-Mailman-Version: 1.1 Greetings Marc --=20 -------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! = ----- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im = Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | Fon: *49 721 966 32= 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fax: *49 721 966 31= 29 From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 16 14:21:45 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA17586; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:18:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from lists.divalists.com (sp160.seattle-bandwidth.org [207.202.145.160]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA17579 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:18:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by lists.divalists.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04834 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:21:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:21:21 -0800 (PST) From: Kamal To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: problem with sendmail 8.9.3 and majordomo Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We just installed sendmail 8.9.3 We are running majordomo 1.94.4 Sendmail is not recognizing the list addresses. It keeps returning User Uknown whenever we send mail to a list. We've been working on this for 2 days. This has become a critical situation. Here is part of the error message : (I removed the list name) Please help. Thank you. ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- :include:/usr/local/majordomo/lists/[listname] (expanded from: [listname]-outgoing) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Receiving 25 From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 17 00:05:49 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA23177; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 00:03:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pa.scotland.net (pa2.scotland.net [194.247.65.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA23170 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 00:03:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [148.176.235.188] (helo=beckyvac) by pa.scotland.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #4) id 11ysVS-00015g-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:12:54 +0000 Message-ID: <010d01bf4866$3721f6a0$bcebb094@beckyvac> From: "Becky" To: References: Subject: Looking for a new list server Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:10:32 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Everyone, Someone else may have already asked but I just joined this list as I am desperately looking for a new list server using Majordomo. Every list owner with Esosoft has been told that they have merged with Topica and all our lists will be moved within a week. Some people's lists have been moved within the day. Many of us don't want advertising and we are looking for a new server as soon as possible. We also don't want to loose the control over our lists as we have been handling our own Config files. We need something with digests and archives as well. We were paying $5.00 a month for our service with Esosoft but anything reasonable would be considered. Can any of you recommend a server which you are happy with? It would be greatly appreciated by many homeless lists. Thanks in advance. Becky From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 17 02:50:53 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id CAA26270; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 02:36:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from angel.comcen.com.au (angel.comcen.com.au [203.23.236.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA26262 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 02:35:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [203.56.244.183] (modem055.memnoch.comcen.com.au [203.56.244.115]) by angel.comcen.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA22208; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:42:50 +1100 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: johnstev@pop3.syd.comcen.com.au Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <010d01bf4866$3721f6a0$bcebb094@beckyvac> References: <010d01bf4866$3721f6a0$bcebb094@beckyvac> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:38:01 +1100 To: "Becky" From: John Stevenson Subject: Re: Looking for a new list server Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Hi Everyone, > >Someone else may have already asked but I just joined this list as I am >desperately looking for a new list server using Majordomo. Every list owner >with Esosoft has been told that they have merged with Topica and all our lists >will be moved within a week. Some people's lists have been moved within the >day. Many of us don't want advertising and we are looking for a new server as >soon as possible. We also don't want to loose the control over our lists as >we have been handling our own Config files. We need something with digests >and archives as well. We were paying $5.00 a month for our service with >Esosoft but anything reasonable would be considered. Can any of you recommend >a server which you are happy with? It would be greatly appreciated by many >homeless lists. For what it's worth you have my sympathy, and if I find a home for my list, which has also just been swallowed by Topica, I'll let you know. Topica does provide digests, though this is far from obvious. Individual subscribers can switch to digest mode at the web site. Topica also archives messages. The ads on messages are currently trivial; they are just an ad for the site itself. I've been with Topica for a few days and my biggest objection is the sheer time it takes to do anything with their foul and kludgy web site. Clearly they *could* provide the kind of email interface we're used to, but they choose not to, because they want to drive traffic to their site and eyeballs for the banner ads there. I estimate it's going to take me an extra couple of hours a month to run my list via their site. At a sensible costing of my time, it would be cheaper to pay typical ISP charges for a majordomo-hosted list. That last point is the one I want to spread among the list-manager community here: these web-based 'free' list services are far from that, when you factor in the additional time it takes to hack through web interfaces designed by clueless idiots instead of banging simple commands at majordomo via email. -- John Stevenson Writer, editor, mountain bike bloke From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 17 05:05:49 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA29880; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 05:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntcorp.dn.net (ntcorp.dn.net [207.226.172.79]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA29873 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 05:01:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (fidelman@localhost) by ntcorp.dn.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA27328; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:08:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:08:08 -0500 (EST) From: Miles Fidelman X-Sender: fidelman@ntcorp.dn.net To: Becky cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Looking for a new list server In-Reply-To: <010d01bf4866$3721f6a0$bcebb094@beckyvac> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Becky wrote: > we have been handling our own Config files. We need something with digests > and archives as well. We were paying $5.00 a month for our service with > Esosoft but anything reasonable would be considered. Can any of you recommend > a server which you are happy with? It would be greatly appreciated by many > homeless lists. try software tool and die (the world) at www.std.com - they've been around forever in Internet time (they were the first vendor to provide public access to the Internet) and are very reliable last time I looked, their shell account included 2 lists and additional lists are $5/mo. ************************************************************************** The Center for Civic Networking PO Box 600618 Miles R. Fidelman, President & Newtonville, MA 02460-0006 Director, Municipal Telecommunications Strategies Program 617-558-3698 fax: 617-630-8946 mfidelman@civicnet.org http://civic.net/ccn.html Information Infrastructure: Public Spaces for the 21st Century Let's Start With: Internet Wall-Plugs Everywhere Say It Often, Say It Loud: "I Want My Internet!" ************************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 17 06:20:55 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA00980; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 06:19:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from raven.a001.sprintmail.com (raven.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA00970 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 06:19:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from earthlink (sdn-ar-006waseatP091.dialsprint.net [168.191.237.179]) by raven.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA03890 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 06:27:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003901bf489a$b675cc40$0100a8c0@earthlink> Reply-To: "Chris McEwen" From: "Chris McEwen" To: References: <010d01bf4866$3721f6a0$bcebb094@beckyvac> Subject: Is Topica Out to Rule the World? Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 06:26:28 -0800 Organization: Socrates Press, Keyport WA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Interesting turn of events yesterday. I found that Topica has taken over list services from the company that was providing this for me. We were running a majordomo list and things were so smooth that something had to break. In looking for other low cost majordomo providers, I found that Esosoft isn't alone. Several other providers in the same market segment are now showing banners saying that Topica will be taking over their lists. Any thoughts on this? Is this only my take on the scene? Who else offers low cost (<$10/month) majordomo service? --Chris McEwen Socrates Press, Keyport WA socrates@sprintmail.com From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 17 06:50:50 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA01300; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 06:43:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix1.sihope.com (unix1.sihope.com [209.98.16.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA01293 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 06:43:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from DSL1123 (dsl-1-123.sihope.com [209.98.133.30]) by unix1.sihope.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id IAA17899; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:51:28 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <02a801bf489d$c4517000$1e8562d1@sihope.com> Reply-To: "Andrew P. Tasi" From: "Andrew P. Tasi" To: "Becky" , "John Stevenson" Cc: References: <010d01bf4866$3721f6a0$bcebb094@beckyvac> Subject: Re: Looking for a new list server Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:48:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello Becky, John, and List gurus, I'm in the exact same boat, so if anybody has any recommendations, I'd very much appreciate a public response. My list was moved within one day and I'm *pissed*. The ironic part is that I have a nice, live server running Redhat 6.1 that I could be running my list on (majordomo is already installed), but I kept my list at Esosoft. Why? -Convenience - it was worth it to me to pay $5 a month and not have to worry about OS or SMTP issues, and to get their silly reports. -Clueless - Although I'm very secure with actual MD administration (figured out niceties like how to filter HTML and certain addresses), I have *no* experience with Linux or Unix, other than setting up a workstation via FTP 2 weeks ago. I am unfortunately a windows child (and not liking it anymore). So either I move to another ASP or I become competent with Linux quickly. Anybody want to recommend a book or three? Thank you, Andrew P. Tasi ----- Original Message ----- From: John Stevenson To: Becky Cc: Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 4:38 AM Subject: Re: Looking for a new list server > >Hi Everyone, > > > >Someone else may have already asked but I just joined this list as I am > >desperately looking for a new list server using Majordomo. Every list owner > >with Esosoft has been told that they have merged with Topica and all our lists > >will be moved within a week. Some people's lists have been moved within the > >day. Many of us don't want advertising and we are looking for a new server as > >soon as possible. We also don't want to loose the control over our lists as > >we have been handling our own Config files. We need something with digests > >and archives as well. We were paying $5.00 a month for our service with > >Esosoft but anything reasonable would be considered. Can any of you recommend > >a server which you are happy with? It would be greatly appreciated by many > >homeless lists. > > For what it's worth you have my sympathy, and if I find a home for my > list, which has also just been swallowed by Topica, I'll let you know. > > Topica does provide digests, though this is far from obvious. > Individual subscribers can switch to digest mode at the web site. > Topica also archives messages. > > The ads on messages are currently trivial; they are just an ad for > the site itself. > > I've been with Topica for a few days and my biggest objection is the > sheer time it takes to do anything with their foul and kludgy web > site. Clearly they *could* provide the kind of email interface we're > used to, but they choose not to, because they want to drive traffic > to their site and eyeballs for the banner ads there. I estimate it's > going to take me an extra couple of hours a month to run my list via > their site. At a sensible costing of my time, it would be cheaper to > pay typical ISP charges for a majordomo-hosted list. > > That last point is the one I want to spread among the list-manager > community here: these web-based 'free' list services are far from > that, when you factor in the additional time it takes to hack through > web interfaces designed by clueless idiots instead of banging simple > commands at majordomo via email. > -- > > John Stevenson > Writer, editor, mountain bike bloke > From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 17 07:20:52 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA01636; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from gva.net (MAIL.GVA.NET [216.80.135.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id HAA01629 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:07:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912171507.HAA01629@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from default [216.80.135.109] by gva.net [216.80.135.3] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP5.R) for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:11:11 -0500 From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:10:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Looking for a new list server References: <010d01bf4866$3721f6a0$bcebb094@beckyvac> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-Return-Path: bernie@fantasyfarm.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 17 Dec 99, at 8:08, Miles Fidelman wrote: > On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Becky wrote: > > > we have been handling our own Config files. We need something with digests > > and archives as well. We were paying $5.00 a month for our service with > > Esosoft but anything reasonable would be considered. Can any of you recommend > > a server which you are happy with? It would be greatly appreciated by many > > homeless lists. > > try software tool and die (the world) at www.std.com - they've been around > forever in Internet time (they were the first vendor to provide public > access to the Internet) and are very reliable But be warned: I don't know if they're still doing the same thing, but I moved my mailing lists OFF of their system when I ran into trouble because they had some cockamamie "spam block" that had the result that some AOL folk couldn't send mail to my list [nor send mail to me directly]. I left them some time ago but I got an email from a friend still with std as recently as six month ago mentioning that he was still having trouble receiving email from some of his AOL correspondents... /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 17 09:50:50 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA03681; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:43:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from pa.scotland.net (pa1.scotland.net [194.247.64.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA03674 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [148.176.238.23] (helo=beckyvac) by pa.scotland.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #4) id 11z1Xw-0007FA-00; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:52:05 +0000 Message-ID: <00f501bf48b7$1f7157c0$c6e9b094@beckyvac> From: "Becky" To: "Andrew P. Tasi" , "John Stevenson" Cc: References: <010d01bf4866$3721f6a0$bcebb094@beckyvac> <02a801bf489d$c4517000$1e8562d1@sihope.com> Subject: Re: Looking for a new list server Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:49:37 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Everyone, I feel so much better here. I've been studying and I think I found a list server. I've taken the plunge and gone with them. Here is the information I have. This may not be perfect for those with a large list but this guy has offered all of you the same thing he offered me, if you've been shut down by a server he will host your list for free for the next two weeks and at that time if you don't choose to stay it will cost you nothing. The one sticky point is he only excepts Visa, or you can pay by check but you would have to pay a week before your free two weeks are up, still it seems fair to me. They are running Majordomo 1.94.4 you control your own config file. Web archives are available but at an extra charge. When you start a list you have to join their list-owner support list much like MLA was. This guy was really great on the phone I talked to him for about 20 minutes and I think I'll really be happy there. Below is the e-mail he sent me, I had explained the situation to him. Look through his web site at: http://www.halisp.net/halisp/mailprice.html >Whether you choose to stay with us or not I can offer you a temporary >home for the next two weeks starting immediately. Please send the >name of the list and the password that you wish to use for >configuration purposes and I will set it up immediately, gratis. > >If you choose to stay our fee for a list of the size you describe is >$120.00 CAD per annum. We only accept VISA for payments. The limits >of the service provided for this fee are described below: > >Enhanced mailing list service. Includes digest option and archives. >$120.00 CAD per year. >Limit 360 subscribers. >Message traffic not to exceed 3 Mb per day. >On-line list archives limited to 60 Mb total. > >Other terms and conditions can be found at: >http://www.halisp.net/halisp/mailprice.html > >We use majordomo 1.9.4 with tlb 0.9.b to manage list traffic. > >We have been in business since 1892 (although only providing internet >services since November 1995). We have had our lists solicited by >these "free" e-mail list hosts previously and have declined the >"opportunity" presented. Your list is your list, you pay for and it >stays here until you decide to move it elsewhere or shut it down. > >Regards, >Jim >-- >James B. Byrne ByrneJB@Harte-Lyne.ca >Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca >9 Brockley Drive >Hamilton, Ontario fax:+1 905 561 0757 >Canada L8E 3C3 vox:+1 905 561 1241 > From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 17 11:51:07 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA05231; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:49:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ikkoku.maison-otaku.net (ikkoku.maison-otaku.net [207.195.149.217]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA05224 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:49:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from godai.maison-otaku.net (godai.maison-otaku.net [216.122.4.241]) by ikkoku.maison-otaku.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66182AF89D; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:10:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (loki@localhost) by godai.maison-otaku.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA17049; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:57:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: godai.maison-otaku.net: loki owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:57:38 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Blackman To: Becky Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Looking for a new list server In-Reply-To: <010d01bf4866$3721f6a0$bcebb094@beckyvac> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Becky wrote: > Esosoft but anything reasonable would be considered. Can any of you > recommend a server which you are happy with? It would be greatly > appreciated by many homeless lists. Well, there are the usual ones (eGroups, Onelist, Coollist), but I cannot say I much care for any of them. I am involved in a project to create a service called 'Lightlist' (http://www.lightlist.com/), which is functional but in the very earliest stages of development (for example, web archiving can be set up, but is Hypermail or MHOnArc based at the moment). On the plus side, Lightlist -does- have admin and user interfaces over both web and e-mail... it is (unsurprisingly) based around Listar, as opposed to Majordomo, though. We do host lists already, though, asking for their feedback on what should be provided in the way of functionality as we build up. -- Jeremy Blackman - loki@maison-otaku.net / loki@listar.org / jeremy@lith.com Lithtech Team, Monolith Productions -- http://www.lith.com Listar Developer -- http://www.listar.org From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 17 12:05:51 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA05308; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sparknet.net (mail.sparknet.net [207.67.22.140]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA05301 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from z (z.sparknet.net [206.230.221.11]) by mail.sparknet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28294 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:08:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991217133251.01e5aec0@207.67.22.140> X-Sender: chriss@207.67.22.140 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:59:22 -0600 To: From: Christopher Knight Subject: Re: Looking for a new list server In-Reply-To: <010d01bf4866$3721f6a0$bcebb094@beckyvac> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:10 AM 12/17/1999 +0000, Becky wrote: >Hi Everyone, >Someone else may have already asked but I just joined this list as I am >desperately looking for a new list server using Majordomo. Every list= owner First, I should congratulate Topica, on the fine catch. We had numerous calls today from former clients of that other majordomo provider who just exited..... :) Anyway, just wanted to throw my hat in the ring. Cheers! Christopher M. Knight SparkLIST.com LLC =95 The Business Email List Experts =95 --------------------------------------------------------------- SparkLIST Email List Hosting, Promotions & Management Service Tel: +1 888-SparkNET, ext 212 or +1 920-490-5901, ext 212 Private Fax: +1 920-490.5909 =95 http://SparkLIST.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 17 12:50:49 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA05825; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:47:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA05818 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA14019; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:55:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:55:23 -0500 From: Tim Pierce To: John Stevenson Cc: Becky , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Looking for a new list server Message-ID: <19991217155523.I25235@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <010d01bf4866$3721f6a0$bcebb094@beckyvac> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7us In-Reply-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, folks -- Not to be in poor taste, but RootsWeb hosts basically any list that's genealogical or historical. For what it's worth: * List hosting is free and we put taglines on the bottom of your list mail. Right now we're only bannering ourselves, but we take advertisements periodically (mostly from genealogy-oriented companies). * Perks include Web archives (searchable and threaded), attachment and HTML filtering, mostly-automatic bounce processing, and both e-mail and Web-based administrative interfaces. * We are not a Majordomo-based service, but a SmartList-based service. Yeah, I know, it's weird, but it works pretty well, and it permits managing the list via e-mail. * I think our Web list admin interface is pretty cool and not clunky, but I am biased. I'll try to set up a demo if people want to see it. To submit a list creation request, http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/contributors/listrequest.html. End of tacky self-promotion. -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb.com lead system admonsterator and Chief Hacking Officer From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 17 15:37:47 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA07123; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:14:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA07116 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:14:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA25584 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:23:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA23289 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:23:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:23:03 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: List Service Providers In-Reply-To: <00f501bf48b7$1f7157c0$c6e9b094@beckyvac> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brian Edmonds maintains a list of mailing list service providers. - http://www.gweep.bc.ca/~edmonds/usenet/ml-providers.html - send email to majordomo@gweep.bc.ca with the following line in the body of the message: get faq ml-providers.txt Contact: Brian Edmonds Vivian Neou maintains a similar list of host sites along with additional useful information about mailing lists such as her venerable "List of Lists" and a web page describing various mailing list software packages. - http://www.catalog.com/vivian/ Contact: Vivian Neou Cleo Kiernan at Interspeed Net maintains an unoffical listowner guide which includes a page of mailing list service providers and various mailing list related links at: - http://angus.interspeed.net/listowner/provide.html Contact: Cleo Kiernan The list host providers offer very wide range of services including: discussion lists, announcement lists, digests, archiving, web interfaced search engines, full-service list management, etc. Prices for hosting services range from free, with ads appended to posts, to hundreds of dollars a month. Prices vary with number of subscribers, traffic volume, added features and the level of service. To have your mailing list host services listed on these pages, contact the the folks who maintain the lists at the addresses listed above. - murr - From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 17 15:46:08 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA07185; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:21:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from 99bus23.tampabay.rr.com (99bus23.tampabay.rr.com [24.94.99.23]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA07178 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (wane@localhost) by 99bus23.tampabay.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29356; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:28:14 -0600 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:28:14 -0600 (CST) From: Amadou Wane To: "Andrew P. Tasi" cc: Becky , John Stevenson , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Looking for a new list server In-Reply-To: <02a801bf489d$c4517000$1e8562d1@sihope.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Try "Linux Secrets" by Naba Barkakati. On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Andrew P. Tasi wrote: > Hello Becky, John, and List gurus, > > I'm in the exact same boat, so if anybody has any recommendations, I'd very > much appreciate a public response. > > My list was moved within one day and I'm *pissed*. The ironic part is that > I have a nice, live server running Redhat 6.1 that I could be running my > list on (majordomo is already installed), but I kept my list at Esosoft. > Why? > -Convenience - it was worth it to me to pay $5 a month and not have to worry > about OS or SMTP issues, and to get their silly reports. > -Clueless - Although I'm very secure with actual MD administration (figured > out niceties like how to filter HTML and certain addresses), I have *no* > experience with Linux or Unix, other than setting up a workstation via FTP 2 > weeks ago. I am unfortunately a windows child (and not liking it anymore). > > So either I move to another ASP or I become competent with Linux quickly. > Anybody want to recommend a book or three? > > Thank you, > Andrew P. Tasi > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Stevenson > To: Becky > Cc: > Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 4:38 AM > Subject: Re: Looking for a new list server > > > > >Hi Everyone, > > > > > >Someone else may have already asked but I just joined this list as I am > > >desperately looking for a new list server using Majordomo. Every list > owner > > >with Esosoft has been told that they have merged with Topica and all our > lists > > >will be moved within a week. Some people's lists have been moved within > the > > >day. Many of us don't want advertising and we are looking for a new > server as > > >soon as possible. We also don't want to loose the control over our lists > as > > >we have been handling our own Config files. We need something with > digests > > >and archives as well. We were paying $5.00 a month for our service with > > >Esosoft but anything reasonable would be considered. Can any of you > recommend > > >a server which you are happy with? It would be greatly appreciated by > many > > >homeless lists. > > > > For what it's worth you have my sympathy, and if I find a home for my > > list, which has also just been swallowed by Topica, I'll let you know. > > > > Topica does provide digests, though this is far from obvious. > > Individual subscribers can switch to digest mode at the web site. > > Topica also archives messages. > > > > The ads on messages are currently trivial; they are just an ad for > > the site itself. > > > > I've been with Topica for a few days and my biggest objection is the > > sheer time it takes to do anything with their foul and kludgy web > > site. Clearly they *could* provide the kind of email interface we're > > used to, but they choose not to, because they want to drive traffic > > to their site and eyeballs for the banner ads there. I estimate it's > > going to take me an extra couple of hours a month to run my list via > > their site. At a sensible costing of my time, it would be cheaper to > > pay typical ISP charges for a majordomo-hosted list. > > > > That last point is the one I want to spread among the list-manager > > community here: these web-based 'free' list services are far from > > that, when you factor in the additional time it takes to hack through > > web interfaces designed by clueless idiots instead of banging simple > > commands at majordomo via email. > > -- > > > > John Stevenson > > Writer, editor, mountain bike bloke > > > From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 17 15:51:01 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA07380; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgate1.oh.voyager.net (mailgate1.oh.voyager.net [207.0.229.29]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA07373 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:46:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from en.en.com (grover.en.com [204.89.181.10]) by mailgate1.oh.voyager.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA25535 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:55:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199912172355.SAA25535@mailgate1.oh.voyager.net> X-Sender: lncnurse@mailback.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:49:58 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Nicole Marie Spring Subject: Fwd: Re: Looking for a new list server Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Listmates, This is the service that I use. I am more than pleased. Service is prompt and courteous. They also offer standard majordomo discussion list service at $9.95/month per 100 subscribers http://www.databack.com/maillists.htm#DBMAILER Sincerely, Nicole Marie Spring, RN Legal Nurse Consultants spring@legalnurseconsultants.com Listowner, LNCNURSE http://www.legalnurseconsultants.com From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 17 23:50:48 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA10924; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 23:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix1.sihope.com (unix1.sihope.com [209.98.16.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA10917 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 23:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from DSL1123 (dsl-1-123.sihope.com [209.98.133.30]) by unix1.sihope.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id BAA28743 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 01:58:41 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <022301bf492c$ee939020$1e8562d1@sihope.com> Reply-To: "Andrew P. Tasi" From: "Andrew P. Tasi" To: References: <010d01bf4866$3721f6a0$bcebb094@beckyvac> <19991217155523.I25235@ma-1.rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: Looking for a new list server Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 01:53:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Becky- I'm glad to hear your list woes are resolved. I'm still working to resolve mine. The problem with most ASPs is they either won't touch my list, or they want to charge me an arm and a leg (had two quotes for $1000 per *month*!) Here's the breakdown on my list: about 1,000 total subscribers ~350 real-time subscribers ~650 digest subscribers average of 106 messages per day average of 6.7 digests per day I use a character limit of 5,000 on individual messages, so they never exceed 6KB in size Digests are kicked off every 20,000 characters To reduce bandwith, I only allow straight text, no HTML and no attachments Note that the content is NOT commercial or adult in nature (we talk cars) Most ASPs I've been talking to count the total number of messages by multiplying the montly messages by the number of subscribers. In my case, that's over 1,000,000 per month, and they aren't discounting for my bandwidth-saving measures. Help! I either want to find a really rockin' ASP that I can afford long-term -or- just a temporary home until I complete a permenant move to my server. Note that I currently use majordomo, but am open to more powerful options. Thank you for your suggestions. Regards, Andrew P. Tasi -The only good Topica is an offline Topica From list-managers-owner Sat Dec 18 00:35:49 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA11360; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 00:34:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from newmail.spectraweb.ch (newmail.spectraweb.ch [194.158.230.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA11351 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 00:34:27 -0800 (PST) From: nb@thinkcoach.com Received: from quill.thinkcoach.com (194.230.238.84) by newmail.spectraweb.ch; 18 Dec 1999 09:43:06 +0100 Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.thinkcoach.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA03837; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 09:38:51 +0100 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 09:38:51 +0100 Message-Id: <199912180838.JAA03837@quill.thinkcoach.com> X-Authentication-Warning: quill.thinkcoach.com: norbert set sender to Norbert Bollow using -f Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: Cc: socrates@sprintmail.com In-reply-to: <003901bf489a$b675cc40$0100a8c0@earthlink> (socrates@sprintmail.com) Subject: Re: Is Topica Out to Rule the World? References: <010d01bf4866$3721f6a0$bcebb094@beckyvac> <003901bf489a$b675cc40$0100a8c0@earthlink> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Any thoughts on this? Is this only my take on the scene? Who else offers low > cost (<$10/month) majordomo service? If you're knowledgeable about Majordomo already, I'll host your list(s) for $30 setup fee plus $0.025 per megabyte of data transfer. For a list with 200 subscribers, 250 msgs a month, at about 4K per message, this would be $5/month. I can implement any additional feature that you may possibly desire, but obviously that type of support is not cheap. May blessings from the eternal God surprise and overtake you! Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow, Coach http://thinkcoach.com Backup email: nb@pobox.com From list-managers-owner Sat Dec 18 00:50:49 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA11487; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 00:50:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from Planet.fef.com (planet.fef.com [198.147.196.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA11474 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 00:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from alvin@localhost) by Planet.fef.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01899; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 23:54:49 -0800 From: Alvin Oga Message-Id: <199912180754.XAA01899@Planet.fef.com> Subject: Re: Looking for a new list server To: zion@sihope.com Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 23:54:48 -0800 (PST) Cc: planet!alvin (Alvin Oga), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <022301bf492c$ee939020$1e8562d1@sihope.com> from "Andrew P. Tasi" at Dec 18, 1999 01:53:10 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk hi ya andrew at a $1,000/month... you can get 2 co-lo servers !!! at the major co-lo in silicon valley... most nowdays go for about $1,500 for a rack ....1Mbps thruput... and the old days was $200-$500 per standard PC server... but seems competition is drving up prices in some ranges and dropping others prices of other services... i claim a shared t1-sized "small co-lo" server is about $200/month... depending on loading... ( bytes per msg per day per month etc... have fun alvin@linux-consulting.com > Becky- I'm glad to hear your list woes are resolved. I'm still working to > resolve mine. The problem with most ASPs is they either won't touch my > list, or they want to charge me an arm and a leg (had two quotes for $1000 > per *month*!) Here's the breakdown on my list: > > about 1,000 total subscribers > ~350 real-time subscribers > ~650 digest subscribers > average of 106 messages per day > average of 6.7 digests per day > I use a character limit of 5,000 on individual messages, so they never > exceed 6KB in size > Digests are kicked off every 20,000 characters > To reduce bandwith, I only allow straight text, no HTML and no attachments > Note that the content is NOT commercial or adult in nature (we talk cars) > > Most ASPs I've been talking to count the total number of messages by > multiplying the montly messages by the number of subscribers. In my case, > that's over 1,000,000 per month, and they aren't discounting for my > bandwidth-saving measures. Help! I either want to find a really rockin' > ASP that I can afford long-term -or- just a temporary home until I complete > a permenant move to my server. Note that I currently use majordomo, but am > open to more powerful options. Thank you for your suggestions. > > Regards, > Andrew P. Tasi > -The only good Topica is an offline Topica > From list-managers-owner Sat Dec 18 11:38:25 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA20206; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:07:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id LAA20184 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from tor-srs1.netcom.ca (tor-srs1.netcom.ca [207.93.1.148]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA06364 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:58:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sharon-p133 (ott-on5-92.netcom.ca [216.123.119.92]) by tor-srs1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06359 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:07:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199912172207.RAA06359@tor-srs1.netcom.ca> X-Sender: sharon@pop.listhost.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:57:47 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Sharon Tucci Subject: Re: Looking for a new list server In-Reply-To: <010d01bf4866$3721f6a0$bcebb094@beckyvac> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I had stayed quiet since I had hoped one of our own customers would mention us :) We use Software.com's Post.Office software which is very similar to majordomo in terms of functionality and commands for email management. The advantage is that it is easier for an end user to configure and it also offers web-based management. Our rates start at either $10/month or $79/year. (That gives you ability to send out up to 2 messages a day for an announcement list to 2,000 subscribers). We've had awesome uptime (since March 98, we've been down only 4 hours, half of which was attributed to a router needing to be replaced). Anyhow, our site is at . For those of you affected by your provider changing hands or similar circumstances, we'll take $10 off the $25 set-up fee if you mention this list. In a couple of days, we'll be announcing a referral program running through January 31st that is giving away a top guaranteed prize of $5,000. (To get info on this when it's announced, just subscribe to our newsletter when visiting our site.) Sharon Tucci P.S. FWIW, we've also moved some of our customers over to Topica. However, we're not discontinuing our existing service. From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 19 07:38:29 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA02834; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 07:30:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from ifolk.iserver.net (ifolk.iserver.net [192.41.44.203]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA02825 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 07:30:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from patroon ([160.43.47.9]) by ifolk.iserver.net (8.8.5) id KAA19720; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 10:39:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Tom Neff" To: Subject: Another way to escape the Topica/Egroups/Lyris playpen... Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 09:39:28 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-Reply-To: <199912190900.BAA27026@honor.greatcircle.com> Importance: Normal Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keep in mind that instead of groveling to Topica or any of those services, you can have your own dedicated server for about $100/mo these days, and on that dedicated server you can install Majordomo, Majorcool, and anything else your heart desires, and serve 10 or 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 users without asking permission from, or paying your life savings to, anybody. Of course $100/mo is money, but on a list like this where myriads of list managers congregate, how hard would it be to put together a co-op of 10 or 20 people, with more to come, who would chip in and share the expense? Imagine controlling your own list's destiny, spam free, and paying $5/mo for the privilege. I don't work for them or have any other connection, except as a satisfied customer, but one place where you can get cheap dedicated servers is SkyNetWeb ( http://www.skynetweb.com ). From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 19 10:38:23 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA04245; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 10:33:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from vjs.org (cc50165-b.hwrd1.md.home.com [24.9.159.241]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA04238 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 10:32:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [24.9.159.241] (24.9.159.241) by vjs.org with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:41:39 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 5.0 for Cray T3E-1200 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:41:07 -0500 To: From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Another way to escape the Topica/Egroups/Lyris playpen... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 09:39 -0500 12/19/1999, Tom Neff sent us: >Keep in mind that instead of groveling to Topica My, our paranoia runs deep. Groveling to Topica? I don't recall having to grovel in order to run a mailing list there. Putting Lyris in with free hosting services? Apples and oranges; Lyris is a list server, not a hosting service. (Lyris.NET is a hosting service, running on several Lyris servers, but it's not free, and it's certainly not in the same category as Topica and/or eGroups.) Nothing wrong with setting up one's own server; I think it's a great idea. I run a couple of my own, as well as running lists on Topica and Lyris.net. And a non-disclaimer (a claimer?): I am a technical advisor to Topica, and also work pretty closely with Lyris Technologies -- which is why I am steering clear of endorsing either of those services in this message. I just want to clear up some of the FUD that seems to be building here. Enjoy ... __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Got Bounces? vince-lists@vjs.org Got Jokes? Got Spam? From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 19 11:32:22 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA04605; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mu.clarityconnect.net (mu.clarityconnect.net [209.150.250.243]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA04595 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bhuston@localhost) by mu.clarityconnect.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA10101; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:23:46 -0600 From: Bill Huston Message-Id: <199912192023.OAA10101@mu.clarityconnect.net> Subject: Re: Another way to escape the Topica/Egroups/Lyris playpen... To: tneff@panix.com (Tom Neff) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:22:45 -0600 (EST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Tom Neff" at Dec 19, 99 09:39:28 am Reply-To: bhuston@eden.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thus typed Tom Neff: >Keep in mind that instead of groveling to Topica or any of those services, >you can have your own dedicated server for about $100/mo these days, and on >that dedicated server you can install Majordomo, Majorcool, and anything >else your heart desires, There is a cheaper solution! I pay: Dedicated phone line: $25/mo ISP charges: $20/mo Static IP/DNS: $20/yr. So, I pay about $50/mo, and I am connected 24x7. But of course this doesn't include the cost of the computer. Mine is a 486/66 w/128MB RAM (which you can pick up for about $100 used if you shop around), running Slackware Linux, which you can d/l free. This config with a 33k dialup is more that sufficient to run Majordomo, a web server, Mhonarc, etc. -- Bill Huston (bhuston@eden.com) Sun Dec 19 14:22:02 1999 (12 days left...!) http://mu.clarityconnect.net <= 100% Java free. __o Greener's Law: _`\<,_ Never argue with a man who buys ink by the barrel. (_)/ (_) From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 19 12:23:21 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA05378; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:04:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id MAA05370 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:04:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from izzy6.izzy.net (izzy6.izzy.net [206.84.176.178]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA13518 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 02:49:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by izzy6.izzy.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id FAA21098 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 05:58:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: izzy6.izzy.net: UUatbbs set sender to dbsmith@atbbs.com using -f >Received: by atbbs.com (0.99.970109) id AA05249; 18 Dec 99 05:52:56 -0500 From: dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith) Date: 17 Dec 99 20:43:32 -0500 Subject: Looking for a new list server Message-ID: <3c8_9912180552@atbbs.com> Organization: American Tune BBS, Ypsilanti Twp MI To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, Andrew. I noticed you saying: APT> workstation via FTP 2 weeks ago. I am unfortunately a windows child APT> (and not liking it anymore). APT> So either I move to another ASP or I become competent with Linux APT> quickly. Anybody want to recommend a book or three? How big is your list? I host several small lists off my BBS, under DOS, using UUCP. Not real speedy, but it plugs along, and it's well within my skill level. Theoretically capable of handling larger lists. (Would be fun to try...) Minimal functionality vs. minimal complexity. I tinkered with Linux a while back, but couldn't have the BBS down long enough to make the transition. So I Feel Your Pain. If you wish, we could try moving your list to my system, at least temporarily. If you're looking for blinding speed, though . . . hope you're a fast learner! -- >> Sysop, American Tune BBS | DISCLAIMER: Hey, I -own- the place! >> Anyway, my views are sometimes not even my own, much less anyone else's. From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 19 12:38:56 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA05614; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:17:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA05607 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id MAA16918; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:26:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:26:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912192026.MAA16918@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: <199912192023.OAA10101@mu.clarityconnect.net> (message from Bill Huston on Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:22:45 -0600 (EST)) Subject: Hosting at home Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Bill Huston Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:22:45 -0600 (EST) I pay: Dedicated phone line: $25/mo ISP charges: $20/mo Static IP/DNS: $20/yr. So, I pay about $50/mo, and I am connected 24x7. But of course this doesn't include the cost of the computer. Mine is a 486/66 w/128MB RAM (which you can pick up for about $100 used if you shop around), running Slackware Linux, which you can d/l free. This config with a 33k dialup is more that sufficient to run Majordomo, a web server, Mhonarc, etc. Since we're on the topic...anyone here running mailing lists off of a Mac? I have a book telling me how but I need to do the web server and etc as cheaply as possible. My second machine (server) is a Quadra 700. My primary machine is a PPC. I have DSL with a static IP and soon the Quadra will be networked to it. My own lists I'll probably keep at best.com but I have some clients who want some small lists for their patients/customers/visitors. Assuming I'm providing DNS, being able to have the list name use their domain name is a plus. Thanks, Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com http://www.consultclarity.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 19 12:53:59 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA05651; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from tor-srs1.netcom.ca (tor-srs1.netcom.ca [207.93.1.148]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA05644 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:22:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from sharon-p133 (ott-on4-74.netcom.ca [216.123.118.202]) by tor-srs1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23031 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:30:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199912192030.PAA23031@tor-srs1.netcom.ca> X-Sender: sharon@pop.listhost.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:19:41 -0500 To: From: Sharon Tucci Subject: Re: Another way to escape the Topica/Egroups/Lyris playpen... In-Reply-To: References: <199912190900.BAA27026@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:39 AM 12/19/1999 -0500, Tom Neff wrote: >Keep in mind that instead of groveling to Topica or any of those services, >you can have your own dedicated server for about $100/mo these days, Maybe I shouldn't say this, but this was how I ended up in the list hosting business myself. It was getting so expensive for my list hosting fees, it made sense to put my own server online. (The idea of hosting other people's lists came after.) That being said, a few words (of wisdom?) to those considering this idea: 1. Many web site hosting companies include majordomo lists as part of their web hosting packages. (Although they generally put caps on the number of subscribers you can have, many do not include message count. So this generally works best for discussion lists) 2. Maintenance has to be done to the server and you also should have an excellent knowledge of the OS being used. So, if you have more time than money, a dedicated server or a coop server may be an option to consider. 3. Make sure you remember about backups. When I was using list hosting services, this was the major problem I ran into time and again. Something would happen and my subscriber list would get zeroed. Then I'd find out that the last backup done was 2-5 weeks previously. Not good if your subscriber base is growing quickly! 4. Connectivity is another issue. When I was investigating somewhere to colocate a server with, this was something at the top of my list. At the time I put our first server online, over my assorted lists, I was averaging 30-40 new subscribers an hour. So every hour of downtime meant that many lost subscribers. Yes, I know many of the budget colocation companies claim 99% or higher connectivity. But is that really the case? If any of you do decide to put your own server online, before going forward, use one of the monitoring services (there are a number of free ones) to see what percentage of time their own site and/or one of their client's sites are online. 5. Bandwidth charges are another issue. Most colocation companies include anywhere from 10-200 GB a month. Over that amount and you pay for additional bandwidth you use. Sometimes you have to pay in lot amounts (i.e. 25 GB, 50 GB, 100 GB etc) whether you use it all or not and with other companies, you pay based on the actual bandwidth used. Many of the budget colocation companies have small bandwidth allocations which is fine for low traffic web sites or list server usage and then you get nailed on bandwidth charges. So, consider how much bandwidth your list uses on a monthly basis and whether that falls into the minimum category. Tom mentioned Skynetweb. After looking at their web site, I found that for colocated servers, you get included 20 GBs of data transfer a month. Additional is in 20 GB increments for $150/month. Their $99 monthly dedicated server option includes only 5 GBs. WOW. Perfect example for this. In the past 2 days, I've given quotes to 3 people for list hosting that ALL had 100 GB+ per month requirements. Do the math if they wanted to put their own server online. 5. SPAM & Security issue. For those of you who have never experienced running your own server who decide to put one online, it will open up a whole new assortment of things you'll need to deal with. From learning about mail relays and how to make sure they are not open, to making sure your server is secure, to making sure list messages are getting delivered, etc. Behind the scenes there is a lot going on with any list hosting service. Anyhow, just my two cents. --------------------------------------------------------- Sharon Tucci sharon@slingshotmedia.com http://www.ListHost.net Sling Shot Media, LLC 1-613-933-5133 E-Mail List Hosting and Marketing SpeciaLists From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 19 13:08:40 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA06199; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:04:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (i180.value.net [206.14.136.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA06192 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:04:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA47859; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:12:56 -0800 (PST) To: bhuston@eden.com cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Another way to escape the Topica/Egroups/Lyris playpen... In-reply-to: Your message of Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:22:45 -0600. <199912192023.OAA10101@mu.clarityconnect.net> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:12:56 -0800 Message-ID: <47857.945637976@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199912192023.OAA10101@mu.clarityconnect.net>, you wrote: >So, I pay about $50/mo, and I am connected 24x7. But of course this >doesn't include the cost of the computer. Mine is a 486/66 w/128MB RAM >(which you can pick up for about $100 used if you shop around)... Sorry for the shameless plug, but I can't resist... If you get over to ebay within the next 59 minutes or so, you can pick put a complete 486/133 system (sans monitor and networking card) for probably just a little more than $127. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=219158856 I also have a (can you believe it?) BLACK & WHITE (greyscale actually) SVGA monitor for sale, and I can't even get any takers at $20. Used equipment is dirt cheap these days because the darn hardware vendors keep pushing down the prices of the new stuff... darn them! :-) From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 19 13:39:00 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA06509; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:32:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA06502 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:32:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA134484 ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:43:44 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199912192026.MAA16918@shell7.ba.best.com> References: <199912192026.MAA16918@shell7.ba.best.com> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:40:50 -0800 To: cnorman@best.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Hosting at home Cc: cnorman@best.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:26 PM -0800 12/19/99, Cyndi Norman wrote: > Since we're on the topic...anyone here running mailing lists off of a Mac? I do, both MacOS and apple-based unix machines. > I have a book telling me how but I need to do the web server and etc as > cheaply as possible. My second machine (server) is a Quadra 700. My > primary machine is a PPC. I have DSL with a static IP and soon the Quadra > will be networked to it. The cheap answer would be some kind of Linux solution with Apache. I don't know what's available on Linux for 68K, however. On MacOS itself, for web, there's WebStar, for Mail lists there are any number of solutions. The commercial one (and it's very good) is LetterRip pro. For a freeware/shareware solution, look at Macjordomo. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Pokemon is a game where children go into the woods and capture furry little creatures and then bring them home and teach them to pit fight. From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 19 14:09:40 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA06844; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:05:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from bigtime.blank.org (bigtime.blank.org [139.167.64.222]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id OAA06835 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:05:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 22218 invoked by uid 500); 19 Dec 1999 22:14:13 -0000 Message-ID: <19991219171412.U459@blank.org> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:14:12 -0500 From: "Nathan J. Mehl" To: cnorman@best.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Hosting at home References: <199912192023.OAA10101@mu.clarityconnect.net> <199912192026.MAA16918@shell7.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199912192026.MAA16918@shell7.ba.best.com>; from Cyndi Norman on Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 12:26:36PM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of Cyndi Norman (cnorman@best.com): > > Since we're on the topic...anyone here running mailing lists off of a Mac? > I have a book telling me how but I need to do the web server and etc as > cheaply as possible. My second machine (server) is a Quadra 700. My > primary machine is a PPC. I have DSL with a static IP and soon the Quadra > will be networked to it. The Q700 will run both OpenBSD and NetBSD, and possibly Linux/M68k as well, although I don't know what kind of state the last one is in. Add perl and Majordomo, and away you go... I strongly recommen against trying to run a MLM on MacOS software -- the ones I've seen in operation (Stalker, MacJordomo, EIMS) have been universally horrible. -n ------------------------------------------------------------ Being a Unix system administrator is like being a tech in a biological warfare laboratory, except that none of the substances are labeled consistently, any of the compounds are just as likely to kill you by themselves as they are when mixed with one another, and it is never clear what distinction is made between a catastrophic failure in the lab and a successful test in the field. (--M. Tiemann) ------------------------------------------------ From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 19 14:39:43 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA07157; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:31:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ikkoku.maison-otaku.net (ikkoku.maison-otaku.net [207.195.149.217]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA07150 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:31:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from godai.maison-otaku.net (godai.maison-otaku.net [216.122.4.241]) by ikkoku.maison-otaku.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A845AF8A5; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (loki@localhost) by godai.maison-otaku.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA23972; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:40:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: godai.maison-otaku.net: loki owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:40:32 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Blackman To: Cyndi Norman Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Hosting at home In-Reply-To: <199912192026.MAA16918@shell7.ba.best.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 19 Dec 1999, Cyndi Norman wrote: > Since we're on the topic...anyone here running mailing lists off of a Mac? > I have a book telling me how but I need to do the web server and etc as > cheaply as possible. My second machine (server) is a Quadra 700. My > primary machine is a PPC. I have DSL with a static IP and soon the Quadra > will be networked to it. Check into ListSTAR (not to be confused with Listar - I know they're a little close in name, but I didn't know of ListSTAR when I named Listar). It's commercial, or so I am given to understand, but is also apparently The Mailing List Manager Of Choice for Macintosh users. It's from StarNine Systems, I think - probably on http://www.starnine.com/ somewhere. Hope that helps. -- Jeremy Blackman - loki@maison-otaku.net / loki@listar.org / jeremy@lith.com Lithtech Team, Monolith Productions -- http://www.lith.com Listar Developer -- http://www.listar.org From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 19 15:09:37 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA07504; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:01:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from bigtime.blank.org (bigtime.blank.org [139.167.64.222]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id PAA07497 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 22655 invoked by uid 500); 19 Dec 1999 23:10:28 -0000 Message-ID: <19991219181028.W459@blank.org> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 18:10:28 -0500 From: "Nathan J. Mehl" To: Chuq Von Rospach , cnorman@best.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Hosting at home References: <199912192026.MAA16918@shell7.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Chuq Von Rospach on Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 01:40:50PM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of Chuq Von Rospach (chuqui@plaidworks.com): > > The cheap answer would be some kind of Linux solution with Apache. I > don't know what's available on Linux for 68K, however. It's there, but not really fully functional yet. They're fighting an uphill battle against some of Apple's worst years of undocumented hardware. More info can be found at http://mac.linux-m68k.org/. My gut instinct is that OpenBSD or NetBSD would be a better choice for the hardware. > For a freeware/shareware solution, look at Macjordomo. Ack, no, unless you like randomly dropped messages and 4-12 hour turnaround times... -n ------------------------------------------------------------ "Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call Oracle." (--cenobite@satanic.org after Tool) ------------------------------------------------ From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 19 15:39:36 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA07689; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:32:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.udena.ch (www.udena.ch [193.246.253.230]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA07682 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.230.197.133] (194.230.195.65) by mail.udena.ch with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 3.0b2); Mon, 20 Dec 1999 00:41:31 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: efrei@mail.udena.ch Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199912192026.MAA16918@shell7.ba.best.com> References: <199912192026.MAA16918@shell7.ba.best.com> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 00:21:03 +0100 To: cnorman@best.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Eveline Frei Subject: Re: Hosting at home Cc: cnorman@best.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello Cyndi At 12:26 Uhr -0800 1999.12.19, Cyndi Norman wrote: > From: Bill Huston > Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:22:45 -0600 (EST) > > I pay: > > Dedicated phone line: $25/mo > ISP charges: $20/mo > Static IP/DNS: $20/yr. > > So, I pay about $50/mo, and I am connected 24x7. But of course this > doesn't include the cost of the computer. Mine is a 486/66 w/128MB RAM > (which you can pick up for about $100 used if you shop around), running > Slackware Linux, which you can d/l free. This config with a 33k dialup > is more that sufficient to run Majordomo, a web server, Mhonarc, etc. > >Since we're on the topic...anyone here running mailing lists off of a Mac? >I have a book telling me how but I need to do the web server and etc as >cheaply as possible. My second machine (server) is a Quadra 700. My >primary machine is a PPC. I have DSL with a static IP and soon the Quadra >will be networked to it. > >My own lists I'll probably keep at best.com but I have some clients who >want some small lists for their patients/customers/visitors. Assuming I'm >providing DNS, being able to have the list name use their domain name is a >plus. Yes, I am. Webserver, Mail, scripting, FTP, etc. on a 7200, Filemaker, Liststar, FTP on a 6100. If Lists is all what you want to run on the Quadra then it should do fine. My lists (of which there are 10-15 at a total of around 2000+ msgs sent a day) run perfectly on the 6100 (OS 8.1)...a bit slow because Filemaker is running there as well, but acceptable. If you have any questions just ask. How is it going at the HWG? cheers eve -------------------------------------------------------------- Webpublishing, design & DB www: http://www.udena.ch/ email: mailto:efrei@udena.ch Udena Internet, Zuercherstr. 35, CH-8852 Altendorf Tel: +41(55)442 78 37, Fax: +41(55)442 78 38 -------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 19 16:09:36 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA07985; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:01:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA07978 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:01:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA47688 ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:08:43 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:03:38 -0800 To: Jeremy Blackman , Cyndi Norman From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Hosting at home Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:40 PM -0800 12/19/99, Jeremy Blackman wrote: > Check into ListSTAR No, don't. Even though they finally released version 2.0, I can't recommend that product to anyone (when StarNine promised me 2.0 and I actually was testing the first 2.0 beta, it was on a Mac IIfx....). For commercial products, look at fog city's LetterRip Pro. Very nice for the small/workgroup environment. I used to spend way too much of my time fixing other people's ListStar servers until I simply told everyone that I wouldn't do it any more. I never get asked to fix LetterRip servers, because they don't seem to break. > apparently The Mailing List Manager Of Choice for Macintosh users. It's > from StarNine Systems, I think - probably on http://www.starnine.com/ > somewhere. LetterRip Pro is the choice for commercial software. ListStar's basically been orphaned for years. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Pokemon is a game where children go into the woods and capture furry little creatures and then bring them home and teach them to pit fight. From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 19 16:24:39 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA08105; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:18:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA08098 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:18:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA160396 ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:21:59 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19991219181028.W459@blank.org> References: <199912192026.MAA16918@shell7.ba.best.com> <19991219181028.W459@blank.org> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:19:45 -0800 To: "Nathan J. Mehl" , Chuq Von Rospach , cnorman@best.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Hosting at home Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:10 PM -0500 12/19/99, Nathan J. Mehl wrote: >> The cheap answer would be some kind of Linux solution with Apache. I >> don't know what's available on Linux for 68K, however. > > It's there, but not really fully functional yet. They're fighting an > uphill battle against some of Apple's worst years of undocumented > hardware. IMHO, PPC gear is now cheap enough I'd just buy a used box and go with LinuxPPC. Trying to keep 68K stuff going is like trying to keep your 8088 box alive. you can -- but why? >> For a freeware/shareware solution, look at Macjordomo. > > Ack, no, unless you like randomly dropped messages and 4-12 hour > turnaround times... I know a number of folks who are really happy with it. Not big lists, but it generally gets good reviews. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Pokemon is a game where children go into the woods and capture furry little creatures and then bring them home and teach them to pit fight. From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 19 16:39:52 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA08119; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:20:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from bigtime.blank.org (bigtime.blank.org [139.167.64.222]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id QAA08109 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23206 invoked by uid 500); 20 Dec 1999 00:28:51 -0000 Message-ID: <19991219192851.X459@blank.org> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 19:28:51 -0500 From: "Nathan J. Mehl" To: Chuq Von Rospach , cnorman@best.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Hosting at home References: <199912192026.MAA16918@shell7.ba.best.com> <19991219181028.W459@blank.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Chuq Von Rospach on Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 04:19:45PM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of Chuq Von Rospach (chuqui@plaidworks.com): > > IMHO, PPC gear is now cheap enough I'd just buy a used box and go > with LinuxPPC. Trying to keep 68K stuff going is like trying to keep > your 8088 box alive. you can -- but why? Well, it's a bit more comparable to keeping your 386 alive, but in general I'd agree -- if you're not one of those people like me who gets a weird thrill from keeping obselete hardware in production, a used PowerMac 7500 would be a much easier solution. :) > >> For a freeware/shareware solution, look at Macjordomo. > > Ack, no, unless you like randomly dropped messages and 4-12 hour > > turnaround times... > > I know a number of folks who are really happy with it. Not big lists, > but it generally gets good reviews. Well, here we have two opposed datapoints. Perhaps I was merely unlucky, perhaps Chuq was lucky. You makes your choice and takes your chances. :) -n ----------------------------------------------------------- "`G.I. Jane' is a demeaning, violent, bloody workout video. Some brief nudity, bad language and a false sense of human resilience. Rated R." (--CNN) ----------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 21 04:35:50 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id EAA02877; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 04:21:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from office.knowledge.com (office.knowledge.com [195.40.167.196]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA02870 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 04:21:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from peter by office.knowledge.com with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 120OR7-000410-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:30:41 +0000 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:30:41 +0000 From: Peter Galbavy To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: list server software references Message-ID: <19991221123041.A22341@office.knowledge.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Not seen an FAQ go passed while lurking, so I thought I would ask. Is there an up-to-date web site or FAQ with references to all the generally useful/available list server packages ? In my case, we use majordomo (1.94.4) but I want to go towards something with better management and security *but* also either with virtual domain support or simple enough (like mj1) to hack. mj2 is too rigid, large and complicated (sorry) for our needs. Any help would be appreciated. Regards, -- Peter Galbavy Knowledge Matters Ltd http://www.knowledge.com/ From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 21 11:52:05 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA08560; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mushi.colo.neosoft.com (mushi.colo.neosoft.com [206.109.6.82]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA08553 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:40:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 21279 invoked from network); 21 Dec 1999 19:49:18 -0000 Received: from citadel.in.taronga.com (10.0.0.43) by mushi.in.taronga.com with SMTP; 21 Dec 1999 19:49:18 -0000 Received: by citadel.in.taronga.com (Postfix, from userid 101) id 4DA05322FA; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:49:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: list server software references To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:49:18 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19991221194918.4DA05322FA@citadel.in.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Is there an up-to-date web site or FAQ with references to all the > generally useful/available list server packages ? In my case, we use http://List-Business.com/list-software/ From list-managers-owner Wed Dec 22 18:39:55 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA29365; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:10:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA29355 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:10:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from ifolk.iserver.net (ifolk.iserver.net [192.41.44.203]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA11132 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 22:21:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from patroon ([160.43.47.9]) by ifolk.iserver.net (8.8.5) id BAA24570; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 01:30:29 -0500 (EST) From: "Tom Neff" To: Subject: RE: Another way to escape the Topica/Egroups/Lyris playpen... Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 01:30:36 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-Reply-To: <199912192023.OAA10101@mu.clarityconnect.net> Importance: Normal Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bill Huston [mailto:bhuston@mu.clarityconnect.net] wrote: > There is a cheaper solution! > [description of 33k dialup home Linux PC omitted] I'm sorry to see the subject changed so quickly from my suggestion (leasing an offsite dedicated or virtual server) to that of a dialup home PC. Dialup has a number of problems that probably place it beyond the acceptable hassle-level for most list manager members here, although some of us do manage to carry it off. Leasing a server, on the other hand, is as easy as pie, and if you know how to configure Majordomo you can be in business within a day. You just have to get enough lists together to justify the cost. From list-managers-owner Wed Dec 22 18:54:57 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA29512; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA29502 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:12:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from one.eListX.com (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA05230 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:44:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from one.elistx.com by one.eListX.com id aa06492; 21 Dec 99 11:53 EST Reply-To: James M Galvin From: James M Galvin To: Sharon Tucci cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Another way to escape the Topica/Egroups/Lyris playpen... In-reply-to: Sharon Tucci's message of Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:19:41 EST. <199912192030.PAA23031@tor-srs1.netcom.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----- =_aaaaaaaaaa0" Content-ID: <6488.945795185.0@one.elistx.com> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:53:05 -0500 Message-ID: <9912211153.aa06492@one.eListX.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <6488.945795185.1@one.elistx.com> 4. Connectivity is another issue. Yes, I know many of the budget colocation companies claim 99% or higher connectivity. But is that really the case? If any of you do decide to put your own server online, before going forward, use one of the monitoring services (there are a number of free ones) to see what percentage of time their own site and/or one of their client's sites are online. The trick is to look at the fine print. There are two issues: how big is 99% and what is connected? 1. Have you ever done the math on 99% connected? Averaged over a year that's almost 88 hours of downtime, which is either 3.5 days of one very bad experience or just over 7 hours of downtime per month. Pretty hard not to meet that goal. 2. Connected is often defined in subtle ways. It rarely guarantees that you at your site will be able to connect to the server, only that the server is available from at least one other place outside its own network. Honestly, it's pretty much impossible to improve on this. No service provider is going to explicitly warrant the reliability of networks outside of his or her local domain. I would contend that connectivity is only an issue insofar as you should care who your upstream network provider is, which of course you should for an email server. You have to figure you'll get subscribers from a pretty broad geographic area, if not the world. You want to be pretty close to the backbone to ensure the highest probability of being able to connect to everything. What I'm suggesting is that if connectivity is really important, you want to make sure your host is on a network that is not more than "one network hop" from a "national backbone". There aren't that many national backbones and you should know them by name. Get with a service provider that's connected to the backbone. You're connectivity will be as good as it's going to be, assuming your service provider is competent enough to keep his or her network online. Jim ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <6488.945795185.2@one.elistx.com> Content-Description: Contact Information -- James M. Galvin, Ph.D. Principal eList eXpress LLC +1 410.549.4619 607 Trixsam Road +1 561.619.2450 FAX Sykesville, MD 21784 http://www.elistx.com A premiere source for all your elist management services. To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty. To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0-- From list-managers-owner Wed Dec 22 19:09:55 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA29384; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:11:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA29374 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:11:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ifolk.iserver.net (ifolk.iserver.net [192.41.44.203]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA18091 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:51:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from patroon ([160.43.47.9]) by ifolk.iserver.net (8.8.5) id KAA03699; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:00:42 -0500 (EST) From: "Tom Neff" To: Subject: Re: your own dedicated/virtual server Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:00:43 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-Reply-To: <199912200900.BAA12742@honor.greatcircle.com> Importance: Normal Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sharon Tucci wrote: > 1. Many web site hosting companies include majordomo lists as > part of their web hosting packages. (Although they generally put > caps on the number of subscribers you can have, many do not > include message count. So this generally works best for discussion lists) My experience (and I've been doing a lot of hunting and comparing in the last year and a half, for various reasons) is that just about anybody who charges for Majordomo lists -- or gives you a limited amount of Majordomo usage as part of a flat-rate hosting combo -- will eventually charge you too much, or limit you too severely. I don't think that's their intention to begin with, but the model they seem to have in mind is SNOOZE-L with a few messages per week sent to a couple of dozen recipients. As soon as you hit them with a REAL list by our standards -- 1,000-10,000 members and a dozen or more messages per day -- they think Whoa, this is EXTREME, better surcharge it. That's why I'm focusing more on virtual or dedicated servers that simply let you install your OWN software - whatever that is - and just charge you for disk space (in the case of virtual) and bandwidth (both). I am not saying this solution is for everybody, but I am saying that when you reach the point that free service hosting begins to chafe, you should consider the alternative. > 2. Maintenance has to be done to the server and you also should > have an excellent knowledge of the OS being used. So, if you have > more time than money, a dedicated server or a coop server may be > an option to consider. Most of the server companies I've seen will give you a Linux or FreeBSD machine (real or virtual) that has the scripts and stuff set up to make it ALMOST self-maintaining. You don't really need to be an OS hound to survive, although in a co-op situation with multiple lists hosted, probably somebody should be a bit of a geek. I'm sure any number of wizards would take on that minimal maintenance in exchange for free hosting of THEIR list, of course, with the other eight or ten list managers paying the freight. > 3. Make sure you remember about backups. When I was using list > hosting services, this was the major problem I ran into time and > again. Something would happen and my subscriber list would get > zeroed. Then I'd find out that the last backup done was 2-5 weeks > previously. Not good if your subscriber base is growing quickly! Agreed! But this can happen anywhere, whether it's your server or someone else's. The only difference is whether you get to feel like an idiot YOURSELF or spend a lot of energy yelling at someone else for being the idiot. :) After a lot of experimentation I have settled on a daily WHO of all my lists, requested from (and mailed back to) a separate offsite machine. The advantage to this is that it works no matter where the lists themselves are hosted (as long as WHO is supported in some fashion) - I never have to hunt for disks or tapes or try to remember which format something is in. I do the same thing with CONFIGs. A special Subject string and Procmail lets me store this in its own IMAP folder for when I need to consult it. > 4. Connectivity is another issue. When I was investigating > somewhere to colocate a server with, this was something at the > top of my list. At the time I put our first server online, over > my assorted lists, I was averaging 30-40 new subscribers an hour. > So every hour of downtime meant that many lost subscribers. Yes, > I know many of the budget colocation companies claim 99% or > higher connectivity. But is that really the case? If any of you > do decide to put your own server online, before going forward, > use one of the monitoring services (there are a number of free > ones) to see what percentage of time their own site and/or one of > their client's sites are online. This is a great idea! But there are a couple of points to be added. * While your own server might experience occasional network outages, so do the "big boys" - the difference is that they generally don't bother to tell you about it. :) And for every minute of pingable TCP/IP uptime they add because of redundant ISPs etc, you can generally subtract at least a minute of sheer server overload as too many people bombard a free service. When a potential subscriber can't visit to join, it scarcely matters whether it was because of a bad router or a swamped host process. The joy of having your own server is knowing that, as long as the packets are flowing, you have the horsepower to do your work. * If new subscribers are being added via email, then you can be down for 10 minutes, or even an hour, and not really lose anybody, because their SMTP server will retry. (Instead of getting 30-40 subscribers per hour you will get zero this hour, then 60-80 the next hour, to catch up...) The only time a net outage really hurts is when you were using a Web based interface for everything (and the Web host in question is down). > 5. Bandwidth charges are another issue... > WOW. Perfect example for this. In the past 2 days, I've given > quotes to 3 people for list hosting that ALL had 100 GB+ per > month requirements. Do the math if they wanted to put their own > server online. Right, but the question is whether these examples ought to drive the economic decision for the average list manager or group of managers. In order to push 100GB/month you need to be sending 3MB per day to 1,000 members, which is characteristic of big binaries; or 300K per day to 10,000 members, which means a runaway discussion zoo like POSTCARD2; or 30K/day to 100,000 members, i.e., a corporate announcement list. All of these SHOULD pay their freight charges, as far as I am concerned. (In the big-binaries case, they should probably not even be a mailing list, except to send out URLs of the FTP or Web archives where the binaries are stored.) A more typical profile for an active discussion list would be 1,000 users at 30K/day/user. That's 1GB per month, or $5/mo per list as you keep adding them. > 5. SPAM & Security issue. For those of you who have never > experienced running your own server who decide to put one online, > it will open up a whole new assortment of things you'll need to > deal with... The biggest spam issue is making sure that none of your _partners_ misbehaves and starts using your mailer for spamming. An external hosting service takes care of this worry for you - that's the good news; the bad news is that an external hosting service constantly HAS to take care of this worry, because spammers are always joining and trying to use them, so that they often hover on the edge of Net blacklisting unless they take pains to stay lovey-dovey with the cabal, and there's nothing you can do about it except watch the carnage. Your own private list co-op, on the other hand, can keep its nose clean and never worry about the wars. You do need to make sure that your mailer is set up securely, but this is done "out of the box" by most hosting services, and there are copious resources online to help you if you decide to do it yourself. > Anyhow, just my two cents. It's two cents of pure gold Sharon. :) I just want to make sure that the distinction between the issues that a truly high volume list hosting service deals with, versus what a small co-op of 5-10 managers would encounter, is made clear. The bigger you get, the more self-reliant, resource-conscious, and Net-savvy you need to be -- but also the more you can _afford_ to be. From list-managers-owner Wed Dec 22 23:37:48 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA02293; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:27:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA02286 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA92158 ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:39:35 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:36:58 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: warning -- email virus attack. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is probably limited to my site, but for the last few days, users of my mailing lists have been under attack by some party that's forging mail to (sort of, he's not very good) look like responses to messages posted to my mail lists. These 'responses' have the messagemates virus attached. So far, no damage has occured, but work continues on tracking the idiot down and having him kneecapped. The site where the mail is pretty clearly originating doesn't have either a postmaster or an abuse address (gee, how, um, interesting), but fortunately, their ISP does. I'm posting this just in case it's not just my site. I think I have a dweeb playing games to get even for something, but in case I've misread the situation, I wanted to heads-up folks to be aware of the problem. these aren't actually being posted to my site (and my site is patched to not only not allow attachments, but to specifically nuke this virus, just in case). If you have users reporting strange stuff on your lists, be wary, in case this is part of a larger attack. chuq (not amused) -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Pokemon is a game where children go into the woods and capture furry little creatures and then bring them home and teach them to pit fight. From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 23 02:26:02 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id CAA05112; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 02:15:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA05103 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 02:15:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA78967 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 05:24:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 05:22:17 -0500 From: Tim Pierce To: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. Message-ID: <19991223052217.T67042@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7us In-Reply-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 11:36:58PM -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > This is probably limited to my site, but for the last few days, users > of my mailing lists have been under attack by some party that's > forging mail to (sort of, he's not very good) look like responses to > messages posted to my mail lists. These 'responses' have the > messagemates virus attached. If you mean W32.NewApt.Worm, we're getting a lot of it. I suspect that the worm is forging itself automatically. From my POV, this is what appears to be happening: If I send mail to an infected user with these headers: From: A To: B Subject: C the infected user's computer will send the worm to me with these headers: From: B To: A Subject: C Complete hypothesis, but it's the only explanation I have that's consistent with all observed cases. For example, I recently posted a message to listowners-announce@rootsweb.com. I have since received several replies containing the NewApt worm, each of them claiming to be "From: listowners-announce@rootsweb.com" and addressed to me. If you look at the headers of the message, I think you'll also find that the luser's PC claims to be your own mail server in its HELO message. I'm getting a lot of this: Received: from mail.rootsweb.com (ppp-42.example.com [192.168.124.2]) by mail.rootsweb.com .... It happens with such regularity, from so many different hosts, that I am 99% sure that the individuals are not transmitting the worm knowingly or maliciously. -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb.com lead system admonsterator and Chief Hacking Officer From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 23 08:26:10 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA10201; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:18:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from boofura.swcp.com (boofura.swcp.com [198.59.115.28]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA10194 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:18:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by boofura.swcp.com (8.8.5/8.8.0) id JAA18958 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:27:51 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:27:50 -0700 From: Lazlo Nibble To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. Message-ID: <19991223092750.A18933@swcp.com> Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Chuq Von Rospach on Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 11:36:58PM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 11:36:58PM -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I'm posting this just in case it's not just my site. It's not. Someone hit subscribers to one of my lists late last week with the exact same M.O. -- it was just a one-off as far as I know, though. If you don't mind, Chuq, please keep us posted about what comes of this. -- Lazlo Nibble - lazlo@studio-nibble.com - http://www.studio-nibble.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 24/7 music from the Nibble vaults! - http://www.studio-nibble.com/audio -- From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 23 09:11:12 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA10450; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [205.147.43.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA10443 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:53:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt (eckert@netcom18.netcom.com [199.183.9.118]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA20458; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:01:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991223083742.00a04eb0@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:37:42 -0800 To: "Tom Neff" From: SRE Subject: Re: your own dedicated/virtual server Cc: In-Reply-To: References: <199912200900.BAA12742@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:00 AM 12/20/99 -0500, Tom Neff wrote: >It's two cents of pure gold Sharon. :) I just want to make sure that the >distinction between the issues that a truly high volume list hosting service >deals with, versus what a small co-op of 5-10 managers would encounter Great post! Thanks. I chose to host Climber.Org at Jetcafe, where I paid half the cost of upgrading their mail server in exchange for an unlimited number of email lists. We've now got 1800 unique addresses on a couple dozen email lists, plus a couple hundred MB of web files, and it costs me $20/month. Contact dave@jetcafe.org if you're interested in a non-profit net access coop that's already up and running. SRE mailto:eckert@climber.org | http://www.climber.org/eckert/ Info on peak climbing email lists mailto:info@climber.org "Hold fast to dreams for if dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly." -- Langston Hughes From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 23 09:41:10 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA10714; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:23:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA10704 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:23:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21378 ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:35:33 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19991223092750.A18933@swcp.com> References: <19991223092750.A18933@swcp.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:32:49 -0800 To: Lazlo Nibble , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:27 AM -0700 12/23/99, Lazlo Nibble wrote: > It's not. Someone hit subscribers to one of my lists late last week with the > exact same M.O. -- it was just a one-off as far as I know, though. > > If you don't mind, Chuq, please keep us posted about what comes of this. Hi, Lazlo. This is what I've come up with so far. This is the update I posted to my mailing lists this morning: ---- I have an update on this e-mail virus attack. There is good news, and there is bad news. The good news: based on some discussions with other list admins, it seems pretty clear that this is not, in fact, an attack on plaidworks or the mailing lists. Unfortunately, the bad news is that we have a new virus on the internet that is propogating rapidly. For more information, see for the official score on this beast. But basically, once it infects a system (it infects windows boxes), when an infected user receives e-mail, the virus mails itself back out, and attempts to infect the sender of the message. If you run windows, you are susceptible to this worm, and you may, in fact, be infected and passing the infection on to other list members and anyone else sending you e-mail. It is imperative (to ALL users) that if you aren't running anti-virus software, on any platform, that you get it installed. If you're running Windows, please get your anti-virus software updated (the Symantec software update is available from the above link) and test your system. Do not assume that your anti-virus software will protect your or identify this virus without updating the virus definitions, and even more especially, DO NOT ASSUME YOU ARE SAFE. This virus is starting to propogate all over the internet, and it's less than ten days old. I've already seen reports of the virus responding on three mailing lists here on plaidworks, and that's a very bad sign. I'm guessing at this point three or four subscribers are already infected. Protect yourself. And take some time to clean up your system so you protect those you talk to. Any user of the mail lists found to be propogating this virus will be removed to protect all of our other users - if you are infected, you will propogate this virus simply by reading your e-mail. You do NOT have to post to the mailing lists to send out the infection. And you are not safe from this virus if you don't post to the lists, because this virus can vector in from ANY e-mail source or any mailing list. Be very wary of e-mail with enclosures from anyone, folks. Make sure your anti-virus software is up to date and running, and check your systems. -- At least three of my lists have users infected with them, and at least one of my lists has two users infected. God knows whether the virus is successfully propogating among my users, but I'm not hopeful. All list owners need to be very wary of this beast. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Pokemon is a game where children go into the woods and capture furry little creatures and then bring them home and teach them to pit fight. From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 23 10:41:16 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA11352; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:31:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA11345 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:31:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA81088; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:40:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:40:58 -0500 From: Tim Pierce To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. Message-ID: <19991223134058.V67042@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <19991223052217.T67042@ma-1.rootsweb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7us In-Reply-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, Dec 23, 1999 at 09:07:20AM -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > At 5:22 AM -0500 12/23/99, Tim Pierce wrote: > > > If you mean W32.NewApt.Worm, we're getting a lot of it. I suspect > > that the worm is forging itself automatically. > > A huge thanks to Tim. > > And here's the poop on this damn virus: > > > > So, I guess, the good news is that it does NOT look like an attack on > my lists. The bad news is, it seems to be something that all lists > are vulnerable to, and not something that can be dealt with on the > list site. It is chiefly an annoyance to us, since we wind up getting hit with complaints that we're sending people a virus, even though the worm never even touches our systems. Writing a form letter to explain that we're not responsible helped us minimize wasted time. -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb.com lead system admonsterator and Chief Hacking Officer From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 23 11:56:11 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA11848; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:39:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (i180.value.net [206.14.136.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA11841 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:39:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02559 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:48:41 -0800 (PST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:32:49 -0800. Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:48:41 -0800 Message-ID: <2557.945978521@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >Unfortunately, the bad news is that we have a new virus on the >internet that is propogating rapidly. > >For more information, see > for the >official score on this beast. But basically, once it infects a system >(it infects windows boxes), when an infected user receives e-mail, >the virus mails itself back out, and attempts to infect the sender of >the message. > >If you run windows, you are susceptible to this worm, and you may, in >fact, be infected and passing the infection on to other list members >and anyone else sending you e-mail. This is indeed a worm. Its timing is interesting. I was just sitting around wondering the other day how long it would be before someone cooked up something exactly like this. (Is it fair to characterize this as being, roughly speaking, the Windoze equivalent of the Morris Worm?) I have a simple question regarding this thing, and I think that it is relevant to this mailing list. I'm sure that the subject of e-mail attachments (and what to do about them) has been discussed here before. This question is just this: What can be done, and/or what should be done at the mail server level to combat these kinds of things? Is it possible and/or desirable to somehow elide or munge, at the very least, executable e-mail attachments as they pass through a mail server in order to render them less likely to cause harm? One other question: Is it fair to assume that this thing can also be spread via mailing lists? From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 23 12:11:09 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA12157; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:05:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from aurinko.taivas.com (aurinko.taivas.com [193.65.127.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA12137 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:05:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (tuupola@localhost) by aurinko.taivas.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21834 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:12:39 -0300 (GMT) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:12:39 -0300 (GMT) From: Mika Tuupola X-Sender: tuupola@aurinko.taivas.com To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Any user of the mail lists found to be propogating this virus will be > removed to protect all of our other users - if you are infected, you Of course this worm can spread through your mailinglist _only_ if you allow attachments. Strip them out and the mailinglist is safe. > have to post to the mailing lists to send out the infection. And you > are not safe from this virus if you don't post to the lists, because > this virus can vector in from ANY e-mail source or any mailing list. Quickly reading through symantec site you can read you will be infected only if you run the attached exe file. > virus is successfully propogating among my users, but I'm not > hopeful. All list owners need to be very wary of this beast. This email worm might be annoying but I'd hardly call it a beast. -- Mika Tuupola http://www.appelsiini.net/~tuupola/ From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 23 12:26:11 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA11942; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from gva.net (MAIL.GVA.NET [216.80.135.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA11935 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:45:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912231945.LAA11935@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from default [216.80.135.112] by gva.net [216.80.135.3] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP5.R) for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:52:56 -0500 From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:52:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. In-reply-to: References: <19991223092750.A18933@swcp.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-Return-Path: bernie@fantasyfarm.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 23 Dec 99, at 9:32, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I have an update on this e-mail virus attack. There is good news, and > there is bad news. > > The good news: based on some discussions with other list admins, it > seems pretty clear that this is not, in fact, an attack on plaidworks > or the mailing lists. > > Unfortunately, the bad news is that we have a new virus on the > internet that is propogating rapidly. > > For more information, see > for the > official score on this beast. But basically, once it infects a system > (it infects windows boxes), when an infected user receives e-mail, > the virus mails itself back out, and attempts to infect the sender of > the message. > > If you run windows, you are susceptible to this worm, and you may, in > fact, be infected and passing the infection on to other list members > and anyone else sending you e-mail. This isn't *exactly* true: it only infects folks using HTML email and using Netscape or IE as their mail clients... far as I know [and have seen from the waves of similar viruses recently], folks using any of the other dozen or more mail clients for windows [and/or sensible enough (or luddite enough, YMMV :o)) to stick to plain-jane text email] don't have a problem (or at the least have to work at it to infect themselves). /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 23 13:58:45 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA13324; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA13311 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:39:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from listes.cru.fr (listes.cru.fr [195.220.94.165]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA22166 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 05:13:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.cru.fr (home.cru.fr [195.220.94.79]) by listes.cru.fr (8.9.2/jtpda-5.3.2) with ESMTP id OAA15322 ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:22:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from home.cru.fr (IDENT:aumont@localhost.cru.fr [127.0.0.1]) by home.cru.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) with ESMTP id OAA15396 ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:22:43 +0100 Message-Id: <199912221322.OAA15396@home.cru.fr> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.3 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: aumont@cru.fr, Peter.Galbavy@knowledge.com, listmaster@List-Business.com, webmaster@List-Business.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V8 #230 In-reply-to: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:00:29 -0800. <199912220900.BAA17203@honor.greatcircle.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:22:43 +0100 From: Aumont - Comite Reseaux des Universites Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:49:18 -0600 (CST) >From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) >Subject: Re: list server software references > >> Is there an up-to-date web site or FAQ with references to all the >> generally useful/available list server packages ? In my case, we use > > >http://List-Business.com/list-software/ This site seems to be a "mirror" of the our original "Mailing List Software Inventory" ( http://www.cru.fr/listes/apropos/robots.html ). There are just our logo and copyright missing :( Anyway, if you are looking for the best one, don't lose time, here it is : http://listes.cru.fr/sympa :-) Serge From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 23 14:11:43 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA13477; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:45:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [205.147.43.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA13470 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:45:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt (eckert@netcom13.netcom.com [199.183.9.113]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA22668; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:55:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991223135119.0095ec90@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:51:19 -0800 To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" From: SRE Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <2557.945978521@monkeys.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:48 AM 12/23/99 -0800, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: >and/or desirable to somehow elide or munge, at the very least, executable >e-mail attachments as they pass through a mail server Most servers can bounce messages with attachments, which is what I've been doing. I'm now trying to install demime.pl from http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.html as a way to let the rest of the msg go out while stripping the attachment off. I also have a big problem with people mostly LookOut users, (or is that OutLook?) who insist they are not sending HTML format tags and thousands of nbsp's... these are the least clued in of my subscribers, and demime's ability to strip that stuff before it gets to the server command processor should be great. (If I can find all the perl modules required.) SRE mailto:eckert@climber.org | http://www.climber.org/eckert/ Info on peak climbing email lists mailto:info@climber.org Before email, five carbon copies were the maximum extension of anybody's ego. From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 23 15:24:55 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA14402; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kitten.mcs.net (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA14395 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:18:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from Mercury.mcs.net (dattier@Mercury.mcs.net [192.160.127.80]) by Kitten.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id RAA15794 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:27:56 -0600 (CST) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by Mercury.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.8.2) id RAA32869 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:27:52 -0600 (CST) From: "David W. Tamkin" Message-Id: <199912232327.RAA32869@Mercury.mcs.net> Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. In-Reply-To: from Mika Tuupola at "Dec 23, 1999 10:12:39 pm" Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:27:52 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mika Tuupola wrote, | Of course this worm can spread through your mailinglist | _only_ if you allow attachments. Strip them out and the | mailinglist is safe. I'll agree with the first sentence but not with the second. As Tim Pierce has explained, the worm mails itself out From: the To: address of a piece of email lying around, so an infected list member's system can send it out as if From: the list. Since these local mail clients repeat the From: address as the envelope sender, it will also appear to be From_ the list. Thus other members who receive it from the infected subscriber will believe that the list sent it to them. Stripping attachments will prevent that from happening in reality, but not in members' minds, so the list will still not be safe from their blame and their panic. Back in October my list's host moved to a new upstream provider, a new IP address, and a new OS. For several days the list was down as we ironed out kinks. I sent an announcement directly to list members then, all blind- carboned with a fake To: line, from one of my other accounts. Today, with that announcement's subject and with its goofy To: as From:, the account from which I sent the announcement got a copy of newapt.worm. The only clue about which member was infected and sent it was the site where it was injected. It belongs to a retail ISP, and the list has exactly one subscriber at an address on it. But there may have been others who have un- subbed or changed their addresses since I sent that announcement out; there may be others who have accounts on that ISP but don't use that address for their subscriptions to my list. The list may not be distributing the worm if you strip attachments, but infected members, particularly those in individual-message mode, will send the worm directly to other members, forging headers that make it appear to have come from the list. I'd hardly call that "safe." From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 23 15:39:50 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA14484; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:26:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (i180.value.net [206.14.136.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA14477 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:25:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03513 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:35:36 -0800 (PST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:52:38 -0500. <199912231945.LAA11935@honor.greatcircle.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:35:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3511.945992136@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199912231945.LAA11935@honor.greatcircle.com>, "Bernie Cosell" wrote: >This isn't *exactly* true: it only infects folks using HTML email and >using Netscape or IE as their mail clients... AND ones that are ALSO running some form of Windoze. (I'm sitting here with several Netscape Navigator windows open, and a Netscape Communicator window open, and I'm not the least bit worried about this worm because the OS I'm running does know an .EXE file from a pork rind.) From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 23 15:54:50 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA14516; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:30:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (i180.value.net [206.14.136.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA14509 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03573 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:40:23 -0800 (PST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:51:19 -0800. <3.0.5.32.19991223135119.0095ec90@pop.climber.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:40:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3571.945992423@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <3.0.5.32.19991223135119.0095ec90@pop.climber.org>, SRE wrote: >At 11:48 AM 12/23/99 -0800, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: >>and/or desirable to somehow elide or munge, at the very least, executable >>e-mail attachments as they pass through a mail server > >Most servers can bounce messages with attachments, which is what >I've been doing. I'm now trying to install demime.pl from > http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.html >as a way to let the rest of the msg go out while stripping >the attachment off. What I was thinking was something more along the lines of an MTA-inbuilt thingy that would strip out any and all *executable* attachments, while leaving everything else intact. Sort-of a ``mostly transparent Message Transport Agent''. I think that might be a Good Thing, for the world at large, because as far as I can see, executable attachments are almost always evil, or, at the very least, extraordinarily dangerous. From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 23 16:09:50 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA14674; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:56:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA14667 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:56:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA84441; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:06:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:06:05 -0500 From: Tim Pierce To: Mika Tuupola Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. Message-ID: <19991223190604.D67042@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7us In-Reply-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, Dec 23, 1999 at 10:12:39PM -0300, Mika Tuupola wrote: > On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > > Any user of the mail lists found to be propogating this virus will be > > removed to protect all of our other users - if you are infected, you > > Of course this worm can spread through your mailinglist > _only_ if you allow attachments. Strip them out and the > mailinglist is safe. The worm is mailed privately to each person who posts to the list, i.e. the address that shows up in the "From" header. An infected person who subscribes to the list will infect each person who posts, but the worm is never posted to the list itself. -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb.com lead system admonsterator and Chief Hacking Officer From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 23 18:52:23 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA16012; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:46:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.12.23]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id SAA16003 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11208 invoked by uid 50); 24 Dec 1999 02:56:01 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. References: <3571.945992423@monkeys.com> In-Reply-To: "Ronald F. Guilmette"'s message of "Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:40:23 -0800" From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: 23 Dec 1999 18:56:01 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) XEmacs/21.1 (Biscayne) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ronald F Guilmette writes: > What I was thinking was something more along the lines of an MTA-inbuilt > thingy that would strip out any and all *executable* attachments, while > leaving everything else intact. One of the main difficulties of taking this approach is that for viruses and the like you have to consider any Word or Excel attachment to be an executable in the presence of macro viruses. Munging anything with a specified file name ending in .exe may help, though, given that I don't think Microsoft's clients pay any real attention to the MIME content-type. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 24 07:37:20 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA24699; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 07:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kitten.mcs.net (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA24691 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 07:26:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (dattier@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id JAA97579 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:35:42 -0600 (CST) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.8.2) id JAA22976 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:35:38 -0600 (CST) From: "David W. Tamkin" Message-Id: <199912241535.JAA22976@Mars.mcs.net> Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. In-Reply-To: from Russ Allbery at "Dec 23, 1999 06:56:01 pm" Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:35:38 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ron Guilmette wrote, G> What I was thinking was something more along the lines of an MTA-inbuilt G> thingy that would strip out any and all *executable* attachments, while G> leaving everything else intact. Russ Allbery responded, A> One of the main difficulties of taking this approach is that for viruses A> and the like you have to consider any Word or Excel attachment to be an A> executable in the presence of macro viruses. A month or two ago a virus turned up (I think it was Babylon95?) that infects .hlp files. Ever since then McAfee has recommended scanning all files, not just those named with the traditional extensions for executable code. So pretty much we'd be talking about removing all attachments. From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 24 15:20:51 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA27982; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:12:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kitten.mcs.net (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA27975 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from Jupiter.mcs.net (dattier@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Kitten.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id RAA38642 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 17:22:22 -0600 (CST) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by Jupiter.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.8.2) id RAA22765 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 17:22:19 -0600 (CST) From: "David W. Tamkin" Message-Id: <199912242322.RAA22765@Jupiter.mcs.net> Subject: thank Pierce and Bernstein she's gone To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 17:22:19 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Public thanks to Tim Pierce for his analysis of how the newapt worm switches From: and To: headers around. I sent every list member an announcement, with some headers designed to make it look like a mailing list distribution to most of their filters (for those who filter at all), but the To:, From:, and Reply-To: headers and the enve- lope sender address were all suffixed with the recipient's address, VERP- style. One sent the worm back in reaction, and her own address was all over it. I deactivated her subscription and sent her a message asking her to clean her system and get back to me. (Of course, tomorrow I'll have another copy of the worm in response to that.) From list-managers-owner Sat Dec 25 16:38:25 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA11502; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 16:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from aurinko.taivas.com (aurinko.taivas.com [193.65.127.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA11495 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 16:34:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (tuupola@localhost) by aurinko.taivas.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA17747 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 02:42:09 -0300 (GMT) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 02:42:09 -0300 (GMT) From: Mika Tuupola X-Sender: tuupola@aurinko.taivas.com To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. In-Reply-To: <19991223190604.D67042@ma-1.rootsweb.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Tim Pierce wrote: > The worm is mailed privately to each person who posts to the list, Ah true. Should have read the description a bit more carefully. Still it is of course IMO a good idea to strip attachments if they are not needed. -- Mika Tuupola http://www.appelsiini.net/~tuupola/ From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 27 16:52:05 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA07935; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:46:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA07920 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:46:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA49182 ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:59:22 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199912241535.JAA22976@Mars.mcs.net> References: <199912241535.JAA22976@Mars.mcs.net> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:45:20 -0800 To: "David W. Tamkin" From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > A month or two ago a virus turned up (I think it was Babylon95?) that infects > .hlp files. Ever since then McAfee has recommended scanning all files, not > just those named with the traditional extensions for executable code. and don't forget those wonderful macro worms in word and excel files.... -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Pokemon is a game where children go into the woods and capture furry little creatures and then bring them home and teach them to pit fight. From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 27 17:07:10 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA07936; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:46:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA07928 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA49170 ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:59:18 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199912231945.LAA11935@honor.greatcircle.com> References: <19991223092750.A18933@swcp.com> <199912231945.LAA11935@honor.greatcircle.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:43:29 -0800 To: "Bernie Cosell" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:52 PM -0500 12/23/99, Bernie Cosell wrote: > This isn't *exactly* true: it only infects folks using HTML email and > using Netscape or IE as their mail clients... Before you go resting easily at night, our user surveys indicate that this population is easily 60% (and probably much higher) of the on-line e-mail population. It may not affect you, or the people you know, but it definitely will affect most people on the net. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Pokemon is a game where children go into the woods and capture furry little creatures and then bring them home and teach them to pit fight. From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 27 17:22:06 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA07945; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:47:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA07938 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:46:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA49176 ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:59:21 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991223135119.0095ec90@pop.climber.org> References: <3.0.5.32.19991223135119.0095ec90@pop.climber.org> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:44:38 -0800 To: SRE , "Ronald F. Guilmette" From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:51 PM -0800 12/23/99, SRE wrote: > I also have a big problem with people mostly LookOut users, > (or is that OutLook?) who insist they are not sending HTML > format tags and thousands of nbsp's... these are the least > clued in of my subscribers, and demime's ability to strip > that stuff before it gets to the server command processor > should be great. (If I can find all the perl modules required.) When that happens to me, I simply decode the message they sent me telling me they arne't sending into HTML into it's HTML form, and then return it to them as text. (grin). I rarely get an argument after that. Although every once in a while, someone tries to tell me it must be my system doing this to their messages.... -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Pokemon is a game where children go into the woods and capture furry little creatures and then bring them home and teach them to pit fight. From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 27 17:52:06 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA08420; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 17:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA08413 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 17:37:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com (root@world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by europe.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA19273 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 20:47:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from danrarch@localhost) by world.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA27516 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 20:45:43 -0500 (EST) From: "Dancers' Archive Services" Message-Id: <199912280145.UAA27516@world.std.com> Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 20:45:43 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Dec 27, 99 04:45:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > > > A month or two ago a virus turned up (I think it was Babylon95?) that infects > > .hlp files. Ever since then McAfee has recommended scanning all files, not > > just those named with the traditional extensions for executable code. > > and don't forget those wonderful macro worms in word and excel files.... Can't postscript files also contain executable code that could do things like overwrite files, etc? -Eileen > > -- > Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) > Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 28 09:07:10 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA18899; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:51:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from online.no (pilt-s.online.no [148.122.208.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA18892 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:51:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from a1 (ti08a21-0019.dialup.online.no [130.67.34.19]) by online.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA28227 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 18:02:08 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199912281702.SAA28227@online.no> From: "Annie" Organization: Geocities To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:25:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: In a bind Reply-to: nacelebs@online.no X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi guys, I'm new here, and in a bind! I don't know if this is on the subject of this list, but I'll try anyway: I promote an actor and I've gotten good results based on the material I've had to use. Now an industry guy has challenged me to build an announcement list with tens of thousands of subscribers. I've never seen lists that big for an actor, much less one who hasn't acted for years (last movie was in the eighties...). A new movie will come, but it's still very early. I'd like some background - if you guys know, what is reasonable and realistic on the net. I get really sick of advertising guys who take to the net and believe they know everything about it and can take every non-internet ploy to the internet without any 'translation'. Could you guys help me out with telling me if he expects has any root in reality? Regards Annie From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 28 14:10:41 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA22283; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 14:02:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA22276 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 14:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA16115; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 17:12:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA27893; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 17:12:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 17:12:32 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: Annie cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: In a bind In-Reply-To: <199912281702.SAA28227@online.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 28 Dec 1999, Annie wrote: > Now an industry guy has challenged me to build an > announcement list with tens of thousands of subscribers. I've > never seen lists that big for an actor, much less one who > hasn't acted for years (last movie was in the eighties...). A > new movie will come, but it's still very early. Simply ask this industry guy to provide you with the email addresses of tens of thousands of people who have ASKED to recieve publicity releases about this actor. Given the list of willing subscribers, the logistics of finding a server, wrting the copy and such are relatively simple. Sending announcements to unsuspecting victims would do far more damage than good. Blind emailings are called spam and have many very negative consequences. I have no idea where this fellow got the impression that tens of thousands of people would want to sign up for an announcement list about a inactive performer. I doubt you could get more than a few thousand people intersted in subscribing to an announcement list about Mel Gibson or Tom Hanks, much less for an actor who is not currently a hot ticket. - murr - From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 28 22:08:26 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA26019; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 21:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA26012 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 21:53:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA29450; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 01:03:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 01:03:30 -0500 From: Tim Pierce To: Annie Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: In a bind Message-ID: <19991229010330.M67042@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <199912281702.SAA28227@online.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7us In-Reply-To: <199912281702.SAA28227@online.no> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, Dec 28, 1999 at 12:25:19PM +0100, Annie wrote: > > Now an industry guy has challenged me to build an announcement > list with tens of thousands of subscribers. I've never seen lists that > big for an actor, much less one who hasn't acted for years (last > movie was in the eighties...). A new movie will come, but it's still > very early. > > I'd like some background - if you guys know, what is reasonable > and realistic on the net. > > I get really sick of advertising guys who take to the net and believe > they know everything about it and can take every non-internet ploy > to the internet without any 'translation'. Could you guys help me out > with telling me if he expects has any root in reality? I doubt it. To get a list that big in a short period of time for even a current superstar you would really want to incorporate the list into a traditional PR campaign (e.g. promote it in print ads, movie posters, radio spots). -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb.com lead system admonsterator and Chief Hacking Officer From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 28 23:20:52 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA26824; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 23:10:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kitten.mcs.net (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA26817 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 23:10:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from Jupiter.mcs.net (dattier@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Kitten.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA01282 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 01:21:26 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dattier@Jupiter.mcs.net) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by Jupiter.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.8.2) id BAA28967 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 01:21:26 -0600 (CST) From: "David W. Tamkin" Message-Id: <199912290721.BAA28967@Jupiter.mcs.net> Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. In-Reply-To: <199912280145.UAA27516@world.std.com> from "Dancers' Archive Services" at "Dec 27, 1999 08:45:43 pm" Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 01:21:26 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq wrote, V> When that happens to me, I simply decode the message they sent me V> telling me they arne't sending into HTML into it's HTML form, and V> then return it to them as text. (grin). I rarely get an argument V> after that. Although every once in a while, someone tries to tell me V> it must be my system doing this to their messages.... I tried that once, only to find that their client rendered the HTML and they saw, at the foot of my "look at the junk generated when you use those misbe- gotten anti-features instead of stating your post," all their pretty fonts and colors just as they intended them, and they didn't get what I was com- plaining about. So when I have to do that, first I globally replace all their left-side angle brackets with left braces. Then they get HTML code and see what it really looks like, and how much bulk there is, and how their text is lost amid it. When I wrote, T> A month or two ago a virus turned up (I think it was Babylon95?) that T> infects .hlp files. Ever since then McAfee has recommended scanning all T> files, not just those named with the traditional extensions for executable T> code. Chuq responded, V> and don't forget those wonderful macro worms in word and excel files.... And Eileen -- whose last initial I don't know, so I'll use the first letter of her logname -- asked, d> Can't postscript files also contain executable code that could do things d> like overwrite files, etc? McAfee had already been including those files' extensions in the default list of filetypes for short scans. It was only when they found a virus that in- fects .hlp files that they decided to advise that short scans are not a good idea and that one should always scan all files. However, Jonathan Nash wrote to me off-list that a virus that infects .hlp files had been found some time ago, and that McAfee should have started making that recommendation back then. From list-managers-owner Wed Dec 29 12:50:22 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA06925; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:33:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from online.no (pilt-s.online.no [148.122.208.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA06918 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:33:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from a1 (ti08a23-0122.dialup.online.no [130.67.35.122]) by online.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA04092 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 21:44:00 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199912292044.VAA04092@online.no> From: "Annie" Organization: Geocities To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 20:18:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Thanks for good advice Reply-to: nacelebs@online.no X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi guys, Thanks for good advice! The list has been in existence for several months, and it's already at onelist. I was minding my own business (and doing quite nicely, thank you!) when this guy decided he knew the score. I've managed to get around 30 members on my own. I cold- subscribed a few people when I first started it (no complaints ever!), but since then it's been growing silently. I got a 50 % increase in under a week by inviting people nicely to join (not by sending them invites FROM onelist). These are people who had already e-mailed me, so I didn't break any nettiquette rules. What I was especially thankful for was the response about stars and the potential for their mailing lists. I've seen one topical list with 20 000 + subscribers (newsletter), but I'd really like to know if there actually are any large lists dedicated to a single celebrity or musical group. I guess I'd also be happy if someone told me their worst advertising guy stories - offlist! Glad to be a part of the group! Regards Annie From list-managers-owner Wed Dec 29 17:09:38 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA09829; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 16:44:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA09821 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 16:44:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ifolk.iserver.net (ifolk.iserver.net [192.41.44.203]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA18119 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 07:31:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from SOUTINE2K (adsl-151-202-20-126.bellatlantic.net [151.202.20.126]) by ifolk.iserver.net (8.8.5) id KAA13656; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:41:25 -0500 (EST) From: "Tom Neff" To: Subject: Re: unwanted HTML Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:41:31 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <199912280900.BAA12369@honor.greatcircle.com> Importance: Normal Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:51 PM -0800 12/23/99, SRE wrote: > I also have a big problem with people mostly LookOut users, > (or is that OutLook?) who insist they are not sending HTML > format tags and thousands of nbsp's... In slight defense of these clueless @#$@#ing lusers :), Outlook goes out of its bloated way to sneak HTML in. In the first place it gives you what looks like a format-enriched word processor editor, without telling you that the results will be rendered in HTML or using the word HTML at all unless you dig around... they just talk about "formatted" mail and give you a bunch of pretty little templates that makes it look as though Outlook mail is gorgeous and the competition's mail is dull. In the second place, even when you sucessfully discover the difference between HTML and plain text and absorb the principle that sending conservatively is polite, and you change Outlook's options to create and send plain text by default, there is a SEPARATE setting (easy to miss) that controls what happens if you REPLY to an HTML-ized message. By default, Outlook will reply to a message in the format it was sent, whatever your other preferences may be. What we need is a plain text control just above the SMTP/Sendmail level. By control I mean three settings: [1] accept everything and deliver it as received, [2] accept everything but deliver only the plain text portion, [3] actively refuse (bounce with an error message) anything with a non text component. Putting it into Sendmail itself would really give it some teeth. From list-managers-owner Wed Dec 29 19:29:13 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA11384; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 19:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ikkoku.maison-otaku.net (ikkoku.maison-otaku.net [207.195.149.217]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA11377 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 19:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from godai.maison-otaku.net (godai.maison-otaku.net [216.122.4.241]) by ikkoku.maison-otaku.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83EACAF898; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 19:38:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (loki@localhost) by godai.maison-otaku.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA13275; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 19:27:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: godai.maison-otaku.net: loki owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 19:27:56 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Blackman To: Tom Neff Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: unwanted HTML In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 28 Dec 1999, Tom Neff wrote: > > I also have a big problem with people mostly LookOut users, > > (or is that OutLook?) who insist they are not sending HTML > > format tags and thousands of nbsp's... [snip] > What we need is a plain text control just above the SMTP/Sendmail level. By > control I mean three settings: [1] accept everything and deliver it as > received, [2] accept everything but deliver only the plain text portion, [3] > actively refuse (bounce with an error message) anything with a non text > component. Putting it into Sendmail itself would really give it some teeth. Well, at least for the purposes of mailing lists, it is feasible to plug in various filters before the list delivery. I know of at least one or two that have been written by list members; my own NORM (which is basically just Listar's MIME support stripped out and made standalone for someone who wanted that), the 'demime' that someone else wrote, etc. I don't know about demime, but one of the things that NORM does is examine multipart/alternative and look for text/plain. If it finds it, it uses just that. If the message itself is in HTML, it renders it a'la Lynx and uses that plaintext rendition instead. Also, mailing list software itself is starting to support things like that; it's built into Listar, if you choose to enable the 'humanize-html' option. -- Jeremy Blackman - loki@maison-otaku.net / loki@listar.org / jeremy@lith.com Lithtech Team, Monolith Productions -- http://www.lith.com Listar Developer -- http://www.listar.org From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 30 11:12:47 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA22029; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:39:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [205.147.43.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA22007 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:38:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt (eckert@netcom9.netcom.com [199.183.9.109]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA28033; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:49:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991230100222.009b1210@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:02:22 -0800 To: "David W. Tamkin" From: SRE Subject: Re: warning -- email virus attack. Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199912290721.BAA28967@Jupiter.mcs.net> References: <199912280145.UAA27516@world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:21 AM 12/29/99 -0600, David W. Tamkin wrote: >I tried that once, only to find that their client rendered the HTML and they >saw, at the foot of my "look at the junk generated when you use those misbe- >gotten anti-features instead of stating your post," all their pretty fonts >and colors just as they intended them Globally substitute square brackets for angles... no tool can interpret that! Works for me. I also delete any html and body tags. From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 30 11:27:21 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA22030; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:39:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [205.147.43.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA22011 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:38:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt (eckert@netcom9.netcom.com [199.183.9.109]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA28036 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:49:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991230101000.009ce210@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:10:00 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: SRE Subject: Re: unwanted HTML In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 07:27 PM 12/29/99 -0800, Jeremy Blackman wrote: >I don't know about demime, but one of the things that NORM does is examine >multipart/alternative and look for text/plain. If it finds it, it uses >just that. If the message itself is in HTML, it renders it a'la Lynx and >uses that plaintext rendition instead. As a new user, I can vouch for demime: it handles those "= 20" codes, handles rich text tags like [bold], rejects non-text portions of MIME messages, uses the libwww perl modules to approximate the HTML format in plain text, etc. Even strips out uuencoded data which has been pasted into a plain text section. Generally does a nice job! The answer is NOT to attack the mail tool or the mail sender, which I tried doing for years. Many people LIKE having all that fancy stuff in their email, but even more don't have a clue that it could possibly look different to the receiver than to the sender (like changing the width of the compose message window thinking that will re-wrap the lines, using spaces with variable pitch fonts, etc). The answer is to clean stuff up on the way to the list. Bouncing just reduces the number of people who can/will post, stripping lets both educated and clueless post in the way they feel most comfortable WITHOUT exposing the subscribers to all the formatting. SRE mailto:eckert@climber.org | http://www.climber.org/eckert/ Info on peak climbing email lists mailto:info@climber.org "The only possible interpretation of any research whatever in the `social sciences' is: some do, some don't." -- Ernest Rutherford From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 30 13:32:51 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA23645; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:13:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [205.147.43.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA23638 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:13:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt (eckert@netcom3.netcom.com [199.183.9.103]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA28794; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:24:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991230132719.0099fba0@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:27:19 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: SRE Subject: Re: unwanted HTML In-Reply-To: <19991230161644.D459@blank.org> References: <3.0.5.32.19991230101000.009ce210@pop.climber.org> <3.0.5.32.19991230101000.009ce210@pop.climber.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk sre>> As a new user, I can vouch for demime At 04:16 PM 12/30/99 -0500, Nathan J. Mehl wrote: >Interesting. Pointer to source? Oops! Demime home page: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.html Demime perl script: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.stable Demime config file: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime_junkmail.cf Did I mention it removes "freebie" ads like the footers from Juno and Yahoo? That's what the config file is for. From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 30 21:42:06 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA28703; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:26:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from domains.invweb.net (domains.invweb.net [198.182.196.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA28696 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:26:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from whgiii.geiger.local (IDENT:root@openpgp.net [199.184.252.29]) by domains.invweb.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA28009; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 00:36:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199912310536.AAA28009@domains.invweb.net> From: "William H. Geiger III" Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 01:04:38 -0600 To: "Tom Neff" In-Reply-To: Cc: Subject: Re: unwanted HTML X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.01 c01 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In , on 12/28/99 at 10:41 AM, "Tom Neff" said: >At 1:51 PM -0800 12/23/99, SRE wrote: >> I also have a big problem with people mostly LookOut users, >> (or is that OutLook?) who insist they are not sending HTML >> format tags and thousands of nbsp's... >In slight defense of these clueless @#$@#ing lusers :), Outlook goes out >of its bloated way to sneak HTML in. In the first place it gives you >what looks like a format-enriched word processor editor, without telling >you that the results will be rendered in HTML or using the word HTML at >all unless you dig around... they just talk about "formatted" mail and >give you a bunch of pretty little templates that makes it look as though >Outlook mail is gorgeous and the competition's mail is dull. >In the second place, even when you sucessfully discover the difference >between HTML and plain text and absorb the principle that sending >conservatively is polite, and you change Outlook's options to create and >send plain text by default, there is a SEPARATE setting (easy to miss) >that controls what happens if you REPLY to an HTML-ized message. By >default, Outlook will reply to a message in the format it was sent, >whatever your other preferences may be. >What we need is a plain text control just above the SMTP/Sendmail level. >By control I mean three settings: [1] accept everything and deliver it as >received, [2] accept everything but deliver only the plain text portion, >[3] actively refuse (bounce with an error message) anything with a non >text component. Putting it into Sendmail itself would really give it >some teeth. You could write a simple .procmail script that would handle this, all you trigger on is "Content-Type: text/html;" in the header of the message and go from there. You could even run these html messages through a html->text converter if you wished (myself I just send them to /dev/null). -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html ---------------------------------------------------------------