From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 5 12:47:37 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA21801; Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spock.leben.com (44.225.isdnded3328.hypercon.com [198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F8F17E8E for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21147 for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:48:11 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:48:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Mitchell Leben To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Administration Tools - Mailqq and Outstanding? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I used to have these tools, mailqq and outstanding. No idea where they came from. If you know what the heck I am talking about, please point me in the correct direction. Thank you. -Mitch --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mitchell Leben Owner of epson-inkjet@leben.com mailing mitch@leben.com list for all Epson Inkjet Printers. Send http://www.leben.com/lists 'subscribe epson-inkjet' to majordomo@leben.com From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 8 07:27:04 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA07750; Fri, 8 Sep 2000 07:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AF7C217E8E for ; Fri, 8 Sep 2000 07:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa10339 for ; Fri, 8 Sep 2000 7:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 08 Sep 00 06:35:37 PDT for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Network Dissolutions From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 06:31:38 PDT In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm being spammed by Network Solutions. It's true. I'll bet you are, too. I can MAKE MONEY FAST through a web site they host. Here's the agency supposed to maintain the address book and they're using that data to hustle on the side. What next? The IRS offering up nonaudit.com with every return? tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 8 17:03:58 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA12685; Fri, 8 Sep 2000 16:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (236.dsl9226.rcsis.com [63.92.26.236]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72C217E8E for ; Fri, 8 Sep 2000 16:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA77720; Fri, 8 Sep 2000 17:07:35 -0700 (PDT) To: Tim Bowden Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, "Matt" , "Cricket Liu" Subject: Re: Network Dissolutions In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 08 Sep 2000 06:31:38 -0700. Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 17:07:35 -0700 Message-ID: <77718.968458055@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , you wrote: >I'm being spammed by Network Solutions. It's true. I'll bet >you are, too. I can MAKE MONEY FAST through a web site they >host. > >Here's the agency supposed to maintain the address book and >they're using that data to hustle on the side... As I learned yesterday, they are also stupidly running an open mail relay for spammers. Lookup 216.168.233.68 on the www.orbs.org web site. And of course, wouldn't you know that the output server for that spammer-friendly open mail relay is the exact same one that they use to send you e-mail when you go to their web site and ask them to send you forms via e-mail! Jeeeesshhhhh! So if you use ORBS for spam filtering, you will never again be able to get any forms from NSI *unless* you specially whitelist their spammer-friendly open mail relay. From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 22 06:33:29 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA25379; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stinson.amys-answers.com (stinson.amys-answers.com [205.161.197.97]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE40917ED4 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:23:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from famroom [205.161.197.99] by stinson.amys-answers.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.04) id A2081A4A0226; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 08:43:36 -0500 From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: lIST-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 08:43:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Mail List Software Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com Message-ID: <39CB1BAC.8156.AB3467D@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I was wondering if anyone knows what software is running eGroups or smartgroups? Both of them seem to be running the same thing arranged differently. Just curious. Amy From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 26 11:18:06 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA04235; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 11:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFCB217E8E for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 11:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from margy (max1-44.shoreham.net.253.144.208.in-addr.arpa [208.144.253.48] (may be forged)) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA17309 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20000926143403.00abcf00@mail.iecc.com> Message-Id: <4.1.20000926143403.00abcf00@mail.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@mail.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:35:46 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: New book about online communities, including mailing lists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk FYI, I just wrote a book with John Levine about creating and managing online communities, especially mailing lists (my favorite kind). It's called "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities," in the no-nonsense "Poor Richard's" series published by Top Floor Publishing. For more information, the book's Web site is at . Amazon's page about the book is here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0966103297/greattapesforkidA/ I hope that you find the book helpful -- I'd love any feedback about it! Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 27 11:48:22 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA20503; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B067A17E8E for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa16475 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 27 Sep 00 07:04:56 PDT for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Book Tour From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: <6BN3XF3w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 00 06:58:28 PDT In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000926143403.00abcf00@mail.iecc.com> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Margaret Levine Young writes: > FYI, I just wrote a book with John Levine about creating and managing > online communities, especially mailing lists (my favorite kind). It's > called "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities," First review note: The title sucks. Is Poor Richard building the community? If that's possessive, then you're shy a noun, I'd say, or you have too many adjectives. Second note: Are you offering review copies of Poor Richard's whatever? I think that's traditional, when you ask opinion of the experts. Third: Does Poor Richard offer advice on how to spam mailing lists, like for selling topical books? > I hope that you find the book helpful -- I'd love any feedback about it! Are you sure? tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 27 14:03:03 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA21805; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48BB17E8B for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.27.250] (A17-216-27-250.apple.com [17.216.27.250]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA29024 ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:18:53 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6BN3XF3w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> References: <6BN3XF3w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:58:58 -0700 To: Tim Bowden , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Book Tour Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:58 AM -0700 9/27/00, Tim Bowden wrote: >Margaret Levine Young writes: >Third: Does Poor Richard offer advice on how to spam mailing >lists, like for selling topical books? > No, but I can recommend a few books on chilling out a bit. chuq (one word: decaf) -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'" From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 27 15:33:03 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA22658; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:21:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2BC3F17E8B for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa28560 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 27 Sep 00 15:21:14 PDT for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Book Tour From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Sep 00 15:09:42 PDT In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > At 6:58 AM -0700 9/27/00, Tim Bowden wrote: > >Third: Does Poor Richard offer advice on how to spam mailing > >lists, like for selling topical books? > > No, but I can recommend a few books on chilling out a bit. It's sure hard guessing moods online, ain't it? The Online Community hasn't advanced that far yet. I'm the mellowest creature on the planet. I have been on decaf for some time now. I am Kathie Lee on Prozac. I am in love with Ms Levine and all her works. I also have a book, and I'm so very glad to find a forum so mellow that I can hawk it without the sort of criticism one might find in some of those other lists where they drink expresso. My book was compiled by the wonderful online community NerdNosh, and it features great writing and tasty treats from all over the Global Village, and I do hope you'll try it, and let me know how you like it, paying me $35 American in the meanwhile. Details at www.nerdnosh.org, or write directly to me. I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. I have a jingle but I can't find the way to upload it... tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 27 16:03:36 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA22911; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [216.240.39.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E075717E8B for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mcb@localhost) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) id QAA24373; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200009272308.QAA24373@server.postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:08:01 +0000 In-Reply-To: <6BN3XF3w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Book Tour Cc: Tim Bowden Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) writes: > Margaret Levine Young writes: > > > FYI, I just wrote a book with John Levine about creating and managing > > online communities, especially mailing lists (my favorite kind). It's > > called "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities," > > First review note: The title sucks. Is Poor Richard building the > community? If that's possessive, then you're shy a noun, I'd say, > or you have too many adjectives. > > Second note: Are you offering review copies of Poor Richard's > whatever? I think that's traditional, when you ask opinion of > the experts. > > Third: Does Poor Richard offer advice on how to spam mailing > lists, like for selling topical books? Ouch! I do not know Margaret personally, but John Levine has been a longtime member of our community of list managers, and has provided valuable advice and resources over the years. News about books by our members, pertaining to list management, are certainly welcome on List-Managers. If your NerdNosh book is about list management (or reasonably related topics), by all means feel free to tell us about it here! In neither case does that mean posting a message every week on how to buy it, but announcements, discussion, solicitation of comments, etc., are certainly appropriate for List-Managers. -- Michael C. Berch List-Managers List Manager mcb@greatcircle.com / mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 27 16:18:03 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA22963; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F6417E8B for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from margy (max1-12.shoreham.net.253.144.208.in-addr.arpa [208.144.253.16] (may be forged)) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA25504 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20000927190355.00b50d90@mail.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@mail.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:10:22 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: Book Tour In-Reply-To: <6BN3XF3w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> References: <4.1.20000926143403.00abcf00@mail.iecc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> called "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities," > >First review note: The title sucks. Is Poor Richard building the >community? If that's possessive, then you're shy a noun, I'd say, >or you have too many adjectives. That's one problem with writing a book that's in a series. The series is "Poor Richard's XXX," starting with "Poor Richard's Web Site" and going on with about five more books so far. I agree with you! (The whole list is at www.topfloor.com, the publisher's site.) >Second note: Are you offering review copies of Poor Richard's >whatever? I think that's traditional, when you ask opinion of >the experts. Yes, I'd love to send review copies to folks who have community-related Web sites, review books for magazines, or whatever. Write to me privately. >Third: Does Poor Richard offer advice on how to spam mailing >lists, like for selling topical books? Well, I obviously thought a lot about spam before posting the message. I decided that for a list about managing mailing lists, and a book about participating in and managing mailing lists, newsgroups, and message boards, interest in the topic would probably make the post acceptable. I may have been wrong. I do offer a lot of the mailing list-related information for free on the Web, at http://lists.gurus.com -- I announced that on this list a while ago. I know I was thrilled when someone posted an announcement of Amy Jo Kim's book on managing communities this past spring. >> I hope that you find the book helpful -- I'd love any feedback about it! >Are you sure? Yup! Send it to me privately, if you don't think it would be of general interest to the list (eg., typos) or to the list, if others would want to know (eg., corrections to technical misconceptions). Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 27 17:33:04 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA23948; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castro.queernet.org (castro.queernet.org [209.157.101.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 746FF17E8B for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by castro.queernet.org (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e8S0hXx21919 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:43:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Tim Bowden Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Book Tour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Tim Bowden wrote: > I also have a book, and I'm so very glad to find a forum so > mellow that I can hawk it without the sort of criticism one > might find in some of those other lists where they drink expresso. If it happens to be a book that's on-charter for this list, like one about running mailing lists, go for it. > > My book was compiled by the wonderful online community NerdNosh, and > it features great writing and tasty treats from all over the Global > Village, and I do hope you'll try it, and let me know how you like it, > paying me $35 American in the meanwhile. But it isn't. So sad, your bad. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114 "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 27 18:48:07 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA24551; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 18:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from radiushou.trip.net (ns2.qaccess.net [216.89.32.195]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18DC17E8B for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 18:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 0d8xk (ppp-173.lake-jackson.mastnet.net [206.66.213.173]) by radiushou.trip.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07117 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:54:59 -0500 From: "Alan S. Harrell" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:54:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Book Tour Reply-To: ASHandRR@mastnet.net Message-ID: <39D25E94.5371.5E8E2D@localhost> In-reply-to: <200009272308.QAA24373@server.postmodern.com> References: <6BN3XF3w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 27 Sep 2000, 16:08, Michael C. Berch wrote: > Ouch! I do not know Margaret personally, but John Levine has been > a longtime member of our community of list managers, and has provided > valuable advice and resources over the years. > > News about books by our members, pertaining to list management, are > certainly welcome on List-Managers. If your NerdNosh book is about > list management (or reasonably related topics), by all means feel free > to tell us about it here! > > In neither case does that mean posting a message every week on how to > buy it, but announcements, discussion, solicitation of comments, etc., > are certainly appropriate for List-Managers. As listowner of this list, that would certainly be your prerogative, but I would not allow this on my lists -- even if the product or service was topical to the list. In my opinion a discussion mailing list is for discussing issues topical to the list rather than to be a marketplace for our wares, be they related to the list topics or not. There was a mailing list that I previously owned where the world's leading authority of one of the major topics of my list posted up to the list and in his .sig there was a solicitation to purchase his book. In turn, I wrote him a "No No Nanette" cease and desist letter and he acquiesced and abided by my decision. I later gave the book my own personal recommendation to the members of the list. The difference here was that I had nothing to gain, monetarily or otherwise. On the other hand he did and thus that was in violation of my list rules. I later got an autographed copy of his book and turned around and purchased three of those books for colleagues and another of his books for myself. Neither I know Margaret personally...at least not that I can remember. As you note, her book is clearly along the lines of the scope and topic of this list, but make no mistake, she is using us to promote her book. Were I paying for this list out of my own pocket, it would trouble me to know someone was exploiting my hard work and labor for their personal gain. I tend to view this as theft and thus prohibit these kinds of activities on my lists. I fervently believe that e-commerce belongs on the web and not in e-mail, and in particular not in e-mail discussion forums. In any event, for the purposes of discussion, I would be interested in how Ms. Young herself would deal with a similar case on a list to which she owned or moderated. Is there a chapter in her book that touches upon this situation? Does the book address personal solicitations by subscribers in discussion mailing lists? How does she advise us to handle the so-called spammer or commercial solicitor on her lists? I would be interested in hearing her opinion. Alan ashandrr@mastnet.net From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 27 19:33:03 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA25029; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from green.syncronym.org (green.syncronym.org [216.118.17.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A8B8F17E8B for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 99474 invoked from network); 28 Sep 2000 02:48:55 -0000 Received: from citadel.in.taronga.com (10.0.0.43) by 10.1.1.2 with SMTP; 28 Sep 2000 02:48:55 -0000 Received: by citadel.in.taronga.com (Postfix, from userid 101) id 42E8441417; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:48:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Book Tour To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:48:55 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000928024855.42E8441417@citadel.in.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > In any event, for the purposes of discussion, I would be interested in > how Ms. Young herself would deal with a similar case on a list to which > she owned or moderated. Is there a chapter in her book that touches > upon this situation? I believe that would be Chapter 13: Encouraging, Sharing and Responding to Dissension. :-) Flipping through the book, I see repeating themes as they touch on the different communites (mailing lists, newsgroups, chat communities, etc). Things like stay on-topic, no ads if ads are not allowed, all stuff you and I know by rote. Since the moderator of this list has already declared the post on-topic, then AFAIC, the situation is resolved (the book recommends respecting the wishes of your community moderators, again, common sense stuff). Personally, if I had not heard about and obtained the book through other means, I would have been interested in the message and as a result, interested in inquiring on how to get my hands on a copy of the book. The book is pretty basic. Most of it is stuff I already know. But there are bits here and there of unfamiliar territory and those are the things I'm interested in reading and learning about. (does this qualify as a review?) From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 27 20:33:03 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA25458; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772C917E8B for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from margy (max1-31.shoreham.net.253.144.208.in-addr.arpa [208.144.253.35] (may be forged)) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA26738 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:39:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20000927230809.00adf9e0@mail.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@mail.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:30:12 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: Book Tour In-Reply-To: <39D25E94.5371.5E8E2D@localhost> References: <200009272308.QAA24373@server.postmodern.com> <6BN3XF3w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan: >As listowner of this list, that would certainly be your prerogative, >but I would not allow this on my lists -- even if the product or >service was topical to the list. This is a good point -- each mailing list manager makes the rules for his or her own list. I should have checked with the list manager first -- my dumb move! Because of the Internet's non-commercial origins, some people mistakenly think that the Internet shouldn't be used for commercial use, or that if anyone is making any money off of something, it is wrong. Most list managers I know don't hold this view, and allow postings that provide value to the subscribers. That's the rule I use -- would a subscriber gain valuable information from this post? I am eager to learn about books and Web sites -- both items from which people make money -- about managing lists (and especially about people managing entire list sites). So I figured (perhaps incorrectly) that other subscribers to this list would want to know about new sources of list-management information. That's what we are all here for -- to get ideas and answers about list management. And don't worry -- if you think I'm gonna make big bucks from this book (although I'd love to be proven wrong), I'll be stunned. But Alan makes an important point: The list manager makes the rules. List rules vary widely, in requirements for on-topic postings, for tone, for commercial content, for adherence to copyright law, and for volume of messages. Different rules work for different lists. >Is there a chapter in her book that touches >upon this situation? Does the book address personal solicitations by >subscribers in discussion mailing lists? How does she advise us to >handle the so-called spammer or commercial solicitor on her lists? Yes, the book talks a bunch about this. Part of the book is nuts and bolts stuff about participating in and managing mailing lists, newsgroups, chat rooms, and message boards. But there are also chapters on publicizing a community, encouraging participation by subscribers, responding to dissension, privacy, spam, copyright, and other higher-level issues. If a subscriber posts spam (commercial, religious, or other e-mail that is unrelated to the topic of the list), the manager may warn the spammer privately, then eject him/her after a second offense. I don't recommend having the argument on-list, since the other subscribers usually don't want to hear about it. The manager may switch the subscriber to be moderated, if the list management software supports this options. If the manager ejects the subscriber, s/he may make suspension temporary or permanent, depending on whether the subscriber has participated in other ways, or whether sending spam was the subscribers only involvement in the list. Hope this clarifies my thinking! Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 27 21:03:04 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA25767; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.rev.net (mail.rev.net [206.67.68.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D15F17E8B for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fantasy (USER179.GVA.NET [216.80.135.183]) by mail.rev.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e8S4FwL10081 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 00:15:59 -0400 Message-Id: <200009280415.e8S4FwL10081@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 00:15:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Book Tour In-reply-to: <39D25E94.5371.5E8E2D@localhost> References: <200009272308.QAA24373@server.postmodern.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 27 Sep 2000, at 20:54, Alan S. Harrell wrote: > There was a mailing list that I previously owned where the world's > leading authority of one of the major topics of my list posted up to > the list and in his .sig there was a solicitation to purchase his book. > In turn, I wrote him a "No No Nanette" cease and desist letter and he > acquiesced and abided by my decision. I later gave the book my own > personal recommendation to the members of the list. The difference > here was that I had nothing to gain, monetarily or otherwise. On the > other hand he did and thus that was in violation of my list rules. Well, your list rules aside I find this 'difference' basically silly. Remember the old saw about on the Internet no one knows you're a dog. The "difference" has to do with something that *NO*ONE* can verify or possibly know -- it is some vague notion out in ethics-land that has nothing to do with the Internet or your forum, and is largely not verifiable. I've always thought that postings should stand on *their*own*, just as they're posted, rather than having things like personal opinions about the poster, the poster's state of mind, what business connections the poster may or may not have, etc, end up figuring into the mix in some nondeterministic way. If the post is reasonable, on topic, civil, not repeated to the point of irritating folk, then it should be OK no matter *who* posts it; and conversely if the post is NOT reasonable or off topic or not civil or is endlessly repeated, then it ought not be OK *regardless* of who posts it... > Neither I know Margaret personally...at least not that I can remember. > As you note, her book is clearly along the lines of the scope and topic > of this list, but make no mistake, she is using us to promote her book. So what?? > Were I paying for this list out of my own pocket, it would trouble me > to know someone was exploiting my hard work and labor for their > personal gain. Oh please, I'm *SO* tired of this old argument. I suspect that the semi- spam trailers that various mailbox-systems tack on cost you more than an occasional reasonable, albeit self-interested, posting does. OTOH, if you ARE paying for it out of your pocket, you can make the rules be anything you please, I guess... But I still think this kind of hair- splitting [for *on*topic* reasonable mentions of things that would legitimately be of interest to the forum participants] is excessive... If that's really what your goal is (to not let *anyone* reap commercial benefit from your hard-earned money spent to operate your forum), then at least be consistent and block *ALL* commercial postings, no matter by whom, and keep your forum wholly pure and at least have your rules make some sense [and have a shot at being rationally deterministic and enforceable] > ... How does she advise us to > handle the so-called spammer or commercial solicitor on her lists? I > would be interested in hearing her opinion. I know you're not interested in mine, but as I said, my rule is easy: you evaluate the message *on*its*own*. You don't guess about who wrote it, what they do for a living, whether their brother in law might actually own the print shop that does the user's manual for the product in question nor a thousand other foolish things --- just take the posting *as*it*is* and decide if it is a reasonable and proper contribution to the forum and otherwise presume that EVERY header line of the message is forged or pseudonymous and ought not be used for filtering or mkaing other secondary guesses about... If you don't want commercial activity/plugs/promotions on your forum, then block 'em all; if reasonable, information, useful-to-the-participants postings are welcome, then they should be welcome no matter WHO posts them... I mean, I own two shares of MS stock -- so does that mean I'd be barred from suggesting that someone use Word to print info on a CD cover in your forum (as I just did on a different forum)? How about if I did the artwork for the picture on the cover of the CD, and so I get $US.02 royalty for each one sold... that too close a commercial connection for me to be allowed to mention something? How silly is the "no commercial self-interests" rule going to go? /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 27 21:18:34 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA25916; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C49A17E8B for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e8S4Q8S29986; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 00:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA02697; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 00:26:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 00:26:07 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: "Alan S. Harrell" Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Book Tour In-Reply-To: <39D25E94.5371.5E8E2D@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Alan S. Harrell wrote: > As listowner of this list, that would certainly be your > prerogative, but I would not allow this on my lists -- even > if the product or service was topical to the list. In my > opinion a discussion mailing list is for discussing issues > topical to the list rather than to be a marketplace for our > wares, be they related to the list topics or not. We've had a discussion about on-list advertising once before... That discussion may have been on another list. I was somewhat surprised by all of the different policies other list admins have for their lists. Some allow no ads at all. Some allow limited on-topic ads. One person mentioned that she had an advertising amnesty day. On-topic ads were allowed one day a month on her list. I think one admin set up a daughter list specifically for ads relating to the topic of the main list. There is no universally accepted policy that is right for all lists and all people. I allow limited on-topic ads on most of my lists. Within reasonable limits, I don't mind seeing a modest number of on-topic ads on most of the lists I subscribe to. I spend perhaps an hour a day tracking down spammers in an effort to get their accounts, web pages and mail boxes yanked. On the other hand, I don't attack every ad that I see on a mailing list. - murr - From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 27 22:33:31 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA26708; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.vnet.net (smtp1.vnet.net [166.82.1.31]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D55F17EB1 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:27:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp1.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e8S0ZrL12689 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA19632 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:28:43 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Book Tour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > At 6:58 AM -0700 9/27/00, Tim Bowden wrote: > >Margaret Levine Young writes: > > >Third: Does Poor Richard offer advice on how to spam mailing > >lists, like for selling topical books? > > > > No, but I can recommend a few books on chilling out a bit. > > chuq (one word: decaf) Chuq and I have had our differences. This isn't one of them. I second his proposal. Relax. One screenful of relatively low-key text about a new book, which is directly on-topic for this mailing list, ain't spam by my reckoning... If the author posts the notice every other day or for some reason dozens of authors start writing similar books and posting announcements, I reserve the right to change my mind. ;-) - murr - From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 27 23:03:16 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA26895; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334B717EB1 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e8S67DJ21683; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:07:13 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200009280415.e8S4FwL10081@mail.rev.net> References: <200009272308.QAA24373@server.postmodern.com> <200009280415.e8S4FwL10081@mail.rev.net> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:57:25 -0700 To: "Bernie Cosell" , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Book Tour Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:15 AM -0400 9/28/00, Bernie Cosell wrote: >Well, your list rules aside I find this 'difference' basically silly. >Remember the old saw about on the Internet no one knows you're a dog. woof. oh, um, meow. > > Neither I know Margaret personally...at least not that I can remember. >> As you note, her book is clearly along the lines of the scope and topic >> of this list, but make no mistake, she is using us to promote her book. > >So what?? A good argument could be made everyone here is using the list to forward their own goals and agendas. If they aren't, why the hell are they here? What matter is whether their usage of the list coincides with the needs and interest of the list itself. Heck, I've had a good number of people solicit me to consult on issues because of (at least in part) my presence and discussions on this list. Is that a booga-booga too? > > Were I paying for this list out of my own pocket, it would trouble me >> to know someone was exploiting my hard work and labor for their >> personal gain. > >Oh please, I'm *SO* tired of this old argument. So am I. Were he paying for the list out of his own pocket, he could set the rules, and that'd be great. But he's not -- so what he'd do if he was doesn't really matter, does it? Now -- I *do* pay for all sorts of things out of my own pocket, and I *do* get honked off when people attempt to use the services I pay for in ways I don't want them used, including really blatant commercialism. But announcing a book that's relevant to the topic at hand doesn't bother me. Everyone benefits, author and list subscribers. That seems fair. Now, promoting the book weekly -- that's another matter. What bothers me even more than promotions like this is when people get into the mindset that nothing ought ot be allowed on a mail list if it upsets (or might upset) anyone on the list. down that road lies pablum, but the intolerance of anything that isn't within the purview of the personal tunnel vision is a much larger problem than an occasional puff piece. God help us that someone might post something one person doesn't like -- we must ban everything like that. Especially if the person upset is loud and noisy about it... (if there's one thing I'm intolerant of, it's intolerance. Excuse me while I go unpush the hot button...) >OTOH, if you ARE paying for it out of your pocket, you can make the rules >be anything you please, I guess... And if the list is interesting and useful, we'll read it, too. > > ... How does she advise us to >> handle the so-called spammer or commercial solicitor on her lists? I >> would be interested in hearing her opinion. > >I know you're not interested in mine, but as I said, my rule is easy: you >evaluate the message *on*its*own*. Or mine -- and it's really simple. Does the posting benefit the list? If it does, it's no problem. If it doesn't benefit the list, or if it creates problesm for the list, it doesn't. Oh, wait. That would imply that lists that start meta-arguments or fights on the list are a bigger problem than the posting that the person who starts the fight was complaining about. Oops. I guess that's my bad.... It's always okay to waste list bandwidth complaining about stuff, even if that stuff was a well-meaning attempt to add useful content to the list.... chuq (did I do pompous ass properly here? I'm practicing....) -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'" From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 27 23:18:04 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA27122; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72EC17E8B for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (lev@localhost) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA30972; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:30:29 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:30:29 -0500 (EST) From: Paul K- X-Sender: lev@kirkwood.hoosier.net To: murr rhame Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Book Tour /Spelling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Correction. On M. Rhame's name. Appologies. - - - - Paul To have doubted one's first principles is the mark of a civilized man. : - Oliver Wendell Holmes : :*nine_stories*,salinger=****=djembes................................: From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 27 23:33:03 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA27110; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 636B117E8B for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (lev@localhost) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA30901 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:28:06 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:28:05 -0500 (EST) From: Paul K- X-Sender: lev@kirkwood.hoosier.net To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Book Tour /Big Brother, (Blue Oyster Cult?) In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000927230809.00adf9e0@mail.iecc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As so often, Murr Rame's post showed careful thinking /realism. On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Margaret Levine Young wrote: > > Because of the Internet's non-commercial origins, some people mistakenly > think that the Internet shouldn't be used for commercial use, or that if The Internet could be used, once was believed, for purposes of intellect - or humanitarian purposes. As slick magazine mentality prevails more and more brazenly however, and Readers Digest mentaility prevails, that hope fades. As K-Mart/quality products are billboarded, the possibility of Internet fades... can no longer be spoken of clearly as a force for good. By now, the Internet seems on a par with the dream of social betterment which television was. !!( Y M M V [Example: http://www.support-group.com has ceased being a simple-looking index. Due to advice from looming advertizers, it is losing its alternative/health spirit.] Maybe things will change, then again. Maybe another Auschwitz *with* "1984" will come. Accompanied by the little monitor screens /but a bit around the corner in the room, you know? Perhaps that can be the result of _Internet, No-Longer-Decentralized, Now with a Smiling Moron's Guide_. What d'ya suppose Kafka and the scholars who care for Kafka would use the Internet for? 0 generally. > > ButAlan makes an important point:The list manager makes therules. List.. You are so right. Lists are not expected to have democratic standards or base-structure. Definitely point worth making. Here you are clearly on the right end. Unfortunately for me and my friends. :I .. > > Margy Levine Young > Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" -member of the dummy-squared crowd Paul --^ . . . Human powered vehicles . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O __O O O O _O < _-\<,_ _\_/^* _\__ \_/^* /| | /| (*)/ (*) (*) O (*) \* O From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 28 05:24:11 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA03571; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 05:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from radiushou.trip.net (ns2.qaccess.net [216.89.32.195]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE4717E8B for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 05:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 0d8xk (ppp-181.lake-jackson.mastnet.net [206.66.213.181]) by radiushou.trip.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09749 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:32:51 -0500 From: "Alan S. Harrell" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:32:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Book Tour Reply-To: ASHandRR@mastnet.net Message-ID: <39D2F413.31567.7A0B68@localhost> In-reply-to: <4.1.20000927230809.00adf9e0@mail.iecc.com> References: <39D25E94.5371.5E8E2D@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 27 Sep 2000, 23:30, Margaret Levine Young wrote: > This is a good point -- each mailing list manager makes the rules for > his or her own list. I should have checked with the list manager first > -- my dumb move! As it turns out, no so -- dumb, that is. :-) The listowner clearly gave his blessing for your post. I was just making the point that I and possibly other listowners would not be so receptive to that kind of post. > Because of the Internet's non-commercial origins, some people mistakenly > think that the Internet shouldn't be used for commercial use, That is not a *mistake*; it is a difference of opinion. The *mistake* is in when the commercial interests think that they have dominate rights to the Internet and their belief that the Internet has no room for free thinkers and those whom can operate in the Internet free of commercial gain and their belief they can run roughshod on all those whom oppose them. There is and should always be, portions of our Internet that are free and clear of commercial interests. > or that if anyone is making any money off of something, it is wrong. The wrong here is in using someone else's money and/or labor without permission to make money solely for yourself or firm. Another wrong is in making the assumption that your commercial enterprise is wanted by all those whom you force your presence upon. It's not. It never will be. In a forum such as this one, you are bound to annoy a certain number of people with your advertisement. I can't say if the owner pays for the hosting of this list, but his time spent administering to the list has value. By allowing your post, he has paid some toward your advertising budget. He may not object to this himself, but as for me, I would not wish to pay for my subscribers' commercials. They can spend their own money for their ads. > Most list managers I know don't hold this view, and allow postings > that provide value to the subscribers. We travel in different circles. Most I know do hold the same view as I. Most listmanagers I know would have removed you as a subscriber or at the least, sent you a warning letter. > That's the rule I use -- would a subscriber gain valuable information > from this post? Moi aussi, but an addendum to that rule for me is in looking if the poster is trying to gain monetarily or otherwise some consideration. When that is the case, they lose credibility. It also is not allowed on my lists. If you wanted to extol the virtues of someone else's book for which you had no vested interest, then I for one would find that valuable and meritorious for the subscribers and especially credible since you are an author of Internet books, yourself. But when you serve to gain personally and more so - financially from the post, then conflict of interest enters and your credibility is suspect. > I am eager to learn about books and Web sites -- both items from > which people make money -- about managing lists (and especially about > people managing entire list sites). So I figured (perhaps > incorrectly) that other subscribers to this list would want to know > about new sources of list-management information. That's what we are > all here for -- to get ideas and answers about list management. Yes, but once again your credibility is at issue with your self promotion. I would have had far more respect for your book had someone else on the list that had nothing to gain, given a positive review of your book. > And don't worry -- if you think I'm gonna make big bucks from this book > (although I'd love to be proven wrong), I'll be stunned. We are not worried about that and we all wish you great success with your endeavors. Our worry or shall we say concern would be that other subscribers on this list might come to believe that this list is now a classified ads' list where they can hawk their wares ad nauseum. [...] > If a subscriber posts spam (commercial, religious, or other e-mail that > is unrelated to the topic of the list), the manager may warn the spammer > privately, then eject him/her after a second offense. If the admonition to not spam is clearly listed in the Welcome letter with the proviso that one would be removed in such cases, then the warning would not be a requirement. Warnings are given in cases where the policy has not been made so clearly. > Hope this clarifies my thinking! It does and we thank you for your ideas and input, Margaret. :-) The best advice I've always given potential listowners is for them to subscribe to many different mailing lists themselves prior to their ownership of a list in a sort of apprenticeship. They can observe the listowners of their various lists and make notes to themselves of the best and worst things they see the listowner doing. They can then take the best policies to their own list and leave the worst behind. For newcomers on this list, they need to look at your post and look at the owner's blessing and ask themselves "Would this be best for my list?" Alan ashandrr@mastnet.net From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 28 05:54:12 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA03854; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 05:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 031E917E8B for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 05:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from margy (max1-10.shoreham.net.253.144.208.in-addr.arpa [208.144.253.14] (may be forged)) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA06045 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:08:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20000928084216.00a48d30@mail.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@mail.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:45:50 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: Book Tour In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >If the author posts >the notice every other day or for some reason dozens of authors >start writing similar books and posting announcements, I reserve >the right to change my mind. ;-) Exactly! I have a new or updated book come out three or four times a year, and I'd never dream of announcing to this list, because they aren't about mailing list management. There may be a spate of online community books, but most of the new ones seem to be about ways to trick people into spending more time on your Web site, viewing banner ads, by offering message boards. John and I refused to limit our book to coverage of Web-based stuff, since we feel that real online community happens in mailings and newsgroups. Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 28 06:09:22 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA03855; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 05:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC9B017EB2 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 05:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from margy (max1-10.shoreham.net.253.144.208.in-addr.arpa [208.144.253.14] (may be forged)) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA06056 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:08:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20000928084647.00ad5220@mail.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@mail.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:58:26 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: Book Tour In-Reply-To: References: <200009280415.e8S4FwL10081@mail.rev.net> <200009272308.QAA24373@server.postmodern.com> <200009280415.e8S4FwL10081@mail.rev.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >What bothers me even more than promotions like this is when people >get into the mindset that nothing ought ot be allowed on a mail list >if it upsets (or might upset) anyone on the list. down that road lies >pablum, but the intolerance of anything that isn't within the purview >of the personal tunnel vision is a much larger problem than an >occasional puff piece. God help us that someone might post something >one person doesn't like -- we must ban everything like that. I've been involved in an experiment along these lines. There's been a mailing list for years for Unitarian Universalists to talk about whatever they like, called UUs-L . The level of personal attacks, sniping, and nitpicking has driven lots of people away, include people who might have considered joining a Unitarian Universalist church. So the Unitarian Universalist Association set up UU-Community, a moderated list, to be a "kinder, gentler" list . It's kinder and gentler, all right, but it's also kinda boring. It just feels like there's no there there. Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 28 06:25:31 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA03821; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 05:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FAE517E8B for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 05:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomw70 (dsl_120w70 [151.202.20.126]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e8SD5HO75451 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:05:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Tom Neff" To: Subject: Re: value to the members / shoes for industry Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:05:22 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <200009280800.BAA28151@honor.greatcircle.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Most of us do apply the rule "will this info be of value to the members" before posting, not to mention teaching our members the same rule. I have sometimes observed, though, that when WE have something to sell, or something to boast of having created (for sale or not), our internal "will this be of value"-measurer tends to slide open a notch or two. Whereas when the other fellow has something the sell, the meter might actually tighten a notch. Margaret's post was fine of course. It's not like there's a new book on managing communities published every week so we have to worry about being inundated. On the contrary, it's a rarity, so this is good news. (I haven't seen the book yet.) I disagree with (and dislike) the comment that we're all here to advance our own agendas, or else why come? We are here (or we should be here imho) to share stuff we've learned with others, to learn from what others have to share, and to debate new stuff of concern to us all as list managers. In many cases we do this for years without ever "plugging" -- or even mentioning -- the specific lists that we run. On our own lists, we're often tired at the end of the day from wielding the machete against jungles of spam, cranky members, software annoyances and so on. It's a pleasure to be a "mere member" on a list where we know we have a common interest uniting us -- and very little to try and sell to each other. :) From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 28 06:54:18 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA04388; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED4B017E8B for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from margy (max1-28.shoreham.net.253.144.208.in-addr.arpa [208.144.253.32] (may be forged)) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA17009 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:00:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20000928094753.00a25410@mail.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@mail.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:02:49 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: Book Tour In-Reply-To: <39D2F413.31567.7A0B68@localhost> References: <4.1.20000927230809.00adf9e0@mail.iecc.com> <39D25E94.5371.5E8E2D@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >If you wanted to extol the virtues of someone else's book for which you >had no vested interest, then I for one would find that valuable and >meritorious for the subscribers and especially credible since you are >an author of Internet books, yourself. Good idea. Anyone who hasn't seen Alan Schwartz's "Managing Mailing Lists" (published by O'Reilly), should take a look. He covers Majordomo, LISTSERV, ListProc, and SmartList lists in great detail. He doesn't cover web-based lists like eGroups/Yahoo and Topica, and he doesn't talk about the social side of list management. But the technical content is awesome --there's detailed information about installing list software, creating lists, and configuring them. There's more info at . Amy Jo Kim's book, "Community Building on the Web," doesn't have a lot about mailing lists per se, but her coverage of community management applies to mailing lists as well as to Web-based communities. She talks about recruiting, training, and empowering community managers, etiquette, events, rituals, and creating subgroups, all of which can be translated into a mailing list context. Since I manage individual lists and a ListProc site (as a volunteer) for a non-profit, I didn't identify with the stuff about building big Web-based community sites. But I want to reread the parts about recruiting, training, and managing list managers, because it's an important topic for organizations that run a lot of lists (like many colleges and universities). The book is described at . Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 28 07:29:49 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA04825; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [160.91.68.105]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B24CC17E8B for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 633006 invoked by uid 3995); 28 Sep 2000 14:38:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14803.22501.513354.549604@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:38:29 -0400 From: Dave Sill To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: value to the members / shoes for industry In-Reply-To: References: <200009280800.BAA28151@honor.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.76 under 21.1 "20 Minutes to Nikko" XEmacs Lucid (patch 2) Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >I disagree with (and dislike) the comment that we're all here to >advance our own agendas, or else why come? When you get right down to it, all motivation is selfish. Nobody does anything for a net personal loss. Your reward may simply be feeling good about yourself or it may be more obvious like learning, making money, or satisfying one of the basic needs (food, clothing, shelter). >We are here (or we should be here imho) to share stuff we've learned >with others, ...because it makes us feel good (helpful, knowledgeable, etc.) or we think it makes the world a better place, which benefits everyone. >to learn from what others have to share, which is obviously selfish. >and to debate new stuff of concern to us all as list managers. And why do people debate? To convince others to adopt their beliefs. Why do people want others to adopt their beliefs? Lots of reasons, including validating those beliefs, wanting a community of like-minded people to associate with, etc. Or maybe they just get a good feeling from knowing that they've enlightened someone. >In many cases we do this for years without ever "plugging" -- or even >mentioning -- the specific lists that we run. You might not plug your lists, books, or services, but you plug your ideas. You participate over the long term because you get more out of the list than you put in--though the rewards are rarely monetary. -Dave From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 28 08:55:58 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA05622; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A263917E8B for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e8SFmTJ32007; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:48:29 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <14803.22501.513354.549604@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> References: <200009280800.BAA28151@honor.greatcircle.com> <14803.22501.513354.549604@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:50:14 -0700 To: Dave Sill , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: value to the members / shoes for industry Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:38 AM -0400 9/28/00, Dave Sill wrote: > >And why do people debate? To convince others to adopt their >beliefs. sometimes I'm convinced it's because they like hearing their own voice. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'" From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 28 11:10:51 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA07590; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunderer.cnchost.com (thunderer.concentric.net [207.155.252.72]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 267A017E8B for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crudpuppy.vo.cnchost.com ([208.37.12.181]) by thunderer.cnchost.com id OAA24459; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:22:19 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000928110035.034ae4b0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:22:17 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: JC Dill Subject: Re: Book Tour In-Reply-To: <39D2F413.31567.7A0B68@localhost> References: <4.1.20000927230809.00adf9e0@mail.iecc.com> <39D25E94.5371.5E8E2D@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 05:32 AM 9/28/00, Alan S. Harrell wrote: >On 27 Sep 2000, 23:30, Margaret Levine Young wrote: >> Most list managers I know don't hold this view, and allow postings >> that provide value to the subscribers. > >We travel in different circles. Most I know do hold the same view as >I. Most listmanagers I know would have removed you as a subscriber or >at the least, sent you a warning letter. > >> That's the rule I use -- would a subscriber gain valuable information >> from this post? > >Moi aussi, but an addendum to that rule for me is in looking if the >poster is trying to gain monetarily or otherwise some consideration. >When that is the case, they lose credibility. It also is not allowed >on my lists. Everyone is always trying to gain: money, prestige, publicity, you name it. There's *always* a personal ulterior motive. IMHO, to separate money from all the other motives is rather silly. What it comes down to is "Does it provide value to the subscribers?", not "Does the poster get some value out of this?". The poster always gets some value out of it, that's why they post. On all the lists I manage, and on most of the (numerous, industry and hobby) lists I subscribe to, if a valued contributor posts something that is commercially valuable to the poster, but ALSO of substantial on-topic value to the list subscribers, then it's welcomed and permitted. (As such, the book tour post that started this thread would be welcomed and permitted.) If a new subscriber joins the list apparently to solely and specifically to hawk their wares, then they are larted. If a valued contributor puts a small .sig that mentions an on-topic product for sale, that's welcomed. If someone has an obnoxious .sig and posts repetitively primarily to push their .sig in front of people without really adding content to the list, that's larted. While spam of this sort may be hard to clearly define, it is not hard to determine. As US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material... I know it when I see it." jc (I'm not trying to sell anything, therefore this might be to gain me prestige, or publicity. Then again, it might not. :-) From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 28 12:28:30 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA08468; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from radiushou.trip.net (ns2.qaccess.net [216.89.32.195]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E375E17E8B for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 0d8xk (ppp-178.lake-jackson.mastnet.net [206.66.213.178]) by radiushou.trip.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12267 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:29:55 -0500 From: "Alan S. Harrell" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:29:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: value to the members / shoes for industry Reply-To: ASHandRR@mastnet.net Message-ID: <39D355D3.15550.728706@localhost> In-reply-to: References: <14803.22501.513354.549604@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 28 Sep 2000, 8:50, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > >And why do people debate? To convince others to adopt their > >beliefs. > > sometimes I'm convinced it's because they like hearing their own voice. Absolutely. Truly the mark of a great listowner. Alan ashandrr@mastnet.net From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 28 13:28:54 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA08720; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 04D7317E8B for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa09511 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 28 Sep 00 12:30:03 PDT for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Book Tour From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 11:44:28 PDT In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk First I mean no offense to Margaret Levine Young; I find her presence here both gracious and reasonable. I also think it must be stressed from time to time how different are the natures of the various lists represented here. I have a small family of some 450 members (15% discount on introductory merchandise for all who join by Oct 1!), and among that group are some dedicated writers, and there is much more demanded of them than in a discussion group. They must produce copy out of their own chronicles, and the Nosh runs in a daily magazine, so it isn't something that can be tossed off in a moment or two (as I'm doing here). Consequently, I am perhaps a bit more welcoming of those who contribute and more forgiving of their foibles than I might be were I the host of a popular topic like, say, Sex in Taxis, with a turnaway expert audience and brisk traffic. My own experience, some years ago. Someone new came on NerdNosh, which is a group forum for diary or journal writers ($50 per year, free T-shirt included, chance to win a Buick!). Her story was all about the trials and tribulations of the overweight woman in our supermodel society etc etc etc. She weighed over 400 pounds, and seemed proud of that as a personal statement of some weird sort. Then came the tagline; she was selling yoga tapes for fat folk. I told her it wasn't allowed, and she was ready for me. She strung a list of about four other writers who carried sigs in their stories which might win them profit if anyone followed the leads. She allowed us to clarify our policy. First came rank. Are members treated differently? You bet they are. Someone who has been around a long time and done much for the operation simply has more presence, more license, than any tourist just flitting by. (In fact, I'm glad to see that premise clearly stated by the list-manager's list manager; if a stranger had wandered in with a topical book for sale, I suspect I would have had no need to start this discussion.) I agree the policy of this unit is reasonable and proper for my own concerns as well. I don't number myself among the attack-dog atavists I've read here; on NerdNosh, an author might clearly detail her publishing history if she likes. And the Nosh itself has been reproduced in print, and we've gleefully pointed that out. Writing is what we do, and there is no jihad against the almighty dollar on the Nosh. Sex in Taxis? tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 28 18:03:52 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA11724; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from green.syncronym.org (green.syncronym.org [216.118.17.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 811EF17E8B for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 97368 invoked from network); 28 Sep 2000 23:35:14 -0000 Received: from citadel.in.taronga.com (10.0.0.43) by 10.1.1.2 with SMTP; 28 Sep 2000 23:35:14 -0000 Received: by citadel.in.taronga.com (Postfix, from userid 101) id 5CBBF413D7; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:35:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Mailshell To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:35:14 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000928233514.5CBBF413D7@citadel.in.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anyone know anything about Mailshell? (www.mailshell.com). I just ran across it and it has me a bit confused as to what it's about, how it works. It appears to be another one of these "we'll s*bscr*be/uns*bscr*be for you" mailing list portals. Their hook is "protect your personal info from these mailing lists." I guess that's what I think is the odd part, I am a legitimate mailing list owner, people don't need to protect themselves from me and I don't want them doing so or thinking they need to do so. I'm certainly not a potential source of junk mail like they're implying (unless I'm interpreting this site wrong). I see some lists I recognize (Lockernome, A.Word.A.Day, Truth or Tabloid) and lots of big name commercially hosted lists (About.com, MSNBC, CDNet, CNN, Sony, imdb, etc) but nothing on corresponding sites about Mailshell. Some archived material presented as "view samples of list before s*bscr*bing". Anyone know about them? Are they good guys? Clueful? Clueless? From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 29 00:51:18 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA17040; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.vnet.net (smtp1.vnet.net [166.82.1.31]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32EE417E8B for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp1.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e8T7i2s03775 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 03:44:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA02071 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 03:44:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 03:44:02 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: value to the members / shoes for industry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > At 10:38 AM -0400 9/28/00, Dave Sill wrote: > > >And why do people debate? To convince others to adopt their > >beliefs. > > sometimes I'm convinced it's because they like hearing their > own voice. Some people debate to flatter themselves and most people debate to persuade. On the other hand, if you're not listening to the other person's arguments, you're not learning their ideas. If you don't defend your own ideas in the light of criticism by others, your ideas haven't been tested and refined. There's more to debate that mere salesmanship and vanity. - murr - From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 29 08:53:07 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA17878; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.myfree.com (unknown [198.78.176.251]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF1017E8B for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stuart1 [64.64.243.12] by mail.myfree.com (SMTPD32-6.03) id A10117AF013A; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:02:41 -0400 Reply-To: From: "Stuart Hochwert" To: Subject: RE: List-Managers-Digest V9 #141 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:55:11 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200009290800.BAA17473@honor.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We have a consumer viral book that we use on our site. We can license the book to other sites for free. You can see it in action at: http://asp.myfree.com/tellafriend/index.asp The book is sold nationally at Borders, Barnes & Noble, Amazon and catalogers. ------------------------------------------ Stuart Hochwert shochwert@myfree.com MyFree.com, Inc. 3400 Dundee Road, Suite 236 Northbrook, IL 60062 847-205-9320 Main 847-205-9340 Fax 238th Most Visited Web Property (PC Data Online, 08/00) Over 2,500,000 opt-in newsletter subscribers www.myfree.com From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 29 11:29:44 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA02822; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ripco.com (pop2a.ripco.com [209.100.227.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2367B17E8B for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by ripco.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8TIPrD27502 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:25:53 -0500 (CDT) From: "David W. Tamkin" Message-Id: <200009291825.e8TIPrD27502@ripco.com> Subject: Re: value to the members / shoes for industry Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:25:52 -0500 (CDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <39D355D3.15550.728706@localhost> from "Alan S. Harrell" at Sep 28, 2000 02:29:39 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk When Davis Sill wrote, S> And why do people debate? To convince others to adopt their beliefs. Chuq Von Rospach responded, V> sometimes I'm convinced it's because they like hearing their own voice. and Alan Harrell followed up. A> Absolutely. Truly the mark of a great listowner. That's why we're known as listmoms; our members see us as mother figures. If you do your job well they'll tell you regularly just how much of a mother figure you are, although in their enthusiasm they often mistype it.