From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 4 11:06:39 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA14637; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 11:03:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgmail.morino.org (mgmail.morino.org [63.84.48.135]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BFEF17E8B for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 11:02:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from marnowitz (63.84.48.159 [63.84.48.159]) by mgmail.morino.org with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id DTW81PX5; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 13:59:45 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Mitch Arnowitz" To: Subject: Adding weekly digest to e-mail list Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 14:02:59 -0500 Message-ID: <000701c08edd$1709aac0$140110ac@morino.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200101300900.BAA11339@honor.greatcircle.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all-- I am considering adding a weekly digest to my list. Does anyone have an example or pointer of a weekly digest for an unmoderated e-mail list? A moderated list weekly digest pointer is also appreciated. Thanks! Mitch _______________________________________ Mitch Arnowitz mailto:mitch@netpreneur.org Morino Institute Netpreneur 11600 Sunrise Valley Dr., Reston, VA 20191 (o) 703.648.3923 | (f) 703.648.3939 www.morino.org | www.netpreneur.org "An entrepreneurial venture of the Morino Institute" _______________________________________ From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 4 12:06:43 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA15045; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 11:56:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgmail.morino.org (mgmail.morino.org [63.84.48.135]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DCCF17E8B for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 11:56:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from marnowitz (63.84.48.159 [63.84.48.159]) by mgmail.morino.org with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id DTW81PZP; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 14:52:54 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Mitch Arnowitz" To: Subject: REVISED: Adding weekly SUMMARY to e-mail list Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 14:56:07 -0500 Message-ID: <000e01c08ee4$837451e0$140110ac@morino.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am considering adding a weekly summary to my list. Does anyone have an example or pointer of a weekly summary for an unmoderated e-mail list? A moderated list weekly summary pointer is also appreciated. Thanks! Mitch _______________________________________ Mitch Arnowitz mailto:mitch@netpreneur.org Morino Institute Netpreneur 11600 Sunrise Valley Dr., Reston, VA 20191 (o) 703.648.3923 | (f) 703.648.3939 www.morino.org | www.netpreneur.org "An entrepreneurial venture of the Morino Institute" _______________________________________ From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 06:16:01 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA01720; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 05:57:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from amys-answers.com (unknown [206.53.239.113]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974AE17EAE for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 05:56:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from famroom [206.53.239.126] by amys-answers.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A37665770446; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 08:53:58 -0500 From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:56:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: What happened? Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com Message-ID: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hey, I joined this list around 6 years ago and found it a wealth of information regarding list management. I left for a time. I won't get into why, but now I'm back and have been for several months. Why is it so dead here? Aren't there MORE lists now? You'd think this place would be pretty busy. Amy From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 08:48:04 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA03150; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:25:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9784D17EAE for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:25:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14QXPH-0007PJ-00; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 08:25:23 -0800 To: amys@amys-answers.com Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message from "Amy Stinson" of "Wed, 07 Feb 2001 08:56:51 EST." <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> References: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 08:25:23 -0800 Message-ID: <28474.981563123@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:56:51 -0500 Amy Stinson wrote: > Why is it so dead here? Aren't there MORE lists now? You'd think > this place would be pretty busy. While I can't comment on past traffic, the apparancy from here is that while there are more lists and list moderators, yes, at the sme time the average level of clue among list moderators has not only fallen severely over recent years, but the awareness that they need clue has dropped as well. Not only in the dark, but blind. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 11:02:29 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA04495; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:37:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.ppnne.com (unknown [206.156.153.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8EB617EC1 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by MAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:27:49 -0500 Message-ID: <07C0768A99F6D311B40200C00D0079411BDCC7@MAIL> From: Sarah Standiford To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: RE: What happened? Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:27:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --You wrote "the average level of clue among list moderators has not only fallen severely over recent years, but the awareness that they need clue has dropped as well." Good point. And I think that pretty much goes for every d---n thing in the US these days. However as someone who is not very skilled in list management--but who is doing it out of necessity (and a basic distrust of 'egroups' et al)-- one thing that would be helpful on this list would be to remember that not everyone understands the jargon....so simplify where possible to encourage a broader number of conversationists. thanks Sarah From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 15:32:22 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA07471; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:09:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from amys-answers.com (unknown [206.53.239.113]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9831E17EBE for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from famroom [206.53.239.126] by amys-answers.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A4D81C2A0428; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 18:06:00 -0500 From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:08:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: What happened? Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com Message-ID: <3A818F36.19382.2AA908@localhost> In-reply-to: <07C0768A99F6D311B40200C00D0079411BDCC7@MAIL> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 7 Feb 2001, at 13:27, Sarah Standiford wrote: > However as someone who is not very skilled in list > management--but who is doing it out of necessity (and a basic distrust of > 'egroups' et al)-- one thing that would be helpful on this list would be to > remember that not everyone understands the jargon....so simplify where > possible to encourage a broader number of conversationists. A couple of questions: Why do you have a basic mistrust of egroups (now yahoo) and what jargon would you like to understand? Amy http://www.listhost.com/archives/machknit.html http://www.machine-knit.com From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 18:02:33 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA08946; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:36:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D8DF117EBE for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:36:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa02822 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 07 Feb 01 17:20:36 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: What happened? From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 17:17:45 PST In-Reply-To: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Amy Stinson writes: > Why is it so dead here? Aren't there MORE lists now? You'd think > this place would be pretty busy. There are hundreds of thousands of lists, but the huge majority are run by corporations like eGroups, where for the "listowner" it's like playing captain aboard a Disneyland pirate ship. I think while you were gone, all the possible problems for the rest of us were solved finally and utterly right here. You shoulda been here. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 19:17:35 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA09656; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:53:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A35617EC4 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:53:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f182rlA11797 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:53:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA24778 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:53:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:53:46 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: RE: What happened? In-Reply-To: <07C0768A99F6D311B40200C00D0079411BDCC7@MAIL> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Sarah Standiford wrote: > --You wrote "the average level of clue among list moderators > has not only fallen severely over recent years, but the > awareness that they need clue has dropped as well." > > Good point. And I think that pretty much goes for every d---n > thing in the US these days. Why so much pessimism about new and unskilled list admins? We all had to learn the ropes once. I don't begrudge anyone who's willing to try... I've helped start about a half dozen spin-offs from one list that I run. In my humble opinion, small specialty topics are one of the things mailing lists handle very well. - murr - From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 21:46:46 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA11468; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D90FA17EC4 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:34:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f185T7j31474; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:29:07 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:34:07 -0800 Subject: Re: What happened? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/7/01 5:56 AM, "Amy Stinson" wrote: > Why is it so dead here? Aren't there MORE lists now? You'd think > this place would be pretty busy. It's dead for lots of reasons. Here's my take on things... First, the list has been on auto-pilot for basically forever. There's very little management, and as far as I can tell, no marketing or any attempt to make the list known to the outside world -- so while there are zillions of new lists and list managers out there, why should they know of the existance of the list and why should they come here instead of other resources that ARE attempting to attract their attention? Unless you hear about list-managers by word of mouth, you don't hear about it. And even if you do, why should someone who doesn't already know the list come to it? It's basically a ghost list -- the net grew up, and the list just hung out in an eddy and got left behind. Second -- the list isn't terribly open to newcomers. I've seen a good number of people come around this place to ask for help and get variations of the "what a stupid question, why are you wasting our time?" response. A great introduction to new users looking for places that are resources as they learn this stuff. Third -- this list isn't a good place to be unless you stick to what certain members consider appropriate attitudes and policies. Anything they consider inappropriate gets badgered and bludgeoned into oblivion, which makes it very hard to discuss emerging issues and practices, unless they happen to match their view of how stuff ought to be run. This place is a ghost town -- it's sitting here, slowly rotting in the deserve, because nobody manages it, nobody's attempted to make it a place people want to be, nobody's attempted to make it a place people CAN find, and if they do happen to find it, they'll as likely be greeted with silence or a rude attack as actually have their questions answered. There's no fresh blood, no new ideas, and no tolerance of either. So it's the same 12 old pharts (myself included) who occasionally wake up from the mid-afternoon nap to re-enact last Tuesday's argument again. Except I gave up and just don't bother any more, since I have arguments on both sides memorized, so I don't need to actually have the argument any more... On 2/7/01 8:25 AM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: > time the average level of clue among list moderators has not only > fallen severely over recent years, but the awareness that they need > clue has dropped as well. Not only in the dark, but blind. And who's taken a lead to teach these people how to be admins? And if nobody's setting up systems to teach them and convincing them that it's in their best interest to learn -- why should they? This place is the hermit on the mountain, somehow expecting everyone down in the valley to know to come up here for instruction, but nobody's gone down into the valley in so long the villages don't even hear rumors of the hermits any more... > Why so much pessimism about new and unskilled list admins? We > all had to learn the ropes once. I don't begrudge anyone who's > willing to try... I've helped start about a half dozen spin-offs > from one list that I run. In my humble opinion, small specialty > topics are one of the things mailing lists handle very well. Way to go, Murr. (and while Murr and I don't agree on a lot, I'm saying that in all sincerity). I try to do the same. I'd like to do more, and if I ever have free time again, I will (I have things I want to do along this line, since it's clear list-managers never will -- but I've also realized doing it badly is worse than doing nothing at all, so it's on hold until I have the time and resources to do something I won't be embarrassed by). I really wish list-managers was an active, vibrant group, taking new admins by the hand, leading by example, and blazing new trails as the whole e-mail universe morphs around us. But this list hasn't shown any interest in new techniques or technologies, hasn't shown any tolerance of newbies, and isn't really interested in doing much of anything -- which is fine. I'm not saying it should be different than it is. But it's too bad that, given the knowledgebase of people here, we aren't more actively attempting to evangelize "how it ought to be" to those that are receptive to learning. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Love is the process of my leading you gently back to yourself. - Saint Exupery From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 00:47:48 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA13411; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 00:31:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ulys.kiev.ua (ulys.kiev.ua [217.25.193.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E3217EC4 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 00:31:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nazarok (nazarok.ulys.kiev.ua [217.25.193.51]) by ulys.kiev.ua (/) with ESMTP id f188U6529470 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:30:07 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from nazarok@ulys.kiev.ua) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:32:07 +0200 From: nazarok X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.47 Halloween Edition) Personal Reply-To: nazarok Organization: ULYS Systems X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1373884105.20010208103207@ulys.kiev.ua> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What happened? In-reply-To: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> References: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello Amy, Wednesday, February 07, 2001, 3:56:51 PM, you wrote: AS> Hey, AS> I joined this list around 6 years ago and found it a wealth of AS> information regarding list management. I left for a time. I won't AS> get into why, but now I'm back and have been for several months. AS> Why is it so dead here? Aren't there MORE lists now? You'd think AS> this place would be pretty busy. AS> Amy I am newby to this list but I'll say a couple of things. Last week I've subscribed to two lists - this one and majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM What I can say is that people post to majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM many messages every day while this list shows some activity only during current discussion. In last 10 days I received only 11 messages from this list snd 133 messages from majordomo-users. I can't say it's difficult to find how to subscribe to this list - as for it's rather simply - I've just visited official site of the Majordomo and found these lists. I thought that this list for "guru" while majordomo-users for ordinar admins. So if I have some questions I'd rather post it to that list. P.S. Sorry for my bad English - one more reason to keep silence :) -- Best regards, Nazarok Yuriy ULYS Systems mailto:nazarok@ulys.kiev.ua From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 05:18:22 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id EAA19133; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 04:56:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from amys-answers.com (unknown [206.53.239.113]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A07B117EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 04:56:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from famroom [206.53.239.126] by amys-answers.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A6CF30CB0440; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 07:53:35 -0500 From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: List-Managers Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:56:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: What happened? Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com Message-ID: <3A825131.27047.3208C5C@localhost> In-reply-to: References: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 7 Feb 2001, at 21:34, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > It's dead for lots of reasons. Here's my take on things... Aww Chuq, tell us what you *really* think. The one time (back then) I responded to you privately, my address had been blocked from your site (at least that was the message I received). I won't make that mistake again. I left originally because the discussion had gotten way off track when a certain someone came aboard and essentially took over the discussion. Much had nothing to do with actual list management issues, only with his issues. I seem to recall the list underwent moderation for a time, but while *some* people's emails went through rather quickly, others (such as mine) were delayed. I said 'nuf and moved on. I got wind of this list because of Rob Novak (you still here?) who pointed me in this direction because I wanted to be a responsible list owner. I've run lists using LISTPROC, majordomo, Smart list (is that still around?) and LISTSERV. I currently run a list hosting site called LISTHOST.com (not to be confused with LISTHOST.net) out of my home using a 128k connection. I've looked at Lyris, but have shied away for 3 reasons: 1. Needs at least 128k of bandwidth 2. Their web message interface and searching is non-intuitive 3. It doesn't offer the ability to send many digests over the course of the day, which would affect over 500 of my digest subscribers on AOL. It would be paradise when LISTSERV classic would become affordable to those of us who don't have deep pockets. Currently, my basic costs to run the lists are close to 5k per year. I've stayed away from Yahoo/Egroups because I don't have a lot of faith in the business model and I have a basic distrust of their privacy policy. This is based upon creating a username, subscribing it to a list on Egroups after taking all the precautions to not get spam, and promptly being spammed. My problems running the lists are largely centered around copyright issues (because people seem to think my archives can be freely distributed) and education of the list members. I have learned there are lots of different ways to manage a list, but my main focus is to make the content a resource and available to all. Have a nice day. Amy Amy ----- Amy Stinson Visit the Machine Knitting Internet Resource http://www.machine-knit.com MACHKNIT-SUBSCRIBE-REQUEST@LISTHOST.COM From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 05:47:28 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA19501; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 05:34:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from stmpy-2.cais.net (stmpy-2.cais.net [205.252.14.72]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068D017EC4 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 05:34:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from newnt.cais.com ([198.69.129.60]) by stmpy-2.cais.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f18DYrv61213 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:34:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010208083604.02245a90@pop.cais.com> X-Sender: firschng@pop.cais.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:39:12 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dorothy Firsching Subject: Discussions about this list In-Reply-To: <200102080900.BAA13767@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hey, quit the griping. This list has some great minds on it. It is one of the lists I continue to take a look at, and I have gotten answers on occasion when I needed them. The traffic is manageable. It's OK for it not to overwhelm us. I have several other lists I can't even keep up with. Just my $.02. Dorothy From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 06:32:54 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA19890; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.ppnne.com (unknown [206.156.153.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EFB317EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:14:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by MAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:04:29 -0500 Message-ID: <07C0768A99F6D311B40200C00D0079411BDCDC@MAIL> From: Sarah Standiford To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: FW: What happened? Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:04:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You wrote: "A couple of questions: Why do you have a basic mistrust of egroups (now yahoo) and what jargon would you like to understand?" Amy --i'm concerned that services like egroups/yahoo, while performing an important function in making list management more accessible, continues the process of draining knowledge away from people who would otherwise be managing lists more directly. Given the option of working through a large profit making entity, or directly with the software, I;ll take the latter. The pirate ship analogy works for me. Re: jargon. I couldn't name it. i didn't understand it at the time. But i think this was a more general comment about the accessibilty of this list to new people (which Nazarok stated well). As a newcomer, I'll keep you posted. And make it my responsibility to speak up when there's clarification that would be helpful for me-as i should have done at the time anyway. and... "Why so much pessimism about new and unskilled list admins?" --I'm not pessismistic about the unskilled list adminstrators. I am one. I'm pessismistic about the fact that people are less likely to learn new skills (programming, list managing , and non-computer related skills) now than even just a few years ago. This is my unresearched, non-statisticly supported opinion (which is likely irrelevant to the function of this list). But I dare you to challenge it. Sarah From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 06:47:36 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA20059; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:32:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E9917EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from inspiron7000.gurus.com (max1-6.shoreham.net [208.144.253.10]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA08419 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:31:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208091723.00bcb6e0@imap.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@imap.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:21:08 -0500 To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: RE: What happened? In-Reply-To: References: <07C0768A99F6D311B40200C00D0079411BDCC7@MAIL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > --You wrote "the average level of clue among list moderators > > has not only fallen severely over recent years, but the > > awareness that they need clue has dropped as well." The same thing has happened with list management that has happened in other parts of Internet usage -- we moved from a small cadre of computer-savvy, relatively experienced folks to a cross-section of humanity. Remember when AOL connected to the Net and unleashed AOLers on Usenet newsgroups? Much moaning and groaning about the declining level of users ensued. (And it was true.) But there's an upside -- people like your grandmother and now participating in and running lists. Okay, so they need a lot of education. But it's a cool thing that they're here! The question is my mind is: how do we make lists work for Joe Sixpack List Manager? I hate for commercial places like Yahoo Groups to be the only place that works for new users. Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 07:02:24 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA19871; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:12:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567E317EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:12:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl_120w70 [151.202.20.126]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f18EBuu17700 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:11:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:10:40 -0500 From: Tom Neff To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: wo'hoppen? Message-ID: <2370897230.981623440@[192.168.1.101]> In-Reply-To: <200102080900.BAA13767@honor.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.6 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I loved reading the different responses, it's like a cross section of the attitudes a working manager sees on her or his lists. (My favorite was Chuq's "this list is a rotting sinkhole," etc, because I just had a troublemaker use the same kind of line on a very healthy list... it's a reminder that while we may be in charge Out There, we're just members here, and member perceptions can be strong and weird! Personally I think we're a spring-fresh fragrant sinkhole...) The primary reason Majordomo@Greatcircle is a blizzard of activity compared to this one is that Majordomo has a blizzard of problems, bugs and issues guaranteed to give you something to talk about. The secondary reason is that there's an active mechanism pointing new and upgrading Mj admins to join that list, so it stays perkin'. Paradoxically, because this list isn't "marketed" or widely advertised, you have to be in possession of something like a clue to find and join it, therefore it is not flooded with misdirected, peabrain or irrelevant postings. Almost everybody here is too busy running lists to play children's games or otherwise waste energy. We come here when there's a real problem or issue, we deal, we get back to work. There is a misconception that if a list isn't constantly flowing with chitchat, it isn't working. That's true for "environment lists" like CoolKidsPlayhouse-L where the raison d'etre is just to have a bunch of people talking about stuff so that members don't feel lonely. It is not necessarily true for "topic lists" like RadioTelescopeRepair-L, which are often just one of a dozen lists each member is on, and which exist for a specific purpose. Someone's cryogenic receiver breaks, the call goes out and six experts give help, then all is quiet for a couple of weeks. That's perfectly natural, and those are the kind of lists where posting a cake recipe *will* get you flamed because overworked people *need to be able to be on that list without worrying about noise*. The culture clash on specialized lists is sometimes between people who are on several (or many) lists, and who just need each one to stick to its low-noise core topic so they can afford to read without going insane, versus people who just join that ONE list like it's their "club" and don't see why they shouldn't use it to talk about anything and everything. Neither approach is "wrong" but it can be hard for both kinds of members to co-exist. All of the above being said, there are probably list managers out there who could benefit from membership here and who don't know about us. One targeted way to reach the potential community would be to monitor NEW-LIST and send each new list's moderator an announcement about List-Managers, how to join etc. I bet the response rate would be quite high. We could also approach the maintainers of the Majordomo and Listserv home pages and see about getting the list mentioned somewhere in the web and downloaded README material. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 07:16:56 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA20299; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:56:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from msic.dia.mil (msic-450.msic.dia.mil [136.205.227.211]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E1817EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:56:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [136.205.227.85] (account allan HELO msic.dia.mil) by msic.dia.mil (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4b9) with ESMTP id 964008 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:58:00 -0600 Message-ID: <3A82B3E5.DD706AC@msic.dia.mil> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:57:41 -0600 From: Allan Newsome Reply-To: allan@msic.dia.mil X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What happened? References: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> <1373884105.20010208103207@ulys.kiev.ua> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One thing I've seen is that on this list, if you don't control the server with "majordomo" installed on it you're out of luck. In other words, if you have a host that provides the listserv for you.....it's hard to get help. I would think that there are several managers of lists that don't actually own the server but manage their list remotely. I run a majordomo list with about 1700 members and I'm hosted by 1-host.com who gives me access to their listserv. I do all the management by email and there have been times when I've asked a question and been made to feel less than a manager because I didn't have telnet access to my domo server. This list has not been very good for managers that are trying to learn how to manage because they are often treated like they shouldn't be asking questions and answers have been few and far between. That's my take. Allan From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 07:32:09 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA20307; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.oldradio.net (ns.oldradio.net [216.87.208.245]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9035117EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [24.104.7.214] (ip214.7.blca.blazenet.net [24.104.7.214]) by ns.oldradio.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09461; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:56:54 -0500 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Envelope-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200102080900.BAA13767@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:54:47 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: What happened? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:00 AM -0500 2/8/01, chuqui@plaidworks.com is rumored to have typed: > So it's the same 12 old > pharts (myself included) who occasionally wake up from the mid-afternoon nap > to re-enact last Tuesday's argument again. Interestingly put, as the best example of a series of messages all suggesting the same thing. So you are all telling me this is _not_ where I should be. Ok, anyone have a pointer to where I _should_ be? I usually wait longer than a week and a half to post, but here's the deal; I've been running mailing list servers for a lot of years, and subscribe to the support list of the server-du-jour (I'm currently using SmartList because I cannot _stand_ majordomo and cannot _afford_ listproc; I am looking a bit at mailman, though), but never bothered to join any admin-centric list. I learned initially how to be an admin by excellent example (I've been on some Internet mailing lists since I used a bitnet gateway to pull them into a college office on a Macintosh Plus) and error (my first lists were run without requiring subscription confirmation as the Net commercialized; there are bunches of others, but this was by far the worst). But with current trends on the Net, like eGroups and Topica turning anyone with a WebTV into list "admins" (sorry, kids, I don't consider them administrators any more than I consider a child a CEO just because he sits in his daddy's big chair), control-panel software that hosting companies are giving their customers that serves no purpose but to _keep_ them completely clueless, and companies like AOL 6.0 and MSN Companion not just defaulting but _forcing_ HTML-based email without giving their users a choice (causing ugly digests, rejected messages, subscriber heartache, and even a hard look at demime), a "real" list admin is facing challenges that have never been seen before. And it's apparent to me that only by concerted and concentrated effort do "real" list admins stand a chance of dealing with these issues, so I decided to seek out a list specifically for administrators; that's how I found this list, written about so respectfully in various places on the Net as one of the oldest and best. I wondered why things have been so light (three digest issues since 30 Jan)...now I know. Since it's apparent from the messages in the last digest issue that I'm regrettably in the wrong place, any chance someone clueful might point me in the right direction and tell me where I might find a list that _can_ help real list admins deal with the many modern challenges facing us? Charlie Summers From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 07:47:37 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA20788; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from dayspring.firedrake.org (dayspring.firedrake.org [195.82.105.251]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E014917EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from roger by dayspring.firedrake.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14Qsyq-0006Lh-00; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 15:27:32 +0000 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:27:32 +0000 From: Roger Burton West To: List-Managers Subject: Re: What happened? Message-ID: <20010208152732.A24143@firedrake.org> Mail-Followup-To: List-Managers References: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> <3A825131.27047.3208C5C@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A825131.27047.3208C5C@localhost>; from amys@amys-answers.com on Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 07:56:33AM -0500 X-Phase-Of-Moon: The Moon is Full X-Discordian-Date: Prickle-Prickle, Chaos 39 3167 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On or about Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 07:56:33AM -0500, Amy Stinson typed: >I've run lists using LISTPROC, majordomo, Smart list (is that still >around?) and LISTSERV. Yes, smartlist is very much still around! It's not undergoing especially active development, but it does very well for medium-sized lists that don't need built-in web interfaces. Roger From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 08:02:28 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA20782; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6237817EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:27:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from inspiron7000.gurus.com (max1-45.shoreham.net [208.144.253.49]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA22647 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:27:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208093438.00bd94f0@imap.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@imap.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:16:26 -0500 To: List-Managers From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: <3A825131.27047.3208C5C@localhost> References: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Another reason that this list has gotten quiet may be that there are a lot more lists for list managers than their used to be. Aside from lists to support specific software (LISTSERV, Majordomo, MailMan, Lyris, Yahoo/eGroups, etc.), I'm on: list-moderators@list-moderators.com (to join, join-list-moderators@list-moderators.com) onlinefacilitation@egroups.com (to join, onlinefacilitation-subscribe@egroups.com) - mainly about online teaching eModerators@egroups.com (to join, eModerators-subscribe@egroups.com) What makes this list different from these other lists? Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 08:17:38 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA20922; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:42:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3488717EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:42:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f18Falj10514; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:36:47 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 07:41:47 -0800 Subject: Re: What happened? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Margaret Levine Young , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208091723.00bcb6e0@imap.iecc.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/8/01 6:21 AM, "Margaret Levine Young" wrote: > The same thing has happened with list management that has happened in other > parts of Internet usage -- we moved from a small cadre of computer-savvy, > relatively experienced folks to a cross-section of humanity. > But there's an upside -- people like your grandmother and now participating > in and running lists. The priesthood is dead. That's a good thing. Egroups (now yahoogroups) is the online KOA campground for all this stuff, but that's not bad, either. People like to put it down, and it has its issues, but it enables a lot of people who can't afford a Hilton.... > Okay, so they need a lot of education. But who's stepped up to educate? That's the void I think Amy was commenting on, and it's a valid issue. List-managers isn't. > The question is my mind is: how do we make lists work for Joe Sixpack List > Manager? I hate for commercial places like Yahoo Groups to be the only > place that works for new users. The technological leap between yahoogroups and running your own is enough that maybe it's better that they do use yahoo -- but someone ought to be around to mentor them here, also... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Some days you're the dog, some days you're the hydrant. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 08:32:44 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA21409; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:18:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8397317EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:18:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from inspiron7000.gurus.com (max1-45.shoreham.net [208.144.253.49]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA04090; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:14:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208110354.00bc9950@imap.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@imap.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:05:01 -0500 To: Chuq Von Rospach , List-Managers From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208091723.00bcb6e0@imap.iecc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >The technological leap between yahoogroups and running your own is enough >that maybe it's better that they do use yahoo -- but someone ought to be >around to mentor them here, also... Chuq is right. I'm on the Listhelp list for egroups/yahoo managers, and in many cases it's the clueless leading the clueless. Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 08:47:59 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA21336; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:14:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1F217EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:14:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from inspiron7000.gurus.com (max1-45.shoreham.net [208.144.253.49]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA04106 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:14:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208110805.00bc8720@imap.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@imap.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:09:46 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: <3A82B3E5.DD706AC@msic.dia.mil> References: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> <1373884105.20010208103207@ulys.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >One thing I've seen is that on this list, if you don't control the >server with "majordomo" installed on it you're out of luck. In other >words, if you have a host that provides the listserv for you.....it's >hard to get help. Well, a list for *site managers* (the folks who run the list server software) might be useful but this list isn't supposed to be just for them. Also site managers usually need to get help from other folks who use the same software, so they are all on the software-specific lists, too. Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 09:02:24 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA21610; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:33:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13EF717EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f18GRfj11669; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:27:42 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:32:41 -0800 Subject: Re: wo'hoppen? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Tom Neff , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2370897230.981623440@[192.168.1.101]> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/8/01 6:10 AM, "Tom Neff" wrote: > (My favorite was Chuq's "this list is a rotting sinkhole," etc, No, not at all. If it was, I wouldn't be here. And while that occasionally is a tempting concept (and I'm sure a number of you would encourage it...), this place isn't a rotting sinkhole. Fixed in its ways is a better term. Maybe stagnant, but that's assigning an editorial value I'd rather avoid. > Paradoxically, because this list isn't "marketed" or widely advertised, you > have to be in possession of something like a clue to find and join it, > therefore it is not flooded with misdirected, peabrain or irrelevant > postings. Almost everybody here is too busy running lists to play > children's games or otherwise waste energy. We come here when there's a > real problem or issue, we deal, we get back to work. I guess it all comes down to what you want to be. This list doesn't want to take a leadership role in this stuff. That's fine -- but at times, the folks on this list then complain because stuff isn't run the way they want it run. If you want it run the way you think it ought to be run, go out and teach. But that's not what the list's interest is. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. 95% of being a net.god is sounding persuasive and convincing people you know what you're talking about, even when you're making it up as you go along. (chuq von rospach, 1992) From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 09:17:25 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA22011; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:01:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C6C17EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:00:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from inspiron7000.gurus.com (max2-75.shoreham.net [208.144.253.79] (may be forged)) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA16894 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:00:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208115457.00bcc7e0@imap.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@imap.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:55:20 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: References: <200102080900.BAA13767@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Charles, you're in the RIGHT place! Welcome! We're just crabby today... Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 09:32:30 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA22148; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:10:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E30F17EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:10:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14Qua4-0000PI-00; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:10:04 -0800 To: murr rhame Cc: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message from murr rhame of "Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:53:46 EST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:10:04 -0800 Message-ID: <1566.981652204@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:53:46 -0500 (EST) murr rhame wrote: > On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Sarah Standiford wrote: > Why so much pessimism about new and unskilled list admins? We all > had to learn the ropes once. I don't begrudge anyone who's > willing to try... I've helped start about a half dozen spin-offs > from one list that I run. In my humble opinion, small specialty > topics are one of the things mailing lists handle very well. I agree -- mailing list are especially well suited to SIGs. However historically list moderators tended to be people with Internet clue who were already accustomed to the RFC/research process and the ideas of collaborative standards development. That majority demographic is long gone and the new population does not have the same expectations. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 09:47:32 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA22354; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:27:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C050417EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from snoovler@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id JAA07262 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:27:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200102081727.JAA07262@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: <200102080900.BAA13767@honor.greatcircle.com> from List-Managers-Digest at "Feb 8, 1 01:00:43 am" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:27:10 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Fletcher Reply-To: markf@snoovler.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just to add my two cents... There are two great lists on eGroups/Yahoo Groups, emaillist-managers and listhelp. They are vibrant and full of people willing to help newcomers. Yes, they can be a bit eGroups-centric in some of their discussions, but with eGroups hosting well over a million lists now, I would think any general purpose list owner help list would have a lot of eGroups discussion. Check out: http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/emaillist-managers http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/listhelp Hope this helps. Mark From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 10:02:29 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA22362; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:28:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E80D17EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:28:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14QurV-0000lt-00; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:28:06 -0800 To: Charlie Summers Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message from Charlie Summers of "Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:54:47 EST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:28:05 -0800 Message-ID: <2967.981653285@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:54:47 -0500 Charlie Summers wrote: > Since it's apparent from the messages in the last digest issue > that I'm regrettably in the wrong place, any chance someone > clueful might point me in the right direction and tell me where I > might find a list that _can_ help real list admins deal with the > many modern challenges facing us? I've found the MLM-specific lists to be most useful for that (eg the Mailman lists). This fact has also prompted me to consider this list more as an alert/synchronising venue (ala NANOG for american ISPs) rathre than a place to find and engage in purposive discussion. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 10:17:36 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA22199; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E21917EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:14:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from NY110-19-024B.bloomberg.com (kula [160.43.2.2]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f18HEku22984 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:14:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 12:14:48 -0500 From: Tom Neff To: List-Managers Subject: Re: wazzzzzup? Message-ID: <576988875.981634488@NY110-19-024B.bloomberg.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0a2 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --On Thursday, February 08, 2001 8:32 AM -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/8/01 6:10 AM, "Tom Neff" wrote: >> (My favorite was Chuq's "this list is a rotting sinkhole," etc, > > No, not at all. If it was, I wouldn't be here. And while that occasionally > is a tempting concept (and I'm sure a number of you would encourage > it...), this place isn't a rotting sinkhole... I think that should be our official motto. "List-Managers@greatcircle: We're Not A Rotting Sinkhole!" >> Paradoxically, because this list isn't "marketed" or widely advertised, >> you have to be in possession of something like a clue to find and join >> it, therefore it is not flooded with misdirected, peabrain or irrelevant >> postings. Almost everybody here is too busy running lists to play >> children's games or otherwise waste energy. We come here when there's a >> real problem or issue, we deal, we get back to work. > > I guess it all comes down to what you want to be. This list doesn't want > to take a leadership role in this stuff. That, in turn, depends on how you define "this stuff." Reading on... > That's fine -- but at times, the > folks on this list then complain because stuff isn't run the way they > want it run. If you want it run the way you think it ought to be run, go > out and teach. But that's not what the list's interest is. If I read this right, it refers to the fact that we have relatively little patience for advocacy, sticking mostly to pragmatic advice and troubleshooting. It's true that we don't spend much time (or haven't lately) arguing how list software OUGHT to work, how list providers OUGHT to behave, etc. Some people just eat that stuff up, but I suspect that most of us have other stuff to worry about. This is List-Managers, not List-Dreamers or List-Activists or List-Philosophers, after all: what we really have in common is that there are lists to be run, work to be done. Again, I am not saying that the list is perfect today, but the areas I'd prefer to see improved are (a) penetration into the pool of working list managers, and (b) development of community resources that would make joining us more useful for more managers. I don't think that the existing roster needs to be more argumentative. I do think there is an opportunity for leadership through service and a wider sense of community. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 10:32:30 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA23062; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from tonnant.cnchost.com (tonnant.concentric.net [207.155.248.72]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687F017E8E for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:20:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (dsl-64-195-231-125.telocity.com [64.195.231.125]) by tonnant.cnchost.com id NAA10432; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:20:31 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010208101922.020f2070@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:20:50 -0800 To: allan@msic.dia.mil, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: JC Dill Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: <3A82B3E5.DD706AC@msic.dia.mil> References: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> <1373884105.20010208103207@ulys.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 06:57 AM 2/8/01, Allan Newsome wrote: >One thing I've seen is that on this list, if you don't control the >server with "majordomo" installed on it you're out of luck. In other >words, if you have a host that provides the listserv for you.....it's >hard to get help. I disagree. I've gotten quite a bit of help and I don't administer the servers that my lists are on, in one case I don't even have list administrator telnet access, only email access. I've just prefaced my requests for help with the appropriate background so that the people answering *know* what I can and can't do and can suggest appropriate solutions. jc From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 10:47:26 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA23096; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:24:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail07.rapidsite.net (mail07.rapidsite.net [207.158.192.51]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6E27517E8E for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:24:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.jadebox.com (207.158.243.143) by mail07.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.58s) with SMTP id 016353 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:24:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001601c091fb$bee1c5e0$4bbbf1d1@tacintel.com> From: "Roger Smith" To: "List-Managers" Subject: What happened? Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:19:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > The question is my mind is: how do we make lists work for Joe Sixpack List > Manager? I hate for commercial places like Yahoo Groups to be the only > place that works for new users. We make list management software that's easier to install and use and that doesn't require a dedicated server such as Arrow (http://www.jadebox.com/arrow/). Arrow's only for small lists (up to a few thousand subscribers), but that makes it appropriate for a lot of special interest groups such as families, clubs, etc. -- Roger From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 11:01:57 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA21903; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:58:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60DC917EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:58:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f18GwWO20769 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:58:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA22701 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:58:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:58:31 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Charlie Summers wrote: > Since it's apparent from the messages in the last digest > issue that I'm regrettably in the wrong place, any chance > someone clueful might point me in the right direction and > tell me where I might find a list that _can_ help real list > admins deal with the many modern challenges facing us? The list-moderators list at www.list-moderators.com is still pretty good. It has an active list admin and a fair number of experienced list wranglers are $ubscribed... It does get noise from people seeking tech support for eGroups. Otherwise, I enjoy it. Are there any other mailing lists that deal mainly with list policy and general list hygiene rather than how to configure my software? - murr - From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 11:02:24 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA22968; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:14:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.oldradio.net (ns.oldradio.net [216.87.208.245]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB06017EBC for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [24.104.7.214] (ip214.7.blca.blazenet.net [24.104.7.214]) by ns.oldradio.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11682; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:13:49 -0500 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Envelope-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2967.981653285@kanga.nu> References: Message from Charlie Summers of "Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:54:47 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:11:44 -0500 To: J C Lawrence From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: What happened? Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:28 PM -0500 2/8/01, J C Lawrence is rumored to have typed: > On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:54:47 -0500 > Charlie Summers wrote: > > > might find a list that _can_ help real list admins deal with the > > many modern challenges facing us? > > I've found the MLM-specific lists to be most useful for that (eg the > Mailman lists). Er...but doesn't that imply that the mailman lists are doing one thing, the lycos lists another, the SmartList lists yet another, the...the... That is _not_ what I came to this list looking for. I think what I'm suggesting is that there needs to be a concerted effort among list admins. Since this isn't the list for it, maybe there's another, more vibrant list somewhere else. (Didn't I hear at one time of a "LIST-MOM" list? I couldn't find anything about it in a non-through web search, but maybe that list or another I don't yet know of is where I should be.) Charlie Summers From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 11:17:32 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA23288; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:40:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FE8A17E8E for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:40:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14Qvzl-0000vT-00; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:40:41 -0800 To: Charlie Summers Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message from Charlie Summers of "Thu, 08 Feb 2001 13:11:44 EST." References: Message from Charlie Summers of "Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:54:47 EST." X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:40:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3561.981657640@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:11:44 -0500 Charlie Summers wrote: > At 12:28 PM -0500 2/8/01, J C Lawrence is rumored to have typed: >> On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:54:47 -0500 Charlie Summers >> wrote: >> I've found the MLM-specific lists to be most useful for that (eg >> the Mailman lists). > Er...but doesn't that imply that the mailman lists are doing one > thing, the lycos lists another, the SmartList lists yet another, > the...the... Yes, which is unfortunate. The other side however is that Mailman (in this case) has an active population of experience list admins using it who are willing to talk about list admin issues. Its not a frequent thing, but it pops up enough to be more than useful. Arguably it would be better were there a central/shared venue for this, but I've yet to find one that was not minimally a catastrophic victim of its own success (moderating a list is hard work, building and running a list for list moderators, who know all the games and rules, doubly so)... > That is _not_ what I came to this list looking for. I think what > I'm suggesting is that there needs to be a concerted effort among > list admins. Since this isn't the list for it, maybe there's > another, more vibrant list somewhere else. (Didn't I hear at one > time of a "LIST-MOM" list? I couldn't find anything about it in a > non-through web search, but maybe that list or another I don't yet > know of is where I should be.) I wish you luck in your search. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 11:32:35 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA22298; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AFEF17EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14Qukn-0005oB-00; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:21:09 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: amys@amys-answers.com, List-Managers Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:34:07 PST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:21:09 -0800 Message-ID: <22328.981652869@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:34:07 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/7/01 8:25 AM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: >> time the average level of clue among list moderators has not only >> fallen severely over recent years, but the awareness that they >> need clue has dropped as well. Not only in the dark, but blind. > And who's taken a lead to teach these people how to be admins? And > if nobody's setting up systems to teach them and convincing them > that it's in their best interest to learn -- why should they? This > place is the hermit on the mountain, somehow expecting everyone > down in the valley to know to come up here for instruction, but > nobody's gone down into the valley in so long the villages don't > even hear rumors of the hermits any more... I can't comment on this list -- I'm a new comer here as well. I'm inheriting its history. I have been a member of and active in several other list moderator lists, lists popularised and targetted for Egroups and Topica. My comments were written more about those lists and their member's stated expectations and behaviour than here. > I really wish list-managers was an active, vibrant group, taking > new admins by the hand, leading by example, and blazing new trails > as the whole e-mail universe morphs around us. But this list > hasn't shown any interest in new techniques or technologies, > hasn't shown any tolerance of newbies, and isn't really interested > in doing much of anything -- which is fine. I'm not saying it > should be different than it is. But it's too bad that, given the > knowledgebase of people here, we aren't more actively attempting > to evangelize "how it ought to be" to those that are receptive to > learning. Very true. Instead I find the old timers who would do that have either been worn out by endless assault or been turned into hermetic curmudgeons as they were outnumbered. Building and running such a list is a very possible thing to do. I did it for most of a year with the EGroups list owners list, watching membership grow and a pleasant culture of professional expectation build. It wasn't easy, and in the end I simply gave up under the endless onslaught of noise (the fact that the actual list owner had more of a mosh-pit/free-chat goal for the list didn't help). -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 11:47:40 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA23229; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:36:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from thunderer.cnchost.com (thunderer.concentric.net [207.155.252.72]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4837A17E8E for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (dsl-64-195-231-125.telocity.com [64.195.231.125]) by thunderer.cnchost.com id NAA04813; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:36:13 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010208095041.0210b020@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:18:43 -0800 To: Charlie Summers , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: JC Dill Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: References: <200102080900.BAA13767@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 06:54 AM 2/8/01, Charlie Summers wrote: > Since it's apparent from the messages in the last digest issue that I'm >regrettably in the wrong place, any chance someone clueful might point me in >the right direction and tell me where I might find a list that _can_ help >real list admins deal with the many modern challenges facing us? I don't think your conclusion is apparent at all. In fact, I think your conclusion is completely backwards. This list is exactly the right place for list policy questions that span all types of list, and we have had some wonderful threads on this topic since I joined (last August). This list is exactly the right place for "what list server should I use" questions. If you are already using a specific list server, then a list tailored to that software package is probably the best and appropriate place for specific questions about that software. But even then, don't expect every list software list to be busy, I'm on the "listmanager" software discussion list and it's damn quiet most of the time. This list is NOT the place to hang out and chitchat. I *love* this list. I've been mostly lurking for a while (received 213 messages, replied to 3 of them). This list goes in spurts, with lots of discussion then lots of quiet time simply because no one has posted anything that needs discussing. When I first joined, there were 2 posts that day, then 2 weeks with no posts at all. Then there was a thread of 6 posts in 3 days on a single topic. There was a single post (no followups) 4 days later, then quiet again for another 6 days. Then there was a sudden spurt, over 20 posts in 2 days (discussing the article at ). And so on. Quiet, then bursty traffic when there is something to discuss. (Like now :-) I would say that one "list rule" that is 100% applied to ALL lists is that one should never post and whine that there "isn't a plethora of other posts whizzing by that I can read and just lurk". That is just plain rude. You should never jump on a list and then complain to the list that the list doesn't meet some poorly defined need of yours, first because you might be 100% wrong about the list (because you haven't been patient enough to find out what the list is about) and second because the list is obviously meeting the needs of its present subscribers and users. If you need to have something answered, post and ask! Otherwise just be patient, and see what the list does, and watch and read and learn. Only after you have figured out how a list works (which is rarely something you can do after only a week or two) would you be in a sound position to discuss the meta issue of how the list works. jc (list manager for 2 years, presently managing a busy 1100 user ISP industry list on majordomo, a 500 user hobby list on majordomo, a 100 user geek humor list on listmanager, and about to take on a hobby list of ~500 novice users and migrate it to mailman, and start an industry list of ~125 advanced users also on mailman) From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 12:17:43 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA24187; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:56:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE4617E8E for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:56:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f18JpCj16085; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:51:13 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:56:11 -0800 Subject: Re: What happened? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Charlie Summers , J C Lawrence Cc: List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/8/01 10:11 AM, "Charlie Summers" wrote: > (Didn't I hear at one time of a "LIST-MOM" list? I couldn't > find anything about it in a non-through web search, but maybe that list or > another I don't yet know of is where I should be.) It's on skyweyr.com, and it's even deader than list-managers is. It wakes up very occasionally, but it's pretty dead. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. "When his IQ reaches 50, he should sell." From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 13:47:39 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA25272; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:27:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F09117EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id NAA09224; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:27:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:27:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200102082127.NAA09224@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: (message from murr rhame on Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:58:31 -0500 (EST)) Subject: Re: What happened? Reply-To: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:58:31 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame The list-moderators list at www.list-moderators.com is still pretty good. It has an active list admin and a fair number of experienced list wranglers are $ubscribed... It does get noise from people seeking tech support for eGroups. Otherwise, I enjoy it. Thanks for the tip. I just joined. I like Michael and this list but it used to meet my needs more than it does now. I've been a member for years. We used to talk more about list owner policy issues. I've posted several times on that topic to get discussion going (and to get advice) and not much has come from it, though I did get some good replies. There is a need for lists that discuss the tech end of mailing list software (a step removed from the software itself), but I don't do that myself, so... And, unfortunately, a lot of topics on this list start off interesting and degrade into flame wars (which may be interesting to some, but not to me). The one topic I find myself interested in now is majordomo. When bestserv went belly up last fall I ended up on a friend's server running md. I know that every time someone posts md questions here, others refer them instead to a md list. Of course I never saved the address because I wasn't using md then. Could someone please point me to the md list? If there's more than one, I'm looking for a place where I can ask questions like "how do I get the author's name or email to appear in the list of posts in a digest header along with the subject lines?" And more technical questions to pass on to my friend who is new to md as well, like "I get an endless loop when I use a forward from my domain to the real list address; I can remove it on a moderated list no problem but how do I get it to work on an unmoderated one?" (Of course, if anyone wants to answer the questions above, please feel free!) Thanks, Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com http://www.tikvah.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 14:17:28 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA25551; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:56:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB18717EBC for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lev@localhost) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA31873; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:56:06 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:56:05 -0500 (EST) From: Paul K- X-Sender: To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: , List-Managers Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: Will add a 2cents. Sorry for the non-snipped context. > On 2/7/01 5:56 AM, "Amy Stinson" wrote: > > > Why is it so dead here? Aren't there MORE lists now? > > > You'd think this place would be pretty busy. > > First, the list has been on auto-pilot for basically forever. There's > very little management, and as far as I can tell, no marketing or any > attempt to make the list known to the outside world -- so while there > are zillions of new lists and list managers out there, why should they > know of the existance of the list and why should they come here > instead of other resources that ARE attempting to attract their > attention? > > Unless you hear about list-managers by word of mouth, you don't hear > about it. And even if you do, why should someone who doesn't already > know the list come to it? It's basically a ghost list -- the net grew > up, and the list just hung out in an eddy and got left behind. I found out about the list by doing a Liszt-search. *Years* ago. I'm not bothered that there is extra-low traffic here now; I've always felt amply enriched by the discussions on various issues. The place *now* is not a rotting cave; the latter would be where spammers have taken over. > Second -- the list isn't terribly open to newcomers. I've seen a good > number of people come around this place to ask for help and get > variations of the "what a stupid question, why are you wasting our > time?" response. Somehow I sensed that I should not be asking questions until I knew more and until I had my goals more clearly defined. No problem there. > A great introduction to new users looking for places > that are resources as they learn this stuff. > > Third -- this list isn't a good place to be unless you stick to what > certain members consider appropriate attitudes and policies. Anything > they consider inappropriate gets badgered and bludgeoned into > oblivion, which makes it very hard to discuss emerging issues and > practices, unless they happen to match their view of how stuff ought > to be run. I figured I was learning here some of the manners of iNET. I observed how people treated each other and figured when I became a grown-up, so to speak, I'd follow the same. I've in the past enjoyed Chuq's posts. IMHO he is ranting today & expressing disappointment. I'm a amateur taking up the _con_ side of the debate. > This place is a ghost town -- it's sitting here, slowly rotting in the > deserve, because nobody manages it, nobody's attempted to make it a > place people want to be, nobody's attempted to make it a place people > CAN find, and if they do happen to find it, they'll as likely be > greeted with silence or a rude attack as actually have their questions > answered. There's no fresh blood, no new ideas, and no tolerance of > either. So it's the same 12 old pharts (myself included) who > occasionally wake up from the mid-afternoon nap to re-enact last > Tuesday's argument again. Except I gave up and just don't bother any > more, since I have arguments on both sides memorized, so I don't need > to actually have the argument any more... > > On 2/7/01 8:25 AM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: > > > time the average level of clue among list moderators has not only > > fallen severely over recent years, but the awareness that they need > > clue has dropped as well. Not only in the dark, but blind. I assume there is a need for moderators. Both amateur and semi-pro, as they say in tennis. _Besides the clumsy student._ I'm planning to be doing that sooner or later. I'm on a list which recently was moved from to , and the environment there is tacky. I don't know if there is a way to market groups for 1, 2, and 3$ per year however I expect to one day find out. Well.... > > And who's taken a lead to teach these people how to be admins? And if > nobody's setting up systems to teach them and convincing them that > it's in their best interest to learn -- why should they? This place is > the hermit on the mountain, somehow expecting everyone down in the > valley to know to come up here for instruction, but nobody's gone down > into the valley in so long the villages don't even hear rumors of the > hermits any more... > People unwilling to deal with a little elitism are gonna have a problem taking any more college courses. :) > > Why so much pessimism about new and unskilled list admins? We > > all had to learn the ropes once. I don't begrudge anyone who's > > willing to try... I've helped start about a half dozen spin-offs > > from one list that I run. In my humble opinion, small specialty > > topics are one of the things mailing lists handle very well. I'm happy to hear this. I hear so much, how good NewsGroups are, but I find the NG environment -- tech wise -- is less well-controlled. With lists, lost messages seem less of a constant hazard. Agreeing again. :) > Way to go, Murr. (and while Murr and I don't agree on a lot, I'm > saying that in all sincerity). I try to do the same. I'd like to do > more, and if I ever have free time again, I will (I have things I want > to do along this line, since it's clear list-managers never will -- > but I've also realized doing it badly is worse than doing nothing at > all, so it's on hold until I have the time and resources to do > something I won't be embarrassed by). > > I really wish list-managers was an active, vibrant group, taking new > admins by the hand, leading by example, and blazing new trails as the > whole e-mail universe morphs around us. But this list hasn't shown any > interest in new techniques or technologies, hasn't shown any tolerance > of newbies, and isn't really interested in doing much of anything -- > which is fine. I'm not saying it should be different than it is. But > it's too bad that, given the knowledgebase of people here, we aren't > more actively attempting to evangelize "how it ought to be" to those > that are receptive to learning. > > > -- > Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome > [ = = ] > Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. > Paul "I loathe people who keep dogs: they are cowards Bloomington, Ind who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves." -- A Strindberg > Love is the process of my leading you gently back to yourself. > - Saint Exupery > > > From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 18:09:56 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA28125; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:57:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B1E2A17EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:57:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa15088 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 08 Feb 01 16:51:43 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: RE: What happened? From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 16:38:31 PST In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208091723.00bcb6e0@imap.iecc.com> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Margaret Levine Young writes: > Remember when AOL connected to the Net and unleashed AOLers on Usenet > computer-savvy, newsgroups? Much moaning and groaning about the > declining level of users ensued. (And it was true.) This reminds me of the arguments we'd see on TV from quasi-concerned republican moralists some months back about how Clinton was unworthy to remain in the ranks of esteemed public servants....they meant his license to be a shyster. It was hilarious. I wonder if Usenet ever had this golden era. I don't know, I guess; I only came online in February 1987. What I found is that the archetypal bright male juvenille with poor social skills was inexact in one detail - he wasn't very bright. The Net back then was decidedly male, malevolent, and moronic, no matter they knew how to post articles properly. Believe me, the influx of other humans, meaning women and those who may not have been older than sixteen but at least acted it, was a very definite improvement. So they didn't always know how to cloverwrap refractive retro commands in sufflex sendmail Snedley cones, they gave a sense you were no longer in a junior high locker room. There is a great paragraph in Death In The Afternoon representing how the current is always shadowed by the past. You are very fortunate I don't have it in front of me right now. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 18:24:56 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA28126; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4825717EC4 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa15098 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 08 Feb 01 17:05:25 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: wo'hoppen? From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: <32mZ5F2w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 16:54:49 PST In-Reply-To: <2370897230.981623440@[192.168.1.101]> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Tom Neff writes: > I loved reading the different responses, it's like a cross section of the > attitudes a working manager sees on her or his lists. > > (My favorite was Chuq's "this list is a rotting sinkhole," etc, because I > just had a troublemaker use the same kind of line on a very healthy list... I've wanted to compare notes with other managers about types within the community. What Mr Neff describes I would recognize as the first stages of the Dying Swan Act. There are two natures to Dying Swan, and they are gender-based. One is male, and he says, "This organization is beneath my great capacity and overweaning talent!" - and waits around to be begged not to leave. The other sort will play victim: "Terrible Tommy has sorely aflicted me to the point I must tearfully leave your company." She also awaits the palm-patters. Another common character I call General Forest, after that Confederate cavalry officer's trick of running his troops in a circle past an opening up on a ridge while he was parlying with the enemy commander. One regiment of horse looks pretty much like another, and they look so much larger when you see them repeatedly as one point in a circle. General Forest always has a hidden ace up his spectral sleeve. She says, "Oh, I have many kind supportive E-mails, and they agree with my point utterly and totally, only they wish not to be named because they fear some vicious meanies here..." There are others. > The primary reason Majordomo@Greatcircle is a blizzard of activity compared > to this one is that Majordomo has a blizzard of problems, bugs and issues > guaranteed to give you something to talk about. The secondary reason is I was reading ahead: "...that anyone who dwells on Majordomo topics in here is toasted by several comradely curmudgeons who eagerly await just such an opportunity to show the malefactor the door to the other group." I sometimes fill in as I read. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 20:39:57 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA29677; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:35:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549CE17EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:35:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f194Tvj03002; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:29:57 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 20:34:58 -0800 Subject: Re: What happened? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Tim Bowden , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/8/01 4:38 PM, "Tim Bowden" wrote: >> Remember when AOL connected to the Net and unleashed AOLers on Usenet >> computer-savvy, newsgroups? Much moaning and groaning about the >> declining level of users ensued. (And it was true.) > I wonder if Usenet ever had this golden era. I don't know, I guess; Yeah. To some degree it still is -- every generation thinks life is great, and every previous generation thinks the new one screwed things up and the good old days were better. If you really care, there are some interesting links to some of the usenet-history mailing list archives available off of my home page (www.chuqui.com), since I was involved... > The Net back then was decidedly male, > malevolent, and moronic, no matter they knew how to post articles > properly. As opposed to what it is today... No, I won't go there. Other than to say a lot of what you see on the internet depends on what you put in and where you go looking. There are definitely areas of the net that agree with your definition, to generalize the net to BE that is a horrible overgeneralization. > Believe me, the influx of other humans, meaning women and those who may > not have been older than sixteen but at least acted it, was a very > definite improvement. They were always there. Maybe they just saw you coming and hid. (grin) -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 21:09:57 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA29851; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208CB17EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lev@localhost) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09562; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:54:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:54:14 -0500 (EST) From: Paul K- X-Sender: To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: List-Managers Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: [to M. Levine's] > > The question is my mind is: how do we make lists work for Joe Sixpack List > > Manager? I hate for commercial places like Yahoo Groups to be the only > > place that works for new users. > > The technological leap between yahoogroups and running your own is enough > that maybe it's better that they do use yahoo -- but someone ought to be > around to mentor them here, also... Is there not the issue also of some people wanting messages on a more reliable basis, and cleaner than yahoo can provide? Wherever I'm to learn my admin skills, I still think I can set a list up somewhere (as I've said, with a small amt $ being paid) which has a better look and is more reliable than these (small) turnkey freebies. -Paul > > -- > Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome > [ = = ] > Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. > > Some days you're the dog, some days you're the hydrant. Paul Bloomington, Ind To have doubted one's first principles is the mark of a civilized man. : - Oliver Wendell Holmes : :*nine_stories*,salinger=****........................................: From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 21:24:57 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA00167; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:11:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BD07317EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:11:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa01471 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 08 Feb 01 19:34:24 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Why are we here? From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 19:22:58 PST In-Reply-To: <3A82B3E5.DD706AC@msic.dia.mil> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Allan Newsome writes: > I would think that there are several managers of lists that don't > actually own the server but manage their list remotely. Here's another. > I run a majordomo list with about 1700 members and I'm hosted by > 1-host.com who gives me access to their listserv. I do all the > management by email and there have been times when I've asked a > question and been made to feel less than a manager because I didn't > have telnet access to my domo server. Oh, I have that. I just know very little about what to do when I'm there. > This list has not been very good for managers that are trying to learn > how to manage because they are often treated like they shouldn't be > asking questions and answers have been few and far between. I'm sorry, but this comment is misplaced, it should be routed to alt/listserv/nonserve/complaint. Joke. That's a joke. Do you know for a long time the prejudice of men against women drivers was based upon the perceived female lack of interest in changing sparkplugs and relining brakes? This was a firmly-held notion - except by insurance underwriters, who knew women were by any measure the better drivers by far, being primarily interested in arriving where they were headed and returning safely. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 21:39:57 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA00153; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:10:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF8417EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:10:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1955Fj03639; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:05:16 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:10:16 -0800 Subject: Re: What happened? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Paul K- Cc: , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/8/01 1:56 PM, "Paul K-" wrote: > Will add a 2cents. Sorry for the non-snipped context. And here's your change, sir... > I'm not > bothered that there is extra-low traffic here now; I've always felt > amply enriched by the discussions on various issues. The place *now* is > not a rotting cave; the latter would be where spammers have taken over. > I've in the past enjoyed Chuq's posts. IMHO he is ranting today & > expressing disappointment. And with these snippets, off I head towards left field, with the crowd in full chase.... Yes, I ranted earlier today -- and I'm sorry for that. It's what I felt had to be said, I don't think I said it particularly well. So I'll try again and see what happens. I *am* bothered by the low traffic here. The reason I'm bothered is that there is a huge body of knowledge and experience here, and I hate to see it laying fallow or going to waste. This is a huge period of innovation, growth and evolution in the e-mail world, and there are any number of people here that I think ought to be leading the way in this mainstreaming of e-mail on the net, and yet the list as a body, and most of the people on it, have basically opted out and are standing on the sidelines. This bothers and frustrates me, because this e-mail revolution is happening with or without them, and without them, it's that much harder to make sure it happens in good ways. The only thing that's sure is it's going to happen -- is happening, and frankly, at this point, mostly HAS happened. The major revolutions are done and settling in, and the next 18 months or so are evolutionary cleanup and enhancement, so it's sort of too late to be a major influence on anything. This list has been quick to gripe about stuff (especially things like eGroups) -- but slow to actually try to fix stuff, influence it, or try to build other things that are better. I've fought the fights I could fight, and won some of them, lost some of them. But it was never a winnable fight as one person. Which is one reason why this list got to listen to various rants over the last couple of years -- because the tidal wave was coming, and I really felt that the people on this list needed to be out there helping influencing, but the people here on the list simply weren't interested in getting involved. I tried to change that. In retrospect, I handled it badly. When I realized I was acting just like some of people that I was usually conflicting with here, and justifying it to myself with the "but god is on my side, so..." rationale, I shut the hell up about it all. The answer to "no" isn't to ask again louder, and basically that's what it turned into. My bad. Religious zealotry is bad, even if it's mine (especially if it's mine) This place -- on reflection -- is a lot like what was left of the old Usenet backbone cabal after the rebellion. Lots of knowledge that ought to be put to use; no motivation to use it, no real interest in having it used. And if I'd caught the similarities earlier, I'd have probably handled it differently. Knowledge isn't enough -- there has to be an energy behind it to make things happen, and the people on this list have all paid their dues in the trenches. I'll be the first to say that after a while you decide it's time to back off and pick your fights. I tried to force something I decided was my fight on everyone else and didn't take no gracefully. My bad. I think there were places things could have been influenced to good benefit. Now -- it's all water under the bridge. Maybe next time. So count me for a dollop of disappointment, a quart of frustration, but also a slab of realization that what I was expecting was unreasonable. Life moves on. I still hope to be able to influence how this all comes together down the road. I still think we need the people with a clue in there helping to make things go in the right direction. But instead of trying to imprint that on this list, I'm moving in other directions. When I'm ready to talk about those, I will -- and those that want to help can come join. That's how I should have handled it from the start, and in retrospect, I wasted a lot of time and effort (our time, our effort) because I didn't. Live and learn. Hopefully a little more explanation and a little less whine this time. >>> from one list that I run. In my humble opinion, small specialty >>> topics are one of the things mailing lists handle very well. > > I'm happy to hear this. I'm currently working on a piece on why mail lists suck for community work. But like all sweeping generalizations, it's an imperfect rant -- because that's a place where the mail list works wonderfully; as long as it stays small and focussed. Unfortunately, I think mail lists scale horribly, and so you end up with problems sooner or later -- but only if you succeed and grow your audience. If you suck or fail and stay small.. (grin) > I hear so much, how good NewsGroups are, but I > find the NG environment -- tech wise -- is less well-controlled. NNTP -- the technology -- is a great technology. USENET -- the nework built on NNTP -- sucks. But NNTP in a non-propogating or limited propogation system can be very powerful and useful. It depends on the implementation and administration. Chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. "He doesn't have ulcers, but he's a carrier." From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 22:53:43 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA00984; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:44:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from aloha.webkahuna.com (aloha.webkahuna.com [207.26.54.245]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C9617E8C for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:44:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from JANET (aux-209-217-59-63.oklahoma.net [209.217.59.63]) by aloha.webkahuna.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA07215; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:44:21 -0600 From: Janet Detter Margul To: Tim Bowden Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: wo'hoppen? Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:44:18 -0600 Organization: WeeBe Graphics Reply-To: janet@dm.net Message-ID: References: <2370897230.981623440@[192.168.1.101]> <32mZ5F2w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> In-Reply-To: <32mZ5F2w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Okay, this lurker will bite on that one. I see all the list personality types you mention, do you see my "need to organize" types? These are the ones who, well, I won't even speculate as to motivation, but need to keep Lists of Things. And they write me, as list-owner to ask if anyone keeps a list of (whatever) and if not, could they? Being the benevolent dictator I am, I always say "okay, you're now the official Member Birthday List Keeper" (or whatever, I think out of about a thousand on my list, there's probably 10 or more official list keepers of something). And they do it, periodically they post either their list or a portion of it or that members can write them to get a copy. And when they get sick of it, there are others wanting the honor of stepping in their shoes. It boggles me, but then again, I never see the need for a list in the first place. And if it keeps 'em happy, why not? Mail list titles are cheap. And don't we all have the list police, the ones who point out every waste of bandwidth/minor infraction (talk about a waste of space)?=20 And the list urban legend passer... and the list urban legend buster... and on and on and on and on... =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Janet Detter Margul | Real women don't have hot flashes... WeeBe Graphics Plano, Texas | they have power surges! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D See my jewelry at http://www.weebedazzled.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 03:23:52 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id DAA04963; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 03:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from lists.cap.gov (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63EDC17E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 03:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from tarsus.cisto.org (tarsus.cisto.org [151.196.211.15]) by lists.cap.gov (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B2571459C for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 03:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from quill.thinkcoach.com (root@pop-be-2-1-dialup-124.freesurf.ch [194.230.162.124]) by tarsus.cisto.org (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA09712 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:04:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.thinkcoach.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id LAA32213; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:58:45 +0100 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:58:45 +0100 Message-Id: <200102091058.LAA32213@quill.thinkcoach.com> X-Authentication-Warning: quill.thinkcoach.com: norbert set sender to nb@thinkcoach.com using -f From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: (message from Chuq Von Rospach on Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:10:16 -0800) Subject: how to make mail lists scale well References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I'm currently working on a piece on why mail lists suck for community work. > But like all sweeping generalizations, it's an imperfect rant -- because > that's a place where the mail list works wonderfully; as long as it stays > small and focussed. Unfortunately, I think mail lists scale horribly, and so > you end up with problems sooner or later -- but only if you succeed and grow > your audience. If you suck or fail and stay small.. (grin) Do you have ideas for addressing the scaling problems of large mailing lists? I've been thinking about this a lot, and the best idea that I've come up with is to use an edited ezine format for internet-based conversations that are intended to attract many participants. A live example of this idea (still in its early stages) is online at http://integrity-in-politics.com/ What do you think about this approach? Warm greetings, Norbert -- Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 nb@thinkcoach.com From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 04:08:56 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id DAA07235; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 03:56:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8884817EC8 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 03:56:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from memoria (pool0581.cvx6-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.160.71]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA01082 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 03:56:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20010209032947.00d1d2a0@alteria.com> X-Sender: alteria@alteria.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 03:53:10 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Alterian Corps of Reality Engineers Subject: Re: wo'hoppen? In-Reply-To: <200102090900.BAA02473@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Tim Bowden wrote: >There are others. This is off-topic, but I too am fascinated by the categorization of user types based on personality traits (due to my background in roleplaying games and the moderation of chat sites), and your characterization of General Forest was a good one. Hell, even if it's just done for the sake of our own private amusement, assigning nomenclature to user types is useful for many reasons, none the least of which is to remind us not to take anything they do *too* seriously. Along those lines, you might enjoy "A Netizen's Guide to Flame Warriors," an illustrated handbook by Mike Reed: http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame01.html LVX TF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- As If Productions http://www.asifproductions.com Interactive Worlds and Immersive Obsessions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 05:55:51 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA08335; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 05:50:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from amys-answers.com (unknown [206.53.239.113]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A4417E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 05:50:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from famroom [206.53.239.126] by amys-answers.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A4EB87B00428; Fri, 09 Feb 2001 08:47:23 -0500 From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:50:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com Message-ID: <3A83AF4E.6394.8785A70@localhost> In-reply-to: <200102091058.LAA32213@quill.thinkcoach.com> References: (message from Chuq Von Rospach on Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:10:16 -0800) X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9 Feb 2001, at 11:58, Norbert Bollow wrote: > Do you have ideas for addressing the scaling problems of large > mailing lists? That's been on my mind lately also. Once you get over 1000 members, a "give and take" forum gets mostly taken (IMO). List royalty emerges and true discourse is discouraged. I've seen it happen on my "main" list and we discuss machine knitting. I'd hate to see what would happen if it grows to 10,000 members (like it would ). Amy Amy ----- Amy Stinson Visit the Machine Knitting Internet Resource http://www.machine-knit.com MACHKNIT-SUBSCRIBE-REQUEST@LISTHOST.COM From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 06:08:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA08540; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from amys-answers.com (unknown [206.53.239.113]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A32317E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:05:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from famroom [206.53.239.126] by amys-answers.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A876375A0440; Fri, 09 Feb 2001 09:02:30 -0500 From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:05:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: wo'hoppen? Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com Message-ID: <3A83B2D9.16028.8863222@localhost> In-reply-to: <4.2.2.20010209032947.00d1d2a0@alteria.com> References: <200102090900.BAA02473@honor.greatcircle.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9 Feb 2001, at 3:53, Alterian Corps of Reality Eng wrote: > Along those lines, you might enjoy > "A Netizen's Guide to Flame Warriors," an illustrated handbook by Mike > Reed: http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame01.html Dang! He beat me to it. I send my listowners to this site as it really gives them insight to the various personalities that emerge on a list. Amy Amy ----- Amy Stinson Visit the Machine Knitting Internet Resource http://www.machine-knit.com MACHKNIT-SUBSCRIBE-REQUEST@LISTHOST.COM From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 06:23:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA08189; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 05:36:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.rev.net (mail.rev.net [206.67.68.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70CDF17E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 05:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from admin3 (admin3.rev.net [12.26.100.205]) by mail.rev.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f19Dagn05244 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:36:42 -0500 Message-Id: <200102091336.f19Dagn05244@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: List-Managers Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:36:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: What happened? Reply-To: bernie@fantasyfarm.com In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 8 Feb 01, at 20:34, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/8/01 4:38 PM, "Tim Bowden" wrote: > > >> Remember when AOL connected to the Net and unleashed AOLers on Usenet > >> computer-savvy, newsgroups? Much moaning and groaning about the > >> declining level of users ensued. (And it was true.) > > > I wonder if Usenet ever had this golden era. I don't know, I guess; > > Yeah. To some degree it still is -- every generation thinks life is great, > and every previous generation thinks the new one screwed things up and the > good old days were better. ... Indeed, yes. Remember when NSF first enabled schools to connect to the net willy-nilly, and was born the "September effect"? (of course, now the .edu folks are nearly the elder-statesmen and subsequent 'generations' have mutated that into "It's always september somewhere on the Internet"]. Over the life of the net, virtually EVERY wave of arrivals has tried to pull up the ladder behind them as they look in horror as the _next_ wave of arrivals apparently is spoiling it all... Only us'uns that have been on from the start are truly pure-of-heart..:o) /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 08:38:54 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA10062; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:30:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from one.elistx.com (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E754817EB8 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from two.elistx.com (two.elistx.com [209.116.254.209]) by eListX.com (PMDF V6.0-24 #44856) with ESMTP id <0G8I00AE10JLX8@eListX.com> for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 09 Feb 2001 11:30:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 11:32:45 -0500 (EST) From: James M Galvin Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well In-reply-to: <200102091058.LAA32213@quill.thinkcoach.com> X-Sender: galvin@two.elistx.com To: Norbert Bollow Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Do you have ideas for addressing the scaling problems of large mailing lists? You are referring only to discussion elists, right? Size shouldn't matter to newsletters, e-zines, or announcements. Moderation can help but it's frequently not practical. One thing I have found that sometimes works is moving to a digest-by-size or digest-by-time format. Digest-by-content is thinly veiled moderation. When you do it by size of the digest or frequency of digests it can be completely automated. What the digest brings is throttling of the message flow. Those who would "take over" an elist by getting the first, last, and as many words in the middle as they can are often discouraged by digests. Another suggestion that sometimes works is to spin off topic-based elists. Organizations that use email for communication with their customers/clients/participants use this very effectively. You keep the main elist but you change its charter/purpose to say its only for starting discussions and for discussions of short duration (you decide how long is too long). All other discussions get moved to a new elist to which those who wish to participate can and must join to do so. This does require an owner to be "paying attention" since you need to be able to easily create new elists and you need a process for shutting down elists when they are no longer needed. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Cure For What (M)ails You: From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 08:53:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA10272; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:48:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BD05317EB8 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:48:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa19164 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 8:48:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 09 Feb 01 08:15:57 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 08:01:01 PST In-Reply-To: <200102091058.LAA32213@quill.thinkcoach.com> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Norbert Bollow writes: > Do you have ideas for addressing the scaling problems of large > mailing lists? I would love some of those problems. I promise I will share and commisserate totally with all who face those many onerous troubles if you will but point me the way to achieve this large mailing list! To me, it sounds like how the boys around the Club complain of the many slinks and errors great wealth be heir to. "Oh, the taxes..." > I've been thinking about this a lot, and the best idea that I've > come up with is to use an edited ezine format for internet-based > conversations that are intended to attract many participants. Good idea. A lot of problems go away when the listowner can edit before production. Also, here's another discovery of ours which may not be universal. The best inducement to doing right is having a lot of it about. When NerdNosh was new and sloppy, all new members contributed to the slop. When we grew into a nest of accomplished writers who could play the game and play it well, then the fledglings endeavored to join this august troupe and are ever on their best behavior. Look at this very forum here. There are lots of experts with very sage advice, some of them a mite captious, and as a consequence I am the only one who regularly acts the complete fool. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 09:08:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA10277; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:49:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1133317EBB for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:48:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa19177 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 8:48:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 09 Feb 01 08:32:33 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Quo Vadis? From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 08:17:46 PST In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20010209032947.00d1d2a0@alteria.com> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk TF writes: > This is off-topic, but I too am fascinated by the categorization of user > types based on personality traits (due to my background in roleplaying > games and the moderation of chat sites), and your characterization of > General Forest was a good one. Thank you very much. The history of General Forest. Nathaniel Bedford was a very successful cavalry officer with the Confederacy. The trick was to hold parley with his adversary down in the canyon, while up along the ravine, his entire force would form a pinwheel and appear in a complete circle past one opening in the ridge several times over the course of the talks. The enemy captain would believe he was surreptitiously counting heads to gauge the strength of this hoosier before him and eventually would come to unfavorable terms for the yanks as the day wore on. The online version of this ploy I can remember from two separate forums very different in nature and years apart. One was a rather disturbed one of dubious credits and great exaggeration generally all about her, and she was discussing in a chat group which was formed as a meta-guidance council to a larger one. The other occasion was in the past year in a list for published authors of a proven success ratio. It decided me that the tools sometimes create the worker, not the other way around. That means, the advantages of anonymity will be grasped on by diverse persons. What the current General Forest is saying is, "I have lots of the craven and the cowardly in my corner!" General Forest, you may know, was an atrocious racist who committed one of the great crimes of his war, the slaughter of two hundreds of black soldier POWs at Ft Pillow. He went on to create the Ku Klux Klan. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 09:23:53 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA10271; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:48:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 10AC917E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:48:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa19156 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 8:48:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 09 Feb 01 07:59:15 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: wo'hoppen? From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: <3PP15F1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 06:50:01 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Janet Detter Margul writes: > Okay, this lurker will bite on that one. I see all the list > personality types you mention, do you see my "need to organize" types? I sure do...and here we diverge, I'm afraid. To me, the Need To Organize at least represents some level of commitment, some energy; they are awake, they have a pulse! I love 'em! I say, here, what can I do to help? I think a bigger gap exists between those of us who manage a list and those who are deeply involved in that list than even the gulch between Pro- and Anti-HTML. (Please understand I don't mean Janet Margul - I am so jazzed she wrote because it brings up an ingredient I have found lacking here; managing humans rather than simply software.) Some have massive forums and colossal contributions to them, and they see themselves as police chiefs; they are especially attentive to malefactors and their misdeeds. Others of us are very invested in the group we host on its own merits, and our question is, how can we slice out blots and mars without losing contributors? Some specialize in the tools, some are intent on the job. If I had an operation which featured background private interviews with Survivor castoffs, say, I would be poised at the door like the old Studio 54 capos. I don't have those numbers. I have just over four hundred (maybe that disqualifies me from even writing here) hardy souls in a gathering which requires more energy than the usual chat group. Consequently, I regularly deal with so-called abuses with more diplomacy than some suggestions I have seen here. > And don't we all have the list police, the ones who point out every > waste of bandwidth/minor infraction (talk about a waste of space)? I have one advantage in a digest; no abuses are allowed out into the mainstream. I can write privately to those who don't understand our premises. Also, as we are a collective of writers of journals, memoirs, diaries, there are no chat comments at all, and certainly no criticism of other writers. This avoids a whole lot of headache. The forums I remember with hordes of nitters comprised lots of adolescent males who were very insecure, and that's a prime feature of the critic combine. I think material weight can be figured pretty precisely in the irritant/response ratio. > And the list urban legend passer... and the list urban legend > buster... and on and on and on and on... I hate those. In fact, I was just reading in here, from Chug, I think, about the nature of online neighborhoods, and I keep evolving on that point myself. Once it was considered beneficial to be in touch with your subconscious, and there is a greater opportunity for that online, I think. If you agree to a chore or a duty in a physical setting, you are physically coerced into performing it, for your neighbors or colleagues will be in your face daily. But online, you are incorporeal as a soul, and may flit about as you list (to coin a phrase). You see many scraps and insults online which would not occur in public (the list I formed for my high school class was very instructive on the nature of gatherings - we were famous friends when we met in public and so proud we had overcome those legendary underhanded connivings and jealousies which had rended us so long ago - however, the online list blew up over underhanded connivings and jealousies) and you eventually end up with the idea that all morality is based upon the self-interest of anyone in a social setting - I want to appear to my own advantage, and if I have no appearance, then I have also no restraints. That's one item I do insist upon. I don't care to host any list which allows netbilge. It's like visiting someone and they keep the damn TV blaring the whole time you are there. If you didn't write it, I tell them, then we've already seen it elsewhere, and don't need it here. Thanks for writing, Janet. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 09:38:54 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA10730; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:32:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B641617EB8 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:32:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa23874 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 9:32:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 09 Feb 01 09:17:43 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Quo Vadis? From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 09:08:22 PST In-Reply-To: <200102091336.f19Dagn05244@mail.rev.net> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bernie Cosell writes: > Over the life of the net, virtually EVERY wave of arrivals has tried > to pull up the ladder behind them as they look in horror as the > _next_ wave of arrivals apparently is spoiling it all... Human history, online and off. When I first arrived in California from Texas, I had the honor of guidance and advice from one who was living in Santa Monica. How to meld with the beach culture in the sixties. These are some sorts here, she said, and there are others there, and here's how you behave around them all. She had been there for two months from Odessa. I have seen communities up in arms over Development. Oh, they are bringing the 'dozers right past my house, the poor deer who feed in our orchard, whatever is to become of them? Their house is a subdivision carved above other neighborhoods in the hills of El Paso, Dannville, anywhere, and the developers are quite naturally still lookin' for a home, lots of them, at premium prices, and that means further up the hillside, and those who slashed and burned for their vantage point are environmentalists now, resenting someone up the hill with a more prominent view. Where I live now, there are constant squeals of protest about all the traffic and noise and our quaint little environment is converting into a sick polluted metropolis - which they know well, because they just arrived last year in a motorhome with their six kids from LA. Hey, buddies, can you spare a thousand or so members from your polluted lists? tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 10:24:29 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA11135; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:09:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7241D17E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f19I3Yj19444; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:03:34 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:08:35 -0800 Subject: Re: wo'hoppen? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: , Tim Bowden Cc: List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/8/01 10:44 PM, "Janet Detter Margul" wrote: > Okay, this lurker will bite on that one. I see all the list > personality types you mention, do you see my "need to organize" types? Depends on the list subject, I think but yes, they're there. In general, I think they should be encouraged -- volunteerism ought to be encouraged as much as possible. Even if you think it's silly or trivial, the results might surprise you, and it might give you an opportunity to shift them into something else with "higher responsibility" later. > These are the ones who, well, I won't even speculate as to motivation, > but need to keep Lists of Things. Much of the time it's simply a case of wanting to help (a pay-back or pay-forward) and they tend to not be technical, so they see it as one of the ways they can help. Volunteerism is good. I wish I promoted it on my stuff as much as I think it ought to be (don't do what I do, do what I say... Grumble), but I'm slowly looking for ways to open that up again (I've had some bad experiences, so I got too gunshy...) > And don't we all have the list police, the ones who point out every > waste of bandwidth/minor infraction (talk about a waste of space)? My lists have a strict "don't play list cop" policy -- because I've found the meta-discussions that break out over this kind of stuff to be the most destructive and disruptive fights on the lists. Someone posts something that's marginally acceptable to the list -- I, as admin, look at it and let it slide. Two hours later, a cowboy pops in and yells "off topic! you shut up!" and next thing I know, they're throwing furniture at each other again. The response creates a problem that so overwhelms the original problem it's not funny. So I go yell at the cowboy, who pouts and says "I was just trying to help" (no, you weren't. You were turfing. Besides, don't TRY to help. Help, or get out of the way. But haven't you noticed, whenever someone posts the latest virus hoax, or false rumor, or name your favorite, and you call them on it, they're always "trying to help"? Helping is spending two minutes validating something before forwarding it -- but.. Oh, never mind. Preaching to the choir). My list rules have a specific "don't play list cop" rule in them. So when a cowboy pops up, I have explicit language to shut them down. My usual response is something like "how can you enforce my list rules when you're not the admin -- without knowing the rules? Because if you knew the rules, you'd know that one of the rules was "don't do that!". ) It's a nice hack to slow the cowboys down and keep these meta-fights off the list (instead, the cowboys usually get huffy and yell at me privately, which is fine. Just let the list do what it's supposed to do, not argue about what it's supposed to do...). And it allows me to create a consistent atmosphere, since you don't have 12 self-appointed admins working a cross-purposes to each other... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. USENET is a lot better after two or three eggnogs. We shouldn't allow anyone on the net without a bottle of brandy. (chuq von rospach, 1992) From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 10:38:55 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA11271; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:22:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E685B17E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:22:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f19IHEj19641; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:17:14 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:22:14 -0800 Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Norbert Bollow , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200102091058.LAA32213@quill.thinkcoach.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/9/01 2:58 AM, "Norbert Bollow" wrote: > Do you have ideas for addressing the scaling problems of large > mailing lists? Not really, no. It's a huge, gnarly issue. The key is granularity -- The problem is that mail lists are invasive into someone's mailbox, and people have only a certain acceptable level of interruption and everyone's tolerance level is different. I've more or less come to the conclusion that the discussion list via email is a bad technology. It's just until recently, there really weren't better technologies -- and if all you have are hammers, everything looks like a nail. That doesn't imply you can't use e-mail. It implies that the delivery engine has to change. I'm experimenting with a web system that allows for email delivery, but allows people to better fine-tune what gets delivered. It's getting there, but it's not really what I want eventually (for one thing, email postings aren't supported) > I've been thinking about this a lot, and the best idea that I've > come up with is to use an edited ezine format for internet-based > conversations that are intended to attract many participants. A > live example of this idea (still in its early stages) is online > at http://integrity-in-politics.com/ Interesting concept. I like it at first glance. I'll have to take a closer look! Chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. "When his IQ reaches 50, he should sell." From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 10:53:59 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA18341; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:50:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0FF217E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:50:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f19IiKj20644; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:44:20 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:49:20 -0800 Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well From: Chuq Von Rospach To: , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3A83AF4E.6394.8785A70@localhost> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/9/01 5:50 AM, "Amy Stinson" wrote: > On 9 Feb 2001, at 11:58, Norbert Bollow wrote: > Once you get over 1000 members, > a "give and take" forum gets mostly taken (IMO). I don't think it's the size of the list, but the attitude of the list members. I've seen large lists surivive fine, I've seen small lists succumb to this. The problem is that a large list is more likely to come to notice of one of the personality types that leads to this kind of problem (I don't want to label them troll, although those are a problem, too. Control queen? Inherently dominant personality? Someone a lot like, well, me when I'm not watching myself closely enough) > List royalty > emerges and true discourse is discouraged. The mail-list hardening of the arteries. Stagnation. We've got lists we've been running, non-stop, since like 1992. A few years back, I noticed that we were getting very little "fresh blood" -- and attributed it to the overall expansion of the internet. We weren't the only game in town on topics any more, and weren't big, and weren't actively marketing. Then by complete accident, while researching something else, I found out that we WERE getting lots of new subscribers. They simply didn't stay around. A real eye opener. I went off and spent a couple of months tracking people down and asking questions -- and what I found was that people showed up, and didn't feel welcome, or were actively attacked for having views that didn't fit the list's acceptable opinions. This one's a rough one. At one level, you want (and need) that fresh blood, or you turn into an old phart's home, where all you do is get together on Tuesday to argue about who won last Tuesday's argument. On the other hand, you have an existing user population -- do you piss off (and possibly lose) them, just for this "fresh blood" thing? What if both populations flip you the bird? You're dead... There aren't any "right" answers here. What I did with my lists, since I try to be pretty open with them on admin issues, is take the data to them and simple level with them. I told them what I'd found, gave them examples, and asked them all to think about it. If they were happy with the way the list was running, I told them to do nothing. But I encouraged them to think about it, and be more tolerant of alternative viewspoints and less quick to jump on people. For the most part, it worked. Most of the users were upset they were doing it and not realizing it -- this wasn't trolling, but merely the cliquishness of a group getting to know each other pretty well and getting a ingrown and insular (If it's february, it's time for the annual argument over how the refs suck). I think the results have been encouraging, but I still think we have issues here. But there's a better understanding. And I try to be a lot more aware of this kind of "examine your navel" thing, and look for ways to break up the habits before they get too rigid, and keep things flexible. List "royalty", FWIW, is a good thing, within limits. I've yet to see a discussion list where the vast majority of content isn't created by a relatively few members. Whether it's formally acknowledged or not, the "regulars" get cut slack the lurkers don't. The more someone proves themselves a positive resource on a list (and the more they prove themselves to be clueful in general) the more I'll trust their judgement, even if I disagree with them. If someone I don't know posts something I think is inappropriate, it raises alarms -- if someone I know well does it, I'll assume they have a good reason to. How I approach each will be different because of that. But list royalty has to follow the rules, too, even if the rules are more flexible for them. That means they can't get into attacks, trolls, or any of that other stuff -- and one aspect of the list royalty you have to watch is the tendency to start thinking they are by definition right. That's where you get into that clique thing, the insular and intolerance issues. Dealing with those issues is why we list managers make the big bucks, right? Funny how even on the internet, the technical issues are really the easy ones? List management is more people managmeent than anything else. Just like real life... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty. To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 11:24:08 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA21074; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:07:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E697717E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:07:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from NY110-19-024B.bloomberg.com (kula [160.43.2.2]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f19J7Ku75408 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:07:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 14:07:22 -0500 From: Tom Neff To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: "types" on our lists Message-ID: <670142687.981727642@NY110-19-024B.bloomberg.com> In-Reply-To: <200102090900.BAA02473@honor.greatcircle.com> References: <200102090900.BAA02473@honor.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0a2 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Yes, all sizable lists have these "types" of people on them, and it's fun to list them once in a while. Others include * the charmingly grammar-challenged postaholic * the people whose otherwise perfectly interesting and normal posts are written with oddball margins on the left and right or double spaced for line after line... * the Nine 1-Line Posts In A Row Creature * Mister Hobbyhorse: no matter what the original topic is, he will eventually work his way around to mentioning his slightly crackpot hot button issue, in hopes someone will give it a buzz... * Apology Person (sorry for mentioning her/him!) - every posting begins "Sorry to [bring this up|waste list bandwidth|ask a stupid question|interrupt everyone's reading|...], then mentions something perfectly ordinary, then adds an "I know this is probably [off topic|stupid|silly|too long|...]", then finishes the thought or request, then closes out with "Again, sorry..." * the Acronym Proliferation League [APL]: listmembers who won't rest until every possible topic, concept, person, and potted plant on a list has its own Fussy little Acronym [FlA] which must then be deployed in just the right location and sequence in message Subject lines, body leaders, signatures and so forth. At its apotheosis this lets you conduct entire conversations in code without writing a word of English, rather like the prison story where everyone knows the jokes so for a laugh someone just calls out "36." From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 11:39:04 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA21113; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:08:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E7617E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:08:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f19J35j21316; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:03:05 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 11:08:05 -0800 Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Tim Bowden , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/9/01 8:01 AM, "Tim Bowden" wrote: > I would love some of those problems. I promise I will share and > commisserate totally with all who face those many onerous troubles if > you will but point me the way to achieve this large mailing list! We should probably make explicit that we're talking about discussion lists, or perhaps call them interactive lists. If you're doing announce-only or some kind of e-newsletter where there's an active editorial process, they scale wonderfully (I run a server with lists into seven digits). It's when you get a group together and talking you run into problems. I'm not sure it IS solvable, with or without technology. If you're in a college class with 15 people, it's easy to have a discussion circle. But translate that to a lecture hall with 200 -- all the microphones in the world won't allow you to hear through the babble. So I'm more or less convinced you have to change the system in some way, to give people ways to find what PART of the conversation they're most interested in. That's the real flaw in lists, the lack of a way to build flexibility and granularity into it. (Digests are NOT the answer. Digests simply mean you have the same volume of mail delivered once a week by UPS in a big box instead of once a day by the postman -- and all digests do is limit the rate of interruption and encourage you to scan the mail standing over the trashcan. It'd be better ot find a way to not have the stuff you don't want left undelivered in the first place...) The structure of mail lists make them really tough to be flexible -- you can't just set up a temporary list for a hot topic easily, because of the logistics of the server and everyone having to sign up and everything. I've mulled it over a lot, and just don't have any answers, other than finding ways to enable this granularity and flexibility, and I don't see any way to do that via mail lists. So I'm working towards web/email hybrids instead, with more end-user flexibility in what they choose to ssee, how they choose to have it delivered and the like. > Good idea. A lot of problems go away when the listowner can > edit before production. The difference between reading the slush pile and reading the magazine. If you have the resource, you can do a LOT through active editing. But you're trading off man-hours and timeliness, and you succeed only as well as your reader's vision of what's good matches your editor's... And it's very time consuming. > and as a > consequence I am the only one who regularly acts the complete fool. No, you aren't. And if you don't believe me, I'll caper and ring my bells at you again.... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid. From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 11:54:01 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA28686; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:48:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from lem.emu.com (unknown [192.136.8.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0325217E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:48:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from emu.com (dhcp182 [192.136.8.182]) by lem.emu.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08715 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:48:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A844938.8BA5891D@emu.com> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 11:47:04 -0800 From: Matthew Bellizzi X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "list-managers@greatcircle.com" Subject: Attachment Question Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------56756AC9104399FE70D27D97" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------56756AC9104399FE70D27D97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy I'm fairly new to Majordomo. Everything seems to be working well but, I have one question. I wqould like my subscribers to be able to send attachments to the list. I'm using majordomo to server internal lists only. Is there a way I could do this on a list by list basis? I'm running majordomo-1.94.5, thanks in advance. --------------56756AC9104399FE70D27D97 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="mattb.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Matthew Bellizzi Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="mattb.vcf" begin:vcard n:Bellizzi;Matthew tel;work:831-430-1730 x-mozilla-html:FALSE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:mattb@emu.com fn:Sr. Systems Administrator end:vcard --------------56756AC9104399FE70D27D97-- From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 12:12:20 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA28966; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:00:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.rev.net (mail.rev.net [206.67.68.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3636C17E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from admin3 (admin3.rev.net [12.26.100.205]) by mail.rev.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f19K0mo07023 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:00:48 -0500 Message-Id: <200102092000.f19K0mo07023@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: List-Managers Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:00:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well Reply-To: bernie@fantasyfarm.com In-reply-to: References: <200102091058.LAA32213@quill.thinkcoach.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9 Feb 01, at 10:22, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I've more or less come to the conclusion that the discussion list via email > is a bad technology. It's just until recently, there really weren't better > technologies -- and if all you have are hammers, everything looks like a > nail. Could you elaborate? I've stated that opinion several times on this forum [that emails aren't good for 'discussion forums'], but I've always thought [then and now] that usenet-technology was really quite good --- you can run a private [even password-protected] server and run forums using tried-and-true 'news' technology and, IMO, have a quite effective forum. But usenet doesn't qualify as "until recently", and so I'm perplexed. I thought I"ve been following these sorts of thing and I certainly haven't seen anything even better than mailing lists, much less better than news, for discussion forums. The only slightly-new technologies I've seen are various sorts of web-based discussion/thread/message systems, but every one I've seen [or tried to use] has been invariably awful and cumbersome, so I doubt that that's what you had it mind. Was it? Or is there some other, better, forum-mediation machinery out there that I don't know about... [NB: to emphasize, this is for wide-participation discussion forums; obviously, other sorts of forums can/probablywill be better served by different technologies]. /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 13:23:55 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA29836; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:17:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from one.elistx.com (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD12817EB5 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from two.elistx.com (two.elistx.com [209.116.254.209]) by eListX.com (PMDF V6.0-24 #44856) with ESMTP id <0G8I00GF7DTYG0@eListX.com> for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 09 Feb 2001 16:17:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 16:19:46 -0500 (EST) From: James M Galvin Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well In-reply-to: X-Sender: galvin@two.elistx.com To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: List-Managers Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The structure of mail lists make them really tough to be flexible -- you can't just set up a temporary list for a hot topic easily, because of the logistics of the server and everyone having to sign up and everything. Mailing lists are not inflexible, it is the management interface that is inflexible. Case in point. I have and use a web-based system that is quite literally two clicks (one to type in the name and one to type in the welcome message) on a web page to create a list and two clicks (one to destroy and one to confirm) to destroy it. Subscribing is one click or email message to request a subscription, and one reply message to confirm it. It is not obvious to me how to make this easier but your mileage may vary. Don't get me wrong. Large discussion lists can be a problem, and while mailing list technology in general may not lend itself to the desired functionality, that's no reason to blame the management. The management just needs to be fixed. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Cure For What (M)ails You: From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 13:38:57 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA29733; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:06:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18C3E17E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:06:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id NAA06361; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:06:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:06:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200102092106.NAA06361@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: <670142687.981727642@NY110-19-024B.bloomberg.com> (message from Tom Neff on Fri, 09 Feb 2001 14:07:22 -0500) Subject: Re: "types" on our lists Reply-To: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 14:07:22 -0500 From: Tom Neff Yes, all sizable lists have these "types" of people on them, and it's fun to list them once in a while. Others include * the charmingly grammar-challenged postaholic And its mate: the poster who insists that any message with an error (usually they choose one particular error, like it's for its, or your for you're, and then go on to make several different ones on their own) isn't worth reading (but of course their posts stating this are?). * the Nine 1-Line Posts In A Row Creature Argggg! * Apology Person (sorry for mentioning her/him!) - every posting begins "Sorry to [bring this up|waste list bandwidth|ask a stupid question|interrupt everyone's reading|...], then mentions something perfectly ordinary, then adds an "I know this is probably [off topic|stupid|silly|too long|...]", then finishes the thought or request, then closes out with "Again, sorry..." Oh wow I know this one. Unfortunately, most of these on my list have decided that the best way to deal with their fears is to send their questions privately to me. Since it's a health list I don't like to leave people hanging (many of the questions are pretty serious) but it takes up a lot of my time. And if I can't post any answer I write, I'll get the same question asked privately by someone else. I often deal with this by pointing the person back to the list (usually by saying I'll answer them there). Sometimes I'll ask permission to forward their post (with my reply) there if I think it's a question (and answer) that others will want to hear. Then there are the people who apoligize profusely and then post something they know darned well isn't allowed on the list. Like a virus warning or a request for information on a completely unrelated topic or a copyrighted news article. So god forbid you should criticize them for it! (this is one reason my main list is moderated) I've also noticed that support groups have different dynamics and players from hobby and professional groups (and they're completely different from political and opinion groups). My absolute favorite (not!) support group player is the one that yells obsenities and calls people who set them off the worst possible names, often forwarding private email so they can scream about it on list. I was the object of one of these people's wrath once. I had sent her a polite and brief private email asking if she would please not forward at least a dozen long joke chain mails to the list every day. And then when confronted about their behavior they say it is a symptom of their illness (or a result of stress) and they can't help it and how dare anyone hold them responsible (there's never an apology attached). On my list these people get booted almost immediately, but I've been on other lists where the moderator never stepped in. Then there are the enablers...those people who yell cruelty whenever anyone even suggests that an abusive person be removed from the list. "She needs this group!" "He'll die without the support he gets here!" "She has no place else to go!" *grimace* Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com http://www.tikvah.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 14:07:46 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA00237; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnai.com (dnai.com [207.181.194.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22ABF17EB8 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from triton.dnai.com (sendmail@triton.dnai.com [207.181.195.20]) by dnai.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA32834 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:46:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (meh@localhost) by triton.dnai.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA27288 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:46:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from meh@dnai.com) X-Authentication-Warning: triton.dnai.com: meh owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:46:26 -0800 (PST) From: Mikael Hansen X-Sender: meh@triton Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: "types" on our lists In-Reply-To: <670142687.981727642@NY110-19-024B.bloomberg.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Tom Neff wrote: > * Apology Person (sorry for mentioning her/him!) - every posting begins > "Sorry to [bring this up|waste list bandwidth|ask a stupid > question|interrupt everyone's reading|...], then mentions something > perfectly ordinary, then adds an "I know this is probably [off > topic|stupid|silly|too long|...]", then finishes the thought or request, > then closes out with "Again, sorry..." This type is likely to succeed given a listmaster, who on one hand more often than not lets the off-topic behaviour slide, but on the other hand quickly gets offended by so-called cowboys who after a while have grown tired of it. While not approving of the cowboys, I can at times sympathize with them more easily than with both listmaster and the off-topic poster. And if the listmaster indeed is up to the task, subscribers won't notice so, unless the rate of off-topic list contributions actually decrease or a clear admin statement is sent to the list. From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 14:22:52 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA00280; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:50:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.vnet.net (smtp3.vnet.net [166.82.1.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE79317E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp3.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f19LoAC13686 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA23098 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:50:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:50:10 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: List-Managers Subject: Quasi-meta-discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > ... My lists have a strict "don't play list cop" policy -- > because I've found the meta-discussions that break out over > this kind of stuff to be the most destructive and disruptive > fights on the lists. ... At the risk of picking another fight with Chuq... I haven't had any significant problems with disruptive meta-discussions. Am I just lucky? Anyone else have a major problem with volunteer list-cops? I can't say it's never happened, just that it's an insignificant and rare transgression... I did get rather annoyed at one $ubscriber who proclaimed that one of my lists was an exclusive club which only admitted gurus like him. Another variation on pulling up the ladder behind you. The list in question does use an application for new $ubscribers but it's far from exclusive. The guy who runs the forum isn't a guru on the list topic. A few years ago I had some minor problems with fake virus warnings, email taxes and such. Overall, this hasn't been a major ongoing issue. I allow and occasionally encourage list policy discussions on-list. - murr - From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 14:37:37 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA00155; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:39:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from aloha.webkahuna.com (aloha.webkahuna.com [207.26.54.245]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C2817EB8 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:38:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from JANET (aux-209-217-59-63.oklahoma.net [209.217.59.63]) by aloha.webkahuna.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA12845; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:38:47 -0600 From: Janet Detter Margul To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Tim Bowden , List-Managers Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 15:38:31 -0600 Organization: WeeBe Graphics Reply-To: janet@dm.net Message-ID: <6no88ts676sjgvp4opum5ikjlluc3a9kad@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This "selective editing" is done on my unmoderated list with those FLA (funny little acronyms) subject line markers. 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WeeBe Graphics Plano, Texas | they have power surges! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D See my jewelry at http://www.weebedazzled.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 14:41:09 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA00250; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:47:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from one.elistx.com (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390DB17EB8 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:47:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from two.elistx.com (two.elistx.com [209.116.254.209]) by eListX.com (PMDF V6.0-24 #44856) with ESMTP id <0G8I00GGJF8IG0@eListX.com> for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 09 Feb 2001 16:48:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 16:50:05 -0500 (EST) From: James M Galvin Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well In-reply-to: X-Sender: galvin@two.elistx.com To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: List-Managers Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: I've more or less come to the conclusion that the discussion list via email is a bad technology. It's just until recently, there really weren't better technologies -- and if all you have are hammers, everything looks like a nail. I hope you don't really mean this quite as literally as it is stated. I think it's short-sighted to suggest that mailing lists are universally bad technology for discussion lists. I prefer mailing lists over all other related technologies. The principal reason for this is that it is push technology and I really like having everything in my local environment. This way I get to manage it in whatever way is best for me. Of course, I recognize that I'm not a typical user, but that certainly doesn't make what I want and how I like things intrinsically bad. In my opinion no technology deals exceptionally well with the problem of a large group of people contributing to a discussion. The analogy that someone suggested to a lecture hall was an excellent one. Each technology (mailing lists, newsgroups, chat rooms, etc.) has its limits on how well it functions as the number of participants increases. Developers of Internet technologies know very well that the only real problem to solve is "scalability". Nonetheless, as a practical matter, I have another suggestion to the problem of a large discussion mailing list. You didn't like digesting, which is fine, but how about we reach to a finer level of granularity. Another solution I have seen work is to throttle or otherwise limit the messages that can be submitted to the list. Two popular limiting criteria are by the domain name of the email address and by the entire email address itself. This can also be done entirely automatically. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Cure For What (M)ails You: From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 14:54:30 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA00110; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from aloha.webkahuna.com (aloha.webkahuna.com [207.26.54.245]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB8717EB8 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from JANET (aux-209-217-59-63.oklahoma.net [209.217.59.63]) by aloha.webkahuna.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA12772 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:36:16 -0600 From: Janet Detter Margul To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: List(people) Management Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 15:36:00 -0600 Organization: WeeBe Graphics Reply-To: janet@dm.net Message-ID: References: <3PP15F1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> In-Reply-To: <3PP15F1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk =46or me, this list is of marginal value normally, because I'm not all-involved with the mechanics, we use listserv and I don't really mess with it, other than the simplistic mundanes of management. I stick around and scan everything that passes through, though, for the occasional "(big domain) is bouncing everything" warning. Now people-management is a huge interest for me, and takes up 90 percent of my time as a list-owner. Now if this is really off topic for this list (got that impression from something somebody wrote), someone tell me to shut up and take it elsewhere and, unlike some of my listees, I will. (I pause for a minute, hearing no objection yet, I continue.) What would be of great value to me would be a discussion about some of these list types and positive ways to handle them.=20 I already talked about the "need to organize" folks, and how I give them an official title and standing and they thrive on that, provide service to the rest of the list and stay out of my hair. This title-bestowing is effective for me. I don't have such an effective method for dealing with the self-appointed list police, though. Those folks not only irritate me no end, but they drive off enthusiastic newbies, and I wish I had a good handle on this. What I'm doing now is posting every now and then a "this list is unmoderated, there is only one rule, all the rest of this is courtesy, if you want to know who is list administration, save my email because I'm the only one" sort of thing, which shuts them up for a (too short) time. Once I tried, with my worst offender, handing out an official title of "periodic poster of list courtesies" but that didn't work, she preferred being list cop. I may add Tim's "If you didn't write it, then we've already seen it elsewhere, and don't need it here" to the list courtesies, though. Occasionally these repostings are of value, but way more often they are netbilge. (See, already something of personal use for me!) Tom's list of types could have been culled from my list (just today all the types have shown up and it's not yet suppertime). Stepping through those hoping for comments... >* the charmingly grammar-challenged postaholic Grammar, spelling and punctuation (and ratz, she's just discovered "stationary") ... but charming and interesting and what do you do when one of the newer nitpickers picks on her? (She's also thin-skinned.) Same with the funky spaced posts being a magnet for nitpickers. Uhhh I guess this is back to what to do about the picker-problem, huh? > * the Nine 1-Line Posts In A Row Creature Another irritant for me, and I have no effective way of dealing with these, either. (Do I need to deal with them? Maybe, maybe not. I see newbies scared off with the number of posts per day, before even reading them and seeing how many are nothing.) I lead by example on this, consolidating and condensing post replies, but this really isn't effective for the worst offenders (who also don't know how to selectively quote anything). I've called them the "me too" folks, even though it's more likely a flip comment in three words than just "me too." >* Mister Hobbyhorse:=20 Big shrug here, irritating but what can you do? (unmoderated list, remember?) Heh, other than when others start posting their "zzzzz" posts to post "unmoderated, remember? delete if you don't like the thread, don't add venom to it please" >* Apology Person (sorry for mentioning her/him!)=20 ... seems to need validation, eh? I usually post a don't apologize, there are lurkers with the same question, etc. sort of thing. It's that "welcoming newbie" thing I seem to have, but it doesn't keep the apologists from posting that way again. >* the Acronym Proliferation League [APL]:=20 Oh yeah! My list has a number of subject line acronyms (and the list nitpickers to complain when someone forgets one). I find them helpful but please, only two or three. And this circles back to the nitpickers and how to handle them. So how do you handle the nitpickers?? How do you make newbies welcome? How do you keep the 20 list members who post 90 percent of the posts from becoming the list royalty clique? How do you generate on-topic discussions and foster that sense of community successful lists need? Inquiring minds want to know. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Janet Detter Margul | Real women don't have hot flashes... WeeBe Graphics Plano, Texas | they have power surges! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D See my jewelry at http://www.weebedazzled.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 15:38:57 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA01482; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:22:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from bp.ucs.louisiana.edu (bp.ucs.louisiana.edu [130.70.132.231]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 614B317E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from louisiana.edu (h134212.louisiana.edu [130.70.134.212]) by bp.ucs.louisiana.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1/ucs-server_1.4) with ESMTP id RAA14450 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:22:55 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3A847C4B.2D7FD164@louisiana.edu> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:24:59 -0600 From: Istvan Berkeley Organization: Philosophy, The University of Louisiana at Lafayette X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Lists and society Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi there, Someone raised the importance of the notion of 'community' on lists. I think that this is an important issue, that is all too seldom overlooked. Judging by some of the remarks here, my main list PHILOSOP, is pretty atypical. My main tool in list management is what 'social engineering'. I have a pretty nice statement of purpose that I can use to try and restore order. The main problem I face is that, by the nature of the profession, philosophers are pretty aggressive. Every once in a while a topic can get out of control. I have found a very neat solution is to have a web based chat system that can be deployed for contentious issues. This avoids all the usual stupidity of 'you are a facist', but also moves silliness off the list. It is funny how debate usually dies out quite quickly off list. Most of my subscribers lurk, but that is fine, as too much traffic is a pain. However, it is nice that whenever there is trouble I usually get a bunch of supportive messages. The trick to running the list seems to be a balancing act -- allowing some things to slide, whilst being stern when a major infraction occurs. Finding the right mix for this balancing act is the hard part. I think that THIS is the hardest thing for new list managers to learn and it is also what helps build the feeling of community. Unfortunately, this is also the hardest thing to teach. It seems to me that a set of "What to do if X happens" FAQS posted somewhere, based upon the wealth of experience that resides on this list might be a useful tool. At least there would be a place to point newbies. I would certainly be willing to contribute. For instance, the taxonomy of list persona-types, apart from being hillarious, might prove a useful resource. Any takers on this? On another matter, someone asked about making majordomo carry attachments. I have the opposite problem: I want to stop majordomo carrying attachments! We had a few hits from the notorious W32/Hybris@m worm. I'd like to stop such things coming in. As I only have e-mail access to my majordomo (although I have cordial relations with the folks who have direct access), my guess is that I'll need some help. Can anyone tell me (off list) what needs to be changed and where? All the best, Istvan PHILOSOP Moderator -- Istvan S. N. Berkeley, Ph.D. Philosophy & Cognitive Science E-mail: istvan@louisiana.edu The University of Louisiana at Lafayette P.O. Box 43770 Tel: +1 337 482-6807 Lafayette, LA 70504-3770 Fax: +1 337 482-5002 USA http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~isb9112 From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 17:09:00 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA02521; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:54:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0761417E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [165.227.249.17] (ip17.proper.com [165.227.249.17]) by above.proper.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14185; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:54:35 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:54:01 -0800 To: murr rhame , List-Managers From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Quasi-meta-discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:50 PM -0500 2/9/01, murr rhame wrote: >I haven't had >any significant problems with disruptive meta-discussions. Am I >just lucky? Probably. > Anyone else have a major problem with volunteer >list-cops? You betcha! Some lists that I run that are not closed to subscribers, and get occasional spam (like one or two a month). The "why don't we close the list" discussions are usually much worse than the spam, and often take up more messages than the list topics. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 17:53:55 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA02973; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:40:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from renown.cnchost.com (renown.concentric.net [207.155.248.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3443117E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:40:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (dsl-64-195-231-125.telocity.com [64.195.231.125]) by renown.cnchost.com id UAA19321; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:40:38 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010209173231.01e83d00@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:40:59 -0800 To: Istvan Berkeley , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: JC Dill Subject: Re: Lists and society In-Reply-To: <3A847C4B.2D7FD164@louisiana.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 03:24 PM 2/9/01, Istvan Berkeley wrote: >On another matter, someone asked about making majordomo carry >attachments. I have the opposite problem: I want to stop majordomo >carrying attachments! We had a few hits from the notorious W32/Hybris@m >worm. I'd like to stop such things coming in. As I only have e-mail >access to my majordomo (although I have cordial relations with the folks >who have direct access), my guess is that I'll need some help. Can >anyone tell me (off list) what needs to be changed and where? You can easily do this on a list-by-list basis vial the list config file. To get the config file via email for a majordomo list, send email to majordomo and say: config listname approvalpassword My list has: > # taboo_body [regexp_array] (undef) > # If any line of the body matches one of these regexps, then the > # message will be bounced for review. >taboo_body << END >/NextPart/ >/unsubscribe list/ >END > > # taboo_headers [regexp_array] (undef) > # If any of the headers matches one of these regexps, then the > # message will be bounced for review. >taboo_headers << END >/Content-Type: multipart/ >/^Content-Type:.*html.*/i >/^Subject:.*listname-digest.*/i >END To submit a new config file, you send to majordomo your newconfig with the command: newconfig listname approvalpassword followed by the entire new config file HTH jc From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 18:08:55 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA03190; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BE6417E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:01:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1A1u6j06495; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:56:06 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 18:01:07 -0800 Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well From: Chuq Von Rospach To: , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200102092000.f19K0mo07023@mail.rev.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/9/01 12:00 PM, "Bernie Cosell" wrote: >> I've more or less come to the conclusion that the discussion list via email >> is a bad technology. > Could you elaborate? I've stated that opinion several times on this > forum [that emails aren't good for 'discussion forums'], but I've > always thought [then and now] that usenet-technology was really quite > good I'll try. This is an issue I'm still grappling with, which is why so much of what I'm saying rambles and is unclear. I'm still figuring it out. You're right that NNTP is a good technology for this stuff, to a point. That point is where you hit the interface -- since you're in a more or less dedicated tool which users may or may not be familiar with, I think it lends itself to more technically sophisticated audiences (even moderately so) -- my mom can use email, and use web, but it would take some doing to get her up and running on a newsclient. Since it's a separate app, there's a learning curve, and you have limited ability to customize the interface -- with web forums, you have complete (or pretty much complete) control of the user experience, and I feel that's key for a community. So, NNTP is good, but he wrappings around it are deficient for what I want to do, unless it's somehow interfaced with other forms that I do have more control over. And I tried that about 18 months ago, and found that if the same data was available two or three different ways, NNTP came in third and basically nobody used it (I actually ran systems that were bi-directional web<=>email and web<=>nntp for a good while, and finally shut off the NNTP because it was more work than worth for the usage, which was tiny) So from a purely technical standpoint, you're correct. For my purposes, NNTP falls short, but in ways that aren't insurmountable. I think the more technically savvy or knowledgable the audience, the better NNTP is to serve them. But I think it's intimidating to the tech-novice, and rquires a learning curve users have to be willing to take to get advantage of it. I'm not sure the advantages of NNTP are worth all that -- e-mail was more comfortable for users, and I think the web-based stuff is now maturing enough to give us the advantages NNTP gave us but in a form that's got better control of the way data is displayed and in a way that users are more comfortable with. > The only slightly-new > technologies I've seen are various sorts of web-based > discussion/thread/message systems, but every one I've seen [or tried > to use] has been invariably awful and cumbersome, so I doubt that > that's what you had it mind. Was it? Take a look at what I'm doing -- www.hockeyfanz.com and www.chuqui.com. I'd be curious what you think. There's still work to do, but I think the systems are quite usable now, and while the audiences aren't huge (I've done basically no marketing or push for growth while I've been figuring out whether what I wrote was worth pushing and made sure it all worked the way I'd hoped) -- I'm comfortable with the current setup and think it has a nice growth path as technologies mature. The nice thing about what I've got is that it does have an e-mail component. You can set up a subscription that mails you topic digests, and also can email you immediately if someone replies to one of your own postings. But you aren't required to be inundated by email just to get stuff you're most interested in. the biggest missing pieces are the ability to post to the forums via email, and better email delivery options and granularity. Maybe someday... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid. From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 18:52:49 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA03518; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BE93417ED0 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:36:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa14413 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:36:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 09 Feb 01 18:09:24 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List(people) Management From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 17:58:02 PST Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Janet Detter Margul writes: > How do you keep the 20 list members who post 90 percent of the posts > from becoming the list royalty clique? One sure advantage of the mailing list to the lecture hall is certainly the non-linear confab possibilities. No one can really complain that someone is monopolizing an online discussion unless others are somehow excluded. If everybody has the same opportunity to chime in, then if I'm not having my fair share of spiel it's only my own fault. I do operate one small quick-time discussion group, but the troubles I see here and elsewhere tend not to occur there, because the group is more or less familiar with one another and they are there because of a certain commitment to the central project. It ain't just anybody in the world interested in gardening. I haven't seen anything of the overquoter here yet, but I have them, and, you know, the chief offenders are not the fledglings at all. One guy has been around for years and he just lazily clicks his replies (many times, "You bet!") and trails the entire past discussion behind him. He isn't susceptible to reason. If it bothered me a degree more, I'd have to spend time correcting it. I don't know how. Running frequent "Button Up Your Overquote" announcements? The other overquoter is a Silicone Valley software engineer long past the average age over there. I expect he won't grow out of it. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "Readers meeting Writers as the Sea the Very Sky" Send: subscribe nerdnosh To: majordomo@story.nerdnosh.org From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 19:08:45 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA03676; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:54:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.107]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12B4717E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [65.3.200.99] by femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010210025448.FCUK27719.femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com@[65.3.200.99]> for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:54:48 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: meh@pop.dnai.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:55:51 -0800 To: List-Managers From: Mikael Hansen Subject: Re: Quasi-meta-discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 16:50 -0500 2/9/2001, murr rhame wrote: >I allow and occasionally encourage list policy discussions on-list. And I agree. I see nothing wrong with it. It's good to be reminded of why we're here in the first place. From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 19:22:42 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA03839; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:02:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B24E217EB8 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:02:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa16529 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:02:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 09 Feb 01 18:46:59 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Quo Vadis? From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 18:43:42 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It is said: > You betcha! Some lists that I run that are not closed to subscribers, > and get occasional spam (like one or two a month). The "why don't we > close the list" discussions are usually much worse than the spam, and > often take up more messages than the list topics. Here we have a great difference in list philosophy already. For myself, I wouldn't even begin to set up an open list, and in my opinion spam degrades any forum much more than any objection to the crap ever could. You could cure both problems at one fell swoop, and I don't know why anyone wouldn't. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "Readers meeting Writers as the Sea the Very Sky" Send: subscribe nerdnosh To: majordomo@story.nerdnosh.org From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 19:38:04 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA03848; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:03:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from iecc.com (tom.iecc.com [208.31.42.38]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 16D7A17E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:03:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 27380 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2001 22:03:42 -0500 Received: from tom.iecc.com (208.31.42.38) by mail3.iecc.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2001 22:03:42 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:03:41 -0500 (EST) From: John R Levine To: James M Galvin Cc: List-Managers Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Mailing lists are not inflexible, it is the management interface that is > inflexible. It's true. My sister and I have fooled around with sort of a hybrid between e-mail and web boards, in which e-mail messages would have links or buttons like "stop sending me this thread" or "do send me this thread", with a default to send the first two or three messages of each thread. The main problem is that the only practical way I can see to do this is with HTML e-mail which is so dangerous and buggy that I wouldn't want to inflict it on anyone. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl, Sewer Commissioner Finger for PGP key, f'print = 3A 5B D0 3F D9 A0 6A A4 2D AC 1E 9E A6 36 A3 47 From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 19:52:43 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA03840; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:02:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 51D5B17E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:02:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa16519 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:02:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 09 Feb 01 18:42:38 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Lists and society From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 18:29:48 PST In-Reply-To: <3A847C4B.2D7FD164@louisiana.edu> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Istvan Berkeley writes: > Every once in a while a topic can get out of control. I have found a > very neat solution is to have a web based chat system that can be > deployed for contentious issues. This avoids all the usual stupidity > of 'you are a facist', but also moves silliness off the list. It is > funny how debate usually dies out quite quickly off list. I love the irony of a list of Philosophers following the trail of Social Engineering laid down by Mr Bob Dobbins at the El Toro Club, an Okie hardknuckle cinderblock drinking emporium, over forty years ago. He knew inherently that you did not need to step in between and pacify the warriors. All you had to do was deprive them of their audience. So the minute the bottles hit the floor, Bob and his crew would have the bristly boys out in the parking lot. They would stand there, nose to nose, all alone, and they'd come to terms pretty quickly. > It seems to me that a set of "What to do if X happens" FAQS posted > somewhere, based upon the wealth of experience that resides on this > list might be a useful tool. I think the needs range pretty widely with the types. What works for my digest format non-chat group would not if the list were interactive discussion. Someone might not mind netbilge as much as I do, and I may tolerate HTML more than someone else. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "Readers meeting Writers as the Sea the Very Sky" Send: subscribe nerdnosh To: majordomo@story.nerdnosh.org From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 20:07:47 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA03523; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:37:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DC14117ED1 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:36:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa14422 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:36:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 09 Feb 01 18:11:45 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: "Types" on our lists From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 18:10:39 PST Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The old ranger in Lonesome Dove, when he'd lost his hoss and was afoot out on the prairie, he pulled that long ol' Colt and he declared, "My name's Gus McRae and I'm comin' into camp." That's the way to enter a group. Most everyone rides a seasaw when joining a camp. Their first impulsive question is, what do all these mean to me? Where is my part in it? Eventually if they find comfort and joy, they begin to think, over there is a stranger I mark approaching, I wonder what she means to us. Those who leave out after a brief time because they don't feel welcome, I know they have very little invested in the first place. They can be chased by the flap of butterfly wings. They are testing the waters, and they are ready to flit any second. Perhaps they were bored and they joined groups like changing channels that week. And if you followed them and asked why they left, they might attempt to switch the weight back on you: "Oh, I just didn't feel welcome." The trick is to coddle the fledgling just so much and then no longer. Some of them will always be dependent on the patience of strangers. There's a slow progress to their development, and your reaction to it. You talk babytalk at the outset, you kick butt in six months. Well, I missed my coddling in this here forum. What do you all mean for me? I bet there are hundreds of thousands of subscribers within your collective influence - why don't you offer to run free ads for my list? "I sense I'm not welcome here!" - Richard Rich, in A Man For All Seasons tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "Readers meeting Writers as the Sea the Very Sky" Send: subscribe nerdnosh To: majordomo@story.nerdnosh.org From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 20:22:44 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA03517; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:36:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F2D517E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa14383 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:36:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 09 Feb 01 15:59:27 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 15:38:16 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > (Digests are NOT the answer. Digests simply mean you have the same > volume of mail delivered once a week by UPS in a big box instead of once > a day by the postman -- and all digests do is limit the rate of > interruption and encourage you to scan the mail standing over the > trashcan. It'd be better ot find a way to not have the stuff you don't > want left undelivered in the first place...) Here's that perspective trap again, I do believe. Here's how it works. My concern is for the forum itself. When I say, I can fix these problems, because I simply don't allow them to escape me, what's my perspective? Right, the list. We don't do ads, chat, or poetry, none of the really bad online habits, and the result of my digest schedule is, that don't happen. Nobody sees any of that garbage, so nobody thinks garbage, and that means eventually, over the years, the crap stops happening. I myself am surprised at how much less chaff comes through now as opposed to back when we were a fraction of our size yet running straight out spontaneously on anybody's whim. Whereas I do believe the viewpoint of Chuq is his own, is him, standing over by the dumpster with the bundle from UPS. First, if he spends the time, the forum is the better for it, second, if the forum blossoms, it carries its own inertia, which means very definitely he will need not a dumpster but a small trash can for bilge. Before we went to digest, I had to swat away all sorts of garbage, from re-sends to fiction attempts to chat. That doesn't happen anymore. It doesn't happen because there is a certain quality that runs out each night and even the broily boys either attempt to stretch and join us or they fly away where they are more welcome. They have not the example of a single other like themselves cavorting before the crowd. That makes a difference. This cannot work for a chat list, I fully recognize. Those sorts need the give-and-take of actual conversation. Heidi has a new idea for a whump-stitch she'd like to know about with the grandkids coming, she can't wait 48 hours for a possible reply. A digest - well, it's like the Bard says: What is love? 'Tis not hereafter. Present mirth hath present laughter. - Twelth Night, I think > The difference between reading the slush pile and reading the magazine. If > you have the resource, you can do a LOT through active editing. But you're > trading off man-hours and timeliness, and you succeed only as well as your > reader's vision of what's good matches your editor's... Well, I will say, my vision is far superior to any anarchist's picnic with all sorts of bilge distributed freely on the honor system. Beyond that, any project which depends on communication must necessarily stand or fall on editorial judgment. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "Readers meeting Writers as the Sea the Very Sky" Send: subscribe nerdnosh To: majordomo@story.nerdnosh.org From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 21:36:43 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA05639; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 21:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5A12717EB4 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 21:36:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26096 invoked by uid 50); 10 Feb 2001 05:36:11 -0000 To: List-Managers Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well References: In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Fri, 09 Feb 2001 18:01:07 -0800" From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: 09 Feb 2001 21:36:11 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 42 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > You're right that NNTP is a good technology for this stuff, to a > point. That point is where you hit the interface -- since you're in a > more or less dedicated tool which users may or may not be familiar with, > I think it lends itself to more technically sophisticated audiences > (even moderately so) -- my mom can use email, and use web, but it would > take some doing to get her up and running on a newsclient. That surprises me. What is she using to read e-mail? Netscape's news interface, whatever its flaws, should be pretty familiar to any user of the browser and very familiar to anyone who uses the same program to read e-mail. The same should be generally true of Microsoft stuff, I assume, although I've never used it. > Since it's a separate app, there's a learning curve, and you have > limited ability to customize the interface -- with web forums, you have > complete (or pretty much complete) control of the user experience, and I > feel that's key for a community. I think that people who argue a difference between web boards and NNTP are missing something really significant. Why pick one or the other? A Usenet news server makes a really nice backend database behind a web board, NNTP is a dead-simple protocol to put into a PHP script or the like, and then the people who really like news can just bypass the web front end and read directly from the underlying server. > So, NNTP is good, but he wrappings around it are deficient for what I > want to do, unless it's somehow interfaced with other forms that I do > have more control over. And I tried that about 18 months ago, and found > that if the same data was available two or three different ways, NNTP > came in third and basically nobody used it (I actually ran systems that > were bi-directional web<=>email and web<=>nntp for a good while, and > finally shut off the NNTP because it was more work than worth for the > usage, which was tiny) Were you gatewaying, or were you front-ending a Usenet news server with web software? -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 22:36:25 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA06282; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EB9017EB4 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:27:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1A6MIj13220; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:22:18 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 22:27:19 -0800 Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well From: Chuq Von Rospach To: James M Galvin Cc: List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/9/01 1:19 PM, "James M Galvin" wrote: > Mailing lists are not inflexible, it is the management interface that is > inflexible. I think we're picking nits. Here's the scenario I'm thinking of: I have a hockey list. Someone does something stupid, gets suspended. List gets 25 messages all whining about something or other about the suspension. On a straight mail list system (majordomo or mailman, for instance), to split this out, I have to config out a list and get it running, then go back to the first list, tell everyoen about the new list and ask them to go sign up (which everyone has to do), and use that list to talk about the suspension. By the time that's done, the burst of messages are done, the suspension is over, and everyone's wondering what's going on. For long-term splits, this is fine. For dealing with high-load bursts, mail lists can't handle it. > Case in point. I have and use a web-based system that is quite > literally two clicks (one to type in the name and one to type in the > welcome message) on a web page to create a list and two clicks (one to > destroy and one to confirm) to destroy it. Subscribing is one click or > email message to request a subscription, and one reply message to > confirm it. It is not obvious to me how to make this easier but your > mileage may vary. Which is pretty darn good. I'm impressed. But even that's a huge pain in the middle of an active discussion. Sort of like going to a party, and when someone brings up politics, telling everyone to go out onto the patio and stand on their heads in the middle of the sentence.... (grin) > Don't get me wrong. Large discussion lists can be a problem, and while > mailing list technology in general may not lend itself to the desired > functionality, that's no reason to blame the management. The management > just needs to be fixed. I'm not blaming the management -- it's an inherent aspect of the technology. With a web-forum type thing, it's pretty easy to create a new area, shift the messages over, and leave a pointer to people to follow -- and even in a hybrid web-email system like I run, it minimizes the amount of mail people get from this kind of topic-burst until they have a chance to decide if they want it... It's a lot easier to dynamically structure your topic areas on the web than by e-mail, so you don't have to worry as much about "is it worth building a list?" for things -- because even with your system, you have issues like documenting list topics, getting people to know it exists, convincing them to move a discussion to it. It's all doable, but not easy for the admin or the user. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end. From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 22:51:40 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA06440; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from clifford.inch.com (clifford.inch.com [216.223.192.27]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2343E17EB1 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:44:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from omar@localhost) by clifford.inch.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) id BAA02098; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:48:08 -0500 Message-ID: <20010210014807.A1747@clifford.inch.com> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:48:08 -0500 From: Omar Thameen To: Chuq Von Rospach , Tom Neff , List-Managers Subject: Re: wo'hoppen? References: <2370897230.981623440@[192.168.1.101]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Chuq Von Rospach on Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 08:32:41AM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It's been so long since I've joined that I had to go back to greatcircle.com to check out the charter for this list. I think it's worth posting: The List-Managers mailing list is for discussions of issues related to managing Internet mailing lists, including (but not limited to) methods, mechanisms, techniques, policies, and software (in general; questions about specific software packages should be directed to the mailing list dedicated to that particular package). I'd have to say that this still holds true. As a reader of the list, my biggest pet peeve is seeing the "how do I do X in Majordomo (or whatever MLM)." Fortunately, those are relatively few, and on the flip side, where else can you get access to the expertise and receive the breadth of feedback on a question like, "I have a 100,000 subscriber weekly announcement list - what scalability factors do I have to consider and what software is recommended?" Certainly there are ways that the charter can be expanded. For one, I find it useful to get advanced warning about problems that any of the big providers are having. If anyone can offer other suggestions, it might help everyone to determine what the interest of the group is. Omar On Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 08:32:41AM -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > I guess it all comes down to what you want to be. This list doesn't want to > take a leadership role in this stuff. That's fine -- but at times, the folks > on this list then complain because stuff isn't run the way they want it run. > If you want it run the way you think it ought to be run, go out and teach. > But that's not what the list's interest is. From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 23:06:24 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA06673; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:05:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F31317ED3 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:05:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1A6xNj13799; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:59:23 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 23:04:24 -0800 Subject: Re: List(people) Management From: Chuq Von Rospach To: , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/9/01 1:36 PM, "Janet Detter Margul" wrote: > I don't have such an effective method for dealing with the > self-appointed list police, though. Those folks not only irritate me > no end, but they drive off enthusiastic newbies, and I wish I had a > good handle on this It can be a problem. I've more or less solved it by putting a "don't do this" in the list rules, and when they do it, I have a way to step on it early. My current ToS is here: , (and for the long-timers here, it's morphed again, as I keep trying to reinvent things to fix the problems or weaknesses I introduced in the last reinvention...). I've really tried to get away from the nazi-list-mom schtick, since it works, but it also pisses off the good folks unneccessarily, so I'm currently trying to use a softer approach, avoiding as many Don't Do That! lines as I can, in favor of a "we're all adults here, we'd rather you not do things like that, but if you insist and do it wrong, don't say we didn't warn you..." My bottom line on dealing with topic cops is that if they're going to act like list admins, they should know the rules and not invent their own -- and if they know the rules, they know one of the rules is not to be a topic cop, so what's their excuse? They don't always like it -- but I haven't run into one with a loophole... To be blunt about it, if you really want to stop the topic cops, the occasional public flogging is necessary. Honest mistakes get treated gently, but to really stop the cowboys, or at least make them careful, you wait for one of them to give you a good excuse, and make an example of them. It'll make others think twice. It's important to pick your shots, though, to avoid the nazi-list-mom stuff. But I don't have a particular problem if the people I *wish* would go away don't like me or the way I run my list... (grin). It's the ones I want to keep around I try to keep happy. >> * the charmingly grammar-challenged postaholic > > Grammar, spelling and punctuation "If the best you can do is nitpick her spelling, the rest of her argument must be valid, since you can't refute it...." I guess I have my lsits well-trained, because we don't have much of this any more. When it does pop up, I simply point out how irrelevant and lame it is to the discussion, and people get the hint. Have to admit, I'm not all that nice about it -- but I don't have a lot of patience for this kind of waste of energy. >> * the Nine 1-Line Posts In A Row Creature > > Another irritant for me, and I have no effective way of dealing with > these, either. More meta-fights brewing... (grin) I think this is another example of why mailing lists suck for discussion lists. Because to use them effectively, there are these huge sets of rules and guidelines that you have to convince people to mostly follow, or things start falling apart rapidly. Editing included content in replies, one line responses, keeping context, but not everyting, changing subject lines, yada yada. If e-mail were a natural form for the discussion list, why does it seem so much work goes into trying to keep the content readable in this form? But I digress... (what else is new?) Unless you really like meta-fights over how lists ought to run on your lists, you have to pick your fights when dealing with netiquette issues, especially subjective things like this. There are some things it's easy to tell people ("if you're replying from a digest, fix the subject!") but also huge grey areas. And it just lends itself to a list sidetracking itself into examining its own navel instead of doing what it's there for. Sometimes you have to deal with it and work to clean up the rough edges. In general, I guess I've decided that fighting hand-to-hand combat on the lesser subjectivities of Miss net-manners just isn't worth it, so instead I preach tolerance. Within limits. I'll probably change my mind again some day. Either way, I think it's a lose-lose situation. >> * Apology Person (sorry for mentioning her/him!) > > ... seems to need validation, eh? Or -- a bit intimidated and trying to proactively divert attacks. I think a lot of this comes from folks a little intimidated by others on the list (like, oh -- me) who aren't sure how their material will be accepted, and are trying to avoid the "what idiot posted THIS CRAP" responses. Even if they won't remotely get that kind of stuff, don't minimize the issues of stage fright on a mail list... >> * the Acronym Proliferation League [APL]: > > Oh yeah! My list has a number of subject line acronyms (and the list > nitpickers to complain when someone forgets one). I find them helpful > but please, only two or three. And this circles back to the nitpickers > and how to handle them. I hate them. I don't encourage them. I rarely see them work well -- with the exception of relatively small lists with fairly static membership. Otherwise, you spend all your time educating people to use the TLAs, and that gets real tired. It seems like a minor improvement at best, and the noise and hassle they cause trying to get people to use them isn't worth it. > So how do you handle the nitpickers?? I nice, quiet "why is that relevant and why should we care?" -- if they're nitpicking trivia, pointing out just how trivial it is can help. But it's not easy. Sometimes, you just ignore them because fixing it is more hassle than leaving it alone. > How do you make newbies welcome? I wish I knew. It sure isn't "post an intro and we'll all say hello", that's for sure. You have to create an attitude of acceptance on the list. I wish I knew the secret to that. I keep looking. > How do you keep the 20 list members who post 90 percent of the posts > from becoming the list royalty clique? You don't. But you don't let it go to their head. These people are your bread and butter. Without them, the list is an empty echo of dripping water in the bathroom. I've been experimenting with ways to formally acknowledge and honor these people (I'm toying with an idea of a council of elders, who have certain priviledges beyond a normal user, but without responsibilities of the admin) -- without creating a priviledged class. I have no idea if it'll work, but the people who are the backbone of the list OUGHT to get some goodies people who contribute little (or little constructively...) don't get. > How do you generate on-topic > discussions and foster that sense of community successful lists need? If we ever figure out how to reliably do this,w e'll write a book and retire on the earnings. Frankly, I believe most vibrant communities happen, they aren't engineered. What you do is build a system you think can support the kind of community you want to have, find ways to attract the kind of people you want in the community, and then my flowchart has this box on it labelled "miracle occurs here" -- you have to have the right people show up and do the right things to spark the community. You can't force that spark -- but you can make it more likely by creating a friendly, fertile place for it. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. I'm really easy to get along with once you people learn to worship me. From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 23:36:25 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA06889; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.107]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE64917EB1 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:20:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org ([65.5.124.106]) by femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010210072030.FWSR27719.femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ee-nt.climber.org> for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:20:30 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20010209225107.00af7a80@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 22:52:05 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: SRE Subject: Re: Lists and society In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010209173231.01e83d00@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> References: <3A847C4B.2D7FD164@louisiana.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 05:40 PM 2/9/01, JC Dill wrote: >You can easily do this on a list-by-list basis vial the list config file. Or even easier, and more completely, with demime in the alias pipe: Demime home page: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.html Demime perl script: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.stable Demime config file: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime_junkmail.cf Demime email list: demime-l@scifi.squawk.com Fixes HTML and other crud along the way! From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 23:51:24 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA07320; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:48:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2120F17EB1 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:48:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1A7gZj14435; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:42:35 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 23:47:36 -0800 Subject: Re: Lists and society From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Istvan Berkeley , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3A847C4B.2D7FD164@louisiana.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/9/01 3:24 PM, "Istvan Berkeley" wrote: > On another matter, someone asked about making majordomo carry > attachments. I have the opposite problem: I want to stop majordomo > carrying attachments! I pre-filter all of my lists with a tool called demime. It strips MIME mail to just the text part, removing all that stuff. Some day I plan on extending the filtering to remove "dangerous" parts, but allow mime-based styled text. That means yes to HTML, no to .exe, no to flash, no to shockwave, or anything else that might carry a virus. There's still some exposure, but I think it's an acceptable risk to allow HTML. I think most folks are smart enoguh to be wary about clicking in to stuff, but carrying virus material through the list really scares me, so until I can deal with that, I'm sticking to plain text. Demime is nice because users don't have to worry about being compatible with the list -- th server deals with making it work for them. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty. To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 00:06:26 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA07426; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F054D17EB1 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:56:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1A7uxf16673; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 02:56:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA20480; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 02:56:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 02:56:58 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: List-Managers Subject: Re: Quasi-meta-discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > The problem is these meta-fights can be very destructive, > very quickly. Suddenly you come back from lunch to 40 > messages that boil down to "no, YOU shut up!" and half the > list is ducking under their desks to avoid the crossfire. That would be most annoying. I would take a very dim view of such a food-fight myself. Knock on wood. I haven't had one yet. > God, I say "it's a judgement call" a lot, don't I? (grin) So do I. Running a list is full of judgement calls. We've been talking about human factor issues for a while now. Each list and each admin has different goals and different styles. You gotta use what works for you on your list. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 00:22:46 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA07542; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:03:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4DD417EB1 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1A7vqj14643; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:57:52 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:02:53 -0800 Subject: Re: Quo Vadis? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Tim Bowden , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/9/01 6:43 PM, "Tim Bowden" wrote: >> You betcha! Some lists that I run that are not closed to subscribers, >> and get occasional spam (like one or two a month). > Here we have a great difference in list philosophy already. For > myself, I wouldn't even begin to set up an open list, Not closing your lists to subscriber-only posting is like coming home Friday night, smelling gas from a leak, and deciding to wait to call the plumber until Monday so you don't have to pay weekend rates. You're betting it won't get worse, it's sure not going to get better on its own, and it's really likely to blow up sooner or later, and the only guarantee you have is that when it DOES blow up, you'll be on deadline, busy, or on vacation. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 00:37:45 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA07812; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:28:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7E25217ED9 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:28:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26779 invoked by uid 50); 10 Feb 2001 08:28:05 -0000 To: List-Managers Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well References: In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:14:45 -0800" From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: 10 Feb 2001 00:28:04 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 31 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > On 2/9/01 9:36 PM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: >> I think that people who argue a difference between web boards and NNTP >> are missing something really significant. Why pick one or the other? >> A Usenet news server makes a really nice backend database behind a web >> board, NNTP is a dead-simple protocol to put into a PHP script or the >> like, and then the people who really like news can just bypass the web >> front end and read directly from the underlying server. > Very good point. Do-able, although I'm not sure I'd put in the work, not > if there are reasonable web-only solutions instead. But it's a very > interesting architecture. Most of the web-only solutions attempt to reinvent solved problems badly (such as threading). NNTP has had over a decade to get some of this stuff right and has learned at least a little from its mistakes. Compare how easy it is to follow a thread in a high-traffic Usenet newsgroup to how hard it is to read a thread in thread order on Slashdot. Not to mention that all of the filtering stuff that Slashdot tries to give you is still mostly inferior (except for the moderation level stuff, which is rather interesting and should be doable in NNTP with some custom headers in the overview) to the scoring capabilities that started showing up on a widespread basis in Usenet newsreaders about five years ago. Another nice thing about NNTP is that when you want to scale your discussion boards, synchronizing redundant back-end databases is a completely solved problem -- just use regular news feeds. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 00:52:46 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA07417; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:55:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D647A17EB1 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1A7nhj14505; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:49:43 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 23:54:45 -0800 Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Tim Bowden , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/9/01 3:38 PM, "Tim Bowden" wrote: > Whereas I do believe the viewpoint of Chuq is his own, is him, > standing over by the dumpster with the bundle from UPS. It is mine -- based on long-use of this stuff, talking to zillions of people about it, listening to my peers and betters, and doing god knows how much research to see what the literature says and what others are doing (I have spent, I kid you not, days doing nothing but tracking down list servers and signing up to them to see how people are doing things. I still keep a close look on what people are doing, so I can steal it for my own systems at work... ) I don't pretend I'm right, and I definitely don't pretend it's the One True answer. I don't believe in One True answers -- I try to find what's best for me and people who think like me, and hope that others who think differently find what works for them, too, and if we can cross-fertilize, everyone wins. > This cannot work for a chat list, I fully recognize. Well, I live and die with the chat list -- I should probably make that more explicit, but I get tired of reiterating it. My interest is in community, my goal is fostering community through discussion, and my tools are anything that I can use to make that happen. (my job is also e-mail, but slants differently. Sort of like cooking pasta for a living, then coming home and baking pastries to unwind -- same basic tools, very different results... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Love is the process of my leading you gently back to yourself. - Saint Exupery From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 01:15:45 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA07067; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:32:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36B1717EB1 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1A7Qrj14225; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:26:53 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 23:31:55 -0800 Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well From: Chuq Von Rospach To: James M Galvin Cc: List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/9/01 1:50 PM, "James M Galvin" wrote: > I've more or less come to the conclusion that the discussion list > via email is a bad technology. It's just until recently, there > really weren't better technologies -- and if all you have are > hammers, everything looks like a nail. > > I hope you don't really mean this quite as literally as it is stated. I > think it's short-sighted to suggest that mailing lists are universally > bad technology for discussion lists. I wouldn't use the word universally. Small lists, tightly focussed lists, low volume lists -- they all work fine in e-mail. The word I'm probably searching for is predictable. The more predictable list content is (within reason), the more people will get used to the list in their box, although the busier a list is, the more people will opt out and do without rather than put up with it. Digests or no, I simply can't stay on the MySQL or PHP lists, for instance, because they are too busy for me. They're things I really wish were in a different form where I could either adjust my granularity or adjust how pushy the content delivery was (or both). > I prefer mailing lists over all other related technologies. The > principal reason for this is that it is push technology and I really > like having everything in my local environment. And there's nothing wrong with that. However, there's a huge variability from person to person just how much they're willing to have pushed before it starts bothering them, and that's a big problem with mail lists. Those of us with high tolerances and/or smart filtering systems in the client have trouble understanding those that don't -- but it's a valid issue that has to be kept in consideration. Simply saying "learn to filter your mail" isn't the answer. > In my opinion no technology deals exceptionally well with the problem of > a large group of people contributing to a discussion. Basically, I agree. That's what I'm trying to work towards, though. Optimally, something that works well for small groups but scales as needed without radical shifts in technology or operation (administrative or user). And then, on Tuesday... My comment that "mail lists suck" is both true and not-true. There are many cases where it's clearly not-true, but I think for the general case it IS true. But it's a tough argument to make, because we all are used to mail lists. It's the old "everything is a nail" thing again -- we're so used to nailing things that we can't conceive of what it would be to own a screwdriver. It's not a GREAT technology for this, but it's a technology we're COMFORTABLE with. And the changes I'm suggesting are fairly radical shifts in mindthink, and inertia likes to win. > Developers of Internet technologies know very well that the only real > problem to solve is "scalability". Scalability is to some degree what I really do for a living these days. The base technologies are known -- how to subscribe, how to unsubscribe, how to deliver a piece of email. But -- how to handle 30,000 subscribes a day, 7 days a week, how to deliver 4 million pieces of email, all fully customized, in 12 languages based on user preference, in 8 hours -- that's scalability... (grin). How to allow 50 people to post email to each other is easy. How to allow 5000 to do it is a challenge. How to handle 50,000? You won't do it with a mail list.... > but how about we reach to a finer level of granularity. That's a huge area of exploration for me today. > Another solution I have seen work is to throttle or otherwise limit the > messages that can be submitted to the list. A useful thing if you have one guy posting 50 messages a day (like, um, me!). But what if you have a discussion list that's grown from 5,000 to 12,000 users, and you've gone from 200 users posting 2.5 messages a week to 600 users posting 4 messages a week on average? Nless you want sitewide throttles that dribble the messages out, what do you do? And when it grows to 18,000 users? Actually, now that I think about it, one other option would be to give a user the ability to throttle themselves -- a limit where they can say "only send me N messages a day". Whether you hold or throw out, I dunno. Maybe that's configurable. Actually, in a project I'm currently trying to design, we're adding a feature to guarantee people don't get more than N emails over a period of time, to avoid overloading folks with stuff. It's an interesting issue -- you want to communicate, they want you to communicate, but you don't want to get them feeling like you've moved in and put your feet on the coffee table... But if lists are subject to topical bursts, I'm not sure any of these really solve the problem. Slowing message delivery defeats topicalism, and that defeats the underlying purpose of the list, no? One option I've thought about is the "cel" concept. Blame John Le Carre, but you build a network of N users (big number). Rather than every message going to every person, split them into cels, where only stuff sent by someone in that cel gets sent to members of that cel. Virtually -- we're talking about that really big sports bar with lots of different rooms. You don't expect to hear every conversation in every room in real life, no? But virtually -- people have problems with that. But for a big, busy list? Or is this really a bunch of smaller lists umbrellaed under a meta list? See, here we go mutating the system to attempt to handle the content again. At what point does it stop being a mail list and start being something else? -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. I tried to get a life once, but they were out of stock. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 01:24:07 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA08461; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:13:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from green.syncronym.org (green.syncronym.org [216.118.17.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 58CCF17ED3 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2252 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2001 09:13:48 -0000 Received: from citadel.in.taronga.com (10.0.0.43) by green.in.taronga.com with SMTP; 10 Feb 2001 09:13:48 -0000 Received: by citadel.in.taronga.com (Postfix, from userid 101) id 8381D4142A; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 03:13:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Lists and society To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 03:13:47 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010210091347.8381D4142A@citadel.in.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach sez: >I >think most folks are smart enoguh to be wary about clicking in to stuff, but >carrying virus material through the list really scares me, so until I can I wish I could believe you. I'm still getting 30 to 40 Snowhites a day, this has been going on for a couple months. I think they're coming from people using my web pages, but it indicates to me that there are a *lot* of people out there infected with it. At least with happy99, I could tell them. These come from I don't know where. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 01:39:24 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA07696; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D688D17EB1 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:15:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1A89ij15282; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:09:44 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:14:45 -0800 Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Russ Allbery , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/9/01 9:36 PM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: >> (even moderately so) -- my mom can use email, and use web, but it would >> take some doing to get her up and running on a newsclient. > > That surprises me. What is she using to read e-mail? AOL. Like, oh, about 13% of my subscribers do... > I think that people who argue a difference between web boards and NNTP are > missing something really significant. Why pick one or the other? A > Usenet news server makes a really nice backend database behind a web > board, NNTP is a dead-simple protocol to put into a PHP script or the > like, and then the people who really like news can just bypass the web > front end and read directly from the underlying server. Very good point. Do-able, although I'm not sure I'd put in the work, not if there are reasonable web-only solutions instead. But it's a very interesting architecture. > (I actually ran systems that >> were bi-directional web<=>email and web<=>nntp for a good while, and >> finally shut off the NNTP because it was more work than worth for the >> usage, which was tiny) > > Were you gatewaying, or were you front-ending a Usenet news server with > web software? I was using Web Crossing, which was a web forum system with an embedded NNTP server. Sort of a floor wax and a dessert topping -- and it was like sailing a battleship in a bathtub. You could do what you wanted, if you had enough time and energy to figure it out... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Q: Did God really create the world in seven days? A: He did it in six days and nights while living on cola and candy bars. On the seventh day he went home and found out his girlfriend had left him. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 01:44:43 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA07174; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A46E817EB1 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:42:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1A7aaj14363; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:36:36 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 23:41:36 -0800 Subject: Re: Quasi-meta-discussion From: Chuq Von Rospach To: murr rhame , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/9/01 1:50 PM, "murr rhame" wrote: > At the risk of picking another fight with Chuq... (air hug!) > I haven't had > any significant problems with disruptive meta-discussions. Am I > just lucky? Anyone else have a major problem with volunteer > list-cops? You're probably somewhat lucky. At this point, I can't say these are major issues on my lists, either. I think most people have figured out those damn fake virus emails, too. It's hard for me to sometimes tell how much of this is global/systemic to the list world, how much is the part I'm attached to, and how much is how I've got my list users trained. It may be those are phases that the list world have grown past, or we're just waiting for the next wave of newbies or something. The problem is these meta-fights can be very destructive, very quickly. Suddenly you come back from lunch to 40 messages that boil down to "no, YOU shut up!" and half the list is ducking under their desks to avoid the crossfire. > I allow and occasionally encourage list > policy discussions on-list. So do I, sort of. I generally don't allow meta discussions to go on the list; I ask people to contact me privately to talk. But when the issue is how the admin is doing (in most cases, me) -- that's when it's opened up for open discussion. Ditto when there are policy or similar issues -- because you want the list involved (or, if people are yelling at me over something, I don't want the perception OR reality of attempting to avoid being held responsible for my actions by taking stuff private. I'll take my licks where people don't have to worry about being ignored or retribution of some kind. I think it's best to keep those discussions open). God, I say "it's a judgement call" a lot, don't I? (grin) -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 01:59:02 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA07351; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAE3A17EB1 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:50:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1A7oGf16168 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 02:50:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA20273 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 02:50:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 02:50:15 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: List-Managers Subject: Re: Quasi-meta-discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > > Anyone else have a major problem with volunteer > >list-cops? > > You betcha! Some lists that I run that are not closed to > subscribers, and get occasional spam (like one or two a > month). The "why don't we close the list" discussions are > usually much worse than the spam, and often take up more > messages than the list topics. Not sure what you mean by "not closed to subscribers." If you allows posts from non-subscribers, you will be spammed. This is a fact of life on the Internet. Some lists admins choose to stay wide open. Accepting posts from anyone who gets an itch is not an acceptable situation to me. Granted, forgeries can bypass not-subscribed filters but most subscribers, flamers and spammers aren't that bright. I haven't seen any requests to "shut this muther down" before. I've been called a SoB more than once, mostly behind my back. I'll admit I have done the Pied Piper thing and helped lead a rebellion to split off a subtopic from someone else's list. I've also helped people spawn new groups from a list that I run. As list admin, I've proposed shutting down one of my rarely-active lists a few times... That list still lives. Doesn't eat much of my time or server space. The semi-dormant list does get few "where did everybody go" questions now and then and once in a while a valid thread springs to life. Some of the problems I've seen described recently on list-managers puzzle me. For example, if someone sent a half dozen one-line replies to one of my lists, they would get one warning via private email. If the didn't take the hint, I'd either put them in always-moderate mode or punt them. Same goes for nitt-pick spell checkers, quote-back-everythings and most other annoying breaches of netiquette. Off-list diplomacy is my first choice but I'm not shy about enforcing decorum. One a list I host that is attractive to disruptive subscribers. I use a simple application... an entrance exam of sorts. I ask for their real name, any topic related affiliations and experience, and what they hope to gain from and contribute to the list. In practice, they don't need to have any experience or credentials to subscribe. I look for any indication that they have a serious interest in the list topic... I decline about one application a year. If you let brush fires go unattended, a list can get out of control pretty quick. It's a lot easier to keep things in order than it is to recover a list that has gone to the dogs... On the other hand, an anal-retentive list admin can kill a mailing list. You have to develop a feel for when you can let minor problems slide and when you need to step in. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 03:54:09 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id DAA13443; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 03:45:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from pat.uio.no (pat.uio.no [129.240.130.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E95CD17ED3 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 03:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from solva.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.64.20]) by pat.uio.no with smtp (Exim 2.12 #7) id 14RYSV-000140-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:44:55 +0100 Received: (from thomas@localhost) by solva.ifi.uio.no ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:44:51 +0100 Received: from solva.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.64.20]) by pat.uio.no with smtp (Exim 2.12 #7) id 14QuHL-0004W3-00; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:50:43 +0100 Received: (from thomas@localhost) by solva.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:50:43 +0100 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:50:43 +0100 From: Thomas Gramstad Reply-To: thomas@ifi.uio.no To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach 's message of Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:34:07 -0800 References: Message-ID: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > This place is a ghost town -- it's sitting here, slowly rotting > in the deserve, because nobody manages it, nobody's attempted to > make it a place people want to be, nobody's attempted to make it > a place people CAN find, and if they do happen to find it, > they'll as likely be greeted with silence or a rude attack as > actually have their questions answered. There's no fresh blood, > no new ideas, and no tolerance of either. OK. Would it be possible to make this place visible on egro..., sorry, yahoogroups? For example the following way: 1. Create list-managers@yahoogroups.com (LMY) 2. Subscribe LMY to list-managers@greatcircle.com, so that LMY is an archive of LMG. Make that archive readable to world. 3. Make LMY moderated and not open for subscriptions, i.e., it is ONLY an archive, it doesn't function as a separate list. 4. In the presentation of LMY at Yahoogroups, redirect everybody to http://www.greatcircle.com/lists/list-managers/ for subscribing there. The idea in a nutshell: PR for LMG, by making LMG visible, and available as an archive, at yahoogroups. I can set this up, if the list here generally agrees that it's a good idea. > And who's taken a lead to teach these people how to be admins? > And if nobody's setting up systems to teach them and convincing > them that it's in their best interest to learn -- why should > they? This place is the hermit on the mountain, somehow > expecting everyone down in the valley to know to come up here > for instruction, but nobody's gone down into the valley in so > long the villages don't even hear rumors of the hermits any > more... [...] But it's too bad that, given the knowledgebase > of people here, we aren't more actively attempting to evangelize > "how it ought to be" to those that are receptive to learning. OK. How about going down into this valley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/moderators-n-listowners That is a list for yahoogroups list owners. They could use some direction, so I'd encourage people here to sign up on that list as well. Thomas Gramstad thomas@ifi.uio.no From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 05:09:12 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id EAA14837; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 04:55:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from tarsus.cisto.org (tarsus.cisto.org [151.196.211.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28A6117ED3 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 04:54:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from quill.thinkcoach.com (root@pop-be-1-2-dialup-194.freesurf.ch [194.230.161.194]) by tarsus.cisto.org (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA18249; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 07:54:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.thinkcoach.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id OAA01191; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:31:40 +0100 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:31:40 +0100 Message-Id: <200102101331.OAA01191@quill.thinkcoach.com> X-Authentication-Warning: quill.thinkcoach.com: norbert set sender to nb@thinkcoach.com using -f From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: chuqui@plaidworks.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: (message from Chuq Von Rospach on Fri, 09 Feb 2001 18:01:07 -0800) Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach > Take a look at what I'm doing -- www.hockeyfanz.com and www.chuqui.com. I'd > be curious what you think. Hmm.. I don't think I'd want to use this for my "integrity in politics" site, because I think for the target group of that site, your system offers too many options, too many things you can click on, it's just too difficult to get overall comfortable with such a complicated system. But I think I can use some of your ideas. God bless you, Norbert -- Coaching for success in the internet economy http://thinkcoach.com Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 nb@thinkcoach.com From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 05:53:05 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA15368; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 05:42:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from amys-answers.com (unknown [206.53.239.113]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7A217ED3 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 05:42:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from famroom [206.53.239.126] by amys-answers.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A473E9B40440; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:38:59 -0500 From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva), list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:42:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Lists and society Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com Message-ID: <3A84FED9.17737.D97013D@localhost> In-reply-to: <20010210091347.8381D4142A@citadel.in.taronga.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 10 Feb 2001, at 3:13, Stephanie da Silva wrote: > I wish I could believe you. I'm still getting 30 to 40 Snowhites > a day, this has been going on for a couple months. I think they're > coming from people using my web pages, but it indicates to me that > there are a *lot* of people out there infected with it. Stephanie, I blocked all hahaha email from the LISTSERV and overall from my mail servers. I don't see it anymore, but it's wild. Also, have you ever considered putting your list of lists in categories? Amy ----- Amy Stinson Visit the Machine Knitting Internet Resource http://www.machine-knit.com MACHKNIT-SUBSCRIBE-REQUEST@LISTHOST.COM From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 07:37:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA16595; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 07:30:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from glatton.cnchost.com (unknown [207.155.248.47]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1A6517EBF for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 07:30:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (dsl-64-195-231-125.telocity.com [64.195.231.125]) by glatton.cnchost.com id KAA23801; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:30:02 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010210072037.01ece940@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 07:25:50 -0800 To: SRE , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: JC Dill Subject: Re: Lists and society In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010209225107.00af7a80@pop.climber.org> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010209173231.01e83d00@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <3A847C4B.2D7FD164@louisiana.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 10:52 PM 2/9/01, SRE wrote: >At 05:40 PM 2/9/01, JC Dill wrote: >>You can easily do this on a list-by-list basis vial the list config file. > >Or even easier, and more completely, with demime in the alias pipe: > >Demime home page: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.html >Demime perl script: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.stable >Demime config file: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime_junkmail.cf >Demime email list: demime-l@scifi.squawk.com > >Fixes HTML and other crud along the way! Yes, and no. If the entire post was in the mime attachment, you now have an empty post that has zero value to your list, which will probably generate several meta posts (why was that post empty? what happened to my post? why can't we post HTML?). Further, if someone expected their post to be formatted, by unformatting it you might have changed the content (removed bolding or italics that emphasized certain words) and changed what the author said. Finally, it assumes (yet again) that the admin has control over and access to the majordomo server. As I said earlier, I don't have control over either of the majordomo servers that host my lists. As such, I can *only* configure my lists via the email interface. I can change the config file, but I can't add demime. If this situation applies to the OP (which I believe it does based on the OPs post), then my solution works and yours doesn't. jc From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 08:37:53 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA17256; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:33:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70A717EBF for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:32:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1AGR1j23316; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:27:01 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:32:03 -0800 Subject: Re: Lists and society From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Stephanie da Silva , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20010210091347.8381D4142A@citadel.in.taronga.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/10/01 1:13 AM, "Stephanie da Silva" wrote: > I wish I could believe you. I'm still getting 30 to 40 Snowhites > a day, this has been going on for a couple months. That's bad. I've seen a few waves, but mostly it's gone again. Snow White, as fas as I can tell, ISN'T a "read the address book and forward yourself" virus. The copies I've examined seem instead to have been consciously sent to spam lists -- it's a script-kiddie job, not a self-forwarder. Now -- it could well be both, and the copies I've examined were the insertion attempts. I haven't attempted to look at the virus, just the injection system, to see whether I was vulnerable. Especially since the damn thing is both a .exe and a shockwave virus, depending on which variant you get. > At least with happy99, I could tell them. These come from I don't > know where. I think you're seeing script kiddies who are buying the spamlist CDs, not people on your lists who got infected. From what I've heard, that Snow White virus is nasty. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Q: Did God really create the world in seven days? A: He did it in six days and nights while living on cola and candy bars. On the seventh day he went home and found out his girlfriend had left him. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 08:52:53 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA17419; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:47:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD11317EBF for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:47:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1AGfnj23647; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:41:49 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:46:51 -0800 Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Russ Allbery , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/10/01 12:28 AM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: > Most of the web-only solutions attempt to reinvent solved problems badly > (such as threading). NNTP has had over a decade to get some of this stuff > right and has learned at least a little from its mistakes. The more you talk about this and the more I think about it, the more I'm intrigued. Do you have any sites you can point me to where they've done this? I want to go do some research.... > Compare how > easy it is to follow a thread in a high-traffic Usenet newsgroup to how > hard it is to read a thread in thread order on Slashdot. Not to mention > that all of the filtering stuff that Slashdot tries to give you is still > mostly inferior (except for the moderation level stuff, which is rather > interesting and should be doable in NNTP with some custom headers in the > overview) You aren't planning to implement the Accolade header after all these years? (grin) I've actually been heavily researching the slashdot style boards the last few weeks. They have some interesting plusses and minuses. I find I prefer the variant at www.kuro5hin.org better than slashdot itself, and they aren't really community tools (they're information concentrators), but I'll save people from having to listen to me babble about that unless you really want to hear (it'll eventually show up on www.chuqui.com when I can get it written up). Very useful tools for some things, but still very raw in terms of development maturity, and not really a great community tool. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 09:09:50 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA17384; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E5E117EBF for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:43:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1AGc1j23600; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:38:01 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:43:03 -0800 Subject: Re: Lists and society From: Chuq Von Rospach To: JC Dill , SRE , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010210072037.01ece940@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/10/01 7:25 AM, "JC Dill" wrote: > Yes, and no. If the entire post was in the mime attachment, you now have > an empty post that has zero value to your list, That's really a practical non-issue here, actually. Pretty much every mail client that does styled text (HTML or otherwise) actually send the thing as a multipart/alternative with a text/HTML and a text/plain part. De-mime strips it down to the text-plain, and you're okay. About the only e-mail I see that this doesn't work for is spam, and that's fine by me. > Further, if someone expected their post > to be formatted, by unformatting it you might have changed the content > (removed bolding or italics that emphasized certain words) and changed what > the author said. I have to say it, but That's Not My Problem. If they don't read my documentation, and if they can't tell text is being de-styled by looking at the list, I'm not going to worry about it. > Finally, it assumes (yet again) that the admin has control over and access > to the majordomo server. Again, TNMP -- you have to make some assumptions at some level. To make a change like this, you have to have access to some access point, somewhere, don't you? In practice, de-mime doesn't require you to have access to the mail server, but to the mail aliases, which is a lot easier to convince someone to let you do. You dn't have to filter the entire server, you can do it on a list by list basis by tweaking the aliases, so even if you can't make the change yourself, you can ask an admin to, and since it won't affect the entire server, it's a lot easier sell. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 09:24:51 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA17652; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:03:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA2DA17EBF for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:03:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1AGvuj23873; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:57:56 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:02:58 -0800 Subject: Re: Quasi-meta-discussion From: Chuq Von Rospach To: murr rhame , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/9/01 11:50 PM, "murr rhame" wrote: > Not sure what you mean by "not closed to subscribers." If you > allows posts from non-subscribers, you will be spammed. This is > a fact of life on the Internet. Some lists admins choose to stay > wide open. That's what they mean -- open to anyone to post. This is actually fairly common on lists involving open source projects, under the misguided belief that users should be able to ask for help without subscribing to the list. Ht:dig and Mailman are both currently configured this way, which is one reason wwhy I'm no longer on the Ht:dig list, and why I'm wavering about the Mailman list. The owners think it's worth putting up with the spam. It's hard to argue with a list owner running things their way, and the only response you really have is voting with your feet. > The semi-dormant > list does get few "where did everybody go" questions now and then > and once in a while a valid thread springs to life. This, FWIW, is the OTHER side of the whole granularity issue. You can't *over* granularize your stuff, because if you chop it up too finely, you can run into the issue of not having a critical mass of people to make the list work, because they're split up across lists so they can't co-mingle and get conversations going. That's not the only reason lists go fallow, of course. But to use my favorite sports-bar analogy, if you have a nice, big sports bar, but it has 50 rooms and two people in each room, it's not going to be a very lively place. Another one of those judgement call things (bah. The technology parts are easy! giggle) -- if you wedge too many things onto one list, you get conflict. If you split those things across too many lists, you get -- silence. Unfortunately, that leads to another reason why mail lists suck: if you have multiple lists that are related in some general way (I run hockey lists, for instance) -- mail lists suck at cross fertilization, and they can really get out of control fast if some overarching topic shows up and you end up with twelve independent conversations going on at once -- when what you'd really like is to herd everyonee into the big lecture hall to talk to each other. > Some of the problems I've seen described recently on > list-managers puzzle me. For example, if someone sent a half > dozen one-line replies to one of my lists, they would get one > warning via private email. If the didn't take the hint, I'd > either put them in always-moderate mode or punt them. Same goes > for [...] You're seeing issues of differing list admin styles come into play. You're a fairly pro-active one, so I think you nip stuff in the bud. Others are pretty laid back (when was the last time Mike got involved in a list-managers thing?). It also depends on the audience. I think these things are more likely if you have a turnover in the list, a flow of new members that have to learn how the list wants things done. Once a list stabilizes to a known population, it tends to go away. The faster the list population is growing or churning, the more likely you run into this stuff. > One a list I host that is attractive to disruptive subscribers. > I use a simple application... Nice hack. I like that. > If you let brush fires go unattended, a list can get out of > control pretty quick. It's a lot easier to keep things in order > than it is to recover a list that has gone to the dogs... On the > other hand, an anal-retentive list admin can kill a mailing list. > You have to develop a feel for when you can let minor problems > slide and when you need to step in. Agreed completely. I might even get it right some day. About the only thing I'd add is that each list has a personality, and it's important to figure out how the list wants to be administered. All my lists are different. Some really want a tight focus, some like to wander all over the map, and some want me to stay the hell out of the way and just replace the furniture after they're done throwing it at each other. You can set lmiits, but it's more important to me what the list wants than what I want for the list, IMHO... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 10:23:31 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA18390; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:13:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5584E17EBF for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) id f1AIDFx73727; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:13:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:13:15 -0500 From: Tim Pierce To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Stephanie da Silva , List-Managers Subject: Re: Lists and society Message-ID: <20010210131315.J51811@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <20010210091347.8381D4142A@citadel.in.taronga.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from chuqui@plaidworks.com on Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 08:32:03AM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 08:32:03AM -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/10/01 1:13 AM, "Stephanie da Silva" wrote: > > > > I wish I could believe you. I'm still getting 30 to 40 Snowhites > > a day, this has been going on for a couple months. > > That's bad. I've seen a few waves, but mostly it's gone again. > > Snow White, as fas as I can tell, ISN'T a "read the address book and forward > yourself" virus. The copies I've examined seem instead to have been > consciously sent to spam lists -- it's a script-kiddie job, not a > self-forwarder. If they're going to scraped addresses, it's a pretty weird scrape job. We're getting one-off copies to our mailing lists here. A typical spamware run will send mail to 1000-2000 lists at a time, but we're getting Snowhite in dribs and drabs, user by user. Maybe it sends a copy of itself to one person chosen randomly from your address book each time you send mail. I don't know. But it doesn't look like a ratware job. -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb.com lead system admonsterator and Chief Hacking Officer From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 10:37:51 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA18565; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:26:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (smtp.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.26]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A07217EBF for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from b8q7201 ([64.230.79.81]) by tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010210182610.LDPI11095.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@b8q7201> for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:26:10 -0500 X-Sender: sharonlh@go.listdelivery.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:24:57 -0500 To: From: Sharon Tucci Subject: Resource wanted Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: <20010210182610.LDPI11095.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@b8q7201> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This morning we've been having a high number of host not founds on sites that I know are normally valid. It's nothing to do with our servers....they are remote from me and when I do traceroutes on some of the domains, I'm getting an unable to resolve error before it even starts. (Not a time out like when it's a problem with an individual server.) I had a bookmark for a site that would give up-to-date info on connectivity issues. Problem is my bookmark file is corrupted. (Don't ya love how everything happens at the same time) Does anyone know the site I am talking about? Or at least any resource that will give updates on current Internet conditions? I know that one of the problems is that a hosting company OLM.net appears to be entirely down and they have a LOT of virtual clients. Traceroutes even on their domain is unable to resolve. The interesting thing - I also tried doing some nslookups querying different name servers. Almost all of the ones I tried on the east coast are timing out. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 10:52:54 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA18803; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:50:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.81]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8085917EBF for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:49:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org ([65.5.124.106]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010210184930.YSWI5980.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ee-nt.climber.org>; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:49:30 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20010210103753.00ab6310@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:41:58 -0800 To: JC Dill From: SRE Subject: Re: Lists and society Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010210072037.01ece940@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010209225107.00af7a80@pop.climber.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20010209173231.01e83d00@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <3A847C4B.2D7FD164@louisiana.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 10:52 PM 2/9/01, SRE wrote: >Or even easier, and more completely, with demime in the alias pipe: At 07:25 AM 2/10/01, JC Dill wrote: >Yes, and no. If the entire post was in the mime attachment, >you now have an empty post that has zero value to your list Nope. Demime extracts formatted plain text from HTML, turns plain text attachments into plain text, etc. The only thing you'll lose is (from my personal experience) the Melissa virus, the Love Bug, Word documents, and the like. >Further, if someone expected their post to be formatted, >by unformatting it you might have changed the content True. That's balanced, however, against all the people using mail tools that display the crud instead of displaying the formatting. My list charters are specific about posting only plain text, and they say it will be reformatted and stripped if you post anything else. It's just a matter of setting expectations. Not a single person has ever complained. >As I said earlier, I don't have control over either of the >majordomo servers that host my lists. As such, I can *only* >configure my lists via the email interface. Yeah, that's a problem. If possible, however, I think it's better to reformat into plain text than to bounce messages with attachments. Doing the best you can with what you have rather than punishing the poor AOL and Outlook people who haven't a clue how to turn off rich text, for example. SRE mailto:eckert@climber.org | http://www.climber.org/eckert/ Info on peak climbing email lists mailto:info@climber.org "A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." -- Adlai Stevenson From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 11:07:50 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA18601; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A02817EBF for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:31:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id KAA25777; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:31:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:31:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200102101831.KAA25777@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: murr@vnet.net Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: (message from murr rhame on Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:50:10 -0500 (EST)) Subject: Re: Quasi-meta-discussion Reply-To: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:50:10 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame At the risk of picking another fight with Chuq... I haven't had any significant problems with disruptive meta-discussions. Am I just lucky? Yes. You haven't lived until there are several threads going with the subject "the list from hell" and several more with your name in them talking about what a horrible person you are. Yes this happened to me. It was before I moderated the list and when all subs and unsubs had to be done manually by me. I had just moved cross-country and (by a series of bad luck) was homeless at the time. The people screaming the loudest about having too much list volume to go through were also the ones posting the most off-topic verbage. List technology--and my access to it--has improved a lot since then so this will never happen again. But what a nightmare at the time. Anyone else have a major problem with volunteer list-cops? With the exception of the above, no. I'm active in all my lists so no one ever feels the need to step in in my stead. Some people do post admin requests to teh list (like "please don't use HTML" or "please trim your posts") but I don't put that in the same category as playing list cop cause they're asking for consideration, not saying "this is the policy, obey it." Actually, I've been on the other end, sort of. A list that splintered off from mine had a listowner who was mostly absent. She rarely even read the list. She included me (and some others) on admin decisions and considered me part of the team that ran the list. She asked me several times to take on the role of list moderator. Not officially (I had no admin access to the software) but in terms of quelling flame wars and keeping people nice and on topic. I refused. I had my own list to run and most of the people on her list were there because my list didn't meet their needs (I was a welcome poster but not welcome as admin). Some lists are more volitile than others. The listowner has a lot to do with that, but not always. Sometimes it's just luck of the draw. Who's on there and how well they mesh with their fellow subscribers, the type of discussion, the topics, the range of political and religious beliefs of the subscribers, etc. My own list was almost flame-free for years. Then we got some disruptive people (see above) and, even after they were booted, we still had flame wars break out regularly. As soon as I started moderating the list, the flames stopped entirely. But I've only rejected perhaps a dozen posts for flame content in the last 3 years or so. If you haven't experienced some of the hellish list behavior others of us are talking about, count yourself lucky. But it's worth reading our stories and preparing, because even the nicest of lists can turn nasty in a heartbeat. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com http://www.tikvah.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 11:22:55 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA19108; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:08:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF1D017EBF for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:08:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [165.227.249.17] (ip17.proper.com [165.227.249.17]) by above.proper.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19129; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:08:11 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:07:22 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach , Tim Bowden , List-Managers From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Quo Vadis? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:02 AM -0800 2/10/01, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >Not closing your lists to subscriber-only posting is like coming home Friday >night, smelling gas from a leak, and deciding to wait to call the plumber >until Monday so you don't have to pay weekend rates. No, it's like having weighed (obvious) positive value and the (not so obvious to the outside world) negative aspects. The lists in question are IETF working groups and ex-working groups. The IETF has generally kept its lists open so that there is the same kind of cross-pollination that was mentioned earlier. There have been a few closed lists, and the closing has often caused problems such as important attempts at cross-pollination being shut off and the initiator not bothering to try a second time. > You're betting it won't >get worse, it's sure not going to get better on its own, and it's really >likely to blow up sooner or later, and the only guarantee you have is that >when it DOES blow up, you'll be on deadline, busy, or on vacation. Thanks for guarantee; how will you enforce it? :-) On all of these lists, the spam level is usually less than two a week. (Some of these lists have been around for >10 years, FWIW.) That's a lot to some people, but next to nothing for other people. Some lists have gotten hammered, and the easy solution was to change the list address. Some lists are, in fact, closed, with the WG chair having to do the moderating. In those cases, I usually get complaints from them after a while because Majordomo's bounces don't make it easy to repost. We all make tradeoffs, even about spam. (And for those of you who are about to call me a spam-coddler, please remember that IMC has been at the forefront of the anti-spam effort for over five years.) We have different constraints, just as there are different constraints on managers of sports-related lists and of abuse-victim lists. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 11:52:55 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA19360; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:32:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A9217EB2 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1AJQVj26628; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:26:31 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:31:33 -0800 Subject: Re: Resource wanted From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Sharon Tucci , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20010210182610.LDPI11095.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@b8q7201> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/10/01 10:24 AM, "Sharon Tucci" wrote: > I know that one of the problems is that a hosting > company OLM.net appears to be entirely down and they > have a LOT of virtual clients. Traceroutes even on > their domain is unable to resolve. If it helps, things seem okay here to OLM.net. It looks to be a connectivity issue you're seeing I'm not. Olm.net is in connecticut, based on the traceroute. > The interesting thing - I also tried doing some > nslookups querying different name servers. Almost > all of the ones I tried on the east coast are > timing out. Looks like you've lost routing to the east coast. There's gnarly weather all over, so there's probably a link that's failed on you. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Funny, I don't remember being absent minded. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 12:07:51 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA19768; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:03:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from green.syncronym.org (green.syncronym.org [216.118.17.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CE29017EB1 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:03:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 31023 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2001 20:03:07 -0000 Received: from citadel.in.taronga.com (10.0.0.43) by green.in.taronga.com with SMTP; 10 Feb 2001 20:03:07 -0000 Received: by citadel.in.taronga.com (Postfix, from userid 101) id D3A934142A; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:03:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Lists and society To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:03:06 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010210200306.D3A934142A@citadel.in.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Also, have you ever considered putting your list of lists in > categories? Yes, I've been meaning to do this for a long time, but the sheer amout of work it'll take stops me -- I can't seem to find the time, I'm hard-pressed to keep it updated as it is now. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 12:22:56 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA20003; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B2E517EB1 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1AKDPj28044; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:13:25 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:18:28 -0800 Subject: Re: Resource wanted From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Sharon Tucci Cc: List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20010210194704.LECA1381.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@b8q7201> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/10/01 11:44 AM, "Sharon Tucci" wrote: > Love the skirt :)) Kilt! It's a kilt! (and the answer, before you ask, is "gym shorts". > too much. Odd, only one of our servers was really affected by > this. The others saw little impact. It could also have been one server's DNS server getting funky data and it taking time for the cache to clear... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 12:23:56 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA19322; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:29:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFF0117EB2 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:29:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1AJMrj26533; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:22:53 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:27:55 -0800 Subject: Re: Quo Vadis? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Tim Bowden , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/10/01 11:07 AM, "Paul Hoffman / IMC" wrote: >> likely to blow up sooner or later, and the only guarantee you have is that >> when it DOES blow up, you'll be on deadline, busy, or on vacation. > > Thanks for guarantee; how will you enforce it? :-) I don't need to. In those cases where it happens, I'll point out I told you so. In those cases where it doesn't, my answer is "just wait..." -- a lot like the people who've been saying Apple is dead since, oh, 1984. They keep saying it, and if they ever happen to be right, they'll dislocate a shoulder patting themselves on the back... > We all make tradeoffs, even about spam. We sure do. And it's not MY list -- so I can comment, but I can't demand. I can', however, make my decisions based on what decision they make. And that's all I'm doing -- suggest and encourage. But you're correct, there are many reasons and approaches and they have to be traded off for the situation. (I'm tempted to make a comment about some of those Subjects We No Longer Talk About, but I won't, since we don't want to go there. But this idea about tradeoffs ought to be remembered if they ever come up again. But it won't... Grin) -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Q: Did God really create the world in seven days? A: He did it in six days and nights while living on cola and candy bars. On the seventh day he went home and found out his girlfriend had left him. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 12:40:44 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA19908; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from amys-answers.com (unknown [206.53.239.113]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 436EA17EB1 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:14:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from famroom [206.53.239.126] by amys-answers.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A06658310434; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:11:18 -0500 From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: Tim Pierce , Stephanie da Silva , List-Managers Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:14:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Lists and society Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com Message-ID: <3A855AD0.17510.EFDDD1B@localhost> In-reply-to: <20010210131315.J51811@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: ; from chuqui@plaidworks.com on Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 08:32:03AM -0800 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 10 Feb 2001, at 13:13, Tim Pierce wrote: > Maybe it sends a copy of itself to one person chosen randomly from > your address book each time you send mail. I don't know. But it > doesn't look like a ratware job. No, it doesn't work like that. If you are infected, what is does is send an email to someone you recently sent mail to. Sort of a piggyback thing. One way you can nail down the "culprit" is to look at the headers of the email. Many times it will list the originating server in the Message-ID. Compare that to recent emails and you will at least be able to start the process of elimination. Amy Amy ----- Amy Stinson Visit the Machine Knitting Internet Resource http://www.machine-knit.com MACHKNIT-SUBSCRIBE-REQUEST@LISTHOST.COM From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 12:55:48 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA19969; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:17:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B18417EB1 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:17:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1AKBfj28013; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:11:41 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:16:43 -0800 Subject: Re: Quasi-meta-discussion From: Chuq Von Rospach To: , Cc: List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200102101831.KAA25777@shell7.ba.best.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/10/01 10:31 AM, "Cyndi Norman" wrote: > Some lists are more volitile than others. The listowner has a lot to do > with that, but not always. Sometimes it's just luck of the draw. Who's on > there and how well they mesh with their fellow subscribers, And sometimes, all it takes is one. I've got one list that has been pretty much self-policing and trouble-free forever. An occasional troll, but for the most part, it just -- worked. Then Roger Maynard decided to join. The list still hasn't completely recovered, and probably won't, because we more or less lost a couple of key contributors before I really figured it out and got a handle on it. Roger's come onto the list under fake names since then, just to stir it up again. The first time I didn't catch it soon enough, now, frankly, I have the system alarmed to warn me if he even sniffs my site. So even if life is going fine -- you're just one troll away from chaos, and it can break out before you even realize it's happening. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 13:10:42 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA20445; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:53:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F1DA17EB1 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1AKrD720558; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:53:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA22822; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:53:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:53:11 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: Cyndi Norman Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Quasi-meta-discussion In-Reply-To: <200102101831.KAA25777@shell7.ba.best.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 10 Feb 2001, Cyndi Norman wrote: > If you haven't experienced some of the hellish list behavior > others of us are talking about, count yourself lucky. But > it's worth reading our stories and preparing, because even > the nicest of lists can turn nasty in a heartbeat. I have experienced occasional flame wars of varying levels. In one particularly nasty instance, I switched to full moderation for a few days to let things cool. This was after posting several public warnings and silencing a half dozen subscribers hadn't quelled the skirmish. I agree that the volatility of mailing lists is highly variable both from list to list and from day to day. It only takes one post from one subscriber to start the mother-of-all flame wars on a normally placid mailing list if they manage to hit the sweet spot. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 13:32:06 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA19528; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:47:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts5.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F5BF17EB1 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:47:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from b8q7201 ([64.230.79.81]) by tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010210194704.LECA1381.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@b8q7201>; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:47:04 -0500 X-Sender: sharonlh@go.listdelivery.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:44:37 -0500 To: Chuq Von Rospach From: Sharon Tucci Subject: Re: Resource wanted Cc: List-Managers In-Reply-To: References: <20010210182610.LDPI11095.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@b8q7201> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: <20010210194704.LECA1381.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@b8q7201> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Not long after I posted, everything seemed to go back to normal. Thanks for checking Chuq. (BTW.... looked at your site - so THAT's you! Love the skirt :)) I don't know if it was a local problem because the traceroutes and nslookups were done direct from our servers in VA as well. So maybe it was an issue about backbone out of the area OLM is out of? I dunno. Just glad that things are getting back to normal and VERY pleased this is a Saturday so the catch up on host not founds will not drag things down too much. Odd, only one of our servers was really affected by this. The others saw little impact. >If it helps, things seem okay here to OLM.net. It looks to be a connectivity >issue you're seeing I'm not. Olm.net is in connecticut, based on the >traceroute. > >> The interesting thing - I also tried doing some >> nslookups querying different name servers. Almost >> all of the ones I tried on the east coast are >> timing out. > >Looks like you've lost routing to the east coast. There's gnarly weather all >over, so there's probably a link that's failed on you. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 13:40:48 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA19736; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:00:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from green.syncronym.org (green.syncronym.org [216.118.17.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D490317EB1 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:00:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 30909 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2001 20:00:28 -0000 Received: from citadel.in.taronga.com (10.0.0.43) by green.in.taronga.com with SMTP; 10 Feb 2001 20:00:28 -0000 Received: by citadel.in.taronga.com (Postfix, from userid 101) id B69704142A; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:00:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Lists and society To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:00:27 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010210200027.B69704142A@citadel.in.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Maybe it sends a copy of itself to one person chosen randomly from >your address book each time you send mail. I don't know. But it >doesn't look like a ratware job. It supposedly monitors Internet activity, including email, news and web and mails to any email address it finds. If this is true, it would explain why I get so many. I have a web page that gets about 8000 vistors a day. Looking at some virus alert sites, I just discovered some messages I originally thought were spam appear to be a variant of the Hybris worm. Bleh. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 13:41:03 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA19265; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:22:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3056017EDC for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:22:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1AJGpj26336; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:16:51 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:21:53 -0800 Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Norbert Bollow Cc: List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200102101331.OAA01191@quill.thinkcoach.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/10/01 5:31 AM, "Norbert Bollow" wrote: > Hmm.. I don't think I'd want to use this for my "integrity in > politics" site, because I think for the target group of that > site, your system offers too many options, too many things you > can click on, it's just too difficult to get overall comfortable > with such a complicated system. That's one of the problems. It's a site in transition -- I want to continue supporting my mail lists as long as people want to use them, but I want to also start changing the focus to the newer (hopefully better) technologies. I'm not sure the site as it currently is written really helps users find stuff the way it should. Here's some stuff I think is wrong, or at least non-optimal. Sometimes it's easier to know it's broken than to fix it. It's a damn sight better than what it replaced, though, and a good stepping stone for refinement. The biggest problem is the archives, where access sucks. On one hand, I feel strongly archives need protection from the spambots and harvesters, on the other -- they need to be easy to use and access. Currently, access is too hidden, too confusing and slanted way too far to protection. I have some ideas on fixing that, but haven't had time to work on them. The front page is too static -- it needs to have 'stuff' on it to help people understand what's going on. I'm investigating CDF/RDF channel systems to allow me to build things like a "hot topics" listing that will automatically update onto the front page as a draw-in further into the site. If you go to the front page, there's very little there that makes the site interesting or encourages users to explore further -- that needs to change. Everything authenticates independently. A real problem, with n real solution. It's something I've been whacking on a lot, and my current thoughts are here: . I'm not sure what the best way to present some information is yet -- I keep going back and forth. My ToS/Rules are static HTML, my FAQs are forum areas. There are plusses and minuses to both approaches, but I'm convinced for site-content like that, I need to go one way or another. Trying to both depending on phase of the moon is arbitrary and I think it's confusing to the user. Right now, I'm leaning towards using the forums only for user content and static HTML for site content -- but I'm not sure that's right, either. Yet. > But I think I can use some of your ideas. If it gives you ideas to work from, then that's great. I've given up trying to have the answers -- but if I can give people hints that get them closer, that's great. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. "He doesn't have ulcers, but he's a carrier." From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 13:53:01 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA19829; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from green.syncronym.org (green.syncronym.org [216.118.17.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 02E3817EB1 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 31311 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2001 20:07:29 -0000 Received: from citadel.in.taronga.com (10.0.0.43) by green.in.taronga.com with SMTP; 10 Feb 2001 20:07:29 -0000 Received: by citadel.in.taronga.com (Postfix, from userid 101) id 05B0B4142A; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:07:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Lists and society To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:07:28 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010210200728.05B0B4142A@citadel.in.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Snow White, as fas as I can tell, ISN'T a "read the address book and forward >yourself" virus. The copies I've examined seem instead to have been >consciously sent to spam lists -- it's a script-kiddie job, not a >self-forwarder. According to some information I found on a virus site, it is: The modified WSOCK32.DLL file watches all Internet activity and attempts to mail a copy of the worm, in the form of a .EXE or .SCR file, to any valid e-mail address sent over the Internet connection, whether part of a e-mail message, web page, or newsgroup posting. AVERT cautions all users to delete unexpected attachments. W32/Hybris.gen@M is sent unknowingly by the infected user. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 19:54:10 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA25082; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:48:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84DDD17EB0 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:48:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14RnVC-0006cj-00; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:48:42 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Margaret Levine Young , List-Managers Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Thu, 08 Feb 2001 07:41:47 PST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:48:42 -0800 Message-ID: <25463.981863322@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 07:41:47 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/8/01 6:21 AM, "Margaret Levine Young" > wrote: >> The same thing has happened with list management that has >> happened in other parts of Internet usage -- we moved from a >> small cadre of computer-savvy, relatively experienced folks to a >> cross-section of humanity. > The priesthood is dead. That's a good thing. It also has its downsides. I prefer the new 'net, but I admired the old one. > Egroups (now yahoogroups) is the online KOA campground for all > this stuff, but that's not bad, either. People like to put it > down, and it has its issues, but it enables a lot of people who > can't afford a Hilton.... I'm not a fan of deliberate ghetto-sation (sp?), even if commercially sound/viable. >> Okay, so they need a lot of education. > But who's stepped up to educate? There are two sides to that question, with the first being the largest source of upset when the great unwashed invaded the 'net: They did not take advantage of the material already present, documented, catalogued, and prepared precisely so that individuals could and would educate themselves. Instead, they expected the second side of the question: Someone to take it upon themselves to teach them rather than they themselves taking the initiative. It is of course an impossible expectation given human nature. The problem is that it was also not an unreasonable expectation given the extant population.. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 20:09:13 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA25299; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:04:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE65717E8E for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14Rnk8-0005gn-00; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:04:08 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Tim Bowden , List-Managers Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Thu, 08 Feb 2001 20:34:58 PST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:04:08 -0800 Message-ID: <21871.981864248@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 20:34:58 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/8/01 4:38 PM, "Tim Bowden" wrote: >> I wonder if Usenet ever had this golden era. I don't know, I >> guess; > Yeah. To some degree it still is -- every generation thinks life > is great, and every previous generation thinks the new one screwed > things up and the good old days were better. Yep, there are also always reactive forces and the new motions they create. Much of the signal that was once on Usenet has moved to mailing lists and (sadly) weblogs (sad because they are single site and not distributed/archivable). As an example, I formed MUD-Dev as a direct reaction against the endless testosteronal outpourings on rgm*. Its only real promise: signal. Others have followed the same track with other topics. >> The Net back then was decidedly male, malevolent, and moronic, no >> matter they knew how to post articles properly. > As opposed to what it is today... One side effect of population growth, and in particular, increase in number of media-types, is that even rather tiny viewpoints (on terms of percentages) find that they have enough numbers to sustain a group, and can create enough presense that others of like mind may find them. There are booingly successful forums out there for niches that would have been entirely unsupportable 5 years ago -- there simply weren't enough people online, and as a result there were few visibility mechanisms. > No, I won't go there. Other than to say a lot of what you see on > the internet depends on what you put in and where you go > looking. Very true. > There are definitely areas of the net that agree with your > definition, to generalize the net to BE that is a horrible > overgeneralization. There are reasons that alt.sex.binaries.pictures.erotica and Co account for a couple orders of magnitude more traffic than the rest of Usenet put together. A simple stat filter put on a backbone router skimming for porn images suggests that the ratio is not *that* different for current 'net traffic.And yet, such streaks of brilliance as BonsaiKitten, Slashdot and TheEdge (http://www.edge.org/) still survive. >> Believe me, the influx of other humans, meaning women and those >> who may not have been older than sixteen but at least acted it, >> was a very definite improvement. > They were always there. Maybe they just saw you coming and > hid. (grin) Populations tend to group internally. More interestingly (I've found this a challenge for my own lists), high signal venues don't tend to attract memberships who then promote and advertise those forums. They're far more interested in purposive/constructive conversation than in finding additional audience. So you end up with sloid inward-facing packs of people around the high signal venues, and little leaking out to attract new potential members. I get more list members from one university professor who uses my main list and its posts in his courses than I do from any visibility steps I've ever taken. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 20:24:11 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA25453; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:19:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6961017EB0 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14Rnz4-0004oE-00; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:19:34 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Paul K- , amys@amys-answers.com, List-Managers Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:10:16 PST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:19:34 -0800 Message-ID: <18489.981865174@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:10:16 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I'm currently working on a piece on why mail lists suck for > community work. I suspect the base reason is simple: Email cones to you without ulterior action or participation required. It just appears, silently and without any effort of activity required on your part. Conversely web logs and BBS'es are only participated in by those who go out of their way to participate and thereby, for each participation and participation opportunity, have already implicitly said to themselves, "I'm interested in this, so I'm going to go look at it!". Whereas merely reading an email is too easy to do because some icon reads, "8859 Unread" (as mine currently does). > But like all sweeping generalizations, it's an imperfect rant -- > because that's a place where the mail list works wonderfully; as > long as it stays small and focussed. MUD-Dev is running ~1K members right now. Its still working well, and in fact is beginning to plex in interesting ways (such as a Usenix-style non-profit technical association, etc). Were membership to pass 10K I'm sure the current operation methods would no longer scale (hand moderated list). To that end I'm currently preparing other forums and media whose single intent is to soak up and occupy the noisy great unwashed (mostly web based) while MUD-Dev remains its exclusively-signal and comparitively elitist role off in the corner. My expectation (hope?) is that membership will rapidly grow for a while while the base populations of the noisy web stuff solidify (and starts breeding new signal sources), whereupon membership will fall steeply back to some middle value while the noise-preferring migrate to the web and MUD-Dev resumes its slow and ultimately static growth curve. What to do longer term? I'm not sure. Maintaining a high signal single-topic discussionary forum for a population measured in tens of thousands (figure 5% posters, which is my current figure) hasn't really been attempted before. > Unfortunately, I think mail lists scale horribly, and so you end > up with problems sooner or later -- but only if you succeed and > grow your audience. If you suck or fail and stay small.. (grin) Bingo. The human factors and dynamics are downright scary. >> I hear so much, how good NewsGroups are, but I find the NG >> environment -- tech wise -- is less well-controlled. > NNTP -- the technology -- is a great technology. USENET -- the > nework built on NNTP -- sucks. But NNTP in a non-propogating or > limited propogation system can be very powerful and useful. > It depends on the implementation and administration. NNTP as a local distribution and presentaion method for mailing lists of localised general interest is a superb tool. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 20:39:10 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA25499; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:23:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF8F17EB0 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14Ro2X-0006XG-00; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:23:09 -0800 To: Norbert Bollow Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well In-Reply-To: Message from Norbert Bollow of "Fri, 09 Feb 2001 11:58:45 +0100." <200102091058.LAA32213@quill.thinkcoach.com> References: <200102091058.LAA32213@quill.thinkcoach.com> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:23:09 -0800 Message-ID: <25124.981865389@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:58:45 +0100 Norbert Bollow wrote: > Do you have ideas for addressing the scaling problems of large > mailing lists? The problems are not technical but human. > I've been thinking about this a lot, and the best idea that I've > come up with is to use an edited ezine format for internet-based > conversations that are intended to attract many participants. A > live example of this idea (still in its early stages) is online at > http://integrity-in-politics.com/ > What do you think about this approach? Its a format question. The Edited magazine form works very well for small populations of authors and more lecture/pontificating structures rather than discussionary. Handling scaling of a discussion based forum for very large numbers is a problem, especially when the normal solution of fracting the subject into sub-topics doesn't/can't be applied. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 23:29:03 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA27250; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:20:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1775417EB0 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:20:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1B7FDj12779; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:15:13 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:20:15 -0800 Subject: Re: What happened? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: J C Lawrence Cc: Margaret Levine Young , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <25463.981863322@kanga.nu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/10/01 7:48 PM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: >> The priesthood is dead. That's a good thing. >=20 > It also has its downsides. I prefer the new 'net, but I admired the > old one. I go back to the time when you could post a party invitation to net.general with your home address and phone number, and feel safe doing it. And not have the riot squad show up to control the crowd, either. (oh, and yes, I did that... Back in the Good Old Days, we used to throw parties. Heck, we were doing online parties before we discovered usenet -- and my best friend from back then, and his wife, who he met while I was dating her, just celebrated their 20th anniversary. For those of you who think online romances are new things... Grin) The net's changed. I miss the old days when it was smaller, more intimate, better focussed, less noisy. That's to some degree the kind of environment I'm trying to re-invent these days with stuff like hockeyfanz. Not big, not famous, not yahoo, not money-making, not a lot of stuff -- but fun and interesting. At the same time, though, the current net is a lot of fun, too= , in many different ways, and trying to bodysurf the cyberwave of growth and change and keep up with what's going on (much less useful and innovative) has been one hell of a rush, too. >> Egroups (now yahoogroups) is the online KOA campground for all >> this stuff, but that's not bad, either. People like to put it >> down, and it has its issues, but it enables a lot of people who >> can't afford a Hilton.... >=20 > I'm not a fan of deliberate ghetto-sation (sp?), even if > commercially sound/viable. I'm not sure why you think my referring to it as a KOA campground is "ghettoizing" it. I didn't intend it that way -- instead, I was trying to point out that "Yahoo" isn't a community. It's a bunch of independent group= s all hanging out in the same place, renting space. Many of those groups are communities, but yahoo as the encompassing entity sure isn't. >>> Okay, so they need a lot of education. >=20 >> But who's stepped up to educate? > They did not take advantage of the material already present, I think that's a generalization -- a stereotyping. Many of them DID, in fact, take advantage of that material. And some of them didn't, but in all honesty, that's ALWAYS been a problem on the net since the early days. I'm not even sure it was more common in this latest wave. It's just this latest wave was much bigger, so the percentages could be the same and the noise still got huge. But there's another factor at work here, too. A factor similar to the one that lead to the downfall of the Backbone Cabal of usenet -- the conflict between the people who were already here and had things set up the way they wanted, and the people who came after and saw different ways to use the tools we'd built, and different interests than the ones we thought they ought to be interested in. To use an analogy, we were the parents, listening to swing music, and our kids came along and decided they preferred rock -- and we as parents hated this new music and tried to stomp it into the ground, which of course didn'= t work. In fact, the new music built on what came before, but because it wasn't what we thought they OUGHT to want to do, we tried to shun it. And eventually, they tuned us out, did what they wanted anyway, and -- well, th= e world didn't come to an end. And a similar thing is going on here. Some people don't take advantage of what's there because they're clueless or na=EFve or lazy -- but another group isn't, because it's irrelevant. We notice them because they DON'T fit in -- and don't pay attention to all the new ones that do. The clueless, lazy and na=EFve have always been with us, since about user # 200 or so. The ones who take what we've built and turn it into their own vision have been, too -- that's where the innovation comes from (but don't assume I think all innovation is good; it's where warez came from, for instance, too). Having now survived a number of these generational things online, I see the situation repeat itself with variations of a theme -- an= d while it's not fun being the group made irrelevant, it's a positive evolution of things (it's one reason why I'm now pretty serious about reinventing myself and my stuff -- because I want to be part of the change; being the Backbone Cabal once is enough, thanks -- I like to learn from my mistakes).=20 --=20 Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ =3D =3D ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. When an agnostic dies, does he go to the "great perhaps"? From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 23:53:00 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA27577; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:50:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D51A217EB0 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:50:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1B7icj13593; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:44:38 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:49:41 -0800 Subject: Re: What happened? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: J C Lawrence Cc: Tim Bowden , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <21871.981864248@kanga.nu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/10/01 8:04 PM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: >> Yeah. To some degree it still is -- every generation thinks life >> is great, and every previous generation thinks the new one screwed >> things up and the good old days were better. > > Yep, there are also always reactive forces and the new motions they > create. Yup. A lot of my energy right now is aimed at trying to find ways to promote and encourage what I'll call the "club scene" environment of the internet. Now that the internet has mainstreamed in a huge way, between AOL, Yahoo and the other big muthers of the net, I think it's really important that we don't forget that it's still possible for there to be a strong, viable "alternative net" -- in fact it's a lot easier online than, say, the alternative music scene in San Francisco, where rents are driving a lot of venues out. I don't want us to forget that we CAN be small, personal and successful -- that while Yahoo is successful (to date) and Amazon is successful (if not yet profitable) -- that isn't necessarily the only definition of success. And frankly, that's where most of the innovation for future generations of the net will come from. It's the core of the open source movement, and you see things like weblogs, like jabber, like python, like /. And its clones. Some of which will turn into Big Things, some won't. But these are the incubators of the future -- and the place where those of us who don't want corporatized pablum can go to let our hair down and get personal. Since I've done my part to make the net big and successful, I now feel somewhat obligated to help make sure the small parts don't get run over and dismembered along the way. Fortunately, it gets ever easier and cheaper to build these little outposts -- we just need to make sure people remember they can, and they do... > Much of the signal that was once on Usenet has moved to > mailing lists and (sadly) weblogs And places like hockeyfanz, and etc -- I was once one of the core Usenet hacks, way back when. Today -- I've moved all of my stuff off, and I view Usenet as nothing more than a place that attracts all of the people I really don't want infesting my stuff. It's the tar baby that makes the briar patch safer for the intelligent people... (and yes, I know there are outposts of sanity on usenet. But these days, they ARE outposts, no more than that) > One side effect of population growth, and in particular, increase in > number of media-types, is that even rather tiny viewpoints Anyone who's been involved in SF fandom for a period of time knows about the invasion of the media types. It's a familiar theme... But without completely repeating my last diatribe on how generations see things differently, ti's a case of new groups building upon the foundations laid by others -- but not being those others, so the building changes style as floors are added. Think of it in terms of each new owner remodelling the house to fit their current style. The one thing I think we need to make sure each generation understands (or some key element of it, at least), is that they need to leave a foundation that whoever comes next can use, too, so things keep building and evolving. The guys who wrote B news, and those of us who Caballed Usenet long ago, if they were plopped into today's net after hibernating a few years, would be stunned. But that's not necessarily a bad thing... > There are booingly successful forums out there for > niches that would have been entirely unsupportable 5 years ago -- > there simply weren't enough people online, and as a result there > were few visibility mechanisms. IMHO, this visibility issue is still a problem, despite what we have today. (but I won't go that direction right now...) > There are reasons that alt.sex.binaries.pictures.erotica and Co > account for a couple orders of magnitude more traffic than the rest > of Usenet put together. Because it's a moderately anonymous way to get stuff that's socially marginal. But then, porn has under most circumstances led technological revolutions (it put the VCR on the map; the DVD player is one of the first significant changes that porn didn't lead in, but I think that's because it's evolutionary from the VCR, not revolutionary. And it was well marketed...) Of course, on all my news systems, the binaries never even get in the front door, so we don't have those problems or issues, and our news volume is quite manageable... > Populations tend to group internally. More interestingly (I've > found this a challenge for my own lists), high signal venues don't > tend to attract memberships who then promote and advertise those > forums. I think that's true. I'd never considered it quite that way. It makes an interesting issue on marketing of lists and communities. Hmm. > They're far more interested in purposive/constructive > conversation than in finding additional audience. So you end up > with sloid inward-facing packs of people around the high signal > venues, and little leaking out to attract new potential members. Yup. And you run into the issue of people not wanting to screw up their power bases. Those who are in that list "royalty" have no over-reaching reason to want fresh blood to arrive, since they may come and take over part of the list, or change the dynamics of the social group. Heck, I resigned an organization this year that I've been a member (and active volunteer to) for pretty damn much forever. The reasons were numerous, but one of the defining moments when I realized I had to get out was when I realized the organization was seriously broken -- and there were too many people who wanted to KEEP it broken, because they were controlling their little turfs and pieces, and maintaining that was more important than making the organization useful and there was no way to fix things without shooting enough bodies that I realized it couldn't be done without killing the organization. So instead of trying, I got out, so I wouldn't be tempted to try anyway). I see that same kind of attitude on some lists: who cares if everyone's fighting, since I'm on top and it flows down! to a degree, that's the domain of the troll.... > I get more list members from one university professor who uses my > main list and its posts in his courses than I do from any visibility > steps I've ever taken. And I think that's the key to succeeding in these smaller net-venues. Find the right places for word-of-mouth to work. And it's not always easy to know what they are ahead of time... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. You know, I Remember When I Used To Speak In Capitals, Too. It's addictive. It also encourages people to poke sticks at you. Justifiably. (chuq, 1992) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 00:08:01 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA27785; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:06:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50B717EB0 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:05:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1B809j13923; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:00:09 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:05:11 -0800 Subject: Re: What happened? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: J C Lawrence Cc: Paul K- , , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <18489.981865174@kanga.nu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/10/01 8:19 PM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: > I suspect the base reason is simple: > > Email cones to you without ulterior action or participation > required. It just appears, silently and without any effort of > activity required on your part. I don't really agree. I think the base problem is that email is inherently an invasive technology, and while if you're interested in a topic you want that invasiveness (because it's a passive state to have it pushed to you, which is less energy expended), that only works until the level of invasiveness crosses whatever limit you put on tolerance -- and which point it becomes a pain in the ass and you start complaining about it. That's why the first thing that happens when a mail list gets on an interesting topic and message volume peaks is people start screaming to make everyone shut up. Because the volume peaks over their tolerance level. And that's sad, because it seems that we'd WANT interesting conversations to be encouraged, not discouraged, but that isn't what seems to happen. So when a list "goes off" and starts digging into something, the tendency is to try to throttle it, which discourages trying to get involved in fun topics. It's a bad negative feedback cycle, and I know of no real way to avoid it or get around it. These days, I try to manage it through a sliding scale -- the busier a list is, the less tolerant I am of drift. The quieter it is, the more I let a list wander and ponder. But that means I'm ultimately managing to message volume, not messsage quality, relevance or interest levels. And I think that's self-defeating. But to me, the community is built through the side-channel discussions -- the areas of topic drift around the core subject where people let their hair down and get to know each other. But you have to manage around that to deal with the "just the facts, mam" subscriber who want strict topic enforcement, and the "will you shut up with all this trivia crap!" people who go off when the message volume gets too high. Lotsa fun -- because, basically, both of those camps are ALSO right. List management is a job where, basically, no matter what decision you make, including no decision, someone will end up pissed off. So management comes down to deciding which groups to encourage, which to piss off, and how to nudge the list in directions you want to take and away from ones you don't, all while not pissing off the wrong people at the wrong time, or the same people too often... > Conversely web logs and BBS'es are only participated in by those > who go out of their way to participate and thereby, for each > participation and participation opportunity, have already > implicitly said to themselves, And that's not bad, either, but it's one reason I'm so interested in the web/email hybrids, so there are continuing remiinders of what's going on to encourge folks to visit, but not so much volume that you go over that "too much noise" line and turn your site into an active canker sore by being too noisy and interruptive.... And the key to THAT is granularity and flexibility to allow the user to define their acceptable levels of invasion into their mailbox, and allowing them to set up the mix of push and pull information they prefer. > Were > membership to pass 10K I'm sure the current operation methods would > no longer scale (hand moderated list). I've had to reinvent my systems (and myself) numerous times, as the lists scale up and down, and as the populations morph (and as I grow up and hopefully learn from my mistakes, also). I find a given system seems to work for about 18 months, and then needs to be looked at really hard -- documentation tends to grow and bloat over time, to name just once problem. But audiences change, and you find that assumptions you make about what they know now may or may not be true later -- it wasn't that long ago that the assumption was you new majordomo and didn't have a browser. Now, you assume they have a browser, but that mail list server commands will confuse the hell out of them. A year from now? Who knows? I don't... > The human factors and dynamics are downright scary. The tech stuff is easy. The people issues aren't -- but they're a fun challenge. And there are no single right answers (and a multitude of wrong ones...) -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. I tried to get a life once, but they were out of stock. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 00:38:01 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA27938; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:16:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8912F17E8E for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:16:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1B8AXj14202; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:10:33 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:15:35 -0800 Subject: Re: Lists and society From: Chuq Von Rospach To: J C Lawrence Cc: Istvan Berkeley , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <18047.981875896@kanga.nu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/10/01 11:18 PM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: > There are two particular dangers with HTML email (if assuming no > other attachment types): > > 1) Privacy loss, for instance via a bug image referenced by the > HTML on a foreign site (ie they get to track who reads the > message, where, etc). > > 2) The ability for the HTML to invoke executable content > stored on remote systems (eg a mislabelled link). Yup. But I think it's safe to assume that any user reading HTML email also is reading HTML off of web sites, and if they're willing to accept those risks by going to web sites, the risks are no different from HTML-enabled mail lists. I don't see the need to be MORE secure than other things they accept as standard usage of the net -- I do see the need to be AS secure, and to be as secure as I can be without gutting functionality. Zero risk systems generally have little gain -- it's like investments. If you're completely risk-averse, you'll never get rich or go broke. So I don't want to be 100% risk-averse -- I think it's important to manage that risk, but I don't see that it's an advantage to try to avoid things where stuff MIGHT happen just because it might, unless the results are catastrophic (and viruses are by definition catastrophic. Pixel-trackers are annoying, but also a general fact of life today, and not catastrophic or destructive). -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. "When his IQ reaches 50, he should sell." From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 00:52:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA27861; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:12:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E48117EB0 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:12:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1B86Cj14147; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:06:12 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:11:14 -0800 Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well From: Chuq Von Rospach To: J C Lawrence , Norbert Bollow Cc: List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <25124.981865389@kanga.nu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/10/01 8:23 PM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: > The Edited magazine form works very well for > small populations of authors and more lecture/pontificating > structures rather than discussionary. Which was something I experimented back in the late 80's with OtherRealms, one of the earlier online zines (which is now finally back online as part of www.chuqui.com). Essentially, you're grafting parts of the traditional publishing environment onto the virtual world -- which cuts noise dramatically, improves focus and vision, but is very time intensive for the editor(s). For many things, the tradeoff is probably worth it. Today, if I were doing it from scratch, I'd seriously consider doing an unmoderated/moderated hybrid, with an open free-for-all web board, and an edited mailing list that combines both editorial material and links into key parts of the open systems. (hmm. Can anyone think of a place currently using that setup? I can't, offhand...) > Handling scaling of a > discussion based forum for very large numbers is a problem, > especially when the normal solution of fracting the subject into > sub-topics doesn't/can't be applied. I think you run into the lecture hall problem. You can keep building larger lecture halls -- the engineeering isn't an issue. But how do you keep putting more and more students into one large lecture hall and allow them to be heard above the din? One approach I find interesting but haven't really researched is to start building lots of SMALL lecture halls, each of which fits N students, and each has the same video feed from the professor, but each small hall then breaks off for an independent discussion. And when it's all done, the highlights of each independent room could potentially be collated for distribution to everyone... Hmm. Thoughts? -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. "When his IQ reaches 50, he should sell." From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 01:22:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA28179; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:44:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 645E917EB0 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:44:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14391 invoked by uid 50); 11 Feb 2001 08:44:36 -0000 To: List-Managers Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well References: In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:46:51 -0800" From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: 11 Feb 2001 00:44:36 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 67 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > On 2/10/01 12:28 AM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: >> Most of the web-only solutions attempt to reinvent solved problems >> badly (such as threading). NNTP has had over a decade to get some of >> this stuff right and has learned at least a little from its mistakes. > The more you talk about this and the more I think about it, the more I'm > intrigued. Do you have any sites you can point me to where they've done > this? I want to go do some research.... Most of the people who I know to be working on this are in Europe, where Usenet continues to be more generally popular than in the United States so far as I can tell. I think part of why is because the non-English newsgroups have managed to keep a better newsgroup creation system and a better signal to noise ratio than the English groups, but that's a guess based on some second-hand observations. Take a look at for starters; that's the most recent PHP-based news reader implementation that I've seen and I know a few sites that are using it in situations where other sites may use web boards. (One of the advantages over mailing lists is that it's really quick and easy to create a new newsgroup on your own local news server; it's quite reasonable to create one per topic provided that your interface exposes them easily to readers. It's even reasonable to let more "trusted" users create their own.) There are some other ones out there, but I don't have other URLs for you. > You aren't planning to implement the Accolade header after all these > years? (grin) Not personally, no. :) But one of the nice things about the news overview model is that it's basically a meta-information database about the articles, which are left unaltered. Sure, on a regular news server, nearly all of that information is extracted from the headers (except for bytes and lines), but there's no need for it to be that way. There's already code in INN for automatically generated keywords, and I've been thinking about generalizing that to allow Perl or Python hooks to generate arbitrary additional information to drop into overview. (INN can now embed Python as well as Perl, incidentally; I seem to recall that you like that language.) > I've actually been heavily researching the slashdot style boards the > last few weeks. They have some interesting plusses and minuses. I find I > prefer the variant at www.kuro5hin.org better than slashdot itself, and > they aren't really community tools (they're information concentrators), Agreed. The discussion model is really quite poor, and only marginally better than the nearly worthless "talk-back" sections that a lot of mainstream news agencies with web presences have started adding to their stories. It *is* at least threaded, which is a plus, but many of the comments on both Slashdot-style and "talk-back"-style comment boards are more at the IRC level than the Usenet or mailing list response level. This ties into my general impression of most web discussion boards as strongly discouraging responses of any real length, largely due to serious interface problems when you try to use a web form to write anything containing substantial content. (I've yet to see a web browser that actually has an adequate built-in editor.) This is one of the things I very much like about Usenet and mailing lists; it's pretty rare to see a response of the length of *any* of those on this thread on a web board, let alone a whole dialog with multiple levels of quoting. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 02:11:40 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id CAA00332; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 02:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8963417EB0 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 02:04:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14520 invoked by uid 50); 11 Feb 2001 10:04:24 -0000 To: List-Managers Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well References: In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:11:14 -0800" From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: 11 Feb 2001 02:04:24 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > One approach I find interesting but haven't really researched is to > start building lots of SMALL lecture halls, each of which fits N > students, and each has the same video feed from the professor, but each > small hall then breaks off for an independent discussion. And when it's > all done, the highlights of each independent room could potentially be > collated for distribution to everyone... > Hmm. Thoughts? The Perl 6 development lists tried a model like that, partly modelled on the IETF working group idea, but with an idea that the work done in the subgroups would be summarized on the main lists. It didn't work very well, primarily because for the most part the summaries never got written. (I was guilty of that myself for the one list that I tried to chair.) Writing summaries or collecting highlights is a *LOT* of work. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 03:44:11 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id DAA03119; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 03:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from foobar.noderunner.net (foobar.noderunner.net [199.34.34.27]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4152B17EB0 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 03:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from kludge (kludge.noderunner.net [64.38.150.70]) by foobar.noderunner.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 2EB35B62A0; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 03:37:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001601c09420$50446da0$46962640@noderunner.net> From: "Rachel Blackman" To: "Chuq Von Rospach" Cc: "List-Managers" References: Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 03:46:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > One approach I find interesting but haven't really researched is to start > building lots of SMALL lecture halls, each of which fits N students, and > each has the same video feed from the professor, but each small hall then > breaks off for an independent discussion. And when it's all done, the > highlights of each independent room could potentially be collated for > distribution to everyone... I actually did this for one thing once; it was a little contest I was helping to run. Sort of like the 'Programmer of the Month' contests, but a one-shot. I created mailing lists for each of the teams, and one overall meta-list. This was using Listar, so I had the cc-lists and union-lists configuration options. cc-lists are used for outgoing mail; the subscribers of all the cc-lists are treated as though they were subscribed to the master list with the settings they have on the cc-list they are on. (Duplicates are removed.) Union-lists is the same, for incoming checks such as posting permissions. At any rate, this contest meta-list had cc-lists and union-lists of all the sub-lists. This meant that announcements would be posted to the meta-list (and thus received by all teams) and if a team had an announcement or question, they could post to the main list (since the subscriber base was a union of all the other subscriber sets, automatically). The announcements were automatically given to all the teams, who were responsible for keeping their own lists up-to-date (and thus by definition, the meta-list was automatically up-to-date), and they could discuss team-specific stuff on their team list. It worked fairly well. Another example of this is the listar-announce list. In addition to allowing subscriptions, it has cc-lists to the 'listar-dev' and 'listar-support' lists. Announcements that need to go to the entire Listar userbase are sent to the listar-announce list (which is restricted to only developers posting on it). Duplicates are automatically removed; no matter which of (or how many of) the Listar lists you are on, you get only one copy of the announcement. The Northwest C++ User's Group (nwcpp) has nwcpp-announce and nwcpp-discuss as well. Overall, I have found that the 'meta-list and sub-lists' architecture works very well for a lot of things. The problem I would still love to be able to solve effectively is a way of creating sub-lists under a meta-list on the fly. I can see ways to do it under certain mailservers by extending the mailing list address, but I want to find a mailserver-independent way of doing it. Unfortunately, this isn't as easily done unless you have a way to guarantee some information in the outgoing mail will be carried back on replies. --Rachel From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 08:24:24 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA05757; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:14:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from amys-answers.com (unknown [206.53.239.113]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE7F17E8C for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from famroom [206.53.239.126] by amys-answers.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A9AC1AE20428; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 11:11:24 -0500 From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: "List-Managers" Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 11:14:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Just for Grins Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com Message-ID: <3A867418.18778.3B4B62E@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just for grins I set up a list on Yahoogroups (KOA of the Internet) to see what's involved in managing a list there. I am running LISTSERV's little brother, LITE here, but even though I *really* wish LISTSERV would come down out of the alps on their licensing prices, it still offer far more flexibility for managing lists than does Yahoogroups. I like the banning (but filter=also does it, too). Attachment handling is poor. It's all or nothing at least with RTF, while even LITE allows html and rtf to be stripped as well as other kinds of attachments rather than rejecting the message outright. You can't reject certain kinds of attachments, while accepting others, like you can with LISTSERV or LITE. It also offers no individual moderation, such as NOPOST or REVIEW (which isn't available in LITE, either), nor does it appear to automatically handle bounces, which LITE does to a certain extent, providing your MTA hands them the bounce in a way LISTSERV recognizes. There appears to be no way to access the archives or search by email (you can't search with LITE either way) nor can you set your email to NOMAIL or digest or individual mails except by web interface, which requires that you have a YAHOO ID, which a number of people on those lists consider the Yahoo ID to be an intrusion (apparently not realizing that egroups has been yahoo since August). There is no ability to set the size of digests (at least as far as I can see) in order to accomodate those people who can't handle 200k digests (like AOL). There is no daily post limitation or daily threshold, which I have used from time to time to keep exuberant posters under check. It's my opinion that any seasoned list manager would feel kneecapped by the limitations of the management possibilities on Yahoogroups, but on the other hand, many unseasoned listowners would feel overwhelmed by the possibilities presented by a package even as management lite as LITE. Generally speaking, I set up every list on my site and do the tweaking for the owner. They just watch over the thing. Amy Listhost: Home of the original Machine Knitting lists http://www.listhost.com/lists/index.html From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 09:24:33 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA06441; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:19:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.82]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A33BB17EB4 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:19:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org ([65.5.124.106]) by femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010211171837.OQDJ13343.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ee-nt.climber.org>; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:18:37 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20010211090236.00ab0eb0@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:04:21 -0800 To: JC Dill From: SRE Subject: Re: Lists and society Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010210184520.01e6c150@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010210103753.00ab6310@pop.climber.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20010210072037.01ece940@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20010209225107.00af7a80@pop.climber.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20010209173231.01e83d00@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <3A847C4B.2D7FD164@louisiana.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 06:47 PM 2/10/01, JC Dill wrote: >I've had list submissions where the entire context of the post was an im If that fits the list charter, you certainly wouldn't want demime! >If you give a man a fish, he eats for day. If you teach a man to fish, >he eats for a lifetime. I consider the education effort well worth it, >and my lists seem to thrive. Women too! (I wonder whether more fish are caught by women or men worldwide?) Anyway, if you're talking about teaching people to post plain text, another useful analogy is refusing to do business in any language other than English: You do a brisk business in some countries, no business at all in others. Provide a translator, and you do business EVERYWHERE. That's what demime is. Some people will NOT learn to "speak" plain text, others will NOT stay on a list where rich text is posted. There IS a lowest common denominator, and teaching or taboo_headers are not involved! I used to educate people about MIME and HTML. Life is much happier when machines do what machines are best at (fixing stuff), leaving people free to do what THEY are best at (thinking and writing). We could teach people to spell correctly also, but spell checkers free our minds for better pursuits (like worrying about GRAMMAR checkers). SRE mailto:eckert@climber.org | http://www.climber.org/eckert/ Info on peak climbing email lists mailto:info@climber.org "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 10:24:23 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA06950; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:08:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from one.elistx.com (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3D2817E8C for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:08:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from two.elistx.com (two.elistx.com [209.116.254.209]) by eListX.com (PMDF V6.0-24 #44856) with ESMTP id <0G8L005K2UFNP8@eListX.com> for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:09:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:11:06 -0500 (EST) From: James M Galvin Subject: can technology help? X-Sender: galvin@two.elistx.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I was catching up on the last day or so of messages and was going to reply to a couple of specific messages but I got caught up in reading and got to really thinking about the various experiences and opinions that have been expressed. I think Chuq said it best when he essentially said it's all subjective. No matter which technology you choose to use or are stuck with using, it its effectiveness can be directly correlated to how pro-active its owner is. And then I got to thinking about who really is the "owner". I made a comment at one point that mailing lists are not inflexible, it's the management interface. I think this comment applies generally but I also think there are two management interfaces to consider: admin and subscriber. Somewhere along the way in my reading I realized that it's not about mailing lists versus newsgroups versus chat rooms versus whatever, it's about an "owner" achieving their goals or realizing their expectations. And there are at least two legitimate "owners" of any discussion: there is the person who manages the conduit and the person who receives what's dumped in it. When their goals and expectations overlap perfectly I don't think it matters which technology you use, recognizing that some technologies will support certain goals and expectations better than others. But when they have even a few differences -- e.g., anyone can post to my discussion, including spammers, versus I don't want spam -- then the choice of technology can matter a great deal, because some technologies support the conduit manager (e.g., mailing lists) better than the subscriber (e.g., newsgroups). I'm explicitly setting aside add-on support that's not an integral part of a base techology. So, what we really need is a technology or service that gives the conduit owner fine-grained control of the operation and content of a discussion, *and* gives the same control to a subscriber for controlling their inflow. Chuq, isn't this essentially what you're after in your experiment? Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Cure For What (M)ails You: From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 10:39:29 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA06941; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:07:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8488017E8C for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:06:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.2] ([160.43.47.9]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1BI6bu56979 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:06:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:07:38 -0500 From: Tom Neff To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: security of HTML mail Message-ID: <2644314799.981896858@[192.168.0.2]> In-Reply-To: <200102110900.BAA28465@honor.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.6 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Yup. But I think it's safe to assume that any user reading HTML email also > is reading HTML off of web sites, and if they're willing to accept those > risks by going to web sites, the risks are no different from HTML-enabled > mail lists. It is not safe to assume that users who receive HTML email are necessarily going to be reading it with the SAME software they use to browse the Web. HTML-smart email clients frequently include their own renderers, or embed controls from specific browsers that may not be the user's choice for her or his own Web surfing. This means that any security measures taken by the user (or his/her net helper) to encourage safe Web browsing, e.g. filtering proxies, Java/Javascript limits, cookie control, etc, may not be in effect when the emailed HTML is displayed. The potential (and possibly undisclosed) need to duplicate security measures across packages lowers security and increases risk. It is also not safe to assume that a user surfing the Web and a user opening the Inbox are going to be comparably vigilant about side effects and security. One is the result of active curiosity, the other can come as a complete surprise amid the plain-text minutiae of the day. > I don't see the need to be MORE secure than other things they > accept as standard usage of the net -- I do see the need to be AS secure, > and to be as secure as I can be without gutting functionality. Zero risk > systems generally have little gain -- it's like investments. If you're > completely risk-averse, you'll never get rich or go broke. There is also the difference between what, in general, ought to be "allowed" (whatever that means) for email between individuals, versus what we, as list managers with communities to protect and develop, ought to want and install. I believe that in the vast majority of communities, members' interests are best served by remaining conservative on the listware angle. An unhealthy emphasis on whiz-bang functionality places geek pride above topic-centered clarity and comfort, and for the average list with a purpose for existing, that's not great news. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 10:54:25 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA07224; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:37:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from ripco.com (pop2a.ripco.com [209.100.227.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE44417E8C for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:37:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by ripco.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f1BIcIu00507 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:38:18 -0600 (CST) From: "David W. Tamkin" Message-Id: <200102111838.f1BIcIu00507@ripco.com> Subject: Re: Just for Grins Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:38:18 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List-Managers) In-Reply-To: <3A867418.18778.3B4B62E@localhost> from "Amy Stinson" at Feb 11, 2001 11:14:32 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Amy Stinson opened a test list on Yahoo Groups and reported, | It also offers no individual moderation, such as NOPOST or REVIEW It does. You can set individual members to No Post or for moderation. (It just has a different name from "review.") You can also set them to bypass moderation on a moderated list. Also, one can make an unmoderated list de- fault to moderating new subscribers until the listowner (or a sufficiently privileged comoderator) changes the setting for a member who is ready to be let post without moderation. | ... nor does it appear to automatically handle bounces ... Yes, it does, though you might prefer to handle them differently. | There appears to be no way to access the archives or search by email True. Viewing and searching the archives requires logging into the web site with a Yahoo ID unless the list's archives are set up for public (rather than members-only) access. | ... nor can you set your email to NOMAIL or digest or individual mails | except by web interface ... Yes, you can. Sending any messsage to listname-nomail@yahoogroups.com, listname-digest@yahoogroups.com, or listname-normal@yahoogroups.com will perform those tasks without a visit to the web site nor need for a Yahoo ID. | There is no ability to set the size of digests ... True. Digests are sent out once a day, with additional issues during the day whenever twenty-five posts accumulate. | It's my opinion that any seasoned list manager would feel kneecapped | by the limitations of the management possibilities on Yahoogroups, No quarrel there (that is, if being kneecapped is something like being hamstrung) ... | ... but on the other hand, many unseasoned listowners would feel | overwhelmed by the possibilities presented by a package even as | management lite as LITE. ... nor there either. Occasionally a listowner does migrate from something like Yahoo Groups or Topica to something that we on list-managers would consider a list management package and feels very liberated; often, though, one will look into it and decide that it's just too much adjustment or learning. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 11:09:25 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA07480; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:59:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.greatbasin.net (mail.greatbasin.net [207.228.35.39]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A5F17EAF for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:59:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtcportable (rno-max3-50.gbis.net [207.228.60.242]) by mail.greatbasin.net (8.9.3-MySQL-0.2.3b/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19553; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:59:35 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim Poston" Organization: The Information Dirt Road To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:57:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Just for Grins (Yahoogroups) Reply-To: Jim.Poston@bigfoot.com Cc: "Amy Stinson" Message-ID: <3A867004.16989.CAC788D@localhost> In-reply-to: <3A867418.18778.3B4B62E@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11 Feb 2001, at 11:14, Amy Stinson wrote: > Just for grins I set up a list on Yahoogroups (KOA of the Internet) to > see what's involved in managing a list there. > Attachment handling is poor. It's all or nothing at least with > RTF, while even LITE allows html and rtf to be stripped as well as > other kinds of attachments rather than rejecting the message > outright. You can't reject certain kinds of attachments, while > accepting others, like you can with LISTSERV or LITE. Attachment handling is inflexible, but it does allow rejecting of the HTML portion of multipart-alternative while passing text. > It also offers no individual moderation, such as NOPOST or REVIEW > ... It does allow individual members to be on No Post or Individual Moderation, which sounds like what you're referring to. > ... nor does it appear to automatically handle bounces ... It does automatically handle bounces. Hard bounces stop mail, soft bounces are tolerated until a certain threshold is met in a certain period of time, then mail is stopped. Listowners can manually unbounce subscribers, but otherwise Yahoogroups handles sending probe messages to periodically check for bounce status. > There appears to be no way to access the archives or search by > email (you can't search with LITE either way) nor can you set your > email to NOMAIL or digest or individual mails except by web > interface You do need to use the Web interface to access the archives. However, you can go No Mail, or digest, or individual mails via email command. It seemed the rest of your analysis was spot on. -- Jim Jim.Poston@bigfoot.com <<< Road Runner, the coyote's after you! >>> From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 12:24:29 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA08470; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:18:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from amys-answers.com (unknown [206.53.239.113]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66B6217EB4 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:18:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from famroom [206.53.239.126] by amys-answers.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A2EFAAE80440; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:15:43 -0500 From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:18:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Just for Grins (Yahoogroups) Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com Message-ID: <3A86AD5D.23742.4947327@localhost> In-reply-to: <3A867004.16989.CAC788D@localhost> References: <3A867418.18778.3B4B62E@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11 Feb 2001, at 10:57, Jim Poston wrote: > It does allow individual members to be on No Post or Individual > Moderation, which sounds like what you're referring to. Duh, I saw that after I added some non-moderator email addresses > > ... nor does it appear to automatically handle bounces ... > > It does automatically handle bounces. Hard bounces stop mail, soft > bounces are tolerated until a certain threshold is met in a certain > period of time, then mail is stopped. Listowners can manually > unbounce subscribers, but otherwise Yahoogroups handles sending probe > messages to periodically check for bounce status. Ok. > > There appears to be no way to access the archives or search by > > email (you can't search with LITE either way) nor can you set your > > email to NOMAIL or digest or individual mails except by web > > interface > > You do need to use the Web interface to access the archives. > However, you can go No Mail, or digest, or individual mails via email > command. > How? It's not posted anywhere, nor do many of the listmembers know how to do so. -- Amy Stinson, MCP Amy's Answers LLC http://www.amys-answers.com (under construction) Phone (317) 885-1741 Fax (317) 885-6589 From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 12:54:33 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA08736; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:42:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D61717E8C for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:42:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from inspiron7000.gurus.com (max1-11.shoreham.net [208.144.253.15]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA10837 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:39:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010211151255.00c83610@imap.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@imap.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:13:47 -0500 To: List-Managers From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I've mulled it over a lot, and just don't have any answers, other than >finding ways to enable this granularity and flexibility, and I don't see any >way to do that via mail lists. So I'm working towards web/email hybrids >instead, with more end-user flexibility in what they choose to ssee, how >they choose to have it delivered and the like. An alternative would be for the e-mail client to know about mailing lists and have much more creating systems for displaying messages from lists. Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 14:39:24 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA09973; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:25:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C361017EB4 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:25:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) id f1BMP7Y30235; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:25:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:25:07 -0500 From: Tim Pierce To: Amy Stinson Cc: List-Managers Subject: Re: Just for Grins Message-ID: <20010211172507.X1964@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <3A867418.18778.3B4B62E@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A867418.18778.3B4B62E@localhost>; from amys@amys-answers.com on Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 11:14:32AM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 11:14:32AM -0500, Amy Stinson wrote: > Just for grins I set up a list on Yahoogroups (KOA of the Internet) > to see what's involved in managing a list there. > > I am running LISTSERV's little brother, LITE here, but even though I > *really* wish LISTSERV would come down out of the alps on their > licensing prices, it still offer far more flexibility for managing > lists than does Yahoogroups. I would definitely recommend that you look into Listar (http://www.listar.org/), which inherits many of LISTSERV's features and concepts. It offers more flexibility out-of-the-box than just about any other free mailing list suite I've seen so far. -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb.com lead system admonsterator and Chief Hacking Officer From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 15:39:25 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA10718; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:33:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F30CA17EDC for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:33:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1BNS6j08071; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:28:06 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:33:09 -0800 Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Margaret Levine Young , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010211151255.00c83610@imap.iecc.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/11/01 12:13 PM, "Margaret Levine Young" wrote: > An alternative would be for the e-mail client to know about mailing lists > and have much more creating systems for displaying messages from lists. I've recently switched from Eudora to Microsoft Entourage, and it actually has some features to handle mail lists. It has some support for the new list-* headers, allows you to define rules for when something comes from a given mail list, and some other stuff. A nice start, and I find it a step forward from Eudora. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Funny, I don't remember being absent minded. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 17:39:25 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA11972; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:35:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.107]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FDEF17EB4 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [65.3.200.99] by femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010212013537.LTYE27719.femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com@[65.3.200.99]> for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:35:37 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: meh@pop.dnai.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:36:56 -0800 To: List-Managers From: Mikael Hansen Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 23:31 -0800 2/9/2001, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >On 2/9/01 1:50 PM, "James M Galvin" wrote: > >>I prefer mailing lists over all other related technologies. The >>principal reason for this is that it is push technology and I really >>like having everything in my local environment. > >And there's nothing wrong with that. However, there's a huge variability >from person to person just how much they're willing to have pushed before it >starts bothering them, and that's a big problem with mail lists. Those of us >with high tolerances and/or smart filtering systems in the client have >trouble understanding those that don't -- but it's a valid issue that has to >be kept in consideration. Simply saying "learn to filter your mail" isn't >the answer. Being on a list is a responsibility as much as it is a privilege. If the subscriber doesnt know about e-mail client basics such as, say, filters in Eudora, certainly the user knows about unsubscribing as it is rather similar to subscribing. A well-written welcome message goes a long way. At 15:33 -0800 2/11/2001, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >I've recently switched from Eudora to Microsoft Entourage, and it actually >has some features to handle mail lists. It has some support for the new >list-* headers, allows you to define rules for when something comes from a >given mail list, and some other stuff. A nice start, and I find it a step >forward from Eudora. I was wondering what Eudora specifically cannot do in this respect? -- "Who messed with my anti-paranoia shot?" From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 22:39:27 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA14902; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:24:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.greatbasin.net (mail.greatbasin.net [207.228.35.39]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 370FC17EEA for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtcportable (rno-max2-21.gbis.net [207.228.60.149]) by mail.greatbasin.net (8.9.3-MySQL-0.2.3b/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA29319; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:24:46 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim Poston" Organization: The Information Dirt Road To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:22:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: Re: Just for Grins (Yahoogroups) Reply-To: Jim.Poston@bigfoot.com Cc: "Amy Stinson" Message-ID: <3A8710BE.9832.F1F5D43@localhost> In-reply-to: <3A86AD5D.23742.4947327@localhost> References: <3A867004.16989.CAC788D@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11 Feb 2001, at 15:18, Amy Stinson wrote: > On 11 Feb 2001, at 10:57, Jim Poston wrote: > > > You do need to use the Web interface to access the archives. > > However, you can go No Mail, or digest, or individual mails via > > email command. > > How? It's not posted anywhere, nor do many of the listmembers know > how to do so. David Tamkin posted the particulars, but the link to email commands is on the main groups Help page: http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/ -- Jim Jim.Poston@bigfoot.com <<< Math Problems? Call 1-800-[(10x)(13i)=B2]-[sin(xy)/2.362x] >>> From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 01:39:30 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA17810; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:35:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD6717EBB for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:35:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14SFOF-0006W5-00; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:35:23 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Margaret Levine Young , List-Managers Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:20:15 PST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:35:23 -0800 Message-ID: <25051.981970523@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:20:15 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/10/01 7:48 PM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: >>> The priesthood is dead. That's a good thing. >> It also has its downsides. I prefer the new 'net, but I admired >> the old one. > I go back to the time when you could post a party invitation to > net.general with your home address and phone number, and feel safe > doing it. And not have the riot squad show up to control the > crowd, either. Ahh, you got in a few years before I did. > For those of you who think online romances are new things... Grin) Seeing as I met my wife on the phone and proposed (and was accepted) before I ever met her, I'll take the fifth on that one. > The net's changed. I miss the old days when it was smaller, more > intimate, better focussed, less noisy. That's to some degree the > kind of environment I'm trying to re-invent these days with stuff > like hockeyfanz. Not big, not famous, not yahoo, not money-making, > not a lot of stuff -- but fun and interesting. At the same time, > though, the current net is a lot of fun, too, in many different > ways, and trying to bodysurf the cyberwave of growth and change > and keep up with what's going on (much less useful and innovative) > has been one hell of a rush, too. Precisely. I prefer the new 'net, but I admired the old one. >>>> Okay, so they need a lot of education. >> >>> But who's stepped up to educate? >> They did not take advantage of the material already present, > I think that's a generalization -- a stereotyping. Many of them > DID, in fact, take advantage of that material. And some of them > didn't, but in all honesty, that's ALWAYS been a problem on the > net since the early days. I'm not even sure it was more common in > this latest wave. It's just this latest wave was much bigger, so > the percentages could be the same and the noise still got huge. Good point. The problem there is that that those who did take the clue were (mostly) invisible, so what was visible was the sudden September**3 mass of clue vacuum. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 01:54:30 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA17930; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD1D17EBB for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:47:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14SFa0-00040x-00; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:47:32 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Norbert Bollow , List-Managers Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:11:14 PST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:47:32 -0800 Message-ID: <15433.981971252@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:11:14 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > One approach I find interesting but haven't really researched is > to start building lots of SMALL lecture halls, each of which fits > N students, and each has the same video feed from the professor, > but each small hall then breaks off for an independent > discussion. And when it's all done, the highlights of each > independent room could potentially be collated for distribution to > everyone... > Hmm. Thoughts? Automation becomes a real problem for that last step -- which is the basic problem with most designs when you get down to it. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 02:09:42 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA17879; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:43:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C30617EBB for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:42:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14SFVR-0001ju-00; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:42:49 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Tim Bowden , List-Managers Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:49:41 PST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:42:49 -0800 Message-ID: <6688.981970969@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:49:41 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/10/01 8:04 PM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: >> Populations tend to group internally. More interestingly (I've >> found this a challenge for my own lists), high signal venues >> don't tend to attract memberships who then promote and advertise >> those forums. > I think that's true. I'd never considered it quite that way. It > makes an interesting issue on marketing of lists and > communities. Hmm. Surprisingly it has been enough to found a non-profit Usenix-like association for the topic (a direct spin-off of my list). > I see that same kind of attitude on some lists: who cares if > everyone's fighting, since I'm on top and it flows down! to a > degree, that's the domain of the troll.... Yep, the problems of list peerage. > And I think that's the key to succeeding in these smaller > net-venues. Find the right places for word-of-mouth to work. And > it's not always easy to know what they are ahead of time... I've tended more to just ensuring that signal was high and that the list could be found be someone looking for signal in that field (this is mostly a function of making sure that the list archives are indexed by all the search engines). I've reached the point where most people in the field just refer to it as "the list" on the blanket assumption that "everybody knows what it is". I'm not really sure what else can be done from there. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 02:28:45 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA18056; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:53:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A4F017EBB for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14SFfX-0006oV-00; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:53:15 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Istvan Berkeley , List-Managers Subject: Re: Lists and society In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:15:35 PST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:53:15 -0800 Message-ID: <26193.981971595@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:15:35 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/10/01 11:18 PM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: >> There are two particular dangers with HTML email (if assuming no >> other attachment types): >> >> 1) Privacy loss, for instance via a bug image referenced by the >> HTML on a foreign site (ie they get to track who reads the >> message, where, etc). >> >> 2) The ability for the HTML to invoke executable content stored >> on remote systems (eg a mislabelled link). > Yup. But I think it's safe to assume that any user reading HTML > email also is reading HTML off of web sites, and if they're > willing to accept those risks by going to web sites, the risks are > no different from HTML-enabled mail lists. Not quite: 1) The are likely to use different tools for web browsing and email, 2) They know about cookies and using cookies for tracking. Web bugs are invisible and largely unknown. 3) Web bugs (and cookies) don't travel with an URL when you send it to a friend. > I don't see the need to be MORE secure than other things they > accept as standard usage of the net -- I do see the need to be AS > secure, and to be as secure as I can be without gutting > functionality. Playing with guns in my back yard is one thing. Playing with guns in a public crowded square is another. Lists would seem to fall into the public square side of the equation. > So I don't want to be 100% risk-averse -- I think it's important > to manage that risk, but I don't see that it's an advantage to try > to avoid things where stuff MIGHT happen just because it might, > unless the results are catastrophic (and viruses are by definition > catastrophic. Pixel-trackers are annoying, but also a general fact > of life today, and not catastrophic or destructive). There's also a question of consent. What do the members of your list consent to when they participate in your list, even if only by lurking? I've been rathr explicit about this in regard to my lists in that I promise never to reveal any whether or not any particular address is or is not subscribed to the list. That alone pretty well kicks HTML and any sort of executable content in the head. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 07:11:05 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA23900; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:04:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E11BC17EBB for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:04:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from inspiron7000.gurus.com (max1-8.shoreham.net [208.144.253.12]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19586 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:04:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010212094113.00c95880@imap.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@imap.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:44:28 -0500 To: List-Managers From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mikael Hansen wrote: >I was wondering what Eudora specifically cannot do in this respect? Handle threads. For example, I'm reading List-Manager with the individual messages pre-sorted into a Eudora mailbox. I decide that I don't want to read the rest of the "Just for grins" thread because I don't have time. There's no "kill this thread" command. Eudora could add a command that deletes all the unread messages in the current mailbox with the same subject line as the current message - I'd love it! Better yet, the command could delete future messages with the same subject line as they get filtered into this mailbox. I'll bet there are a couple of other commands that would really improve the list-reading experience in Eudora (or any other e-mail client). Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 09:09:34 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA25116; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:58:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75DA917E8B for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:58:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1CGrJj01956; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:53:19 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:58:23 -0800 Subject: Re: What happened? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: J C Lawrence Cc: Margaret Levine Young , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <25051.981970523@kanga.nu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/12/01 1:35 AM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: > Ahh, you got in a few years before I did. Just a bit -- I wrote my first BBS-type system back in 1979-80. In Fortran (whan all you have is a hammer, it all looks like nails). > Seeing as I met my wife on the phone and proposed (and was accepted) > before I ever met her, I'll take the fifth on that one. Met my first wife over real time chat in 1979. Met my current (and final) wife over rec.arts.comics while she was at Purdue (15+ years ago now...) > Precisely. I prefer the new 'net, but I admired the old one. Agreed. Perfect. > Good point. The problem there is that that those who did take the > clue were (mostly) invisible, so what was visible was the sudden > September**3 mass of clue vacuum. It's the "turkey factor" -- the "turkeys" on a list are a teeny-tiny minority of these things, but as admin, they drive you crazy, to the point where it's easy to forget that you have 1,000 people on the list and four of them you want to kill. That's the ENTIRE issue with noise on a list (or usenet) and scaling up: if you have a list of 1,000 and four idiots, you can deal with it, and so can your users. If you have 5,000 and 20 idiots, those 20 idiots will likely make everyone crazy and cause them to leave unless you can get them under control... But the percentages are the same... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. "When his IQ reaches 50, he should sell." From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 09:55:23 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA25720; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:49:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnai.com (dnai.com [207.181.194.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B37C917E8C for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from triton.dnai.com (sendmail@triton.dnai.com [207.181.195.20]) by dnai.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA64860; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:49:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (meh@localhost) by triton.dnai.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16039; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:49:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from meh@dnai.com) X-Authentication-Warning: triton.dnai.com: meh owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:49:00 -0800 (PST) From: Mikael Hansen X-Sender: meh@triton To: Margaret Levine Young Cc: List-Managers Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010212094113.00c95880@imap.iecc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Margaret Levine Young wrote: > I decide that I don't want to > read the rest of the "Just for grins" thread because I don't have time. > There's no "kill this thread" command. Eudora could add a command that > deletes all the unread messages in the current mailbox with the same > subject line as the current message - I'd love it! Option-click message hilights the thread, then hit the delete button. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 10:09:39 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA25613; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.oldradio.net (ns.oldradio.net [216.87.208.245]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18B5B17E8C for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [208.165.40.11] (ip11.40.blaz.blazenet.net [208.165.40.11]) by ns.oldradio.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14007; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:37:24 -0500 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Envelope-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200102120900.BAA16485@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:34:35 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Charlie Summers Subject: What to do about HTML-only email? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Folks; A quick comment; I was somewhat sarcastic last week when agreeing with some posters that this list is dying. It has been clearly proven that those skeptics are dead wrong, and this list is quite vibrant. Looks to me the glass here is much more than half-full, no matter what some perceive! On to the subjected topic. We run some lists with digests attached (as well as a couple that are _only_ digested...don't ask), and routinely reject all attachments (yes, I know, but I figure if someone is silly enough to be attaching a vCard to every email, why should I waste the processing power to strip it off?). We also, because we send digests out as text/plain instead of multipart/digest (it's an historical thing; our users are older and every time I tried to change people yepled that their clients were exploding the digests), reject HTML email. (*sigh*) First AOL 6.0 is brain-dead enough not to PERMIT sending plain-text email, but now MSN Companion (those silly little web appliances) joins in. Completely ignoring the argument that HTML email is or is not a bad thing, what are you folks doing about it? Accepting it as HTML email? Stripping the HTML (deMIME)? Rejecting it and copying the user's ISP if it's one of those who use propriatary systems to diosallow plain text? Having your users complain to their ISPs? Or am I the only one who gets ticked off by these Internet elephants telling me how I should accept email? Should I just lay off the espresso? ;) Charlie From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 10:23:41 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA26086; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E73D017EBB for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from inspiron7000.gurus.com (max1-8.shoreham.net [208.144.253.12]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA07748; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:10:50 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010212130634.00bba100@imap.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@imap.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:07:19 -0500 To: Mikael Hansen From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well Cc: List-Managers In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010212094113.00c95880@imap.iecc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2/12/01 12:49 PM, Mikael Hansen wrote: >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Margaret Levine Young wrote: > > > I decide that I don't want to > > read the rest of the "Just for grins" thread because I don't have time. > > There's no "kill this thread" command. Eudora could add a command that > > deletes all the unread messages in the current mailbox with the same > > subject line as the current message - I'd love it! > >Option-click message hilights the thread, then hit the delete button. In Eudora (4.3)? By "Option-click" you are referring to a Mac key? Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 12:38:12 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA27698; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:23:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.rev.net (mail.rev.net [206.67.68.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BA0617EAE for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from fantasy (USER156.GVA.NET [216.80.135.160]) by mail.rev.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f1CKN7b00303 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:23:09 -0500 Message-Id: <200102122023.f1CKN7b00303@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:23:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? In-reply-to: References: <200102120900.BAA16485@honor.greatcircle.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 12 Feb 2001, at 12:34, Charlie Summers wrote: > (*sigh*) First AOL 6.0 is brain-dead enough not to PERMIT sending > plain-text email, A footnote on this. Since this was first reported here a while back, I've had several folk claim this isn't true. I've been told from several different sources that this will work: ---------------------------- For AOL email using Windows: 1. Make sure your font is set to Arial 10, the AOL default. 2. Create a message using only default Arial 10 type. Any quoted text pasted in from another message must also be in Arial 10 type (no bold, other sizes or colors). Note: if you paste a message that was received in HTML format, it will probably cause you to send in HTML. 3. Hit Control-A to highlight the entire message. 4. Right click anywhere in the message itself: A 'popup menu' will appear. Move the cursor to "text" and another menu will appear. Move the cursor to "normal" and click on it. 5. Send the message. ------------------------------- Kind of a PITA, but that's _their_ problem, right? :o) /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 12:53:13 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA27743; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from wellington.cnchost.com (wellington.concentric.net [207.155.252.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E8F17EAE for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:28:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (dsl-64-195-231-125.telocity.com [64.195.231.125]) by wellington.cnchost.com id PAA29294; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:28:04 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010212122001.01fec0d0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:28:24 -0800 To: Margaret Levine Young , Mikael Hansen From: JC Dill Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well Cc: List-Managers In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010212130634.00bba100@imap.iecc.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010212094113.00c95880@imap.iecc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 10:07 AM 2/12/01, Margaret Levine Young wrote: >At 2/12/01 12:49 PM, Mikael Hansen wrote: >>On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Margaret Levine Young wrote: >> >> > I decide that I don't want to >> > read the rest of the "Just for grins" thread because I don't have time. >> > There's no "kill this thread" command. Eudora could add a command that >> > deletes all the unread messages in the current mailbox with the same >> > subject line as the current message - I'd love it! >> >>Option-click message hilights the thread, then hit the delete button. > >In Eudora (4.3)? By "Option-click" you are referring to a Mac key? comp.mail.eudora.ms-windows to the rescue: >> I seem to recall that there was a keyboard shortcut one could use >> when you are viewing a message, to select all the other messages >> with the same subject. > >Alt-click on the subject field of one of the messages in the >summaries/toc window. All messages with the same subject will be >grouped. > > -- AK > >-- >adam.kippes@pobox.com >PGP keys available from servers All messages will be grouped, *and* highlighted. Now, (with Eudora 5, I don't recall if Make Filter was present in some or all of the earlier versions), you can: Click on Special | Make Filter. Select: the conditions (Incoming and Manual), the radio button to filter based on Subject, the action "Delete Message (Transfer to Trash)", and then click the "Add Details" button at the bottom. This will open your filter list, and allow you to drag/move this new filter *before* the filter that moves your list email to your list folder (and presumably ends with a "skip next" command). Voila, a killed thread. jc From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 13:08:18 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA28031; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:56:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6C217EAE for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:56:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [165.227.249.20] (ip20.proper.com [165.227.249.20]) by above.proper.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21079 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:56:07 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:55:11 -0800 To: From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: What happened? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:58 AM -0800 2/12/01, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >It's the "turkey factor" -- the "turkeys" on a list are a teeny-tiny >minority of these things, but as admin, they drive you crazy, to the point >where it's easy to forget that you have 1,000 people on the list and four of >them you want to kill. That's the ENTIRE issue with noise on a list (or >usenet) and scaling up: if you have a list of 1,000 and four idiots, you can >deal with it, and so can your users. If you have 5,000 and 20 idiots, those >20 idiots will likely make everyone crazy and cause them to leave unless you >can get them under control... But the percentages are the same... And it's even harder to remember that most of these folks (but not all) are neither turkeys nor idiots. They are people with personalities and excitement levels that are well out of the norm. Many of the most frustrating (for me) folks on my mailing lists are incredibly competent at what they do; unfortunately, some of what they want to do is to get people to may more attention to them.... --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 13:38:51 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA28454; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:34:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from asante.asante.com (asante.asante.COM [192.108.250.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E31C17EAE for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:34:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from archy.asante.com (IDENT:bpm@archy.asante.COM [192.203.52.121]) by asante.asante.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA28227; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:33:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:40:07 -0800 (PST) From: Breen Mullins X-Sender: bpm@archy.asante.com To: Margaret Levine Young Cc: Mikael Hansen , List-Managers Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010212130634.00bba100@imap.iecc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Margaret Levine Young wrote: > > In Eudora (4.3)? By "Option-click" you are referring to a Mac key? Option is a Mac key. The trick (which I just learned!) works back to 3.1 on the Mac. The usual PC analogue is the Alt key. Let us know if that works... Cheers - Breen -- Breen Mullins San Mateo, Calif. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 13:53:14 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA28504; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB3A817EAE for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:37:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) id f1CLbX454431; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:37:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:37:33 -0500 From: Tim Pierce To: Charlie Summers Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? Message-ID: <20010212163733.A53126@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <200102120900.BAA16485@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from charlie@lofcom.com on Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 12:34:35PM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 12:34:35PM -0500, Charlie Summers wrote: > > (*sigh*) First AOL 6.0 is brain-dead enough not to PERMIT sending > plain-text email, but now MSN Companion (those silly little web appliances) > joins in. Completely ignoring the argument that HTML email is or is not a bad > thing, what are you folks doing about it? Accepting it as HTML email? > Stripping the HTML (deMIME)? Rejecting it and copying the user's ISP if it's > one of those who use propriatary systems to diosallow plain text? Having your > users complain to their ISPs? We reject all non-text attachments, meaning anything that's not text/plain or message/rfc822. (We also force everything to text/plain anyway, or else message/rfc822 gets turned into an "attachment" and people panic, thinking they're viruses.) However, anything multipart/alternative with a text/plain body part gets stripped of the extra crud. We use an in-house tool I wrote in C, because demime is written in Perl and we can't afford the extra overhead. At some point I'll also get around to rendering text/html messages in plain text for the AOL or MSN toys. > Or am I the only one who gets ticked off by these Internet elephants > telling me how I should accept email? Should I just lay off the espresso? ;) Yeah, but I also try not to let it bother me any more. There's only so much you can do to stop it, and cleaning it up for my users is probably the most effective thing I can do. (Insert Chug rant here about how we're all hoary old dinosaurs except for him.) -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb.com lead system admonsterator and Chief Hacking Officer From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 15:08:15 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA29502; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FD5717EAE for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:57:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1CMvAJ19364 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:57:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA09429 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:57:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:57:09 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? In-Reply-To: <200102122023.f1CKN7b00303@mail.rev.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This fix for sending plain text with AOL-6.0 is on their support web page. It's been tested and definitely works... one post at a time. You have to go through the whole mess each time you want to send plain text. It defaults back to HTML. http://members.aol.com/adamkb/aol/mailfaq/#aol6html - murr - From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 15:23:16 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA29641; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:00:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnai.com (dnai.com [207.181.194.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81D5517EAE for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from triton.dnai.com (sendmail@triton.dnai.com [207.181.195.20]) by dnai.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA89196 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:00:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (meh@localhost) by triton.dnai.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18874 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:00:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from meh@dnai.com) X-Authentication-Warning: triton.dnai.com: meh owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:00:53 -0800 (PST) From: Mikael Hansen X-Sender: meh@triton To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > At 8:58 AM -0800 2/12/01, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > >It's the "turkey factor" -- the "turkeys" on a list are a teeny-tiny > >minority of these things, but as admin, they drive you crazy, to the point > >where it's easy to forget that you have 1,000 people on the list and four of > >them you want to kill. That's the ENTIRE issue with noise on a list (or > >usenet) and scaling up: if you have a list of 1,000 and four idiots, you can > >deal with it, and so can your users. If you have 5,000 and 20 idiots, those > >20 idiots will likely make everyone crazy and cause them to leave unless you > >can get them under control... But the percentages are the same... > > And it's even harder to remember that most of these folks (but not > all) are neither turkeys nor idiots. They are people with > personalities and excitement levels that are well out of the norm. > Many of the most frustrating (for me) folks on my mailing lists are > incredibly competent at what they do; unfortunately, some of what > they want to do is to get people to may more attention to them.... I believe that if you take away those 20 users, another 20 of the remaining 4,980 are likely to move forward. This is also an aspect of the issue with noise on a list. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 16:13:00 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA00437; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3524117EAE for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:54:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1CNn2j20259; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:49:02 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:54:07 -0800 Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Russ Allbery , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/11/01 12:44 AM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: > Take a look at for starters; > that's the most recent PHP-based news reader implementation that I've seen Cool! thanks! > Sure, on a regular news server, > nearly all of that information is extracted from the headers (except for > bytes and lines), but there's no need for it to be that way. There's > already code in INN for automatically generated keywords, and I've been > thinking about generalizing that to allow Perl or Python hooks to generate > arbitrary additional information to drop into overview. That's a neat hack, especially for non-propogating or minimally propogating servers. Cute. (my main problem with usenet (as opposed to NNTP) is that we send every byte of every message to every server in case any person on any machine wants to see any byte. Rather bass-ackwards, but it seemed a good idea at the time.. Grin) > Agreed. The discussion model is really quite poor, and only marginally > better than the nearly worthless "talk-back" sections that a lot of > mainstream news agencies with web presences have started adding to their > stories. Phht. "we need portals, whatver they are!" "we have a portal, we're still not profitable. Sticky sites!" "still not profitable! we must have community! build us a community! we don't care that we're a site promoting clay sewer pipes, we must have one!") > This ties into my general impression of most web discussion boards as > strongly discouraging responses of any real length, largely due to serious > interface problems when you try to use a web form to write anything > containing substantial content. (I've yet to see a web browser that > actually has an adequate built-in editor.) I don't know. That's to some degree a valid observation, but I don't know if it's an inherent limitation, or if boards just haven't figured out how to do it yet -- it's a technology that's just now maturing into proper tools for this stuff. Time will tell. I think it's a solvable situation, though. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. "When his IQ reaches 50, he should sell." From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 16:23:34 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA00796; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:17:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2322217EAE for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:16:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1D0AVj21342; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:10:31 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:15:36 -0800 Subject: Re: can technology help? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: James M Galvin , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/11/01 10:11 AM, "James M Galvin" wrote: (general response: what james said, in spades) > And there are at least two legitimate "owners" of any discussion: there > is the person who manages the conduit and the person who receives what's > dumped in it. I think there are three -- The creator of the content, who has an expectation of how it's to be distributed and managed. The receiver(s) of the content, who has an expectation of what they are going to get. The manager of the conduit, who's really editing the conduit (in the classic publishing sense, although generally as much more of a macro level) who is expecting the conduit to fulfill whatever purpose they have defined for it. And I've thought about those definitions for a while, and I think almost all fights we see come about when one or more of those expectations are missed. If someone posts a message and finds it in the newspaper without approval, the poster gets mad -- whether or not it's legal to use messages like that, they aren't expecting to be talking to the newspaper. A receiver has some idea of a list -- when a discussion goes off-topic or a list gets busy, that expectation is shattered. When people do things the admin doesn't want, he gets mad. So at a very base level, does administration come down to understanding, setting and educating expectations properly? Hmm. > So, what we really need is a technology or service that gives the > conduit owner fine-grained control of the operation and content of a > discussion, *and* gives the same control to a subscriber for controlling > their inflow. > > Chuq, isn't this essentially what you're after in your experiment? That's not essentially -- that's pretty close to exactly it. Maybe I should have made this explicit before, but I don't see myself as a list-manager, per se. For a forum-manager, or a news-manager, or any of that stuff. I'm a person looking to use technology to cause things to happen. To tie back to my "if all you have is a hammer..." idea, if you think of yourself as a list-manager, everything you design ends up looking like a mail list. Which is not bad (and certainly not wrong!) but my view instead is to try to figure out what I want to accomplish and then create a system to accomplish it. Sometime's that's creating a mail list; sometime's it's something else. I love hacking the technology -- but my real interest is in doing something with it. And there's always the next hack. We're never really done, it can always be done better next time.... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Q: Did God really create the world in seven days? A: He did it in six days and nights while living on cola and candy bars. On the seventh day he went home and found out his girlfriend had left him. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 16:38:46 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA00874; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:22:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C63EE17EAE for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:21:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1D0G7j21703; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:16:07 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:21:11 -0800 Subject: Re: What happened? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Paul Hoffman / IMC , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/12/01 12:55 PM, "Paul Hoffman / IMC" wrote: > And it's even harder to remember that most of these folks (but not > all) are neither turkeys nor idiots. Correct. These are terms I use for administrative convenience or linguistic shorthand. (another is Eeyore, as in "Laurie, the eeyore on the foobar list is whining again...." or "we have a troll on fred. Your turn, start with the kneecaps") > They are people with > personalities and excitement levels that are well out of the norm. > Many of the most frustrating (for me) folks on my mailing lists are > incredibly competent at what they do; This can be incredibly hard to remember sometimes, especially when I'm under stress: I'm the expert at e-mail systems. They are. To me, this is all trivially obvious and easy. To them -- it's not. For me, it's not brain surgery. I know how I'd do if a brain surgeon invited me in to scrub, and I try to keep that in mind. So I might call them turkeys or trolls or eeyores, but rarely to their faces (other than trolls...) -- and it's important to solve the problem, not just reinforce that they're having one. So it's alays a case by case basis -- you can't stereotype your actions. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 17:37:16 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA01768; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B7A117EE0 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:22:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from inspiron7000.gurus.com (max1-8.shoreham.net [208.144.253.12]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA04482 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:22:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010212195022.00bf9600@imap.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@imap.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:52:27 -0500 To: From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010212122001.01fec0d0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010212130634.00bba100@imap.iecc.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010212094113.00c95880@imap.iecc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is way cool! On the other hand, it sure isn't as easy as pressing K as you can in many newsreaders -- Eudora isn't optimized that way. > >Alt-click on the subject field of one of the messages in the > >summaries/toc window. All messages with the same subject will be > >grouped. > > > > -- AK > > > >-- > >adam.kippes@pobox.com > >PGP keys available from servers > >All messages will be grouped, *and* highlighted. Now, (with Eudora 5, I >don't recall if Make Filter was present in some or all of the earlier >versions), you can: > >Click on Special | Make Filter. Select: > the conditions (Incoming and Manual), > the radio button to filter based on Subject, > the action "Delete Message (Transfer to Trash)", >and then click the "Add Details" button at the bottom. This will open >your filter list, and allow you to drag/move this new filter *before* the >filter that moves your list email to your list folder (and presumably ends >with a "skip next" command). Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 21:22:01 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA04460; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:16:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D662C17E8C for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:16:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa02170 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 12 Feb 01 13:41:33 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: What happened? From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: <28R75F1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 01 13:29:36 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > It's the "turkey factor" -- the "turkeys" on a list are a teeny-tiny > minority of these things, but as admin, they drive you crazy, to the point > where it's easy to forget that you have 1,000 people on the list and four of > them you want to kill. I used to worry about all of us when I'd see the results of popular culture reflected back at me - narcisstic retrograde swaggoons on MTV and insipid homicide homilies at the local ant farm cinema - and then on a Napster debate some record exec spouted a stat in the papers - "...92% of Americans buy no music at all." That means, on any given release, some Puffy Enema Badass jerk is rejected by 92% of us at the outset. That's somehow comforting, and allows us to remember the problem children do not represent the forum, they're just realizing their Puffdaddy fantasy, which is realizeable because at the center of the broadcast nexus flamboyant idiocy reigns! In my company, troublemakers have just about the shelf live they would if disturbing the Corleone family bidness. I have the advantage of not operating an open-discussion list in real time. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "Readers meeting Writers as the Sea the Very Sky" Send: subscribe nerdnosh To: majordomo@story.nerdnosh.org From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 10:37:21 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA18438; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:22:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3D217EBA for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:22:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14Sk5t-0003aD-00; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:22:29 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Margaret Levine Young , List-Managers Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:58:23 PST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:22:29 -0800 Message-ID: <13776.982088549@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:58:23 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/12/01 1:35 AM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: >> Ahh, you got in a few years before I did. > Just a bit -- I wrote my first BBS-type system back in 1979-80. In > Fortran (whan all you have is a hammer, it all looks like nails). I got into the BBS scene in '78 in the UK via programming dial-up MUDs and then on to the 'net proper via a local FIDO gateway in the early '80's. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 10:52:14 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA18669; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:41:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A24C317EB0 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:40:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14SkNZ-0006px-00; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:40:45 -0800 To: Charlie Summers Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? In-Reply-To: Message from Charlie Summers of "Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:34:35 EST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:40:45 -0800 Message-ID: <26283.982089645@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:34:35 -0500 Charlie Summers wrote: > (*sigh*) First AOL 6.0 is brain-dead enough not to PERMIT sending > plain-text email, but now MSN Companion (those silly little web > appliances) joins in. Yes, this is sad. Happily AOL and MSN account for less than 5% of my subscriber base, and around 1% of my posters so I've not had to face this problem much. (Oddly enough two of the more active AOL posters (ie just above lurkers) post straight text messages with no HTML -- I haven't looked to see how they do this). > Completely ignoring the argument that HTML email is or is not a > bad thing, what are you folks doing about it? Accepting it as HTML > email? Stripping the HTML (deMIME)? Procmail filters which simply reject/bounce/silently delete any inbound HTML messages seem the most common approach per discussions in other forums. deMIME comes in a close second. There's also MIMEfilter which looks interesting: ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/m/mimefilter/ > Rejecting it and copying the user's ISP if it's one of those who > use propriatary systems to diosallow plain text? Having your users > complain to their ISPs? My default is to refuse to accept HTML mail, and reject it back to the sender with a request to repost in text/plain. (I do the same thing for those annoying people who put their new text at the top and then quote the entire previous message below, who don't use attribution lines on their quotes, who don't use leading quote characters, etc) Its then up to the user to arrange a solution. However, I'm about to move more mainstream with a couple lists, so I'm digging into the area. I suspect I'll end up with something based off MIMEfilter which auto-strips HTML and other attachments, as well as adding a rant to the top of the first text/plain stating wha was done to the message and why. > Or am I the only one who gets ticked off by these Internet > elephants telling me how I should accept email? Should I just lay > off the espresso? ;) Hardly. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 11:07:14 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA18927; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:00:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 824D417EB4 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:00:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14SkgN-0001ra-00; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:00:11 -0800 To: Tim Pierce Cc: Charlie Summers , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? In-Reply-To: Message from Tim Pierce of "Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:37:33 EST." <20010212163733.A53126@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <200102120900.BAA16485@honor.greatcircle.com> <20010212163733.A53126@ma-1.rootsweb.com> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:00:11 -0800 Message-ID: <7165.982090811@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:37:33 -0500 Tim Pierce wrote: > At some point I'll also get around to rendering text/html messages > in plain text for the AOL or MSN toys. I don't have an recent AOL mesasges to hand (I auto-reject them). Are the HTML messages that AOL sends multipart/alternative with a text/plain and a text/html part, or is the root MIME part text/html (assuming no attachments)? > Yeah, but I also try not to let it bother me any more. There's > only so much you can do to stop it, and cleaning it up for my > users is probably the most effective thing I can do. (Insert Chug > rant here about how we're all hoary old dinosaurs except for him.) The problem is that Chuq is right on the money with the dinosaur factor. Most 'net users today seem to operate on two base assumptions: -- If it looks flashy its better -- Privacy leaks and security breaks are just "normal" and are going to happen no matter what you do (ie the "hackers" are too smart; after all even Microsoft got cracked so what chance do we have?) The marketting driven product sales economy actively supports and encourages both those views -- making our job (and I'm writing as a security guy as well as a mail guy) all the more difficult. The last corporate network I helped set up filtered all inbound email of unwelcome content like java/javascript (rejecting/bouncing some, stripping others). We also used in-band filtering(effectively a proxy, but one that sits at the router and you don't need to configure your browser for) of all HTTP and HTTPS connections and stripped all java/javascript from all retrieved web pages as well as nuking liks to a few unwelcome content types. The users of course screamed. However once we showed them why we were doing this, and what the risks were to their stock options it dropped back down to normal grumbling levels. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 11:22:20 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA19052; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from refractory.homenet.firedrake.org (t1o316p226.teliauk.com [195.12.246.226]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E3017EB0 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:08:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from roger by refractory.homenet.firedrake.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14Skoa-0007vG-00 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:08:40 +0000 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:08:40 +0000 From: Roger Burton West To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? Message-ID: <20010213190840.A30444@firedrake.org> Mail-Followup-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM References: <200102120900.BAA16485@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from charlie@lofcom.com on Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 12:34:35PM -0500 X-Phase-Of-Moon: The Moon is Waning Gibbous (64% of Full) X-Discordian-Date: Prickle-Prickle, Chaos 44 3167 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 12:34:35PM -0500, Charlie Summers wrote: >Accepting it as HTML email? I don't have big enough lawyers for that. The first time someone posts the Windows-trojan-du-jour to one of my lists, everyone who gets it will suddenly blame _me_, because my server sent it to them. >Stripping the HTML (deMIME)? This is my current approach. If text/plain exists, use it; otherwise convert text/html to plain and use that; if neither exists, trash the message. Roger From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 13:41:52 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA20932; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:25:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 139DB17EB0 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:25:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) id f1DLP5782269; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:25:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:25:05 -0500 From: Tim Pierce To: J C Lawrence Cc: Charlie Summers , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? Message-ID: <20010213162505.L58412@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <200102120900.BAA16485@honor.greatcircle.com> <20010212163733.A53126@ma-1.rootsweb.com> <7165.982090811@kanga.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <7165.982090811@kanga.nu>; from claw@kanga.nu on Tue, Feb 13, 2001 at 11:00:11AM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, Feb 13, 2001 at 11:00:11AM -0800, J C Lawrence wrote: > On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:37:33 -0500 > Tim Pierce wrote: > > > At some point I'll also get around to rendering text/html messages > > in plain text for the AOL or MSN toys. > > I don't have an recent AOL mesasges to hand (I auto-reject them). > Are the HTML messages that AOL sends multipart/alternative with a > text/plain and a text/html part, or is the root MIME part text/html > (assuming no attachments)? They're pure text/html. No multipart/anything. That's the chief problem. Multipart/alternative we can handle silently, but something that doesn't even have a text/plain part will get rejected. -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb.com lead system admonsterator and Chief Hacking Officer From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 13:52:17 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA21134; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:41:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B1C017EB0 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14SnCC-0004FZ-00; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:41:12 -0800 To: Tim Pierce Cc: Charlie Summers , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? In-Reply-To: Message from Tim Pierce of "Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:25:05 EST." <20010213162505.L58412@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <200102120900.BAA16485@honor.greatcircle.com> <20010212163733.A53126@ma-1.rootsweb.com> <7165.982090811@kanga.nu> <20010213162505.L58412@ma-1.rootsweb.com> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:41:12 -0800 Message-ID: <16340.982100472@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:25:05 -0500 Tim Pierce wrote: > They're pure text/html. No multipart/anything. That's the chief > problem. Multipart/alternative we can handle silently, but > something that doesn't even have a text/plain part will get > rejected. Aieeee! That is a problem. Given the privacy model I guarantee my subscribers there's no way I can ever accept HTML mail (no matter how good a foreign site stripping model I use I'm confident it can be broken/worked around). I note however that http://members.aol.com/adamkb/aol/mailfaq/#aol6html Seems to suggest that they use a multipart/alternative. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 14:37:05 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA21868; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E1717EB0 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:31:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1DMPbj23136; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:25:37 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:30:43 -0800 Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: J C Lawrence , Tim Pierce Cc: Charlie Summers , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <16340.982100472@kanga.nu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/13/01 1:41 PM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: > Aieeee! That is a problem. Given the privacy model I guarantee my > subscribers there's no way I can ever accept HTML mail Welcome to the world of the 500 pound gorilla. > I note however that > > http://members.aol.com/adamkb/aol/mailfaq/#aol6html > > Seems to suggest that they use a multipart/alternative. As far as I know, they have to set up to send that way for EVERY email. You can't just set defaults that'll work. And you have the fun of convincing them to bother. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. I wish I could say your enthusiasm was contagious... From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 15:22:04 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA22361; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:10:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.xnet.com (quake.xnet.com [198.147.221.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFBFF17EB0 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:10:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (adamb.xnet.com [205.243.156.212]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id RAA10880 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:10:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200102132310.RAA10880@mail.xnet.com> Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:11:32 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/12/01 4:57 PM, murr rhame wrote... >This fix for sending plain text with AOL-6.0 is on their support >web page. It's been tested and definitely works... one post at a >time. You have to go through the whole mess each time you want >to send plain text. It defaults back to HTML. > >http://members.aol.com/adamkb/aol/mailfaq/#aol6html For the record, that's not *their* support page, it's *mine*. I wouldn't want anyone to think I was speaking God's word. :) -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 15:37:04 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA22362; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:10:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.xnet.com (quake.xnet.com [198.147.221.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C2A717EBA for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:10:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (adamb.xnet.com [205.243.156.212]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id RAA10889 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:10:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200102132310.RAA10889@mail.xnet.com> Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:11:33 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/13/01 1:00 PM, J C Lawrence wrote... >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:37:33 -0500 >Tim Pierce wrote: > >> At some point I'll also get around to rendering text/html messages >> in plain text for the AOL or MSN toys. > >I don't have an recent AOL mesasges to hand (I auto-reject them). >Are the HTML messages that AOL sends multipart/alternative with a >text/plain and a text/html part, or is the root MIME part text/html >(assuming no attachments)? multipart/alternative -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 15:52:09 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA22652; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.xnet.com (quake.xnet.com [198.147.221.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4675F17EB0 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:32:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (adamb.xnet.com [205.243.156.212]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id RAA17443 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:32:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200102132332.RAA17443@mail.xnet.com> Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:34:03 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/13/01 3:25 PM, Tim Pierce wrote... > On Tue, Feb 13, 2001 at 11:00:11AM -0800, J C Lawrence wrote: >> On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:37:33 -0500 >> Tim Pierce wrote: >> >>> At some point I'll also get around to rendering text/html messages >>> in plain text for the AOL or MSN toys. >> >> I don't have an recent AOL mesasges to hand (I auto-reject them). >> Are the HTML messages that AOL sends multipart/alternative with a >> text/plain and a text/html part, or is the root MIME part text/html >> (assuming no attachments)? > > They're pure text/html. No, they're not. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 16:07:05 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA22367; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:10:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.xnet.com (quake.xnet.com [198.147.221.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF5F317EC0 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:10:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (adamb.xnet.com [205.243.156.212]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id RAA10897 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:10:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200102132310.RAA10897@mail.xnet.com> Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:11:34 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/13/01 12:40 PM, J C Lawrence wrote... >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:34:35 -0500 >Charlie Summers wrote: > >> (*sigh*) First AOL 6.0 is brain-dead enough not to PERMIT sending >> plain-text email, but now MSN Companion (those silly little web >> appliances) joins in. > >Yes, this is sad. Happily AOL and MSN account for less than 5% of >my subscriber base, and around 1% of my posters so I've not had to >face this problem much. Your subscriber base doesn't represent the demographic of the Internet. Most list owners see AOL and Hotmail as their two top subscriber groups. >(Oddly enough two of the more active AOL posters (ie just above >lurkers) post straight text messages with no HTML -- I haven't >looked to see how they do this). They're probably not using AOL 6. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 16:22:05 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA23170; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:17:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.xnet.com (quake.xnet.com [198.147.221.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10B3417EB0 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:17:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (adamb.xnet.com [205.243.156.212]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id SAA29871 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:17:16 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200102140017.SAA29871@mail.xnet.com> Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:18:28 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: "List-Managers" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/13/01 4:30 PM, Chuq Von Rospach wrote... > On 2/13/01 1:41 PM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: -snip- >> I note however that >> >> http://members.aol.com/adamkb/aol/mailfaq/#aol6html >> >> Seems to suggest that they use a multipart/alternative. > > As far as I know, they have to set up to send that way for EVERY email. You > can't just set defaults that'll work. Right. > And you have the fun of convincing them to bother. That's why list management packages should be able to just strip the text/html portion. Many already can. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 17:22:02 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA23711; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:08:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6DE817EB0 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:07:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1E11lj26556; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:01:47 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:06:53 -0800 Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Adam Bailey , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200102132310.RAA10897@mail.xnet.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/13/01 3:11 PM, "Adam Bailey" wrote: > Your subscriber base doesn't represent the demographic of the Internet. > Most list owners see AOL and Hotmail as their two top subscriber groups. 12-13% -- or higher. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty. To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 17:52:06 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA23979; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:40:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.xnet.com (quake.xnet.com [198.147.221.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A8FF17EB0 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:40:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (adamb.xnet.com [205.243.156.212]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id TAA20709 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:40:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200102140140.TAA20709@mail.xnet.com> Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:41:34 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: "List-Managers" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/13/01 7:06 PM, Chuq Von Rospach wrote... >On 2/13/01 3:11 PM, "Adam Bailey" wrote: > >> Your subscriber base doesn't represent the demographic of the Internet. >> Most list owners see AOL and Hotmail as their two top subscriber groups. > >12-13% -- or higher. *Each*. My lists bear that out. So that's 20% between the two. Hard to ignore. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 21:07:05 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA25989; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:03:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E2A317EAF for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:03:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14Su5v-0003g1-00; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:03:11 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Adam Bailey , List-Managers Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:06:53 PST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:03:11 -0800 Message-ID: <14135.982126991@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:06:53 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/13/01 3:11 PM, "Adam Bailey" wrote: >> Your subscriber base doesn't represent the demographic of the >> Internet. Most list owners see AOL and Hotmail as their two top >> subscriber groups. > 12-13% -- or higher. I just checked: 2.2% here. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 21:23:51 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA25846; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:53:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9278A17EAF for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:53:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14Stw5-0000Jh-00; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:53:01 -0800 To: Adam Bailey Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? In-Reply-To: Message from Adam Bailey of "Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:11:34 CST." <200102132310.RAA10897@mail.xnet.com> References: <200102132310.RAA10897@mail.xnet.com> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:53:01 -0800 Message-ID: <1218.982126381@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:11:34 -0600 Adam Bailey wrote: > Your subscriber base doesn't represent the demographic of the > Internet. Most list owners see AOL and Hotmail as their two top > subscriber groups. I know (and am rather glad of that). I tender to rather technically oriented members. >> (Oddly enough two of the more active AOL posters (ie just above >> lurkers) post straight text messages with no HTML -- I haven't >> looked to see how they do this). > They're probably not using AOL 6. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 21:37:07 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA26047; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:08:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9499217EAF for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:07:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14SuAY-0005th-00; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:07:58 -0800 To: Adam Bailey Cc: "List-Managers" Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? In-Reply-To: Message from Adam Bailey of "Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:41:34 CST." <200102140140.TAA20709@mail.xnet.com> References: <200102140140.TAA20709@mail.xnet.com> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:07:58 -0800 Message-ID: <22671.982127278@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:41:34 -0600 Adam Bailey wrote: > On 2/13/01 7:06 PM, Chuq Von Rospach > wrote... >> On 2/13/01 3:11 PM, "Adam Bailey" wrote: >> >>> Your subscriber base doesn't represent the demographic of the >>> Internet. Most list owners see AOL and Hotmail as their two top >>> subscriber groups. >> 12-13% -- or higher. > *Each*. My lists bear that out. So that's 20% between the > two. Hard to ignore. I have 2.2% AOL, 5.4% Hotmail (which surprises me), 2.1% yahoo, 0.3% MSN. They're *way* down in the posters rankings, even if I aggregate all the above, quite possibly under .01%, tho that figure will have been historically affected by my refusal to accept HTML. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 14 07:40:15 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA04851; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:28:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx03.nexgo.de (mx03.nexgo.de [151.189.8.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBDB817EAF for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:28:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [213.7.119.4] (pp.142.64.fra.germanynet.de [151.189.142.64]) by mx03.nexgo.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B43917ED9 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:28:34 +0100 (CET) X-Sender: u0604325@pop3.rol3.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:28:22 +0100 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: John Neale Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> Your subscriber base doesn't represent the demographic of the >> Internet. Most list owners see AOL and Hotmail as their two top >> subscriber groups. > >I know (and am rather glad of that). I tender to rather technically >oriented members. Demime does the job perfectly for a majordomo list I administer. The list is for "normal" people ie 30% AOL, 20% Yahoo/Hotmail. 3000+ members. We initially begged AOLers not to upgrade to 6.0 till we'd fixed the HTML problem. Since we installed demime, the adminstrator's life has been somewhat easier :-) I'm neither defending nor advocating, but I operate in the real world with real people who stick with default settings. So if emails go out in HTML by default, I have live with that. John >Sigh. I've answered this about 6 times this month... but here it is again: >Demime home page: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.html >Demime perl script: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.stable >Demime config file: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime_junkmail.cf >Demime email list: demime-l@scifi.squawk.com > >Takes out attachments, removes freebie ISP ads, turns HTML into >formatted plain text. Free. -- mailto:jneale@webshowcase.net http://www.webshowcase.net/johnneale From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 14 11:24:05 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA07241; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:07:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from msic.dia.mil (msic-450.msic.dia.mil [136.205.227.211]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490CA17EAF for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:07:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [136.205.227.85] (account allan HELO msic.dia.mil) by msic.dia.mil (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4b9) with ESMTP id 974378 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:08:32 -0600 Message-ID: <3A8AD78F.F0F802F1@msic.dia.mil> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:08:07 -0600 From: Allan Newsome Reply-To: allan@msic.dia.mil X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Demime has worked PERFECTLY for me as well. I'm running a majordomo list with 1700+ subscribers in the Digest mode. Demime saved me when AOL 6.0 came along and I got the hint to use DEMIME right here on this list. My list is 27% AOL and 18% Yahoo/Hotmail and it's just "normal" folks as well (i.e. not technical folks). Allan Newsome The Andy Griffith Show Rerun Watchers Club http://mayberry.com/tagsrwc/ John Neale wrote: > Demime does the job perfectly for a majordomo list I administer. The list > is for "normal" people ie 30% AOL, 20% Yahoo/Hotmail. 3000+ members. We > initially begged AOLers not to upgrade to 6.0 till we'd fixed the HTML > problem. Since we installed demime, the adminstrator's life has been > somewhat easier :-) From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 15 02:47:46 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id CAA16799; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 02:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from bandsman.co.uk (gundam.dev.tadpole.co.uk [160.104.129.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B94D17E8B for ; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 02:27:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by bandsman.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA01118 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:28:18 GMT From: Nigel Horne Organization: Wharfedale Computers Ltd. Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:28:18 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM References: <200102150900.BAA15081@honor.greatcircle.com> In-Reply-To: <200102150900.BAA15081@honor.greatcircle.com> Subject: Re: What to do about HTML-only email? MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01021510281800.01098@laptop.bandsman.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a sed script to do this. If anyone wants a copy drop me a line. -Nigel From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 16 07:40:14 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA17787; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.rev.net (mail.rev.net [206.67.68.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DEF417EB1 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from fantasy (USER18.GVA.NET [216.80.135.22]) by mail.rev.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f1GFZTx16986 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:35:30 -0500 Message-Id: <200102161535.f1GFZTx16986@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:35:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Oh how I love HTML email X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Amidst everything else that sucks about HTML email, I just found a new one (new to me at least): one person has a fancy HTML-ized .signature that includes both a .jpg. and a .gif. So every message he sends includes about 40K of base64-encoded junk... Such a joy. [Turns out he's not a member of any list I'm on, but the sysadmin of my ISP [of all people!], but I can see that kind of thing coming: the "modern" incarnation of the animated ASCII .sigs we used to have to deal with in days past [best that they're gone, but many of them were very cool... I am still fond of the one that had a guy shooting an arrow across the bottom of the message..:o)] /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 16 08:39:01 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA18443; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:36:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B2F8E17EB1 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:36:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23328 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Feb 2001 16:36:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20010216163621.23327.qmail@celery.tssi.com> From: nolan@celery.tssi.com Subject: Oh how I love HTML email To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:36:21 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Amidst everything else that sucks about HTML email, I just found a new > one (new to me at least): one person has a fancy HTML-ized .signature > that includes both a .jpg. and a .gif. So every message he sends > includes about 40K of base64-encoded junk... How much worse is that, really, than the guy who had a .sig over 1000 lines long? I have a friend who has a similarly gunked up .sig, including a sound file! He doesn't seem to care about the bandwidth he's using up. FWIW, I just finished moving my lists over to ezmlm, one of the configuration options it has is to strip out non-text MIME segments. (I had rolled my own non-text segment stripper because I could never get demime to work on my system.) -- Mike Nolan Off topic comment of the day: There is a website for people in the entertaiment industry to look up actors, writers, etc., and see who their agents are, i.e., who represents them. The url is http://www.whorepresents.com, which I suspect won't pass muster on some anti-porn filters. From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 16 10:09:06 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA19138; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:58:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from blipvert.blank.org (unknown [216.112.239.86]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9A78817E8E for ; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2362 invoked by uid 500); 16 Feb 2001 17:58:24 -0000 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:58:23 -0500 From: "Nathan J. Mehl" To: nolan@celery.tssi.com Cc: List Managers Subject: Re: Oh how I love HTML email Message-ID: <20010216125823.B24549@blank.org> References: <20010216163621.23327.qmail@celery.tssi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010216163621.23327.qmail@celery.tssi.com>; from nolan@celery.tssi.com on Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 10:36:21AM -0600 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of nolan@celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com): > > Amidst everything else that sucks about HTML email, I just found a new > > one (new to me at least): one person has a fancy HTML-ized .signature > > that includes both a .jpg. and a .gif. So every message he sends > > includes about 40K of base64-encoded junk... > > How much worse is that, really, than the guy who had a .sig over 1000 lines > long? My, I haven't thought about kibo in a while. -n ------------------------------------------------------------ Calling Motif a GUI is like calling a pile of bricks an apartment building. ------------------------------------------------ From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 16 10:25:02 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA19262; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:08:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.rev.net (mail.rev.net [206.67.68.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3432817E8E for ; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from fantasy (USER18.GVA.NET [216.80.135.22]) by mail.rev.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f1GI8ds29715 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:08:40 -0500 Message-Id: <200102161808.f1GI8ds29715@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:08:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Oh how I love HTML email In-reply-to: <20010216163621.23327.qmail@celery.tssi.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 16 Feb 2001, at 10:36, nolan@celery.tssi.com wrote: > > Amidst everything else that sucks about HTML email, I just found a new > > one (new to me at least): one person has a fancy HTML-ized .signature > > that includes both a .jpg. and a .gif. So every message he sends > > includes about 40K of base64-encoded junk... > > How much worse is that, really, than the guy who had a .sig over 1000 lines > long? None, of course, BUT: just as with everything else to do with HTML, the tools make it easy for the clueless to cause trouble. .sigs that long in the text-email era were, at best, rare. The problem is going to be that just as most of the html-email crowd have no clue that their 50-char [as it looks to them] email message actually took up 250 chars of  s and multipart-alternatives and such...it'll probably just be a draganddrop or two together with a few mouse clicks and you, too, can have a 250K .signature and be the envy of all... At least with the old text based clients you had to work at it to get a huge sig [and actually animating it was beyond the skills of most]. HTML email isn't breaking any particular new ground [indeed, as I've already posted here several times, folks have been at work trying to make better- than-plain-text email virtually for as long as there has BEEN email] --- What's new and different is the general level of expertise/cluedness of the newest wave coupled with the nature of the tools they find themselves using that'll cause a new wave of headaches... And as a side note, I bet that even a 1000-line text .signature isn't as large as (or certainly not much largef than) the .sig that the sysadmin sent me [without any real effort on his part and without even giving it a thought]. A behemoth, rare, you hardly ever see one such, 1000-line sig was probably 35K or 40K long and probably required some effort to compose [I remember 40-screen-long ones with things like D00DZ in multi-line block letters and such]. That stupid .sig I got today, with the .jpg and the .gif, was 45K. I can only imagine how large it is going to get when he figures out to drag-and-drop a .mp3 sound file (or .mpeg animation) into his .sig template... it's all the same to him and none of it is a problem for HIM, so why should he care... Contemplate the digests when every 10-char submission includes a behemoth .signature [and the 'reply at the top, include the ENTIRE original at the bottom' crowd will have the copies of the behemoth .signatures of EVERY PRIOR post bundled along with theirs, adding to the fun]. If your MLM has a 50K limit per-digest, you might find that you're sending out "one message" digests... /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 16 12:54:06 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA21026; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:42:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D5A917E8E for ; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:42:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14TriH-0002m6-00; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:42:45 -0800 To: "Bernie Cosell" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Oh how I love HTML email In-Reply-To: Message from "Bernie Cosell" of "Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:08:36 EST." <200102161808.f1GI8ds29715@mail.rev.net> References: <200102161808.f1GI8ds29715@mail.rev.net> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:42:45 -0800 Message-ID: <10668.982356165@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:08:36 -0500 Bernie Cosell wrote: > Contemplate the digests when every 10-char submission includes a > behemoth .signature [and the 'reply at the top, include the ENTIRE > original at the bottom' crowd will have the copies of the behemoth > .signatures of EVERY PRIOR post bundled along with theirs, adding > to the fun]. If your MLM has a 50K limit per-digest, you might > find that you're sending out "one message" digests... I've found that rejecting list posts which use the new-text-at-top format seems to encourage signal on my lists. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 19 22:10:48 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA20268; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:56:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from luftpost.plosh.net (unknown [208.185.239.245]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03E617EB0 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:56:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from plosh.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by luftpost.plosh.net (Postfix) with SMTP id D953067A2 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:58:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from 208.185.239.243 (SquirrelMail authenticated user plosher) by luftpost.plosh.net with HTTP; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:58:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1099.208.185.239.243.982648714.squirrel@luftpost.plosh.net> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:58:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. From: "Peter Losher" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.0.2) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I have recently been dealing with an issue that I hope I can get some advice on here. On one of the lists that I maintain & administer, I have had individuals reportedly attack individuals via personal email about things that they have posted on this particular list. In the list rules, I only specify that there be no personal attacks publicly on the list, or they are removed. I have been loathsome to deal with personal attacks via personal email because it comes down to a "he said, she said" a lot of times. Or someone could get pissed off at someone, and forge an attack, and someone gets removed for no reason at all. (o.k., so that one is somewhat far-fetched) In the incident I described before, I banned the abusive individual (who in this case, fessed up to his abusive behavior) from the list. Now the question I have is, now that I realize that this particular list rule needs updating - How have others handled this issue? Is it a case that since the list was where the persons "met", that it's an issue for the list administrator. Is it the case that personal emails are treated as public messages in this case? I am just looking for ideas in how to update this rule, and provide some protection for the rest of the list subscribers... Thanks & Best Wishes - Peter (whose nightmare is to find some "scorned" user somewhere who gets banned, signs up to the list w/ multiple addresses and causes havoc) O.k., so I am paranoid :) -- plosher@plosh.net - [ http://www.plosh.net/ ] From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 19 23:10:49 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA21063; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2505717EB0 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id XAA10485; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:05:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:05:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200102200705.XAA10485@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: plosher@plosh.net Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: <1099.208.185.239.243.982648714.squirrel@luftpost.plosh.net> (plosher@plosh.net) Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. Reply-To: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've generally put offenders into one of two categories: 1) Personal conflict. If two people write privately and they start exchanging nasty emails (including a post having generated nasty emails from the start), I consider it a personal issue and stay out of it. If the victim writes me, I offer support as a friend or aquaintaince (as appropriate) but I tell them it is their job to resolve it, not mine. 2) Using my list to find people to spam, attack, etc. If someone gets addresses from my list (from those who have posted; the list of subscribers is closed) and uses them to send commercial messages or even non-commercial ones, they get kicked off. If there is a pattern of them harressing individuals after finding them on my list, I also kick them off. The cases you mention could go either way, depending on whether or not this is a heated disagreement or a pattern of abuse. That's how I do it anyway. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com http://www.tikvah.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 19 23:40:50 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA21297; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:34:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from luftpost.plosh.net (unknown [208.185.239.245]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1983817EB0 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:33:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from plosh.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by luftpost.plosh.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 229FD67A2; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:35:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from 208.185.239.243 (SquirrelMail authenticated user plosher) by luftpost.plosh.net with HTTP; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:35:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1161.208.185.239.243.982654557.squirrel@luftpost.plosh.net> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:35:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. From: "Peter Losher" To: cnorman@best.com In-Reply-To: <200102200705.XAA10485@shell7.ba.best.com> References: <200102200705.XAA10485@shell7.ba.best.com> Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.0.2) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > If there is a pattern > of them harressing individuals after finding them on my list, I also > kick them off. That's probably the closest to my current situation, someone attacking a list member privately for something he/she said publicly to the list. Is there something in your list rules that states this (as they say, the devil is in the posted list rules) or is this something you do on a case-by-case basis? Best Wishes - Peter (former shell9 refugee) :) -- plosher@plosh.net - [ http://www.plosh.net/ ] From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 01:26:21 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA23646; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailstore-1.mail.knowledge.com (frida.server.knowledge.com [213.170.2.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D182A17E8C for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:18:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from knowledgematters-7.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.203.119] helo=peterdesktop) by mailstore-1.mail.knowledge.com with asmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14V8w3-0001Oq-00; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:18:15 +0000 Message-ID: <010201c09b1e$19d22320$77cb87d4@n3.uk.knowtion.net> From: "Peter Galbavy" To: "Peter Losher" , References: <1099.208.185.239.243.982648714.squirrel@luftpost.plosh.net> Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:18:28 -0000 Organization: Knowledge Matters Ltd. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Now the question I have is, now that I realize that this particular list rule needs updating - How have others handled this issue? Is it a case that since the list was where the persons "met", that it's an issue for the list administrator. Is it the case that personal emails are treated as public messages in this case? I am just looking for ideas in how to update this rule, and provide some protection for the rest of the list subscribers... [Please format your lines to < 76 characters or so...] Anyhow, first piece of advice. Consult a lawyer. Now that you have ignored that piece of advice, or can't afford it, think about whether you have the time / patience / inclination to create rules for *every* eventuality that members of your list(s) may get to ? My personal solution, if *any* of my lists had written rules, would be to say that the list administrators decision is final in any matters regarding list membership. This gives you the power to arbitarily remove / suspend subsribers at will, with ot without reason. Does anyone else out there think that privately run lists are subject to some sort of country-specific freedom-of-speech legislation ? If your list has rules, then you have a duty (perhaps legal duty in some circumstances) to adhere to those rules. Reminding members / subscribers that the list is run by *you* and that you make the rules does not harm, unless you abuse that power. People tend to get together and go off and make new mailing lists in these cases. As for the off-list abuse; that is a problem between those people in any normal society. Recognising of course certain types of vicitimisation that may need further personal intervention or that of law enforcement. Peter From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 02:16:26 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA24149; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:59:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailstore-1.mail.knowledge.com (frida.server.knowledge.com [213.170.2.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF5F217E8C for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:59:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from knowledgematters-7.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.203.119] helo=peterdesktop) by mailstore-1.mail.knowledge.com with asmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14V9Zb-0004sd-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:59:07 +0000 Message-ID: <026001c09b23$cfadac00$77cb87d4@n3.uk.knowtion.net> From: "Peter Galbavy" To: Subject: FAQ: MLM comparisons and features Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:59:20 -0000 Organization: Knowledge Matters Ltd. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sorry for the waste of b/w, but I cannot find an up-to-date FAQ regarding available MLM software. I am looking for a starting point to go and review current and *maintained* (free) software. If it helps, the requirement is more one of code study at this stage, since we are going to implement a mailing list management system that sits on top of a (out) provisioning database. If any of the existing packages are flexible enough to do this with a small amount of integration work, then great; but I strongly suspect that the end result will be a "bodge". Enligh term, look it up ;-) For those interested our current system uses flat files and majordomo 1.9x as a management system and some exim hacks as the list-expansion tool. It is very very far from perfect. It will be replaced while we get the SQL backend going :) rgds, -- Peter Galbavy Knowledge Matters Ltd. http://www.knowledge.com/ From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 06:25:53 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA28888; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0F3817E8C for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:17:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl_120w70 [151.202.20.126]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1KEHCB28580 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:17:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:16:21 -0500 From: Tom Neff To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: personal attacks Message-ID: <3408038215.982660581@[192.168.1.101]> In-Reply-To: <200102200900.BAA22452@honor.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.6 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk If your list is one where only members can read postings, and only approved requests can add a member, then kicking off an abusive private emailer might be effective. If, on the other hand, there are publicly readable archives, or anyone can join, then it is hard to prevent a recurrence of the problem UNLESS member addresses are "cloaked" in the archives, postings, or both. (Cloaking member addresses in publicly readable archives is also a good anti-spam measure.) You might also keep a list of mail-filtering resources handy, and forward it to any complaining member. Teaching them to protect themselves from harrassment will have benefits that outlast the initial crisis. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 09:12:15 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA00928; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:07:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailstore-1.mail.knowledge.com (frida.server.knowledge.com [213.170.2.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B504017E8C for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:07:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from knowledgematters-7.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.203.119] helo=peterdesktop) by mailstore-1.mail.knowledge.com with asmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14VGGY-0006tE-00; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:07:54 +0000 Message-ID: <011c01c09b5f$b5cd4160$77cb87d4@n3.uk.knowtion.net> From: "Peter Galbavy" To: "J C Lawrence" Cc: References: <026001c09b23$cfadac00$77cb87d4@n3.uk.knowtion.net> <29415.982688031@kanga.nu> Subject: Re: FAQ: MLM comparisons and features Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:08:07 -0000 Organization: Knowledge Matters Ltd. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > While Mailman is not current a good choice for this, the > architecture that we've been discussing for V3 (essentially a mix of > discrete processing and process queues) would adapt to this pattern > easily. My current thought are to leave queue management and outward mail delivery with exim, as we can use the logging output in an integrated fashion with normal mail. This will likely be a dedicated exim process/queue/etc. rather than part of the normal mailer. I *like* the way exim queues mail, attempt retries and logs success and error... The rest of the processes; mailing list membership management, authentication, sender verification, digests, archives etc. will be somewhere else. The current candidate is a set of perl modules / functions built ontop of MIMI:: and Mail:: objects. More later... Peter From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 09:25:52 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA00978; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:13:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A9717E8C for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:12:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id JAA13507; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:13:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:13:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200102201713.JAA13507@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: plosher@plosh.net Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: <1161.208.185.239.243.982654557.squirrel@luftpost.plosh.net> (plosher@plosh.net) Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. Reply-To: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:35:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Peter Losher" That's probably the closest to my current situation, someone attacking a list member privately for something he/she said publicly to the list. Is there something in your list rules that states this (as they say, the devil is in the posted list rules) or is this something you do on a case-by-case basis? My stated rule is "be nice" but I don't have anything specific about off-list attacks. I guess I ought to. Cyndi (still hanging at shell7) -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com http://www.tikvah.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 09:41:26 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA00753; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8121917E8C for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14VG2x-0007eT-00; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:53:51 -0800 To: "Peter Galbavy" Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: FAQ: MLM comparisons and features In-Reply-To: Message from "Peter Galbavy" of "Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:59:20 GMT." <026001c09b23$cfadac00$77cb87d4@n3.uk.knowtion.net> References: <026001c09b23$cfadac00$77cb87d4@n3.uk.knowtion.net> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:53:51 -0800 Message-ID: <29415.982688031@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:59:20 -0000 Peter Galbavy wrote: > If it helps, the requirement is more one of code study at this > stage, since we are going to implement a mailing list management > system that sits on top of a (out) provisioning database. If any > of the existing packages are flexible enough to do this with a > small amount of integration work, then great; but I strongly > suspect that the end result will be a "bodge". While Mailman is not current a good choice for this, the architecture that we've been discussing for V3 (essentially a mix of discrete processing and process queues) would adapt to this pattern easily. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 09:56:00 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA01264; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:37:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailstore-1.mail.knowledge.com (frida.server.knowledge.com [213.170.2.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4848B17E8C for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:37:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from knowledgematters-7.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.203.119] helo=peterdesktop) by mailstore-1.mail.knowledge.com with asmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14VGix-0001z1-00; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:37:15 +0000 Message-ID: <018a01c09b63$cf739520$77cb87d4@n3.uk.knowtion.net> From: "Peter Galbavy" To: "J C Lawrence" Cc: References: <026001c09b23$cfadac00$77cb87d4@n3.uk.knowtion.net> <29415.982688031@kanga.nu> <011c01c09b5f$b5cd4160$77cb87d4@n3.uk.knowtion.net> <2440.982690262@kanga.nu> Subject: Re: FAQ: MLM comparisons and features Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:37:29 -0000 Organization: Knowledge Matters Ltd. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > You are misunderstanding me (which is not surprinsing as I didn't > detail this). Mailman is not intentding to take over any of the MTA > jobs, be it Exim, Postfix, QMail, or even Sendmail. Mailman is MTA > agnostic and is intended to remain so. Nah, I was just wittering. Far easier than misundersatnding. > The queue processing I allude to above is in terms of Mailman's > internal operations. Messages come into queues, move among a series > of queues as they wander through the system, and finally end up in > queues before being handed off to the MTA for final delivery. By > taking a process queue model and discreete processing it becomes > very easy to make Mailman promiscuous and integrated with the rest > of system. Sounds good. I will keep an eye out for it :) Peter From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 10:10:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA01660; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:01:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.81]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24DEB17E8C for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:00:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org ([65.5.124.106]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010220180027.HHDX20174.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ee-nt.climber.org>; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:00:27 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20010220090234.01ab2620@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:10:28 -0800 To: "Peter Losher" From: SRE Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <1099.208.185.239.243.982648714.squirrel@luftpost.plosh.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:58 PM 2/19/01, Peter Losher wrote: >Thanks & Best Wishes - Peter >(whose nightmare is to find some "scorned" user somewhere who gets >banned, signs up to the list w/ multiple addresses and causes havoc) "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you." I had exactly what you describe happen to me... it lasted TWO YEARS, included throw-away account subscriptions from dozens of freebie ISPs, and was ultimately resolved by changing all lists on my server to require list owner permission before a subscription was completed. I also implemented per-day and per-week posting limits in software. In one respect, "calliger@infolane.com" won. (I'm posting that address here so you'll all be on notice that he's bad news.) All users of my dozens of lists are impacted by the subscription monitoring. Many of the lists were spammed repeatedly by Calliger using aliases. NOTE: There is a HUGE security hole in some list server software. If you have your lists set up to require "accepting a token" style confirmation, the spammer can fire off a bunch of subscribe requests, then spam your list, then be kicked off and locked out... and even with domain blocks in place can accept the pending tokens and spam again. Not the garden-variety spammer, this one. Have a look at http://www.climber.org/eckert/allegations/ to see the lengths he went to... and the lies he told. The final resolution was to go to the organization where we "met", and get them to vote sanctions on him that had nothing to do with my server. He no longer has an audience that can be fooled, but weeks of several people's time was wasted in the process. If a similar thing happens in the future, I will boot the offender MUCH SOONER. Waiting and hoping they will change is dumb. SRE mailto:eckert@climber.org | http://www.climber.org/eckert/ Info on peak climbing email lists mailto:info@climber.org "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." -- Mark Twain From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 10:25:52 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA01113; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:25:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1067C17EBE for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:25:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa15012 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 9:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 20 Feb 01 07:23:07 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 01 07:20:54 PST In-Reply-To: <200102200705.XAA10485@shell7.ba.best.com> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Cyndi Norman writes: > I've generally put offenders into one of two categories: > > 1) Personal conflict. If two people write privately and they start > exchanging nasty emails (including a post having generated nasty emails > from the start), I consider it a personal issue and stay out of it. If the > victim writes me, I offer support as a friend or aquaintaince (as > appropriate) but I tell them it is their job to resolve it, not mine. I think this is eminently reasonable, but I'd suspect the results will depend on the sort of operation we run. There is a wide range, from large forums with many writers and no shortage of material, to the smaller more elaborate network neighborhoods where the writing takes some effort and emotional ballast as well. Guess which sort I operate. Here's the way it might work. I'll select a random hypothetical event out of a close reading of actual history. This is the way it happened. A new and very exciting prospect edges her nervous way aboard. She is cutting for sign, every moment, and she is, like most fledglings, very reluctant to open herself up to a group until she has some reassurance. So when she finally crosses the Rubicon, she reveals herself as a successful writer, which most would like to be. Immediately and predictably, there is resisting resentment thrown up. Not everyone can write, but everyone can critic, and it's the great leveler among the unaccomplished. She receives private hit mail from concerned old-timers who feel threatened. So we have a potentially insanely great admission to our crew on point of dropping us suddenly because some useless drag on all of us is condescending to advise her privately that she isn't making the grade, that isn't what we do here, better take yer show on the road, sweetie. If you prefer a list of do-nothing bums to a thriving network, then by all means remain neutral. Of course, as I say, if your bunch is huge with say chat commentary on pop topics like the cold chisel with plenty of action all the time, then you can afford neutrality during offstage squabbles. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "Readers meeting Writers as the Sea the Very Sky" Send: subscribe nerdnosh To: majordomo@story.nerdnosh.org From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 10:40:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA01212; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:31:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1290417E8C for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:31:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14VGcw-0000dN-00; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:31:02 -0800 To: "Peter Galbavy" Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: FAQ: MLM comparisons and features In-Reply-To: Message from "Peter Galbavy" of "Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:08:07 GMT." <011c01c09b5f$b5cd4160$77cb87d4@n3.uk.knowtion.net> References: <026001c09b23$cfadac00$77cb87d4@n3.uk.knowtion.net> <29415.982688031@kanga.nu> <011c01c09b5f$b5cd4160$77cb87d4@n3.uk.knowtion.net> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:31:02 -0800 Message-ID: <2440.982690262@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:08:07 -0000 Peter Galbavy wrote: >> While Mailman is not current a good choice for this, the >> architecture that we've been discussing for V3 (essentially a mix >> of discrete processing and process queues) would adapt to this >> pattern easily. > My current thought are to leave queue management and outward mail > delivery with exim, as we can use the logging output in an > integrated fashion with normal mail. This will likely be a > dedicated exim process/queue/etc. rather than part of the normal > mailer. I *like* the way exim queues mail, attempt retries and > logs success and error... You are misunderstanding me (which is not surprinsing as I didn't detail this). Mailman is not intentding to take over any of the MTA jobs, be it Exim, Postfix, QMail, or even Sendmail. Mailman is MTA agnostic and is intended to remain so. The queue processing I allude to above is in terms of Mailman's internal operations. Messages come into queues, move among a series of queues as they wander through the system, and finally end up in queues before being handed off to the MTA for final delivery. By taking a process queue model and discreete processing it becomes very easy to make Mailman promiscuous and integrated with the rest of system. Where does your membership list come from? LDAP? SQL? text file? Run-this-program-to-find-out? All of the above simultaneously? Not a problem. Just drop the appropriate modules in the right places and it will work just fine. Mail will be received by system A, authenticated by system B, the membership list is only available on system C, and you'd like to the outbound processing on system D (think security models, DMZ's, and compartmentalisation)? Not a problem. The queues just link up. You're running SourceForge and need everything to parallelise? Not a problem. Just provide basic lock semantics on queue entries and the rest happens automatically. You're running EGroups and need fine grained resource control and allocation? Just replace Mailman's internal queue processing system (which will be pretty wimpy) with a real one ala MQS and then define your allocation and processing rules as appropriate. Divide, be promiscuous, and conquer. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 11:25:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA02772; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from iecc.com (tom.iecc.com [208.31.42.38]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E20B617E8C for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 21792 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2001 14:22:43 -0500 Received: from tom.iecc.com (208.31.42.38) by mail.iecc.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2001 14:22:43 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:22:43 -0500 (EST) From: John R Levine To: SRE Cc: "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010220090234.01ab2620@pop.climber.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > If a similar thing happens in the future, I will boot the offender > MUCH SOONER. Waiting and hoping they will change is dumb. I think that's the most important lesson. People who are amenable to reason will start behaving themselves after one warning. After that, there's no hope and the only question is whether you'll kick them off immediately, or wait for them to wreck the list before you do so. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl, Sewer Commissioner Finger for PGP key, f'print = 3A 5B D0 3F D9 A0 6A A4 2D AC 1E 9E A6 36 A3 47 From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 11:41:13 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA02693; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from glatton.cnchost.com (unknown [207.155.248.47]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B2D17E8C for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:17:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (dsl-64-195-231-125.telocity.com [64.195.231.125]) by glatton.cnchost.com id OAA21561; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:17:45 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010220110347.01f02aa0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:18:10 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: JC Dill Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. In-Reply-To: <200102201713.JAA13507@shell7.ba.best.com> References: <1161.208.185.239.243.982654557.squirrel@luftpost.plosh.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 09:13 AM 2/20/01, Cyndi Norman wrote: > Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:35:57 -0800 (PST) > From: "Peter Losher" > > That's probably the closest to my current situation, someone attacking a > list member privately for something he/she said publicly to the list. Is > there something in your list rules that states this (as they say, the devil > is in the posted list rules) or is this something you do on a case-by-case > basis? > >My stated rule is "be nice" but I don't have anything specific about >off-list attacks. I guess I ought to. I strongly believe that anyone who posts to a list has to accept the replies they get, public and private, good and bad. Further, netiquette indicates that replies that are not of a nature to be interesting to the whole list should be sent by private email, and most personal attacks fall under this rule. But after the poster posts and the replier replies/attacks in private email (following netiquette), what happens next? The simple solution is for the poster to use the "delete" function and ignore the unpleasant reply and not reply to the attacker. This is the adult response. I belive people need to develop their own spines, I'm not running a list to be their surrogate mom. Now, since you run a support list, you might feel differently. If that's the case, then you need to consider just how much you want to be personally responsible for the happiness of your list subscribers as their surrogate mom, which is a somewhat different issue from list management per se, and something only you can decide. However, if the replier/attacker sends *another* email (not responding to a reply from the poster since the poster is not replying (right?), or to another post by the poster) you now have unprovoked harassment. Harassment is something the attacker/replier's ISP should deal with. As the list manager you can also complain to the attacker/replier's ISP along with the poster, asking them to explain their rules about harassing emails to their user. You can also have a rule about harassment in your list rules. However, be sure you completely describe what you consider harassment. For instance, I personally don't consider a single negative personal reply sent via private email in response to a public post to be harassment. It's a *reply*. Stifling "free speech" in the name of having a "nice" list is heading down a slippery slope. Personally I wouldn't do it. Whatever you decide, I hope it works out for you and your list. Good Luck! jc From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 13:33:51 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA04506; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0FE17E8C for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:18:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1KLIPk21802 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:18:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA04675 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:18:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:18:24 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: WAY off-list personal attacks In-Reply-To: <1099.208.185.239.243.982648714.squirrel@luftpost.plosh.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Peter Losher wrote: > ... On one of the lists that I maintain & administer, I have > had individuals reportedly attack individuals via personal > email about things that they have posted on this particular > list. ... The closest thing I've had to this problem was when two subscribers got into a topic-related but completely off-list legal scuffle. A business deal went sour. One had the other arrested by giving false testimony to the police. Friends of the arrested one asked me to boot the fink from the list... At the time, I didn't have any rules covering off-list behavior and I don't plan to add such rules in future. - murr - From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 13:39:35 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA04450; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from foobar.noderunner.net (foobar.noderunner.net [199.34.34.27]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C0E617E8C for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:13:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from kludge (kludge.noderunner.net [64.38.150.70]) by foobar.noderunner.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 320FEB6352 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:15:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001f01c09b83$343232e0$46962640@noderunner.net> From: "Rachel Blackman" To: References: <026001c09b23$cfadac00$77cb87d4@n3.uk.knowtion.net> Subject: Re: MLM comparisons and features Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:22:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Sorry for the waste of b/w, but I cannot find an up-to-date FAQ regarding > available MLM software. I am looking for a starting point to go and review > current and *maintained* (free) software. Hrm. This is from memory and trying to be unbiased. Please, anyone on the list, don't take misinformation personally, just post a correction. :) MAJORDOMO 1.x Written in Perl, Majordomo is in many ways the 'de-facto' standard, simply because it has a huge install-base. Majordomo does, however, have some usability issues; changing between normal and digest modes is an absolute nightmare on invite-only lists, and many features considered 'standard' on other mailing list packages are missing in Majordomo due to age. MAJORDOMO 2.x Written in Perl and not yet released widely, Mj2 is much more powerful. It allows an amazing amount of per-user and per-list configuration control. I have never played with Mj2, but I understand it's a vast improvement over the original. :) LISTSERV Written in C, sold commercially, and not available as source code, LISTSERV is the one that started everything. It has some really nice features, such as an integrated posting database that works over e-mail, so you can give commands to get all the posts by between and , or similar things. It can also be a bit hard to understand for people used to Majordomo-type packages, though, and it likes to run with its own SMTP server and support software. LISTPROC 6.x Written in C and much like Listserv in interface and operation, Listproc 6 is no longer maintained. LISTPROC 7+ Written in C. It went commercial, and I have no idea what Listproc 7 and up are like. PETIDOMO Written in C, I think. I've never run across a list running Petidomo, so I know nothing of it. EZMLM Integrated with qmail. A very powerful package in terms of allowing system users to set up their own mailing lists and using VERP to determine bounces, but it's closely tied to the qmail MTA. LYRIS Written in C, sold commerically, I don't believe source code is available here either. Haven't played with it much. :) SYMPA Written in Perl, Sympa's main strength is that it's amazingly easy to localize into other languages. MAILMAN Written in Python, Mailman has a web-centric administration and user interface, and has an integrated archiving solution. It's under very active development, and is apparently approaching another big rewrite/redesign to pick up performance and features. LISTAR Written in C, Listar is designed around a modular architecture - modules can add new commands, new code for other modules to call, new processing hooks, new user mode flags, etc. Listar is under active development and is right on the verge of a major rewrite to pick up more powerful/friendly MIME handling and abstracted database support as well as some new delivery-management features... but the rewrite has been delayed while a legal situation over names gets resolved. That's all I can think of offhand. --Rachel From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 16:09:39 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA06683; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:59:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.82]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A5417E8C for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:59:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org ([65.5.124.106]) by femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010220235857.EJYF29358.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ee-nt.climber.org>; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:58:57 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20010220153856.00b2b030@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:59:57 -0800 To: "Rachel Blackman" From: SRE Subject: Re: MLM comparisons and features Cc: In-Reply-To: <001f01c09b83$343232e0$46962640@noderunner.net> References: <026001c09b23$cfadac00$77cb87d4@n3.uk.knowtion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:22 PM 2/20/01, Rachel Blackman wrote: >don't take misinformation personally, just post a correction No corrections, how about a few additions? >MAJORDOMO 2.x >Written in Perl and not yet released widely, Mj2 is much more powerful. Absolutely. BTW, the current author has NO PLANS to release the software. >It allows an amazing amount of per-user and per-list configuration control. And the way in which you configure it is still changing. There is no longer compatibility with existing installations, so I've frozen my Mj2 server (no more upgrades). Loading a software upgrade can result (has for me) in non-functioning lists. It's alpha, eh? >I have never played with Mj2, but I understand it's a vast >improvement over the original. :) I think so. On the other hand, the original author is now in the back seat, and a new person has taken over. This was not done by consensus, it was done by the new person putting up his own CVS tree and announcing that he intended to do his own thing regardless of what others did. The original author choose to support the new guy instead of having two competing versions. For a time, NO ONE was working on Mj2, so having someone take over is preferable to simply letting it die. I like Mj2. I use Mj2. I contributed huge amounts of my time to documentation for Mj2, some of which was left out of the distribution. I fear for its future, however. There is only one contributor, and he does what he wants without consulting the small user community. My few code contributions were all rejected. New features are sometimes contorted and illogical, requiring special interactions between sets of configuration options... instead of a clean setup that can be done correctly without consulting the author for an example. You have to LEARN the software, not just browse a few installation instructions. >LISTSERV >likes to run with its own SMTP server and support software It also communicates with the mother ship! I once posted too many messages in parallel on a private server. The server owner saw no harm and took no action, but LSoft (the mother ship) sent me a message saying that my account had been disabled on all listserv lists worldwide for five days. The server's listmaster confirmed that there was nothing he could do to fix this, and that LSoft will not release their algorithms for disabling spammers. Also, unless you take steps to stop it, your entire list configuration will magically appear on LSoft's website, complete with the owner's email address. If you like spyware, you'll love listserv. Given that it has hooks to inform LSoft about who is posting, including how often on how many lists, I keep wondering what else (if anything) it phones home about. Thanks for compiling the features list! SRE mailto:eckert@climber.org | http://www.climber.org/eckert/ Info on peak climbing email lists mailto:info@climber.org Amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 17:25:37 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA07768; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:22:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CE4F17E8C for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:22:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1L1H3i21289; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:17:03 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:22:15 -0800 Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. From: Chuq Von Rospach To: JC Dill , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010220110347.01f02aa0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/20/01 11:18 AM, "JC Dill" wrote: > But after the poster posts and the replier replies/attacks in private email > (following netiquette), what happens next? > > The simple solution is for the poster to use the "delete" function and > ignore the unpleasant reply and not reply to the attacker. I have real problems with this. I agree with you completely if it's criticism. If oyu post an opinion on something, don't get upset if someone disagrees, even strongly. But abuse? We're not talking about the virtual equivalent of someone coming up and yelling "you suck" in your face. We're talking about the virtual equivalent of someone coming up and punching you in the face. They should just take that stoically -- because why? Nobody would in real life. Why is the virtual world different? > I belive people need to develop their own spines, I'm not > running a list to be their surrogate mom. So you don't see yourself as responsible for the actions done while people are in "your house" and under your care? > Stifling "free speech" in the name of having > a "nice" list is heading down a slippery slope. Personally I wouldn't do it. But -- someone will. If you don't keep the trolls from abusing your other users, the other users will shut up, and all you end up with is the trolls. They drive everyone else off, and you end up with someone ELSE defining what is and isn't acceptable on your list isntead of you. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Funny, I don't remember being absent minded. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 17:39:40 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA07730; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:18:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 164A017EC0 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1L1C8i21211; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:12:08 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:17:21 -0800 Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. From: Chuq Von Rospach To: SRE , Peter Losher Cc: List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010220090234.01ab2620@pop.climber.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/20/01 9:10 AM, "SRE" wrote: > I had exactly what you describe happen to me... it lasted TWO YEARS, > included throw-away account subscriptions from dozens of freebie ISPs, Sounds like the fight I had that caused me to ban juno.com from my servers (since rescinded, when I moved from majordomo to mailman, and which I sometimes regret, because the ISP with users most likely to convince me they are simultaneously clueless and arrogant is juno.com. Sigh) > then spam your list, then be kicked off and locked out... and even > with domain blocks in place can accept the pending tokens and spam > again. Not the garden-variety spammer, this one. That's why I now do my blocks at the sendmail level, using the access file. The IP addresses go away. With a couple of my more notorious trolls, the sites they haunt can't even see my HTTP server. You can't subscribe if I reject your mail before it enters the system. > If a similar thing happens in the future, I will boot the offender > MUCH SOONER. Waiting and hoping they will change is dumb. I used to believe it was my responsibility to work things out if at all possible, and I used to spend amazing amounts of time and energy finding ways to not kick people off. A few really good trolls cured me of that. I still will go to great lengths to find ways to work things out with people I feel are worth 'saving' for the list -- but I don't do it just because I feel I should. If I decide you're a troll, you die. Preferably from behind, so you dn't get in a return shot before the head falls off. Too many of the jerks abuse your trying to find a compromise that works for them, you AND the list, and all you do is extend the pain to everyone for that much longer. I finally realized I almost NEVER had these situations work long-term, and I had real uses for that time. As bill cosby says, parents don't want justice, they want quiet. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Some days you're the dog, some days you're the hydrant. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 17:54:43 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA07599; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:09:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15F7A17EC0 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:09:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1L13Li20972; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:03:21 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:08:34 -0800 Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Peter Losher , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1099.208.185.239.243.982648714.squirrel@luftpost.plosh.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/19/01 9:58 PM, "Peter Losher" wrote: > I have recently been dealing with an issue that I hope I can get some advice > on here. On one of the lists that I maintain & administer, I have had > individuals reportedly attack individuals via personal email about things that > they have posted on this particular list. In the list rules, I only specify > that there be no personal attacks publicly on the list, or they are removed. I've been following this for a couple of days with some interest -- lots of interesting perspective here. I just now have time to toss my thoughts into the ring and see if they bounce. I've always been a proponent of the "if it happens because of my mail list, I have a responsibility to it", so my rules have always made it clear that abuse by private mail isn't tolerated. This has gotten me some flack from other admins at times, who prefer a more hands-off approach, and from users who want to tell me it's none of my business -- but when situations are unclear online, I look for real-world comparisons to judge with. In this case, since I like the sports-bar analogy (and I'm the bartender), it's similar to the case where two folks get into a argument in the bar, and then one leaves and waits for the other in the parking lot, and then jumps him. Virtually, you're still on bar property, but not IN the bar, and the situation was caused while they were in the bar. There's a responsibility (and to some degree, a liability) here. As bartender, I'm inside, not outside. If I never hear about the fight or of the fight, there's not a damn thing I can do, obviously. So if neither side comes to me -- it's not my problem. But when one comes to me for help, given the fight started in "my place", I can't NOT get involved. And IMHO, I think there's a potential for legal liability if you refuse to get involved, but I'll leave that for the lawyers to argue. I just refuse to be the precedent. I still feel there's a moral responsibility to protect your parking lot as best you can, even if legally it's not fully under your control. These days I deal with this situation with a couple of rules. First, I make it explicit that if nobody complains, it's by definition not against the list rules (but as admin, I reserve the right to complain to myself, just in case). And if someone does complain, I agree to investigate and see if something needs to be done (never, ever assume that the person who agrees is right, or say something that can be construed as assuming that). My other rule says abuse of my users is not tolerated. I specifically don't say WHERE that abuse happens, public or private. Abuse is abuse. > I have been loathsome to deal with personal attacks via personal email because > it comes down to a "he said, she said" a lot of times. For me, it's simple. I tell both sides that I want copies of all email. I don't care who said what. I care who DID what. I ask both sides to stop talking to each other during the investigation, to let tempers settle, I ask both sides to explain their side of the discussion, and I ask both sides to send copies of all e-mail they sent to each other for the last N days. If the accuser can't give me copies of the e-mail, I won't do anything except tell them to forward me copies of anything in the future. I won't act based on what they said -- I'll act based on evaluating the e-mail itself. 99% of the time, the situation will cleanly resolve itself. Many times, whichever side is being the real idiot in the situation will make it clear to you (mostly by moving the hostility to you), making a decision easy. Pretty much the rest of the time, the simple knowledge that I'm asking for all e-mail and will judge it when I get it will cause the twit back off and shut up. If it's the accuser at fault, asking for evidence usually causes them to get huffy and then shut up, because they have none, and if its a case that someone is being too sensitive to criticism, I can talk to them privately about dealing with it (surprisingly enough, some folks have thin skins....) Only once have I had to deal with someone forging email to get someone in trouble. By getting copies of everything, especially with full headers and received lines, you can almost always figure that out quickly. When I did, that person sure wasn't happy... Once in a while, you simple want to kick both sides in the butt and tell them both to shut up. And in any number of cases, you'll see it's just two people headbutting, and tell them it's not something you need to deal with and they should figure it out without you. Two people fighting is not abuse, and there are good reasons to not choose a side, but tell them t not get blood on the floor and leave them to it. The key, I think, is to get the evidence, don't act on the accusation. And make your own judgement. Just because someone complains doens't mean the complaint is justified. But many times it is, and I think you have to go figure out which is which. I have, by the way, kicked people off the list for accusing others of abusing them, when I found that what was happening was the accusation was the latest round of abuse. The couple of times I've run into that, boy, those folks weren't amused... But that's why you need to play domestic-abuse detective. Get them separated, get their statements, get the evidence, and then decide what's best. Most of the time, the answer is obvious -- which one to slap, whether to slap both, or neither. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. I tried to get a life once, but they were out of stock. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 18:24:41 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA08266; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:09:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A5E0D17E8B for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:09:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17750 invoked by uid 1000); 21 Feb 2001 02:09:30 -0000 Message-ID: <20010221020930.17749.qmail@celery.tssi.com> From: nolan@celery.tssi.com Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:09:30 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Stifling "free speech" in the name of having > > a "nice" list is heading down a slippery slope. Personally I wouldn't do it. > > But -- someone will. If you don't keep the trolls from abusing your other > users, the other users will shut up, and all you end up with is the trolls. > They drive everyone else off, and you end up with someone ELSE defining what > is and isn't acceptable on your list isntead of you. Freedom of speech was never intended to cover speech that someone ELSE is paying for. Ronald Reagan once shouted down a heckler by saying "I'm paying for this microphone!" And freedom of the press covers those who OWN the press, not those who write for it, or to it. In both cases, I think the list manager is entitled if not OBLIGATED to set the groundrules and enforce them. Call up the editor of your local paper and ask if they would run a classified ad selling a bicycle under 'houses for sale'. I bet they won't, and you cannot force them to do so in court, either. They have the right as the owner of the publication to enforce their rules upon it. So do we. When I have subscribers irate at me for suppressing their right of free speech, which they interpret as being able to say anything they want any way they want to say it, I tell them to set up their own list and run it whatever way they want. One actually did. After a few months, he came back to my list, because it was a hell of a lot less work than running his own. And he has been one of the more vocal supporters of my content management activity since then, too. == Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 21:09:39 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA10069; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ECF417E8B for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:54:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1L4se113596 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA23569 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:54:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:54:38 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: List-Managers Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/20/01 11:18 AM, "JC Dill" wrote: > > > But after the poster posts and the replier replies/attacks in private email > > (following netiquette), what happens next? > > > > The simple solution is for the poster to use the "delete" function and > > ignore the unpleasant reply and not reply to the attacker. > > I have real problems with this. I agree with you completely > if it's criticism. If oyu post an opinion on something, don't > get upset if someone disagrees, even strongly. > > But abuse? We're not talking about the virtual equivalent of > someone coming up and yelling "you suck" in your face. We're > talking about the virtual equivalent of someone coming up and > punching you in the face. They should just take that > stoically -- because why? Nobody would in real life. Why is > the virtual world different? I'd have to know what you meant by "abuse" in this case Chuq. If someone is mail bombing, spamming, threatening physical violence, attempting extortion, etc. in response to a post on my list, I'd punt the abusive subscriber and advise the person who was attacked to contact their ISP or the police... How would you define "abuse" by private email? At what level of abuse would you take action as a list-admin? I'd have to know the circumstances. I'm more protective of newbies and others who aren't well seasoned. On the other hand, I don't want to take sides in a random private flame war. If memory serves, you and I have swapped a few fairly spirited emails both private and public. As far as I know, neither of us got the list admin involved. - murr - From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 21:39:40 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA10098; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:58:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.inet.fi (smtp.inet.fi [192.89.123.192]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFA6617E8B for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:58:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-153.dyn.arenanet.fi ([194.241.254.153]:1455 "HELO pc001") by smtp.inet.fi with SMTP id ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 06:58:21 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010221065840.017395b0@mail.inet.fi> X-Sender: xyzxyz-1@mail.inet.fi X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 06:58:40 +0200 To: tomi.snellman@kolumbus.fi From: Christel Nyman Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. Cc: List-Managers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/20/01 9:10 AM, "SRE" wrote: > I had exactly what you describe happen to me... it lasted TWO YEARS, > included throw-away account subscriptions from dozens of freebie ISPs, Sounds like the fight I had that caused me to ban juno.com from my servers (since rescinded, when I moved from majordomo to mailman, and which I sometimes regret, because the ISP with users most likely to convince me they are simultaneously clueless and arrogant is juno.com. Sigh) > then spam your list, then be kicked off and locked out... and even > with domain blocks in place can accept the pending tokens and spam > again. Not the garden-variety spammer, this one. That's why I now do my blocks at the sendmail level, using the access file. The IP addresses go away. With a couple of my more notorious trolls, the sites they haunt can't even see my HTTP server. You can't subscribe if I reject your mail before it enters the system. > If a similar thing happens in the future, I will boot the offender > MUCH SOONER. Waiting and hoping they will change is dumb. I used to believe it was my responsibility to work things out if at all possible, and I used to spend amazing amounts of time and energy finding ways to not kick people off. A few really good trolls cured me of that. I still will go to great lengths to find ways to work things out with people I feel are worth 'saving' for the list -- but I don't do it just because I feel I should. If I decide you're a troll, you die. Preferably from behind, so you dn't get in a return shot before the head falls off. Too many of the jerks abuse your trying to find a compromise that works for them, you AND the list, and all you do is extend the pain to everyone for that much longer. I finally realized I almost NEVER had these situations work long-term, and I had real uses for that time. As bill cosby says, parents don't want justice, they want quiet. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Some days you're the dog, some days you're the hydrant. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 21:55:12 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA10326; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:24:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1E1D17E8B for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:24:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14VRl3-0005Xs-00; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:24:09 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: SRE , Peter Losher , List-Managers Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:17:21 PST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:24:09 -0800 Message-ID: <21318.982733049@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:17:21 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > As bill cosby says, parents don't want justice, they want quiet. I find myself retroactively interested in this thread. The tone of one of my lists has begun to suffer becoming somewhat caustic and aggressive, far from the professional slightly chummy yet formal attitude it had (and I took so long building). Tracing of adjective patterns (the most effective way I've found to trace culture shift sources) points to one of the more intellectually dismissive/patronising members who posts frequently, is religiously on-topic, never attacks members, and in all public manners fits within every rule one could think of. Yet, he is sabotauging the very community basis that found the list and its value without also providing himself as a target for moderation or removal. Minor background: It is an older list, stretchning back informally to 1985, but only publicly in to 1996. It has become the central point for the field, sufficiently so to be referred to as "the list" by most of the field, and to attract basically all the big names as well as all the development teams as members. As such the list carries considerable weight and influence, but has only become so effective due to it being unaffiliated and unrelated to any of them or their projects and religiously taking a rigorously non-commercial even handed approach. Recently I've become involved in founding a non-profit technical association (ala Usenix) for the field, which turns out to be in direct competition with one of his commercial ventures and has caused him to have to re-write his business plans to work around the non-profit and attempt to salvage his sunk costs. The last time I ran into this sort of case I spent several weeks maneuvering that person to the point where he unsubscribed himself. Doing that took considerable time and effort; more than I have available at this point. I was also aided by events in that person's personal life at that time which helped distract him (alcohol and family problems). I don't have those luxuries this time, especially as the business model for two of his companies are directly affected by the list (the list remains in semi-direct competition with the one caught by the non-profit), and he has considerable personal motivation to pursue and contest any action. I find myself somewhat in a quandry as to how to approach this. Approaching him will not help (done before, behaviour worsened, he has little to lose and a lot to gain). The list is hand moderated. The temptation is to silently boot him. Several long standing members have as much as suggested this. However, he has enough of a public figure to make enough noise and rucus over my "unfair, prejudicial and discriminatory" behaviour in doing so than I have time to handle at this point (the first conference for the technical association is under a month away). Ideas on approaching this? -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 22:28:43 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA10805; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:09:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.82]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC87017E8B for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:09:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org ([65.5.124.106]) by femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010221060854.ONMT29358.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ee-nt.climber.org>; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:08:54 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20010220220329.00b28790@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:10:05 -0800 To: J C Lawrence From: SRE Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. Cc: List-Managers In-Reply-To: <21318.982733049@kanga.nu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:24 PM 2/20/01, J C Lawrence wrote: >Yet, he is sabotauging the very community basis that found the list >and its value without also providing himself as a target for >moderation or removal. If he can ruin the list without breaking any rules, you need to announce NEW RULES! Try writing down how often and what he posts, see if you can find a pattern, and see if it's REALLY different from what others do (frequency, changing the subject, whatever). When a poster generates more complaints than compliments, I tell them (ON LIST, IN PUBLIC) that their attitude is burning up my time dealing with complaints. If others come to their defense, I have to leave them alone. If not, they get booted. I even set up a "list-issues" list so the quiet people don't have to listen to the yelling about who can say what. I filter the main lists as needed to keep the issues discussion in "the back room", and I invite people to contact me off-list if they don't want to say something for or against the attacker on-list. Sometimes I find out that no one but me is bothered, and I back off. Most of the time I hear "hurrah for the good guys - nail the bastard" and then it doesn't matter if he broke the list rules: The mob rules! SRE mailto:eckert@climber.org | http://www.climber.org/eckert/ Info on peak climbing email lists mailto:info@climber.org "A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." -- Adlai Stevenson From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 22:56:02 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA11094; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:44:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8647417E8B for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:44:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1L6iYO01407 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:44:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA26481 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:44:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:44:33 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: List Managers Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. In-Reply-To: <20010221020930.17749.qmail@celery.tssi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 nolan@celery.tssi.com wrote: >>> Stifling "free speech" in the name of having a "nice" >>> list is heading down a slippery slope. Personally I wouldn't >>> do it. > > Freedom of speech was never intended to cover speech that > someone ELSE is paying for. Ronald Reagan once shouted down > a heckler by saying "I'm paying for this microphone!" I don't know who wrote the original "slippery slope" comment. You could both be right. The list admin has every right to define and enforce rules of acceptable behavior for their list. For some discussion lists, those rules should be extremely loose. This is definitely a list-specific issue. Set up the rules that are right for your forum. Random off-topic rants or ad-hominem attacks are rarely acceptable on any list. On most discussion forums it would be inappropriate for the admin to squelch views that simply didn't agree with those of the management. - murr - From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 23:13:33 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA11141; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5964417EAF for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:48:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 20896 invoked by uid 1000); 21 Feb 2001 06:48:56 -0000 Message-ID: <20010221064856.20895.qmail@celery.tssi.com> From: nolan@celery.tssi.com Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:48:56 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: J C Lawrence > > I find myself retroactively interested in this thread. The tone of > one of my lists has begun to suffer becoming somewhat caustic and > aggressive, far from the professional slightly chummy yet formal > attitude it had (and I took so long building). Based on your description, it sounds like both you and the other person both have some degree of conflict of interest with the list itself. Is your community commenting on (and objecting to) the change in tone or is it just you? And if the latter, are you sure it isn't because of your other venture? No offense intended, but without more details or lurking on the list, it might be difficult to offer a more precise evaluation. On one of my own lists, we have had an evolution over time. Some of our better (and more technically competent) posters have gotten tired of having their expertise questioned and moved on to other venues for the subject. And in many cases, it wasn't intended to be criticism, it was just a free-flowing discussion in which assumptions were not always the same. To use a simplified example, if every time a poster writes 'The car is blue', someone questions whether their definition of blue is the same as someone else's, after a while the first poster gets tired of it. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 23:28:30 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA11359; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:05:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from glatton.cnchost.com (unknown [207.155.248.47]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AEFE17EAF for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:05:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (dsl-64-195-231-125.telocity.com [64.195.231.125]) by glatton.cnchost.com id CAA18924; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 02:05:03 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010220225949.024dceb0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:02:44 -0800 To: nolan@celery.tssi.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) From: JC Dill Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20010221020930.17749.qmail@celery.tssi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 06:09 PM 2/20/01, nolan@celery.tssi.com wrote: >And freedom of the press covers those who OWN the press, not those who >write for it, or to it. > >In both cases, I think the list manager is entitled if not OBLIGATED to >set the groundrules and enforce them. The rules for posts on the list, absolutely. But I don't think I have the right to make rules about how my list subscribers must act when they send emails privately, not through my list. In fact, I think they might have some cause of action against me if my list had commercial value and I kick them off for their behavior off the list, claiming that I'm infringing on their rights to free speech. (Similar argument to why private clubs that were restricted to whites only, or men only, have been forced to open up their doors to those who were formerly prohibited, even though they are *private* clubs, because of the business activities that take place within.) IANAL, so I could be completely wrong. But I sure wouldn't want to be the test case to find out. jc From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 23:44:53 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA11412; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:10:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A65717EAF for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1L74Hi28956; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:04:17 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:09:29 -0800 Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. From: Chuq Von Rospach To: murr rhame , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/20/01 8:54 PM, "murr rhame" wrote: > I'd have to know what you meant by "abuse" in this case Chuq. I don't have a hard guideline. It depends on the people and the situation. Mostly, it comes down to whether there's someone involved who (a) doesn't want to be, and (b) isn't able to take care of themselves in the situation. If you have two idiots pummelling each other, I may well not intervene, but if there's one person bullying someone who can't protect themselves, I will. > I'm more protective of newbies and others who > aren't well seasoned. Yup. That's a big one. > If memory serves, you and I > have swapped a few fairly spirited emails both private and > public. As far as I know, neither of us got the list admin > involved. True. But -- we both know the other party can take care of themselves. If you have two heavyweights in the ring, you don't step in if one gets bloodied. But when they haul a spectator out of the crowd, you better. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Love is the process of my leading you gently back to yourself. - Saint Exupery From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 20 23:58:31 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA11570; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:29:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0CDA17EAF for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:28:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1L7N4i29240; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:23:04 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:28:17 -0800 Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. From: Chuq Von Rospach To: J C Lawrence Cc: SRE , Peter Losher , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <21318.982733049@kanga.nu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/20/01 9:24 PM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: > Tracing of adjective > patterns (the most effective way I've found to trace culture shift > sources) points to one of the more intellectually > dismissive/patronising members who posts frequently, is religiously > on-topic, never attacks members, and in all public manners fits > within every rule one could think of. Good luck. You'll need it > Yet, he is sabotauging the very community basis that found the list > and its value without also providing himself as a target for > moderation or removal. Yup. You can't remotely call it a troll, but the end result is the same. It drives out people who differ from him, and list diversity suffers horribly. A bad situation. Unfortunately, you're headed into the purely subjective area of the tone of the list, and it's a minefield. > direct competition with one of his commercial ventures and has > caused him to have to re-write his business plans to work around > the non-profit and attempt to salvage his sunk costs. Oh, ouch. So on top of everything else, there are issues of conflict of interest (going in both directions) and the ability to claim you're trying to harrass him. > I find myself somewhat in a quandry as to how to approach this. > Approaching him will not help (done before, behaviour worsened, he > has little to lose and a lot to gain). That's the first try. And yes, most times it doesn't help. > The list is hand moderated. The temptation is to silently boot him. Bad move. It plays into his hand. Whatever you do, if you do anything, do it openly, and with as much public consensus and feedback as you can. > Ideas on approaching this? Yeah, all bad. I'd like to say I've had thiings that worked, but in my experience, I've never really handled these situations in a way I thought worked. These days, I try to isolate these things as early as possible, and shoot to kill early while the problem is small. Once the problem is big and people get involved in taking sides, all hell usually breaks loose. Unfortunately, when it's small, you usually don't notice it. I've had lists die over stuff like this. I dunno -- all paths lead to schism, or worse. Maybe schism isn't bad -- at some point, you say "this is the way it's done here, if you don't cooperate, we'll have to ask you to leave". But if he does, he's likely to take his faction with him, and you end up with two lists that don't like each other. And given your organizational situation -- that's tough politically. You'd need, IMHO, everyone on your side to understand what's going on and back you in doing it, since you don't want someone to wuss out in the management chain when the heat hits. They might do it anyway, agreements or no. Ugh. Have you considered resigning and having them giv ethe list to soemone else? -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. How about never? Is never good for you? From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 21 00:11:11 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA11691; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:42:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C14717EAF for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:42:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1L7aqi29425; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:36:52 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:42:05 -0800 Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. From: Chuq Von Rospach To: murr rhame , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/20/01 10:44 PM, "murr rhame" wrote: > I don't know who wrote the original "slippery slope" comment. > You could both be right. The list admin has every right to > define and enforce rules of acceptable behavior for their list. I'm going to speak out of both sides of my mouth here (kids, don't try this at home, this man is a professional) Murr is completely right. If you're paying the bills, in practice or by appointment, it's your toy. If they don't like it, leave. Even if you're running a yahoogroup and all you're investing is sweat equity, it's still your investment. It is not a democracy. It is, hopefully, a benign dictatorship -- the way I put it is this: I'm *always* listening, but votes only come when I ask for them, and I can jigger the results if I want to. On the other, other hand, to disagree with myself, it's important to remember that you're running the list for the users, so what they want is crucial if you want to serve them. So while you can do what you want on a list, what you want is, in most cases, what you see as the list users want, even if you disagree with them and want something else -- within limits. If they want to swap porn, I don't care. Not on my nickel. The trick, to me, is knowing what the LIST wants. Not the two ro three whining, yelling squeaky wheels. Just because someone is loud doesn't remotely mean they're speaking for the consensus. The louder they yell, the less likely they're the consensus view, in fact. So what you need to do is find out what the users want -- talk to them, listen to them, run surveys, dig out the lurkers and get them to talk to you. Be the consensus builder, and manage to that consensus. And then, as certain presidents of the US have said, you have the mandate, and you can tell the squeaky wheels to shut . Lists are not a democracy. They're not "free speech" (the internet is a great bastion of free speech -- but that doesn't imply that *I* have to pay so *you* can bluster. If you want to bluster, spend your own money. There is no requirement that we are forced to listen against our wills, or pay the bill of things we don't support.). One of the great liberating things for me a few years back was realizing that a mail list that monopolizes a topic is a BAD THING. I encourage people who don't like how I run lists or don't like the audiences I attract to go start their own lists. I list them in my directories with equal billing. I look for ways to cross-fertilize if they're willing to cooperate. That's great stuff, because it means I can run the list for the kind of audience I want, and not have to worry about keeping everyone happy. Which if you try to do, you'll fail at. I don't want to be the only dog, or even top dog. I have a vision of what my lists should be, I manage to that. I adjust the vision based on what the users tell me, so we have a feedback cycle to keep things on track. And if what you want isn't what I want to give -- the internet is a big place, and I'll help you carve a niche, but I won't hand my niche to you already built and furnished. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 21 00:26:05 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA11373; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:06:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from glatton.cnchost.com (unknown [207.155.248.47]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA6D917EAF for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:06:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (dsl-64-195-231-125.telocity.com [64.195.231.125]) by glatton.cnchost.com id CAA19725; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 02:06:09 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010220225414.024c7c60@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:06:35 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach , List-Managers From: JC Dill Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010220110347.01f02aa0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 05:22 PM 2/20/01, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >On 2/20/01 11:18 AM, "JC Dill" wrote: > >> But after the poster posts and the replier replies/attacks in private email >> (following netiquette), what happens next? >> >> The simple solution is for the poster to use the "delete" function and >> ignore the unpleasant reply and not reply to the attacker. > >I have real problems with this. I agree with you completely if it's >criticism. If oyu post an opinion on something, don't get upset if someone >disagrees, even strongly. > >But abuse? We're not talking about the virtual equivalent of someone coming >up and yelling "you suck" in your face. We're talking about the virtual >equivalent of someone coming up and punching you in the face. They should >just take that stoically -- because why? Nobody would in real life. Why is >the virtual world different? It's not up to *me* to police their private email interactions!. The recepient can take it up with the ISP of the person who sent it, or delete it. >> I belive people need to develop their own spines, I'm not >> running a list to be their surrogate mom. > >So you don't see yourself as responsible for the actions done while people >are in "your house" and under your care? Posts sent *to the list* fall under my care, but posts sent privately do not. If two people (not friends, but say neighbors who came to a house warming) come to my house to a party, and one person says something at the party that another person objects to, but the other person is quiet about it until after they leave my party, how is it *my* responsibility to settle the subsequent dispute that happens outside my control? Or to take sides on who I invite to the next neighborhood gathering? As long as they don't disrupt the party, I don't believe I should take it upon myself to settle their outside dispute just because it started with something that was said at my party. When they disrupt the party, then I can get involved. Otherwise it's a private matter. How is a mailing list different? >> Stifling "free speech" in the name of having >> a "nice" list is heading down a slippery slope. Personally I wouldn't do it. > >But -- someone will. If you don't keep the trolls from abusing your other >users, the other users will shut up, and all you end up with is the trolls. >They drive everyone else off, and you end up with someone ELSE defining what >is and isn't acceptable on your list isntead of you. We aren't talking about posts on the list. We are talking about private email that is in response to a post on the list. There has been exactly one private email incident that I've been involved in resolving in the years I've been running lists. When I questioned both the people involved, the troll attacked me. Well, that's easy. You don't attack the list administrator and expect to remain on the list! Do you have trolls that behave otherwise? I suppose they might exist, theoretically, but my personal experience has been that they do stupid things like mouth off to the list administrator who can then take action against THAT response. You want to be on my lists, you have to respect my rights and role as list owner. Duh. jc From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 21 00:41:02 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA12365; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:25:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0276917EAF for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:25:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14VUar-0007WO-00; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:25:49 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: SRE , Peter Losher , List-Managers Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:28:17 PST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:25:49 -0800 Message-ID: <28914.982743949@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:28:17 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/20/01 9:24 PM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: > Good luck. You'll need it Aye, if I were to try and think of a situation that would be messier, I'd have some trouble. >> Yet, he is sabotauging the very community basis that found the >> list and its value without also providing himself as a target for >> moderation or removal. > Yup. You can't remotely call it a troll, but the end result is the > same. It drives out people who differ from him, and list diversity > suffers horribly. Precisely. > A bad situation. Unfortunately, you're headed into the purely > subjective area of the tone of the list, and it's a minefield. Quite. Fortunately I have a reputation of having handled this sort of thing well before, and the list itself is not prone to taking sides (ie there are no camps or personality cults). That makes it at least a little easier. >> direct competition with one of his commercial ventures and has >> caused him to have to re-write his business plans to work around >> the non-profit and attempt to salvage his sunk costs. > Oh, ouch. So on top of everything else, there are issues of > conflict of interest (going in both directions) and the ability to > claim you're trying to harrass him. Bingo. Happily the fact that the technical association is a non-profit (which is what scuppered his business plans) and that he got rather a back eye (which he seems rather unaware of) in attempting to co-opt the association on a commercial footing in the early days puts me in a slightly better position, but he has no shortage of ammunition here. He also has an extant history of complaints against my moderation decisions (I canned posts he thought should be let thru, I didn't let him retort when a thread had wandered off topic and one of his areas was hit, etc). His public positioning of me is as a benevolent egocentric dictator (surprise!) -- which is of course true, but prejudicial. >> I find myself somewhat in a quandry as to how to approach this. >> Approaching him will not help (done before, behaviour worsened, >> he has little to lose and a lot to gain). > That's the first try. And yes, most times it doesn't help. Yup. Been there, but felt I should say so upfront rather than handle all the, "Why don't you ask him nicely?" responses. >> The list is hand moderated. The temptation is to silently boot >> him. > Bad move. It plays into his hand. True. > Whatever you do, if you do anything, do it openly, and with as > much public consensus and feedback as you can. Historically the list has not been a concensus forum, at least not stylistically. Its been run much on the line of the benevolent and rather doting grand-fatherly tyrant (I find that form works well for technical fields). >> Ideas on approaching this? > Yeah, all bad. I'd like to say I've had thiings that worked, but > in my experience, I've never really handled these situations in a > way I thought worked. These days, I try to isolate these things as > early as possible, and shoot to kill early while the problem is > small. Once the problem is big and people get involved in taking > sides, all hell usually breaks loose. Unfortunately, when it's > small, you usually don't notice it. I've had lists die over stuff > like this. I'm currently considering the following approach: I make a post to the list as list owner saying something to the effect of: The number and rate of posts which I've had to moderate recently has increased by an order of magnitude over the last month or so (true BTW). I'm also concerned that the respectfully friendly atmosphere of the list has been degrading. This sort of thing can silently kill a list as people shut up, leave, or simply become less involved and interested. I'd rather that didn't happen. I'm still investigating this situation and graphing adjectival patterns (I've found tracking back patterns of use of adjectives can indicate causes of cultural shifts). The idea being to give some idea that there will be changes in the moderation patter without defining what those changes will be. > I dunno -- all paths lead to schism, or worse. Maybe schism isn't > bad -- at some point, you say "this is the way it's done here, if > you don't cooperate, we'll have to ask you to leave". But if he > does, he's likely to take his faction with him, and you end up > with two lists that don't like each other. I'm confident that I hold a strong enough position to prevent that. He's not in a good enough position to split and carry any significant percentage with him. This of course doesn't mean that the heat and noise will do either of us any good. > And given your organizational situation -- that's tough > politically. You'd need, IMHO, everyone on your side to understand > what's going on and back you in doing it, since you don't want > someone to wuss out in the management chain when the heat > hits. They might do it anyway, agreements or no. You got it. > Ugh. Have you considered resigning and having them giv ethe list > to soemone else? It sure has been tempting. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 21 00:56:05 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA12591; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:44:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E64817EB2 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:44:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14VUtC-0006mj-00; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:44:46 -0800 To: SRE Cc: List-Managers Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. In-Reply-To: Message from SRE of "Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:10:05 PST." <5.0.0.25.0.20010220220329.00b28790@pop.climber.org> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010220220329.00b28790@pop.climber.org> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:44:46 -0800 Message-ID: <26082.982745086@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:10:05 -0800 SRE wrote: > At 09:24 PM 2/20/01, J C Lawrence wrote: >> Yet, he is sabotauging the very community basis that found the >> list and its value without also providing himself as a target for >> moderation or removal. > If he can ruin the list without breaking any rules, you need to > announce NEW RULES! The problem is that what he is doing is entirely attitudinal. His posts are ontopic. They are not inherently noisy. They simply convey an attidude which is dismissive, belittling, caustic, etc. I'm not about to make a rule that, "Only happy posts from happy people will be accepted." > Try writing down how often and what he posts, see if you can find > a pattern, and see if it's REALLY different from what others do > (frequency, changing the subject, whatever). Yup. I've done this analysis. He's a thread killer. He's also an indirect noise injector (reponses to his posts tend to be noisy, and threads tend to go noisy after he significantly participates). Mostly I did an adjectival analysis which located that noisy threads tended to contain posts from others which repeated the edjective sequences he used in his participation in those threads, and that those same patterns tended to recur in other threads shortly before they died. If you're wondering, the list runs 50+ posts a day, so, even tho I've only looked at the last couple months, I've got ~4,500 posts to disect to get a fairly reasonable pattern built. > When a poster generates more complaints than compliments, I tell > them (ON LIST, IN PUBLIC) that their attitude is burning up my > time dealing with complaints. If others come to their defense, I > have to leave them alone. If not, they get booted. I have no complaints. Outside of this individual and one other (with related commercial concerns) my average incidence of complaints in any degree is under one per month (actually my average rate of posts sent to the list owner about the list is well under one per month, so the complaint rate is *really* low). > I even set up a "list-issues" list so the quiet people don't have > to listen to the yelling about who can say what. I filter the main > lists as needed to keep the issues discussion in "the back room", > and I invite people to contact me off-list if they don't want to > say something for or against the attacker on-list. I've thought about such a split before but have always decided against it. The single promise the list makes and maintains, and has maintained for several years now, is that it will deliver signal. We go meta periodically (few times a year), and there's a parallel low-traffic meta list to sock up a bit of the side noise, but it hasn't received much interest. > Sometimes I find out that no one but me is bothered, and I back > off. Most of the time I hear "hurrah for the good guys - nail the > bastard" and then it doesn't matter if he broke the list rules: > The mob rules! Hehn. This would run rather counter to the culture I've established on the list which is somewhat akin to the Hollywood version of the English Gentlemen's Club with the wing backed armchairs, the genteel sensibility, and the overt respect tones. As this is primarily a technical forum I've taken this culture approach to try and keep the attention off the people involved, off the personalities, and stuck rigorously on the subject. Largely, its worked -- but it means there are no mobs there. There's just a lot of, "Jolly good old boy!" and small gesticulating groups busy figuring out some new angle or twist. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 21 01:26:02 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA12704; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.svr.pol.co.uk (mail1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2829D17EAF for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:56:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [195.92.198.123] (helo=mail17.svr.pol.co.uk) by mail1.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14VUsY-0000UZ-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:44:06 +0000 Received: from modem-112.aman.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.103.112] helo=refractory.homenet.firedrake.org) by mail17.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14VV48-0007jR-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:56:04 +0000 Received: from roger by refractory.homenet.firedrake.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14VV46-0004UH-00 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:56:02 +0000 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:56:02 +0000 From: Roger Burton West To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MLM comparisons and features Message-ID: <20010221085602.A17241@firedrake.org> Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com References: <026001c09b23$cfadac00$77cb87d4@n3.uk.knowtion.net> <001f01c09b83$343232e0$46962640@noderunner.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <001f01c09b83$343232e0$46962640@noderunner.net>; from sparks@noderunner.net on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:22:12PM -0800 X-Phase-Of-Moon: The Moon is Waning Crescent (3% of Full) X-Discordian-Date: Boomtime, Chaos 52 3167 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:22:12PM -0800, Rachel Blackman wrote: >Hrm. This is from memory and trying to be unbiased. Please, anyone on the >list, don't take misinformation personally, just post a correction. :) You seem to have omitted: SMARTLIST Written in procmail, shell and a bit of C; GPL. Basic setup is fairly light on features, though it does all the basics; lots of custom recipes available for the usual extras. No official web interface AFAIK, though there's a semi-official one available. Primarily for people who understand the concept of email. Charlie Summers is the person here who knows most about it, I suspect. Roger From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 21 02:11:09 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id CAA14652; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 02:08:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from listes.cru.fr (listes.cru.fr [195.220.94.165]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F5E17EAF for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 02:07:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from cru.fr (solex.cru.fr [195.220.94.70]) by listes.cru.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.2) with ESMTP id LAA07100 ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:08:04 +0100 Message-ID: <3A939383.147F760A@cru.fr> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:08:03 +0100 From: Olivier Salaun Organization: CRU X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-3 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: Peter Galbavy Subject: Re: FAQ: MLM comparisons and features References: <200102210509.VAA10221@honor.greatcircle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, Peter Galbavy wrote : > If it helps, the requirement is more one of code study at this stage, since > we are going to implement a mailing list management system that sits on top > of a (out) provisioning database. If any of the existing packages are > flexible enough to do this with a small amount of integration work, then > great; Sympa relies on a RDMS (MySQL / PostgreSQL / Oracle / Sybase) it uses for its internal usage. But it can also have MLs with subscribers extracted from external databases (any DBMS or LDAP). A list may have multiple data sources. Here is a sample list config : ## subscribers' emails are dynamically extracted from external ## data sources user_data_source include ## First source : an Oracle database include_sql_query db_type oracle host sqlserv.admin.univ-x.fr user banalise passwd mysecret db_name scolarship sql_query SELECT DISTINCT email FROM student ## Second source : an LDAP directory include_ldap_query host ldap.cru.fr suffix dc=cru, dc=fr filter (&(cn=aumont) (c=fr)) attrs mail select first You should be able to set your provisioning database as an "include" data source. Rachel Blackman wrote : > SYMPA > Written in Perl, Sympa's main strength is that it's amazingly easy to > localize into other languages. Sympa is easy to translate indeed (it has just been translated to chinese and polish). But as far as we know it has many other features other MLMs don't have : - S/MIME signature recognition and message encryption - Complete web interface with unique authentication (not per list) - "Scenari" are a scripting language that allows you to extend the behavior of commands (without patching the code) - Web document repository (per list) -- Olivier Salaün Comité Réseaux des Universités Sympa http://www.sympa.org/ From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 21 08:39:52 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA20352; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:25:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from goliath.cnchost.com (unknown [207.155.252.47]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1268C17EAF for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (dsl-64-195-231-125.telocity.com [64.195.231.125]) by goliath.cnchost.com id LAA16987; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:25:05 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010221081842.00a82c50@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:24:50 -0800 To: J C Lawrence From: JC Dill Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. Cc: List-Managers In-Reply-To: <26082.982745086@kanga.nu> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010220220329.00b28790@pop.climber.org> <5.0.0.25.0.20010220220329.00b28790@pop.climber.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 12:44 AM 2/21/01, J C Lawrence wrote: >On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:10:05 -0800 >SRE wrote: > >> At 09:24 PM 2/20/01, J C Lawrence wrote: >>> Yet, he is sabotauging the very community basis that found the >>> list and its value without also providing himself as a target for >>> moderation or removal. > >> If he can ruin the list without breaking any rules, you need to >> announce NEW RULES! > >The problem is that what he is doing is entirely attitudinal. His >posts are ontopic. They are not inherently noisy. They simply >convey an attidude which is dismissive, belittling, caustic, etc. I would try two things here. One is to enlist the help of other respected regulars and ask them to make posts that are not dismissive, belittling, caustic, etc. Try to sweeten up the list by having other people post nicely. The other approach is to privately email this guy and say "I've been asked by several new subscribers if this list is always this unwelcoming. I have to say, I've seen several subscribers get unfriendly recently, using terms that are dismissive, belittling, caustic, etc. I'm privately emailing some of our most respected long standing subscribers (this includes you), and asking for their help and in making this list a more friendly place by setting an example of friendliness that others can follow. Your help and cooperation is greatly appreciated." There are two parts to this. One is "don't make him feel singled out". The other is to acknowledge his long standing on the list and his status as a respected regular, and tell him he can "help" by being one of the people you have come to, asking him to lead the way. This appeals to his ego, his need to be important. Good Luck! jc From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 21 09:09:55 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA20638; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3C91817EB2 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:56:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa03935 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 8:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 21 Feb 01 07:13:52 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: <46wm6F1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 06:38:02 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Agree with Chuq 100% on this one. I found that where anyone is on the scale from anarchist to administrator depends on their commitment to the group and function. In my experience, the first-amendment libertarians are invariably new and passing; their focus is on their own delivery and never on group dynamics. And the listowners who support total disregard for decorum and common sense have no direct interest in the nature of the forum, only its digital functions. If I'm a wirehead admin of a large number of electronic gatherings on a variety of topics, if I am primarily or solely interested in the way the hardward and software function, then I could care less about the petty disturbances on any one of my lists. Deal with it, I would say, I have four thousand megs a second running through my station, I'm supposed to take up the cause of a victim of offstage bickering in Knitting-L? Whereas, if my life hobby has been knitting, and I formed, formatted, formulated a group of likeminded souls over the years, and we each have great pride in our bunch, I will very definitely care if one of the contributing members is abused offlist by some dud who offers nothing else to us. You host a friday-night reception for your daughter's coming wedding. One of the guests is of the habit of sneaking out into the street and letting the air out of the tires of the autos belonging to the groom's mother, the cousin of the bride. He's ticked off because the bride didn't pick him. If you are the mother of the bride, you will react to this vandalism quite a bit differently than might the owner of the hall who only rents the space. The problem with hosting any party which allows the appetites of the male juvenille to reign supreme, unmolested, is, your party will begin to resemble his bedroom. He doesn't care. You should. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "Readers meeting Writers as the Sea the Very Sky" Send: subscribe nerdnosh To: majordomo@story.nerdnosh.org From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 21 09:29:19 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA20639; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:57:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A932017EB4 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:56:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa03941 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 8:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 21 Feb 01 07:38:47 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. (fwd) From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 07:25:46 PST In-Reply-To: <20010221020930.17749.qmail@celery.tssi.com> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk nolan@celery.tssi.com writes: > Freedom of speech was never intended to cover speech that someone ELSE is > paying for. Ronald Reagan once shouted down a heckler by saying "I'm > paying for this microphone!" No, no, no. We must remember first off that Reagan never did anything. He was a mindless body-double for someone real. That comeback was delivered during the incessant quibbling that goes on when the midgets are trying to cast long shadows during the primaries. He had it scripted for him, of course. He was about as extemporaneous as Mt Rushmore. One of his handlers thought the line might work as a trigger for the six o'clock news. It took off - even though it was meaningless. Reagan never paid for anything, and he had no more claim on the equipment on the set than any other candidate. Boy, you talk about the Clintons taking goods. The Reagans had a house bought by their group of wealthy handlers after he left office. He has been, in fact, handled like a puppet since his studio days. The notion he should be held up as someone who has paid for his right to speak is laughable. I have a real world problem here I'd like some opinions on. This is not hypothetical, it came down just like this. We kicked off annual physical conventions a few years back. During the very first one, the resident rogue went to bed with a willing accomplice who left behind a hubby and two toddlers. The blowup happened when a close friend of the errant mother and family back in the midwest began sending private hate E-mail to the rogue. He complained to me. On balance, in this case, the abuser was much more valuable to the list than the abused. So what do you do? I suspect the advice might be a bit more restrained in this case because it's actual history and I can tell you what the consequences were. Anybody wanta play? tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "Readers meeting Writers as the Sea the Very Sky" Send: subscribe nerdnosh To: majordomo@story.nerdnosh.org From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 21 11:26:51 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA22241; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:17:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.rev.net (mail.rev.net [206.67.68.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C78A17EAF for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:17:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from admin3 (admin3.rev.net [12.26.100.205]) by mail.rev.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f1LJHet30864 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:17:40 -0500 Message-Id: <200102211917.f1LJHet30864@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: List-Managers Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:17:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. Reply-To: bernie@fantasyfarm.com In-reply-to: References: <1099.208.185.239.243.982648714.squirrel@luftpost.plosh.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 20 Feb 01, at 17:08, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/19/01 9:58 PM, "Peter Losher" wrote: > > > I have recently been dealing with an issue that I hope I can get some advice > > on here. On one of the lists that I maintain & administer, I have had > > individuals reportedly attack individuals via personal email about things that > > they have posted on this particular list. ... [...] > I've always been a proponent of the "if it happens because of my mail list, > I have a responsibility to it", so my rules have always made it clear that > abuse by private mail isn't tolerated. This has gotten me some flack from > other admins at times, who prefer a more hands-off approach, and from users > who want to tell me it's none of my business -- but when situations are > unclear online, I look for real-world comparisons to judge with. > > In this case, since I like the sports-bar analogy (and I'm the bartender), > it's similar to the case where two folks get into a argument in the bar, and > then one leaves and waits for the other in the parking lot, and then jumps > him. Virtually, you're still on bar property, but not IN the bar, and the > situation was caused while they were in the bar. One thing that's nice about analogies is that they're like standards - - there are so many to choose among. In this case, I rather disagree with your choice of analogy because of the notion of "Virtual bar property". I can find no analogy between a random user doing something on their own, on their own computer, in the comfort of their home [or wherever], hours or days after the original submission to a list and a continuation of a fight in a bar parking lot. Where, exactly, are the analogy boundaries of the 'virtual parking lot' and to what extent does an analogy argument have to start "in the bar" for the problem to be on our watch? For my money/time, it seems that the problems involved in getting in the middle of these kinds of spats FAR outweigh just telling the offended party to put the offender in their email-killfile and be done with it. [among the problems: what if the 'offender' isn't apparently on your list of subscribers? do you now volunteer your time to track down who the miscreant actually is to figure out the right 'match'? Do you need to keep a perpetual "banned from resubscribing" list [lest the miscreant just resubscribe to the list?] Do you have to play detective and investigate to verify their claim of attack and verify its source, (or could someone use this to get folks they don't like kicked from the list?) /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 21 12:43:54 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA23070; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:32:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8266917EAF for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1LKQJi19612; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:26:19 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:31:30 -0800 Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. From: Chuq Von Rospach To: , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200102211917.f1LJHet30864@mail.rev.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/21/01 11:17 AM, "Bernie Cosell" wrote: > One thing that's nice about analogies is that they're like standards - > - there are so many to choose among. To me, that's true, but secondary. Analogies are nice because they not only illuminate a situation in where they work, but also where they don't. > Where, exactly, are the analogy boundaries of the 'virtual parking > lot' and to what extent does an analogy argument have to start "in > the bar" for the problem to be on our watch? For you -- I don't know, and don't pretend to. These are all subjective judgments. It depends on the admin, the list, the people involved, the subject matter, the organization running it. It's not programming C++: there are no arguably or provably right answers. I don't pretend to have answers -- I have perspective from my experience doing this stuff, and I know what works for me. I put my perspective out, because if it works for you, that's great. If it doesn't, maybe it'll make you think of something that'll work for you, and that's great. And maybe you'll say something that'll make me think of something that works for me, and that's great. I don't know how big your parking lot is, or how many security cameras you ought to put on your parking lot. I don't think you should do background checks on all your users, and I don't think that if two of our users get mugged walking home that it's your problem. Id o think that if one of your users hides in your parking lot and beats up another user out there because of an argument that started inside this virtual bar, there is responsibility, if only to clean the guy up and help them get home safely -- and that only if they wander back in the bar and ask for help. But how you build, define and manage your virtual space, I can't say. I can offer perspective, advice and suggestions, but few hard answers. Because few exist, and it all depends on how my thoughts mesh with your style. That's what makes doing this so much fun, and so challenging. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. I tried to get a life once, but they were out of stock. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 21 13:44:27 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA23595; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E1F17EAF for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:21:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) id f1LLLxm59199 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:21:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:21:59 -0500 From: Tim Pierce To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MLM comparisons and features Message-ID: <20010221162159.S81623@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <026001c09b23$cfadac00$77cb87d4@n3.uk.knowtion.net> <001f01c09b83$343232e0$46962640@noderunner.net> <20010221085602.A17241@firedrake.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010221085602.A17241@firedrake.org>; from roger@firedrake.org on Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 08:56:02AM +0000 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 08:56:02AM +0000, Roger Burton West wrote: > > SMARTLIST > Written in procmail, shell and a bit of C; GPL. Basic setup is fairly > light on features, though it does all the basics; lots of custom recipes > available for the usual extras. No official web interface AFAIK, though > there's a semi-official one available. Primarily for people who understand > the concept of email. Charlie Summers is the person here who knows most > about it, I suspect. We're using SmartList to run 20,000+ lists here. I've done a fair amount of hacking on the procmail recipes. I know something about it, I just don't post often. :-) -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb.com lead system admonsterator and Chief Hacking Officer From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 21 21:16:48 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA28926; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:55:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D80BC17E8E for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:55:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14Vnn0-0006fY-00; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:55:38 -0800 To: nolan@celery.tssi.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message from nolan@celery.tssi.com of "Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:48:56 CST." <20010221064856.20895.qmail@celery.tssi.com> References: <20010221064856.20895.qmail@celery.tssi.com> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:55:38 -0800 Message-ID: <25638.982817738@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:48:56 -0600 (CST) nolan wrote: >> From: J C Lawrence >> >> I find myself retroactively interested in this thread. The tone >> of one of my lists has begun to suffer becoming somewhat caustic >> and aggressive, far from the professional slightly chummy yet >> formal attitude it had (and I took so long building). > Based on your description, it sounds like both you and the other > person both have some degree of conflict of interest with the list > itself. Actually, no. I'm the founder of the list, having started it ~15 years ago. I'm also the founder of the non-profit which is, fairly simply an extention of an annual dinner for list members that I started (very popular) which then grew out of that into a call for something more structured/pusposive. The non-profit serves almost exactly the same purpose as the list, just canted towards research and academia rather than education/discussion. > Is your community commenting on (and objecting to) the change in > tone or is it just you? Yes, the list is commenting, in private (remember it is a hand moderated and edited list). > And if the latter, are you sure it isn't because of your other > venture? Yes. > No offense intended, but without more details or lurking on the > list, it might be difficult to offer a more precise evaluation. Surely. > On one of my own lists, we have had an evolution over time. Some > of our better (and more technically competent) posters have gotten > tired of having their expertise questioned and moved on to other > venues for the subject. And in many cases, it wasn't intended to > be criticism, it was just a free-flowing discussion in which > assumptions were not always the same. To use a simplified > example, if every time a poster writes 'The car is blue', someone > questions whether their definition of blue is the same as someone > else's, after a while the first poster gets tired of it. Yup. I'm aware of that evolutionary process (the non-profit is intended as a partial release value for such). -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 21 22:13:37 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA29649; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:02:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C18617E8E for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:02:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1M5uUi09494; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:56:30 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:01:44 -0800 Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Tim Bowden , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/21/01 7:25 AM, "Tim Bowden" wrote: > We kicked off annual physical conventions a few years back. During the > very first one, the resident rogue went to bed with a willing accomplice > who left behind a hubby and two toddlers. The blowup happened when a > close friend of the errant mother and family back in the midwest began > sending private hate E-mail to the rogue. > > He complained to me. On balance, in this case, the abuser was much more > valuable to the list than the abused. > > So what do you do? I'll try. Based on what you say here, assuming you haven't missed a wrinkle or three -- even though the list and the convention are related, I just don't see this as a list issue. So I'd tell them to settle it privately, keep it off the list, and the person who leaks it onto the list gets put on moderated status or kicked off. This stuff happens. You aren't their mother or babysitter, except on the list. Unless they were publically setting this up ON the list, my primary focus would be to (a) keep it off the list, and (b) not get in the crosshairs. I'd try really hard to stay out of this. I'm not sure the list is really relevant to the issue, any more than a professor is responsible if two students in the same class head off to a hotel afterwards. But if they start making out in the classroom, or if someone shows up mid-lecture and starts screaming at someone else, my primary interest is in quiet so I can finish the lecture, and privately worring that one of them has a gun or knife... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Some days you're the dog, some days you're the hydrant. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 22 05:56:09 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA07135; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 05:39:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amys-answers.com (unknown [206.53.239.113]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9795B17E8E for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 05:38:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from famroom [206.53.239.126] by mail.amys-answers.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A5ADFC7F0076; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:35:41 -0500 From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: Tim Bowden , list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:38:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com Message-ID: <3A94D01F.22542.52576CA@localhost> In-reply-to: <46wm6F1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 21 Feb 2001, at 6:38, Tim Bowden wrote: > In my experience, the first-amendment libertarians > are invariably new and passing; their focus is on their own delivery > and never on group dynamics. > Whereas, if my life hobby has been knitting, and I formed, formatted, > formulated a group of likeminded souls over the years, and we each have > great pride in our bunch, I will very definitely care if one of the > contributing members is abused offlist by some dud who offers nothing else > to us. Are you writing about me? I'm a card carrying Libertarian AND I just happen to own the largest, longest running MACHINE Knitting list on the internet, born out of my hobby. Card carrying Libertarians know the difference between 1st amendment rights and the kind of free speech you refer to. The kind you refer to is "license". That is more an excess of "democracy" than a true Libertarian stance. I don't want to get into that too much other than to say that a lot of misinformation gets passed around about libertarian thought. I am very protective of my brood, but I have a real problem with members who flame off list. Problem is no one will tell me who they are. So I can't deal with it. But it makes people afraid to post to my list, and that pisses me off. My list is a mixture of well known people in the industry, those who want to be well known in the industry (those are the worst), and people who just want to learn. We're talking about an average age of 60, basically computer illiterate woman. There are guys, both straight and gay, and a few younger people (in their 30's and 40's) who are there, but the vast majority are women who have a LOT of time on their hands. It breeds mischief. I really enjoyed your post. Amy Listhost: Home of the original Machine Knitting lists http://www.listhost.com/lists/index.html From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 22 07:39:59 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA08254; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:31:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F08717EB5 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1MFOmi26117; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:24:48 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:30:03 -0800 Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. From: Chuq Von Rospach To: , Tim Bowden , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3A94D01F.22542.52576CA@localhost> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/22/01 5:38 AM, "Amy Stinson" wrote: > I am very protective of my brood, but I have a real problem with > members who flame off list. Problem is no one will tell me who they > are. So I can't deal with it. I KNOW I'm going to get flamed for this one, but... Have you considered going in undercover? Create a false identity somewhere, sign up to your own list, and start contributing to the list in a way that will attract the idiot. When he shows up, use the pepper spray. It's a useful technique. Some folks will consider it entrapment, some folks just plain old don't like it -- but beyond helping to catch these dweebs who throw bricks through windows at night, it's a great technique to monitor for spam harvesters and try to track them down. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. USENET is a lot better after two or three eggnogs. We shouldn't allow anyone on the net without a bottle of brandy. (chuq von rospach, 1992) From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 22 07:54:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA08291; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F31F17E8E for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:35:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa03187 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 7:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 22 Feb 01 07:18:54 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 01 06:52:48 PST In-Reply-To: <3A94D01F.22542.52576CA@localhost> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Amy Stinson writes: > Are you writing about me? Uh-oh. Let me hasten to assure any and all that I have absolutely no reference to Amy at all. Anything I write about here is personal experience. In fact, trying to go back and search out where the knitting example originated, it was a very early meeting of NerdNosh, when we were a local organization, and one of our members belonged to a knitting list (possibly Amy's!) which was my very first experience of a successful operation, for they had TWO THOUSAND members, an ungodly number way back when. > I'm a card carrying Libertarian AND I just happen to own the largest, > longest running MACHINE Knitting list on the internet, born out of my > hobby. Amazing coincidence. But, like I say, my samples are taken from my own pot, even though they are eclectic - I don't think I've ever met a knitting Libertarian! And I agreed after a conversation maybe fifteen years ago with one of the local charter members of that faith that I should perhaps use the small `l' to describe the broily boys who feel put upon because daddy took the T-Bird away. Being from a small town, I find these wires offer coincidence of a degree I never could've imagined. My most amazing was, back in the time when we did fiction as well as non- in NerdNosh, there was a continuing story, and in there I used a phantom mailing list called BIBLIO, which involved an examination of ancient texts, in keeping with the story line. It was only weeks from then until the time I read in NEW LISTS about an actual forum formed for just that purpose with precisely that name. I could never discover any connection between anyone on NerdNosh and the origin of BIBLIO. Remains a mystery to this day. And I'll bet the owner of BIBLIO is reading this... tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "Readers meeting Writers as the Sea the Very Sky" Send: subscribe nerdnosh To: majordomo@story.nerdnosh.org From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 22 12:39:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA11028; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:24:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from oberon.dnai.com (oberon.dnai.com [207.181.194.97]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567FE17E8E for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:24:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from triton.dnai.com (sendmail@triton.dnai.com [207.181.195.20]) by oberon.dnai.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA39697 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (meh@localhost) by triton.dnai.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17545 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:25:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from meh@dnai.com) X-Authentication-Warning: triton.dnai.com: meh owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:25:00 -0800 (PST) From: Mikael Hansen X-Sender: meh@triton To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MLM comparisons and features Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello. I was wondering how many of these list server applications support blocking messages having a Precedence field in the RFC header. An estimated percentage such as 20 or 80 would be fine. Thanks much. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 22 21:41:42 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA16102; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CDE917E8E for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lev@localhost) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA17194 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:28:48 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:28:48 -0500 (EST) From: Paul K- X-Sender: To: Subject: Subscription probe I got. In-Reply-To: <3A94D01F.22542.52576CA@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Today I rec'd a probe. Which got me to thinking (novice here). I recently told someone I thought bounces did not happen reliably, that accounts could become dormant and messages for a long time be fired toward those accounts -- with no sign that the the messages are being lost. If you see what I mean. Hmm. I reckon the question possibly is: how many free acounts, especially academic, get opened then ignored? -P On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Amy Stinson wrote: > On 21 Feb 2001, at 6:38, Tim Bowden wrote: > > > In my experience, the first-amendment libertarians > > are invariably new and passing; their focus is on their own delivery > > and never on group dynamics. Overstated. "Infrequently say _never_." There are all varieties and species. Varying degrees. No card here altho. > > > Are you writing about me? I'm a card carrying Libertarian AND I just > happen to own the largest, longest running MACHINE Knitting list on > the internet, born out of my hobby. > > Card carrying Libertarians know the difference between 1st amendment > rights and the kind of free speech you refer to. The kind you refer Paul Bloomington, Ind 'Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.' -Iris Murdoch, novelist, Brit teacher/philosophy From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 23 08:12:43 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA24782; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:57:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BCF0117E8E for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa02346 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 7:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 23 Feb 01 06:46:44 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: A List-Manager Issue: Dealing with attacks via personal email. From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: <6Bmq6F1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 01 06:34:28 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > > So what do you do? > > I'll try. Based on what you say here, assuming you haven't missed a wrinkle > or three -- even though the list and the convention are related, I just > don't see this as a list issue. I did concur, at least with the results - but there was an additional factor or two. The one complaining was worth much less to us than the one complained of, so doing nothing about it was an easy call. However, he saw my nonintervention as a lack of support, so he began conspiring against me, the result being he drew off a portion of the list into his own copycat operation, using the exact premise and pronouncements as the original. I simply deleted all twenty three or so of them from our group and away we flew. He did us a real favor. Of course, the ones who would join him were the troublemakers or the neutrals, yet they did take up quite a bit of space. They actually had defined us, for most purposes, for the fledglings. When I booted them, it was like dumping sandbags from a hotair balloon. It was ugly at the time, but we're much better for it as a direct result. Their clone folded, of course. Some of the renegades have floated back from time to time. Incidentally, were you to go through the NerdNosh archives, you would find nary a trace of any trouble at any time, at least as pertains to the community. This is because we early on instituted a meta-list to keep discussion and chat out of the mainstream. I certainly do recommend that step. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "Readers meeting Writers as the Sea the Very Sky" Send: subscribe nerdnosh To: majordomo@story.nerdnosh.org From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 23 14:11:43 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA27943; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.circle.net (smtp.circle.net [209.95.64.26]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE2A717E8E for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from d019.dhcp212-107.cybercable.fr ([212.198.107.19]) by smtp.circle.net with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 14WQAH-000KSH-00 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:54:14 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: sharpword001@pop.sharp-words.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:51:00 +0100 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: David Sharp Subject: Confidentiality of member files - copyright Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi I'm just putting the final touches to a new mailing list for journalists, to be launched in French. I've been writing the bit of the user file where I commit myself to total confidentiality of the member data - to keep it completely confidential and on no account to provide any of it to any third party whatsoever. It occurs to me that as things stand I have no way of knowing whether my US hosting service will respect the same commitment. I've absolutely no reason to believe they would do such a thing - but no guarantee that they wouldn't. I've asked the hosting service to provide me with such a commitment, but I'd be interested in knowing whether there are any kind of accepted ground rules for this kind of situation. I know this is more a legal than a mailing list question, but is there any kind of document or commitment they can provide me which would stand up in a court of law in the unlikely event that it were to become apparent that they were selling my user list to half the planet? NB: I hasten to add that I'm not using a free service, but a Mailman service which is costing me something like $15 per month, in addition to a web hosting deal. I would also be interested in any pointers on the ground rules concerning the copyright of messages exchanged via a public mailing list. It seems to me logical (and appropriate) that it would belong to the sender, except in the case of quoted material, but I'm not a lawyer. Any help or advice appreciated. -- David Sharp, journaliste, France http://www.sharp-words.com/ E-mail From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 23 19:26:32 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA01314; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A4D0117E8E for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 62767 invoked by uid 0); 24 Feb 2001 03:14:59 -0000 Received: from dnvr-dsl-gw9-d114.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO dimensional.com) (63.227.47.114) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 24 Feb 2001 03:14:59 -0000 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:14:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3A97272A.7876424F@dimensional.com> From: "Theodore M. Smith" To: "David Sharp" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Confidentiality of member files References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David Sharp wrote: > Hi > I'm just putting the final touches to a new mailing list for > journalists, to be launched in French. > > I've been writing the bit of the user file where I commit myself to > total confidentiality of the member data - to keep it completely > confidential and on no account to provide any of it to any third > party whatsoever. There are too many questions implied in that to be answered easily or with any degree of confidence. However, one problem in the United States, and probably in many other countries, is that when you communicate to people within their borders, you may become subject to court orders to disclose SOME information. I don't know whether those orders to disclose information could then be enforced within France. I myself have used a court order in my own state of the United States to compel internet service providers in other states to release user information. This was done only where individuals attempted to close a website down by thousands of automated messages containing nothing but two or three profane words. However, I don't know the limitations courts might follow here. I think it's a mistake for anyone to promise ABSOLUTE confidentiality. Ted Smith Denver, Colorado USA From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 24 07:44:18 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA11132; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:35:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from goliath.cnchost.com (unknown [207.155.252.47]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035A417E8E for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:35:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (dsl-64-195-231-125.telocity.com [64.195.231.125]) by goliath.cnchost.com id KAA10056; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:35:20 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010224072637.033e20b0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:34:20 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: JC Dill Subject: Re: Confidentiality of member files In-Reply-To: <3A97272A.7876424F@dimensional.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 07:14 PM 2/23/01, Theodore M. Smith wrote: > >I think it's a mistake for anyone to promise ABSOLUTE confidentiality. One way to provide some limited confidentiality is to not write or keep logs, archives, or backups. If all you have is a list of subscribers, but no logs, archives or backups, the *most* they can get from you *if* they get a court order, is your list of subscribers. This is how the anonymous remailers work. Even still, your ISP will almost certainly have logs and backups, and access to your membership list. It would have to be one hell of an important case for the effort involved to parse out your user data from their "everyone data" to be worth doing. If you really don't want this data to ever be given out, get a colo'd server and run the mail list yourself, and don't keep any data on the server (or elsewhere) other than the subscriber list. No logs, no backups, no archives. The ISP logs your server activity in MBs of bits sent and received, but not the actual locations or content of the bits. So your ISP can't violate the server confidentiality unless they get a court order to put a sniffer on your line (ala carnivore). BTW, Havenco would be a good location for such a server if you were really worried about security, about being forced to give up the server or the membership list. jc From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 24 07:59:17 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA11075; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:28:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from one.elistx.com (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D1CE17E8E for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from two.elistx.com (two.elistx.com [209.116.254.209]) by eListX.com (PMDF V6.0-24 #44856) with ESMTP id <0G990060LPPCEO@eListX.com> for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:29:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:31:14 -0500 (EST) From: James M Galvin Subject: Re: Confidentiality of member files - copyright In-reply-to: X-Sender: galvin@two.elistx.com To: David Sharp Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, David Sharp wrote: I've been writing the bit of the user file where I commit myself to total confidentiality of the member data - to keep it completely confidential and on no account to provide any of it to any third party whatsoever. I've asked the hosting service to provide me with such a commitment, but I'd be interested in knowing whether there are any kind of accepted ground rules for this kind of situation. Without a legally binding contract I would think your position is pretty tenuous, although I'm not a lawyer and I'm not pretending to be one. I am not aware of any "accepted ground rules" but I'll tell you what we do, and then give you a worst case scenario to be paranoid about. :-) We commit, in writing, that a customer's list of subscribers and the messages belong to them, and we'll make every reasonable effort to keep it that way. We will also ensure they "get it back" should they decide at some point in the future to change service providers. However, there are three caveats. 1. Your account has to be in good standing. If you're in arrears all bets are off. 2. We will cooperate with any legal request from any court of competent jurisdiction (or whatever the legal phrase is that means if we get a valid subpeona we're going to give it up). 3. We are not responsible for acts of God, etc. This is all well and good and I'm sure that like us most companies who would make such a statement really do plan to stick to it. The scenario to be concerned about though is what happens if and when the company "sells out." If you've signed a legal agreement you're probably in pretty good shape but I would recommend being wary if you're going to make decisions based on a "published privacy policy." The latter can be changed in one click and frequently is when larger companies buy up smaller ones. Jim -- James M. Galvin ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Cure For What (M)ails You: From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 24 08:14:20 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA11196; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:45:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (smtp.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.26]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00EE617E8E for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:45:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from b8q7201 ([64.230.72.168]) by tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP id <20010224154516.XOY25007.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@b8q7201>; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:45:16 -0500 X-Sender: sharonlh@go.listdelivery.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:41:35 -0500 To: David Sharp From: Sharon Tucci Subject: Re: Confidentiality of member files - copyright Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: <20010224154516.XOY25007.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@b8q7201> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:51 PM 2/23/01 +0100, David Sharp wrote: >I've asked the hosting service to provide me with such a commitment, >but I'd be interested in knowing whether there are any kind of >accepted ground rules for this kind of situation. We offer commercial list hosting service. For those using our basis list hosting, we have an online TOS and privacy policy. (It doesn't make sense to deal with a printed agreement for smaller accounts - just the cost of processing would soon outweigh the revenue from the list hosting.) For larger lists with non-standard pricing or those using our advanced solutions, we do have an agreement. There are four basic things we've incorporated into our TOS, privacy policy, hosting agreement and internal procedures: 1/ All staff and contractors must complete an NDA which specifically covers client data files. (among other things) 2/ Staff will ONLY access subscriber lists if/when there is a specific problem that can only be resolved by doing so. (For instance, a troublesome email address needs to be removed.) 3/ We do not divulge the contents of data files or client information to any third parties. (Note: we take it as far as not providing client information at our web site - which has probably hurt us more than helped us :)) 4/ The exception to # 3 - which is spelled out in our hosting agreement - is under subpoena by a court of law. We've heard of almost every imaginable possibility happen with competitors. From employees leaving a company with copies of clients' subscriber lists to the company itself SELLING subscriber lists to one or more competitors of a client because the client's account fell into arrears! When it comes to your own privacy policy, I think it's a good idea to specifically reference any third parties that may be involved and provide a link to their privacy policy or TOS. David, I think you've brought up a great point for those using third party hosting services. Privacy is definitely something that list owners/publishers SHOULD be asking about before they sign on for service with a new vendor, but very few do. I think maybe 1 in 200 people who come to us for a quotation or hosting will even ask. Sharon Tucci President & CEO Sling Shot Media, LLC http://www.ListHost.net - The List Hosting SpeciaLists 1-613-933-5133 From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 25 00:41:50 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA19431; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:25:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE1617EAE for ; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:25:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from smsltd.demon.co.uk ([158.152.67.200] helo=bandsman) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14WwV7-0000x3-0C for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 08:25:54 +0000 From: "Nigel Horne" To: Subject: RE: Confidentiality of member files - copyright Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 08:25:53 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <200102240900.BAA04582@honor.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David, over here such data are protected by the Data Protection Act. Is there something similar in France/the US? -Nigel -- Nigel Horne. Arranger, Composer, Conductor, Typesetter. Owner of the brass band group of the Internet. ICQ#20252325 http://www.bandsman.co.uk/music.htm From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 25 16:59:32 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA00916; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.107]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26FC817EAE for ; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org ([65.5.124.106]) by femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010226004656.YDRC10024.femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ee-nt.climber.org> for ; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:46:56 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20010225164338.01ab6530@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:44:29 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: SRE Subject: Re: Confidentiality of member files - copyright In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 07:31 AM 2/24/01, James M Galvin wrote: >This is all well and good and I'm sure that like us most companies who >would make such a statement really do plan to stick to it. The scenario >to be concerned about though is what happens if and when the company >"sells out." Amazon.com, as you probably know, retroactively changed their privacy policy and you did NOT have a chance to opt out. Their word was worth the virtual paper it was (not) printed on! I just heard that email subscriber databases are being viewed as sellable "assets" in bankruptcy proceedings... the court-appointed trustee is actually selling things in violation of the bankrupt company's privacy policy. Information basically cannot be protected, IMHO, and if you promise to do what you cannot do you may be in trouble later. SRE mailto:eckert@climber.org | http://www.climber.org/eckert/ Info on peak climbing email lists mailto:info@climber.org It may be that your whole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 27 20:25:04 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA01460; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:09:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.rev.net (mail.rev.net [206.67.68.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DAB417E8B for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:09:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from fantasy (USER145.GVA.NET [216.80.135.149]) by mail.rev.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f1S49oH28685 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:09:51 -0500 Message-Id: <200102280409.f1S49oH28685@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:09:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Confidentiality of member files - copyright In-reply-to: <5.0.0.25.0.20010225164338.01ab6530@pop.climber.org> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 25 Feb 2001, at 16:44, SRE wrote: > I just heard that email subscriber databases are being viewed as > sellable "assets" in bankruptcy proceedings... the court-appointed > trustee is actually selling things in violation of the bankrupt > company's privacy policy. This is a fascinating problem, and not really all that new. Customer information, contact information and other such "information" has always been considered a part of a company's assets [you've probably heard about one doctor "selling his practice" to another or one doctor taking over the practice of another]. Most of the time you don't even notice [e.g., if the owner of a magazine changes, you just keep receiving it just like normal and don't even really think that your customer-info just got sold from one company to another -- My bank branch is closing, and is about to be re-opened as a branch of a different bank; the new bank has already contacted me and made clear that if I do nothing [i.e., this is an *opt*out* situation] my accounts will be transferred to similar accounts at the new bank. The question is not the convenience of the changeover [yes, I'd rather have the nearby-branch than the same-logo-on-my-checks] but rather than the new bank *obtained* all that info about me that I"d have assumed/hoped that the banking laws would have held confidential... but I gather that this kind of chageover is SOP [and indeed, no one around here is complaining]. There's a subtle legal issue that I'm not sure of, but I guess is clear just by observation: which is that the particular policies of a business cease to have effect when the company ceases to exist. And so the distribution of its assets [and no need for quotes around it: unless you're real new to these sorts of things and/or really naive, that kind of customer info *IS* an asset of the company] can actually proceed in violation of the former-company's privacy policy. It is possible, I guess, that the privacy policy would have held, even beyond the life of the company [thereby requiring that such info be destroyed, in accordance with the company policy, rather than distributed to creditors or whoever]. OTOH, bankruptcy courts take a dim view of company policies that destroy assets that could have been used to defray the losses of the company's creditors, so perhaps that takes precendence [imagine a company policy that says that no one will ever get possession of the building the company is in.. do you really suppose that the courts/creditors would raze the building rather than selling it to pay off the company's debts?] [not to mention that company "policies" aren't legally binding, in that they're almost all written so that the company can change them unilaterally whenever it chooses to, often retroactively and often without the requirement that current-customers be notified [there are exceptions, e.g., for changes in insurance policies and other financial kinds of things] A different question is why net-folk would think that net-customer- information would be any different from all the other 'information' that is, and generally always has been, considered part of a company's assets and somehow have to be special and inviolate... /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 27 22:37:16 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA03296; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.82]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C17E517E8B for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:17:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org ([65.5.124.106]) by femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010228061654.XGRF29358.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ee-nt.climber.org>; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:16:54 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20010227215639.022d02b0@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:57:07 -0800 To: "Bernie Cosell" From: SRE Subject: Re: Confidentiality of member files - copyright Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <200102280409.f1S49oH28685@mail.rev.net> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010225164338.01ab6530@pop.climber.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:09 PM 2/27/01, Bernie Cosell wrote: >A different question is why net-folk would think that net-customer- >information would be any different from all the other 'information' Because the people collecting it *said* it would be treated differently. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 27 23:32:52 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA04810; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:16:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.circle.net (smtp.circle.net [209.95.64.26]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 665C517EB9 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:16:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from d019.dhcp212-107.cybercable.fr ([212.198.107.19]) by smtp.circle.net with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 14Y0qM-000H8e-00 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:16:14 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: sharpword001@pop.sharp-words.com Message-Id: Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:16:29 +0100 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: David Sharp Subject: Re: Confidentiality of member files - copyright Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Many thanks for a series of most interesting replies to my message. (NB: this is my fifth attempt to send this response. Previously I had a series of "too many hops" refusal messages. Don't know if it's anything to do with the list. (The messages seemed related to: At 0:48 -0800 3/04/36, Mail Delivery Subsystem wrote: >Reporting-MTA: dns; server.postmodern.com ) At 10:41 -0500 24/02/01, Sharon Tucci wrote: >We've heard of almost every imaginable possibility >happen with competitors. From employees leaving a >company with copies of clients' subscriber lists to >the company itself SELLING subscriber lists to one >or more competitors of a client because the client's >account fell into arrears! This is basically the kind of thing I worry about. Another risk, which may be particularly high in the current climate, is that of a company getting into severe financial difficulties and deciding "To hell with our terms of service agreement - if we don't sell those client files to Spams-R-Us Corp, we won't survive beyond the end of the month." [Indeed I wonder to what extent the current dotcom meltdown is leading to mass violations of that type. But that's probably outside the scope of this list.] However in the nature of things, I assume it's probably very difficult for anyone to ever prove that someone has stolen or sold a membership list. Most people already receive so much spam that it's probably difficult to point to some new message or messages and say "Ah - I'm getting that because I signed up to such-and-such a mailing list!" And even if they did detect such a change, I imagine it would be very difficult to prove in a court of law what the precise cause was. I wonder if anyone's ever done studies, or controlled tests, on that kind of phenomenon? At 20:14 -0700 23/02/01, Theodore M. Smith wrote: >I think it's a mistake for anyone to promise ABSOLUTE confidentiality. This seems to me to be an inescapable conclusion, and I shall be formulating the language on my future web site to take account of that. Nigel Horne in my native UK writes: >David, over here such data are protected by the Data Protection Act. Is >there something similar in France/the US? The French equivalent is the 1978 law on data processing and basic freedoms (loi informatique et libert=E9), which is outlined (mostly only in French) at http://www.cnil.fr/ Under the law anyone whose activities lead them to create a file containing personal information on third parties is required to register with a commission (the CNIL), which I have just done. The relevant EU text is apparently Directive 95/46/CE, which can be found at http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/lif/dat/1995/en_395L0046.html I understand the US equivalent is the Electronic Freedom of Information Act, but I don't know much about that. -- David Sharp, journaliste, France http://www.sharp-words.com/ E-mail From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 28 00:17:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA05729; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:02:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD4C17E8B for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:02:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1S82FB04563 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 03:02:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA09847 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 03:02:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 03:02:15 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Confidentiality of member files - copyright In-Reply-To: <200102280409.f1S49oH28685@mail.rev.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You can keep the subscriber list on an announcement or anonymous posting list fairly safe if you run the list on a machine that you own. Here in the US, this can be accomplished using several options. Run the machine from your home or business on a dedicated line. Run the list via pop-mail with a dialup connection that calls in on a regular schedule. Rent rack space from a company that co-locates... Someone could still get your data by packet-sniffing, breaking into your machine, your house or some such. - murr - From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 28 00:48:26 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA06042; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B642317E8B for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:21:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1S8GFi29659; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:16:15 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:21:32 -0800 Subject: Re: Confidentiality of member files - copyright From: Chuq Von Rospach To: David Sharp , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/27/01 11:16 PM, "David Sharp" wrote: > [Indeed I wonder to what extent the current dotcom meltdown is > leading to mass violations of that type. But that's probably outside > the scope of this list.] > > However in the nature of things, I assume it's probably very > difficult for anyone to ever prove that someone has stolen or sold a > membership list. Not really, not with a little planning. There are a number of people who are very privacy-sensitive. Some of them actually create unique usernames for every list and site they're on. End result: they know exactly where mail comes from, because it's uniquely identified for them. And if it leaks, you can be sure, they'll let you know. But admins who are worried about leakage should do what companies have done for years: salt your data. You can subscribe AOL, or hotmail, or yahoo, or (name your favorite free email) names that are ONLY used for the specific purpose of trapping leakage. The problem, of course, is that those addresses can (and do) leak in other ways -- I know I've never given out my AOL name, I know it's never been used for anything by anyone who could leak it, and yet, yo don't want to know how much spam I get there. So even though your leak account 'leaks', you have to worry about whether you leaked, or whether the host leaked. My preference is to salt my lists (and archives!) with addresses at a friendly domain that I can trust, is hopefully not easily attached to any domain I'm attached to, and which doesn't call attention to itself. That way, you can catch people who somehow get your address list or harvest your archives (your archives are behind a password and locked out of global search engines, right? If not -- don't bother trying to protect them, you've already lost). (Digression -- if you post to list-managers, you will get spammed, because the archives are wide-open, and are indexed in the global search engines, and so the archives can be harvested because your e-mail address has been published out to sites that you can't control access to, and neither can mike as admin of list-managers, because list-mnagers is on mail-archive.com, which is wide open. If you want to scare yourself, wander through the major search engines and search on your email address -- because you can be sure the spam harvesters do, and you'll find out how often your carefully protected address is handed to them on a silver platter... Wide-open archives are a long tradition with mail lists, and a rotten thing to do on today's internet, and a much bigger issue than amazon's privacy policy and some of the other strawmen that people yell about. Makes you wonder how many list managers who scream about privacy are doing a worse job for their users than the sites they scream about, but I won't go there.... End digression) It won't catch folks who harvest by subscribing and sucking postings, to do that, you actually have to post. Whether you do or not depends on lots of factors, since it has other privacy and legitimacy issues, since you're (as admin) going from salting your list with test addresses to creating a falsified identity on your own list. That's going to some honk people off if they find out. What do I do? That would be telling. Other than saying my archives are behind a password, are protected by a robots.txt, and aren't in the global search engines or anywhere the spambots can get to without a lot of work, but that I also have to find an EASIER way for users to get to them, because the current system sucks -- but I'm not doing away with it until I can make it easier without cutting security... Chuq (who's going to get yelled at again, I'll bet...) -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Funny, I don't remember being absent minded. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 28 02:18:45 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA08007; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 01:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF61717E8B for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 01:47:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14Y3CW-0004ny-00; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 01:47:16 -0800 To: David Sharp Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Confidentiality of member files - copyright In-Reply-To: Message from David Sharp of "Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:16:29 +0100." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 01:47:16 -0800 Message-ID: <18471.983353636@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:16:29 +0100 David Sharp wrote: > However in the nature of things, I assume it's probably very > difficult for anyone to ever prove that someone has stolen or sold > a membership list. This is actually rather easy to "prove" should one care to make the effort early enough. Many people I know use Postfix/QMail-style plus addressing for all their list subscriptions. Thus, for instance, they'll be subscribed to this list as: claw+list-managers@mydomain.dom and to the svlug list as: claw+svlug@mydomain.dom and to the foobar list as: claw+foobar@mydomain.dom Thusly they have unique addresses for every list they subscribe to. The MTA handles it all transparently, requiring no per-list configuration, and you can do nice things at the LDA level for filtering. Of course this also means that they can track what addresses get spam, and thereby, to a high degree of certainty, by what vectors a given spammer obtained their address. Subscribe a sleeper address to the same list (ie set to NOMAIL or one which never posts), and you can use that address as the alarm to detect subscriber list transfers, > Most people already receive so much spam that it's probably > difficult to point to some new message or messages and say "Ah - > I'm getting that because I signed up to such-and-such a mailing > list!" With the above, which is fairly trivial to set up, and is something that several ISPs are offering as an added service, its quite easy. > And even if they did detect such a change, I imagine it would be > very difficult to prove in a court of law what the precise cause > was. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 28 07:47:08 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA13857; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:03:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.107]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2949517EC0 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [65.3.200.99] by femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010228150339.LVMN10024.femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com@[65.3.200.99]> for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:03:39 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: meh@pop.dnai.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:05:06 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Mikael Hansen Subject: Re: Confidentiality of member files - copyright Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:02 -0500 2/28/2001, murr rhame wrote: >You can keep the subscriber list on an announcement or anonymous >posting list fairly safe if you run the list on a machine that >you own. Indeed. But if what a small company decides to move its subscribers to, say, a Yahoo-based list without asking the subscribers first? They may not feel comfortable with such a move given less local control, and isn't there then more reason to worry about leakage? At 00:21 -0800 2/28/2001, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >But admins who are worried about leakage should do what companies have done >for years: salt your data. You can subscribe AOL, or hotmail, or yahoo, or >(name your favorite free email) names that are ONLY used for the specific >purpose of trapping leakage. The problem, of course, is that those addresses >can (and do) leak in other ways From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 28 09:19:06 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA15284; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:43:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED8E517EC0 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:43:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1SGc3i07010; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:38:03 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:43:20 -0800 Subject: Re: Confidentiality of member files - copyright From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Mikael Hansen , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/28/01 7:05 AM, "Mikael Hansen" wrote: > Indeed. But if what a small company decides to move its subscribers > to, say, a Yahoo-based list without asking the subscribers first? > They may not feel comfortable with such a move given less local > control, and isn't there then more reason to worry about leakage? These issues aren't all that new -- what if that restaurant you frequent hires a new waiter, and he at some point in the past 'borrowed' a credit card number and got caught? It's just that on the net, these things seem to be more visible, or at least worry people more. You're on mailing lists all over the place -- just ask your bank and your credit card companies. And those get sold and lent all the time, and not always to places that are squeaky clean. Do you worry or monitor those this closely? (I know that some do; the other 98% of the universe doesn't). You have to manage risk. You can't avoid it -- but I also don't think you need to let yourself become paranoid over it, either. Some stuff just isn't worth worrying too much about until it happens. For whatever that's worth. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. I wish I could say your enthusiasm was contagious... From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 28 10:12:27 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA15886; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:28:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39BB017EBC for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:28:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1SHS8G14470; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:28:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA29125; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:28:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:28:07 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: Mikael Hansen Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Confidentiality of member files - copyright In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Mikael Hansen wrote: > At 03:02 -0500 2/28/2001, murr rhame wrote: > > >You can keep the subscriber list on an announcement or anonymous > >posting list fairly safe if you run the list on a machine that > >you own. > > Indeed. But if what a small company decides to move its subscribers > to, say, a Yahoo-based list without asking the subscribers first? > They may not feel comfortable with such a move given less local > control, and isn't there then more reason to worry about leakage? Assuming reasonable conditions, if the listowner OWNS the machine that hosts the list, then the list can not be moved without the assitance of the list admin. The subscribers are at the mercy of the list admin no matter who does the hosting. This thread was about list data being compromised by the host site. - murr - From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 28 12:33:20 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA18401; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:07:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from devonshire.cnchost.com (devonshire.concentric.net [207.155.248.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDCB17EC6 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (mg128-084.ricochet.net [204.179.128.84]) by devonshire.cnchost.com id PAA04110; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:07:18 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010228115334.02e015e0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:02:08 -0800 To: List-Managers From: JC Dill Subject: robots.txt In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 12:21 AM 2/28/01, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >What do I do? That would be telling. Other than saying my archives are >behind a password, are protected by a robots.txt, and aren't in the global >search engines or anywhere the spambots can get to without a lot of work, robots.txt is widely ignored by spammer email harvester robots. >but that I also have to find an EASIER way for users to get to them, because >the current system sucks -- but I'm not doing away with it until I can make >it easier without cutting security... I've been told (but not personally verified) that if the actual archive files are not linkable except through a search interface, they will not be spidered. It's pretty hard to write a spider that can intelligently go through a search interface, so most email harvester robots don't try. There's enough of the web out there that they can't spider through all of it anyway. I do know that I get zero spam via the email addresses that are listed for several different egroups/yahoo groups lists, even though I've been on several of these lists for over 2 years. And none of the addresses used on those groups is findable with a web search. jc From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 28 14:03:16 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA19476; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:41:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 879B017EC6 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:41:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1SLZci17122; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:35:38 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:40:55 -0800 Subject: Re: robots.txt From: Chuq Von Rospach To: JC Dill , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010228115334.02e015e0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/28/01 12:02 PM, "JC Dill" wrote: > robots.txt is widely ignored by spammer email harvester robots. Actually, I assume it's universally ignored, so I don't depend on it. > I've been told (but not personally verified) that if the actual archive > files are not linkable except through a search interface, they will not be > spidered. That's good enough to keep them out of the global search engines, which is a big start, but not enough. It depends on how much whoever is harvesting wants to harvest. > It's pretty hard to write a spider that can intelligently go > through a search interface, so most email harvester robots don't > try. There's enough of the web out there that they can't spider through > all of it anyway. Security through obscurity is a bad idea. To some degree, even the best of protections is more "make it so hard to steal my car they go steal yours instead" things. > I do know that I get zero spam via the email addresses that are listed for > several different egroups/yahoo groups lists, even though I've been on > several of these lists for over 2 years. And none of the addresses used on > those groups is findable with a web search. You're lucky. I haven't been so lucky. FWIW, it took me under 4 days to get my first spam from the e-mail address I registered on slashdot. It doesn't take long these days. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty. To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 28 16:12:33 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA21241; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from asante.asante.com (asante.asante.COM [192.108.250.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6622F17EC6 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from archy.asante.com (IDENT:bpm@archy.asante.COM [192.203.52.121]) by asante.asante.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA22526 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:44:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:51:19 -0800 (PST) From: Breen Mullins X-Sender: bpm@archy.asante.com To: List-Managers Subject: Re: robots.txt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > FWIW, it took me under 4 days to get my first spam from the e-mail address I > registered on slashdot. It doesn't take long these days. When I set up networking for my church's office last year, the rector got her first spam before she sent or received a real email! Breen -- Breen Mullins San Mateo, Calif. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 28 17:26:20 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA22236; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:04:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com (209-44-133-26.pdq.net [209.44.133.26]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34BBA17EC6 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:04:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08928; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:42:11 -0600 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:42:11 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Breen Mullins Cc: List-Managers Subject: Re: robots.txt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ewwww, spam in the rector. On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Breen Mullins wrote: > When I set up networking for my church's office last year, the rector > got her first spam before she sent or received a real email! -- -Mitch From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 28 17:34:19 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA22218; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:02:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from get.topica.com (unknown [206.111.131.80]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2163C17EC6 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ashton@localhost) by get.topica.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA32562 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:02:16 -0800 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:02:16 -0800 From: Ashton MacAndrews To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Confidentiality of member files - copyright Message-ID: <20010228180216.A32489@get.topica.com> References: <18471.983353636@kanga.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <18471.983353636@kanga.nu>; from claw@kanga.nu on Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 01:47:16AM -0800 X-Tol: http://www.cauce.org/ Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk J C Lawrence : > Many people I know use Postfix/QMail-style > plus addressing for all their list subscriptions. There are also the per-list eddresses available at http://www.mailshell.com/mail/client/join.html mail can be forwarded, browsed, or both and there are levels of spam filtering. Or the forwarder that will process against chosen MAPS lists (at $50us a year) https://stop.mail-abuse.org/ many of these issues have been/are being addressed on the high-signal Forum On Risks To The Public In Computers And Related Systems http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/ news:comp.risks To: risks-request@csl.sri.com Subject: subscribe From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 28 18:35:21 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA23314; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:16:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AC3EB17EC6 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:16:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 1934 invoked by uid 1000); 1 Mar 2001 02:16:17 -0000 Message-ID: <20010301021617.1933.qmail@celery.tssi.com> From: nolan@celery.tssi.com Subject: Re: robots.txt (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:16:17 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Ewwww, spam in the rector. Does it go well with altar wine? -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 28 20:06:19 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA24301; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:39:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F0217EC6 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:39:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f213dqC23701 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:39:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA29069 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:39:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:39:51 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: List Managers Subject: Re: robots.txt (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20010301021617.1933.qmail@celery.tssi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 nolan@celery.tssi.com wrote: > > Ewwww, spam in the rector. > > Does it go well with altar wine? Way lots better than real Spam [tm] in a synagogue. - murr -