From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 09:16:53 2002 Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C57C3195FCD for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 19063 invoked by uid 50); 1 Aug 2002 16:14:08 -0000 To: list-managers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020801011523.03e5fa08@parrot-int.squawk.com> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020801011523.03e5fa08@parrot-int.squawk.com> (Nick Simicich's message of "Thu, 01 Aug 2002 02:10:05 -0400") From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:14:08 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090005 (Oort Gnus v0.05) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter, sparc-sun-solaris2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200208/1 X-Sequence-Number: 629 Nick Simicich writes: > Two of my lists were signed up to m.gmane.org over the last couple of > days. The userid that they used made me suspect something was going on, > and I looked at http://www.gmane.org/ Have you talked to the gmane folks? This is a pet project of Lars Ingebrigtsen, the author of Gnus and one of the coolest people that I know on-line anywhere. I'm quite sure he's not trying to make life hard for anyone and would be happy to change policies to fix whatever problems you encounter. I'm guessing it was just an oversight, or like Chuq said, that they weren't able to find where it was published that your lists shouldn't be externally archived. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 09:20:25 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (lofcom.com [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DADA5196176 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (lof@chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA31847; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:19:09 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020801011523.03e5fa08@parrot-int.squawk.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:56:56 -0400 To: list-managers From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org X-Archive-Number: 200208/2 X-Sequence-Number: 630 At 2:10 AM -0400 8/1/02, Nick Simicich is rumored to have typed: > I have a policy that disallows this -- external exploders and archives and > so forth. To which at 2:45 AM -0400 8/1/02, Chuq Von Rospach responded: > Silly (sort of) question. Is it published? Sillier question...is there some "boilerplate" statement that can catch the bulk of this stuff? I know on some of my lists there are disgruntled people running closet distributions, and don't much care since they can't annoy others on the "real" lists by posting, but I routinely check the spiders to see if any of these jerks are republishing on the Web. All we have here is a copyright statement in each mailing restricting republication without permission. I have the feeling we're gonna need much more than that...can't wait to spend money on an attorney for a couple of hobby lists. Nick Simicich also said: > This rule in your GLOBAL access_rules should completely lock them out of a > virtual domain if you add it to the access_rules in Majordomo2. And of course, there are different ways for other mailing list servers. But I'm curious to know if you perchance have copies of the original subscription requests - if they are envelope-from gmane.org, there doesn't seem to be any reason not to just REJECT their mail on the sendmail level (other than the postmaster argument, which I'd maintain doesn't apply here since I don't want to talk to these clowns AT ALL and it's my server/my choice, can anyone think of a legitimate reason to accept mail from them?). Chuq Von Rospach wound up with: > Thanks for catcing this, nick. Add my humble thanks to his...this is looking as ugly as mail-archive.com or findmail.com (at least the latter is out of business). Anyone maintaining a list of these archivers? Charlie -- A virtual chihuahua, gnawing on the pantleg of the annoying and foolish. It's futile, but I am undaunted. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 09:44:56 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44FF2195F3C for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g71GgaO02567; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:42:36 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:42:54 -0700 Subject: Re: m.gmane.org From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Charlie Summers , list-managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/3 X-Sequence-Number: 631 On 8/1/02 8:56 AM, "Charlie Summers" wrote: >> Silly (sort of) question. Is it published? > > Sillier question...is there some "boilerplate" statement that can catch > the bulk of this stuff? Take a look at what I wrote on www.lists.apple.com in the list rules. We're going to be rewriting it (or more correctly, apple's lawyers are) soon, but it seems to be pretty good. You're welcome to adopt it. FWIW, the admin of gmane.org wrote me this morning and let me know all my lists had been removed from the archives, so he's cooperative and responsive. I'll give him credit for that. > Add my humble thanks to his...this is looking as ugly as mail-archive.com > or findmail.com (at least the latter is out of business). Anyone maintaining > a list of these archivers? I'll play devil's advocate here. This is the work of an open source project. It looks (really!) to me like it's a group of people with their heart in the right place, but who haven't taken into consideration some of the content control issues in the can of worms they're opening. Their intent seems laudable, and I'd say they're more a group of people that we ought to consider talking to and educating about our issues than a group of greedy dotcommers looking to make money off our content. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 09:46:17 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96729195FB5 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g71GiVO02846; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:44:31 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:44:49 -0700 Subject: Re: m.gmane.org From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Russ Allbery , list-managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/4 X-Sequence-Number: 632 On 8/1/02 9:14 AM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: > Have you talked to the gmane folks? This is a pet project of Lars > Ingebrigtsen, He was the one who wrote me this morning. Like I said, this really came across as a well-meaning guy who didn't know (because my site didn't tell him), not a leech. In fact, I realized this morning that I'd seen a blurb on gmane on freshmeat and flagged it in my to-do list for further research since it looked interesting.... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ He doesn't have ulcers, but he's a carrier. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 10:00:36 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72C00195B7E for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17aJIg-00064h-00 for ; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:59:46 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17aJIg-00064Y-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:59:46 -0700 To: Charlie Summers Cc: list-managers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: Message from Charlie Summers of "Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:56:56 EDT." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:59:46 -0700 Message-ID: <23345.1028221186@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: charlie@lofcom.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: sZhLPXN1LwzvAdgb2ppdpDS20zk X-Archive-Number: 200208/5 X-Sequence-Number: 633 On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:56:56 -0400 Charlie Summers wrote: > Chuq Von Rospach wound up with: >> Thanks for catcing this, nick. > Add my humble thanks to his...this is looking as ugly as > mail-archive.com or findmail.com (at least the latter is out of > business). Anyone maintaining a list of these archivers? While I understand Chuq's concerns regarding control and protection of his posting subscriber data it should be admitted that not all lists share that concern, and if anything, the lists that do are rather strongly in the minority. GMane, mail-archive.com etc offer an extremely useful service for a great many lists which do not have external archiver/exploder policies (mail-archive for instance is my preferred tool for search the Linux Kernel and BugTraq lists). Heck, I know of more than a few lists which subscribed themselves to mail-archive when they first started, just so they'd have an effective searchable web archive. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 10:41:47 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (lofcom.com [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B9191959E7 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (lof@chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08363; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:40:30 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Envelope-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <23345.1028221186@kanga.nu> References: Message from Charlie Summers of "Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:56:56 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:32:06 -0400 To: J C Lawrence From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org Cc: list-managers X-Archive-Number: 200208/6 X-Sequence-Number: 634 At 12:59 PM -0400 8/1/02, J C Lawrence is rumored to have typed: > GMane, mail-archive.com etc offer an > extremely useful service for a great many lists which do not have > external archiver/exploder policies (mail-archive for instance is my > preferred tool for search the Linux Kernel and BugTraq lists). I respectfully disagree. ANY archiver which allows "subscription request= s" to be sent by anyone, without the express permission of the list owner, = is engaged in theft. > Heck, I know of more than a few lists which subscribed themselves to > mail-archive when they first started, just so they'd have an effective > searchable web archive. Which is fine and dandy, since we must assume that the list owners are g= iving express permission in that instance. You misunderstand my complaints = about such services; if you want to set up a web-based archive, or a mail-t= o-news gateway, of any of your lists, you are welcomed to do so either usin= g software you control or third-parties like these. You may make the archiv= es public or private, and do whatever else you'd like to do with them, incl= uding printing them out and droping them from an office building if that's = your choice (with the possible littering charges ignored for the sake of th= e argument). If, on the other hand, as is certainly true of both mail-archive.com and= gmane.org, YOU can subscribe their archiver/gateway to MY lists, they have= n't _any_ permission from me (expressed or implied), and are engaged in sim= ple theft of intellectual property - both the author's AND the list owners'= (for compilation lists like digests) copyrights are being violated. And THAT'S where I have a serious problem with these "services." Charlie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 10:42:27 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (lofcom.com [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB211959E7 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (lof@chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08448; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:41:05 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:37:59 -0400 To: Chuq Von Rospach , list-managers From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org X-Archive-Number: 200208/7 X-Sequence-Number: 635 At 12:42 PM -0400 8/1/02, Chuq Von Rospach is rumored to have typed: > You're welcome to adopt it. I appreciate that, thanks, and will take you up on the offer. > Their intent seems > laudable, and I'd say they're more a group of people that we ought to > consider talking to and educating about our issues than a group of greedy > dotcommers looking to make money off our content. I never meant to imply the people behind it are evil; it's the lack of express permission, IMHO, that is. I remember findmail.com _really_ hammering to get in, up to and including someone from there manually subscribing a reflector that bounced to their "vault." Left a _really_ bad taste in my mouth I haven't washed out yet...I never thought I'd be glad when the Yahoo!s bought something. Charlie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 10:46:04 2002 Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.176.124.156]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7A4D1959E7 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toshiba.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06069351E7 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:45:16 -0400 (EDT) X-America-Has-Resolve: yes X-Message-Flag: Microsoft Outlook is insecure. Upgrade your Mail Program Now! Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020801131755.26a66350@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:33:42 -0400 To: list-managers From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020801011523.03e5fa08@parrot-int.squawk.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6D703A51; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/8 X-Sequence-Number: 636 At 11:45 PM 2002-07-31 -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >On 7/31/02 11:10 PM, "Nick Simicich" wrote: > > > I have a policy that disallows this -- external exploders and archives and > > so forth. > >Silly (sort of) question. Is it published? Yes. Part of the FAQ. There were accesses to the FAQ the day that the lists were signed up, but I have no idea whether the gmane people did it. Had they searched the FAQ for the string "archive" they would have found the note that requires any external archiver to contact each message author individually for permission. They responded to my note to postmaster, and I replied with my opinion that this violates the mailing list owner's compilation copyright and that they need to contact the mailing list owner for permission before making this sort of connection. My site policies would stop me from granting any such permission --- the right to participate in an external archive or not is reserved to the individual message author. >Here's why I ask. I went and looked, and my plaidworks lists were subscribed >to gmane.org (I've fixed that, and sent a "delete from your system all >messages) note. The lists.apple.com lists weren't. Lists explicitly makes it >clear it's not allowed. Plaidworks doesn't (but will). > >So it looks like they didn't ask either of us, but didn't create gateways >for the lists on a site that said not to. So I'm curious whether your site >also explicitly says not to and was ignored (or the note was missed), or if >they somehow missed all the apple lists, but still found my small home >listserver (I don't find that likely). More likely that the note was missed, although it is also possible that no one specifically asked that the apple lists be gatewayed. They have some discussions on line (and, I'll bet, googleable) and you might try searching them. -- I'm going to change my name to 'Squawk' because that is what my parrots call me. Nick Simicich mailto:njs@scifi.squawk.com http://scifi.squawk.com/njs.html -- Stop by and Light Up The World! From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 11:12:27 2002 Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1B5201959E7 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20077 invoked by uid 50); 1 Aug 2002 18:11:37 -0000 To: list-managers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org References: In-Reply-To: (Charlie Summers's message of "Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:56:56 -0400") From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:11:37 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090005 (Oort Gnus v0.05) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter, sparc-sun-solaris2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200208/9 X-Sequence-Number: 637 Charlie Summers writes: > And of course, there are different ways for other mailing list servers. > But I'm curious to know if you perchance have copies of the original > subscription requests - if they are envelope-from gmane.org, there > doesn't seem to be any reason not to just REJECT their mail on the > sendmail level (other than the postmaster argument, which I'd maintain > doesn't apply here since I don't want to talk to these clowns AT ALL and > it's my server/my choice, can anyone think of a legitimate reason to > accept mail from them?). Why don't you just send them mail and say "please don't archive any of the lists hosted on X and Y and Z?" Why does everyone always have to be so confrontational and aggressive about things rather than assuming good will on the part of other people for at least the first pass? -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 11:22:33 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CDBA195F13 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g71ILBO15529; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:21:11 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:21:29 -0700 Subject: Re: m.gmane.org From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Russ Allbery , list-managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/10 X-Sequence-Number: 638 On 8/1/02 11:11 AM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: > Why don't you just send them mail and say "please don't archive any of the > lists hosted on X and Y and Z?" That's what I did. It even worked. I try to be polite-and-firm for the first letter. I save hostility for when they blow me off... > Why does everyone always have to be so confrontational and aggressive > about things rather than assuming good will on the part of other people > for at least the first pass? Because enough idiots have played off our good will that it's hard to some days? I sympathize with Charlie, actually. But you're correct. But after you deal with enough turkeys in life, you start thinking everything gobbles. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ He doesn't have ulcers, but he's a carrier. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 11:29:17 2002 Received: from above.proper.com (mail.proper.com [208.184.76.45]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8CB9195F61 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [165.227.249.18] (165-227-249-18.client.dsl.net [165.227.249.18]) by above.proper.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g71ISNw04353; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:28:23 -0700 To: Chuq Von Rospach , Nick Simicich , list-managers From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: m.gmane.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Archive-Number: 200208/11 X-Sequence-Number: 639 At 11:45 PM -0700 7/31/02, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >Thanks for catcing this, nick. Ditto. It looks like they mass-subscribed to my lists in April based on a scrape, not on actual user requests, since they subscribed to some nearly-dead lists that have no traffic. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 11:52:58 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 835DC195AA0 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17aL3W-0006We-00 for ; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:52:14 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17aL3V-0006WR-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:52:13 -0700 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC Cc: Chuq Von Rospach , Nick Simicich , list-managers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: Message from Paul Hoffman / IMC of "Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:28:23 PDT." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:52:13 -0700 Message-ID: <25074.1028227933@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: phoffman@imc.org, chuqui@plaidworks.com, njs@scifi.squawk.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: kz1ToFeF+VFkcyK4aa+roFY2+Cc X-Archive-Number: 200208/12 X-Sequence-Number: 640 On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:28:23 -0700 Paul Hoffman > wrote: > At 11:45 PM -0700 7/31/02, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >> Thanks for catcing this, nick. > Ditto. It looks like they mass-subscribed to my lists in April based > on a scrape, not on actual user requests, since they subscribed to > some nearly-dead lists that have no traffic. More likely someone merely threw their personal list subscription database at GMane. I've known a couple people to do precisely that. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 11:54:05 2002 Received: from pop2b.ripco.com (pop2b.ripco.com [209.100.227.27]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B35B195AC4 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ord351473 (cpe-66-87-152-33.il.sprintbbd.net [66.87.152.33]) by pop2b.ripco.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g71IrTc12634 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:53:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <003501c2398c$ad3f32c0$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> From: "David W. Tamkin" To: "list-managers" References: <23345.1028221186@kanga.nu> Subject: Re: m.gmane.org Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:49:13 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Archive-Number: 200208/13 X-Sequence-Number: 641 JCL wrote, | Heck, I know of more than a few lists which subscribed themselves to | mail-archive when they first started, just so they'd have an effective | searchable web archive. ... as I've known of many who use eScribe that way. The key there is that those listowners subscribed to archiving services of their own volition. It sounds as though gname's position is that they will archive and redistribute your lists at their will unless you tell them not to; you have to find out that it's happening (or can happen) and then you must proactively opt out. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 11:59:07 2002 Received: from tonnant.cnchost.com (tonnant.concentric.net [207.155.248.72]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E9C919604E for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (adsl-208-201-244-240.sonic.net [208.201.244.240]) by tonnant.cnchost.com id OAA04186; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:58:21 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20020801114922.03db0600@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:58:03 -0700 To: List Managers From: JC Dill Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/14 X-Sequence-Number: 642 On 11:11 AM 8/1/02, Russ Allbery wrote: >Charlie Summers writes: > >> And of course, there are different ways for other mailing list servers. >> But I'm curious to know if you perchance have copies of the original >> subscription requests - if they are envelope-from gmane.org, there >> doesn't seem to be any reason not to just REJECT their mail on the >> sendmail level (other than the postmaster argument, which I'd maintain >> doesn't apply here since I don't want to talk to these clowns AT ALL and >> it's my server/my choice, can anyone think of a legitimate reason to >> accept mail from them?). > >Why don't you just send them mail and say "please don't archive any of the >lists hosted on X and Y and Z?" That's opt-out, and exactly why spam is such a problem. They need to ask for permission *to* archive from each list they want to archive, not add lists in-masse and then require each list A) to discover this and then B) ask them to NOT archive. >Why does everyone always have to be so confrontational and aggressive >about things rather than assuming good will on the part of other people >for at least the first pass? Because your solution doesn't scale. If they were full of good will, they would ASK if it's ok to subscribe a list to their archive. They would first check the list FAQ to see if external archives are allowed, and then after subscribing closely read the welcome message. If, after subscribing (and seeing the welcome message) they found any sign that this wasn't allowed, they would immediately remove the list and any archives they might have made while checking for permission. If they still found no sign that it wasn't allowed, they should still email the list owner and say "I didn't see any signs that this was forbidden, so I've done foo. If this is against your unwritten policy, please let me know." That's just plain good manners, you don't publicly archive other people's email without their permission. jc From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 12:35:24 2002 Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B4B8D1959E7 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20629 invoked by uid 50); 1 Aug 2002 19:34:40 -0000 To: "list-managers" Subject: Re: m.gmane.org References: <23345.1028221186@kanga.nu> <003501c2398c$ad3f32c0$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> In-Reply-To: <003501c2398c$ad3f32c0$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> ("David W. Tamkin"'s message of "Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:49:13 -0500") From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 12:34:40 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090005 (Oort Gnus v0.05) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter, sparc-sun-solaris2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200208/15 X-Sequence-Number: 643 David W Tamkin writes: > The key there is that those listowners subscribed to archiving services > of their own volition. It sounds as though gname's position is that > they will archive and redistribute your lists at their will unless you > tell them not to; you have to find out that it's happening (or can > happen) and then you must proactively opt out. I'm not an expert on gmane. But I did listen to the discussion when it got started, since it all took place on the Gnus list. Based on my memory of that discussion, the official stance of the people actually running gmane is "You can submit lists for archiving, and we trust you not to do anything stupid. Submitting lists that don't want to be archived is something stupid -- don't do that." It sounds like people aren't behaving, which sucks. That probably means that gmane is going to have to limit who can request lists be archived to just the people who can be trusted to have already contacted the list owner and asked permission. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 13:11:00 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C5E195FB5 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17aMH1-0006up-00 for ; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:10:15 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17aMH0-0006ug-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:10:14 -0700 To: JC Dill Cc: List Managers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: Message from JC Dill of "Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:58:03 PDT." <5.0.0.25.2.20020801114922.03db0600@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020801114922.03db0600@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:10:14 -0700 Message-ID: <26577.1028232614@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: inet-list@vo.cnchost.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: d3tP10Rb0kjyg+vw9tQIKYLwV84 X-Archive-Number: 200208/16 X-Sequence-Number: 644 On Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:58:03 -0700 JC Dill wrote: > That's opt-out, and exactly why spam is such a problem. They need to > ask for permission *to* archive from each list they want to archive, > not add lists in-masse and then require each list A) to discover this > and then B) ask them to NOT archive. There's a cultural divide here. Its similar to the cultural divide between the idea of a list-mom versus a list-owner. Many list owners consider that they own their lists, own the content of their lists, etc. Among list owners its not a particularly uncommon view. However among list users I find it is rather uncommon -- the more laissez faire model which says that content is essentially public domain as soon as it leaves your network seems more common at a percentage level. Which of course puts this solidly in the realm of the cultural divide surrounding DRM, and say, MP3 distribution. Note: I'm not interested in arguing the validity of one side or the other, just observing the fact of the different.. The topic is important and interesting to be sure, especially if, like Chuq, you have questions of corporate asset, legal liability, and shareholder interest to protect, but most of the world, and in particular most of the list world, is not in that position. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 13:27:17 2002 Received: from pop2b.ripco.com (pop2b.ripco.com [209.100.227.27]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F31195AA0 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ord351473 (cpe-66-87-152-33.il.sprintbbd.net [66.87.152.33]) by pop2b.ripco.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g71KQic18453 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:26:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <005a01c23999$b268fe40$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> From: "David W. Tamkin" To: "list-managers" References: <23345.1028221186@kanga.nu><003501c2398c$ad3f32c0$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> Subject: Re: m.gmane.org Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:22:27 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Archive-Number: 200208/17 X-Sequence-Number: 645 Russ explained, | Based on my memory of that discussion, the official stance of the people | actually running gmane is "You can submit lists for archiving, and we | trust you not to do anything stupid. Submitting lists that don't want to | be archived is something stupid -- don't do that." If that's the case, then gmane management are not slinking around for lists to grab: they're just naïvely believing anyone who says "this list I know of wants you to archive it." So they're like a mailing list that accepts obviously forged subscriptions without confirmation. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 13:32:20 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB161959E7 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g71KTmO04125; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:29:52 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:30:06 -0700 Subject: Re: m.gmane.org From: Chuq Von Rospach To: J C Lawrence , JC Dill Cc: List Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <26577.1028232614@kanga.nu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/18 X-Sequence-Number: 646 On 8/1/02 1:10 PM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: > Among list owners its not a particularly uncommon view. However among > list users I find it is rather uncommon -- the more laissez faire model > which says that content is essentially public domain as soon as it > leaves your network seems more common at a percentage level. I don't disagree, but I think you're missing the point. It's not content. It's (sigh) spam. I don't think most users particularly care what kind of restrictions (or lack of them) are put on their postings. But if they get spammed by someone using an email address they tie back to your mail list, they're coming after you looking for your butt ina sling. Even if that leak was caused by a user subscribed on mac.com who forwards it to his hotmail address, which forwards it to his home computer, where he put it all on a web site so he could follow the list while he was on vacation for two weeks. It's still the list-mom's butt in a sling, until proven otherwise. Content access doesn't bother me a bit. Protecting the user's email address from abuse does. So for me, control of "outside" archives and gateways isn't a content issue -- I'm all for that, honestly -- but making sure that the user's email address doesn't leak. Any outside archive that can do that is a friend of mine. Any that doesn't is blacklisted. Period. Content issues come into it in some other ways (I have 'issues' with folks turning my content into their revenue stream without my permission, or at least without my getting a percentage), but in this case, it's the identify protection that drives it, not the "protection of content". My analogy is this. Think of the mailing list as community bulletin board. Users don't have (or shoudln't have) any expectation that a for-sale ad plopped on the cork board in the town square can be protected. At the same time, no user should feel they can't use the cork board because if they do, they start getting abusive phone calls at 3AM. I'm out watching for that 3am Perv, not the person taking stuff off the board and sticking it on a web site somewhere.... > The topic is important and interesting to be sure, especially if, like > Chuq, you have questions of corporate asset, legal liability, and > shareholder interest to protect, but most of the world, and in > particular most of the list world, is not in that position. And our legal interest is in protecting email addresses, not hoarding inforamtion. We actually want to distribute the information MORE widely, not less. But safely. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 13:57:42 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEBE1195F4D for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17aN0D-00075V-00 for ; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:56:57 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17aN0D-00075K-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:56:57 -0700 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: JC Dill , List Managers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:30:06 PDT." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:56:57 -0700 Message-ID: <27237.1028235417@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: chuqui@plaidworks.com, inet-list@vo.cnchost.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: Iz/Kmlk4vY4e2pC21JVEUWiQqB0 X-Archive-Number: 200208/19 X-Sequence-Number: 647 On Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:30:06 -0700 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 8/1/02 1:10 PM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: >> Among list owners its not a particularly uncommon view. However >> among list users I find it is rather uncommon -- the more laissez >> faire model which says that content is essentially public domain as >> soon as it leaves your network seems more common at a percentage >> level. > I don't disagree, but I think you're missing the point. > It's not content. To some it is, but I agree, not all. > It's (sigh) spam. Aye, there's that. I'm increasingly convinced of late that lists will be forced to obscure the addresses on the messages they send out TMDA-dated style. Its not a difficult engineering problem, its not even a particularly difficult SysAdm or community problem in doing this. It adds a possibly significant processing load (not storage) to the list host as he then needs to deal with (forward or discard) mail to such dated addresses, but that's not an impossible problem or load. The problem is in training the great unwashed to understand that addresses can be date limited. One of my next tasks is to see about reworking my web archives so that all email addresses on there are TMDA dated addresses with a time limit of 48hrs after the browser request to view the archive page. Its a little expensive on HTML generaion load, but its quite do-able. Note: GMane already (partially) offers this support. Next after that for me is to wedge-fit a TMDA-like filter under the exploder side of Mailman, processing headers and message bodies (but leaving Message-IDs alone). Bit of an interesting engineering problem there, but nothing impossible. Ahh, innit wonderful the way topics migrate from this list to mailman-developers and back again? -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 14:12:34 2002 Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.176.124.156]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5CE8195F1E for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toshiba.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D238C351E8 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:11:48 -0400 (EDT) X-America-Has-Resolve: yes X-Message-Flag: Microsoft Outlook is insecure. Upgrade your Mail Program Now! Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020801135525.26a69880@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:08:46 -0400 To: list-managers From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020801011523.03e5fa08@parrot-int.squawk.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6D703A51; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/20 X-Sequence-Number: 648 At 11:56 AM 2002-08-01 -0400, Charlie Summers wrote: > And of course, there are different ways for other mailing list servers. >But I'm curious to know if you perchance have copies of the original >subscription requests - if they are envelope-from gmane.org, there doesn't >seem to be any reason not to just REJECT their mail on the sendmail level >(other than the postmaster argument, which I'd maintain doesn't apply here >since I don't want to talk to these clowns AT ALL and it's my server/my >choice, can anyone think of a legitimate reason to accept mail from them?). Um, yes, I do. The subscribe came this way: From gchgc-calibers-l@gmane.org Sun Jul 28 15:31:24 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: majordomo-scifi.squawk.com@parrot.squawk.com The confirmation came this way From larsi@gnus.org Sun Jul 28 15:52:08 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: majordomo-scifi.squawk.com@parrot.squawk.com With this From: line: To: majordomo@scifi.squawk.com From: gchgc-calibers-l@m.gmane.org (Gmane Administrator) But I reserve those sendmail rejections for spammers. Yes, setting up an external archive without permission is net abuse, but it is not at the same level as spam, at least in my opinion. And, were I not able to get them off my lists by using a simple Mj2 rule, or, if for some reason, I had a policy that did not effectively forbid external archives and if I wanted to blow off the submissions from their server (because of the extra work they will entail), I'd definitely consider leaving them subscribed and blocking their server when it sent to my submission addresses (with postfix, I typically block spammers at the -request addresses, but not at the submission addresses, since those are dealt with without my intervention, so this would reverse that, and I do not block spammers at -owner\+.* addresses so that the bounces get through and I can get people on dead addresses unsubbed). -- "I support what Jim Brady is doing. There are so many dopes in this country that we should leave the guns just in the hands of the police and myself." -- Howard Stern Nick Simicich mailto:njs@scifi.squawk.com http://scifi.squawk.com/njs.html -- Stop by and Light Up The World! From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 14:14:54 2002 Received: from mail.wooz.org (unknown [66.93.82.39]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB711959E7 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.wooz.org (Postfix, from userid 889) id D6361D3812; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:14:06 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15689.42142.812254.367750@anthem.wooz.org> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:14:06 -0400 To: Charlie Summers Cc: list-managers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org References: X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) X-Attribution: BAW X-Oblique-Strategy: Accretion X-Url: http://barry.wooz.org X-Archive-Number: 200208/21 X-Sequence-Number: 649 >>>>> "CS" == Charlie Summers writes: CS> Add my humble thanks to his...this is looking as ugly as CS> mail-archive.com or findmail.com (at least the latter is out CS> of business). Anyone maintaining a list of these archivers? For a slightly contrarian view, I think it's kind of cool that they do this for our (very public) python.org lists. I've always thought that a non-expiring newsfeed provides a nicer interface for keeping up on high traffic, low-follow lists. But of course YLMV. -Barry From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 14:26:40 2002 Received: from mail.wooz.org (unknown [66.93.82.39]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB99195B3B for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.wooz.org (Postfix, from userid 889) id AD3DCD3812; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:25:53 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15689.42849.632663.703857@anthem.wooz.org> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:25:53 -0400 To: Charlie Summers Cc: J C Lawrence , list-managers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org References: X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) X-Attribution: BAW X-Oblique-Strategy: Flip a coin X-Url: http://barry.wooz.org X-Archive-Number: 200208/22 X-Sequence-Number: 650 >>>>> "CS" == Charlie Summers writes: >> GMane, mail-archive.com etc offer an extremely useful service >> for a great many lists which do not have external >> archiver/exploder policies (mail-archive for instance is my >> preferred tool for search the Linux Kernel and BugTraq lists). CS> I respectfully disagree. ANY archiver which allows CS> "subscription requests" to be sent by anyone, without the CS> express permission of the list owner, is engaged in theft. Of course, there's a difference between a subscription request and a grant of subscription. If list content, membership, and archive-ability are that sacred for a list (an obviously valid concern for some lists), then the ability to gain a feed worthy of archiving or gating has to be more tightly controlled. >>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence writes: JCL> There's a cultural divide here. Its similar to the cultural JCL> divide between the idea of a list-mom versus a list-owner. Very useful observation, JC! JCL> Which of course puts this solidly in the realm of the JCL> cultural divide surrounding DRM, and say, MP3 distribution. Except that here there's no uber-entity attempting to sue the whole technology out of existance just because it /can/ be used to violate someone's copyrights. Yet. -Barry From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 14:47:39 2002 Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 57B421959E7 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21537 invoked by uid 50); 1 Aug 2002 21:46:49 -0000 To: "list-managers" Subject: Re: m.gmane.org References: <23345.1028221186@kanga.nu> <003501c2398c$ad3f32c0$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> <005a01c23999$b268fe40$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> In-Reply-To: <005a01c23999$b268fe40$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> ("David W. Tamkin"'s message of "Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:22:27 -0500") From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:46:49 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090005 (Oort Gnus v0.05) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter, sparc-sun-solaris2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archive-Number: 200208/23 X-Sequence-Number: 651 David W Tamkin writes: > Russ explained, > | Based on my memory of that discussion, the official stance of the > | people actually running gmane is "You can submit lists for archiving, > | and we trust you not to do anything stupid. Submitting lists that > | don't want to be archived is something stupid -- don't do that." > If that's the case, then gmane management are not slinking around for > lists to grab: they're just na=EFvely believing anyone who says "this list > I know of wants you to archive it." So they're like a mailing list that > accepts obviously forged subscriptions without confirmation. Right, exactly. And given that the project started as a neat idea on the Gnus mailing list and the only people adding things to it at first were Gnus developers who can generally be trusted, it doesn't surprise me at all that there aren't adequate safeguards in place. Basically, I think the most likely explanation of the problems you all are encountering is that the project didn't scale all that well and now needs to have some security retrofitted onto it because there are now people adding lists who can't be trusted to have done their homework. --=20 Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 14:48:29 2002 Received: from glatton.cnchost.com (glatton.cnchost.com [207.155.248.47]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 712CD196077 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (adsl-208-201-244-240.sonic.net [208.201.244.240]) by glatton.cnchost.com id RAA25383; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:47:44 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20020801144050.03fc7370@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:45:08 -0700 To: List Managers From: JC Dill Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: References: <26577.1028232614@kanga.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/24 X-Sequence-Number: 652 On 01:30 PM 8/1/02, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >Content access doesn't bother me a bit. Protecting the user's email address >from abuse does. Exactly! > We actually want to distribute the information MORE widely, not >less. But safely. Yep. I'm quite frustrated at the number of lists I'm on that have leaked my email address thru badly setup archives, or due to letting subscribers setup their own archives, or due to people taking my posts (I'm honored they think I have something worth saving, but...) and plonking them up on the web, email address unmunged. I used to use a separate address for each and every mailing list so that I could track this and get the leaks fixed, but recently I've added so many lists that I let some "share" an address (like with this list). So now I can't always determine how my address got leaked and then go track it down. It's to the point that I'm going to have to setup a new domain name and migrate off this one, just to cut the spam down to a manageable level. jc From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 14:50:07 2002 Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 59F761960CE for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21560 invoked by uid 50); 1 Aug 2002 21:49:22 -0000 To: List Managers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org References: <27237.1028235417@kanga.nu> In-Reply-To: <27237.1028235417@kanga.nu> (J C Lawrence's message of "Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:56:57 -0700") From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:49:22 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090005 (Oort Gnus v0.05) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter, sparc-sun-solaris2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200208/25 X-Sequence-Number: 653 J C Lawrence writes: > Aye, there's that. I'm increasingly convinced of late that lists will > be forced to obscure the addresses on the messages they send out > TMDA-dated style. Its not a difficult engineering problem, its not even > a particularly difficult SysAdm or community problem in doing this. It > adds a possibly significant processing load (not storage) to the list > host as he then needs to deal with (forward or discard) mail to such > dated addresses, but that's not an impossible problem or load. The > problem is in training the great unwashed to understand that addresses > can be date limited. If you do implement this, it would be cool if you could make it a per-user option. My address is public. I want it that way. I use it in the mailto links on my web pages and I use it when posting to Usenet. I deal with the spam that results; I prefer to be accessible. I can wholeheartedly understand and support people who want to make other choices, but I personally strongly dislike TMDA-style addresses or constantly changing addresses for my own personal mailbox and don't want to suddenly discover that I've been assigned some by some mailing list that I'm posting to. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 15:52:03 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D862B195B2B for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g71MoBO21761; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:50:12 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:50:29 -0700 Subject: Re: m.gmane.org From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Russ Allbery , List Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/26 X-Sequence-Number: 654 On 8/1/02 2:49 PM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: > If you do implement this, it would be cool if you could make it a per-user > option. My address is public. I want it that way. I use it in the > mailto links on my web pages and I use it when posting to Usenet. I deal > with the spam that results; I prefer to be accessible. I do that, also. Whether it's user-choosable, I dunno. But one of the things that isn't currently being talked about (nor, I think, should it be) is cloaking content, like .sigs. So if it's in your .sig, it'll be public, no matter what the list server does. Would that be "good enough"? -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 15:54:41 2002 Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A5EC1959E7 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22094 invoked by uid 50); 1 Aug 2002 22:53:56 -0000 To: List Managers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org References: In-Reply-To: (Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:50:29 -0700") From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:53:56 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090005 (Oort Gnus v0.05) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter, sparc-sun-solaris2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200208/27 X-Sequence-Number: 655 Chuq Von Rospach writes: > I do that, also. Whether it's user-choosable, I dunno. But one of the > things that isn't currently being talked about (nor, I think, should it > be) is cloaking content, like .sigs. So if it's in your .sig, it'll be > public, no matter what the list server does. > Would that be "good enough"? If mail from me does not say: From: Russ Allbery and instead says something else, I'm going to be upset. I don't mind munging on web archives; that's not the primary presentation of the mail and isn't where replies are generated from. But when the mail arrives in the mailbox of another user of the mailing list, I want the address in the regular mail headers of that message to be mine, not some other address that the mail server edited in for me. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 18:43:14 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70276195AE8 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] ([17.254.140.64]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g721eAO03553; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:40:10 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 18:40:27 -0700 Subject: Re: m.gmane.org From: Chuq Von Rospach To: , Paul Hoffman / IMC , Nick Simicich , list-managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/28 X-Sequence-Number: 656 Hi,m here's another response to let you know we STILL aren't planning to help you, not if you're pulling stunts like this. Hint: read the effing instructions or something. Or die. I don't care which. On 8/1/02 4:22 PM, "Ken Levinberg" wrote: > thanks for everyone in helping me find my way off this list...... > > > You get a big suck my left nut from me!!!!! > > > you guys like porn? I think i will be sending some good picts out next. > > > I know I am being an asshole but have asked several times to be taken off or > help on how to be taken off and only got 1 reply from some pompus creep. > > > Ken > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com > [mailto:list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com]On Behalf Of Paul Hoffman / > IMC > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 1:28 PM > To: Chuq Von Rospach; Nick Simicich; list-managers > Subject: Re: m.gmane.org > > > At 11:45 PM -0700 7/31/02, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >> Thanks for catcing this, nick. > > Ditto. It looks like they mass-subscribed to my lists in April based > on a scrape, not on actual user requests, since they subscribed to > some nearly-dead lists that have no traffic. > > --Paul Hoffman, Director > --Internet Mail Consortium > > > -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 19:07:23 2002 Received: from pat.uio.no (pat.uio.no [129.240.130.16]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 493E7195B7E for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 19:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stjorn.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.66.225]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #7) id 17aRps-0001lu-00; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 04:06:36 +0200 Received: from localhost (thomas@localhost) by stjorn.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 04:06:35 +0200 (MEST) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 04:06:35 +0200 (MEST) From: Thomas Gramstad Reply-To: Thomas Gramstad To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Contact-Me-Info: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/ X-My-Lists: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lists/ X-Best-Listserver: Majordomo 2 - http://csf.colorado.edu/mj/ X-Post-Objectivism: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/po/articles.html X-Amazons-Ring: http://H.webring.com/hub?ring=amazonsinternati X-Grrl: I love Janice X-For-Media: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/pix/ X-Bli-Med-I-EFN: http://www.efn.no/ X-Boktips: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lister/amasoner-bok.html X-ena: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lister/xena.html X-en-Buddhism: Clap one hand now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/29 X-Sequence-Number: 657 On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Russ Allbery wrote: > Have you talked to the gmane folks? This is a pet project of Lars > Ingebrigtsen, the author of Gnus and one of the coolest people that > I know on-line anywhere. I'm quite sure he's not trying to make > life hard for anyone and would be happy to change policies to fix > whatever problems you encounter. I'm guessing it was just an > oversight, or like Chuq said, that they weren't able to find where > it was published that your lists shouldn't be externally archived. No -- their official policy is that if a list is open for subscription (anyone can sign up, without having to be approved by the list-owner), then they feel that it is a public list and they can include it at gmane.org without asking. In other words, they confuse subscription mode with availability of archives, subscriber list etc. Thomas Gramstad thomas@ifi.uio.no From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 19:09:58 2002 Received: from above.proper.com (mail.proper.com [208.184.76.45]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E988E195AFF for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 19:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [165.227.249.18] (165-227-249-18.client.dsl.net [165.227.249.18]) by above.proper.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g7228rw22887; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 19:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 19:08:51 -0700 To: Chuq Von Rospach , , Nick Simicich , list-managers From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: m.gmane.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Archive-Number: 200208/30 X-Sequence-Number: 658 At 6:40 PM -0700 8/1/02, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >Hi,m here's another response to let you know we STILL aren't planning to >help you, not if you're pulling stunts like this. What you mean "we", Kimosabe? I sent him instructions because I felt like it. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 21:16:24 2002 Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BAA34195ABB for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 21:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 23897 invoked by uid 50); 2 Aug 2002 04:15:39 -0000 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: m.gmane.org References: In-Reply-To: (Thomas Gramstad's message of "Fri, 2 Aug 2002 04:06:35 +0200 (MEST)") From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 21:15:38 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 35 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090005 (Oort Gnus v0.05) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter, sparc-sun-solaris2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200208/31 X-Sequence-Number: 659 Thomas Gramstad writes: > On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Russ Allbery wrote: >> Have you talked to the gmane folks? This is a pet project of Lars >> Ingebrigtsen, the author of Gnus and one of the coolest people that I >> know on-line anywhere. I'm quite sure he's not trying to make life >> hard for anyone and would be happy to change policies to fix whatever >> problems you encounter. I'm guessing it was just an oversight, or like >> Chuq said, that they weren't able to find where it was published that >> your lists shouldn't be externally archived. > No -- their official policy is that if a list is open for subscription > (anyone can sign up, without having to be approved by the list-owner), > then they feel that it is a public list and they can include it at > gmane.org without asking. In other words, they confuse subscription > mode with availability of archives, subscriber list etc. Here's the page that actually states the policies: Basically, they won't archive any list that doesn't want to be archived, but if the list is open for subscription, the list owner has to either notice the subscription message or opt out. Hm. Yeah, I think Lars hasn't thought hard enough about this. He's a smart guy, though, and quite willing to work with people, so maybe someone here who runs a list with public subscription but that they don't consider public should try to explain their point of view. (I consider all lists that I run with public subscription to be public lists exactly as described on that page, so I'm not of any help there.) -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 21:47:39 2002 Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A84C195F0B for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 21:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 24-205-154-98.riv-res.charterpipeline.net ([24.205.154.98] helo=lehel.goldmark.private) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aUKv-0003eo-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 21:46:49 -0700 Received: from jeffrey (helo=localhost) by lehel.goldmark.private with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 17aULO-0001VC-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 21:47:18 -0700 Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 21:47:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-X-Sender: jeffrey@lehel.goldmark.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/32 X-Sequence-Number: 660 On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Russ Allbery wrote: > Basically, they won't archive any list that doesn't want to be archived, > but if the list is open for subscription, the list owner has to either > notice the subscription message or opt out. That makes sense. Either the list owner pays attention to who subscribes or doesn't. As a list member, I know that anyone or anything can be lurking on most lists. I really don't see a problem here. > Hm. Yeah, I think Lars hasn't thought hard enough about this. He's a > smart guy, though, and quite willing to work with people, so maybe someone > here who runs a list with public subscription but that they don't consider > public should try to explain their point of view. And maybe we should take this discussion to gmane.discuss. > (I consider all lists that I run with public subscription to be public > lists exactly as described on that page, so I'm not of any help there.) Me, too. Indeed, I've been "nominating" the lists I manage to gmane since this discussion came up. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 22:19:36 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAAC8195F48 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g725HuV16132; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:17:56 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:17:25 -0700 Subject: Re: m.gmane.org From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Jeffrey Goldberg , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/33 X-Sequence-Number: 661 >> Basically, they won't archive any list that doesn't want to be archived, >> but if the list is open for subscription, the list owner has to either >> notice the subscription message or opt out. > > That makes sense. Either the list owner pays attention to who subscribes > or doesn't. As a list member, I know that anyone or anything can be > lurking on most lists. I really don't see a problem here. I do. My big site has 50+ lists. It generates a good number of subscribes a day. My list rules specifically state not to externally archive any mailing list without my explicit approval. So -- why do I then have to watch the subscriptions, happen to notice a series of subscriptions that imply a site is subscribing to my lists, and then track them down and see whether or not they're following my rules? It is the responsibility of the admin to make their rules clear. It is the responsibility of the person taking this archival action to abide by those rules. It's not my responsibility as admin to notice them doing this and the go tell them to cut it out -- unless they don't feel what I want done is important or worth paying attention to. And if they have that attitude, they'll end up getting treated as spam harvesters, since that's how they're acting. If my list rules DON'T tell them what they can and can't do, my bad. If it does and they expect me to notice and stop them, their bad. Seems pretty straightforward. If you ignore my list rules, I'll assume it's because you don't feel they apply, not that you feel I should have to track them down and hand them to you personally. >> (I consider all lists that I run with public subscription to be public >> lists exactly as described on that page, so I'm not of any help there.) > > Me, too. Indeed, I've been "nominating" the lists I manage to gmane since > this discussion came up. "public" is not enough. You also need to evaluate whether the usage restrictions set on that list (if any) are compatible with gmane, also. My subscribe page points to the list rules. My welcome message does, also. Seems to me that ought to be enough to cause someone to check them to see if what they're doing is acceptable to me. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 22:21:02 2002 Received: from pat.uio.no (pat.uio.no [129.240.130.16]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79351196096 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stjorn.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.66.225]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #7) id 17aUrI-0000zP-00; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:20:16 +0200 Received: from localhost (thomas@localhost) by stjorn.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:20:15 +0200 (MEST) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:20:15 +0200 (MEST) From: Thomas Gramstad Reply-To: Thomas Gramstad To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Contact-Me-Info: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/ X-My-Lists: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lists/ X-Best-Listserver: Majordomo 2 - http://csf.colorado.edu/mj/ X-Post-Objectivism: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/po/articles.html X-Amazons-Ring: http://H.webring.com/hub?ring=amazonsinternati X-Grrl: I love Janice X-For-Media: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/pix/ X-Bli-Med-I-EFN: http://www.efn.no/ X-Boktips: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lister/amasoner-bok.html X-ena: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lister/xena.html X-en-Buddhism: Clap one hand now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/34 X-Sequence-Number: 662 On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Jeffrey Goldberg wrote: > On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Russ Allbery wrote: >> Basically, they won't archive any list that doesn't want to be >> archived, but if the list is open for subscription, the list >> owner has to either notice the subscription message or opt out. > That makes sense. Either the list owner pays attention to who > subscribes or doesn't. As a list member, I know that anyone or > anything can be lurking on most lists. I really don't see a > problem here. I disagree. Most list-owners by default doesn't pay attention to who subscribes because the default setting of the "notify-list-owner of subscriptions-and-unsubscriptions" setting is set to no; that includes Mailman and many other listservers. So it takes an active effort, choice and knowledge about the listserver on the list-owner's part just to be able to receive the notifications. 95 % of list-owners just go with the default settings when they create a list. Because of the default settings, paying attention to subscriptions is "going against the grain", and since only a small minority will go against the grain, the end result is a license to hijack lists. >> Hm. Yeah, I think Lars hasn't thought hard enough about this. >> He's a smart guy, though, and quite willing to work with >> people, so maybe someone here who runs a list with public >> subscription but that they don't consider public should try to >> explain their point of view. > And maybe we should take this discussion to gmane.discuss. Forwarding is OK with me. >> (I consider all lists that I run with public subscription to be >> public lists exactly as described on that page, so I'm not of >> any help there.) > Me, too. Well, I don't. Two of my lists have voted against public archives even though the subscription mode for both lists is open. Concern about spam-harvesting of addresses is one concern, but not the only one. The list members feel that they are a community, and that access to the community should at least require the minimum effort of being a member of the community (even if a passive/lurking one). Also: Why should a list-owner have to manually approve every subscription just to avoid public archiving? Incidentally, there is no such thing as a "public subscription", unless you regularly or automatically post a log of all your subscriptions to a public web page or newsgroup. Thomas Gramstad thomas@ifi.uio.no From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 22:39:39 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E7C195F36 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17aV9J-00087t-00 for ; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:38:53 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17aV9I-00087k-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:38:52 -0700 To: Russ Allbery Cc: List Managers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: Message from Russ Allbery of "Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:49:22 PDT." References: <27237.1028235417@kanga.nu> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:38:52 -0700 Message-ID: <31231.1028266732@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: rra@stanford.edu, List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: 8d1RnlGYEQPR3MH2aXOqvyGr9NQ X-Archive-Number: 200208/35 X-Sequence-Number: 663 On Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:49:22 -0700 Russ Allbery wrote: > If you do implement this, it would be cool if you could make it a > per-user option. My address is public. I want it that way. I use it > in the mailto links on my web pages and I use it when posting to > Usenet. I deal with the spam that results; I prefer to be accessible. I'm similar in that regard. Making it optional is a complexity that I suspect I'll skin in 1.0 just because it is a complexity. Once the system is working, and with Mailman 2.1's external membership roster support, it should/would be fairly trivial to make it optional at that level. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 22:41:38 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC588195ACD for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17aVBD-00088O-00 for ; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:40:51 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17aVBD-00088D-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:40:51 -0700 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Russ Allbery , List Managers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:50:29 PDT." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:40:51 -0700 Message-ID: <31260.1028266851@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: chuqui@plaidworks.com, rra@stanford.edu, List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: zeIuG/xkoXSijqqKDCveNYztBKs X-Archive-Number: 200208/36 X-Sequence-Number: 664 On Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:50:29 -0700 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > But one of the things that isn't currently being talked about (nor, I > think, should it be) is cloaking content, like .sigs. So if it's in > your .sig, it'll be public, no matter what the list server does. My intent and prior statements on this regard are that I'd check for addresses in headers and message bodies. While it would be easy to make an explicit exception for addresses in ..signatures, what I want to avoid is the harvesting of a (comparative) innocent just because somebody else quoted his address in a web archived email. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 22:54:01 2002 Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 312E1195FF3 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 24-205-154-98.riv-res.charterpipeline.net ([24.205.154.98] helo=lehel.goldmark.private) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aVND-0007hm-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:53:16 -0700 Received: from jeffrey (helo=localhost) by lehel.goldmark.private with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 17aVNg-0001WM-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:53:44 -0700 Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:53:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-X-Sender: jeffrey@lehel.goldmark.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/37 X-Sequence-Number: 665 On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > [...] My list rules specifically state not to externally archive any > mailing list without my explicit approval. Umm. Fair point. You should expect that subscribers follow your rules, but with gmane, it may be that no human is actually reading the rules. And list opt-out just isn't fair. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 22:58:40 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (lofcom.com [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41F8195ACD for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (lof@chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA24671; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 01:57:44 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 01:58:53 -0400 To: Chuq Von Rospach , List Managers Mailing list From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org X-Archive-Number: 200208/38 X-Sequence-Number: 666 At 1:17 AM -0400 8/2/02, Chuq Von Rospach is rumored to have typed: > If my list rules DON'T tell them what they can and can't do, my bad. I'm not certain I buy that argument. If you go on vacation to Yellowstone and post photos from your trip onto your personal web page, and I want to use one of those photos on my pages about geisers, I don't just take it because you don't post a "Please do not steal these photos" disclaimer on your page. It is expected that I would ask permission before using your material. Forget copyright - it's just the polite and proper thing to do. I don't have a sign on the front lawn saying, "Do not break into this house while I'm gone," yet that doesn't prevent a break-in from being treated as improper. I don't need to list on signage what may and may not be done with my property; if it isn't yours, ask first. But here the assumption appears to be, "if I may subscribe to a list, I may do whatever I d*mned well choose to do with that list," and it's the responsibility of the listowner to spell out in graphic detail what may and may not be done with that list's information. I'd argue that, regardless of the legalities (which lord only knows could get _really_ muddled depending on the type of list, etc.), it's just plain impolite for someone to archive, post, and gateway someone's list without asking permission first, no matter how cool the technology (although I don't quite understand the coolness factor here, since this has all been done before anyway). All of the other reasons seem insignificant next to the complete lack of netiquette in these archivers' missions. Seems to me the _only_ think they'd need to do to have everyone here completely on-board is to set up a system of permission-based archiving/gatewaying/whatever. Those listmasters who wished to have their lists archived could do so by a simple confirmation; those who didn't would need do nothing to keep these robots out. And those who feel the pressing need to put everything to the list membership for discussion and decision-making could do that as well..._everyone_ would be happy, or at least everyone who's contributed so far to this discussion (I haven't seen anyone yet who suggested that asking the listmaster's permission is a _bad_ thing). All of the reasons and rationals, for or against, would apparently be satisfied by this one simple change of mindset and mission. Charlie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 23:21:35 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E1CA195F6A for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g726KIV16838; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:20:18 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 23:20:12 -0700 Subject: Re: m.gmane.org From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Jeffrey Goldberg , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/39 X-Sequence-Number: 667 > Umm. Fair point. You should expect that subscribers follow your > rules, but with gmane, it may be that no human is actually reading the > rules. And list opt-out just isn't fair. Someone has to make sure they're following the rules. If that means a human verifies the list rules, a human verifies the list rules. And if you can't trust the users, that means someone you trust has to do a check to make sure. Is it a bit of a hassle? Yeah. But who does this benefit, and so should bear the burden of the hassle? -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ IMHO: Jargon. Acronym for In My Humble Opinion. Used to flag as an opinion something that is clearly from context an opinion to everyone except the mentally dense. Opinions flagged by IMHO are actually rarely humble. IMHO. (source: third unabridged dictionary of chuqui-isms). From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 1 23:32:37 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF6FA195ABC for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g726VWV16963; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:31:32 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 23:31:26 -0700 Subject: Re: m.gmane.org From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Charlie Summers , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/40 X-Sequence-Number: 668 On 8/1/02 10:58 PM, "Charlie Summers" wrote: > At 1:17 AM -0400 8/2/02, Chuq Von Rospach is rumored to have typed: > >> If my list rules DON'T tell them what they can and can't do, my bad. > > I'm not certain I buy that argument. It's probably arguable. My stuff usually is.. (giggle) >If you go on vacation to Yellowstone > and post photos from your trip onto your personal web page, and I want to use > one of those photos on my pages about geisers, I don't just take it because > you don't post a "Please do not steal these photos" disclaimer on your page. Okay, here's where I think we disconnect. If I don't put up a set of rules on using my photos, then what you say is exactly right. On the other hand, if I DO put up a list of rules, I feel it's safe for you to assume that there are no hidden rules. So if I do post rules, and you're not violating them, why should you ask anyway? Now, there are going to be ambiguities where you aren't sure and need to ask, but if I post that you can't use my photos without giving me credit and can't use them for commercial purposes, if you meet those criteria, I don't see why you need to ask. Now, a courtesy call is always nice, but that I've put up a page explaining usage indicates I'm saying you don't need to, because I'm setting up the agreement upfront. If you agree to it, go ahead and use it... > I don't have a sign on the front lawn saying, "Do not break into this > house while I'm gone," yet that doesn't prevent a break-in from being treated > as improper. But that's a "no rules" case. I'm actually talking about a case where rules exist. > But here the assumption appears to be, "if I may subscribe to a list, I > may do whatever I d*mned well choose to do with that list," Which is a different case at all. Back to your sign on the front lawn, which now says "do not disturb". If the sign doesn't exist, the person has no way to know you don't want to be disturbed, so it's rather tough to yell at them when they knock. Assuming the sign exists, The good case is someone who sees the sign and doesn't disturb you. The spammer case is where they blow by the sign, pound on the door, and stuff a gag in your mouth so you can't interrupt their sales pitch. Gmane's position seems to be, on the other hand, to go up and knock on the door, because they didn't bother to read the sign, assuming that if you really didn't want to be disturbed, you'd notice the knock, come down, open the door, and tell them. And they seem to expect you to be polite about it... (grin) > I'd argue that, regardless of > the legalities (which lord only knows could get _really_ muddled depending on > the type of list, etc.), it's just plain impolite for someone to archive, > post, and gateway someone's list without asking permission first, no matter > how cool the technology (although I don't quite understand the coolness > factor here, since this has all been done before anyway). > I dunno. If I put up another sign on that yard, one that says "free peaches", and it's next to a table with peaches on it, I think I'm saying that you can take the peaches, not that you need to come up to the door, knock, and ask if it's okay to take some peaches. On the other hand, "free peaches" doesn't imply you can crawl over the fence into the backyard and use the hot tub before stripping the apple tree clean... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ He doesn't have ulcers, but he's a carrier. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 2 04:53:34 2002 Received: from mail.rev.net (server02.rev.net [206.67.68.98]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F5AD195AB1 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 04:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fantasy (cosell.gva.net [65.164.103.253]) by mail.rev.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g72BqiI29859 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:52:44 -0400 Message-Id: <200208021152.g72BqiI29859@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: List Managers Mailing list Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:52:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.3.1(snapshot 20020108) (server02.rev.net) X-Archived: msg.1028289164.jBDXih@server02.rev.net X-Archive-Number: 200208/41 X-Sequence-Number: 669 On 1 Aug 2002, at 22:17, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > >> Basically, they won't archive any list that doesn't want to be archived, > >> but if the list is open for subscription, the list owner has to either > >> notice the subscription message or opt out. > > > > That makes sense. Either the list owner pays attention to who subscribes > > or doesn't. As a list member, I know that anyone or anything can be > > lurking on most lists. I really don't see a problem here. > > I do. My big site has 50+ lists. It generates a good number of subscribes a > day. My list rules specifically state not to externally archive any mailing > list without my explicit approval. Why do you do this? I've been following this discussion and, like Russ, I don't understand this aspect of it. If the purpose of the (public) list is to disseminate information, why do you care if it happens in one mail-delivery step or two? If the list has public archives, why do you care that there is only one URL to the archives instead of two? I must be missing something here... I can remember, years and years ago, when I set up a 'repeater' for unix-wizards. Neither then, nor now as a matter of fact, would it have occurred to me that it would be improper for me to have done that. Indeed, back then it was considered something of a good deed -- it decreased the load on the originating server, because they sent us just one copy and we routed out the thirty internal copies, and we took care of our internal adds/deletes/bounces, etc. We also kept an archive of it; we didn't know or care if other folk were archiving the list (and they probably were), but again, it didn't seem like it was something we needed to ask about. This feels like the discussions that arise on usenet some times when folk discover [apparently to their surprise] that servers do *NOT* have to honor cancels or expirations and there's no obligation on the part of ANY usenet server to delete anything, ever, no matter what you put into the message. I know you're technically savvy enough to get the 'defintions' right, but it is an awfully gray area, it seems to me, and one I don't see why you're worrying about If I just file away everything from your list into a folder and never delete anything, is that an 'archive'? Does it become an archive if I allow a colleague to paw through that folder using a web interface to our IMAP server? Am I violating the rules if I forward interesting articles from the list to colleagues [basically, I act like a very very very smart Eudora-filter, auto-killing threads I know the particular recipients won't be interested in andy only pass through stuff I DO know they'll care about]. Why BOTHER getting into that sort of mess and hair splitting?? > It is the responsibility of the admin to make their rules clear. .. No problem there -- my inquiry isn't whether it is proper or not to violate your rules [nor, indeed, to quibble about your prerogative to make silly rules if you choose to], but what *purpose* you think having rules like that accomplishes... /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 2 06:25:52 2002 Received: from mail.wooz.org (unknown [66.93.82.39]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF85C195AE7 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 06:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.wooz.org (Postfix, from userid 889) id 988BDD3812; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:25:02 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15690.34862.411261.8954@anthem.wooz.org> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:25:02 -0400 To: J C Lawrence Cc: Chuq Von Rospach , JC Dill , List Managers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org References: <27237.1028235417@kanga.nu> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) X-Attribution: BAW X-Oblique-Strategy: Accept advice X-Url: http://barry.wooz.org X-Archive-Number: 200208/42 X-Sequence-Number: 670 >>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence writes: JCL> Ahh, innit wonderful the way topics migrate from this list JCL> to mailman-developers and back again? Yes, and it's a good thing. Consider yourselves prototypers for features to possibly add in the next version. :) -Barry From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 2 06:40:12 2002 Received: from mail.wooz.org (unknown [66.93.82.39]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A53BB195B17 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 06:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.wooz.org (Postfix, from userid 889) id 4DBCDD3812; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:39:13 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15690.35713.218579.872182@anthem.wooz.org> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:39:13 -0400 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Russ Allbery , List Managers Subject: Re: m.gmane.org References: X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) X-Attribution: BAW X-Oblique-Strategy: Abberations X-Url: http://barry.wooz.org X-Archive-Number: 200208/43 X-Sequence-Number: 671 >>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach writes: CVR> On 8/1/02 2:49 PM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: >> If you do implement this, it would be cool if you could make it >> a per-user option. My address is public. I want it that way. >> I use it in the mailto links on my web pages and I use it when >> posting to Usenet. I deal with the spam that results; I prefer >> to be accessible. CVR> I do that, also. Whether it's user-choosable, I dunno. But CVR> one of the things that isn't currently being talked about CVR> (nor, I think, should it be) is cloaking content, like CVR> .sigs. So if it's in your .sig, it'll be public, no matter CVR> what the list server does. I don't have too much of a problem with that. People put their contact information in their sigs because -- surprise -- they want to be contacted. I think we tread on more questionable grounds when we start munging content. CVR> Would that be "good enough"? OTOH (there's always a tangle of "other hands") content is a good place to get your address leaked by others, usually inadvertently or innocently. Check out the attribution above. I've just leaked Chuq's email address. Of course, if it had been munged on the exploder side, I would simply have leaked a munged address, but you're still vulnerable to leakage in content. -Barry From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 2 07:41:38 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15ACC195AAC for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g72EdrV22719; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:39:53 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 07:39:44 -0700 Subject: Re: m.gmane.org From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Bernie Cosell , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200208021152.g72BqiI29859@mail.rev.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/44 X-Sequence-Number: 672 On 8/2/02 4:52 AM, "Bernie Cosell" wrote: >> I do. My big site has 50+ lists. It generates a good number of subscribes a >> day. My list rules specifically state not to externally archive any mailing >> list without my explicit approval. > > Why do you do this? I've been following this discussion and, like Russ, > I don't understand this aspect of it. If the purpose of the (public) > list is to disseminate information, why do you care if it happens in one > mail-delivery step or two? Spam. I've had too many cases where someone's address was leaked to a spambot, and where it turned out I got yelled at because someone else put up nthe archive on a web site I didn't know about with no protection. So I restrict archives like this so I can get in the loop and make sure they have controls I consider appropriate (or be able to blacklist them if they refuse to cooperate) I've tried to set up a specific level of protection for my users. I can't do that if random people do random things outside of my control. This is my control point -- they don't get permission if they don't follow my policies. It's not a content issue -- it's a privacy issue. Or more correctly, a protection of a user's privacy issue. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ IMHO: Jargon. Acronym for In My Humble Opinion. Used to flag as an opinion something that is clearly from context an opinion to everyone except the mentally dense. Opinions flagged by IMHO are actually rarely humble. IMHO. (source: third unabridged dictionary of chuqui-isms). From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 2 08:16:07 2002 Received: from mail.rev.net (server02.rev.net [206.67.68.98]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33D00195AAC for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fantasy (cosell.gva.net [65.164.103.253]) by mail.rev.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g72FFHN06467 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:15:17 -0400 Message-Id: <200208021515.g72FFHN06467@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: List Managers Mailing list Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:15:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-reply-to: References: <200208021152.g72BqiI29859@mail.rev.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.3.1(snapshot 20020108) (server02.rev.net) X-Archived: msg.1028301317.yNtM3D@server02.rev.net X-Archive-Number: 200208/45 X-Sequence-Number: 673 On 2 Aug 2002, at 7:39, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 8/2/02 4:52 AM, "Bernie Cosell" wrote: > > >> I do. My big site has 50+ lists. It generates a good number of subscribes a > >> day. My list rules specifically state not to externally archive any mailing > >> list without my explicit approval. > > > > Why do you do this? I've been following this discussion and, like Russ, > > I don't understand this aspect of it. If the purpose of the (public) > > list is to disseminate information, why do you care if it happens in one > > mail-delivery step or two? > > Spam. I've had too many cases where someone's address was leaked to a > spambot, and where it turned out I got yelled at because someone else put up > nthe archive on a web site I didn't know about with no protection. I think we are in roaring agreement on this matter. That's why I tried to be careful to put *PUBLIC* whenever I mentioned relaying or archives. If you're running a *restricted* archive, then, obviously, you cannot permit list subscribers to run a less-restricted one. Similarly, if you manage addtitions to the list [so it is NOT completely-public-open-to- all], then obviously you can't let third-parties hide-subscribe addrs to your list. So I guess I hear the message, but I'd have expressed it differently: in this day and age, you can no longer have really 'public' lists, as we did back in the dark ages, and part of that is that listadministrors have to impose various restrictions on how both the listmembers and the public can use and access both the list and the archives, and part of *that* is not allowing listmembers to evade the restrictions [whatever they happen to be for YOUR list] by taking local actions. So I see that I need a perception adjustment... I'm still stuck in the past on some of these policy matters and haven't fully internalized the realities and necessities of the way things are now. [but I have to admit, that the transition from "list-administrator" to "list-owner" as a matter of actual policy and almost-property-rights, rather than just syntactic convenience, still sticks in my craw --- I figure I can set (and enforce) rules for a list as its *administrator* without having to make like I "own" the list] /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 2 08:39:22 2002 Received: from pop2b.ripco.com (pop2b.ripco.com [209.100.227.27]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E35195AAC for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ord351473 (cpe-66-87-152-33.il.sprintbbd.net [66.87.152.33]) by pop2b.ripco.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g72Fcpc10786 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:38:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <005201c23a3a$a0ea0280$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> From: "David W. Tamkin" To: "List Managers Mailing list" References: Subject: Re: m.gmane.org Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:36:34 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Archive-Number: 200208/46 X-Sequence-Number: 674 Jeffrey Goldberg wrote, | Indeed, I've been "nominating" the lists I manage to gmane since | this discussion came up. There's no problem when lists are nominated by their own managers. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 2 08:59:43 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37850195F64 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g72FwcV23929; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:58:38 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 08:58:32 -0700 Subject: Re: m.gmane.org From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Bernie Cosell , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200208021515.g72FFHN06467@mail.rev.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/47 X-Sequence-Number: 675 On 8/2/02 8:15 AM, "Bernie Cosell" wrote: > I think we are in roaring agreement on this matter. That's why I tried > to be careful to put *PUBLIC* whenever I mentioned relaying or archives. Or as some of my bosses like to say, we're in violent agreement (again) > If you're running a *restricted* archive, Unfortunately, I don't know how you can do anything else any more. Which creates another conflict, because that archive is a useful resource, so I feel it needs to be made as available as you can, but at the same time, the email addresses in it are a personal identifier that requires protection. From the POV of a mailing list, I think having the archives spidered by google and company are a very good thing -- branding and marketing stuff. Good content attracts good people. But that's where harvesting starts, too. So... > So I guess I hear the message, but I'd have expressed it differently: in > this day and age, you can no longer have really 'public' lists, as we did > back in the dark ages, Times have changed, and until we hunt down and kneecap all the script kiddies... Sigh. But yes, that's basically true. In Ray Bradbury's books, nobody locked a front door. Now, nobody talks to their neighbors. > impose various restrictions on how both the listmembers and the public > can use and access both the list and the archives, and part of *that* is > not allowing listmembers to evade the restrictions [whatever they happen > to be for YOUR list] by taking local actions. You have to do one of a few things: Not care and/or not try. And in some cases, that might be appropriate or acceptable. That's just Not Me. Restrict usage. But this creates other conflicts. And frankly, I've grown increasingly uncomfortable with the concept of the mailing list as armed refugee camp. I LIKE talking to my neighbors. But to date, it's been what we had available. Do Something Else. What we're bandying around at work is to basically "fix the archives", only in this case, we're sort of using fix in the "friendly veterinarian way". Rather than restrict usage of the archives, restrict what comes out of it, by dynamically cloaking the sensitive content as it leaves the system. Then, the only restriction we need to make is "you can't subscribe to the list and create your own PUBLIC archive". Which still doesn't solve gmane's "problem". So we're actually talking about whether it makes sense to create a "pre cloaked" feed of the lists, so anyone who wants to make an archive can subscribe to THAT archive, knowing it's "safe" as we define safe. In other words, if you use that feed, we're saying you'll never get in trouble with us, because we took responsibility for cleaning it up before it left the site. And that, I think, is where this needs to move. Back to technology, instead of permissions. And that means making sure that the data that leaves your site is in a form you can lose control over without getting stressed over it. Barry, JC and some others have been doing some noodling at integrating TMDA (an address obscuring and whitelisting tool) into Mailman. The idea being that even addresses coming from the server are obscured (except for russ') and replies to a user go through the list server and the whitelist. That basically puts the server in charge of ALL interactions between list users, although users can choose to drop out of the system, obviously. But it means that you no longer have to try to control content after it leaves the server. It's safe. That has it's own challenges, but at least it opens up lists into more of a "welcome, boys!" place again, instead of the increasingly paranoid, closed circles I think we're being forced into.... > So I see that I need a perception adjustment... I'm still stuck in the > past on some of these policy matters and haven't fully internalized the > realities and necessities of the way things are now. As we all are. Most of this is stuff that had no real visibility two years ago. Or even a year ago. It wasn't too long ago folks thought I was crazy for password protecting email archives (some probably still think so...) But, you know? I remember when we thought nothing of putting home addresses and phone numbers in messages. I remember a time when I would post "party at my place" messages to net.general, and we'd get together and party. Can you imagine the riot that'd happen now? It's just more of the exploration into how to be available and in contact, but still be able to manage your privacy. I expect we'll be working that issue for years to come. It's funny, though, how a little privacy well placed makes it a lot easier to be public and accessible. Seems counter-intuitive, but it looks to be true. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 2 09:28:12 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8FAD195F88 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 09:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17afGw-0007oX-00 for ; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 09:27:26 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17afGv-0007oM-00; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 09:27:25 -0700 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Bernie Cosell , List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Fri, 02 Aug 2002 08:58:32 PDT." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 09:27:25 -0700 Message-ID: <30029.1028305645@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: chuqui@plaidworks.com, bernie@fantasyfarm.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: xgMXdGxvSalncd+LDm5ffG+sLvo X-Archive-Number: 200208/48 X-Sequence-Number: 676 On Fri, 02 Aug 2002 08:58:32 -0700 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Barry, JC and some others have been doing some noodling at integrating > TMDA (an address obscuring and whitelisting tool) into Mailman. ... > That has it's own challenges, but at least it opens up lists into more > of a "welcome, boys!" place again, instead of the increasingly > paranoid, closed circles I think we're being forced into.... That's the huge attraction for me. While I don't internally phrase it as the Ghaza strip you referenced in your mailman-developers post, the idea that by using TMDA on the inbound side of lists we can: -- largely return mailing lists to the open-no-subscription required model of the 1980's and before and by putting a TMDA-like system on the outbound side can: -- largely return can largely validate and securely implement the "once it leaves my network its public domain" model that recurs so often. Even without creating Russ-exceptions (and as a user I agree with his requests for non-munging) they would seem a pretty significant change from the current common practice of mailing lists. Heck, just sticking TMDA in front of a list (as I've just done for Mailman, details on how to access my test setup available by off-list request) is quite a forward leap (especially in the regard of separating posting rights from subscription status). -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 2 19:14:17 2002 Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.176.124.156]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7DA4195AFD for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 19:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toshiba.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72BDC351F1 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:13:27 -0400 (EDT) X-America-Has-Resolve: yes X-Message-Flag: Microsoft Outlook is insecure. Upgrade your Mail Program Now! Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020802210603.045e5760@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 21:08:02 -0400 To: list-managers From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4D286885; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/49 X-Sequence-Number: 677 At 11:11 AM 2002-08-01 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: >Why does everyone always have to be so confrontational and aggressive >about things rather than assuming good will on the part of other people >for at least the first pass? I sort of felt like they should have asked. I would have told them no, nicely. The fact that they simply signed themselves up to archive my lists bothered me a lot. As to the peach analogy, supposing I bring a bring a box of peaches to the office and I put up a sign, "Free Peaches, Take one" and you want to take a bunch home to your kids. If you want to take the whole box, you ask. That is more or less the right analogy: I have a service which is designed to be used in a certain way. If someone subscribes to every list in my domain, I get suspicious. I worry that they are simply harvesting e-mail addresses. I consider that net abuse, because I expect individuals who are interested in my lists to subscribe, not e-mail harversters, archivers, or the like. -- I always thought a gentleman was supposed to lie about such things. Nick Simicich mailto:njs@scifi.squawk.com http://scifi.squawk.com/njs.html -- Stop by and Light Up The World! From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sun Aug 4 10:44:19 2002 Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [207.192.128.31]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E84B2195AC3 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 10:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g74HgWJU012706; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 13:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 13:42:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Beartooth X-X-Sender: karhunhammas@saltmine.radix.net Reply-To: KHLsv To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Bernie Cosell , List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/50 X-Sequence-Number: 678 On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > Sigh. But yes, that's basically true. In Ray Bradbury's books, > nobody locked a front door. Now, nobody talks to their neighbors. (snip) > You have to do one of a few things: > > Not care and/or not try. And in some cases, that might be > appropriate or acceptable. That's just Not Me. > > Restrict usage. But this creates other conflicts. And frankly, > I've grown increasingly uncomfortable with the concept of the > mailing list as armed refugee camp. I LIKE talking to my > neighbors. But to date, it's been what we had available. I know usenet groups are now sometimes auto-restricted by provider, and doubtless in other ways -- and at times "leak" out anyway. (bburg.general, which is supposed to be available only in the vicinity of Blacksburg, VA, is on Verizon.net's list of All Groups, and used to be (probably still is) on Earthlink's.) What about real lists? Are auto-restrictions common? Do they mostly work off the would-be subscriber's address, or ....? > Do Something Else. What we're bandying around at work is to basically "fix > the archives", only in this case, we're sort of using fix in the "friendly > veterinarian way". Rather than restrict usage of the archives, restrict what > comes out of it, i.e., do a vasectomy instead of a castration? Only you're adding a filter, really, rather than removing or disconnecting anything -- IF I understand you .... > by dynamically cloaking the sensitive content as it leaves the > system. Then, the only restriction we need to make is "you can't > subscribe to the list and create your own PUBLIC archive". Which > still doesn't solve gmane's "problem". So we're actually talking > about whether it makes sense to create a "pre cloaked" feed of > the lists, so anyone who wants to make an archive can subscribe > to THAT archive, knowing it's "safe" as we define safe. In other > words, if you use that feed, we're saying you'll never get in > trouble with us, because we took responsibility for cleaning it > up before it left the site. > > And that, I think, is where this needs to move. Back to > technology, instead of permissions. And that means making sure > that the data that leaves your site is in a form you can lose > control over without getting stressed over it. Supposing such a form exists. There is a poem somewhere called The Omelette of A MacLeish -- which ends with MacL doomed to go on doctoring his omelette forever .... > Barry, JC and some others have been doing some noodling at > integrating TMDA (an address obscuring and whitelisting tool) > into Mailman. The idea being that even addresses coming from the > server are obscured (except for russ') and replies to a user go > through the list server and the whitelist. That basically puts > the server in charge of ALL interactions between list users, > although users can choose to drop out of the system, obviously. > But it means that you no longer have to try to control content > after it leaves the server. It's safe. You're providing a guarded stage, or one behind a polycarbonate shield : those who wish can hold their dialog for anyone interested to hear, and yet be safe from rotten eggs -- and oil of vitriol. A good thing if do-able. > That has it's own challenges, but at least it opens up lists into > more of a "welcome, boys!" place again, instead of the > increasingly paranoid, closed circles I think we're being forced > into.... CP Snow in his late years bemoaned the fact that all of the "first world" even then was withdrawing into enclaves, as he called them -- fenced a/o guarded enclaves. I have a hunch population density is relevant : physical in the case of the gated communities, electronic online. Incidentally, there's also another form of electronic enclave, the private list. My favorite is one, and Forbes magazine had an article maybe three years ago about the proliferation of such. > > So I see that I need a perception adjustment... I'm still stuck > > in the past on some of these policy matters and haven't fully > > internalized the realities and necessities of the way things > > are now. > > As we all are. Most of this is stuff that had no real visibility > two years ago. Or even a year ago. It wasn't too long ago folks > thought I was crazy for password protecting email archives (some > probably still think so...) > > But, you know? I remember when we thought nothing of putting home > addresses and phone numbers in messages. A friend who teaches Old Testament at a local college has all that in her .sig -- and refuses to consider suggestions that she remove it, even now .... > It's just more of the exploration into how to be available and in > contact, but still be able to manage your privacy. I expect we'll > be working that issue for years to come. It's funny, though, how > a little privacy well placed makes it a lot easier to be public > and accessible. Seems counter-intuitive, but it looks to be true. Again, my hunch is that it's a function of population density. -- Beartooth the Stubborn , double retiree, linux hatchling w/ RH 7.2; ssh'd (DSL) to pine 4.43 on ISP's SunOS 5.8; Opera 6.02, Pan 0.11.2, Galeon 1.2.5, & Mozilla 1.0 Neo-Redneck, Weird by Nature -- and with Gusto! From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sun Aug 4 11:01:12 2002 Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [207.192.128.31]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A622195AC3 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 11:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g74I0QJU014488 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:00:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:00:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Beartooth X-X-Sender: karhunhammas@saltmine.radix.net Reply-To: KHLsv To: List Managers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/51 X-Sequence-Number: 679 Bernie Cosell muttered through clenched teeth: > [but I have to admit, that the transition from > "list-administrator" to "list-owner" as a matter of actual policy > and almost-property-rights, rather than just syntactic > convenience, still sticks in my craw --- I figure I can set (and > enforce) rules for a list as its *administrator* without having > to make like I "own" the list] One would hope so. Otoh, one private list I'm subscribed to was created precisely in order to have a forum for things that couldn't be mentioned, on the usenet group we founders had met on, without igniting a flame war. (We even put a footer on every message, saying: > To unsubscribe, send a message to [the moderator] or breach the > canons of civility that govern our interchange in this group.) When it does nevertheless happen that two subscribers get a tad bit less civil than the rest like, the moderator is automatically roped in -- he usually volunteers -- to call time-out and suggest taking the topic under the Net. (It did get so bad, just once, that we kicked a member out. The moderator polled the other members on that decision, and on the terms under which he would be and eventually was allowed to subscribe again, and on the decision to take him back.) So there's a fine line for those to walk who recognize that power is evil, but that some things have to be done -- and it'll be a different line for every list and every walker, I guess. -- Beartooth the Stubborn , double retiree, linux hatchling w/ RH 7.2; ssh'd (DSL) to pine 4.43 on ISP's SunOS 5.8; Opera 6.02, Pan 0.11.2, Galeon 1.2.5, & Mozilla 1.0 Neo-Redneck, Weird by Nature -- and with Gusto! From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sun Aug 4 11:45:44 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B42E195F96 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 11:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g74IiNV32337; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 11:44:23 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 11:44:16 -0700 Subject: Re: m.gmane.org From: Chuq Von Rospach To: KHLsv Cc: Bernie Cosell , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/52 X-Sequence-Number: 680 On 8/4/02 10:42 AM, "Beartooth" wrote: > What about real lists? Are auto-restrictions common? Do > they mostly work off the would-be subscriber's address, or ....? Increasingly so. Usually, the only guaranteed identification we have for a person is the e-mail id. And so we're using that increasingly -- while it is becoming less reliable (because of the proliferation of vanity domains (like chuqui.com), and the increasing use of things like hotmail or mac.com as forwarding points. ID by email address works if you have one email address. When you have six... It gets complicated again. And that doesn't even get into the issues when people are wholesale moved from domain to domain (msn has changed customers email addresses three times now, or mediaone.net -> attbi.com, or the home.com shutdown debacle, So even that has problems... One 'solution' to that is to allow folks to subscribe an address, and then define "aliases" that are considered the same address to the mail list. The real answer, I guess, is the universal email address (and the universal phone number and the universal, follow-me postal address, and... ) -- and it creates issues of flexibility and privacy. Having multipe email addresses is good, it just makes things more complex. > i.e., do a vasectomy instead of a castration? Only > you're adding a filter, really, rather than removing or > disconnecting anything -- IF I understand you .... Yes, I don't like modifying my archives. So I'm effectively writing a filter. I don't see it as vasectomy as much as plastic surgery -- change the loook enough that the guys looking for you can't recognize you. I guess it's the mailing list witness protection program... >> that the data that leaves your site is in a form you can lose >> control over without getting stressed over it. > > Supposing such a form exists. The form exists. Is it a perfect form? No. Does it serve the purpose? I believe so. And I expect over time we'll likely improve it and/or change our attitudes somewhat (and that's the main reason I had modifying archives. It's only one policy decision reversal from being permanently broken) > You're providing a guarded stage, or one behind a > polycarbonate shield : those who wish can hold their dialog for > anyone interested to hear, and yet be safe from rotten eggs -- and > oil of vitriol. A good thing if do-able. Eggs and tomatoes I don't care about. But as you note, if you can throw an egg, you can throw a grenade.... And I care about grenades.... When it was just eggs, I was the first to say "if you can't handle the criticism, stay off the stage" --- especially to fellow egg-throwers. > them -- fenced a/o guarded enclaves. I have a hunch population > density is relevant : It is. You can see that in pretty much every on-line population. The transition from small and personal (rural) to big and impersonal (urban) has never been smooth, and never been good for the "crime statistics" of the population. Look at USENET today. It's about as urban as you'll find, and the core of that "city" is basically rotted out in a classic urban blight scenario. Now, some cities have found ways to renew and rebuild past the blight stage, so I assume it's possible for usenet, also. If the right people find the right approach. > Incidentally, there's also another form of electronic > enclave, the private list. The ultimate in gated communities -- the country club. That's not a criticsm, I run a number myself. If you want to feel better about it, call it a bridge club... (grin) >> But, you know? I remember when we thought nothing of putting home >> addresses and phone numbers in messages. > > A friend who teaches Old Testament at a local college has > all that in her .sig -- and refuses to consider suggestions that > she remove it, even now .... Well, good for her. May she never meet the person who makes her regret it. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Very funny, Scotty. Now beam my clothes down here, will you? From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sun Aug 4 12:34:54 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68AEE195F19 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17bR8i-00053Y-00 for ; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 12:34:08 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17bR8h-00053L-00; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 12:34:07 -0700 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: KHLsv , Bernie Cosell , List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Sun, 04 Aug 2002 11:44:16 PDT." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 12:34:07 -0700 Message-ID: <19426.1028489647@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: chuqui@plaidworks.com, karhunhammas@lserv.com, bernie@fantasyfarm.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: v34/92P523AAi8DWT1JRjIgdVwg X-Archive-Number: 200208/53 X-Sequence-Number: 681 On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 11:44:16 -0700 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I don't see it as vasectomy as much as plastic surgery -- change the > look enough that the guys looking for you can't recognize you. I guess > it's the mailing list witness protection program... I'm interested in lists as a way for individuals to communicate. I'm not particularly interested in groups communicating, or machines, just individuals. As such I'm interested in building systems which extend and specifically enhance the communications of individuals as unique from other forms. Given the current value of sold eyeballs and sold human attention, that means making communication systems which are resistant to mechanical parsing, to mechanical participation, and to mechanical manipulation __WITHOUT__ losing the basics of individual communication and participation. Mailing lists which, for whatever reason, allow spammers to post to them are not resistant to mechanical participation. Lists which are easy to harvest for email addresses for spammers are not resistant to mechanical parsing. Lists which do not have the equivalent of a Turing test at their gates are not resistant to mechanical participation or mechanical manipulation. Individuals are recognised on lists by GECOS field, by email address, by tone, by characteristic message formatting, by .signature, by all those things which make a human or are immediately derived from a human. Those, perforce have to be preserved by any individual-centric system. The rest can be washed. Building systems like TMDA-fronted lists with TMDA-like address munged broadcasts preserves most of that with the primary loss on the email address but loses on the email address side. Sustain the GECOS mapping and ensure that the email address mapping is a visible morph of the original makes the loss there less painful if not ideal. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sun Aug 4 23:19:40 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 142CF1959E9 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 23:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g756HwV09341 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 23:17:58 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 23:17:52 -0700 Subject: We have an echo... From: Chuq Von Rospach To: List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/54 X-Sequence-Number: 682 I *thought* I was seeing an echo on this list. When I post to the list and someone responds so my address is the "to", I end up getting a third copy of the message. The message is looping through an address in .ua, which seems to be broken and sending the message to the "to" line again. Can someone with admin on list-managers track down euag@raritet.com.ua and nuke it from the list? It's broke. (sample header....) Return-Path: Received: from raritet.com.ua (raritet.gu.kiev.ua [194.93.161.67]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g756AmV09252 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 23:10:50 -0700 Received: from raritet.com.ua [192.168.0.1] by raritet.com.ua [192.168.0.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v3.0.3.R) for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 09:05:36 +0300 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com (dsl081-251-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.251.250]) by raritet.gu.kiev.ua (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g74Inng28822 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 21:49:49 +0300 Received: from greatcircle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A372119603F; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68AEE195F19 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17bR8i-00053Y-00 for ; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 12:34:08 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17bR8h-00053L-00; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 12:34:07 -0700 To: Chuq Von Rospach CC: KHLsv , Bernie Cosell , List Managers Mailing list -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Very funny, Scotty. Now beam my clothes down here, will you? From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sun Aug 4 23:49:12 2002 Received: from penguin.postmodern.com (penguin.postmodern.com [216.240.39.2]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21249195ABF for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 23:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heathrow.postmodern.com ([209.50.29.152]) by penguin.postmodern.com (8.11.1/8.11.1-mcb-20001119) with ESMTP id g756mHQ08021; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 23:48:17 -0700 Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 01:48:12 -0500 Subject: Re: We have an echo... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) Cc: Chuq Von Rospach To: List Managers Mailing list From: "Michael C. Berch" In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <4FA94C6A-A83F-11D6-B8F6-003065F94B0A@postmodern.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) X-Archive-Number: 200208/55 X-Sequence-Number: 683 I removed the address. Oddly, it was not looping *everything*; I didn't get a second looped copy of things, unless they haven't arrived yet. I'll investigate in the morning. MCB -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com On Monday, August 5, 2002, at 01:17 AM, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I *thought* I was seeing an echo on this list. > > When I post to the list and someone responds so my address is the > "to", I > end up getting a third copy of the message. The message is looping > through > an address in .ua, which seems to be broken and sending the message to > the > "to" line again. > > Can someone with admin on list-managers track down euag@raritet.com.ua > and > nuke it from the list? It's broke. > > (sample header....) > > Return-Path: > Received: from raritet.com.ua (raritet.gu.kiev.ua [194.93.161.67]) > by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g756AmV09252 > for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 23:10:50 -0700 > Received: from raritet.com.ua [192.168.0.1] by raritet.com.ua > [192.168.0.1] > with SMTP (MDaemon.v3.0.3.R) > for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 09:05:36 +0300 > Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com > (dsl081-251-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.251.250]) > by raritet.gu.kiev.ua (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g74Inng28822 > for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 21:49:49 +0300 > Received: from greatcircle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP > id A372119603F; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:34:57 -0700 (PDT) > Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) > by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68AEE195F19 > for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:34:53 -0700 > (PDT) > Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) > by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) > id 17bR8i-00053Y-00 > for ; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 12:34:08 -0700 > Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) > by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) > id 17bR8h-00053L-00; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 12:34:07 -0700 > To: Chuq Von Rospach > CC: KHLsv , Bernie Cosell > , > List Managers Mailing list > > > -- > Chuq Von Rospach, Architech > chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ > > Very funny, Scotty. Now beam my clothes down here, will you? > > From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 03:32:28 2002 Received: from rowan.oak-wood.co.uk (pc1-nott1-3-cust72.not.cable.ntl.com [62.254.2.72]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6817B195AD5 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 03:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from celandine.oak-wood.co.uk (celandine.oak-wood.co.uk [192.168.37.3]) by rowan.oak-wood.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C8462185 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 11:31:32 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 11:30:46 +0100 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Chris Hastie Subject: Mailing lists and the UK Data Protection Act MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U () X-Archive-Number: 200208/56 X-Sequence-Number: 684 This is one for UK and other EU based list managers, so apologies to all those elsewhere to whom it has no relevance. Has anyone managed to get a good grasp of the implications on mailing lists of the Data Protection Act 1998 in the UK, or equivalent legislation elsewhere in the EU made as a result of the same EU Directive? There are a number of areas where I have concerns. Clearly, subscription information is 'personal data'. Also clearly, it is processed. Which pretty much is all that is needed to bring the operation under the DPA. Normal good practice should go a long way towards satisfying basic requirements. The requirement to obtain the subject's consent to the processing of data, for example, is met by an opt-in list requiring mail-back confirmation, certainly so if the mail requesting confirmation is explicit about this. One of the lists I run occasionally includes short advertising messages in order to help finance it. Users are made aware of this possibility when they subscribe. It seems to me that this fact adds the purpose "Advertising, marketing and PR for others" to the list's operation and therefore brings with it the need to notify the Information Commissioner. Another issue is that of other admins. Following an unpleasant altercation between the list and a subscriber's holiday auto-responder, whilst I was away camping and unable to get to a machine to sort it out, I want to give admin rights to a couple of trusted subscribers so that there are other people on hand to sort out such things in future. I don't employ these people, I don't pay them anything, but they will be acting under my instructions, so effectively, I hope, as my agents. Are separate notifications required from them, or will my notification be suffice? Now the one I'm really having difficulty getting my head around. The list's publicly accessibly web based archive. So a list member has to confirm their subscription, effectively consenting to the processing of their personal data. They are told that any post they make will be placed in the archive, so can be deemed to have consented to this if they choose to post. It is also made clear to them that a web archive can be accessed from anywhere. So I'm arguing in posting they have consented to the transfer of any personal data in that message outside of the European Economic Area (the DPA requires consent for such transfers). Am I on reasonable ground here? But it gets worse. What if Joe includes in his post something like "Mr So-and-so is an expert in this field. You may like to try dropping him a line at soandso@someisp.net". This, it seems to me, is personal data relating to Mr So-and-so. Any good search engine will retrieve it on a search for So-and-so. It is processed into the archive, and it is transferred outside the EEA in both the archive and in transmission to non EEA subscribers. But Mr So-and-so may never have consented to this. Has the law been broken? If so, who broke it, me as the list-manager or Joe as the person who sent the message. Anyone got any ideas??? -- Chris Hastie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 08:00:06 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0A4195FFF for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 07:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g75EwkV17760; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 07:58:46 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 07:58:39 -0700 Subject: Re: m.gmane.org From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Barry Warsaw Cc: KHLsv , Bernie Cosell , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <15694.32588.614315.599079@anthem.wooz.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/57 X-Sequence-Number: 685 On 8/5/02 6:36 AM, "Barry A. Warsaw" wrote: > Or, put a lock on the front door. Better yet, put a special kind of > lock where everyone can have their own key, but you can still control > which keys unlock it. Of course, that's got its own raft of issues > that have been talked about before. > > I'd be interested to know if anybody actually /runs/ such lists. That sounds like S/MIME or some variation of a public key infrastructure. It'd work, except nobody's built a PK infrastructure that is usable by non-geeks. So it remains a niche tool. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 09:37:46 2002 Received: from above.proper.com (mail.proper.com [208.184.76.45]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B74EE1959E5 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [165.227.249.18] (165-227-249-18.client.dsl.net [165.227.249.18]) by above.proper.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g75Gavw27749 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:36:54 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: m.gmane.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Archive-Number: 200208/58 X-Sequence-Number: 686 At 7:58 AM -0700 8/5/02, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >On 8/5/02 6:36 AM, "Barry A. Warsaw" wrote: > >> Or, put a lock on the front door. Better yet, put a special kind of >> lock where everyone can have their own key, but you can still control >> which keys unlock it. Of course, that's got its own raft of issues >> that have been talked about before. >> >> I'd be interested to know if anybody actually /runs/ such lists. > >That sounds like S/MIME or some variation of a public key infrastructure. > >It'd work, except nobody's built a PK infrastructure that is usable by >non-geeks. So it remains a niche tool. As editor of the standard that describes how to create such a list, I unfortunately agree with Chuq. There are people who run such lists, but every one of them that I have heard of are in the military (mostly US, but some NATO as well). --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 09:59:58 2002 Received: from epimetheus.hosting4u.net (epimetheus.hosting4u.net [209.15.2.70]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EC18E195AED for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21702 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2002 16:59:05 -0000 Received: from gemini.hosting4u.net (HELO macnauchtan.com) (209.15.2.47) by mail-gate.hosting4u.net with SMTP; 5 Aug 2002 16:59:05 -0000 Received: from [192.168.1.11] ([66.1.96.11]) by macnauchtan.com ; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 11:58:22 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 10:56:44 -0600 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Doug McNutt Subject: Earthlink e-mail passwords Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Rcpt-To: X-Archive-Number: 200208/59 X-Sequence-Number: 687 I have to tell someone and you folks are the closest to being appropriate of the lists I read. At 05:07 -0400 8/5/02, service@earthlink.net wrote: >SPRINT BROADBAND DIRECT/EARTHLINK:08/04/02 >EARTHLINK - Midas Customer No.: ******* > >Dear Sprint Broadband Direct(sm)/EarthLink member, > > This email contains essential information for (your) mailboxes. It is important that you save this email so you will have a record of the username, password, and email address for each of your mailboxes. > >Primary Email address: ******@earthlink.net >Your new username is: ****** >Your new password is: ***** ** More names and passwords SNIPPED *** The usernames and passwords are not in any sense "new". I have been their customer for a couple of years through Sprint BroadBand and I have assigned accounts and passwords to a half dozen friends on this account and another. And now, in plain text over IP, comes all of my passwords. Sigh. . . Why worry about m.gmane.org? -- --> In Christianity, man can have only one wife. This is known as monotony. <-- From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 11:08:32 2002 Received: from pop2b.ripco.com (pop2b.ripco.com [209.100.227.27]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25568195AA9 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 11:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ord351473 (cpe-66-87-152-33.il.sprintbbd.net [66.87.152.33]) by pop2b.ripco.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g75I7kw27590 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:07:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00b601c23caa$ebbc7aa0$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> From: "David W. Tamkin" To: References: Subject: Re: Earthlink e-mail passwords Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:00:48 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Archive-Number: 200208/60 X-Sequence-Number: 688 Doug posted, | I have to tell someone and you folks are the closest to being appropriate of the lists I read. | | At 05:07 -0400 8/5/02, service@earthlink.net wrote: | > SPRINT BROADBAND DIRECT/EARTHLINK:08/04/02 | > EARTHLINK - Midas Customer No.: ******* | > [all of Doug's usernames and passwords on Earthlink] | And now, in plain text over IP, comes all of my passwords. Hmm. I'm also a Sprint Broadband Direct customer, yet I've received no such message yet. Four of my six emaliboxes have never been used, one only slightly, but one heavily. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 12:07:39 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D2D1959E0 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g75J6GO09111; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:06:18 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 09:53:42 -0700 Subject: Re: m.gmane.org From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Paul Hoffman / IMC , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/61 X-Sequence-Number: 689 On 8/5/02 9:36 AM, "Paul Hoffman / IMC" wrote: >> It'd work, except nobody's built a PK infrastructure that is usable by >> non-geeks. So it remains a niche tool. > > As editor of the standard that describes how to create such a list, I > unfortunately agree with Chuq. And unfortunately, this is an 800 pound gorilla problem. Any system you might want to build not only has to be really easy to use, but you need AOL to buy into it. If you don't, you have enough users who CAN'T buy into it that it basically doesn't make sense to try. You might leverage AOL by getting MSN/Hotmail or Earthlink to buy in and force AOL's hands, but assuming that would work (not a safe assumption), if you start today, it might be ready to roll out in five years. So to me, this is, unfortunately, DOA for anything but a long-term solution. And it needs some PK group to take point on the infrastructure, it can't come out of the mail list groups. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 12:24:13 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA03A1959E0 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g75JMTO11189 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:22:29 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 12:22:50 -0700 Subject: Stupid filter of the day award. From: Chuq Von Rospach To: List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/62 X-Sequence-Number: 690 A site in canada deleting all messages with the words "special offer" in them. Telling us if it's NOT spam, to re-send without that phrase. Like we're really going to resend a set of mail list messages for their benefit.... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 12:40:12 2002 Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5740B195ADF for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 24-205-154-98.riv-res.charterpipeline.net ([24.205.154.98] helo=lehel.goldmark.private) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bnhO-0002j5-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 12:39:26 -0700 Received: from jeffrey (helo=localhost) by lehel.goldmark.private with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 17bnhU-0004bW-00 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 12:39:32 -0700 Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:39:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-X-Sender: jeffrey@lehel.goldmark.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Listing list-managers on gmane Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/63 X-Sequence-Number: 691 Is there any objection to listing this list (list-managers) on gmane in the "munge" mode? We already know that this list is publically archived on greatcircle. There is currently discussion about the discussion on this list on gname.discuss. (Did anyone follow that sentence?). -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 12:41:27 2002 Received: from pop2b.ripco.com (pop2b.ripco.com [209.100.227.27]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65B8A1960D6 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ord351473 (cpe-66-87-152-33.il.sprintbbd.net [66.87.152.33]) by pop2b.ripco.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g75Jeew04310 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 14:40:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00e501c23cb7$de36a4c0$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> From: "David W. Tamkin" To: "List Managers Mailing list" References: Subject: Re: Stupid filter of the day award Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 14:38:40 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Archive-Number: 200208/64 X-Sequence-Number: 692 Chuq nominated, | A site in Canada deleting all messages with the words "sp*c**l *ff*r" in | them. Telling us if it's NOT spam, to re-send without that phrase. | | Like we're really going to resend a set of mail list messages for their | benefit.... Last week a twit on another list autoresponded at me that he doesn't accept mail with exclamation points in the subject, so if I want him to receive it, I should send it again with no exclamation points. It had *one* exclamation point, and that because it was Re: the subject of another post, whose author was excited about having finally solved a knotty problem. There may be only one award per day, but there's a candidate born every minute. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 13:15:25 2002 Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD0891959E0 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org ([12.236.47.35]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020805201433.XHYS23732.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@ee-nt.climber.org> for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:14:33 +0000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805131521.00acc580@mail.attbi.com> X-Sender: steveeckert@mail.attbi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:17:43 -0700 To: From: SRE Subject: Re: Stupid filter of the day award In-Reply-To: <00e501c23cb7$de36a4c0$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Archive-Number: 200208/65 X-Sequence-Number: 693 At 12:38 PM 8/5/02, David W. Tamkin wrote: >There may be only one award per day, but there's a candidate born every minute. This one is from a few days ago, I've been out... but there is a .edu site which is blocking anything that has any reference to a filename, even if it's inline MIME, which has more than one dot in the filename: >>Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 02:38:09 -0600 (MDT) >>From: [postmaster] >>Subject: Re: virus detected in Mj2 response ?!? >>In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804211508.02b225a0@mail.attbi.com> >>Message-ID: >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >> >>Hello, >> While our MailScanner blocked the attachment as noted below, the >>subscriber did receive a message letting them know that _something_ was >>blocked. You're correct that the scanner's issue is with multiple >>periods (attempting to keep people from clicking on filename.txt.exe when >>MS Windows hides the .exe extention) - we need to modify our rules such >>that only attachments are blocked when the final extention is .exe, .com, >>.vbs, Etc. >> >>[snip] From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 13:23:53 2002 Received: from mail.rev.net (server02.rev.net [206.67.68.98]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9999195B05 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fantasy (cosell.gva.net [65.164.103.253]) by mail.rev.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g75KN4J19117 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:23:04 -0400 Message-Id: <200208052023.g75KN4J19117@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:23:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Stupid filter of the day award In-reply-to: <00e501c23cb7$de36a4c0$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.3.1(snapshot 20020108) (server02.rev.net) X-Archived: msg.1028578984.ktLOAY@server02.rev.net X-Archive-Number: 200208/66 X-Sequence-Number: 694 On 5 Aug 2002, at 14:38, David W. Tamkin wrote: > Chuq nominated, > > | A site in Canada deleting all messages with the words "sp*c**l *ff*r" in > | them. Telling us if it's NOT spam, to re-send without that phrase. > | > | Like we're really going to resend a set of mail list messages for their > | benefit.... > > Last week a twit on another list autoresponded at me that he doesn't accept > mail with exclamation points in the subject, so if I want him to receive it, I > should send it again with no exclamation points. > > It had *one* exclamation point, and that because it was Re: the subject of > another post, whose author was excited about having finally solved a knotty > problem. > > There may be only one award per day, but there's a candidate born every > minute. Maybe "There is ALWAYS some sysadmin who has their system clock mis-set to September" :o) Except that most sysadmins treat these filters as if they are NSA codebooks, it might be fun to try to collect some of the more outrageous rules on a web site... "sysadminswithoutaclue.com"...:o) /b\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 13:23:58 2002 Received: from mail.rev.net (server02.rev.net [206.67.68.98]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A46195F0F for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fantasy (cosell.gva.net [65.164.103.253]) by mail.rev.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g75KN5J19155 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:23:06 -0400 Message-Id: <200208052023.g75KN5J19155@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:23:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: m.gmane.org In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.3.1(snapshot 20020108) (server02.rev.net) X-Archived: msg.1028578985.fKhLHD@server02.rev.net X-Archive-Number: 200208/67 X-Sequence-Number: 695 On 5 Aug 2002, at 9:53, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 8/5/02 9:36 AM, "Paul Hoffman / IMC" wrote: > > >> It'd work, except nobody's built a PK infrastructure that is usable by > >> non-geeks. So it remains a niche tool. > > > > As editor of the standard that describes how to create such a list, I > > unfortunately agree with Chuq. > > And unfortunately, this is an 800 pound gorilla problem. Any system you > might want to build not only has to be really easy to use, but you need AOL > to buy into it. If you don't, you have enough users who CAN'T buy into it > that it basically doesn't make sense to try. You might leverage AOL by > getting MSN/Hotmail or Earthlink to buy in ... I'm not understanding here. I thought that there were three 'realms' in the Internet email world. There's AOL, there's MSN/Hotmail, and there's *EVERYONE*ELSE* who just abide by the RFCs and do things normally. Is that not a true assumption any more? -- are there more sites [like Earthlink, perhaps] that have cobbled up their own non-RFC-compliant little worlds and so if something like this were put in place [presuably within the specs of 2822/MIME] their customers wouldn't be able to hack it?? /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 13:24:00 2002 Received: from mail.rev.net (server02.rev.net [206.67.68.98]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B71195B05 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fantasy (cosell.gva.net [65.164.103.253]) by mail.rev.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g75KN7J19180 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:23:07 -0400 Message-Id: <200208052023.g75KN7J19180@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:23:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Stupid filter of the day award. In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.3.1(snapshot 20020108) (server02.rev.net) X-Archived: msg.1028578987.DrLCvk@server02.rev.net X-Archive-Number: 200208/68 X-Sequence-Number: 696 On 5 Aug 2002, at 12:22, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > A site in canada deleting all messages with the words "special offer" in > them. Telling us if it's NOT spam, to re-send without that phrase. > > Like we're really going to resend a set of mail list messages for their > benefit.... Yeah, like one site that for a while [maybe still] would reject a message with a redundant 'reply-to'. [answer when I complained: tell your correspondent NOT to set the reply to, since it doesn't do anything [because it matched the 'from']]... What I did instead was change my MX record...:o) Some of thess adhoc, server 'roll your own' spam filters are REALLY cretinous... /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 13:31:15 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 307A21959E1 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g75KTNO20153; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:29:23 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:29:45 -0700 Subject: Re: Stupid filter of the day award From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Bernie Cosell , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200208052023.g75KN4J19117@mail.rev.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/69 X-Sequence-Number: 697 On 8/5/02 1:23 PM, "Bernie Cosell" wrote: > Except that most sysadmins treat these filters as if they are NSA > codebooks, it might be fun to try to collect some of the more outrageous > rules on a web site... "sysadminswithoutaclue.com"...:o) I'll host it once I finish my redo of my server. We'll start on chuqui.com and see if there's enough interest to warrant expanding it. Sound reasonable? -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ He doesn't have ulcers, but he's a carrier. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 16:29:14 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98FC7195F61 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g75NR3O08578; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:27:03 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 16:27:26 -0700 Subject: Re: m.gmane.org From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Bernie Cosell , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200208052023.g75KN5J19155@mail.rev.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/70 X-Sequence-Number: 698 On 8/5/02 1:23 PM, "Bernie Cosell" wrote: > I'm not understanding here. I thought that there were three 'realms' in > the Internet email world. There's AOL, there's MSN/Hotmail, and there's > *EVERYONE*ELSE* who just abide by the RFCs and do things normally. Is > that not a true assumption any more? No, it's fairly true. Earthlink is pretty compliant, and it's the third biggest gorilla. If you could get earthlink to buy into something, that's good, and leverage against the other two, but not decisive. > -- are there more sites [like > Earthlink, perhaps] that have cobbled up their own non-RFC-compliant > little worlds Oh, sure. Lots of little ones. With the increasingly visible problem of stupid spam filters, it's getting worse, not better. What I like are the occasional messages that say "blah de dah has declared this piece of email of yours to be spam. How do you plan on fixing this?" To which my answer is "if they did a false-positive on a piece of non-spam, why should I fix my system? Tell them to improve theirs". But they don't seem to like that answer, they seem to think if spam assasin says so, it must be so... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 16:48:40 2002 Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F3D2195F0F for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 24-205-154-98.riv-res.charterpipeline.net ([24.205.154.98] helo=lehel.goldmark.private) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17brZq-0005G5-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 16:47:54 -0700 Received: from jeffrey (helo=localhost) by lehel.goldmark.private with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 17brZv-0004iD-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 16:47:59 -0700 Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:47:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-X-Sender: jeffrey@lehel.goldmark.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Stupid filter of the day award In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/71 X-Sequence-Number: 699 On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I'll host it once I finish my redo of my server. Great. I've got spam filtering horror story that might fall into a different category of stupidity. As you see, I have the domain goldmark.org. The MXes point to my hosting service, and particularly to a machine cypress.he.net. Mail from there was (until this incident) forwarded to my local ISP, uia.net. Well, I get a lot of spam to my various goldmark.org addresses, all of which get forwarded to my ISP bound email address where I'd fetch it. One day last week I started to get phone calls and faxes from around the world telling me that I'm bouncing mail. It turned out that uia.net saw all of this spam coming to me from cypress.he.net and blocked that host. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 5 19:47:26 2002 Received: from ns1.firemountain.net (unknown [66.105.101.81]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04231195F9B for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (balt-6-33.dynamic-dialup.coretel.net [162.33.94.33]) by ns1.firemountain.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g762XXv07433 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:33:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from avatar.gsp.org ([192.168.0.11]) by gsp.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g762iN301519 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by avatar.gsp.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g762j4m11265 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:45:03 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Stupid filter of the day award Message-ID: <20020806024503.GA10886@gsp.org> References: <00e501c23cb7$de36a4c0$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00e501c23cb7$de36a4c0$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Archive-Number: 200208/72 X-Sequence-Number: 700 On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 02:38:40PM -0500, David W. Tamkin wrote: > There may be only one award per day, but there's a candidate born every > minute. One of my s*bscribers sent a plain ASCII text message to a mailing list of which he is a member. His own site rejected that message on the grounds that "it might contain a virus". I wonder how much they paid for that "anti-virus" software. ---Rsk From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 6 10:00:52 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B452D195ADD for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g76GwVO11827 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:58:31 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 09:53:22 -0700 Subject: Someone else chirps about stupid filters.... From: Chuq Von Rospach To: List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/73 X-Sequence-Number: 701 FYI. I promise I won't make a habit of this here. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 6 13:36:58 2002 Received: from pop2b.ripco.com (pop2b.ripco.com [209.100.227.27]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74097195AA8 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ord351473 (cpe-66-87-152-33.il.sprintbbd.net [66.87.152.33]) by pop2b.ripco.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g76KaEq07790 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:36:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <000b01c23d88$cde3cc20$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> From: "David W. Tamkin" To: Subject: Earthlink password message came today Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:30:11 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Archive-Number: 200208/74 X-Sequence-Number: 702 Does this list have searchable archives? Yesterday, another Sprint Broadband Direct customer here posted that Earthlink had sent a plain-text listing of all email usernames and passwords on the account, calling them "new" (which they weren't). I responded that I'm also a Sprint Broadband Direct customer but had received no such thing. Well, mine came today. Now that the passwords have traveled through clear email I will change them all. It was just such a pain to come up with them in the first place! DWT From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 6 19:02:14 2002 Received: from thunderer.cnchost.com (thunderer.concentric.net [207.155.252.72]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31A75195B2B for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (adsl-208-201-244-240.sonic.net [208.201.244.240]) by thunderer.cnchost.com id WAA17377; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 22:01:26 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20020806190344.04004780@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:03:59 -0700 To: From: JC Dill Subject: Re: Earthlink password message came today Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/75 X-Sequence-Number: 703 On 01:30 PM 8/6/02, David W. Tamkin wrote: >Does this list have searchable archives? Do you know how to google? From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 6 19:34:51 2002 Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50A511959E7 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g772Xpf37000 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 22:33:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: from tom-w2kc (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g772XoU36930 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 22:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 22:35:56 -0400 From: Tom Neff Reply-To: tneff@grassyhill.org To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Earthlink password message came today Message-ID: <47435578.1028673356@[192.168.254.8]> In-Reply-To: <000b01c23d88$cde3cc20$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> References: <000b01c23d88$cde3cc20$21985742@il.sprintbbd.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) Organization: Grassy Hill Entertainment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanner: scanned by Inflex 1.0.12.3 - http://pldaniels.com/inflex X-Archive-Number: 200208/76 X-Sequence-Number: 704 --On Tuesday, August 06, 2002 3:30 PM -0500 "David W. Tamkin" wrote: > Does this list have searchable archives? http://www.google.com/search?q=list-managers%20archives From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 6 19:43:01 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (oldradio.net [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C19DB1959E7 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA23286; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 22:41:25 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020806190344.04004780@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 22:42:05 -0400 To: JC Dill , From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: Earthlink password message came today Cc: dattier@ripco.com X-Archive-Number: 200208/77 X-Sequence-Number: 705 At 10:03 PM -0400 8/6/02, JC Dill is rumored to have typed: > On 01:30 PM 8/6/02, David W. Tamkin wrote: > >Does this list have searchable archives? > > Do you know how to google? Which, of course, doesn't answer his question at all, since that Google link points back to the Great Circle page (which I'm certain David could find without using Google) which does NOT have _serchable_ archives. Charlie (who almost avoided a wise-*ssed, "Do you know how to read?") From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 6 20:01:17 2002 Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 911181959E7 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g7730Nq39373 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 23:00:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: from tom-w2kc (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g7730MU39303 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 23:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 23:02:29 -0400 From: Tom Neff Reply-To: tneff@grassyhill.org To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Earthlink password message came today Message-ID: <49027953.1028674949@[192.168.254.8]> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) Organization: Grassy Hill Entertainment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanner: scanned by Inflex 1.0.12.3 - http://pldaniels.com/inflex X-Archive-Number: 200208/78 X-Sequence-Number: 706 --On Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:42 PM -0400 Charlie Summers wrote: >> Do you know how to google? > > Which, of course, doesn't answer his question at all, since that Google > link points back to the Great Circle page (which I'm certain David could > find without using Google) which does NOT have _serchable_ archives. Charlie's posting also doesn't answer David's question. This posting does: http://www.mail-archive.com/list-managers@greatcircle.com/ From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 6 20:08:23 2002 Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAD0B1959F5 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-vcaumn8.dsl.mindspring.com ([216.175.90.232] helo=queernet.org) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cHAa-0003Vk-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:07:32 -0700 Message-ID: <3D508EF3.2060308@queernet.org> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:07:31 -0700 From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.1b) Gecko/20020727 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernie Cosell Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: m.gmane.org References: <200208052023.g75KN5J19155@mail.rev.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/79 X-Sequence-Number: 707 Bernie Cosell wrote: > > >I'm not understanding here. I thought that there were three 'realms' in >the Internet email world. There's AOL, there's MSN/Hotmail, and there's >*EVERYONE*ELSE* who just abide by the RFCs and do things normally. > Whether or not they abide by current RFCs has nothing to do with whether they'll implement something new just because someone RFCs it. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 6 20:36:51 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (oldradio.net [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40ADA1959F5 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26264 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 23:36:00 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <49027953.1028674949@[192.168.254.8]> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 23:33:33 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: Earthlink password message came today X-Archive-Number: 200208/80 X-Sequence-Number: 708 At 11:02 PM -0400 8/6/02, Tom Neff is rumored to have typed: > Charlie's posting also doesn't answer David's question. Wasn't intended to do so. I am, I have to admit, curious about: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/list-managers/ ...in that it appears to replicate within YahooGroups this mailing list.= This area, too, has a searchable archive (for anyone fool enough to give u= p demographic data to Yahoo! - oops, skip that, anyone including spammers m= ay search so long as you accept a couple of cookies ands waste time at an a= d page), but is also uncomfortable to me since I prefer to have as little t= o do with the privacy-invading yahoos at Yahoo! as absolutely necessary. Is it normal for lists to be duplicated on YahooGroups? Did our fearless= leader(s) sanction this replication, or did they just hijack the group? Sh= ould this be added to the list of areas who may hold unsanctioned archives?= Will John leave Marsha? Charlie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 8 08:35:18 2002 Received: from luckytown.org (luckytown.org [161.58.5.78]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F65C195AB4 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 08:35:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KevinNotebook (w124.z208177178.chi-il.dsl.cnc.net [208.177.178.124]) by luckytown.org (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g78FYSm07323 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:34:28 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: From: "Kevin Kinder" To: Subject: determining real Klez worm sender? Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:34:09 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c23ef1$108e31f0$0301a8c0@KevinNotebook> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20020807062006.C5395195F9B@mycroft.greatcircle.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Archive-Number: 200208/81 X-Sequence-Number: 709 I keep getting bombarded with the ever-annoying Klez worm (see http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.klez.h@mm.ht ml if you don't know what I'm talking about) from some of my mailing list subscribers. With previous worms, I'd email the sender and ask them to innoculate themselves, and black-hole them if they didn't. With Klez spoofing the From: address, that idea goes out the window. Is there some way to determine the real sender of Klez email by examining the email headers? So far, all I can seem to determine is the originating site, which in most cases is no help. Similarly, once in a while I get a Klez post sent to majordomo@my site. Rather than stopping after a few errors, majordomo keeps checking each of several thousand binary lines, spitting out an error for each. Is there some majordomo setting to get it to stop processing after X errors? I thought there was, but I can't find it. Thanks. ----- Kevin Kinder kinder@luckytown.org From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 8 09:03:11 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (oldradio.net [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EC6D195F66 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (lof@chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19126; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:02:13 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000001c23ef1$108e31f0$0301a8c0@KevinNotebook> References: <20020807062006.C5395195F9B@mycroft.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:52:52 -0400 To: , From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: determining real Klez worm sender? X-Archive-Number: 200208/82 X-Sequence-Number: 710 At 11:34 AM -0400 8/8/02, Kevin Kinder is rumored to have typed: > Is there some > way to determine the real sender of Klez email by examining the email > headers? So far, all I can seem to determine is the originating site, > which in most cases is no help. The envelope sender _used_ to be reliable, but it doesn't appear to be any longer. Can anyone else confirm that later versinos of this thing are munging the envelope sender as well? Charlie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 8 10:10:42 2002 Received: from opus.INS.cwru.edu (opus.INS.CWRU.Edu [129.22.8.2]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7541959E3 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shen (free-ppp072.MODEMS.CWRU.Edu [129.22.7.72]) by opus.INS.cwru.edu with SMTP (8.11.6+cwru/CWRU-3.9) id g78H9qO14637; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:09:52 -0400 (EDT) (from gxs59@po.cwru.edu for ) Message-Id: <200208081709.g78H9qO14637@opus.INS.cwru.edu> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:10:48 -0800 From: Gongqin Shen To: "list-managers@greatcircle.com" Subject: Question on Majordomo X-mailer: FoxMail 3.11 Release [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/83 X-Sequence-Number: 711 Hi everybody: I am a new administrator of a majordomo mailing list and I want to modify the message_footer of the whole list.I have tried to use the command "newconfig" to modify the message_footer, but everytime the system gives error message. To make sure I don't make mistake in the new config file,I even leave the new configuration file empty to test and also the same error information appears which state:"The new config file for cssa was NOT accepted because: syntax error at (eval 10) line 1, near "=~ ." " I just send this email for help. If somebody knows how to deal with the command "newconfig",please give me a hand and your help will be highly appreciated. Thanks and have a good day!:) gongqin From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 8 11:19:54 2002 Received: from yertle.kciLink.com (yertle.kcilink.com [216.194.193.105]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAF2E195AB8 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onceler.kciLink.com (onceler.kciLink.com [216.194.193.106]) by yertle.kciLink.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D47B82178B for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by onceler.kciLink.com (Postfix, from userid 100) id 4F0783D15; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:19:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Vivek Khera MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15698.46617.75592.971224@onceler.kciLink.com> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:19:05 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: determining real Klez worm sender? In-Reply-To: References: <20020807062006.C5395195F9B@mycroft.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.04 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid X-Archive-Number: 200208/84 X-Sequence-Number: 712 >>>>> "CS" == Charlie Summers writes: CS> The envelope sender _used_ to be reliable, but it doesn't appear CS> to be any longer. Can anyone else confirm that later versinos of CS> this thing are munging the envelope sender as well? I've tried to respond to a few envelope senders, but they are "account does not exist", within seconds of the klez appearing. I'm suspecting that the ISP in question didn't react that quickly ;-) So, my guess is that it does fake the sender address as well. I just use a postfix body_check filter to block it at the gate, and let the real sender eat their own worms. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 8 11:35:39 2002 Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [207.192.128.31]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2451195BC8 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g78IYoJU005739; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:34:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Beartooth Reply-To: KHLsv To: Vivek Khera Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: OT Re: determining real Klez worm sender? In-Reply-To: <15698.46617.75592.971224@onceler.kciLink.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/85 X-Sequence-Number: 713 On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Vivek Khera wrote: > > I just use a postfix body_check filter to block it at the gate, > and let the real sender eat their own worms. Spooner himself enjoyed and collected Spoonerisms. His favorite, and still the all-time champ afaik, was "Mr XYZ, you have hissed all my mystery lectures, and tasted two whole worms." -- Beartooth the Stubborn , double retiree, linux hatchling w/ RH 7.2; ssh'd (DSL) to pine 4.43 on ISP's SunOS 5.8; Opera 6.02, Pan 0.11.2, Galeon 1.2.5, & Mozilla 1.0 Neo-Redneck, Weird by Nature -- and with Gusto! From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 12 21:11:24 2002 Received: from penguin.postmodern.com (penguin.postmodern.com [216.240.39.2]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDDF8195AB9 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 21:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heathrow.postmodern.com (heathrow.postmodern.com [216.240.39.13]) by penguin.postmodern.com (8.11.1/8.11.1-mcb-20001119) with ESMTP id g7D4ATu24730 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 21:10:29 -0700 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:27:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) From: "Michael C. Berch" To: List Managers Mailing list , `@greatcircle.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) X-Archive-Number: 200208/86 X-Sequence-Number: 714 Hi all -- I'm typing this on a plane so I don't know when it will be delivered or in what context, but personally, I don't see the value of listing or archiving or whatever it is that gmane.org offers. I haven't investigated it beyond what has been discussed here, but all the previous external list services have had problems associated with them, both major (the site tried to pass the list off as theirs) and minor (some people were confused about where the list was hosted and how to join/leave, especially if the host name changed and the service did not pick it up). List-Managers seems to do quite well on its own here at Great Circle without the need for external services, processing, or promotion. (It's easy to find in a search engine.) There are local archives here, and external, searchable archives at mail-archive.org. The same distrust extends especially to Yahoo, whose privacy and IP policies have mutated in some questionable directions in the last year or two. So I do not plan to have List-Managers participate in gmane, nor in Yahoo Groups, or other services, unless there is some mass outcry and consensus that it would be valuable to do so. I can't speak for Brent, who is the founder and host, but I'd guess his opinions are at least vaguely congruent. -- Michael C. Berch List-Managers list-manager mcb@greatcircle.com / mcb@postmodern.com On Monday, August 5, 2002, at 02:39 PM, Jeffrey Goldberg wrote: > Is there any objection to listing this list (list-managers) on gmane in > the "munge" mode? > > We already know that this list is publically archived on greatcircle. > > There is currently discussion about the discussion on this list on > gname.discuss. (Did anyone follow that sentence?). > > -j > > -- > Jeffrey Goldberg > http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ > Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over > justice > From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 12 23:04:56 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D2DB1959F3 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17eUmk-0002U1-00 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:04:06 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17eUmk-0002Ts-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:04:06 -0700 To: "Michael C. Berch" Cc: List Managers Mailing list , `@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane In-Reply-To: Message from "Michael C. Berch" of "Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:27:50 CDT." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:04:06 -0700 Message-ID: <9539.1029218646@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: mcb@postmodern.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, `@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: DJtVguS9dokrRjZvuLLlIWSoyyk X-Archive-Number: 200208/87 X-Sequence-Number: 715 On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:27:50 -0500 Michael C Berch wrote: > I don't see the value of listing or archiving or whatever it is that > gmane.org offers. The value of GMane is primarily not to list owners, but to list readers/members. GMans gives them: a) A potentially compleat spool of all prior posts, searchable in standard NNTP fashion. b) Ability to use their favourite NNTP client instead of an MUA. Many prefer their netnews clients to MUAs, and find them better featured and more flexible. c) No or lesser requirement to subscribe to the subject lists. They just add/remove themselves from the matching newsgroups in standard netnews fashion. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 07:19:50 2002 Received: from yertle.kciLink.com (yertle.kcilink.com [216.194.193.105]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50CD0195AD0 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onceler.kciLink.com (onceler.kciLink.com [216.194.193.106]) by yertle.kciLink.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6893E21791 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by onceler.kciLink.com (Postfix, from userid 100) id 1B84A3D15; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:19:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Vivek Khera MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15705.5460.990196.164884@onceler.kciLink.com> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:19:00 -0400 To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane In-Reply-To: <9539.1029218646@kanga.nu> References: <9539.1029218646@kanga.nu> X-Mailer: VM 7.04 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid X-Archive-Number: 200208/88 X-Sequence-Number: 716 >>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence writes: JCL> On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:27:50 -0500 JCL> Michael C Berch wrote: >> I don't see the value of listing or archiving or whatever it is that >> gmane.org offers. JCL> The value of GMane is primarily not to list owners, but to list JCL> readers/members. GMans gives them: My take on this is that they're pulling the "protected" world of mailing lists back to the swamp called usenet. Back when you could scan and read *all* of usenet in 30 minutes in the morning, it was good. When it became the free-for-all pit of cluelessness, the clueful retreated to mailing lists, where there is a slightly higher threshhold for participating. Now, gmane wants to pull them back, apparently kicking and screaming. If people wanted newsgroups, they'd have them instead of mailing lists. Just because your mail reading software sucks, doesn't mean you need to pull the whole community into the usenet view of things. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Vivek Khera, Ph.D. Khera Communications, Inc. Internet: khera@kciLink.com Rockville, MD +1-240-453-8497 AIM: vivekkhera Y!: vivek_khera http://www.khera.org/~vivek/ From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 07:48:26 2002 Received: from mail.wooz.org (dsl093-082-039.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.82.39]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFBA0195AD0 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.wooz.org (Postfix, from userid 889) id 12EECD3800; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:47:35 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15705.7174.992950.327047@anthem.wooz.org> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:47:34 -0400 To: Vivek Khera Cc: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane References: <15705.5460.990196.164884@onceler.kciLink.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) X-Attribution: BAW X-Oblique-Strategy: Burn bridges X-Url: http://barry.wooz.org X-Archive-Number: 200208/89 X-Sequence-Number: 717 >>>>> "VK" == Vivek Khera writes: VK> If people wanted newsgroups, they'd have them instead of VK> mailing lists. Just because your mail reading software sucks, VK> doesn't mean you need to pull the whole community into the VK> usenet view of things. There's definitely a need that gmane fills, at least w.r.t. our mailing lists on python.org/zope.org. There's a /lot/ of people who simply want read-only access to the discussions -- they're deliberate lurkers. Web archives generally suck so a non-expiring read-only newsfeed would fit the bill nicely, especially if someone else maintains it. :) -Barry From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 08:27:58 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30573195B22 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7DFQxV14284; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:26:59 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:26:53 -0700 Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Vivek Khera , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <15705.5460.990196.164884@onceler.kciLink.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/90 X-Sequence-Number: 718 On 8/13/02 7:19 AM, "Vivek Khera" wrote: > My take on this is that they're pulling the "protected" world of > mailing lists back to the swamp called usenet. Funny, but my reaction was that they're re-inventing AOL as an open source project. Trying to "be on the internet" while still cloistering themselves from the internet. That is not, by the way, a criticism. It has some useful advantages -- for THEM. But I see relationships like this should be two-way streets, not vampires. And without any real advantage in return, what's in it for the content providers? So I'm not interested... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 08:43:11 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (oldradio.net [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58DB195B22; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04151; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:42:03 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Envelope-To: Brent@greatcircle.com X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:41:12 -0400 To: "Michael C. Berch" , List Managers Mailing list From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane Cc: Brent@greatcircle.com X-Archive-Number: 200208/91 X-Sequence-Number: 719 At 6:27 PM -0400 8/12/02, Michael C. Berch is rumored to have typed: > I'm typing this on a plane Hope you had an enjoyable trip! > So I do not plan to have List-Managers participate in gmane, nor in > Yahoo Groups, or other services, unless there is some mass outcry and > consensus that it would be valuable to do so. I can't speak for Brent, > who is the founder and host, but I'd guess his opinions are at least > vaguely congruent. I can't speak to gmane, but the YahooGroups ship has already sailed. See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/list-managers/ ...which _is_ mirroring every posting made to this list (scroll down to the bottom of the page). They have 50 "members" in their group founded Aug 7, 1998, and are managing archives of this list which are publically available. Admittedly I initially brought this up because of my personal distaste for the privacy-invasive marketing data required by these Yahoo!s, but even for those who think YahooGroups are a good thing, this seems a little...odd. Understand, if you or Brent initiated this, that's one thing (I don't know _why_ you would, but your-list-your-call); if on the other hand you didn't and were unaware of its existance until now, they (or one of their members) have hijacked this list without the listmaster's approval, which is IMHO a Bad Thing. In that case, it's improper at best, and illegal at worst. Charlie (who wonders what happens if someone posts _there_ - do they have an address subscribed that sends it to Great Circle? Or does it only appear on YahooGroups?) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 09:17:14 2002 Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 842EC195AB4 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from apache@localhost) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g7DGG1A08374; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:16:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-Authentication-Warning: grassyhill.org: apache set sender to tneff@grassyhill.net using -f Received: from 204.60.148.242 (SquirrelMail authenticated user tneff) by grassyhill.net with HTTP; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:16:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1791.204.60.148.242.1029255361.squirrel@grassyhill.net> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:16:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane From: "Tom Neff" To: In-Reply-To: References: X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cc: X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.5) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/92 X-Sequence-Number: 720 Charlie Summers wrote: > I can't speak to gmane, but the YahooGroups ship has already sailed. > [etc] From http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/activity/activity-03.html : "* Attempt to post locally to a remote group: A member tried to post to a group that isn't hosted at Yahoo! Groups. Yahoo! Groups has some groups that merely archive messages of groups hosted on other services. You must post to the actual system that hosts that group." In the case of the list-managers group, they have archives going back to 1992! It is inconceivable that they have been members that long :) so there must be an archive "harvester" that Yahoo's developers actively unleashed on lists like this one. Nevertheless, there may be a "collector" address presently enrolled in list- managers to keep their archives current. It would be a shame if that membership entry were to get lost :) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 09:20:28 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A812C195AB4 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17eeOS-0003vi-00 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:19:40 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17eeOO-0003vZ-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:19:36 -0700 To: Vivek Khera Cc: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane In-Reply-To: Message from Vivek Khera of "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:19:00 EDT." <15705.5460.990196.164884@onceler.kciLink.com> References: <9539.1029218646@kanga.nu> <15705.5460.990196.164884@onceler.kciLink.com> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:19:36 -0700 Message-ID: <15100.1029255576@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: khera@kcilink.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: 2OzvT2iiFOJtc0VdJMh73KRY8f0 X-Archive-Number: 200208/93 X-Sequence-Number: 721 On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:19:00 -0400 Vivek Khera wrote: > My take on this is that they're pulling the "protected" world of > mailing lists back to the swamp called usenet. Much as I've discussed I'm doing for my lists, they're using TMDA in (reasonable) attempt to prevent that decline. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 09:26:10 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45ACF195B34 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17eeTx-0003xL-00 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:25:21 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17eeTx-0003xA-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:25:21 -0700 To: "Tom Neff" Cc: charlie@lofcom.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane In-Reply-To: Message from "Tom Neff" of "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:16:01 EDT." <1791.204.60.148.242.1029255361.squirrel@grassyhill.net> References: <1791.204.60.148.242.1029255361.squirrel@grassyhill.net> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:25:21 -0700 Message-ID: <15199.1029255921@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: tneff@grassyhill.net, charlie@lofcom.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: BBVEYJt8UuFEGDDTBaOXfme66e0 X-Archive-Number: 200208/94 X-Sequence-Number: 722 On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:16:01 -0400 (EDT) Tom Neff wrote: > In the case of the list-managers group, they have archives going back > to 1992! It is inconceivable that they have been members that long :) > so there must be an archive "harvester" that Yahoo's developers > actively unleashed on lists like this one. Yahoo acquired EGroups. EGroups had extensive tools and support for people migrating their lists to EGroups along with their list archives. As part of setting up the list you could send them your list archives in almost any format ad all and they'd populate their archives with them. Many used this to build off-site web archives for lists. I suspect that the YahooGroups list-managers stuff is just an instance of this. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 09:57:31 2002 Received: from mighty.grot.org (mighty.grot.org [204.182.56.120]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59125195B34 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mighty.grot.org (Postfix, from userid 515) id BB41F5D1F; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:56:37 -0700 From: Aditya To: Vivek Khera Cc: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane Message-ID: <20020813165637.GC86645@mighty.grot.org> References: <9539.1029218646@kanga.nu> <15705.5460.990196.164884@onceler.kciLink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15705.5460.990196.164884@onceler.kciLink.com> X-Archive-Number: 200208/95 X-Sequence-Number: 723 Vivek, On Tue, Aug 13, 2002 at 10:19:00AM -0400, Vivek Khera wrote: > >>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence writes: > JCL> The value of GMane is primarily not to list owners, but to list > JCL> readers/members. GMans gives them: > > > My take on this is that they're pulling the "protected" world of > mailing lists back to the swamp called usenet. Back when you could > scan and read *all* of usenet in 30 minutes in the morning, it was > good. When it became the free-for-all pit of cluelessness, the > clueful retreated to mailing lists, where there is a slightly higher > threshhold for participating. Now, gmane wants to pull them back, > apparently kicking and screaming. Uh, I think this is a bit of an exaggeration -- gmane isn't tied to any sort of usenet feed and hasn't leaked into "regular ol" usenet. > If people wanted newsgroups, they'd have them instead of mailing > lists. Just because your mail reading software sucks, doesn't mean > you need to pull the whole community into the usenet view of things. gmane isn't the only or the first entity to funnel mailing lists into an NNTP spool/server, it's just the most public. There are several advantages to reading mailing lists via NNTP (note that I am saying nothing about usenet) even beyond sucky MUAs. Some that I find useful are: - messages are stored server side (ie. pull of just the headers by readers is far more efficient than a push of the entire message by a mailing list) - gmane uses several techniques to protect email addresses from harvesting, far better than most web-based mailing list archives (and you can still reply to those messages after an interactive confirmation) - very few MUAs have a innate concept of "catch-up" (the one I know of, GNUS, was written by the guy who runs gmane) - instead of a procmail-type filtering mechanism, the binning of messages is done once, on the server side, for everyone - killfiles and scoring are far more prevalent in newsreaders than MUAs - gmane archival of mailing lists is far easier to search and navigate than a web-browser based archive -- try responding to an email in the web-based archives while preserving headers and not having to cut-and-paste - I'm hearing an objection to the content of usenet, not the alternative mechanism of NNTP to read large, threaded message discussions Please let me know if I'm missing something, Adi From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 10:02:40 2002 Received: from mighty.grot.org (mighty.grot.org [204.182.56.120]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B3F195B34 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mighty.grot.org (Postfix, from userid 515) id 313995D1F; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:01:52 -0700 From: Aditya To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane Message-ID: <20020813170152.GD86645@mighty.grot.org> References: <15705.5460.990196.164884@onceler.kciLink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Archive-Number: 200208/96 X-Sequence-Number: 724 On Tue, Aug 13, 2002 at 08:26:53AM -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > That is not, by the way, a criticism. It has some useful advantages -- for > THEM. But I see relationships like this should be two-way streets, not > vampires. And without any real advantage in return, what's in it for the > content providers? So I'm not interested... - for "content providers" nothing except wider readership -- more eyeballs - for "transport providers" (mailing-list owners SMTP vs newsserver maintainers NNTP) the advantage is that the mailing list can deliver one copy of the message which is then shared by everyone subscribed to the "newsgroup" Adi From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 10:26:06 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31DF195B34 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7DHNos18388; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:23:50 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:23:50 -0700 Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Aditya Cc: List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020813171802.GB87906@mighty.grot.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/97 X-Sequence-Number: 725 On 8/13/02 10:18 AM, "Aditya" wrote: > gmane gives people read-only access using a different transport -- do you, or > do you wish to restrict read-access to web-based mailing list archives? Actually, yes. Here's why. Someone on my list decides to "go troll". I kick him off my list. He decides to get stupid about it, so he starts reading the archives and sending abusive responses privately. I blackhole his IP address from my archives. So now he simply signs up for gmane and continues abusing my users via private email by reading the archives on gmane. What's my option? Cutting gmane off? I've lost control of being able to police my own list. And lest you think this is a theoretical situation, I've been there. And you can argue that if it's private e-mail that it's not my responsibility if you want. You're welcome to believe that, I don't. If someone's being abused because they're participating in a mail list I run, I have responsibility. YMMV. I won't duck that responsibility. > gmane is an evolving service, and as such has become much more sensitive > (rather than openly trusting that public mailing lists are well, public) Lest people think I'm "anti-gmane", I'm not. I think what they're doing is fascinating, and I'm keeping an eye on it. It has some very interesting uses, I think. I'm fascinated to see someone "reinvent" NNTP outside of usenet (I've long said usenet is dead, but NNTP isn't -- gmane seems to be proving me right). I just don't want it attached to my lists. And under some circumstances, I might change my mind on that down the road. > You always have the option of asking gmane not to "carry" your mailing list, Well, unfortunately, the first I found out about this was when I had to ask them to StOP carrying them, because they'd started without asking first, but... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ IMHO: Jargon. Acronym for In My Humble Opinion. Used to flag as an opinion something that is clearly from context an opinion to everyone except the mentally dense. Opinions flagged by IMHO are actually rarely humble. IMHO. (source: third unabridged dictionary of chuqui-isms). From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 10:36:50 2002 Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9F35195B34 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from apache@localhost) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g7DHZua16107; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:35:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-Authentication-Warning: grassyhill.org: apache set sender to tneff@grassyhill.net using -f Received: from 204.60.148.242 (SquirrelMail authenticated user tneff) by grassyhill.net with HTTP; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1933.204.60.148.242.1029260156.squirrel@grassyhill.net> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane From: "Tom Neff" To: In-Reply-To: References: X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.5) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/98 X-Sequence-Number: 726 Chuq Von Rospach said: > So now he simply signs up for gmane and continues abusing my users via > private email by reading the archives on gmane. What's my option? > Cutting gmane off? ... Another option is cloaking your posters' email addresses in the outgoing list, and hence in archives like Gmane's. I think the new Mailman sports this feature. As a list manager I do not ordinarily construe it as my responsibility to shield members of public lists from receiving private email. There are too many ways it can happen. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 10:37:15 2002 Received: from mighty.grot.org (mighty.grot.org [204.182.56.120]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49BA7195F9D for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mighty.grot.org (Postfix, from userid 515) id D4ADB5D1C; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:36:26 -0700 From: Aditya To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane Message-ID: <20020813173626.GB88509@mighty.grot.org> References: <20020813171802.GB87906@mighty.grot.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Archive-Number: 200208/99 X-Sequence-Number: 727 On Tue, Aug 13, 2002 at 10:23:50AM -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 8/13/02 10:18 AM, "Aditya" wrote: > > > gmane gives people read-only access using a different transport -- do you, or > > do you wish to restrict read-access to web-based mailing list archives? > > Actually, yes. Here's why. > > Someone on my list decides to "go troll". I kick him off my list. He decides > to get stupid about it, so he starts reading the archives and sending > abusive responses privately. I blackhole his IP address from my archives. what do you do if they switch to using a different IP address? wouldn't "email address obfuscation" be an easier first-step? > So now he simply signs up for gmane and continues abusing my users via > private email by reading the archives on gmane. What's my option? Cutting > gmane off? I've lost control of being able to police my own list. so does the "email address obfuscation" approach adopted by gmane not help in this case? > > You always have the option of asking gmane not to "carry" your mailing list, > > Well, unfortunately, the first I found out about this was when I had to ask > them to StOP carrying them, because they'd started without asking first, > but... yeah, that was a M.O. that was a bit too trusting, and gmane has become more careful about that so hopefully such occurances should be rare. Adi From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 10:39:21 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84ED0195FBB for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17efcn-0004Iv-00 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:38:33 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17efcm-0004Ik-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:38:32 -0700 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Aditya , List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:23:50 PDT." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:38:32 -0700 Message-ID: <16537.1029260312@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: chuqui@plaidworks.com, aditya@grot.org, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: +qmjrzZW5c3FPSlibakwByjqIy8 X-Archive-Number: 200208/100 X-Sequence-Number: 728 On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:23:50 -0700 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 8/13/02 10:18 AM, "Aditya" wrote: > Lest people think I'm "anti-gmane", I'm not. I think what they're > doing is fascinating, and I'm keeping an eye on it. It has some very > interesting uses, I think. I'm fascinated to see someone "reinvent" > NNTP outside of usenet (I've long said usenet is dead, but NNTP isn't > -- gmane seems to be proving me right). I'll freely confess that my first and still remaining reaction to GMane is: Ooooo, I have to do that here... Why not do it at Gmane directly? The same control issues you mention. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 10:53:26 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F2E195B34 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7DHnns20928; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:49:49 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:49:48 -0700 Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane From: Chuq Von Rospach To: J C Lawrence Cc: Aditya , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <16537.1029260312@kanga.nu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/101 X-Sequence-Number: 729 On 8/13/02 10:38 AM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: > I'll freely confess that my first and still remaining reaction to GMane > is: > > Ooooo, I have to do that here... Yes. Exactly. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ No! No! Dead girl, OFF the table! -- Shrek From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 10:56:33 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED32F195B34 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7DHsGs21522; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:54:16 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:54:16 -0700 Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Aditya Cc: List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020813173626.GB88509@mighty.grot.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/102 X-Sequence-Number: 730 On 8/13/02 10:36 AM, "Aditya" wrote: >> Someone on my list decides to "go troll". I kick him off my list. He decides >> to get stupid about it, so he starts reading the archives and sending >> abusive responses privately. I blackhole his IP address from my archives. > > what do you do if they switch to using a different IP address? wouldn't "email > address obfuscation" be an easier first-step? If the troll decides to send me on a fox hunt, so be it. I've done that, too. I've usually won (the longest battle went 18 months before I found him). There are lots of things a troll can do if they want. Gmane makes it easy to do things that I can't control, because gmane isn't under my control. > so does the "email address obfuscation" approach adopted by gmane not help in > this case? Depends on if gmane is willing to carry out individual bans or not, if the troll can mail through the obfuscation because he's a member of gmane and I can't get him stopped, I have a problem. And yes, maybe all this can be worked out. But as administrator, I don't have the time or energy to do that, or the interest. Especially since there's little benefit for me and my people. And if the gmane.org administrators started having to police 200 lists 40 different ways because of each site wants it done some way, they'll quickly hit the "can't handle the complexity" problem and it'll break down. Gmane works because it depends on all of the sites "out there" feeding into it accepting how gmane wants to do things. If gmane had to start adapting to the policies of all the sites it's taking feeds from, it'd fall into chaos amazingly fast. It comes down to a loss of control. And not being worth my time to add gmane to me "web of trust". I'd best we could do it, actually. I just don't find it worht the time and energy. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ IMHO: Jargon. Acronym for In My Humble Opinion. Used to flag as an opinion something that is clearly from context an opinion to everyone except the mentally dense. Opinions flagged by IMHO are actually rarely humble. IMHO. (source: third unabridged dictionary of chuqui-isms). From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 10:57:13 2002 Received: from yertle.kciLink.com (yertle.kcilink.com [216.194.193.105]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A42F195FD5 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onceler.kciLink.com (onceler.kciLink.com [216.194.193.106]) by yertle.kciLink.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4102178B for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by onceler.kciLink.com (Postfix, from userid 100) id E5AE43D15; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:55:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Vivek Khera MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15705.18472.649515.837435@onceler.kciLink.com> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:55:52 -0400 To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane In-Reply-To: <16537.1029260312@kanga.nu> References: <16537.1029260312@kanga.nu> X-Mailer: VM 7.04 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid X-Archive-Number: 200208/103 X-Sequence-Number: 731 >>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence writes: JCL> I'll freely confess that my first and still remaining reaction to GMane JCL> is: JCL> Ooooo, I have to do that here... JCL> Why not do it at Gmane directly? The same control issues you mention. So simple, I did it a while ago for my own personal use on some high volume lists. The only support it requires is that the list in question lets me post using my own address without having to receive copies. Either that's via an open posting policy (eg, freebsd.org lists) or via a MLM that lets you subscribe in nomail mode (eg, the postgresql.org mailing lists). The steps to do it are outlined in my "mail2news" script on the CPAN (www.cpan.org). From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 10:59:39 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B101195F9D for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7DHvas21827; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:57:37 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:57:36 -0700 Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Tom Neff , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1933.204.60.148.242.1029260156.squirrel@grassyhill.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/104 X-Sequence-Number: 732 On 8/13/02 10:35 AM, "Tom Neff" wrote: > Another option is cloaking your posters' email addresses in the outgoing > list, and hence in archives like Gmane's. I think the new Mailman sports > this feature. Yup. Been involved in that discussion. It's a necessary direction. I am, unfortunately, also starting to rethink my position on being anti-whitelist. With some grumbles. Damn spammers. > As a list manager I do not ordinarily construe it as my responsibility to > shield members of public lists from receiving private email. There are too > many ways it can happen. My feeling is if it happens because of a list I run, I have some responsibility. Doesn't mean I CAN fix it, but it does mean I feel I should try. It depends on each situation, of course, also. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 11:03:49 2002 Received: from mighty.grot.org (mighty.grot.org [204.182.56.120]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9129D195F9D for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mighty.grot.org (Postfix, from userid 515) id 0FD2D5D1C; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:02:55 -0700 From: Aditya To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane Message-ID: <20020813180255.GB89768@mighty.grot.org> References: <20020813173626.GB88509@mighty.grot.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Archive-Number: 200208/105 X-Sequence-Number: 733 On Tue, Aug 13, 2002 at 10:54:16AM -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > so does the "email address obfuscation" approach adopted by gmane not help in > > this case? > > Depends on if gmane is willing to carry out individual bans or not, if the > troll can mail through the obfuscation because he's a member of gmane and I > can't get him stopped, I have a problem. Just for clarification, just because you read a mailing list through gmane does NOT mean your posts to the mailing list have a From or other headers that pruport to come from gmane -- gmane posts as "you" and you have to be subscribed to the mailing list. (Of course someone could spoof their mail as coming from the gmane subscribed user...hm, how many MLAs have "read-only" subscription modes?) I understand your issues with loss of control and the amount of time you need to spend to accomodate things like gmane, however it does serve a very strong need for a large number of people (witness the wide variety of mailing lists on gmane) and so please don't dismiss it without due consideration. I would like list-managers to be on gmane. Thanks, Adi From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 11:08:51 2002 Received: from web10005.mail.yahoo.com (web10005.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.41]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 47DDB195F34 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020813180803.97388.qmail@web10005.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.22.71.5] by web10005.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:08:03 PDT Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:08:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Reply-To: unixsysadm@yahoo.com Subject: Terminology: Definitions Please. To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200208/106 X-Sequence-Number: 734 Hello, >> Someone on my list decides to "go troll". "Troll" and "go troll" are new terms to me in the context of mailing lists. Would someone kindly enlighten me as to their meaning? Thank you - Don __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 11:16:34 2002 Received: from above.proper.com (mail.proper.com [208.184.76.45]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C921B195F6A for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [165.227.249.18] (165-227-249-18.client.dsl.net [165.227.249.18]) by above.proper.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g7DIFhw23147 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:15:42 -0700 To: List Managers Mailing list From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Archive-Number: 200208/107 X-Sequence-Number: 735 At 11:41 AM -0400 8/13/02, Charlie Summers wrote: > Charlie (who wonders what happens if someone posts _there_ - do > they have an address subscribed that sends it to > Great Circle? Or does it only appear on YahooGroups?) To answer your question based in experimental evidence (that is, I tried it this morning): they allow you to think you have posted to the list. That is, I said I wanted to post a response to your message, and they gave me a way to do it, and I sent it in, and the response I wrote appears neither on their UI to the list nor on this list itself. Hopefully other interfaces to mailing lists handle this interaction better than Yahoo... --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 11:27:03 2002 Received: from penguin.postmodern.com (penguin.postmodern.com [216.240.39.2]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43B23195FDC for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heathrow.postmodern.com (heathrow.postmodern.com [216.240.39.13]) by penguin.postmodern.com (8.11.1/8.11.1-mcb-20001119) with ESMTP id g7DIQAu12440; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:26:10 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:26:12 -0700 Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) Cc: Charlie Summers To: List Managers List From: "Michael C. Berch" In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <250FBC1C-AEEA-11D6-9392-003065F94B0A@postmodern.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) X-Archive-Number: 200208/108 X-Sequence-Number: 736 On Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 08:41 AM, Charlie Summers wrote: > I can't speak to gmane, but the YahooGroups ship has already sailed. > See: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/list-managers/ > > [...] > Understand, if you or Brent initiated this, that's one thing (I > don't know > _why_ you would, but your-list-your-call); if on the other hand you > didn't > and were unaware of its existance until now, they (or one of their > members) > have hijacked this list without the listmaster's approval, which is > IMHO a > Bad Thing. In that case, it's improper at best, and illegal at worst. We didn't, and it's going to get the axe. I just learned about this a short while ago. I'll figure out some way to communicate this to the Yahoo group members, and invite them to subscribe directly. -- Michael From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 11:36:52 2002 Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05AB195FC3 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 24-205-154-98.riv-res.charterpipeline.net ([24.205.154.98] helo=lehel.goldmark.private) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17egWS-0001LA-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:36:04 -0700 Received: from jeffrey (helo=localhost) by lehel.goldmark.private with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 17egVk-0001IL-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:35:20 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:35:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-X-Sender: jeffrey@lehel.goldmark.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Terminology: Definitions Please. In-Reply-To: <20020813180803.97388.qmail@web10005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/109 X-Sequence-Number: 737 On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Don wrote: > >> Someone on my list decides to "go troll". > "Troll" and "go troll" are new terms to me in the context of > mailing lists. Would someone kindly enlighten me as to their > meaning? They mean the same things as they do on Usenet. There are varieties of trolling, but basically it is to play innocent and post exceedingly provokative messages in an attempt to start a "flame war". But it can mean other things in list context. Someone who percistantly insists on their right to post off topic, even if other list members are getting annoyed and are leaving. I've had a couple of those, and I eventually put them on manaul approval for their posts. When they unsubscribed and resubscribed to do the same under other addresses, I eventually had to put an IP block under manual approval. Whether he was deliberately trolling or being innocently distruptive (but uneducable) is something I'll never know. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 12:01:43 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (oldradio.net [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6EC1959F1 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (lof@chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23536; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:00:51 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Envelope-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:59:25 -0400 To: Paul Hoffman / IMC , List Managers Mailing list From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane X-Archive-Number: 200208/110 X-Sequence-Number: 738 At 2:15 PM -0400 8/13/02, Paul Hoffman / IMC is rumored to have typed: > That is, I said I wanted to post a response to your > message, and they gave me a way to do it, and I sent it in, and the > response I wrote appears neither on their UI to the list nor on this > list itself. But _I_ got your "posting;" I assume you didn't get the full-header forward I sent to you using the phoffman-AT-proper.com address you used in your "post?" (Contact me privately and I'll resend to your imc.org address, if you'd like; the only really interesting header field was the User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 field, giving proof to J C Lawrence's earlier speculation.) Charlie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 12:28:38 2002 Received: from mail.wooz.org (dsl093-082-039.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.82.39]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C46D1959E3 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.wooz.org (Postfix, from userid 889) id 6C495D3800; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:27:46 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15705.23985.593392.121382@anthem.wooz.org> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:27:45 -0400 To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane References: <16537.1029260312@kanga.nu> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) X-Attribution: BAW X-Oblique-Strategy: Feed the recording back out of the medium X-Url: http://barry.wooz.org X-Archive-Number: 200208/111 X-Sequence-Number: 739 >>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence writes: JCL> I'll freely confess that my first and still remaining JCL> reaction to GMane is: JCL> Ooooo, I have to do that here... JCL> Why not do it at Gmane directly? The same control issues you JCL> mention. I'll quickly point people to TwistedMatrix . Twisted is a framework for network protocols. It comes with SMTP, NNTP, HTTP, etc. I haven't spend much time with it, but a few weeks ago I wanted to do some testing of Mailman's news/mail gateway without going through the hassle of bring up a traditional nntpd, or using some *.test public n.g. The cool thing was that it took literally 3 commands to bring up a fully functional nntp server. It might also serve as a nice framework for bringing up a local gmane-alike. Of course Twisted's written in Python, so that's an advantage . -Barry From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 12:36:50 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (oldradio.net [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF661959E3 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (lof@chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25382; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:35:39 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Envelope-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020813180255.GB89768@mighty.grot.org> References: <20020813173626.GB88509@mighty.grot.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:13:50 -0400 To: Aditya From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane Cc: List Managers Mailing list X-Archive-Number: 200208/112 X-Sequence-Number: 740 At 2:02 PM -0400 8/13/02, Aditya is rumored to have typed: > I would like list-managers to be on gmane. If all you want to do is read list-managers using a newsreader, why not set up a private server on a spare linux box and use any of the various mail-to-news kludges to pump the mail into it? I honestly don't understand the arguments here; seems to me there are two entirely seperate issues: 1) the gmane _concept_ is fine, but ain't nuthin' new; mail-to-news and news-to-mail gateways ain't that hard to find (or kludge together, for that matter), and: 2) there's nothing wrong with a centralized _server_ like gmane archiving mailing lists that the list manager permits onto the NNTP server. It is only a bad thing when the list manager is not asked or refuses permission, which happened to some on this list with gmane. (If the list manager chooses to allow the subscribership to vote, or makes the decision himself is up to the specific list manager and list. The list manager still speaks for the list in issues like this.) A perfect example of this is the YahooGroups nee eGroups archives; if the list managers weren't aware that it existed, it is at the very minimum improper and contrary to netiquette...probably illegal, too. I hold a copyright on this missive at the moment of creation, and by sending to GreatCircle I give them implicit license to distribute and archive it - I do NOT give Yahoo! license to do ANYTHING with it, and so they are violating my copyright if they are re-distributing and archiving it without the permission of Great Circle. (But then, I've been pretty clear about my low opinion of Yahoo!, so I'd gripe if they gave me a cupcake.) No one I read ever suggested the gmane _concept_ was by itself a bad thing. If a list manager prefers not to have his list on someone else's _server,_ however, that server should not archive it and I don't understand how anyone could argue _that_ wasn't proper, whether served by NNTP, HTTP, or Gopher. And it's easy to set up an internal NNTP server and a mail-to-news gateway internally, so you can read any list you want with a newsreader if you're determined to do so with lists who choose not to participate with gmane. So someone enlighten me as to the current argument again? Charlie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 12:49:45 2002 Received: from mighty.grot.org (mighty.grot.org [204.182.56.120]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B021959E3 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mighty.grot.org (Postfix, from userid 515) id E820A5D1C; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:48:50 -0700 From: Aditya To: Charlie Summers Cc: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane Message-ID: <20020813194850.GB93188@mighty.grot.org> References: <20020813173626.GB88509@mighty.grot.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Archive-Number: 200208/113 X-Sequence-Number: 741 There isn't an argument, just a discussion as to what "threats" gmane does and doesn't represent. Any and all lists that do not wish to be archived by gmane should not be archived. If that decision for list-managers is not taken by a vote of list members then ignore my +1 for archiving list-managers on gmane. gmane or the person who suggested list-managers to gmane should make sure permission is granted before subscription and it was an oversight not to. > If all you want to do is read list-managers using a newsreader, why not > set up a private server on a spare linux box and use any of the various > mail-to-news kludges to pump the mail into it? been there, done that since 1995, and honestly it's something I'd rather have someone else do, like gmane. Adi On Tue, Aug 13, 2002 at 03:13:50PM -0400, Charlie Summers wrote: > At 2:02 PM -0400 8/13/02, Aditya is rumored to have typed: > > > I would like list-managers to be on gmane. > > If all you want to do is read list-managers using a newsreader, why not > set up a private server on a spare linux box and use any of the various > mail-to-news kludges to pump the mail into it? > > I honestly don't understand the arguments here; seems to me there are two > entirely seperate issues: > > 1) the gmane _concept_ is fine, but ain't nuthin' new; mail-to-news and > news-to-mail gateways ain't that hard to find (or kludge together, for that > matter), and: > > 2) there's nothing wrong with a centralized _server_ like gmane archiving > mailing lists that the list manager permits onto the NNTP server. It is only > a bad thing when the list manager is not asked or refuses permission, which > happened to some on this list with gmane. (If the list manager chooses to > allow the subscribership to vote, or makes the decision himself is up to the > specific list manager and list. The list manager still speaks for the list in > issues like this.) A perfect example of this is the YahooGroups nee eGroups > archives; if the list managers weren't aware that it existed, it is at the > very minimum improper and contrary to netiquette...probably illegal, too. I > hold a copyright on this missive at the moment of creation, and by sending to > GreatCircle I give them implicit license to distribute and archive it - I do > NOT give Yahoo! license to do ANYTHING with it, and so they are violating my > copyright if they are re-distributing and archiving it without the permission > of Great Circle. (But then, I've been pretty clear about my low opinion of > Yahoo!, so I'd gripe if they gave me a cupcake.) > > No one I read ever suggested the gmane _concept_ was by itself a bad > thing. If a list manager prefers not to have his list on someone else's > _server,_ however, that server should not archive it and I don't understand > how anyone could argue _that_ wasn't proper, whether served by NNTP, HTTP, or > Gopher. And it's easy to set up an internal NNTP server and a mail-to-news > gateway internally, so you can read any list you want with a newsreader if > you're determined to do so with lists who choose not to participate with > gmane. > > So someone enlighten me as to the current argument again? > > Charlie > > From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 15:30:47 2002 Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 30800195AA0 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4972 invoked by uid 50); 13 Aug 2002 22:29:57 -0000 To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane References: <9539.1029218646@kanga.nu> <15705.5460.990196.164884@onceler.kciLink.com> <20020813165637.GC86645@mighty.grot.org> In-Reply-To: <20020813165637.GC86645@mighty.grot.org> (Aditya's message of "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:56:37 -0700") From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:29:56 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 50 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090008 (Oort Gnus v0.08) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter, sparc-sun-solaris2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200208/114 X-Sequence-Number: 742 Aditya writes: > Uh, I think this is a bit of an exaggeration -- gmane isn't tied to any > sort of usenet feed and hasn't leaked into "regular ol" usenet. This is, unfortunately, a matter of time, given how many people use suck or similar software to pull down any newsgroup they're interested in reading from its private servers and end up reinjecting it into the regular flow of news. newsfeed:~/log> grep ' gmane' unwanted.log 2 gmane.comp.openoffice.announce.features 2 gmane.mail.ezmlm 1 gmane.test 1 gmane.network.openssh.announce It's already starting. > gmane isn't the only or the first entity to funnel mailing lists into an > NNTP spool/server, it's just the most public. There are *tons* of people doing this, many of whom are tossing the results out to the world. Hierarchies like mailing.*, mail.*, muc.lists.*, fa.*, and the like abound. In case anyone thinks that people are not already doing this with this mailing list: newsfeed:~/log> grep 'list-managers' unwanted.log 3 clinet.list.list-managers 1 info.list-managers 1 mentorg.list.list-managers > There are several advantages to reading mailing lists via NNTP (note > that I am saying nothing about usenet) even beyond sucky MUAs. This is why people do it. When lots of people are doing something, it's generally for a reason. To add to and support your reasons, one of those reasons is that news reading software is massively better at reading large, threaded discussions than all but the very best mailing list software. Another reason is that news searching is significantly better. A third reason is that lurking is much easier and much more convenient. A fourth reason is that being able to review the recent postings to a mailing list is a very valuable thing to be able to do, and web archives for mailing lists are essentially without exception completely unmitigated disasters. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 15:36:11 2002 Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 32E10195AA0 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 5015 invoked by uid 50); 13 Aug 2002 22:35:22 -0000 To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane References: <20020813173626.GB88509@mighty.grot.org> In-Reply-To: (Charlie Summers's message of "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:13:50 -0400") From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:35:22 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090008 (Oort Gnus v0.08) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter, sparc-sun-solaris2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200208/115 X-Sequence-Number: 743 Charlie Summers writes: > If all you want to do is read list-managers using a newsreader, why > not set up a private server on a spare linux box and use any of the > various mail-to-news kludges to pump the mail into it? Because it's a reasonable amount of work, and the Internet is, thank heavens, one of the few places in the world where community still thrives and people think in terms of saving each other work and helping each other out rather than making anyone who wants what they have pay for it. (This sounds harsh, and please know that I'm not being harsh *at you*, but instead feel extremely bitter that there are so few areas like that left in modern life.) So when someone goes to that work, they feel like "hey, you know, with only a bit more work I could toss this over the fence and let other people use it without having to go to the same amount of work." This is a laudible instinct that does them credit and should be encouraged, although with the specific case of gating mailing lists it's also something that people sometimes have to be talked into thinking twice about doing because there are other issues involved. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 15:47:56 2002 Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D5C2195AA0 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 24-205-154-98.riv-res.charterpipeline.net ([24.205.154.98] helo=lehel.goldmark.private) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ehuD-0007FN-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:04:41 -0700 Received: from jeffrey (helo=localhost) by lehel.goldmark.private with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 17ehtU-0001Ky-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:03:56 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:03:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-X-Sender: jeffrey@lehel.goldmark.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane In-Reply-To: <20020813194850.GB93188@mighty.grot.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/116 X-Sequence-Number: 744 On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Aditya wrote: > gmane or the person who suggested list-managers to gmane should make sure > permission is granted before subscription and it was an oversight not to. I only "suggested" it here, merely by posting the query that started this thread. I most certainly did not sign it up without the list manager's permission. It might be useful for gmane to have a mechanism (maybe it does) for a list manager to pre-emptively say not to honor requests to add the list. (I'm not advocating opt-out, but just a mechanism that can help reduce errors.) > Any and all lists that do not wish to be archived by gmane should not be > archived. If that decision for list-managers is not taken by a vote of list > members then ignore my +1 for archiving list-managers on gmane. Me, too. If the list manager is polling subscribers on this question, I would like to see it added to gmane. But the list manager is under no obligation to poll subscribers. I do understand and sympathize with the points about "control", although I don't find that a big issue for this list. But I'm happy to leave things to the list managers discretion. > > If all you want to do is read list-managers using a newsreader, why not > > set up a private server on a spare linux box and use any of the various > > mail-to-news kludges to pump the mail into it? > > been there, done that since 1995, and honestly it's something I'd rather have > someone else do, like gmane. Also there may be subscribers who don't have the skills or resources to do that. Gmane provides a useful service, at the cost of giving up some control. It's up to the list owner to make the choice (and he appearently has). -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 13 15:52:45 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (oldradio.net [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92919195AA0 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (lof@chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10988; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:51:50 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: (Charlie Summers's message of "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:13:50 -0400") <20020813173626.GB88509@mighty.grot.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:49:54 -0400 To: Russ Allbery , List Managers Mailing list From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane X-Archive-Number: 200208/117 X-Sequence-Number: 745 At 6:35 PM -0400 8/13/02, Russ Allbery is rumored to have typed: > So when someone goes to that work, they feel like "hey, you know, with > only a bit more work I could toss this over the fence and let other people > use it without having to go to the same amount of work." You missed my point...or more accurately, I didn't make it terribly well. What I wanted to get across was that, if you (at that point refering to Adi, who said, "I would like list-managers to be on gmane,") want to read list-managers with a newsreader, and the list managers don't choose to participate in that system (for the various reasons people have articulated here, or others we haven't seen yet), it's still a simple thing to accomplish locally. Charlie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Aug 14 12:54:29 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (oldradio.net [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E10C7195AD8 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (lof@chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00403; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:53:37 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Sender: admin@lofcom.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:53:31 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Charlie Summers Subject: Error 129? X-Archive-Number: 200208/118 X-Sequence-Number: 746 Folks; On one of the digested mail lists today, I'm suddenly getting a boatload of "554 Error 129" bounces, from different servers all over the place. Can I assume this is SpamBuster, SpamBlocker, or whatever-the-heck, determining that something in this issue is spam? Charlie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Aug 14 15:24:59 2002 Received: from penguin.postmodern.com (penguin.postmodern.com [216.240.39.2]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0FF5195AB8 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heathrow.postmodern.com (heathrow.postmodern.com [216.240.39.13]) by penguin.postmodern.com (8.11.1/8.11.1-mcb-20001119) with ESMTP id g7EMO5u07502 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:24:05 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:24:12 -0700 Subject: Re: Error 129? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) From: "Michael C. Berch" To: List Managers List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <8F0C05F4-AFD4-11D6-9392-003065F94B0A@postmodern.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) X-Archive-Number: 200208/119 X-Sequence-Number: 747 On Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 12:53 PM, Charlie Summers wrote: > On one of the digested mail lists today, I'm suddenly getting a > boatload > of "554 Error 129" bounces, from different servers all over the place. > > Can I assume this is SpamBuster, SpamBlocker, or whatever-the-heck, > determining that something in this issue is spam? It is definitely not either SpamAssassin or SpamBouncer, both of which merely mark up the message for later processing by Procmail or a MUA. Neither should be giving an error at the SMTP layer. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 15 00:09:58 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0DAB195AB6 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17fEkc-0002D2-00 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:08:58 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17fEkc-0002Ct-00; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:08:58 -0700 To: "Michael C. Berch" Cc: List Managers List Subject: Re: Error 129? In-Reply-To: Message from "Michael C. Berch" of "Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:24:12 PDT." <8F0C05F4-AFD4-11D6-9392-003065F94B0A@postmodern.com> References: <8F0C05F4-AFD4-11D6-9392-003065F94B0A@postmodern.com> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:08:58 -0700 Message-ID: <8486.1029395338@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: mcb@postmodern.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: Up4gMk/dPLP+2Iru2V31+qHusUc X-Archive-Number: 200208/120 X-Sequence-Number: 748 On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:24:12 -0700 Michael C Berch wrote: > It is definitely not either SpamAssassin or SpamBouncer, both of which > merely mark up the message for later processing by Procmail or a MUA. > Neither should be giving an error at the SMTP layer. SpamAssassin can be run at the MTA layer, providing hints to the MTA on SPAM qualities at receipt time for immediate bouncing. This is not an unusual configuration. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 15 00:50:48 2002 Received: from penguin.postmodern.com (penguin.postmodern.com [216.240.39.2]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D06BB195AB6 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heathrow.postmodern.com (heathrow.postmodern.com [216.240.39.13]) by penguin.postmodern.com (8.11.1/8.11.1-mcb-20001119) with ESMTP id g7F7npu11883; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:49:51 -0700 Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:49:54 -0700 Subject: Re: Error 129? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) Cc: List Managers List To: J C Lawrence From: "Michael C. Berch" In-Reply-To: <8486.1029395338@kanga.nu> Message-Id: <968D12C4-B023-11D6-993D-003065F94B0A@postmodern.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) X-Archive-Number: 200208/121 X-Sequence-Number: 749 On Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 12:08 AM, J C Lawrence wrote: > On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:24:12 -0700 > Michael C Berch wrote: >> It is definitely not either SpamAssassin or SpamBouncer, both of which >> merely mark up the message for later processing by Procmail or a MUA. >> Neither should be giving an error at the SMTP layer. > > SpamAssassin can be run at the MTA layer, providing hints to the MTA on > SPAM qualities at receipt time for immediate bouncing. This is not an > unusual configuration. Oh... right! The spamass-milter. Forgot about that. It should not generate "Error 129", so far as I know, though. --MCB From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 15 07:40:42 2002 Received: from dagger.nd.edu (dagger.nd.edu [129.74.250.101]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330EF195FF8 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mshield (shield2.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.49]) by dagger.nd.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g7FEdocw017054 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:39:51 -0500 (EST) Received: FROM nd.edu BY mshield ; Thu Aug 15 09:38:56 2002 -0500 Message-ID: <3D5BBD36.1020200@nd.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:39:50 -0500 From: Paul Russell Organization: University of Notre Dame User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0rc2) Gecko/20020618 Netscape/7.0b1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Aditya Cc: Chuq Von Rospach , List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Listing list-managers on gmane References: <20020813173626.GB88509@mighty.grot.org> <20020813180255.GB89768@mighty.grot.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/122 X-Sequence-Number: 750 LISTSERV(r) allows the owner of a list to set individual subscribers to NOPOST, and a list can be configured so that the default subscription mode includes NOPOST and/or NOMAIL. I am the administrator of a LISTSERV server which hosts over 4,000 lists, the owner or co-owner of several lists on that server, and the co-owner of the SPAM-L list hosted by lsoft.com. Aditya wrote: > ...hm, how many MLAs have "read-only" subscription modes?) -- Paul Russell Senior System Administrator O&E Messaging Services Team University of Notre Dame From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 00:59:44 2002 Received: from tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts23.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.185]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBEE4195AA6 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 00:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from b8q7201.listhost.net ([64.230.144.147]) by tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020816075744.VYMV13064.tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net@b8q7201.listhost.net> for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:57:44 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816034301.0297a6c0@pop.slingshotmedia.com> X-Sender: sharonlh@listhost.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:57:26 -0400 To: From: Sharon Tucci Subject: Open relay probe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/123 X-Sequence-Number: 751 We received on a few of our servers bounces to postmaster@[ip]. Someone from a pacbell.net IP 63.203.10.230 faked our postmaster@hostname to send email to a few (apparently fake) addresses at different blacklists. Obviously, the emails bounced back to our postmaster address. Anyone have any clue about what this test is supposed to accomplish? Sharon From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 09:17:06 2002 Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.176.124.156]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD5A195F20 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toshiba.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F61C351F8 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:16:14 -0400 (EDT) X-America-Has-Resolve: yes X-Message-Flag: Microsoft Outlook is insecure. Upgrade your Mail Program Now! Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816120534.28ea0d08@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:12:26 -0400 To: From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: Open relay probe In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816034301.0297a6c0@pop.slingshotmedia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-328A37AE; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/124 X-Sequence-Number: 752 Sounds like a plain old relay test - if they can force mail through your system and have it delivered to a third party, you are an open relay. There were some servers at some level that would take mail with a local postmaster origin by IP address and forward it. The spammers learned this, and started using it. Current software has this hole closed. Whether this was done by a spammer looking for a relay, or because a spammer had found one and was exploiting it, and your address had been reported as an open relay, and the people at, say, ordb were testing before they listed you is almost irrelevant.. The point is that no matter what a third party asserts regarding origin address or destination, you should not relay mail from one third party to another. Your willingness to relay mail should be based on a stronger identification than simply asserting an RFC821 origin. At 03:57 AM 2002-08-16 -0400, Sharon Tucci wrote: >We received on a few of our servers bounces to postmaster@[ip]. Someone >from a pacbell.net IP 63.203.10.230 faked our postmaster@hostname to send >email to a few (apparently fake) addresses at different blacklists. >Obviously, the emails bounced back to our postmaster address. > >Anyone have any clue about what this test is supposed to accomplish? -- "Life does not cease to be funny when people die, any more than it ceases to be serious when they laugh." -- George Bernard Shaw. Nick Simicich - njs@scifi.squawk.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 10:02:57 2002 Received: from devonshire.cnchost.com (devonshire.concentric.net [207.155.248.12]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5364819610A for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (adsl-208-201-244-240.sonic.net [208.201.244.240]) by devonshire.cnchost.com id NAA16271; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:02:08 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20020815161849.03eac910@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:04:41 -0700 To: List Managers From: JC Dill Subject: The gmane issue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/125 X-Sequence-Number: 753 I just had the following discussion with someone who discovered his list was added to gmane without his permission. The following quote segment several emails into our discussion has text from me, him, and my reply: >>> A better analogy is the way search engine spiders walk the web looking >>> for content. What happens when the Google spider comes across your >>> site? If you don't want Google there, you need to indicate that with a >>> robots.txt file. IMHO, gmane is a lot like Google, and while they >>> should do a better job of proactively ensuring that it's OK for them to >>> mirror/archive lists, list owners need to do what website owners do (if >>> they don't want to be searched and indexed in search engines) and create >>> a type of robots.txt that tells gmane to go away. >> >>You are correct; this is a better analogy. Unfortunately, there is no >>standard way for a list owner to post a "no public mirrors" sign. > >No, there isn't. But in the meantime, I think it should be easily findable, >and should *at least* be in the welcome message so that if any other site >like gmane happens to subscribe, they should then immediately unsubscribe >and scrub their site of any trace of the list that forbids such mirroring. > >I think that if list owners do A and services like gmane do B it would >suffice for now. Not an ideal solution, but better than some of the others, >with a balance of responsibility on both sides for publicizing and >determining what the policy is. > >>> Would you support an RFC that addresses mirroring of mailing lists and >>> specifies a listname-mirrors.txt file that can be obtained from the list >>> server and which tells the mirror-to-be what the mirroring policy is for >>> the list in question? >> >>Would I support it? Yes. Will I write it? No. > >I wasn't asking you to write it. I just think it would be an acceptable >solution, and wanted your input. I'll toss it back to the listmanagers list >and see what they say. :-) So, my question to list-managers: Do you support the suggestion that list managers/owners have some responsibility (ala robots.txt) for telling those who wish to mirror or archive the list what the list rules are? If so, do you support the idea of this file being made available 1, 2, or all 3 of the following ways: A) As a separate file that can be requested from the list server (like an info file) via email; B) A file to be found on the list server's website (like robots.txt) if there is a website; and C) Included in the welcome message. and what should the format of this file look like? From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 10:10:28 2002 Received: from mighty.grot.org (mighty.grot.org [204.182.56.120]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30EDC195F22 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mighty.grot.org (Postfix, from userid 515) id 9581B5D1C; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:09:33 -0700 From: Aditya To: List Managers Subject: Re: The gmane issue Message-ID: <20020816170933.GA27771@mighty.grot.org> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020815161849.03eac910@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020815161849.03eac910@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Archive-Number: 200208/126 X-Sequence-Number: 754 On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 10:04:41AM -0700, JC Dill wrote: > So, my question to list-managers: Do you support the suggestion that list > managers/owners have some responsibility (ala robots.txt) for telling those > who wish to mirror or archive the list what the list rules are? yes. > If so, do you support the idea of this file being made available 1, 2, or > all 3 of the following ways: > > A) As a separate file that can be requested from the list server (like an > info file) via email; > B) A file to be found on the list server's website (like robots.txt) if > there is a website; and > C) Included in the welcome message. D) Included as a header AND a machine-parseable line in the body of the confirmation AND welcome message. > and what should the format of this file look like? Why not use similar syntax to the robots.txt file? Adi From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 10:33:15 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6A8196054 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17fkxV-0007jF-00 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:32:25 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17fkxV-0007j6-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:32:25 -0700 To: Aditya Cc: List Managers Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: Message from Aditya of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:09:33 PDT." <20020816170933.GA27771@mighty.grot.org> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020815161849.03eac910@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <20020816170933.GA27771@mighty.grot.org> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:32:25 -0700 Message-ID: <29703.1029519145@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: aditya@grot.org, List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: yKquZwaIzgRYv7/tw2yRul7khok X-Archive-Number: 200208/127 X-Sequence-Number: 755 On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:09:33 -0700 aditya wrote: > On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 10:04:41AM -0700, JC Dill wrote: >> If so, do you support the idea of this file being made available 1, >> 2, or all 3 of the following ways: >> A) As a separate file that can be requested from the list server >> (like an info file) via email; B) A file to be found on the list >> server's website (like robots.txt) if there is a website; and C) >> Included in the welcome message. > D) Included as a header AND a machine-parseable line in the body of > the confirmation AND welcome message. I pick #D. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 10:42:11 2002 Received: from tarsus.cisto.com (tarsus.cisto.com [195.97.240.29]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A685195F19 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-be-13-1-dialup-145.freesurf.ch [194.230.26.145]) by tarsus.cisto.com (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26304; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g7GHfDQ01002; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:41:13 +0200 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:41:13 +0200 Message-Id: <200208161741.g7GHfDQ01002@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: bwarsaw@python.org Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <15705.7174.992950.327047@anthem.wooz.org> (bwarsaw@python.org) Subject: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on gmane) References: <15705.5460.990196.164884@onceler.kciLink.com> <15705.7174.992950.327047@anthem.wooz.org> X-Archive-Number: 200208/128 X-Sequence-Number: 756 Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > Web archives generally suck That needs to be changed. (And no, I don't mean to imply that _you_ have to do it, if you don't feel like it :-) Greetings, Norbert. -- Founder & Steering Committee member of http://gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://norbert.ch List hosting with GNU Mailman on your own domain name http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 11:00:13 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5646195F19 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.255.128.224] (A17-219-194-240.apple.com [17.219.194.240]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7GHvii11610; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:57:45 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:56:57 -0700 Subject: Re: The gmane issue From: Chuq Von Rospach To: J C Lawrence , Aditya Cc: List Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <29703.1029519145@kanga.nu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/129 X-Sequence-Number: 757 On 8/16/02 10:32 AM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: >> D) Included as a header AND a machine-parseable line in the body of >> the confirmation AND welcome message. > > I pick #D. There's already a defacto standard of X-No-Archive for "do not archive this message". How about creating another header: X-No-Archive-List: (descriptive string). If that exists, then the string either explains the policy or points to a URL that explains the policy. If that exists, you don't archive that list without following the policy. Too simple? -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 11:06:17 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4237C195F80 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.255.128.224] (A17-219-194-240.apple.com [17.219.194.240]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7GI3si12090; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:03:54 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:03:56 -0700 Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Norbert Bollow , Barry Warsaw Cc: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200208161741.g7GHfDQ01002@quill.local> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/130 X-Sequence-Number: 758 >> Web archives generally suck > > That needs to be changed. > > (And no, I don't mean to imply that _you_ I probably shouldn't poke my head out of the foxhole, but... I've been muttering in my beer over this very issue, and I have some design ideas I plan on prototyping sometime down the road. I can't start the prototype until I finish my server upgrade, but once I do, maybe interested parties can crawl into a maillist somewhere and talk it over? -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 11:12:15 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (oldradio.net [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE463196070 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (lof@chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08949; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:10:58 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020815161849.03eac910@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:04:15 -0400 To: JC Dill , List Managers From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: The gmane issue X-Archive-Number: 200208/131 X-Sequence-Number: 759 At 1:04 PM -0400 8/16/02, JC Dill is rumored to have typed: > So, my question to list-managers: Do you support the suggestion that list > managers/owners have some responsibility (ala robots.txt) for telling those > who wish to mirror or archive the list what the list rules are? No. It is the responsibiliity of the archiver to ask permission. But then, I don't like the robots.txt file method, either, since I am a FIRM believer in opt-IN, not opt-OUT. Any time we blindly accept opt-OUT, it adds legitimacy to a flawed system. I maintain it is the responsibility of the web spider to ask permission to retain a cached copy of my copyrighted web site as well. (I am less restrictive in indexing by search engines, since my pages _are_ publically accessable, and indexing is the computer equivalent of "reading." But retaining or distributing a _copy_ without the copyright holder's permission is pretty clearly illegal in the United States according to the changes made to Title 17 of the United States Code by the draconian DMCA.) Charlie Summers From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 11:24:13 2002 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.1.73]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F8419623E for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ord351473 (localhost.panix.com [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BDC8E9C for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <008c01c24551$ae4c51e0$21985742@ord351473> From: "David W. Tamkin" To: "List Managers" References: Subject: Re: The gmane issue Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:20:30 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Archive-Number: 200208/132 X-Sequence-Number: 760 Chuq Von Rospach proposed, | How about creating another header: | | X-No-Archive-List: (descriptive string). | | If that exists, then the string either explains the policy or points to a | URL that explains the policy. If that exists, you don't archive that list | without following the policy. Perhaps X-No-Archive-List: (descriptive string) so that it can be detached from the rest of the message and still identify the list to which it pertains. Did list IDs ever make it to the RFC stage, though? From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 11:42:49 2002 Received: from tarsus.cisto.com (tarsus.cisto.com [195.97.240.29]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E274B195FF8 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-zh-12-2-dialup-183.freesurf.ch [194.230.199.183]) by tarsus.cisto.com (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27191; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g7GIfpv01594; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:41:51 +0200 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:41:51 +0200 Message-Id: <200208161841.g7GIfpv01594@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: aditya@grot.org Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <20020816170933.GA27771@mighty.grot.org> (message from Aditya on Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:09:33 -0700) Subject: Re: The gmane issue References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020815161849.03eac910@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <20020816170933.GA27771@mighty.grot.org> X-Archive-Number: 200208/133 X-Sequence-Number: 761 Aditya wrote: > D) Included as a header AND a machine-parseable line in the body of the > confirmation AND welcome message. Sounds very good > > and what should the format of this file look like? Here's a suggestion. I'll start with some examples Example 1 (just one line) List-Robots: * disallow * Example 2 (two lines) List-Robots: * disallow * List-Robots: gmane.org allow sterilized-*-archive Example 3 (two lines) List-Robots: * disallow * List-Robots: *.maillist.info allow subscribe In example 1, robots are supposed to simply leave the list alone. A robot which is subscribed for any reason should unsub immediately. In example 2, gmane.org (and only this site) is invited to create a "sterilized archive", i.e. an archive with all email addresses removed (so that it won't result in list members getting spammed). In example 3, robots from anyhost.maillist.info are invited to subscribe but not archive. All other robots are supposed to leave the list alone. So each line would start with "List-Robots:" and then three items: - a hostname field, where '*' is allowed as a wildcard - a verb, either "allow" or "disallow" - one of the following keywords, where again '*' is allowed as a wildcard: subscribe unsterilized-mangled-archive unsterilized-faithful-archive sterilized-mangled-archive sterilized-faithful-archive (In a mangled-archive, the site with the robot is allowed to mangle the messages in any way. In a faithful-archive, any site which hosts archives must provide a complete record of the flow of discussion on the list, with unmangled message text for each posting.) Greetings, Norbert. -- Founder & Steering Committee member of http://gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://norbert.ch List hosting with GNU Mailman on your own domain name http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 11:50:55 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A56DC196051 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7GInMi18020; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:49:22 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:49:25 -0700 Subject: Re: The gmane issue From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Charlie Summers , JC Dill , List Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/134 X-Sequence-Number: 762 On 8/16/02 11:04 AM, "Charlie Summers" wrote: > No. It is the responsibiliity of the archiver to ask permission. And robots.txt is the way you put the answer out there before they ask, so you (as admin) aren't constantly being interrupted with questions. > But then, I don't like the robots.txt file method, either, since I am a > FIRM believer in opt-IN, not opt-OUT. Any time we blindly accept opt-OUT, it > adds legitimacy to a flawed system. And how is google supposed to operate in your version of the universe? > (I am less restrictive in indexing by search engines, since > my pages _are_ publically accessable, and indexing is the computer equivalent > of "reading." But then you DO support robots.txt, because robots.txt is defined to define what they CAN do. > But retaining or distributing a _copy_ without the copyright > holder's permission is pretty clearly illegal in the United States according > to the changes made to Title 17 of the United States Code by the draconian > DMCA.) The sites that do this are exceeding the intent of robots.txt anyway, at least IMHO. I wouldn't blame robots.txt for this. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Very funny, Scotty. Now beam my clothes down here, will you? From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 11:54:05 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBD50195AC6 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7GIkAi17522; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:46:10 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:46:13 -0700 Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Chuq Von Rospach , Norbert Bollow , Barry Warsaw Cc: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/135 X-Sequence-Number: 763 On 8/16/02 11:03 AM, "Chuq Von Rospach" wrote: > prototype until I finish my server upgrade, but once I do, maybe interested > parties can crawl into a maillist somewhere and talk it over? Okay, a few of you are already volunteering to kibbitz. When I'm ready to move forward on this I'll announce on the list and set up a mail list ot talk it over on. (stay tuned) Chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 12:09:01 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C87E195FF8 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7GJ6ei21368; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:06:40 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:06:42 -0700 Subject: Re: The gmane issue From: Chuq Von Rospach To: "David W. Tamkin" , List Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <008c01c24551$ae4c51e0$21985742@ord351473> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/136 X-Sequence-Number: 764 On 8/16/02 11:20 AM, "David W. Tamkin" wrote: > X-No-Archive-List: (descriptive string) > > so that it can be detached from the rest of the message and still identify the > list to which it pertains. > Did list IDs ever make it to the RFC stage, though? Works for me. I believe list-id is now final. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 12:28:44 2002 Received: from repulse.cnchost.com (repulse.concentric.net [207.155.248.4]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DF46196011 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (adsl-208-201-244-240.sonic.net [208.201.244.240]) by repulse.cnchost.com id PAA17197; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:27:49 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20020816121305.0466feb0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:19:53 -0700 To: List Managers From: JC Dill Subject: Mailing List Mirror/Archive RFC? [Was Re: The gmane issue] In-Reply-To: <29703.1029519145@kanga.nu> References: <20020816170933.GA27771@mighty.grot.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20020815161849.03eac910@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <20020816170933.GA27771@mighty.grot.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/137 X-Sequence-Number: 765 On 10:32 AM 8/16/02, J C Lawrence wrote: >On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:09:33 -0700 >aditya wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 10:04:41AM -0700, JC Dill wrote: > > >>> If so, do you support the idea of this file being made available 1, >>> 2, or all 3 of the following ways: > >>> A) As a separate file that can be requested from the list server >>> (like an info file) via email; B) A file to be found on the list >>> server's website (like robots.txt) if there is a website; and C) >>> Included in the welcome message. > >> D) Included as a header AND a machine-parseable line in the body of >> the confirmation AND welcome message. > >I pick #D. Is that instead of A, B, and C, or in addition to? If "instead of", how would they learn about your policy *before* subscribing? I like D as an enhancement to C, but believe we should also have some way for a gmane-type of mirror/archive to query the list server *prior* to subscribing and learn what the policy is first, via an automated system. Is there interest in making this into an RFC? jc From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 12:46:17 2002 Received: from tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts23.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.185]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44B8195AC6 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from b8q7201.listhost.net ([64.230.169.105]) by tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020816194415.LAJV13064.tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net@b8q7201.listhost.net> for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:44:15 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816152832.02fd40a0@s2.listdeliver.com> X-Sender: sharonlh@listhost.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:42:42 -0400 To: From: Sharon Tucci Subject: Re: Open relay probe In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816120534.28ea0d08@127.0.0.1> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816034301.0297a6c0@pop.slingshotmedia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/138 X-Sequence-Number: 766 Thanks Nick, but the thing is --- other than the bounce coming back to our postmaster addresses, the emails did not touch our server. The SMTP of pacbell.net was used for sending them and not our server. It's like - if someone sent an email out under your return address using a third party SMTP and it went to invalid recipients - wouldn't you receive the bounces from it? When I looked at our logs, it showed that a number of different standard tests on open relays were performed all within the same time period by a black list maintainer. All of which failed because we have relaying fully closed. Personally, I see this bounced messages coming to us as a part of their tests as being spam when I see no relevance or purpose to their tests. I can't imagine that less than 99% of mail servers out there that have postmaster addresses properly configured wouldn't have the same results. I'm not trying to be argumentative with you --- just trying to figure out what the intent of the test really is. At 12:12 PM 8/16/02, Nick Simicich wrote: >Sounds like a plain old relay test - if they can force mail through your >system and have it delivered to a third party, you are an open >relay. There were some servers at some level that would take mail with a >local postmaster origin by IP address and forward it. The spammers >learned this, and started using it. Current software has this hole closed. > >Whether this was done by a spammer looking for a relay, or because a >spammer had found one and was exploiting it, and your address had been >reported as an open relay, and the people at, say, ordb were testing >before they listed you is almost irrelevant.. > >The point is that no matter what a third party asserts regarding origin >address or destination, you should not relay mail from one third party to >another. Your willingness to relay mail should be based on a stronger >identification than simply asserting an RFC821 origin. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 13:13:08 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A90A196022 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.34.150] (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7GKAgi29022; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:10:42 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:10:45 -0700 Subject: Anti-spam "killer app"? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: , List Managers Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/139 X-Sequence-Number: 767 Hey, all. Take a look at this -- It's a new technique for identifying spam. The more I look into the details, the more I think we have the "anti-spam killer app", becaues it tunes itself to the individual (or site), adapts as the anti-spammers adapt, and the technique used is fairly easy to implement and damn difficult for a spammer to avoid.... Damn, I wish I'd thought of this. (I've dropped a pointer to it at http://www.chuqui.com/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?tid=389) -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ IMHO: Jargon. Acronym for In My Humble Opinion. Used to flag as an opinion something that is clearly from context an opinion to everyone except the mentally dense. Opinions flagged by IMHO are actually rarely humble. IMHO. (source: third unabridged dictionary of chuqui-isms). From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 13:42:33 2002 Received: from mail.wooz.org (dsl093-082-039.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.82.39]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E5C196197 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.wooz.org (Postfix, from userid 889) id F2075D3802; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:41:39 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15709.25475.854743.499074@anthem.wooz.org> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:41:39 -0400 To: List Managers Subject: Re: The gmane issue References: X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) X-Attribution: BAW X-Oblique-Strategy: What is the Reality of the situation? X-Url: http://barry.wooz.org X-Archive-Number: 200208/140 X-Sequence-Number: 768 >>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach writes: >> D) Included as a header AND a machine-parseable line in the >> body of the confirmation AND welcome message. >> I pick #D. CVR> There's already a defacto standard of X-No-Archive for "do CVR> not archive this message". CVR> How about creating another header: CVR> X-No-Archive-List: (descriptive string). CVR> If that exists, then the string either explains the policy or CVR> points to a URL that explains the policy. If that exists, you CVR> don't archive that list without following the policy. CVR> Too simple? I agree that a header is probably fine, but /please/ let's not make the same mistake as with "X-No-Archive: yes" -- let's make a positive assertion instead. Something like "X-Archive-Policy: (descriptive string)". I'm not sure what to put in there for "descriptive string". Some wacky thoughts: - A url pointing to an XML file for some hugely complicated syntax that covers every possible policy decision under the sun. Start the standards process now. . - Some simple strings like "No-Mirrors", "Ask-First", "Free-For-All" Also, what about standardizing an email command that can be used to ask the listserver for its policy? -Barry From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 14:02:49 2002 Received: from penguin.postmodern.com (penguin.postmodern.com [216.240.39.2]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 706ED195F20 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heathrow.postmodern.com (heathrow.postmodern.com [216.240.39.13]) by penguin.postmodern.com (8.11.1/8.11.1-mcb-20001119) with ESMTP id g7GL1nC28751 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:01:49 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:01:55 -0700 Subject: Re: Anti-spam "killer app"? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) From: "Michael C. Berch" To: List Managers List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <6574291B-B15B-11D6-8FD9-003065F94B0A@postmodern.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) X-Archive-Number: 200208/141 X-Sequence-Number: 769 On Friday, August 16, 2002, at 01:10 PM, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > > > It's a new technique for identifying spam. The more I look into the > details, > the more I think we have the "anti-spam killer app", becaues it tunes > itself > to the individual (or site), adapts as the anti-spammers adapt, and the > technique used is fairly easy to implement and damn difficult for a > spammer > to avoid.... People have been talking about Bayesian filtering for spam for quite a while. It is definitely very promising. But the easiest way to defeat it -- which also works against sophisticated pattern-matching algorithms as in SpamAssassin -- is simply to make the payload of your spam an image, which cannot be turned into lexical tokens for Bayesian analysis. Even if a clickable link is appended, that will not provide sufficient information to declare something spam, since people send URLs to each other all the time. You can simply assert that a message consisting only of an image and a link is spam, but that's not Bayesian, that's just a semantic pattern. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postodern.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 14:10:06 2002 Received: from exchim01.intranet.hdr (unknown [63.165.129.137]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECBC41959E1 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCHOMA.intranet.hdr ([10.10.11.59]) by exchim01.intranet.hdr with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:09:15 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Disposition-Notification-To: "Tegels, Kent" Subject: Re: The gmane issue Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:09:15 -0500 Message-ID: <20934F1880245B4189BABE7B0DA9F57F018650FF@EXCHOMA.intranet.hdr> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: The gmane issue Thread-Index: AcJFZ6DNM+qYn4xNSd6DFHjWMdoA8gAAIwxQ From: "Tegels, Kent" To: "Barry A. Warsaw" , "List Managers" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Aug 2002 21:09:15.0964 (UTC) FILETIME=[2DA7A7C0:01C24569] X-Archive-Number: 200208/142 X-Sequence-Number: 770 I agree with the bit about "X-No-Archive" for sure. I'd prefer something less than YAHCXS (yet another horribly complex XML schema) yet something more than just a simple text description. However, I do think that's more appropriate for an RFC discussion than discussion here. So count me in for the RFC, I guess. I really like the idea of a "get policy" command too. Most of the lists I work with require a list charter that talks about such things which is available as a simple HTML file that would be good for that. thanks! kt -----Original Message----- From: Barry A. Warsaw [mailto:bwarsaw@python.org] Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 3:42 PM To: List Managers Subject: Re: The gmane issue=20 >>>>> "CVR" =3D=3D Chuq Von Rospach writes: >> D) Included as a header AND a machine-parseable line in the >> body of the confirmation AND welcome message. >> I pick #D. CVR> There's already a defacto standard of X-No-Archive for "do CVR> not archive this message". CVR> How about creating another header: CVR> X-No-Archive-List: (descriptive string). CVR> If that exists, then the string either explains the policy or CVR> points to a URL that explains the policy. If that exists, you CVR> don't archive that list without following the policy. CVR> Too simple? I agree that a header is probably fine, but /please/ let's not make the same mistake as with "X-No-Archive: yes" -- let's make a positive assertion instead. Something like "X-Archive-Policy: (descriptive string)". I'm not sure what to put in there for "descriptive string". Some wacky thoughts: - A url pointing to an XML file for some hugely complicated syntax that covers every possible policy decision under the sun. Start the standards process now. . - Some simple strings like "No-Mirrors", "Ask-First", "Free-For-All" Also, what about standardizing an email command that can be used to ask the listserver for its policy? -Barry From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 14:12:21 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF8219601C for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.255.128.224] (A17-219-194-56.apple.com [17.219.194.56]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7GLAmi05780; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:10:48 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:10:51 -0700 Subject: Re: The gmane issue From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Barry Warsaw , List Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <15709.25475.854743.499074@anthem.wooz.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/143 X-Sequence-Number: 771 On 8/16/02 1:41 PM, "Barry A. Warsaw" wrote: > I agree that a header is probably fine, but /please/ let's not make > the same mistake as with "X-No-Archive: yes" -- let's make a positive > assertion instead. Something like "X-Archive-Policy: (descriptive > string)". Defnitely. IMHO, the existance of the header means "don't do it until you make sure you get permission". X-No-Header got that all sideways. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 14:21:42 2002 Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.1.73]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91D6F1960B9 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ord351473 (localhost.panix.com [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D0D78EC2 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00c501c2456a$cca042a0$21985742@ord351473> From: "David W. Tamkin" To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020815161849.03eac910@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <20020816170933.GA27771@mighty.grot.org> <200208161841.g7GIfpv01594@quill.local> Subject: Re: The gmane issue Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:20:43 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Archive-Number: 200208/144 X-Sequence-Number: 772 Norbert proposed, | unsterilized-mangled-archive | unsterilized-faithful-archive | sterilized-mangled-archive | sterilized-faithful-archive | | (In a mangled-archive, the site with the robot is allowed to mangle | the messages in any way. In a faithful-archive, any site which | hosts archives must provide a complete record of the flow of | discussion on the list, with unmangled message text for each | posting.) ... except that in a sterilized faithful archive, sterilization of email addresses in the text has to supersede fidelity; for that matter, in a sterilized mangled archive, the duty to sterilize supersedes the permission to mangle. That may be glaringly obvious to us, but for others it needs to be spelled out. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 16:37:21 2002 Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B94E1196017 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28125 invoked by uid 50); 16 Aug 2002 23:36:27 -0000 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on References: <15705.5460.990196.164884@onceler.kciLink.com> <15705.7174.992950.327047@anthem.wooz.org> <200208161741.g7GHfDQ01002@quill.local> In-Reply-To: <200208161741.g7GHfDQ01002@quill.local> (Norbert Bollow's message of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:41:13 +0200") From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:36:27 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090008 (Oort Gnus v0.08) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter, sparc-sun-solaris2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200208/145 X-Sequence-Number: 773 Norbert Bollow writes: > Barry A. Warsaw wrote: >> Web archives generally suck > That needs to be changed. I don't believe that it's possible to change this until someone develops working cross-browser Javascript, since there is no organization of web archives that's going to be acceptable so long as every time you click on anything you have to do a round-trip page retrieval from the server. The ideal web archive looks and functions exactly like the user's mail client, but with enhanced search features. This is exactly why Gmane is so cool, because that's close to what it is. (Which indicates to me that the real future of archiving of mailing lists is in read-only IMAP folders.) -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 18:00:04 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01D871959E5 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7H0wVV17956; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:58:31 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:58:27 -0700 Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Russ Allbery , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/146 X-Sequence-Number: 774 On 8/16/02 4:36 PM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: > (Which indicates to me that the real future of archiving of mailing lists > is in read-only IMAP folders.) Um, humm... You know? If you have a backing store in MySQL, and you set up the mailboxes right.... Damn, I hadn't thought about that. That has real potential. Damn, Russ, that's -- intriguing. (scuttling off to think about this....) -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 18:27:43 2002 Received: from tarsus.cisto.com (tarsus.cisto.com [195.97.240.29]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12487196049 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-zh-20-1-dialup-64.freesurf.ch [194.230.178.64]) by tarsus.cisto.com (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA03524; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:31:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g7H1QXL04066; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:26:33 +0200 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:26:33 +0200 Message-Id: <200208170126.g7H1QXL04066@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: rra@stanford.edu Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: (message from Russ Allbery on Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:36:27 -0700) Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives References: <15705.5460.990196.164884@onceler.kciLink.com> <15705.7174.992950.327047@anthem.wooz.org> <200208161741.g7GHfDQ01002@quill.local> X-Archive-Number: 200208/147 X-Sequence-Number: 775 Russ Allbery wrote: > The ideal web archive looks and functions exactly like the user's mail > client, but with enhanced search features. Ok... so it's not going to be a website, but rather a webservice, which would be accessed from a client program which will ideally be closely integrated with the MUA. Greetings, Norbert. -- Founder & Steering Committee member of http://gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://norbert.ch List hosting with GNU Mailman on your own domain name http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 20:33:55 2002 Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6449F195F20 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 24-205-154-98.riv-eres.charterpipeline.net ([24.205.154.98] helo=lehel.goldmark.private) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17fuKn-00040h-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:33:05 -0700 Received: from jeffrey (helo=localhost) by lehel.goldmark.private with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 17fuJj-0002i9-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:31:59 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:31:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-X-Sender: jeffrey@lehel.goldmark.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/148 X-Sequence-Number: 776 On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Russ Allbery wrote: > (Which indicates to me that the real future of archiving of mailing lists > is in read-only IMAP folders.) This is one of those ideas that fall into the category of "I wish I'd thought of that." No doubt that in a few years, I'll actually come to believe that I had thought of it. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 21:29:44 2002 Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61DF0195FA5 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g7H4Sc313907 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:28:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: from tom-w2kc (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g7H4SaU13837 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:31:08 -0400 From: Tom Neff Reply-To: tneff@grassyhill.org To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on Message-ID: <29868375.1029544268@[192.168.254.8]> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) Organization: Grassy Hill Entertainment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanner: scanned by Inflex 1.0.12.3 - http://pldaniels.com/inflex X-Archive-Number: 200208/149 X-Sequence-Number: 777 FWIW I disagree with Russ - the Web is really better at this stuff in terms of (a) scaling up to large, long-lived lists, (b) sophisticated searching (even, or especially, via Google) and (c) flexibility of human interface. And I say this as an avid IMAP user. The meta-lesson, if you will, is that you should store your list archives in the most presentation-independent format possible, so as to preserve your options when you change your mind every five years, or when archive browsing technology leaps. Don't cook messages permanently into HTML pages. --On Friday, August 16, 2002 8:31 PM -0700 Jeffrey Goldberg wrote: > On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Russ Allbery wrote: > >> (Which indicates to me that the real future of archiving of mailing lists >> is in read-only IMAP folders.) > > This is one of those ideas that fall into the category of "I wish I'd > thought of that." No doubt that in a few years, I'll actually come to > believe that I had thought of it. > From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 21:38:21 2002 Received: from mail.wooz.org (dsl093-082-039.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.82.39]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A6F195F1B for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.wooz.org (Postfix, from userid 889) id 8151ED3800; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:37:26 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15709.54022.394421.743366@anthem.wooz.org> Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:37:26 -0400 To: Russ Allbery Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on References: X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) X-Attribution: BAW X-Oblique-Strategy: Always give yourself credit for having more than personality (given by Arto Lindsay) X-Url: http://barry.wooz.org X-Archive-Number: 200208/150 X-Sequence-Number: 778 >>>>> "RA" == Russ Allbery writes: RA> I don't believe that it's possible to change this until RA> someone develops working cross-browser Javascript, since there RA> is no organization of web archives that's going to be RA> acceptable so long as every time you click on anything you RA> have to do a round-trip page retrieval from the server. Agreed, and who knows when that'll happen. We've been talking about similar stuff in the Zope world, where roundtrips and html guis suck hard too. The consensus is that client-side Java is dead and that things like Flash MX has some promise. Me, I dunno. RA> The ideal web archive looks and functions exactly like the RA> user's mail client, but with enhanced search features. This RA> is exactly why Gmane is so cool, because that's close to what RA> it is. RA> (Which indicates to me that the real future of archiving of RA> mailing lists is in read-only IMAP folders.) We've also talked about gmane like nntp access to the back end, but I suppose that doesn't have searching. I gotta mention TwistedMatrix and Zope again, but I think that a protocol framework backed by real database is where this is heading. You throw the messages into the store and then vend it out in any of a number of different protocols depending on the user's needs. Such a system could serve the messages out via nntp, pop, imap, http, etc., etc. using the client's native u/i's rather than crafty a web-based one that'll suck anyway. :) -Barry From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 21:52:07 2002 Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DB775195F1B for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3035 invoked by uid 50); 17 Aug 2002 04:51:17 -0000 To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on References: <29868375.1029544268@[192.168.254.8]> In-Reply-To: <29868375.1029544268@[192.168.254.8]> (Tom Neff's message of "Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:31:08 -0400") From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:51:17 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090008 (Oort Gnus v0.08) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter, sparc-sun-solaris2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200208/151 X-Sequence-Number: 779 Tom Neff writes: > FWIW I disagree with Russ - the Web is really better at this stuff in > terms of (a) scaling up to large, long-lived lists, (b) sophisticated > searching (even, or especially, via Google) and (c) flexibility of human > interface. And I say this as an avid IMAP user. I'll believe that when I see an archive interface that I can stand to use more than occasionally with a great deal of pain. I'm still looking. Google doesn't cut it either (although Google Groups is certainly better than 99% of the mailing list archives out there). > The meta-lesson, if you will, is that you should store your list > archives in the most presentation-independent format possible, so as to > preserve your options when you change your mind every five years, or > when archive browsing technology leaps. Don't cook messages permanently > into HTML pages. Saving the archives as mbox files or as separate files per message is probably the best, as the e-mail format is more stable than most anything else. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 21:56:05 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDD94195FE6 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7H4t5V20930; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:55:05 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:54:57 -0700 Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on From: Chuq Von Rospach To: , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <29868375.1029544268@[192.168.254.8]> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/152 X-Sequence-Number: 780 On 8/16/02 9:31 PM, "Tom Neff" wrote: > The meta-lesson, if you will, is that you should store your list archives > in the most presentation-independent format possible, so as to preserve > your options when you change your mind every five years, or when archive > browsing technology leaps. Don't cook messages permanently into HTML pages. That's exactly what germinated this idea. USENET fails to scale because it sends every byte every where in case anyone anywhere might want it. Programs like pipermail and Mhonarc have the same general problem, generating all of the pages and all of the links in case someone might want any page from any link. While you can regenerate things if you want to change them (say, new headers and footers), it's a royal pain in the ear. So what I decided to explore was to simply (hah!) dump everything into MySQL, use MySQL's fulltext search system as the basis of a search engine, and then start building interfaces to the data -- and just create an api and environment to allow people to build interfaces to the data. The data lives in the database. It's never changed. It's simply made ready ofr display. Want an iMap interface? Fine. Web sorted by list, date and author? Sure. Threaded? No problemo. Based on the octal represenation of the 12th byte of the 4th paragraph? Sure, why not? What we want out of the data changes over time. So quite putting the data into display format, stuff it somewhere and manipulate it as needed. Most archives are pretty low access things anyway, so building index pages on the fly just doesn't seem to be a huge issue to me. (again, hah) -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 22:04:40 2002 Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60DA01959F8 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g7H53gg16290 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:03:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: from tom-w2kc (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g7H53fU16219 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:03:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:06:13 -0400 From: Tom Neff Reply-To: tneff@grassyhill.org To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on Message-ID: <31973296.1029546373@[192.168.254.8]> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) Organization: Grassy Hill Entertainment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanner: scanned by Inflex 1.0.12.3 - http://pldaniels.com/inflex X-Archive-Number: 200208/153 X-Sequence-Number: 781 --On Friday, August 16, 2002 9:54 PM -0700 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 8/16/02 9:31 PM, "Tom Neff" wrote: >> The meta-lesson, if you will, is that you should store your list archives >> in the most presentation-independent format possible, so as to preserve >> your options when you change your mind every five years, or when archive >> browsing technology leaps. Don't cook messages permanently into HTML >> pages. > > That's exactly what germinated this idea. USENET fails to scale because it > sends every byte every where in case anyone anywhere might want it. Actually, Usenet (I still remember the capswars on that one) scales well because as long as Google Groups grabs the posting, you can search from there forever. In the here and now, Usenet's biggest problem is that specialty groups lack distribution, i.e., it DOESN'T send every byte everywhere in general, it only sends what servers are configured to get. > So what I decided to explore was to simply (hah!) dump everything into > MySQL, use MySQL's fulltext search system as the basis of a search engine... I think that I would be as terrified of entrusting a list's long-term archive to MySQL as any other possible software choice. Plain text would rule for me. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 22:05:02 2002 Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.176.124.156]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E45019611F for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toshiba.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4EBF351E2 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:04:09 -0400 (EDT) X-America-Has-Resolve: yes X-Message-Flag: Microsoft Outlook is insecure. Upgrade your Mail Program Now! Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817003104.039615f8@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:46:58 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing In-Reply-To: References: <200208161741.g7GHfDQ01002@quill.local> <15705.5460.990196.164884@onceler.kciLink.com> <15705.7174.992950.327047@anthem.wooz.org> <200208161741.g7GHfDQ01002@quill.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-73E57502; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/154 X-Sequence-Number: 782 At 04:36 PM 2002-08-16 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: >I don't believe that it's possible to change this until someone develops >working cross-browser Javascript, since there is no organization of web >archives that's going to be acceptable so long as every time you click on >anything you have to do a round-trip page retrieval from the server. > >The ideal web archive looks and functions exactly like the user's mail >client, but with enhanced search features. This is exactly why Gmane is >so cool, because that's close to what it is. Now, let's think about this. It is impossible to do a good archive on the web because of round trip time, but the fact that gmane is at the other end of a Round Trip is not a problem? I don' get it, Lucy. Something is at work here other than round trip time. >(Which indicates to me that the real future of archiving of mailing lists >is in read-only IMAP folders.) Which are also on the other end of a round trip interaction with a server. I'm willing to agree that it will be difficult or impossible to do a reasonable web archive, but I think that it is because the web model sort of sucks because it does not have a rich enough set of search functions...then again, why is that not part of the world of CGI? Essentially, the assertion is that an imap client or a nntp client can search a bunch of files and return the right ones in a short enough time (including the milliseconds for the server RTT) and that is acceptable, but you can't plug that same code into a web server and have it return the files? I really do not think that server RTT has anything to do with it. -- "Forgive him, for he believes that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature!" -- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950) Nick Simicich - njs@scifi.squawk.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 22:35:06 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D24691959F5 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7H5XmV21409; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:33:48 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:33:41 -0700 Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Nick Simicich , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817003104.039615f8@127.0.0.1> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/155 X-Sequence-Number: 783 On 8/16/02 9:46 PM, "Nick Simicich" wrote: > Now, let's think about this. It is impossible to do a good archive on the > web because of round trip time, but the fact that gmane is at the other end > of a Round Trip is not a problem? > > I don' get it, Lucy. Something is at work here other than round trip time. I do. Think about how an iMap client works (or a usenet client) vs. a web page. As you navigate the web page, you're doing a lot of loading new pages and refreshing. With iMap and usenet, you download the key header information and then the client manipulates it. With web, you have a constant stream of relatively slow updates. With iMap and NNTP, you have a slower startup time to load the data, but faster browsing. And from a user perception view, that slower startup time can be a lot less intrusive than constant small delays. But that can be minimized, I think, though careful use of frames. I'm not sure I'd go all the way to the javascript browser, IMHO. You're better off offering NNTP or iMap and not trying to rebuild those browsers in Javascript. >> (Which indicates to me that the real future of archiving of mailing lists >> is in read-only IMAP folders.) > > Which are also on the other end of a round trip interaction with a server. But they're accessed in very different ways. > CGI? Essentially, the assertion is that an imap client or a nntp client > can search a bunch of files and return the right ones in a short enough > time (including the milliseconds for the server RTT) and that is > acceptable, but you can't plug that same code into a web server and have it > return the files? I really do not think that server RTT has anything to > do with it. To some degree you're right, Nick. But it's how the two styles of interfaces work that is the key here. One frontloads the delay, the other spreads it out over the session. To most users, the latter will FEEL slower, even if it's not. It's one of those cases where perception matters more than reality. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Very funny, Scotty. Now beam my clothes down here, will you? From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 22:38:16 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AE881959E1 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7H5aOV21453; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:36:25 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:36:18 -0700 Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Russ Allbery , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/156 X-Sequence-Number: 784 On 8/16/02 9:51 PM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: > I'll believe that when I see an archive interface that I can stand to use > more than occasionally with a great deal of pain. I'm still looking. > Google doesn't cut it either (although Google Groups is certainly better > than 99% of the mailing list archives out there). If that's your feeling, then you're so bound to the NNTP client interfaces that I don't think you can really judge the web interfaces. You're so comfortable in one space than any other space can't be comfortable. That's a bad thing to be if you're trying to build sytstems in that other space. (or as I like to say it, if you're someone who loses your brain when you're with a redhead, you can't really judge a contest between blondes). > Saving the archives as mbox files or as separate files per message is > probably the best, as the e-mail format is more stable than most anything > else. God, no. what, flat files and grep? (shudder) -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Very funny, Scotty. Now beam my clothes down here, will you? From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 22:42:04 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59558195F64 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7H5f7V21496; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:41:07 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:41:00 -0700 Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on From: Chuq Von Rospach To: , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <31973296.1029546373@[192.168.254.8]> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/157 X-Sequence-Number: 785 On 8/16/02 10:06 PM, "Tom Neff" wrote: >> That's exactly what germinated this idea. USENET fails to scale because it >> sends every byte every where in case anyone anywhere might want it. > > Actually, Usenet (I still remember the capswars on that one) scales well > because as long as Google Groups grabs the posting, Google Groups isn't USENET. It's a USENET archive, which is a much different beast. Now, if the entire universe used Google to read and post, you'd be right, but then it wouldn't be USENET any more. It'd be yahoogroups, only much bigger and designed right. > there forever. In the here and now, Usenet's biggest problem is that > specialty groups lack distribution, i.e., it DOESN'T send every byte > everywhere in general, it only sends what servers are configured to get. That's because those specialty groups are in many cases (and the number of cases are growing) not intended to be distributed -- we have to remember that USENET uses NNTP, but not everything that uses NNTP is USENET or wants to be. I think NNTP in non-propogating servers is a great hack. The biggest problem they have these days are suck feeds that propogate stuff incorrectly and muddle the boundaries. > I think that I would be as terrified of entrusting a list's long-term > archive to MySQL as any other possible software choice. Plain text would > rule for me. And how do you build a search engine? With grep? My lists.apple.com archive is heading towards 600,000 messages. Do you know how much fun it is to try to keep that sucker straight, much less browsable, indexed and searchable? Plain text works for small sets of data, and scales horribly. USENET even figured that out eventually and finally rebuilt the spool structures into something from this century... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 22:52:06 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 108B01960AB for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7H5p5V21619; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:51:05 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:50:52 -0700 Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Barry Warsaw , Russ Allbery Cc: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <15709.54022.394421.743366@anthem.wooz.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/158 X-Sequence-Number: 786 On 8/16/02 9:37 PM, "Barry A. Warsaw" wrote: > Agreed, and who knows when that'll happen. We've been talking about > similar stuff in the Zope world, where roundtrips and html guis suck > hard too. The consensus is that client-side Java is dead and that > things like Flash MX has some promise. Me, I dunno. I'd look at doing a java client, then. As opposed to applets or browser-based java code. For OS X 10.2, Sherlock's now an interface to build web applications. Basically, a framework to plug in code modules to interact with internet data sets. It's got some neat stuff. Unfortunately, the tech specs aren't up yet, so I can't point to them. But it's an interesting model, that would allow you to do this sort of thing without a b rowser imposing it's model in the way. > number of different protocols depending on the user's needs. Such a > system could serve the messages out via nntp, pop, imap, http, etc., > etc. using the client's native u/i's rather than crafty a web-based > one that'll suck anyway. :) In other words, my rantings that data and transfer protocols need to be disconnected and data should be available the way people want to use it is starting to happen. Finally. No more "this is e-mail. That is a usenet posting". Instead, "this is data, how do you want to access it?" -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 22:56:13 2002 Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9373195F64 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 24-205-154-98.riv-eres.charterpipeline.net ([24.205.154.98] helo=lehel.goldmark.private) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17fwYV-00018t-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:55:23 -0700 Received: from jeffrey (helo=localhost) by lehel.goldmark.private with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 17fwXQ-0002kp-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:54:16 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:54:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-X-Sender: jeffrey@lehel.goldmark.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/159 X-Sequence-Number: 787 On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > [...] USENET fails to scale because it sends every byte every where in > case anyone anywhere might want it. I always thought that Usenet was a nice combination of push and pull that scales remarkably well when it should. And the idea of using something like NNTP (not propogated through Usenet) or IMAP really does strike me as nice way to enable archives to be available. > So what I decided to explore was to simply (hah!) dump everything into > MySQL, use MySQL's fulltext search system as the basis of a search > engine, and then start building interfaces to the data -- and just > create an api and environment to allow people to build interfaces to the > data. The data lives in the database. It's never changed. It's simply > made ready ofr display. Want an iMap interface? Fine. Web sorted by > list, date and author? Sure. Threaded? No problemo. Based on the octal > represenation of the 12th byte of the 4th paragraph? Sure, why not? I agree that it is useful to separate the concecpts of "storage form" from "access form". So, when I support the idea of IMAP, I don't care if the backend is mbox, tenex or a proper SQL query system. Same goes for NNTP. The appeal of allowing access to archives by NNTP is not because I'm an advocate on news spools. What is nice about NNTP and IMAP (and others) is that they are naturally appropriate for (2)822 style messages. But I completely agree with you that it would be stupid to confuse presentation format with archive format. Particularly where the presentation transformation is not easily reversable. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 16 23:46:03 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3B15195AF7 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7H6ifV22233; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:44:41 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:44:35 -0700 Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Jeffrey Goldberg , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/160 X-Sequence-Number: 788 On 8/16/02 10:54 PM, "Jeffrey Goldberg" wrote: > On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > >> [...] USENET fails to scale because it sends every byte every where in >> case anyone anywhere might want it. > > I always thought that Usenet was a nice combination of push and pull that > scales remarkably well when it should. If you got the binaries out of USENET, and had some way to deal with rogue sites and trolls, USENET wouldn be downright wonderful. Unfortunately, since neither is really true, it's become unusable in the mainstream unless you live in one of the backwaters that hasn't become intolerable yet, or you filter like crazy, or both. Binaries are horribly inappropriate on USENET, and the lack of any content policing mechanism means that the people who thrive on inappropriate content have driven most of the rest of us off the system. If you can't police the trolls, the trolls will win. And have. > But I completely agree with you that it would be stupid to confuse > presentation format with archive format. Particularly where the > presentation transformation is not easily reversable. And that's been the problem to date. It all gets mixed together, and when you have a hammer in your hand, everything turns into nails. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 00:31:46 2002 Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5A8FF195F82 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3304 invoked by uid 50); 17 Aug 2002 07:30:56 -0000 To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on References: In-Reply-To: (Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:36:18 -0700") From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:30:56 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 51 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090008 (Oort Gnus v0.08) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter, sparc-sun-solaris2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200208/161 X-Sequence-Number: 789 Chuq Von Rospach writes: > If that's your feeling, then you're so bound to the NNTP client > interfaces that I don't think you can really judge the web > interfaces. You're so comfortable in one space than any other space > can't be comfortable. That's a bad thing to be if you're trying to build > sytstems in that other space. > (or as I like to say it, if you're someone who loses your brain when > you're with a redhead, you can't really judge a contest between > blondes). Or I'm just more aware of the feature lists of such clients than you are and you have no idea what you're missing. :) The basic problem with the web interfaces, all of them, including Google, is that theeeey'rrree iiiiincreeeeediblllllly sllllllloooooooooowwwwwwwwww. Because they have to do a round-trip to the server for *every click*. If Google were actually responsive, it would be usable. It's probably the best available one. But I think you've completely missed my point, as stated in my previous message. The ideal archives have the same interface as *the user's e-mail client* but with searching. And by "the user's e-mail client," I mean exactly that. If they use Eudora, it should look like Eudora. If they use Outlook, it should look like Outlook. If they use Pine, it should look like Pine. Because that's the interface they already know how to use and are comfortable with. If you have *any* other interface, you're making the user learn something new, and you're going to disenfranchise at least some of the least computer-savvy in your audience. >> Saving the archives as mbox files or as separate files per message is >> probably the best, as the e-mail format is more stable than most >> anything else. > God, no. what, flat files and grep? (shudder) Um, Chuq, just because you keep the archives in that format doesn't mean that's the format you *use*. Sure, throw them into MySQL, convert them to HTML, turn them into Postscript, whatever turns your crank and enables your archives. Just save a copy of the straight mbox files *too*, since twenty years from now no one's going to be able to read MySQL databases, but mail clients will still be able to parse mbox files, at least once they're split on From headers. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 01:36:37 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AED1195F5D for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17fz3e-0001SV-00 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:35:42 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17fz3d-0001SK-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:35:41 -0700 To: Norbert Bollow Cc: bwarsaw@python.org, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on gmane) In-Reply-To: Message from Norbert Bollow of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:41:13 +0200." <200208161741.g7GHfDQ01002@quill.local> References: <15705.5460.990196.164884@onceler.kciLink.com> <15705.7174.992950.327047@anthem.wooz.org> <200208161741.g7GHfDQ01002@quill.local> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:35:41 -0700 Message-ID: <5599.1029573341@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: nb@cisto.com, bwarsaw@python.org, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: KQODaFteNOIXFm4ohCqSd8ZIE/U X-Archive-Number: 200208/162 X-Sequence-Number: 790 On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:41:13 +0200 Norbert Bollow wrote: > Barry A. Warsaw wrote: >> Web archives generally suck > That needs to be changed. The new sourceforge archives add several usefully better semantics. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 01:37:19 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1FB195F64 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17fz4P-0001Sp-00 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:36:29 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17fz4O-0001Se-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:36:28 -0700 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Aditya , List Managers Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:56:57 PDT." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:36:28 -0700 Message-ID: <5619.1029573388@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: chuqui@plaidworks.com, aditya@grot.org, List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: GZ/UaE/hZqxxms/ttE8bvlHKuyA X-Archive-Number: 200208/163 X-Sequence-Number: 791 On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:56:57 -0700 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > If that exists, then the string either explains the policy or points > to a URL that explains the policy. If that exists, you don't archive > that list without following the policy. > Too simple? And too effective. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 01:40:40 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AD58195B33 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17fz7e-0001Tc-00 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:39:50 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17fz7e-0001TT-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:39:50 -0700 To: JC Dill Cc: List Managers Subject: Re: Mailing List Mirror/Archive RFC? [Was Re: The gmane issue] In-Reply-To: Message from JC Dill of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:19:53 PDT." <5.0.0.25.2.20020816121305.0466feb0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> References: <20020816170933.GA27771@mighty.grot.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20020815161849.03eac910@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <20020816170933.GA27771@mighty.grot.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20020816121305.0466feb0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:39:50 -0700 Message-ID: <5670.1029573590@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: inet-list@vo.cnchost.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: UQhQYijPb0TpRoXxpj99mIiTbXI X-Archive-Number: 200208/164 X-Sequence-Number: 792 On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:19:53 -0700 JC Dill wrote: > On 10:32 AM 8/16/02, J C Lawrence wrote: >> I pick #D. > Is that instead of A, B, and C, or in addition to? Largely instead of, mostly as its the only recipe I consider to have a chance of both success and adoption. > If "instead of", how would they learn about your policy *before* > subscribing? By seeing the headers during the two stage handshake for subscription. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 01:53:40 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC31C195FD7 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17fzKF-0001VN-00 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:52:51 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17fzKE-0001VC-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:52:50 -0700 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Russ Allbery , List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:36:18 PDT." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:52:50 -0700 Message-ID: <5777.1029574370@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: chuqui@plaidworks.com, rra@stanford.edu, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: K/TOxwvNGeO4G6FW8+RfuWoahvU X-Archive-Number: 200208/165 X-Sequence-Number: 793 On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:36:18 -0700 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 8/16/02 9:51 PM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: >> Saving the archives as mbox files or as separate files per message is >> probably the best, as the e-mail format is more stable than most >> anything else. > God, no. what, flat files and grep? (shudder) At this point I'll fail to comment on my flat text templatised process and feature abstracted MHonArc+PHP archives. The archive files are fixed and do nothing but provide extracted data for a PHP rendering model. That rendering mode, as shared, can be trivially edited, rewritten, re-abstracted, or replaced, as can the archive message files or the transport (currently filesystem, could as easily be SQL/DB). -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 06:43:17 2002 Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38212195F3E for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 06:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g7HDgNI44028 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:42:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: from tom-w2kc (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g7HDgGU43956 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:42:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:44:43 -0400 From: Tom Neff Reply-To: tneff@grassyhill.org To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: idea: Google Lists Message-ID: <63083328.1029577483@[192.168.254.8]> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) Organization: Grassy Hill Entertainment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanner: scanned by Inflex 1.0.12.3 - http://pldaniels.com/inflex X-Archive-Number: 200208/166 X-Sequence-Number: 794 --On Friday, August 16, 2002 10:41 PM -0700 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 8/16/02 10:06 PM, "Tom Neff" wrote: >> Actually, Usenet (I still remember the capswars on that one) scales well >> because as long as Google Groups grabs the posting, > > Google Groups isn't USENET. It's a USENET archive, which is a much > different beast. Now, if the entire universe used Google to read and > post, you'd be right, but then it wouldn't be USENET any more. It'd be > yahoogroups, only much bigger and designed right. I don't want to drift off into semantics here. Obviously Google Groups isn't Usenet, but since it archives Usenet, if you can get your list onto Usenet, Google will take it from there, using an architecture that does scale well, which was my point. Usenet by itself isn't much of a solution, but Usenet plus Google Groups is. Now here's an idea: why don't we pitch Google Lists at them? Listowners would opt-in by signing up and then adding a special Google member address to their rosters. This might be a nice hack! >> I think that I would be as terrified of entrusting a list's long-term >> archive to MySQL as any other possible software choice. Plain text would >> rule for me. > > And how do you build a search engine? With grep? Glimpse or Google. > My lists.apple.com archive is heading towards 600,000 messages. Do you > know how much fun it is to try to keep that sucker straight, much less > browsable, indexed and searchable? Plain text works for small sets of > data, and scales horribly. USENET even figured that out eventually and > finally rebuilt the spool structures into something from this century... (I assume you mean that several of the more widely installed NNTP server packages did this, because Usenet itself is simply the galactic network of machines serving NNTP and exchanging the core hierarchies - there is no master "spool structure" to be rebuilt.) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 08:09:39 2002 Received: from mail.wooz.org (dsl093-082-039.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.82.39]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80FAB195F10 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 08:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.wooz.org (Postfix, from userid 889) id 2FBA9D3800; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:08:45 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15710.26365.51739.836360@anthem.wooz.org> Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:08:45 -0400 To: Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on References: <15709.54022.394421.743366@anthem.wooz.org> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) X-Attribution: BAW X-Oblique-Strategy: Speaking children X-Url: http://barry.wooz.org X-Archive-Number: 200208/167 X-Sequence-Number: 795 >>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach writes: CVR> For OS X 10.2, Sherlock's now an interface to build web CVR> applications. Basically, a framework to plug in code modules CVR> to interact with internet data sets. It's got some neat CVR> stuff. Unfortunately, the tech specs aren't up yet, so I CVR> can't point to them. But it's an interesting model, that CVR> would allow you to do this sort of thing without a b rowser CVR> imposing it's model in the way. Very cool, I definitely want to investigate this. >> number of different protocols depending on the user's needs. >> Such a system could serve the messages out via nntp, pop, imap, >> http, etc., etc. using the client's native u/i's rather than >> crafty a web-based one that'll suck anyway. :) CVR> In other words, my rantings that data and transfer protocols CVR> need to be disconnected and data should be available the way CVR> people want to use it is starting to happen. Finally. No more CVR> "this is e-mail. That is a usenet posting". Instead, "this is CVR> data, how do you want to access it?" Exactly. -Barry From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 08:22:56 2002 Received: from mail.wooz.org (dsl093-082-039.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.82.39]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E9D195AF0 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 08:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.wooz.org (Postfix, from userid 889) id D2209D3800; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:22:04 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15710.27164.774478.538411@anthem.wooz.org> Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:22:04 -0400 To: Russ Allbery Cc: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on References: X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) X-Attribution: BAW X-Oblique-Strategy: What wouldn't you do? X-Url: http://barry.wooz.org X-Archive-Number: 200208/168 X-Sequence-Number: 796 >>>>> "RA" == Russ Allbery writes: RA> But I think you've completely missed my point, as stated in my RA> previous message. The ideal archives have the same interface RA> as *the user's e-mail client* but with searching. Bingo. And most email clients have some form of searching don't they, at least within their organizational structures (.e.g folders)? That's what I like about gmane. Although I use different clients to read news and mail, they're actually so close that it isn't jarring, /except/ when I want to search. -Barry From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 08:24:28 2002 Received: from rodney.cnchost.com (rodney.concentric.net [207.155.252.4]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF261959E7 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 08:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (adsl-208-201-244-240.sonic.net [208.201.244.240]) by rodney.cnchost.com id LAA10594; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:23:37 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20020817082056.02fb6ba0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 08:22:12 -0700 To: List Managers From: JC Dill Subject: Re: Mailing List Mirror/Archive RFC? [Was Re: The gmane issue] In-Reply-To: <5670.1029573590@kanga.nu> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020816121305.0466feb0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <20020816170933.GA27771@mighty.grot.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20020815161849.03eac910@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <20020816170933.GA27771@mighty.grot.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20020816121305.0466feb0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/169 X-Sequence-Number: 797 On 01:39 AM 8/17/02, J C Lawrence wrote: >On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:19:53 -0700 >JC Dill wrote: >> On 10:32 AM 8/16/02, J C Lawrence wrote: > >>> I pick #D. > >> Is that instead of A, B, and C, or in addition to? > >Largely instead of, mostly as its the only recipe I consider to have a >chance of both success and adoption. > >> If "instead of", how would they learn about your policy *before* >> subscribing? > >By seeing the headers during the two stage handshake for subscription. That's a non-responsive answer. That isn't BEFORE subscribing, but during. The answer is that unless you also have A or B, there is no way for them to know, prior to subscribing, what your policy is. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 09:17:05 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D48E195AEF for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7HGFuV28496; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:15:56 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:15:49 -0700 Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Russ Allbery , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/170 X-Sequence-Number: 798 On 8/17/02 12:30 AM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: > If Google were actually responsive, it would be usable. It's probably the > best available one. You just don't like blondes. (more correctly, you're already looking forward to when web services turn them into redheads...) > But I think you've completely missed my point, as stated in my previous > message. The ideal archives have the same interface as *the user's e-mail > client* but with searching. And by "the user's e-mail client," I mean > exactly that. No, I didn't. I think that's a nice idea, actually. But I also don't believe all users will want that. You may find it slow, but I actually see uses for both interfaces. And a web service setup. > look like Pine. Because that's the interface they already know how to use > and are comfortable with. But they're also comfortable with the browser interface, which you're not... > Um, Chuq, just because you keep the archives in that format doesn't mean > that's the format you *use*. Point taken, although to be honest, these days, I'd prefer to stuff them in a database, but in an unprocessed form, just to reduce the hassles of managing the glop 'o stuff. Right now, my general idea is to stick the header in one column as text, the body in another, and then add other columns as needed to make using those pieces. But not to chop it up and mince it into hash. So you could regenerate the plain text at any time from the database... I'm definitely not in the "whac the archives and hope your needs don't change later" camp. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 09:24:34 2002 Received: from devonshire.cnchost.com (devonshire.concentric.net [207.155.248.12]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 796971960AD for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (adsl-208-201-244-240.sonic.net [208.201.244.240]) by devonshire.cnchost.com id MAA19768; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:23:43 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20020817082440.02fbce20@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:08:01 -0700 To: List Managers From: JC Dill Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816210700.3657bfc0@127.0.0.1> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020815161849.03eac910@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/171 X-Sequence-Number: 799 On 06:28 PM 8/16/02, Nick Simicich wrote: >At 10:04 AM 2002-08-16 -0700, JC Dill wrote: >>So, my question to list-managers: Do you support the suggestion that list >>managers/owners have some responsibility (ala robots.txt) for telling >>those who wish to mirror or archive the list what the list rules are? > >The reality is that the "robots.txt" file should be a list of directories >that robots are allowed into, to spider. The concept of needing to post a >keep out sign to preserve existing intellectual property rights is >broken. It works very well, yet you call it broken. Meanwhile we have NO such system for mailing lists and you propose one that has far less chance of actually working because it isn't fully automated. > I agree that the original intent was that automated reading did >not violate the intent or scope of the publishing, but if you note, google >has a copy of everything - you can pull up their copy of any spidered web >page simply by using the google toolbar and asking for the cached copy - I >did that tonight when someone had taken a site down and I wanted to see >what they used to advertise. (Chuq, under my model of the world, google >would look for a robots.txt file and if they did not find one they would >not index your site -- since I think that many sites want to be indexed, I >think that they would create these files). Perhaps you should read the Google FAQ on robots.txt and caching: http://www.google.com/webmasters/faq.html How hard is it to expect webmaster to take simple steps to announce their policy? They need a *single* file indicating if spidering is allowed or not, and they need a *single* header in the webpage to indicate if it can be cached or not. THIS WORKS The reason it works is A) it is simple, and B) the burden is shared by those with the content (who have to properly post their policy in the robots.txt file and in their webpage headers) and those who seek to search, mirror, or archive it (who must follow the content provider's policy as it is conveyed in the file and header). >Thus, if we *must* have an automated procedure of any sort, I think that >the procedure should be: Yes, we *must*, or else you will continue to find lists being mirrored and archived without honoring the desires of the list owner. This genie isn't going back into the bottle, so lets make some policies that control it. >The response message to the subscribe may contain the specific phrase, "Off >site archives allowed". If this phrase is not present, no off site archive >should confirm their subscription without manually checking with the >listowner. An alternative would be "obfuscated off site archives allowed" >which would allow off site archives only if they obfuscate anything that >looked like an e-mail address (any string of characters that can be parsed >into a local part and a host part according to the typical rules used to >parse an e-mail address) into something that can't be converted back into >an e-mail address. This is way too convoluted. We are talking about automated systems. We need something with the simplicity of the robots.txt formale, of the meta tag format: Data follows: Field, variable. Here is the meta tag format that tells all caches on the Internet not to cache your webpage: Here is the format if you want to just specify no archive by google alone: This is not hard. This WORKS. A comparable system for mailing lists and gmane can just as simply be done by creating policy header values for email from the list. Sending a query to the mailing list server asking for the policy file for the list would return a file containing all the policy headers. Options could include: X-list-archive: allow all X-list-archive: deny all X-list-archive: deny gmane, allow all X-list-mirror: allow all X-list-mirror: deny all X-list-mirror-notify: etc. Or X-list-policy: deny gmane, allow all X-list-policy: deny all X-list-policy: mirror; Or some other similar header scheme. A mirror-notify value would tell the mirror to send email to the listowner address when subscribing, to notify the owner that a mirror has subscribed. Etc. >Good manners requires that the putative off-site archive ask permission >anyway. For one thing, it lets the list owner know that the archive will >be created. *Good* manners are gone from the Internet. What we need is not some Ms. Manners-suitable for dining with Heads of State type of solution, but simply a workable one for the masses. >The lack of such a permission phrase should indicate that the list may not >automatically be added to an off-site archive. Someone desiring to archive >such a list publicly must check with the list owner. You can wish this all you want, but it's never going to happen. Just as you could wish that Canter and Segal would stop their green card spam, but wishing it didn't make it stop, or make spam go away. We have to deal with the reality of what is, not what we wish it would be. We NEED to create an automated system for those who wish to offer offsite mirrors and archives because such sites WILL exist, and they WILL mirror and archive unless we make it EASY for them to learn the list policy and follow it. >The format of robots.txt should never have been accepted: what it does is >to force people to opt-out of having their intellectual property pirated. What it does is make search sites like Google exist, and work. Without it, we would not have the very useful searching and indexing of content on the Internet. The huge success of the Internet as a place to find valuable information is almost entirely due to the success of the various search sites. Take DejaGoogle as an example. Before dejanews, before DejaGoogle, there was no easy way to search large quantities of past usenet posts. Now it's very easy to search these past posts, and there are many websites that now point to usenet posts. This makes this data *accessible* to the net at large and more and more are accessing it every day. gmane (and other sites like it) will do the same for mailing lists. IMHO, this is a good thing. There should be automated systems designed so that those who want to keep their lists out of gmane (and others like it, present and future) can easily do so. But complaining that you don't like the premise isn't going to make it go away, and declaring that all of the onus should be on the other party simply isn't going to work. The Internet-using public, as a group, will want this service, they will want mailing lists archived and easily searchable, just as they love search engines. >Because what we are considering doing is adding a whole level of opt-out >permissioning, perhaps with multiple headers in every mailing list posting >that is archived anywhere, simply to control rude behavior -- people who >need to be able to look left and right and see a "posted" sign in each >direction so that they don't come onto your property and trample your truck >garden and kill Bambi -- because of one or two rude people per five years. We have it with spiders and with web caches, and it WORKS. It works because, by and large, this is a service that the Internet users WANT, and for those who don't want it, there are systems to indicate this. Spam needs to be opt-in because, by and large, users (people with email boxes) don't want spam. Staying out of archives and caches needs to be opt-out because A) this can easily be done with automated systems and B) most users (webmasters, web visitors, list owners, list subscribers) will want to opt-in. Anything else simply won't work, no matter how ideal the solution might seem in principle. jc From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 09:34:15 2002 Received: from mighty.grot.org (mighty.grot.org [204.182.56.120]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D31D1959E7 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mighty.grot.org (Postfix, from userid 515) id 75F8C5D1C; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:33:20 -0700 From: Aditya To: List Managers Mailing list Cc: Russ Allbery Subject: IMAP from a DB? [was Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on] Message-ID: <20020817163320.GA73335@mighty.grot.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Archive-Number: 200208/172 X-Sequence-Number: 800 On Sat, Aug 17, 2002 at 09:15:49AM -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 8/17/02 12:30 AM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: > > But I think you've completely missed my point, as stated in my previous > > message. The ideal archives have the same interface as *the user's e-mail > > client* but with searching. And by "the user's e-mail client," I mean > > exactly that. Do you know of an open-source/free IMAP client that can use a SQL db as it's datastore? I've been meaning to write one for about 2 years now, but other things keep coming up (and gmane now has reduced that motivation even further). Adi From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 10:42:05 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93C13195AC3 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7HHf8V29366; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:41:08 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:40:59 -0700 Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Barry Warsaw , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <15710.26365.51739.836360@anthem.wooz.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/173 X-Sequence-Number: 801 On 8/17/02 8:08 AM, "Barry A. Warsaw" wrote: > CVR> For OS X 10.2, Sherlock's now an interface to build web > CVR> applications. Basically, a framework to plug in code modules > > Very cool, I definitely want to investigate this. When docs are available, I'll let you know. I want to do a sherlock plugin for our list archives, but I don't have the api's yet. (FWIW, I just finished updating my TiBook to Jaguar. So far, the upgrade has been painless....) -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 10:48:05 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C37195AE2 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7HHkKV29426; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:46:20 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:46:13 -0700 Subject: Re: idea: Google Lists From: Chuq Von Rospach To: , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <63083328.1029577483@[192.168.254.8]> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/174 X-Sequence-Number: 802 On 8/17/02 6:44 AM, "Tom Neff" wrote: >> Google Groups isn't USENET. It's a USENET archive, which is a much > I don't want to drift off into semantics here. I'm trying to avoid that, too, but the problem I have is we're both agreeing that ot make USENET usable today, we have to gateway it into something entirely different and use it over there. That's like saying "I really like mailing lists, as long as you gateway into gmane where I can read them with my newsreader". That's a falsehood -- if that's what you believe, you don't LIKE mailing lists. You like the content, but not the delivery mechanism, and we get back into that hammer/nail thing -- the content is not the delivery mechanism... I'm trying to avoid us equating "usenet content" with "usenet", and "reading usenet content in a different environment that works" with "usenet works". -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Very funny, Scotty. Now beam my clothes down here, will you? From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 11:25:58 2002 Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A8DE7195FF2 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4472 invoked by uid 50); 17 Aug 2002 18:25:07 -0000 To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on References: In-Reply-To: (Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:15:49 -0700") From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:25:07 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 73 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090008 (Oort Gnus v0.08) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter, sparc-sun-solaris2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200208/175 X-Sequence-Number: 803 Chuq Von Rospach writes: > On 8/17/02 12:30 AM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: >> If Google were actually responsive, it would be usable. It's probably >> the best available one. > You just don't like blondes. (more correctly, you're already looking > forward to when web services turn them into redheads...) Maybe you could crank the arrogance down a few notches here? You're not the only technical person who has some experience working with non-technical users and some glimmerings of what they might like or not like, you know. I know web interfaces are all the fad now, mostly because for many problems they're the 50% solution and worse is better (for fairly undstandable and sound reasons). That doesn't mean they're a panacea, even for unexperienced users. They're another interface choice. Some people prefer webmail clients; many people don't. Some people who prefer them do so primarily because of the convenience of access and just put up with the interface and the slowness of access. Some of the people who prefer them prefer them for reasons that have nothing to do with the user interface and everything to do with their confusion about the idea of launching multiple applications to "access the Internet." And some of the people who prefer them do so because they want to keep all their mail on a remote server for various reasons, such as privacy concerns, and IMAP isn't an option for them. Those people who really do prefer the interface will, again, want web archives that have the same interface as their preferred mail client. So if their preferred mail client is Hotmail, then those people will be well-served by a traditional web-based mailing list archive. If it isn't, they won't be. I think you can get there with read-only IMAP folders, down the road. If that becomes a popular protocol for providing mailing list archives, some of the web mail systems will start offering support for it. > But they're also comfortable with the browser interface That depends on how they read their mail. If they read their mail with a webmail reader, then yes, they are. If they read their mail with something else, then no, they're not, *not for reading mail*. They're not used to a browser interface exactly; they're used to a *web page* interface, which comes with a bunch of assumptions of how you navigate and what sort of information you're looking at. If your mailing list is a mailing list to send out web pages, then a web page archive works pretty well. HTML announcement lists and that sort of a thing fit into that paradigm quite well. If your mailing list is a list for mail messages, then you're doing a transformation of a mail message into a web page, and users are used to dealing with mail in their mail client are having to learn a new *mail* interface to deal with the mailing list archives. There's one thing I know extremely well. The vast majority of users *hate* learning a new mail interface. This is why we still have (very non-technical) users who use mm, despite the fact that it's a horrible mail reader by modern standards and can't even understand MIME. They've been using mm since TOPS-20, and that's what they understand. Just because it's in their web browser doesn't mean it's a familiar user interface. Any complicated web application (and a halfway decent mailing list archive with good search capability and support for threading *is* a complicated web application) is essentially a brand-new user interface. It's built on top of standard building blocks, which makes it easier to learn just like interfaces built on the standard look and feel of a desktop platform are easier to learn, but there's still a learning curve compared to giving them their archives inside their mail client. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 11:32:01 2002 Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 499B3195B01 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4483 invoked by uid 50); 17 Aug 2002 18:31:11 -0000 To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: IMAP from a DB? [was Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: References: <20020817163320.GA73335@mighty.grot.org> In-Reply-To: <20020817163320.GA73335@mighty.grot.org> (Aditya's message of "Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:33:20 -0700") From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:31:11 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 33 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090008 (Oort Gnus v0.08) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter, sparc-sun-solaris2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200208/176 X-Sequence-Number: 804 Aditya writes: > Do you know of an open-source/free IMAP client that can use a SQL db as > it's datastore? I've been meaning to write one for about 2 years now, > but other things keep coming up (and gmane now has reduced that > motivation even further). No, unfortunately, I don't. For both mail and news, not many people use SQL databases, since for the typical mail and news operations, general SQL databases are just too slow compared to storage formats written specifically for the common operations of the protocol. (Note that mbox files aren't the latter; mbox files are just horrible in all respects.) I don't think anyone's really worked on providing access to archives using standard protocols. NNTP software by and large handles it better than mail software out of the box, since NNTP is by nature somewhat less transient. Most mail server software is still based on the assumption that the user is going to suck all their mail down to their local system at most every few days and then searching will be the problem of their mail client, although IMAP is changing this very slowly. But neither have really thought about what would be required to provide access to a permanent archive spanning years of data. It's a much different problem with much different standard operations. (This is one of the common complaints that we get from our users about IMAP service. If they use our centralized IMAP servers, based on Cyrus, then all their mail is stored in databases on the server that they don't have direct access to, and that makes searching for things too painful because IMAP's search commands just aren't up to snuff yet.) -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 11:54:28 2002 Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77A85195B01 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g7HIrXm60526 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:53:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: from tom-w2kc (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g7HIrWU60454 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:53:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:56:02 -0400 From: Tom Neff Reply-To: tneff@grassyhill.org To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: idea: Google Lists Message-ID: <81762046.1029596162@[192.168.254.8]> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) Organization: Grassy Hill Entertainment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanner: scanned by Inflex 1.0.12.3 - http://pldaniels.com/inflex X-Archive-Number: 200208/177 X-Sequence-Number: 805 --On Saturday, August 17, 2002 10:46 AM -0700 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 8/17/02 6:44 AM, "Tom Neff" wrote: >>> Google Groups isn't USENET. It's a USENET archive, which is a much > >> I don't want to drift off into semantics here. > > I'm trying to avoid that, too, but the problem I have is we're both > agreeing that ot make USENET usable today, we have to gateway it into > something entirely different and use it over there. That's like saying "I > really like mailing lists, as long as you gateway into gmane where I can > read them with my newsreader". Just to clarify, I am not saying that Usenet needs to be gatewayed somewhere else to be usable. Usenet works fine on its own terms. But it was not invented for the purpose of browsably archiving mailing lists, and for that bonus functionality, it's best to graft something like Google Groups onto it. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 12:38:26 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5DC1959E9 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17g9OB-0002yU-00 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:37:35 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17g9OA-0002yJ-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:37:34 -0700 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: mailman-developers@python.org, List Managers Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] Anti-spam "killer app"? In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:10:45 PDT." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:37:34 -0700 Message-ID: <11426.1029613054@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: chuqui@plaidworks.com, mailman-developers@python.org, List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: +33vqRspbtrbz3wPce1v4dlguxo X-Archive-Number: 200208/178 X-Sequence-Number: 806 On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:10:45 -0700 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > ... > Damn, I wish I'd thought of this. Keep thinking about it. In essence it is a merely a finer grained scoring system. It doesn't fundamentally change the spam cold war; it moves the challenge to "writing spam messages which look even more like 'real' messages" on a statistical sampling level. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 12:53:02 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91072195AFB for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17g9cK-000312-00 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:52:12 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17g9cK-00030t-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:52:12 -0700 To: JC Dill Cc: List Managers Subject: Re: Mailing List Mirror/Archive RFC? [Was Re: The gmane issue] In-Reply-To: Message from JC Dill of "Sat, 17 Aug 2002 08:22:12 PDT." <5.0.0.25.2.20020817082056.02fb6ba0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020816121305.0466feb0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <20020816170933.GA27771@mighty.grot.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20020815161849.03eac910@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <20020816170933.GA27771@mighty.grot.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20020816121305.0466feb0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20020817082056.02fb6ba0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:52:12 -0700 Message-ID: <11586.1029613932@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: inet-list@vo.cnchost.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: 6+RUNhQdPooGzgiAYcI69Vo/Mmc X-Archive-Number: 200208/179 X-Sequence-Number: 807 On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 08:22:12 -0700 JC Dill wrote: > On 01:39 AM 8/17/02, J C Lawrence wrote: >> By seeing the headers during the two stage handshake for >> subscription. > That's a non-responsive answer. That isn't BEFORE subscribing, but > during. The answer is that unless you also have A or B, there is no > way for them to know, prior to subscribing, what your policy is. Hardly. Their investigation process of, "May I archive this list?" changes from: Go check an external resource to: Start a subscribe process and see if it tells me not to. They're __already__ going to be attempting a subscribe, so nothing changes in their work flow, data acquisition model, or decision making process. The header check merely adds another function point to the subscribe process, not a whole new discovery process. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 13:03:54 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C8ED195F4F for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17g9mp-00032n-00 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:03:03 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17g9mo-00032e-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:03:02 -0700 To: JC Dill Cc: List Managers Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: Message from JC Dill of "Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:08:01 PDT." <5.0.0.25.2.20020817082440.02fbce20@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020815161849.03eac910@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20020817082440.02fbce20@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:03:02 -0700 Message-ID: <11695.1029614582@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: inet-list@vo.cnchost.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: HOUg417sTmqxXjc4xcz22fpq7To X-Archive-Number: 200208/180 X-Sequence-Number: 808 On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:08:01 -0700 JC Dill wrote: > On 06:28 PM 8/16/02, Nick Simicich wrote: >> At 10:04 AM 2002-08-16 -0700, JC Dill wrote: > How hard is it to expect webmaster to take simple steps to announce > their policy? They need a *single* file indicating if spidering is > allowed or not, and they need a *single* header in the webpage to > indicate if it can be cached or not. > THIS WORKS > The reason it works is A) it is simple, and B) the burden is shared by > those with the content (who have to properly post their policy in the > robots.txt file and in their webpage headers) and those who seek to > search, mirror, or archive it (who must follow the content provider's > policy as it is conveyed in the file and header). robots.txt intercepts the data acquisition path that a spider normally and already uses in spidering. It just adds a new function point is grabbing that file too, in exactly the same way its already grabbing other web files. robot.txt doesn't add a new transport to the mix, it doesn't add a new protocol to the mix, it doesn't add a different third party service to the mix, and it doesn't require any changes to the web servers and their confiration and normal function. It merely very slightly tweaks what the robot was doing already: sucking nodes from URLs; and what the web server was doing stays exactly the same: serving files. Adding an equivalent of robots.txt to mailing lists under non-SMTP protocols violates the above models. Adding robots.txt as a pre-subscription check violates the above models for both "spider" and list server as well. Adding a flag header to the subscribe handshake requires no structural changes to the "spider" and damned close to no changes to the list server (which already sends those messages with custom content etc anyway). > Here is the meta tag format that tells all caches on the Internet not > to cache your webpage: > > Here is the format if you want to just specify no archive by google > alone: > > This is not hard. This WORKS. Actually, it works rather poorly and is *very* non-standardised. Yes, it might work with one cache, but your bets across the wider range of caches out there are damned low probability. <> -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 13:54:26 2002 Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C8324195F96 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4776 invoked by uid 50); 17 Aug 2002 20:53:34 -0000 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing References: In-Reply-To: (Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:33:41 -0700") From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:53:34 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 29 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090008 (Oort Gnus v0.08) XEmacs/21.4 (Honest Recruiter, sparc-sun-solaris2.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200208/181 X-Sequence-Number: 809 Chuq Von Rospach writes: > On 8/16/02 9:46 PM, "Nick Simicich" wrote: >> Now, let's think about this. It is impossible to do a good archive on >> the web because of round trip time, but the fact that gmane is at the >> other end of a Round Trip is not a problem? >> I don' get it, Lucy. Something is at work here other than round trip >> time. > I do. Think about how an iMap client works (or a usenet client) vs. a > web page. As you navigate the web page, you're doing a lot of loading > new pages and refreshing. With iMap and usenet, you download the key > header information and then the client manipulates it. > With web, you have a constant stream of relatively slow updates. With > iMap and NNTP, you have a slower startup time to load the data, but > faster browsing. And from a user perception view, that slower startup > time can be a lot less intrusive than constant small delays. Exactly. Combine that with the fact that modern NNTP clients can do message download in the background, so that by the time you're ready to read the next message, it's already been downloaded. It's much, much harder for a web browser to do that because it has to know things about the structure and order of the user's behavior that the NNTP client can make much better guesses at. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 14:11:32 2002 Received: from renown.cnchost.com (renown.concentric.net [207.155.248.7]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDC95195F20 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:11:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (adsl-208-201-244-240.sonic.net [208.201.244.240]) by renown.cnchost.com id RAA09309; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:10:25 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20020817131408.0320e090@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:09:36 -0700 To: List Managers From: JC Dill Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: <11695.1029614582@kanga.nu> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020817082440.02fbce20@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20020815161849.03eac910@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20020817082440.02fbce20@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/182 X-Sequence-Number: 810 On 01:03 PM 8/17/02, J C Lawrence wrote: >On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:08:01 -0700 >JC Dill wrote: >> On 06:28 PM 8/16/02, Nick Simicich wrote: >>> At 10:04 AM 2002-08-16 -0700, JC Dill wrote: > >> How hard is it to expect webmaster to take simple steps to announce >> their policy? They need a *single* file indicating if spidering is >> allowed or not, and they need a *single* header in the webpage to >> indicate if it can be cached or not. > >> THIS WORKS > >> The reason it works is A) it is simple, and B) the burden is shared by >> those with the content (who have to properly post their policy in the >> robots.txt file and in their webpage headers) and those who seek to >> search, mirror, or archive it (who must follow the content provider's >> policy as it is conveyed in the file and header). > >robots.txt intercepts the data acquisition path that a spider normally >and already uses in spidering. It just adds a new function point is >grabbing that file too, in exactly the same way its already grabbing >other web files. robot.txt doesn't add a new transport to the mix, it >doesn't add a new protocol to the mix, it doesn't add a different third >party service to the mix, and it doesn't require any changes to the web >servers and their confiration and normal function. It merely very >slightly tweaks what the robot was doing already: sucking nodes from >URLs; and what the web server was doing stays exactly the same: serving >files. > >Adding an equivalent of robots.txt to mailing lists under non-SMTP >protocols Where did this come from? My suggestion is that just as web spiders can find a robots.txt file (telling the spider what is or is not OK to search) on a webserver, so should an email querying a mailing list server for their policy find a policy document. The web query is done with HTTP, the email query would be done with SMTP. I thought my suggestion of a "similar system" (and not the "same system") made that clear. Also that I suggested that the data could be had in TWO ways (method A, method B). Method A is SMTP I *also* suggested that if the mailing list server has an associated website, that the policy be available on the website (method B). I never said this should be required, or suggested that it should be the only method of finding the policy. It does so happen, though, for mailing lists that have websites, that making this policy available thru the website would make it more easily found for PEOPLE who want to know what the policy happens to be. Most people are much more adept at going to the list server webpage and clicking on the various links than they are at sending email queries to the mail server. >violates the above models. Adding robots.txt as a >pre-subscription check violates the above models for both "spider" and >list server as well. Adding a flag header to the subscribe handshake >requires no structural changes to the "spider" and damned close to no >changes to the list server (which already sends those messages with >custom content etc anyway). > >> Here is the meta tag format that tells all caches on the Internet not >> to cache your webpage: > >> > >> Here is the format if you want to just specify no archive by google >> alone: > >> > >> This is not hard. This WORKS. > >Actually, it works rather poorly The googlebot extension was apparently created by Google to allow webpages to exclude this one specific cache while permitting other caches to cache the page (and visa-versa), and it works PERFECTLY. IMHO it's a much more elegant solution than Deja's x-no-archive hack. >and is *very* non-standardised. The meta tag format for indicating cachability of a webpage in general was covered in depth in section 14.9 (cache-control) of RFC 2616 (HTTP 1.1) which makes it standardized in my book. My experience has been that most caches comply with these tags quite well. >Yes, it might work with one cache, but your bets across the wider range of >caches out there are damned low probability. Yes, some web caches ignore the standard meta tag (also found at the URL I cited and you snipped) that no cache should ever cache the page. This doesn't mean the system is broken, it means that those caches are broken. You don't fix that by changing the system (using some other method of determining if caching is OK or not), but by fixing the broken caches that ignore the meta tag that says to not cache. jc From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 14:39:06 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EDE0195F92 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7HLc3V32279; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:38:03 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:37:54 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] Anti-spam "killer app"? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: J C Lawrence Cc: , List Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <11426.1029613054@kanga.nu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/183 X-Sequence-Number: 811 On 8/17/02 12:37 PM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: > Keep thinking about it. In essence it is a merely a finer grained > scoring system. It doesn't fundamentally change the spam cold war; Actually, I think it does fundamentally change it. You're not just making better guesses at what spammers say. You're effectively building a digital signature of what your REAL mail looks like, and comparing messages to it. The further it deviates from your real mail, the spammier it is. The only two ways for spammers to avoid this are to move to graphics, which can still be whacked on, and to stop using open relays and other things that leave noticable signatures in the headers. It might not catch the smartest spam, but it'll sure catch everything else. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ No! No! Dead girl, OFF the table! -- Shrek From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 15:33:59 2002 Received: from agamemnon.cnchost.com (agamemnon.cnchost.com [207.155.252.31]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFC80195BB6 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (adsl-208-201-244-240.sonic.net [208.201.244.240]) by agamemnon.cnchost.com id SAA21210; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:33:09 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20020817152554.03c04eb0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:33:44 -0700 To: List Managers From: JC Dill Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] Anti-spam "killer app"? Cc: In-Reply-To: References: <11426.1029613054@kanga.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/184 X-Sequence-Number: 812 On 02:37 PM 8/17/02, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >On 8/17/02 12:37 PM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: > >> Keep thinking about it. In essence it is a merely a finer grained >> scoring system. It doesn't fundamentally change the spam cold war; > >Actually, I think it does fundamentally change it. You're not just making >better guesses at what spammers say. You're effectively building a digital >signature of what your REAL mail looks like, and comparing messages to it. >The further it deviates from your real mail, the spammier it is. > >The only two ways for spammers to avoid this are to move to graphics Even then, it will still be easily sussed out. I'm on some hobby lists where people occasionally send short posts with an image attached. The small amount of text in the subject line and body, together with the headers of these desired messages, would all be very different from a similar spam message with little or no subject or body text and an attached image. I think the next big spam trick will be forged email to ObMailing lists. Why bother subscribing when you can suss out the address of a legit subscriber, forge your "from" header, and forge your mail server IP to claim to be that of that poster's normal mail server? As more and more ObMailing lists are archived on the web in a form viewable by anyone, this becomes a bigger and bigger problem. Email munging of web archives is often insufficient, email addresses are left unmunged in the body, or are often easily guessed from the remaining bits of the from header. jc From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 16:18:04 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04EBA195F30 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.186] (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7HNGNV01102; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:16:23 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:16:16 -0700 Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Russ Allbery , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/185 X-Sequence-Number: 813 On 8/17/02 11:25 AM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: > Maybe you could crank the arrogance down a few notches here? Didn't realize I was being arrogant. Sorry. > You're not > the only technical person who has some experience working with > non-technical users and some glimmerings of what they might like or not > like, you know. And wasn't implying that, either. Sorry if you took it that way. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 20:05:08 2002 Received: from taos.firemountain.net (taos.firemountain.net [207.114.3.54]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F59195F1C for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (balt-6-46.dynamic-dialup.coretel.net [162.33.94.46]) by taos.firemountain.net (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g7I32oC8028639 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:02:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from avatar.gsp.org ([192.168.0.11]) by gsp.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7I31kA16186 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:01:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by avatar.gsp.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g7I32Xj13797 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:02:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:02:32 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: idea: Google Lists Message-ID: <20020818030232.GD13764@gsp.org> References: <63083328.1029577483@[192.168.254.8]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Archive-Number: 200208/186 X-Sequence-Number: 814 I can hardly believe that I agree with several people simultaneously. (Obviously the Zac 'n Jack is working well today. ;-) ) Anyway: I've often thought about "Google Lists" because it would be very useful to be able to go to one place and search many, many mailing lists. And frankly, I kinda like the Google Groups interface (though I do not like the fact that they call it that; they're Usenet newsgroups, not Google Groups). They certainly provide a much better service than DejaNews did -- and they're not spammers, unlike Deja. However, there's a difference between articles posted to Usenet and messages sent to mailing lists. [insert long argument over exactly what those differences are] But the utility of having a single search interface and a competently-maintained archive of mailing lists, with the decision on inclusion delegated to the owners of mailing lists, would be large. Perhaps archives.org would be more appropriate? (I *like* Google and for the most part feel that they behave responsibly toward the Internet community. However, having watched other companies that started out that way and then became greedy pigs as they grew, I'm reserving judgement for a few more years. NOT that I'm in love with archive.org, but I'm guessing that it might possibly be more appropriate.) There are a number of sites that do a subset of this: here's one (picked quasi-randomly): http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/ However, lack of a single site with a unified search interface and appropriate measures to (a) ensure that mailing list owners have granted permission and (b) ensure that email addresses are obfuscated to prevent mass-harvesting by spambots need to be addressed. I would argue that (a) needs to include permission on BOTH sides: if I were running a mailing list archive site, I would not necessarily agree to archive every mailing list that asked. And as an operator of mailing lists, I wouldn't necessarily agree to having them all archived. As to (b) as a member of many mailing lists, I would prefer that the addresses that I've used to subscribe to those remain within the bounds of the mailing lists and not be exposed to 'net-wide searching. (Though I'm well aware that there are other mechanisms available to determined spammers.) In the interim, all of my mailing lists include: X-No-Archive: yes for the same reason that some of my web sites include robots.txt and my sendmail answers (in part) "NO UBE". The only people that have uniformly ignored all of these to date -- are, predictably, the most vile, filthy scumbags on the Internet: spammers. ---Rsk From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 20:34:18 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47145195B18 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17gGoh-0003pD-00 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:33:27 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17gGog-0003p4-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:33:26 -0700 To: Rich Kulawiec Cc: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: idea: Google Lists In-Reply-To: Message from Rich Kulawiec of "Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:02:32 EDT." <20020818030232.GD13764@gsp.org> References: <63083328.1029577483@[192.168.254.8]> <20020818030232.GD13764@gsp.org> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:33:26 -0700 Message-ID: <14697.1029641606@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: rsk@magpage.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: ozYUyfTwF6SMmt735/MKiVQ5nwg X-Archive-Number: 200208/187 X-Sequence-Number: 815 On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:02:32 -0400 Rich Kulawiec wrote: > But the utility of having a single search interface and a > competently-maintained archive of mailing lists, with the decision on > inclusion delegated to the owners of mailing lists, would be large. The second order costs of SPOF, let alone single points of control and concentrated target effects are massive, and to my mind, far exceed any possible gain from such a concentration. > However, lack of a single site with a unified search interface > ... need to be addressed. Suffice to say that I strongly if not violently disagree. Consider: VA Software, nee VA Linux, nee VA Research is entering deep financial trouble. They are a medium order acquisition target (would be more so if their gross value were not dominated by community good will). The costs of running SourceForge.Net are large (see their financial reports and do some between-the-line reading). If/when VA folds or pulls most/all the support for SF the cumulative effect on the hosted projects and mailing lists will not be small. This is not to say that Google will fold, but it is to note that Google is not immortal or immune to external forces. > In the interim, all of my mailing lists include: > X-No-Archive: yes I should probably note that I configure my systems, and my archiving setups in particular to ignore the X-No-Archive header. I'm no fan of rewriting history, popular tho others may find it. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 21:00:10 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 213A9195ADD for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7I3x7V04343; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:59:07 -0700 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:59:02 -0700 Subject: Re: idea: Google Lists Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Cc: Chuq Von Rospach , Rich Kulawiec , List Managers Mailing list To: J C Lawrence From: Chuq Von Rospach In-Reply-To: <14697.1029641606@kanga.nu> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) X-Archive-Number: 200208/188 X-Sequence-Number: 816 On Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 08:33 PM, J C Lawrence wrote: > > If/when VA folds or pulls most/all the support for SF the cumulative > effect on the hosted projects and mailing lists will not be small. I've actually heard strong alternative views. Yes, SourceForge is a strong central location for all of this, but almost all significant projects hosted by SF also have some non-local hosting place as well. A loss of SourceForge would create chaos, but most projects would move forward after they could tie themselves back together. I thought you were headed in a different direction. I'm actually amazed you didn't bring it up. What if Google sets all of that up for lists and runs it for a year or two, and life is wonderful -- and then Google gets bought by AOL/Time-Warner? or some other mega-group? And they change the privacy and usage rules? Sites shutting down we can handle. Becoming dependent on a site that goes through a, well, reorganization is my big worry. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sat Aug 17 21:15:01 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DAED195AA8 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17gHS7-0003tk-00 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:14:11 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17gHS6-0003tZ-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:14:10 -0700 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Rich Kulawiec , List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: idea: Google Lists In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:59:02 PDT." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:14:10 -0700 Message-ID: <14976.1029644050@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: chuqui@plaidworks.com, rsk@magpage.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: bljmqRumZSIhtc5FEzaZ5r7SIgY X-Archive-Number: 200208/189 X-Sequence-Number: 817 On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:59:02 -0700 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 08:33 PM, J C Lawrence wrote: >> If/when VA folds or pulls most/all the support for SF the cumulative >> effect on the hosted projects and mailing lists will not be small. > I've actually heard strong alternative views. Yes, SourceForge is a > strong central location for all of this, but almost all significant > projects hosted by SF also have some non-local hosting place as > well. A loss of SourceForge would create chaos, but most projects > would move forward after they could tie themselves back together. Yeah, that's why I wrote, "not small", versus things like the "global disaster", I've gotten elsewhere, > I thought you were headed in a different direction. I'm actually > amazed you didn't bring it up. What if Google sets all of that up for > lists and runs it for a year or two, and life is wonderful -- and then > Google gets bought by AOL/Time-Warner? or some other mega-group? And > they change the privacy and usage rules? I kinda figured that was covered by the "not immune to external forces", especially given the previous poster's reference to large companies changing due to business model changes and acquisitions. > Sites shutting down we can handle. Becoming dependent on a site that > goes through a, well, reorganization is my big worry. Agreed, but I'll quietly note that should Google fry, it holds the only consolidated Usenet archive on the planet. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 08:53:00 2002 Received: from pat.uio.no (pat.uio.no [129.240.130.16]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F83195FF3 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stjorn.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.66.225]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #7) id 17gop5-0000Ob-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:52:07 +0200 Received: from localhost (thomas@localhost) by stjorn.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:52:06 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:52:06 +0200 (MEST) From: Thomas Gramstad Reply-To: Thomas Gramstad To: JC Dill Cc: List Managers Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020815161849.03eac910@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Message-ID: X-Contact-Me-Info: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/ X-My-Lists: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lists/ X-Best-Listserver: Majordomo 2 - http://csf.colorado.edu/mj/ X-Post-Objectivism: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/po/articles.html X-Amazons-Ring: http://H.webring.com/hub?ring=amazonsinternati X-Grrl: I love Janice X-For-Media: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/pix/ X-Bli-Med-I-EFN: http://www.efn.no/ X-Boktips: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lister/amasoner-bok.html X-ena: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lister/xena.html X-en-Buddhism: Clap one hand now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/190 X-Sequence-Number: 818 On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, JC Dill wrote: > I just had the following discussion with someone who discovered > his list was added to gmane without his permission. The > following quote segment several emails into our discussion has > text from me, him, and my reply: [...] >>>> Would you support an RFC that addresses mirroring of mailing >>>> lists and specifies a listname-mirrors.txt file that can be >>>> obtained from the list server and which tells the >>>> mirror-to-be what the mirroring policy is for the list in >>>> question? >>> Would I support it? Yes. Will I write it? No. >> I wasn't asking you to write it. I just think it would be an >> acceptable solution, and wanted your input. I'll toss it back >> to the listmanagers list and see what they say. :-) > So, my question to list-managers: Do you support the suggestion > that list managers/owners have some responsibility (ala > robots.txt) for telling those who wish to mirror or archive the > list what the list rules are? > If so, do you support the idea of this file being made available 1, 2, or > all 3 of the following ways: > > A) As a separate file that can be requested from the list server > (like an info file) via email; > B) A file to be found on the list server's website (like robots.txt) > if there is a website; and > C) Included in the welcome message. I support it in all 3 ways at the same time (redundancy is often a good thing, and certainly in this case). I don't volunteer to write the RFC, but I volunteer to proofread and comment on it. Or, how about using this list as a forum to produce and refine it. One thing that should be discussed (on this list and perhaps in the RFC), is the default setting in the listservers. Since 95 % of today's list owners never deviate from default settings, the default settings will have a profound effect on how this will work. Thomas Gramstad thomas@ifi.uio.no From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 09:17:34 2002 Received: from pat.uio.no (pat.uio.no [129.240.130.16]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A01195F85 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stjorn.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.66.225]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #7) id 17gpCr-0003lK-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:16:41 +0200 Received: from localhost (thomas@localhost) by stjorn.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:16:41 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:16:41 +0200 (MEST) From: Thomas Gramstad Reply-To: Thomas Gramstad To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: <29703.1029519145@kanga.nu> Message-ID: X-Contact-Me-Info: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/ X-My-Lists: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lists/ X-Best-Listserver: Majordomo 2 - http://csf.colorado.edu/mj/ X-Post-Objectivism: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/po/articles.html X-Amazons-Ring: http://H.webring.com/hub?ring=amazonsinternati X-Grrl: I love Janice X-For-Media: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/pix/ X-Bli-Med-I-EFN: http://www.efn.no/ X-Boktips: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lister/amasoner-bok.html X-ena: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lister/xena.html X-en-Buddhism: Clap one hand now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/191 X-Sequence-Number: 819 On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, J C Lawrence wrote: > On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:09:33 -0700 > aditya wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 10:04:41AM -0700, JC Dill wrote: >>> If so, do you support the idea of this file being made available 1, >>> 2, or all 3 of the following ways: >>> A) As a separate file that can be requested from the list server >>> (like an info file) via email; B) A file to be found on the list >>> server's website (like robots.txt) if there is a website; and C) >>> Included in the welcome message. >> D) Included as a header AND a machine-parseable line in the body of >> the confirmation AND welcome message. > I pick #D. Why pick? We'll never be able to enforce compliance by listserver producers anyway. --> E) All/any of the above. Thomas Gramstad thomas@ifi.uio.no From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 09:31:33 2002 Received: from mail.wooz.org (dsl093-082-039.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.82.39]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BEA8196004 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.wooz.org (Postfix, from userid 889) id 5CF9FD3800; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:30:40 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15713.7472.271732.570077@anthem.wooz.org> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:30:40 -0400 To: Thomas Gramstad Cc: JC Dill , List Managers Subject: Re: The gmane issue References: X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) X-Attribution: BAW X-Oblique-Strategy: Disconnect from desire X-Url: http://barry.wooz.org X-Archive-Number: 200208/192 X-Sequence-Number: 820 >>>>> "TG" == Thomas Gramstad writes: TG> One thing that should be discussed (on this list and perhaps TG> in the RFC), is the default setting in the listservers. Since TG> 95 % of today's list owners never deviate from default TG> settings, the default settings will have a profound effect on TG> how this will work. This is probably true, but I doubt you can come up with a default that will satisfy even a majority of users, because they all want something different. This is also probably more true across listserver applications, which might be self selecting users with similar privacy requirements. -Barry From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 09:35:52 2002 Received: from pat.uio.no (pat.uio.no [129.240.130.16]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF6A195FF5 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stjorn.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.66.225]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #7) id 17gpUa-0005iG-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:35:00 +0200 Received: from localhost (thomas@localhost) by stjorn.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:35:00 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:35:00 +0200 (MEST) From: Thomas Gramstad Reply-To: Thomas Gramstad To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Contact-Me-Info: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/ X-My-Lists: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lists/ X-Best-Listserver: Majordomo 2 - http://csf.colorado.edu/mj/ X-Post-Objectivism: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/po/articles.html X-Amazons-Ring: http://H.webring.com/hub?ring=amazonsinternati X-Grrl: I love Janice X-For-Media: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/pix/ X-Bli-Med-I-EFN: http://www.efn.no/ X-Boktips: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lister/amasoner-bok.html X-ena: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lister/xena.html X-en-Buddhism: Clap one hand now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/193 X-Sequence-Number: 821 On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > There's already a defacto standard of X-No-Archive for "do not > archive this message". > > How about creating another header: > > X-No-Archive-List: (descriptive string). X-No-Archive-List: is too similar to X-No-Archive-List:. They would be confused with each other. Also, X-No-Archive-List: is not accurate: some of us want to allow private archives (available only for the users of a particular machine, organization or intranet), but not public ones. Perhaps X-No-Public-Archive-List: would work. Thomas Gramstad thomas@ifi.uio.no From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 09:52:11 2002 Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2FFC1959D7 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-vcaun8v.dsl.mindspring.com ([216.175.93.31] helo=queernet.org) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17gpkM-0007eR-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:51:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3D61221B.80307@queernet.org> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:51:39 -0700 From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.1b) Gecko/20020727 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, fr-be, fr-ca, fr-fr, MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Gramstad Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: The gmane issue References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/194 X-Sequence-Number: 822 Thomas Gramstad wrote: > > >X-No-Archive-List: is too similar to X-No-Archive-List:. They >would be confused with each other. Also, X-No-Archive-List: is >not accurate: some of us want to allow private archives (available >only for the users of a particular machine, organization or >intranet), but not public ones. Perhaps X-No-Public-Archive-List: >would work. > Besides, wouldn't it make more sense as X-List-No-Public-Archive: -- that is, put it in the List-* namespace? From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 09:59:16 2002 Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62EC1195B21 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g7JGwDo11933 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:58:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: from tom-w2kc (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g7JGwBU11863 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:58:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:00:08 -0400 From: Tom Neff Reply-To: tneff@grassyhill.org To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: The gmane issue Message-ID: <247607718.1029762008@[192.168.254.8]> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) Organization: Grassy Hill Entertainment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanner: scanned by Inflex 1.0.12.3 - http://pldaniels.com/inflex X-Archive-Number: 200208/195 X-Sequence-Number: 823 --On Monday, August 19, 2002 6:35 PM +0200 Thomas Gramstad wrote: > X-No-Archive-List: is too similar to X-No-Archive-List:. They > would be confused with each other. Oh, how can you say that? They are completely different!! :) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 10:38:30 2002 Received: from tarsus.cisto.com (tarsus.cisto.com [195.97.240.29]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30A3C195AD9 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-mu-6-2-dialup-216.freesurf.ch [194.230.139.216]) by tarsus.cisto.com (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29273; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g7JHc0i18428; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:38:00 +0200 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:38:00 +0200 Message-Id: <200208191738.g7JHc0i18428@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: thomas@ifi.uio.no Cc: inet-list@vo.cnchost.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: (message from Thomas Gramstad on Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:52:06 +0200 (MEST)) Subject: Re: The gmane issue References: X-Archive-Number: 200208/196 X-Sequence-Number: 824 > On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, JC Dill wrote: > > So, my question to list-managers: Do you support the suggestion > > that list managers/owners have some responsibility (ala > > robots.txt) for telling those who wish to mirror or archive the > > list what the list rules are? Actually I believe that such a responsibility exists only where the list-owners want the situation to be different from the default that is implied by copyright law, namely: * Without explicit permission, no-one is allowed to mirror the list, or create public archives. * Just telling people about the existence of the list (by mentioning it in a directory of lists) is ok even without explicit permission. I support the idea of creating an RFC about a simple and yet sufficiently powerful and machine-parseable format for communicating whatever rules the list-owner wants to be applicable to any given list. > > If so, do you support the idea of this file being made available 1, 2, or > > all 3 of the following ways: > > > > A) As a separate file that can be requested from the list server > > (like an info file) via email; > > B) A file to be found on the list server's website (like robots.txt) > > if there is a website; and > > C) Included in the welcome message. Thomas Gramstad replied: > I support it in all 3 ways at the same time (redundancy is often a good > thing, and certainly in this case). Hmm... a requirement to put it on the list server's website could in some cases make things hellishly complicated. But for those lists which have a subscribe page on the website, it's easily possible. The URL for the rpolicy.txt or whatever file can be included in a META tag on the subscribe page. For those lists where people are invited to subscribe via email, it will work to have a special autoresponder address, which would be determined by appending -rpolicy to the localpart of the email address. For example, for the list staff@example.com the autoresponder address would be staff-rpolicy@example.com In addition, I think it should included at the end of the subscription confirmation message and the welcome message. With legacy mailing list software installations, the welcome message may very well be the only place where the list-owner is actually able to put the information. > I don't volunteer to write the RFC, but I volunteer to proofread and > comment on it. Or, how about using this list as a forum to produce > and refine it. I'm willing to serve as editor for this RFC. I think that the discussions of minor details should be moved to a separate list, while the discussions for getting a rough consensus on all potentially controversial points would be quite on topic here. > One thing that should be discussed (on this list and perhaps in the > RFC), is the default setting in the listservers. Since 95 % of > today's list owners never deviate from default settings, the > default settings will have a profound effect on how this will work. I think that will naturally vary from listserver to listserver, depending on the views of whoever gets to make that decision. Greetings, Norbert. -- Founder & Steering Committee member of http://gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://norbert.ch List hosting with GNU Mailman on your own domain name http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 11:02:08 2002 Received: from celery.tssi.com (celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A62BE195B22 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 14006 invoked by uid 1000); 19 Aug 2002 18:01:16 -0000 Message-ID: <20020819180116.14005.qmail@celery.tssi.com> From: nolan@celery.tssi.com Subject: Re: The gmane issue To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:01:16 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/197 X-Sequence-Number: 825 Norbert Bollow wrote: > Actually I believe that such a responsibility exists only where > the list-owners want the situation to be different from the default > that is implied by copyright law, namely: OMIGOD, you still believe in the copyright law? :-) > I support the idea of creating an RFC about a simple and yet > sufficiently powerful and machine-parseable format for communicating > whatever rules the list-owner wants to be applicable to any given > list. That's an excellent idea, I can think of a variety of rules that could be promulgated that way, not just archiving policies. Let's do it! -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 11:15:16 2002 Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.176.124.156]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DB9B195F8D for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toshiba.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6097F351E3 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:14:24 -0400 (EDT) X-America-Has-Resolve: yes X-Message-Flag: Microsoft Outlook is insecure. Upgrade your Mail Program Now! Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819140145.0687ba48@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:05:24 -0400 To: List Managers From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: <15713.7472.271732.570077@anthem.wooz.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-399199C; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/198 X-Sequence-Number: 826 At 12:30 PM 2002-08-19 -0400, Barry A. Warsaw wrote: >This is probably true, but I doubt you can come up with a default that >will satisfy even a majority of users, because they all want something >different. This is also probably more true across listserver >applications, which might be self selecting users with similar privacy >requirements. I disagree. The clear majority wish for this setting would be "hell no". None of the people who pay me for service want this. YMMV. It is not even close. No one I have talked to outside of a few on this list think that this is a good idea. And if we allow a vote per list, the only vote that counts, most likely, is queernet, since they have so many lists and they have strict privacy guidelines that would most likely disallow this for the vast majority of their lists. - My grandfather used to tell me, "When three people tell you that you are drunk, lie down, you're drunk." My grandfather trusted people. Nick Simicich mailto:njs@scifi.squawk.com http://scifi.squawk.com/njs.html -- Stop by and Light Up The World! From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 11:18:54 2002 Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (unknown [205.229.168.203]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9EA1959EC for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from speedy (unknown [192.168.2.131]) by mail.otherwhen.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DD117C0E5 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:17:58 -0600 (MDT) From: "Mike Avery" To: List Managers List Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:17:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Anti-spam "killer app"? Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com Message-ID: <3D60E1F0.23588.843CCB7@localhost> References: In-reply-to: <6574291B-B15B-11D6-8FD9-003065F94B0A@postmodern.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Archive-Number: 200208/199 X-Sequence-Number: 827 On 16 Aug 2002 at 14:01, Michael C. Berch wrote: > On Friday, August 16, 2002, at 01:10 PM, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > > > > It's a new technique for > identifying spam. The more I look into the > details, > the more I > think we have the "anti-spam killer app", becaues it tunes > itself > > to the individual (or site), adapts as the anti-spammers adapt, and > the > technique used is fairly easy to implement and damn difficult > for a > spammer > to avoid.... > People have been talking about Bayesian filtering for spam for quite a > while. It is definitely very promising. But the easiest way to > defeat it -- which also works against sophisticated pattern-matching > algorithms as in SpamAssassin -- is simply to make the payload of your > spam an image, which cannot be turned into lexical tokens for Bayesian > analysis. Even if a clickable link is appended, that will not provide > sufficient information to declare something spam, since people send > URLs to each other all the time. You can simply assert that a > message consisting only of an image and a link is spam, but that's not > Bayesian, that's just a semantic pattern. However, given the dangers of unknown links in email, and the nature of those who are sending only images and links, or links to an image and other links, I think it's a reasonable approach. No text message = no message delivery is cool with me. Mike -- Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230 Phone: 970-642-0282 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: I still don't have a handle on life, but I have its FCB. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 11:20:05 2002 Received: from taos.firemountain.net (taos.firemountain.net [207.114.3.54]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98405196075 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (balt-6-207.dynamic-dialup.coretel.net [162.33.94.207]) by taos.firemountain.net (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g7JIHtRS009921 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:17:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from avatar.gsp.org ([192.168.0.11]) by gsp.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7JIGlA18043 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:16:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by avatar.gsp.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g7JIHbM22198 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:17:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:17:36 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: idea: Google Lists Message-ID: <20020819181736.GA21192@gsp.org> References: <63083328.1029577483@[192.168.254.8]> <20020818030232.GD13764@gsp.org> <14697.1029641606@kanga.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <14697.1029641606@kanga.nu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Archive-Number: 200208/200 X-Sequence-Number: 828 On Sat, Aug 17, 2002 at 08:33:26PM -0700, J C Lawrence wrote: > The second order costs of SPOF, let alone single points of control and > concentrated target effects are massive, and to my mind, far exceed any > possible gain from such a concentration. Well, I certainly share the concern about SPOF. (For example, I'd really really really like it if Google donated a complete copy of the Usenet archive to archives.org or some other entity that could be reasonably relied on to take good care of it.) > If/when VA folds or pulls most/all the support for SF the cumulative > effect on the hosted projects and mailing lists will not be small. Hmmm...yeah, you could be right. But a lot of those projects actually live elsewhere, and their mailing lists are hosted elsewhere. To be sure, SF folding up its tent would disrupt things (and cause a stampede to FreshMeat) but I think things would be spliced back together reasonably quickly...months? > This is not to say that Google will fold, but it is to note that Google > is not immortal or immune to external forces. Understood. My biggest concern would not be that it would go away, but that it would be purchased by someone intent on unethically exploiting it for gain. [Where what "unethical exploitation" means is probably a whole debate in and of itself, but my prime worry, based on previous episodes, would be that it would fall into the hands of marketroids.] > > In the interim, all of my mailing lists include: > > > X-No-Archive: yes > > I should probably note that I configure my systems, and my archiving > setups in particular to ignore the X-No-Archive header. I'm no fan of > rewriting history, popular tho others may find it. I don't have it there to rewrite history. I have no intention of doing that. I have it there because (over the years) I've caught several different entities archiving my lists and doing things that I don't approve of -- like selling access to it for profit. (All my lists are free and I don't put advertising on them. I've paid all their costs for many years. I get annoyed when someone else starts charging for what I'm giving away.) Or publishing the archives on the web, thus exposing subscriber addresses to spambot harvesting. And so on. (And yes, this is all covered in the signup info that every new subscriber gets.) The archives [of my lists] that I have are complete to the best of my technical ability to make them so and are available to subscribers. I have no intention of rewriting them other than cosmetic changes to make them more usable and the removal of any spam that leaked through. ---Rsk From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 11:21:08 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4837819616E for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vg0601f-dhcp150.apple.com (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7JIExi18608; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:15:03 -0700 Subject: Re: The gmane issue Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Cc: thomas@ifi.uio.no, inet-list@vo.cnchost.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com To: Norbert Bollow From: Chuq Von Rospach In-Reply-To: <200208191738.g7JHc0i18428@quill.local> Message-Id: <94C8EDE0-B39F-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) X-Archive-Number: 200208/201 X-Sequence-Number: 829 On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 10:38 AM, Norbert Bollow wrote: > Actually I believe that such a responsibility exists only where > the list-owners want the situation to be different from the default > that is implied by copyright law, namely: > > * Without explicit permission, no-one is allowed to mirror the list, > or create public archives. > > * Just telling people about the existence of the list (by mentioning > it in a directory of lists) is ok even without explicit permission. Why do you believe those are implied by copyright law? I'm curious what your rationale is. > -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ IMHO: Jargon. Acronym for In My Humble Opinion. Used to flag as an opinion something that is clearly from context an opinion to everyone except the mentally dense. Opinions flagged by IMHO are actually rarely humble. IMHO. (source: third unabridged dictionary of chuqui-isms). From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 12:06:59 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (oldradio.net [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83476195F16 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (lof@chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03964; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:05:50 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Envelope-To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <94C8EDE0-B39F-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> References: <200208191738.g7JHc0i18428@quill.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:05:45 -0400 To: Chuq Von Rospach , Norbert Bollow From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: The gmane issue Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com X-Archive-Number: 200208/202 X-Sequence-Number: 830 At 2:15 PM -0400 8/19/02, Chuq Von Rospach is rumored to have typed: > On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 10:38 AM, Norbert Bollow wrote: > > * Without explicit permission, no-one is allowed to mirror the list, > > or create public archives. > > > > * Just telling people about the existence of the list (by mentioning > > it in a directory of lists) is ok even without explicit permission. > Why do you believe those are implied by copyright law? I'm curious what > your rationale is. http://www.copyright.gov/faq.html#q38 http://www.copyright.gov/faq.html#q47 http://www.copyright.gov/faq.html#q60 As always, contact an attorney who speaializes in copyright law for specific advice (most attorneys aren't versed in this area of the law; make sure you find a specialist). Charlie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 12:48:40 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0C0F195B7E for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vg0601f-dhcp150.apple.com (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7JJkti29835; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:46:59 -0700 Subject: Re: The gmane issue Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, Norbert Bollow To: Charlie Summers From: Chuq Von Rospach In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <6D06E25A-B3AC-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) X-Archive-Number: 200208/203 X-Sequence-Number: 831 On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 12:05 PM, Charlie Summers wrote: >> Why do you believe those are implied by copyright law? I'm curious >> what >> your rationale is. > > http://www.copyright.gov/faq.html#q38 > > http://www.copyright.gov/faq.html#q47 > > http://www.copyright.gov/faq.html#q60 Thanks. > As always, contact an attorney who speaializes in copyright law for > specific advice Oh, I have. A few times. If only it were this simple. (but since I'm not an attorney, I'll leave it at that). -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 13:04:13 2002 Received: from renown.cnchost.com (renown.concentric.net [207.155.248.7]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C07196229 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (adsl-208-201-244-240.sonic.net [208.201.244.240]) by renown.cnchost.com id QAA15795; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:03:12 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20020819123912.038caaf0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:02:15 -0700 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: JC Dill Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: References: <94C8EDE0-B39F-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> <200208191738.g7JHc0i18428@quill.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/204 X-Sequence-Number: 832 On 12:05 PM 8/19/02, Charlie Summers wrote: >At 2:15 PM -0400 8/19/02, Chuq Von Rospach is rumored to have typed: > >> On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 10:38 AM, Norbert Bollow wrote: > >> > * Without explicit permission, no-one is allowed to mirror the list, >> > or create public archives. >> > >> > * Just telling people about the existence of the list (by mentioning >> > it in a directory of lists) is ok even without explicit permission. > >> Why do you believe those are implied by copyright law? I'm curious what >> your rationale is. > >http://www.copyright.gov/faq.html#q38 > >http://www.copyright.gov/faq.html#q47 > >http://www.copyright.gov/faq.html#q60 One could argue that subscribing and mirroring a mailing list on the Internet is akin to the paper book parallel of buying a single copy of a book then putting it in a lending library. In both cases, the "owner" provided the item to subsequently be shared (via the mailing list subscription or the book sale). Both purposes serve to make the information available to a wider group of people. Lending libraries are permitted by copyright law, even though many book publishers were against the idea when libraries first became popular. Why should mailing list mirrors and archives be treated differently? Note: I'm NOT saying they should, or they shouldn't, just that we should consider why either of these is a possible interpretation of present copyright law. I can't find anything specific in Title 17 regarding the establishment of lending libraries and how they were permitted under copyright law. :-( For those who want to read it raw. jc From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 13:10:23 2002 Received: from tarsus.cisto.com (tarsus.cisto.com [195.97.240.29]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8C7195FF9 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-ls-8-1-1-dialup-233.freesurf.ch [194.230.230.233]) by tarsus.cisto.com (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01630; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g7JKADB19481; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:10:13 +0200 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:10:13 +0200 Message-Id: <200208192010.g7JKADB19481@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: nolan@celery.tssi.com Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <20020819180116.14005.qmail@celery.tssi.com> (nolan@celery.tssi.com) Subject: List-policies RFC - Let's do it! (was Re: The gmane issue) References: <20020819180116.14005.qmail@celery.tssi.com> X-Archive-Number: 200208/205 X-Sequence-Number: 833 Mike Nolan wrote: > Norbert Bollow wrote: > > I support the idea of creating an RFC about a simple and yet > > sufficiently powerful and machine-parseable format for communicating > > whatever rules the list-owner wants to be applicable to any given > > list. > > That's an excellent idea, I can think of a variety of rules that could > be promulgated that way, not just archiving policies. Let's do it! Agreed, let's do it. Please subscribe to the rfc-discuss list at http://maillist.info/mailman/listinfo/rfc-discuss > > Actually I believe that such a responsibility exists only where > > the list-owners want the situation to be different from the default > > that is implied by copyright law, namely: > > OMIGOD, you still believe in the copyright law? :-) Well, IANAL, and from my layperson's perspective it looks like a total mess, but I think it's part of the realities of the environment in which I'm conducting business. Also, copyright law is what gives the copyleft of the GNU GPL its teeth, and that's a very good application of copyright law IMO. Greetings, Norbert. -- Founder & Steering Committee member of http://gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://norbert.ch List hosting with GNU Mailman on your own domain name http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 13:19:50 2002 Received: from pat.uio.no (pat.uio.no [129.240.130.16]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CA06195B10 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stjorn.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.66.225]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #7) id 17gszK-0002Xb-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:18:58 +0200 Received: from localhost (thomas@localhost) by stjorn.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:18:58 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:18:58 +0200 (MEST) From: Thomas Gramstad Reply-To: Thomas Gramstad To: Russ Allbery Cc: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Contact-Me-Info: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/ X-My-Lists: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lists/ X-Best-Listserver: Majordomo 2 - http://csf.colorado.edu/mj/ X-Post-Objectivism: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/po/articles.html X-Amazons-Ring: http://H.webring.com/hub?ring=amazonsinternati X-Grrl: I love Janice X-For-Media: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/pix/ X-Bli-Med-I-EFN: http://www.efn.no/ X-Boktips: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lister/amasoner-bok.html X-ena: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lister/xena.html X-en-Buddhism: Clap one hand now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/206 X-Sequence-Number: 834 On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, Russ Allbery wrote: > There's one thing I know extremely well. The vast majority of > users *hate* learning a new mail interface. This is why we > still have (very non-technical) users who use mm, despite the > fact that it's a horrible mail reader by modern standards and > can't even understand MIME. They've been using mm since > TOPS-20, and that's what they understand. Hey, don't diss MM! It's largely unusable for new mail today because it hasn't been updated for 10-15 years, but as an interface to (old) large plain text mail archives, it's still a superior interface IMHO, and I still use it a lot for that. Show me another e-mail client that can do "head all sub bach digest from john smith"! And it can understand Mime or at least display it correctly if you pipe it through Metamail... I even considered stripping MM's interface and adding it on top of Mutt or some other newer free client, but there were license issues and the idea probably wouldn't have merited the efforts anyway, but still... Thomas Gramstad thomas@ifi.uio.no From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 13:19:53 2002 Received: from marlborough.cnchost.com (marlborough.concentric.net [207.155.248.14]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3BB195FF9 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (adsl-208-201-244-240.sonic.net [208.201.244.240]) by marlborough.cnchost.com id QAA05838; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:19:00 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20020819131212.00aa91e0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:15:15 -0700 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: JC Dill Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: <6D06E25A-B3AC-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/207 X-Sequence-Number: 835 On 12:46 PM 8/19/02, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > >On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 12:05 PM, Charlie Summers wrote: > >>> Why do you believe those are implied by copyright law? I'm curious >>> what >>> your rationale is. >> >> http://www.copyright.gov/faq.html#q38 >> >> http://www.copyright.gov/faq.html#q47 >> >> http://www.copyright.gov/faq.html#q60 > >Thanks. > >> As always, contact an attorney who speaializes in copyright law for >> specific advice > >Oh, I have. A few times. If only it were this simple. (but since I'm >not an attorney, I'll leave it at that). BTW, I just found this, which might shed some light on the issue: Copyright and marketing There is some historical evidence that producers of intellectual property may desire laws that are too restrictive for their own good. For example, English publishers were opposed to the spread of libraries in the 1800s: ``...when circulating libraries were first opened, the booksellers were much alarmed; and their rapid increase added to their fears, and led them to think that the sale of books would be much diminished by such libraries.'' (Knight (1854)) However, in the long run the spread of these libraries was very beneficial to the publishing industry: But experience has proved that the sale of books, so far from being diminished by [the circulating libraries], has been greatly promoted; and from these repositories many thousand of families have been cheaply supplied with books, by which the taste of reading has become more general, and thousand of books are purchased each year by such as have first borrowed them at those libraries, and after reading, approving of them, have become purchasers. (Knight (1854)) Two hundred years later, the same story was played out with Hollywood and video rental stores. (Lardner (1987)) Hollywood tried a variety of licensing schemes to prevent video rental stores from purchasing tapes and then renting them to the general public. These schemes all failed, and the failure ended up much to the benefit of the movie industry. Nowadays, Hollywood makes 3 times much money from home video as from traditional distribution. In 1996, consumers spent $9.2 billion on rental and $7.3 billion on purchase of videos. (Varian and Roehl (1996)) So one could argue that the spread of mailing list mirrors and archives may not diminish the original source's value. jc From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 13:27:42 2002 Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [207.192.128.31]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C89195AD4 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g7JKQnJU001066; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:26:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Beartooth Reply-To: KHLsv To: JC Dill Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020819123912.038caaf0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/208 X-Sequence-Number: 836 On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, JC Dill wrote: > > One could argue that subscribing and mirroring a mailing list on > the Internet is akin to the paper book parallel of buying a > single copy of a book then putting it in a lending library. In > both cases, the "owner" provided the item to subsequently be > shared (via the mailing list subscription or the book sale). > Both purposes serve to make the information available to a wider > group of people. Lending libraries are permitted by copyright > law, even though many book publishers were against the idea when > libraries first became popular. Why should mailing list mirrors > and archives be treated differently? > > Note: I'm NOT saying they should, or they shouldn't, just that > we should consider why either of these is a possible > interpretation of present copyright law. I can't find anything > specific in Title 17 regarding the establishment of lending > libraries and how they were permitted under copyright law. :-( > > For those who > want to read it raw. It happens that I was a copyright examiner once upon a time. The law has changed -- twice, I think -- since then, and I've never been a lawyer; but the law even in my time was sixty pages of fine print, *plus* all the case law (what you cite is just the statute, I believe), plus regulations, plus legislative history, etc., etc., ad nauseam. There are whole law firms specializing in copyright law, plus the political ferment over the latest abomination. It would be prudent to assume as little as possible about what any particular court might or might not do in any particular case. And my guess, which is no better than yours, is that the intense disagreement between the big copyright holders (who have money) and their opposition on the Net (which may have votes) could lead almost anywhere. Mark Twain said it best : no man's life or property is safe while the Congress is in session. -- Beartooth , Linuxer's apprentice w/RH 7.2; pine 4.43 on ISP's SunOS 5.8; Opera 6.02, Galeon 1.2.5, & Mozilla 1.0 From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 13:30:05 2002 Received: from tarsus.cisto.com (tarsus.cisto.com [195.97.240.29]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE1019609A for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-ls-9-4-1-dialup-163.freesurf.ch [194.230.243.163]) by tarsus.cisto.com (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01921; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g7JKTtR19689; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:29:55 +0200 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:29:55 +0200 Message-Id: <200208192029.g7JKTtR19689@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: inet-list@vo.cnchost.com Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <5.0.0.25.2.20020819123912.038caaf0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> (message from JC Dill on Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:02:15 -0700) Subject: Re: The gmane issue References: <94C8EDE0-B39F-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> <200208191738.g7JHc0i18428@quill.local> <5.0.0.25.2.20020819123912.038caaf0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Archive-Number: 200208/209 X-Sequence-Number: 837 JC Dill wrote: > One could argue that subscribing and mirroring a mailing list on the > Internet is akin to the paper book parallel of buying a single copy of a > book then putting it in a lending library. In both cases, the "owner" > provided the item to subsequently be shared (via the mailing list > subscription or the book sale). Both purposes serve to make the > information available to a wider group of people. Lending libraries are > permitted by copyright law, even though many book publishers were against > the idea when libraries first became popular. Why should mailing list > mirrors and archives be treated differently? Mailing list mirrors and public archives involve creating additional copies of copyrighted materials; that is not the case with a lending library. > I can't find anything specific in Title 17 regarding the > establishment of lending libraries and how they were permitted under > copyright law. :-( Section 109 is specifically about that. http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/109.html Greetings, Norbert. -- Founder & Steering Committee member of http://gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://norbert.ch List hosting with GNU Mailman on your own domain name http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 13:32:05 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (oldradio.net [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9109F1960E7 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (lof@chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA12597; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:30:11 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020819123912.038caaf0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> References: <94C8EDE0-B39F-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> <200208191738.g7JHc0i18428@quill.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:22:56 -0400 To: JC Dill , List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: Charlie Summers Subject: Copywrong (Was: Re: The gmane issue) X-Archive-Number: 200208/210 X-Sequence-Number: 838 At 4:02 PM -0400 8/19/02, JC Dill is rumored to have typed: > One could argue that subscribing and mirroring a mailing list on the > Internet is akin to the paper book parallel of buying a single copy of a > book then putting it in a lending library. I doubt any court would accept that argument if you took a _copy_ from the rightsholder (note you would be serving a _seperate_ copy on a seperate server; a better analogy would be photocopying the paperback and giving away copies to anyone who asked) without express permission. That's like making the argument that it's ok to copy a DVD (pick whichever one is your favorite at the moment) and posting it onto a website without the permission of the copyrightholder, since you're only "loaning" it. But feel free to test the boundaries of the law, if you'd like. I'd suggest that a reasonable case could be made that Google's caching of copyrighted web pages without express permission is likely illegal since the passage of the DMCA. (Would be fun sitting on the sidelines seeing a large corporation file suit; I'm not saying the case would be _successful,_ mind you, but would be a legitimate argument for the judiciary to decide. And a hoot for the spectators.) This is why it's _always_ better to assume a creation is protected under copyright than it is to assume it isn't, or that a given purpose for the copy qualifies as, "fair use." The issues are such that only lawyers with years of experience in this area are even qualified to give an opinion, and without specific case law to back them up, even they're only guessing. Charlie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 13:33:46 2002 Received: from celery.tssi.com (celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 38430196108 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15898 invoked by uid 1000); 19 Aug 2002 20:32:54 -0000 Message-ID: <20020819203254.15897.qmail@celery.tssi.com> From: nolan@celery.tssi.com Subject: Re: The gmane issue (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:32:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/211 X-Sequence-Number: 839 > One could argue that subscribing and mirroring a mailing list on the > Internet is akin to the paper book parallel of buying a single copy of a > book then putting it in a lending library. In both cases, the "owner" > provided the item to subsequently be shared (via the mailing list > subscription or the book sale). Both purposes serve to make the > information available to a wider group of people. Lending libraries are > permitted by copyright law, even though many book publishers were against > the idea when libraries first became popular. Why should mailing list > mirrors and archives be treated differently? Lending libraries are permitted under the use of a physical (or licensed) copy of a book. However, that does not grant the owner of the physical copy permission to indiscriminantly make hundreds of copies or to permit others to make hundreds of copies. Placing a list archive on the net does exactly that, so the choice of whether to archive and the approval of any archive site is within the purview of the copyright holder. In my case, several years ago I consulted an intellectual property attorney on another matter involving my lists. Based upon that advice, I now place an "X-Compilation-Copyright" header on all posts that go through my lists and the list instructions advise posters of my assertion of that compilation copyright, which I have been advised gives me control over archiving rights. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 13:34:18 2002 Received: from rogersmithsoftware.com (www.rogersmithsoftware.com [64.49.222.212]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E8CBD196313 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 31715 invoked from network); 19 Aug 2002 20:33:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO FLOL01SMITH) (137.100.113.196) by www.rogersmithsoftware.com with SMTP; 19 Aug 2002 20:33:26 -0000 Message-ID: <071701c247c2$d87cf2d0$c4716489@FLOL01SMITH> From: "Roger Smith" To: Subject: The gmane issue Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:56:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Archive-Number: 200208/212 X-Sequence-Number: 840 > > > Actually I believe that such a responsibility exists only where > > > the list-owners want the situation to be different from the default > > > that is implied by copyright law, namely: > > > > > > * Without explicit permission, no-one is allowed to mirror the list, > > > or create public archives. > > > > > > * Just telling people about the existence of the list (by mentioning > > > it in a directory of lists) is ok even without explicit permission. > > > > Why do you believe those are implied by copyright law? I'm curious what > > your rationale is. "Compilations and abridgments may also be copyrightable if they contain new work of authorship. When the collecting of the preexisting material that makes up the compilation is a purely mechanical task with no element of editorial selection, or when only a few minor deletions constitute an abridgment, copyright protection for the compilation or abridgment as a new version is not available." [http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf] IANAL so I won't even guess how that applies to mailing lists. But I would hope that a moderated mailing list would be protected by copyright because it sure doesn't seem to me that it is a "purely mechanical task" to moderate and manage my lists. -- Roger http://www.jadebox.com/arrow/ Arrow Mailing List Server for Windows From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 13:38:56 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A9BB196125 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vg0601f-dhcp150.apple.com (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7JKbDi05661; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:37:17 -0700 Subject: Re: The gmane issue Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com To: JC Dill From: Chuq Von Rospach In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020819123912.038caaf0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Message-Id: <73A99067-B3B3-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) X-Archive-Number: 200208/213 X-Sequence-Number: 841 On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 01:02 PM, JC Dill wrote: > One could argue that subscribing and mirroring a mailing list on the > Internet is akin to the paper book parallel of buying a single copy of > a book then putting it in a lending library. That's definitely a legitimate argument. A second argument is because public archiving is generally acceptable (just look around) without any real controversy, that an assumption that it's okay unless you say otherwise is a reasonable one. (whether that should be the default, acceptable assumption or not is irrelevant. On the net, it is) A third argument is that none of this has been run through court or cleared up via legislation and the precedents simply don't exist, so assuming anything is a basis for disaster if you assume wrong. That's especially true if you base your assumptions on carefully chosen answers in a copyright FAQ that may or may not be useful in context to the larger, complex issue. I'm not a copyright lawyer by any means, but I've had to deal with them and have dealt with these issues going back to the 80's here online. it's a massive tar-baby, and it won't get any better any time soon. Here's MY strategy on how I manage this stuff. you can assume from this that it's how I view reality based on my research (but note for the record I'm not recommending you do it this way. I'm saying this is how I do things, or in some cases, how I probably should do things but don't). First, there's a defacto-default that it's okay to archive unless you say no. Just look at how gmane set things up. Or google. or name your favorite archivers. If you put it on a public site without putting restrictions on it, you're saying "here. have fun". to think otherwise is to head down the logic of people like the anti-deep-linkers. If I put a box of candy on the front porch, it's stupid to think people will knock and ask if they can have a piece first. If you want them to ask first, put up a sign, or keep the box with you in the house and make them knock to ask for it. Undoubtably, the original author owns the copyright on the message he sends to a list. What happens after that gets very muddy, very fast. By sending it to the list, unless the list has a known, regulated, restricted population, he's made an overt act of distributing that message to an uncontrolled audience. That strongly limits his ability to later say "you can't have this", since he made no attempt to control access to it at time of publication/distribution. As the list owner, the rights are somewhat tenuous. You don't own that message, the author does. You can claim compilation-copyright on the collection of messages as a group (similar to an anthology of stories published together), and that goes back to Brad Templeton and rec.humor.funny many years ago. But at the same time, I know lawyers who feel that'll have limited power if it ever goes to court. Some would love to try that case, some get hives at the thought. (in fact, I've had that discussion within the last six months over a, well, situation that shall remain undescribed, and the resolution was that it wasn't worth pursuing and it wasn't a high chance of success, and it definitely wasn't worth the money or energy). Given all that, what IS BLOODY IMPORTANT is to make your requirements known. I've actually considered adding x-headers to every message with a copyright blurb -- but in all honesty, the poster owns that message, not me, and that creates an interesting conundrum: can I claim a compilation copyright on an individual message? Can I claim a compilation copyright on the collection of messages by placing that copyright on someone else's material sent individually? damn tar-baby again. So the real answer is "we dunno. you can quote copyright law all day, and there are no precedents to back it up". So anything can happen. If you feel not allowing archives and protecting your archives from use without approval is important, you better make your wishes very clear and explicit. And even then, who knows? Until there's precedents, who knows what might be decided. But if you just leave it there, open and waiting like a case of kit-kat's on the front porch, don't complain is someone walks by and grabs the whole box. Because the defacto-default is "here. Have fun", and that's not changing. The further your preferences are from that, the more you have to overtly and actively state and protect those preferences. and whether you think that default is appropriate or not is irrelevant. Changing that default's an entirely different argument..... Just My Opinion.... chuq (who actually finds lawyers useful and interesting.....) -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 14:04:05 2002 Received: from tonnant.cnchost.com (tonnant.concentric.net [207.155.248.72]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA10E195F26 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (adsl-208-201-244-240.sonic.net [208.201.244.240]) by tonnant.cnchost.com id RAA26672; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:03:15 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20020819135356.03973e10@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:04:55 -0700 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: JC Dill Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: <200208192029.g7JKTtR19689@quill.local> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020819123912.038caaf0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <94C8EDE0-B39F-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> <200208191738.g7JHc0i18428@quill.local> <5.0.0.25.2.20020819123912.038caaf0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/214 X-Sequence-Number: 842 On 01:29 PM 8/19/02, Norbert Bollow wrote: >JC Dill wrote: > >> One could argue that subscribing and mirroring a mailing list on the >> Internet is akin to the paper book parallel of buying a single copy of a >> book then putting it in a lending library. In both cases, the "owner" >> provided the item to subsequently be shared (via the mailing list >> subscription or the book sale). Both purposes serve to make the >> information available to a wider group of people. Lending libraries are >> permitted by copyright law, even though many book publishers were against >> the idea when libraries first became popular. Why should mailing list >> mirrors and archives be treated differently? > >Mailing list mirrors and public archives involve creating additional >copies of copyrighted materials; that is not the case with a lending >library. > >> I can't find anything specific in Title 17 regarding the >> establishment of lending libraries and how they were permitted under >> copyright law. :-( > >Section 109 is specifically about that. Section 108 has provisions for making up to three whole copies in specific cases. Section 108 addresses copyright and copying issues for books and phonorecord items but doesn't address electronic copies of something that doesn't exist at all in "hard copy". Who knows how it will be interpreted regarding content that has been published *solely* on the Internet. jc From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 14:41:03 2002 Received: from tarsus.cisto.com (tarsus.cisto.com [195.97.240.29]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA52195F2A for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-mu-17-1-dialup-119.freesurf.ch [194.230.28.119]) by tarsus.cisto.com (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA02951; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g7JLeeN20107; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:40:40 +0200 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:40:40 +0200 Message-Id: <200208192140.g7JLeeN20107@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: chuqui@plaidworks.com Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <6D06E25A-B3AC-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> (message from Chuq Von Rospach on Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:46:59 -0700) Subject: Re: The gmane issue References: <6D06E25A-B3AC-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> X-Archive-Number: 200208/215 X-Sequence-Number: 843 Chuq Von Rospach wrote, in response to a posting from me: >>> Why do you believe those are implied by copyright law? I'm curious >>> what your rationale is. Here's my line of thinking... (1) Every single message is copyrighted material, except if it's not explicitly put in the public domain. (2) In addition, I believe that the list-owner owns a compilation copyright on the sequence of messages seen as a whole. (That is perhaps not entirely clear, so I wouldn't be too surprised if not all courts of law will agree with this point, or if they might grant it only for lists which are actively moderated.) (3) Publishing archives on the internet involves making copies and distributing them. (4) I believe that by posting to a mailing list, people are implicitly giving the list-owner the right to distribute copies of their messages to all subscribers. (5) I believe that in situations when it is made clear from the list-information page that the list-owner has set things up to create web-based archives, the people who post to the list are also implicitly giving the list-owner the right to distribute copies of their messages in this manner. (This argument does not apply to unauthorized third-party archives.) (6) It follows from (5) that the list-owner has at least non-exclusive rights to the entire archives. I think that point (2) about compilation copyright gives the list-owner even exclusive rights to publishing the archives in their entirety. If that should not be the case, then the list-owner can still gain such exclusive rights by buying from some of the most active contributors the copyright of their contributions, so that then the list-owner actually owns the copyright to significant parts of the archives. (7) Owning the exclusive right to publishing the archives in their entirety has commercial value, because it is possible to place advertisements on the archive pages. (8) This commercial value is drastically reduced when there are multiple competing web-based archives of the same list. For this reason, the "fair use" exception of copyright law does not apply to unauthorized complete archives of the list. (It may still apply to partial archives, e.g. I think that when someone just publishes archives of the threads in which he or she was personally involved may, that could, depending on circumstances, actually be "fair use".) BTW this chain of arguments clearly breaks down for lists which have no official archives; I wouldn't even dare speculate what the legal situation of unauthorized archives of such lists might be. > > As always, contact an attorney who speaializes in copyright law for > > specific advice > > Oh, I have. A few times. If only it were this simple. (but since I'm > not an attorney, I'll leave it at that). Also IANAL, so if/when someone actually gets a lawyer to check if my arguments above are correct, I'll appreciate hearing about the results. :-) Greetings, Norbert. -- Founder & Steering Committee member of http://gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://norbert.ch List hosting with GNU Mailman on your own domain name http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 14:48:56 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022E0195F0D for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vg0601f-dhcp150.apple.com (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7JLlUi12801; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:47:34 -0700 Subject: Re: Copywrong (Was: Re: The gmane issue) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Cc: JC Dill , List-Managers@greatcircle.com To: Charlie Summers From: Chuq Von Rospach In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <455E5000-B3BD-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) X-Archive-Number: 200208/216 X-Sequence-Number: 844 > That's like making > the argument that it's ok to copy a DVD (pick whichever one is your > favorite > at the moment) and posting it onto a website without the permission of > the > copyrightholder, since you're only "loaning" it. Not really, because in this case, it's something already up on the internet in electronic form and distributed electronically -- and in most cases already ON a web site and already available without restriction. So one could argue in return that it's simply a public service, that they're mirroring a web site to help increase availability. Mirroring is a widely accepted practice; the GNU folks do it heavily, in fact. And if you didn't say "don't copy my stuff", they could make a good argument that you thought it was okay, since you didn't put any restrictions on it and didn't document a restrictive clause on usage. Either side could win that fight, actually. Depends on many factors. It's not like copying a DVD at all. It's like grabbing a copy of the Lord of the Rings Preview and putting it on your web site. Very different beasts. One's already on the net, the only question is who has the permission to host it. > But feel free to test the boundaries of the law, if you'd like. I'd > suggest that a reasonable case could be made that Google's caching of > copyrighted web pages without express permission is likely illegal > since the > passage of the DMCA. If they're on the web, not password protected and there's no overt copyright notice on them? Doubtful as hell. If there is a copyright notice? They'll happily remove them if they didn't catch it themselves. > This is why it's _always_ better to assume a creation is protected > under > copyright than it is to assume it isn't, or that a given purpose for > the copy > qualifies as, "fair use." The key word in all these arguments is "assume". No matter which side you're on, if you assume a given usage is okay, or you assume others will only use something a certain way, bad things will happen. So don't assume. Make your wishes explicit on material you publish, so there's no assumption necessary. Then you only have to worry about those that don't pay attention, or feel your restrictions aren't legal. And down those paths lie lawyers anyway.... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Very funny, Scotty. Now beam my clothes down here, will you? From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 14:52:52 2002 Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [207.192.128.31]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823E9195F65 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g7JLq0JU012213; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:52:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Beartooth Reply-To: KHLsv To: Roger Smith Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: <071701c247c2$d87cf2d0$c4716489@FLOL01SMITH> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/217 X-Sequence-Number: 845 On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, Roger Smith wrote: > > "Compilations and abridgments may also be copyrightable if they > contain new work of authorship. When the collecting of the > preexisting material that makes up the compilation is a purely > mechanical task with no element of editorial selection, or when > only a few minor deletions constitute an abridgment, copyright > protection for the compilation or abridgment as a new version is > not available." [http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf] > > IANAL so I won't even guess how that applies to mailing lists. > But I would hope that a moderated mailing list would be protected > by copyright because it sure doesn't seem to me that it is a > "purely mechanical task" to moderate and manage my lists. This is one of the places where the law may have changed much since I knew anything -- and is apt to go on changing, because some of those affected support expensive lobbyists. It affects things like telephone directories, which involve big bucks. There may be stuff to find under "sweat equity" or "sweat of the brow" ... From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 15:05:35 2002 Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C08E195F2A for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vg0601f-dhcp150.apple.com (A17-216-34-150.apple.com [17.216.34.150]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7JM3Ri13826; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:03:31 -0700 Subject: Re: The gmane issue Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com To: JC Dill From: Chuq Von Rospach In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020819135356.03973e10@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Message-Id: <7FA98FE4-B3BF-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) X-Archive-Number: 200208/218 X-Sequence-Number: 846 On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 02:04 PM, JC Dill wrote: > >Mailing list mirrors and public archives involve creating additional > >copies of copyrighted materials; that is not the case with a lending > >library. does it? what's the legal definition of "copy" as it pertains to mailing list archives (hint: there's no legal precedent). > Section 108 has provisions for making up to three whole copies in > specific cases. Section 108 addresses copyright and copying issues > for books and phonorecord items but doesn't address electronic copies > of something that doesn't exist at all in "hard copy". Who knows how > it will be interpreted regarding content that has been published > *solely* on the Internet. > It's like the Bible to Christians, or any other religious document. People tend to only quote those pieces that reinforce what they want the document to say, and not the pieces that contradict it.... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ He doesn't have ulcers, but he's a carrier. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 15:10:44 2002 Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.176.124.156]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 978FB195F0D for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toshiba.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6605F350EC for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:09:50 -0400 (EDT) X-America-Has-Resolve: yes X-Message-Flag: Microsoft Outlook is insecure. Upgrade your Mail Program Now! Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819160244.1386bfa0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:44:53 -0400 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: <94C8EDE0-B39F-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> References: <200208191738.g7JHc0i18428@quill.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-399199C; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/219 X-Sequence-Number: 847 At 11:15 AM 2002-08-19 -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 10:38 AM, Norbert Bollow wrote: >>Actually I believe that such a responsibility exists only where >>the list-owners want the situation to be different from the default >>that is implied by copyright law, namely: >> >>* Without explicit permission, no-one is allowed to mirror the list, >> or create public archives. 1. There are two issues here. One is the individual poster's implied permission. It is my belief that, barring a statement that changes expectations, that the original posted has not implied that their posting can be copied to archives other than the ones that are associated with the list mechanics. 2. The collection copyright. Say I am an editor of a science fiction anthology. I solicit authors, decide what stories will be in the anthology. All of these stories have been published elsewhere. I write not one word, I simply publish the stories in a hardbound book. Joe's publication services contacts the same authors, and buys reprint rights for the same stories (now even cheaper since this is not second, but third publishing), and publishes a paperback. I sue them: They have violated my collection copyright. The point is that I have exerted effort. I make no bones about it - I control the content of my lists, in some cases after the fact, but in other cases, I am automatically editing mail that is submitted. But even if I didn't, I believe that as list owner, simply exerting the effort of naming a list, writing or not writing a statement of purpose, and enforcing or not enforcing a set if rules gives me a collection copyright on the collection of messages. Someone who establishes an external archive is violating my collection copyright, as well as violating the copyrights of the individual authors. >>* Just telling people about the existence of the list (by mentioning >> it in a directory of lists) is ok even without explicit permission. The fact of the existence of the list is just that, a fact, and need not copy any actual text from the list. This is implied by fair use. Someone could even "review" the list and excerpt or summarize the rules, give brief samples of typical postings for review purposes, and write their impressions of the list. I believe that those sorts of things are all well established fair use. >Why do you believe those are implied by copyright law? I'm curious what >your rationale is. I'm not sure what other rationale that there is. The work involved in creating a collection can be small or large. As long as the collection is not a simple table of facts organized in a simple and obvious way, like a phone book, it is protected. -- We will fight for bovine freedom, And hold our large heads high. We will run free, with the buffalo or die! Cows with Guns. - Dana Lyons, Cows With Guns Nick Simicich mailto:njs@scifi.squawk.com http://scifi.squawk.com/njs.html -- Stop by and Light Up The World! From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 15:14:17 2002 Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [207.192.128.31]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376CC195FAF for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g7JMDPJU015097; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:13:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Beartooth Reply-To: KHLsv To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: JC Dill , Subject: More tar for the baby (was Re: The gmane issue) In-Reply-To: <73A99067-B3B3-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/220 X-Sequence-Number: 848 On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: (lots of good stuff snipped) > A second argument is because public archiving is generally > acceptable (just look around) without any real controversy, that > an assumption that it's okay unless you say otherwise is a > reasonable one. (whether that should be the default, acceptable > assumption or not is irrelevant. On the net, it is) All kinds of business practices, which were SOP among the dotcoms, apparently, are now causing indictments. So even that may not be safe. > I'm not a copyright lawyer by any means,... it's a massive > tar-baby, and it won't get any better any time soon. Me neither, nor want to be ; but that's for sure. > Undoubtably, the original author owns the copyright on the > message he sends to a list. What happens after that gets very > muddy, very fast.... (snip) > > As the list owner, the rights are somewhat tenuous. You don't own that > message, the author does. You can claim compilation-copyright on the > collection of messages as a group (similar to an anthology of stories > published together), One more complication: you could put in a line, like the ones on things submitted to contests, saying "All submissions become property of the listowner" or words to that effect; at least one list seems to (haven't checked lately; but I know the listowner claims the rights). > So the real answer is "we dunno. you can quote copyright law all > day, and there are no precedents to back it up". So anything can > happen. If you feel not allowing archives and protecting your > archives from use without approval is important, you better make > your wishes very clear and explicit. And even then, who knows? > Until there's precedents, who knows what might be decided. I still concur right down the line. There just ain't no answers -- may not be in our time. The Congress doesn't move fast enough to keep up with technology, on this any more than on spam or a lot of other things. -- Beartooth , Linuxer's apprentice w/RH 7.2; pine 4.43 on ISP's SunOS 5.8; Opera 6.02, Galeon 1.2.5, & Mozilla 1.0 From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 16:24:34 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (oldradio.net [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE915195B57 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (lof@chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27267; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:23:25 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Envelope-To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <455E5000-B3BD-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:11:05 -0400 To: Chuq Von Rospach From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: Copywrong (Was: Re: The gmane issue) Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com X-Archive-Number: 200208/221 X-Sequence-Number: 849 At 5:47 PM -0400 8/19/02, Chuq Von Rospach is rumored to have typed: > So don't assume. Make your wishes explicit on material you publish, so > there's no assumption necessary. Why are you so intent on placing the responsibility on the publisher and not the archiver? It is the ARCHIVER who shouldn't assume, and should simply ask for and receive permission BEFORE archiving the list. It takes little time, and places the archive in a completely legal position - what exactly is it about asking permission that you find so reprehensible? Charlie (who is quit with this now) From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 17:19:08 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 706E8195FA8 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vg0601f-dhcp150.apple.com (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7K0HrV08654; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:17:53 -0700 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:17:47 -0700 Subject: Re: Copywrong (Was: Re: The gmane issue) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com To: Charlie Summers From: Chuq Von Rospach In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <41A707B9-B3D2-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) X-Archive-Number: 200208/222 X-Sequence-Number: 850 On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 04:11 PM, Charlie Summers wrote: > Why are you so intent on placing the responsibility on the > publisher and > not the archiver? because that's where I think it belongs? I lock my door when I leave the house, too. I don't depend on passerbys not going in and checking out my bathrooom.... Why are you so intent on pretending the owner of content has no responsibility to make their wishes for that content known? -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Very funny, Scotty. Now beam my clothes down here, will you? From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 18:38:51 2002 Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.176.124.156]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F3F195B3D for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toshiba.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D644C351E3 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:37:57 -0400 (EDT) X-America-Has-Resolve: yes X-Message-Flag: Microsoft Outlook is insecure. Upgrade your Mail Program Now! Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819200112.1565c200@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:35:34 -0400 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: <73A99067-B3B3-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020819123912.038caaf0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-399199C; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/223 X-Sequence-Number: 851 At 01:37 PM 2002-08-19 -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >A second argument is because public archiving is generally acceptable >(just look around) without any real controversy, that an assumption that >it's okay unless you say otherwise is a reasonable one. (whether that >should be the default, acceptable assumption or not is irrelevant. On the >net, it is) Um, here I have to disagree. I do not think that public archiving is OK. Lots of lists that I know of and so forth take the position that public archiving is not OK. The fact that many public archives exist and many allow it does not make it OK for everyone. >A third argument is that none of this has been run through court or >cleared up via legislation and the precedents simply don't exist, so >assuming anything is a basis for disaster if you assume wrong. Come on. There is property, and there is theft. In this case, you sound something like someone who says, "We have established that stealing right handed frammitzs is a crime, but this is a left handed one." The cases on the web about deep linking and framing are more about, "If I take a picture of your car, do I have to compensate you," not "If I take your car do I have to compensate you". > That's especially true if you base your assumptions on carefully chosen > answers in a copyright FAQ that may or may not be useful in context to > the larger, complex issue. > >I'm not a copyright lawyer by any means, but I've had to deal with them >and have dealt with these issues going back to the 80's here online. it's >a massive tar-baby, and it won't get any better any time soon. > >Here's MY strategy on how I manage this stuff. you can assume from this >that it's how I view reality based on my research (but note for the record >I'm not recommending you do it this way. I'm saying this is how I do >things, or in some cases, how I probably should do things but don't). > >First, there's a defacto-default that it's okay to archive unless you say >no. Just look at how gmane set things up. Or google. or name your favorite >to think otherwise is to head down the logic of people like the >anti-deep-linkers. Sorry, the scum at gmane are thieves. Call them thieves and stand up for what is right, don't excuse their scumbag behavior because someone (apparently this comes down to an individual) who was not moral enough to do the right thing decided that it was simpler to steal than to ask. Yes, they are stealing lists and archiving them. Because they did it does not make it right, nor will the next person do it, perhaps, if there is an outcry. But as long as people excuse the theft as "possible therefore moral" then the next person who is making this same decision will come to the same conclusion. Easier to steal than ask. >If I put a box of candy on the front porch, it's stupid to think people >will knock and ask if they can have a piece first. If you want them to ask >first, put up a sign, or keep the box with you in the house and make them >knock to ask for it. Um, crapola. If I park my car on the street, someone might take it, they are a thief. So is the person who comes into my yard and picks a bushel of fruit off my tree without asking. The fact that it can be done does not make me a fool for growing a tree or parking my car on the street. I get packages dropped on my doorstep by UPS every week. Every one of them is more valuable than candy. Not one in many years has been stolen. I've only had mail stolen once in 30 years and that was by a child who had no morals. And it is certainly possible to steal mail --- it sits in one's mailbox, and everyplace I've lived, there are no locks on one's mailbox. But the point is that, small or large, taking someone else's property is theft. Even if it turns out that you can. >Undoubtably, the original author owns the copyright on the message he >sends to a list. What happens after that gets very muddy, very fast. By >sending it to the list, unless the list has a known, regulated, restricted >population, he's made an overt act of distributing that message to an >uncontrolled audience. Crapola. Maybe you have confused mailing lists with Usenet. I hope no one else has. I personally believe that the audience of mailing lists is controlled, and that the user loses no more rights to their work than they would if they, for example, sent the work to a APA that did the copying for you and maintained a variable copy count. The people who get the copy of the APA can keep it or dispose of it. The collator can make copied to satisfy the copy count. If someone who gets a copy decides to make more copies and redistribute, unless the APA rules say they can. then, strictly, they are not allowed to. Can they spontaneously copy an article and send it to someone else? Possibly fair use. Can they make hundreds of copies and sell them? Strictly, no. What is the difference between an APA and a mailing list? Well, in an APA, we know that there are physical pieces of paper. With a mailing list, we do not know about specific pieces of paper, there are electrons. But there is still the concept of a copy, and there is still a point where the action changes from "disposing of one's copy" to "duplication", and whereas that line may be more or less overt, when one talks about a large scale archive, that is clearly over the line. >That strongly limits his ability to later say "you can't have this", since >he made no attempt to control access to it at time of publication/distribution. Sure they have - they sent it to a mailing list, not to Usenet. The mailing list has a known distribution. And in my case, a policy about known archive points under a central control. >As the list owner, the rights are somewhat tenuous. You don't own that >message, the author does. You can claim compilation-copyright on the >collection of messages as a group (similar to an anthology of stories >published together), and that goes back to Brad Templeton and >rec.humor.funny many years ago. But at the same time, I know lawyers who >feel that'll have limited power if it ever goes to court. Some would love >to try that case, some get hives at the thought. (in fact, I've had that >discussion within the last six months over a, well, situation that shall >remain undescribed, and the resolution was that it wasn't worth pursuing >and it wasn't a high chance of success, and it definitely wasn't worth the >money or energy). > >Given all that, what IS BLOODY IMPORTANT is to make your requirements >known. I've actually considered adding x-headers to every message with a >copyright blurb -- but in all honesty, the poster owns that message, not >me, and that creates an interesting conundrum: can I claim a compilation >copyright on an individual message? Can I claim a compilation copyright on >the collection of messages by placing that copyright on someone else's >material sent individually? damn tar-baby again. I'm becoming convinced that I may have to overtly assert my compilation copyright through notice. But only to protect myself against thieves and immoral people. >So the real answer is "we dunno. you can quote copyright law all day, and >there are no precedents to back it up". So anything can happen. If you >feel not allowing archives and protecting your archives from use without >approval is important, you better make your wishes very clear and >explicit. And even then, who knows? Until there's precedents, who knows >what might be decided. > >But if you just leave it there, open and waiting like a case of kit-kat's >on the front porch, don't complain is someone walks by and grabs the whole >box. Because the defacto-default is "here. Have fun", and that's not >changing. The further your preferences are from that, the more you have to >overtly and actively state and protect those preferences. and whether you >think that default is appropriate or not is irrelevant. Changing that >default's an entirely different argument..... The fact that the children have been shoplifting for years may mean that for loss control purposes, the storekeeper should watch every kid that comes into the store like a hawk. It does not mean that the behavior of the shoplifters is moral, or that it should be justified because "everyone does it". Nor is theft the defacto default that a moral person will work to. If it in necessary to write an RFC, it should explicitly say, "By the way, it is not acceptable for you to grab messages and archive them unless you get permission." Change the "theft is acceptable" morality. Put it in writing. -- "Forgive him, for he believes that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature!" -- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950) Nick Simicich - njs@scifi.squawk.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 19:06:09 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83BD1195F4B for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vg0601f-dhcp150.apple.com (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7K24oV10071; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:04:50 -0700 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:04:46 -0700 Subject: Re: The gmane issue Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com To: Nick Simicich From: Chuq Von Rospach In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819200112.1565c200@127.0.0.1> Message-Id: <3397B9C4-B3E1-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) X-Archive-Number: 200208/224 X-Sequence-Number: 852 > I'm becoming convinced that I may have to overtly assert my > compilation copyright through notice. But only to protect myself > against thieves and immoral people. > Hey, we agree on something, Nick. Protect your butt. Whether I'm right or whether you're right is irrelevant here, because until the courts or legislation says so, it's all conjecture. So no matter what you think, my point is actually fairly simple: protect your butt, or don't be surprised to constantly be fighting with people who don't agree with you (or don't care what you think). And since the only way to prove you're right is through the courts, it's better to simply not allow others the opportunity to turn it into an issue in the first place, whatever you feel the intellectual underpinnings are. Me, I believe in locking the door, THEN sitting out on the porch with my friends arguing whether I should HAVE to. Because wehther or not I like it that way, I know what happens when I don't. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 19:40:10 2002 Received: from rodney.cnchost.com (rodney.concentric.net [207.155.252.4]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2D28195BA5 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (adsl-208-201-244-240.sonic.net [208.201.244.240]) by rodney.cnchost.com id WAA08770; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:39:17 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20020819193719.03d92070@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:40:01 -0700 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: JC Dill Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819160244.1386bfa0@127.0.0.1> References: <94C8EDE0-B39F-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> <200208191738.g7JHc0i18428@quill.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/225 X-Sequence-Number: 853 On 02:44 PM 8/19/02, Nick Simicich wrote: >At 11:15 AM 2002-08-19 -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > >>On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 10:38 AM, Norbert Bollow wrote: >>>Actually I believe that such a responsibility exists only where >>>the list-owners want the situation to be different from the default >>>that is implied by copyright law, namely: >>> >>>* Without explicit permission, no-one is allowed to mirror the list, >>> or create public archives. > >1. There are two issues here. One is the individual poster's implied >permission. It is my belief that, barring a statement that changes >expectations, that the original posted has not implied that their posting >can be copied to archives other than the ones that are associated with the >list mechanics. Sure they have. I have a complete archive of list-managers on my hard drive, including your posts. You SENT them to me (via the list), so clearly you gave me permission to have a copy and to keep it. >Someone who establishes an external archive is violating my collection >copyright, as well as violating the copyrights of the individual authors. How is my making my archive available for others to see any different than a library making a magazine subscription available for others to see (read or borrow)? jc From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 20:33:55 2002 Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D26661959E0 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g7K3WtN54974 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:32:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: from tom-9k5kaocfpin (rrw70 [66.108.36.250]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g7K3WsU54904 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:32:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:33:02 -0400 From: Tom Neff To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: The gmane issue Message-ID: <854046.1029799982@tom-9k5kaocfpin> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020819193719.03d92070@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020819193719.03d92070@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) Organization: Grassy Hill Entertainment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanner: scanned by Inflex 1.0.12.3 - http://pldaniels.com/inflex X-Archive-Number: 200208/226 X-Sequence-Number: 854 The gmane issue The gmane issue The gmane issue The gmane issue ... I just want to point out that I subscribed to this list mainly for the Swimsuit issue!... From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 21:04:26 2002 Received: from celery.tssi.com (celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 45E7F195F0B for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21764 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Aug 2002 04:03:34 -0000 Message-ID: <20020820040334.21763.qmail@celery.tssi.com> From: nolan@celery.tssi.com Subject: Re: The gmane issue To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:03:34 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200208/227 X-Sequence-Number: 855 > I just want to point out that I subscribed to this list mainly for the > Swimsuit issue!... Trust me, Tom, you DO NOT want to see pictures of most of us in swimsuits. Especially Chuq. No, Chuq! Put down those wire cutters before you hurt *&^%1*( %connection lost From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 21:13:22 2002 Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.176.124.156]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2A25195F85 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:13:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toshiba.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D452A351E4 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 00:12:29 -0400 (EDT) X-America-Has-Resolve: yes X-Message-Flag: Microsoft Outlook is insecure. Upgrade your Mail Program Now! Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819232550.2376ece0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:37:56 -0400 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: Copywrong (Was: Re: The gmane issue) In-Reply-To: <455E5000-B3BD-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-399199C; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/228 X-Sequence-Number: 856 At 02:47 PM 2002-08-19 -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >If they're on the web, not password protected and there's no overt >copyright notice on them? Doubtful as hell. If there is a copyright >notice? They'll happily remove them if they didn't catch it themselves. Obviously you need to go and talk to that copyright lawyer again. The pages are copyrighted with or without a notice. The notice makes some technical differences as to the amount of damages you can collect or something, as well as putting people no notice as to when the work was created and who claims the copyright. -- "Never knock on Death's door: ring the bell and run away! Death really hates that!" njs@scifi.squawk.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 21:45:09 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9010B195F8D for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vg0601f-dhcp150.apple.com (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7K4hqV12292; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:43:52 -0700 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:43:49 -0700 Subject: Re: Copywrong (Was: Re: The gmane issue) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com To: Nick Simicich From: Chuq Von Rospach In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819232550.2376ece0@127.0.0.1> Message-Id: <6B72ACDE-B3F7-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) X-Archive-Number: 200208/229 X-Sequence-Number: 857 On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 08:37 PM, Nick Simicich wrote: > Obviously you need to go and talk to that copyright lawyer again. The > pages are copyrighted with or without a notice. Never said they weren't. Maybe you ought to go back and see what I've said already. but nevermind. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 21:47:12 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8214019605C for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vg0601f-dhcp150.apple.com (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7K4jgV12326; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:45:42 -0700 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:45:39 -0700 Subject: Re: The gmane issue Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com (List Managers) To: nolan@celery.tssi.com From: Chuq Von Rospach In-Reply-To: <20020820040334.21763.qmail@celery.tssi.com> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) X-Archive-Number: 200208/230 X-Sequence-Number: 858 On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 09:03 PM, nolan@celery.tssi.com wrote: > Trust me, Tom, you DO NOT want to see pictures of most of us in > swimsuits. > Especially Chuq. > Question: Why does my home page, a person with a clearly German surname, show me wearing a kilt? Answer: you do NOT want to see me wearing lederhosen. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 22:57:30 2002 Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.176.124.156]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B7F195ADE for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toshiba.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 966CF3502A for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 01:56:37 -0400 (EDT) X-America-Has-Resolve: yes X-Message-Flag: Microsoft Outlook is insecure. Upgrade your Mail Program Now! Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819234224.23774438@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 01:23:13 -0400 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: Copywrong (Was: Re: The gmane issue) In-Reply-To: <41A707B9-B3D2-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-399199C; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/231 X-Sequence-Number: 859 At 05:17 PM 2002-08-19 -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 04:11 PM, Charlie Summers wrote: > >> Why are you so intent on placing the responsibility on the publisher and >>not the archiver? > >because that's where I think it belongs? In my neighborhood, we put garbage cans on the street for the garbagemen to pick up (the contents, that is). No one steals them. Maybe we lose one from the block every five years, it probably blows away. We don't label the cans because of that. No one locks their pool doors (the standard is that the handles are out of the reach of small children) and no one steals our BBQs or even our gas bottles. If someone did steal a bottle, I still might not start locking my pool door. The value of a screen panel is more than anything that would be likely to be stolen. >I lock my door when I leave the house, too. I don't depend on passerbys >not going in and checking out my bathrooom.... > >Why are you so intent on pretending the owner of content has no >responsibility to make their wishes for that content known? Because even if you left your front door open, the person who comes in to use your toilet is a trespasser, and your wishes are already apparent --- you want to ventilate your house, or you want light or maybe you are trying to add to your mosquito collection. This does not imply that the local teenagers have permission to use it for a rave. The presumption is that it is your property. You do not need to lock your bicycle to make it theft for someone to steal it. You do not need to lock your door to make your wishes known -- that only stops a certain class of thief and would not stop any serious thief. The whole concept that a copyright notice changes anything with regard to ownership is rather doubtful. For you or I to say, "I think it is a good idea to put a label on postings and I am going to put some on mine" is one thing. For someone to propose, as a standard, that you must have a notice or it is a free for all, well, that is an attempt by a small group to make law that is in contradiction to extant law. If anything is formalized, what should be formalized is permission. Doing nothing == no permission. The extant practice is not only rude but arguably illegal. Another point is that there are no where near as many archivers as there were search engines when robots.txt was put forth. There is still time to change the practices of the two or three extant archivers that are of any account ---- perhaps simply a letter asserting that the polite and legal thing to do is to ask is all that it would take. I am going to repeat a point I tried to make earlier. From my point of view, we are having this discussion because the number of active mailing list archivers went from zero->one. Now, we can draw a graph, and put two points on it, and this will definitely form a trend. However, I see no evidence that this number will ever accelerate. That is, I see no evidence that the trend will continue and over some unit time, we will add another one-several archivers. Does anyone know of any projects that are on the horizon which would indicate that this might happen? People have joked about google groups. Does anyone have any evidence that there might be a google groups on the horizon or is that a talking point? Is this much ado about onething? That is, is this really a gmane issue as opposed to a general problem with a plethora of public mailing list archives? I went looking, and with the obvious search string, I found a bunch of local archives for one or five mailing lists, but not a bunch of listings for various mailing list archive services. By the way, Chuq, did you make an assertion that google would not download a page with a copyright notice on it? http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html http://216.239.37.100/search?sourceid=navclient&q=cache:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2Fref%2Fmembercenter%2Fhelp%2Fcopyright.html -- "Forgive him, for he believes that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature!" -- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950) Nick Simicich - njs@scifi.squawk.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 23:10:08 2002 Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5D5195FA9 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vg0601f-dhcp150.apple.com (dsl081-078-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.186]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7K68OV13183; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:08:24 -0700 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:08:21 -0700 Subject: Re: Copywrong (Was: Re: The gmane issue) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com To: Nick Simicich From: Chuq Von Rospach In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819234224.23774438@127.0.0.1> Message-Id: <3AB04549-B403-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) X-Archive-Number: 200208/232 X-Sequence-Number: 860 On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 10:23 PM, Nick Simicich wrote: > The whole concept that a copyright notice changes anything with regard > to ownership is rather doubtful. If I were you, I'd talk to my lawyer about that. But I'm not you, so you'll have to worry about that for yourself. > By the way, Chuq, did you make an assertion that google would not > download a page with a copyright notice on it? > by the way, that's not what I said. Or more correctly, it's a part of what I said taken (IMHO) out of context. wishing things were so doesn't make them so, Nick. Neither does insisting and demanding. You're welcome to your opinion on this. I'll shut up and leave you to it. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The Cliff's Notes Cliff's Notes on Hamlet: And they all died happily ever after From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 19 23:30:20 2002 Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.176.124.156]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16399195B34 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toshiba.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909EA351E2; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:29:28 -0400 (EDT) X-America-Has-Resolve: yes X-Message-Flag: Microsoft Outlook is insecure. Upgrade your Mail Program Now! Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820020348.03a5edd8@parrot-int.squawk.com> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:08:37 -0400 To: list-managers From: Nick Simicich Subject: swbell bouncing mail randomly with addressee unknown... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2DB2553C; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/233 X-Sequence-Number: 861 I have had a couple of bounces recently where valid e-mail addresses in swbell are rejected by >: host sbcmail8.prodigy.net[207.115.63.90] said: 553 5.3.0 > ... Addressee unknown, relay=[208.176.124.156] Origin system on my end does not matter, the systems are coming up with hard errors. Then, when mj2 sends them a probe, the probe is likely to get through. If you get hard bounces from swbell, you might want to ignore them for the next few days until they fix this. -- Do you have 10 years experience? Or one month's experience repeated 120 times? Nick Simicich mailto:njs@scifi.squawk.com http://scifi.squawk.com/njs.html -- Stop by and Light Up The World! From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 20 07:39:28 2002 Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [207.192.128.31]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9F5D1959E0 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g7KEbpJU000166; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:37:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Beartooth Reply-To: KHLsv To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Nick Simicich , Subject: Re: Copywrong (Was: Re: The gmane issue) In-Reply-To: <3AB04549-B403-11D6-8294-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/234 X-Sequence-Number: 862 There is a discussion of copyright notices at http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html -- Beartooth the Stubborn , double retiree, linux hatchling w/ RH 7.2; ssh'd (DSL) to pine 4.43 on ISP's SunOS 5.8; Opera 6.02, Pan 0.11.2, Galeon 1.2.5, & Mozilla 1.0 Neo-Redneck, Weird by Nature -- and with Gusto! From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 20 08:20:47 2002 Received: from tarsus.cisto.com (tarsus.cisto.com [195.97.240.29]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3810F195AAC for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-zh-22-2-dialup-222.freesurf.ch [194.230.173.222]) by tarsus.cisto.com (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18207 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:24:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g7KFKTV24061; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:20:29 +0200 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:20:29 +0200 Message-Id: <200208201520.g7KFKTV24061@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: A simpler idea for machine-readable list-policies specification X-Archive-Number: 200208/235 X-Sequence-Number: 863 After some more thought, I now propose the following: The machine-readable list-policies specification consists of one or more lines of text, which each consists of three parts: a) one of the field-names "List-ArchivePolicy:", "List-MirrorPolicy:", "List-RobotPolicy:", "List-CachingPolicy:", "List-GatewayPolicy:" b) an integer number in the range of zero to three c) a comment which explains the policy for humans Each of the field-names SHOULD occur only once. The meaning of the integer values is as follows: 0 - States the policy that the activity is completely disallowed to third parties, and that no exception will be made. 1 - States the policy that the activity is generally disallowed to third parties, but interested parties are invited to request permission, and such requests will be considered on a case-by-case basis. 2 - States the policy that the activity is generally allowed under the condition that the first thing that is done with all postings is to remove any and all email addresses first, as a spam-prevention measure. 3 - States the policy that the activity is generally allowed, without any requirements for removing email addresses. The meaning of the field-names is as follows: List-ArchivePolicy: - refers to mailing list archives which are published in some way, e.g. via the internet. (Regardless of the List-ArchivePolicy: value, subscribers MAY always create archives for their own personal use.) List-MirrorPolicy: - refers to making the content of the list available through some other subscription-based channel, like e.g. a newsfeed or another mailing list. List-CachingPolicy: - refers to making recent content of the list available for a limited time of a month or less. List-GatewayPolicy: - refers to submitting postings (which are made e.g. through a web-based form or in any other way) to the list. List-RobotPolicy: - refers to robots subscribing to the list, and processing the postings in some way. Such robots MUST NOT post to the list or send private mail to other subscribers except by explicit permission of the list-owner. Examples: A list with very liberal policies might use this: List-ArchivePolicy: 3 (everyone is welcome to archive this list) List-MirrorPolicy: 3 (everyone is welcome to mirror this list) List-GatewayPolicy: 1 (work together with us to prevent loops) List-RobotPolicy: 3 (robots are welcome but should keep quiet) Another list might use this: List-ArchivePolicy: 1 (ask: permission from the list-owner is needed) List-MirrorPolicy: 0 (this list should not be mirrored) List-CachingPolicy: 2 (cache postings for a month, help prevent spam) List-GatewayPolicy: 0 (direct submission of postings only) List-RobotPolicy: 2 (robots must help prevent spam) Default values: When not explicitly specified, List-ArchivePolicy:, List-GatewayPolicy: and List-RobotPolicy: have a default value of 1 (which means "don't do it without asking first"). If List-MirrorPolicy: and/or List-CachingPolicy: are not specified, then the value of List-ArchivePolicy: applies. For discussion.... Major disagreements with this proposal can be discussed right here on list-managers, while minor issues of refining the language etc should be discussed on the rfc-discuss list: http://maillist.info/mailman/listinfo/rfc-discuss Greetings, Norbert. -- Founder & Steering Committee member of http://gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://norbert.ch List hosting with GNU Mailman on your own domain name http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 20 09:03:39 2002 Received: from tarsus.cisto.com (tarsus.cisto.com [195.97.240.29]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F5B4195AE7 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-mu-3-2-dialup-43.freesurf.ch [194.230.133.43]) by tarsus.cisto.com (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18983 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:07:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g7KG3S824611; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:03:28 +0200 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:03:28 +0200 Message-Id: <200208201603.g7KG3S824611@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819200112.1565c200@127.0.0.1> (message from Nick Simicich on Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:35:34 -0400) Subject: Re: The gmane issue References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020819123912.038caaf0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020819200112.1565c200@127.0.0.1> X-Archive-Number: 200208/236 X-Sequence-Number: 864 Nick Simicich wrote: > If it in necessary to write an RFC, Whether necessary or not, a document will get written, and I'll try to get it accepted as a standards-track RFC. > it should explicitly say, "By the way, > it is not acceptable for you to grab messages and archive them unless you > get permission." I agree with the sentiment, but this isn't exactly the language that I'd use in a RFC. :-) I'd rather put something like: """ In particular, if nothing is explicitly specified, then that MUST be interpreted as equivalent to the following: List-ArchivePolicy: 1 (ask: permission from the list-owner is needed) List-GatewayPolicy: 1 (ask: permission from the list-owner is needed) List-RobotPolicy: 1 (ask: permission from the list-owner is needed) """ Are there any objections against this language? Greetings, Norbert. -- Founder & Steering Committee member of http://gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://norbert.ch List hosting with GNU Mailman on your own domain name http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 20 10:52:21 2002 Received: from www.lofcom.com (oldradio.net [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6A571959E0 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (lof@chcgil2-ar2-4-46-251-006.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.6]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10523; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:51:28 -0400 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Envelope-To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200208201603.g7KG3S824611@quill.local> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819200112.1565c200@127.0.0.1> (message from Nick Simicich on Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:35:34 -0400) <5.0.0.25.2.20020819123912.038caaf0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020819200112.1565c200@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:36:28 -0400 To: Norbert Bollow , List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: The gmane issue X-Archive-Number: 200208/237 X-Sequence-Number: 865 At 12:03 PM -0400 8/20/02, Norbert Bollow is rumored to have typed: > Are there any objections against this language? Looks fine to me; so long as someone asks permission when not explicitly granted permission (at which point I may make my wishes known and decide based on the list, the archive, etc.) I can't see where anyone (ok, maybe one) could object. Charlie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 20 11:43:56 2002 Received: from pat.uio.no (pat.uio.no [129.240.130.16]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352CA195AA8 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stjorn.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.66.225]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #7) id 17hDy2-00062n-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:43:02 +0200 Received: from localhost (thomas@localhost) by stjorn.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:43:02 +0200 (MEST) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:43:02 +0200 (MEST) From: Thomas Gramstad Reply-To: Thomas Gramstad To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: <247607718.1029762008@[192.168.254.8]> Message-ID: X-Contact-Me-Info: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/ X-My-Lists: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lists/ X-Best-Listserver: Majordomo 2 - http://csf.colorado.edu/mj/ X-Post-Objectivism: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/po/articles.html X-Amazons-Ring: http://H.webring.com/hub?ring=amazonsinternati X-Grrl: I love Janice X-For-Media: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/pix/ X-Bli-Med-I-EFN: http://www.efn.no/ X-Boktips: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lister/amasoner-bok.html X-ena: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lister/xena.html X-en-Buddhism: Clap one hand now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/238 X-Sequence-Number: 866 On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, Tom Neff wrote: > --On Monday, August 19, 2002 6:35 PM +0200 Thomas Gramstad > wrote: >> X-No-Archive-List: is too similar to X-No-Archive-List:. They >> would be confused with each other. > Oh, how can you say that? They are completely different!! :) Right, exactly! :) - Thomas From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 20 12:42:13 2002 Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.176.124.156]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CB171959F7 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toshiba.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2532935029; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:41:17 -0400 (EDT) X-America-Has-Resolve: yes X-Message-Flag: Microsoft Outlook is insecure. Upgrade your Mail Program Now! Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820131718.03a61110@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:01:37 -0400 To: Norbert Bollow , List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: A simpler idea for machine-readable In-Reply-To: <200208201520.g7KFKTV24061@quill.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2DB2553C; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/239 X-Sequence-Number: 867 This proposal takes care of all my objections. It allows for communication to humans, and it has reasonable defaults, and is not so complex that it can't be understood by the readers of the list, since to them, A URL that points to the policy or the natural language phrase is the most important thing. And the policy suggests that someone not using the standard should have their rights respected. Whereas I still doubt that a standard is needed at all, I am not going to object to a standard that has reasonable defaults so that it can be ignored. And it is not clear whether this standard should or should not allow for the assertion of a compilation copyright. If someone wanted to - they could code it as List-ArchivePolicy: 1 (Compilation Copyright © 2002 example.com All Rights Reserved) Which argues that one may repeat the header because one may have multiple comments (for example, an assertion of copyright and a URL pointing to the long policy) but that the numeric value MUST always be the same if the header is repeated, since programs should only parse the numeric, and they might grab the first or last instance. For legal purposes, it may be appropriate to claim that the comment SHOULD be rendered using HTML Entities - this gives one a way to encode a C-Circle. And if you do not render it correctly, :-), well, it was still encoded. Finally, it seems that the general standard for the headers would be: List-Archive-Policy: for headers, where bi-capitalization is meaningless because they are generally to be compared in a case independent fashion, and at least some header reformatters will blindly re-encode the original as "List-Archivepolicy:" --- or did I miss (or fail to understand the importance of) some important comments about namespace pollution? It might be reasonable to suggest somewhere that an invitation to ask permission is not an invitation to massmail - that it is inappropriate to send massmail to the owner addresses. This won't stop inveterate spammers, of course, but it may stop people who have questions as to what is appropriate. They should be respected by a program no matter where they appear - in a plain text section, in the mime headers, in the unlabled area that follows the RFC822 headers and precedes the first mime headers, or in the top level RFC822 headers. If they are put into a html section, or a section that is encoded in a scheme other than seven bit ascii (uuencode, base64, quoted-printable), they must be repeated in one of the above places for programmatic access. Or would it be simpler to simply require that the mail be plain text single section? At 05:20 PM 2002-08-20 +0200, Norbert Bollow wrote: >After some more thought, I now propose the following: > > >The machine-readable list-policies specification consists of one or >more lines of text, which each consists of three parts: > > >a) one of the field-names "List-ArchivePolicy:", "List-MirrorPolicy:", > "List-RobotPolicy:", "List-CachingPolicy:", "List-GatewayPolicy:" > >b) an integer number in the range of zero to three > >c) a comment which explains the policy for humans > > >Each of the field-names SHOULD occur only once. > >The meaning of the integer values is as follows: > >0 - States the policy that the activity is completely disallowed to > third parties, and that no exception will be made. > >1 - States the policy that the activity is generally disallowed to > third parties, but interested parties are invited to request > permission, and such requests will be considered on a case-by-case > basis. > >2 - States the policy that the activity is generally allowed under the > condition that the first thing that is done with all postings is > to remove any and all email addresses first, as a spam-prevention > measure. > >3 - States the policy that the activity is generally allowed, without > any requirements for removing email addresses. > > >The meaning of the field-names is as follows: > >List-ArchivePolicy: - refers to mailing list archives which are >published in some way, e.g. via the internet. (Regardless of >the List-ArchivePolicy: value, subscribers MAY always create >archives for their own personal use.) > >List-MirrorPolicy: - refers to making the content of the list >available through some other subscription-based channel, like >e.g. a newsfeed or another mailing list. > >List-CachingPolicy: - refers to making recent content of the >list available for a limited time of a month or less. > >List-GatewayPolicy: - refers to submitting postings (which are >made e.g. through a web-based form or in any other way) to the >list. > >List-RobotPolicy: - refers to robots subscribing to the list, and >processing the postings in some way. Such robots MUST NOT post >to the list or send private mail to other subscribers except by >explicit permission of the list-owner. > > >Examples: > >A list with very liberal policies might use this: > >List-ArchivePolicy: 3 (everyone is welcome to archive this list) >List-MirrorPolicy: 3 (everyone is welcome to mirror this list) >List-GatewayPolicy: 1 (work together with us to prevent loops) >List-RobotPolicy: 3 (robots are welcome but should keep quiet) > >Another list might use this: > >List-ArchivePolicy: 1 (ask: permission from the list-owner is needed) >List-MirrorPolicy: 0 (this list should not be mirrored) >List-CachingPolicy: 2 (cache postings for a month, help prevent spam) >List-GatewayPolicy: 0 (direct submission of postings only) >List-RobotPolicy: 2 (robots must help prevent spam) > > >Default values: > >When not explicitly specified, List-ArchivePolicy:, List-GatewayPolicy: >and List-RobotPolicy: have a default value of 1 (which means "don't do >it without asking first"). If List-MirrorPolicy: and/or >List-CachingPolicy: are not specified, then the value of >List-ArchivePolicy: applies. > > > >For discussion.... > >Major disagreements with this proposal can be discussed right here on >list-managers, while minor issues of refining the language etc should >be discussed on the rfc-discuss list: > >http://maillist.info/mailman/listinfo/rfc-discuss > > >Greetings, Norbert. > >-- >Founder & Steering Committee member of http://gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ >Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) >Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://norbert.ch >List hosting with GNU Mailman on your own domain name http://cisto.com -- "Forgive him, for he believes that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature!" -- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950) Nick Simicich - njs@scifi.squawk.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 20 13:31:52 2002 Received: from mail.wooz.org (dsl093-082-039.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.82.39]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BD70195ADB for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.wooz.org (Postfix, from userid 889) id 2ED2AD3800; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:30:41 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15714.42737.125479.190257@anthem.wooz.org> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:30:41 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Spam Conference X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) X-Attribution: BAW X-Oblique-Strategy: You don't have to be ashamed of using your own ideas X-Url: http://barry.wooz.org X-Archive-Number: 200208/240 X-Sequence-Number: 868 Just a note that Paul Graham's organizing a spam conference in January 2003 in Cambridge. I'm going to try to attend (but won't know for sure until the date's settled). -Barry http://www.paulgraham.com/spamconference.html From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 20 13:50:19 2002 Received: from pat.uio.no (pat.uio.no [129.240.130.16]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C6D1959F7 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stjorn.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.66.225]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #7) id 17hFwL-0003on-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:49:25 +0200 Received: from localhost (thomas@localhost) by stjorn.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:49:25 +0200 (MEST) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:49:25 +0200 (MEST) From: Thomas Gramstad Reply-To: Thomas Gramstad To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: [OT] Copyright vs. "intellectual property" (was: RFC; gmane) In-Reply-To: <200208192010.g7JKADB19481@quill.local> Message-ID: X-Contact-Me-Info: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/ X-My-Lists: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lists/ X-Best-Listserver: Majordomo 2 - http://csf.colorado.edu/mj/ X-Post-Objectivism: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/po/articles.html X-Amazons-Ring: http://H.webring.com/hub?ring=amazonsinternati X-Grrl: I love Janice X-For-Media: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/pix/ X-Bli-Med-I-EFN: http://www.efn.no/ X-Boktips: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lister/amasoner-bok.html X-ena: http://folk.uio.no/thomas/lister/xena.html X-en-Buddhism: Clap one hand now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/241 X-Sequence-Number: 869 On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, Norbert Bollow wrote: > Mike Nolan wrote: >> OMIGOD, you still believe in the copyright law? :-) > Well, IANAL, and from my layperson's perspective it looks like a > total mess, but I think it's part of the realities of the > environment in which I'm conducting business. > > Also, copyright law is what gives the copyleft of the GNU GPL > its teeth, and that's a very good application of copyright law > IMO. I've been very close to post a comment on copyright and "intellectual property" a couple of times recently, but decided it would be off-topic here. But since several others are posting about copyright now, so be it. I can go along with the idea of a limited copyright -- as outlined and delineated for example by Thomas Babington Macaulay in his speech in the House of Commons on the 5th of february 1841 -- which is still one of the best introductions to the considerations and principles of copyright. That speech is available here: http://yarchive.net/macaulay/copyright.html . Copyright laws may need amendments in a digital world, but if so, amendments in the opposite direction of "intellectual property". The recent virulent spread of the harmful and self-contradictory phrase "intellectual property" should be rejected out of hand. Copyright is not property. Not only is copyright and copyright law substantially different from property and laws about property in several ways. Also, copyright is a type of restrictions or limitations on property (by limiting what a rightful owner may do with her/his rightfully obtained copy of a work). Copyright is an artificial monopoly created and maintained by the state. There are some good reasons to defend such a monopoly in a limited way and for a limited time (cf. Macaulay). But we should not be confused about what copyright is, in particular we should not confuse it with property. Also, copyright may not be the only way to solve or deal with the thorny problem of intellectual creations and how to acknowledge and reward their creators. As for "intellectual property", this deceptive phrase is a destroyer of common or public knowledge, as it is being used both to steal and fence in all kinds of knowledge and works in the public domain, as well as to undermine and erase the individual's property rights to her/his rightfully obtained copies of works. "Intellectual property" is not only theft, it is grand larceny. A couple of links elaborating on the above points: (These articles span the political spectrum from the anarchist left to the libertarian right) Markus Krummenacker: Are "Intellectual Property Rights" Justified? Brian Martin: Against intellectual property Julio H. Cole: Patents and Copyrights: Do the Benefits Exceed the Costs? John Perry Barlow: The Economy of Ideas - A framework for rethinking patents and copyrights in the Digital Age Ilana Mercer: How Things Would Work in a Copyright Free Universe Wendy McElroy: Intellectual Property: Copyright and Patent in Liberty N. Stephan Kinsella: Against Intellectual Property: N. Stephan Kinsella: Do patents and copyrights undermine private property? Jeremy Sapienza: The Fraud of 'Intellectual Property' Jesse Walker: Copy Catfight - how intellectual property laws stifle popular culture Richard M. Stallman: Copyright and Globalization in the Age of Computer Networks Richard M. Stallman: The Right to Read Richard M. Stallman: Reevaluating Copyright: The Public Must Prevail Roderick T. Long: The Libertarian Case Against Intellectual Property Rights Siva Vaidhyanathan: Copyright as cudgel. Chronicle of Higher Education, 48(47), pp. B7-B9. August 2, 2002. Copyrights and Copywrongs John Gilmore: What's Wrong With Copy Protection? Statement of the Internet Society on Digital Rights Management http://www.isoc.org/isoc/media/releases/020815pr.shtml Marc Rotenberg (Salon magazine): Internet liberation theology http://dir.salon.com/tech/review/2001/11/07/lessig/index.html Creative Commons: http://www.creativecommons.org/ http://dmoz.org/Society/Issues/Intellectual_Property/ Thomas Gramstad thomas@ifi.uio.no From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Aug 20 14:35:56 2002 Received: from pde2.paramount.com (unknown [216.154.228.29]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D5B1959F1 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pde.paramount.com (pde.paramount.com [204.110.112.30]) by pde2.paramount.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076AE13EFE for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:31:19 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: MLM software Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:39:15 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: MLM software Thread-Index: AcJIkgfWaUASzljMQQukdCsXh9yKXQ== From: "James Leone" To: X-Archive-Number: 200208/242 X-Sequence-Number: 870 I'm trying to find an MLM package that has the following functionality. - discussion groups (with digest option) - integrate with db for managing accounts users - HTML support - custom headers and footers in message send within groups Here's the catch, it needs to run on Windows platform. Anybody know of such a product without the licensing fees of LISTSERV? PS. Majordomo indicated it did not have a windows version. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Aug 21 00:42:56 2002 Received: from refractory.homenet.firedrake.org (unknown [62.49.100.206]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 164BB195AAB for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 00:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from roger by refractory.homenet.firedrake.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17hQ7v-0001mq-00 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 08:42:03 +0100 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 08:42:03 +0100 From: Roger Burton West To: List Managers Subject: Re: Anti-spam "killer app"? Message-ID: <20020821074203.GA6861@firedrake.org> Mail-Followup-To: List Managers References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Phase-Of-Moon: The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (97% of Full) X-Discordian-Date: Pungenday, Bureaucracy 14 3168 X-Archive-Number: 200208/243 X-Sequence-Number: 871 On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 01:10:45PM -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > For Perl types, I've put together a module to use this algorithm for spam filtering. It's available on CPAN as: $CPAN/authors/id/F/FI/FIREDRAKE/Mail-SpamTest-Bayesian-0.01.tar.gz Roger From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Aug 21 01:24:09 2002 Received: from nina.cs.keele.ac.uk (unknown [160.5.89.35]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F4DB195AAB for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 01:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jonathan by nina.cs.keele.ac.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 17hQkk-0004o5-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:22:10 +0100 Subject: Need a distributed mailing list manager To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:22:10 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: Jonathan Knight X-Archive-Number: 200208/244 X-Sequence-Number: 872 I need to find a mailing list manager for our site here at Keele. We currently use majordomo 1 which is no longer meeting our needs. My plan is to move to mailman but I have some questions. We have a requirement for a fault tollerant MLM so that if the MLM machine is down then mail to the lists can still be processed. What I do at the moment is to distribute the majordomo mailing lists together with a copy of "resend" to a number of other machines. The main MLM only deals with sub/unsub and all the other machines do all the list expansion. Does anyone else do something like this? What do you use to do it? -- ______ jonathan@cs.keele.ac.uk Jonathan Knight, / Department of Computer Science / _ __ Telephone: +44 1782 583437 University of Keele, Keele, (_/ (_) / / Fax : +44 1782 713082 Staffordshire. ST5 5BG. U.K. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Aug 21 06:29:36 2002 Received: from mail.wooz.org (dsl093-082-039.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.82.39]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE69B1959EF for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 06:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.wooz.org (Postfix, from userid 889) id A1F59D3800; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:28:42 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15715.38282.581885.61399@anthem.wooz.org> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:28:42 -0400 To: Roger Burton West Cc: List Managers Subject: Re: Anti-spam "killer app"? References: <20020821074203.GA6861@firedrake.org> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) X-Attribution: BAW X-Oblique-Strategy: Simply a matter of work X-Url: http://barry.wooz.org X-Archive-Number: 200208/245 X-Sequence-Number: 873 >>>>> "RBW" == Roger Burton West writes: >> RBW> For Perl types, I've put together a module to use this RBW> algorithm for spam filtering. It's available on CPAN as: RBW> $CPAN/authors/id/F/FI/FIREDRAKE/Mail-SpamTest-Bayesian-0.01.tar.gz Seems like after 40+ years, this is now all the rage. :) A version that a bunch of us Pythonistas are hacking away at: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/python/python/nondist/sandbox/spambayes/ Enjoy, -Barry From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Aug 21 06:44:28 2002 Received: from tarsus.cisto.com (tarsus.cisto.com [195.97.240.29]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E4A31959E1 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 06:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-zh-15-1-dialup-150.freesurf.ch [194.230.213.150]) by tarsus.cisto.com (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06942; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:48:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g7LDhY430774; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:43:34 +0200 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:43:34 +0200 Message-Id: <200208211343.g7LDhY430774@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Cc: rfc-discuss@maillist.info In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820131718.03a61110@127.0.0.1> (message from Nick Simicich on Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:01:37 -0400) Subject: Re: A simpler idea for machine-readable References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820131718.03a61110@127.0.0.1> X-Archive-Number: 200208/246 X-Sequence-Number: 874 Nick Simicich wrote: > it is not clear whether this standard should or should not > allow for the assertion of a compilation copyright. In the RFC, I want to avoid making any statements about how copyright law may or may not apply to mailing lists. I've included an example Compilation Copyright assertion in the examples section though. > Which argues that one may repeat the header because one may have multiple > comments (for example, an assertion of copyright and a URL pointing to the > long policy) Why not put both into the same header (possibly folded across multiple lines)? List-Policy-Archive: Ask (Compilation Copyright © 2002 Example Inc. All Rights Reserved. For policy details refer to ) > They should be respected by a program no matter where they appear - in a > plain text section, in the mime headers, in the unlabled area that follows > the RFC822 headers and precedes the first mime headers, or in the top level > RFC822 headers. If they are put into a html section, or a section that is > encoded in a scheme other than seven bit ascii (uuencode, base64, > quoted-printable), they must be repeated in one of the above places for > programmatic access. If the policy file is HTML, it could be required that the specifications are enclosed in 
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. > [..] Many other good comments deleted, but still appreciated! :-) The newest version of the draft is at http://maillist.info/rfc-draft.txt Greetings, Norbert. -- Founder & Steering Committee member of http://gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://norbert.ch List hosting with GNU Mailman on your own domain name http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Aug 21 13:24:21 2002 Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E9F7195AFF for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 24-205-154-98.riv-eres.charterpipeline.net ([24.205.154.98] helo=lehel.goldmark.private) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17hc0h-0002wY-00; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:23:23 -0700 Received: from jeffrey (helo=localhost) by lehel.goldmark.private with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 17hbzA-0006In-00; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:21:48 -0700 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:21:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-X-Sender: jeffrey@lehel.goldmark.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: List Managers Mailing list Cc: rfc-discuss@maillist.info Subject: Re: A simpler idea for machine-readable In-Reply-To: <200208211343.g7LDhY430774@quill.local> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/247 X-Sequence-Number: 875 On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Norbert Bollow wrote: > The newest version of the draft is at > http://maillist.info/rfc-draft.txt A couple of comments (some very minor, others slightly more substantive). (1) Could you put some kind of version number or last modify time on that so that we know whether we are commenting on the same draft. (2) I'm wondering if we want finer distinctions than just the four listed. And whether a multidigit code would be better ala SMTP response codes. Furthermore allowing several comma separated codes per line. So 1xx (Forbidden) 2xx (Ask) 3xx (munge) 4xx (allowed) while x0x (all publically accessable modes) x1x (http accessible) x2x (nntp accessible) x3x (some mail access protocol (IMAP, POP) x4x (mail query mechanism, archive sent in response to mail) For munge we could have finer distinctions. xx1 (all email addresses) xx2 (header addresses only) xx3 (only header addresses picked up by NNTP XOVER) Thus we could have a header like: List-Policy-Archive: 210, 423, 431 which would say. Web archives must ask. NNTP archives are must munge relevant header addresses, and IMAP-like archives must munge everything. I agree that this gives up the human readable virtue of what you have now. Maybe a mixed protocol which would allow something like List-Policy-Archive: Ask: 210, 423, 431 (Comment goes here) Making each part optional (though at least must be present). -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Aug 21 17:54:18 2002 Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.176.124.156]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AE0A195AB4 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toshiba.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2382A351DB; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:53:24 -0400 (EDT) X-America-Has-Resolve: yes X-Message-Flag: Microsoft Outlook is insecure. Upgrade your Mail Program Now! Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821184545.28105830@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:20:16 -0400 To: Norbert Bollow , List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: <200208201603.g7KG3S824611@quill.local> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819200112.1565c200@127.0.0.1> <5.0.0.25.2.20020819123912.038caaf0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020819200112.1565c200@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-764059EB; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/248 X-Sequence-Number: 876 At 06:03 PM 2002-08-20 +0200, Norbert Bollow wrote: >I agree with the sentiment, but this isn't exactly the language that >I'd use in a RFC. :-) > >I'd rather put something like: > >""" >In particular, if nothing is explicitly specified, then that MUST be >interpreted as equivalent to the following: > >List-ArchivePolicy: 1 (ask: permission from the list-owner is needed) >List-GatewayPolicy: 1 (ask: permission from the list-owner is needed) >List-RobotPolicy: 1 (ask: permission from the list-owner is needed) > >""" > >Are there any objections against this language? I have a word choice issue.. >In particular, if nothing is explicitly specified, then the interpretation >MUST be >the following: "then that" is not reasonable English, as there is no antecedent for that in this case. Maybe the antecedent would become apparent if there were more context, but sentences in RFCs tend to get misinterpreted if they can't stand on their own. -- "Forgive him, for he believes that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature!" -- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950) Nick Simicich - njs@scifi.squawk.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Aug 21 17:54:19 2002 Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.176.124.156]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BC63195B11 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toshiba.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91C783502A; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:53:24 -0400 (EDT) X-America-Has-Resolve: yes X-Message-Flag: Microsoft Outlook is insecure. Upgrade your Mail Program Now! Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821192354.0a9a8008@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:52:49 -0400 To: Norbert Bollow , List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: A simpler idea for machine-readable Cc: rfc-discuss@maillist.info In-Reply-To: <200208211343.g7LDhY430774@quill.local> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820131718.03a61110@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20020820131718.03a61110@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-764059EB; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200208/249 X-Sequence-Number: 877 At 03:43 PM 2002-08-21 +0200, Norbert Bollow wrote: >Why not put both into the same header (possibly folded across multiple >lines)? Because they might be added in different stages. I'll admit that I can't come up with a good reason for doing it now, but I do not see the problem with allowing for it as long as a program can parse any of the individual headers and come up with the same answer. >List-Policy-Archive: Ask (Compilation Copyright © 2002 Example Inc. > All Rights Reserved. For policy details refer to > ) > > > They should be respected by a program no matter where they appear - in a > > plain text section, in the mime headers, in the unlabled area that follows > > the RFC822 headers and precedes the first mime headers, or in the top > level > > RFC822 headers. If they are put into a html section, or a section that is > > encoded in a scheme other than seven bit ascii (uuencode, base64, > > quoted-printable), they must be repeated in one of the above places for > > programmatic access. > >If the policy file is HTML, it could be required that the >specifications are enclosed in 
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. The problem is the potential for encoding. If someone decides to encode the html section in base64 or quoted printable (and this could be done by the MTA if the section is 8-Bit, even if it is not sent encoded), then the body headers may not be machine parsable until they are decoded, whereas the places I mentioned are not, as far as I know, ever encoded. You can be reasonably sure that the top level headers will never be encoded. I would be loath to require that the programmer writing a parser for this decode sections or interpret html. I am not sure how you stop your section from being encoded, except for not using 8 bit characters. -- "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." -- Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis (1952) Nick Simicich - njs@scifi.squawk.com - http://scifi.squawk.com/njs.html From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 22 01:38:11 2002 Received: from rowan.oak-wood.co.uk (pc2-nott1-3-cust27.not.cable.ntl.com [213.107.48.27]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF5C195AA8 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 01:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from celandine.oak-wood.co.uk (celandine.oak-wood.co.uk [192.168.37.3]) by rowan.oak-wood.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16FCA218D for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:37:17 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:36:45 +0100 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Chris Hastie Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U () X-Archive-Number: 200208/250 X-Sequence-Number: 878 On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, Russ Allbery wrote >But I think you've completely missed my point, as stated in my previous >message. The ideal archives have the same interface as *the user's e-mail >client* but with searching. And by "the user's e-mail client," I mean >exactly that. If they use Eudora, it should look like Eudora. If they >use Outlook, it should look like Outlook. If they use Pine, it should >look like Pine. Because that's the interface they already know how to use >and are comfortable with. > >If you have *any* other interface, you're making the user learn something >new, and you're going to disenfranchise at least some of the least >computer-savvy in your audience. Here I have to disagree. Most users know how to use the web. It's not new to them, it's the basics of their Internet experience. A significant proportion even use it to read their mail via Hotmail or similar webmail accounts. Most users, IME, haven't got a clue how to configure their mail client. They buy a PC with Outlook Express already installed, sign up for an account with some ISP who has a script to configure OE for them and that's it. Try and get them to configure their client to access a read only IMAP folder somewhere and, well, forget it. I used to archive a list using NNTP. The list is not for computer techies or net savvy people and as far as I could tell only two subscribers ever worked out how to access the archive. Now that it's web based it is very much more widely used. Sure, there are plenty of problems with a web based archive, but the ability of users to work out how to use it is not one of them. I certainly wouldn't recommend the web archive as a way to read the list - best way to do that is subscribe. But as a way to search for info on some obscure topic that was covered on the list two years before you knew you were interested in it it works fine. -- Chris Hastie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 22 05:13:38 2002 Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54EC71959E5 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 05:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g7MCCZ472321 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:12:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: from tom-w2kc (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g7MCCYU72251 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:12:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:14:31 -0400 From: Tom Neff Reply-To: tneff@grassyhill.org To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing list-managers on Message-ID: <489671140.1030004071@[192.168.254.8]> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) Organization: Grassy Hill Entertainment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanner: scanned by Inflex 1.0.12.3 - http://pldaniels.com/inflex X-Archive-Number: 200208/251 X-Sequence-Number: 879 Chris Hastie speaks the gospel truth. People may know their email interface for daily reading of new mail, but probably not for archival browsing and searching! They're as well off using the Web for that "advanced" application as they are anything else. What's more, many of the IMAP servers and clients I've used perform *terribly* when handed a truly huge folder. The thought of dozens or hundreds of archive users all trying to access one big folder at once is chilling. :) So you end up breaking into 2002/01, 2002/02, etc... and hope against hope that the client supports recursive searches (Mulberry, Mozilla and IE do not, last I checked). From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 22 06:53:10 2002 Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [207.192.128.31]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2095C195AA7 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [207.192.128.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g7MDqFJU029499; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:52:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Beartooth Reply-To: KHLsv To: Nick Simicich Cc: Norbert Bollow , Subject: Re: The gmane issue In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821184545.28105830@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/252 X-Sequence-Number: 880 On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Nick Simicich wrote: > >""" In particular, if nothing is explicitly specified, then that > >MUST be interpreted as equivalent to the following: (snip) > I have a word choice issue.. > > >In particular, if nothing is explicitly specified, then the > >interpretation MUST be the following: > > "then that" is not reasonable English, as there is no antecedent > for that in this case. Maybe the antecedent would become > apparent if there were more context, but sentences in RFCs tend > to get misinterpreted if they can't stand on their own. As an erstwhile professional grammarian, I concur. There's an alternative solution: make it "then that fact means" -- but Nick's is better, especially in this case. -- Beartooth the Stubborn , double retiree, linux hatchling w/ RH 7.2; ssh'd (DSL) to pine 4.43 on ISP's SunOS 5.8; Opera 6.02, Pan 0.11.2, Galeon 1.2.5, & Mozilla 1.0 Neo-Redneck, Weird by Nature -- and with Gusto! From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 22 19:13:08 2002 Received: from rowan.oak-wood.co.uk (pc2-nott1-3-cust27.not.cable.ntl.com [213.107.48.27]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1F37195ABC for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from celandine.oak-wood.co.uk (celandine.oak-wood.co.uk [192.168.37.3]) by rowan.oak-wood.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD78227B for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:36:27 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:36:18 +0100 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Chris Hastie Subject: Re: Better mailing list archives (Re: Listing References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817003104.039615f8@127.0.0.1> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U () X-Archive-Number: 200208/253 X-Sequence-Number: 881 On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Chuq Von Rospach wrote >On 8/16/02 9:46 PM, "Nick Simicich" wrote: > >I do. Think about how an iMap client works (or a usenet client) vs. a web >page. As you navigate the web page, you're doing a lot of loading new pages >and refreshing. With iMap and usenet, you download the key header >information and then the client manipulates it. > But what is the purpose of an archive? How is it used by the majority of users? It seems to me, perhaps I'm just not thinking out of the box, that an archive is generally used to find and read a small number of articles meeting particular criteria. It is not used to systematically read all the messages it contains. Sending all the headers for an archive of 10,000 messages seems over the top if the user only wants to read three of them. In this situation we want to assess which messages the user is interested in and send only those. That means server side processing, and this is something a web interface is reasonably good at. And NNTP completely useless at. To select all the messages from Joe you will have to grab all the headers, process them and then request the appropriate ones from the server. To select all messages mentioning Joe, you're going to have to grab the lot to search in the bodies. IMAP does offer significant improvements in this respect and IMHO has a lot more potential as a vehicle for archives. What I'm really getting at is that different modes of use will be benefited by different systems. I tend to the view that as something that can be searched for that little snippet of information you really need right now, web archives with a good search facility are far from bad. I also think they could be improved upon and still be web interfaces. >With web, you have a constant stream of relatively slow updates. With iMap >and NNTP, you have a slower startup time to load the data, but faster >browsing. And from a user perception view, that slower startup time can be a >lot less intrusive than constant small delays. > Agreed, but... Firstly I question whether browsing is the usual mode of using an archive. I often find myself at marc for some reason, but I don't think I've ever browsed a list there - I search for what I'm after, skim through the results to see if anything catches my eye as being spot on my question and go there. Secondly, is user perception the only thing that we should be concerned about? What about bandwidth? Sure, all the pretties of the web add to this, but on the plus side the client asks a question, the server sends the answer. Set this against the server sends all the data and the client then asks the question of itself. >But that can be minimized, I think, though careful use of frames. I'm not >sure I'd go all the way to the javascript browser, IMHO. You're better off >offering NNTP or iMap and not trying to rebuild those browsers in >Javascript. IMAP I can see, NNTP not. I've been wondering about experimenting with a read only IMAP folder and IMP to provide a web interface to it. Maybe one day I'll have time to experiment... -- Chris Hastie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 23 05:35:56 2002 Received: from tarsus.cisto.com (tarsus.cisto.com [195.97.240.29]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12729195B27 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 05:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-mu-16-2-dialup-129.freesurf.ch [194.230.115.129]) by tarsus.cisto.com (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18886; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:39:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g7NCaNB11859; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:36:23 +0200 Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:36:23 +0200 Message-Id: <200208231236.g7NCaNB11859@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: jeffrey@goldmark.org Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, rfc-discuss@maillist.info In-reply-to: (message from Jeffrey Goldberg on Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:21:48 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: [RFC-discuss] Re: A simpler idea for machine-readable References: X-Archive-Number: 200208/254 X-Sequence-Number: 882 Jeffrey Goldberg wrote: > Could you put some kind of version number or last modify time on that > so that we know whether we are commenting on the same draft. Done. You will now find properly-numbered and dated drafts at http://maillist.info/rfc-draft/ > I'm wondering if we want finer distinctions than just the four listed. I think that we need to be very careful that we don't raise the barrier to learning the proposed system so high that very few would bother about it. Also, won't those list-owners who want to exercise fine distinctions want to be asked anyway so that they can personally decide whether they want that particular archive / mirror / robot ? > And whether a multidigit code would be better ala SMTP response codes. If we adopt a multidigit code, it should have two digits or four, not three -- so that it won't get confused with SMTP and HTTP response codes. Greetings, Norbert. -- Founder & Steering Committee member of http://gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://norbert.ch List hosting with GNU Mailman on your own domain name http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 23 05:51:02 2002 Received: from tarsus.cisto.com (tarsus.cisto.com [195.97.240.29]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8580E195AAA for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 05:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-mu-16-2-dialup-129.freesurf.ch [194.230.115.129]) by tarsus.cisto.com (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19041; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:54:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g7NCpYb11898; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:51:34 +0200 Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:51:34 +0200 Message-Id: <200208231251.g7NCpYb11898@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: njs@scifi.squawk.com Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, rfc-discuss@maillist.info In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821184545.28105830@127.0.0.1> (message from Nick Simicich on Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:20:16 -0400) Subject: Re: The gmane issue References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819200112.1565c200@127.0.0.1> <5.0.0.25.2.20020819123912.038caaf0@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020819200112.1565c200@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20020821184545.28105830@127.0.0.1> X-Archive-Number: 200208/255 X-Sequence-Number: 883 Nick Simicich wrote: > "then that" is not reasonable English, as there is no antecedent for that > in this case. Maybe the antecedent would become apparent if there were > more context, but sentences in RFCs tend to get misinterpreted if they > can't stand on their own. Thank you for pointing this out. Fixed (hopefully! :-) by essentially adopting your proposed language. The revised version is http://maillist.info/rfc-draft/draft0.03.txt Greetings, Norbert. -- Founder & Steering Committee member of http://gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://norbert.ch List hosting with GNU Mailman on your own domain name http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 23 06:42:00 2002 Received: from tarsus.cisto.com (tarsus.cisto.com [195.97.240.29]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91910195AAA for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 06:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-mu-3-1-dialup-6.freesurf.ch [194.230.132.6]) by tarsus.cisto.com (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20141; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:45:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g7NDf6212287; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 15:41:06 +0200 Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 15:41:06 +0200 Message-Id: <200208231341.g7NDf6212287@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: njs@scifi.squawk.com Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, rfc-discuss@maillist.info In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821192354.0a9a8008@127.0.0.1> (message from Nick Simicich on Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:52:49 -0400) Subject: Re: A simpler idea for machine-readable References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820131718.03a61110@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20020820131718.03a61110@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20020821192354.0a9a8008@127.0.0.1> X-Archive-Number: 200208/256 X-Sequence-Number: 884 Nick Simicich wrote: > >Why not put both into the same header (possibly folded across multiple > >lines)? > > Because they might be added in different stages. I'll admit that I can't > come up with a good reason for doing it now, but I do not see the problem > with allowing for it as long as a program can parse any of the individual > headers and come up with the same answer. Unless there is a strong reason to allow multiple instances of the same field-name, it just needlessly adds complexity to all programs which parse the policy-specifications, because then if they want to do something with the explanatory-text, they have to continue looking till the end of the file, and if there are multiple relevant policy-specifications, join all the explanatory-texts to form a longer string. > I am not sure how you stop your section from being encoded, except for not > using 8 bit characters. Good point; I'll try to remember that when I write the part about where to put the policy-specifications. Greetings, Norbert. -- Founder & Steering Committee member of http://gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://norbert.ch List hosting with GNU Mailman on your own domain name http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 23 18:38:45 2002 Received: from host3.ctc.net (host3.mail.vnet.net [166.82.1.68]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EE6A195B27 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net ([166.82.1.7]) by host3.ctc.net (InterMail vK.4.03.05.03 201-232-132-103 license 2d687b22c655f23831a2faa19b737467) with ESMTP id <20020824013826.XGAU327.host3@katie.vnet.net> for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 21:38:26 -0400 Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7O1bo611238 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 21:37:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 21:37:50 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: Subject: Simple Top-Quote Filter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/257 X-Sequence-Number: 885 I find top-quoting extremely annoying on most mailing lists. A $ub$criber typically quotes back an entire article, adds a few lines of their own to the top, and sends the whole thing back to the list. This makes threads difficult to follow when $ub$cribed in individual post mode. The dige$ts can become nearly indecipherable. Fortunately, my lists all use a footers that include instructions for un$ub$cribing, the user's $ub$cribed email address and other info. I've set up a filter that looks for some of the strings in the footers which are very unlikely to be mentioned in the body of a reply. If a $ub$criber blindly quotes back the whole article, including the footers, their post is rejected and they receive a polite email notifying them of the rejection and describing how one should use quotes on a mailing list. Wish I had thought of this years ago. - murr - From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sun Aug 25 22:06:20 2002 Received: from mail.vjs.org (cust13781.lava.net [64.65.85.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF161960FF for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 22:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [63.215.158.162] (64.65.85.212) by mail.vjs.org with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Sun, 25 Aug 2002 19:05:27 -1000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Eudora 6.0b19 for Cray SV-2 (beta release), unregistered Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 00:50:28 -1000 To: From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Simple Top-Quote Filter Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Archive-Number: 200208/258 X-Sequence-Number: 886 ** Sometime around 21:37 -0400 08/23/02, murr rhame sent everyone: > >I find top-quoting extremely annoying on most mailing lists. Based on your message, I believe you actually mean "top-posting," not "top-quoting" -- in which case, I agree with you completely. >A >$ub$criber typically quotes back an entire article, adds a few >lines of their own to the top, and sends the whole thing back to >the list. This makes threads difficult to follow when $ub$cribed >in individual post mode. The dige$ts can become nearly >indecipherable. Agreed on all points. It is for these reasons, plus the fact that having *some* subscribers top-post and other subscribers bottom-post (or what I refer to as "threaded posting") quickly renders the thread completely indecipherable, even in MAIL mode, that we have recently commenced a Jihad To Enforce Threaded Posting(tm) on all of our mailing lists. We've currently rolled it out on a trial basis to only a couple of lists, but so far the response seems to be better than expected. (Note that I expected roughly *zero* change in subscribers' posting habits, so any positive change is "better than expected.") FWIW, I blame the Bane Of Top-Posting on Microsoft and Outlook [Express]. :-) >Fortunately, my lists all use a footers that >include instructions for un$ub$cribing, the user's $ub$cribed >email address and other info. I've set up a filter that looks >for some of the strings in the footers which are very unlikely to >be mentioned in the body of a reply. If a $ub$criber blindly >quotes back the whole article, including the footers, their post >is rejected and they receive a polite email notifying them of the >rejection and describing how one should use quotes on a mailing >list. Wish I had thought of this years ago. A good idea, if one uses footers. We use RFC2369-style List-X headers instead. We could use footers in addition to List-X headers, but footers have proven to be annoying to the majority of subscribers, and effective primarily in cases where the subscriber is sufficiently heads-up to not need them, anyway. Speaking of RFC 2369 ... does anyone know of any mail clients that actually use the List-X headers to provide, for example, an "Unsubscribe From Mailing List" button on the client's UI? I (as many) was hoping to see at least _some_ adoption of the standard, but I'm not aware of any mail clients that have implemented it. REQUEST: If it has been implemented in Outlook/OE, please don't tell me; I have a long-standing dislike of that particular mail client(s), and I certainly don't want something as lame as reason to come between me and my personal pet peeves. Mucho mahalo. - Vince P.S. -- The observant reader will note that this message posted to the list just fine, and was quite easily read, without resorting to the annoying and unnecessary substitution of dollar signs ($) for the letter "s" in words like "subscriber," "digest," etc. Nor is the substitution of the letter "z" any better. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sun Aug 25 23:24:51 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D800196050 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17jDI0-00031u-00 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:23:52 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17jDI0-00031l-00; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:23:52 -0700 To: Vince Sabio Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Simple Top-Quote Filter In-Reply-To: Message from Vince Sabio of "Mon, 26 Aug 2002 00:50:28 -1000." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:23:52 -0700 Message-ID: <11640.1030343032@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: vince@vjs.org, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: zFVu18i0m1qBQe5ZMf9KZozrhlI X-Archive-Number: 200208/259 X-Sequence-Number: 887 On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 00:50:28 -1000 Vince Sabio wrote: > Based on your message, I believe you actually mean "top-posting," not > "top-quoting" -- in which case, I agree with you completely. I simply bounce or delete all bottom quoted messages, much as I do for posts which don't have correct attributions or which are badly formatted. > Speaking of RFC 2369 ... does anyone know of any mail clients that > actually use the List-X headers to provide, for example, an > "Unsubscribe From Mailing List" button on the client's UI? exmh does, as I think does mutt. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 26 05:12:03 2002 Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5746D195B05 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 05:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g7QCAxL18792 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 08:10:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: from tom-w2kc (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g7QCAvU18722 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 08:10:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 08:10:59 -0400 From: Tom Neff Reply-To: tneff@grassyhill.org To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Simple Top-Quote Filter Message-ID: <835172703.1030349459@[192.168.254.8]> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) Organization: Grassy Hill Entertainment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanner: scanned by Inflex 1.0.12.3 - http://pldaniels.com/inflex X-Archive-Number: 200208/260 X-Sequence-Number: 888 --On Monday, August 26, 2002 12:50 AM -1000 Vince Sabio wrote: > Agreed on all points. It is for these reasons, plus the fact that having > *some* subscribers top-post and other subscribers bottom-post (or what I > refer to as "threaded posting") quickly renders the thread completely > indecipherable, even in MAIL mode, that we have recently commenced a > Jihad To Enforce Threaded Posting(tm) on all of our mailing lists. We've > currently rolled it out on a trial basis to only a couple of lists, but > so far the response seems to be better than expected. (Note that I > expected roughly *zero* change in subscribers' posting habits, so any > positive change is "better than expected.") I don't know what's next - bouncing messages containing misspellings, on the grounds that it distracts from the message content for some readers? People think I'M strict, but I'm clearly an amateur next to the real maillist mullahs :) > P.S. -- The observant reader will note that this message posted to the > list just fine, and was quite easily read, without resorting to the > annoying and unnecessary substitution of dollar signs ($) for the letter > "s" in words like "subscriber," "digest," etc. Nor is the substitution of > the letter "z" any better. Yes, on THIS list, and it's a damn good thing considering our central topic! But so many of our own and others' lists do have those filters, that masking becomes second nature, although as you suggest, some subterfuges are uglier than others. :) (also note that this rebuttal was quite easily read without resorting to fake HTML markups...) Say, why don't we cook up a big RFC and a rat's-nest of new X-Headers to communicate this meta-information automatically to $*bzkr1b3r5....... hehehe From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 26 07:41:42 2002 Received: from host3.ctc.net (host3.mail.vnet.net [166.82.1.68]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7853B195F6F for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 07:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net ([166.82.1.7]) by host3.ctc.net (InterMail vK.4.03.05.03 201-232-132-103 license 2d687b22c655f23831a2faa19b737467) with ESMTP id <20020826144124.TQIY327.host3@katie.vnet.net>; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:41:24 -0400 Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7QEemG20552; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:40:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:40:47 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: Vince Sabio Cc: Subject: Re: Simple Top-Quote Filter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/261 X-Sequence-Number: 889 On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Vince Sabio wrote: > FWIW, I blame the Bane Of Top-Posting on Microsoft and > Outlook [Express]. :-) I dunno. I can easily top post using Pine. > A good idea, if one uses footers. We use RFC2369-style List-X > headers instead... I use X-List headers along with footers. As I mentioned before, the footers have additional info. The only time I find footers annoying is when they get quoted back to the list. > Speaking of RFC 2369 ... does anyone know of any mail clients > that actually use the List-X headers... Pine is RFC-2369 aware. Lyris injects the headers by default. > the list just fine, and was quite easily read, without > resorting to the annoying and unnecessary substitution of > dollar signs ($) for the letter "s"... Cool! I was hoping the new release of Majordomo wasn't so picky about command words. Thank you for testing. - murr - From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 26 07:53:00 2002 Received: from host3.ctc.net (host3.mail.vnet.net [166.82.1.68]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 126DC1959EE for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 07:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net ([166.82.1.7]) by host3.ctc.net (InterMail vK.4.03.05.03 201-232-132-103 license 2d687b22c655f23831a2faa19b737467) with ESMTP id <20020826145241.TSYF327.host3@katie.vnet.net> for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:52:41 -0400 Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7QEq6o20698 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:52:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:52:06 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: Subject: Re: Simple Top-Quote Filter In-Reply-To: <835172703.1030349459@[192.168.254.8]> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200208/262 X-Sequence-Number: 890 On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Tom Neff wrote: > I don't know what's next - bouncing messages containing > misspellings, on the grounds that it distracts from the > message content for some readers? People think I'M strict, > but I'm clearly an amateur next to the real maillist mullahs > :) If top posting doesn't bother you, worry not. The issue tends to grow in importance as list traffic increases. I've got one list that averages a couple of posts a month that I will not add this filter to. I know one admin who's list runs 100+ posts daily. He limits quoting to five lines total. It all depends on what works fer you. - murr - From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 26 07:56:58 2002 Received: from mail.rev.net (server02.rev.net [206.67.68.98]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66BC6196098 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 07:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fantasy (cosell.gva.net [65.164.103.253]) by mail.rev.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g7QEu3f32173 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:56:03 -0400 Message-Id: <200208261456.g7QEu3f32173@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:56:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Simple Top-Quote Filter References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.3.1(snapshot 20020108) (server02.rev.net) X-Archived: msg.1030373763.RSVSV3@server02.rev.net X-Archive-Number: 200208/263 X-Sequence-Number: 891 On 26 Aug 2002, at 10:40, murr rhame wrote: > On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Vince Sabio wrote: > > > FWIW, I blame the Bane Of Top-Posting on Microsoft and > > Outlook [Express]. :-) > > I dunno. I can easily top post using Pine. Yeah, but I think that OE was the first of the mail clients to have its default behavior be to have its reply machinery dump you at the top of a message with 'ORIGINAL MESSAGE FOLLOWS' below [followed by the *entirety*, headers, footers, .sigs, etc] of the replied-to message], really discouraging you from doing anything else OTHER than a jeopardy- style reply. /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Aug 26 08:44:28 2002 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864B81959EE for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 08:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=dingo.home.kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17jM1e-0004EN-00 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 08:43:34 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17jM1d-0004EE-00; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 08:43:33 -0700 To: "Bernie Cosell" Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Simple Top-Quote Filter In-Reply-To: Message from "Bernie Cosell" of "Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:56:00 EDT." <200208261456.g7QEu3f32173@mail.rev.net> References: <200208261456.g7QEu3f32173@mail.rev.net> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 08:43:33 -0700 Message-ID: <16257.1030376613@kanga.nu> X-Envelope-To: bernie@fantasyfarm.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: J C Lawrence X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.58 X-TMDA-Fingerprint: TWx2Xs6AMThmKOMOAPCSfIckaLA X-Archive-Number: 200208/264 X-Sequence-Number: 892 On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:56:00 -0400 Bernie Cosell wrote: > Yeah, but I think that OE was the first of the mail clients to have > its default behavior be to have its reply machinery dump you at the > top of a message with 'ORIGINAL MESSAGE FOLLOWS' below [followed by > the *entirety*, headers, footers, .sigs, etc] of the replied-to > message], really discouraging you from doing anything else OTHER than > a jeopardy- style reply. Add the fact that Outlook doesn't use quote prefixes on quoted text by default... -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live.