Great Circle Associates List-Managers
(November 1999)

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Subject: What is list-managers? (was Re: AOL dropping mail
From: Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui @ plaidworks . com>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:16:05 -0800
To: "Tom Neff" <tneff @ bigfoot . com>, <List-Managers @ GreatCircle . COM>
In-reply-to: <>
References: <>

At 10:04 AM -0500 11/20/99, Tom Neff wrote:

> be true.  I get spammed at AOL approx. 8 times per week, versus about 10-15
> times per week at (for example) panix.  The only accounts I have where spam
> is nonexistent are at services like Bigfoot where they offer an aggressive
> spam filter as a checkbox option.
> So this is not a theoretical argument at all...

And mine is the opposite, despite the fact that my aol account is not 
advertised anywhere.

> That is something of a non sequitur.  What I am saying is that the ability
> to provide service, PER USER, should not degrade as an ISP grows,

Which is like saying that, on a per-user basis, a McDonalds should 
have the same caliber service as that 10 seat restaurant down on the 
wharf. Nice in theory, but reality doesn't scale, Tom. It really 

> We all find fascination where we can.

Yeah, we sure do.

On the other hand, it brings up a fascinating question. What is 
list-managers for?

I don't ask that lightly, either, but to be honest, I view 
list-managers as a place where, hopefully, people who actually do 
this stuff can compare notes, get advice, and get some advance 
group-think/group-warning on emerging technologies and trends.

But it's not. Mostly, it's Ronald, a self-admitted non-list-manager, 
trolling the list to tell us why were all idiots and doing it wrong, 
people like Nick, who only seems ot show up to browbeat AOL, and a 
few others who primarily seem to view list-managers as a place to 
complain aobut what everyone else is doing wrong, but never offer 
solutions or alternatives, and others who feel that if it was good 
enough in 1985, it's great now (Hi, Rich! grin).

I've been getting pretty ruthless on which lists I stay on, because I 
simply don't have the time. And list-managers has been on the bubble 
for a good year now. I can't remember the last time I got useful 
information off of it, but I stay around because I keep hoping, and 
because I think maybe I can help someone else once in a while. But 
usually, all that does is get me yelled at by Ronald or Nick or Rich 
again, since, god forbid, I don't always toe the party line. n

So why am I here? Answer: I dunno. But the bigger question is -- why 
is list-managers here? Because it seems it simply isn't used unless 
someone wants to complain about what someone else is doing.

Is that what people want this list to be? Because fine, I'll leave 
and let you enjoy yourselves. Me, I'm seriously considering starting 
up a mailing-list-futures list, just to create a forum where people 
can talk about where to go next, because frankly, we can't do it 
here, not with the way this list deals with issues. I've tried a 
couple of times, and it always gets buried in the noise from the 
troll, and all I ever seem to hear is why whatever it is is a bad 
idea -- not how to improve it, fix it, or make it better.

Whither list-managers?

Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (
Apple Mail List Gnome (

Dogs see you as family
Cats see you as staff

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