At 05:16 PM 11/21/99 -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote:
>> That is something of a non sequitur. What I am saying is that the ability
>> to provide service, PER USER, should not degrade as an ISP grows,
>Which is like saying that, on a per-user basis, a McDonalds should
>have the same caliber service as that 10 seat restaurant down on the
>wharf. Nice in theory, but reality doesn't scale, Tom. It really
BS. It is more like saying that, no matter how many more restaurants
McDonalds adds, you should still expect them to serve a burger, and not to
claim, "We can't get you your burger today becaus we are the biggest chain
in the world and it is too hard to ship burgers to all of our restaurants
>> We all find fascination where we can.
>Yeah, we sure do.
>On the other hand, it brings up a fascinating question. What is
>I don't ask that lightly, either, but to be honest, I view
>list-managers as a place where, hopefully, people who actually do
>this stuff can compare notes, get advice, and get some advance
>group-think/group-warning on emerging technologies and trends.
And not as a place where people who are running lists today can ask
questions about their problems today?
Someone who was running a list had a particular problem. Other people who
had been running lists for a while (I'm one of those people) noted that
this was a common problem. This digressed into a discussion of what to do
about it. Note that the original person got the help that they needed.
I see this as the most common activity here. Problem solving for today's
>But it's not. Mostly, it's Ronald, a self-admitted non-list-manager,
>trolling the list to tell us why were all idiots and doing it wrong,
>people like Nick, who only seems ot show up to browbeat AOL, and a
>few others who primarily seem to view list-managers as a place to
>complain aobut what everyone else is doing wrong, but never offer
>solutions or alternatives, and others who feel that if it was good
>enough in 1985, it's great now (Hi, Rich! grin).
Here is a list of my posts since I've joined list-manglers:
My first post to list managers was to offer a solution to mime, demime. xxx
Mail problems about specific ISPs other than AOL: x
Users on digest: x
Subject tags: xxx
Majordomo filters for jokes: x
Sendmail mail delivery: x
Commercial mailing lists run without confirmation: x
Quoted printable rules: x
Problems delivering mail to Juno: x
iname.com and verp: xxx
IMRSS and spam: x
Automatic confirmations and how to get rid of them: x
A suggestion on how to implement probationary periods: x
Verp in general: x
Postfix and Majordomo and approved messages: x
Uselessness of registering lists by sender address: x
Why interpreted perl was not the performance issue some said it was: xx
Signing up for a lot of lists: x
Majodomo modifications: x
AOL dropping mail: x
AOL dropping mail redux: xxxxxxxxxx
In other words, your attack on me is simply as wrong as your perception of
AOL. I've offered a lot of suggestions and solutions. I've been running
non-IP based mailing lists (frequently internally in IBM) since the mid
80's. I don't show up just to attack you or AOL. It is just that you are
wrong so often. :-)
>I've been getting pretty ruthless on which lists I stay on, because I
>simply don't have the time. And list-managers has been on the bubble
>for a good year now. I can't remember the last time I got useful
>information off of it, but I stay around because I keep hoping, and
>because I think maybe I can help someone else once in a while. But
>usually, all that does is get me yelled at by Ronald or Nick or Rich
>again, since, god forbid, I don't always toe the party line. n
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, Chuq. I don't always
toe the party line either. But you are mistaking attacks on you for
attacks on your ideas. When you can no longer tell the difference, it *is*
time for you to leave the list, either to find greener pastures personally
to take a break.
But it is odd that you stay here to help people, while your perception of
the list does not include helping people.
>So why am I here? Answer: I dunno. But the bigger question is -- why
>is list-managers here? Because it seems it simply isn't used unless
>someone wants to complain about what someone else is doing.
Given that the above is a record of the conversations I've participated in,
I see this list as most valuable than most for the purpose of discussing
alternative list managers, talking about problems that various ISPs are
having, and so forth.
But the reality is that people mostly post here when they have problems.
The list software is pretty stable these days. Most of it has been around
for quite a while. So problems are caused by someone who either is having
a transient problem or breaks the rules.
>Is that what people want this list to be? Because fine, I'll leave
>and let you enjoy yourselves. Me, I'm seriously considering starting
>up a mailing-list-futures list, just to create a forum where people
>can talk about where to go next, because frankly, we can't do it
>here, not with the way this list deals with issues. I've tried a
>couple of times, and it always gets buried in the noise from the
>troll, and all I ever seem to hear is why whatever it is is a bad
>idea -- not how to improve it, fix it, or make it better.
Chuq, if you want this sort of list, make sure only to invite people who
agree with you. I've tried to read your paragraph above more than once and
it comes down to, "People don't agree with me here." If you start your new
mailing list, and people don't reach consensus (agreeing with you, that is)
there either, what will you do?
The other point is that you run really large mailing lists, and are
interested in large mailing list architecture. I'm not that interested in
that sort of thing, although I'm mulling over seeing if I can use the ten
hours a week I can concentrate to try to do something that is lighter
weight than what MJ2 looks to be coming up as, and the more I look at it,
the more a lightweight non-transactional free SQL engine like MySQL looks
like it might be appropriate for this activity, and the more a direct tie
in to something like postfix (with world writable queueing directories) for
delivery looks to be a good idea. I'm not sure how many other people are
interested in really large mailing list architecture. Maybe this is not
the right mailing list for you anymore. That is only a decision you can
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