Great Circle Associates List-Managers
(November 1999)

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Subject: Re: What is list-managers? (was Re: AOL dropping mail
From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg @ monkeys . com>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:04:44 -0800
To: List-Managers @ GreatCircle . COM
In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:49:43 -0800. <>

In message <>, 
Chuq Von Rospach <> wrote:

>At 12:25 PM -0800 11/22/99, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:
>> Ah... excuse me Chuq, but if you can make an effort to try to see past
>> your personal animosity ...
>Sorry, Ronald. But the various discussions we've had in the past in 
>public and private have made that impossible. While I personally 
>don't believe in keeping grudges and in trying to leave personalities 
>out of the discussions, but you've badgered and attacked me enough 
>times that you've joined the small list of people for whom I'll make 
>an exception of my no-grudge rule.

Well, you get full points for honesty anyway.

And like everyone, you're entitled to your grudges.  I just happen to
think that List-Managers is not really the best place for venting them.

>> This is obviously a reasonable topic for discussion among mailing
>> administrators (who have a legitimate concern about this) and thus,
>> a reasonable topic for discussion here on List-Managers.
>Yes, and it was immediately bludgeoned into uselessness by a couple 
>of people who took advantage of the discussion to (once again) get up 
>on their bully pulpit, and (once again) tell us how AOL sucks.

I agree that those postings contained, by and large, more heat than light,
but again, if you'll just look past your personal animosity for a moment,
you may notice that *I* was certainly NOT among the ``couple of people''
who were ranting about how AOL sucks.

Rather, I am among the people who recognize that they (AOL) have a problem,
i.e. trying to stop spam while NOT improperly throwing overboard any
mail from legitimate opt-in mailing lists, and that this is a problem
which a LOT of people... including many on this list... have in common
with them (AOL).

I tried my best to turn what did indeed start out as a pure rant against
AOL (by one or two other people) into a reasonable discussion about this
widespread and common problem and about how we might all work together to
solve it.  I'm sorry if my meager effort to derive something fruitful
from the initial AOL diatribe offended you, but a couple of us, at least
were indeed having an interesting discussion about the challenging problem
of separating opt-in mailing list traffic from opt-out mailing list traffic.

>Tell me, what did all of the screaming and whining and bitching about AOL 
>do to actually solve anything?


I am in complete agreement with you that venomous distribes about AOL are
not fruitful, and if you look back just a day or two in the archives for
this list, you may notice that I even said exactly that.

>All it did was make most of us just 
>leave the discussion out of disgust.

Well, but you see, you _didn't_ actually leave.  You _could_ have just
waited quietly for the AOL ranting to subside... as it would inevitably
do if no one paid any attention to it... but instead you saw fit to
launch your own equally off-topic counter-rant about which specific
List-Managers members annoy you.

OK, so now everybody knows which specific members of List-Managers annoy

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