Great Circle Associates List-Managers
(March 2000)
 

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Subject: Re: Unauthorized archiving and presentation of mailing list byremarq
From: Tim Wentz <twentz @ mc . net>
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 19:53:31 -0600
To: Rich Kulawiec <rsk @ gsp . org>, list-managers @ GreatCircle . COM
In-reply-to: <20000309140210.A13152@gsp.org>
References: <20000309075412.A9102@gsp.org><Pine.BSI.3.91.1000309103114.18182T-100000@ivan.iecc.com><20000309140210.A13152@gsp.org>

Hello,

I'm new to the list-managers list, but I can tell you what our list 
went through a few weeks ago.

Our list was alerted to remarq's tactics a few weeks ago when one of 
our subscribers found a new message board on remarq that delivered 
the same messages she was getting from our list.

What we found was: whenever anyone subscribes to remarq's "message 
board" for your list, their system sends a subscribe command to your 
list. All of the messages are archived from the moment the first 
remarq subscription comes through and they maintain a subscriber list 
gleaned from the posts.

 From the moment we realized what was happening we locked down our 
list, changing the config files to require admin approval of 
subscribe requests so that we could prevent remarq from receiving any 
more posts.

My wife sent a list of complaints to remarq's support staff and they 
removed the archives and our mailing list from their site within 24 - 
36 hours.

Once we were off remarq's site, we went back to normal operations.

Tim Wentz
twentz@mc.net


Here's what was sent to remarq.

>Your company has chosen to advertise and make available to your
>subscribers the Unschooling List.  While I appreciate the additional
>publicity for my list, you should be aware that you are violating
>several of the Unschooling Lists written policies by doing so.  Please
>discontinue this practice immediately by removing all archives from any
>records you may have, destroying the list of names and addresses of
>subscribers you have collected and removing our name from your boards.
>
>My list of complaints to date is as follows:
>
>remarq has chosen to archive our list against our written policy, and
>make it available and even cross reference my list with many other
>lists.  We have a strong 'no archives' policy in place and have for 5
>years.  This is completely and totally unacceptable.  Allowing our
>illegal collected archives and cross posting them to subscribers of
>other lists is not only a massive invasion of privacy - but also
>highly  illegal as we have young children disccussing personal matters
>here and you are not only allowing access by the general public but
>displaying their private e-mail addresses too.
>
>remarq jeopardizes our privacy by making a list of all active list
>members available to anyone who joins the list, including
>spammers who may join for 5 minutes and then leave  This violate
>written policy in my Welcome Message and in my own config files.
>
>remarq subscribers have access to other people's private ADMIN
>reminders, messages, even unsubscribed people's requests to be
>subscribed!  I can't privately communicate or scold one remarq
>subscriber without all the others knowing.
>
>remarq does not allow me to communicate with a person wanting to join
>our community until after they are allowed in.  I, as a list
>owner,  need to be able to be sure all applicants are aware of our
>purposeand our rules.  As we have children on our list, their security
>and privacy are of the utmost imporatnce to me.
>
>remarq s*ubscribers don't get the lists Welcome Message when they join,
>so they are unaware of our posting guidellines.
>
>remarq s*ubscribers seem to have between 5-10% of their daily mail
>bounced back to me as undeliverable (*very* poor service!)
>
>remarq didn't have the common courtesy to ask the list owners about our
>being included in their 'service' - or to disclose their policies,
>they just snatched us up  Rather than being polite and letting a list
>'opt-in' you are insisting that a list 'opt-out' after the damage to
>privacy has already been done.
>
>remarq's privacy disclosure statement basically says you shouldn't
>expect  privacy on the internet and that it isn't their problem to
>provide it.  Well sirs, I assure you we had at least some privacy before
>you began archiving and cross posting my list in a public forum.
>
>
>I have required all new subscriptions to be approved, and unsubbed all
>existing remarq subscribers.  Of course, as they have not unsubbed from
>remarq, they still have unlimited access to not only the illegally
>collected UL archives, but also the illegally collected address book.
>
>Again, I am requesting that all posts, all records and all mention of
>the Unschooling List please be immediately removed from your site and
>all affiliated sites.
>
>I expect written confirmation of my request by the close of business
>Tuesday, Feb. 22, 2000.



Follow-Ups:
References:
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From: Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org>
Next: Re: Unauthorized archiving and presentation of mailing list byremarq
From: Tim Wentz <twentz@mc.net>
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From: Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org>
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From: David Shaw <dshaw@jabberwocky.com>

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