On 2/7/01 5:56 AM, "Amy Stinson" <email@example.com> wrote:
> Why is it so dead here? Aren't there MORE lists now? You'd think
> this place would be pretty busy.
It's dead for lots of reasons. Here's my take on things...
First, the list has been on auto-pilot for basically forever. There's very
little management, and as far as I can tell, no marketing or any attempt to
make the list known to the outside world -- so while there are zillions of
new lists and list managers out there, why should they know of the existance
of the list and why should they come here instead of other resources that
ARE attempting to attract their attention?
Unless you hear about list-managers by word of mouth, you don't hear about
it. And even if you do, why should someone who doesn't already know the list
come to it? It's basically a ghost list -- the net grew up, and the list
just hung out in an eddy and got left behind.
Second -- the list isn't terribly open to newcomers. I've seen a good number
of people come around this place to ask for help and get variations of the
"what a stupid question, why are you wasting our time?" response. A great
introduction to new users looking for places that are resources as they
learn this stuff.
Third -- this list isn't a good place to be unless you stick to what certain
members consider appropriate attitudes and policies. Anything they consider
inappropriate gets badgered and bludgeoned into oblivion, which makes it
very hard to discuss emerging issues and practices, unless they happen to
match their view of how stuff ought to be run.
This place is a ghost town -- it's sitting here, slowly rotting in the
deserve, because nobody manages it, nobody's attempted to make it a place
people want to be, nobody's attempted to make it a place people CAN find,
and if they do happen to find it, they'll as likely be greeted with silence
or a rude attack as actually have their questions answered. There's no fresh
blood, no new ideas, and no tolerance of either. So it's the same 12 old
pharts (myself included) who occasionally wake up from the mid-afternoon nap
to re-enact last Tuesday's argument again. Except I gave up and just don't
bother any more, since I have arguments on both sides memorized, so I don't
need to actually have the argument any more...
On 2/7/01 8:25 AM, "J C Lawrence" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
> time the average level of clue among list moderators has not only
> fallen severely over recent years, but the awareness that they need
> clue has dropped as well. Not only in the dark, but blind.
And who's taken a lead to teach these people how to be admins? And if
nobody's setting up systems to teach them and convincing them that it's in
their best interest to learn -- why should they? This place is the hermit on
the mountain, somehow expecting everyone down in the valley to know to come
up here for instruction, but nobody's gone down into the valley in so long
the villages don't even hear rumors of the hermits any more...
> Why so much pessimism about new and unskilled list admins? We
> all had to learn the ropes once. I don't begrudge anyone who's
> willing to try... I've helped start about a half dozen spin-offs
> from one list that I run. In my humble opinion, small specialty
> topics are one of the things mailing lists handle very well.
Way to go, Murr. (and while Murr and I don't agree on a lot, I'm saying that
in all sincerity). I try to do the same. I'd like to do more, and if I ever
have free time again, I will (I have things I want to do along this line,
since it's clear list-managers never will -- but I've also realized doing it
badly is worse than doing nothing at all, so it's on hold until I have the
time and resources to do something I won't be embarrassed by).
I really wish list-managers was an active, vibrant group, taking new admins
by the hand, leading by example, and blazing new trails as the whole e-mail
universe morphs around us. But this list hasn't shown any interest in new
techniques or technologies, hasn't shown any tolerance of newbies, and isn't
really interested in doing much of anything -- which is fine. I'm not saying
it should be different than it is. But it's too bad that, given the
knowledgebase of people here, we aren't more actively attempting to
evangelize "how it ought to be" to those that are receptive to learning.
Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome <http://www.chuqui.com>
[<email@example.com> = <firstname.lastname@example.org> = <email@example.com>]
Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you.
Love is the process of my leading you gently back to yourself.
- Saint Exupery