From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 1 00:14:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA25041; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA25025 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id CAA26507 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 02:08:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807010708.CAA26507@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> Received: from nbw-nj9-25.ix.netcom.com(198.211.225.153) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma026489; Wed Jul 1 02:07:52 1998 X-Sender: hot2trot@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 02:57:46 -0400 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: hot2trot@bigfoot.com (Burt Juda) Subject: Re: Refusing .forward? In-Reply-To: References: <199806301858.NAA17876@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:02 PM 6/30/98 -0400, Rich Pieri wrote: >Leslie Mikesell writes: >> This may be uncommon but it's 2 out of 2 of the addresses I use but don't >> control. > >A myth. The originator of a message *ALWAYS* controls his identity. >That is as much of a hint as I will give. Not when it's being re-written by a sendmail along the way (as in forced "site-hiding"). That's where we get into the "user@dom.ain != user@site.dom.ain" problems. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 1 00:20:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA25042; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA25026 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id CAA26509 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 02:08:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807010708.CAA26509@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> Received: from nbw-nj9-25.ix.netcom.com(198.211.225.153) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma026489; Wed Jul 1 02:07:54 1998 X-Sender: hot2trot@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 03:03:10 -0400 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: hot2trot@bigfoot.com (Burt Juda) Subject: Re: Refusing .forward? In-Reply-To: References: <199806302137.QAA22697@Venus.mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 06:05 PM 6/30/98 -0400, Rich Pieri wrote: >Leslie Mikesell writes: >> It is a pretty common configuration for sendmail to masquarade >> all the machines in a domain as just the domain name and have >> it rewrite everything in its cw list as the masquaraded name. > >Yep, and if a site starts doing that, they should inform people of the >change and the possible problems that might arise, so that they can be >dealt with before they become a problem. You're ASSuming that everyone at a domain has your technical skills *and* has access to the sendmail.cf at all machines in the path of their E-mail. There's NO way that a site's administrator can know what addresses EVERYONE in their domain is subscribed to on every list they all receive. Be realistic!!!! From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 1 00:44:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA25721; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA25714 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA23848; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 03:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA28835; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 03:32:59 -0400 Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 03:32:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeffrey Kaplan To: Majordomo Users Subject: Re: Newbie questions In-Reply-To: <19980630220926.G26267@smoe.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Jeff Wasilko wrote: ; > In order to pipe, you have to do the maintenance on the server, not ; > remotely. ; ; You can use approve on any system that has perl on it, anywhere. ; No, I'll admit that probably restricts you to unix or linux ; boxes, but I have list owners managing lists at many different ; ISPs. But isn't the end result in this case the same? Running the approve script on/from a Win95 machine with Eudora as the mail client? -- Jeffrey Kaplan <*> I'm set up for PGP. Are you? jkapllan@world.std.com <*> There is only one "l" in my name. There is no need to copy to me via email a newsgroup follow-up. The World does not necessarily agree with my opinions. "There is a sense that we are lost, adrift. In the streets, in the temples, you can hear it in their voices, their manner: an anger just beneath the surface, a growing dissatisfaction, a self-involvement above the needs of others." (Draal, B5 "A Voice In The Wilderness I") From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 1 07:00:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA02327; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 06:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA02320 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 06:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA22147 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:51:28 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Reply-To Problem References: <35a59609.22918736@smtp.netwrx1.net> <359d2e28.2033653@smtp.netwrx1.net> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 01 Jul 1998 09:51:28 -0400 In-Reply-To: georgek@netwrx1.com's message of "Tue, 30 Jun 1998 18:28:34 GMT" Message-ID: Lines: 27 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- George R Kasica writes: > More information rather than a 2 line quickie answer is needed here > for me to figure this one out. I've used md for about 4 years and have > never seen this type of problem. Lotus cc:Mail is infamous for doing crap like this. So are a number of other broken mail gateways. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNZo+3p6VRH7BJMxHAQF9XgP/ST3M6k2pPl9jnSZEeFrK1MBnLsrQrEtW SM5iBO+N/9/jXiCO8ZK2ufM9EVVTTdCi6oObhsJhrNIhuhaxJrlcrvf3cTs/CjH0 E9kx3Jt1hr1LK7zNHFUwByO/KV4OSHxtRnp5Bq5WeBIkr00ir7h0F3Q7RFQjmDLM qm17uZ23qRE= =a9OK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / When not in use, Happy Fun Ball Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / should be returned to its special Prescient Technologies, Inc. / container and kept under I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / refrigeration. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 1 07:16:46 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA02302; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 06:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA02295 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 06:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA22117 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:50:04 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Refusing .forward? References: <199806302137.QAA22697@Venus.mcs.net> <199807010708.CAA26509@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 01 Jul 1998 09:50:05 -0400 In-Reply-To: hot2trot@bigfoot.com's message of "Wed, 01 Jul 1998 03:03:10 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 29 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Burt Juda writes: > You're ASSuming that everyone at a domain has your technical skills *and* > has access to the sendmail.cf at all machines in the path of their > E-mail. No, I'm stating outright that the admins should say, look, things are changing. This is how to deal with it. Do it now. If they don't, they get to deal with the technical issues. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNZo+i56VRH7BJMxHAQEuIQP/VhfE9836OA7UdRd13Vv3lQa0Pq5TgJcK fQO0/A4Y85oxFACKTRx61YWECiIIGkt46fE+WDzIM1m+jhYOJCbsVXNjNe5uORZk dc1x3FRCYw//UI3lM4zv+0cedv1SegeeHR+T2PQnzVAWBc3GllGsRL5F/vGXj5Bk Hlaqx5caF0c= =Yv4m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Caution: Happy Fun Ball may Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / suddenly accelerate to dangerous Prescient Technologies, Inc. / speeds. I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 1 08:44:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA03921; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fenchurch.k2net.co.uk (fenchurch.k2net.co.uk [194.164.132.86]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA03913 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from catherine.k2net.co.uk (andy@catherine.k2net.co.uk [194.164.132.90]) by fenchurch.k2net.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA10839 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:41:44 +0100 (BST) Received: (from andy@localhost) by catherine.k2net.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07168 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:42:21 +0100 (BST) From: Andy Kirkham Message-Id: <199807011542.QAA07168@catherine.k2net.co.uk> Subject: Install problem To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:42:21 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all OK, so I'm new to majordomo and this list has prob seen this Q a thousand times but I haven't found anything in the archive so here goes. I have installed majordomo and gone thru the INSTALL. However, my sendmail (8.8.8) doesn't like the aliases.majordomo file. The error message is:- sendmail[pid]: NOQUEUE: SYSERR(root): hash map "Alias1": unsafe map file /usr/local/majordomo/aliases.majordomo: No such file or directory Any ideas anyone? Andy From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 1 09:30:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA04590; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fenchurch.k2net.co.uk (fenchurch.k2net.co.uk [194.164.132.86]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA04583 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from catherine.k2net.co.uk (andy@catherine.k2net.co.uk [194.164.132.90]) by fenchurch.k2net.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10976; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:32:18 +0100 (BST) Received: (from andy@localhost) by catherine.k2net.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07297; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:32:57 +0100 (BST) From: Andy Kirkham Message-Id: <199807011632.RAA07297@catherine.k2net.co.uk> Subject: Re: Install problem In-Reply-To: <359A621A.21CF613@elecomm.net> from Francesco Fortugno at "Jul 1, 98 12:21:46 pm" To: fortugno@elecomm.net (Francesco Fortugno) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:32:57 +0100 (BST) Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > sendmail[pid]: NOQUEUE: SYSERR(root): hash map "Alias1": unsafe map file > > /usr/local/majordomo/aliases.majordomo: No such file or directory > > Hi, > I had the same error, you will need to place that alias file somewhere > more secure like the /etc dir on your mail server. > it helped for me. Works ok after doing this! thanks. Andy > From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 1 09:44:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA04631; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA04624 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) id KAA13334; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:31:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19980701103112.A12646@swcp.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:31:12 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble To: Majordomo Users Subject: Re: Newbie questions Mail-Followup-To: Majordomo Users References: <19980630220926.G26267@smoe.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jeffrey Kaplan on Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 03:32:59AM -0400 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 03:32:59AM -0400, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote: >> You can use approve on any system that has perl on it, anywhere. >> No, I'll admit that probably restricts you to unix or linux >> boxes, but I have list owners managing lists at many different >> ISPs. > > But isn't the end result in this case the same? Running the approve > script on/from a Win95 machine with Eudora as the mail client? If you're aware of some way to set up perl and Eudora on a Windows box that allows you to successfully approve messages with the "approve" script, please explain further -- this'd make a great addition to the FAQ. I have yet to run across a Windows email client that understands the concept of piping (although I have to admit I ain't looking too damned hard :-). -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 1 09:51:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA04562; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fenchurch.k2net.co.uk (fenchurch.k2net.co.uk [194.164.132.86]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA04555 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from catherine.k2net.co.uk (andy@catherine.k2net.co.uk [194.164.132.90]) by fenchurch.k2net.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10960; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:26:52 +0100 (BST) Received: (from andy@localhost) by catherine.k2net.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07282; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:27:29 +0100 (BST) From: Andy Kirkham Message-Id: <199807011627.RAA07282@catherine.k2net.co.uk> Subject: Re: Install problem In-Reply-To: from Kiyoshi Ueda at "Jul 1, 98 11:16:32 am" To: kiyoshi@batman.teqcorp.com.mx (Kiyoshi Ueda) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:27:29 +0100 (BST) Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Andy Kirkham wrote: > > > Hi all > > > > OK, so I'm new to majordomo and this list has prob seen this Q a > > thousand times but I haven't found anything in the archive so here > > goes. > > > > I have installed majordomo and gone thru the INSTALL. However, my > > sendmail (8.8.8) doesn't like the aliases.majordomo file. The error > > message is:- > > > > sendmail[pid]: NOQUEUE: SYSERR(root): hash map "Alias1": unsafe map file > > /usr/local/majordomo/aliases.majordomo: No such file or directory > > > > Any ideas anyone? > > i think, if you didn-t make any modifications.. the file you are looking > for is majordomo.aliases > :) > A. Kiyoshi Ueda I. The INSTALL file refers to majordomo.aliases but the "out of the box" unpacked file has the name aliases.majordomo More info:- I got this version from the FreeBSD ports collection and am running FreeBSD 2.2.6 stable > > From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 1 12:30:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA06881; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post-relay2.inet.tele.dk (post-relay2.inet.tele.dk [195.41.33.168]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA06872 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16088 invoked by uid 0); 1 Jul 1998 19:29:13 -0000 Received: from post6.tele.dk (194.239.134.169) by post-relay2.inet.tele.dk with SMTP; 1 Jul 1998 19:29:13 -0000 Received: from bc.telia.com ([195.249.115.114]) by post6.tele.dk (Netscape Mail Server v) with SMTP id AAA39514 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:29:12 +0200 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980701212356.009112a4@euroteam.com> X-Sender: mailbox@euroteam.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 21:23:56 +0000 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Bo Christensen Subject: error on unzubscribing Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does someone have the answer to this report given by mj when unzubscribing via e-mail: MAJORDOMO ABORT (mj_majordomo)!! chown(0, 0, "/usr/local/majordomo/Lists/jcmail.new"): Operation not permitted TNX - Bo From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 1 13:15:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA07685; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alan.sjsu.edu (alan.sjsu.edu [130.65.122.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA07678 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (elrond@localhost) by alan.sjsu.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA02029; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:11:39 -0700 Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:11:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Carlos Araya To: Bo Christensen cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: error on unzubscribing In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980701212356.009112a4@euroteam.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I was having the same problem, check the owners of your file. The problem for me was that I compiled majordomo as root and then chowned most of the files to the user who will own/administer majordomo. hope it helps Carlos Araya elrond@alan.sjsu.edu http://alan.sjsu.edu/ faramir@well.com http://myron.sjsu.edu/carlos/index.html __ One Earth year, eleven months, one week and six hours can be an eternity if you allow it to be so. A day can be so. An hour. Dan Simmons - The rise of Endymion From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 1 15:29:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA09212; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sld.cu (mail.sld.cu [196.1.112.27]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA09198 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:19:38 -0700 (PDT) From: inter-l@cristal.hlg.sld.cu Received: (from daemon@localhost) by mail.sld.cu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA31247 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 18:18:48 -0400 Received: from UNKNOWN(196.1.112.18), claiming to be "infomed.sld.cu" via SMTP by mail.sld.cu, id smtpda31029; Wed Jul 1 18:10:11 1998 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by infomed.sld.cu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id SAA29591 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 18:05:58 -0400 Received: (from inter-l@localhost) by cristal.hlg.sld.cu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA06132 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 18:07:10 -0400 Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 18:07:10 -0400 Message-Id: <199807012207.SAA06132@cristal.hlg.sld.cu> To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: MhonArch & Wilma Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Netter! I am trying to install Wilma, but when I try to execute wilma_reindex the this programs are not found in my system: mhonarc and glimpseindex Somebody can tell me, where do I get these? I would appreciate the help Augusto Sao Aviles From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 1 17:31:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA11058; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fenchurch.k2net.co.uk (fenchurch.k2net.co.uk [194.164.132.86]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA11051 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from catherine.k2net.co.uk (andy@catherine.k2net.co.uk [194.164.132.90]) by fenchurch.k2net.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA12243 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:33:36 +0100 (BST) Received: (from andy@localhost) by catherine.k2net.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08399 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:34:17 +0100 (BST) From: Andy Kirkham Message-Id: <199807020034.BAA08399@catherine.k2net.co.uk> Subject: majordomo error To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:34:17 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all I have finally got most things working here except when I attempt to use the test-l list I get a fault returned. It appears to be in the majordomo perl script itself. Before I dive in has anyone seen this? ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo" (expanded from: ) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Number found where operator expected at /usr/local/majordomo/majordomo line 1976, near "Jul 01" (Do you need to predeclare Jul?) syntax error at /usr/local/majordomo/majordomo line 1976, near "Jul 01" Number found where operator expected at /usr/local/majordomo/majordomo line 1976, near "01 20" (Missing operator before 20?) Bareword found where operator expected at /usr/local/majordomo/majordomo line 1976, near "53 prefect" (Missing operator before prefect?) In string, @k2net now must be written as \@k2net at /usr/local/majordomo/majordomo line 1976, near "ak@k2net" Execution of /usr/local/majordomo/majordomo aborted due to compilation errors. 554 "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo"... unknown mailer error 2 Cheers Andy From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 2 05:15:52 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA20184; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 05:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA20176 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 05:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA16740; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:06:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807021206.IAA16740@cis.ohio-state.edu> To: Bo Christensen cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: error on unzubscribing In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Jul 1998 21:23:56 -0000." <1.5.4.32.19980701212356.009112a4@euroteam.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 08:05:42 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Does someone have the answer to this report given by mj when unzubscribing >via e-mail: > >MAJORDOMO ABORT (mj_majordomo)!! > >chown(0, 0, "/usr/local/majordomo/Lists/jcmail.new"): Operation not permitted Read the FAQ, question 2.2. --Dave From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 2 07:00:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA21234; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fenchurch.k2net.co.uk (fenchurch.k2net.co.uk [194.164.132.86]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA21225 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from catherine.k2net.co.uk (andy@catherine.k2net.co.uk [194.164.132.90]) by fenchurch.k2net.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14008 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:56:00 +0100 (BST) Received: (from andy@localhost) by catherine.k2net.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09845 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:56:46 +0100 (BST) From: Andy Kirkham Message-Id: <199807021356.OAA09845@catherine.k2net.co.uk> Subject: owner notification problem To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:56:45 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all Thanks for the previous help. All is nearly working but now I have another problem. When a user subscribes to the mailoing list they receive the "Majordomo results:" msg back to them along with the auth message. Why is that going back to them instead of the list owner? Cheers Andy From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 2 10:59:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA23847; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.ujsierra.mx (dns.ujsierra.mx [206.48.8.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA23840 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (amontiel@localhost) by www.ujsierra.mx (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06638 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:57:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:57:02 -0500 (CDT) From: "Armando Montiel Caba (NetAdmin)" To: "Majordomo Users List at GreatCircle.COM" Subject: resend problems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have the next problem: I'm generating lists with digest but the entries in aliases allow only archive the mail but not send copies to members or sender. I have the next aliases entries: masters: "|/usr/lib/majordomo/wrapper resend -l masters -h monitor.ujsierra.mx masters-outg$ masters-digest: masters masters-outgoing: :include:/var/lib/majordomo/lists/masters, "|/usr/lib/majordomo/wrapper digest -r -C -l masters-digest masters-digest-outgoing", "|/usr/lib/majordomo/wrapper archive2.pl -a -m -f /var/lib/majordomo/archives/masters/mast$ masters-digest-outgoing: :include:/var/lib/majordomo/lists/masters-digest owner-masters: amontiel, owner-masters-outgoing: owner-masters owner-masters-digest: owner-masters owner-masters-digest-outgoing: owner-masters masters-request: "|/usr/lib/majordomo/wrapper majordomo -l masters" masters-digest-request: "|/usr/lib/majordomo/wrapper majordomo -l masters-digest" masters-approval: amontiel, masters-digest-approval: masters-approval Armando Montiel Caba mailto:amontiel@www.ujsierra.mx http://www.ujsierra.mx/~amontiel Tel: (525) 752-14-44 Beeper (525) 629-98-00 Clave 152906 Universidad Justo Sierra Otro Pleonasmo: "Ha Ocurrido un Error en Windows" From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 2 11:14:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA24063; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsulaw.gsu.edu (gsulaw.Gsu.EDU [131.96.159.141]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA24056 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (lawppw@localhost) by gsulaw.gsu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA32682; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:03:23 -0400 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:03:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Patrick Wiseman To: Andy Kirkham cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: owner notification problem In-Reply-To: <199807021356.OAA09845@catherine.k2net.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2 Jul 1998, Andy Kirkham wrote: :All is nearly working but now I have another problem. :When a user zubscribes to the mailoing list they receive :the "Majordomo results:" msg back to them along with the :auth message. Why is that going back to them instead of :the list owner? Whenever a user sends a command to majordomo, majordomo returns the results (usually "succeeded"). The list owner will also get a message to the effect that so-and-so has zubscribed to the list. The behavior you describe is as expected. Patrick From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 2 12:48:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA25184; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us (cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us [147.144.1.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA25176 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jjah@localhost) by cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA19299 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:32:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joe R. Jah" To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Unofficial Majordomo patches and contrib site Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, A clarification note: Our server has gone behind a firewall and the high number port, >1024, connections to the server are blocked. Web browsers connect to FTP sites via "passive FTP" through high number ports.; therefore, if you are navigating with a web browser you won't be able to connect to the old URLs; please use the following URLs: http://sol.ccsf.cc.ca.us/ftp/majordomo-patches/ http://sol.ccsf.cc.ca.us/ftp/majordomo-contrib/ However, if you use a "regular" FTP client use the old, unchanged, URLs: ftp://sol.ccsf.cc.ca.us/majordomo-patches/ ftp://sol.ccsf.cc.ca.us/majordomo-contrib/ Joe _/ _/_/_/ _/ ____________ __o _/ _/ _/ _/ ______________ _-\<,_ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ ......(_)/ (_) _/_/ oe _/ _/. _/_/ ah jjah@cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 2 13:59:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA26435; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk (euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk [138.250.48.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA26428 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from annex-1-pt7.ccc.cranfield.ac.uk ([138.250.1.230] helo=arpad.thegreen.private ident=cc047) by euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) id 0yrqLw-0001sQ-00; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:53:12 +0100 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:53:05 +0100 (BST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-Sender: cc047@arpad.thegreen.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: Jeff Wasilko cc: Jeffrey Kaplan , Romaine , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Newbie questions In-Reply-To: <19980630220926.G26267@smoe.org> Message-ID: Organization: Cranfield University Computer Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Jeff Wasilko wrote: > On Tue, Jun 30, 1998 at 09:41:14PM -0400, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote: > > ; BTW, I use Eudora Pro 4.0 for Windows. (Don't laugh at me.) I don't > > ; understand the Pipe stuff and the script. Sorry. > > > > In order to pipe, you have to do the maintenance on the server, not > > remotely. > > Jeff: > > That's not correct. > > You don't have to use the approve script on the same system that > the lists are hosted on (which is what you seem to be implying). Jeff is right, Jeff. The approve script generates an email message which it just sends to majordomo@whereerver, > You can use approve on any system that has perl on it, anywhere. > No, I'll admit that probably restricts you to unix or linux Yes and no. Perl appears to run reasonably well on 32bit Windows set-ups. But there are two issues. MS MUAs don't pipe (as far as I know) although NT does have real pipes, user applications don't generally know how to pipe. Second the approve script is fairly Unix specific. After all, it just passes the message it composes off to "/usr/lib/sendmail -t" > but I have list owners managing lists at many different ISPs. Jeff, I agree with your general point. I have list owners on VMS, all varieties of MS products and other OSs. If you can send standard Email, you can manage a list (this does appear to rule out users at some sites using Lotus Notes, but that is a different story.) > Jeff -jeff PS to Jeff and Jeff: My guess is that we are all the victim of parents who gave us one of the top 5 male names in the US between 1955-1965 (And yes I did just make that up, but I've heard something like it.) -- Jeffrey Goldberg +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826 Cranfield Computer Centre FAX 751 814 J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice. From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:00:44 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01764; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01752 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from galileu.oninet.es (galileu.oninet.es [195.77.138.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA04661 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from teix ([195.77.138.19]) by galileu.oninet.es (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA7668 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 18:36:12 +0100 Message-ID: <359A7288.5B58@oninet.es> Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 18:31:52 +0100 From: Martin Gomez Organization: ONICE S.L. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Problem Starting Majordomo-1.94.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk When i send an email appears next message Cannot open DBM database /disk3/majordomo-1.94.4/majordomo.aliases Some help much be appreciated -- From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:01:20 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01725; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01715 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.cs.tcd.ie (relay.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.32.56]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA03663 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs.tcd.ie (relay.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.32.56]) by relay.cs.tcd.ie (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02814 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:10:51 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199807011510.QAA02814@relay.cs.tcd.ie> To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: Maire.Jones@cs.tcd.ie Subject: majordomo-owner as list instead of an individual? Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 16:10:50 +0100 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is it possible to have several people on a mailing list to act as majordomo-owner instead of a single individual. We are running majordomo 1.94.4 with sendmail version 8.8.7 on a Sparcstation-4 running Solaris 2.6 -- , Maire Jones, e-mail: Maire.Jones@cs.tcd.ie ORI.G39, Computer Science Department, phone: +353-1-608-1695 Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland. fax: +353-1-677-2204 From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:08:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01840; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01830 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:40:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.jps.net (smtp1.jps.net [208.25.63.250]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA10200 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:46:21 -0700 (PDT) From: tangos@jps.net Received: from mami.jps.net (la-port828.jps.net [206.18.117.245]) by smtp1.jps.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA01653 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980701164452.00863c00@mail.jps.net> X-Sender: tangos@mail.jps.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 16:44:52 -0700 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: attachments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Please tell me how to send attachements through majordomo, I have search everywhere and I can see people asking the same question but I don't see the answers the received. When someone sends an attachement through our list it comes as ASSCI text. Please respond to tangos@jps.net Thanks. John Starling From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:09:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01541; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01531 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ceo.pcgaming.com (dialin856.toronto.globalserve.net [209.90.133.93]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA00849 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 02:36:40 -0700 (PDT) From: php3@ceo.pcgaming.com Received: from localhost (php3@localhost) by ceo.pcgaming.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id EAA02776 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:26:16 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:26:16 -0400 (EDT) To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Senders address Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a few mailing lists setup on one of our servers and recently a client asked us if there was a way to make the SENDERS address not equal to our machines name? For sample, he sent an email to newsletter@hisdomain.com to subscribe to the list named "newsletter". He got a response back from majordomo saying it worked, however the sender was majordomo@hangar18.digitalhome.com. It would be nice if that SENDER address was modifiable, any ideas? From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:15:29 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01528; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01520 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ceo.pcgaming.com (dialin856.toronto.globalserve.net [209.90.133.93]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA00858 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 02:37:19 -0700 (PDT) From: php3@hadez.dyn.ml.org Received: from localhost (php3@localhost) by ceo.pcgaming.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id EAA02782 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:27:33 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:27:19 -0400 (EDT) To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Senders address. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a few mailing lists setup on one of our servers and recently a client asked us if there was a way to make the SENDERS address not equal to our machines name? For sample, he sent an email to newsletter@hisdomain.com to subscribe to the list named "newsletter". He got a response back from majordomo saying it worked, however the sender was majordomo@hangar18.digitalhome.com. It would be nice if that SENDER address was modifiable, any ideas? From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:19:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01654; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01644 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ceo.pcgaming.com (dialin1928.toronto.globalserve.net [209.90.137.149]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA16347 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:10:54 -0700 (PDT) From: php3@hadez.dyn.ml.org Received: from localhost (php3@localhost) by ceo.pcgaming.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA03228 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:59:02 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:58:41 -0400 (EDT) To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Senders address. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a few mailing lists setup on one of our servers and recently a client asked us if there was a way to make the SENDERS address not equal to our machines name? For sample, he sent an email to newsletter@hisdomain.com to subscribe to the list named "newsletter". He got a response back from majordomo saying it worked, however the sender was majordomo@hangar18.digitalhome.com. It would be nice if that SENDER address was modifiable, any ideas? From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:20:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01827; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01817 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homer.libby.org (ns.libby.org [208.137.111.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA09285 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from B5100DPSCANLAN.MCFP.WAPA.GOV ([198.233.50.54]) by homer.libby.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29726 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:30:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807012230.QAA29726@homer.libby.org> X-Sender: patti@mail.libby.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 16:27:20 -0600 To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM From: Patti Scanlan Subject: Adding files to archive directory Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I would like to add text files to the archive directory so that subscribers can use the "get" command to retrieve them. Right now I can retreived archives of my digest, and of the messages sent to the list for the current month. Because the permissions to the archive directory are set to majordomo only, I can not FTP and place files there. Is there a command that I can use to send a file to that directory for access? Patti Scanlan From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:22:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01556; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01544 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from email1.uspnet.usp.br (email1.uspnet.usp.br [143.107.253.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id EAA04696 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6478 invoked by uid 99); 30 Jun 1998 11:56:26 -0000 Message-ID: <19980630115626.6477.qmail@email1.uspnet.usp.br> From: "Marcelo Junio Teixeira" To: avi@orion.svrec.ernet.in Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 08:56:25 EST Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Reply-To: "Marcelo Junio Teixeira" Subject: [Re:] problem setting up a list X-Mail-Gateway: SPIDER-CCE-USP Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On ( Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:20:55 +0530), avi@orion.svrec.ernet.in wrote: > >When I test majordomo by >"./wrapper config-test" , I do not get any errors. >but when I mail majordomo as some other normail user, i being the owner of the list, get this message.... > >------------- The following address has permanent fatal errors. ------------------ >"/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo" >(expanded from : < majordomo@orion.svrec.ernet.in>) > There must be a "|" before /usr/local... > >Why do I get this error and how do I correct it ? >Please reply me directly cause I am not subscribed to the list. > From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:27:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01641; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01633 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jag.mn.csoft.com (jaguar.mn.csoft.com [204.73.40.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA15956 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gremlin.mn.csoft.com by jag.mn.csoft.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30962; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:57:58 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980630145614.00903600@mail.mn.csoft.com> X-Sender: gerrys@mail.mn.csoft.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:56:14 -0500 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: Gerry Stanek Subject: File size? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there a limit on the size of an e-mail majordomo can send? I am having e-mails bounce stating that the file is >100000. How do I change this? Thanks ---------------------------------------------------------------- Gerry Stanek Control Software, Inc 4600 W. 77th Street, Suite 304 Edina, MN 55435 Voice:(612)831-2500 Fax:(612)831-8845 Web:www.csoft.com These are my opinions and not those of Control Software. I have a choice? NOT ---------------------------------------------------------------- From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:28:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01870; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01858 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA12447 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 19:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out-3.tiac.net (mail-out-3.tiac.net [199.0.65.15]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA25207 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 22:37:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ctneedle@tiac.net) Received: from tiac.net (p4.ts1.hartf.CT.tiac.com [207.60.201.5]) by mail-out-3.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11261 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 22:37:36 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ctneedle@tiac.net) Message-ID: <359AF245.9DA85D25@tiac.net> Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 22:36:53 -0400 From: Jodi Merusi Organization: Connecticut Needles X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Moving Majordomo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We have attempted to move majordomo to another machine. We are maintaining the same directory structure, basically only the node is changing. Not everything is working, I'd like to be more specific, but perhaps someone can tell me how to go about doing a majordomo move. From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:28:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01749; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01741 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from batman.teqcorp.com.mx (batman.teqcorp.com.mx [200.23.140.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA04472 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kiyoshi@localhost) by batman.teqcorp.com.mx (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA25184; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:16:33 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:16:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Kiyoshi Ueda To: Andy Kirkham cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Install problem In-Reply-To: <199807011542.QAA07168@catherine.k2net.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Andy Kirkham wrote: > Hi all > > OK, so I'm new to majordomo and this list has prob seen this Q a > thousand times but I haven't found anything in the archive so here > goes. > > I have installed majordomo and gone thru the INSTALL. However, my > sendmail (8.8.8) doesn't like the aliases.majordomo file. The error > message is:- > > sendmail[pid]: NOQUEUE: SYSERR(root): hash map "Alias1": unsafe map file > /usr/local/majordomo/aliases.majordomo: No such file or directory > > Any ideas anyone? i think, if you didn-t make any modifications.. the file you are looking for is majordomo.aliases :) A. Kiyoshi Ueda I. From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:34:31 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01695; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01687 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stmpy.cais.net (stmpy.cais.net [199.0.216.101]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA19699 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chele.cais.com (jas@chele.cais.com [199.0.216.212]) by stmpy.cais.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA15148; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:44:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:37:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jason K. Schechner" Reply-To: FiXXiT@off-road.com To: Maria das Graças Bruno Marietto cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: C Compiler and Majodormo In-Reply-To: <35992F80.1149AA9B@comp.ita.cta.br> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Maria das Gra=E7as Bruno Marietto wrote: > Collegues >=20 > Is it necessary to have a C compiler when running the Majodormo? =09No, not to run Majordomo, but you will need a compiler to install it. You could always compile the wrapper on another machine if necessary. -Jason ----- Jason K. Schechner - check out www.cauce.org and help ban spam-mail. =3DThe difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has bounds.= =3D ---There is no TRUTH. There is no REALITY. There is no CONSISTENCY.--- ---There are no ABSOLUTE STATEMENTS I'm very probably wrong.--- From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:35:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01791; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01783 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.neocomm.net (mail.neocomm.net [205.160.234.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA05833 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rfisher@localhost) by mail.neocomm.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) id NAA06185; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:33:51 -0400 Message-ID: <19980701133351.07671@mail.neocomm.net> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:33:51 -0400 From: "Robert G. Fisher" To: Andy Kirkham Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Install problem References: <199807011627.RAA07282@catherine.k2net.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1 In-Reply-To: <199807011627.RAA07282@catherine.k2net.co.uk>; from Andy Kirkham on Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 05:27:29PM +0100 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 05:27:29PM +0100, Andy Kirkham wrote: > > On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Andy Kirkham wrote: > > > sendmail[pid]: NOQUEUE: SYSERR(root): hash map "Alias1": unsafe map file > > > /usr/local/majordomo/aliases.majordomo: No such file or directory Another way to get around this is to use the command: makemap hash majordomo.aliases.db < majordomo.aliases Which will create the db file as used by 8.8 -- once this file is established, sendmail 8.8.0 no longer seems to care. -- Robert G. Fisher NEOCOM Microspecialists Inc. System Administrator/Programmer (540) 666-9533 x 116 From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:38:43 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01669; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01661 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA17346 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Venus.mcs.net (les@Venus.mcs.net [192.160.127.92]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id QAA18811; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:37:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from les@localhost) by Venus.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id QAA22697; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:37:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Leslie Mikesell Message-Id: <199806302137.QAA22697@Venus.mcs.net> Subject: Re: Refusing .forward? To: rich.pieri@prescienttech.com (Rich Pieri) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:37:12 -0500 (CDT) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Rich Pieri" at Jun 30, 98 03:02:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Rich Pieri: > > > This may be uncommon but it's 2 out of 2 of the addresses I use but don't > > control. > > A myth. The originator of a message *ALWAYS* controls his identity. Then the point of checking is only to make things difficult for the people who aren't forging messages??? > That is as much of a hint as I will give. It is a pretty common configuration for sendmail to masquarade all the machines in a domain as just the domain name and have it rewrite everything in its cw list as the masquaraded name. I can stick my own From: on a message, but chinet.chinet.com still goes out as chinet.com, or it did the last time I tried and according to the sendmail docs, it is supposed to. Les Mikesell les@mcs.com From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:40:29 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01780; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01770 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.96.87]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id KAA05671 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 98 13:10:00 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: Lazlo Nibble Subject: Re: Newbie questions Organization: SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9807011310.aa02801@fsm-1.fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Lazlo: >On Wed, Jul 01, 1998 at 03:32:59AM -0400, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote: > >>> You can use approve on any system that has perl on it, anywhere. >>> No, I'll admit that probably restricts you to unix or linux >>> boxes, but I have list owners managing lists at many different >>> ISPs. >> >> But isn't the end result in this case the same? Running the approve >> script on/from a Win95 machine with Eudora as the mail client? > >If you're aware of some way to set up perl and Eudora on a Windows box that >allows you to successfully approve messages with the "approve" script, please >explain further -- this'd make a great addition to the FAQ. I have yet to run >across a Windows email client that understands the concept of piping (although >I have to admit I ain't looking too damned hard :-). Actually (getting a bit off-topic here), the real solution is for someone to write a Eudora plug-in that enables one to do approvals. For MacOS and Wintel, please! Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:41:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01571; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01561 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA07695 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 07:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA24179 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:30:54 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: removing sender and precedence from moderate list References: <35931DB8.1B703E96@elecomm.net> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 30 Jun 1998 10:30:54 -0400 In-Reply-To: Francesco Fortugno's message of "Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:04:08 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 25 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Francesco Fortugno writes: > does anyone know if it's possible to remove the 2 lines "Sender and > Precedence" from the email sent to a moderate list? Do not remove Sender. RFC 822 requires it to be there. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNZj2nZ6VRH7BJMxHAQGw3gQAihwN8quw+ymrWh5SEjQdaK/VReVK8AGS 6F4Uad7+U6b8cinCkL0iIADOY3F5v1e0pP9tlhxNNl0yPJC9PiePAuxXW5IN3reb RuoAuG+az2GKGXCtr83Z6cL+g515vU4dtXepMnAZUVdpqHSSoVROcrGpkqxGzoek W9Z+igqyZAg= =i8mM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Do not use Happy Fun Ball on Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / concrete. Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:44:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA04510; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk (euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk [138.250.48.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA04501 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from annex-1-pt5.ccc.cranfield.ac.uk ([138.250.1.228] helo=arpad.thegreen.private ident=cc047) by euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) id 0ys09v-0005er-00; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 08:21:28 +0100 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 08:21:25 +0100 (BST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-Sender: cc047@arpad.thegreen.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: Maire.Jones@cs.tcd.ie cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: majordomo-owner as list instead of an individual? In-Reply-To: <199807011510.QAA02814@relay.cs.tcd.ie> Message-ID: Organization: Cranfield University Computer Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 1 Jul 1998 Maire.Jones@cs.tcd.ie wrote: > Is it possible to have several people on a mailing list to act as > majordomo-owner instead of a single individual. I do it all the time. In your aliases file just set majordomo-owner: user1@domain1.something, user2@domain2.somethingelse You can also do the same for list owners. Instead of adding the addresses to the aliases file (which is what I do), you can even set-up the owner lists as unadvertised majordomo lists. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826 Cranfield Computer Centre FAX 751 814 J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice. From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:47:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01604; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01594 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scdjann.iserver.net (scdjann.iserver.net [192.41.14.209]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA15337 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Gizmo ([130.77.17.135]) by scdjann.iserver.net (8.8.5) id NAA25413; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:25:16 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: scdjann.iserver.net: Host [130.77.17.135] claimed to be Gizmo Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:26:12 -0700 Message-ID: <01BDA422.44D958E0.jann@jann.com> From: Jann Linder To: "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" Subject: alternative to lwgate for web browsing/searching archives? Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:26:11 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just switched hosting services for my domain and do not wish to use lwgate anymore for searching and browsing of the archives. Anyone know any better scripts for this purpose? Jann Jann Linder Web Developer/CH2M Hill - SFO jann@jann.com Home Page: http://www.jann.com/ CalendarPlus Web Site: http://www.calendarplus.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ American business long ago gave up on demanding that prospective employees be honest and hardworking. It has even stopped hoping for employees who are educated enough that they can tell the difference between the men's room and the women's room without having little pictures on the doors. -- Dave Barry, "Urine Trouble, Mister" From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:47:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01738; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01728 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA03883 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jupiter.Mcs.Net (les@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id KAA25193; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:32:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from les@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id KAA04173; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:32:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Leslie Mikesell Message-Id: <199807011532.KAA04173@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Re: Refusing .forward? To: rich.pieri@prescienttech.com (Rich Pieri) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:32:57 -0500 (CDT) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Rich Pieri" at Jul 1, 98 09:50:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Rich Pieri: > > > You're ASSuming that everyone at a domain has your technical skills *and* > > has access to the sendmail.cf at all machines in the path of their > > E-mail. > > No, I'm stating outright that the admins should say, look, things are > changing. This is how to deal with it. Do it now. And on the machines where you are a guest rather than the administrator? Besides, I'd bet that most administrators would not expect anything to break as long as they continue to accept the old style addresses. > If they don't, they get to deal with the technical issues. It's not a visible problem, and it should be at least as much of an issue for a list to keep sending to addresses where no one is reading as for the receiving machine to accept it. Les Mikesell les@mcs.com From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:48:40 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01712; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01702 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lt1.f-body.org (tconl79236.tconl.com [204.26.79.236]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA01953 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 06:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (robg@localhost) by lt1.f-body.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23770 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:05:18 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from robg@lt1.f-body.org) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:05:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert Glover To: majordomo-users Subject: What is "unknown mailer error 138"? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Yesterday, for no apparent reason, our server started bouncing all messages to the nearly four dozen lists running on it, all with errors similar to this one: ------------------ ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- "|/usr/home/rob/majordomo/wrapper resend -l fourth-gen -h f-body.org fourth-gen-outgoing" (expanded from: ) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Bus error 554 "|/usr/home/rob/majordomo/wrapper resend -l fourth-gen -h f-body.org fourth-gen-outgoing"... unknown mailer error 138 ------------------ The only difference being the name of the list. I rebooted the box and it seemed to be fine after that. The box had been up for about seven days, and it's running Majordomo 1.94.4 and FreeBSD 2.2.5-CURRENT. This is the first time I've ever seen this error. We had about 50 meg of free space on the partition where the lists reside at the time, which is usually plenty. All other drives were fine as well. Any ideas? Thanks! Rob From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:52:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA06854; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk (euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk [138.250.48.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA06845 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from annex-1-pt5.ccc.cranfield.ac.uk ([138.250.1.228] helo=arpad.thegreen.private ident=cc047) by euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) id 0ys0TF-0004zC-00; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 08:41:25 +0100 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 08:41:22 +0100 (BST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-Sender: cc047@arpad.thegreen.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: Gerry Stanek cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: File size? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980630145614.00903600@mail.mn.csoft.com> Message-ID: Organization: Cranfield University Computer Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Gerry Stanek wrote: > Is there a limit on the size of an e-mail majordomo can send? > I am having e-mails bounce stating that the file is >100000. > > How do I change this? There is a message size limit in the .config file, so you can update the .configuration file in the usual way. Note that this appears to have already been changed, since the majordomo default is 40000, so someone must have already nearly tripled it. Please be aware that the 40000 default limit is there for a reason. Once you start distributing papers, it is much better for people to put papers or large documents on a website and simply post an announcement saying where it is. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826 Cranfield Computer Centre FAX 751 814 J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice. From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:54:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01684; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01674 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tonga (tonga.unavco.ucar.edu [128.117.39.214]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id PAA18492 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NOSPAM.ucar.edu (hammer.unavco.ucar.edu [128.117.39.37]) by tonga (SMI-8.6/UNAVCO Post Office) with ESMTP id QAA07164 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:56:08 -0600 Message-ID: <35996D0D.74618380@NOSPAM.ucar.edu> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:56:14 -0600 From: Jim Riley Reply-To: jriley@unavco.ucar.edu Organization: UNAVCO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: moderated list approval in MD 1.94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I would appreciate it if someone could tell me how to approve a bounced message from MD requesting approval. I have read the README, FAQ, ORA, etc... But have yet to get a clear and concise answer. I am running MD 1.94 with Perl 5. Everything seems to work fine except when I try and make a list moderated. I receive the BOUNCE message from MD, but when I send an approve command as a prefix to the message body back to MD I only receive errors such as the following (enclosed in {}'s) from MD: { -- >>>> approve teqc teqc.pass **** approve: unknown list ''. >>>> ------------- Begin Forwarded Message ------------- END OF COMMANDS **** Help for majordomo@tonga.unavco.ucar.edu: } (entire MD help file text removed for brevity) This seems like a syntax issue. How does one successfully approve messages to a moderated list? I've read about people being able to do it, but have not had any luck myself. I'd would really appreciate any clues/information to help me see the light. Please respond to me directly. Jim Riley jriley@unavco.ucar.edu From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:55:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01630; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01620 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pop02.globecomm.net (pop02.globecomm.net [207.51.48.186]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA15775 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindless.com (unknown21.horizsys.com [205.231.56.21]) by pop02.globecomm.net (8.8.8/8.8.0) with ESMTP id PAA11057 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35993F4A.D3733165@mindless.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:40:58 -0400 From: Tom X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: digest probs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I was wondering if I could get some help with setting up digests. I am currently going through the docs. They say: To set up a majordomo digest list, you need - digest work directory for incoming messages. This must be under the root $digest_work_dir from majordomo.cf OK did this - digest archive directory for completed digests. This must be under the root $filedir from majordomo.cf, and the directory name must end in $filedir_suffix. What does this mean??? that is my root for majordomo ... like /usr/bin/majordomo/ right? what is this about the suffix though ??? /usr/bin/majordomo/_suffix ???? - the majordomo digest list. This is just like an ordinary majordomo list, except that you need to set the various digest parameters in the list's configuration file ($listdir/whatever-digest.config). They are well commented. Make sure that in the message_footer and message_fronter that you begin all lines that need to be blank with a '-', and if you want the line to begin with whitespace, precede the whitespace with a '-'. - aliases for the digest. There are examples in aliases.slice. -- http://www.cyberthrill.com/cgi-bin/sponsor/dave169/ricochet.cgi?-026zh http://www.cuy.net/books/ From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:58:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01591; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01581 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA14570 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jupiter.Mcs.Net (les@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id NAA07811; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:58:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from les@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id NAA17876; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:58:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Leslie Mikesell Message-Id: <199806301858.NAA17876@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Re: Refusing .forward? To: rich.pieri@prescienttech.com (Rich Pieri) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:58:34 -0500 (CDT) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Rich Pieri" at Jun 30, 98 10:25:02 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Rich Pieri: > > > Also, while I sympathize with your policy, I've found that when > > people try to unsub from another address than they subscribed at, > > it is most often because their institution or ISP has made a small > > change in their address > > Fine. They changed their setup. The onus for dealing with that is on > them, not me. Well, in the case where the old address still receives but you can't put it on outbound messages, you'll end up sending extra copies forever. My ISP used to use mcs.com but now puts mcs.net on everything outbound. Another place was chinet.chinet.com but now it is just chinet.com. They still both accept inbound messages so you won't see bounces. This may be uncommon but it's 2 out of 2 of the addresses I use but don't control. > > -- and insisting and teaching them how to change their From:-field to the > > original is much more time- and work-demanding than just unsub'ing them > > right away. > > My heart bleeds. > > Laziness never justifies not doing it right. There is no right way to do it when the outbound mailer enforces the new from address and the list only accepts commands from the old one. I suppose you can forge a message through a mailer that doesn't care, but what was the purpose of checking this in the first place? Les Mikesell les@mcs.com From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 00:59:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01481; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01471 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:35:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from turbot.dfo.ca (cod.mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca [142.176.61.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA10913 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: id RAA10524; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:53:39 -0300 Received: by gateway id RAA07376 for Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:45:19 -0300 From: bill@ecology.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Message-Id: <199806292045.RAA07376@ecology.bio.dfo.ca> Subject: Taboo_* To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM (Majordomo Users) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:45:19 -0300 (ADT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thomas Gramstad (thomasg@ifi.uio.no) asks: >> First of all, for ease of maintenance I use a trick suggested by Jason, >> instead of putting the taboo items in majordomo.cf I use the following >> lines >> >> require "/d3/majordomo/taboo_headers.pl"; >> require "/d3/majordomo/taboo_body.pl"; >Wait, you're moving too fast. Just WHERE do those lines go? >The same place in majordomo.cf that you would otherwise have the >taboo lines? >And I suppose /d3/majordomo/ is just your local file path, to be >replaced with the local equivalent? Sorry to have been unclear about this. The require lines can actually be inserted just after where the equivalent code appears in majordomo.cf -- my understanding is that it overwrites the definitions that preceed it, so you can just add it in somewhere further down in the file, and that way if you want to get rid of it you only have to delete or comment out two lines. Also, it makes it easier to use patches, if that happens. And yes, /d3/majordomo is equivalent to ~majordomo on my system. I'm not reading the list now, I had to unsubscribe since I'll be out of town for a while, so I won't be able to respond to any further questions for quite a while. However, there are lots of people on this list who understand what I did better than I do! -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 http://www.mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/science/mesd/he/staff/silvert/silvert.html From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 01:01:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01901; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:41:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01893 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:41:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adl0075.baarnie.tafe.sa.edu.au (adl0075.tafe.sa.edu.au [143.92.1.75]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA14358 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adl0075 (tomp@adl0075 [143.92.1.75]) by adl0075.baarnie.tafe.sa.edu.au with SMTP (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.7.1) id PAA25918; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:55:46 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:55:46 +0930 (CST) From: Tom Poczman X-Sender: tomp@adl0075 Reply-To: Tom Poczman To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM cc: Tom Poczman Subject: Prob with too long "approve" statement Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gday all - when I try and approve a number of users to a list, I get a funny message comming back, which makes me think that the "approve" line statement is too long due to the list name being long. Please note I have no control over the list names as such (ie content or naming) as Im a sysadmin ! The command that is used to subscribe a username is approve listpasswd subscribe national-records-mgt-network cnorthwo@mail.newcastle.edu.au The above is all on one line, then the next line has an "end" to it The error message I get is the following approve listpasswd subscribe national-records-mgt-network **** Address already subscribed to national-records-mgt-network **** Command '' not recognized. end END OF COMMANDS The above error message seems to recognise that is a command that majordomo should interpret, and is not considered as part of the original single approve command line. I have heard that there is a switch or a syntax that allows you includecommands logically as one line even though that physically they are typed in as seperate lines - this syntax is a slash ( / or \ ) - dont know which ??!! Is this so ?? Is anyone aware of a solution to the prob above - majordomo works fine with shorter list names, or list names without a hyphen (-). Could this be my prob as well ?? We are running Majordomo 1.94.3, running on a D370 HPUX 10.20., with perl 5.004_4. with sendmail 8.96 Appreciate your attention in advance !! cheers Tom tomp@tafe.sa.edu.au From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 03:59:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA15408; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 03:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA15401 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 03:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ben by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 1.950 #7) id 0ys3TZ-0000vy-00; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:53:57 +0100 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:53:57 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Smithurst To: jriley@unavco.ucar.edu cc: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: moderated list approval in MD 1.94 In-Reply-To: <35996D0D.74618380@NOSPAM.ucar.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Jim Riley wrote: > >>>> approve teqc teqc.pass Original headers Original message HTH -- Ben Smithurst From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 07:14:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA17465; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 07:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.capital-online.com.cn ([202.96.44.102]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA17458 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 07:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tonghong ([192.168.28.29]) by mail.capital-online.com.cn (Netscape Messaging Server 3.01) with SMTP id AAB9029 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 22:12:04 +0800 Message-Id: X-Sender: romaine@mail.263.net.cn X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 20:42:36 +0800 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Romaine Subject: Re: Newbie questions In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:07 PM 7/1/98 -0500, Ray Jones wrote: >> 3) How can I use "who listname" while I set "private_who = no"? > >In the current version 1.94.4, there is no "private_who." It is now, >"who_access = closed." If the latter, send the following to majordomo. > >approve listpassword who listname > >where the a in approve DOESN'T HAVE TO BE capitalized, listpassword is >your administrative password and where listname is the name of your list. Uh-oh, here's what I got from the server: >>>>> approve ***** who ****-l >**** approve: invalid command 'who' >**** Help for Majordomo@****.edu: > >This is Brent Chapman's "Majordomo" mailing list manager, version 1.93. (snip) > who [] > Find out who is on the named . Why didn't majordomo recognize the "who" command? >> 4) If I subscribe some addresses like "Tom K Jones " or "Joe >> Smith ", will Majordomo accept them correctly? >I'm not even sure what you're asking here. If you mean will majordomo >accept them if YOU do it, the answer is yes IF you do it in the following >way: >Send the following message to majordomo >approve subscribe listname "Tom K Jones " >IF on the other hand, you're referring to something else such as the form >of the address, please be more specific. For example, I sent the command: >approve ****** subscribe ******-l Rodrigo Espinosa Cabral > The server replied with: >>>>> approve ****** subscribe *******-l Rodrigo Espinosa Cabral >Succeeded. Later the server began to bounce the messages to Rodrigo, Espinosa & Cabral. TIA. Romaine From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 3 18:45:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA22727; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl1.america.net (atl1.america.net [199.170.121.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA22720 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jbellis (max1-17.altamaha.net [208.197.105.51]) by atl1.america.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24943 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 21:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807040131.VAA24943@atl1.america.net> From: "John B. Ellis" To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 21:30:54 -500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Lists Reply-to: jbellis@atl1.america.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01a) Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk When I send mail to a list all members of the list receive the message ok except the sender. I have received a request to have the list send a copy of the message to the sender also. I have looked but I can't figure out where to configure this. I am running Majordomo 1.94.3 on Linux using Sendmail. Does anyone know where to do this? ******************************************************************** * John B.Ellis * E-Mail:jbellis@mail.altamaha.net * * P. O. Box 335 * * * Hazlehurst, Ga. 31539 ***************************************** * * Phone: (912)375-3014 * * * * ******************************************************************** From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 4 04:44:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA00852; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 04:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from praline.no.neosoft.com (praline.no.NeoSoft.COM [206.27.160.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id EAA00845 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 04:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 26564 invoked by uid 10086); 4 Jul 1998 11:42:31 -0000 Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 06:42:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Ray Jones To: Romaine cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Newbie questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Jul 1998, Romaine wrote: > Uh-oh, here's what I got from the server: > > >>>>> approve ***** who ****-l > >**** approve: invalid command 'who' I assume that by ***** you mean the list password and that by ****-l you mean the listname. If so, I have no idea why it won't work for you. It works for me and everyone else that I know of. > For example, I sent the command: > >approve ****** subscribe ******-l Rodrigo Espinosa Cabral > > > The server replied with: > >>>>> approve ****** subscribe *******-l Rodrigo Espinosa Cabral > >Succeeded. > Later the server began to bounce the messages to Rodrigo, Espinosa & Cabral. What was the reason given for the bounce? I can see why the above should not have worked, BUT it apparently did. The line is wrapped and you evidently did not include the \ necessary when the line wraps to a second line. In other words, you should have sent approve subscribe Rodrigo Espinosa Cabral\ However, since it seems to have succeeded anyway, I wonder what the reason for the bounce was. -- Regards, "Big Ray the Cab Driver" Jones - Licensed Tour Guide ICQ UIN 1473313 Author of "The Complete Idiot's Travel Guide to New Orleans" ISBN 0-02-862303-7 Disseminating info about New Orleans & Louisiana via my web page at http://www.neosoft.com/~rayjones/welcome.html or you can join "Big Ray's" New Orleans Mailing List by sending: subscribe noml To: majordomo@communique.net From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 4 11:00:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA03979; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from roxy.sfo.com (roxy.sfo.com [205.162.14.50]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA03962 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office (sf-043.sfo.com [207.33.216.43]) by roxy.sfo.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id KAA10256 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980704175020.00b938a0@pop.sfo.com> X-Sender: soundbyte@pop.sfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 10:50:20 -0700 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Allen Subject: Re: Newbie questions Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I had a similar problem that was solved by putting quote marks around the name as "joe blow" . Allen At 06:42 AM 7/4/1998 -0500, Ray Jones wrote: >On Fri, 3 Jul 1998, Romaine wrote: > >> Uh-oh, here's what I got from the server: >> >> >>>>> approve ***** who ****-l >> >**** approve: invalid command 'who' > >I assume that by ***** you mean the list password and that by ****-l you >mean the listname. If so, I have no idea why it won't work for you. It >works for me and everyone else that I know of. > >> For example, I sent the command: >> >approve ****** subscribe ******-l Rodrigo Espinosa Cabral >> > >> The server replied with: >> >>>>> approve ****** subscribe *******-l Rodrigo Espinosa Cabral >> >Succeeded. >> Later the server began to bounce the messages to Rodrigo, Espinosa & Cabral. > >What was the reason given for the bounce? > >I can see why the above should not have worked, BUT it apparently did. The >line is wrapped and you evidently did not include the \ necessary when the >line wraps to a second line. In other words, you should have sent > >approve subscribe Rodrigo Espinosa Cabral\ > > >However, since it seems to have succeeded anyway, I wonder what the reason >for the bounce was. > >-- >Regards, > >"Big Ray the Cab Driver" Jones - Licensed Tour Guide ICQ UIN 1473313 > Author of "The Complete Idiot's Travel Guide to New Orleans" > ISBN 0-02-862303-7 > >Disseminating info about New Orleans & Louisiana via my web page at > http://www.neosoft.com/~rayjones/welcome.html > >or you can join "Big Ray's" New Orleans Mailing List by sending: > subscribe noml To: majordomo@communique.net > > > From majordomo-users-owner Sun Jul 5 13:15:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA19999; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 13:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindresearch.cas.ilstu.edu (mindresearch.cas.ilstu.edu [138.87.151.22]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA19992 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 13:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindresearch.cas.ilstu.edu (mdmonk@mindresearch.cas.ilstu.edu [138.87.151.22]) by mindresearch.cas.ilstu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06744 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 15:16:44 -0500 Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 15:16:44 -0500 (CDT) From: mdmonk To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Majordomo question Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is it normal for the member of a list who sent the original message to the list, to not get a copy of the message sent to him/her? When a list memeber sends a message to the list, they do not get a copy sent to them from the majordomo. Is this proper? Thanks for any and all replies. Chuck Little. Mindresearch. From majordomo-users-owner Sun Jul 5 16:29:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA22824; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 16:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinet.chinet.com (chinet.chinet.com [206.158.147.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA22817 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 16:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ahk@localhost) by chinet.chinet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA01716 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 18:27:52 -0500 Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 18:27:52 -0500 (CDT) From: "Adam H. Kerman" To: majordomo-users Subject: Re: Majordomo question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Chuck Little >Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 15:16:44 -0500 (CDT) >Is it normal for the member of a list who sent the original message to the >list, to not get a copy of the message sent to him/her? This isn't a majordomo issue. You don't say, but I'll guess you are using sendmail. It depends how "MeToo" is set in sendmail.cf. If "N", then, no, the author doesn't get a copy from the server. From majordomo-users-owner Sun Jul 5 20:45:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA24857; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindresearch.cas.ilstu.edu (mindresearch.cas.ilstu.edu [138.87.151.22]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA24850 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindresearch.cas.ilstu.edu (mdmonk@mindresearch.cas.ilstu.edu [138.87.151.22]) by mindresearch.cas.ilstu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00676 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 22:39:06 -0500 Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 22:39:05 -0500 (CDT) From: mdmonk To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Majordomo question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thank you evryone that replied. It was an oversight on my part. I had forgotten to set the "MeToo" option in sendmail.cf. Thought I had taken care of that, but I didn't. It's now fixed and runs like a champ. Once again. Thanks all! Chuck Little. MindResearch >> It depends how "MeToo" is set in sendmail.cf. From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 6 00:14:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA26868; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 00:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA26861 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 00:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibm.net (pool042-max5.ds8-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.2.142]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA01662 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 00:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35A07991.6D338DAB@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 00:15:29 -0700 From: Jeff Lasman Reply-To: jlasman@ibm.net Organization: Interesting Times X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Majordomo Users Subject: Re: Newbie questions References: <19980630220926.G26267@smoe.org> <19980701103112.A12646@swcp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Lazlo Nibble wrote: > If you're aware of some way to set up perl and Eudora on a Windows box that > allows you to successfully approve messages with the "approve" script, please > explain further -- this'd make a great addition to the FAQ. I have yet to run > across a Windows email client that understands the concept of piping (although > I have to admit I ain't looking too damned hard :-). Lazlo, I successfully do exactly what Romaine was trying to do; that is use Eudroa 4.0 on a Win95 (now Win98, but hating every moment of it) system. You don't run Perl, you don't pipe. You open the message, copy, close the message, open a "new" message, paste, and insert the approval line at the top of the message. The "magic" here is that Eudora Pro shows the headers in the editable message window, in ordinary, unformatted text, making it easy to add the "approved:" header. Netscape doesn't. Microsoft's Outlook doesn't. I've got a bit of an advantage over Romaine; I used to (about four years) ago, use Majordomo on my own Linux box. So when I searched for a Windows client, at least I knew the functionality I needed; I knew what to look for. I've already written Romaine privately, offering to teach him/her the entire process. Jeff -- Jeff Lasman "Publisher of the FREE InterestingTimes computer-industry newsletter. To subscribe, write "subscribe InterestingTimes" (without the quotes) in the body of your email. From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 6 00:29:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA27001; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 00:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA26994 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 00:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibm.net (pool042-max5.ds8-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.2.142]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA03334 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 00:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35A07ABA.2561FD3F@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 00:20:26 -0700 From: Jeff Lasman Reply-To: jlasman@ibm.net Organization: Interesting Times X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Any way to restrict a list? References: <3.0.1.32.19980626154145.007b4e70@128.196.42.70> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As some have already pointed out, many of us who are NOT unix-users, not majordomo-owners, but only list-owners, never get the documentation. Others of us, not having any experience with any unix commands or systems, probably have access, but don't have any idea what the documentation says. And then, majordomo-owners who do know what to do (or certainly should) make their own jobs a bit easier by directing people to this list instead of teaching them. I haven't read the list faq (but will, if someone would be so kind as to direct me to it); I hope it tells people (near the top ) where the majordomo documentation can be found. Jeff Rich Pieri wrote: > This question is asked repeatedly. > > Does anyone bother to actually read the documentation that comes with > Majordomo? -- Jeff Lasman "Publisher of the FREE InterestingTimes computer-industry newsletter. To subscribe, write "subscribe InterestingTimes" (without the quotes) in the body of your email. From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 6 12:44:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA07642; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shire.middleearth.net (shire.middleearth.net [209.54.40.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA07635 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (newslist@localhost) by shire.middleearth.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA14378 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:33:27 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:33:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeff Fitzgerald X-Sender: newslist@shire.middleearth.net To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.com Subject: Subscription Error? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I am new to majordomo, and have question about why I get subscription messages that appear to be done right by the subscriber. The message below is what I received. It looks like the person copied the auth line just fime. Sooo, why did come to me instead of processing. Many Thanks, Jeff PS>Yes, I am reading through the FAQ too... ==== Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:19:59 -0400 From: Reggie Lewis To: Majordomo@flagfootball.com Subject: RE: Confirmation for subscribe ezine [The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] auth 548cd338 subscribe ezine lewis@ray.nlm.nih.gov -----Original Message----- From: Majordomo@flagfootball.com [mailto:Majordomo@flagfootball.com] Sent: Monday, July 06, 1998 3:15 PM To: lewis@ray.nlm.nih.gov Subject: Confirmation for subscribe ezine -- Someone (possibly you) has requested that your email address be added to or deleted from the mailing list "ezine@flagfootball.com". If you really want this action to be taken, please send the following commands (exactly as shown) back to "Majordomo@flagfootball.com": auth 548cd338 subscribe ezine lewis@ray.nlm.nih.gov If you do not want this action to be taken, simply ignore this message and the request will be disregarded. If your mailer will not allow you to send the entire command as a single line, you may split it using backslashes, like so: auth 548cd338 subscribe ezine \ lewis@ray.nlm.nih.gov If you have any questions about the policy of the list owner, please contact "ezine-approval@flagfootball.com". Thanks! Majordomo@flagfootball.com From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 6 14:29:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA08887; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sld.cu (mail.sld.cu [196.1.112.27]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA08880 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:22:58 -0700 (PDT) From: inter-l@cristal.hlg.sld.cu Received: (from daemon@localhost) by mail.sld.cu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA02825 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:23:17 -0400 Received: from UNKNOWN(196.1.112.18), claiming to be "infomed.sld.cu" via SMTP by mail.sld.cu, id smtpda02805; Mon Jul 6 17:23:10 1998 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by infomed.sld.cu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id RAA03161 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:18:58 -0400 Received: (from inter-l@localhost) by cristal.hlg.sld.cu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06319 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 09:53:12 -0400 Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 09:53:12 -0400 Message-Id: <199807061353.JAA06319@cristal.hlg.sld.cu> To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Where is MhonArch? Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi! Where can I find mhonarc to work with wilma? Sincerly Augusto From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 6 14:38:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA08916; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caliban.ibsys.com (caliban.ibsys.com [206.242.87.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id OAA08907 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibsys.com by caliban.ibsys.com via ESMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1502/940406.SGI) for id QAA15949; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:29:11 -0500 Message-ID: <35A14180.C2FD6AA2@ibsys.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 16:28:32 -0500 From: Peter Raih X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.com Subject: Wilma - Missing Function References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think I've glimpse and MHonArc working together but now when I try to get the initial search page of Wilma I get an error that says that it is missing a function. when I go to: http://www.server.com/cgi-bin/wilma/wilma.cgi/listname-list It starts to execute but then at line 174 tries the function "startform": startform('-method' => "GET", '-action' => $script), and this is the error that my script gives me: Undefined subroutine &main::startform called at /usr/ns-home/cgi-bin/wilma/wilma.cgi line 173. One of the dozens of READMEs that I've accumulated thoughout getting this all together mentionned that wilma needs to be in the same directory as the other scripts. It is in the same directory as the other Wilma scripts - but not as the glimpse, or MHonArc - is that the problem? Any other ideas? like a module that I might need or maybe I have an old module? Thanks, Peter -- Peter Raih Senior Programmer Internet Broadcasting System http://www.ibsys.com (612) 896-9898 From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 6 14:45:29 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA09470; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caliban.ibsys.com (caliban.ibsys.com [206.242.87.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id OAA09463 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibsys.com by caliban.ibsys.com via ESMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1502/940406.SGI) id QAA16360; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:45:04 -0500 Message-ID: <35A14538.276ADB28@ibsys.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 16:44:24 -0500 From: Peter Raih X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: inter-l@cristal.hlg.sld.cu CC: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Where is MhonArch? References: <199807061353.JAA06319@cristal.hlg.sld.cu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Try this: http://www.oac.uci.edu/indiv/ehood/mhonarc.html inter-l@cristal.hlg.sld.cu wrote: > Hi! > > Where can I find mhonarc to work with wilma? > > Sincerly > > Augusto -- Peter Raih Senior Programmer Internet Broadcasting System http://www.ibsys.com (612) 896-9898 From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 6 15:00:17 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA09741; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brainiac.com (brainiac.com [205.181.190.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA09734 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from metheny (metheny.brainiac.com [205.181.190.65]) by brainiac.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA19118; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:55:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by metheny (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15763; Mon, 6 Jul 98 17:55:42 EDT From: jh@metheny.brainiac.com (Joe Hartley) Message-Id: <9807062155.AA15763@metheny> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:55:41 -0400 (EDT) To: paraih@ibsys.com Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.com Subject: Re: Wilma - Missing Function In-Reply-To: <35A14180.C2FD6AA2@ibsys.com> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3.2-970721-sun Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Peter Raih wrote: > http://www.server.com/cgi-bin/wilma/wilma.cgi/listname-list Your URL is incorrect. http://www.server.com/cgi-bin/wilma/listname-list is what you want. ======================================================================== Joe Hartley - jh@brainiac.com - brainiac services, inc PO Box 5069 : Greene, RI : 02827 - vox 401.539.9050 : fax 401.539.2070 Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 6 15:08:52 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA09169; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ex1.ncsa.uiuc.edu (ex1.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.3.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA09162 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.ncsa.uiuc.edu (mx1.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.3.15]) by ex1.ncsa.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15985; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:38:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ferret.ncsa.uiuc.edu (ferret.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.21.119]) by mx1.ncsa.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22823; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:38:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from lindsey@localhost) by ferret.ncsa.uiuc.edu (8.9.0/8.8.5) id QAA00993; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:37:56 -0500 From: Christopher Lindsey Message-Id: <199807062137.QAA00993@ferret.ncsa.uiuc.edu> Subject: Re: Where is MhonArch? To: inter-l@cristal.hlg.sld.cu Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:37:56 -0500 (CDT) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199807061353.JAA06319@cristal.hlg.sld.cu> from "inter-l@cristal.hlg.sld.cu" at Jul 6, 98 09:53:12 am Content-Type: text Content-MD5: m7goFt7Oa7jbW3hiZ/oNXAAA Content-MD5-Origin: ferret.ncsa.uiuc.edu Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Where can I find mhonarc to work with wilma? http://www.oac.uci.edu/indiv/ehood/mhonarc.html Chris From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 6 15:45:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA10627; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.state.mn.us (mail.state.mn.us [204.73.26.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id PAA10620 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [156.99.3.188] by mail.state.mn.us; Mon, 6 Jul 98 17:40:59 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980706173846.3ce768ba@mail.state.mn.us> X-Sender: nthomas@mail.state.mn.us X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 17:38:46 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: "J. Neil Thomas" Subject: MajorCool Segmentation Fault Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anyone have clue about Segmentation Fault when using MajorCool to manage MajorDomo lists? From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 6 17:45:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA12084; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vortex.worldaccessnet.com (worldaccessnet.com [206.190.139.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id RAA12077 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vortex.worldaccessnet.com id m0ytLm9-000dJGC; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:38:29 -0700 (PDT) (Smail3.2.0.91#4) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:38:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Ed Hickel To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Hiding outgoing alias with smail Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I have a moderated mail list that just recently started having problems with people sending directly to the outgoing alias and bypassing the approval process. I have changed the outgoing alias, specified the command line arguments in the file referenced by the @filename in the alias. The messages go out fine. The problem is that the outgoing alias is showing up as the To: field in the messages that go out, thus negating everything else I did. Below is a sample of what I mean Date: Mon, 6 Jul 98 12:48 PDT From: owner-test-list@worldkids.net To: test-list-sendout@worldkids.net,nobody@worldkids.net >Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 13:29:31 -0700 >To: test-list@worldkids.net >From: hickel@worldaccessnet.com >Subject: I'm lost What I want is that instead of test-list-sendout in the To: field, it would put the actual email address it is sending to, or at least something other than the outgoing alias. I believe the problem is being caused by smail, or rather some configuration for smail that I'm missing. I have the following entry in my directors file for smail # aliasinclude - expand ":include:filename" addresses produced by alias files aliasinclude: driver = aliasinclude, # use this special-case driver nobody; # associate nobody user with addresses # when mild permission violations # are encountered copysecure, # get permissions from alias director copyowners # get owners from alias director I have read through the majordomo faq and searched the archives of this list and none of the suggestions seem to change what is output in the To: field. I'm running Smail3.1.29.1 #29.11 MajorDomo 1.93 BSDI BSD/OS 2.1 Perl5.003 My thanks for any help you can give. ed p.s. Here are the relevant aliases: test-list: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper resend @/usr/local/majordomo/test-list.sendout" test-list-sendout: :include:/usr/local/majordomo/lists/test-list owner-test-list-sendout: test-list-owner test-list-request: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper request-answer test-list" owner-test-list: test-list-owner owner-test-list-request: test-list-owner test-list-approval: hickel test-list-owner: hickel owner-test-list-owner: hickel the file test-list.sendout -l wan-list -h worldkids.net -s wan-list-sendout,nobody From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 01:17:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA15937; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 01:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from infomail.es (ncc1.infomail.es [194.224.53.134]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id BAA15930 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 01:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pp9 ([195.235.32.69]) by infomail.es (Tid InfoMail Exchanger v2.00) with SMTP id #899799379.211770001; Thu, 1 Jan 1970 01:00:07 +0200 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980707162000.0069fb3c@nsb2.infomail.es> X-Sender: 00105185@nsb2.infomail.es X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 10:20:00 -0600 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: RAFAEL SEGOVIA VILCHEZ X-Infomail-Id: 899799379.52B9010A811066.39909 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hallo all, I have made some doubts: 1) about the creation of lists.These are: how can someone ask to create a new list in a server ? The person who creates the list ,must he/she be in the machine whre majordomo is running?? 2) in the case of restrict lists.You must refer RESTRICT_POST variable to some files.Who can modifie those files???The majordomo administrator,the list administrator?? From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 01:45:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA17439; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 01:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id BAA17432 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 01:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id EAA00090; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 04:34:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA14307; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 04:34:29 -0400 Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 04:34:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeffrey Kaplan To: RAFAEL SEGOVIA VILCHEZ Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980707162000.0069fb3c@nsb2.infomail.es> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, RAFAEL SEGOVIA VILCHEZ wrote: ; 1) about the creation of lists.These are: ; how can someone ask to create a new list in a server ? Ask the admin of the service. For example, we make it easy. When a customer asks us for a mail list, we email them an application that contains questions on everything needed to get a list going. The customer emails it back, and we create the list files. ; The person who creates the list ,must he/she be in the machine whre ; majordomo is running?? Yes, so far as I know. ; 2) in the case of restrict lists.You must refer RESTRICT_POST variable to ; some files.Who can modifie those files???The majordomo administrator,the ; list administrator?? Generally, the majordomo-owner does that. Unless there's a patch to Majordomo that allows the list owner's to manipulate a .mod file. -- Jeffrey Kaplan <*> I'm set up for PGP. Are you? jkapllan@world.std.com <*> There is only one "l" in my name. There is no need to copy to me via email a newsgroup follow-up. The World does not necessarily agree with my opinions. "Sir Gawain had the uh... same problem you know." "Did he?" "Ah yes. Come the morning we'd often take one look at him and call him... the Green Knight." ("King" Arthur and Marcus Cole, B5 "A Late Delivery From Avalon") From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 03:30:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA18894; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 03:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from praline.no.neosoft.com (praline.no.NeoSoft.COM [206.27.160.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id DAA18884 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 03:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 26513 invoked by uid 10086); 7 Jul 1998 10:12:11 -0000 Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:12:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Ray Jones To: Jeffrey Kaplan cc: RAFAEL SEGOVIA VILCHEZ , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote: > ; 2) in the case of restrict lists.You must refer RESTRICT_POST variable to > ; some files.Who can modifie those files???The majordomo administrator,the > ; list administrator?? > > Generally, the majordomo-owner does that. Unless there's a patch to > Majordomo that allows the list owner's to manipulate a .mod file. You can also set restrict_post = and then the listowner can modify same by subscribing and unsubscribing addresses. That's the way my list is set up and it works for me. That's the easiest way I know for a listowner to modify the file unless the (as you say) the list-owner also has access to modify other files. -- Regards, "Big Ray the Cab Driver" Jones - Licensed Tour Guide ICQ UIN 1473313 Author of "The Complete Idiot's Travel Guide to New Orleans" ISBN 0-02-862303-7 Disseminating info about New Orleans & Louisiana via my web page at http://www.neosoft.com/~rayjones/welcome.html or you can join "Big Ray's" New Orleans Mailing List by sending: subscribe noml To: majordomo@communique.net From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 03:37:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA21082; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 03:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from infomail.es (ncc1.infomail.es [194.224.53.134]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id DAA21074 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 03:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pp9 ([195.235.32.102]) by infomail.es (Tid InfoMail Exchanger v2.00) with SMTP id #899807576.182110001; Thu, 1 Jan 1970 01:00:07 +0200 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980707183638.0069dcb8@nsb2.infomail.es> X-Sender: 00105185@nsb2.infomail.es X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 12:36:38 -0600 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: RAFAEL SEGOVIA VILCHEZ Subject: A studies project X-Infomail-Id: 899807576.4723010A811066.48106 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hallo all, I am an spanish student of engeneer.I have had to make a project for finishing my career.And this has been a service of workspace via mail and web based in majordomo for most of the administrate things. All the users have some rights (to write to the list, to read, to moderate,to be able to acces via web...).(most of them based in majordomo)(for example to be able to the write I used RESTRICT_POST). But with some differences: When you susbcribe someone you do it giving some rights,and the program writes his address in the necessary files. * You can also make all this things via web, (like subcribing, unsubscribing,to modificate the config,intro,info files via web,etc ). * You have a web space to create folders,files, etc.(you can put everykind of files via web or mail) Now,I have almost finished it and I would really need and appreciate someone who could be interested in the theme and that wants in an altruist way to read what I have done to see what he/she thinks of the idea ,of how is made and which mistakes sees. One inconvenient, is that it is written is spanish. I would also appreciate any references of people working or relacionating in this who could be interested. Other thing: I have modified majordomo program.I know it is GNU.Should I publish the code that I have done?? It is nothing comercial it is just for my studies. Thank you very much in advance From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 04:29:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA22293; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 04:21:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA22286 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 04:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA12335; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 06:22:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807071122.GAA12335@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com> Received: from nbw-nj11-46.ix.netcom.com(207.94.119.174) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma012298; Tue Jul 7 06:22:09 1998 X-Sender: hot2trot@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 07:20:25 -0400 To: Ray Jones From: hot2trot@bigfoot.com (Burt Juda) Subject: Re: your mail Cc: Jeffrey Kaplan , RAFAEL SEGOVIA VILCHEZ , majordomo-users@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 05:12 AM 7/7/98 -0500, Ray Jones wrote: >On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote: >> ; 2) in the case of restrict lists.You must refer RESTRICT_POST variable to >> ; some files.Who can modifie those files???The majordomo administrator,the >> ; list administrator?? >> >> Generally, the majordomo-owner does that. Unless there's a patch to >> Majordomo that allows the list owner's to manipulate a .mod file. >You can also set restrict_post = and then the listowner can >modify same by subscribing and unsubscribing addresses. That's the way my >list is set up and it works for me. >That's the easiest way I know for a listowner to modify the file unless >the (as you say) the list-owner also has access to modify other files. You can also use a 2nd *hidden*/closed list to be the target of the RESTRICT_POST of the first list., simply using Majordomo itself as the mechanism for the list-owner to maintain the restriction file. From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 05:45:20 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA23606; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adl0075.baarnie.tafe.sa.edu.au (adl0075.tafe.sa.edu.au [143.92.1.75]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA23599 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adl0075 (tomp@adl0075 [143.92.1.75]) by adl0075.baarnie.tafe.sa.edu.au with SMTP (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.7.1) id WAA28498; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:06:34 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:06:34 +0930 (CST) From: Tom Poczman X-Sender: tomp@adl0075 To: RAFAEL SEGOVIA VILCHEZ cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980707162000.0069fb3c@nsb2.infomail.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk With creating lists, a "majordomo" account can create the list, but certain security issues need to be reviewed such as 1. When a list is created, lines are inserted need to be inserted into the aliases file to reflect the list name, owner, list file, listowner-request etc. 2. the "newaliases" command also needs to be run to incorporate the new additions to the aliases file. The above files in question are ussually owned by root, hence posing a security issue. As sysadmins, we ussually get the request in writing from the end user, identify the listname, owner and initial list password, and create the list ourselves. Weve also written a script that automates the process of 1. making additions to the aliases file 2. creaing the .config, .passwd, .list files from "default" files 3. modify and set correct permissions to the above files 4. execute newaliases. cheers Tom On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, RAFAEL SEGOVIA VILCHEZ wrote: > Hallo all, > I have made some doubts: > > 1) about the creation of lists.These are: > how can someone ask to create a new list in a server ? > The person who creates the list ,must he/she be in the machine whre > majordomo is running?? > > > 2) in the case of restrict lists.You must refer RESTRICT_POST variable to > some files.Who can modifie those files???The majordomo administrator,the > list administrator?? > > From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 08:45:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA26004; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kaori.communique.net (kaori.communique.net [204.27.67.55]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA25997 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kaori.INTERNAL with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:30:59 -0500 Message-ID: From: Raul Zighelboim To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: From: field on messages Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:30:58 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello there; I have a trusting problem: Running sendmail 8.9 and majordomo 1.94.4 Sometime, I want to change the From: field of the article from the sender to something else, for example, 'From: majordomo-owner@domain'. Is there a way to do this ? Thanks. From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 16:45:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA02005; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkman.org (cpu1787.adsl.bellglobal.com [206.47.37.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA01998 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from george (george.monkman.org [192.168.66.20]) by monkman.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25179 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:41:36 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brian@monkman.org) Message-Id: <199807072341.TAA25179@monkman.org> From: "Brian Monkman" To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:45:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Approving unsubscribed members Reply-to: brian@monkman.org In-reply-to: <01BD9F5A.570DFF10.jgreer@newyork.edisonproject.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am running a closed list that currently only allows subscribes to post. I am getting messages that are attempted to be post by non- subscribers bounced to me. So far so good. What I want to be able to do is have the option of approving some of these bounces without having to open up or moderate the list I would like to this to be seamless to the subscribers I haven't been able to figure out how to do this. Could someone point me in the right direction? Thanks in advance. Brian Monkman --- Brian Monkman - Nepean, Ontario brian@monkman.org http://www.monkman.org Faith and reason are like the shoes on your feet. You can walk with one, but it is easier to travel farther with both. From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 17:14:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA02399; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peak.org (PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA02387 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (sechrest@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peak.org (8.8.5/8.6.7) with ESMTP id RAA10634 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807080010.RAA10634@peak.org> To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: VERY large mailing lists. Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 17:10:17 -0700 From: John Sechrest Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello all, I have a system which is running many majordomo lists. and I am generally pleased with Majordomo for what we do. I have just been asked to configure a system for a collection of VERY large mailing lists. Specifically, one list has 130,000 addresses on it. another has 10,000 addresses on it. All of my current lists are below 1000, so I have no experience with large lists. But I am suspecting that I may run into problems. Can anyone point me to resources about how to run a 130,000 user mailing list so that it is easy and functional? ----- John Sechrest . Helping people use CEO PEAK - . computers and the Internet Public Electronic . more effectively Access to Knowledge,Inc . 850 SW 15th Street . Internet: sechrest@peak.org Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325 . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 20:59:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA05040; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA05026 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:44:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA41776 ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:46:44 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199807080010.RAA10634@peak.org> Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:45:12 -0700 To: John Sechrest , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:10 PM -0700 7/7/98, John Sechrest wrote: > Specifically, one list has 130,000 addresses on it. > another has 10,000 addresses on it. > > All of my current lists are below 1000, so I have no > experience with large lists. I run multiple lists > 50,000 users now, plus a few hundred lists between 10-50,000, all on the same machine. With majordomo, large lists are pretty straightforward. There are a couple of places that'll bite you: 1) delivery side. make sure you use bulk_mailer or some other delivery optimizer. I have very good results with bulk_mailer doing the batch splitting. 2) delivery side. You can overwhelm your system with delivery attempts. you'll have to figure out how many simultaneous sendmail (or whatever) connections you can handle, and then set up your system to stay below that. That is easier said than done, since 99% of sendmail's load balancing stuff is to keep INCOMING connections from overwhelming servers, and is of small use outgoing. 2a) Hint one: set up all of your -outgoing aliases through bulkmail, and feed bulkmail the "-ODeliveryMode=queueonly" option (I'm assuming sendmail 8.x here. You *definitely* want sendmail 8.8 or later for fixes to queue/load interactions). That sends outgoing mail into the queue but doesn't immediately try to deliver it, so you don't magically find 300 sendmails running after a large batch. 2b) hint two: use a cron job to spawn sendmails. I have a shell script that goes off every minute. It checks to see how many sendmail's are currently in the process table, and if it's below a given number, spawns a bunch (for my big machine, I allow 100 sendmails at once, and under 90 sendmails running, spawn five a minute). Don't try to tune using the sendmail command line, you'll never get things clean. You want a system, when mail starts flowing, to explode to high gear and then level off cold when you hit your useful maximums, so it won't thrash. That'll maximize your output. 2c) use a moderately short but noticable delay before retry. I use "O MinQueueAge=20m". that keeps all those hundreds of sendmails from thrashing over trying to redeliver mail, but doesn't hold mail too long. 2d) use multiple mail queues. After mail's sat for a while (on my site, 12 hours), it goes to a second queue that's processed a lot less often (about once an hour instead of constant). After 3 days, to a third queue that's processed half a dozen times a day. I use a 7 day bounce. If it hasn't been delivered in 12 hours, it's not urgent, so you don't need to waste cycles retrying, but you still want it to go out once the system returns. After 3-4 days of downtime, you're basically just hoping the system comes back... This keeps the main queue from growing too large, minimizing the thrashing of all of those sendmails. 2e) tune majordomo so you don't have too many parallel admin requests running. I have mine cut out at Loadaverge 4. you can get lock failures and other problems if too many of these go off at once, because once you get a really large list, most of your admin requests (sub/unsub) are aimed at that list. and... 3) incoming mail: since incoming and non-bulk_mailer mail is delivered immediately, it takes priority over outgoing mail that's merely queued (in 2a). that's good, in general. But administrative updates start taking longe,r and longer, and longer.... a 50,000 user mail list has a subscriber list file about a megabyte long. 130,000 will be around 2.5-3 meg. Majordomo, when it updates, has to sequentially read/write these files to add or delete addresses, so it slows badly as it scales to large address lists. It's not uncommon for me to see 50-90 second transactions on my larger lists (this is why 2e exists -- and set your shlock timeouts to HUGE values in majordomo.cf. Really huge. But use load averages to keep parallel access down, so minimize thrashing, so you don't often need the long timeouts. But you will...). This is one weakness in majordomo. I've looked at replacing the subscriber list with a dbm file, and then teaching bulkmailer and other routines like which/who to read from it, so that updates are closer to simultaneous, but haven't done that yet. That's a future.... but since I expect some lists to be pushing 300,000 by year end, I think I'll need it. Sequential reading and writing of a flat file just doesn't scale, and there's only so much you can do with faster hardware. 4) Plan on some kind of bounce automation, or you'll slowly go crazy. Look into it before you wake up to 1,500 bounces a day, no after.... The only gotcha I think isn't obvious is the issues surrounding the update time for add/drop to a large subscriber list. the outgoing stuff is pretty straight forward. And until you live with huge bounce lists every day, it's easy to think bounce processing can wait... (it's my next project) -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 21:44:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05945; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA05935 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puce.one.net.au (puce.one.net.au [203.17.224.29]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA26636 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 23:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cheerful.com ([203.24.133.101]) by puce.one.net.au (Netscape Messaging Server 3.52) with ESMTP id AAA2D10 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:52:45 +1000 Message-ID: <35A0746B.A24CC184@cheerful.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 16:53:32 +1000 From: Wayne Burkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Simple Mailing List? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there any software which can be used like Oulook and Netscape, but can supress all the "TO" email addresses? I have a mailing list but no way of sending mails out???? Any help appreciated, Wayne From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 21:45:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05847; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA05839 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haedes.is.bizsystems.com (phantomx.vip.best.com [206.184.205.246]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA06291 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 15:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ribbons.is.bizsystems.com (ribbons.is.bizsystems.com [192.168.20.33]) by haedes.is.bizsystems.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA00718 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 15:03:24 -0700 Message-Id: <199807042203.PAA00718@haedes.is.bizsystems.com> From: "Michael" To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 15:03:13 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Prob with too long "approve" statement Reply-to: michael@bizsystems.com In-reply-to: Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > approve listpasswd subscribe national-records-mgt-network > cnorthwo@mail.newcastle.edu.au > should read approve listpasswd subscribe national-records-mgt-network \ cnorthwo@mail.newcastle.edu.au note the continuation symbol "\" Michael From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 21:53:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA06379; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA06353 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA41514 ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:40:00 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199807080416.VAA28228@peak.org> References: Your message of Tue, 07 Jul 1998 20:45:12 PDT. Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:37:51 -0700 To: John Sechrest , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:16 PM -0700 7/7/98, John Sechrest wrote: > I am very curious how you do the mail bounce automation. I don't yet. That's an upcoming project. right now, it's all manual. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 21:53:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05836; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA05826 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from centaur.achilles.net (centaur.achilles.net [209.151.0.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA04291 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 11:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from petert (port-39.ottawa2.achilles.net [209.151.2.46]) by centaur.achilles.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA18364 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 12:59:15 -0400 Message-ID: <359E6DF3.22F5@achilles.net> Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 14:01:23 -0400 From: Peter Teitelbaum Organization: Riverside Travel Medicine Clinic X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Circular reference X-URL: http://www.greatcircle.com/majordomo/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm newly setting up a mailing list. The first attempt to request, for example, the config file went fine. Now, every command I mail to Majordomo@..... produces the following message: "Circular reference in Majordomo@...... Ab alias with a circular reference was encountered in this message, Please fix the alias and try again." What is the problem? From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 21:59:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05895; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA05885 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bendigo.diesel.net.au (bendigo.diesel.net.au [203.36.144.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id BAA12135 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 01:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (dean@localhost) by bendigo.diesel.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02653 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 18:50:39 +1000 Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 18:50:39 +1000 (EST) From: Dean Brandt To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: message fronter Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi there, In my config file for a list I have: message_fronter << END ================= Customer Bulletin ================= END But no messages posted to the list ever have this on them...any ideas why? Thanks in advance. Regards Dean Brandt Network Manager Ph: +61 3 54411166 Diesel Internet Fax: +61 3 54411676 Melbourne AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------- From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 22:00:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05932; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA05924 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ied.edu.hk (ied.edu.hk [202.45.32.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA25338 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 21:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from es2.ied.edu.hk (smtpgw2 [202.45.62.32]) by ied.edu.hk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA11263 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:03:46 +0800 (HKT) Received: by es2.ied.edu.hk with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:08:54 +0800 Message-ID: From: "CHAN, Sai Bun" To: "'Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.Com'" Subject: Can't direct majordomo mail to single Mail Hosts? Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:08:52 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Sirs, In our site, we have Two mail hosts for mail redundent & share loading, by using MX record. But, we only install the majordomo in one of them in order to maintain the consistence of the mailing list. As a result, when the majordomo mail is directed to mail-hosts that not installed majordomo. User will not get any messages from them. So, pls advice. ivan From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 22:01:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05993; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA05983 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from happy.cow.org (happy.cow.org [209.57.200.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA08752 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ravi@localhost) by happy.cow.org (8.9.0/8.9-(falcon) b0vine system ready and waiting... m00 m00 said the c0w) id RAA18786; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:08:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ravi) Message-ID: <19980706170858.T392@cow.org> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:08:58 -0400 From: Ravi Pina To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: bouncing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm reading the docs and such to setup a bounce list, but seem to have a problem getting to work right. Or it could be that I'm trying to do something that just doesn't work. Anyhow, if someone can help me with the following: I have many lists that other administer. I'd like 1) any address that bounces to be unsubscribed automaticaly and 2) any mailer daemon error related to a certain list go to the list owner rather the majordomo owner. Any examples would be great, thanks! -- Ravi Pina * ravi@cow.org finger ravi@happy.cow.org for pgp key "God did not create the world in seven days; he screwed around for six days and then pulled an all-nighter." -- Unknown From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 22:06:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05699; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA05689 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA22186 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA25425 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:12:43 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Refusing .forward? References: <199807011532.KAA04173@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 02 Jul 1998 11:12:43 -0400 In-Reply-To: Leslie Mikesell's message of "Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:32:57 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 26 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Leslie Mikesell writes: > And on the machines where you are a guest rather than the administrator? Irrelevant. The *SITE* admin should say, look, things are changing. This is how to deal with it. To wit, unsubscribe from the list, and resubscribe with the new address. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNZujaZ6VRH7BJMxHAQGFKwQAio4n+/dB55Kjb+sV5jh13b78/lx90Ngz m3YydSyAO/ea4h3FclZRyBCXl0XEVR+t4NdXjQFmWVfJspsKTMn4VtTfVTaFLadq pa7HGes2M9Bigk7rlPxEKjJyTK8WnFrTWczEJYjwhxrdCE8QQvOqRk1YnUZ8HRA7 sQd7lB7eFmA= =s5wA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / types of skin. Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 22:08:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05823; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA05815 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA02044 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 06:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA20152; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 23:41:10 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980704234105.22871@welearn.com.au> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 23:41:05 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Newbie questions References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Romaine on Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:42:36PM +0800 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 08:42:36PM +0800, Romaine wrote: > For example, I sent the command: > >approve ****** subscribe ******-l Rodrigo Espinosa Cabral > > > The server replied with: > >>>>> approve ****** subscribe *******-l Rodrigo Espinosa Cabral > >Succeeded. > Later the server began to bounce the messages to Rodrigo, Espinosa & Cabral. When you say "bounce" perhaps you really mean that the list mail was distributed to three new subscribers: Rodrigo@somewhere.com, Espinosa@somewhere.com and Cabral@somewhere.com, where "somewhere.com" stands for the server's domain name? You might have more luck if you keep to a single line, with quotes around the whole addresss: approve ****** subscribe ******-l "Rodrigo Espinosa Cabral " Or simpler, forget the name and just use the email address: approve ****** subscribe ******-l a9411177@babel.ufsm.br -- Regards, -*Sue*- From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 22:08:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05718; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA05708 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id BAA11984 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 01:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id EAA25913; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 04:29:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA18395; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 04:29:21 -0400 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 04:29:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeffrey Kaplan To: Majordomo Users Subject: Re: Prob with too long "approve" statement In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2 Jul 1998, Tom Poczman wrote: ; approve listpasswd subscribe national-records-mgt-network ; **** Address already subscribed to national-records-mgt-network ; ; **** Command '' not recognized. ; end ; END OF COMMANDS sounds like your mailer is wrapping the line. Split the line yourself like this: approve listpasswd subscribe listname \ address ; ; I have heard that there is a switch or a syntax that allows you ; includecommands logically as one line even though that physically they are ; typed in as seperate lines - this syntax is a slash ( / or \ ) - dont know ; which ??!! Is this so ?? It's the backslash. Space-backslash, actually, unless you need to split a word. -- Jeffrey Kaplan <*> I'm set up for PGP. Are you? jkapllan@world.std.com <*> There is only one "l" in my name. There is no need to copy to me via email a newsgroup follow-up. The World does not necessarily agree with my opinions. "The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace... it failed. In the year of The Shadow War it became something greater, our last best hope... for victory. The year is 2260, the place: Babylon 5." (Cmdr. Ivanova, B5 Third Season Opening Narrative) From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 22:13:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05744; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA05734 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk (euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk [138.250.48.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA16928 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 06:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nassau.pegasus.cranfield.ac.uk ([138.250.1.183]) by euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) id 0ys5j6-0002JR-00; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:18:08 +0100 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:17:59 +0100 (BST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-Sender: cc047@nassau.pegasus.cranfield.ac.uk Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: Tom Poczman cc: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prob with too long "approve" statement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: Cranfield University Computer Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2 Jul 1998, Tom Poczman wrote: > approve listpasswd subscribe national-records-mgt-network > cnorthwo@mail.newcastle.edu.au > > The above is all on one line, then the next line has an "end" to it It isn't all on one line. I don't know what is putting in the line breaks but you might do better by using explicit line breaks with the \ for continuation lines. > The error message I get is the following > > approve listpasswd subscribe national-records-mgt-network > **** Address already subscribed to national-records-mgt-network > > **** Command '' not recognized. > end > END OF COMMANDS > > The above error message seems to recognise that > is a command that majordomo should > interpret, and is not considered as part of the original single approve > command line. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826 Cranfield Computer Centre FAX 751 814 J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice. From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 22:15:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05806; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA05778 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moat.pweh.com (moat.pweh.com [192.54.250.131]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA21317 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by moat.pweh.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06700 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:55:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from drawbridge.eh.pweh.com(191.29.71.250) by moat.pweh.com via smap (4.0a) id xma006690; Fri, 3 Jul 98 17:55:34 -0400 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by drawbridge.eh.pweh.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12868 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:55:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fs17101.eh.pweh.com(191.29.171.1) by drawbridge.eh.pweh.com via smap (4.0a) id xma012864; Fri, 3 Jul 98 17:55:21 -0400 Received: from pweh.com by fs17101.eh.pweh.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA27376; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:55:16 -0400 Message-ID: <359D5345.94C3BDA7@pweh.com> Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 17:55:18 -0400 From: "Donald E. Merusi" Reply-To: meruside@pweh.com Organization: Pratt & Whitney MIS X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Help with Majordomo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I would appreciate it if anyone can tell me where the "segmentation fault" error is comming from: The original message was received at Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:49:38 -0400 from c081594@localhost ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- "|/pw/data/majordomo/wrapper majordomo -l wss-n" (unrecoverable error) (expanded from: wss-n-request) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Message delivered to mailing list wss-n-request Segmentation Fault 554 "|/pw/data/majordomo/wrapper majordomo -l wss-n"... unknown mailer error 139 ----- Original message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: by fs17101.eh.pweh.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA27324; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:49:38 -0400 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:49:38 -0400 From: c081594 ( 0 Merusi_Don x3970 B-000 ) Message-Id: <199807032149.RAA27324@fs17101.eh.pweh.com> Apparently-To: wss-n-request content-length: 5 help -- Don Merusi Pratt & Whitney MIS From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 22:15:20 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA06006; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA05998 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adl0075.baarnie.tafe.sa.edu.au (adl0075.tafe.sa.edu.au [143.92.1.75]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA10552 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adl0075 (tomp@adl0075 [143.92.1.75]) by adl0075.baarnie.tafe.sa.edu.au with SMTP (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.7.1) id HAA23931; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:55:50 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:55:50 +0930 (CST) From: Tom Poczman X-Sender: tomp@adl0075 To: Jeff Lasman cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Any way to restrict a list? In-Reply-To: <35A07ABA.2561FD3F@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk There is an option in the listname.config which says the following: subscribe=open Chamge this to subscribe=closed and the list owner will have to approve all of those who wish to join the list by using the administrative password, and with the following command: approve listpasswd listname username@domainname cheers Tom On Mon, 6 Jul 1998, Jeff Lasman wrote: > As some have already pointed out, many of us who are NOT unix-users, not > majordomo-owners, but only list-owners, never get the documentation. > > Others of us, not having any experience with any unix commands or > systems, probably have access, but don't have any idea what the > documentation says. > > And then, majordomo-owners who do know what to do (or certainly should) > make their own jobs a bit easier by directing people to this list > instead of teaching them. > > I haven't read the list faq (but will, if someone would be so kind as to > direct me to it); I hope it tells people (near the top ) where the > majordomo documentation can be found. > > Jeff > > Rich Pieri wrote: > > This question is asked repeatedly. > > > > Does anyone bother to actually read the documentation that comes with > > Majordomo? > -- > Jeff Lasman > "Publisher of the FREE InterestingTimes computer-industry newsletter. > To subscribe, write "subscribe InterestingTimes" > (without the quotes) in the body of your email. > From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 22:15:40 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05905; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peak.org (PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA05897 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (sechrest@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peak.org (8.8.5/8.6.7) with ESMTP id VAA28228; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807080416.VAA28228@peak.org> To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 07 Jul 1998 20:45:12 PDT. Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 21:16:29 -0700 From: John Sechrest Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thank you for the outline, it is very useful. I agree that a fix to majordomo to use DBM or some other optimization is probably a good thing. I am very curious how you do the mail bounce automation. Chuq Von Rospach writes: % At 5:10 PM -0700 7/7/98, John Sechrest wrote: % % > Specifically, one list has 130,000 addresses on it. % > another has 10,000 addresses on it. % > % > All of my current lists are below 1000, so I have no % > experience with large lists. % % I run multiple lists > 50,000 users now, plus a few hundred lists % between 10-50,000, all on the same machine. % % With majordomo, large lists are pretty straightforward. There are a % couple of places that'll bite you: % % 1) delivery side. make sure you use bulk_mailer or some other delivery % optimizer. I have very good results with bulk_mailer doing the batch % splitting. % % 2) delivery side. You can overwhelm your system with delivery attempts. % you'll have to figure out how many simultaneous sendmail (or whatever) % connections you can handle, and then set up your system to stay below % that. That is easier said than done, since 99% of sendmail's load % balancing stuff is to keep INCOMING connections from overwhelming % servers, and is of small use outgoing. % % 2a) Hint one: set up all of your -outgoing aliases through bulkmail, % and feed bulkmail the "-ODeliveryMode=queueonly" option (I'm assuming % sendmail 8.x here. You *definitely* want sendmail 8.8 or later for % fixes to queue/load interactions). That sends outgoing mail into the % queue but doesn't immediately try to deliver it, so you don't magically % find 300 sendmails running after a large batch. % % 2b) hint two: use a cron job to spawn sendmails. I have a shell script % that goes off every minute. It checks to see how many sendmail's are % currently in the process table, and if it's below a given number, % spawns a bunch (for my big machine, I allow 100 sendmails at once, and % under 90 sendmails running, spawn five a minute). Don't try to tune % using the sendmail command line, you'll never get things clean. You % want a system, when mail starts flowing, to explode to high gear and % then level off cold when you hit your useful maximums, so it won't % thrash. That'll maximize your output. % % 2c) use a moderately short but noticable delay before retry. I use "O % MinQueueAge=20m". that keeps all those hundreds of sendmails from % thrashing over trying to redeliver mail, but doesn't hold mail too % long. % % 2d) use multiple mail queues. After mail's sat for a while (on my site, % 12 hours), it goes to a second queue that's processed a lot less often % (about once an hour instead of constant). After 3 days, to a third % queue that's processed half a dozen times a day. I use a 7 day bounce. % If it hasn't been delivered in 12 hours, it's not urgent, so you don't % need to waste cycles retrying, but you still want it to go out once the % system returns. After 3-4 days of downtime, you're basically just % hoping the system comes back... This keeps the main queue from growing % too large, minimizing the thrashing of all of those sendmails. % % 2e) tune majordomo so you don't have too many parallel admin requests % running. I have mine cut out at Loadaverge 4. you can get lock failures % and other problems if too many of these go off at once, because once % you get a really large list, most of your admin requests (sub/unsub) % are aimed at that list. and... % % 3) incoming mail: since incoming and non-bulk_mailer mail is delivered % immediately, it takes priority over outgoing mail that's merely queued % (in 2a). that's good, in general. But administrative updates start % taking longe,r and longer, and longer.... a 50,000 user mail list has a % subscriber list file about a megabyte long. 130,000 will be around % 2.5-3 meg. Majordomo, when it updates, has to sequentially read/write % these files to add or delete addresses, so it slows badly as it scales % to large address lists. It's not uncommon for me to see 50-90 second % transactions on my larger lists (this is why 2e exists -- and set your % shlock timeouts to HUGE values in majordomo.cf. Really huge. But use % load averages to keep parallel access down, so minimize thrashing, so % you don't often need the long timeouts. But you will...). % % This is one weakness in majordomo. I've looked at replacing the % subscriber list with a dbm file, and then teaching bulkmailer and other % routines like which/who to read from it, so that updates are closer to % simultaneous, but haven't done that yet. That's a future.... but since % I expect some lists to be pushing 300,000 by year end, I think I'll % need it. Sequential reading and writing of a flat file just doesn't % scale, and there's only so much you can do with faster hardware. % % 4) Plan on some kind of bounce automation, or you'll slowly go crazy. % Look into it before you wake up to 1,500 bounces a day, no after.... % % The only gotcha I think isn't obvious is the issues surrounding the % update time for add/drop to a large subscriber list. the outgoing stuff % is pretty straight forward. And until you live with huge bounce lists % every day, it's easy to think bounce processing can wait... (it's my % next project) % % -- % Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) % Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) % Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) % + ----- John Sechrest . Helping people use PEAK - . computers and the Internet Public Electronic . more effectively Access to Knowledge,Inc . 850 SW 15th Street . Internet: sechrest@peak.org Corvallis Oregon 97331 . (541) 754-7325 . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 22:29:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA10700; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adl0075.baarnie.tafe.sa.edu.au (adl0075.tafe.sa.edu.au [143.92.1.75]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA10693 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adl0075 (tomp@adl0075 [143.92.1.75]) by adl0075.baarnie.tafe.sa.edu.au with SMTP (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.7.1) id OAA28142; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:52:10 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:52:10 +0930 (CST) From: Tom Poczman X-Sender: tomp@adl0075 To: Jeffrey Kaplan cc: Majordomo Users Subject: Re: Prob with too long "approve" statement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Many thanks to those that have reponded to my call for help. Appreciate the many,many reponses. cheers Tom On Fri, 3 Jul 1998, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote: > On Thu, 2 Jul 1998, Tom Poczman wrote: > > ; approve listpasswd subscribe national-records-mgt-network > ; **** Address already subscribed to national-records-mgt-network > ; > ; **** Command '' not recognized. > ; end > ; END OF COMMANDS > > sounds like your mailer is wrapping the line. Split the line yourself > like this: > > approve listpasswd subscribe listname \ > address > > ; > ; I have heard that there is a switch or a syntax that allows you > ; includecommands logically as one line even though that physically they are > ; typed in as seperate lines - this syntax is a slash ( / or \ ) - dont know > ; which ??!! Is this so ?? > > It's the backslash. Space-backslash, actually, unless you need to > split a word. > > -- > Jeffrey Kaplan <*> I'm set up for PGP. Are you? > jkapllan@world.std.com <*> There is only one "l" in my name. > There is no need to copy to me via email a newsgroup follow-up. > The World does not necessarily agree with my opinions. > > "The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace... it failed. In > the year of The Shadow War it became something greater, our last best > hope... for victory. The year is 2260, the place: Babylon 5." (Cmdr. > Ivanova, B5 Third Season Opening Narrative) > > > From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 23:15:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA11518; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk (euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk [138.250.48.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA11511 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from annex-1-pt6.ccc.cranfield.ac.uk ([138.250.1.229] helo=arpad.thegreen.private ident=cc047) by euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) id 0ytnKs-00015O-00; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:04:11 +0100 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:04:08 +0100 (BST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-Sender: cc047@arpad.thegreen.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: Wayne Burkin cc: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Simple Mailing List? In-Reply-To: <35A0746B.A24CC184@cheerful.com> Message-ID: Organization: Cranfield University Computer Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 6 Jul 1998, Wayne Burkin wrote: > Is there any software which can be used like Oulook and Netscape, but > can supress all the "TO" email addresses? I have a mailing list but no > way of sending mails out???? Any standards complient emailer should be able to do it (so I'm not sure that it would be possible with Outlook), but one has a built in feature to make it easy. Pine has an Lcc (List CC) which puts the right stuff into a To: line while treated everything else as Bcc. PS: What majordomo and this list means by mailing list, is not really what you seem to mean in your question. You are talking about address book lists, while, for example, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com is the sort of mailing list we are talking about. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826 Cranfield Computer Centre FAX 751 814 J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice. From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 23:20:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA11607; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk (euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk [138.250.48.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA11600 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from annex-1-pt6.ccc.cranfield.ac.uk ([138.250.1.229] helo=arpad.thegreen.private ident=cc047) by euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) id 0ytnRi-0005l1-00; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:11:14 +0100 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:11:11 +0100 (BST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-Sender: cc047@arpad.thegreen.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: "CHAN, Sai Bun" cc: "'Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.Com'" Subject: Re: Can't direct majordomo mail to single Mail Hosts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: Cranfield University Computer Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 6 Jul 1998, CHAN, Sai Bun wrote: > In our site, we have Two mail hosts for mail redundent & share loading, by > using MX record. But, we only install the majordomo in one of them in order > to maintain the consistence of the mailing list. As a result, when the > majordomo mail is directed to mail-hosts that not installed majordomo. User > will not get any messages from them. So, pls advice. This really depends on how your MTAs are set up. With just about any MTA (including sendmail) you can have multiple alias files. On the host without the majordomo stuff have an alias file that redirects everything to the other host. On the host with majordomo, have an alias file that actually does the piping, etc. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826 Cranfield Computer Centre FAX 751 814 J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice. From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 7 23:29:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA12136; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pi3.informatik.uni-mannheim.de (pi3.informatik.uni-mannheim.de [134.155.48.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA12129 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragonfly.informatik.uni-mannheim.de (dragonfly [134.155.48.87]) by pi3.informatik.uni-mannheim.de (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA13495 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:26:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dragonfly (leideck@localhost) by dragonfly.informatik.uni-mannheim.de (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA03193 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:26:45 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199807080626.IAA03193@dragonfly.informatik.uni-mannheim.de> X-Authentication-Warning: dragonfly.informatik.uni-mannheim.de: leideck owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: sendmail-8.9.0 and majordomo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 08:26:45 +0200 From: Wolfgang Leideck Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello. Following problem has arised since i changed sendmail into sendmail-8.9.0. All mailings to our mailling list are stored into the archive but no user gets any mail. I have changed the permission to permit group write access but this won't work. Are there any other hints that i have don't seen? Sendmail and majordomo are running under solaris 2.x. Here an excerpt from my alias file aodb: "|/opt/majordomo/wrapper resend -l aodb -h pi3.informatik.uni-mannheim.de aodb-outgoing" aodb-outgoing: :include:/opt/majordomo/lists/aodb, "|/opt/majordomo/wrapper dige st -r -C -l aodb-digest aodb-digest-outgoing", "|/opt/majordomo/wrapper archive2 .pl -a -m -f /opt/majordomo/lists/aodb.archive" Thanks for helping Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Leideck * University of Mannheim * Dep. PI III D7,1-4 * Raum 409 * D 68161 Mannheim Phone: +49 621 292 8815 * Fax: +49 621 292 8818 Email: leideck@pi3.informatik.uni-mannheim.de From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 00:30:20 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA12779; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from praline.no.neosoft.com (praline.no.NeoSoft.COM [206.27.160.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id AAA12772 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 27347 invoked by uid 10086); 8 Jul 1998 07:22:52 -0000 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:22:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Ray Jones To: Dean Brandt cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: message fronter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 5 Jul 1998, Dean Brandt wrote: > In my config file for a list I have: > > message_fronter << END > ================= > Customer Bulletin > ================= > END > But no messages posted to the list ever have this on them...any > ideas why? It may have something to do with the fact that lines beginning with a "-" denote a blank line. I THINK a line beginning with "--" is SUPPOSED to then start with a single "-", but I'm willing to bet all those "--" confuse the heck out of majordomo. -- Regards, "Big Ray the Cab Driver" Jones - Licensed Tour Guide ICQ UIN 1473313 Author of "The Complete Idiot's Travel Guide to New Orleans" ISBN 0-02-862303-7 Disseminating info about New Orleans & Louisiana via my web page at http://www.neosoft.com/~rayjones/welcome.html or you can join "Big Ray's" New Orleans Mailing List by sending: subscribe noml To: majordomo@communique.net From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 02:29:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id CAA15713; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onera.onera.fr (onera.onera.fr [144.204.65.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA15706 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dota-ultra1.onera (dota-ultra1 [125.40.4.121]) by onera.onera.fr (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA19809 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:23:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by dota-ultra1.onera (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA12825; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:25:29 +0200 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:25:29 +0200 From: V.Lucas@onera.fr (Vincent LUCAS) Message-Id: <199807080925.LAA12825@dota-ultra1.onera> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Split_Archive Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I 'd like to split my archive. I 've read the /Doc/majordomo.ora file and it deals with the split_archive.pl Perl script. I didn't find it in the 1.94.4 release. Where can I get it. Thanks in advance. Vincent LUCAS From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 03:15:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA16438; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA16430 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id GAA16248; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:06:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA15330; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:06:25 -0400 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:06:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeffrey Kaplan To: Majordomo Users Subject: Re: message fronter In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Ray Jones wrote: ; On Sun, 5 Jul 1998, Dean Brandt wrote: ; > message_fronter << END ; > ================= ; > Customer Bulletin ; > ================= ; > END ; It may have something to do with the fact that lines beginning with a "-" ; denote a blank line. I THINK a line beginning with "--" is SUPPOSED to ; then start with a single "-", but I'm willing to bet all those "--" ; confuse the heck out of majordomo. Those look like '=' signs to me. -- Jeffrey Kaplan <*> I'm set up for PGP. Are you? jkapllan@world.std.com <*> There is only one "l" in my name. There is no need to copy to me via email a newsgroup follow-up. The World does not necessarily agree with my opinions. "So, if we go down there, it blows. If we don't, it blows anyway, just a little later. It's a good thing I'm Russian. We're used to hopeless situations." (Lt. Cmdr. Ivanova, B5 "A Voice in the Wilderness II") From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 03:21:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA16370; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA16354 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id GAA16061; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA14124; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:02:16 -0400 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:02:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeffrey Kaplan To: Majordomo Users Subject: Re: Approving unsubscribed members In-Reply-To: <199807072341.TAA25179@monkman.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, Brian Monkman wrote: ; What I want to be able to do is have the option of approving some ; of these bounces without having to open up or moderate the list I ; would like to this to be seamless to the subscribers I haven't been ; able to figure out how to do this. Could someone point me in the ; right direction? Do you mean that you want certain address to be able to post to the list without being on the list? If that's the case, then you want to set up a .mod file. If you are an admin on the machine the list is on, then it's real simple. If you are not an admin on the machine (Ie, you're a customer of a service) then ask the majordomo-owner to help you set up the .mod file. -- Jeffrey Kaplan <*> I'm set up for PGP. Are you? jkapllan@world.std.com <*> There is only one "l" in my name. There is no need to copy to me via email a newsgroup follow-up. The World does not necessarily agree with my opinions. "So, if we go down there, it blows. If we don't, it blows anyway, just a little later. It's a good thing I'm Russian. We're used to hopeless situations." (Lt. Cmdr. Ivanova, B5 "A Voice in the Wilderness II") From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 04:00:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA19117; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from praline.no.neosoft.com (praline.no.NeoSoft.COM [206.27.160.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id DAA19110 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4440 invoked by uid 10086); 8 Jul 1998 11:00:37 -0000 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:00:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Ray Jones Reply-To: Ray Jones cc: Majordomo Users Subject: Re: message fronter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote: > On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Ray Jones wrote: > ; It may have something to do with the fact that lines beginning with a "-" > ; denote a blank line. I THINK a line beginning with "--" is SUPPOSED to > Those look like '=' signs to me. That it does. I thought it was two four lines of "-" instead of two lines of "=" I guess I need new glasses. -- Regards, "Big Ray the Cab Driver" Jones - Licensed Tour Guide ICQ UIN 1473313 Author of "The Complete Idiot's Travel Guide to New Orleans" ISBN 0-02-862303-7 Disseminating info about New Orleans & Louisiana via my web page at http://www.neosoft.com/~rayjones/welcome.html or you can join "Big Ray's" New Orleans Mailing List by sending: subscribe noml To: majordomo@communique.net From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 05:30:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA20878; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 05:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lince.lander.es (lince.lander.es [195.76.46.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id FAA20863 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 05:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17207 invoked from network); 8 Jul 1998 12:31:25 -0000 Received: from ppp-47-172.lander.es (HELO ppp-47-182.lander.es) (195.76.47.172) by lince.lander.es with SMTP; 8 Jul 1998 12:31:25 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980708140935.271f6ba4@lince.lander.es> X-Sender: parnal@lince.lander.es X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 14:09:35 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Pedro Arnal Puente Subject: majordomo in mac server Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello everybody I am sysadmin of a server using macintosh for mail service. Somebody is running majordomo on a macintosh? I have a 7600 with macOS 8.1 and EIMS1.2 as mail server. ...nadie nace sabiendo, pero deberia matarse aprendiendo. *Saludos Mercenarios. Pedro Arnal Puente* *Internet: parnal@lander.es************** From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 05:39:54 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA20879; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 05:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id FAA20868 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 05:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 14332 invoked by uid 3995); 8 Jul 1998 12:31:34 -0000 Message-ID: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. In-Reply-To: References: <199807080010.RAA10634@peak.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M > >With majordomo, large lists are pretty straightforward. There are a >couple of places that'll bite you: > >[long, detailed description of rather non-straightforward hoops one >must jump through to get majordomo+sendmail to work with very large >lists, which still doesn't solve all problems, e.g., bounce >handling.] Or you can switch to qmail, which neatly solves all the delivery problems, and ezmlm, which solves the list management problems. I gave up on sendmail a long time ago--it's just too inefficient. Majordomo is OK for small lists. I still use it because my largest list is only about 10k users and because, using qmail, I'm able to do reliable automatic bounce handling. But ezmlm is clearly superior in many ways, including scalability. See www.ezmlm.org and www.qmail.org for more info. >1) delivery side. make sure you use bulk_mailer or some other delivery >optimizer. I have very good results with bulk_mailer doing the batch >splitting. qmail does parallel delivery automatically. >2) delivery side. You can overwhelm your system with delivery attempts. >you'll have to figure out how many simultaneous sendmail (or whatever) >connections you can handle, and then set up your system to stay below >that. That is easier said than done, since 99% of sendmail's load >balancing stuff is to keep INCOMING connections from overwhelming >servers, and is of small use outgoing. You can tell qmail how many max local/remote deliveries and connections you want it to handle. >2a) Hint one: set up all of your -outgoing aliases through bulkmail, >and feed bulkmail the "-ODeliveryMode=queueonly" option (I'm assuming >sendmail 8.x here. You *definitely* want sendmail 8.8 or later for >fixes to queue/load interactions). That sends outgoing mail into the >queue but doesn't immediately try to deliver it, so you don't magically >find 300 sendmails running after a large batch. qmail queues everything before delivering it, and automatically limits the number of delivery processes. >2b) hint two: use a cron job to spawn sendmails. I have a shell script >that goes off every minute. It checks to see how many sendmail's are >currently in the process table, and if it's below a given number, >spawns a bunch (for my big machine, I allow 100 sendmails at once, and >under 90 sendmails running, spawn five a minute). Don't try to tune >using the sendmail command line, you'll never get things clean. You >want a system, when mail starts flowing, to explode to high gear and >then level off cold when you hit your useful maximums, so it won't >thrash. That'll maximize your output. All unnecessary with qmail, which automatically maximizes output. >2c) use a moderately short but noticable delay before retry. I use "O >MinQueueAge=20m". that keeps all those hundreds of sendmails from >thrashing over trying to redeliver mail, but doesn't hold mail too >long. qmail is smart enough not to retry too often. >2d) use multiple mail queues. After mail's sat for a while (on my site, >12 hours), it goes to a second queue that's processed a lot less often >(about once an hour instead of constant). After 3 days, to a third >queue that's processed half a dozen times a day. I use a 7 day bounce. >If it hasn't been delivered in 12 hours, it's not urgent, so you don't >need to waste cycles retrying, but you still want it to go out once the >system returns. After 3-4 days of downtime, you're basically just >hoping the system comes back... This keeps the main queue from growing >too large, minimizing the thrashing of all of those sendmails. qmail automatically retries older messages less frequently. >2e) tune majordomo so you don't have too many parallel admin requests >running. I have mine cut out at Loadaverge 4. you can get lock failures >and other problems if too many of these go off at once, because once >you get a really large list, most of your admin requests (sub/unsub) >are aimed at that list. and... ezmlm keeps lists in a database format (see http://www.ezmlm.org/FAQ-5.html#ss5.11) that can be updated very quickly, even for large lists. >3) incoming mail: since incoming and non-bulk_mailer mail is delivered >immediately, it takes priority over outgoing mail that's merely queued >(in 2a). that's good, in general. But administrative updates start >taking longe,r and longer, and longer.... a 50,000 user mail list has a >subscriber list file about a megabyte long. 130,000 will be around >2.5-3 meg. Majordomo, when it updates, has to sequentially read/write >these files to add or delete addresses, so it slows badly as it scales >to large address lists. It's not uncommon for me to see 50-90 second >transactions on my larger lists (this is why 2e exists -- and set your >shlock timeouts to HUGE values in majordomo.cf. Really huge. But use >load averages to keep parallel access down, so minimize thrashing, so >you don't often need the long timeouts. But you will...). Not a problem with ezmlm. >This is one weakness in majordomo. I've looked at replacing the >subscriber list with a dbm file, and then teaching bulkmailer and other >routines like which/who to read from it, so that updates are closer to >simultaneous, but haven't done that yet. That's a future.... but since >I expect some lists to be pushing 300,000 by year end, I think I'll >need it. Sequential reading and writing of a flat file just doesn't >scale, and there's only so much you can do with faster hardware. ezmlm already does this. >4) Plan on some kind of bounce automation, or you'll slowly go crazy. >Look into it before you wake up to 1,500 bounces a day, no after.... ezmlm already does this. It uses VERP (see ftp://koobera.math.uic.edu/www/proto/verp.txt) to keep track of all bounces. It warns users before unsubscribing them. See http://www.ezmlm.org/FAQ-5.html#ss5.30 for details. >The only gotcha I think isn't obvious is the issues surrounding the >update time for add/drop to a large subscriber list. the outgoing stuff >is pretty straight forward. And until you live with huge bounce lists >every day, it's easy to think bounce processing can wait... (it's my >next project) Luckily it's already been solved, at least if you're using qmail. I use Russ Nelson's bounce handling package with majordomo+qmail. There's a link to it on www.qmail.org. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 06:15:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA21826; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns2.mounet.com (ns2.mounet.com [206.151.76.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA21819 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webman.mounet.com (webman.mounet.com [206.151.76.72]) by ns2.mounet.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA09473 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:06:13 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980708090824.006936d8@mail.mounet.com> X-Sender: webman@mail.mounet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 09:08:24 -0400 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: WebMan at MountaiNet Subject: X-Authentication-Warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is in the header for my outgoing messages. What does it mean, and how can i get rid of it? X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.mounet.com: majrdomo set sender to majordomo-owner@mounet.com using -f In case its relevant, majordomo-owner@mounet.com is an alias that points to majordomo-owner@ns2.mounet.com ----- Josh Hill Assistant Network Admin. Web Page Development Phone: 1-888-583-7339 ext. 343 Fax: 1-540-452-2822 ----- From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 06:30:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA21950; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blkbox.com (blkbox.com [206.109.97.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA21942 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (smithd@localhost) by blkbox.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23450; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:20:21 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:20:21 -0500 (CDT) From: David Smith To: Pedro Arnal Puente cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: majordomo in mac server In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980708140935.271f6ba4@lince.lander.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Pedro Arnal Puente wrote: > I am sysadmin of a server using macintosh for mail service. > > Somebody is running majordomo on a macintosh? > > I have a 7600 with macOS 8.1 and EIMS1.2 as mail server. There are a couple of mac mailing list products, one called macjordomo which is not the same same majordomo. There is not a port of majordomo to MacOS, and it would be a feat to do it. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 07:30:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA23101; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA23092 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA22103 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:21:55 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: From: field on messages References: X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 08 Jul 1998 10:21:55 -0400 In-Reply-To: Raul Zighelboim's message of "Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:30:58 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 28 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Raul Zighelboim writes: > Sometime, I want to change the From: field of the article from the > sender to something else, for example, 'From: majordomo-owner@domain'. > Is there a way to do this ? No. Only the originator of a message is allowed to set or change originator headers like From. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNaOAgZ6VRH7BJMxHAQEHqAQAv26Opt19pqEQFG1K4EhEzIqXX2a0zPYu 6YL9++2qOo3AeSZtUEJ9FK22LjoYHs4P2xl8M2v4fqdtZRIWF3QGbDdn3EHNrRnU OiyBllAYYY5nGVosBZ04AuoZq12oSUnlMhGA9tkgnCksO380cK/QiJx/zrocISfm 6c4UFBZsa+4= =h3G5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Caution: Happy Fun Ball may Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / suddenly accelerate to dangerous Prescient Technologies, Inc. / speeds. I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 08:30:06 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA24173; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA24166 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA36576 ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:18:34 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980708140935.271f6ba4@lince.lander.es> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:51:47 -0700 To: David Smith , Pedro Arnal Puente From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: majordomo in mac server Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:20 AM -0700 7/8/98, David Smith wrote: > There are a couple of mac mailing list products, one called macjordomo > which is not the same same majordomo. There is not a port of majordomo to > MacOS, and it would be a feat to do it. If you want to run mailing lists on a Mac, use LetterRip Pro from Fog City. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 08:45:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA24157; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA24143 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA36570 ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:18:31 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> References: <199807080010.RAA10634@peak.org> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:50:59 -0700 To: Dave Sill , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:31 AM -0700 7/8/98, Dave Sill wrote: > > Or you can switch to qmail, which neatly solves all the delivery > problems, and ezmlm, which solves the list management problems. qmail happens to also come with the qmail authors, which is more than enough reason for me why I'll never go near it. But your mileage may vary. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 09:15:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA25130; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA25123 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA25072 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:09:11 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. References: <199807080010.RAA10634@peak.org> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 08 Jul 1998 12:09:11 -0400 In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:50:59 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 29 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Chuq Von Rospach writes: > qmail happens to also come with the qmail authors, which is more than > enough reason for me why I'll never go near it. But your mileage may > vary. *snicker* Really, I have to wonder what Dave is doing here, what as he does not use Majordomo himself (this is majordomo-users, after all). -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNaOZmp6VRH7BJMxHAQEChAP/X2sHXFmgJWIkRnIi1xAEzT6WNz72Vbob nPmIV7crIJG9Nq68WHvg0i7HSTYTgcNbO7w27IZNtCYU3c/Yk+Hir1TRVMAtkbvY mzAYt5mMRbWXVVG0vOCigqpzbA3bzR67UGnsd8xBIq3ece15MxXsliIDAfHQ6i2I gVkp1ourp8c= =6J6G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Warning: pregnant women, the Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / elderly, and children under 10 Prescient Technologies, Inc. / should avoid prolonged exposure to I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / Happy Fun Ball. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 09:30:44 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA25342; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eclectic.kluge.net (eclectic.kluge.net [206.114.160.248]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA25335 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:20:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eclectic.kluge.net (felicity@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eclectic.kluge.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA01986 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:22:26 -0400 Message-Id: <199807081622.MAA01986@eclectic.kluge.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: mishap with MD 1.94.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 12:22:26 -0400 From: Theo Van Dinter Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a mailing list which is configured with restrict_post for a specific set of users. One of these users sent out a message on Monday afternoon (no problem so far), but on Thursday, one of the recipients mail servers sent the mail (with only an additional "X-originally-to" (and from) header) back to the mailing list. Since majordomo saw the same from header, it allowed the mail to send back out to the list, and this caused a 5-8 message resending loop. Is there a way to fix this easily within MD? I'm thinking of moving the majordomo server to a non-incoming-mail accessible system so that I can limit which network(s) can use majordomo. Thanks. -- Randomly Generated Tagline: STICK \'stik\ n. 1: A boomerang than doesn't work. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 09:36:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA25178; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id JAA25171 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17678 invoked by uid 3995); 8 Jul 1998 16:11:42 -0000 Message-ID: <19980708161142.17677.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: From: field on messages In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Raul Zighelboim writes: > >> Sometime, I want to change the From: field of the article from the >> sender to something else, for example, 'From: majordomo-owner@domain'. > >> Is there a way to do this ? > >No. Only the originator of a message is allowed to set or change >originator headers like From. Wrong. Resend doesn't munge messages in transit, it receives a message and generates a new one. To clarify: RFC 822 says From can only be set by the sender of the message, but list messages aren't sent by the originator directly to the subscribers. Instead, they're usually sent to the list resender; in the case of Majordomo, it's "resend". Resend then munges the message any way it wants (it's now the originator of a new message) and sends it on to the subscribers or bounces it. To answer the question: no, Majordomo doesn't support this out-of-the-box. If you want it, your best best is to patch "resend". -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 09:44:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA25610; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk (euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk [138.250.48.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA25602 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nassau.pegasus.cranfield.ac.uk ([138.250.1.183]) by euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) id 0ytx9l-0003iJ-00; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:33:21 +0100 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:33:19 +0100 (BST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-Sender: cc047@nassau.pegasus.cranfield.ac.uk Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Dave Sill , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: Cranfield University Computer Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > Or you can switch to qmail, which neatly solves all the delivery > > problems, and ezmlm, which solves the list management problems. > > qmail happens to also come with the qmail authors, which is more than > enough reason for me why I'll never go near it. But your mileage may > vary. Check at Exim http://www.exim.org/ which has all of the desirable properties of qmail discussed in this thread, plus extremely helpful authors. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826 Cranfield Computer Centre FAX 751 814 J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 10:00:17 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA26450; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk (euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk [138.250.48.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA26435 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nassau.pegasus.cranfield.ac.uk ([138.250.1.183]) by euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) id 0ytxWa-0002l8-00; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:56:56 +0100 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:56:54 +0100 (BST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-Sender: cc047@nassau.pegasus.cranfield.ac.uk Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: Dave Sill cc: Rich Pieri , Majordomo Users List Subject: Re: From: field on messages In-Reply-To: <19980708161142.17677.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Message-ID: Organization: Cranfield University Computer Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Protocol cop Rich Pieri wrote: > >Only the originator of a message is allowed to set or change > >originator headers like From. On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: > Wrong. Resend doesn't munge messages in transit, it receives a message > and generates a new one. [...] (it's now the originator of a new > message) Oh no, not again! May I ask that anyone wishing to jump into this debate read the list archives first, and only post if they feel that they have somethng to say which has not been said before. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826 Cranfield Computer Centre FAX 751 814 J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 10:12:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA25726; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id JAA25709 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18053 invoked by uid 3995); 8 Jul 1998 16:39:44 -0000 Message-ID: <19980708163944.18052.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: Rich Pieri Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. In-Reply-To: References: <199807080010.RAA10634@peak.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Chuq Von Rospach writes: > >> qmail happens to also come with the qmail authors, which is more than >> enough reason for me why I'll never go near it. But your mileage may >> vary. > >*snicker* >Really, I have to wonder what Dave is doing here, what as he does not use >Majordomo himself (this is majordomo-users, after all). *chuckle* I *do* use Majordomo--as I said in my reply to Chuq--for relatively small lists. I just don't think it's as good as ezmlm for large lists. This isn't an advocacy list, is it? It *is* OK to hint that Majordomo might not be the ultimate list manager in all circumstances, isn't it? -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 10:17:44 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA27019; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA27012 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ben by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 1.950 #1) for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com id 0ytvk3-0000e2-00; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:02:43 +0100 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:02:43 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Smithurst To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: X-Authentication-Warning In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980708090824.006936d8@mail.mounet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, WebMan at MountaiNet wrote: > This is in the header for my outgoing messages. What does it mean, and how > can i get rid of it? > > X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.mounet.com: majrdomo set sender to > majordomo-owner@mounet.com using -f It means majrdomo is not a trusted user, as far as Sendmail is concerned. Dunno how to fix it in sendmail, but I'm sure it's in the FAQ or docs somewhere.... -- Ben Smithurst From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 10:22:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA26211; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk (euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk [138.250.48.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA26194 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nassau.pegasus.cranfield.ac.uk ([138.250.1.183]) by euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) id 0ytxQy-0001Nk-00; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:51:08 +0100 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:50:57 +0100 (BST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-Sender: cc047@nassau.pegasus.cranfield.ac.uk Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: Theo Van Dinter cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: mishap with MD 1.94.3 In-Reply-To: <199807081622.MAA01986@eclectic.kluge.net> Message-ID: Organization: Cranfield University Computer Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Theo Van Dinter wrote: > I have a mailing list which is configured with restrict_post for a > specific set of users. One of these users sent out a message on Monday > afternoon (no problem so far), but on Thursday, one of the recipients > mail servers sent the mail (with only an additional "X-originally-to" > (and from) header) back to the mailing list. Yikes! Somebody has mail very misconfigured. First remove the user from your list. Second put something in your taboo_headers or body to stop this sort of thing (It would take a closer look at the message to see exactly what.) Third shout VERY LOUDLY at the adminsistrator of the site that is feeding messages back in that way. They have no business being on the net if they do stuff like that. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826 Cranfield Computer Centre FAX 751 814 J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 10:30:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA26754; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparc.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (tan7.NCR.COM [192.127.94.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA26743 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ssol020.sandiegoca.ncr.com (ssol020.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM [153.64.69.48]) by sparc.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA22279 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:08:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Houle Received: (from bhoule@localhost) by ssol020.sandiegoca.ncr.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA28352 for majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807081708.KAA28352@ssol020.sandiegoca.ncr.com> Subject: Re: Approving unsubscribed members To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:08:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: from "Jeffrey Kaplan" at Jul 8, 98 06:02:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jeffrey Kaplan said: > > Do you mean that you want certain address to be able to post to the > list without being on the list? If that's the case, then you want to > set up a .mod file. If you are an admin on the machine the list is > on, then it's real simple. Or a -mod file! Using a dotted name instantly locks you in to requiring root access to maintain. But if you make it just another list, you can maintain remotely via Majordomo (keep it noadvertised if you don't want people to see it). Sorry for the rehash; this has been suggested several times, but still the advice to "create a .xxx" file persists.... --bill From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 10:36:45 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA26497; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA26489 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA26599 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:01:46 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: From: field on messages References: <19980708161142.17677.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 08 Jul 1998 13:01:47 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Wed, 8 Jul 98 12:11:42 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 30 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > To clarify: RFC 822 says From can only be set by the sender of the > message, To clarify, RFC 822 says From can only be set by the *ORIGINATOR* of the message; the sender may be a completely different agent. The originator of a message is the person or agent responsible for its creation. Majordomo does not create messages sent to the lists it manages; it is not the originator in such cases, it is only a sender, and thus not allowed to modify originator headers such as From. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNaOl+J6VRH7BJMxHAQFfnwP/STPV8XSERlVeLLPvsZbLNp4Z5cXW2ae9 fJ7rQnAnC5/tcI+lo/GRi57wc5hh3+VwTkScoMWwNofUXsU2LqXDyXtAdCt+aw4e sXzIuKOsPiC0PQgm0bq0uNczDkE/80BBjPbBilFAROUcdskfuFv8YCgGg2ckblxK m2xGX5ClkaM= =xkSS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Do not use Happy Fun Ball on Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / concrete. Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 11:15:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA28977; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA28968 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 19450 invoked by uid 3995); 8 Jul 1998 18:09:07 -0000 Message-ID: <19980708180907.19449.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: Rich Pieri Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: From: field on messages In-Reply-To: References: <19980708161142.17677.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >To clarify, RFC 822 says From can only be set by the *ORIGINATOR* of the >message; the sender may be a completely different agent. The originator of >a message is the person or agent responsible for its creation. Majordomo >does not create messages sent to the lists it manages; it is not the >originator in such cases, it is only a sender, and thus not allowed to >modify originator headers such as From. I disagree. My interpretation is that list mail sent via a resender consists of two different messages: one from the originator to the resender, and one from the resender to the subscribers. They may look similar sometimes, but they're not identical. The difference is that the resender can do whatever munging/filtering the list owner desires. If you don't buy this argument, then digestifying, adding/modifying Reply-To, etc., are all illegal. That may be OK with you, but these are common practices. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 11:29:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA29634; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA29627 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA29923; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807081830.OAA29923@cis.ohio-state.edu> To: WebMan at MountaiNet cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: X-Authentication-Warning In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Jul 1998 09:08:24 EDT." <3.0.3.32.19980708090824.006936d8@mail.mounet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 14:30:21 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >This is in the header for my outgoing messages. What does it mean, and how >can i get rid of it? > >X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.mounet.com: majrdomo set sender to >majordomo-owner@mounet.com using -f Read the Majordomo FAQ. --Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 11:36:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA29615; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA29608 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA29890 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807081830.OAA29890@cis.ohio-state.edu> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: sendmail-8.9.0 and majordomo In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Jul 1998 08:26:45 +0200." <199807080626.IAA03193@dragonfly.informatik.uni-mannheim.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 14:29:40 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Following problem has arised since i changed sendmail into sendmail-8.9.0. >All mailings to our mailling list are stored into the archive but no user >gets any mail. I have changed the permission to permit group write access but >this won't work. You want to _take away_ group write access, not add it. This is explained in the current Majordomo FAQ. --Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 11:43:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA29193; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id LAA29185 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ceo.pcgaming.com (dialin1367.toronto.globalserve.net [209.90.135.96]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA29356 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:45:44 -0700 (PDT) From: php3@hadez.dyn.ml.org Received: from localhost (php3@localhost) by ceo.pcgaming.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA00716 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:35:45 -0400 Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:35:40 -0400 (EDT) To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: HELP PLEASE! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a few mailing lists setup on one of our servers and recently a client asked us if there was a way to make the SENDERS address not equal to our machines name? For sample, he sent an email to newsletter@hisdomain.com to subscribe to the list named "newsletter". He got a response back from majordomo saying it worked, however the sender was majordomo@hangar18.digitalhome.com. It would be nice if that SENDER address was modifiable, any ideas? From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 11:45:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA00291; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA00277 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA08229; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:42:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807081842.NAA08229@dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com> Received: from nbw-nj9-56.ix.netcom.com(198.211.225.184) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma008150; Wed Jul 8 13:42:20 1998 X-Sender: hot2trot@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 14:28:55 -0400 To: WebMan at MountaiNet From: hot2trot@bigfoot.com (Burt Juda) Subject: Re: X-Authentication-Warning Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980708090824.006936d8@mail.mounet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:08 AM 7/8/98 -0400, WebMan at MountaiNet wrote: >This is in the header for my outgoing messages. What does it mean, and how >can i get rid of it? > >X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.mounet.com: majrdomo set sender to >majordomo-owner@mounet.com using -f > >In case its relevant, majordomo-owner@mounet.com is an alias that points to >majordomo-owner@ns2.mounet.com Assuming that the files in the $listdir directory are owned by "majordom", you can add "majordom" to sendmail's list of "trusted users". An Alternative is to make "daemon" be the owner of the files, since sendmail runs *AS* daemon and that IS already a trusted user. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 11:53:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA29718; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA29688 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [194.112.51.35] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0ytz1y-00060Z-00; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:33:26 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980708193338.008241f0@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 19:33:38 +0100 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> qmail happens to also come with the qmail authors, which is more than >> enough reason for me why I'll never go near it. But your mileage may >> vary. > >Check at Exim http://www.exim.org/ which has all of the desirable >properties of qmail discussed in this thread, plus extremely helpful >authors. Maybe there should be a smile in there :) We've been using majordomo for a couple+ years now and at the start of that time were choosing an MTA. Qmail looked very promising but we decided against it for exactly the same reasons Chuq did. So we went with version 0.53 of Exim and haven't looked back. I can't think of anything it doesn't do as well or (more normally) considerably better than sendmail and the quality of support in the documentation and the exim-users list is often astounding. That said - Dan (qmail's author) seems to have mellowed a little and qmail is certainly a good MTA. I'd say Exim for ease of use/support and qmail for the more security conscious and monster mail systems (though exim's no slouch and possibly better in many average systems). Either of them is a clear winner over sendmail on performance, ease of configuration and things like being able to do away with the wrapper (no setuid requirement) and being able to properly protect the -outgoing (and other private) aliases rather than just obfuscate it. Manar From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 12:00:16 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA00949; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blkbox.com (blkbox.com [206.109.97.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA00942 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (smithd@localhost) by blkbox.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20022 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:55:22 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:55:22 -0500 (CDT) From: David Smith To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: addlist script updated Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My add_list scripts for creating and removing lists on a majordomo server has been updated to 1.1.3. See http://www.blkbox.com/~smithd/majordomo for the readme and archive. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 12:15:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA01566; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.wizvax.net ([199.181.141.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA01559 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uymfdlvk (ts2p13.wizvax.net [204.97.162.78]) by mailgate.wizvax.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.Beta3) with SMTP id PAA18614 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:15:51 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980708151246.008574a0@krusty-motorsports.com> X-Sender: rweltynw@krusty-motorsports.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 15:12:46 -0400 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Richard Welty Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 05:33 PM 7/8/98 +0100, Jeffrey Goldberg wrote: >Check at Exim http://www.exim.org/ which has all of the desirable >properties of qmail discussed in this thread, plus extremely helpful >authors. i concur. while my biggest lists are only in the range of a few thousand, exim does an amazingly efficient job of moving the mail off of my Linux K6-166 -- Richard Welty NeWorks Networking, Inc. 518-244-9675 rwelty@neworks.net http://www.neworks.net/ From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 12:22:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA01557; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA01550 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20751 invoked by uid 500); 8 Jul 1998 19:15:10 -0000 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. References: <199807080010.RAA10634@peak.org> From: Russ Allbery In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:50:59 -0700" Date: 08 Jul 1998 12:15:10 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 22 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > qmail happens to also come with the qmail authors, which is more than > enough reason for me why I'll never go near it. But your mileage may > vary. Contrary to popular believe, the DJB tarball is, in fact, *optional*, and you are not required to install the simulator on your system to run qmail. It's recommended for some applications, but as DJB is not in fact open source and cannot be compiled with standard compilers, not to mention being difficult to insert through your floppy drive, I recommend to most people that they install the pure C version of the package that contains no biological parts. Hope this helps. ObMajordomo: for details on how to get Majordomo working under qmail. I use it and am extremely happy with it. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 12:30:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA00851; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA00825 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA30417 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:53:27 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE! References: X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 08 Jul 1998 14:53:27 -0400 In-Reply-To: php3@hadez.dyn.ml.org's message of "Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:35:40 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 27 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- php3 writes: > I have a few mailing lists setup on one of our servers and recently a > client asked us if there was a way to make the SENDERS address not equal > to our machines name? By definition, Sender *must* be a mailbox which includes your machine's canonical name. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNaPAJp6VRH7BJMxHAQEaswP/ROA2lNcHeEUjttg3Njx4lFZr1vwHoWix tzsJIg6SB/Mrhe0LKFHdUKaJ7/Nq9c4igAS9s5+zteqNQS/a4VgZavtvM8Bfjwpp OGMFHZNce5SOQbUn2SjBGYv00AZawSLt69ZT38i1rNO8bCMh580TvBAnZPVCdsA+ 4RWpcMs94n0= =SCFP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / get away immediately. Seek shelter Prescient Technologies, Inc. / and cover head. I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 12:30:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA02145; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.96.87]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA02138 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 98 15:29:51 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: From: field on messages Organization: SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9807081529.aa22090@fsm-1.fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Didn't we just argue about this one last week, folks? Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 12:39:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA00442; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:45:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA00433 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA08839 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:47:22 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807081847.NAA08839@dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com> Received: from nbw-nj9-56.ix.netcom.com(198.211.225.184) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma008819; Wed Jul 8 13:47:07 1998 X-Sender: hot2trot@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 14:47:06 -0400 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: hot2trot@bigfoot.com (Burt Juda) Subject: Re: From: field on messages In-Reply-To: References: <19980708161142.17677.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:01 PM 7/8/98 -0400, Rich Pieri wrote: >> To clarify: RFC 822 says From can only be set by the sender of the >> message, >To clarify, RFC 822 says From can only be set by the *ORIGINATOR* of the >message; the sender may be a completely different agent. The originator of >a message is the person or agent responsible for its creation. Majordomo >does not create messages sent to the lists it manages; it is not the >originator in such cases, it is only a sender, and thus not allowed to >modify originator headers such as From. Sorry to disagree ... the resend process creates a NEW message, using the message sent to it as fodder/input to the process. It is up to the "owner" and Admin how and what headers are created or included. -- ========================================= Burt Juda E-Mail: hot2trot@bigfoot.com WebPage = http://www.bigfoot.com/~hot2trot/ "If you don't like my answer, don't ask the question!" ========================================= From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 12:45:20 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA02451; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns2.mounet.com (ns2.mounet.com [206.151.76.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA02444 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webman.mounet.com (webman.mounet.com [206.151.76.72]) by ns2.mounet.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA28695 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:34:31 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980708153643.006ab818@mail.mounet.com> X-Sender: webman@mail.mounet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 15:36:43 -0400 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: WebMan at MountaiNet Subject: Re: X-Authentication-Warning In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19980708090824.006936d8@mail.mounet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 04:02 PM 7/8/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, WebMan at MountaiNet wrote: > >> This is in the header for my outgoing messages. What does it mean, and how >> can i get rid of it? >> >> X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.mounet.com: majrdomo set sender to >> majordomo-owner@mounet.com using -f > >It means majrdomo is not a trusted user, as far as Sendmail is >concerned. Dunno how to fix it in sendmail, but I'm sure it's in the >FAQ or docs somewhere.... Correct. I added majrdomo to sendmail.cf by adding this line to /etc/sendmail.cf Tmajrdomo under the Trusted Users section and it corrected my problem. ----- Josh Hill Assistant Network Admin. Web Page Development Phone: 1-888-583-7339 ext. 343 Fax: 1-540-452-2822 ----- From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 13:59:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA04257; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lince.lander.es (lince.lander.es [195.76.46.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA04248 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 13342 invoked from network); 8 Jul 1998 20:49:14 -0000 Received: from ppp-48-53.lander.es (195.76.48.53) by lince.lander.es with SMTP; 8 Jul 1998 20:49:14 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980708223851.255f4658@lince.lander.es> X-Sender: parnal@lince.lander.es X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 22:38:51 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Pedro Arnal Puente Subject: Thanks to everybody from a mac slave In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980708140935.271f6ba4@lince.lander.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello all Many thanks from a mac slave for your help. ...nadie nace sabiendo, pero deberia matarse aprendiendo. *Saludos Mercenarios. Pedro Arnal Puente* *Internet: parnal@lander.es************** From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 14:15:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA04803; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fenchurch.k2net.co.uk (fenchurch.k2net.co.uk [194.164.132.86]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA04796 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from catherine.k2net.co.uk (andy@catherine.k2net.co.uk [194.164.132.90]) by fenchurch.k2net.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04799; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:21:47 +0100 (BST) Received: (from andy@localhost) by catherine.k2net.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23554; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:22:34 +0100 (BST) From: Andy Kirkham Message-Id: <199807082122.WAA23554@catherine.k2net.co.uk> Subject: Re: X-Authentication-Warning In-Reply-To: from Ben Smithurst at "Jul 8, 98 04:02:43 pm" To: ben@scientia.demon.co.uk (Ben Smithurst) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:22:34 +0100 (BST) Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, WebMan at MountaiNet wrote: > > > This is in the header for my outgoing messages. What does it mean, and how > > can i get rid of it? > > > > X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.mounet.com: majrdomo set sender to > > majordomo-owner@mounet.com using -f > > It means majrdomo is not a trusted user, as far as Sendmail is > concerned. Dunno how to fix it in sendmail, but I'm sure it's in the > FAQ or docs somewhere.... > > -- > Ben Smithurst > > You need: - Ct majordom in the sendmail.cf file for sendmail to trust majordom. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 15:45:16 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA05880; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (tan7.NCR.COM [192.127.94.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA05870; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jabberwocky (jabberwocky.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM [153.64.69.123]) by ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA20961; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807082235.PAA20961@ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM> X-Sender: bhoule@sparc.sandiegoca.ncr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 15:28:56 -0700 To: jlasman@ibm.net, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: Bill Houle Subject: Re: Any way to restrict a list? In-Reply-To: <35A07ABA.2561FD3F@ibm.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980626154145.007b4e70@128.196.42.70> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:20 AM 7/6/98 -0700, Jeff Lasman wrote: > >As some have already pointed out, many of us who are NOT unix-users, not >majordomo-owners, but only list-owners, never get the documentation. In defense of Rich's frustration, most of these types of questions can be answered by reading the FAQ and the comments in each list.config file. This has little to do with whether the Majordomo Docs -- which are by no means perfect or newbie-oriented -- are available to non-local list owners. >I haven't read the list faq (but will, if someone would be so kind as to >direct me to it); I hope it tells people (near the top ) where the >majordomo documentation can be found. Ugh. 20 lashes with a wet noodle for the first part of the paragraph. The FAQ is merely: 1) on the Majordomo Web site 2) posted regularly to this mailing list 3) in the list archives (by definition of #2) 4) easily found via AltaVista, Yahoo, etc No excuses. However, the 2nd part is valid: Note to GreatCircle webmaster: for the benefit of list-owners who use Majordomo as a service (rather than being the ones who installed it), can the generic Doc/list-owner-info file be broken out of the tarball and made available on the Majordomo Web site? Or at least link to Jeff's localized HTML version at ? This is, I think, the only piece of the Docs that is useful to those who do not necessarily have access to the installed source. --bill From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 17:44:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA07792; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from karma.isi.com ([192.73.222.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA07785 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hardrock.isi.com (hardrock.isi.com [192.216.227.73]) by karma.isi.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA21636 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nymets.isi.com (nymets.isi.com [192.103.55.120]) by hardrock.isi.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA23704; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nymets.isi.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA23572; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:42:42 -0700 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:42:42 -0700 From: tchoi@isi.com (Troy Choi) Message-Id: <199807090042.RAA23572@nymets.isi.com> To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, tchoi@isi.com Subject: Text body being recognized as command? Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all, Once in a while some of the mail sent to MJ list is being bounced with messages like following. To: owner-some-list@isi.com Subject: BOUNCE some-list@isi.com: Admin request of type /\bcancel\b/i at line 8 I looked at the line and all it says is; dialog box. I put cancel, and finally, i have the project editor : The mail was addressed to some-list correctly not to majordomo@isi.com and I can not figure out why is this happening. :( Could someone help me on this? Many thanks in advance, Troy From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 19:00:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA08728; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA08721 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA42514 ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:50:30 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:50:59 -0700" <199807080010.RAA10634@peak.org> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:47:37 -0700 To: Rich Pieri , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:09 AM -0700 7/8/98, Rich Pieri wrote: > Really, I have to wonder what Dave is doing here, what as he does not use > Majordomo himself (this is majordomo-users, after all). As far as I can tell, he's here to shill qmail and annoy Brent and people like me who find his act really, really tired. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 19:14:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA09006; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA08996 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA27250 ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:08:16 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:50:59 -0700" <199807080010.RAA10634@peak.org> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:55:43 -0700 To: Russ Allbery , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > qmail happens to also come with the qmail authors, which is more than > > enough reason for me why I'll never go near it. But your mileage may > > vary. > > Contrary to popular believe, the DJB tarball is, in fact, *optional*, and > you are not required to install the simulator on your system to run qmail. No, but committing key pieces of my enterprise systems to a piece of software where support is by a person I simply don't want ot have to deal with is stupid. Because chances are, at some point I WILL have to deal with him, and the interactions I've had with him and his bickering attacks on anyone who's not a fellow qmail zealot make me not want to be in the same time zone with him. And beyond that, here's another problem. A while back, either on this list, or on list-managers, he got into a fight with Brent, and then to prove a point, posted directly to the -outgoing list address. That's a security breach, and frankly, anyone who'd do THAT just to prove a point creates a problem in my head. If he'd do that, what's to keep him from doing something INSIDE qmail as well? I"m not saying he has. I'm not saying he will. But I *am* saying that because of his past actions, I can't trust that he *won't*, and I don't have the time or energy to attempt a security audit of his software every release. And since I can't trust him -- I can't trust his software. So I won't use it. he's not alone. There are a couple of other folks whose software I refuse to install because their actions ON THE NET preclude me from trusting their software on my systems. Your mileage will definitely vary. But I won't ever trust qmail in an enterprise situation, because I can't trust the authors, based on their previous actions. Maybe he's mellowed. He sure hasn't been nearly as annoying as he used to be. But when people pull stunts like that, it takes a long time to rebuild the trust it violates. And in situations like this, I can't separate the DJB tarball from qmail, beacuse the attitudes of DJB are part of the existance of his software. so for me, qmail simply isn't an option. and now, I expect the flaming to begin, but what the heck. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 20:14:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA10848; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from null.cc.uic.edu (NULL.CC.UIC.EDU [131.193.177.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA10841 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (seva@localhost) by null.cc.uic.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA11239 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:09:16 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:09:15 -0500 (CDT) From: seva Reply-To: seva To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: headers in the body Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I installed majordomo 1.94.4 on red hat linux 5.1, and for some reason custom added headers like Reply-To: and Precendence: bulk show up in the body, not part of the headers... is there an extra space somewhere? btw i installed a rpm from ftp.redhat.com, and in attempt to fix it replaced most of the binary files with the ones from "official" distribution... thanks... /Simon Epsteyn From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 21:30:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA12555; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 21:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA12548 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 21:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA11448; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA07697; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:24:26 -0400 Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:24:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeffrey Kaplan To: Majordomo Users Subject: Re: Text body being recognized as command? In-Reply-To: <199807090042.RAA23572@nymets.isi.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Troy Choi wrote: ; To: owner-some-list@isi.com ; Subject: BOUNCE some-list@isi.com: Admin request of type /\bcancel\b/i at line 8 ; ; I looked at the line and all it says is; ; ; dialog box. I put cancel, and finally, i have the project editor ; : ; ; The mail was addressed to some-list correctly not to majordomo@isi.com and ; I can not figure out why is this happening. :( ; Could someone help me on this? Is 'admistrivia =' set to 'yes' or 'no'? -- Jeffrey Kaplan <*> I'm set up for PGP. Are you? jkapllan@world.std.com <*> There is only one "l" in my name. There is no need to copy to me via email a newsgroup follow-up. The World does not necessarily agree with my opinions. "Right now, more than anything else in the world, I wish it would rain. Just for a little while." (Capt. Sheridan, B5 "Messages From Earth") From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 8 23:00:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA13601; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:46:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ceo.pcgaming.com (dialin671.toronto.globalserve.net [209.90.132.162]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA13594 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:46:51 -0700 (PDT) From: php3@hadez.dyn.ml.org Received: from localhost (php3@localhost) by ceo.pcgaming.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id AAA02512; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:37:34 -0400 Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:37:34 -0400 (EDT) To: Rich Pieri cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Isnt there a way to do it virtually? I mean you can change the senders address which is kinda like a ghost in programs such as Eudora or Netscape mail and so on. Can't majordomo do this? Our clients would like to see their domain as the senders address when it comes back from our system instead of majordomo@hangar18.domain.com. On 8 Jul 1998, Rich Pieri wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > php3 writes: > > > I have a few mailing lists setup on one of our servers and recently a > > client asked us if there was a way to make the SENDERS address not equal > > to our machines name? > > By definition, Sender *must* be a mailbox which includes your machine's > canonical name. > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 4.0 Business Edition > Charset: noconv > > iQCVAwUBNaPAJp6VRH7BJMxHAQEaswP/ROA2lNcHeEUjttg3Njx4lFZr1vwHoWix > tzsJIg6SB/Mrhe0LKFHdUKaJ7/Nq9c4igAS9s5+zteqNQS/a4VgZavtvM8Bfjwpp > OGMFHZNce5SOQbUn2SjBGYv00AZawSLt69ZT38i1rNO8bCMh580TvBAnZPVCdsA+ > 4RWpcMs94n0= > =SCFP > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > Rich Pieri / If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, > Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / get away immediately. Seek shelter > Prescient Technologies, Inc. / and cover head. > I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / > From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 00:16:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA14889; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparc.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (tan7.NCR.COM [192.127.94.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA14882 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ssol020.sandiegoca.ncr.com (ssol020.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM [153.64.69.48]) by sparc.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA02859; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:14:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Houle Received: (from bhoule@localhost) by ssol020.sandiegoca.ncr.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id AAA07080; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807090714.AAA07080@ssol020.sandiegoca.ncr.com> Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jul 8, 98 06:47:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach said: > > As far as I can tell, he's here to shill qmail and annoy Brent and > people like me who find his act really, really tired. I don't know what has gone on between y'all in the past, but I've been on the majordomo- lists for 3 yrs and list-managers for almost the same and don't remember any significant incidents. I've never looked at qmail (and have no idea about this "DJB tarball" reference -- someone please tell me offline), but all I can say is: 1. he said why he was on the list; he actually uses Majordomo 2. sure he suggests 'qmail', but it was not an outrageous shill job (should I now be worried if I ever say "MajorCool" here?) 3. from what I've seen so far, his contribution to the list has so far been minor, harmless, and not worthy of the criticisms returned I can certainly understand people feeling angry or distrustful based on past incidents, but maybe you can give the guy a chance? Wait for him to swing before you call that third strike. Instead of saying "he seems to have mellowed, BUT...", just acknowledge this possibly new attitude shift and restrict the rebuttals to current fact rather than historical emotion. Just an impartial observer's's view... --bill From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 01:29:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA16512; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 01:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id BAA16505 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 01:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [194.112.51.155] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0yuC49-0000dG-00; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:28:33 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980709092843.008be100@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 09:28:43 +0100 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. In-Reply-To: References: <199807080010.RAA10634@peak.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >and now, I expect the flaming to begin, but what the heck. I sincerely hope not to qmail advocates: think about whatyou might achieve by rehashing a load of stuff that's *already been said before* and contrast that with the fact that if you don't say it you're one chink closer to re-building that trust that Chuq was referring to. Manar From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 02:15:06 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id CAA17821; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 02:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA17807 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 02:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ben by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 1.950 #1) for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com id 0yuBdt-0000p5-00; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:01:25 +0100 Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:01:25 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Smithurst To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Text body being recognized as command? In-Reply-To: <199807090042.RAA23572@nymets.isi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Troy Choi wrote: > dialog box. I put cancel, and finally, i have the project editor > : > > The mail was addressed to some-list correctly not to majordomo@isi.com and > I can not figure out why is this happening. :( > Could someone help me on this? Majordomo is giving protection against the clueless fuckwits who insist on sending commands to the wrong address. In this case, it isn't a command, so just forward it back to the list with an Approved: header. If you want to disable this, check the admin_body setting in majordomo.cf, I think. I just have subscribe and unsubscribe in there. -- Ben Smithurst From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 04:00:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA21005; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 03:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA20998 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 03:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id FAA23506; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 05:59:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807091059.FAA23506@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com> Received: from nbw-nj9-56.ix.netcom.com(198.211.225.184) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma023498; Thu Jul 9 05:59:26 1998 Organization: Hot's HideAway X-Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer X-Sender: hot2trot@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 06:59:30 -0400 To: tchoi@isi.com (Troy Choi) From: hot2trot@bigfoot.com (Burt Juda) Subject: Re: Text body being recognized as command? Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, tchoi@isi.com In-Reply-To: <199807090042.RAA23572@nymets.isi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 05:42 PM 7/8/98 -0700, Troy Choi wrote: >Once in a while some of the mail sent to MJ list is being bounced with >messages like following. > >To: owner-some-list@isi.com >Subject: BOUNCE some-list@isi.com: Admin request of type /\bcancel\b/i at line 8 > >I looked at the line and all it says is; > >dialog box. I put cancel, and finally, i have the project editor > : > >The mail was addressed to some-list correctly not to majordomo@isi.com and >I can not figure out why is this happening. :( >Could someone help me on this? Looks from here like the word *cancel* is being caught by the "taboo_body" settings. That's why it got bounced to you. From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 04:15:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA21484; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 04:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wanadoo.fr (smtp-out-1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.68]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA21477 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 04:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root@tamaya.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.31] by wanadoo.fr for Paris Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:16:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from tntaub1-183.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.252.211.183] by smtp.wanadoo.fr for Paris Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:16:05 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980709131115.0068a210@192.33.175.1> X-Sender: razack#pop.mygale.org@192.33.175.1 (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:11:36 +0200 To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM From: Hubert Razack Subject: how not to receive our own messages ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all, What should I do for avoiding that one receives his own messages ? (i.e the messages he posts to the list ?) I suppose it's somewhere in the config file of the list, but I can't figure out where ... thanks, - Hubert - razack@mygale.org http://www.mygale.org/07/razack From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 05:15:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA22304; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 05:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id FAA22297 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 05:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 5381 invoked by uid 3995); 9 Jul 1998 12:15:27 -0000 Message-ID: <19980709121527.5380.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: qmail, djb, and me (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <199807090714.AAA07080@ssol020.sandiegoca.ncr.com> References: <199807090714.AAA07080@ssol020.sandiegoca.ncr.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >Chuq Von Rospach said: >> >> As far as I can tell, he's here to shill qmail and annoy Brent and >> people like me who find his act really, really tired. I think there's some confusion here about qmail and my relation to it and it's author. qmail was written by Dr. Daniel J. Bernstein (aka DJB), a mathematics professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago. I'm Dave Sill, a qmail and Majordomo user at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory. I've been using Majordomo since 1.62 and have contributed various minor enhancements such as an unsubscribe_policy patch. An Alta Vista search on +"dave sill" +majordomo will substantiate this claim. You can also send me mail at majordomo-owner@ornl.gov. I have no desire to annoy Brent, Chuq, or anyone else, but neither am I willing to pretend that Majordomo is the ultimate list manager or that sendmail is the ultimate MTA. (Nor do I think qmail or ezmlm are perfect). If someone asks "how should do I do X?", and I think qmail or ezmlm are better suited to their application, I'll say so. That doesn't make me a shill. >I don't know what has gone on between y'all in the past, but I've >been on the majordomo- lists for 3 yrs and list-managers for almost >the same and don't remember any significant incidents. I've been on both for at least five years. I vaguely remember skirmishing with Chuq years ago about something or other unrelated to Majordomo, but I can't believe he'd hold a grudge that long over something so minor. Chuq and Dan had a heated exchange on list-managers a while ago, which is apparently the source of Chuq's negative opinions regarding Dan and qmail. I was not involved in that thread. >Just an impartial observer's's view... Thanks, Bill. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 05:45:17 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA22848; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 05:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fenchurch.k2net.co.uk (fenchurch.k2net.co.uk [194.164.132.86]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA22838 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 05:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from catherine.k2net.co.uk (andy@catherine.k2net.co.uk [194.164.132.90]) by fenchurch.k2net.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07356 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:47:38 +0100 (BST) Received: (from andy@localhost) by catherine.k2net.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24560 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:48:31 +0100 (BST) From: Andy Kirkham Message-Id: <199807091248.NAA24560@catherine.k2net.co.uk> Subject: a not very useful list To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:48:31 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am a new majordomo user. I have my probs but careful reading of the docs usually catches most probs. Some i've come here for help with and I must say with success. However, as an ISP sys admin who subscribes to too many lists out of the need to know what is going on with things I must administer it is with regret that I leave this list due to the high volume of bickering that goes on. I have enough list mail for for 2 hours reading per day. majordomo-users is pushing that to two-half hours per day. Just to much plain bickering and not enough useful content to warrant continuing with this list. Thanks to those who have helped me get started with majordomo thou. It has been invaluble advice. Andy Kirkham Sys Admin K2 Internet Services From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 06:15:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA23405; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 06:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA23313 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 05:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA25302 ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 06:03:40 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980709121527.5380.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> References: <199807090714.AAA07080@ssol020.sandiegoca.ncr.com> <199807090714.AAA07080@ssol020.sandiegoca.ncr.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 06:01:04 -0700 To: Dave Sill , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: qmail, djb, and me (was: VERY large mailing lists.) Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:15 AM -0700 7/9/98, Dave Sill wrote: > Chuq and Dan had a heated exchange on list-managers a while ago, which > is apparently the source of Chuq's negative opinions regarding Dan and > qmail. I was not involved in that thread. Correct. My qmail problems are with Dan, not Dave. Sorry if I painted Dave with the same tarbrush by accident. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 07:15:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA24626; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA24619 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA28246 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:16:15 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE! References: X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 09 Jul 1998 10:16:14 -0400 In-Reply-To: php3@hadez.dyn.ml.org's message of "Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:37:34 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 29 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- php3 writes: > Isnt there a way to do it virtually? I mean you can change the senders > address which is kinda like a ghost in programs such as Eudora or > Netscape mail and so on. Can't majordomo do this? The Sender header contains what RFC 822 calls an "authenticated mailbox". Authenticated means "correct". In other words, whatever the host's DNS "A" record says is what belongs there. Since you control that... it might help to read the Majordomo installation instructions. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNaTQrZ6VRH7BJMxHAQERaQP/fh1aktF2fkF4KSlNcrhpat+5vppTS6Kw qa8AhOCH0tBss/vDXrXuBLZzE1Z+kwNmh7jW0mQDJc+sozN6y5o+80utzrNexwY6 2Xh/r6NUANvdS666Y9Z2V6aZr+q+krWYpDn1VUVv8UN2spT7PTtYPV7Uh6JgXa4R 2DfAbOW5oH8= =0MJG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / core, which, if exposed due to Prescient Technologies, Inc. / rupture, should not be touched, I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / inhaled, or looked at. From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 08:00:17 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA25201; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unix.cde.com (ns1.cde.net [204.117.195.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA25194 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quasar.elug.org (jrose@elug.cde.com [205.160.182.83]) by unix.cde.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA26038; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:39:27 -0400 Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:39:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Rose To: Hubert Razack cc: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: how not to receive our own messages ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980709131115.0068a210@192.33.175.1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, Hubert Razack wrote: > Hi all, > > What should I do for avoiding that one receives his own messages ? (i.e the > messages he posts to the list ?) > I suppose it's somewhere in the config file of the list, but I can't figure > out where ... I just used the following in /etc/aliases and I don't get any messages from the list for jrose (only messages from everyone else). I.e., a straight-forward MD setup... Clip from my /etc/aliases (RH 5.0/2.0.34): # # @(#)aliases 8.2 (Berkeley) 3/5/94 # # Aliases in this file will NOT be expanded in the header from # Mail, but WILL be visible over networks or from /bin/mail. # # >>>>>>>>>> The program "newaliases" must be run after # >> NOTE >> this file is updated for any changes to # >>>>>>>>>> show through to sendmail. # [clip] # Majordomo stuff majordomo: "|/opt/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo" owner-majordomo: jrose majordomo-owner: jrose eluglist::include:/opt/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/eluglist owner-eluglist: jrose # majordomo will know which mailing list this is for... eluglist-approval: jrose [clip] That's all I remember doing other than the user/group setup for Majordomo and the permissions as mentioned in the docs. "...when He has tested me I will come forth as gold." -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Jeff Rose Everyone's Linux User Group (ELUG) mailto:jrose@elug.org http://www.elug.org ICQ: 10400141 AOL Instant Messenger: JeffRose78 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 09:44:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA27044; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:43:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from roxy.sfo.com (roxy.sfo.com [205.162.14.50]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA27037 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office (sf-016.sfo.com [207.33.216.16]) by roxy.sfo.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id JAA28219 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980709164514.00837afc@pop.sfo.com> X-Sender: soundbyte@pop.sfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 09:45:14 -0700 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Allen Subject: Puzzling bounce message Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I got the following and am puzzled as to why. ----------------- Subject: BOUNCE list@abcd.com: Admin request of type /^\s*get\s+\S+\s+\S+\s*$/i at line 7 ----------------------- It seems that there is a search for a string (^ character) with a "literal" "s", zero or more times, the word "get", two repeats of "literal" small and caps "s" one or more times, then a "literal" "s" as the end of the string. Am I correct? If so where is the string it has found? I don't recognize it in the post. Also, what is this expression supposed to trap? Thank you, Allen Schaaf And here the bounce message is as I see it in Eudora: ---------------------------------------------------- >From soundbyte@sound-by-design.com Wed Jul 8 23:26:45 1998 Received: from xyz.abcd.com (0@1234.abcd.com [205.162.14.50]) by vince.abcd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00640 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 23:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by xyz.abcd.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id XAA15937 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 23:26:54 -0700 (PDT) From: DCHart@aol.com Received: from DCHart@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id DLORa06640 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 02:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7a57cfa.35a4627c@aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 02:26:03 EDT To: list@abcd.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: One world Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 In a message dated 98-07-06 23:08:12 EDT, Judy Crown wrote: << AMEN, but I still blame Tom Short. He is supposed to be our leader, and he is supposed to listen to us. And Bruce Doering was doing his dirty work in touting a crappy contract.. Tom Short wanted it passed and figured out how to get it done. >> You didn't mention the huge raise Bruce Doering got as a reward for his betrayal of the membership by ramming through this lousy contract in 1996. $30,000, I think it was. ---------------------------------------------- Thanks for any help. Allen From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 10:29:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA27608; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vortex.worldaccessnet.com (WORLDACCESSNET.com [206.190.139.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id KAA27601 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vortex.worldaccessnet.com id m0yuKML-000dNjC; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:19:53 -0700 (PDT) (Smail3.2.0.91#4) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:19:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Ed Hickel To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Wrong address in To: field Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, Can anyone tell me what I have configured wrong? The messages to my list have a To: header like this: To: test-list-outgoing instead of To: test-list The messages get delivered to the right addresses, but all mailing lists I have seen in the past have the *list name* in the To: header not the *outgoing alias*. My thanks to anyone that can help. I'm using majordomo 1.93 with smail 3.1.29 From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 10:44:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA27838; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blkbox.com (blkbox.com [206.109.97.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA27831 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (smithd@localhost) by blkbox.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03449; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:45:05 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:44:01 -0500 (CDT) From: David Smith Reply-To: David Smith To: Allen cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Puzzling bounce message In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980709164514.00837afc@pop.sfo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, Allen wrote: > I got the following and am puzzled as to why. > > ----------------- > Subject: BOUNCE list@abcd.com: Admin request of type > /^\s*get\s+\S+\s+\S+\s*$/i at line 7 > ----------------------- > > It seems that there is a search for a string (^ character) with a "literal" > "s", zero or more times, the word "get", two repeats of "literal" small and > caps "s" one or more times, then a "literal" "s" as the end of the string. >From my handy Perl reference manual, that is a perl Regular expression: ^ is start of line \s is white space * is repeated 0 or more times get is literal \S is NOT white space + is 1 more more times $ is end of line the i after the closing / is to ignore case (case insensitive) so it is looking for a line that has "get" as the first word and then the pattern [space][not space][space][not space]. /^\s*get\s+\S+\s+\S+\s*$/i > Am I correct? If so where is the string it has found? I don't recognize it > in the post. > > Also, what is this expression supposed to trap? Adminstration messages sent to the list, this particular one caught " get it done." in the message. It is designed to trap the command `get "list" "filename"' You can turn it off by turning off "adminstrativia" (sp?) in the list config file. From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 11:02:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA28080; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id KAA28073 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 11017 invoked by uid 3995); 9 Jul 1998 17:58:08 -0000 Message-ID: <19980709175808.11016.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Puzzling bounce message In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980709164514.00837afc@pop.sfo.com> References: <2.2.32.19980709164514.00837afc@pop.sfo.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >----------------- >Subject: BOUNCE list@abcd.com: Admin request of type >/^\s*get\s+\S+\s+\S+\s*$/i at line 7 >----------------------- > >It seems that there is a search for a string (^ character) with a "literal" >"s", zero or more times, the word "get", two repeats of "literal" small and >caps "s" one or more times, then a "literal" "s" as the end of the string. > >Am I correct? No, that pattern matches: beginning of line optional whitespace "get" one or more whitespace characters one or more non-whitespace characters one or more whitespace characters one or more non-whitespace characters optional whitespace end of line E.g., something like a Majordomo "get" command: get listname filename. Perl regular expressions are, obviously, quite different from "classic" UNIX regexps. >And here the bounce message is as I see it in Eudora: >[...] > get it done. >[...] That's it. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 11:30:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA28591; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boxoffice.rit.com ([209.67.79.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA28565 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from deux.corbis.com (host418.corbis.com [205.142.245.162]) by boxoffice.rit.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA08097; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 11:18:42 -0700 From: Geoff Reed To: Hubert Razack Cc: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: how not to receive our own messages ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980709131115.0068a210@192.33.175.1> References: <3.0.32.19980709131115.0068a210@192.33.175.1> Message-Id: <35A509825A.D44DGEOFFR@rit.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver 1.24 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Check out MeeToo in your Sendmail.cf file. From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 12:30:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA29694; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duchovniks.squidge.org (duchovniks.squidge.org [206.14.225.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA29671 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:20:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from walterh@localhost) by duchovniks.squidge.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA25074 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:27:03 -0700 From: "Walter H. Hopgood" Message-Id: <199807091927.MAA25074@duchovniks.squidge.org> Subject: majordomo or sendmail query To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi there... I just signed onto the list this morning, after searching for an answer to my query and not finding one. Here goes. I run a mailserver out of my home (Linux box, Majordomo, Sendmail 8.x, bulk_mail program) and have for quite a while. There's a section in majordomo.cf where you can defer mailing things out if loadavg is too high (I'm doing something similar with a shell script and bulk_mail), but I'd like to do sometihng based on the time of day and the size of the file (deferr all messages over X characters between 5PM and 1AM). Is anyone else doing this? Or is this a sendmail issue? Thanks. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Walter H. Hopgood, Squidgie on IRC or find me on ICQ walterh@squidge.org or walterh@meer.net, but I take a little time to respond to email, so be warned! http://www.squidge.org/~walterh for Squidge.Org (and my) homepage From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 16:45:06 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA02450; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clifford.inch.com (clifford.inch.com [207.240.140.163]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA02443 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from omar@localhost) by clifford.inch.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA30868; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:31:19 -0400 Message-ID: <19980709193119.A30758@clifford.inch.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:31:19 -0400 From: Omar Thameen To: Chuq Von Rospach , John Sechrest , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. References: <199807080010.RAA10634@peak.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Chuq Von Rospach on Tue, Jul 07, 1998 at 08:45:12PM -0700 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk With this many subscribers, have you thought about interfacing Mj with a database like MySQL? This would be faster, and instead of having to regenerate the db file from a huge textfile every time there's an (un)zubscribe, you could issue a single insert/delete command to the SQL server. OTOH, you'd then be creating a dependency on another piece of software. Omar On Tue, Jul 07, 1998 at 08:45:12PM -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > With majordomo, large lists are pretty straightforward. There are a > couple of places that'll bite you: > [...] > > This is one weakness in majordomo. I've looked at replacing the > subscriber list with a dbm file, and then teaching bulkmailer and other > routines like which/who to read from it, so that updates are closer to > simultaneous, but haven't done that yet. That's a future.... but since > I expect some lists to be pushing 300,000 by year end, I think I'll > need it. Sequential reading and writing of a flat file just doesn't > scale, and there's only so much you can do with faster hardware. From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 16:51:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA02561; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA02554 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA40128 ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:43:56 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980709193119.A30758@clifford.inch.com> References: ; from Chuq Von Rospach on Tue, Jul 07, 1998 at 08:45:12PM -0700 <199807080010.RAA10634@peak.org> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:44:02 -0700 To: Omar Thameen , Chuq Von Rospach , John Sechrest , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:31 PM -0700 7/9/98, Omar Thameen wrote: >With this many subscribers, have you thought about interfacing Mj with >a database like MySQL? Yes. I think the move from flat-text -> DB-files has so much of the performance improvement (and is standard to Perl out of the box), that taking the next step and going to MySQL wouldn't buy much more, but would significantly increase the complexity of the change and the administrative overhead. >This would be faster, and instead of having >to regenerate the db file from a huge textfile every time there's an >(un)zubscribe, you could issue a single insert/delete command to the >SQL server. But I wouldn't be. I'd be keeping it in the db file, and then generating the text file only when I need it (for instance, when a message is sent). The idea is that the flat text file only exists when a function that requires it to exist is called, and using the db file after. For max performance, MySQL would be nice -- but it'd be significantly more work and I'm not sure there are many lists that really need the extra oomph. (I'd be happy to be convinced wrong, but I see the move to db-files (tied to associative arrays) as doing most of what MySQL would give me, but keeping it inside of standard perl. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + (Hockey fan? ) USENET is like Gene Wolfe's soldier in the mists. Every day, it wakes up and sees everything as new. From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 20:15:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA04936; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id UAA04929 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 25347 invoked by uid 500); 10 Jul 1998 03:11:04 -0000 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. References: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:50:59 -0700" <199807080010.RAA10634@peak.org> From: Russ Allbery In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:55:43 -0700" Date: 09 Jul 1998 20:11:04 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 34 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > No, but committing key pieces of my enterprise systems to a piece of > software where support is by a person I simply don't want to have to > deal with is stupid. Sure. I can see that. > Because chances are, at some point I WILL have to deal with him, and the > interactions I've had with him and his bickering attacks on anyone who's > not a fellow qmail zealot make me not want to be in the same time zone > with him. Understood. I'm not a qmail zealot. He's never launched bickering attacks at me. He's done things from time to time that have made me cringe, but that's not unique. I personally think qmail is a damn good mail system *for Majordomo*, good enough that I wrote a FAQ and support software to make them work together. If you have reasons not to use qmail, that's perfectly legitimate. I don't think your reasons are bad ones, either. I'm just saying that qmail works quite well technically with Majordomo and that I've had good luck with it; that's all. I personally would consider your reasons for not using it to be more personal than technical ones (which again is not to say that they aren't legitimate). > and now, I expect the flaming to begin, but what the heck. Not from me. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 21:14:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05823; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA05816 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25648 ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:16:18 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:55:43 -0700" Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:50:59 -0700" <199807080010.RAA10634@peak.org> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:10:25 -0700 To: Russ Allbery , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:11 PM -0700 7/9/98, Russ Allbery wrote: > If you have reasons not to use qmail, that's perfectly legitimate. I > don't think your reasons are bad ones, either. I'm just saying that qmail > works quite well technically with Majordomo and that I've had good luck > with it; that's all. I personally would consider your reasons for not > using it to be more personal than technical ones (which again is not to > say that they aren't legitimate). And to make it clear, I'm not telling anyone to not use qmail. I'm telling people *I* won't us qmail. What you do is up to you. If my comments are persuasive, fine. If not, that's also fine. I put them out for people to consider, not follow blindly. The rest is up to you... -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 21:30:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA06004; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from roxy.sfo.com (roxy.sfo.com [205.162.14.50]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA05991 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office (sf-017.sfo.com [207.33.216.17]) by roxy.sfo.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id VAA01437 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980710042235.00b65bd4@pop.sfo.com> X-Sender: soundbyte@pop.sfo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 21:22:35 -0700 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Allen Subject: Re: Puzzling bounce message Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:04 AM 7/9/1998 -0700, Dan Sugalski wrote: >At 09:45 AM 7/9/1998 -0700, Allen wrote: >>I got the following and am puzzled as to why. >> >>----------------- >>Subject: BOUNCE list@abcd.com: Admin request of type >>/^\s*get\s+\S+\s+\S+\s*$/i at line 7 >>----------------------- >> >>It seems that there is a search for a string (^ character) with a "literal" >>"s", zero or more times, the word "get", two repeats of "literal" small and >>caps "s" one or more times, then a "literal" "s" as the end of the string. >> >>Am I correct? If so where is the string it has found? I don't recognize it >>in the post. > >Almost correct. Since that's a regular expression, the ^ stands for >beginning of line, so it's looking for a line that starts with zero or more >spaces the word get, and then two more words, then the end of line. > >The line reading " g*t it done." triggered the regex. Thank you Dan, Tom, David, and others; The combination of answers explains the puzzle for me, but, if that is the case, then the "Mailing List Confirmation" that is sent to new list owners might need to be changed to explain this better. That is what I was using to decode the regex. In the section on regex's it says that the ^ is the "begining of a string" and the example given is ^a which it says is "a string begining with letter "a". The next confusion for me is the \s that is next. Since the \ is defined as means the "next character stands for itself" and gives the example of "\." as being a literal "." not a symbol for "any character." So, as I read that it is looking for a string starting with an "s", not a , zero or more times. Confusing, indeed. Allen From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 9 23:45:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA07335; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA07328 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25066 ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:36:47 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199807100620.BAA18467@Venus.mcs.net> References: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jul 9, 98 04:44:02 pm Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:34:19 -0700 To: Leslie Mikesell , chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. Cc: omar@clifford.inch.com, chuqui@plaidworks.com, sechrest@peak.org, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:20 PM -0700 7/9/98, Leslie Mikesell wrote: > Have you looked at the Tie::DBI module? A little bit. it's pretty straight forward. But setting up MySQL is another few steps beyond that. Interfacing to it would be fine if MySQL was already on the system, but on mine, it's not. And I'm not sure it's good to assume it is on other systems (and believe it or not, if I do implement this, I'd like to make it available back to the masses). Making Majordomo depend on MySQL seems like overkill for all but the largest lists and environments -- so I'll stick with DBM, but if I can leave the hooks flexible, I will. If I ever get to this project. I can't guarantee it yet. > It would be even better to have the perl script ask the db for the > list sorted by domain, then hand it to sendmail by smtp in chunks > so you would never need to have the text file (or worry about people > using the outgoing alias directly). heh. Actually, last week for a little project, I wrote a routine that ate a subscriber list and stored it keyed on a reversed string. It let me do the sorting. Now that you mention it, I could make the key the reversed address, and I'd get this basically for free -- and that's make the need for bulk_mailer more or less go away. Hmm. > DBI is pretty standard these days and Postgresql and MySQL come in > easy-to-install packages. there's a difference between "easy to install" and "already there". and what we as the more senior techies take for granted, a brand new user, installing their first Majordomo, or depending on an admin to do the installs, will find overwhelming or defeating. if this is going to be a basic piece of majordomo, we have to ask if it makes sense for the typical list environment -- why are we requiring adding in MySQL to a site with 8 lists of 200 users? Im not sure that makes sense. Allowing hooks for MySQL for large sites is good. Demanding MySQL for small sites, I just can't justify that for myself. Even if I never get this code released for general use, I'd like to design it as if I would. And that means sticking as close as possible to the standard majordomo release and generic Perl. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 04:59:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA13339; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 04:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id EAA13331 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 04:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 5048 invoked by uid 3995); 10 Jul 1998 11:48:42 -0000 Message-ID: <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M > Be *very* careful with qmail. Why? Do you have any specific, refutable claims, or are you just spreading FUD? >Other admin lists I'm on have had few good things to say about it, A couple people here have had lots of good things to say about it, and they were specific about what was good about it, especially when it's used with Majordomo. >and think that vmail is a much better and more stable solution. Whether VMailer is better or not remains to be seen. Right now, VMailer isn't available. It might be great someday, but if you need it today, you're out of luck. As for stability, how can something in limited alpha release be considered more stable than something that's been in full release for over a year? I've been using qmail for over two years, since early beta, and it's been incredibly reliable. >Also Brad Knowles is a personal friend and I've >learned not to mention qmail around him - it's *not* a pretty >sight. :-) Brad is a well-known sendmail bigot. I strongly doubt he's ever even tried qmail. His arguments against it, from what I've heard, are very Chicken Little-ish. > Configured correctly sendmail 8.8.8 or 8.9.1 will be more than >enough for your site, Sure, sendmail can probably be made to do the job. My point is that qmail is ready out-of-the-box and doesn't require the contortions Chuq discussed to make it work. >and I'd look into vmail. I would too, if I could. Unfortunately, I can't get the web page to compile. BTW, the name is VMailer, not vmail. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 07:51:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA15820; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dmzserv.edisonproject.com ([208.151.3.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA15759 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from intra2.edisonproject.com ([208.151.3.46]) by dmzserv.edisonproject.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with ESMTP id AAA22A6 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:16:02 -0400 Received: from jgreer ([10.0.32.120]) by intra2.edisonproject.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA20252 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:22:59 -0400 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:19:52 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDABEC.469F2BB0.jgreer@newyork.edisonproject.com> From: "Joshua Greer" Reply-To: "jgreer@newyork.edisonproject.com" To: "Majordomo-Users (E-mail)" Subject: permision errors Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:19:51 -0400 Organization: The Edison Project X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk hi i've getting permission errors in majordom 550 ":include:/usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/stockdr"... Cannot open /usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/stockdr: World writable directory 554 stockdr-list... aliasing/forwarding loop broken when i change the permissions so that it isn't world writable i get errors saying can't uid 2 and guid 2 can't write to dir. please help From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 08:00:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA16344; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA16337 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA06146 ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:03:35 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:01:45 -0700 To: Dave Sill , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:48 AM -0700 7/10/98, Dave Sill wrote: > Brad is a well-known sendmail bigot. I strongly doubt he's ever even > tried qmail. His arguments against it, from what I've heard, are very > Chicken Little-ish. Oh, sorry. One final comment I just realized I meant to make: Dave, as long as you insist on "answering" critics like Brad by declaring them bigots and therefore their arguments are meaningless, you shouldn't get upset when people turn around and return the favor to you. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If Brad's a sendmail bigot, well, you're a qmail one. And your anti-sendmail stuff is even more content free as Brad's anti-qmail stuff, from what I've seen. But I guess THAT's okay, because god's on your side, right? (grin) -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 08:12:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA16228; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA16221 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA05005 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:53:10 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 10 Jul 1998 10:53:10 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Fri, 10 Jul 98 07:48:42 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 30 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: >> Be *very* careful with qmail. > Why? Do you have any specific, refutable claims, or are you just > spreading FUD? What is touted as qmail's greatest strength is qmail's greatest flaw. The fact that it massively parallelizes delivery means that it can quickly choke a network or mail host. And there is nothing that anyone on the receiving end of such a throttling can do about it. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNaYq1J6VRH7BJMxHAQEdQgQAuTym0j3AO9bna2jJTsuYKlOi4R8iYef3 EHfkUXauWNvafHuclOzAViU7LumSyApX7vlOttRKZUMZwbE6M2Q/xoCiaJxQM3Xw 1rHVCeVpDYqBJGyPMMgvwjuqyJqHzeyqLSB5oCIZDG71r4JMInQpV9M5+fgmJQfE NPmDDbU1H+g= =Go0P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / include an unknown glowing Prescient Technologies, Inc. / substance which fell to Earth, I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / presumably from outer space. From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 08:15:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA16201; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA16194 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA05294 ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:51:19 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:48:37 -0700 To: Dave Sill , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:48 AM -0700 7/10/98, Dave Sill wrote: A couple of final points in response by me... and I'll drop this one. > Why? Do you have any specific, refutable claims, or are you just > spreading FUD? No more than many of Dave's claims on sendmail... But... > >Other admin lists I'm on have had few good things to say about it, > > A couple people here have had lots of good things to say about it, qmail has a number of fans. Sendmail has, too. I've heard gripers about both. Frankly, the whole discussion comes down to the same as, oh, emacs and vi. And the religious fervor tends to hit similar levels. My biggest complaint, as an admin who has to deal with qmail on *other* sites that interact with my own is their choice not to stick with error message standards. It means that much more work in doing automated bounce processing, and there's no good reason not to. On the other hand, it *does* make it easy for me to track sendmail vs. qmail in my customer/client mail traffic on a statistical level, and so I know just how little "market share" qmail has net-wide... > >Also Brad Knowles is a personal friend and I've > >learned not to mention qmail around him > Brad is a well-known sendmail bigot. As opposed to Dave, who's a well-known qmail bigot. So we're even.... > Sure, sendmail can probably be made to do the job. My point is that > qmail is ready out-of-the-box and doesn't require the contortions > Chuq discussed to make it work. Speaking of FUD.... I wouldn't call this stuff contortions by any means, Dave. Thank you very much for re-arranging my words to make sendmail look the worst-possible. It's inaccurate, but standard for you. And why I popped in this message to clarify. chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 08:30:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA17558; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA17550 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 8715 invoked by uid 3995); 10 Jul 1998 15:31:33 -0000 Message-ID: <19980710153133.8714.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >What is touted as qmail's greatest strength is qmail's greatest flaw. The >fact that it massively parallelizes delivery means that it can quickly >choke a network or mail host. 1. qmail's level of parallelization is configurable. The default concurrencyremote, 20, is hardly "massive". 2. *any* parallelizing MTA can potentially flood a slow link or host. >And there is nothing that anyone on the >receiving end of such a throttling can do about it. Any MTA that allows itself to accept more connections than it can handle is broken or severely misconfigured. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 08:59:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA17986; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bohica.nsg.nwu.edu (bohica.nsg.nwu.edu [129.105.26.29]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA17979 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fabric@localhost) by bohica.nsg.nwu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA06668 for majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:53:31 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807101553.KAA06668@bohica.nsg.nwu.edu> Subject: Setting up Restricted mailing lists To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:53:30 CDT From: Chris Fabri Reply-To: fabric@nwu.edu X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.19] Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm running Majordomo 1.94 on HP-UX 10.20. I've been trying to set up a moderated mailing list with restricted posting, but users on the restricted list can't post without being approved. The list of restricted users is not the same as the subscribed, and it is a fairly static list, so it's not a big deal to have to maintain this list by hand. Is there a specific context the restricted list has to be in? The docs just say set up a list and point the list config file at it. chris -- ________________ ______________________________ _________________________ Chris Fabri | Network Support Specialist | Northwestern University fabric@nwu.edu | Telecommunications and | Evanston, IL 847-467-2539 | Network Services | USA ________________|____http://www.nsg.nwu.edu____|_________________________ From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 09:30:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA18587; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA18572 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA08264 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:27:41 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710153133.8714.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 10 Jul 1998 12:27:41 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Fri, 10 Jul 98 11:31:33 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 42 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > 1. qmail's level of parallelization is configurable. The default > concurrencyremote, 20, is hardly "massive". You are looking at numbers; try looking at the ratio. 20 times as many connections, a difference of an order of magnitude and then some, is a massive difference. > 2. *any* parallelizing MTA can potentially flood a slow link or host. qmail calls this a strength; in the real world we call it a denial of service attack. >> And there is nothing that anyone on the receiving end of such a >> throttling can do about it. > Any MTA that allows itself to accept more connections than it can > handle is broken or severely misconfigured. "Be liberal in what you accept, conservative in what you send." qmail ignores this fundamental concept to the detriment of everyone else, then lays the blame for the resulting problems on everyone else. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNaZA+56VRH7BJMxHAQEnmgQAxHDaVKzjglIXEamNsEdlZKS5xqFtff8C dVsFlc2aptQbe7VwJisbA3bpe2w+vgbHutqiJ237cLPMwI8WenmRdrBK3S8wFvtU UJ/ye9KQb9vvLgWoo3ZOvBwxW6WkHrEFxMIe0ZiZMDZGUML1VRZfmKZjJKD/jqzR ddeydQrHHsk= =ROks -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / get away immediately. Seek shelter Prescient Technologies, Inc. / and cover head. I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 10:46:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA19619; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id KAA19612 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10832 invoked by uid 3995); 10 Jul 1998 17:44:33 -0000 Message-ID: <19980710174433.10831.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >At 5:48 AM -0700 7/10/98, Dave Sill wrote: > >> Why? Do you have any specific, refutable claims, or are you just >> spreading FUD? > >No more than many of Dave's claims on sendmail... But... What are you talking about, Chuq? What have I said about sendmail that isn't specific and refutable? >qmail has a number of fans. Sendmail has, too. I've heard gripers about both. I've given specific, technical advantages qmail has over sendmail when used with Majordomo. I'll be happy to repeat them to anyone who cares. I'd also be happy to see somebody post a list of advantages sendmail has over qmail, with Majordomo. I'm using Majordomo with both sendmail and qmail, so I think I'm qualified to have an opinion about which works better. Which MTA's have you used with Majordomo beside sendmail? >Frankly, the whole discussion comes down to the same as, oh, emacs and >vi. No, it's not the same thing at all. The silliness of the editor wars is that the end result is the same and the decision is entirely a matter of personal preference. The decision of which MTA to use with Majordomo will affect the performance of your list service and the amount of work the you and your list owners have to do to keep everything running. >And the religious fervor tends to hit similar levels. My biggest >complaint, as an admin who has to deal with qmail on *other* sites that >interact with my own is their choice not to stick with error message >standards. The error message standards (DSN) are widely ignored. Why? I don't know, but Dan thinks it's because they're so cumbersome. qmail's bounce messages are very simple to parse and are simultaneously human readable. DSN messages look like crap, and I regularly have to interpret them for users who can't make sense of them. >It means that much more work in doing automated bounce >processing, and there's no good reason not to. You can't do reliable automated bounce handling on the assumption that everyone's using DSN: there are too many MTA's in use that don't use it; qmail's not the only one. >On the other hand, it >*does* make it easy for me to track sendmail vs. qmail in my >customer/client mail traffic on a statistical level, and so I know just >how little "market share" qmail has net-wide... Market share has never been a good way to determine technological superiority. Luckily, market share is irrelevant in the SMTP arena since everyone's talking the same protocol. >> Brad is a well-known sendmail bigot. > >As opposed to Dave, who's a well-known qmail bigot. So we're even.... I used to be a sendmail fan, but then I found something better. If VMailer is better than qmail, I'll become a VMailer fan. Unlike some people who will continue to delude themselves into thinking that sendmail is superior because it has market share. >> Sure, sendmail can probably be made to do the job. My point is that >> qmail is ready out-of-the-box and doesn't require the contortions >> Chuq discussed to make it work. > >Speaking of FUD.... I wouldn't call this stuff contortions by any >means, Dave. Fine, call it whatever you want. I call it extra work that qmail doesn't require. >Thank you very much for re-arranging my words to make >sendmail look the worst-possible. It's inaccurate, but standard for >you. And why I popped in this message to clarify. I didn't rearrange your words. It's not inaccurate, it's a matter of opinion. We don't have a "contortion meter" we can apply to your techniques that will declare whether they're contortions or not. Of course, the fact that you admittedly haven't even solved them all yet (e.g., bounce handling) indicates that they're pretty nontrivial, at least. >Oh, sorry. One final comment I just realized I meant to make: > >Dave, as long as you insist on "answering" critics like Brad by >declaring them bigots and therefore their arguments are meaningless, If Brad wants to attack qmail here I'll be glad to address his arguments directly. In this case we had something like "My buddy Brad hates qmail", to which "Your buddy Brad hates anything but sendmail" is an appropriate response. >you shouldn't get upset when people turn around and return the favor to >you. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If Brad's a >sendmail bigot, well, you're a qmail one. No, I'm a qmail fan: a satisified user who was previously a sendmail fan, but is now a sendmail critic. (Even though, regrettably, I still use sendmail on a few systems.) I'm not a qmail bigot because my opinions about it are rational and based on first-hand, side-by-side comparison with sendmail. Those who attack something they've never used and defend their "pet" MTA based not on facts but on their friend's opinions about it are the bigots. >And your anti-sendmail stuff >is even more content free as Brad's anti-qmail stuff, from what I've >seen. Again, what anti-sendmail stuff are you talking about? Put up or shut up. I'm tired of being misrepresented here. >But I guess THAT's okay, because god's on your side, right? (grin) No, it's not OK that you're accusing me of content-free sendmail attacks and qmail bigotry. As far as I can tell, my "crime" here is heresy: I don't pray to your god(s), so I must be evil. Clearly, no system the size and complexity of an MTA or list manager is perfect: not sendmail, not qmail, not Majordomo, not ezmlm. But in any given situation, each of the systems will perform either adequately or not, and often one alternative will be objectively, measurably superior to the others. Sendmail+majordomo will perform adequately on reasonable hardware with small to moderate loads. My *personal*, *first-hand*, experience leads me to believe that qmail+majordomo performs better: faster message delivery, less load on the server, and reliable automatic bounce handling. I believe, based on what I've read and heard (second hand), that ezmlm is probably superior to Majordomo for large lists because of the way subscriber lists are stored. I also think it's got other advantages such as even better automatic bounce handling and better implementation of moderated lists, but again, I haven't proved this to myself yet. (Moving hundreds of lists from Majordomo to ezmlm would seriously confuse many of my list owners.) If that makes me a qmail or ezmlm bigot in your book, so be it. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 11:15:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA19946; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hydrogen.myriadgate.net ([139.142.42.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA19939 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from myriadgate.net by hydrogen.myriadgate.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA13467; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:18:16 -0600 Message-ID: <35A65B68.A9F64C4C@myriadgate.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:20:24 -0600 From: Jason Collins Organization: Hamilton Myriadgate X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Stopping Vacation-type Programs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've read the FAQ and three months of archives, and Jason Tibbit's searchable index server is not responding, so here goes... How do you stop an automatic reply program (like vacation on Unix) from causing an infinite mailing loop? That is, a message goes out, the auto-replier sends back to the list, which sends back to the auto-reply, which sends back to the list, .... Does this have something to do the the reply-to setup? I seem to recall some discussion of this earlier, but can't find it now (of course)! Thanks in advance, j -- ===================================================================== Jason Collins Phone 306.956.3352 Senior Software Architect Fax 306.956.3347 Hamilton Myriadgate www.myriadgate.net ===================================================================== From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 11:45:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA20520; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsn.org (gsn.org [199.106.67.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA20513 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from erica (qnet.gsn.org [207.155.35.139]) by gsn.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA31886; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:36:10 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Erica Zubkoff" To: "Jason Collins" , Subject: RE: Stopping Vacation-type Programs Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:36:57 -0700 Message-ID: <003a01bdac31$b7cca8e0$0100000a@erica> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <35A65B68.A9F64C4C@myriadgate.net> Importance: Normal Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > -----Original Message----- > From: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM > [mailto:majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM]On Behalf Of Jason Collins > Sent: Friday, July 10, 1998 11:20 AM > To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com > Subject: Stopping Vacation-type Programs > > > I've read the FAQ and three months of archives, and Jason > Tibbit's searchable index server is not responding, so here goes... > > How do you stop an automatic reply program (like vacation on Unix) > from causing an infinite mailing loop? That is, a message goes out, > the auto-replier sends back to the list, which sends back to the > auto-reply, > which sends back to the list, .... > > Does this have something to do the the reply-to setup? > > I seem to recall some discussion of this earlier, but can't find it now > (of course)! Yes. If auto-responders are replying to the mailing list then your Reply-To must be set to the listname. Unfortunately, if you wish to keep the Reply-To as such the only way to avoid mailing loops is to moderate the list...unless I'm mistaken. =) For more information check out: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html -Erica __________ http://www.gsn.org ____________ Global SchoolNet Foundation Erica Zubkoff System Administrator http://www.gsn.org/who/team/ez.bio.html erica@gsn.org P.O. Box 2709 BUS: (760)249-5140 Wrightwood, CA 92397 ___________________________________________ From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 12:15:45 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA21025; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carriage.chesco.com (carriage.chesco.com [209.195.192.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA20938 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from billh (billh.dtgw.chesco.com [209.195.204.30]) by carriage.chesco.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA27798; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:01:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807101901.PAA27798@carriage.chesco.com> X-Sender: billh@pop.chesco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:59:19 -0400 To: Jason Collins From: Bill Hamel Subject: Re: Stopping Vacation-type Programs Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <35A65B68.A9F64C4C@myriadgate.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Jason, When I set mine up I do 2 things that I think are important to avoid these problems. 1. Initialize the vacation.db and NOT set it to "0" (zero) which means that vacation will only reply once to that email address - if you set it for 7 it will reply once and stay in effect for 7 days. eg: To initialize the database. ~billh> vacation -i -r 7 -i Initialize the vacation database files. It should be used before you modify your .forward file. -r Set the reply interval to interval days. The default is one week. An interval of ``0'' means that a reply is sent to each message, and an interval of ``infinite'' (actually, any non-nu- meric character) will never send more than one reply. It should be noted that intervals of ``0'' are quite dangerous, as it al- lows mailers to get into ``I am on vacation'' loops. 2. In the vacation.msg file I make sure that I set the header to include "Precedence :Bulk" eg: Part of my .vacation.msg file --------- From: billh@chesco.com Subject: Email reply Notice Delivered-By-The-Graces-Of: Email Notify Precedence: bulk Hello, This is an automated response and will only be sent once to alert you.. blah blah blah... --------- This from my understanding will keep a listserver from accepting the email in the first place if it rejects "bulk" mail. Hope this helps, -bh At 12:20 PM 7/10/98 -0600, you wrote: >I've read the FAQ and three months of archives, and Jason >Tibbit's searchable index server is not responding, so here goes... > >How do you stop an automatic reply program (like vacation on Unix) >from causing an infinite mailing loop? That is, a message goes out, >the auto-replier sends back to the list, which sends back to the >auto-reply, >which sends back to the list, .... From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 12:30:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA21175; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA21168 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12296 invoked by uid 3995); 10 Jul 1998 19:15:01 -0000 Message-ID: <19980710191501.12295.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710153133.8714.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >You are looking at numbers; try looking at the ratio. 20 times as many >connections, a difference of an order of magnitude and then some, is a >massive difference. I'm doing 240. *That's* massive. Been doing since it last October. Number of deliveries per day: about 50000. Number of complaints received: 0. >> 2. *any* parallelizing MTA can potentially flood a slow link or host. > >qmail calls this a strength; in the real world we call it a denial of >service attack. So bulk_mailer, exim, and VMailer are all evil? What, precisely, is the maximum legal number of SMTP sessions a site can initiate with another site? >> Any MTA that allows itself to accept more connections than it can >> handle is broken or severely misconfigured. > >"Be liberal in what you accept, conservative in what you send." What is this? Which RFC? And how does it apply here? It doesn't say "be liberal in how much you accept, conservative in how much you send". This old truism refers to quality, not quantity. >qmail ignores this fundamental concept to the detriment of everyone >else, then lays the blame for the resulting problems on everyone >else. Well, ignoring the fact that this "fundamental concept" isn't codified in the relevant RFC's, how do you think things should work? Should there be some univeral "max SMTP sessions limit between any two hosts"? What should it be? One? Ten? However many a typical sendmail system can handle? Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier if the receiving system just refused connections when its plate got full? (Doesn't sendmail already do this when the load average gets too high? Maybe sendmail needs a "MaxSMTPSessions" option). qmail is a high-performance MTA. Yes, it's possible for it to overrun a slower system. Whose fault is that? Nobody's. Who can prevent it? The slower system, by not accepting connections it can't handle. This is the way things are made to work, not by hamstringing high- performance systems to the least common denominator. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 12:44:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA21639; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hornet.ns.net (hornet.ns.net [204.75.146.22]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA21632 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (nessenj@localhost) by hornet.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA20986 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:39:56 -0700 (PDT) From: James Nessen To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Multiple Domains? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello! I am running Majordomo 1.94.4 and I would like to have it run on multiple domains instead of 1 domain. How would I go about setting it up, I tried to make an alternate cf file, but I am not sure what to do with it, it did pass the config-test :-) Is this something that I can manually set in the current majordomo.cf file in the $whereami field? Any help would be appreciated! Jim From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 13:00:17 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA22060; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bangate.fda.gov (bangate.fda.gov [150.148.9.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA22053 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bangate.fda.gov with VINES-ISMTP; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:57:25 -0400 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:57:24 -0400 Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: From: "Alan Rubin" Reply-To: Subject: moderated mailing lists X-Incognito-SN: 239 X-Incognito-Version: 4.25.206 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk How does one set up a moderated list so that the From: address in the mailings will only list the listname? We are using an older version of majordomo (1.2 I think). I believe it might have something to do with the sendmail alias, but I am unsure. Any help would be appreciated. Basically, on some older mail systems, the wrong address is displayed and someone can write to the list circumventing any moderation. alan rubin arubin@oc.fda.gov From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 13:29:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA22626; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA22619 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA16049 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:21:47 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710174433.10831.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 10 Jul 1998 16:21:47 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Fri, 10 Jul 98 13:44:33 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 44 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > I'd also be happy to see somebody post a list of advantages sendmail > has over qmail, with Majordomo. * sendmail is available on any Unix system, out of the box. qmail is not. * Majordomo + sendmail works right out of the box, as documented. Majordomo + qmail does not. * Majordomo + sendmail does not massively parallelize delivery; sendmail does cache connections to improve serial delivery performance. qmail massively parallelizes delivery, resulting in the possibility of the throttling of a network or machine. * The support community for Majordomo + sendmail is significantly larger than the support community for Majordomo + qmail. * sendmail has been proven in the field, with a rapid turnaround on fixes when flaws are discovered. qmail has come under significantly less scrutiny than sendmail; its author's and proponent's belief in its security could hamper response time when flaws are discovered. * It directly follows that one using Majordomo + sendmail will never have to deal with qmail or its author. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNaZ32p6VRH7BJMxHAQEo3QP8DPFXIfA8yuYj9KTqxxo3u5M6NWf3Ir1t uhwFnwj+p822Q3OLwZAqSgshP0Aq7kFDtf1rsl4NjM0BCx32Ff4RYUGuuWqrC0/y Bm0ihVwp89EVzEDJxEuA8BcalalLuh38pdtqOPCVguG4rmkWG8qvkI/wJvYi2iu0 RenjXcv+sDk= =huOp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / types of skin. Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 13:40:21 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA22732; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA22700 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA16217 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:27:26 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710153133.8714.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710191501.12295.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 10 Jul 1998 16:27:27 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Fri, 10 Jul 98 15:15:01 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 47 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > I'm doing 240. *That's* massive. Been doing since it last October. > Number of deliveries per day: about 50000. Number of complaints > received: 0. Complaints: 1, at least. I've already blocked connections from one site using qmail because it routinely throttled my mail server. [...] > So bulk_mailer, exim, and VMailer are all evil? What, precisely, is > the maximum legal number of SMTP sessions a site can initiate with > another site? One. That is all you need to get your messages across. That is all sendmail + bulk_mailer will have open at any time (I do not know about exim). In fact, it will take less time to serially deliver five messagse than to parallelly deliver the same five messages because it will put less of a load on your machine, the remote machine, and the intervening network. [...] >> "Be liberal in what you accept, conservative in what you send." > What is this? Which RFC? And how does it apply here? Ignorance is bliss, isn't it, Dave. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNaZ5Jp6VRH7BJMxHAQEPLAP+JzvTSj2Vy2nf1+1e9tPL31Rt1hJeMeUT 6xQmgTqGOQaXEhg/7oprpZv4pHvKqBNd/f9Zw4J+QSsi+RW2JYCZugXaxVTypc4F +4JD9irN9GA5s3+R56IKJeybRkuXdo9bu+gOqKH6djY4LtT8/MCqw/q/UJWU3Zqu N4t7NAo2kpI= =9gsb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Do not use Happy Fun Ball on Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / concrete. Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 13:44:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA23425; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.wizvax.net ([199.181.141.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA23380 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from foodchain (ts2p29.wizvax.net [204.97.162.94]) by mailgate.wizvax.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.Beta3) with SMTP id QAA18693; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:42:54 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980710164319.007f6480@krusty-motorsports.com> X-Sender: rweltynw@krusty-motorsports.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:43:19 -0400 To: Dave Sill , majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: Richard Welty Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <19980710191501.12295.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710153133.8714.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:15 PM 7/10/98 EST, Dave Sill wrote: > >>> 2. *any* parallelizing MTA can potentially flood a slow link or host. >>qmail calls this a strength; in the real world we call it a denial of >>service attack. >So bulk_mailer, exim, and VMailer are all evil? they don't do the same thing that qmail does. they open one connection for all the addresses that a given message is to be delivered, not one connection per address. richard -- Richard Welty NeWorks Networking, Inc. 518-244-9675 rwelty@neworks.net http://www.neworks.net/ From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 14:45:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA24276; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:41:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from planet (planet.fef.com [198.147.196.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id OAA24269 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by planet via sendmail with stdio id for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:47:51 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2.0.90 1996-Dec-4 #9 built 1996-Dec-8) Message-Id: From: alvin@planet.fef.com (Alvin Oga) Subject: Re: Multiple Domains? To: jnessen@sac.verio.net (James Nessen) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Cc: alvin@planet.fef.com (Alvin Oga), majordomo-users@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "James Nessen" at Jul 10, 98 12:39:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk hi ya James > James Nessen wrote: > > Hello! > I am running Majordomo 1.94.4 and I would like to have it run on > multiple domains instead of 1 domain. How would I go about setting it up, > I tried to make an alternate cf file, but I am not sure what to do with > it, it did pass the config-test :-) you could try looking at my "examples"... ( 2 yrs old+ dated info but should help you setting up mj for multiple domains ) http://www.linux-consulting.com/FAQ_virtual please let me know if you find any errors.. thanx alvin > Is this something that I can manually set in the current majordomo.cf > file in the $whereami field? > > Any help would be appreciated! > > Jim > > From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 15:00:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA24667; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id OAA24657 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 14808 invoked by uid 3995); 10 Jul 1998 21:57:43 -0000 Message-ID: <19980710215743.14807.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710153133.8714.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710191501.12295.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Dave Sill writes: > >> I'm doing 240. *That's* massive. Been doing since it last October. >> Number of deliveries per day: about 50000. Number of complaints >> received: 0. > >Complaints: 1, at least. No, Rich, let me explain it real simply so maybe you'll understand. *I* have been using concurrencyremote of 240 since October, and *I* have received no complaints from you or anyone else. Got it? I doubt it. >I've already blocked connections from one site >using qmail because it routinely throttled my mail server. Gee, I'm glad you're not my sysadmin. You can't control your MTA so you block remote sites trying to reach your users. Beautiful. I guess that "liberal in what you accept" part only applies when it's convenient. >> So bulk_mailer, exim, and VMailer are all evil? What, precisely, is >> the maximum legal number of SMTP sessions a site can initiate with >> another site? > >One. That is all you need to get your messages across. Let me guess, you're playing the devil's advocate here, right? How else could anyone argue that with a straight face? OK, I'll assume you really mean it. Which RFC sets this limit? >That is all >sendmail + bulk_mailer will have open at any time (I do not know about >exim). In fact, it will take less time to serially deliver five messagse >than to parallelly deliver the same five messages "It will take less time"... Does that mean "I compared sendmail and qmail under controlled conditions on identical hardware and *it*did* take less time..." or does it mean "I *think* it will take less time..."? No need to answer that, it's a rhetorical question. I know there's no way reality could differ from your perception of it. >because it will put less >of a load on your machine, the remote machine, and the intervening >network. 1) any unused load on the local machine is wasted. If I can trade local load for faster list mail delivery, I do. 2) how the remote machine handles the load is *their* business, not mine. If they don't want to accept five connections from me they, they don't have to. However, if they, like me, want to speed up mail delivery at the expense of load, they can accept them. As long as King Rich doesn't impose a speed limit. 3) SMTP is a small fraction of the total internet traffic. And if both ends of link want to use their bandwidth for mail, who are you to say they can't? >>> "Be liberal in what you accept, conservative in what you send." > >> What is this? Which RFC? And how does it apply here? > >Ignorance is bliss, isn't it, Dave. Care to answer the questions, Rich? I beg to be enlightened. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 15:14:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA25258; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id PAA25251 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15108 invoked by uid 3995); 10 Jul 1998 22:17:08 -0000 Message-ID: <19980710221708.15107.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710174433.10831.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >* sendmail is available on any Unix system, out of the box. qmail is not. 1) The sendmail on the system is probably out-of-date and needs to be replaced with a newer, more secure version. 2) For serious sysadmins, the one-time effort to install a new MTA is worth it if it improves performance or makes their job easier overall. >* Majordomo + sendmail works right out of the box, as documented. > Majordomo + qmail does not. True. qmail does require some trivial patches to Majordomo. This is supposedly fixed in Majordomo 2.0. >* Majordomo + sendmail does not massively parallelize delivery; sendmail > does cache connections to improve serial delivery performance. qmail > massively parallelizes delivery, resulting in the possibility of the > throttling of a network or machine. Translation: sendmail is so slow it'll never choke the receiver, even if they're running Solaris 2.6 on SPARCstation 1 with 16MB RAM at the end of a tin-can-and-string network. OK, I'm joking. But clearly the implication here is that sendmail is better because it's slower. >* The support community for Majordomo + sendmail is significantly larger > than the support community for Majordomo + qmail. True. But once upon a time the Majordomo+sendmail community was smaller than today's Majordomo+qmail community, and somehow those people were able to get the job done. >* sendmail has been proven in the field, with a rapid turnaround on fixes > when flaws are discovered. qmail has come under significantly less > scrutiny than sendmail; its author's and proponent's belief in its > security could hamper response time when flaws are discovered. qmail has also been proven in the field. Rapid turnaround on fixes hasn't been tested because there haven't been any bugs--at least none requiring fixes. Does qmail "lose" here because it doesn't have enough bugs? >* It directly follows that one using Majordomo + sendmail will never have > to deal with qmail or its author. This is pretty much cancelled out by the converse. Some people are tired of scrambling around to fix the sendmail bug du jour. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 15:44:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA25946; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boxoffice.rit.com ([209.67.79.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA25939 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from deux.corbis.com (host418.corbis.com [205.142.245.162]) by boxoffice.rit.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA09136 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:41:39 -0700 From: Geoff Reed To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <35A698A364.299DGEOFFR@rit.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver 1.24 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk All of the MTA's ahve their own benefits, and all of 'em have their foibles/drawbacks. Arguing over which one is better is the Sysadmins version of "My car is faster than your car" :P From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 15:57:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA26021; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA25988 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA19836 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:40:41 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710174433.10831.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710221708.15107.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 10 Jul 1998 18:40:41 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Fri, 10 Jul 98 18:17:08 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 85 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > 1) The sendmail on the system is probably out-of-date and needs to be > replaced with a newer, more secure version. You might want to look at a modern Unix or Unixalike. Most these days ship with reasonably current versions, or have patches available to make them current. Even Sun, formerly the biggest offender, ships with current code (of course, that is because Sun has been funding Erik Allman :). > 2) For serious sysadmins, the one-time effort to install a new MTA is > worth it if it improves performance or makes their job easier > overall. The fact that this argument is occouring at all disproves that claim. Besides, there is no such thing as a one-time installation of a new MTA: sooner or later, someone will find a flaw. [...] > Translation: sendmail is so slow it'll never choke the receiver, even > if they're running Solaris 2.6 on SPARCstation 1 with 16MB RAM at the > end of a tin-can-and-string network. OK, I'm joking. But clearly the > implication here is that sendmail is better because it's slower. But really only a little slower when dealing with fast machines and networks. And it is in fact faster when dealing with machines and networks that would be throttled by qmail, precicely because it does not throttle them. There is a legitimate complaint with sendmail, that being that all recipients of a message exist in a single queue. When there is a delivery problem, sendmail must timeout the current recipient before it will move to the next. bulk_mail exists to deal with this situation by sorting the queue (so that sendmail's connection caching becomes more useful) and by breaking up the queue into more manageable chunks. I am under the impression that exim does this automatically. [...] > True. But once upon a time the Majordomo+sendmail community was > smaller than today's Majordomo+qmail community, and somehow those > people were able to get the job done. Your point to this straw-man? [...] > qmail has also been proven in the field. Rapid turnaround on fixes > hasn't been tested because there haven't been any bugs--at least none > requiring fixes. Does qmail "lose" here because it doesn't have enough > bugs? It is a matter of degree. qmail loses because it does not suffer as much scrutiny as sendmail. The *ONLY* useful gauge of security in the real world is scrutiny. [...] > This is pretty much cancelled out by the converse. Some people are > tired of scrambling around to fix the sendmail bug du jour. That's funny... I haven't seen much in recent years. Most of the sendmail 8.8 patches have been minor things; the significant changes have been in the anti-spam arena. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNaaYZ56VRH7BJMxHAQGYyQP7Bfx3X7+dTt1PEwbYv2WxmZMds1W+tsQ/ HNrVkdIjmqfaJW3DLquJosST0b4exLkLyBEa++86TLZZePMQ19enN6O/RgBIPxAc VsRVzeM4cZlPDE0PPruJL9xZTxCXjNGrhhOqk/QPqGpCjgK8FMDy06IXoaSOwtr3 ImQaqRx/EIY= =06Rb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 15:59:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA26118; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id PAA26111 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15603 invoked by uid 3995); 10 Jul 1998 22:48:24 -0000 Message-ID: <19980710224824.15602.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <199807102049.PAA21912@Venus.mcs.net> References: <19980710191501.12295.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <199807102049.PAA21912@Venus.mcs.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >It just doesn't make any sense to split apart multiple recipients >before the final destination. Sure it does. Three reasons off the top of my head: 1) Allows VERP (variable envelop return path), whereby a bounce identifies the (message, recipient) pair that was undeliverable, enabling sophisticated bounce handling. 2) SMTP is a high-latency protocol. A message to five recipients can be delivered faster by five parallel sessions than one session with five devlieries. 3) It simplifies the process of sending messages. Just hand one delivery off to each of concurrencyremote remote sending processes. No need to look up all the MX's first or handle multiple deliveries per session. KISS. >Consider how antisocial this is >if you are delivering to a large list of users whose machine is a >uucp hop away from their smtp gateway. Batch them up and compress them before sending. They'll compress nicely. Sorry, but I can't work myself up to give a flip about uucp. You might have a valid point--I don't know, or care. >There is a reason that >multiple recipients are allowed per message. Why would anyone >intentionally defeat it? It's an optional feature, it's not mandatory. I gave three reasons above for not using it. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 16:07:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA26387; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA26371 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA24910 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:56:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807102256.SAA24910@cis.ohio-state.edu> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-reply-to: Your message of "10 Jul 1998 16:21:47 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:55:53 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm not a qmail bigot by any means (nor am I a sendmail bigot -- I remember the days of running IDA...sigh) I still run sendmail everywhere. I like it. (I am still trying to move to qmail, but if I wait long enough VMailer might be a better option.) However, I must say that this isn't a very balanced response. >* sendmail is available on any Unix system, out of the box. qmail is not. True. This is a clear advantage for many people. (as is the inherent commercial support it brings) >* Majordomo + sendmail works right out of the box, as documented. > Majordomo + qmail does not. True. (This will not be true in 2.0, AFAIK. It will come with a modular interface that will plug into sendmail, qmail, exim, etc) Of course there are several documented ways to get majordomo to work well with qmail. >* Majordomo + sendmail does not massively parallelize delivery; sendmail > does cache connections to improve serial delivery performance. qmail > massively parallelizes delivery, resulting in the possibility of the > throttling of a network or machine. What's omitted is that qmail will demonstrably improve delivery times for mailing lists virtually every time over sendmail. The only case where it can be even argued that qmail isn't faster out of the box is if you're going over a slow link. However even qmail can still be an improvement if you follow the instructions and tune it. It's also not clear how much cache connections really help improve sendmail's performance. There are known cases where it hurts. However, big sendmail sites generally did see an improvement when connection caching did come out, however there were also other queue management changes at the same time that made other improvements so it's not clear what did what. >* The support community for Majordomo + sendmail is significantly larger > than the support community for Majordomo + qmail. True. (No qmail books yet, either) >* sendmail has been proven in the field, with a rapid turnaround on fixes > when flaws are discovered. What's omitted is that security professionals all agree (even the sendmail author will admit) that sendmail is designed poorly from a security point of view. Those same security professionals will most likely all agree (or at least admit) that qmail is a superior design from a security point of view. It's also a better design not counting security concerns. Qmail's code is far smaller and even cursory glances can see far fewer opportunities for security problems over sendmail. Sendmail may have had 99% of its bugs stamped out over the years, but qmail started off where sendmail has yet to tread. As sendmail gets new features added it has a far higher risk of having new holes introduced versus qmail. (You can prove this yourself historically just by reading sendmail's RELEASE_NOTES. See how often features are added, only later to be revised to close real or potential holes. See how much time sendmail spends verifying permissions here and there and everywhere just so it can be sure it is doing something safe.) It's been rumored that they're trying to adopt some of qmail's ideas in sendmail in future versions. It's not clear how successful they will be, and how soon it will propagate to the major UNIX vendors. >qmail has come under significantly less > scrutiny than sendmail; its author's and proponent's belief in its > security could hamper response time when flaws are discovered. Well, qmail has never had to face this yet, and I frankly don't buy your arugment anyway. I don't like DJB, but I have no reason to believe that he won't be blazingly fast when it comes to providing security fixes for qmail. He certainly won't wait until after that $1000 reward check is cut. Sendmail has no such incentive to find security bugs (for good reason). >* It directly follows that one using Majordomo + sendmail will never have > to deal with qmail or its author. True. I will readily agree that DJB is not my favorite author. Other things which should be mentioned: * qmail is much smaller than sendmail, and thus can be run on much smaller systems given the same performance level. The qmail community is full of cases of people switching from sendmail to smaller servers with qmail and still improving performance. The only thing that qmail can be shown to be worse than sendmail is number of disk I/O transactions per message, but that's mainly due to DJB's near-anal attention to preventing message loss due to crashes or power loss. * qmail, for many installations, requires the installation of several packages (fastforward, dot-forward, etc), especially if they want to maintain certain sendmail-compatible features (like .forward files). If you're just providing SMTP and POP access, a simple virgin qmail setup will be all that's needed. * qmail's emulation of sendmail features is not always complete or entirely compatible in practice. (e.g. newinclude, dot-forward) * qmail generally makes few allowances for mailers not following Internet standards. It is known to not interoperate with some mailers and mail clients that work fine with sendmail. This is important if you can't afford not to interoperate with all your customers, however often unofficial work-arounds are available. --Dave From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 16:29:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA27360; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id QAA27351 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16102 invoked by uid 3995); 10 Jul 1998 23:17:55 -0000 Message-ID: <19980710231755.16101.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <35A698A364.299DGEOFFR@rit.com> References: <35A698A364.299DGEOFFR@rit.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >All of the MTA's ahve their own benefits, and all of 'em have their >foibles/drawbacks. Right. The point of this discussion is to expose these pros and cons so people can intelligently choose an MTA. > Arguing over which one is better is the Sysadmins version of > "My car is faster than your car" :P No. That discussion is frivolous. The choice of MTA is important to list server administrators. Yes, there's some "my car is faster" here--but that's important to serious Majordomo admins. Where it really matters, though, is when it's more like "my car has four wheel drive and can carry six passengers". Those are fundamental capabilities that many cars don't have. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 22:29:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA00432; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id WAA00425 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 65 invoked by uid 500); 11 Jul 1998 05:22:52 -0000 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710174433.10831.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710221708.15107.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> From: Russ Allbery In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Fri, 10 Jul 98 18:17:08 EST" Date: 10 Jul 1998 22:22:52 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 34 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Sill writes: > Rich Pieri wrote: >> * Majordomo + sendmail works right out of the box, as documented. >> Majordomo + qmail does not. > True. qmail does require some trivial patches to Majordomo. This is > supposedly fixed in Majordomo 2.0. No, qmail doesn't require any patches to Majordomo. I recommend one patch (to change owner-LIST to LIST-owner) for additional ease of handling bounces, but it's *not* necessary. > Translation: sendmail is so slow it'll never choke the receiver, even if > they're running Solaris 2.6 on SPARCstation 1 with 16MB RAM at the end > of a tin-can-and-string network. OK, I'm joking. But clearly the > implication here is that sendmail is better because it's slower. No. This is an accurate description of a problem with qmail. I would not run qmail on the main campus list machine here because it would kill our mail system. If you have a situation where the vast majority of your subscribers are at a single host and your list is large, you don't want qmail. > qmail has also been proven in the field. Rapid turnaround on fixes > hasn't been tested because there haven't been any bugs--at least none > requiring fixes. There have been some, although not security-related. Turnaround was sufficiently fast for my purposes and about as fast as I'd expect from sendmail. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 23:29:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01165; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mermaid.shore.net (mermaid.shore.net [207.244.124.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id XAA01158 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smoe.org [204.167.97.154] by mermaid.shore.net with esmtp (Exim) id 0yut1H-0003gB-00; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 02:20:27 -0400 Received: (from jeffw@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) id CAA29359; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 02:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980711022025.Z16271@smoe.org> Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 02:20:25 -0400 From: Jeff Wasilko To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) Mail-Followup-To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM References: <19980710191501.12295.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <199807102049.PAA21912@Venus.mcs.net> <19980710224824.15602.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <19980710224824.15602.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov>; from "Dave Sill" on Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 06:48:24PM -0500 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 06:48:24PM -0500, Dave Sill wrote: > Sure it does. Three reasons off the top of my head: > > 1) Allows VERP (variable envelop return path), whereby a bounce > identifies the (message, recipient) pair that was undeliverable, > enabling sophisticated bounce handling. > 2) SMTP is a high-latency protocol. A message to five recipients can > be delivered faster by five parallel sessions than one session with > five devlieries. One thing to consider: Many large mail servers (such as those used by large ISPs) have what is known as a 'single copy message store', so that if a message comes in for more than one recipient, the message is only stored once (and only takes up disk space once) and then it is 'linked' into the other recipients' mailboxes. If I were managing the mail service for a large ISP (which I do), and I was using a mail server with a single copy message store (which I'm not, currently) I'd be very concerned about the way qmail-originated messges take up more spool space than a message that originated from a different MTA. Jeff From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 23:44:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01612; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA01605 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA23794; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 02:45:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a003.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA04087; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 02:45:57 -0400 From: jkaplan@world.std.com (Jeffrey Kaplan) To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Thanks: Text body being recognized as command? Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 02:45:34 -0400 Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die Message-Id: <35ab09de.2443742@world.std.com> References: <35A6A5A5.E32695AE@isi.com> In-Reply-To: <35A6A5A5.E32695AE@isi.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hey Troy S. Choi! I got your message about Thanks: Text body being recognized as command?: ; >administrivia = yes ; ; Wonder why it is set to "yes" though... ?!? That's the default setting on lists created here. Maybe it's the same at your site. -- Jeffrey Kaplan <*> I'm set up for PGP. Are you? jkapllan@world.std.com <*> There's only one "l" in my name. There is no need to copy to me via email a newsgroup follow-up. The World does not necessarily agree with my opinions. "Ambassador you wanted to see me?" "Yes. What have you done?" "Only what you asked me to do, you had a problem with Quadrant 37 and we took care of it for you." (Mr. Morden and Amb. Mollari, B5 "Chrysalis") From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 10 23:59:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01972; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA01959 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA17672 ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:59:44 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980710215743.14807.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710153133.8714.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710191501.12295.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:51:15 -0700 To: Dave Sill , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:57 PM -0700 7/10/98, Dave Sill wrote: > No, Rich, let me explain it real simply so maybe you'll > understand. Thanks, Dave. It took you about four messages before you devolved into a childish, personally insulting message instead of dealing with the issues. And that's a perfect example of why I refuse to deal with you. Me, I just released a major new site, so I can get some sleep. Only about six projects to go... -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 00:11:46 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01971; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA01949 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA28160 ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:59:41 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Dave Sill's message of "Fri, 10 Jul 98 11:31:33 EST" <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710153133.8714.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:48:43 -0700 To: Rich Pieri , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > 1. qmail's level of parallelization is configurable. The default > > concurrencyremote, 20, is hardly "massive". > > You are looking at numbers; try looking at the ratio. 20 times as many > connections, a difference of an order of magnitude and then some, is a > massive difference. > qmail calls this a strength; in the real world we call it a denial of > service attack. It's not qmail's problem if the receiver can't handle it. the receiver should know how to throttle. In sendmail, if you're being overloaded, tune with MaxDaemonChildren and ConnectionRateThrottle. Sorry, I don't see this as a denial of service by qmail, but a bad configuration on the receiving side. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 09:30:16 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA09552; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 09:25:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ceo.pcgaming.com (dialin1025.toronto.globalserve.net [209.90.134.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA09543 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 09:25:21 -0700 (PDT) From: php3@hadez.dyn.ml.org Received: from localhost (php3@localhost) by ceo.pcgaming.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA00970; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:15:56 -0400 Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:15:45 -0400 (EDT) To: Rich Pieri cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9 Jul 1998, Rich Pieri wrote: Then whats there must be correct. =) > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > php3 writes: > > > Isnt there a way to do it virtually? I mean you can change the senders > > address which is kinda like a ghost in programs such as Eudora or > > Netscape mail and so on. Can't majordomo do this? > > The Sender header contains what RFC 822 calls an "authenticated mailbox". > Authenticated means "correct". In other words, whatever the host's DNS "A" > record says is what belongs there. Since you control that... it might help > to read the Majordomo installation instructions. > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 4.0 Business Edition > Charset: noconv > > iQCVAwUBNaTQrZ6VRH7BJMxHAQERaQP/fh1aktF2fkF4KSlNcrhpat+5vppTS6Kw > qa8AhOCH0tBss/vDXrXuBLZzE1Z+kwNmh7jW0mQDJc+sozN6y5o+80utzrNexwY6 > 2Xh/r6NUANvdS666Y9Z2V6aZr+q+krWYpDn1VUVv8UN2spT7PTtYPV7Uh6JgXa4R > 2DfAbOW5oH8= > =0MJG > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > Rich Pieri / Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid > Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / core, which, if exposed due to > Prescient Technologies, Inc. / rupture, should not be touched, > I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / inhaled, or looked at. > From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 14:00:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA11833; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rehtori.kasanen.fi (rehtori.kasanen.fi [193.65.180.248]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA11826 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zulander@localhost) by rehtori.kasanen.fi (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA23342 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:46:45 +0200 Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:46:45 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: Ed Rogers To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Alphabitizing the subscription list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Anyone know of a quick and easy way to alphabatize a LONG list of subscribers on a list without doing it by hand? Is there a script for that? Thanks for reading this far :) -Ed ,/%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%\, $ Ed "Pooka/Zulander" Rogers $ #( http://www.netsonic.fi/~zulander/ )# #( Learning Revolutionist & Internet Specialist )# $ ed.rogers@bigfoot.com $ `\%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%/' From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 14:30:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA12430; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stealth.infinityhealthcare.com (stealth.infinityhealthcare.com [156.46.170.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id OAA12423 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.infinityhealthcare.com by stealth.infinityhealthcare.com via smtpd (for honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) with SMTP; 11 Jul 1998 21:20:36 UT Received: from infinityhealthcare.com (industry.bialik.com [156.46.170.194]) by mail.infinityhealthcare.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id QAA28326; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:20:30 -0500 Message-ID: <35A7D7C4.294C0468@infinityhealthcare.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:23:16 -0500 From: "Mark A. Bialik" Organization: Infinity HealthCare, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ed Rogers CC: "majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: Re: Alphabitizing the subscription list References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ed Rogers wrote: > Anyone know of a quick and easy way to alphabatize a LONG list of > subscribers on a list without doing it by hand? Is there a script for > that? Well, on a UNIX system, try this from the shell: sort -f listname > listname.out mv listname.out listname You need to redirect sort's output to a file in order to save it, like I did above. Then rename the .out file to your regular listname. I'd backup the original first. Just do a sort -f listname without redirection if you want to see what it's going to do, just to make sure everything looks the way you want. The -f option will treat upper and lowercase letters the same (C is the same as a c). Good luck, Mark ====================================================================== Mark A. Bialik (414) 290-6749 Systems/Security Administrator www.pmihwy.com/~markb Preferred Medical Informatics markb@pmihwy.com Infinity HealthCare, Inc. mbialik@infinityhealthcare.com Mequon, WI USA www.linux.org ====================================================================== From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 14:45:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA12820; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA12813 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (grev.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.108]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06040; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980711144711.00812210@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn-mlists@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:47:11 -0700 To: Ed Rogers From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Alphabitizing the subscription list Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:46 p.m. 07/11/98 +0200, Ed Rogers wrote: >Anyone know of a quick and easy way to alphabatize a LONG list of >subscribers on a list without doing it by hand? Is there a script for >that? cp listname listname.bak sort listname > listname.sorted mv listname.sorted listname -- __ __ _ _ _ Mailing List Services | \/ | | (_)___| |_ ___ for the Internet Community | |\/| | | | / __| __/ __| http://www.mlists.com/ | | | | |___| \__ \ |_\__ \ (Free list hosting available!) |_| |_|_____|_|___/\__|___/ kynn@mlists.com From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 14:50:16 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA12643; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ebbtide.xws.com ([208.14.145.252]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA12636 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sawtooth.xws.com (sawtooth.xws.com [205.162.198.2]) by ebbtide.xws.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09122; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:34:39 -0700 Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:51:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Adams To: Ed Rogers cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Alphabitizing the subscription list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk use GNU sort, installed on most UNIX variants. I like your domain name and sig file. I live in Big Foot County, Skamania County, Washington. Is bigfoot.com an iSP? I would love to have an email address there. -Brian --- Brian Adams Sawtooth Technologies, LLC. Tel. 888-427-4865 http://WWW.SAW.NET On Sat, 11 Jul 1998, Ed Rogers wrote: > Anyone know of a quick and easy way to alphabatize a LONG list of > subscribers on a list without doing it by hand? Is there a script for > that? > > Thanks for reading this far :) > -Ed > > ,/%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%\, > $ Ed "Pooka/Zulander" Rogers $ > #( http://www.netsonic.fi/~zulander/ )# > #( Learning Revolutionist & Internet Specialist )# > $ ed.rogers@bigfoot.com $ > `\%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%$@#%/' > > From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 14:59:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA12955; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rapidnet.com (ns1.rapidnet.com [205.164.216.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA12938 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rapidnet.com (pt4-09.rapidnet.com [206.150.191.104]) by rapidnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11860; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:47:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <35A7DD67.69304772@rapidnet.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:47:19 -0600 From: Jack Teems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Mark A. Bialik" CC: Ed Rogers , "majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: Re: Alphabitizing the subscription list References: <35A7D7C4.294C0468@infinityhealthcare.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Back in the days when I did all my mailing with Eudora, I used MS Word to alphabetize and then simply copied and pasted back to the address book. Mark A. Bialik wrote: > Ed Rogers wrote: > > > Anyone know of a quick and easy way to alphabatize a LONG list of > > subscribers on a list without doing it by hand? Is there a script for > > that? > > Well, on a UNIX system, try this from the shell: > > sort -f listname > listname.out > mv listname.out listname > > You need to redirect sort's output to a file in order to save it, like I > did above. Then rename the .out file to your regular listname. I'd > backup the original first. > > Just do a sort -f listname without redirection if you want to see what > it's going to do, just to make sure everything looks the way you want. > > The -f option will treat upper and lowercase letters the same (C is the > same as a c). > > Good luck, > Mark > > ====================================================================== > Mark A. Bialik (414) 290-6749 > Systems/Security Administrator www.pmihwy.com/~markb > Preferred Medical Informatics markb@pmihwy.com > Infinity HealthCare, Inc. mbialik@infinityhealthcare.com > Mequon, WI USA www.linux.org > ====================================================================== -- ~~~~ A light-hearted (not too technical) collection of computer and internet tips twice monthly. That's NEAT NET TRICKS. Subscribe free with email to majordomo@majordomo.net and indicate in the message body 'subscribe neatnettricks' (without quotes.) Or, visit the web site at http://bounce.to/jteems From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 21:41:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA17254; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA17242 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demai02.mw.mediaone.net (demai02.mw.mediaone.net [24.131.1.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA26053 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shupp.net (nic-c20-158.mw.mediaone.net [24.131.20.158]) by demai02.mw.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12990 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:44:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35A69A3E.FD5D958A@shupp.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:48:30 -0400 From: "Simon E. Shupp" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: help - adding a list ( the first list ) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk hello, I just got majordomo set up and it seems to work just fine, but, i can't seem to add a list to the server. could some one help me? i've read all the docs i caould find, but just can't find out how to add lists to the server. From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 21:44:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA17176; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA17166 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.advance.net (mail1.advance.net [208.202.8.64]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA19512 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jlyle.oregonlive ([38.160.196.23]) by mail1.advance.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA31759 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:37:42 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980710103449.006bac2c@mail.nj.com> X-Sender: jlyle@mail.nj.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:34:49 -0700 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Jenny Lyle Subject: Macs and Majordomo? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello! I'm new to the Majordomo thing. Are the problems when you try to run Majordomo lists off of a Mac? I have a couple of list owners who keep getting garbled welcome messages. They both use Macs. If it's not the Mac what else could be causing their messages to get garbled? Thanks! -Jenny From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 21:46:53 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA16946; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA16936 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virgilio.unistrapg.it (dante.unistrapg.it [193.204.194.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA15791 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [193.204.194.196] ([193.204.194.196]) by virgilio.unistrapg.it (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/1.0) with ESMTP id LAA12648 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:29:38 +0100 (GDT) X-Sender: sspina@dante.unistrapg.it Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:30:57 +0200 To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM From: Stefania Spina Subject: Majordomo and Notes Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We are planning to run a mailing list in our university using the last vesion of Majordomo: my question is about its compatibility with Lotus Notes mailer. Anybody could help? Thank you Stefania Dott. Stefania Spina Università per Stranieri Piazza Fortebraccio 4, 06100 Perugia, Italy tel. 0039-75-5746615 (office) 0039-75-5002765 (home) email: sspina@unistrapg.it s.spina@iol.it http://www.umbrars.com/lingua From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 21:51:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA17265; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA17257 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from karma.isi.com (karma.isi.com [192.73.222.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA27633 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isi.com (argus.isi.com [192.103.55.143]) by karma.isi.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA01961; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35A6A5A5.E32695AE@isi.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:37:09 -0700 From: "Troy S. Choi" Reply-To: tchoi@isi.com Organization: Intergrated Systems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: MJU CC: Jeffrey Kaplan , seva , Ben Smithurst Subject: Thanks: Text body being recognized as command? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks to all of you who helped me out! ;) Following was the problem; > # administrivia [bool] (yes) > # Look for administrative requests (e.g. subscribe/unsubscribe) and > # forward them to the list maintainer instead of the list. >administrivia = yes Wonder why it is set to "yes" though... ?!? -- Best regards, --- Troy S. Choi From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 21:53:47 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA17031; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA17023 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blkbox.com (blkbox.com [206.109.97.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA23144 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 05:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (smithd@localhost) by blkbox.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA17220 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:54:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:54:20 -0500 (CDT) From: David Smith Reply-To: David Smith To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: addlist script updated (bug in last release) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The archive for my add_list script had a problem with the archive and the wrong default configuration files. For anyone who downloaded version 1.1.3 you need to fix two directories. Yor can completly remove the lists/.DIGEST_WORK and lists/.DEFAULT directories and redownload the archive or remove the files and directory in lists/.DIGEST_WORK and mv the files in lists/.DEFAULT/DEFAULT to lists/.DEFAULT and remove the lists/.DEFAULT/DEFAULT directory. cd lists/.DEFAULT mv DEFAULT/* . rmdir DEFAULT cd ../.DIGEST_WORK rm -rf . The archive has been fixed, anyone downloading the scripts now will not have a problem, with this at least. See http://www.blkbox.com/~smithd/majordomo for the readme and archive. Thank you and I apoligize for the error. David Smith From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 21:58:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA17148; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA17140 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch1.vsnl.net.in (ch1.vsnl.net.in [202.54.25.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id CAA10110 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 02:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch124.pppch.vsnl.net.in by ch1.vsnl.net.in; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/06Nov96-0858PM) id AA25990; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:41:55 +0500 Message-Id: <35A5D92E.20C20C2E@ch1.vsnl.net.in> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:34:46 +0530 From: manraj singh X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: send me information X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B2910EF6BEE7D32883E9EC09" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --------------B2910EF6BEE7D32883E9EC09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello I am Arvind Saxena from india I am using majordomo-1.94.4 in slackware linux-2.0.0. Perl version is 5.003, sendmail version 8. Please send me easy installation step of majordomo and precauation. arvind saxena my -email arvind_s@hotmail.com --------------B2910EF6BEE7D32883E9EC09 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello I am Arvind Saxena from india

I am using majordomo-1.94.4 in slackware linux-2.0.0. Perl version is 5.003, sendmail version 8.
Please send me easy installation step of majordomo and precauation.

arvind saxena
my -email arvind_s@hotmail.com --------------B2910EF6BEE7D32883E9EC09-- From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 21:59:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA17224; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA17214 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA23533 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Venus.mcs.net (les@Venus.mcs.net [192.160.127.92]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id PAA04057; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:49:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from les@localhost) by Venus.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id PAA21912; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:49:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Leslie Mikesell Message-Id: <199807102049.PAA21912@Venus.mcs.net> Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) To: de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:49:41 -0500 (CDT) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <19980710191501.12295.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> from "Dave Sill" at Jul 10, 98 03:15:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Dave Sill: > > Well, ignoring the fact that this "fundamental concept" isn't codified > in the relevant RFC's, how do you think things should work? Should > there be some univeral "max SMTP sessions limit between any two > hosts"? What should it be? One? Ten? However many a typical sendmail > system can handle? Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier if the receiving > system just refused connections when its plate got full? (Doesn't > sendmail already do this when the load average gets too high? Maybe > sendmail needs a "MaxSMTPSessions" option). It just doesn't make any sense to split apart multiple recipients before the final destination. Consider how antisocial this is if you are delivering to a large list of users whose machine is a uucp hop away from their smtp gateway. There is a reason that multiple recipients are allowed per message. Why would anyone intentionally defeat it? Les Mikesell les@mcs.com From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 21:59:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA17317; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA17300 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stmpy.cais.net (stmpy.cais.net [199.0.216.101]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA29674 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chele.cais.com (jas@chele.cais.com [199.0.216.212]) by stmpy.cais.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA04664 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:52:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jason K. Schechner" Reply-To: FiXXiT@off-road.com To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: majordomo abort In-Reply-To: <35A14538.276ADB28@ibsys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just moved most of my lists from one server to a newer system running Redhat 5.0 and the following error has moved with them. I've had a couple of lists running on the new server for nearly a month without this error, so it obviously came with one of the lists. Where should I start looking for the problem? Thanks in advance. --------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:44:13 -1000 From: Majordomo@mydomain.com To: Majordomo-Owner@mydomain.com Subject: MAJORDOMO ABORT (mj_majordomo) -- MAJORDOMO ABORT (mj_majordomo)!! Majordomo@mydomain.com punting to avoid mail loop. -------------------------------------------------------------- -Jason ----- Jason K. Schechner - check out www.cauce.org and help ban spam-mail. =The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has bounds.= ---There is no TRUTH. There is no REALITY. There is no CONSISTENCY.--- ---There are no ABSOLUTE STATEMENTS I'm very probably wrong.--- From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 22:04:21 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA17187; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA17179 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA20330 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA12398 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:28:17 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Stopping Vacation-type Programs References: <35A65B68.A9F64C4C@myriadgate.net> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 10 Jul 1998 14:28:17 -0400 In-Reply-To: Jason Collins's message of "Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:20:24 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 30 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Jason Collins writes: > How do you stop an automatic reply program (like vacation on Unix) > from causing an infinite mailing loop? Step one: remove any reply_to you might have in the list configuration file. This will break the loop and prevent such loops from occouring in the future. Step two (optional): find something unique in the looping message headers or body, and incorporate a taboo_header or taboo_body check for that data. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNaZdQZ6VRH7BJMxHAQEJhgQAihGVNq+2NDfvT6AY73RmXmkamm0ajPJ6 PvlUmnsaClNu1zCkDJY6xV7eHHZH57ap2Z8aJR21+1LVfdXT80e/aXddit83ZlTF vSLdhbo9oZu6fJgLswxYaEjVvzOJCy4LzpqtG9xok0LyUwKBtV+YsA4SQnWQ12Yz Jv53IPaY4tw= =8u3I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Do not use Happy Fun Ball on Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / concrete. Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 22:05:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA17122; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA17112 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stmpy.cais.net (stmpy.cais.net [199.0.216.101]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA07130 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chele.cais.com (jas@chele.cais.com [199.0.216.212]) by stmpy.cais.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA15884; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 02:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 02:13:45 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jason K. Schechner" Reply-To: FiXXiT@off-road.com To: Dave Sill cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. In-Reply-To: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: > Or you can switch to qmail, which neatly solves all the delivery > problems, and ezmlm, which solves the list management problems. I gave > up on sendmail a long time ago--it's just too inefficient. Majordomo > is OK for small lists. I still use it because my largest list is only > about 10k users and because, using qmail, I'm able to do reliable > automatic bounce handling. But ezmlm is clearly superior in many ways, > including scalability. Be *very* careful with qmail. Other admin lists I'm on have had few good things to say about it, and think that vmail is a much better and more stable solution. Also Brad Knowles is a personal friend and I've learned not to mention qmail around him - it's *not* a pretty sight. :-) Configured correctly sendmail 8.8.8 or 8.9.1 will be more than enough for your site, and I'd look into vmail. -Jason ----- Jason K. Schechner - check out www.cauce.org and help ban spam-mail. =The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has bounds.= ---There is no TRUTH. There is no REALITY. There is no CONSISTENCY.--- ---There are no ABSOLUTE STATEMENTS I'm very probably wrong.--- From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 22:09:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA17058; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA17048 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netserve.ous.edu (OSSHE.EDU [140.211.10.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA27438 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from southbeach (southbeach.CONET.OSSHE.EDU [140.211.15.50]) by netserve.ous.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA07147; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980709100430.009df760@ous.edu> X-Sender: sugalskd@ous.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 10:04:30 -0700 To: Allen , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Dan Sugalski Subject: Re: Puzzling bounce message In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980709164514.00837afc@pop.sfo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:45 AM 7/9/1998 -0700, Allen wrote: >I got the following and am puzzled as to why. > >----------------- >Subject: BOUNCE list@abcd.com: Admin request of type >/^\s*get\s+\S+\s+\S+\s*$/i at line 7 >----------------------- > >It seems that there is a search for a string (^ character) with a "literal" >"s", zero or more times, the word "get", two repeats of "literal" small and >caps "s" one or more times, then a "literal" "s" as the end of the string. > >Am I correct? If so where is the string it has found? I don't recognize it >in the post. Almost correct. Since that's a regular expression, the ^ stands for beginning of line, so it's looking for a line that starts with zero or more spaces the word get, and then two more words, then the end of line. The line reading " g*t it done." triggered the regex. Dan ---------------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------- Dan Sugalski (541) 737-3346 even samurai SysAdmin have teddy bears Oregon University System and even the teddy bears sugalskd@ous.edu get drunk From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 22:12:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA16994; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA16986 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from null.cc.uic.edu (NULL.CC.UIC.EDU [131.193.177.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA12705 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 21:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (seva@localhost) by null.cc.uic.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA00539; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 23:35:38 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 23:35:36 -0500 (CDT) From: seva To: Troy Choi cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Text body being recognized as command? In-Reply-To: <199807090042.RAA23572@nymets.isi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Now, I am not an expert (i just send a request for help today) but i think what you could take a look at are there lines in .config file in /var/lib/majordomo/lists/ dir (locations depends on you) # administrivia [bool] (yes) # Look for administrative requests (e.g. subscribe/unsubscribe) and # forward them to the list maintainer instead of the list. administrivia = yes i believe if you turn this to no, it will stop doing this... /Simon On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Troy Choi wrote: > Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:42:42 -0700 > From: Troy Choi > To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM, tchoi@isi.com > Subject: Text body being recognized as command? > > Hi all, > > Once in a while some of the mail sent to MJ list is being bounced with > messages like following. > > To: owner-some-list@isi.com > Subject: BOUNCE some-list@isi.com: Admin request of type /\bcancel\b/i at line 8 > > I looked at the line and all it says is; > > dialog box. I put cancel, and finally, i have the project editor > : > > The mail was addressed to some-list correctly not to majordomo@isi.com and > I can not figure out why is this happening. :( > Could someone help me on this? > > Many thanks in advance, > > Troy > From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 22:14:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA17071; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA17062 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:25:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from biocomp.unl.edu (biocomp.unl.edu [129.93.1.119]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA28661 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windsurf2 (windsurf2.unmc.edu [137.197.214.115]) by biocomp.unl.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA24794; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:20:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807091820.NAA24794@biocomp.unl.edu> X-Sender: cprice@molbio.unmc.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:21:53 -0500 To: Andy Kirkham , majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: Chad Price Subject: Re: a not very useful list In-Reply-To: <199807091248.NAA24560@catherine.k2net.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:48 PM 7/9/98 +0100, Andy Kirkham wrote: > >I am a new majordomo user. I have my probs but careful reading of >the docs usually catches most probs. Some i've come here for help >with and I must say with success. However, as an ISP sys admin who >subscribes to too many lists out of the need to know what is going >on with things I must administer it is with regret that I leave this >list due to the high volume of bickering that goes on. I have enough >list mail for for 2 hours reading per day. majordomo-users is pushing >that to two-half hours per day. > >Just to much plain bickering and not enough useful content to warrant >continuing with this list. Thanks to those who have helped me get >started with majordomo thou. It has been invaluble advice. > I have 2 comments to this (1) Learn to filter your email a bit better. You are not required to read all the bickering. However, I too wish that the bickering would be taken off-list also. (2) The list as a whole might want to consider a policy similar to that of the Sun and OSF mangers lists where the replies go direct to the questioner, and the questioner then posts a summary to the list. This dramatically cuts down on list volume. People who violate the rule are simply bounced from the list. Chad Chad Price Systems Manager University of Nebraska cprice@molbio.unmc.edu (402) 472-4527 M-W-F (402) 559-9527 T-Th From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 22:15:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA17135; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA17125 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA07210 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Venus.mcs.net (les@Venus.mcs.net [192.160.127.92]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id BAA28117; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:20:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from les@localhost) by Venus.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id BAA18467; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:20:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Leslie Mikesell Message-Id: <199807100620.BAA18467@Venus.mcs.net> Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:20:10 -0500 (CDT) Cc: omar@clifford.inch.com, chuqui@plaidworks.com, sechrest@peak.org, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jul 9, 98 04:44:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Chuq Von Rospach: > > Yes. I think the move from flat-text -> DB-files has so much of the > performance improvement (and is standard to Perl out of the box), that > taking the next step and going to MySQL wouldn't buy much more, but would > significantly increase the complexity of the change and the administrative > overhead. Have you looked at the Tie::DBI module? You should be able to make the perl code look pretty much the same as with a dbm but it would work with a variety of back ends that could live on other machines if desired. On the other hand, doing each() on a huge db to get the list isn't pretty. > But I wouldn't be. I'd be keeping it in the db file, and then generating > the text file only when I need it (for instance, when a message is sent). > The idea is that the flat text file only exists when a function that > requires it to exist is called, and using the db file after. It would be even better to have the perl script ask the db for the list sorted by domain, then hand it to sendmail by smtp in chunks so you would never need to have the text file (or worry about people using the outgoing alias directly). > For max performance, MySQL would be nice -- but it'd be significantly more > work and I'm not sure there are many lists that really need the extra > oomph. (I'd be happy to be convinced wrong, but I see the move to db-files > (tied to associative arrays) as doing most of what MySQL would give me, but > keeping it inside of standard perl. DBI is pretty standard these days and Postgresql and MySQL come in easy-to-install packages. RedHat Linux ships with Postgresql already there. I'm kind of surprised that no one has fixed sendmail up to use postgresql for alias and list expansion directly. Les Mikesell les@mcs.com From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 22:17:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA17207; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA17197 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA23096 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Venus.mcs.net (les@Venus.mcs.net [192.160.127.92]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id PAA03516; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:38:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from les@localhost) by Venus.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id PAA21622; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:38:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Leslie Mikesell Message-Id: <199807102038.PAA21622@Venus.mcs.net> Subject: Re: VERY large mailing lists. To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:38:45 -0500 (CDT) Cc: les@Mcs.Net, chuqui@plaidworks.com, omar@clifford.inch.com, sechrest@peak.org, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jul 9, 98 11:34:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Chuq Von Rospach: > > > > DBI is pretty standard these days and Postgresql and MySQL come in > > easy-to-install packages. > > there's a difference between "easy to install" and "already there". and > what we as the more senior techies take for granted, a brand new user, > installing their first Majordomo, or depending on an admin to do the > installs, will find overwhelming or defeating. if this is going to be a > basic piece of majordomo, we have to ask if it makes sense for the > typical list environment -- why are we requiring adding in MySQL to a > site with 8 lists of 200 users? Im not sure that makes sense. There is DBD:CSV that uses a comma separated flat file as the database and SQL-Statement that goes with it. You would still need to install these perl modules, but then you wouldn't need a separate database program. > Allowing hooks for MySQL for large sites is good. Demanding MySQL for > small sites, I just can't justify that for myself. Even if I never get > this code released for general use, I'd like to design it as if I > would. And that means sticking as close as possible to the standard > majordomo release and generic Perl. Tiny lists are probably better off with smartlist anyway, but if you use the Tie::DBI interface and make sorting/chunking optional it could be generic (i.e. you can tie a dbm instead). But anyone adding any perl based software should set up the CPAN module, after which it is amazingly easy to install and update everything else and DBI/DBD is painless. Is there any chance of Majordomo itself becoming a CPAN module with the setup options in the Makefile.PL? By the way, one nifty advantage of Postgresql or MySQL is that they are ODBC accessable so you can control them directly with desktop programs like MS-Access. There is some value in this even if the lists are small. Les Mikesell les@mcs.com From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 22:21:21 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA17099; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA17089 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.mminternet.com ([207.175.72.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA03936 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from armada.mminternet.com ([207.175.72.210] (may be forged)) by mercury.mminternet.com (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id SAA00514 for ; Thu, 09 Jul 1998 18:04:10 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980709180245.007a1af0@mail.mminternet.com> X-Sender: dspisak@mail.mminternet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 18:02:45 +0000 To: Majordomo-users@GreatCircle.com From: "Daniel E. Spisak" Subject: Help getting lists working with external sendmail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have been recently trying to get Majordomo 1.94.4 installed and running on a Linux system and have been able to get subscribes/unsubscribes and commands to majordomo to work. However, as soon as I try to send a message out on a list I get a error message from sendmail about broken aliases. I am running majordomo on the linux machine and I am trying to make it send the messages to the owner's true email acoount on another mailserver in our domain (a windows nt box running MetaInfo sendmail). Bascially how I want it to work is like this: Person emails the list at the majordomo machine (which is running sendmail 8.9) Majordomo processes the request and sends a response back to user If owner must be notified, send that message to account on NT box I looked through the FAQ's for sendmail and Majordomo and ended up setting up a genericstable in /etc and modifing my sendmail.cf file on the Linux box to use it. I also setup a dummy account on the Linux box that Majordomo thinks is the owner and then I used the genericstable to route (*I think*) the email for that account out to the account on the NT box. What I need to know is, is this the correct way to go about letting sendmail route local mail out to a different server or is there a better way to do this? Also, when I try to send a email to the netparty list I get this message from Sendmail. >From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Jul 09 17:29:20 1998 >Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:29:18 -0700 >From: Mail Delivery Subsystem >To: owner-netparty@listserv.mminternet.com >Subject: Returned mail: netparty-list... aliasing/forwarding loop broken >Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) > >The original message was received at Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:29:18 -0700 >from daemon@localhost > > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- >netparty-list >":include:/usr/test/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/netparty" > (expanded from: netparty-list) > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >550 ":include:/usr/test/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/netparty"... Cannot open >/usr/test/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/netparty: Permission denied >554 netparty-list... aliasing/forwarding loop broken >Reporting-MTA: dns; atlas.mminternet.com >Arrival-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:29:18 -0700 > >Final-Recipient: RFC822; netparty-list@atlas.mminternet.com >Action: failed >Status: 5.4.6 >Last-Attempt-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:29:18 -0700 > >Final-Recipient: RFC822; netparty-list@atlas.mminternet.com >X-Actual-Recipient: RFC822; /usr/test/majordomo->1.94.4/lists/netparty@atlas.mminternet.com >Action: failed >Status: 5.2.4 >Last-Attempt-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:29:18 -0700 >Return-Path: >Received: (from daemon@localhost) > by atlas.mminternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA00731 > for netparty-list; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:29:18 -0700 >Received: from mercury.mminternet.com (mercury.mminternet.com [207.175.72.8]) > by atlas.mminternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00728 > for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:29:16 -0700 >Received: from armada.mminternet.com ([207.175.72.210] (may be forged)) > by mercury.mminternet.com (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with >SMTP > id RAA00477 for ; Thu, 09 Jul 1998 >17:29:14 -0700 >Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980709172750.007ab780@mail.mminternet.com> >X-Sender: dspisak@mail.mminternet.com >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) >Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 17:27:50 +0000 >To: netparty@listserv.mminternet.com >From: "Daniel E. Spisak" >Subject: MMI Netparty Test >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Sender: owner-netparty@listserv.mminternet.com >Precedence: bulk Here is information on my setup: OS= RedHat 5.0 Linux 2.0.31 Perl=5.0004_1 Here are the majordomo related aliases in /etc/aliases majordomo: "|/usr/test/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo" owner-majordomo: bcohen majordomo-owner: bcohen netparty: "|/usr/test/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper resend -l netparty netparty-list" netparty-list: ":include:/usr/test/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/netparty" owner-netparty: dspisak, netparty-owner: dspisak netparty-request: "|/usr/test/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo -l netparty" and the /etc/genericstable bcohen bcohen@mminternet.com dspisak dspisak@mminternet.com (Should the genericstable point to mail.mminternet.com instead of just the domain? We do have a properly setup MX in our DNS) and the permissions of the lists folder and contents drwxr-xr-x 4 daemon daemon 1024 Jul 8 17:29 lists -rw-rw---- 1 daemon daemon 92 Jul 9 15:05 netparty -rw-rw---- 1 daemon daemon 16187 Jul 9 16:53 netparty.config -rwxrwx--- 1 daemon daemon 173 Jul 9 14:45 netparty.info -rwxrwx--- 1 daemon daemon 326 Jul 9 14:47 netparty.intro Any help on this would be greatly appricated, thanks. Daniel Spisak MM Internet http://www.mminternet.com/~dspisak/ From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 22:23:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA17284; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA17275 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy1-bsb.gns.com.br (srv1-bsb.GNS.com.br [200.239.56.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id RAA28411 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3591 invoked by uid 1002); 11 Jul 1998 00:51:01 -0000 Received: from srv1-bsb.gns.com.br (200.239.56.1) by proxy-bsb.gns.com.br with SMTP; 11 Jul 1998 00:51:01 -0000 Received: (from lioux@localhost) by srv1-bsb.gns.com.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03584; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:50:59 -0300 (EST) From: Mario Sergio Fujikawa Ferreira Message-Id: <199807110050.VAA03584@srv1-bsb.gns.com.br> Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <19980710231755.16101.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> from Dave Sill at "Jul 10, 98 07:17:55 pm" To: de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:50:59 -0300 (EST) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > No. That discussion is frivolous. The choice of MTA is important to > list server administrators. Yes, there's some "my car is faster" > here--but that's important to serious Majordomo admins. Where it > really matters, though, is when it's more like "my car has four wheel > drive and can carry six passengers". Those are fundamental > capabilities that many cars don't have. Okay. I've been reading this thread for some time and I'll try to add something useful to it. I've used/tested qmail, exim and sendmail both for simple domain mail use and for mailing list handling. Here goes my insights. I've successfully deployed good instalations and solutions with all of them; before anyone asks. I'll analyze security (robustness is a topic), speed, easy of configuration, easy of administration and protocols. Keep in mind this is a quick overview and I describing features found on the latest releases. For more information, check the MTAs' homepages. 1) qmail Requires a full change on the way mail is processed on your system. Since qmail works differently from the MTA shipped with most running systems (sendmail), it will require both the will to radically change and the possibility to do so. In some systems, it is not feasable to install an alien MTA. For those of you who can afford to: 1.1) Security By adopting a modular architecture, qmail isolates security threat (root compromise) to a single module: the mail receiving module. This module is very small and can be easily scrutinized, so it not shallow to say it is "pretty much" secure when considering root compromise. However, when dealing with robustness there is a problem, that Vmailer author rises. Qmail can in certain circunstances enter in a memory spiral and pretty much clog your system. It won't crash, yet it will be unusable for quite some time. This situation is not common but this point should be noticed. For more information, check Vmailer homepage. If I am mistaken, I apologize. 1.2) Speed Qmail adopts full parallel connections, that is one recipient per SMTP connection. It claims it is faster and in fact it is for most cases. The SMTP protocol has too much latency and, in most scenarios, 10 parallel connections will prevail over 1 single long connections. (Bye bye bulkmailer, it is useless on a parallel scenario). However, if bandwidth is at stake or your have many emails on queue for a given site (such as aol), a full parallel option may not be good for you. How? Just imagine you are hosting a mailing list with 50 aol subscribers and aol has been down for the last 2 days. Let's say 5 emails were sent to your list, you have about 250 recipients worth delivering. What qmail does? It will require 250 delivery attempts to deliver all your emails. Maybe this is worthy for some, yet for others 5 long connections with many recipients is a sure winner. 1.3) Easy of configuration Well, it is alien but any MTA is an alien creature for a beginner. Damn easy. Just set some dotfiles, about a half a dozen 5-lined-configuration-files and you are done. If you are a beginner, qmail is surely easier to configure than sendmail.cf. You bet. If you are an advanced user, you may have some trouble acquiring the functionality you got used to with your MTA. Qmail advocates claim they can mimic pretty much everything other MTAs are capable of. Well, I can do pretty much everything with shell processors but sometimes it is just not good, you don't have the time or you don't have the inclination to. The final word would be: it is easy to set up. Advanced settings require some extra effort from the admin though. 1.4) Easy of administration It is damn easy to administer. In a mailing list enviroment, all that is required is setting some dotfiles (a very powerful thing that could be "compared" to aliases but that is not the same). In a multi user enviroment with shell users. Hard time. First of all, there is no spool mail, all mail is spooled in the users home directory. There are good security reasons for that (check qmail.org for info), but there are bad too. Well, resource management is well done, users will have to cope with their quota. However, you don't have a centralized control, that is not acceptable for some. Another thing is that users can fake addresses pretty easily. They can set enviroment variables and they write email as though they belong to somewhere else. It is damn good for virtual domains and stuff, but it is bad for administration. Anyway, you could always telnet localhost 25. So it is not much of a monstrous problem, just another strange feature to watch out. Just another tricky feature. Users can setup mailing lists on their accounts without the knowledge or the permission of the administrator. It is good for some, bad for others. 1.5) Protocols qmail talks SMTP period. You don't have X400, uucp or anything else. It is an SMTP only MTA. Does it bothers you? In some enviroments, you couldn't wish a better setting. Heheheh You can have BSMTP if you install some addons though. qmail also added a new protocol QMTP. It is faster than SMTP and adds some nice features but it only works with qmail-qmail connections. 2) Exim It mimic sendmail behavior. The user won't notice easily things changed. So it might be a suitable possibility for those of you looking for a sendmail replacement but without the need for much change. 2.1) Security Well, I did not escrutinized exim much, but it seems and sounds secure. Check the exim discussions groups on this one. Exim opts for one binary for all purposes. Why having to duplicate similar functions such as address rewriting on multiple modules. Just keep everything tight and close. That's the architecture. Security options are a la sendmail. You can control what can go on a .forward, what goes on aliases and etc. There some very good anti spam measures built in. 2.2) Speed Well, you have 2 options here: full parallel connections or multiple recipients. Of course, if you happen to pick multiple recipients, you can set how many recipients are sent per envelope. (Bye, bye bulkmailer). Besides these delivery options, exim employs some smart strategies to guarantee a faster delivery such as a database of connection times and on hold messages. For example, whenever exim detects that a host came back to live, it starts sending but without clogging your system. Check exim directly for more information. 2.3) Easy of configuration Well, once again it is different from old friend sendmail. For most, it is for better. Exim configuration file is easy, out of the box to configure. Following the instructions sent with exim should be enough, if not, check the exim site. There are lots of documentations and, believe me, LOTS of options. However, unlike sendmail, you don't need to bother about them. Just configure the bare essentials you are fine. Advanced settings are easy to come by but once again some of them will require some extra effort from the admin to set up. 2.4) Easy of administration Couldn't be easier. If you know sendmail, it is not that different. There are replacement binaries for all sendmail programs (mailq, sendmail, newaliases). It mimics with perfection sendmail behavior. There are some minor differences, I don't recall right now. Nothing to bother much, check exim.org once again for these. 2.5) Protocols Right out of the box, exim only talks SMTP and BSTMP. However, since it develops a director interface, you can teach it how to talk to pretty much any delivery/receive program. One can easily send FAXES and UUCP with it. I am not saying that qmail cannot, I am just saying that exim has a documented/easy to use way to do it. qmail just requires some extra effort and eager to try. 3) sendmail Well, I am no authority here so I just do a quick summary. It is not faster than any of the above. It comes with almost everything you might ever need. This is good and bad as many of us know. It employs one binary for all. What I said about exim applies here. Is it insecure? Since it is one shoe fits all, sendmail can always hide some unknown problems, but none have been seen in quite some time. It speaks almost all necessary protocols. I mean all because I don't know your particular needs. :) Easy to configure if you know what m4 is. If you don't, don't come any closer. Pay somebody to safely do it for you. Administration? As easy and hard as any other. Overall conclusion. 1) Security Due to its design, qmail should be the most secure in the long run. I won't say anything else on this matter. 2) Speed Even if you tweek sendmail A LOT. You won't beat any of the others. In parallel mode, in a controled setting (one-one machine delivery), qmail is faster than exim. qmail has a smaller memory signature and is less processor hungry. However, under some circunstances it is pretty much possible to achieve better results with exim multiple recipients against qmail full delivery. Exercise left to the reader. Final word. If you have enough bandwidth go with qmail. If you don't, think about checking exim first, or even consider studying a bit and keeping sendmail. 3) Easy of configuration For the beginner: exim or qmail. For the advanced user: exim or sendmail. Qmail is easy but require extra effort and tweaking. Check it out. Advanced users should always do it anyway. Sendmail is not easy. I think it is, but I've been working with it for the last 4 years. At first, I did not thought so. 4) Easy of administration If you want a free enviroment where users can set their own lists and handle their own "aliases" go for qmail. If you don't want that check exim. 5) Protocols If you need only SMTP, pick any. If you need more exim or sendmail should do it. If you need really weird stuff, sendmail might know about it. If it does not check exim or qmail. Although qmail usually requires extra work for non SMTP, weird stuff already requires work. So.... exim and qmail will tie. However, for the average SMTP, UUCP setting, exim should do it with ease. I hope this helps. If it does not, I am sorry. This email represents my opinions only and keep in mind I may be wrong. After all, I am only human. Regards, Mario Ferreira -- Mario S. F. Ferreira System Administrator/Consulting @ GNS Email(no _s): _L_ioux(at)g_ns.com.br | PGP key/contact info: finger Email Global Network Solutions Tec | http://www.GNS.com.br/ | # +55 061 3272626 FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 22:44:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA23492; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id WAA23484 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from East.Sun.COM ([129.148.1.241]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id WAA04520; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:44:39 -0700 Received: from suneast.East.Sun.COM by East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id BAA27270; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 01:44:36 -0400 Received: from ippon.East.Sun.COM by suneast.East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id BAA02311; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 01:44:35 -0400 Received: from ippon by ippon.East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id BAA15548; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 01:44:35 -0400 Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 01:44:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Allan Ku - Desktop Hardware Engineering Reply-To: Allan Ku - Desktop Hardware Engineering Subject: Re: Alphabitizing the subscription list To: zulander@rehtori.kasanen.fi, mbialik@infinityhealthcare.com Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: jfU1YAy8BGygapyS3o4Ymw== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.1.0 CDE Version 1.1 SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u sparc Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: "Mark A. Bialik" > Ed Rogers wrote: > > > Anyone know of a quick and easy way to alphabatize a LONG list of > > subscribers on a list without doing it by hand? Is there a script for > > that? > > Well, on a UNIX system, try this from the shell: > > sort -f listname > listname.out > mv listname.out listname I've been meaning to ask this question myself. while Mark's answer (using sort) is good, you start facing problems when the list exceeds 50 or so. Typically one would ask for a sorted list because one wants to check whether a particular person's email is on the list (and if it's correct). But there're so many valid forms that one's email address can be registed on the list: eg. Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Stephen Campbell "Majordomo Users @ NRS" aku@ippon.east.sun.com I picked the above randomly from our list (sorry Brent and Stephen, but this list is open anyways any complains, phone 1800-why-meee ;) if sorted it would look like this: "Majordomo Users @ NRS" Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Stephen Campbell aku@ippon.east.sun.com which isn't particularly helpful to search by names or emails at a glance 'specially if the list is of size over thousands. Of course, for us admin's there many ways to search by names or email (vi, grep, emacs etc etc etc); but our customer (lists owners) typically don't possess knowledges in this realm. So here is my question (finally): A) Has anyone out there written a perl script to process the lists such the all the addresses will be converted to "Surnames, First_names ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nunez@localhost) by venus.helios.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA22784; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 03:39:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 03:39:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807120739.DAA22784@venus.helios.net> To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: nunez@helios.net Subject: majordomo admin and emacs Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello All, I'm tired of having to manually process my MD lists through external programs and would like to have a set of emacs functions that I can tie into my mailer (currently VM). Before embarking on such a project I thought that I would perhaps save myself some time and see if anyone here has done such a thing? It would be nice to have some generic functions to use on a buffer to extract the email addresses and then process them according to the subject line and error message. does anyone know of anything close? - Steve Nunez From majordomo-users-owner Sat Jul 11 23:59:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA24723; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk (euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk [138.250.48.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA24715 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from annex-1-pt4.ccc.cranfield.ac.uk ([138.250.1.207] helo=arpad.thegreen.private ident=cc047) by euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) id 0yvG1S-0004BE-00; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 07:54:10 +0100 Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 07:54:06 +0100 (BST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-Sender: cc047@arpad.thegreen.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: Jason Collins cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Stopping Vacation-type Programs In-Reply-To: <35A65B68.A9F64C4C@myriadgate.net> Message-ID: Organization: Cranfield University Computer Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Jason Collins wrote: > How do you stop an automatic reply program (like vacation on Unix) > from causing an infinite mailing loop? Unix vacation shouldn't do that. As far as I understand it is a well behaved program and only sends its auto-replies when messages mean certain criteria. (1) It should not reply to message which are of precedence, bulk, list or junk. (2) It should not reply to messages which don't have the individual's email address in the To or Cc line. A majordomo mailing list message will fail both those tests, so there should not be an auto-reply to vacation. Additionally, vacation will not send out a new message to an address that it has recently (usually one week) sent a message to. In addition to what others have mentioned. (Reply-To list is usually not a good choice for a list configuration for this and other reasons, and using taboo_headers and taboo_body to stop the individual autoresponder) you should shout very loudly at the postmaster of the site that the mail is autoresponder is coming from if it is not a well behaved autoresponder. Well behaved autoresponders try to avoid mailling to lists in the ways mentioned above. Badly behaved autoresponders should be purged. Scold the postmaster at sites with badly behaved autoresponders. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826 Cranfield Computer Centre FAX 751 814 J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice. From majordomo-users-owner Sun Jul 12 00:30:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA25044; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 00:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk (euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk [138.250.48.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA25037 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 00:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from annex-1-pt4.ccc.cranfield.ac.uk ([138.250.1.207] helo=arpad.thegreen.private ident=cc047) by euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) id 0yvGQ6-00057n-00; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:19:39 +0100 Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:19:35 +0100 (BST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-Sender: cc047@arpad.thegreen.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: Stefania Spina cc: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Majordomo and Notes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: Cranfield University Computer Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > We are planning to run a mailing list in our university using the last > vesion of Majordomo: my question is about its compatibility with Lotus > Notes mailer. Anybody could help? Lotus Notes does some very obnoxious things which show up with all mailing lists. That is, there is no particular problem with majordomo the LN doesn't have with real (Internet) Email in general. Here are the things to watch out for. (1) LN makes it very very easy for people to compose messages as MS-Word documents instead of plain text bodies. Like all "User-Friendly" systems it conceals info from the user, so they don't know this. (2) Many LN systems silently and automatically include an image (of a globe with an envelope orbiting it) in a PCX (Windows Paint Brush) file. Some LN systems (like the one that I have to condend with) do this by having this as uuencoded junk within the message. Others do it as a mime attachement. (3) When someone recieves a message via LN via an SMTP-LN gateway in which the SMTP headers do not include the address of the recipient, it assumes that the messages has been Bcc'ed, and will when displaying the message for the user will included a line like "(Bcc: John_Smith@Some.LN.Server)". This has been known to confuse users. (4) LN users usually receive no or very poor training on the fact that they need to deal with mail to the internet differently then mail within Lotus Notes. Notes users, for exmaple, may routinely send 2 Mb files to hundreds of users and be shocked to be told that that isn't cool. (5) Slashes in Usernames. Some address will have slashes in them. MD by default freaks (and assumes that someone might be trying to add a file name to the list). There is some feature in the majordomo config file which will allow some slashes in email addressers. (6) LN does not preserver all 822 headers. In particular it strips Received: headers, making it very difficult to diagonose problems. Ok. this things with LN can affect MD in two ways. One is if you have participants on a list who use LN, the other is if you have list managers who use MD. For the former, you can solve most problems by putting /^begin\s+\d\d\d/ in taboo_body in the the configs, and have a document ready to point people to warning them about why it is a bad idea to send large messages to lists. (And telling them that they can easily send large messages accidently if their mailer does things behind the scenes). Basically, you just have a larger user education problem with Notes users than with others. You should get list administrators to make use of "end" statements, for MD, since there is no telling what garbage LN will see fit to put into a message. (So far I don't have any LN list administrators, so am just guessing at what the problems will be.) One part of our site uses Lotus Notes, and they occassionly join Internet mailing lists. The do something (usually post the uuencoded PCX files) and get badly flamed. They then come to me, and I tell them what happened, and they ask how to stop sending the PCX file. I say I don't know, they have to talk to their more local LN admin, but they shouldn't send mail to the internet, and especially mailing lists until they've sorted it out. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826 Cranfield Computer Centre FAX 751 814 J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice. From majordomo-users-owner Sun Jul 12 13:44:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA05202; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA05195 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jupiter.Mcs.Net (les@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id PAA08938; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:37:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from les@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id PAA22039; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:37:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Leslie Mikesell Message-Id: <199807122037.PAA22039@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:37:25 -0500 (CDT) Cc: rich.pieri@prescienttech.com, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jul 10, 98 11:48:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Chuq Von Rospach: > > > > 1. qmail's level of parallelization is configurable. The default > > > concurrencyremote, 20, is hardly "massive". > > > > You are looking at numbers; try looking at the ratio. 20 times as many > > connections, a difference of an order of magnitude and then some, is a > > massive difference. > > > qmail calls this a strength; in the real world we call it a denial of > > service attack. > > It's not qmail's problem if the receiver can't handle it. the receiver > should know how to throttle. In sendmail, if you're being overloaded, > tune with MaxDaemonChildren and ConnectionRateThrottle. Sorry, I don't > see this as a denial of service by qmail, but a bad configuration on > the receiving side. Why would any site want to refuse connections that might be urgent individual messages as a result of being abused by an impolite list server hogging the services? Are we going to have to build mail servers that drop more than one simultaneous connection from a single host to protect services correctly on the receiving side? Les Mikesell les@mcs.com From majordomo-users-owner Sun Jul 12 14:30:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA05866; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA05859 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jupiter.Mcs.Net (les@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id QAA09516; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:20:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from les@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id QAA22339; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:20:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Leslie Mikesell Message-Id: <199807122120.QAA22339@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) To: de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:20:32 -0500 (CDT) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <19980710153133.8714.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> from "Dave Sill" at Jul 10, 98 11:31:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Dave Sill: > > > >What is touted as qmail's greatest strength is qmail's greatest flaw. The > >fact that it massively parallelizes delivery means that it can quickly > >choke a network or mail host. > > 1. qmail's level of parallelization is configurable. The default > concurrencyremote, 20, is hardly "massive". > 2. *any* parallelizing MTA can potentially flood a slow link or host. Not if they only parallelize connections to different hosts and deliver to multiple recipients at the same destination over a single connection. (As you would with bulk_mailer or smartlist, etc. plus sendmail). Unfortunately qmail doesn't support this and it's author was not interested in anyone who had limited resources the last time I asked about it. > >And there is nothing that anyone on the > >receiving end of such a throttling can do about it. > > Any MTA that allows itself to accept more connections than it can > handle is broken or severely misconfigured. Is there a way that any of the existing MTA's can be configured to throttle only these list deliveries without causing mail for innocent bystanders to be deferred and queued? Les Mikesell les@mcs.com From majordomo-users-owner Sun Jul 12 15:14:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA06791; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA06784 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18890 ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:14:18 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199807122120.QAA22339@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> References: <19980710153133.8714.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> from "Dave Sill" at Jul 10, 98 11:31:33 am Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:54:39 -0700 To: Leslie Mikesell , de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:20 PM -0700 7/12/98, Leslie Mikesell wrote: > Is there a way that any of the existing MTA's can be configured to > throttle only these list deliveries without causing mail for > innocent bystanders to be deferred and queued? That was exactly what I was describing about my work, back at the start of this thread when the qmail people blew it off as both confusing and unnecessary.... (grin). how to set up your system to maximize an outgoing mailing list system while giving priority to non-bulk mail, and without overloading your system or outgoing connection. And since I'm not dumping lots of parallel connections on a receiving system, I'm not causing the inflow site to spasm. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 00:30:46 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA12131; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mrelay.jrc.org (mrelay.jrc.org [139.191.254.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA12122 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:26:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura.Cengia@jrc.it Received: by mrelay.jrc.org (NPlex 2.0.098); 13 Jul 1998 09:28:08 +0200 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.com Subject: RE: Re: NT Message-Id: <"/GUID:Qtp9DgSEa0hGpxACgySo2+A*/G=Laura/S=Cengia/PRMD=CCRISPRA/ADMD=GARR/C=IT/"@MHS> In-Reply-To: <"/GUID:Qay8TLTE5OTgwNDAxMTQwNw"@MHS> Date: 13 Jul 1998 09:28:37 +0200 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk usubscribe majordomo-users laura.cengia@jrc.it From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 02:30:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id CAA14512; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irafs1.ira.uka.de (irafs1.ira.uka.de [129.13.10.100]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id CAA14496 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isdn224-175.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.20.2] (actually studsun1) by irafs1 with SMTP (PP); Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:28:19 +0200 From: Marc.Haber-lists@gmx.de (Marc Haber) To: Majordomo-Users@greatcircle.com Subject: -outgoing-Lists and Security? Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:27:40 GMT Organization: posting from University of Karlsruhe, Germany X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <"irafs1.ira.111:13.07.98.09.28.27"@ira.uka.de> Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi! When I create lists as recommended by the docs, I not only get the list itself, I also get an "outgoing" list: >test-list:"|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper resend -l test-list -h = lists.mydomain.de test-list-outgoing" >test-list-digest:test-list > >test-list-outgoing: :include:/var/spool/majordomo/lists/test-list >"| /usr/local/majordomo/wrapper digest -r -C -l test-digest = test-digest-outgoing", >"| /usr/local/majordomo/wrapper archive2.pl -a -m >-f /usr/local/mail/archive/test/test.archive" > >test-digest-outgoing::include:/usr/local/Lists/test-digest > >owner-test-list:mh@mydomain.de >owner-test-list-outgoing:owner-test-list > >owner-test-digest:owner-test >owner-test-digest-outgoing:owner-test > >test-list-request: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo -l = test-list" >test-digest-request: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo -l = test-list-digest" > >test-list-approval:mh@bartsch-partner.de, >test-list-digest-approval:test-list-approval I am concerned about "bad" people sending mail to test-list-outgoing instead of test-list. Is that a security risk? Would it be adviseable to configure the MTA not to accept external mail to test-list-outgoing? Any hints will be appreciated. One more question: It seems to be a yet unresolved issue to remove list footers from digests so that not every digested message has the list footer in the digest. Did I miss someting or is deleting the footer from digested messages is not an option at the moment? Greetings Marc --=20 -------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! = ----- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im = Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | Fon: *49 721 966 32= 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fax: *49 721 966 31= 29 From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 04:59:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA17834; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 04:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id EAA17826 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 04:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6119 invoked by uid 3995); 13 Jul 1998 11:59:08 -0000 Message-ID: <19980713115908.6118.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: Russ Allbery Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710174433.10831.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710221708.15107.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >No, qmail doesn't require any patches to Majordomo. I recommend one patch >(to change owner-LIST to LIST-owner) for additional ease of handling >bounces, but it's *not* necessary. Oops, my mistake. Forgot that mjinject obviated the need to force all lists to be stripped. >Dave Sill writes: > >> Translation: sendmail is so slow it'll never choke the receiver, even if >> they're running Solaris 2.6 on SPARCstation 1 with 16MB RAM at the end >> of a tin-can-and-string network. OK, I'm joking. But clearly the >> implication here is that sendmail is better because it's slower. > >No. This is an accurate description of a problem with qmail. I would not >run qmail on the main campus list machine here because it would kill our >mail system. If you have a situation where the vast majority of your >subscribers are at a single host and your list is large, you don't want >qmail. I disagree. qmail is easily throttled by adjusting concurrencyremote. Remote systems on your campus should be configured to accept only as many connections as they can handle. If they do that, everything will work fine. The only thing qmail will break is a poorly managed mail hub. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 05:45:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA18751; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blkbox.com (blkbox.com [206.109.97.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA18744 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (smithd@localhost) by blkbox.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA21345; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:37:33 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:37:33 -0500 (CDT) From: David Smith Reply-To: David Smith To: Marc Haber cc: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: -outgoing-Lists and Security? In-Reply-To: <"irafs1.ira.111:13.07.98.09.28.27"@ira.uka.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Marc Haber wrote: > When I create lists as recommended by the docs, I not only get the > list itself, I also get an "outgoing" list: > [clip] > > I am concerned about "bad" people sending mail to test-list-outgoing > instead of test-list. Is that a security risk? Would it be adviseable > to configure the MTA not to accept external mail to > test-list-outgoing? Yep, that is an issue. There are pretty simple ways of protecting it, not allowing expn and vrfy in sendmail, picking a name other than just list-outgoing, and adding a second reciver (like /dev/null) to the outgoing line will hide it from everyone without access to your system (see my add_list script at for an example). Using bulkmail or another MTA will also hide it. > One more question: It seems to be a yet unresolved issue to remove > list footers from digests so that not every digested message has the > list footer in the digest. Did I miss someting or is deleting the > footer from digested messages is not an option at the moment? from the list config: # digest_rm_footer [word] (undef) # The value is the name of the list that applies the header and # footers to the messages that are received by digest. This allows # the list supplied headers and footers to be stripped before the # messages are included in the digest. This keyword is currently # non operative. digest_rm_footer = # digest_rm_fronter [word] (undef) # Works just like digest_rm_footer, except it removes the front # material. Just like digest_rm_footer, it is also non-operative. digest_rm_fronter = From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 06:00:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA19307; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id FAA19300 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6982 invoked by uid 3995); 13 Jul 1998 13:00:13 -0000 Message-ID: <19980713130013.6981.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <199807122037.PAA22039@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> References: <199807122037.PAA22039@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Why would any site want to refuse connections that might be urgent >individual messages as a result of being abused by an impolite >list server hogging the services? Simple: because it can't tell the difference between high pritority and low priority incoming connections. That's a protocol weakness; it's not qmail's fault. >Are we going to have to build >mail servers that drop more than one simultaneous connection from >a single host to protect services correctly on the receiving side? You could do that, or you could install a higher performance SMTP client that could accept mail from the "evil" remote site as fast as it's sending it. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 06:08:17 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA18905; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA18891 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ben by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.00 #1) for Majordomo-Users@greatcircle.com id 0yvhnk-00004c-00; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:33:52 +0100 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:33:52 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Smithurst To: Majordomo-Users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: -outgoing-Lists and Security? In-Reply-To: <"irafs1.ira.111:13.07.98.09.28.27"@ira.uka.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Marc Haber wrote: > I am concerned about "bad" people sending mail to test-list-outgoing > instead of test-list. Is that a security risk? Would it be adviseable > to configure the MTA not to accept external mail to > test-list-outgoing? Yes, in Exim you can do this by creating a director like this: ## DIRECTORS CONFIGURATION ########################################### majordomo_aliases: # this director is used for Majordomo 'private' aliases, such as # -mkdigest. the condition ensures only mail from Majordomo can # go to these aliases, so people can't put stuff directly into archives driver = aliasfile file = /etc/aliases.majordomo search_type = lsearch user = majordom group = mail condition = "${if eq {$received_protocol}{local} \ {${if eq {$sender_ident}{majordom} \ {true}{false}}}{false}}" Replace /etc/aliases.majordomo with wherever the alias file containing the -outgoing aliases is. You might also want to put the -mkdigest and -mkarchive addresses in there, which add files to digests and archives. I'm sure there are similar ways of doing it in other MTAs. -- Ben Smithurst From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 06:15:06 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA19414; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id GAA19407 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 7067 invoked by uid 3995); 13 Jul 1998 13:04:25 -0000 Message-ID: <19980713130425.7066.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <19980711022025.Z16271@smoe.org> References: <19980710191501.12295.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <199807102049.PAA21912@Venus.mcs.net> <19980710224824.15602.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980711022025.Z16271@smoe.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >One thing to consider: Many large mail servers (such as those >used by large ISPs) have what is known as a 'single copy message >store', so that if a message comes in for more than one >recipient, the message is only stored once (and only takes up >disk space once) and then it is 'linked' into the other >recipients' mailboxes. > >If I were managing the mail service for a large ISP (which I do), >and I was using a mail server with a single copy message store >(which I'm not, currently) I'd be very concerned about the way >qmail-originated messges take up more spool space than a message >that originated from a different MTA. That's a valid concern, but I don't think there's much you can do about it short of hashing messages to detect duplicates. SMTP doesn't mandate the use of multiple RCPT's, so you can't rely on it. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 06:15:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA19219; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id FAA19212 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6913 invoked by uid 3995); 13 Jul 1998 12:55:28 -0000 Message-ID: <19980713125528.6912.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710174433.10831.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710221708.15107.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Dave Sill writes: > >> 1) The sendmail on the system is probably out-of-date and needs to be >> replaced with a newer, more secure version. > >You might want to look at a modern Unix or Unixalike. Most these days ship >with reasonably current versions, or have patches available to make them >current. Even Sun, formerly the biggest offender, ships with current code >(of course, that is because Sun has been funding Erik Allman :). Installing sendmail patches is exactly what I meant by replacing the out-of-the-box sendmail with a newer, more secure version. And it's Eric, with a "c". >> 2) For serious sysadmins, the one-time effort to install a new MTA is >> worth it if it improves performance or makes their job easier >> overall. > >The fact that this argument is occouring at all disproves that claim. What are you talking about?. >Besides, there is no such thing as a one-time installation of a new MTA: >sooner or later, someone will find a flaw. That's a great example of Sendmailthink. "Of *course* the installed sendmail is flawed and will need to be updated regularly. It's always been that way." qmail is different. It's not bug free, but I ran an early beta on one machine for two years before I got around to upgrading it--not because it didn't work, but because it was so old it worked a little differently than the full release. There was no compelling reason to upgrade it, I just wanted to. I'm running 1.01 on my list server, which is a year and a half old and two versions out of date. It works great, and I don't need any of the new features added in 1.02 or 1.03. >But really only a little slower when dealing with fast machines and >networks. And it is in fact faster when dealing with machines and networks >that would be throttled by qmail, precicely because it does not throttle >them. Do you have measurements to back up that claim? >> True. But once upon a time the Majordomo+sendmail community was >> smaller than today's Majordomo+qmail community, and somehow those >> people were able to get the job done. > >Your point to this straw-man? In what sense is that an "argument ... set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated"? >It is a matter of degree. qmail loses because it does not suffer as much >scrutiny as sendmail. The *ONLY* useful gauge of security in the real >world is scrutiny. That's an interesting point of view. >> This is pretty much cancelled out by the converse. Some people are >> tired of scrambling around to fix the sendmail bug du jour. > >That's funny... I haven't seen much in recent years. Most of the sendmail >8.8 patches have been minor things; the significant changes have been in >the anti-spam arena. Sure, it's been a while since there's been a major sendmail security problem. That's due more to the fact that it's been a while since a new class of security problems (e.g., buffer overruns) has been discovered. The advantage of qmail's design is that even if a new class of problems is identified, and in the unlikely event qmail is vulnerable, the damage will be minimized by its compartmentalization. Sendmail, being one, monolithic setuid root binary, will likely give away the family jewels, as it has many times previously. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 07:00:17 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA21066; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:53:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from null.cc.uic.edu (NULL.CC.UIC.EDU [131.193.177.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA21059 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (seva@localhost) by null.cc.uic.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA11383 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:56:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:56:03 -0500 (CDT) From: seva To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: headers in the body In-Reply-To: <19980713130425.7066.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk i upgraded my majordomo to 1.94.4 on red hat linux 5.1 and now my headers, like subject and precedence are in the body instead of where they suppost to be, it seems that majordomo is adding an extra space somewhere... anyone else had a similiar experience? if so please help. /seva From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 07:30:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA21524; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA21517 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA24577 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:26:35 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <199807122037.PAA22039@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> <19980713130013.6981.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 13 Jul 1998 10:26:34 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Mon, 13 Jul 98 09:00:13 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 32 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > Simple: because it can't tell the difference between high pritority > and low priority incoming connections. That's a protocol weakness; > it's not qmail's fault. "Be conservative in what you send." qmail is not conservative in what it sends. While there may be a problem in the protocol, qmail deliberately (and in my opinion maliciously) and unnecessarilly exacerbates it. Obviously you disagree. That is your perogative, just as it is my perogative to take whatever steps are necessary to prevent my network and systems from being "attacked". -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNaoZGZ6VRH7BJMxHAQH2dwP/aAVvt3wly0OV3GoDNliiopz4OynK82/G YOSO/ltcPR1kTvk3TaiswUYawjFsP787pVmSQjBfTcuw8fVnsJN1jmaarDZc0yfh J/TuaEip/0zz5WFPQMMWro5z45ws/zuceJR59LBXXG3gvU1g2V5MIfDfz6aBveft qu8UIDAbKmk= =1C5s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / When not in use, Happy Fun Ball Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / should be returned to its special Prescient Technologies, Inc. / container and kept under I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / refrigeration. From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 08:30:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA22644; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA22637 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA00082 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:32:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807131532.LAA00082@cis.ohio-state.edu> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-reply-to: Your message of "13 Jul 1998 10:26:34 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:31:51 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >"Be conservative in what you send." qmail is not conservative in what it >sends. As has been said before several times, that maxim refers to quality, not quantity. There is nothing qmail sends which is "liberal" in the protocol sense. IIRC L-Soft's L-MAIL behaves similarly in this regard, except few people deride that package nearly as much as qmail. >While there may be a problem in the protocol, qmail deliberately >(and in my opinion maliciously) and unnecessarilly exacerbates it. qmail does what it does for two main reasons: - There are tangible protocol benefits. (RCPT tagging, better bounce handling) - There are tangible performance benefits. (speed) The fact that other mailers might not be able to handle the connection volumes qmail can generate is something _administrators_ need to keep in mind when installing and configuring qmail. It's simply another variable that wasn't there before qmail came on the scene. It's just something to be understood and accounted for, not dismissed as a protocol violation. People said the same things about connection-caching when it came out. Eventually people learned how to deal with it. This is simply another technology race, much like has gone on for years in Usenet. People used the same techniques to speed up news delivery, and the old methods and software had to either cope, be modified, or be abandoned. Nobody used the "be conservative" argument then -- it was a fight to keep up with ever increasing news flow. Well, we have ever-increasing mail flow. The mail people just need to learn the same lessons the Usenet people have already learned. --Dave From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 08:45:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA22971; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA22964 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Venus.mcs.net (les@Venus.mcs.net [192.160.127.92]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id KAA10614; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:42:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from les@localhost) by Venus.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id KAA00965; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:42:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Leslie Mikesell Message-Id: <199807131542.KAA00965@Venus.mcs.net> Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) To: de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:42:19 -0500 (CDT) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <19980713130013.6981.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> from "Dave Sill" at Jul 13, 98 09:00:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Dave Sill: > > Leslie Mikesell wrote: > > > >Why would any site want to refuse connections that might be urgent > >individual messages as a result of being abused by an impolite > >list server hogging the services? > > Simple: because it can't tell the difference between high pritority > and low priority incoming connections. That's a protocol weakness; > it's not qmail's fault. The protocol authors probably never dreamed anyone would intentionally abuse other site's resources in this way. Or (considering the time frame) that anyone could afford to waste their own outbound bandwidth. And given that qmail is the *only* major MTA that doesn't make any effort to be efficient, I have to think that it is qmail's fault. The argument reminds me of the guy who took the slow-start out of his tcp stack and speeded up the retry timers and claimed that since his tests showed it was faster that way the Internet would work better if everyone did it. > >Are we going to have to build > >mail servers that drop more than one simultaneous connection from > >a single host to protect services correctly on the receiving side? > > You could do that, or you could install a higher performance SMTP > client that could accept mail from the "evil" remote site as fast as > it's sending it. If you are filling my inbound bandwidth, how do you expect me to deal with it by replacing software? I have several lists using smartlist/sendmail on a so-so pentium that saturate a T1 outbound during delivery. My router stats show >120kBs/s for 5 minute averages and contrary to DJB's claims only a small portion of this is DNS. If qmail is faster than this as everyone claims, how can it avoid overwhelming everything else at a site with many recipients getting copies on separate connections? Les Mikesell les@mcs.com From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 09:14:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA23694; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA23687 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA27964 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:11:09 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <199807131542.KAA00965@Venus.mcs.net> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 13 Jul 1998 12:11:09 -0400 In-Reply-To: Leslie Mikesell's message of "Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:42:19 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 40 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.13/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Leslie Mikesell writes: > The protocol authors probably never dreamed anyone would intentionally > abuse other site's resources in this way. You hit it on the head. They firmly believed in the concept of "be liberal in what you accept, conservative in what you send". If everyone is conservative in what they send, there is no need to institute measures to prevent being throttled. Since the functioning of the ARPAnet required tremendous ammounts of cooperation, they never imagined that anyone would be abusive. Such activity would cause the whole thing to collapse. [...] > If qmail is faster than this as everyone claims, how can it avoid > overwhelming everything else at a site with many recipients getting > copies on separate connections? Fact is it cannot, and qmail's proponents refuse to accept that fact, and refuse to admit that it is a problem. Instead, they say things like, "I have been using qmail for years and I have never had a problem with it". -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNaoxhp6VRH7BJMxHAQFmbgQAhg2OJZH4cee4z/0xq1gF3GRS2M905bqf zf4yZ6k/1AW/Cs/dvCnufVlL2TzlkuPEVHFMywXdxG3TLI1W7quhLNL7yzuTmNzy NflXtmdHb6yWMH7Qid1vlCanA5eeg+ryY+lj6Qt0vHYCU2mPngqriiat/7m1xzI8 Xm6MxMFq9hA= =x3JW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Warning: pregnant women, the Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / elderly, and children under 10 Prescient Technologies, Inc. / should avoid prolonged exposure to I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / Happy Fun Ball. From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 09:30:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA24164; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irafs1.ira.uka.de (irafs1.ira.uka.de [129.13.10.100]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id JAA24157 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isdn224-128.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.20.2] (actually studsun1) by irafs1 with SMTP (PP); Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:30:44 +0200 From: Marc.Haber-lists@gmx.de (Marc Haber) To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: -outgoing-Lists and Security? Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:30:05 GMT Organization: posting from University of Karlsruhe, Germany References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <"irafs1.ira.872:13.07.98.16.31.00"@ira.uka.de> Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:33:52 +0100 (BST), Ben Smithurst wrote: >On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Marc Haber wrote: >> I am concerned about "bad" people sending mail to test-list-outgoing >> instead of test-list. Is that a security risk? Would it be adviseable >> to configure the MTA not to accept external mail to >> test-list-outgoing? > >Yes, in Exim you can do this by creating a director like this: > >## DIRECTORS CONFIGURATION ########################################### > >majordomo_aliases: > # this director is used for Majordomo 'private' aliases, such as > # -mkdigest. the condition ensures only mail from Majordomo can > # go to these aliases, so people can't put stuff directly into = archives > driver =3D aliasfile > file =3D /etc/aliases.majordomo > search_type =3D lsearch > user =3D majordom > group =3D mail > condition =3D "${if eq {$received_protocol}{local} \ > {${if eq {$sender_ident}{majordom} \ > {true}{false}}}{false}}" > >Replace /etc/aliases.majordomo with wherever the alias file containing >the -outgoing aliases is. You might also want to put the -mkdigest and >-mkarchive addresses in there, which add files to digests and >archives. So I have to put the "internal" aliases into a different aliasfile? Greetings Marc --=20 -------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! = ----- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im = Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | Fon: *49 721 966 32= 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fax: *49 721 966 31= 29 From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 10:00:43 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA24745; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id JAA24738 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.43] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0yvluJ-0007ea-00; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:56:55 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980713175706.007f5eb0@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:57:06 +0100 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: -outgoing-Lists and Security? In-Reply-To: <"irafs1.ira.872:13.07.98.16.31.00"@ira.uka.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >So I have to put the "internal" aliases into a different aliasfile? That's the idea ... From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 11:15:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA25915; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA25908 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA14606; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:15:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a011.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA25881; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:15:50 -0400 From: jkaplan@world.std.com (Jeffrey Kaplan) To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: -outgoing-Lists and Security? Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:15:12 -0400 Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die Message-Id: <35b04df6.3069479@world.std.com> References: <"irafs1.ira.111:13.07.98.09.28.27"@ira.uka.de> In-Reply-To: <"irafs1.ira.111:13.07.98.09.28.27"@ira.uka.de> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hey Marc Haber! I got your message about -outgoing-Lists and Security?: ; When I create lists as recommended by the docs, I not only get the ; list itself, I also get an "outgoing" list: ; ; >test-list:"|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper resend -l test-list -h lists.mydomain.de test-list-outgoing" ; >test-list-outgoing: :include:/var/spool/majordomo/lists/test-list [snip] ; I am concerned about "bad" people sending mail to test-list-outgoing ; instead of test-list. Is that a security risk? Would it be adviseable Personally, I don't know about configuring the MTA, but what was done at this site was to alter the -outgoing alias to something non-standard. It doesn't really matter what it is, as long as it's internally consistent between the two lines in the aliases file. -- Jeffrey Kaplan <*> I'm set up for PGP. Are you? jkapllan@world.std.com <*> There's only one "l" in my name. There is no need to copy to me via email a newsgroup follow-up. The World does not necessarily agree with my opinions. "So you stopped the war in order to avoid harming your own souls?" (Lt. Cmdr. Ivonova, B5 "Points of Departure") From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 11:30:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA26316; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA26309 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.43] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0yvnJ2-0000ae-00; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:26:32 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980713192642.008f57f0@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:26:42 +0100 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: -outgoing-Lists and Security? In-Reply-To: <35b04df6.3069479@world.std.com> References: <"irafs1.ira.111:13.07.98.09.28.27"@ira.uka.de> <"irafs1.ira.111:13.07.98.09.28.27"@ira.uka.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Personally, I don't know about configuring the MTA, but what was done >at this site was to alter the -outgoing alias to something >non-standard. It doesn't really matter what it is, as long as it's >internally consistent between the two lines in the aliases file. The problem with this is that it relies purely on people not being able to guess/find out this non-default alias which is a little risky. You can argue over how much better making the alias un-mailable from remote sites but it's clearly better. Still chaning from -outgoing to something "unguessable" is a *big* improvement on leaving it as -outgoing. Manar From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 12:00:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA27030; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsn.org (gsn.org [199.106.67.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA27023 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from erica (qnet.gsn.org [207.155.35.139]) by gsn.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA00354; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:50:59 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Erica Zubkoff" To: "Allan Ku - Desktop Hardware Engineering" Cc: Subject: RE: Alphabitizing the subscription list Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:51:38 -0700 Message-ID: <07ca01bdae8f$44092bd0$0100000a@erica> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Allan, Try setting your list.config files to "strip = yes". The "strip" feature strips everything from the email except the "user@domain.com" piece and therefore makes the sort function under UNIX much more useful. -Erica __________ http://www.gsn.org ____________ Global SchoolNet Foundation Erica Zubkoff System Administrator http://www.gsn.org/who/team/ez.bio.html erica@gsn.org P.O. Box 2709 BUS: (760)249-5140 Wrightwood, CA 92397 ___________________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM > [mailto:majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM]On Behalf Of Allan Ku - > Desktop Hardware Engineering > Sent: Saturday, July 11, 1998 10:45 PM > To: zulander@rehtori.kasanen.fi; mbialik@infinityhealthcare.com > Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM > Subject: Re: Alphabitizing the subscription list > > > >From: "Mark A. Bialik" > > Ed Rogers wrote: > > > > > Anyone know of a quick and easy way to alphabatize a LONG list of > > > subscribers on a list without doing it by hand? Is there a script for > > > that? > > > > Well, on a UNIX system, try this from the shell: > > > > sort -f listname > listname.out > > mv listname.out listname > > I've been meaning to ask this question myself. > > while Mark's answer (using sort) is good, you start facing > problems when the list > exceeds 50 or so. > Typically one would ask for a sorted list because one wants to > check whether a > particular person's email is on the list (and if it's correct). > But there're so many > valid forms that one's email address can be registed on the list: > > eg. > Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) > Stephen Campbell > "Majordomo Users @ NRS" > > aku@ippon.east.sun.com > > I picked the above randomly from our list > (sorry Brent and Stephen, but this list is open anyways > any complains, phone 1800-why-meee ;) > > if sorted it would look like this: > "Majordomo Users @ NRS" > > Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) > Stephen Campbell > aku@ippon.east.sun.com > > which isn't particularly helpful to search by names or emails at > a glance 'specially > if the list is of size over thousands. > > Of course, for us admin's there many ways to search by names or > email (vi, grep, emacs > etc etc etc); but our customer (lists owners) typically don't > possess knowledges in > this realm. So here is my question (finally): > > A) Has anyone out there written a perl script to process the > lists such the all the > addresses will be converted to "Surnames, First_names > sorted?? > That way, the list will be easy to read in a glance even by a rookie. > > If anyone has I'd like to snatch it. I was about to write one > myself; but hey, why > re-invent the wheels? > > B) Anyone knows if A) is planed to be included in the next > version of majordomo? > > TIA > > --Allan () > _____________________________________________ \ | _____ > ~ () . __| > Allan Tze-Ming Ku /\_..| WW|\ > ASIC CAE/DFT Engineer ~ _/\ /_() | > Workgroup Server Hardware Engineering ` / __/ | > Sun Microsystems Inc ' \/ | > Chelmsford, Massachusetts ~ '\ | > (978) 442-0856 w ' | > __________________________________________________________________|_____ > From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 12:29:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA27838; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA27822 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from East.Sun.COM ([129.148.1.241]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id MAA21692; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:28:04 -0700 Received: from suneast.East.Sun.COM by East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id PAA22128; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:28:01 -0400 Received: from ippon.East.Sun.COM by suneast.East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA20061; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:28:02 -0400 Received: from ippon by ippon.East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA14598; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:28:02 -0400 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:28:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Allan Ku - Desktop Hardware Engineering Reply-To: Allan Ku - Desktop Hardware Engineering Subject: RE: Alphabitizing the subscription list To: aku@ippon.East.Sun.COM, erica@gsn.org Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: vO+D8CfjvNk4VtjZfSskDQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.1.0 CDE Version 1.1 SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u sparc Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hey Erica: Thanks for the suggestion, I didn't know there was a "strip" directive. However I don't think I will be using it because when my customers (list owners) and his/her customers want to do a search, they typically don't know the persons email address; which means the full name will be necessary and I probably don't want to strip it out. Sigh, looks like I'll have to write my own subroutine to do the job... thx anyways Erica. :) > From: "Erica Zubkoff" > To: "Allan Ku - Desktop Hardware Engineering" > Cc: > Subject: RE: Alphabitizing the subscription list > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Priority: 3 (Normal) > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > Importance: Normal > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 > > Allan, > > Try setting your list.config files to "strip = yes". > The "strip" feature strips everything from the email > except the "user@domain.com" piece and therefore makes > the sort function under UNIX much more useful. > > -Erica > __________ http://www.gsn.org ____________ > Global SchoolNet Foundation > Erica Zubkoff System Administrator > http://www.gsn.org/who/team/ez.bio.html > > erica@gsn.org P.O. Box 2709 > BUS: (760)249-5140 Wrightwood, CA 92397 > ___________________________________________ > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM > > [mailto:majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM]On Behalf Of Allan Ku - > > Desktop Hardware Engineering > > Sent: Saturday, July 11, 1998 10:45 PM > > To: zulander@rehtori.kasanen.fi; mbialik@infinityhealthcare.com > > Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM > > Subject: Re: Alphabitizing the subscription list > > > > > > >From: "Mark A. Bialik" > > > Ed Rogers wrote: > > > > > > > Anyone know of a quick and easy way to alphabatize a LONG list of > > > > subscribers on a list without doing it by hand? Is there a script for > > > > that? > > > > > > Well, on a UNIX system, try this from the shell: > > > > > > sort -f listname > listname.out > > > mv listname.out listname > > > > I've been meaning to ask this question myself. > > > > while Mark's answer (using sort) is good, you start facing > > problems when the list > > exceeds 50 or so. > > Typically one would ask for a sorted list because one wants to > > check whether a > > particular person's email is on the list (and if it's correct). > > But there're so many > > valid forms that one's email address can be registed on the list: > > > > eg. > > Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) > > Stephen Campbell > > "Majordomo Users @ NRS" > > > > aku@ippon.east.sun.com > > > > I picked the above randomly from our list > > (sorry Brent and Stephen, but this list is open anyways > > any complains, phone 1800-why-meee ;) > > > > if sorted it would look like this: > > "Majordomo Users @ NRS" > > > > Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) > > Stephen Campbell > > aku@ippon.east.sun.com > > > > which isn't particularly helpful to search by names or emails at > > a glance 'specially > > if the list is of size over thousands. > > > > Of course, for us admin's there many ways to search by names or > > email (vi, grep, emacs > > etc etc etc); but our customer (lists owners) typically don't > > possess knowledges in > > this realm. So here is my question (finally): > > > > A) Has anyone out there written a perl script to process the > > lists such the all the > > addresses will be converted to "Surnames, First_names > > > sorted?? > > That way, the list will be easy to read in a glance even by a rookie. > > > > If anyone has I'd like to snatch it. I was about to write one > > myself; but hey, why > > re-invent the wheels? > > > > B) Anyone knows if A) is planed to be included in the next > > version of majordomo? > > > > TIA > > > > --Allan () > > _____________________________________________ \ | _____ > > ~ () . __| > > Allan Tze-Ming Ku /\_..| WW|\ > > ASIC CAE/DFT Engineer ~ _/\ /_() | > > Workgroup Server Hardware Engineering ` / __/ | > > Sun Microsystems Inc ' \/ | > > Chelmsford, Massachusetts ~ '\ | > > (978) 442-0856 w ' | > > __________________________________________________________________|_____ > > From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 12:45:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA28421; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA28401 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 13379 invoked by uid 3995); 13 Jul 1998 19:44:45 -0000 Message-ID: <19980713194445.13378.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <199807131542.KAA00965@Venus.mcs.net> References: <19980713130013.6981.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <199807131542.KAA00965@Venus.mcs.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >The protocol authors probably never dreamed anyone would intentionally >abuse other site's resources in this way. Or (considering the time >frame) that anyone could afford to waste their own outbound bandwidth. It'll be hard for us to come to terms until you stop using loaded terms like "abuse" and "waste". I know you're upset, but that doesn't help. The protocol authors undoubtedly realized that a site could control their level of SMTP traffic simply by refusing connections at a preconfigured threshold and reallowing them at another, lower threshold. Relying on the remote site to Do The Right Thing is folly because (a) not all remote sites are nice guys, and (b) even the nice guys have no idea what your resources are--nor, in my opinion, should they have to try to deduce them or assume they're minimal. >And given that qmail is the *only* major MTA that doesn't make any effort >to be efficient, It doesn't make any effort to minimize bandwidth, if that's what you mean. People who use qmail are more interested in speeding up message delivery than saving SMTP bandwidth. See Dan Bernstein's Modest Proposal for an entertaining treatment of the bandwidth topic: ftp://koobera.math.uic.edu/www/sarcasm/modest-proposal.txt >I have to think that it is qmail's fault. The argument reminds me of >the guy who took the slow-start out of his tcp stack and speeded up >the retry timers and claimed that since his tests showed it was >faster that way the Internet would work better if everyone did it. I'm not familiar with the details of slow-start and retry timers. Sounds like "Death of the Net predicted. Details at eleven." >If you are filling my inbound bandwidth, how do you expect me to >deal with it by replacing software? Replace it with software that, for the umpteenth time, doesn't accept connections it can't handle. If ten SMTP sessions are all you can handle with your bandwidth, don't accept more than ten simultaneous connections. Even sendmail can approximate this with maxdaemonchildren. >... If qmail is faster than this as everyone claims, how can >it avoid overwhelming everything else at a site with many recipients >getting copies on separate connections? Don't accept...well, you've heard it before enough times by now that it's either gotten through, or it's not going to. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 13:14:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA28833; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA28826 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ben by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.00 #1) for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com id 0yvn0o-0004rm-00; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:07:42 +0100 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:07:42 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Smithurst To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: -outgoing-Lists and Security? In-Reply-To: <"irafs1.ira.872:13.07.98.16.31.00"@ira.uka.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Marc Haber wrote: > So I have to put the "internal" aliases into a different aliasfile? Yes, I think so. It was Manar who told me how to do that, so you might be better off asking him... -- Ben Smithurst From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 13:23:47 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA28760; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA28753 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA20772 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:06:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Dave Sill cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <19980713194445.13378.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: > The protocol authors undoubtedly realized that a site could control > their level of SMTP traffic simply by refusing connections at a > preconfigured threshold and reallowing them at another, lower > threshold. Relying on the remote site to Do The Right Thing is folly > because (a) not all remote sites are nice guys, and (b) even the nice > guys have no idea what your resources are--nor, in my opinion, should > they have to try to deduce them or assume they're minimal. This stuff was designed at a time when (a) all remote sites WERE nice guys, and (b) everyone was clever enough to know what their resources are. > Replace it with software that, for the umpteenth time, doesn't accept > connections it can't handle. If ten SMTP sessions are all you can > handle with your bandwidth, don't accept more than ten simultaneous > connections. Even sendmail can approximate this with > maxdaemonchildren. If I only have the CPU and memory resources to support ten simultaneous listeners, you can deliver mail to me much more efficiently by sending all of it to one listener. This has nothing to do with throttling bandwidth. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 13:45:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA29809; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA29802 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA03473 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:45:56 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 13 Jul 1998 16:45:56 -0400 In-Reply-To: "Roger B.A. Klorese"'s message of "Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:06:40 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 35 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Roger B A Klorese writes: > If I only have the CPU and memory resources to support ten simultaneous > listeners, you can deliver mail to me much more efficiently by sending all > of it to one listener. This has nothing to do with throttling bandwidth. This brings up one of my pet rants. "Effiency" and "effectiveness" are not synonymous. A nice analogy which is not too badly broken is the concept of getting 40 people from point A to point B. While my Dodge Neon gets something like 35MPG average and a school bus gets something like 10MPG, the school bus needs to make but one trip while me and my Neon would need to make 10 trips. Yes, my Neon is a much more "efficient" mode of transportation, but under those conditions it is not the most effective. Sure, I could call in a few buddies who also own Neons to help out, but all of us would be wondering if that is the best way to do things even if we do manage to use less gasoline. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNapyA56VRH7BJMxHAQFfUQP6A0f3K6pFocsc89ZrHh/7avdbhHv6RKBK 7Lq4pcSzauD+6U2Fg/4Rsj+XzpbFgNzOoP6RTvzyShVUjSreWV0SXB0EZjdRnv2C g8i0Ekb4dHJ4d9wR0o+Qq3Kr8VWPAqP6ubHsozIM4SFnhfh3isp/VY1LPXzAi5ko XY6p/cuLJYk= =YldX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / get away immediately. Seek shelter Prescient Technologies, Inc. / and cover head. I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 13:59:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA00389; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.wizvax.net ([199.181.141.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA00381 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from foodchain (ts2p21.wizvax.net [204.97.162.86]) by mailgate.wizvax.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.Beta3) with SMTP id RAA20265; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:02:11 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980713165855.007da6a0@krusty-motorsports.com> X-Sender: rweltynw@krusty-motorsports.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:58:55 -0400 To: Rich Pieri , majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: Richard Welty Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <"Roger B.A. Klorese"'s message of "Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:06:40 -0700 (PDT)"> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 04:45 PM 7/13/98 -0400, Rich Pieri wrote: > >This brings up one of my pet rants. "Effiency" and "effectiveness" are not >synonymous. A nice analogy which is not too badly broken is the concept of >getting 40 people from point A to point B. to give an example which is directly to the point: i have several hundred AOL subscribers on one of my lists. AOL MX hosts are notorious for being overloaded and hard to deliver to. if i use an intelligently conceived MTA, then when i do manage to get a connection to AOL, i stand a good chance of getting the bulk of my AOL queue cleared out in one session. if i use qmail, instead of clearing out a lot of mail, i will probably aggravate the already bad situation at AOL. now it's easy to argue that AOL should fix their mail servers, but what are the chances of that really happening? richard (i'll stick with exim; it works good for that sort of thing) -- Richard Welty NeWorks Networking, Inc. 518-244-9675 rwelty@neworks.net http://www.neworks.net/ From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 14:14:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA00217; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA00208 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA03672 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:54:27 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <19980713130013.6981.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <199807131542.KAA00965@Venus.mcs.net> <19980713194445.13378.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 13 Jul 1998 16:54:27 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Mon, 13 Jul 98 15:44:45 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 42 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > The protocol authors undoubtedly realized that a site could control > their level of SMTP traffic simply by refusing connections at a > preconfigured threshold and reallowing them at another, lower > threshold. There is always latency in such measurement. By the time the SMTP server realizes that it has hit the threshold, it may have already been vastly exceeded. > Relying on the remote site to Do The Right Thing is folly because (a) not > all remote sites are nice guys, and (b) even the nice guys have no idea > what your resources are--nor, in my opinion, should they have to try to > deduce them or assume they're minimal. Which is why nice guys are conservative in what they send. They don't know how much traffic my site can handle; therefore nice guys try to be conservative in what they send so as to avoid overloading me. And yet you maintain that qmail does not need to be nice, that qmail does not need to be conservative in what it sends, that qmail's overloading my site is somehow my fault. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNap0AZ6VRH7BJMxHAQG2WQP9EyMj9M2v6Abh4qbUFtcnmpLKtgz9XwIA OjxyQB0i01m8qqBWFt0foQ3BQ9MvwTxPV72Q7tPgIOhHG7M5Xndg/0NSgzb8UcNN 68BNlp4MErGcvGHHKsAgRDIsEulSPQohUnA70aXiUXeX99R6VVcVEX6EC/b87bJf Uu6YwfZwmp0= =FGb8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / include an unknown glowing Prescient Technologies, Inc. / substance which fell to Earth, I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / presumably from outer space. From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 15:45:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA02200; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA02193 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA06057 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:47:05 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <"Roger B.A. Klorese"'s message of "Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:06:40 -0700 (PDT)"> <3.0.5.32.19980713165855.007da6a0@krusty-motorsports.com> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 13 Jul 1998 18:47:04 -0400 In-Reply-To: Richard Welty's message of "Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:58:55 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 43 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Richard Welty writes: > i have several hundred AOL subscribers on one of my lists. AOL MX hosts > are notorious for being overloaded and hard to deliver to. if i use an > intelligently conceived MTA, then when i do manage to get a connection to > AOL, i stand a good chance of getting the bulk of my AOL queue cleared > out in one session. This is where sendmail (+bulk_mailer) and exim connection caching is a really big win. Once you have a connection, these MTAs will keep that one connection open for several minutes. [...] > now it's easy to argue that AOL should fix their mail servers, but what > are the chances of that really happening? For the record it is not AOL's servers being broken per se. I know the guy what set them up: Brad Knowles, whom you might know better as the maintainer of the sendmail FAQ. If anyone knows how to fine-tune sendmail, he does. So, knowing that, I believe you have the perfect example of why qmail can be a bad choice of MTA. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNaqOZp6VRH7BJMxHAQFFuwP+K9RWJ89aoUyFxTRrU35ZYjCWh3tKN1LV iWmbNr+BmzMrmeRMPRNGb7RRjqURzKg06Z+eCz5u9nL3N77kqpvEmYjCao55kbrq rAEEb4bXG+HLzmPWmoZk+sgSxR87DQBVrlE0ziv5FAwADz3Y8y+VPgY+4rZ2acMG PQm2lpsnsww= =a54x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / core, which, if exposed due to Prescient Technologies, Inc. / rupture, should not be touched, I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / inhaled, or looked at. From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 17:44:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA03530; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA03523 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA07933 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:38:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nbw-nj9-31.ix.netcom.com(198.211.225.159) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma007925; Mon Jul 13 19:38:15 1998 Organization: Hot's HideAway X-Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer Message-Id: <4.0.1.19980713202842.00f9e6e0@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: hot2trot@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:31:17 -0400 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: hot2trot@bigfoot.com (Burt Juda) Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <199807131542.KAA00965@Venus.mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:11 PM 7/13/98 -0400, Rich Pieri wrote: >> If qmail is faster than this as everyone claims, how can it avoid >> overwhelming everything else at a site with many recipients getting >> copies on separate connections? > >Fact is it cannot, and qmail's proponents refuse to accept that fact, and >refuse to admit that it is a problem. Instead, they say things like, "I >have been using qmail for years and I have never had a problem with it". Of course! The qmail systems don't HAVE the problems; they simply CAUSE them! :)) -- ========================================= Burt Juda E-Mail: hot2trot@bigfoot.com WebPage = http://www.bigfoot.com/~hot2trot/ ========================================= From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 18:00:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA03927; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA03920 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dante23.u.washington.edu (jmorace@dante23.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.73]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id SAA18904 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:00:22 -0700 Received: from localhost (jmorace@localhost) by dante23.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id SAA70860 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:00:22 -0700 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:00:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Morace To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Archive Searching Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have been looking for a web interface for majordomo archives, and have found several which will sort by thread, date, and author. Does anyone know of an archive searching utility that is preferably free? I believe I am going to use the lwgate interface for the command interface. Something that would fit together well with that would be perfect. Thanks, Jonathan From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 18:14:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA04334; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spot1.fvcc.cc.mt.us (spot1.fvcc.cc.mt.us [207.196.176.209]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA04325 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aerie.fvcc.cc.mt.us (aerie.fvcc.cc.mt.us [207.196.176.210]) by spot1.fvcc.cc.mt.us (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA17829 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:12:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807140112.TAA17829@spot1.fvcc.cc.mt.us> From: "Rick Owens" Organization: Flathead Valley Community College To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:12:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-reply-to: <4.0.1.19980713202842.00f9e6e0@popd.ix.netcom.com> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 13 Jul 98, at 20:31, Burt Juda wrote: > At 12:11 PM 7/13/98 -0400, Rich Pieri wrote: > >> If qmail is faster than this as everyone claims, how can it avoid > >> overwhelming everything else at a site with many recipients getting > >> copies on separate connections? > > > >Fact is it cannot, and qmail's proponents refuse to accept that fact, and > >refuse to admit that it is a problem. Instead, they say things like, "I > >have been using qmail for years and I have never had a problem with it". > > Of course! The qmail systems don't HAVE the problems; they simply CAUSE > them! :)) :D See tagline. FWLIW, I'd like to express my appreciation of this debate; while it isn't directly about Majordomo, it covers a number of issues I've had questions about in relation to MD. I've never used an MTA other than Sendmail, and it's interesting to see information and opinions about others, particularly when it comes to using them with mailing lists, and particularly from experts. Thank you! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick Owens | FVCC, Kalispell, MT, USA, Sol 3 #include "Even if you don't suffer from stress, you may still be a carrier." -------------------------------------------------------------------- From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 19:44:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA05956; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA05948 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aw3 ([24.3.20.241]) by ha1.rdc1.md.home.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA1464; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:38:43 -0700 Message-ID: <003f01bdaed0$98da0ee0$0200a8c0@aw3.awcubed.com> Reply-To: "Archie Warnock" From: "Archie Warnock" To: "Jonathan Morace" Cc: Subject: Re: Archive Searching Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:39:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ftp://ftp.cnidr.org/pub/software/Isite/Isite-2.01c contains Isearch, a full-text search engine which handles mail folders, and which includes a CGI gateway as well. It's all Unix-based, although the search engine has also been ported to NT. And it's free. Archie -- Archie Warnock Internet: warnock@clark.net -- A/WWW Enterprises Phone/FAX: 301-854-2987 -- http://www.clark.net/pub/warnock/awww.html -- As a matter of fact, I _do_ speak for my employer. -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Morace To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Date: Monday, July 13, 1998 9:11 PM Subject: Archive Searching >I have been looking for a web interface for majordomo archives, and have >found several which will sort by thread, date, and author. Does anyone >know of an archive searching utility that is preferably free? I believe I >am going to use the lwgate interface for the command interface. Something >that would fit together well with that would be perfect. From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 13 22:15:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA07817; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA07810 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:03:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mercury.mcs.net (les@Mercury.mcs.net [192.160.127.80]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id AAA19617; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:06:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from les@localhost) by Mercury.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id AAA25355; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:06:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Leslie Mikesell Message-Id: <199807140506.AAA25355@Mercury.mcs.net> Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) To: de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:06:18 -0500 (CDT) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <19980713194445.13378.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> from "Dave Sill" at Jul 13, 98 03:44:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Dave Sill: > > >The protocol authors probably never dreamed anyone would intentionally > >abuse other site's resources in this way. Or (considering the time > >frame) that anyone could afford to waste their own outbound bandwidth. > > It'll be hard for us to come to terms until you stop using loaded > terms like "abuse" and "waste". I know you're upset, but that doesn't > help. Look at it from the perspective of a business paying for the bandwidth the business needs and trying to accomodate users' mailing list subscriptions as a low priority item and I don't see how else you can describe it. > The protocol authors undoubtedly realized that a site could control > their level of SMTP traffic simply by refusing connections at a > preconfigured threshold and reallowing them at another, lower > threshold. Relying on the remote site to Do The Right Thing is folly > because (a) not all remote sites are nice guys, and (b) even the nice > guys have no idea what your resources are--nor, in my opinion, should > they have to try to deduce them or assume they're minimal. > > >And given that qmail is the *only* major MTA that doesn't make any effort > >to be efficient, > > It doesn't make any effort to minimize bandwidth, if that's what you > mean. People who use qmail are more interested in speeding up message > delivery than saving SMTP bandwidth. See Dan Bernstein's Modest > Proposal for an entertaining treatment of the bandwidth topic: > > ftp://koobera.math.uic.edu/www/sarcasm/modest-proposal.txt Yes, but even without reading that it was clear that DJB never had to make a business justification for the cost of bandwidth, and almost certainly never delt with gatewaying between the Internet and a private more expensive internal network connecting remote offices. Having to forward multiple copies over these slower links is much more of an issue than accepting them off the internet (which is bad enough). > >I have to think that it is qmail's fault. The argument reminds me of > >the guy who took the slow-start out of his tcp stack and speeded up > >the retry timers and claimed that since his tests showed it was > >faster that way the Internet would work better if everyone did it. > > I'm not familiar with the details of slow-start and retry > timers. Sounds like "Death of the Net predicted. Details at eleven." The gist of it is that the right thing to do in the face of IP congestion (the usual problem) is to back off the retries so eventually something will make it through the overloaded routers. However, any single endpoint can measure better recovery time at everyone elses' expense by speeding up the retries instead. > >If you are filling my inbound bandwidth, how do you expect me to > >deal with it by replacing software? > > Replace it with software that, for the umpteenth time, doesn't accept > connections it can't handle. If ten SMTP sessions are all you can > handle with your bandwidth, don't accept more than ten simultaneous > connections. Even sendmail can approximate this with > maxdaemonchildren. And for an equal number of times, the last thing I want to do is to drop the connections that are paying for the line because some single site is unwilling to send things in a way that can be handled efficiently. > >... If qmail is faster than this as everyone claims, how can > >it avoid overwhelming everything else at a site with many recipients > >getting copies on separate connections? > > Don't accept...well, you've heard it before enough times by now that > it's either gotten through, or it's not going to. The only reasonable response is going to be to hack sendmail so it won't accept more than a certain number of connections from any single site within a certain time frame. It certainly is not reasonable to refuse other connections at random. Les Mikesell les@mcs.com From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 01:00:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA09666; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA09610 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mbb4.ericsson.se (mbb4.ericsson.se [136.225.152.56]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.9.0/8.9.0/glacier-1.11) with ESMTP id JAA12220 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:56:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ericom.ericsson.se by mbb4.ericsson.se (PMDF V5.1-10 #23296) with ESMTP id <0EW2002KLRFGON@mbb4.ericsson.se> for majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:57:16 +0200 (MET) Received: from madrid.ericsson.se (madrid.ericsson.se [164.48.87.150]) by ericom.ericsson.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA27865 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:56:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from celanova by madrid.ericsson.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA01855; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:51:44 +0200 Received: by celanova (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA03416; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:51:41 +0200 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:51:41 +0200 From: ememgfe@madrid.ericsson.se (Modesto Garrido Feijoo t.2156 d.LEG1317) Subject: How to munge adress in my archives? To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <199807140751.JAA03416@celanova> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I would like to munge the mail address (I would like to filter the address and munge it at least by removing the @ and . ) only in the list archive and in the digest files of my list. we use majordomo 1.94.4 and sendmail, but as I am only a list owner I'm not an expert in majordomo config and I have to give your anwers to the majordomo-owner... Thanks in advance and Best regards Modesto From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 02:45:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id CAA12475; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk (euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk [138.250.48.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA12461 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nassau.pegasus.cranfield.ac.uk ([138.250.1.183]) by euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) id 0yw1NB-0003hE-00; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:27:45 +0100 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:27:43 +0100 (BST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-Sender: cc047@nassau.pegasus.cranfield.ac.uk Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: Rich Pieri cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Effeciency and effectiveness [Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: Cranfield University Computer Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I tend to almost always agree with just about everything Rich Pieri says. so when he gets something wrong (IMO) I do point it out. On 13 Jul 1998, Rich Pieri wrote: > This brings up one of my pet rants. "Effiency" and "effectiveness" are not > synonymous. True. It is one of my pet rants as well. > A nice analogy which is not too badly broken is the concept of > getting 40 people from point A to point B. While my Dodge Neon gets > something like 35MPG average and a school bus gets something like 10MPG, > the school bus needs to make but one trip while me and my Neon would need > to make 10 trips. Yes, my Neon is a much more "efficient" mode of > transportation, but under those conditions it is not the most effective. > Sure, I could call in a few buddies who also own Neons to help out, but all > of us would be wondering if that is the best way to do things even if we do > manage to use less gasoline. Sorry, the difference between your schemes was a question of efficiency only, although it is a complex question about efficiency since there are many resources considered. Effectives is how thoroughly the job is completed. Imagine that you had a bus that carried 39 people quickly and with low fuel consumption. The other option is to move them across town in a 747 (which would hold all 40 people). The latter would be more effective in that you would get more (all) of the job done. The former would be more efficient, although it would not be entirely effective. Something is effective if it does the job. Something is efficient if it does what it does consuming fewer resources. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826 Cranfield Computer Centre FAX 751 814 J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice. From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 02:54:52 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id CAA12426; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irafs1.ira.uka.de (irafs1.ira.uka.de [129.13.10.100]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id CAA12407 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isdn224-110.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.20.2] (actually studsun1) by irafs1 with SMTP (PP); Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:21:50 +0200 From: Marc.Haber-lists@gmx.de (Marc Haber) To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: getting one digest per message Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:21:11 GMT Organization: posting from University of Karlsruhe, Germany X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <"irafs1.ira.673:14.07.98.09.21.59"@ira.uka.de> Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi! I am currently experimenting with the digest function (majrodomo 1.94.4). However, I am getting one digest per message. This is nicely defeating the digest's purpose :-) Here are the significant portions of my config file: > # digest_archive [absolute_dir] (undef) > # The directory where the digest archive is kept. This item does > # not currently work. Leave it blank. > digest_archive =3D > > # digest_issue [integer] (1) > # The issue number of the next issue > digest_issue =3D 8 > > # digest_maxdays [integer] (undef) > # automatically generate a new digest when the age of the oldest > # article in the queue exceeds this number of days. > digest_maxdays =3D 7 > > # digest_maxlines [integer] (undef) > # automatically generate a new digest when the size of the digest > # exceeds this number of lines. > digest_maxlines =3D 50 > > # digest_name [string] (test-list-digest) > # The subject line for the digest. This string has the volume and > # issue appended to it. > digest_name =3D test-list > > # digest_rm_footer [word] (undef) > # The value is the name of the list that applies the header and > # footers to the messages that are received by digest. This allows > # the list supplied headers and footers to be stripped before the > # messages are included in the digest. This keyword is currently > # non operative. > digest_rm_footer =3D > > # digest_rm_fronter [word] (undef) > # Works just like digest_rm_footer, except it removes the front > # material. Just like digest_rm_footer, it is also non-operative. > digest_rm_fronter =3D > > # digest_volume [integer] (1) > # The current volume number > digest_volume =3D 1 > > # digest_work_dir [absolute_dir] (undef) > # The directory used as scratch space for digest. Don't change > # this unless you know what you are doing > digest_work_dir =3D These settings are done in both my main list and the digest config since I don't know which set of settings is relevant. What am I doing wrong? Greetings Marc --=20 -------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! = ----- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im = Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | Fon: *49 721 966 32= 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fax: *49 721 966 31= 29 From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 03:30:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA14257; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 03:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id DAA14206 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 03:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Japan.Sun.COM ([129.158.31.2]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id DAA10464 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 03:03:31 -0700 Received: from kirin.Japan.Sun.COM by Japan.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4-sd.fkk200) id TAA10816; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:02:29 +0900 Received: by kirin.Japan.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA25614; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:00:36 +0900 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:00:36 +0900 From: Hiroyuki.Yamada@Japan.Sun.COM (Hiroyuki Yamada) Message-Id: <199807141000.TAA25614@kirin.Japan.Sun.COM> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: FAQ 2.12 - I get "Aliasing/Forwarding Loop Broken" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Folks, I'm using majordomo-1.94.4 and Solaris-2.5.1- x86. Subscribing was okay. But when posting, I got the same error written in FAQ-2.12 as follows. [FAQ-2.12] - I get "Aliasing/Forwarding Loop Broken" [My error message] ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 :include:/usr/local/mail/lists/test... Cannot open /usr/local/mail/lists/test: Group writable directory 554 test-going... aliasing/forwarding loop broken Here is a description in /etc/aliases. [...] test-going::include:/usr/local/mail/lists/test [...] There are some addresses of subscribers in /usr/local/mail/lists/test. This file has the read permission of course. Any suggestion is welcome. Thank you very much, hiro From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 04:01:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA17827; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 03:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA17820 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 03:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id GAA21906; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:48:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA02932; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:48:54 -0400 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:48:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeffrey Kaplan To: Majordomo Users Subject: Re: getting one digest per message In-Reply-To: <"irafs1.ira.673:14.07.98.09.21.59"@ira.uka.de> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Marc Haber wrote: ; I am currently experimenting with the digest function (majrodomo ; 1.94.4). However, I am getting one digest per message. This is nicely ; defeating the digest's purpose :-) ; ; > # digest_maxlines [integer] (undef) ; > # automatically generate a new digest when the size of the digest ; > # exceeds this number of lines. ; > digest_maxlines = 50 ^^ I think this is the problem. You're telling Majordomo to send a digest whenever it will exceed 50 lines. Try something larger, like 500. :) -- Jeffrey Kaplan <*> I'm set up for PGP. Are you? jkapllan@world.std.com <*> There is only one "l" in my name. There is no need to copy to me via email a newsgroup follow-up. The World does not necessarily agree with my opinions. "How could they do it. They say it's humane, merciful. Do you know what it's like to wake up one day and discover your a monster, a murderer?" (Bro. Edward, B5 "Passing Through Gethsemane") From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 05:15:17 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA18732; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 05:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id FAA18679 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 05:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 27532 invoked by uid 3995); 14 Jul 1998 12:03:07 -0000 Message-ID: <19980714120307.27531.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <"Roger B.A. Klorese"'s message of "Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:06:40 -0700 (PDT)"> <3.0.5.32.19980713165855.007da6a0@krusty-motorsports.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Richard Welty writes: > >> i have several hundred AOL subscribers on one of my lists. AOL MX hosts >> are notorious for being overloaded and hard to deliver to. if i use an >> intelligently conceived MTA, then when i do manage to get a connection to >> AOL, i stand a good chance of getting the bulk of my AOL queue cleared >> out in one session. > >This is where sendmail (+bulk_mailer) and exim connection caching is a >really big win. Once you have a connection, these MTAs will keep that one >connection open for several minutes. This is where connection caching is a really big win for the sender, who gets to stuff his full backlog at an overloaded receiver. How rude and opportunistic. I consider this a denial-of-service attack. Unloading your whole backlog through a single connection is hardly being "conservative in what you send". Imagine what happens after AOL is down for a while. When it comes back up, each remote sendmail hogs a connection and dumps its load at the now *very* overloaded AOL. Not nice. qmail, on the other hand, independently retries each message, and sends only one message per connection, which is *much* kinder to an overloaded system. >So, knowing that, I believe you have the perfect example of why qmail can >be a bad choice of MTA. *Any* MTA can be a bad choice. You have to match your resources and requirements with the available set of MTA's. Anyone who says "FooMail is the best MTA in all situations" is an idiot, for all values of FooMail. This is *very* elementary system analysis. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 05:45:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA19471; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 05:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id FAA19464 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 05:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28113 invoked by uid 3995); 14 Jul 1998 12:42:32 -0000 Message-ID: <19980714124232.28112.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980713130013.6981.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <199807131542.KAA00965@Venus.mcs.net> <19980713194445.13378.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >There is always latency in such measurement. By the time the SMTP server >realizes that it has hit the threshold, it may have already been vastly >exceeded. That's a problem with load averages, but not with process or connection count limits. >Which is why nice guys are conservative in what they send. They don't know >how much traffic my site can handle; therefore nice guys try to be >conservative in what they send so as to avoid overloading me. OK, so I'm not a nice guy, in your book. I can live with that. In my book, you're refusing to accept responsibility for properly configuring your MTA and you're exaggerating the scope of the issue. >And yet you maintain that qmail does not need to be nice, that qmail does >not need to be conservative in what it sends, that qmail's overloading my >site is somehow my fault. qmail *is* nice, and conservative in what it sends. But it's a high-performance MTA, and being conservative in *how much* it tries to send is not compatible with high performance. qmail raises the bar in MTA performance. Other MTA's will have to cope with that. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 06:30:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA20333; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA20321 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA12068 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:18:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807141318.JAA12068@cis.ohio-state.edu> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-reply-to: Your message of "13 Jul 1998 16:54:27 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:18:07 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Which is why nice guys are conservative in what they send. With the result not being able to keep up with mail flow? Unacceptable. See my previous article in this thread. --Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 06:43:54 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA20358; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA20351 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA12207 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807141322.JAA12207@cis.ohio-state.edu> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: FAQ 2.12 - I get "Aliasing/Forwarding Loop Broken" In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:00:36 +0900." <199807141000.TAA25614@kirin.Japan.Sun.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:21:34 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >550 :include:/usr/local/mail/lists/test... Cannot open > /usr/local/mail/lists/test: Group writable directory ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You _did_ read this error message? While you're at it, read sendmail's README. --Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 06:45:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA20508; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.wizvax.net (mailgate.wizvax.net [199.181.141.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA20480 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from foodchain (ts2p25.wizvax.net [204.97.162.90]) by mailgate.wizvax.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.Beta3) with SMTP id JAA22230; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:33:12 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980714092959.007bce50@krusty-motorsports.com> X-Sender: rweltynw@krusty-motorsports.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:29:59 -0400 To: Leslie Mikesell , de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) From: Richard Welty Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199807140506.AAA25355@Mercury.mcs.net> References: <19980713194445.13378.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:06 AM 7/14/98 -0500, Leslie Mikesell wrote: >According to Dave Sill: >> I'm not familiar with the details of slow-start and retry >> timers. Sounds like "Death of the Net predicted. Details at eleven." >The gist of it is that the right thing to do in the face of IP >congestion (the usual problem) is to back off the retries so eventually >something will make it through the overloaded routers. However, any single >endpoint can measure better recovery time at everyone elses' expense by >speeding up the retries instead. i can't find the quote, so i'm not sure if i should attribute it to Floyd or to Jacobson, but the gist of it is "networks are easily driven into congestion, and hard to recover from it". i'm somewhat of a routing weenie, and i find Sill's casual dismissal of critical issues in congestion control appalling. i'd been uncertain how to explain why qmail delivery methods bugged me, but the TCP congestion analogy is of staggering relevance. the problem is that qmail assumes that bandwidth is cheap. on a bad day in MAE-East, a day when nobody's favorite porn site is loading particularly fast because of 20% packet loss in the overloaded tree of gigaswitches, bandwidth is most assuredly Not Cheap, or really, even available. in such an environment, intentionally generating extra packets because of a mail delivery theory is pretty #@$#!## irresponsible. so this discussion has effectively moved me from finding qmail conceptually annoying to now feeling pretty pissed off about it and the BS theory behind it -- because i now suddenly realize qmail's implications for the stuff i do for a living. i suggest that mr. sill read something that covers congestion well; the recent book by Stallings, _High-Speed Networks: TCP/IP and ATM Design Principles_, is a useful text that does a good job of discussing all the crap that has to be done in packet forwarding engines and tcp stacks to keep the internet limping along. cheers, richard -- Richard Welty NeWorks Networking, Inc. 518-244-9675 rwelty@neworks.net http://www.neworks.net/ From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 06:58:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA20408; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id GAA20401 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28817 invoked by uid 3995); 14 Jul 1998 13:25:59 -0000 Message-ID: <19980714132559.28816.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <199807140506.AAA25355@Mercury.mcs.net> References: <19980713194445.13378.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <199807140506.AAA25355@Mercury.mcs.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >According to Dave Sill: >> >> It'll be hard for us to come to terms until you stop using loaded >> terms like "abuse" and "waste". I know you're upset, but that doesn't >> help. > >Look at it from the perspective of a business paying for the bandwidth >the business needs and trying to accomodate users' mailing list >subscriptions as a low priority item and I don't see how else you >can describe it. How about "unfortunate" or "suboptimal"? But, again, the problem with differentiating bulk e-mail from first class e-mail is inherent in the SMTP protocol, which makes no distinction. >Yes, but even without reading that it was clear that DJB never had to >make a business justification for the cost of bandwidth, and almost >certainly never delt with gatewaying between the Internet and a >private more expensive internal network connecting remote offices. qmail is intended for "typical Internet-connected UNIX hosts". It doesn't try to be all things to all people. DJB *has* written a separate package called serialmail, for use with qmail over serial lines, though. >Having to forward multiple copies over these slower links is much >more of an issue than accepting them off the internet (which is >bad enough). I'm sorry, but isn't that your problem, not the sender's? In this case you'd *like* the sender to do X, but there's no mechanism for either telling the sender that, or requiring it to do X. This is another protocol limitation. Just because "everybody always used to do X" doesn't mean Y is illegal or immoral--it's just different: better for some, worse for others. >The gist of it is that the right thing to do in the face of IP >congestion (the usual problem) is to back off the retries so eventually >something will make it through the overloaded routers. However, any single >endpoint can measure better recovery time at everyone elses' expense by >speeding up the retries instead. qmail does back off on retries, and doesn't pound on nonresponding systems. >And for an equal number of times, the last thing I want to do is to >drop the connections that are paying for the line because some >single site is unwilling to send things in a way that can be >handled efficiently. I said "don't accept", not "drop" or "refuse". >The only reasonable response is going to be to hack sendmail so it >won't accept more than a certain number of connections from any >single site within a certain time frame. It certainly is not reasonable >to refuse other connections at random. You're welcome to hamstring your own MTA, if that's what you want to do. The beauty of letting the recipient control its incoming traffic is that this doesn't slow down everyone else. And although I never suggested refusing connections at random, I'm not sure it's always unreasonable--but that's neither here nor there. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 07:15:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA22246; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA22229 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA19477 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:16:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Dave Barr cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <199807141318.JAA12068@cis.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Dave Barr wrote: > With the result not being able to keep up with mail flow? > > Unacceptable. Why -- do you think every message that pops into someone's brain has a right to be sent, no matter what load it places on the infrastructure? -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 07:30:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA22522; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA22470 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA19525 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:18:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Marc Haber cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: getting one digest per message In-Reply-To: <"irafs1.ira.673:14.07.98.09.21.59"@ira.uka.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Marc Haber wrote: > > # digest_maxlines [integer] (undef) > > # automatically generate a new digest when the size of the digest > > # exceeds this number of lines. > > digest_maxlines = 50 > > What am I doing wrong? Presumably, your message including headers may exceed 50 lines... -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 07:33:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA22208; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA22201 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA19449 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:15:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Dave Sill cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <19980714120307.27531.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: > qmail, on the other hand, independently retries each message, and > sends only one message per connection, which is *much* kinder to an > overloaded system. Hardly. Delivering 1000 messages in qmail requires 1000 separate full SMTP connect/xmit/disconnect chats. Sendmail only requires one heavyweight setup/teardown. It's much kinder to a system. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 07:47:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA22523; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA22499 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA19560 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:19:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Hiroyuki Yamada cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: FAQ 2.12 - I get "Aliasing/Forwarding Loop Broken" In-Reply-To: <199807141000.TAA25614@kirin.Japan.Sun.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Hiroyuki Yamada wrote: > 550 :include:/usr/local/mail/lists/test... Cannot open /usr/local/mail/lists/test: Group writable directory Isn't this pretty clear? Sendmail 8.9 does not allow you to put lists in group-writeable directories, unles you set the correct DontBlameSendmail option. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 08:00:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA23031; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA23001 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15195 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:35:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807141435.KAA15195@cis.ohio-state.edu> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:16:03 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:34:32 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Why -- do you think every message that pops into someone's brain has a >right to be sent, no matter what load it places on the infrastructure? I don't even know why I'm responding to such a silly statement. Do you think mail is so unimportant that we don't need to deliver it reliably and quickly? Frankly you don't belong in this discussion if that's true. Remember when INN came out? Remember all those C-News sites which were forced to adapt or upgrade? INN represented a fundamental change in the way news servers behaved internally. Remember when streaming came out? Again, servers were forced to adapt or upgrade to the new paradigm. Mail isn't used to this. There haven't been many important changes like this. Now that has changed. --Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 08:03:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA22155; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA22148 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA26606 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:11:50 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Effeciency and effectiveness [Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.)] References: X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 14 Jul 1998 10:11:50 -0400 In-Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg's message of "Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:27:43 +0100 (BST)" Message-ID: Lines: 27 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Jeffrey Goldberg writes: > Something is effective if it does the job. Something is efficient if > it does what it does consuming fewer resources. Exactly. Five Neons moving 40 people around will consume less fuel than the bus. The bus is still more effective at moving large numbers of people around, though. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNatnJZ6VRH7BJMxHAQEL2wQAk80taGro6B67lqjr7j19L6ztKLNJk+k+ gBzxIosHqftSNVuI58mbinxLgRUlD2GiRpmH+nnTHGV+wp0c8jPkGwvTXRmmvB5S NzUQi5dh7DG5pjUTbeBDarY1y1bfygqWpKbp50OZ/qR4WvgXfdrpHopKZmrwUs5h 2qkyAFD6cSI= =Z1Qj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Caution: Happy Fun Ball may Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / suddenly accelerate to dangerous Prescient Technologies, Inc. / speeds. I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 08:14:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA22521; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id HAA22484 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 29685 invoked by uid 3995); 14 Jul 1998 14:20:13 -0000 Message-ID: <19980714142013.29684.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980714120307.27531.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Hardly. Delivering 1000 messages in qmail requires 1000 separate full >SMTP connect/xmit/disconnect chats. Sendmail only requires one >heavyweight setup/teardown. It's much kinder to a system. I think it's kinder to spread the load out than to concentrate it at the point where the system is most loaded. The total effort required by the recipient is higher with qmail, but qmail is kind enough to spread it out so much of comes when the recipient is less loaded. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 08:16:40 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA23065; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA23040 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA20009 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:36:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Dave Barr cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, I wrote: > On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Dave Barr wrote: > > With the result not being able to keep up with mail flow? > > > > Unacceptable. > > Why -- do you think every message that pops into someone's brain has a > right to be sent, no matter what load it places on the infrastructure? More important: AOL set an odd expectation out there: that you could get a mail message to your friends in seconds, no matter how many friends. (Of course, they're all on AOL too.) So we jump through hoops to satisfy people for whom there's no difference between chat and mail. News flash: mail is a store-and-forward protocol, with latency that is multiple orders of magnitude higher. There are so very few legitimate cases of the intersection of (needs to be delivered by email) and (needs to reach more than a few thousand people) and (needs to use open SMTP transmission) and (is welcomed by the recipients) that optimizing a toolset for these, instead of living with real-world expectations, is nutso. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 08:17:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA22041; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id HAA22031 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 29369 invoked by uid 3995); 14 Jul 1998 14:00:37 -0000 Message-ID: <19980714140037.29368.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980713194445.13378.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >This stuff was designed at a time when (a) all remote sites WERE nice >guys, and (b) everyone was clever enough to know what their resources are. Yes, point (a) is true, but they were also smart enough to realize that (1) that wouldn't always be the case and that even nice guys could run amuck, and (2) there had to be a way for a system to control incoming connections. As for (b), it's impossible for each site on the Internet to know every other site's resources. That's why the remote sites *have* to be responsible for controlling their own resource usage. The fact is, the lower layers in the stack were designed for just such a thing as queueing connections until the system was ready to handle them. >If I only have the CPU and memory resources to support ten simultaneous >listeners, you can deliver mail to me much more efficiently by sending all >of it to one listener. This has nothing to do with throttling bandwidth. Efficiency is not the only criterion for determining what to do. Performance, reliability, and capability are others. qmail is willing to trade network bandwidth (efficiency) for delivery rate (performance), simplicity of design (reliability), and VERP (capability). -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 08:18:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA23416; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA23396 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27827 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:47:59 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <"Roger B.A. Klorese"'s message of "Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:06:40 -0700 (PDT)"> <3.0.5.32.19980713165855.007da6a0@krusty-motorsports.com> <19980714120307.27531.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 14 Jul 1998 10:47:59 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Tue, 14 Jul 98 08:03:07 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 38 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > This is where connection caching is a really big win for the sender, > who gets to stuff his full backlog at an overloaded receiver. How rude > and opportunistic. I have 100 messages that need to be sent to aol.com. I could make 100 connections, one per message; this is what qmail does. The aol.com MX has to fork off 100 instances of its MTA to accomplish delivery. Or I could make one connection for all 100 messages; this is what sendmail does. The aol.com MX has to fork but 1 instance of its MTA to accomplish delivery. I send messages serially to aol.com only as fast as it can receive them. Now, from where I sit, qmail is the one being rude and opportunistic, not sendmail. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNatvnp6VRH7BJMxHAQHeagP/RkVl4UvtNS+Gb7EBuhFyvbjVrRG/RppD uxqoAqXoMIdNtjLUdNFJl5qefrfkWUzziRyZIY0zrqUS791MhSJe+H/XbkXMqtGC f+3330oalWb+JcXtsqQIH5nEs8+6p/V8SWv2OIINSuyiWCbMuXnDP+wEsRhdFSfT Y55gfV54754= =vIXA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / core, which, if exposed due to Prescient Technologies, Inc. / rupture, should not be touched, I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / inhaled, or looked at. From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 08:18:31 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA23557; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA23531 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA28007 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:52:40 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <19980713130013.6981.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <199807131542.KAA00965@Venus.mcs.net> <19980713194445.13378.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980714124232.28112.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 14 Jul 1998 10:52:41 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Tue, 14 Jul 98 08:42:32 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 51 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > OK, so I'm not a nice guy, in your book. I did not say that you are not a nice guy; I said that qmail is not a nice guy. > I can live with that. In my book, you're refusing to accept > responsibility for properly configuring your MTA and you're exaggerating > the scope of the issue. Even when I do properly configure my MTA, qmail can throttle it due to aforementioned latencey. [...] > qmail *is* nice, and conservative in what it sends. But it's a > high-performance MTA, The way qmail implements high performance is diametrically opposed to being conservative. > and being conservative in *how much* it tries to send is not compatible > with high performance. Exactly. > qmail raises the bar in MTA performance. Other MTA's will have to cope > with that. qmail is wrong, and it is my fault because it is wrong. That is what you are saying. Well, I do not buy it, and I am not alone. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNatwuJ6VRH7BJMxHAQG4WwQAxklkXuux3iD1e7qJHxG5tlHZliWzFY9p AIUfQihwB1zH2jWpWs/7KgRR1jrHS4XnrmONppnVabdXREQJrmiYPTTQ287iyi9T PC2KGJRtytWRggld/s2RVIPzmwcAODfvbN7YCNIciJ275WnuZcGa+Zh8btkG7r4E Kxcm5dMXmBk= =hkr8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / types of skin. Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 08:19:06 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA22228; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id HAA22220 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 29619 invoked by uid 3995); 14 Jul 1998 14:16:06 -0000 Message-ID: <19980714141606.29618.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980714092959.007bce50@krusty-motorsports.com> References: <19980713194445.13378.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <199807140506.AAA25355@Mercury.mcs.net> <3.0.5.32.19980714092959.007bce50@krusty-motorsports.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >i can't find the quote, so i'm not sure if i should attribute it to Floyd >or to Jacobson, but the gist of it is "networks are easily driven into >congestion, and hard to recover from it". SMTP is a small fraction of Internet traffic, dwarfed by http and ftp. Only a part of the SMTP traffic is multiple recipient mail. Only a fraction of multirecipient mail goes to multiple recipients on an MX. Only a fraction of that is delivered by qmail. Only fraction of that will result in simultaneous connections to an MX. I think it's a little alarmist to claim this is a serious concern. >i'm somewhat of a routing weenie, and i find Sill's casual dismissal of >critical issues in congestion control appalling. i'd been uncertain how to >explain why qmail delivery methods bugged me, but the TCP congestion >analogy is of staggering relevance. "Death of the Net predicted. Film at eleven." >the problem is that qmail assumes that bandwidth is cheap. on a bad day in >MAE-East, a day when nobody's favorite porn site is loading particularly >fast because of 20% packet loss in the overloaded tree of gigaswitches, >bandwidth is most assuredly Not Cheap, or really, even available. in such >an environment, intentionally generating extra packets because of a mail >delivery theory is pretty #@$#!## irresponsible. (a) it's not "theory" that causes qmail to do what it does, it's reality. (b) what percentage of MAE-East's traffic is multirecipient->single MX SMTP? Divide that by http traffic. Compare to zero. >so this discussion has effectively moved me from finding qmail conceptually >annoying to now feeling pretty pissed off about it and the BS theory behind >it -- because i now suddenly realize qmail's implications for the stuff i >do for a living. You're getting worked up over a nonissue. >i suggest that mr. sill read something that covers congestion well If I had any evidence that qmail was even a measurable blip on the congestion graph, I might. Until then, I'll concentrate on real problems. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 08:31:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA24713; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA24688 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (les@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id KAA11045; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:24:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from les@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id KAA27101; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:24:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Leslie Mikesell Message-Id: <199807141524.KAA27101@Mars.mcs.net> Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) To: rogerk@QueerNet.ORG (Roger B.A. Klorese) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:24:48 -0500 (CDT) Cc: de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Roger B.A. Klorese" at Jul 14, 98 07:15:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Roger B.A. Klorese: > > On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: > > qmail, on the other hand, independently retries each message, and > > sends only one message per connection, which is *much* kinder to an > > overloaded system. > > Hardly. Delivering 1000 messages in qmail requires 1000 separate full > SMTP connect/xmit/disconnect chats. Sendmail only requires one > heavyweight setup/teardown. It's much kinder to a system. And more importantly, it proceeds at exactly the speed that the receiver can process each address instead of trying to do 1000 at the same time with a really ugly failure/backoff mechanism. Les Mikesell les@mcs.com From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 08:45:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA25082; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eclectic.kluge.net (eclectic.kluge.net [206.114.160.248]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA25072 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eclectic.kluge.net (felicity@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eclectic.kluge.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA00114 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:40:38 -0400 Message-Id: <199807141540.LAA00114@eclectic.kluge.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: Message from Dave Barr of "Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:34:32 EDT." <199807141435.KAA15195@cis.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:40:38 -0400 From: Theo Van Dinter Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk | Do you think mail is so unimportant that we don't need to deliver | it reliably and quickly? Frankly you don't belong in this discussion | if that's true. I think the concept was: Mail is important, but very few (if any) mailing lists are *time critical*? Most people consider mailing list traffic as important, but low priority. If it takes an extra hour to process the whole list, so be it. -- Randomly Generated Tagline: A Buddist nudist practices yoga bare! From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 09:01:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA25400; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA25385 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 14493 invoked by uid 500); 14 Jul 1998 15:51:09 -0000 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <19980713194445.13378.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <3.0.5.32.19980714092959.007bce50@krusty-motorsports.com> From: Russ Allbery In-Reply-To: Richard Welty's message of "Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:29:59 -0400" Date: 14 Jul 1998 08:51:09 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 21 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Richard Welty writes: > the problem is that qmail assumes that bandwidth is cheap. on a bad day > in MAE-East, a day when nobody's favorite porn site is loading > particularly fast because of 20% packet loss in the overloaded tree of > gigaswitches, bandwidth is most assuredly Not Cheap, or really, even > available. in such an environment, intentionally generating extra > packets because of a mail delivery theory is pretty #@$#!## > irresponsible. Do you believe e-mail traffic to be of sufficient quantity to be even noticeable at a high-traffic interchange point like MAE-East under high load conditions? This strikes me as micro-optimization. Next to web and news, let alone something like streaming audio or video, e-mail is barely a blip until you get down to the individual network level, at which point I agree that qmail may not be the best choice for all circumstances. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 09:15:54 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA26690; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparkie.osl.state.or.us (sparkie.osl.state.or.us [159.121.122.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id JAA26683 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by sparkie.osl.state.or.us (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA14793; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:15:26 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:15:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Adams To: Hiroyuki Yamada cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: FAQ 2.12 - I get "Aliasing/Forwarding Loop Broken" In-Reply-To: <199807141000.TAA25614@kirin.Japan.Sun.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Looks to me like you have not specifed a person (address) for list approval messages or as the list owner. Some sample entries in an alias file is found below. If I delete them, I get the "Aliasing/Forwarding Loop Broken". There needs to be someone designated to receive messages when someone subscribes. This does not have to be a moderated list. beta-approval: freesem@fcmail.state.or.us beta-owner: freesem@fcmail.state.or.us owner-beta-owner: freesem@fcmail.state.or.us Christopher Adams Automated Systems Oregon State Library chris@sparkie.osl.state.or.us On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Hiroyuki Yamada wrote: > Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:00:36 +0900 > From: Hiroyuki Yamada > To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM > Subject: FAQ 2.12 - I get "Aliasing/Forwarding Loop Broken" > > Hi Folks, > > I'm using majordomo-1.94.4 and Solaris-2.5.1- x86. > > Subscribing was okay. But when posting, I got the same > error written in FAQ-2.12 as follows. > > > [FAQ-2.12] > > - I get "Aliasing/Forwarding Loop Broken" > > > [My error message] > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > 550 :include:/usr/local/mail/lists/test... Cannot open /usr/local/mail/lists/test: Group writable directory > 554 test-going... aliasing/forwarding loop broken > > > > Here is a description in /etc/aliases. > > [...] > test-going::include:/usr/local/mail/lists/test > [...] > > > There are some addresses of subscribers in > /usr/local/mail/lists/test. This file has the read > permission of course. > > Any suggestion is welcome. > > Thank you very much, > hiro > From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 09:33:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA27102; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blkbox.com (blkbox.com [206.109.97.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA27091 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (smithd@localhost) by blkbox.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08286 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:26:43 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:26:43 -0500 (CDT) From: David Smith To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Ok, that's enough (was Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <19980714140037.29368.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think some good points have come up, but the dicussion has degenerated into a "my way is better than you way" religion war. Lets call a halt to it. From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 09:41:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA24396; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA24379 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (les@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id KAA10642; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:19:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from les@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id KAA26323; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:19:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Leslie Mikesell Message-Id: <199807141519.KAA26323@Mars.mcs.net> Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) To: de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:19:15 -0500 (CDT) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <19980714132559.28816.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> from "Dave Sill" at Jul 14, 98 09:25:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Dave Sill: > > >Look at it from the perspective of a business paying for the bandwidth > >the business needs and trying to accomodate users' mailing list > >subscriptions as a low priority item and I don't see how else you > >can describe it. > > How about "unfortunate" or "suboptimal"? But, again, the problem with > differentiating bulk e-mail from first class e-mail is inherent in the > SMTP protocol, which makes no distinction. Everyone thinks that their own message is the most important thing on the wire so I don't think there is much hope for counting on the originator to set meaningful priorities anyway. > >Yes, but even without reading that it was clear that DJB never had to > >make a business justification for the cost of bandwidth, and almost > >certainly never delt with gatewaying between the Internet and a > >private more expensive internal network connecting remote offices. > > qmail is intended for "typical Internet-connected UNIX hosts". It > doesn't try to be all things to all people. DJB *has* written a > separate package called serialmail, for use with qmail over serial > lines, though. But email is a store-and-forward technology. Many/most businesses have internet gateways that connect to the rest of the world, then distribute to remote internal locations over private connections that are often dial-up or frame relay with an associated usage charge. Mailers should always anticipate that the 'next' hop is only a relay point. > >Having to forward multiple copies over these slower links is much > >more of an issue than accepting them off the internet (which is > >bad enough). > > I'm sorry, but isn't that your problem, not the sender's? Yes, but in the case of receiving one copy of a message with 50 recipient addresses it is a reasonable problem. In the case of 50 separate copies of the same message it isn't. There is no way to re-consolidate the group once it is split, especially without imposing a delay in forwarding. Also, some sensible mail systems even store a single copy of a group message for everyone and this mechanism is also defeated by separate deliveries. > In this case > you'd *like* the sender to do X, but there's no mechanism for either > telling the sender that, or requiring it to do X. This is another > protocol limitation. Just because "everybody always used to do X" > doesn't mean Y is illegal or immoral--it's just different: better for > some, worse for others. The reason 'everybody always used to do X' is that it was and is the right thing to do. You are trying to make it sound like it was an accident that the other mailers only send one copy. It has always been more work to do it right, but people involved in networking used to understand that any single machine could easily overwhelm the others and made an effort to avoid it. It is unfortunate that some people don't care any more. > >The gist of it is that the right thing to do in the face of IP > >congestion (the usual problem) is to back off the retries so eventually > >something will make it through the overloaded routers. However, any single > >endpoint can measure better recovery time at everyone elses' expense by > >speeding up the retries instead. > > qmail does back off on retries, and doesn't pound on nonresponding > systems. But that means you have to have refused a connection and at that point you are refusing everyone else too. > >And for an equal number of times, the last thing I want to do is to > >drop the connections that are paying for the line because some > >single site is unwilling to send things in a way that can be > >handled efficiently. > > I said "don't accept", not "drop" or "refuse". What? What's the difference between "don't accept" and "refuse". > >The only reasonable response is going to be to hack sendmail so it > >won't accept more than a certain number of connections from any > >single site within a certain time frame. It certainly is not reasonable > >to refuse other connections at random. > > You're welcome to hamstring your own MTA, if that's what you want to > do. The beauty of letting the recipient control its incoming traffic > is that this doesn't slow down everyone else. And although I never > suggested refusing connections at random, I'm not sure it's always > unreasonable--but that's neither here nor there. If you just stop accepting connections on port 25 the fact is that you are refusing connections at random. I find that hard to reconcile with the justification for paying for the services in the first place. Les Mikesell les@mcs.com From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 09:45:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA27464; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA27455 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA20526 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:38:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807141638.MAA20526@cis.ohio-state.edu> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:00:37 EST." <19980714140037.29368.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:37:46 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >As for (b), it's impossible for each site on the Internet to know >every other site's resources. That's why the remote sites *have* to be >responsible for controlling their own resource usage. How true. How many times have we heard horror stories about hoxes, spam, etc causing floods of postmaster@ and abuse@ mail to a site causing their mail system to repeatedly crash and burn under the load? How many sendmail sites are merely time bombs waiting to go off? Obviously you can't have perfect solutions, but systems should be demand tolerant enough to handle overloaded conditions gracefully. I'm not saying qmail is perfect -- far from it. However we're entering a new age, and that requires thinking about things that weren't big issues before. --Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 10:00:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA27913; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA27864 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA22880 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:50:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Reply-To: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Dave Sill cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <19980714141606.29618.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: > (b) what percentage of MAE-East's traffic is multirecipient->single MX > SMTP? Divide that by http traffic. Compare to zero. What percentage of corporate or organizational mail-hubs' traffic is multirecipient->single MX SMTP? Divide that by HTTP traffic. Compare to (division by zero). -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 10:14:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA27753; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA27745 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA22800 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:47:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Dave Sill cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <19980714140037.29368.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: > Efficiency is not the only criterion for determining what to do. > Performance, reliability, and capability are others. qmail is willing > to trade network bandwidth (efficiency) for delivery rate > (performance), simplicity of design (reliability), and VERP > (capability). Those are all flavors of efficiency. And qmail is not "willing" to do anything. It's software. Senders who wish to make decisions about receiver resources are "willing" to use qmail to do so. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 10:29:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA29353; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA29342 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA32760 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:19:50 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <199807141638.MAA20526@cis.ohio-state.edu> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 14 Jul 1998 13:19:50 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Barr's message of "Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:37:46 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 31 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Barr writes: [...] > I'm not saying qmail is perfect -- far from it. However we're entering > a new age, and that requires thinking about things that weren't big > issues before. Translation: because qmail's way of doing things is superior to every other MTA, it is the benchmark against which all other considerations must be made. Those that cannot handle qmail's way of doing things must be abandoned in this New Age. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNauTNZ6VRH7BJMxHAQFZ3wQAofIEEf+Zk3KFcKO/lU3YtXiiBX6wzzmJ +dQ4Ps49GLJwhgv7yuc0k1Mx0p7eTaMvZVDEe0Gw48Z0wDY/KpuQ8R6fQ51+NMxW zYMiiZxS+FjheCAby+vrDWGoiJnnNaalUhI5VQu+f7H4Acyk7IEWoLfB9Avd9Uzp wVGpM4Q8RbU= =e7i+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / types of skin. Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 10:45:31 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA00766; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id KAA00738 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2871 invoked by uid 3995); 14 Jul 1998 17:45:15 -0000 Message-ID: <19980714174515.2870.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <199807141540.LAA00114@eclectic.kluge.net> References: <199807141435.KAA15195@cis.ohio-state.edu> <199807141540.LAA00114@eclectic.kluge.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Mail is important, but very few (if any) mailing lists are *time critical*? >Most people consider mailing list traffic as important, but low priority. If >it takes an extra hour to process the whole list, so be it. I run two lists for system administrators who are often under substantial pressure to get systems running again. There's a huge difference to them between getting an answer in 10 or 15 minutes and getting it in 2 or 3 hours. That's exactly the difference switching from sendmail to qmail made. There's definitely a need for something faster than sendmail mailing lists but slower than realtime chat. Even non-time critical lists benefit by improved response time. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 10:53:27 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA27395; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA27386 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA20347 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807141633.MAA20347@cis.ohio-state.edu> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:40:38 EDT." <199807141540.LAA00114@eclectic.kluge.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:33:22 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I think the concept was: > >Mail is important, but very few (if any) mailing lists are *time critical*? >Most people consider mailing list traffic as important, but low priority. If >it takes an extra hour to process the whole list, so be it. Yes, but that's only an issue for smaller sites. The fact that qmail processes a given mail to a given list so much faster is only a side benefit. qmail works just as well for single mail messages to one reciepient. Why should mail to a mailing list, which you say is okay to be delayed an extra hour or so, back up normal mail which is time critical? This isn't supposed to be a problem with sendmail, but it is. The fact is that the public expects personal mail to be delivered in minutes, not hours. They should! --Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 11:00:28 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA01437; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA01424 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA24916 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:57:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Dave Sill cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <19980714174515.2870.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: > There's definitely a need for something faster than sendmail mailing > lists but slower than realtime chat. Why? What's wrong with realtime chat for realtime problems? If a system's down, 15 minutes is no more acceptable than 2 or 3 hours. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 11:05:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA27601; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA27566 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA31532 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:41:47 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <19980714120307.27531.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980714142013.29684.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 14 Jul 1998 12:41:47 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Tue, 14 Jul 98 10:20:13 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 34 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > I think it's kinder to spread the load out than to concentrate it at > the point where the system is most loaded. Say you have 20 messages you need to deliver to AOL. sendmail and exim create one SMTP connection and deliver the 20 messages sequentially; the AOL MX needs one instance of its MTA to handle this traffic. qmail creates 20 simultaneous SMTP connections and delivers all 20 messages simultaneously; the AOL MX needs 20 instances of its MTA to handle this traffic. In plain English, qmail generates 20 times the instantaneous load on the remote machine as either sendmail or exim. In plain English, qmail deliberately hammers a remote system at the point it is most loaded. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNauKR56VRH7BJMxHAQFi6AP/RxJOW31sUyF3+UmKaHysEM8NH0Z9ZP2h 9FlRBpBzOrZ0Ds8jVNQr0KUFVD9xh/UN/2DbnuoL9NCPNcelI3086JlL50Mx0dzV zNthhaIzwvNKS5MifKtul/w4qzJE67HaacbMsIs5eS1Zb5hGendCEdBoKrZrZhr3 jcDjlz70UlE= =T4wA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Do not use Happy Fun Ball on Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / concrete. Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 11:15:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA01773; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA01764 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA25057 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:05:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Dave Barr cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <199807141633.MAA20347@cis.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Dave Barr wrote: > Why should mail to a mailing list, which you say is okay to be delayed > an extra hour or so, back up normal mail which is time critical? > This isn't supposed to be a problem with sendmail, but it is. Where? Why? How? It was a problem with smail and connection-locking... but why with sendmail? > The fact is that the public expects personal mail to be delivered in minutes, > not hours. They should! Why? Just because a plane can get coast-to-coast faster doesn't mean I expect six snail-mail deliveries a day for the same price. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 11:31:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA02442; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eclectic.kluge.net (eclectic.kluge.net [206.114.160.248]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA02398 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eclectic.kluge.net (felicity@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eclectic.kluge.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA00891 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:18:29 -0400 Message-Id: <199807141818.OAA00891@eclectic.kluge.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: Message from Dave Barr of "Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:33:22 EDT." <199807141633.MAA20347@cis.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:18:29 -0400 From: Theo Van Dinter Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk | This isn't supposed to be a problem with sendmail, but it is. | | The fact is that the public expects personal mail to be delivered in minutes, | not hours. They should! and that's exactly what happens with sendmail -- personal mail is delivered quickly, mailing list mail is delivered slower due to way sendmail handles the queue. -- Randomly Generated Tagline: Barium: N. 1. what you do with dead chemists. From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 11:46:46 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA03668; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.96.87]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA03640 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 14:37:34 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) Organization: SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9807141437.aa18231@fsm-1.fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In plain english, this thread is going nowhere. If y'all could take it to private email, I, for one, would greatly appreciate it. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 12:01:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA04837; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from karma.isi.com ([192.73.222.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA04817 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isi.com (argus.isi.com [192.103.55.143]) by karma.isi.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA16259 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35ABAABF.4A391B83@isi.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:00:15 -0700 From: "Troy S. Choi" Reply-To: tchoi@isi.com Organization: Intergrated Systems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: MJU Subject: Haunting again: Text body being recognized as command? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, all. Sorry for bringing up same problem twice but what I thought fixed wasn't really fixed. I did had "administrivia" set to "yes" and fixed it to "no". Also checked the "taboo_body" and there is none but still getting this "Admin request of type..." message. When I thought it was fixed, I was looking at wrong account to check for the Bounce message. Duh... I am attaching original posting and the .config file for anyone who is interested in helping me out. Many thanks in advance, Here is my original post; >Once in a while some of the mail sent to MJ list is being bounced with >messages like following. > >To: owner-some-list@isi.com >Subject: BOUNCE some-list@isi.com: Admin request of type /\bcancel\b/i at line 8 > >I looked at the line and all it says is; > >dialog box. I put cancel, and finally, i have the project editor > : > >The mail was addressed to some-list correctly not to majordomo@isi.com and >I can not figure out why is this happening. :( >Could someone help me on this? And, .config w/o comments nor white lines; admin_passwd = ******** administrivia = no advertise << END END announcements = yes approve_passwd = ******** archive_dir = comments << END END date_info = yes date_intro = yes debug = no description = list ... digest_archive = digest_issue = 1 digest_maxdays = digest_maxlines = digest_name = debug digest_rm_footer = digest_rm_fronter = digest_volume = 1 digest_work_dir = get_access = list index_access = list info_access = list intro_access = list maxlength = 1000000 message_footer << END End of message by $SENDER of $LIST -------------------- END message_fronter << END END message_headers << END END moderate = no moderator = mungedomain = no noadvertise << END /./ END precedence = bulk purge_received = no reply_to = $SENDER resend_host = restrict_post = sender = owner-debug strip = yes subject_prefix = subscribe_policy = closed taboo_body << END END taboo_headers << END END unsubscribe_policy = open welcome = yes which_access = list who_access = list -- Best regards, --- Troy S. Choi From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 12:15:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA05161; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA05152 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from solva.ifi.uio.no (1368@solva.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.20]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with SMTP id VAA05019; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:06:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from thomasg@localhost) by solva.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:06:38 +0200 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:06:37 +0200 From: Thomas Gramstad Reply-To: thomasg@ifi.uio.no To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) Message-ID: Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've learned a lot from the discussion of MTAs. I don't mind people getting passionate or emotional, that only makes the lines of disagreement clearer to me (although I hope it will not end in a flame war). I think the guy who referred to the discussion as bickering totally missed the mark. Somewhere down the line I'm going to install linux at home, and this discussion has been very helpful for me. Thomas Gramstad thomasg@ifi.uio.no From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 12:17:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA01893; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA01861 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3220 invoked by uid 3995); 14 Jul 1998 18:07:03 -0000 Message-ID: <19980714180703.3219.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: Rich Pieri Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <"Roger B.A. Klorese"'s message of "Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:06:40 -0700 (PDT)"> <3.0.5.32.19980713165855.007da6a0@krusty-motorsports.com> <19980714120307.27531.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Dave Sill writes: > >> This is where connection caching is a really big win for the sender, >> who gets to stuff his full backlog at an overloaded receiver. How rude >> and opportunistic. > >I have 100 messages that need to be sent to aol.com. The scenario we were discussing was: aol "goes down" for some time, when it comes back up, everyone's got a backlog of messages for aol, plus there's the regular background rate of new messages to aol. When they bring the mail service back up, thousands of sendmail/exim/ whatever-connection-caching-MTA-you-can-think-of is going to latch onto the first successful connection they can make and download their *entire* backlog. In contrast, qmail will retry each message on its own quadratic backoff schedule, and will only send one message per connection. The connection cachers are opportunistically taking advantage of a single connection to throw as many messages as they want at aol. >I could make 100 connections, one per message; this is what qmail does. >The aol.com MX has to fork off 100 instances of its MTA to accomplish >delivery. "The" aol MX is not a single machine, of course. >Or I could make one connection for all 100 messages; this is what sendmail >does. The aol.com MX has to fork but 1 instance of its MTA to accomplish >delivery. I send messages serially to aol.com only as fast as it can >receive them. Forking a process per connection isn't that big a deal. The real bottleneck in accepting mail is disk I/O. Connection caching MTA's do *lots* more disk I/O per connection than qmail. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 12:29:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA04617; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA04598 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4027 invoked by uid 3995); 14 Jul 1998 18:57:19 -0000 Message-ID: <19980714185719.4026.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980714120307.27531.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980714142013.29684.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Say you have 20 messages you need to deliver to AOL. sendmail and exim >create one SMTP connection and deliver the 20 messages sequentially; the >AOL MX needs one instance of its MTA to handle this traffic. qmail creates >20 simultaneous SMTP connections and delivers all 20 messages >simultaneously; Correct. >the AOL MX needs 20 instances of its MTA to handle this traffic. Only because AOL uses a monlithic MTA (sendmail). To accept a message via SMTP, AOL has to load the entire sendmail system: SMTP daemon, queue manager, config file parser, delivery router, alias database rebuilder, queue pretty printer, SMTP client, etc.--most of which are just dead weight. If they used a modular MTA like qmail or VMailer, they'd only have to fork an SMTP daemon for each connection. AOL has decided that this is the way they want to do things. AOL has decided that efficiency isn't a high priority for them. It's not qmail's fault. >In plain English, qmail generates 20 times the instantaneous load on the >remote machine as either sendmail or exim. Granted, for this example. >In plain English, qmail >deliberately hammers a remote system at the point it is most loaded. Er, what makes any point at which a user e-mails to 20 people at AOL "the point at which it is most loaded"? -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 12:42:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA02487; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA02473 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3442 invoked by uid 3995); 14 Jul 1998 18:19:52 -0000 Message-ID: <19980714181952.3441.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <199807141519.KAA26323@Mars.mcs.net> References: <19980714132559.28816.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <199807141519.KAA26323@Mars.mcs.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >What? What's the difference between "don't accept" and "refuse". Establishing a TCP connection requires three steps: 1) initiator send packet to target requesting connection 2) target acknowledges the request 3) initiator acknowledges the acknowledgement Not accepting the connection means step 2 is delayed until either the request times out or the target sends an ACK. Refusing the connection means the target immediately sends a refusal (NAK). Weren't you the person who told me I should read up on congestion in high-speed networks? Might I suggest you read "Internetworking With TCP/IP : Principles, Protocols, and Architecture, Volume 1" by Douglas E. Comer? -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 12:46:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA06764; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA06665 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [194.112.52.100] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0ywAor-0001UL-00; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:32:58 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980714203313.00809100@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:33:13 +0100 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <19980714174515.2870.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> References: <199807141540.LAA00114@eclectic.kluge.net> <199807141435.KAA15195@cis.ohio-state.edu> <199807141540.LAA00114@eclectic.kluge.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Let's just keep it short shall we - this is: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Yes the mail system is important in this but it's *not* majordomo you're talking about here and I think we can safely say the discussion has been given a fair airing in this forum. Take it elsewhere. If someone wants advice on qmail I'm sure Dave will be very happy to provide it directly. If anyone wants to ask why we use Exim instead of sendmail (and still think qmail is good in many circumstances) I'd be happy to handle those. None of this should be on this list. Manar From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 12:48:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA03511; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA03498 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3624 invoked by uid 3995); 14 Jul 1998 18:34:20 -0000 Message-ID: <19980714183420.3623.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980714141606.29618.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >What percentage of corporate or organizational mail-hubs' traffic is >multirecipient->single MX SMTP? Divide that by HTTP traffic. Compare to >(division by zero). Divide apples by oranges. What the heck does multirecipient->single MX SMTP mailhub traffic have to do with HTTP? If you mean to compare intranet backbone multirecipient->single MX SMTP to HTTP, I can assure you it's nowhere near division by zero at ORNL. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 13:01:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA08007; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA07990 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15301 invoked by uid 500); 14 Jul 1998 20:00:07 -0000 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <19980708123134.14331.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710114842.5047.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710174433.10831.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980710221708.15107.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980713115908.6118.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> From: Russ Allbery In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Mon, 13 Jul 98 07:59:07 EST" Date: 14 Jul 1998 13:00:07 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 36 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Sill writes: > Russ Allbery wrote: >> No, qmail doesn't require any patches to Majordomo. I recommend one >> patch (to change owner-LIST to LIST-owner) for additional ease of >> handling bounces, but it's *not* necessary. > Oops, my mistake. Forgot that mjinject obviated the need to force all > lists to be stripped. Not entirely, unfortunately. I need to tweak that code some more. But that doesn't require a patch; it just requires config file updates. The old patch was to disallow addresses beginning with non-alphanumerics, which you have to do if you're using the address list as a .qmail file directly. mjinject feeds it to qmail-queue instead, so that's not required. > I disagree. qmail is easily throttled by adjusting concurrencyremote. qmail with a concurrencyremote configured so that it doesn't open more connections than sendmail is going to be slower than sendmail in a situation where the vast majority of subscribers on a large list are at a single host. > Remote systems on your campus should be configured to accept only as > many connections as they can handle. If they do that, everything will > work fine. The only thing qmail will break is a poorly managed mail hub. If you have some way of convincing people that it's their problem and they have to update e-mail systems that are currently functioning just fine, without tons of political backlash, then you're far better at this than I. Reality is that you have to work with what people have, not with what you wish they had. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 13:15:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA08145; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA08122 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mercury.mcs.net (les@Mercury.mcs.net [192.160.127.80]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id PAA27572; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:02:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from les@localhost) by Mercury.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id PAA13490; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:02:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Leslie Mikesell Message-Id: <199807142002.PAA13490@Mercury.mcs.net> Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) To: de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:02:43 -0500 (CDT) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <19980714185719.4026.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> from "Dave Sill" at Jul 14, 98 02:57:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Dave Sill: > > > >the AOL MX needs 20 instances of its MTA to handle this traffic. > > Only because AOL uses a monlithic MTA (sendmail). To accept a message > via SMTP, AOL has to load the entire sendmail system: SMTP daemon, > queue manager, config file parser, delivery router, alias database > rebuilder, queue pretty printer, SMTP client, etc.--most of which are > just dead weight. They aren't dead weight. Each of those steps still has to happen for every message. > If they used a modular MTA like qmail or VMailer, they'd only have to > fork an SMTP daemon for each connection. That goes as far as writing the queue file. Now what? Les Mikesell les@mcs.com From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 13:17:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA04380; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irafs1.ira.uka.de (irafs1.ira.uka.de [129.13.10.100]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA04365 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isdn217-133.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.20.2] (actually studsun1) by irafs1 with SMTP (PP); Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:51:06 +0200 From: Marc.Haber-lists@gmx.de (Marc Haber) To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: getting one digest per message Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:50:24 GMT Organization: posting from University of Karlsruhe, Germany References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <"irafs1.ira.898:14.07.98.18.51.07"@ira.uka.de> Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:48:54 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: >On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Marc Haber wrote: >; > digest_maxlines =3D 50 > ^^ >I think this is the problem. You're telling Majordomo to send a >digest whenever it will exceed 50 lines. Try something larger, like >500. :) But I did not tell Majordomo to hurl 20-line-digests in my direction. Which exactly is what it does when I send it a 12-line message. Greetings Marc --=20 -------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! = ----- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im = Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | Fon: *49 721 966 32= 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fax: *49 721 966 31= 29 From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 13:28:52 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA03573; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA03565 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mercury.mcs.net (les@Mercury.mcs.net [192.160.127.80]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id NAA22916; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:34:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from les@localhost) by Mercury.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id NAA10927; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:34:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Leslie Mikesell Message-Id: <199807141834.NAA10927@Mercury.mcs.net> Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) To: de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:34:50 -0500 (CDT) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <19980714174515.2870.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> from "Dave Sill" at Jul 14, 98 01:45:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Dave Sill: > > I run two lists for system administrators who are often under > substantial pressure to get systems running again. There's a huge > difference to them between getting an answer in 10 or 15 minutes and > getting it in 2 or 3 hours. > > That's exactly the difference switching from sendmail to qmail made. How much of this gain do you think came from delivering separate copies to the same destination and how much from running parallel connections to different machines? > Even non-time critical lists benefit by improved response time. There is nothing wrong with running deliveries in parallel to different hosts, but you can get that with bulk_mailer, smartlist, and perhaps someday majordomo 2.x without splitting messages into multiple copies per destination. Les Mikesell les@mcs.com From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 13:31:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA08627; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA08579 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA05812 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:09:03 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <19980714120307.27531.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980714142013.29684.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980714185719.4026.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 14 Jul 1998 16:09:03 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Tue, 14 Jul 98 14:57:19 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 29 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: >> the AOL MX needs 20 instances of its MTA to handle this traffic. > Only because AOL uses a monlithic MTA (sendmail). Irrelevant. If AOL were using qmail it would have to fork 20 copies of the MTA in order to deal with the 20 incoming messages. Regardless of the recipient's MTA, qmail requires 20 times the instantaneous resources on the recipient's system as any other MTA. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNau63p6VRH7BJMxHAQHpwQP7B6a8qlZrM5LbmNf0piqQCXqQROndmG/1 sGlpDFIEPgtlbJi+yzHk1IUz94dCnGi3yb/OHbx4OSH/llmncwpyQ7aINJhbA+Rv laMpxpMY/uB/AunaFp6LQ0i1V4gsXsTvNczBWKFELKyu60TpWH1uKYANdJg47UWv XapyFedQtoQ= =3/yI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Warning: pregnant women, the Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / elderly, and children under 10 Prescient Technologies, Inc. / should avoid prolonged exposure to I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / Happy Fun Ball. From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 13:33:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA07091; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA07062 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA04775 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:39:24 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <199807131532.LAA00082@cis.ohio-state.edu> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 14 Jul 1998 15:39:24 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Barr's message of "Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:31:51 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 30 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Barr writes: >> "Be conservative in what you send." qmail is not conservative in what it >> sends. > As has been said before several times, that maxim refers to quality, > not quantity. And as I have been refuting, it does not. The maxim refers to *BOTH* quality *AND* quantity. If one connection will do the job, there is no good reason to make 20 connections to do the same job. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNauz656VRH7BJMxHAQFNjgP/Y3dndT6mQwbtG8hc+ni0pQDDefNQYZds pelHPoe8hUlkAiyf7SjN687mXt2lJP/21clxjyF31TqL5/hLdGTS9POlmhBwYZ1h x0NAmEGN9/GF233ABoy5fkEoI5oBHY3CqjUvAMR03TdQtt0KwyKdfjyLTY4cpLl1 PQkLiRFL5sw= =SM1w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Do not use Happy Fun Ball on Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / concrete. Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 13:35:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA02531; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsn.org (gsn.org [199.106.67.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA02485 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from erica (qnet.gsn.org [207.155.35.139]) by gsn.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA12530 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:16:24 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Erica Zubkoff" To: Subject: Digest & Attachments Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:17:00 -0700 Message-ID: <005601bdaf53$98196770$0100000a@erica> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hey Everyone, I've looked and looked and can't seem to find the solution to this problem so perhaps someone here can lend a helping hand? I host a rather active Logo mailing list and attachments are constantly being sent back and forth among list members. The regular mailing list deals with attachments perfectly by displaying attachments as just that, attachments. However, the digested version of the list instead embeds the attachments within the text of the message. The question: Does anyone know how to get the digest to recognize attachments *as* attachments, just as the regular mailing list is able to do? Thanks for any help! =) -Erica __________ http://www.gsn.org ____________ Global SchoolNet Foundation Erica Zubkoff System Administrator http://www.gsn.org/who/team/ez.bio.html erica@gsn.org P.O. Box 2709 BUS: (760)249-5140 Wrightwood,CA FAX: (760)249-1220 92397-2709 ___________________________________________ From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 13:36:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA03211; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA03195 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3530 invoked by uid 3995); 14 Jul 1998 18:28:42 -0000 Message-ID: <19980714182842.3529.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980714174515.2870.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Why? What's wrong with realtime chat for realtime problems? If a >system's down, 15 minutes is no more acceptable than 2 or 3 hours. Some people are too busy to sit and watch a chat screen all day. Some people don't like chat systems at all, but are comfortable with their e-mail systems. I beg to differ with your assertion that smaller periods of downtime are no more acceptable than longer periods: it's absurd. Of *course* users prefer minimal downtime. Sheesh. We're not talking about fault tolerant systems here, you know. Hardware breaks, software crashes, people push the wrong buttons. Declaring *any* downtime "unacceptable" is not useful, and *not* minimizing downtime is a good way to lose your job. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 13:37:21 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA04049; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA04023 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3867 invoked by uid 3995); 14 Jul 1998 18:45:21 -0000 Message-ID: <19980714184521.3866.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: Leslie Mikesell Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <199807141834.NAA10927@Mercury.mcs.net> References: <19980714174515.2870.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <199807141834.NAA10927@Mercury.mcs.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >According to Dave Sill: >> >> I run two lists for system administrators who are often under >> substantial pressure to get systems running again. There's a huge >> difference to them between getting an answer in 10 or 15 minutes and >> getting it in 2 or 3 hours. >> >> That's exactly the difference switching from sendmail to qmail made. > >How much of this gain do you think came from delivering separate copies >to the same destination Not much, but it's definitely a factor. Sendmail used to grind away for 10 minutes doing MX lookups and sorting before it even tried to deliver the first message. qmail starts delivering concurrencyremote messages *immediately* and is done before sendmail gets the first message out. >and how much from running parallel connections to different machines? That's the lion's share, I'd say. Most of the time spent delivering mail via SMTP is spent waiting, so the more waiters you have running, the faster you're delivering. >There is nothing wrong with running deliveries in parallel to different >hosts, but you can get that with bulk_mailer, smartlist, and perhaps >someday majordomo 2.x without splitting messages into multiple copies >per destination. Parallel delivery isn't the only reason to use qmail, with or without Majordomo. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 13:38:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA03999; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA03988 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA02837 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:43:41 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <"Roger B.A. Klorese"'s message of "Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:06:40 -0700 (PDT)"> <3.0.5.32.19980713165855.007da6a0@krusty-motorsports.com> <19980714120307.27531.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980714180703.3219.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 14 Jul 1998 14:43:40 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Tue, 14 Jul 98 14:07:03 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 41 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > The scenario we were discussing was: aol "goes down" for some time, > when it comes back up, everyone's got a backlog of messages for aol, > plus there's the regular background rate of new messages to aol. sendmail still tries to make only one connection, while qmail tries to make 20. > When they bring the mail service back up, thousands of sendmail/exim/ > whatever-connection-caching-MTA-you-can-think-of is going to latch onto > the first successful connection they can make and download their *entire* > backlog. For the duration of the cache, which is 10 minutes by default, at which point it will close and start again. > In contrast, qmail will retry each message on its own quadratic > backoff schedule, Which ignores the remote site's situation while it continues to hammer away at it. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNaum256VRH7BJMxHAQGZ0gP+Mp3e2j9wxdTKK2UNLBW38HFxCgqg8nrf 9pVevJ61qW2RqpGlNLYp2QQFF8VA7+9XE0YtGiL9I7UY0hnGyu11ml6hRk7BcVy+ 4C5xTaU336oz3rIYGYoPerK0MdvAH3D4PI3YzNr5xc61/ie/3LUo8zKs8h9iQ5Bo VT7No4rz0Bo= =X9cU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / types of skin. Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 14:14:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA12646; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsulaw.gsu.edu (gsulaw.Gsu.EDU [131.96.159.141]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA12626 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (lawppw@localhost) by gsulaw.gsu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA02511 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:02:47 -0400 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:02:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Patrick Wiseman To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980714203313.00809100@stingray.ivision.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Manar Hussain wrote: :Let's just keep it short shall we - this is: : : majordomo-users@greatcircle.com : :Yes the mail system is important in this but it's *not* majordomo you're :talking about here and I think we can safely say the discussion has been :given a fair airing in this forum. Take it elsewhere. For what it's worth, I disagree. majordomo-users INCLUDE system administrators (of which I am, sort of, one). We're going through some transitions at our site at the moment, one of which might (if I'm persuaded) include changing our MTA. This discussion, while it's been a little testy at times, has been invaluable to me in figuring out what some of the issues are. It continues to be informative, IMO, and it continues to be relevant to the use of majordomo. Patrick From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 14:30:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA13939; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA13925 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA07698 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:18:16 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <19980714174515.2870.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <199807141834.NAA10927@Mercury.mcs.net> <19980714184521.3866.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 14 Jul 1998 17:18:16 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Tue, 14 Jul 98 14:45:21 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 57 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > Not much, but it's definitely a factor. Sendmail used to grind away > for 10 minutes doing MX lookups and sorting before it even tried to > deliver the first message. MX lookups are supposed to be done first. Then your local DNS cache will have that information. Which is why it is strongly recommended that any mail server dealing with lots of mail have at least a caching name server running on it. > qmail starts delivering concurrencyremote messages *immediately* and is > done before sendmail gets the first message out. And qmail must spend *EXACTLY* as much time with DNS as sendmail. Yes, qmail may be out the door first, but it is no faster than sendmail when dealing with DNS. If the person awaiting a response is down near the bottom of the queue, he will not get his response significantly faster. Which is why mailing lists of the sort described, such as sun-managers, have a policy that responses to postings be sent directly to the poster rather than the list, and the original poster will summarize. >> and how much from running parallel connections to different machines? > That's the lion's share, I'd say. Most of the time spent delivering > mail via SMTP is spent waiting, so the more waiters you have running, > the faster you're delivering. This is not true if you are waiting because of packet retransmission. Twenty "waiters" that are stalled due to packet collision and loss will be *slower* to recover overall than one such "waiter". [...] > Parallel delivery isn't the only reason to use qmail, with or without > Majordomo. But parallel delivery is a reason *NOT* to use qmail with Majordomo. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNavLE56VRH7BJMxHAQF2RAQAqlYL1TogRFwJWCrmx5U1i4+rvfqjFBPI GIPUg8OLbmDwyNAdXewprPZqBCA3SweJZ/TLUc8ki+0o96QTX+0KXl+91foT1VdX YkPu+w1+RK6rIkWyhsBRNFTdIJ6aF9yFijHEbgdyDlu/lO/u1/5ul2pzI8Wu+lZh 8evv6kR+pcI= =5uuJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / types of skin. Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 15:29:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA16095; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nanguo.chalmers.com.au (gateway.chalmers.com.au [203.1.96.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA16088 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chalmers.com.au (carbon.chalmers.com.au [203.1.96.26]) by nanguo.chalmers.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA29610 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:20:25 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <35ABD991.B2A2369@chalmers.com.au> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:20:01 +1000 From: Robert Chalmers Reply-To: robert@chalmers.com.au Organization: chalmers.com.au X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: How do I make the list messages show the list address Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk How do I make messages addressed to the list, show the list as the return address? and not my own address? thanks Robert -- Support Whirled Peas. Business in China? China House robert@chalmers.com.au ph:61 7 49440357 fx:61 7 49578425 #11252938 http://www.chalmers.com.au/ChinaHouse/Business/webposition http://www.chalmers.com.au/ChinaHouse/Business/net2phone.html http://www.chalmers.com.au/ChinaHouse/Business/vpay/vpay.html From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 15:45:16 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA16084; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cbgw2.lucent.com (cbgw2.lucent.com [207.24.196.52]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id PAA16077 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fonz.micro.lucent.com by cbig2.firewall.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id SAA12403; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:18:58 -0400 Received: by fonz.micro.lucent.com (8.8.6/EMS-1.2 sol2) id SAA29694; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by fonz.micro.lucent.com (8.8.6/EMS-1.2 sol2) id SAA29689; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:18:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:18:43 -0400 (EDT) From: ckp@micro.lucent.com (Andrew Winkler) Message-Id: <199807142218.SAA29689@fonz.micro.lucent.com> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: mailing lists and MTA's Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I agree that the SNR has been dropping, but also agree that it isn't low enough yet to end all discussion. First of all, only in the smallest installations would anybody _not_ segregate the list handling onto a separate listserver. Moreover, any kind of mail hub, including a listserver, would of course be running with at least (and I would argue at best...) a caching only name server. Obviously a mail hub will build up a very rich cache, so you won't see a lot of delay waiting for MX lookups. (And if you're not doing this, just waiting for sendmail to start will be excrutiating, especially if you are multihomed.) There is nothing which stops you from running multiple instances of sendmail as queue runners, you can kick them off out of cron. If you are doing all of this, I don't see a good reason why you would want to initiate multiple smtp sessions to a single destination. I agree, in general, that any packet is merely a request, and the full onus of dealing with that request lies with the recipient. Having said that, it may not be so easy for an smtp listener to know not to fork again to answer a second connection request. This is particularly a problem for those starting sendmail from inetd. Sendmail, on the other hand, probably could have code that recognizes that it has a running child already connected to a particular ip address, and refuse to connect again while it lives. But then a piggish host can just ifconfig itself as many addresses as it likes, and sendmail cannot possibly know that they are all from the same machine. In the end, of course, we have to have hosts identified, not by ip addresses, but by public keys, so we can prioritize whose attention is welcome. Maybe, in the end, we'll have to have Metcalfe's e-postage to rationalize costs. Don't you just hate natural selection? Cheers, Andy From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 16:15:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA17272; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA17256 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ben by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.00 #1) for majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM id 0ywCB0-0004zP-00; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:59:54 +0100 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:59:54 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Smithurst To: MJU Subject: Re: Haunting again: Text body being recognized as command? In-Reply-To: <35ABAABF.4A391B83@isi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Troy S. Choi wrote: > Sorry for bringing up same problem twice but what I thought fixed wasn't > really fixed. I did had "administrivia" set to "yes" and fixed it to "no". > Also checked the "taboo_body" and there is none but still getting this > "Admin request of type..." message. Look at admin_body, or something similar, in majordomo.cf. That's where the regexes for admin requests are, not taboo_etc. I think I've just got \bsubscribe\b and \bunsubscribe\b in there. In the perfect world all users would have a clue and you wouldn't need either in there. *sigh* > noadvertise << END > /./ You don't need that. /./ will only match email addresses with only one letter in them, I think, which isn't quite possible :-) [ok so I could send mail with an unqualified From header of just `b' but you know what I mean.] If you are wanting to make it a hidden list, try /.*/ -- Ben Smithurst From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 16:45:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA17830; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA17801 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA04042 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:33:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Ben Smithurst cc: MJU Subject: Re: Haunting again: Text body being recognized as command? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Ben Smithurst wrote: > > noadvertise << END > > /./ > > You don't need that. /./ will only match email addresses with only one > letter in them, I think, which isn't quite possible :-) [ok so I could > send mail with an unqualified From header of just `b' but you know > what I mean.] If you are wanting to make it a hidden list, try /.*/ Nope, you no longer need to -- /./ works fine, because it triggers if ANY character matches the "one single character" pattern, which they all do. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 19:15:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA19794; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from karma.isi.com (karma.isi.com [192.73.222.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA19786 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isi.com (argus.isi.com [192.103.55.143]) by karma.isi.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA24383; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35AC0FE8.E74D72BA@isi.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:11:52 -0700 From: "Troy S. Choi" Reply-To: tchoi@isi.com Organization: Intergrated Systems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben Smithurst CC: MJU Subject: Re: Haunting again: Text body being recognized as command? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ben Smithurst wrote: > > On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Troy S. Choi wrote: > > > Sorry for bringing up same problem twice but what I thought fixed wasn't > > really fixed. I did had "administrivia" set to "yes" and fixed it to "no". > > Also checked the "taboo_body" and there is none but still getting this > > "Admin request of type..." message. > > Look at admin_body, or something similar, in majordomo.cf. That's > where the regexes for admin requests are, not taboo_etc. I think I've > just got \bsubscribe\b and \bunsubscribe\b in there. In the perfect > world all users would have a clue and you wouldn't need either in > there. *sigh* > This should only apply when the "administrivia" is turned on isn't it? Best regards, --- Troy S. Choi From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 14 19:59:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA20667; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindresearch.cas.ilstu.edu (mindresearch.cas.ilstu.edu [138.87.151.22]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA20660 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindresearch.cas.ilstu.edu (mdmonk@mindresearch.cas.ilstu.edu [138.87.151.22]) by mindresearch.cas.ilstu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA02506 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:55:40 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:55:40 -0500 (CDT) From: mdmonk To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Archiving and Digesting Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have been trying to set up archiving and digesting for the lists I maintain on Majordomo. I have read the docs and found references to setting this up, but so far I have been unsuccessful. Does anyone know of a website/FAQ/etc... that has directions on setting archiving and digest up? Thanks for any and all replies. Chuck. MindResearch... From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 02:30:27 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id CAA25933; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA25919 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibm.net (pool045-max12.ds8-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.3.245]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA23009; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35AC73FF.6F9D3EB9@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:18:55 -0700 From: Jeff Lasman Reply-To: jlasman@ibm.net Organization: Interesting Times X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Houle , Majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Any way to restrict a list? References: <3.0.1.32.19980626154145.007b4e70@128.196.42.70> <199807082235.PAA20961@ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks for your reply, Bill. See below: Bill Houle wrote: > In defense of Rich's frustration, most of these types of questions can be > answered by reading the FAQ and the comments in each list.config file. This > has little to do with whether the Majordomo Docs -- which are by no means > perfect or newbie-oriented -- are available to non-local list owners. > > >I haven't read the list faq (but will, if someone would be so kind as to > >direct me to it); I hope it tells people (near the top ) where the > >majordomo documentation can be found. > > Ugh. 20 lashes with a wet noodle for the first part of the paragraph. The > FAQ is merely: > > 1) on the Majordomo Web site > 2) posted regularly to this mailing list > 3) in the list archives (by definition of #2) > 4) easily found via AltaVista, Yahoo, etc > > No excuses. Excuses, no. But reasons, yes. You posted this on 7/8. I finally got to read it on 7/14. I wish I had time to read these lists in a more timely manner. I wish I had time to go look at sites. I wish I had time to use search engines to find sites. Now, based on your reply, which I've printed out to save in my looseleaf "information" binder, I'll be able to find the relevant FAQ without much wasted time. I do appreciate it. Thanks. > However, the 2nd part is valid: > > Note to GreatCircle webmaster: for the benefit of list-owners who use > Majordomo as a service (rather than being the ones who installed it), can > the generic Doc/list-owner-info file be broken out of the tarball and made > available on the Majordomo Web site? Or at least link to Jeff's localized > HTML version at ? This is, > I think, the only piece of the Docs that is useful to those who do not > necessarily have access to the installed source. That would be wondeful. I hope they do it! I've been maintaining and moderating majordomo lists for years. I still don't know anything. Again, thanks. -- Jeff Lasman "Publisher of the FREE InterestingTimes computer-industry newsletter. To subscribe, write "subscribe InterestingTimes" (without the quotes) in the body of your email. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 04:59:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA29611; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 04:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itis.easilink.com (itis.easilink.com [192.41.78.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA29604 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 04:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wesix.Easilink.com (ip77.easilink.com [192.41.78.77]) by itis.easilink.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA04610 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:03:42 -0600 (MDT) From: "Michael Weber" To: Subject: Setting Up a Moderated List Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:02:08 -0600 Message-ID: <000e01bdafe8$6445a040$4d4e29c0@wesix.Easilink.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've poured over the README and the FAQ (which, by the way, do agree with each other) and can't seem to crack the case. Unapproved mail bounces to the moderator, but the moderator can't successfully approve the messages. I forward the messages to the list with 'Approve: ' in the body. The returned mail neither strips the headers or the approve line. I sure would be grateful if someone could point out what I've overlooked. Myke Weber From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 05:07:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA29548; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 04:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id EAA29535 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 04:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18749 invoked by uid 3995); 15 Jul 1998 11:49:00 -0000 Message-ID: <19980715114900.18748.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980714120307.27531.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980714142013.29684.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980714185719.4026.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Dave Sill writes: > >>> the AOL MX needs 20 instances of its MTA to handle this traffic. > >> Only because AOL uses a monlithic MTA (sendmail). > >Irrelevant. If AOL were using qmail it would have to fork 20 copies of the >MTA in order to deal with the 20 incoming messages. Nope. If AOL were using qmail it would have to fork 20 copies of qmail-smtp, which is just one small piece of qmail. >Regardless of the >recipient's MTA, qmail requires 20 times the instantaneous resources on the >recipient's system as any other MTA. Right, but with qmail or other modular MTA, each of those 20 chunks is substantially smaller than the sendmail or other monolithic MTA's equivalent. Under IRIX, for example: $ size -4 /var/qmail/bin/qmail-smtpd 36864 + 4096 + 6268 = 47228 $ size -4 /usr/lib/sendmail 458752 + 69632 + 57708 = 586092 -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 05:15:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA00431; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsulaw.gsu.edu (gsulaw.Gsu.EDU [131.96.159.141]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA00424 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (lawppw@localhost) by gsulaw.gsu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA27558; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:15:25 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:15:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Patrick Wiseman To: Michael Weber cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Setting Up a Moderated List In-Reply-To: <000e01bdafe8$6445a040$4d4e29c0@wesix.Easilink.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Michael Weber wrote: :I forward the messages to the list with 'Approve: ' in the body. :The returned mail neither strips the headers or the approve line. Assuming that's not a typo, it's "Approved: ", not "Approve". Patrick From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 05:30:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA00135; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id FAA00128 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 19090 invoked by uid 3995); 15 Jul 1998 12:12:28 -0000 Message-ID: <19980715121228.19089.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: mailing lists and MTA's In-Reply-To: <199807142218.SAA29689@fonz.micro.lucent.com> References: <199807142218.SAA29689@fonz.micro.lucent.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M >First of all, only in the smallest installations would anybody _not_ >segregate the list handling onto a separate listserver. Moreover, any >kind of mail hub, including a listserver, would of course be running with >at least (and I would argue at best...) a caching only name server. I tried that with sendmail and found that the nameserver was a resource hog and it was actually slowing things down. Haven't tried it with qmail, though--qmail does fewer DNS lookups. I'm a little leery of having to maintain another nameserver since BIND has been having security problems. >I agree, in general, that any packet is merely a request, and the full >onus of dealing with that request lies with the recipient. Having said that, >it may not be so easy for an smtp listener to know not to fork again to answer >a second connection request. This is particularly a problem for those starting >sendmail from inetd. That's a problem with inetd. Dan Bernstein, qmail's author, has also written something called ucspi-tcp, which contains "tcpserver", which most qmailers use to kick off qmail-smtp since it supports unlimited connection rates, concurrent connection limits, and tcp_wrapper-like access control. It'll work with sendmail, too. >Don't you just hate natural selection? Er, no. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 06:15:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA01566; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smultron.com (smultron.com [192.41.19.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA01559 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daw (56K-002.MaxTNT6.pdq.net [209.144.25.2]) by smultron.com (8.8.5) id IAA13011; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:15:21 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: From: "david a wahlstrom" To: "users" Subject: Administrative bounces Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:13:33 -0500 Message-ID: <000401bdaff2$5dff49c0$021990d1@daw> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Good day! Would someone kindly help me with administrative bounces? They are going to the list and I believe they should just be going to me. Is there a "switch" I need to "flip?" Dave Wahlstrom mailto:daw@pdq.net Prof DA Wahlström JD MS F.ASCE Originator, Swedes emailing list From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 06:28:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA01464; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.wizvax.net (mailgate.wizvax.net [199.181.141.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA01455 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from foodchain (ts2p25.wizvax.net [204.97.162.90]) by mailgate.wizvax.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.Beta3) with SMTP id JAA12208; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:07:09 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980714134457.007b6140@krusty-motorsports.com> X-Sender: rweltynw@krusty-motorsports.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:44:57 -0400 To: Russ Allbery , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Richard Welty Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980713194445.13378.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <3.0.5.32.19980714092959.007bce50@krusty-motorsports.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:51 AM 7/14/98 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: >Do you believe e-mail traffic to be of sufficient quantity to be even >noticeable at a high-traffic interchange point like MAE-East under high >load conditions? on reflection, probably not, but still, launching more connections than is really necessary still strikes me as inherently anti-social, and the qmail assumption that bandwidth is cheap still doesn't hold up in a backbone environment that includes the MAEs. richard -- Richard Welty NeWorks Networking, Inc. 518-244-9675 rwelty@neworks.net http://www.neworks.net/ From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 06:30:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA01603; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA01596 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA01296; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:19:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a004.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA09956; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:19:07 -0400 From: jkaplan@world.std.com (Jeffrey Kaplan) To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Setting Up a Moderated List Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:18:01 -0400 Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die Message-Id: <35acabc7.1826836@world.std.com> References: <000e01bdafe8$6445a040$4d4e29c0@wesix.Easilink.com> In-Reply-To: <000e01bdafe8$6445a040$4d4e29c0@wesix.Easilink.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hey Michael Weber! I got your message about Setting Up a Moderated List: ; I forward the messages to the list with 'Approve: ' in the body. ; The returned mail neither strips the headers or the approve line. The "Approved: passed" belongs in the headers, not the body. -- Jeffrey Kaplan <*> I'm set up for PGP. Are you? jkapllan@world.std.com <*> There's only one "l" in my name. There is no need to copy to me via email a newsgroup follow-up. The World does not necessarily agree with my opinions. "Oh, he's the same old Worf." "Prune juice, extra large." "See what I mean?" (Lt. Comdrs Dax and Worf, ST:DS9 "Let He Who Is Without Sin...") From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 06:39:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA01557; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA01550 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA24021 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:14:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Dave Sill cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <19980715114900.18748.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: > Nope. If AOL were using qmail it would have to fork 20 copies of > qmail-smtp, which is just one small piece of qmail. But still has the overhead of 20 forks, 20 process data structures, etc. > Right, but with qmail or other modular MTA, each of those 20 chunks > is substantially smaller than the sendmail or other monolithic MTA's > equivalent. Under IRIX, for example: > > $ size -4 /var/qmail/bin/qmail-smtpd > 36864 + 4096 + 6268 = 47228 > $ size -4 /usr/lib/sendmail > 458752 + 69632 + 57708 = 586092 ...the non-shared part of which isn't very big no matter what, even though there's a big difference. It's the overhead of instantiating and carrying around processes that we are considering, not just some working set. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 06:45:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA02544; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eclectic.kluge.net (eclectic.kluge.net [206.114.160.248]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA02535 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eclectic.kluge.net (felicity@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eclectic.kluge.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA06066 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:43:17 -0400 Message-Id: <199807151343.JAA06066@eclectic.kluge.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Setting Up a Moderated List In-Reply-To: Message from jkaplan@world.std.com (Jeffrey Kaplan) of "Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:18:01 EDT." <35acabc7.1826836@world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:43:17 -0400 From: Theo Van Dinter Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk | The "Approved: passed" belongs in the headers, not the body. it's allowed if it's a "fake header" ... (ie: it's the first line of the body with a blank line after it). -- Randomly Generated Tagline: Apathy error: Don't bother striking any key. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 07:00:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA02463; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA02456 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA24727 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:40:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Jeffrey Kaplan cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Setting Up a Moderated List In-Reply-To: <35acabc7.1826836@world.std.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote: > Hey Michael Weber! I got your message about Setting Up a Moderated > List: > > ; I forward the messages to the list with 'Approve: ' in the body. > ; The returned mail neither strips the headers or the approve line. > > The "Approved: passed" belongs in the headers, not the body. If your mailer doesn't permit adding headers, Majordomo's "resend" allows it to appear as the first line of the body, followed by (optionally, headers, then) a blank line and the actual body. Don't speak authoritatively when you're not sure, which you obviously aren't. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 07:00:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA03166; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA03159 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA07622; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:55:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp0a004.std.com by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA13247; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:53:41 -0400 From: jkaplan@world.std.com (Jeffrey Kaplan) To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Setting Up a Moderated List Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:52:35 -0400 Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die Message-Id: <35aeb1f5.3409494@world.std.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hey Roger B.A. Klorese! I got your message about Re: Setting Up a Moderated List: ; If your mailer doesn't permit adding headers, Majordomo's "resend" allows ; it to appear as the first line of the body, followed by (optionally, ; headers, then) a blank line and the actual body. Optimally, they belong in the headers. ; Don't speak authoritatively when you're not sure, which you obviously ; aren't. Don't be an asshole when you don't have to be, and there is no need to be here. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 07:15:16 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA03850; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 07:11:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id HAA03836 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 07:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21009 invoked by uid 3995); 15 Jul 1998 14:14:31 -0000 Message-ID: <19980715141431.21008.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <199807142002.PAA13490@Mercury.mcs.net> References: <19980714185719.4026.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <199807142002.PAA13490@Mercury.mcs.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >According to Dave Sill: >> >> Only because AOL uses a monlithic MTA (sendmail). To accept a message >> via SMTP, AOL has to load the entire sendmail system: SMTP daemon, >> queue manager, config file parser, delivery router, alias database >> rebuilder, queue pretty printer, SMTP client, etc.--most of which are >> just dead weight. > >They aren't dead weight. Each of those steps still has to happen for >every message. You rebuild the alias database (i.e., newaliases) every time you receive a message? You pretty print the queue (mailq/"sendmail -bp") every time you receive a message? I don't think so. More to the point, though: yes, these step have to be taken eventually for each message. But they don't have to be done when the message is accepted via SMTP, and they don't have to be done by the same process that accepted them via SMTP. >> If they used a modular MTA like qmail or VMailer, they'd only have to >> fork an SMTP daemon for each connection. > >That goes as far as writing the queue file. Now what? In qmail's case, other processes take over. qmail-send processes the queue and hands messages off to qmail-lspawn (local delivery) or qmail-rspawn (remote delivery). There's only one qmail-send process, up to concurrencylocal qmail-lspawn's, and up to concurrencyremote qmail-rspawn's. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 07:45:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA04453; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 07:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA04446 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 07:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA29225 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:42:10 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <19980714120307.27531.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980714142013.29684.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980714185719.4026.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980715114900.18748.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 15 Jul 1998 10:42:10 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Wed, 15 Jul 98 07:49:00 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 46 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > Nope. If AOL were using qmail it would have to fork 20 copies of > qmail-smtp, which is just one small piece of qmail. sendmail delivering 20 messages to AOL requires AOL's MX to fork its MTA, whatever it might be, once. qmail delivering the same 20 messages to AOL requires AOL's MX to fork its MTA, whatever it might be, 20 times. qmail's delivery mechanism forces AOL to consume 20 times the instantaneous resources as any other MTA. >> Regardless of the recipient's MTA, qmail requires 20 times the >> instantaneous resources on the recipient's system as any other MTA. > Right, but with qmail or other modular MTA, each of those 20 chunks > is substantially smaller than the sendmail or other monolithic MTA's > equivalent. Under IRIX, for example: > $ size -4 /var/qmail/bin/qmail-smtpd > 36864 + 4096 + 6268 = 47228 > $ size -4 /usr/lib/sendmail > 458752 + 69632 + 57708 = 586092 47228 times 20 = 944560. 944560 is larger than 586092, and that does not factor the overhead of qmail-smtp forking 20 times to sendmail's forking but once. So by your own proof, 20 instances of qmail-smtp consumes more system resources than sendmail. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNay/wZ6VRH7BJMxHAQFK5gP9HBDQ7w6q90ZrEm4h2GmX4ma/eCp1zZyx KTEOP/RTM+78pCTwqgFPiuiBqmKgJP1vR0KfTb1SGgvO5po3/m6cyXKV9bj5qzmu F5gauP+pKzD9O5/hU3u27BKQZhJZjtWaSWzEq8R0TlKxbOKkIbQFLYckVgC2YoZ4 UhYd1tpbwIw= =3R86 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 08:00:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA04619; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 07:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA04600 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 07:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA29617 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:52:00 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: mailing lists and MTA's References: <199807142218.SAA29689@fonz.micro.lucent.com> <19980715121228.19089.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 15 Jul 1998 10:52:00 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Wed, 15 Jul 98 08:12:28 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 34 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > I tried that with sendmail and found that the nameserver was a > resource hog and it was actually slowing things down. While name servers are resource hogs, a well-tuned name server on a sufficiently powerful machine speeds up everything. Please do not attribute sendmail's apparant lack of performance on your badly configured name server running on an underpowered system. > Haven't tried it with qmail, though--qmail does fewer DNS lookups. SMTP specs require a DNS lookup for every recipient, to find that recipient's MX if it exists. If qmail does not do this it breaks SMTP specs. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNazCCJ6VRH7BJMxHAQF3pQP7B1nT4RR/jTLKUxflow0o5Mv5CI87ud3y 5D+Y46OVAdFqDp5OZ7tVNTjpj0eNloZbu7SzPNyKdy9kH93IJloVMK5S/Q5T9od6 8PTJ5Q3j/txtjbLIu4bL0xUk+fqCek8dXBk8d0M+WyqnrO8+VzSh0mlDJ9qmguOo qx/DzJjxvLs= =hgrZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / core, which, if exposed due to Prescient Technologies, Inc. / rupture, should not be touched, I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / inhaled, or looked at. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 08:30:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA05690; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA05683 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA27591 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:30:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Dave Sill cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <19980715141431.21008.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: > You rebuild the alias database (i.e., newaliases) every time you > receive a message? You pretty print the queue (mailq/"sendmail -bp") > every time you receive a message? I don't think so. And the code to do so never gets page-faulted in, then. I assume you've heard of virtual memory? -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 08:47:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA05830; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.wizvax.net (mailgate.wizvax.net [199.181.141.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA05822 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from foodchain (ts2p25.wizvax.net [204.97.162.90]) by mailgate.wizvax.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.Beta3) with SMTP id LAA17537; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:40:19 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980715113711.007da330@krusty-motorsports.com> X-Sender: rweltynw@krusty-motorsports.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:37:11 -0400 To: Rich Pieri , majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: Richard Welty Subject: Re: mailing lists and MTA's In-Reply-To: References: <199807142218.SAA29689@fonz.micro.lucent.com> <19980715121228.19089.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:52 AM 7/15/98 -0400, Rich Pieri wrote: >Dave Sill writes: >> I tried that with sendmail and found that the nameserver was a >> resource hog and it was actually slowing things down. >While name servers are resource hogs, a well-tuned name server on a >sufficiently powerful machine speeds up everything. Please do not >attribute sendmail's apparant lack of performance on your badly configured >name server running on an underpowered system. bind 8 does a lot less forking than previous versions. i find that i don't have any problems on a sufficiently well configured mail server with bind chewing up resources. richard -- Richard Welty NeWorks Networking, Inc. 518-244-9675 rwelty@neworks.net http://www.neworks.net/ From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 08:58:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA05581; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA05567 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mercury.mcs.net (les@Mercury.mcs.net [192.160.127.80]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id KAA11914; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:18:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from les@localhost) by Mercury.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id KAA06829; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:18:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Leslie Mikesell Message-Id: <199807151518.KAA06829@Mercury.mcs.net> Subject: Re: mailing lists and MTA's To: rich.pieri@prescienttech.com (Rich Pieri) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:18:40 -0500 (CDT) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Rich Pieri" at Jul 15, 98 10:52:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Rich Pieri: > > > I tried that with sendmail and found that the nameserver was a > > resource hog and it was actually slowing things down. > > While name servers are resource hogs, a well-tuned name server on a > sufficiently powerful machine speeds up everything. Please do not > attribute sendmail's apparant lack of performance on your badly configured > name server running on an underpowered system. I like to run a caching server on the list server machine configured as a slave to a nearby master that handles the rest of the organization. That gives you a very good chance of getting your answer with at most one ethernet hop - and the second time will be local. > > Haven't tried it with qmail, though--qmail does fewer DNS lookups. > > SMTP specs require a DNS lookup for every recipient, to find that > recipient's MX if it exists. If qmail does not do this it breaks SMTP > specs. Sendmail usually does a couple of lookups per header. This isn't really 'sendmail' but that's what the typical sendmail.cf requests. If you are caching on the local machine it's not a problem, and if it were you could reduce the steps in sendmail.cf to match what qmail does. Les Mikesell les@mcs.com From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 09:03:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA06195; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA06188 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA04801 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:52:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807151552.LAA04801@cis.ohio-state.edu> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:14:43 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:51:36 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >...the non-shared part of which isn't very big no matter what, even though >there's a big difference. It's the overhead of instantiating and carrying >around processes that we are considering, not just some working set. Please share with us your performance measurements. --Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 09:17:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA06291; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA06283 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22627 invoked by uid 3995); 15 Jul 1998 15:54:56 -0000 Message-ID: <19980715155456.22626.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980715141431.21008.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: >> You rebuild the alias database (i.e., newaliases) every time you >> receive a message? You pretty print the queue (mailq/"sendmail -bp") >> every time you receive a message? I don't think so. > >And the code to do so never gets page-faulted in, then. How do you know that? Sure, some of the unused code might stay on disk, but some of it doesn't. >I assume you've heard of virtual memory? No, why don't you tell me all about it? -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 09:30:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA06139; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA06132 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA04740 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:51:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807151551.LAA04740@cis.ohio-state.edu> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:44:57 EDT." <3.0.5.32.19980714134457.007b6140@krusty-motorsports.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:50:38 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >on reflection, probably not, but still, launching more connections than is >really necessary still strikes me as inherently anti-social, That's how web browsers work. Early on, people realized the lockstep nature of HTTP was slowing web page loading down. Now they use 4 or more simultaneous connections. Then they came up with persistent connections to deal with some complaints about setup/teardown costs affecting the backbone. I believe qmail needs to do this too (especially once it gets more popular and contributes a measurable amount towards email flow). There's nothing new about qmail's "anti-social" methods. In the days before streaming NNTP, it was not unusual for sites to have 10 or 20 simultaneous NNTP connections in order to keep up with news flow. Even with streaming, servers often have 3-6 connections going (that's per site). Yes, those connections are persistent and long-lived, but they maximize article flow at the expense if higher bandwidth utilization. More duplicates arrive, but at least you can keep up. --Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 09:34:27 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA05699; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA05692 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22285 invoked by uid 3995); 15 Jul 1998 15:32:18 -0000 Message-ID: <19980715153218.22284.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980714120307.27531.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980714142013.29684.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980714185719.4026.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980715114900.18748.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >Dave Sill writes: > >> Nope. If AOL were using qmail it would have to fork 20 copies of >> qmail-smtp, which is just one small piece of qmail. > >sendmail delivering 20 messages to AOL requires AOL's MX to fork its MTA, >whatever it might be, once. qmail delivering the same 20 messages to AOL >requires AOL's MX to fork its MTA, whatever it might be, 20 times. qmail's >delivery mechanism forces AOL to consume 20 times the instantaneous >resources as any other MTA. Right, I agree. My point was that AOL doesn't *have* to fork N copies of their MTA to accept N messages: they *choose* to fork N copies of every message by choosing to run a monolithic MTA. >47228 times 20 = 944560. 944560 is larger than 586092, and that does not >factor the overhead of qmail-smtp forking 20 times to sendmail's forking >but once. So by your own proof, 20 instances of qmail-smtp consumes more >system resources than sendmail. I never said it didn't. I said 20 qmail-smtpd's would use less than 20 sendmail's. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 09:40:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA05940; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA05916 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22479 invoked by uid 3995); 15 Jul 1998 15:45:12 -0000 Message-ID: <19980715154512.22478.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: mailing lists and MTA's In-Reply-To: References: <199807142218.SAA29689@fonz.micro.lucent.com> <19980715121228.19089.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >Dave Sill writes: > >> I tried that with sendmail and found that the nameserver was a >> resource hog and it was actually slowing things down. > >While name servers are resource hogs, a well-tuned name server on a >sufficiently powerful machine speeds up everything. Please do not >attribute sendmail's apparant lack of performance on your badly configured >name server running on an underpowered system. All I said was that sendmail+local-caching-only-BIND was slower than sendmail+remote-name-server when I tried it. I didn't blame anything on sendmail, and I don't claim to be BIND configuration expert. >> Haven't tried it with qmail, though--qmail does fewer DNS lookups. > >SMTP specs require a DNS lookup for every recipient, to find that >recipient's MX if it exists. If qmail does not do this it breaks SMTP >specs. Sendmail does more than one DNS lookup per recipient (I heard it was three on comp.mail.sendmail). I believe qmail only does one, also from that same thread on comp.mail.sendmail. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 09:46:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA08220; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.hollyfeld.org (www.hollyfeld.org [204.130.199.143]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA08149 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.hollyfeld.org (www.hollyfeld.org [204.130.199.143]) by www.hollyfeld.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA15336 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:52:27 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:52:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Garcia To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Bandwidth control? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello alls, I have a rather peculiar need. I have a bunch of moderate to high traffic lists that I host, however, my mail server shares a 67k line with the rest of my machines at home, and i'd like to be able to make use of some of myu connection without it being swamped by mail traffic. So - what i'm looking for is some form of throttleing solution - where I can say that I don't want my mail delivery exceeding a rate of, say 20k/second. Is there a mail delivery agent that allows this restriction? Or is there something else I can put in that will do this (I only want this restriction on email traffic, and if possible, only outbound email traffic). FWIW, i'm ucrrently using sendmail & linux as well as majordomo (I don't mind a mjordomo specific solution, as that is the cause of 99% of my outbound traffic :) Cheers, --Dg From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 10:01:52 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA07387; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:25:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA07378 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA03555 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:28:23 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <199807151552.LAA04801@cis.ohio-state.edu> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 15 Jul 1998 12:28:23 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Barr's message of "Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:51:36 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 26 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Barr writes: > Please share with us your performance measurements. It is qmail and its proponents that are claiming that qmail is superior to sendmail. The burden of proving that claim rests on qmail and its proponents. In other words, put up or shut up. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNazYpp6VRH7BJMxHAQEjdAP/YlkccAkiEb9G5vxWuyJMGS4kf04JOCHD Tb7nWnp4ANbg7h94fASL/4wEEsWqm7FTdk1RJPPuWFcT9BSw8YjXYDy8OYSqc3G/ eGJcdqk05yPaElYIURs8GPqH1sqWSb/DMb/ew9nbYzuo6PpQ3wugEvzqa5Ov+vvL 7AuJEvOYIwQ= =N878 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Do not use Happy Fun Ball on Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / concrete. Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 10:03:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA07480; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsn.org (gsn.org [199.106.67.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA07473 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from erica (clubnet.gsn.org [206.126.141.248]) by gsn.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA25904; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:28:29 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Erica Zubkoff" To: Cc: Subject: RE: Administrative bounces Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:29:02 -0700 Message-ID: <006501bdb00d$ad6a7320$0100000a@erica> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <000401bdaff2$5dff49c0$021990d1@daw> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave, > -----Original Message----- > From: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM > [mailto:majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM]On Behalf Of david a > wahlstrom > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 1998 6:14 AM > To: users > Subject: Administrative bounces > > > Good day! > > Would someone kindly help me with administrative bounces? They > are going to > the list and I believe they should just be going to me. Is there > a "switch" > I need to "flip?" -Make sure you have "administravia = yes" in your listname.config file. -Make sure your list-owner/owner-list is set to you (and not the list!) in your aliases file. -If moderated, make sure you have "moderator = list-owner" in listname.config (or at least make sure you don't have the moderator = listname in there). Hope this helps! =) -Erica __________ http://www.gsn.org ____________ Global SchoolNet Foundation Erica Zubkoff System Administrator http://www.gsn.org/who/team/ez.bio.html erica@gsn.org P.O. Box 2709 BUS: (760)249-5140 Wrightwood,CA FAX: (760)249-1220 92397-2709 ___________________________________________ From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 10:16:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA09301; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA09294 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA04812 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:02:33 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <19980714120307.27531.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980714142013.29684.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980714185719.4026.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980715114900.18748.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980715153218.22284.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 15 Jul 1998 13:02:32 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Wed, 15 Jul 98 11:32:18 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 26 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > I never said it didn't. I said 20 qmail-smtpd's would use less than 20 > sendmail's. Your logic is flawed, Dave. One instance of sendmail does the same job as 20 instances of qmail-smtp. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNazgp56VRH7BJMxHAQHn/AP9EgZy6fy1ie2h2SYqoX8uzW7wV1AQM01y JKioHsR63itvRo7XaWaL9BxJ+YkThKSA8ZQmV863eArN7G8VhwR66OpUX29AtI2Z nQKExIjUUJ0PG35ii8uDd3niH6pOq0Pl70r1R4coWUuhR1wKZbpBNGZgPe+bRSIs cYyScWdhVpI= =55Vs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / When not in use, Happy Fun Ball Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / should be returned to its special Prescient Technologies, Inc. / container and kept under I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / refrigeration. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 10:16:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA07435; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA07424 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibm.net (pool003-max6.ds8-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.2.153]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23399 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35ACD94C.9303A1C4@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:31:08 -0700 From: Jeff Lasman Reply-To: jlasman@ibm.net Organization: Interesting Times X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Alphabitizing the subscription list References: <35A7D7C4.294C0468@infinityhealthcare.com> <35A7DD67.69304772@rapidnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It can be a lot easier than that if you're running Win95/98, or 3.1. I'm not sure about NT; I'm working from home today, I don't have an NT system handy, so I can't test it. Just do the following from a command prompt (DOS prompt): sort outfilename.ext Works fine. "outfilename.ext" has the sorted list. BUT: If you've got shell access to the unix account where your list resides, you can (and should) use the unix sort command. If you don't, then you may not have write access to ftp your sorted file back to the unix box. Jack Teems wrote: > > Back in the days when I did all my mailing with Eudora, I used MS Word to > alphabetize and then simply copied and pasted back to the address book. > > Mark A. Bialik wrote: > > > Ed Rogers wrote: > > > > > Anyone know of a quick and easy way to alphabatize a LONG list of > > > subscribers on a list without doing it by hand? Is there a script for > > > that? > > > > Well, on a UNIX system, try this from the shell: > > > > sort -f listname > listname.out > > mv listname.out listname > > > > You need to redirect sort's output to a file in order to save it, like I > > did above. Then rename the .out file to your regular listname. I'd > > backup the original first. > > > > Just do a sort -f listname without redirection if you want to see what > > it's going to do, just to make sure everything looks the way you want. > > > > The -f option will treat upper and lowercase letters the same (C is the > > same as a c). > > > > Good luck, > > Mark > > > > ====================================================================== > > Mark A. Bialik (414) 290-6749 > > Systems/Security Administrator www.pmihwy.com/~markb > > Preferred Medical Informatics markb@pmihwy.com > > Infinity HealthCare, Inc. mbialik@infinityhealthcare.com > > Mequon, WI USA www.linux.org > > ====================================================================== > > -- > ~~~~ > A light-hearted (not too technical) collection of computer and internet tips > twice monthly. > That's NEAT NET TRICKS. Subscribe free with email to > majordomo@majordomo.net > and indicate in the message body 'subscribe neatnettricks' (without > quotes.) Or, visit > the web site at http://bounce.to/jteems -- Jeff Lasman "Publisher of the FREE InterestingTimes computer-industry newsletter. To subscribe, write "subscribe InterestingTimes" (without the quotes) in the body of your email. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 10:30:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA08683; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shire.middleearth.net (shire.middleearth.net [209.54.40.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA08658 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (newslist@localhost) by shire.middleearth.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA07740 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:51:27 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:51:23 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeff Fitzgerald X-Sender: newslist@shire.middleearth.net To: Majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Is this right? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I keep getting messages like this where it looks like the person did just what they were supposed to. But why do I get this instead of it processing correctly? Here is the latest messge: Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:48:07 -0400 From: leonardf@hotmail.com To: "'Majordomo@flagfootball.com'" Subject: RE: Confirmation for subscribe ezine auth 01748d5a subscribe ezine leonardf@hotmail.com ---------- From: Majordomo@flagfootball.com[SMTP:Majordomo@flagfootball.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 1998 10:54 AM To: leonardf@hotmail.com Subject: Confirmation for subscribe ezine -- Someone (possibly you) has requested that your email address be added to or deleted from the mailing list "ezine@flagfootball.com". If you really want this action to be taken, please send the following commands (exactly as shown) back to "Majordomo@flagfootball.com": auth 01748d5a subscribe ezine leonardf@hotmail.com If you do not want this action to be taken, simply ignore this message and the request will be disregarded. If your mailer will not allow you to send the entire command as a single line, you may split it using backslashes, like so: auth 01748d5a subscribe ezine \ leonardf@hotmail.com If you have any questions about the policy of the list owner, please contact "ezine-approval@flagfootball.com". Thanks! Majordomo@flagfootball.com From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 10:41:27 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA09885; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA09870 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA05159 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:12:43 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: mailing lists and MTA's References: <199807142218.SAA29689@fonz.micro.lucent.com> <19980715121228.19089.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980715154512.22478.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 15 Jul 1998 13:12:44 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Wed, 15 Jul 98 11:45:12 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 48 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > All I said was that sendmail+local-caching-only-BIND was slower than > sendmail+remote-name-server when I tried it. I didn't blame anything > on sendmail, and I don't claim to be BIND configuration expert. This is what you said: >>> I tried that with sendmail and found that the nameserver was a >>> resource hog and it was actually slowing things down. The implication is that your name server was bogging down sendmail. In the real world this generally does not happen unless your name server is woefully underpowered (something I find suprising for a qmail proponent, since qmail almost universally requires relatively powerful machines), in which case the entire machine is bogged down. Name servers as a rule need lots of physical memory to store their caches. [...] > Sendmail does more than one DNS lookup per recipient (I heard it was > three on comp.mail.sendmail). I believe qmail only does one, also from > that same thread on comp.mail.sendmail. This is what you said before: >>> Haven't tried it with qmail, though--qmail does fewer DNS lookups. Please do not present third-hand hearsay as facts. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNazjCp6VRH7BJMxHAQGSfwP/XPEUdIPFOoESqL7qxk5MNOO+eDzXTE9o n9aP2VJtaTZ2ll83aScyP55UfpiYzY4eBi8ArfUXw6Pz97hmqEMxiWrUStgcjMqC qdX6lYnZqvdJ5jsG00LCGYpl76lTakHbm/dvVV5nKnpl/j/ri9aO0APovKcwphb7 DCWUZikPTzo= =Rc+I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / When not in use, Happy Fun Ball Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / should be returned to its special Prescient Technologies, Inc. / container and kept under I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / refrigeration. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 11:00:21 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA11669; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA11638 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA10560 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:52:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807151752.NAA10560@cis.ohio-state.edu> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-reply-to: Your message of "15 Jul 1998 13:02:32 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:52:17 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Your logic is flawed, Dave. One instance of sendmail does the same job as >20 instances of qmail-smtp. And you say Dave's logic is flawed? How can you possibly support this statement? --Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 11:16:27 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA12545; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from praline.no.neosoft.com (praline.no.NeoSoft.COM [206.27.160.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA12511 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6379 invoked by uid 10086); 15 Jul 1998 18:15:16 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:15:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Ray Jones cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Setting Up a Moderated List In-Reply-To: <199807151343.JAA06066@eclectic.kluge.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Theo Van Dinter wrote: > | The "Approved: passed" belongs in the headers, not the body. > it's allowed if it's a "fake header" ... (ie: it's the first line of the > body with a blank line after it). I wonder how we have so many different ways of doing things. I've don't use an script, but approve the messages manually and neither of the above is the way I do it. The 'Approved: ' line is the very first line of the message with NO BLANK line between the approval line and the headers of the ORIGINAL MESSAGE. I've been doing it this way for years and it works fine for me. > > -- > Randomly Generated Tagline: > Apathy error: Don't bother striking any key. > > > -- Regards, "Big Ray the Cab Driver" Jones - Licensed Tour Guide ICQ UIN 1473313 Author of "The Complete Idiot's Travel Guide to New Orleans" ISBN 0-02-862303-7 Disseminating info about New Orleans & Louisiana via my web page at http://www.neosoft.com/~rayjones/welcome.html or you can join "Big Ray's" New Orleans Mailing List by sending: subscribe noml To: majordomo@communique.net From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 11:24:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA11837; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id KAA11798 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24467 invoked by uid 3995); 15 Jul 1998 17:54:31 -0000 Message-ID: <19980715175431.24466.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980714120307.27531.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980714142013.29684.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980714185719.4026.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980715114900.18748.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980715153218.22284.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >Dave Sill writes: > >> I never said it didn't. I said 20 qmail-smtpd's would use less than 20 >> sendmail's. > >Your logic is flawed, Dave. One instance of sendmail does the same job as >20 instances of qmail-smtp. Which is it, Rich? Does AOL fork 20 sendmails when qmail sends 20 messages, or do they fork one? -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 11:29:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA12754; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA12745 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA07072; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:25:48 -0500 (CDT) To: Allan Ku - Desktop Hardware Engineering Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Alphabitizing the subscription list References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 15 Jul 1998 13:25:48 -0500 In-Reply-To: Allan Ku - Desktop Hardware Engineering's message of "Sun, 12 Jul 1998 01:44:35 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 20 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.9/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "AK" == Allan Ku <- Desktop Hardware Engineering > writes: AK> A) Has anyone out there written a perl script to process the lists such AK> the all the addresses will be converted to "Surnames, First_names AK> B) Anyone knows if A) is planed to be included in the next version of AK> majordomo? Not really, although it does know how to get out something that might be a name out of the addresses, because the 'who' command can be configured to show names (or the stuff on the left of the '@' for addresses without comments) only. It's a simple step to rewriting addresses into some special form, but not one that I'm willing to take. - J< From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 11:44:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA12680; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA12664 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA06943; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:22:17 -0500 (CDT) To: Ed Rogers Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Alphabitizing the subscription list References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 15 Jul 1998 13:22:16 -0500 In-Reply-To: Ed Rogers's message of "Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:46:45 +0200 (GMT+0200)" Message-ID: Lines: 62 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.9/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "ER" == Ed Rogers writes: ER> Anyone know of a quick and easy way to alphabatize a LONG list of ER> subscribers on a list without doing it by hand? Here's my 'mungelist' script which can strip comments and sort a list. It doesn't alphabetize it, though; you need to define what 'alphabetic' means, else you'll get a lot of addresses starting with '<' at the top. Instead this script sorts things such that all, say, AOL addresses cluster together. It's easy to change that order, though. Perl5 and MailTools required. - J< #!/usr/local/bin/perl5 -w use strict; my($addr, $domain, $revdomain, $triple, @triples); use Getopt::Std; use Mail::Address; getopts('ot'); unless ($::opt_o || $::opt_t) { print <<"EOF"; Usage $0 [OPTION]... [ADDRESS FILE] -o sOrt the list of addresses -t sTrrip comments from the addresses Both sorting and stripping may be specified. EOF exit(0); } open(FILE,$ARGV[0]); while () { chomp; $addr = Mail::Address::address(parse Mail::Address $_); ($domain = $addr) =~ s/(.*@|\[|\])//g; $revdomain = uc(join('.',reverse(split /\./,$domain))); push @triples,[$_, $addr, $revdomain]; } close FILE; if ($::opt_o) { @triples = sort {$a->[2] cmp $b->[2]} @triples; } for $triple (@triples) { if ($::opt_t) { print "$triple->[1]\n"; } else { print "$triple->[0]\n"; } } From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 11:47:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA11779; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA11743 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA06105; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:53:42 -0500 (CDT) To: Jason Collins Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Version 2.0? References: <35894662.7CFFCD0E@myriadgate.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 15 Jul 1998 12:53:41 -0500 In-Reply-To: Jason Collins's message of "Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:54:58 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 38 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.9/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Yes, I'm replying to an old message; I've been out of the country for a month and am just catching up. >>>>> "JC" == Jason Collins writes: JC> Does anyone know what the release / development status of MajorDomo JC> version 2 is? Well, it's been on hold while I was out of the country. It's getting going again as I get up to speed and wade through the tens of thousands of messages I have waiting for me. It is in the alpha phase. What works works pretty well, but some things (like good documentation and digests) are absent. More testers, doc writers and coders (especially someone who knows web/CGI stuff) are really needed for it to really take off. JC> Does anyone know if it has a different (perhaps Web-based) way of JC> handling moderated lists and approval? Yes, a completely different way. The approval consultation contains an approval key which, when returned to the server, allows the action to succeed. This works for approving postings, new list members, or any other command. There is currently a simple web interface where you can enter an approval key, or you can just reply to the consultation message with the word "accept". If you've used OXymoron's easy confirmation patch, this works pretty much the same way but it extends to every function which might need approval or confirmation. JC> Essentially, I think I have reached the end of my rope on this problem, JC> and want to punt on the whole issue and get a different way of handling JC> approvals. (BTW, it has to be though email or web or equivalent as my JC> list moderators do not have access to our server). MajorCool also implements a method of posting approval which you might find useful. It has the benefit of working with your 1.94.x installation. - J< From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 11:54:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA12628; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA12621 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24901 invoked by uid 3995); 15 Jul 1998 18:20:10 -0000 Message-ID: <19980715182010.24900.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: mailing lists and MTA's In-Reply-To: References: <199807142218.SAA29689@fonz.micro.lucent.com> <19980715121228.19089.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980715154512.22478.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Dave Sill writes: > >> All I said was that sendmail+local-caching-only-BIND was slower than >> sendmail+remote-name-server when I tried it. I didn't blame anything >> on sendmail, and I don't claim to be BIND configuration expert. > >This is what you said: > >>>> I tried that with sendmail and found that the nameserver was a >>>> resource hog and it was actually slowing things down. Those are consistent. >The implication is that your name server was bogging down sendmail. In the >real world this generally does not happen unless your name server is >woefully underpowered No, it was a DECstation 5000/240 with 64MB--not bad for the time frame, which was about five years ago. >(something I find suprising for a qmail proponent, >since qmail almost universally requires relatively powerful >machines), *That* is probably the most ridiculous qmail-related claim you've made yet. qmail runs very nicely on lowly PC's. Red Hat moved their lists from sendmail on a Pentium PC to a 486 PC running qmail and their performance improved. >in which case the entire machine is bogged down. The machine was definitely busy. >> Sendmail does more than one DNS lookup per recipient (I heard it was >> three on comp.mail.sendmail). I believe qmail only does one, also from >> that same thread on comp.mail.sendmail. > >This is what you said before: > >>>> Haven't tried it with qmail, though--qmail does fewer DNS lookups. Those are consistent. >Please do not present third-hand hearsay as facts. The fact is that sendmail out-of-the box does more DNS lookups per recipient than qmail because of header rewriting. The "hearsay" part, which I clearly identified as such, was the lookup counts for sendmail and qmail. Isn't that axe sharp yet, Rich? -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 11:59:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA13579; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA13572 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mercury.mcs.net (les@Mercury.mcs.net [192.160.127.80]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id NAA26208; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:52:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from les@localhost) by Mercury.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id NAA11482; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:52:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Leslie Mikesell Message-Id: <199807151852.NAA11482@Mercury.mcs.net> Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) To: barr@cis.ohio-state.edu (Dave Barr) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:52:00 -0500 (CDT) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199807151551.LAA04740@cis.ohio-state.edu> from "Dave Barr" at Jul 15, 98 11:50:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Dave Barr: > > >on reflection, probably not, but still, launching more connections than is > >really necessary still strikes me as inherently anti-social, > > That's how web browsers work. Early on, people realized the lockstep > nature of HTTP was slowing web page loading down. Now they use 4 > or more simultaneous connections. Then they came up with persistent > connections to deal with some complaints about setup/teardown costs > affecting the backbone. Yes - after they realized just how horrible using a separate connection per page element was, they added more ugliness by trying to guess whether you are going to go back to the same server again and holding the connection open just-in-case. Don't even think about using this as an example of a good design. >I believe qmail needs to do this too (especially > once it gets more popular and contributes a measurable amount towards > email flow). There's nothing new about qmail's "anti-social" methods. The real anti-social effect happens *after* you have dumped many copies of the same thing into remote gateway's mail spool. Qmail has made it impossible to do the subsequent processing as the single message that it really is regardless of the efficiency of that mail system. Les Mikesell les@mcs.com From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 12:13:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA13075; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA13061 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA07694 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:36:16 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <199807151752.NAA10560@cis.ohio-state.edu> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 15 Jul 1998 14:36:16 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Barr's message of "Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:52:17 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 40 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Barr writes: >> Your logic is flawed, Dave. One instance of sendmail does the same job >> as 20 instances of qmail-smtp. > And you say Dave's logic is flawed? > How can you possibly support this statement? Assuming sender is sending 20 messages to recipient: Case 1: sender running sendmail. Sender generates one SMTP session for all 20 messages. Recipient requires one instance of his MTA to handle the SMTP session, for a total of 1 instance. Case 2: sender running qmail. Sender generates 20 SMTP sessions, one per message. Recipient requires one instance of his MTA for each SMTP session, for a total of 20 instances. Both cases deliver 20 messages from sender to recipient. Case 1 has one instance of sendmail; Case 2 has 20 instances of qmail. One instance of sendmail does the same job as 20 instances of qmail. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNaz2np6VRH7BJMxHAQEOIAQAueFHCjPDZwBbjUGSW+1CW6NwqKSFXjVB 3nKNB2OV3KabB54vBiUG2PB/6x0Tud99HDJVZdjATLtU773qopUR7Qp/XC0Q1kaS t0jWZ8IzZdwnGeQaBnOgrFdJOy64+aBar5QoKloNkQrRHyyB3KFjR+5EbUFMMHuH 1opqdEy+pVg= =h70X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 12:14:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA14665; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA14648 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18605 invoked by uid 500); 15 Jul 1998 19:10:50 -0000 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <199807151552.LAA04801@cis.ohio-state.edu> From: Russ Allbery In-Reply-To: Rich Pieri's message of "15 Jul 1998 12:28:23 -0400" Date: 15 Jul 1998 12:10:50 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rich Pieri writes: > It is qmail and its proponents that are claiming that qmail is superior > to sendmail. The burden of proving that claim rests on qmail and its > proponents. In other words, put up or shut up. If you're honestly curious about this question, please see my FAQ. It mentions several of the reasons why I think qmail is better than sendmail for Majordomo; the primary reasons for me are better security and much easier handling of incoming mail (no need to maintain lots of opaque aliases), as well as totally avoiding the problem of an unprotected outgoing alias. Performance isn't an issue for me at all either way; my lists are currently all very small. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 12:30:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA15766; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA15741 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA14171 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:28:54 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <199807151852.NAA11482@Mercury.mcs.net> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 15 Jul 1998 15:28:54 -0400 In-Reply-To: Leslie Mikesell's message of "Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:52:00 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 31 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Leslie Mikesell writes: > Yes - after they realized just how horrible using a separate connection > per page element was, they added more ugliness by trying to guess > whether you are going to go back to the same server again and holding > the connection open just-in-case. And in order to accomplish this, one must set the maximum number of allowed instances to some astronomically high number. For a moderately loaded server that expects something like 10 concurrent connects, the recommended maximum is 200 instances. This comes right out of the Netscape Enterprise Server 3.5 documentation. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNa0C7Z6VRH7BJMxHAQGIVAQAgrPegMIZDSJbOhP9Lcy3ez+brMgpyt65 C65ou/pzpiQDNHxXOxovuSKybfE9Eq8tBHJ/Z0lt3WnZaTDYeB8VhZ3SpGFFlJzY +E9MCFW6ppCDm+wbSe+DANRAzm19Ly9hlVeIzKAKg8uiJBT7vtsf6metW/BFmdBy XOp5y+tRoRc= =p6cn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / When not in use, Happy Fun Ball Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / should be returned to its special Prescient Technologies, Inc. / container and kept under I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / refrigeration. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 12:46:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA14953; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA14933 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA13393 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:17:50 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: mailing lists and MTA's References: <199807142218.SAA29689@fonz.micro.lucent.com> <19980715121228.19089.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980715154512.22478.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980715182010.24900.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 15 Jul 1998 15:17:50 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Wed, 15 Jul 98 14:20:09 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 39 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > The fact is that sendmail out-of-the box does more DNS lookups per > recipient than qmail because of header rewriting. The "hearsay" part, > which I clearly identified as such, was the lookup counts for sendmail > and qmail. You clearly identified them that way after I called you on it. If you do not know for certain, do not present someone else's claim as factual information. > Isn't that axe sharp yet, Rich? Not nearly enough. I am sick of qmail's author and proponents slamming sendmail and exim for no reason other than to beat their own chests. I am sick of qmail's author and proponents presenting straw men instead of solid evidence or even annectodes to support their claims of qmail's superiority. I am sick of qmail's author and proponents attempts to push that burden of proof onto sendmail and exim. I am sick of the ignorance that has lead many to believe those claims of qmail's superiority. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNa0AXJ6VRH7BJMxHAQG/0gQAljbSaLBnizMGduXDIk/olYDk8qFm4UJE Y3sAyEsxQnQXbYmasdJpc2ncUJkZ6ZHTfMBILrOAkp6FJRytyOPdZfRkuuej2ux7 ZlXbZLFRbWwgXutWNUr1HDwlNOnix470aHiBm37zJECUQj/KlHbmwl6nreAEQO87 1UJvM/KNolY= =Rmnn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / get away immediately. Seek shelter Prescient Technologies, Inc. / and cover head. I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 12:47:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA16471; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA16464 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 26243 invoked by uid 3995); 15 Jul 1998 19:46:02 -0000 Message-ID: <19980715194602.26242.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <199807151552.LAA04801@cis.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Dave Barr writes: > >> Please share with us your performance measurements. > >It is qmail and its proponents that are claiming that qmail is superior to >sendmail. The burden of proving that claim rests on qmail and its >proponents. In other words, put up or shut up. Rich, it's *your* claim that Dave asked you to back up. Don't try to change the subject. Don't make "X uses less resources than Y" claims you're not willing to substantiate. As for the superiority of qmail, nobody(*) has ever reported decreased performance when switching from sendmail to qmail. Several people have mentioned the use of VERP with qmail and Majordomo to do reliable automatic bounce handling. A couple people have mentioned that qmail allows you to get rid of Majordomo's wrapper and outgoing list aliases. There are other reasons, too. See the other messages in this thread if you want to know what they are. Whether these make qmail superior to sendmail for Majordomo is something each Majordomo admin will have to decide for themselves. -Dave (*) Nobody with a real Internet connection (i.e., better than POTS), that is. Michelle Dick tried to run a large list via qmail at the end of a dialup connection, and not surprisingly, it was slower than sendmail. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 12:54:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA15914; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home.samurai.com (samurai.reptiles.org [198.96.117.149]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA15883; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bryanf@localhost) by home.samurai.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA05538; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:33:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980715153311.Q9184@samurai.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:33:11 -0400 From: Bryan Fullerton To: Russ Allbery , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <199807151552.LAA04801@cis.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i In-Reply-To: ; from Russ Allbery on Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 12:10:50PM -0700 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 12:10:50PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > > If you're honestly curious about this question, please see my FAQ. It > mentions several of the reasons why I think qmail is better than sendmail > for Majordomo; the primary reasons for me are better security and much > easier handling of incoming mail (no need to maintain lots of opaque > aliases), as well as totally avoiding the problem of an unprotected > outgoing alias. Sounds kinda like majordomo2. Are there any qmail people (testing||helping code) majordomo2? Bryan -- http://www.samurai.com http://www.feh.net http://www.icomm.ca "One Code to rule them all, one Code to bind them In the land of Redmond where the Shadows lie." - Joe Thompson in ASR, with apologies to Tolkien From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 13:00:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA17557; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA17532 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 26470 invoked by uid 3995); 15 Jul 1998 20:02:46 -0000 Message-ID: <19980715200246.26469.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: Rich Pieri Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <199807151752.NAA10560@cis.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Dave Barr writes: > >>Rich Pieri wrote: >>> Your logic is flawed, Dave. One instance of sendmail does the same job >>> as 20 instances of qmail-smtp. > >> And you say Dave's logic is flawed? >> How can you possibly support this statement? > >Assuming sender is sending 20 messages to recipient: > >Case 1: sender running sendmail. The situation we were discussing was "sender running qmail, recipient running sendmail vs. recipient running a modular MTA". If you want to change the rules, please do so before stating a conclusion based on the new rules. >Sender generates one SMTP session for all >20 messages. Recipient requires one instance of his MTA to handle the SMTP >session, for a total of 1 instance. > >Case 2: sender running qmail. Sender generates 20 SMTP sessions, one per >message. Recipient requires one instance of his MTA for each SMTP session, >for a total of 20 instances. Note: if recipient is not running a monolithic MTA, it will only need 20 instances of its "smtp server" function. >Both cases deliver 20 messages from sender to recipient. Case 1 has one >instance of sendmail; Case 2 has 20 instances of qmail. There's no such thing as an "instance of qmail". In this case you're talking about instances of qmail-remote. >One instance of sendmail does the same job as 20 instances of qmail. Yes, in this scenario that's true (ignoring the meaninglessness of "instances of qmail"). It also takes the single sendmail about 20 times as long. Which is precisely *why* DJB designed qmail to do parallel delivery. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 13:15:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA17933; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA17906 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA05832 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:08:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Dave Sill cc: Rich Pieri , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <19980715200246.26469.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: > The situation we were discussing was "sender running qmail, recipient > running sendmail vs. recipient running a modular MTA". If you want to > change the rules, please do so before stating a conclusion based on > the new rules. The ENTIRE Discussion as about the rudeness of sender-side qmail. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 13:30:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA18671; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA18657 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 26950 invoked by uid 3995); 15 Jul 1998 20:28:57 -0000 Message-ID: <19980715202857.26949.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: References: <19980715200246.26469.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M >On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: >> The situation we were discussing was "sender running qmail, recipient >> running sendmail vs. recipient running a modular MTA". If you want to >> change the rules, please do so before stating a conclusion based on >> the new rules. > >The ENTIRE Discussion as about the rudeness of sender-side qmail. Right, but I pointed out a few rounds back that one of the reasons it's considered rude (by some) is because the receivers are running monolithic MTA's, and that, if they were running modular MTA's, they'd be better able to handle qmail senders. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 13:39:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA18729; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA18722 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA17144 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:31:42 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <199807151752.NAA10560@cis.ohio-state.edu> <19980715200246.26469.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 15 Jul 1998 16:31:43 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Wed, 15 Jul 98 16:02:45 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 27 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > Yes, in this scenario that's true (ignoring the meaninglessness of > "instances of qmail"). It also takes the single sendmail about 20 > times as long. Which is precisely *why* DJB designed qmail to do > parallel delivery. Substantiate the claim. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNa0RrZ6VRH7BJMxHAQFt0AP/fPSY8OEszA1mUd3a1m5de0+YJGGNi2HP dWcdX1zZanBlLklqNqSTfIpeH0dM/OHs2PvcN4MU7ZE5z+9H7vsrqoNsgUbqidke xU5eU2dp5bi5fpGVUjrKfYvabo7IBtsSIc+ZxhlpNSvxSMe0j1rXsjn0+eE5Syzs /RMeuiVFFJ8= =oogD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / core, which, if exposed due to Prescient Technologies, Inc. / rupture, should not be touched, I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / inhaled, or looked at. From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 13:48:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA18777; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA18765 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA18685 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:33:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807152033.QAA18685@cis.ohio-state.edu> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-reply-to: Your message of "15 Jul 1998 12:28:23 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:33:06 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >It is qmail and its proponents that are claiming that qmail is superior to >sendmail. The burden of proving that claim rests on qmail and its >proponents. In other words, put up or shut up. The performance numbers are there for all to see at qmail.org. DJB has published numerous performance figures, as have others. You were speculating by saying that certain things X did were faster than Y, yet gave no facts to back your claims. --Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 13:51:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA18688; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA18679 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA17042 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:29:58 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <199807151552.LAA04801@cis.ohio-state.edu> <19980715194602.26242.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 15 Jul 1998 16:29:58 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Wed, 15 Jul 98 15:46:01 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 68 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: > Rich, it's *your* claim that Dave asked you to back up. Don't try to > change the subject. Don't make "X uses less resources than Y" claims > you're not willing to substantiate. Maybe you missed it, Dave, but I have been doing exactly that. In fact, I have been using the same numbers you provide to substantiate myself. For example: >>> $ size -4 /var/qmail/bin/qmail-smtpd >>> 36864 + 4096 + 6268 = 47228 >>> $ size -4 /usr/lib/sendmail >>> 458752 + 69632 + 57708 = 586092 And my response: >> 47228 times 20 = 944560. 944560 is larger than 586092, and that does not >> factor the overhead of qmail-smtp forking 20 times to sendmail's forking >> but once. So by your own proof, 20 instances of qmail-smtp consumes more >> system resources than sendmail. There is my proof, Dave. Where is yours? > As for the superiority of qmail, nobody(*) has ever reported decreased > performance when switching from sendmail to qmail. This is the kind of ignorance I am talking about. People *HAVE* reported decreased performance when dealing with qmail. Specifically, when dealing with sites, such as AOL since that has already been specifically mentioned, which receive many copies of a single message when sendmail or exim would deliver but one. Specifically, when dealing with heavilly loaded networks, where initating 20 SMTP connections does nothing more than contribute to congestion and packet loss. [...] > (*) Nobody with a real Internet connection (i.e., better than POTS), AOL, MSN, Prodigy Internet, Erols Internet, UUNet and its subsidiaries, RCN and its subsidiaries, Hotmail, Yahoo mail, Netscape mail. All have T1 network connections or better; most have several T1s or better. All are subject to exactly the kind of flooding that qmail's author and proponents, yourself included, laud as its greatest strength. What MTAs they use are irrelevant; qmail's concurrency requires that an instance of the MTA be forked for each individual message when sendmail or exim will cause the recipient to fork but one instance. And as the numbers you provided show, 1 instance of sendmail is smaller than 20 instances of qmail-smtp by about half. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNa0RQp6VRH7BJMxHAQELqgP6AnnHURTca8cgl3yFCiZgUwEAqztFaYWz AmKhFse14kKlqX3wAulfxhI+ZeiMObVfEx4x7IS12M5Mq6z5nR/fLYC1I4lx3dir qYJ+5MddCQX6JuU4Rk8xY0RmEEA2US3RAfMLllKcLhVzxkWfGdJJtLTzn7smQJVE qWaX6FOYr6E= =1udn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Caution: Happy Fun Ball may Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / suddenly accelerate to dangerous Prescient Technologies, Inc. / speeds. I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 14:00:21 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA19831; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA19816 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from East.Sun.COM ([129.148.1.241]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id NAA05991 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:52:53 -0700 Received: from suneast.East.Sun.COM by East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id QAA09419; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:52:49 -0400 Received: from ippon.East.Sun.COM by suneast.East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA01561; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:52:50 -0400 Received: from ippon by ippon.East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA13487; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:52:50 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:52:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Allan Ku - Desktop Hardware Engineering Reply-To: Allan Ku - Desktop Hardware Engineering Subject: bloody MTA's To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: hGOq/zpnplXM03iZE1Hwrw== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.1.0 CDE Version 1.1 SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u sparc Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Guys: I will very gladly create an alias call "which-MTA-rules" for you guys if you are willing to take your discussion over there instead of on this alias. A few guys have pointed out that this debate has gone too far out of the purpose of this alias and for too long (about 40+ emails). I'm starting to get a little sick of deleting these messages. Please, for the love of Pete, take your discussion somewhere else. :) I'm starting to think maybe I should start an argument on whether Clintons secret agents should testify in front of the grand jury... ;) --Allan From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 14:09:33 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA19207; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rzdspc1.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (rzdspc1.informatik.uni-hamburg.de [134.100.9.61]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA19159 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rzdspc2.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (zierke@rzdspc2.informatik.uni-hamburg.de [134.100.9.62]) by rzdspc1.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA22578 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:40:55 +0200 (MET DST) From: Reinhard Zierke Received: (from zierke@localhost) by rzdspc2.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15392 for majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:40:55 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199807152040.WAA15392@rzdspc2.informatik.uni-hamburg.de> Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:40:55 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've got enough of this holy war concerning sendmail vs qmail... Good bye, I'll try this list back again in some months. Reinhard (an otherwise quite satisfied majordomo user) -- Reinhard Zierke Universitaet Hamburg, FB Informatik zierke@informatik.uni-hamburg.de Vogt-Koelln-Strasse 30, D-22527 Hamburg postmaster@informatik.uni-hamburg.de Tel.: (040) 5494-2295/2276 Fax: -2241 From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 14:16:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA20528; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA20470 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA19181 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:03:25 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) References: <19980715200246.26469.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980715202857.26949.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 15 Jul 1998 17:03:26 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill's message of "Wed, 15 Jul 98 16:28:56 EST" Message-ID: Lines: 30 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Sill writes: >> The ENTIRE Discussion as about the rudeness of sender-side qmail. > Right, but I pointed out a few rounds back that one of the reasons > it's considered rude (by some) is because the receivers are running > monolithic MTA's, And as I pointed out a few rounds back, forking 20 nearly simultaneous copies of qmail-smtp incurs an instantaneous load 20 times greater than forking a single copy of qmail-smtp. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNa0ZHZ6VRH7BJMxHAQEOoQQAjpOWfzb8AKdw5Kq81q4DZhH3Tr9iT07D ffsfmGP4Seq3xk2I2cYETA7AUxjeZ5RSjyiqoUsAZ34/+sfAihrvSj7ql6ukh0IH LlKuZXFPkjOF0FY0A7iZLmFwLiLLpe9H4EavVwtgqGoRqTOcSgpM85qiTzC47xnx /WSREmnydr4= =+2t9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / types of skin. Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 14:32:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA21913; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from londo.prescienttech.com (londo.prescienttech.com [199.103.216.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA21906 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gkar.prescienttech.com. (gkar.prescienttech.com [111.17.19.1]) by londo.prescienttech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA22382 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:30:30 -0400 From: Rich Pieri To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) -- My Final Word References: <199807152033.QAA18685@cis.ohio-state.edu> X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 15 Jul 1998 17:30:30 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Barr's message of "Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:33:06 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 49 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.24/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dave Barr writes: > The performance numbers are there for all to see at qmail.org. > DJB has published numerous performance figures, as have others. Yes, I have seen them. Yes, under the conditions those figures were generated, qmail is superior to sendmail. Those conditions ignore real-world factors such as heavilly loaded networks and large numbers of recipients at a single site, such as aol.com or hotmail.com. Under those conditions, qmail's concurrent delivery method is a detriment. If sendmail or exim must deliver a message to 1000 users at, say, hotmail.com, it will make one SMTP connection to a hotmail.com MX and transmit one copy of that message to the MX. The MTA on the MX will look at the recipient list and "clone" the message for each recipient. If qmail must deliver the same message to the same 1000 hotmail users, it must create 1000 SMTP connections, with all the associated overhead, both on the network and on the remote server. It will then transmit 1000 copies of that message, one per SMTP connection. While all this is happening the hotmail MX must fork 1000 copies of its MTA, one for each SMTP connection qmail creates, to process each copy of the message. qmail requires approximately 1000 times the network and computing resources to deliver this one message as either sendmail or exim, not counting resources spent retransmitting lost packets. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNa0fdZ6VRH7BJMxHAQEyFwP/aJiTqZPpvDOD1kCRX9Agzhg/kSigrLlv Y0tDfv3IdaamrJs253QzJdU6P5yvSirTZQGdE8HJguiUhEiqwgsTZq/kTSLpjubA XTkKflkX8JLvXkmdm1Q8jRZ0f8qkcmpwN5eoWHON0TCdGezYbr2XLCneouQ+38yv k35VmfJKc44= =OPTj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri / Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain Sysmonster, Unix Wrangler / types of skin. Prescient Technologies, Inc. / I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC / From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 14:41:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA21055; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA21027 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA22561 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:11:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807152111.RAA22561@cis.ohio-state.edu> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-reply-to: Your message of "15 Jul 1998 14:36:16 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:10:56 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>> Your logic is flawed, Dave. One instance of sendmail does the same job >>> as 20 instances of qmail-smtp. > >> And you say Dave's logic is flawed? >> How can you possibly support this statement? > >Assuming sender is sending 20 messages to recipient: We're not talking senders, we're talking recipients. case 1: receiver runs sendmail, and forks either 20 copies. Since sendmail is large and monolithic, you have 20 copies vying not only for CPU, but paging, as well as all trying to do locking, etc. case 2: receiver runs qmail, and 20 copies of qmail-smtpd get spawned. Since qmail is small and modular, far less real (and virtual) memory get used. Mail messages are passed on through the system and those 20 small programs quickly die off. The 20 messages are processed as by some number of qmail-locals -- however many as needed according to whatever the current demand is. The "smaller amount of RAM" is not made up. There's a long line of qmail users who will tell you that qmail uses far less ram and resources than sendmail. The only thing that is an issue for big sites is disk bandwidth. (this is a specific goal of VMailer that he wants to improve upon). --Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 15:03:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA23090; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nanguo.chalmers.com.au (gateway.chalmers.com.au [203.1.96.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA23073 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chalmers.com.au (carbon.chalmers.com.au [203.1.96.26]) by nanguo.chalmers.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10140; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:03:07 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <35AD26F4.DF5F00F4@chalmers.com.au> Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:02:28 +1000 From: Robert Chalmers Reply-To: robert@chalmers.com.au Organization: chalmers.com.au X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LIDANCR@aol.com CC: "majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: Re: How do I make the list messages show the list address References: <199807151440.WAA25208@relay13.jaring.my> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk LIDANCR@aol.com wrote: > > > How do I make messages addressed to the list, show the list as the return > > address? and not my own address? > > > > > > You can't do that when you send to a discussion group. > Accountability of every posting is important to avoid > misunderstanding in group. Therefore, I believe no one is > able to send anonymous email. > No, that's not what I meant. Sorry for the confusion. I fixed it anyway. The reply_to variable now holds the list address, and the mail still shows me in the From: address field, From: robert@chalmers.com.au Reply To: realav@chalmers.com.au no problems... bob > Anyone care to elaborate? > > Benjamin > Jokes Make My Day (JMMD) List > ======================================== > Receive your FREE subscription NOW!!! > Just send an email to > subscribe-jmmd@reply.net > ======================================== -- Support Whirled Peas. Business in China? China House robert@chalmers.com.au ph:61 7 49440357 fx:61 7 49578425 #11252938 http://www.chalmers.com.au/ChinaHouse/Business/webposition http://www.chalmers.com.au/ChinaHouse/Business/net2phone.html http://www.chalmers.com.au/ChinaHouse/Business/vpay/vpay.html From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 15:15:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA23716; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA23700 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA07448 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:11:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Dave Sill cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <19980715202857.26949.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: > Right, but I pointed out a few rounds back that one of the reasons > it's considered rude (by some) is because the receivers are running > monolithic MTA's, and that, if they were running modular MTA's, they'd > be better able to handle qmail senders. "My solution is optimized to talk to my solution, and is rude to others to compel them to convert to my solution." -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 15:20:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA23943; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id PAA23934 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28582 invoked by uid 3995); 15 Jul 1998 22:17:59 -0000 Message-ID: <19980715221759.28581.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) -- My Final Word In-Reply-To: References: <199807152033.QAA18685@cis.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >If qmail must deliver the same message to the same 1000 hotmail >users, ... Chuckle. Did you know that Hotmail uses qmail. :-) -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 15:30:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA24776; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA24769 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA06845 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:51:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Dave Sill cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: <19980715202857.26949.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: > Right, but I pointed out a few rounds back that one of the reasons > it's considered rude (by some) is because the receivers are running > monolithic MTA's, and that, if they were running modular MTA's, they'd > be better able to handle qmail senders. "My comments are only rude if you don't agree with me," in other words. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 15:41:44 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA24483; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsn.org (gsn.org [199.106.67.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA24466 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from erica (clubnet.gsn.org [206.126.141.248]) by gsn.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA02485; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:21:16 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Erica Zubkoff" To: , Cc: Subject: RE: How do I make the list messages show the list address Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:21:50 -0700 Message-ID: <00e901bdb03e$f627db30$0100000a@erica> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <35AD26F4.DF5F00F4@chalmers.com.au> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > -----Original Message----- > From: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM > [mailto:majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM]On Behalf Of Robert > Chalmers > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 1998 3:02 PM > To: LIDANCR@aol.com > Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM > Subject: Re: How do I make the list messages show the list address > > > LIDANCR@aol.com wrote: > > > > > How do I make messages addressed to the list, show the list > as the return > > > address? and not my own address? > > > > > > > > > > You can't do that when you send to a discussion group. > > Accountability of every posting is important to avoid > > misunderstanding in group. Therefore, I believe no one is > > able to send anonymous email. > > > > No, that's not what I meant. Sorry for the confusion. I fixed it > anyway. The > reply_to variable now holds the list address, and the mail still > shows me in > the From: address field, > > From: robert@chalmers.com.au > Reply To: realav@chalmers.com.au > > no problems... > > bob Bob, Just a word of advice from someone who unfortunately learned the hard way! :) I was faced with a listowner *insisting* they wanted the reply_to set to the listname. I finally gave in and complied and was suddenly faced with infinite mailing loops when list members had their auto-responder/vacation programs replying to the mailing list. The only work-around on this one, if you must have the reply-to set to listname, is to at very least set the list to moderated so loops can be avoided. -Erica __________ http://www.gsn.org ____________ Global SchoolNet Foundation Erica Zubkoff System Administrator http://www.gsn.org/who/team/ez.bio.html erica@gsn.org P.O. Box 2709 BUS: (760)249-5140 Wrightwood,CA FAX: (760)249-1220 92397-2709 ___________________________________________ From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 15:45:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA25243; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from troll.uunet.ca (troll.uunet.ca [205.150.160.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA25223 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by troll.uunet.ca with SMTP id <28671-13083>; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:43:35 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:43:25 -0400 From: Michael Goumans To: Dave Sill cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) -- My Final Word In-Reply-To: <19980715221759.28581.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: > I apologize in advance for this irrelevant message. I swear I won't > reply to Rich again. This is just too good. > > Rich Pieri wrote: > >If qmail must deliver the same message to the same 1000 hotmail > >users, ... > > Chuckle. Did you know that Hotmail uses qmail. :-) > > -Dave > 220 m5.hotmail.com Server SMTP ready at Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:42:42 +0100 help 241-Copyright 1997 Hotmail Corp. 241- 241-The following commands are recognized: 241- helo, mail, rcpt, data, send, soml, saml, rset, vrfy, expn, help 241- noop, quit, turn, onex, tick, emal, esnd, esom, esam, evfy 241- 241-The normal sequence is: helo (mail rcpt+ data)+ quit. 241- 241-This mailer always accepts 8-bit and binary message data. 241- 241-For local information contact: postmaster@m5.hotmail.com 241 SMTP server comments and bug reports to: zmhacks@cs.toronto.edu That looks like ZMailer to me. I promised i wouldnt get into this, but ZMailer is our MTA of choice. Wouldnt have it any other way Mike Mike Goumans mgoumans@uunet.ca Unix Systems Manager 416-216-5137(tel) UUnet Canada 416-719-1984(pgr) From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 15:51:28 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA25247; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from troll.uunet.ca (troll.uunet.ca [205.150.160.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA25227 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by troll.uunet.ca with SMTP id <28671-14536>; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:43:26 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:43:25 -0400 From: Michael Goumans To: Dave Sill cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) -- My Final Word In-Reply-To: <19980715221759.28581.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Dave Sill wrote: > I apologize in advance for this irrelevant message. I swear I won't > reply to Rich again. This is just too good. > > Rich Pieri wrote: > >If qmail must deliver the same message to the same 1000 hotmail > >users, ... > > Chuckle. Did you know that Hotmail uses qmail. :-) > > -Dave > 220 m5.hotmail.com Server SMTP ready at Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:42:42 +0100 help 241-Copyright 1997 Hotmail Corp. 241- 241-The following commands are recognized: 241- helo, mail, rcpt, data, send, soml, saml, rset, vrfy, expn, help 241- noop, quit, turn, onex, tick, emal, esnd, esom, esam, evfy 241- 241-The normal sequence is: helo (mail rcpt+ data)+ quit. 241- 241-This mailer always accepts 8-bit and binary message data. 241- 241-For local information contact: postmaster@m5.hotmail.com 241 SMTP server comments and bug reports to: zmhacks@cs.toronto.edu That looks like ZMailer to me. I promised i wouldnt get into this, but ZMailer is our MTA of choice. Wouldnt have it any other way Mike Mike Goumans mgoumans@uunet.ca Unix Systems Manager 416-216-5137(tel) UUnet Canada 416-719-1984(pgr) From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 16:00:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA26315; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id PAA26263 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 29218 invoked by uid 3995); 15 Jul 1998 22:58:11 -0000 Message-ID: <19980715225811.29217.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Sill To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) -- My Final Word In-Reply-To: References: <19980715221759.28581.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >That looks like ZMailer to me. Yes, but, e.g.: Message-ID: <19980715220809.14570.qmail@hotmail.com> They use zmailer for incoming, qmail for outgoing. -Dave From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 16:17:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA26455; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home.samurai.com (samurai.reptiles.org [198.96.117.149]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA26448 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bryanf@localhost) by home.samurai.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id TAA23459; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:00:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980715190026.S10807@samurai.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:00:26 -0400 From: Bryan Fullerton To: Michael Goumans Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) -- My Final Word References: <19980715221759.28581.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Michael Goumans on Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 06:43:25PM -0400 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 06:43:25PM -0400, Michael Goumans wrote: > 241- > 241-For local information contact: postmaster@m5.hotmail.com > 241 SMTP server comments and bug reports to: zmhacks@cs.toronto.edu > > That looks like ZMailer to me. > > I promised i wouldnt get into this, but ZMailer is our MTA of choice. > > Wouldnt have it any other way And that has *nothing* to do with the original author of ZMailer being a bigwig at uunet.ca for many years, right? Bryan -- http://www.samurai.com http://www.feh.net http://www.icomm.ca "One Code to rule them all, one Code to bind them In the land of Redmond where the Shadows lie." - Joe Thompson in ASR, with apologies to Tolkien From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 16:23:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA26389; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smailva1.slma.com (smailva1.slma.com [167.104.32.43]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA26380 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snotesre08.slma.com by smailva1.slma.com; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:56:57 -0400 Received: by slma.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 85256642.007DF6B2 ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:55:51 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SALLIEMAE From: "Andrew Witt" To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Message-ID: <85256642.007A1C5E.00@slma.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:56:43 -0400 Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > We're not talking senders, we're talking recipients. So, you are talking past each other. Let's combine the comparisons: case 1: sender's MTA is sendmail; recipient's MTA is sendmail case 2: sender's MTA is sendmail; recipient's MTA is qmail case 3: sender's MTA is qmail; recipient's MTA is sendmail case 4: sender's MTA is qmail; recipient's MTA is qmail The sendmail proponents seem to be saying that case 1 is ideal. The qmail proponents seem to be saying that case 4 is ideal. Deciding that would certainly be a "my MTA is better than your MTA" argument. (Don't quote me - I don't have benchmarks - but as has been observed already many times, which MTA is the best depends at least somewhat on what your needs are. No benchmarks are going to settle the issue of whose needs are more 'relevant' to the 'real world', because everyone's little piece of the 'real world' is different.) I think we can all agree that case 3 is just plain ugly; I think we can all agree that IF the sending site is using something like qmail, then it is MUCH better for the recipient to also be running something like qmail, which will fork off a small module for each session. The sendmail proponents seem to be saying that it is rude for a qmail MTA to not take into account the fact that many recipient's sites pay dearly for trying to make a 'monolithic' MTA act like a 'modular' MTA. When the response from the qmail proponents is "Its your tough luck that you happen to be running a monolithic MTA", that seems to reinforce the idea that qmail folks are not concerned about how rude they are perceive to be. IMHO, cooperation is more important than performance on a large, complex, unruly system that (in spite of all that) strives to be an *open* system. The Internet is all of these things. So my take is that qmail could do more to be friendly to ALL MTAs that it might encounter. Could it detect when it is sending to a 'monolithic' MTA, and in those cases, establish just 1 SMTP session? Also, it has been pointed out several times that some things that some folks find objectionable about qmail are really weaknesses in the protocol, not qmail's fault. Well, in recognizing the weaknesses in the protocol, isn't it wiser to write an MTA that AVOIDS turning those weaknesses into problems? If the protocols are fragile in certain areas, then handle those areas gingerly. Since the RFCs cannot cover every possible situation, and since no MTA is best for every situation, it is paramount (and tantamount) to effective Internet e-mail that MTAs go out of their way to cooperate with whatever else is out there. - Andrew From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 16:40:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA27425; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy1-bsb.gns.com.br (srv1-bsb.GNS.com.br [200.239.56.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id QAA27391 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28937 invoked by uid 1002); 15 Jul 1998 23:18:04 -0000 Received: from srv1-bsb.gns.com.br (200.239.56.1) by proxy-bsb.gns.com.br with SMTP; 15 Jul 1998 23:18:04 -0000 Received: (from lioux@localhost) by srv1-bsb.gns.com.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28933 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:18:03 -0300 (EST) From: Mario Sergio Fujikawa Ferreira Message-Id: <199807152318.UAA28933@srv1-bsb.gns.com.br> Subject: Was MTA's To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:18:03 -0300 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Guys, I am particularly finding this thread very interesting but I don't know if others would agree. Could we move this thread to another more suitable mailing list like list-managers@greatcircle.com? Just a suggestion. If ppl want to keep it here, it's just fine by me. My 2 cents, Mario Ferreira -- Mario S. F. Ferreira System Administrator/Consulting @ GNS Email(no _s): _L_ioux(at)g_ns.com.br | PGP key/contact info: finger Email Global Network Solutions Tec | http://www.GNS.com.br/ | # +55 061 3272626 FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 16:46:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA28254; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id QAA28209 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from East.Sun.COM ([129.148.1.241]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id QAA16292; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:40:32 -0700 Received: from suneast.East.Sun.COM by East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id TAA20325; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:40:30 -0400 Received: from ippon.East.Sun.COM by suneast.East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA04165; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:40:30 -0400 Received: from ippon by ippon.East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA15700; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:40:30 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:40:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Allan Ku - Desktop Hardware Engineering Reply-To: Allan Ku - Desktop Hardware Engineering Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM, zierke@informatik.uni-hamburg.de Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: SPb4OGfLpN5/kMHtDDO5aQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.1.0 CDE Version 1.1 SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u sparc Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'll second that. Some people just dont know when to stop. Good-bye kids-- it had been great. Will be back sometimes later. > From: Reinhard Zierke > Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) > To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > I've got enough of this holy war concerning sendmail vs qmail... > Good bye, I'll try this list back again in some months. > > Reinhard (an otherwise quite satisfied majordomo user) > > -- > Reinhard Zierke Universitaet Hamburg, FB Informatik > zierke@informatik.uni-hamburg.de Vogt-Koelln-Strasse 30, D-22527 Hamburg > postmaster@informatik.uni-hamburg.de Tel.: (040) 5494-2295/2276 Fax: -2241 From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 17:30:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA29956; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA29945 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA19132 ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:24:56 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:15:04 -0700 To: Daniel Garcia , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Bandwidth control? Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I have a rather peculiar need. I have a bunch of moderate to high traffic > lists that I host, however, my mail server shares a 67k line with the > rest of my machines at home, and i'd like to be able to make use of >some of myu > connection without it being swamped by mail traffic. > > So - what i'm looking for is some form of throttleing solution - where I can > say that I don't want my mail delivery exceeding a rate of, say 20k/second. Well, I'm sure qmail will (down! down! *stomp* *stomp* *die!* *die!*) Seriously.... I've talked about this a few tomes on the list recently. You can do this nicely with sendmail. The trick: 1) figure out how many concurrent sendmails you feel comfortable running at one time without overloading your link and/or server. 2) Set up your lists so they queue instead of deliver immediately (using the sendmail -ODeliveryMode=queueonly option, either on the command line or via a separate sendmail.cf on list mail) 3) Instead of using "-qxxxx" on the sendmail daemon, use a cron job to spawn sendmails to handle the queue. that cron job cna check the number of extant sendmails, and not spawn more if you're already near the number you came up with in (1) above. That way, you throttle sendmail -- it won't go over the limit you impose, because the cron shell script stops spawning them. you don't have burst delivery problems, because your list daemon simply drops them off for sendmail to worry about later, instead of trying to deliver each batch immediately. And it's not difficult to do, once you take a look at it -- it's basically some really minor tweaks to the sendmail incoarnation (a one line change to the majordomo file, and/or a tweak to bulk_mailer's source code if you use that, or if you prefer, simply add the option to the colling line for bulk_mailer), a tweak to your startup scripts to start sendmail as only -bd, and then builing the cron job. Here's the perl script I use. Your mileage WILL vary, at least as far as # of sendmails to run... (FWIW, my net link is a 56K link.) --- #!/usr/local/bin/perl # if there are under $faster sendmails, spawn more quickly. # if there are over $max, don't spawn. $faster = 25; $max = 30; @proglist = ("/usr/lib/sendmail", "-q"); @sendmails = `ps -ef | grep "[0-9] sendmail:"`; $sendmails = @sendmails; #print "Number of running sendmails is $sendmails\n"; if ($sendmails < $faster) { &doSendmail; sleep (5); &doSendmail; sleep (5); &doSendmail; sleep (5); &doSendmail; } elsif ($sendmails < $max) { &doSendmail; } else { # do nothing } sub doSendmail { $retval = fork(); if ($retval == 0) { exec (@proglist); } } -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 19:15:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA01523; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsulaw.gsu.edu (gsulaw.Gsu.EDU [131.96.159.141]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA01516 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (lawppw@localhost) by gsulaw.gsu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA18017 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:07:57 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:07:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Patrick Wiseman To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Setting Up a Moderated List In-Reply-To: <35aeb1f5.3409494@world.std.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote: :Hey Roger B.A. Klorese! I got your message about Re: Setting Up a :Moderated List: [...] :; Don't speak authoritatively when you're not sure, which you obviously :; aren't. : :Don't be an asshole when you don't have to be, and there is no need to :be here. I guess that other thread has caused people to start getting rude. Roger was right, and you were wrong. There's no need to call him names. Can we please keep it civil at least? Patrick From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 19:45:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA02077; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from troll.uunet.ca (troll.uunet.ca [205.150.160.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA02070 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by troll.uunet.ca with SMTP id <28670-2300>; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:39:29 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:39:25 -0400 From: Michael Goumans To: Bryan Fullerton cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) -- My Final Word In-Reply-To: <19980715190026.S10807@samurai.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Bryan Fullerton wrote: > On Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 06:43:25PM -0400, Michael Goumans wrote: > > 241- > > 241-For local information contact: postmaster@m5.hotmail.com > > 241 SMTP server comments and bug reports to: zmhacks@cs.toronto.edu > > > > That looks like ZMailer to me. > > > > I promised i wouldnt get into this, but ZMailer is our MTA of choice. > > > > Wouldnt have it any other way > > And that has *nothing* to do with the original author of ZMailer being a > bigwig at uunet.ca for many years, right? > > Bryan > > -- heh. of course. I must admit i hadnt even thought about using it before, but it works pretty well. Mike From majordomo-users-owner Wed Jul 15 23:00:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA04544; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home.samurai.com (samurai.reptiles.org [198.96.117.149]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA04537 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bryanf@localhost) by home.samurai.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id CAA18118; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:03:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980716020302.A17289@samurai.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:03:02 -0400 From: Bryan Fullerton To: Michael Goumans Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) -- My Final Word References: <19980715190026.S10807@samurai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Michael Goumans on Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 10:39:25PM -0400 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 10:39:25PM -0400, Michael Goumans wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Bryan Fullerton wrote: > > > > And that has *nothing* to do with the original author of ZMailer being a > > bigwig at uunet.ca for many years, right? > > heh. of course. I must admit i hadnt even thought about using it before, > but it works pretty well. Just to clarify, I don't have anything bad to say about ZMailer - I've never used it. Just wanted to point out that sometimes there are political reasons for which mail server gets used as well as technical reasons. :) (FWIW, my politics tend towards sendmail) Bryan -- http://www.samurai.com http://www.feh.net http://www.icomm.ca "One Code to rule them all, one Code to bind them In the land of Redmond where the Shadows lie." - Joe Thompson in ASR, with apologies to Tolkien From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 16 04:00:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA10586; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 03:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from melona.complex.is (melona.complex.is [193.4.210.100]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA10579 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 03:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from einari@localhost) by melona.complex.is (8.8.5/ISnet/Comp-97) id KAA01731; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:42:58 GMT From: einari@complex.is (Einar Indridason) Message-Id: <199807161042.KAA01731@melona.complex.is> Subject: Re: MTA's (was: VERY large mailing lists.) In-Reply-To: from "Patrick Wiseman" at "Jul 14, 98 05:02:47 pm" To: lawppw@gsulaw.gsu.edu (Patrick Wiseman) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:42:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > :Let's just keep it short shall we - this is: > : > : majordomo-users@greatcircle.com > : > :Yes the mail system is important in this but it's *not* majordomo you're > :talking about here and I think we can safely say the discussion has been > :given a fair airing in this forum. Take it elsewhere. > > For what it's worth, I disagree. majordomo-users INCLUDE system > administrators (of which I am, sort of, one). We're going through some > transitions at our site at the moment, one of which might (if I'm > persuaded) include changing our MTA. This discussion, while it's been a > little testy at times, has been invaluable to me in figuring out what some > of the issues are. It continues to be informative, IMO, and it continues > to be relevant to the use of majordomo. *groan* I have been browsing through this subject on the majordomo-users@greatcircle.com list. Please, people, please take this discussion about qmail vs. sendmail vs. exim vs. ... somewhere else. We might need to start a new list about the plusses and minuses of each MTA, but this discussion has gone on for too long (IMHO) on majordomo-users. It is obvious that a "Holy War" has been started :-( And like all "Holy Wars" those who have a different opinion from the "correct opinion" are impossible to "convert" to the "correct" option. In some ways the qmail crowd is correct, in some ways the qmail crowd is wrong. So is the sendmail crowd and so is the exim crowd. There are strong *and* weak points to *all* those systems. Please, people, let it rest! We have been hearing the same arguments again and again and again and again. How many people have been convinced to change their opinion as a result of those discussions? What will we see next on majordomo-users? "My editor is better than your"? -- einari@complex.is From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 16 07:44:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA12934; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 07:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailman.lanl.gov (mailman.lanl.gov [128.165.5.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA12927 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 07:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x-mail.lanl.gov (x-mail.lanl.gov [128.165.3.111]) by mailman.lanl.gov (8.9.0/8.9.0/(cic-5, 5/21/98)) with ESMTP id IAA22789 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:44:17 -0600 Received: from localhost by x-mail.lanl.gov (8.9.0/8.9.0/(cic-5, 5/21/98)) with SMTP id IAA15262 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:25:28 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: x-mail.lanl.gov: res owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:25:28 -0600 (MDT) From: Bob Stewart Reply-To: Bob Stewart To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: majorcool question Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hope this is the right group to ask... I have just finished installing MajorCool on our listserver and find that the browse function does not work. This is MajorCool version 1.3.0 and Majordomo version 1.94.4. When the "go" button is pushed to browse the subscribed lists, (I use netscape), Netscape displays the clock for 5-10 minutes then I get a message that the "document contains no data". I assume this means that no lists were found that I am subscribed to, (I am subscribed to many lists). Same happens when browsing unsubscribed lists... Modify, create, and delete all seem to do what I want them to do. Thanks Bob Stewart (res@lanl.gov) mail stop B255 phone = 505-667-9847 ta3, sm1498, room 247 http://www.lanl.gov/users/u079374/public_html From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 16 08:30:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA13737; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-gw.BayNetworks.COM (ns5.baynetworks.com [194.133.90.101]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA13730 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.BayNetworks.COM ([132.245.135.115]) by smtp-gw.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11990 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:26:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from lobster1.corpeast.Baynetworks.com (ns2.corpeast.baynetworks.com [192.32.72.17]) by mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA19016 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:24:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bl-mail2.corpeast.BayNetworks.com (bl-mail2-nf0) by lobster1.corpeast.Baynetworks.com (4.1/BNET-97/04/29-S) id AA06260; Thu, 16 Jul 98 11:24:28 EDT for majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Received: from rbyers.corpeast.baynetworks.com ([132.245.151.165]) by bl-mail2.corpeast.BayNetworks.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0529 ID# 0-13458) with SMTP id AAA12200 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:24:23 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980716112423.00864de0@bl-mail2.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: byersr@bl-mail2.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:24:24 -0400 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Robert_Byers@BayNetworks.COM (Robert Byers) Subject: wilma reindex does nothing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I'm trying to get wilma 1.4 running. I've got solaris 2.5.1, apache 1.2.6, glimpse 3.6 and mhonarc 2.2.0. I've followed all the steps in the wilma 1.4 README file, down to the wilma_reindex step, which seems to run without any syntax or functional errors. However, it claims there are "no new messages" (since this is the first invocation of wilma_reindex, the *should* be _some_ new messages) Also, when I browse http://myserver/cgi-bin/wilma/net_mgmt_list, the form comes up fine, and it even lets me browse the raw archives. But when I do a search, it never is able to match anything (this being consistent with the result of "no new messages" during the reindex process). Here is what I get from wilma_reindex: # cd /usr/local/etc/httpd/cgi-bin # ./wilma_reindex net_mgmt_list mkdir 9803, 0755 mkdir 9804, 0755 Re-incing net_mgmt_list.9803 net_mgmt_list.9804 /usr/local/bin/mhonarc -add -rcfile /usr/local/etc/apache_1.2.6/cgi-bin/.wilma/net_mgmt_list.rc -outdir 9803 net_mgmt_list.9803 Reading resource file: /usr/local/etc/apache_1.2.6/cgi-bin/.wilma/net_mgmt_list.rc ... Adding messages to 9803 Reading net_mgmt_list.9803 No new messages /usr/local/bin/mhonarc -add -rcfile /usr/local/etc/apache_1.2.6/cgi-bin/.wilma/net_mgmt_list.rc -outdir 9804 net_mgmt_list.9804 Reading resource file: /usr/local/etc/apache_1.2.6/cgi-bin/.wilma/net_mgmt_list.rc ... Adding messages to 9804 Reading net_mgmt_list.9804 No new messages /usr/local/bin/glimpseindex -f -o -H index -M 50 -z 9803 9804 Using 485451 words as threshold before merge This is glimpseindex version 3.6, 1996. Indexing "/usr/local/etc/apache_1.2.6/htdocs/net_mgmt_list.w3archive/9803" ... Indexing "/usr/local/etc/apache_1.2.6/htdocs/net_mgmt_list.w3archive/9804" ... Size of files being indexed = 0 B, Total #of files = 0 Index-directory: "/usr/local/etc/apache_1.2.6/htdocs/net_mgmt_list.w3archive/index" Glimpse-files created here: -r--r--r-- 1 other 36 Jul 16 1998 .glimpse_exclude -rw------- 1 other 2 Jul 16 1998 .glimpse_filenames -rw------- 1 other 0 Jul 16 1998 .glimpse_filenames_index -rw------- 1 other 0 Jul 16 1998 .glimpse_filetimes -r--r--r-- 1 other 54 Jul 16 1998 .glimpse_filters -rw------- 1 other 8 Jul 16 1998 .glimpse_index -rw------- 1 other 163 Jul 16 1998 .glimpse_messages -rw------- 1 other 0 Jul 16 1998 .glimpse_partitions -rw------- 1 other 121 Jul 16 1998 .glimpse_statistics -rw------- 1 other 262144 Jul 16 1998 .glimpse_turbo My guess is I've got everything set up for mhonarc OK, but maybe some glimpse configuration is pointing to the wrong location? Maybe one of ARC_DIR, ARC_URL or ARC_MBOX is wrong in mylist.cf? I have them set to: LIST = net_mgmt_list ARC_DIR = /usr/local/etc/httpd/htdocs/$LIST.w3archive ARC_URL = /$LIST.w3archive ARC_MBOX = /usr/local/etc/httpd/htdocs/$LIST.archive The contents of /usr/local/etc/httpd/htdocs/net_mgmt_list.w3archive are: total 3036 drwxr-xr-x 5 root other 512 Jul 16 10:51 ./ drwxr-xr-x 7 bin bin 512 May 5 11:13 ../ drwxr-xr-x 2 root other 512 Jul 16 10:51 9803/ drwxr-xr-x 2 root other 512 Jul 16 10:51 9804/ drwxr-xr-x 2 root other 512 Jul 16 10:51 index/ -rw-r--r-- 1 root other 391 May 6 09:39 info.html -rw-r--r-- 1 root other 630930 May 5 11:13 net_mgmt_list.9803 -rw-r--r-- 1 root other 887678 May 5 11:13 net_mgmt_list.9804 The contents of /usr/local/etc/httpd/htdocs/net_mgmt_list.w3archive/index are: total 544 drwxr-xr-x 2 root other 512 Jul 16 10:51 ./ drwxr-xr-x 5 root other 512 Jul 16 10:51 ../ -rw-r--r-- 1 root other 36 Jul 16 10:48 .glimpse_exclude -rw-r--r-- 1 root other 2 Jul 16 10:51 .glimpse_filenames -rw-r--r-- 1 root other 0 Jul 16 10:51 .glimpse_filenames_index -rw-r--r-- 1 root other 0 Jul 16 10:51 .glimpse_filetimes -rw-r--r-- 1 root other 54 Jul 16 10:48 .glimpse_filters -rw-r--r-- 1 root other 8 Jul 16 10:51 .glimpse_index -rw-r--r-- 1 root other 163 Jul 16 10:51 .glimpse_messages -rw-r--r-- 1 root other 0 Jul 16 10:51 .glimpse_partitions -rw-r--r-- 1 root other 121 Jul 16 10:51 .glimpse_statistics -rw-r--r-- 1 root other 262144 Jul 16 10:51 .glimpse_turbo The contents of /usr/local/etc/httpd/htdocs/net_mgmt_list.w3archive/9803 are: total 4 drwxr-xr-x 2 root other 512 Jul 16 10:51 ./ drwxr-xr-x 5 root other 512 Jul 16 10:51 ../ The contents of /usr/local/etc/httpd/htdocs/net_mgmt_list.w3archive/9804 are: total 4 drwxr-xr-x 2 root other 512 Jul 16 10:51 ./ drwxr-xr-x 5 root other 512 Jul 16 10:51 ../ The contents of /usr/local/etc/httpd/htdocs/net_mgmt_list.archive are: total 3028 drwxr-xr-x 2 root other 512 May 5 11:13 ./ drwxr-xr-x 7 bin bin 512 May 5 11:13 ../ -rw-r--r-- 1 root other 630930 May 5 11:13 net_mgmt_list.9803 -rw-r--r-- 1 root other 887678 May 5 11:13 net_mgmt_list.9804 Thanks in advance, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -Bob Byers Bay Networks, Inc. Phone: 1-888-PRE-PLUS, ERC 642 Premium Services Engineer Fax: (978) 916-7717 1000 Technology Park Drive Email: robert_byers@baynetworks.com Billerica, MA 01821 http://www.baynetworks.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 16 08:45:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA13646; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparc.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (tan7.NCR.COM [192.127.94.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA13630 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ssol020.sandiegoca.ncr.com (ssol020.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM [153.64.69.48]) by sparc.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA09433; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:19:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Houle Received: (from bhoule@localhost) by ssol020.sandiegoca.ncr.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA04049; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807161519.IAA04049@ssol020.sandiegoca.ncr.com> Subject: Re: majorcool question To: res@lanl.gov Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Bob Stewart" at Jul 16, 98 08:25:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bob Stewart said: > > When the "go" button is pushed to browse the subscribed lists, (I use > netscape), Netscape displays the clock for 5-10 minutes then I get a > message that the "document contains no data". Apache server? See . Fix: disable $opt_multipart in MajorCool cf or patch Apache. --bill From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 16 09:31:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA14775; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA14768 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA29808; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:06:52 -0500 (CDT) To: Robert_Byers@BayNetworks.COM (Robert Byers) Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: wilma reindex does nothing References: <3.0.32.19980716112423.00864de0@bl-mail2.corpeast.baynetworks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 16 Jul 1998 11:06:52 -0500 In-Reply-To: Robert_Byers@BayNetworks.COM's message of "Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:24:24 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 20 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.9/Emacs 19.34 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "RB" == Robert Byers writes: RB> However, it claims there are "no new messages" (since this is the first RB> invocation of wilma_reindex, the *should* be _some_ new messages) Actually it's MHonArc that's claiming there aren't any new messages; no such message exists in Wilma. I don't know the details of your MHonArc configuration, so I can't really say why MHonArc wouldn't find any messages. RB> My guess is I've got everything set up for mhonarc OK, but maybe some RB> glimpse configuration is pointing to the wrong location? No, Glimpse seems to be running OK but it doesn't find anything since MHonArc doesn't actually build any files to index. MHonArc isn't complaining about anything, but it isn't finding anything, either. What happens when you run MHonArc by hand? - J< From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 16 13:44:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA18839; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-gw.BayNetworks.COM (ns2.BayNetworks.COM [134.177.3.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA18832 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (screen2r.BayNetworks.COM [134.177.3.1]) by smtp-gw.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20703 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster1.corpeast.Baynetworks.com (ns2.corpeast.baynetworks.com [192.32.72.17]) by mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA19072 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bl-mail2.corpeast.BayNetworks.com (bl-mail2-nf0) by lobster1.corpeast.Baynetworks.com (4.1/BNET-97/04/29-S) id AA29051; Thu, 16 Jul 98 16:44:11 EDT for majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Received: from rbyers.corpeast.baynetworks.com ([132.245.151.165]) by bl-mail2.corpeast.BayNetworks.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0529 ID# 0-13458) with SMTP id AAA28451 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:44:03 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980716164401.00875d60@bl-mail2.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: byersr@bl-mail2.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:44:02 -0400 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Robert_Byers@BayNetworks.COM (Robert Byers) Subject: Re: wilma reindex does nothing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:06 AM 7/16/98 -0500, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: >>>>>> "RB" == Robert Byers writes: > >RB> However, it claims there are "no new messages" (since this is the first >RB> invocation of wilma_reindex, the *should* be _some_ new messages) > >Actually it's MHonArc that's claiming there aren't any new messages; no >such message exists in Wilma. > >I don't know the details of your MHonArc configuration, so I can't really >say why MHonArc wouldn't find any messages. > >RB> My guess is I've got everything set up for mhonarc OK, but maybe some >RB> glimpse configuration is pointing to the wrong location? > >No, Glimpse seems to be running OK but it doesn't find anything since >MHonArc doesn't actually build any files to index. MHonArc isn't >complaining about anything, but it isn't finding anything, either. What >happens when you run MHonArc by hand? (1) When I run mhonarc manually without -add, -outdir or -rcfile, it runs fine, as outlined here: The original majordomo archives are in /usr/local/etc/httpd/htdocs/net_mgmt_list.archive. Currently there are two archive files in that directory, net_mgmt_list.9803 and net_mgmt_list.9804. I cd into that directory and execute mhonarc ./net_mgmt_list.9803 (for the moment, I don't care about mhonarc-ing the 9804 archive) The result is a series of files of the form msgxxxxx.html, threads.html, maillist.html and .mhonarc.db. I can use a web browser to read all of the html files. (2) However, if I remove all the msg*.html, threads.html, maillist.html and .mhonarc.db files, and then rerun mhonarc this time using the same -add, -rcfile and -outdir paremters that wilma_reindex uses, I get the "No new messages" situation. Aha! I think I found the problem: my archives are not actually generated by archive2.pl! For testing purposes, I had copied a mail folder from my PC's Eudora into the archive directory. I think the MSGSEP regexp in wilma_template.rc matches what archive2.pl produces, but not what my archives contain. MSGSEP is set to: ^From .* \w{3} \w{3} [ \d]\d Whereas the separators in my archive look like: From ???@??? Thu Mar 12 09:22:33 1998 I think this doesn't match because of the four digit year? (the regexp is looking for a two digit year?) So, the solution would be to use archive2.pl, or to modify the regexp to match my From lines? Thanks in advance, From majordomo-users-owner Thu Jul 16 15:45:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA20683; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sld.cu (mail.sld.cu [196.1.112.27]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA20619 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:28:50 -0700 (PDT) From: inter-l@cristal.hlg.sld.cu Received: (from daemon@localhost) by mail.sld.cu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24982; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:30:30 -0400 Received: from UNKNOWN(196.1.112.18), claiming to be "infomed.sld.cu" via SMTP by mail.sld.cu, id smtpda24976; Thu Jul 16 18:30:26 1998 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by infomed.sld.cu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id SAA21954; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:29:16 -0400 Received: (from inter-l@localhost) by cristal.hlg.sld.cu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02152; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:31:55 -0400 Message-Id: <199807162231.SAA02152@cristal.hlg.sld.cu> Subject: Re: wilma reindex does nothing To: Robert_Byers@BayNetworks.COM (Robert Byers) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:31:54 -0400 (CDT) Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980716112423.00864de0@bl-mail2.corpeast.baynetworks.com> from "Robert Byers" at Jul 16, 98 11:24:24 am Content-Type: text Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Hello, > > I'm trying to get wilma 1.4 running. I've got solaris 2.5.1, apache 1.2.6, > Also, when I browse http://myserver/cgi-bin/wilma/net_mgmt_list, the form > comes up fine, and it even lets me browse the raw archives. But when I do > a search, it never is able to match anything (this being consistent with > the result of "no new messages" during the reindex process). I have the same configuration but under Red Hat linux 5.0, and this is my problem too. the index has been built and every thing look like it indexed right, even when I run from a command line this: (I am tring to find the word GCC in the archive linux-l) glimpse -y -n -i -w -0 -W -H /home/html/listas/linux-l/index GCC The output of this command from the unix shell is: /home/httpd/html/listas/linux-l/9807/msg00000.html: 2: /home/httpd/html/listas/linux-l/9807/msg00000.html: 11: [LINUX-L:766] Re: GCC (fwd) /home/httpd/html/listas/linux-l/9807/msg00000.html: 28:

[LINUX-L:766] Re: GCC (fwd)

/home/httpd/html/listas/linux-l/9807/msg00000.html: 33:
  • Subject: [LINUX-L:766] Re: GCC (fwd)
    • /home/httpd/html/listas/linux-l/9807/msg00000.html: 47: Subject: Re: GCC /home/httpd/html/listas/linux-l/9807/msg00000.html: 50: > Alguien me puede aclarar si el compilador de c gnu (gcc) hace optimizacion /home/httpd/html/listas/linux-l/9807/msg00000.html: 54: Manera de verlo: gcc -S te entrega el assembler (xyz.c --> xyz.s), mira tu /home/httpd/html/listas/linux-l/9807/msg00000.html: 93: gcc hace su propia asignacion de registros, que tipicamente es bastante /home/httpd/html/listas/linux-l/9807/msg00000.html: 95: que no haga diferencia (gcc hace caso omiso del "register" en general). /home/httpd/html/listas/linux-l/9807/msg00000.html: 104: Considera las extensiones de gcc, particularmente inline y los diversos /home/httpd/html/listas/linux-l/9807/msg00000.html: 123: resultado temprano de traer cambios de snapshots de gcc-2.8 y ultima /home/httpd/html/listas/linux-l/9807/msg00000.html: 128: Para gcc y i586/i686 conviene usar This means that Glimpse works fine from a command line, but when I run the wilma cgi with this URL: http://my_hostname/cgi-bin/wilma you will see it shows the archives, but when i do a search on a word it come back empty all the time, I don't know why? the wilma form show me: Found 0 matches in 0 files. Even, no errors are reported.. Any help will be very Apreciated, many folks are trying to install wilma but they have this problem too. Sincerly Augusto Sao Aviles. From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 02:00:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA28008; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 01:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irafs1.ira.uka.de (irafs1.ira.uka.de [129.13.10.100]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id BAA28001 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 01:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isdn217-104.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.217.104] by irafs1 with SMTP (PP); Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:50:31 +0200 From: Marc.Haber-lists@gmx.de (Marc Haber) To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: quoted-printable subjects? Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:49:48 GMT Organization: posting from University of Karlsruhe, Germany X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <"irafs1.ira.394:17.07.98.08.50.46"@ira.uka.de> Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi! In Germany, quoted-printable is widely accepted since out language has these funky umlauts and 8-bit-chars are not permitted in headers. Majordomo, however, does not gracefully handle quoted-printable in message subjects. When a list has a digest, the digested message subjects have the quoted-unreadable [:-)] "Subject: =3D?iso-8859-1?Q?Eine_etwas_l=3DE4ngere_Mail?=3D" looking headers = (Example shows a subject saying "Eine etwas l=E4ngere Mail"). Is there any known way to fix that? Greetings Marc --=20 -------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! = ----- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im = Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | Fon: *49 721 966 32= 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fax: *49 721 966 31= 29 From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 02:14:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id CAA28291; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irafs1.ira.uka.de (irafs1.ira.uka.de [129.13.10.100]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id CAA28276 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isdn217-166.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.217.166] by irafs1 with SMTP (PP); Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:05:26 +0200 From: Marc.Haber-lists@gmx.de (Marc Haber) To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: mkdigest sending digest to unqualified address? Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:04:45 GMT Organization: posting from University of Karlsruhe, Germany X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <"irafs1.ira.704:17.07.98.09.05.27"@ira.uka.de> Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi! Since I am using exim, I need majordomo to produce fully qualified addresses [1]. My list is configured in the alias file as follows: |test-list:"|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper resend -l test-list -h = lists.mydomain.de test-list-outgoing@lists.mydomain.de" |test-list-digest:test-list@lists.mydomain.de |test-list-outgoing: :include:/var/spool/majordomo/lists/test-list, | "| /usr/local/majordomo/wrapper digest -r -C -l test-list-digest = test-list-digest-outgoing@lists.mydomain.de", | "| /usr/local/majordomo/wrapper archive2.pl -a -m -f = /var/spool/majordomo/lists/test-list.archive" |test-list-digest-outgoing::include:/var/spool/majordomo/lists/test-list-= digest This sends both list messages and digests to the fully qualified address, allowing exim to properly deliver all messages. However, if I use mkdigest to force digest delivery, that digest is delivered to test-list-digest-outgoing without qualification, causing delivery to fail. Where do I configure the addresss where to deliver forced digests? Greetings Marc [1] I am running both mydomain.de and lists.mydomain.de from the same exim with qualify_domain=3D"mydomain.de" and different alias files for mydomain.de and lists.mydomain.de. Thus, any undelivered majordomo alias is qualified with mydomain.de instead of lists.mydomain.de and delivery thus fails. --=20 -------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! = ----- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im = Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | Fon: *49 721 966 32= 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fax: *49 721 966 31= 29 From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 07:59:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA03952; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clifford.inch.com (clifford.inch.com [207.240.140.163]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA03945 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from omar@localhost) by clifford.inch.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA32274; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:48:32 -0400 Message-ID: <19980717104831.A31780@clifford.inch.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:48:31 -0400 From: Omar Thameen To: Robert Byers , majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: wilma reindex does nothing References: <3.0.32.19980716112423.00864de0@bl-mail2.corpeast.baynetworks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980716112423.00864de0@bl-mail2.corpeast.baynetworks.com>; from Robert Byers on Thu, Jul 16, 1998 at 11:24:24AM -0400 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jul 16, 1998 at 11:24:24AM -0400, Robert Byers wrote: > Hello, > > I'm trying to get wilma 1.4 running. I've got solaris 2.5.1, apache 1.2.6, > glimpse 3.6 and mhonarc 2.2.0. > > I've followed all the steps in the wilma 1.4 README file, down to the > wilma_reindex step, which seems to run without any syntax or functional > errors. However, it claims there are "no new messages" (since this is > the first invocation of wilma_reindex, the *should* be _some_ new messages) > [...] > Here is what I get from wilma_reindex: > > # cd /usr/local/etc/httpd/cgi-bin > # ./wilma_reindex net_mgmt_list > mkdir 9803, 0755 > mkdir 9804, 0755 > Re-incing net_mgmt_list.9803 net_mgmt_list.9804 > /usr/local/bin/mhonarc -add -rcfile > /usr/local/etc/apache_1.2.6/cgi-bin/.wilma/net_mgmt_list.rc -outdir 9803 > net_mgmt_list.9803 > Reading resource file: > /usr/local/etc/apache_1.2.6/cgi-bin/.wilma/net_mgmt_list.rc ... > Adding messages to 9803 > Reading net_mgmt_list.9803 > No new messages [...] > /usr/local/bin/glimpseindex -f -o -H index -M 50 -z 9803 9804 > Using 485451 words as threshold before merge > > This is glimpseindex version 3.6, 1996. > > Indexing "/usr/local/etc/apache_1.2.6/htdocs/net_mgmt_list.w3archive/9803" ... > Indexing "/usr/local/etc/apache_1.2.6/htdocs/net_mgmt_list.w3archive/9804" ... > > Size of files being indexed = 0 B, Total #of files = 0 > [...] > My guess is I've got everything set up for mhonarc OK, but maybe some glimpse > configuration is pointing to the wrong location? Maybe one of ARC_DIR, ARC_URL > or ARC_MBOX is wrong in mylist.cf? I have them set to: I think MHonArc is your problem. It's the one reporting that there were no new files to index. Perhaps there were no new messages since the last time you ran mhonarc. As you can see above, glimpse is looking in the correct directory for your html-ized archives, but there is nothing there, as you confirm below. [...] > The contents of /usr/local/etc/httpd/htdocs/net_mgmt_list.w3archive/9803 are: > total 4 > drwxr-xr-x 2 root other 512 Jul 16 10:51 ./ > drwxr-xr-x 5 root other 512 Jul 16 10:51 ../ > > > The contents of /usr/local/etc/httpd/htdocs/net_mgmt_list.w3archive/9804 are: > total 4 > drwxr-xr-x 2 root other 512 Jul 16 10:51 ./ > drwxr-xr-x 5 root other 512 Jul 16 10:51 ../ Omar From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 16:15:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12118; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12108 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mat.gsia.cmu.edu (MAT.GSIA.CMU.EDU [128.2.230.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id PAA14268 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from trick@localhost) by mat.gsia.cmu.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id SAA10627; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:33:11 -0400 Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:33:11 -0400 From: "Michael A. Trick" Message-Id: <199807112233.SAA10627@mat.gsia.cmu.edu> To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Administrative Mail loop Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all, I got into a mail loop with a bad vacation program, and would like to avoid it in the future. This loop did not occur in any list, rather it occured in the administration area. An email address was subscribed to a list (the subscription was done by an administrator, not the user). This generated a "welcome to the list message" that was sent to the user. The user's vacation message replied to majordomo (dumb, dumb!), which tried to parse its commands, failed, and emailed the failure back to the user. The user's vacation program replied, and this loop occurred 3240 times before I noticed and got it to stop. So, ignoring the fact that the vacation program of the user is very, very dumb (I think), how should I have things configured to avoid this problem in the first place? Majordomo 1.94.1, if that matters. Mike trick@cmu.edu From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 16:45:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12332; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12324 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chesco.com ([209.195.192.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA19589 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 05:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chesco.com ([10.10.10.10]) by bugs.chesco.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA03598 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807141307.JAA03598@bugs.chesco.com> X-Sender: billhlist@chesco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:52:30 -0400 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Bill Hamel Subject: Subject empty, can I deny message ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, Is it possible to disallow messages if there "Subject" is empty ? TIA, -bh From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 16:47:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12948; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12938 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipfc.bau-verm.uni-karlsruhe.de (ipfc.bau-verm.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.144.64]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id AAA26478 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ipfc.bau-verm.uni-karlsruhe.de (Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0yx5EM-00006YC; Fri, 17 Jul 98 09:47 MET DST Message-Id: From: schi@ipf.bau-verm.uni-karlsruhe.de (Klaus-Juergen Schilling) Subject: question who $list To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:47:02 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk how can i disable this command. i don't want that anybody can see which persons subscribed to the list. thanx for answer. ciao klaus From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 16:53:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12310; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12300 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atzh3.gordon.army.mil (atzh3.gordon.army.mil [147.51.5.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA27109 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ATZH3 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id <35G680HX>; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:58:32 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Nicholson, Crystal L. PFC" To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Private list Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:58:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi I am new to majordomo. I need to restrict commands like who, get, which and index from everyone not subscribed to the list without restricting the subscribe command. The list owner wants these things restricted with out having to approve everyone that subscribes. any suggestion. thank you Crystal From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 16:55:33 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12837; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12829 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs (cs.med.deu.edu.tr [193.140.153.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id BAA07701 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Cocuk_Cerrahisi by cs (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA13716; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:41:54 +0300 Message-Id: <199807160841.LAA13716@cs> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tanju Aktug" To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:37:46 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Help for archive2.pl Reply-to: aktugt@cs.med.deu.edu.tr X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear All, I use majordomo 1.93 on a linux OS. When I want to make archives with archive2.pl I receive a message "Invalid archive directory". As archive dir I mentioned "/usr/local/mail/lists/$list$filedir_suffix" and "/usr/local/mail/lists/$list.archive". They didn't work. If I want to see the index of files with index command, the command works properly... Can any one help me? Best regards. Tanju Aktug From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 17:00:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12207; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12199 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.visiontm.com (server.visiontm.com [208.236.113.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA18735 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hp.visiontm.com (hp.visiontm.com [192.168.93.5]) by server.visiontm.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA04991 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:34:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Harry Patterson" To: Subject: Easy Multiple subscriptions Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:39:03 -0400 Message-ID: <01bdae5b$37bf9000$055da8c0@hp.visiontm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anyone know of an easy way/tool to subscribe/unsubscribe multiple email addresses without allowing access to the majordomo list file directly? I was thinking of something like: approve password subscribe add1@a.com, add2@b.com, add3@c.com Or there may be a cgi program that allows multiple addresses. Any ideas? Thanks Harry From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 17:01:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12419; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12411 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prime.xfactor.no (prime.xfactor.no [193.216.236.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA07188 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xfactor.no (mp-38-132.daxnet.no [193.216.38.132]) by prime.xfactor.no (8.9.0/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA19049 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:41:47 +0200 Message-ID: <35ABB319.D8BCA976@xfactor.no> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:35:54 +0200 From: "Kjell Rune Glærum" Organization: Paniczone Network Administration X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: I need help! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello.. I have some problems .with majordomo I have created .one list subscribing to the .list works fine... but when. I send. a mail to the list "info" .(info-list@paniczone.net) it says: 550: :include:/usr/test/majordomo-1-94.4/lists/info.. Cannot open /usr/test/majordomo-1-94.4/lists/info: Group writeable .directory 554: ... aliasing/forwarding loop broken NOTE: the domain is .for. a LAN only... Please help me! From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 17:03:17 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12225; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12214 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA20547 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA24467 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:23:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807131323.JAA24467@cis.ohio-state.edu> To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: -outgoing-Lists and Security? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:27:40 GMT." <"irafs1.ira.111:13.07.98.09.28.27"@ira.uka.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:22:53 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I am concerned about "bad" people sending mail to test-list-outgoing >instead of test-list. Is that a security risk? Yes, read the Majordomo FAQ. >One more question: It seems to be a yet unresolved issue to remove >list footers from digests so that not every digested message has the >list footer in the digest. Did I miss someting or is deleting the >footer from digested messages is not an option at the moment? I thought i remember seeing patches for this. Check the archives. --Dave From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 17:11:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12692; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12683 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tmsext01.tms.org ([208.159.101.124]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA12233 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tms.org ([208.159.101.50]) by tmsext01.tms.org (Lotus SMTP MTA v1.2 (600.1 3-26-1998)) with SMTP id 85256642.00628541; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:56:06 -0400 Message-ID: <35ACEFD9.362188A9@tms.org> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:07:21 -0400 From: Michael Mullig Organization: TMS X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: In need of help . . . again Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Good Day All, Sorry to bother anyone, but I could use some help on an interesting issue. I am running MajorDomo 1.94.4 with Sendmail 8.6 and Perl 5.004 and a Sun Solaris 2.6. My current problem is that when sending commands to the majordomo, I don't get any response. This is a sample of what I've sent: To: domo@tmssun.tms.org cc: Subject: config execcom execcom.admin config execcom execcom.admin I'm covering my bases using both the main body and the subject line, although I wondered if this is the problem. Does anyone have any ideas or more information? Michael Mullig mullig@tms.org P.S. Please email me a reply. Thanks. From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 17:12:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12573; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12555 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay13.jaring.my (relay13.jaring.my [192.228.128.124]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA04416 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 07:37:11 -0700 (PDT) From: LIDANCR@aol.com Received: from jaring.jaring.my (j10.ptl37.jaring.my [161.142.115.84]) by relay13.jaring.my (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25208; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:40:16 +0800 (MYT) Message-Id: <199807151440.WAA25208@relay13.jaring.my> To: "majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM" , robert@chalmers.com.au Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:28:56 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: How do I make the list messages show the list address In-reply-to: <35ABD991.B2A2369@chalmers.com.au> Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > How do I make messages addressed to the list, show the list as the return > address? and not my own address? > > You can't do that when you send to a discussion group. Accountability of every posting is important to avoid misunderstanding in group. Therefore, I believe no one is able to send anonymous email. Anyone care to elaborate? Benjamin Jokes Make My Day (JMMD) List ======================================== Receive your FREE subscription NOW!!! Just send an email to subscribe-jmmd@reply.net ======================================== From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 17:14:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12357; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12347 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from keynes.econ.utah.edu (keynes.econ.utah.edu [128.110.114.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id JAA28171 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marx.econ.utah.edu.utah.edu by keynes.econ.utah.edu (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA27492; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:58:50 -0600 Received: by marx.econ.utah.edu.utah.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA03984; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:56:55 -0600 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:56:55 -0600 Message-Id: <199807141656.KAA03984@marx.econ.utah.edu.utah.edu> From: Hans Ehrbar To: nunez@helios.net Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199807120739.DAA22784@venus.helios.net> (nunez@helios.net) Subject: majordomo admin and emacs Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've written a few emacs (elisp) functions which allow me to email-administer a few small majordomo lists at different sites with different passwords. One function approves messages, another subscribes/unsubscribes list members. My guess it is about 5 times faster than the contortions I had to go through to do it with pine. It is less tedious and much safer than doing it by hand; the chances that the list password is sent to the list are minimal. How many list administrators are out there who know emacs and who are interested in this? Perhaps we can prototype such functions in emacs and then someone can write macros with similar functionality in Eudora etc? Hans Ehrbar From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 17:19:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12291; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12283 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ebbtide.xws.com ([208.14.145.252]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA21544 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sawtooth.xws.com (sawtooth.xws.com [205.162.198.2]) by ebbtide.xws.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA09895 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:27:49 -0700 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:46:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Adams To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: file permission problem for unsubscribe Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Subscribe works fine. We have the following file permission problem for unsubscribe: MAJORDOMO ABORT (mj_majordomo)!! chmod(33204, "/home/majordomo/lists/nwppa-its.new"): Operation not permitted -rw-rw---- 1 mail mail 5 Jul 13 07:13 L.nwppa-its -rw-rw-r-- 1 majordom mail 347 Jul 13 06:32 nwppa-its -rw-rw-r-- 1 majordom mail 0 Jun 3 15:22 nwppa-its.closed -rw-rw---- 1 majordom mail 16113 Jun 3 15:30 nwppa-its.config -rw-rw-r-- 1 majordom mail 4963 Jun 10 16:53 nwppa-its.info -rw-rw-r-- 1 majordom mail 0 Jul 13 07:13 nwppa-its.new -rw-rw-r-- 1 majordom mail 6 Jun 3 15:27 nwppa-its.passwd --- Brian Adams Sawtooth Technologies, LLC. Tel. 888-427-4865 http://WWW.SAW.NET From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 17:21:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12637; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12627 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA08744 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibm.net (pool003-max6.ds8-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.2.153]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA10559 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35ACDE6F.3AB66E2A@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:53:03 -0700 From: Jeff Lasman Reply-To: jlasman@ibm.net Organization: Interesting Times X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Setting Up a Moderated List References: <199807151343.JAA06066@eclectic.kluge.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Depends how he's moderating. If he's doing it like I do it, he's pasting all the headers at the top of the moderated message. After all the headers, there's a blank line before the message proper. If he does it that way, he simply adds a line as the first header. Works like a champ. Jeff Theo Van Dinter wrote: > > | The "Approved: passed" belongs in the headers, not the body. > > it's allowed if it's a "fake header" ... (ie: it's the first line of the body with a blank line after it). -- Jeff Lasman From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 17:26:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12488; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12478 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA19627 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ben by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.00 #1) for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com id 0ywESy-00005u-00; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:26:36 +0100 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:26:36 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Smithurst To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Digest & Attachments In-Reply-To: <005601bdaf53$98196770$0100000a@erica> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Erica Zubkoff wrote: > The question: Does anyone know how to get the digest to recognize > attachments *as* attachments, just as the regular mailing > list is able to do? How are you feeding messages into the digest script? I just have list-mkdigest@ as an address do it, where that address is just a subscribe to list. So it only gets sent to the digest script if the regular subscribers also get it. I can only think you are piping messages like this list: "| resend -l list list-outgoing", "| digest ..." a better option would be mine or ... list: "| resend -l list list-outgoing,list-mkdigest" list-mkdigest: "| digest ..." -- Ben Smithurst From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 17:29:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12194; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12173 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irafs1.ira.uka.de (irafs1.ira.uka.de [129.13.10.100]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id CAA14499 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isdn224-175.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.20.2] (actually studsun1) by irafs1 with SMTP (PP); Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:28:20 +0200 From: Marc.Haber-lists@gmx.de (Marc Haber) To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: end and newconfig Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:27:41 GMT Organization: posting from University of Karlsruhe, Germany X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <"irafs1.ira.112:13.07.98.09.28.27"@ira.uka.de> Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi! Since the newconfig command (1.94.4) cannot deal with quoted configs, I tried to copy the config into the clipboard, reply to the config message and to paste the config into the new message, leaving the old config in the message. That would have the nice effect of documenting _what_ was changed. Unfortunately, this doesn't work. After the newconfig, "end" isn't accepted and majordomo complains about the quoted old config in the message. Is that a bug or a feature? Greetings Marc --=20 -------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! = ----- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im = Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | Fon: *49 721 966 32= 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fax: *49 721 966 31= 29 From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 17:30:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12904; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12870 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from desertcactus.com (desertcactus.com [192.41.12.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA16638 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from desertcactus.com (1Cust196.tnt7.lax3.da.uu.net [153.37.72.196]) by desertcactus.com (8.8.5) id LAA05052; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:38:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <35AE3A46.F8939E7F@desertcactus.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:37:13 -0700 From: denny ladwig Reply-To: denny@desertcactus.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Majordomo Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there a key word searchable Majodomo users archive anywhere ? I have a digest running and use the Meassgae Fronter -SUBJECT- statement to provide digest subscribers with a consolidated list of subjects for that particular digest. (1) How to I pre-append (in the left margin) the subjects or other text fort he individual posts which appear in the digest so they are easier to read/find? (2) How do I strip the list generated footers from each post that appears in the digest ? I have not seen an example of how to configure the digest config file to do these things. Nor for that matter a clear expalanation (with examples) of how to use certain other digest configuration options such as purge_recieved, noadvertise, advertise, subkect prefix, strip etc. / tks in advance denny ladwig From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 17:31:29 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12763; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12753 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saluki-mail.siu.edu (saluki-mail.siu.edu [131.230.252.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA21135 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ocap1 (www.asa-ocap.siu.edu [131.230.64.6]) by saluki-mail.siu.edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id QAA53210 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:13:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980715161221.009192a0@saluki-mail.siu.edu> X-Sender: wwill@saluki-mail.siu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:12:23 -0500 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM From: Wes Will Subject: Re: mailing lists and MTA's Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:17 PM 7/15/98 -0400, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >I am sick of .... And __I__ am so very very sick of the squabbles going on right now over whose dog is bigger that I am unsubscribing from this list. However helpful it could have been, the sheer annoyance of seeing all of the posts from you two juveniles bickering overwhelms any possible utility. I had hoped that I could learn something about _MajorDomo_ here. I see I was mistaken. I *have* learned that infantile idiocy is not restricted to my users, as I had been thinking. It also extends to reputedly very proficient systems administrators who apparently have an excess of time on their hands and no life. Or sense. Or clue. Or ability to move such a pitiful mess to private email, rather choosing to piss off more people faster. Or limit to the number of arguments over something trivial. Or ability to "agree to disagree" and get on with the rest of life. And I had such high hopes that I might learn something here. Too bad I was mistaken. Wes Will Computer Specialist/Webmaster SIUC CASA/OCAP 618-453-8895 wwill@siu.edu From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 17:37:52 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12734; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12723 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:21:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from indicus.vet.ufmg.br (indicus.vet.ufmg.br [150.164.122.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA19181 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by indicus.vet.ufmg.br (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18486; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:39:45 -0200 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:39:45 -0200 (GRNLNDDT) From: Administrador Majordomo To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Mail deferred Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Friends.... I installed majordomo-1.94.4 . I tested it running wrapper config-test from a non SU account... and all seem ok. After, I created the majordomo aliases in my /etc/aliases: majordomo: "|/home2/admlistas/major-program/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo" majordomo-owner: admlista owner-majordomo: admlista The problem is: When I type: echo help | /usr/lib/sendmail -v majordomo I recieve the next message root... setsender: uid/gid = 0/0 majordomo... aliased to "|/home2/admlistas/major-program/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo" "|/home2/admlistas/major-program/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo"... Connecting to .prog... "|/home2/admlistas/major-program/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo"... Connecting to (prog)... "|/home2/admlistas/major-program/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo"... openmailer: The default user number is 1; the default group number is 1. "|/home2/admlistas/major-program/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo"... openmailer: Setting the ctladdr user number to 0 and group number to 0 "|/home2/admlistas/major-program/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo"... execve: The user number is 0; the group number is 0. sendmail: 0832-215 Mailer sh ended with signal 213 "|/home2/admlistas/major-program/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo"... Deferred Saving message in //dead.letter //dead.letter... Service unavailable: There are no child processes. Anyone know what's happenning ???? Thanks in advance ..... Cantidio Lelis Universidade Federal de Minas Gerais - BRAZIL From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 17:42:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12547; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12537 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA25966 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibm.net (pool045-max12.ds8-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.3.245]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA23886; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35AC751C.EC4525DC@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:23:40 -0700 From: Jeff Lasman Reply-To: jlasman@ibm.net Organization: Interesting Times X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Sill CC: Rich Pieri , majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: From: field on messages References: <19980708161142.17677.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <19980708180907.19449.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I suppose, then, Dave, that I couldn't have anonymous lists, either , according to Rich and others? One of the lists I maintain/moderate is anonymous by agreement of the list-members. I couldn't do that without modifying headers, and even occasionally removing "signatures" (which in many systems are placed at the end of each message without user intervention). I do NOT remove identifying material in the body of the email; I presume someone who puts their address there wants to identify themselves. This is all by agreement with the list-members, and therefore, imho, perfectly valid. Dave Sill wrote: > I disagree. My interpretation is that list mail sent via a resender > consists of two different messages: one from the originator to the > resender, and one from the resender to the subscribers. They may look > similar sometimes, but they're not identical. The difference is that > the resender can do whatever munging/filtering the list owner desires. > If you don't buy this argument, then digestifying, adding/modifying > Reply-To, etc., are all illegal. That may be OK with you, but these > are common practices. > > -Dave -- Jeff Lasman "Publisher of the FREE InterestingTimes computer-industry newsletter. To subscribe, write "subscribe InterestingTimes" (without the quotes) in the body of your email. From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 17:45:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12622; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12595 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stat.iac.rm.cnr.it (stat.iac.rm.cnr.it [150.146.2.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA07739 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by stat.iac.rm.cnr.it (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09191 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:29:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from rios1.iac.rm.cnr.it(150.146.2.49) by stat via smap (V2.1) id xma009187; Wed, 15 Jul 98 18:28:39 +0200 Message-ID: <35ACE7CB.2403AA9B@iac.rm.cnr.it> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:32:59 +0000 From: Paolo Rughetti Organization: IAC CNR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; AIX 4.2) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Problems with majordomo.aliases file Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We are an Italian research Institute. We have majordomo 1.94.4 version installed on a Sun SparcStation LX with Solaris 2.5; we also have Perl 5.004_04 version, sendmail 8.8.8 version and Smap installed. We have a problem with the following lists and aliases in the majordomo.aliases file, configured as follows: --------------------------------------- personale: ricercatori,:include:/usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/AltriUtentiNIS ,tecnici # ###personale: "|/usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper resend -l personale personal e-list" ###personale-list: :include:/usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/personale ###personale: "|/usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper resend -l personale personal e-list" ###personale-list: :include:/usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/personale owner-personale: root@stat.iac.rm.cnr.it personale-owner: root@stat.iac.rm.cnr.it personale-request: "/usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo -l personale" personale-approval: root@stat.iac.rm.cnr.it tecnici: "|/usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper resend -l tecnici tecnici-list" tecnici-list: :include:/usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/tecnici owner-tecnici: root@stat.iac.rm.cnr.it tecnici-owner: root@stat.iac.rm.cnr.it tecnici-request: "/usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo -l tecnici" tecnici-approval: root@stat.iac.rm.cnr.it ricercatori: "|/usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper resend -l ricercatori ricerca tori-list" ricercatori-list: :include:/usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/ricercatori owner-ricercatori: root@stat.iac.rm.cnr.it ricercatori-owner: root@stat.iac.rm.cnr.it ricercatori-request: "/usr/local/majordomo-1.94.4/wrapper majordomo -l ricercato ri" ricercatori-approval: root@stat.iac.rm.cnr.it ----------------------------------------------- Before this configuration personale was a list; I decided to transform it in an alias because the users in personale lists are the sum of tecnici and ricercatori lists; so I would like an alias, personale, that sends mail to the two lists, tecnici and ricercatori, and also includes another file, which has other addresses. If I send a message to personale@iac.rm.cnr.it now ONLY the users of the ricercatori list and the users listed in the file AltriUtentiNIS, receive the message; why the users of tecnici list does not? Is there any restriction and/or rule about an alias line in majordomo.aliases ? Any help will be appreciated, thank You. *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* Paolo Rughetti Tel: 039-6-88470249 Consiglio Nazionale delle Ricerche Fax: 039-6-4404306 Istituto Applicazioni del Calcolo "M. Picone" Viale del Policlinico 137 ________________________ 00161 ROME |\______________________/| ITALY | | | E-mail: | | rughetti@iac.rm.cnr.it | |________________________| *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* From majordomo-users-owner Fri Jul 17 17:48:29 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12520; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12510 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA22166 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (barr@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.128.12]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA18639 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:05:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Dave Barr Received: (barr@localhost) by stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu (8.8.0/8.6.4) id BAA07224 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807150505.BAA07224@stumble.cis.ohio-state.edu> To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Reply-To: barr@cis.ohio-state.edu Subject: Majordomo Frequently Asked Questions Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Version: $Id: majordomo-faq.html,v 1.183 1998/07/06 12:45:31 barr Exp barr $ URL: http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~barr/majordomo-faq.html Archive-Name: mail/majordomo-faq Posting-Frequency: monthly Note: This FAQ has been recently updated to be exclusively for Majordomo 1.94 and up. Table of Contents: 1. What is Majordomo and how can I get it? + 1.1 - What is Majordomo? + 1.2 - Where do I get Majordomo? + 1.3 - How do I install it? + 1.4 - How do I upgrade from an earlier release? + 1.5 - Where do I report bugs or get help with Majordomo? + 1.6 - Which is better, Majordomo or LISTSERV? + 1.7 - How can I access Majordomo via the Web? + 1.8 - Is Majordomo Y2K (Year 2000) compilant? 2. Problems setting up Majordomo + 2.1 - What are the proper permissions and ownership of all Majordomo files and directories? + 2.2 - I get a MAJORDOMO ABORT with "chown(...): Not owner" or ".. Operation not permitted" + 2.3 - I get "sh: wrapper: cannot execute" or "wrapper: permission denied" + 2.4 - I get "Unknown mailer error" when majordomo runs + 2.5 - I get an error "insecure usage" from the wrapper + 2.6 - I get "majordomo: No such file or directory" from the wrapper + 2.7 - I get an error "Can't locate majordomo.pl" + 2.8 - I told my majordomo.cf where to archive the list, why isn't it working? + 2.9 - config-test can't seem to find ctime.pl or resend can't find getopts.pl + 2.10 - A list is visible via lists, but can't subscribe or 'get' files + 2.11 - I get "sh: wrapper not available for sendmail programs" + 2.12 - I get "Aliasing/Forwarding Loop Broken" 3. Setting up mailing lists and aliases + 3.1 - How do I direct bounces to the right address? + 3.2 - Semi-automated handling of bounced mail + 3.3 - What's this Owner-List and List-Owner stuff? Why both? + 3.4 - How should I configure resend for Reply-To headers? + 3.5 - How can I hide lists so they can't be viewed by 'lists'? + 3.6 - How can I restrict a list such that only subscribers can send mail to the list? + 3.7 - Can I have the list owner or approval person be changeable without intervention from the Majordomo owner? + 3.8 - What are all these different passwords? + 3.9 - How do I tell majordomo to handle "get"-ing of binary files? + 3.10 - How do I set up a moderated list? + 3.11 - How do I set up a digested version of a list? + 3.12 - How do I setup virtual majordomo domains? + 3.13 - How can I stop people from using my mailing list to spam my subscribers? 4. Mailer and list admininistration problems + 4.1 - Address with blanks are being treated separately + 4.2 - Why aren't my digests going out? + 4.3 - Why do I get duplicate mail sent to the list? + 4.4 - How do I gate my list to and/or from a newsgroup? + 4.5 - How can I improve Majordomo's performance? + 4.6 - How can I handle X.400 addresses? + 4.7 - Why is the Subject of my messages missing? + 4.8 - I'm getting mail from majordomo with "BOUNCE:" what do I do? How do I stop this? + 4.9 - My list configuration doesn't seem to be working. + 4.10 - How do I set it up so that the originator of a message doesn't get a copy of his/her own message back? + 4.11 - With Smail or Exim, users subscribing to a list sometimes get mail sent before they subscribed + 4.12 - Majordomo doesn't seem to work with sendmail 8.9 This FAQ is Copyright 1996 by David Barr and The Ohio State University. This document may be reproduced, so long as it is kept in its entirety and in its original format. Credits: This FAQ originally written by Vincent D. Skahan. Many thanks to the members of the majordomo-workers and majordomo-users mailing lists for many of the questions and answers found in this FAQ. Thanks to fen@comedia.com (Fen Labalme) for getting an HTML version started. You can get an HTML version of this FAQ on the World Wide Web at http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~barr/majordomo-faq.html. You can request a copy by email by sending a message to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu, with the following text in the body: send usenet/comp.mail.list-admin.software/Majordomo_Frequently_Asked_Questions If you have any questions or submissions regarding this FAQ, send them to barr@cis.ohio-state.edu (David Barr). _________________________________________________________________ Section 1: What is Majordomo and how can I get it? 1.1 - What is Majordomo? Majordomo is a program which automates the management of Internet mailing lists. Commands are sent to Majordomo via electronic mail to handle all aspects of list maintainance. Once a list is set up, virtually all operations can be performed remotely, requiring no intervention upon the postmaster of the list site. See the main Majordomo web page at: http://www.greatcircle.com/majordomo/ Majordomo controls a list of addresses for some mail transport system (like sendmail or smail) to handle. Majordomo itself performs no mail delivery (though it has scripts to format and archive messages). majordomo - n: a person who speaks, makes arrangements, or takes charge for another. From latin "major domus" - "master of the house". Majordomo is written in Perl. It will work with Perl 4.036 or Perl 5.002 or greater. It will not work with Perl 5.001!!!. It is recommended that you use the latest release of Perl that you can get, which can be found at http://www.perl.com/perl/. You must upgrade to version 1.94.3 in order for it to work with Perl 5.004, due to changes in regular expressions. While Majordomo is still compatible with Perl 4.036, future versions will likely be Perl 5 only. Many people have been having problems with DEC OSF/1 AXP systems with Majordomo. Apparently Perl on the Alphas is not as stable as compared to other platforms, and Majordomo tickles bugs in that port of Perl. If you are having problems, please make sure you are running the very latest version of Perl (version 5.002 is known to work). There have also been reported problems with the native compiler for AIX 3.2.5. Perl compiled with that compiler will crash when running Majordomo (even though it passes all the regression tests), however if you compile Perl with gcc it will work. Majordomo was developed under UNIX based systems, but will probably work on others. If you can get Perl to compile and run cleanly on your system, and can send Internet mail by piping or calling an external program (and that external program reads its list of recipients from a plain text file), you can probably get Majordomo to work on a wide variety of UNIX-based and non-UNIX based systems. There is no known port of Majordomo to Windows NT or Win95. For more information, see the comp.os.msdos.mail-news FAQ. At last check there was a port of an old version (1.93) to MS-DOS/Waffle, and an old version (1.93) ported to OS/2. These probably aren't all that helpful for anyone porting Majordomo to NT. Here's a short list of some of the features of Majordomo. * supports various types of lists, including moderated ones. * List options can be set easily through a configuration file, editable remotely. * Supports archival and remote retrieval of messages. * Supports digests. * Written in Perl, - easily customizable and expandable. * Modular in design. * Includes support for FTPMAIL. * Supports confirmation of subscriptions (to protect against forged subscription requests). * List filters 1.2 - Where do I get Majordomo? Via the Web at: http://www.greatcircle.com/majordomo/ Via anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.greatcircle.com/pub/majordomo/ ftp://ftp.sgi.com/other/majordomo/ ftp://ftp.sgi.com/other/majordomo/ The current version is 1.94.4. It includes a security fix for a bug found in 1.94.3 and prior. If you don't have Perl, you can get it from: http://www.perl.com/perl/ Use that link for more information about Perl, too. The FTPMAIL package can be found in ftp://src.doc.ic.ac.uk/packages/ftpmail or any comp.sources.misc archive (volume 37). 1.3 - How do I install it? Majordomo comes with a rather extensive INSTALL file. Read this file completely. There's also a README file which also covers some common problems. This FAQ is meant to be a supplement to Majordomo's documentation, not a replacement for it. If you have any questions that this FAQ doesn't cover, chances are that it is covered in the documentation in the Majordomo distribution. For anyone who is going to run a list, you must read Doc/list-owner-info before trying to do anything. If you don't have access to the system where your list is being run, the Majordomo maintainer who set up your list should have sent it to you. Bug him if he didn't. If you have permission problems unpacking the distribution, try using the 'o' flag to tar to ignore user/group information. 1.4 - How do I upgrade from an earlier release? Be sure to browse the "Changelog" file to get an idea what has changed. There currently is no canned set of instructions for upgrading from an earlier release. The most straightforward method is to simply install the current release in a different directory, (with the same list/archive/digest directories) and change the mail aliases for each list to use the new Majordomo scripts as soon as you feel comfortable with the new setup. Be careful in upgrading to 1.94 that you update your $mailer and $bounce_mailer variables in your majordomo.cf! There are also some other new variables too. You may want to update the list .config files so they contain any new variables found in the new release. You just need to do a 'writeconfig' for each list, and majordomo will update the .config file using the existing values in the old .config file. Any new variables will be set to defaults for a new list. 1.5 - Where do I report bugs or get help with Majordomo? Please DO NOT ask the FAQ maintainer for help on Majordomo. I will probably accidently delete your message. Let me say that about 90% of the answers I give are from the documentation or this FAQ. Most of the rest are answered by reading the source. It's really not that hard to figure out. If you need help, there is a mailing list majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, which is frequented by lots of users of Majordomo. Report actual bugs to majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com. It's a good idea to search an browse the list archives below for the last couple months since many of the same questions are asked (and answered) over and over again. There are searchable list archives (thanks to Jason Tibbitts) at http://www.hpc.uh.edu/majordomo-users/ and http://www.hpc.uh.edu/majordomo-workers/. Be sure always to include which version of Majordomo you are using. You should also include what operating system you are using, what version of Perl, and what mailer (sendmail, smail, qmail, etc) and version you are using, especially if you can't get Majordomo to work at all. But first, you must have thoroughly read the ALL documentation in the Majordomo distribution and this FAQ. If you got this FAQ from the Majordomo distribution, or anywhere except from the WWW site at the top of this document don't expect it to be up-to-date. It's probably not. There is an FTP site for unofficial patches. See http://sol.ccsf.cc.ca.us/ftp/majordomo-patches/ . What's in it? Messages that are saved from the majordomo-users and -workers mailing lists. There are INDEX files in each part with one-line summaries of each patch, and a README file in the top directory with overall information. If you have patches that you think should be in the archive, you can FTP or email them in. The top-level README file tells how to do it. Please contribute -- to save other people the headaches you had. NOTE: The patches are NOT "official" patches approved by Chan Wilson or anyone else. Use your own judgement before (and after) you apply them. Nick Perry also has various patches for 1.94.3 at ftp://ftp.amulation.co.uk/pub/majordomo_patches/. They are patches which add various functions to majordomo. Do NOT ask questions about Majordomo on the list-managers@greatcircle.com list. That list is for general discussions about running mailing lists, not for help on specific packages. The same goes for the Usenet group comp.mail.list-admin.policy. There is a good guide for people running majordomo lists at http://docuspace.uchicago.edu/g_maj-adm.html. Look for a great book out now from O'Reilly and Associates called "Managing Mailing Lists", by Alan Schwartz. You can read my review of the book at http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~barr/managing-maillist-review.html . I was one of the book's technical reviewers. 1.6 - Which is better, Majordomo or LISTSERV? For a good comparison of various mailing list managers (MLM's) there's a good FAQ by Norm Aleks. It is posted monthly to news.answers and comp.mail.list-admin.software. It's also mirrored at the following URL. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/mail/list-admin/software-faq. (this file no longer exists, apparently. If anyone knows where this, please let me know) Contact naleks@library.ummed.edu (Norm Aleks) for more information. 1.7 - How can I access Majordomo via the Web? There are various Web interfaces to Majordomo available. * LWGate - http://www.netspace.org/users/dwb/lwgate.html * Regan's - http://www.peak.org/peak_info/mlists/Majordomo.html * MajorCool - http://ncrinfo.ncr.com/pub/contrib/unix/MajorCool/ * MailServ - http://iquest.com/~fitz/www/mailserv/ * Pandora - http://www.ed.umuc.edu/pandora/ * Maitre-d - http://www.outer.net/wps/content2.htm#ch12 * Gutierrez' - http://gaia.gutierrez.com/majordomo/ * Marcos' - http://www.inf.utfsm.cl/~marcos/majordomo/www.html * ListTool - http://www.listtool.com/ 1.8 - Is Majordomo Y2K (Year 2000) compilant? The current release of Majordomo has no known year 2000 issues. Older versions had problems only if you used the "archive" program to maintain list archives, since it used only a 2-digit year. If you use the new 4-digit year flags to archive you should not have any year 2000 problems. No one has officially certified Majordomo to be Y2K compliant, and I don't forsee anyone paying money to do so, so don't go looking for someone to sue if it breaks. All we are saying is that we know of no year 2000 issues with Majordomo. That being said, as you can see by reading the Majordomo source, except for the "archive" program majordomo doesn't directly deal with dates so it's extremely unlikely there are any year 2000 issues. Even places where it does use dates (archive) it doesn't do any date comparisions, which is the crux of all non-cosmetic year 2000 bugs. At worst "archive" would overrwrite your 100-year-old mailing list archives. I really really doubt Majordomo will still be used for 100 years. _________________________________________________________________ Section 2: Problems setting up Majordomo 2.1 - What are the proper permissions and ownership of all Majordomo files and directories? By far the biggest problem in setting up Majordomo is getting all the permissions and ownerships right. In part this is due to the security model that Majordomo uses, and it's also due to the fact that it's hard to automate this process. Once you install majordomo, run "./wrapper config-test" as some other user (like you) and read the results. Do NOT run "./wrapper config-test" as 'root' or your 'majordom' user. That will defeat the test of the wrapper operation. The config-test script will check your installation for correct permissions (as well as other tests) and report any problems. It's not quite perfect, but it catches 95% of all problems. Majordomo works by using a small C "wrapper" which works by allowing Majordomo to always run as the "majordom" user and group that you create. (note that the wrapper may disappear in a future release, since its function could safely be replaced by features found in Perl 5) You can use a different name than "majordom" for your user and group, but that is what is assumed for the explanations found in this document. The 1.94.3 INSTALL file suggests using 'daemon' as your majordomo group. This is the group that 'sendmail' runs as, and allows you to have $homedir permissions set to 750. This has the disadvantage in environments where there may be one or more administrators of the Majordomo system or where you don't want to always have to 'su' the the majordomo user to do administration. (you don't really want to put other normal users in the 'daemon' group for security reasons) If you create a separate 'majordom' group and add yourself and other majordomo administrators to it, then you'll need to make sure the $homedir and wrapper have world execute permission, and you may have to add 'majordom' to the 'trusted' list of users in your sendmail.cf. (otherwise sendmail 8.x will probably give "X-Authentication-Warning:"'s) Because Majordomo does not run with any "special" (root) priviliges, and because of the fact that Majordomo does a lot of .lock-style locking (with shlock.pl), permissions on all files and directories are critical to the correct operation of Majordomo. The wrapper The wrapper is compiled in one of two ways, by uncommenting the correct section in the Makefile for your type of system. If you are unsure if your system is POSIX or not, I would suggest you assume that your system is not. (The default is POSIX) If things don't work right (for example you get symptoms of permission problems or you get an error from the wrapper saying to recompile using POSIX flags), then try POSIX. Some systems which are non-POSIX: SunOS 4.x, Ultrix, most BSD 4.2 and 4.3-based systems. POSIX systems include: Solaris 2.x, IRIX 5.x, BSDI (and other 4.4 BSD-based systems), Linux. Make sure W_PATH is right in the Makefile. On IRIX 5.x, you need to add /usr/bsd to the W_PATH to get the hostname (needed by Perl) command. (IRIX doesn't have a /usr/ucb). If you are on a non-POSIX system, the wrapper must be both suid and sgid (mode 6755) to "majordom". It must not be setuid root! OR On a POSIX system the wrapper must be setuid root, and double-check that W_USER and W_GROUP are the uid and gid of the "majordom" user and group. Don't ever set W_USER to be 0! Then compile the wrapper and install it. Do not install the wrapper on an NFS filesystem mounted with the "nosuid" option set. This will prevent the wrapper from working. Majordomo files All files that majordomo creates will be mode 660, user "majordom", group "majordom" if it is running correctly (see $config_umask in the majordomo.cf). The "Log" file that Majordomo writes logging information to must have this same permission and ownership. Make sure any files you create by hand (.config, subscription lists) have this same permission and ownership. (they can also be mode 664 if you don't need the contents to be private to others) The permissions/ownership of the Majordomo programs and related files themselves aren't as critical, but the must all be readable to the "majordom" user/group. All Majordomo programs (majordomo, resend, etc.) must have the execute bit set. All Majordomo programs must have the correct path to Perl in the #! line in the beginning of the script. The 'make install' process should do this all automatically for you. Majordomo directories All directories under Majordomo's control ($homedir, $listdir, $digest_work_dir, $filedir, as defined in your majordomo.cf) must be at least mode 750 (or 755). They should be user and group owned by "majordom". If want to allow a local user to be able to directly modify files or for example copy files into a list's archive directory, you may make the directory or file owned by that user. However directories and files must be then group-"majordom" writeable (770 or 775). 2.2 - I get a MAJORDOMO ABORT with "chown(...): Not owner" or ".. Operation not permitted" Most likely your wrapper is not installed correctly. Re-check the Makefile and see if the wrapper was compiled with the right UID and GID. See the README and the above section on how to set the permissions correctly. Make sure after you fix the wrapper that you remove (or rename) any "listname.new" or "L.listname" files found in your lists directory. These will likely have the wrong ownerships, and cause you problems. You should have seen an error if you ran "./wrapper config-test". If not, it's a bug in config-test and should be fixed. 2.3 - I get "sh: wrapper: cannot execute" or "wrapper: permission denied" This is a bug in the 1.94 Makefile. You'll see this in new installs of Majordomo if you don't use a majordomo group of 'daemon'. The majordomo $homedir needs to have permission of at least 751 (or 755), not 750. Otherwise, sendmail won't have permission to execute the wrapper. You'll need to do a 'chmod 755 $homedir' after you install majordomo. Make sure 'wrapper' also has world execute permission. Some people also have put the user 'daemon' in the 'majordom' group. This works too. 2.4 - I get "Unknown mailer error" when majordomo runs If something is wrong with your setup, the wrapper will often exit with various return codes depending on what the problem is. In order to really understand what is going on, look at the session transcript further down in the bounce message to see the error which is returned from the wrapper or from Majordomo. You should usually see some sort of error message. If you just get a return code, check the Majordomo README for futher explanation on sendmail return codes. If you get "Unknown mailer error XX" where XX is less than 255, look for the error in /usr/include/errno.h . Otherwise, see the README. See section 1.1 above for what versions of Perl won't work with Majordomo. [reported by Russell Street] You may also get problems when messages to majordomo are queued (for example if you change sendmail's behavior to always queue messages rather than perform immediate delivery). The problem was that if sendmail queues a message it smashes the case in command lines and addresses when the queue gets processed. This is in spite of the lines shown by mailq. This is sendmail 5.x on Solaris 2.3, but it might apply to other versions of sendmail. 2.5 - I get an error "insecure usage" from the wrapper The argument to "wrapper" should be simply be the command, not the full path to the command. "wrapper" has where to look compiled in to it (the "W_HOME" setting in the Makefile) and for security reasons will not let you specify another directory. Your alias should say for example: |"/path/to/majordomo/wrapper majordomo" 2.6 - I get "majordomo: No such file or directory" from the wrapper Make sure that the #! statement at the beginning of all the Majordomo Perl executables contain the correct path to the perl program (the default is /usr/local/bin/perl). Note many UNIXes have a 32 character limit on that path -- make sure it doesn't exceed this limit. Make sure also that majordomo and all the related scripts are in the W_HOME directory as defined in the Makefile when you compiled the wrapper. 2.7 - I get an error "Can't locate majordomo.pl" [from Brent Chapman] Majordomo adds "$homedir" from the majordomo.cf file to the @INC array before it goes looking for "majordomo.pl". Since it's not finding it, I'd guess you have one of two problems: 1) $homedir is set improperly (or not set at all; there is no default) in your majordomo.cf file. 2) majordomo.pl is not in $homedir, or is not readable. [from John P. Rouillard] 3) Note that the new majordomo.cf file checks to see if the environment variable $HOME is set first, and uses that for $homedir. Since the wrapper always sets HOME to the correct directory, you get a nice default, unless you are running a previously built wrapper, in which case you may get the wrong directory. [from Andreas Fenner] 4) I had the same problem when I installed majordomo (1.62). My Problem was a missing ";" in the majordomo.cf file - just in the line before setting homedir .... My hint for you: Check your perl-files carefully. 2.8 - I told my majordomo.cf where to archive the list, why isn't it working? [From John Rouillard] The archive variables in majordomo.cf aren't used to archive anything. You have to use a separate archive program, or a sendmail alias to do the archiving. The info is used to generate a directory where the archive files are being placed by some other mechanism. You are telling majordomo to look in the directory: /usr/local/mail/majordomo/archive/listname for files that it should allow to be gotten using the get command. Majordomo comes with three different archive programs that run under wrapper, that do various types of archiving. Look in the contrib directory. 2.9 - config-test can't seem to find ctime.pl or resend can't find getopts.pl ctime.pl and getopts.pl are included in the standard Perl distribution. If it can't find it, it means Perl was not installed correctly. Re-install Perl. (you may want to take the opportunity to upgrade Perl, too) 2.10 - A list is visible via lists, but can't subscribe or 'get' files [From Brent Chapman] I'll bet your list name has capital letters in it... Majordomo smashes all list names to all-lower-case before attempting to use the list name as part of a filename. So, while it's OK to advertise (for instance) "Majordomo-Users" and have the headers say "Majordomo-Users", the file names and archive directory names themselves all need to be in lower case. If you want to use mixed case, simply configure the list using the lower-case names everywhere, except put the mixed-case version in the "-l" and "-h" flags to resend. 2.11 - I get "sh: wrapper not available for sendmail programs" You're on a system which uses smrsh. (sendmail restricted shell). You have to configure smrsh to allow it to execute the wrapper. Normally this is done by creating a symlink in /var/adm/sm.bin to Majordomo's wrapper program. 2.12 - I get "Aliasing/Forwarding Loop Broken" [ Reported by Wade Williams ] Some people have noted sendmail will generate a bounce message if you send to a list, but the list file is empty (there are no subscribers). Add a subscriber to the list and the error should go away. _________________________________________________________________ Section 3: Setting up mailing lists and aliases 3.1 - How do I direct bounces to the right address? You should use 'resend' to filter all messages. Make sure the "sender" variable in the list config file points to "owner-listname" and that you have defined the "owner-listname" alias to point to the owner of the list. What this does is force outgoing mail to have the out-of-band envelope FROM be "owner-listname", and thus all bounces will be redirected to that address. (This address is what gets copied into the message body as the "From " or "Return-Path:" header). 'resend' also inserts a "Sender:" line with the same address to help people identify where it came from, but that header is not used in the bounce process. If you are using sendmail v8.x, you don't have to use 'resend' to do the same thing. You simply have to define an alias like this: owner-sample: joe, Note the trailing comma is necessary to prevent sendmail from resolving the alias first before putting it in the header. Without the comma, it will put "joe" in the envelope from instead of "owner-sample". Either address will work, of course, but the generic address is preferred should the owner ever change. However if you choose not to use 'resend', you will have to do without most of majordomo's other features like moderating, administrivia checks, and others. 3.2 - Semi-automated handling of bounced mail This is not true automation of bounced mail. What this does is the next best thing. You unsubscribe the user from the list, but add the user to a special 'bounces' list (there's a perl script in the distribution called bounce you run to make this easier) The majordomo maintainer then runs (out of cron) the 'bounce-remind' script periodically, which sends mail to all the people on the bounces list, saying essentially "you were removed from list 'foo' because mail to you bounced. To subscribe yourself back to the list, send the following commands ...". There's no facility yet for trimming the bounces list, but it's easy to write one because the date the person was added to the bounces list is included (so you could write a perl script which removes anyone on the list for more than one week, assuming you run bounce-remind more than once a week). There's no facility for automatically detecting what addresses are failing. You have to determine that based on the bounce messages you receive from other sites. [From John Rouillard] Just create a mailing list called "bounces". I usually set mine up as an auto list just to make life easier. All that "bounce" script does is create an email message to majordomo that says: approve [passwd] unsubscribe [listname] [address] approve [passwd] subscribe bounces [address] The [address] and [listname], are given on the command line to bounce. The address of the majordomo, and the passwords are retrieved from the .majordomo file in your home directory. A sample .majordomo file might look like (shamelessly stolen from the comments at the top of the bounce script): this-list passwd1 Majordomo@This.COM other-list passwd2 Majordomo@Other.COM bounces passwd3 Majordomo@This.COM bounces passwd4 Majordomo@Other.COM A command of "bounce this-list user@fubar.com" will mail the following message to Majordomo@This.COM: approve passwd1 unsubscribe this-list user@fubar.com approve passwd3 subscribe bounces user@fubar.com (930401 this-list) while a command of "bounce other-list user@fubar.com" will mail the following message to Majordomo@Other.COM: approve passwd2 unsubscribe other-list user@fubar.com approve passwd4 subscribe bounces user@fubar.com (930401 this-list) Note that the date and the list the user was bounced from are included as a comment in the address used for the "subscribe bounces" command. 3.3 - What's this Owner-List and List-Owner stuff? Why both? [From David Barr] The "standard" is spelled out in RFC 1211 - "Problems with the Maintenance of Large Mailing Lists". It's here where the "owner-listname" and "listname-request" concepts got their start. (well it was before this, but this is where it was first spelled out) Personally, I don't use "listname-owner" anywhere. You don't really have to put both, since the "owner" alias is usually only for bounces, which you add automatically anyway with resend's "-f" flag, or having Sendmail v8.x's "owner-listname" alias. (while I'm on the subject) The "-approval" is a Majordomo-ism, and is only necessary if you want bounces and approval notices to go to different mailboxes. (though you'll have to edit some code in majordomo and request-answer if you want to get rid of the -approval alias, since it's currently hardwired in) So, to answer your question, I'd say "no". You don't have to have both. You should just have "owner-list". 3.4 - How should I configure resend for Reply-To headers? Whether you should have a "Reply-To:" or not depends on the charter of your list and the nature of its users. If the list is a discussion list and you generally want replies to go back to the list, you can include one. Some people don't like being told what to do, and prefer to be able to choose whether to send a private reply or a reply to the list just by using the right function on their mail agent. Take note that if you do use a "Reply-To:", then some mail agents make it much harder for a person on the list to send a private reply. The most important reason why Reply-To: to the list is bad is that it can cause mail loops if any of the members of your list are running fairly-common but broken software which doesn't know what an envelope address is. (Many Microsoft products, as well as many other PC-based non-SMTP/Internet mail systems which work through an SMTP gateway.) You should read the following FAQ on why you shouldn't set the Reply-To: field. http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html If you are using resend, use the 'reply_to' configuration variable in the list .config file. 3.5 - How can I hide lists so they can't be viewed by 'lists'? That is what advertise and noadvertise are for. These two variables take regular expressions that are matched against the from address of the sender. A list display follows the rules: 1. If the from address is on the list, it is shown. 2. If the from address matches a regexp in noadvertise (e.g. /.*/) the list is not shown. 3. If the advertise list is empty, the list is shown unless 2 applies. 4. If the advertise list is non-empty, the from address must match an address in advertise. Otherwise the list is not shown. Rule 2 applies, so you could allow all hosts in umb.edu except hosts in cs.umb.edu. 3.6 - How can I restrict a list such that only subscribers can send mail to the list? See the restrict_post variable in the config file. Just set it to the filename that holds the list of subscribers, which is just simply the name of the list. ("restrict-post = listname"). However, there is a problem with either of these methods. Majordomo works by filtering the messages coming in through the "listname" alias, doing its dirty work, then passing the resulting message out to another alias you define like "listname-outgoing". If you trust people to not send mail directly to the "listname-outgoing" alias, then you'll be fine. If however you're not trusting, there are several steps to make sure people don't bypass the restrictions of the list. There are several methods. First you need to change your "listname-outgoing" alias such that it is not obvious. (That means don't use something easy to guess like "-outgoing" or "-list"). Next, you need to make it such that people can't find out what your -outgoing alias is. You can use the "@filename" directive in resend to move the command-line options of resend into a file readable only by the majordomo user/group. This will make it such that you can't find out the -outgoing address by connecting to your mailer and doing an EXPN or VRFY. The "@filename" directive seems to have fallen into undocumentation for some reason. This should be fixed in future releases. This doesn't prevent a user reading the local /etc/aliases file (if they can), however. Another approach is to simply disable EXPN or VRFY altogether. See the documentation for your mailer on how to do this. However this doesn't prevent a local user reading of the aliases file. This isn't generally a problem if your mail server is restricted to staff only users. Sendmail 8.x will unfortunately log your -outgoing alias in the "Received:" lines. To prevent this you need to specify more than one address for the list name argument to resend. (for example "mylist:|"/usr/local/lib/majordomo/wrapper resend -h foo.org -l mylist mylist-seekrit,nobody"" where nobody is an alias for /dev/null) For Sendmail 8.x you must not define an alias 'owner-mylist-seekrit' to be something like 'owner-mylist,' (with the commma). Otherwise sendmail will set the envelope address of outgoing mail to contain your secret outgoing alias. Again if you're using the @filename directive, the entire command line is simply put into the specified file (starting with "-h foo.org ...". Finally it should be noted that it is impossible with any method to prevent people from forging mail as someone on the list, and sending to the list that way. 3.7 - Can I have the list owner or approval person be changeable without intervention from the Majordomo owner? Sure! Just make owner-listname and/or listname-approval be another majordomo list. (probably hidden, for simplicity's sake) 3.8 - What are all these different passwords? Think of three separate passwords: 1. A master password that can be used by both resend and majordomo contained in [listname].passwd. To be used by the master list manager when using writeconfig commands etc. This allows someone who handles a number of mailing lists all using the same password. This is also a "backup password" in case the .config file gets corrupted. 2. A password for the manager of this one list. The admin_passwd can be used by subsidiary majordomo list maintainers. 3. A password for those concerned with the list content (approve_passwd) This way the administration and moderation functions can be split. The original reason for maintaining [listname].passwd was to allow a new config file to be put in if the config file was trashed and the admin_password was obliterated, and may still be useful to allow a single password to be used for admin functions by the majordomo admin or some other "superadmin". Note that the admin passwd in the config file is not a file name, but the password itself. This is the only way that the list-maintainer could change the password since they wouldn't have access to the file. 3.9 - How do I tell majordomo to handle "get"-ing of binary files? Majordomo is not designed to be a general-purpose file-by-mail system. If you want to do anything more than trivial "get"-ing of text files (archives, etc) than you should get and install ftpmail. Majordomo has hooks to allow transparent access to files via ftpmail (see majordomo.cf). See the beginning of this FAQ for where to get ftpmail. 3.10 - How do I set up a moderated list? First, you need to tell Majordomo that the list is moderated. In the configuration file for the list, you set "moderate = yes". Do not try to use the now-deprecated "-A" option to resend. In fact you shouldn't be using ANY options to resend except "-h" and "-l", since all the others are handled in the config file. Any mail which is not "approved", gets bounced with "Approval required". If the moderator wishes to approve the message for the list, then you need to tag the message as "approved" and send it to the list. The "approve" script which comes with Majordomo does this for you. If you don't have access to "approve" (e.g. you're not on a UNIX system with Perl), you have to do it by hand. The easiest way is to forward the original message to the list, add the line "Approved: approval-password" to the very first line of the body, and then the entire contents of the original message. (meaning there should not be a blank line before and after the "Approved:" line.) 3.11 - How do I set up a digested version of a list? [ Modified from explanation given by jmb@kryten.atinc.com (Jonathan M. Bresler)] * Create aliases for the mailing list and the digest. See section 2.2 of the README for an example. * create an alias for the majordom(o) user, so that his cron generated mail comes to me, rather than just piling up in /usr/local/mail/majordom. * create the list's and the digest's files, (widget, widget-digest, widget.config, widget-digest.config, etc.). Edit the widget-digest.config file and make sure all the digest options are set to your tastes. * create the digest directory and archive directory. See FAQ section 2 on how to set permissions on all majordomo files and directories. You must have archives if you have digests so the digester can make the digest. You can purge the archive after the digest is generated. * Add yourself to both the mailing list and its digest so you can monitor what happens...at least for a while (not a bad idea to create a dummy user, and subscribe him to both the mailing list and its digest. This preserves a record of messages for debugging. Don't forget to remove this account and unsubscribe it after debugging.) * Optionally you may use cron to send a mkdigest to push out a digest at set intervals regardless of the number of queued messages. See the question Why aren't my digests going out?". 3.12 - How do I setup virtual majordomo domains? [From Alan Millar, et. al.] Set up a majordomo.cf file for each virtual domain, defining $whereami as appropriate. Use your mailer's virtual domain stuff to get to it, making an alias for it if necessary. For sendmail, be sure to check out http://www.sendmail.org/virtual-hosting.html first. Alias entry: majordomo-domain2: |/your/wrapper majordomo -C /your/domain2.cf Virtual domain stuff (in your virtusertable): majordomo@domain2 majordomo-domain2 majordomo-owner@domain2 whoever I use the sendmail virtual domain examples right off the Sendmail FAQ. Works for me. You'll need to modify request-answer slightly if you want the virtual host to be used there in replies. Look for: From: $list-request in the source and change it to: From: $list-request\@$whereami Don't forget to use the -C option to request-answer for your virutal aliases. Check out http://o2.towery.com/~eernestm/admin/majordomo/majorvirt.html also for good instructions on configuring virtual domains with Majordomo. 3.13 - How can I stop people from using my mailing list to spam my subscribers? [From mcr@solidum.com (Michael Richardson) ] There are two approaches to solving spam. They are complementary. The most general solution is to make sure that your list host will not accept spam. See http://spam.abuse.net/ for extensive recipies on this. The majordomo specific way is to use the "restrict_post" mechanism to disallow posts from addresses that are not on the list. Please see section 3.6 for some of the pitfalls of using restrict_post. They all apply. My experience is that spammers have not yet learnt about the "-outgoing" alias, and the techniques in section 3.6 would apply when they do. The major objection to using restrict_post to deflect spam is that it may deflect posts from legitimate people -- people who've subscribed with one address but are posting from another address. It may also restrict cross-posts from other lists, or from people who read the list via news. The solution to the above objections is twofold: 1. the moderator must forward legitimate posts. This can be a pain, but it does work. 2. the restrict_post header can be extended. The typical way to do #2 is to set restrict_post to: mylist:mylist-nomail Then, create a configuration file and password for "mylist-nomail", but DO NOT create any aliases. (If you use something like mj_build_aliases, then don't set the owner) The moderator, or subscribers may then subscribe themselves to this second list. Subscribers to the -nomail list will then be allowed to post to the first list, but won't receive duplicate copies of the first list. _________________________________________________________________ Section 4: Mailer and list admininistration problems 4.1 - Address with blanks are being treated separately If a subscriber to the list is John Doe < jdoe@node.com> it gets treated these as the three addresses: John Doe < jdoe@node.com> [From Alan Millar] Majordomo does not treat these as three addresses. Apparently your mailer does. Remember that all Majordomo does is add and remove addresses from a list. Majordomo does not interpret the contents of the list for message distribution; the system mailer (such as sendmail) does. I'm using SMail3 instead of sendmail, and it has an alternative (read "stupid") view of how mixed angle-bracketed and non-angle-bracketed addresses should be interpreted. I found that putting a comma at the end of each line was effective to fix the problem, and I got to keep my comments. So I patched Majordomo to add the comma at the end of each address it writes to the list file. You can also change to "strip = yes" in the config file so that none of the addresses are angle-bracketed. 4.2 - Why aren't my digests going out? [from John Rouillard] echo mkdigest [digest-name] [digest-password] | mail majordomo@... This will force a digest to be created. Or you can set the max size in the digest list config file down low, and force automatic generation. 4.3 - Why do I get duplicate mail sent to the list? If you're running MMDF, read on: [From Gunther Anderson] Well, I can tell you what happened to me recently. We use MMDF here, which certainly colors the picture a little. What was happening here was that MMDF was verifying the validity of the whole mailing list before returning from the Submit call. The thing calling the Submit would time out and close, but the Submit itself would still be running somewhere. The calling routine would believe that the message had failed in its delivery, but the Submit would eventually succeed. The calling process would try again some time later. This, of course, is bad. The larger the list got, the more addresses there were to verify (verification was really just a DNS search on the target machine name), the more likely, under load, that the message would duplicate. We finally got so large, with so many international addresses (which seem to timeout on DNS queries much more ofen than US addresses) that we were always duplicating. Infinitely (until I killed the original submitter). The solution for us was MMDF-specific. We used a different channel for submission and delivery, one which deliberately doesn't verify the addresses before accepting a job. We used the list-processor channel, and only had to check that the listname-request name was set properly, because list-processor insists on making listname-request the envelope "From " header name. If you're running Sendmail, this is more rare. There have been unconfirmed reports that on some systems having the queue process interval set too short can cause problems, even though sendmail is supposed to handle this. Workarounds are to increase your queue process interval (-q flag), or decrease the interval between queue checkpoints (OC flag in sendmail.cf). There have been many reports from Linux users complaining about duplicate mail. The problem seems to be that flock() under Linux is broken. This may be fixed in a future release, but for now in sendmail's conf.h in the #ifdef __linux__ section add a line #define HASFLOCK 0. There are also reports that some versions of the libc have problems, and that linking with the libresolv.a from a recent BIND version will work around the problem. [ Please let me know if you have any more information --ed ] 4.4 - How do I gate my list to and/or from a newsgroup? The easiest method is to use a program called newsgate. You can find it at ftp://ftp.isc.org/isc/inn/contrib/. Installation instructions are straightforward, it provides sample entires for your newsfeeds/sys file and aliases entries. The newsgate package includes news2mail and mail2news. 4.5 - How can I improve Majordomo's performance? Mail to list throughput Majordomo does very little except pass each message to the list through 'resend', and then pass it on to your mailer for distribution. Improving your mailer is the first step to improving speed of delivery of mail to the list. Upgrading your sendmail to version 8.x will improve things greatly, as this version has a lot of enhancements which use connections more efficiently. For most lists, this is enough. Majordomo itself doesn't use very much in the way of resources except perhaps memory. Adding more memory will help if your machine does a lot of paging during mail delivery. Using other mailers instead of sendmail like ZMailer has met with varying success. Exim can also be used (see http://www.exim.org/. qmail has been used with majordomo, and performance with either Exim or qmail I'm told generally will well exceed that of sendmail. At least qmail also is written in a far more secure way than sendmail (some would say paranoid). See http://www.qmail.org. The qmail site includes at least one way to get majordomo to work with qmail. Note that it is possible to get majordomo working under qmail without using the 'wrapper', which is a nice idea. Some majordomo-under-qmail solutions just involve qmail's sendmail emulation feature. For more info, see the Using Majordomo with qmail FAQ, written by Russ Allbery. If your lists are very large you may try installing bulk_mailer, by Keith Moore. It pre-sorts the list into chunks grouped by site, and passes the resulting chunks off to individual sendmail processes for delivery (see note next paragraph). Get it from ftp://cs.utk.edu/pub/moore/bulk_mailer/. It installs simply by replacing your usual -outgoing alias with (line wrapped for clarity): sample-outgoing: |"/path/to/bulk_mailer owner-sample@your.site /path/to/lists/sample" bulk_mailer has reportedly resulted in dramatic speedups in delivery times, on the order of several times faster. Note this works just as well on digested lists as well as normal lists. bulk_mailer did have one problem. Until version 1.3 it didn't understand parenthesized comments in addresses, resulting in incorrect sorting and reduced performance. Your list must be configured with strip=yes in the configuration file if you don't upgrade to 1.3. TLB is another package which is like bulk_mailer, but has other features. You can get it from ftp://ftp.hpc.uh.edu/pub/tlb/. The advantage of TLB is its greater configuration flexibility, and also the fact that it's possible with TLB to eliminate the -outgoing address, making configuration easier and lists more secure. The restrict_post list option with large lists can cause a significant slowdown in mail delivery, since resend has to do a sequential search through the subscription list for each mail sent to the list (to verify that the sender is subscribed to the list). Think twice about using this option with very large lists. Majordomo command processing Most of the improvements in this are are experimental and not widely available or not yet completed but scheduled for future releases. Some areas include: improvements in shlock.pl to use exponential backoffs to reduce contention and starvation of locks, using some sort of dbz-style database for subscription lists to speed up subscribe and unsubscribe commands, and changes in the configuration file system to allow faster parsing and faster execution of certain commands such as "lists". If you are interested in working on improvements in this area, join the majordomo-workers list mentioned above. If you make any specific patches or additions available, please let me know so I can add references to it here. 4.6 - How can I handle X.400 addresses? Majordomo by default treats addresses starting with "/" as "hostile", and won't let people subscribe. This is to prevent someone from subscribing a majordomo-owned filename to the list, and being able to write by sending mail to the list. Unfortunately, all X.400 addresses begin with a "/". See the $no_x400at and $no_true_x400 variables and the associated comments in the majordomo.cf. There is a reported bug in 1.94 - you may need to change both tests for these variables in majordomo.pl to put "main'" before them. Like this: if (!$main'no_x400at) { if (!$main'no_true_x400) { This is fixed in Majordomo 1.94.1 and higher. 4.7 - Why is the Subject of my messages missing? [from Dave Wolfe] But it's not. Oh, you probably mean "Why is the subject line of messages to my moderated list blank?" Because you didn't include any headers after the Approved: header in the body of the messages. Or you deleted them when you approved the bounced messages. When resend finds an Approved: header in the first line of the body, it throws away all the headers it's collected for the message and looks for more headers following the Approved: header (which is the format of a bounced message). So if you put the Approved: header in an original message (as opposed to a bounced message), you have to also fill in some headers to be sent out, such as Subject:, To:, and From:. See the file Doc/list-owner-info on the correct procedure(s) for approving mail with Majordomo. 4.8 - I'm getting mail from majordomo with "BOUNCE:" what do I do? How do I stop this? Whenever majordomo encounters mail to the list which it sees a problem with, it forwards it to person at the approval address to deal with manually. There are lots of reasons Majordomo does this. Majordomo will tell you why in the Subject of the message. Here's a list of the most common bounce reasons: An "Admin request" bounce means that the list is configured to filter out what it thinks are "administrivia" messages, and it thought that message was one. These are messages such as "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" or "help", which get sent to the list instead of majordomo. Lists generally have this turned on by default. If you don't like it, set "administrivia=no" in the list config file. If that doesn't work, check your aliases to make sure the "-s" option to resend isn't being used on that list. An "Approval required" bounce means that the list is moderated, and the message needs to be approved. (see section 3.10 of this FAQ) A "Message too long" bounce means that the message was longer than the "maxlength" setting in the list config file. If you get any of these bounces messages and you think the mail is OK to send to the list, you'll need to approve it. See the file Doc/list-owner-info on the correct procedure(s) for approving mail with Majordomo. It's also covered in section 3.10 of this FAQ. 4.9 - My list configuration doesn't seem to be working. If you changed your list configuration and the list doesn't seem to be behaving any differently, make sure that the list is being sent through "resend". See the installation documentation and section 3.1 of this FAQ on how to set up the aliases for the list correctly to pipe mail through "resend". Other things to check would be that the arguments to "resend" are only "-h", and "-l" (and perhaps "-C" if you use virtual domains). resend used to be configured with other command line flags to do things such as have moderated lists. However these flags override any config file settings, so remove them if they are present. All configuration should be done now through the config file. 4.10 - How do I set it up so that the originator of a message doesn't get a copy of his/her own message back? You can't. Sorry. The "metoo" setting in sendmail has no effect after a message is piped through an external program. Unless you're willing to give up piping messages through "resend", there's no way to stop this. 4.11 - With Smail or Exim, users subscribing to a list sometimes get mail sent before they subscribed [from Lazlo Nibble and Philip Hazel] This is due to the way Smail and Exim deliver mail. With sendmail, it expands its delivery list when the mail first arrives. If the list gets changed, the message will still get delivered to the original recipient list, since the original list is never referred to again. As sendmail delivers mail, it removes addresses from its expanded list as they get delivered. However Smail and Exim don't expand the list when the message is first queued. Instead as they go through the queue of pending messages to deliver, and maintain state on what addresses they have successfully delivered mail to and compare that with the current list contents. As long as the message is queued waiting for one or more addresses in the list, it will get sent to any new recipients whenever the queue gets processed next. This is rather unexpected for those used to sendmail's behavior. The advantage of smail and exim's approach is that if an address in your list is unreachable (or has a bad .forward file), you can change the list contents (or the .forward file) and the message will be delivered to the new address when the queue next gets processed. It won't deliver to the old, bad address. There really isn't an easy solution to this, but it's really not a serious problem. 4.12 - Majordomo doesn't seem to work with sendmail 8.9 Several people have reported that sendmail 8.9 apparently drops mail from majordomo lists. The new security features of sendmail don't allow :include: directories to be group writeable. Unfortunately, by default these directories are group writeable with Majordomo. The solution appears to be to add: O DontBlameSendmail=groupwritabledirpathsafe in your sendmail.cf and restart sendmail. This path is the path to the majordomo lists directory. Another method which also works is to remove the group-write bit on the lists directory. If majordomo is working correctly having group write permission is not necessary. However, some people find it convenient to have group-write access so the majordomo maintainer can be put in the majordomo group and not need root access all the time to work on majordomo. From majordomo-users-owner Mon Jul 20 11:30:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA06900; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us (cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us [147.144.1.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA06893 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jjah@localhost) by cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA10600 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:22:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joe R. Jah" Reply-To: "Joe R. Jah" To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Where is every body? In-Reply-To: <199807161519.IAA04049@ssol020.sandiegoca.ncr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Folks, I haven't received any messages from this list since last Thursday; Where is every body? Joe _/ _/_/_/ _/ ____________ __o _/ _/ _/ _/ ______________ _-\<,_ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ ......(_)/ (_) _/_/ oe _/ _/. _/_/ ah jjah@cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 21 01:25:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA25274; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 01:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id BAA24842 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 01:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Japan.Sun.COM ([129.158.31.2]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id BAA16334; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 01:19:23 -0700 Received: from kirin.Japan.Sun.COM by Japan.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4-sd.fkk200) id RAA16824; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:18:14 +0900 Received: by kirin.Japan.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA14732; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:16:12 +0900 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:16:12 +0900 From: Hiroyuki.Yamada@Japan.Sun.COM (Hiroyuki Yamada) Message-Id: <199807210816.RAA14732@kirin.Japan.Sun.COM> To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Cc: "Roger B.A. Klorese" In-reply-to: "Roger B.A. Klorese"'s message of 14 Jul 1998 23:19:46 +0900 Subject: Re: FAQ 2.12 - I get "Aliasing/Forwarding Loop Broken" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ] From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" ] On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Hiroyuki Yamada wrote: ] > 550 :include:/usr/local/mail/lists/test... Cannot open /usr/local/mail/lists/test: Group writable directory ] Isn't this pretty clear? Sendmail 8.9 does not allow you to put lists in ] group-writeable directories, unles you set the correct DontBlameSendmail ] option. Thanks. I inserted the following sentence into sendmail.cf and restrated the sendmail. O DontBlameSendmail=/usr/local/mail/lists/tsds Then I got 'unrecognized' errors below. 554 /etc/sendmail.cf: line 336: readcf: DontBlameSendmail option: usr unrecognized 554 /etc/sendmail.cf: line 336: readcf: DontBlameSendmail option: local unrecognized 554 /etc/sendmail.cf: line 336: readcf: DontBlameSendmail option: mail unrecognized 554 /etc/sendmail.cf: line 336: readcf: DontBlameSendmail option: lists unrecognized 554 /etc/sendmail.cf: line 336: readcf: DontBlameSendmail option: tsds unrecognized Anything that I'm forgetting ? Regards, hiro From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 21 13:40:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA05399; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA05391 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thetube.tube.com (thetube.tube.com [209.135.70.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA18096 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by thetube.tube.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id UAA25451 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:38:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "andy" Message-Id: <9807202038.ZM25449@thetube.tube.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:38:28 -0400 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk MAJORDOMO ABORT (mj_majordomo)!! Can't append to /majordomo-1.94.4/lists/canada3000: File exists I get this message when trying to subscribe to the list! we are running Irix 5.3 and an older sendmail with perl 5.004 -- andrew Bongard Tube-e Communications T1 Direct e-mail: andrew@tube.com WWW: http://www.tube.com WWW: http://www.shopcanada.com (416) 784-1233 (416) 784-2017 Fax ----------------------------------------------- Custom Corporate World Wide Web (WWW) sites ----------------------------------------------- Full Internet access ----------------------------------------------- From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 21 13:53:40 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA05322; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA05314 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bdg.centrin.net.id (bdg.centrin.net.id [202.146.253.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA02447 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 02:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807180924.CAA02447@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from anybody ([202.146.253.250]) by bdg.centrin.net.id (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with ESMTP id AAD17416 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:28:08 +0700 From: "Junaedy J." To: Subject: restrict posting - attachments Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:50:23 +0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, If I want to restrict the subscriber of my list from sending attachment, how should I write it in taboo_header? The header of posting which contains attachment usually has something that read like this: "Content-Type: multipart/mixed" Should I write it this way: /multipart/mixed/i /^content-type:\s\bmultipart/mixed/i I am confused how to differ a character "/" between the word "multipart" and "mixed" and the character "/" that is intended as the end of regular expression. Would anyone help me please? :) best regards, Júnaëdy PS. Please Cc: your reply to me cause I am not in the list. From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 21 14:09:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA05287; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA05277 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:28:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thanatos.clara.net (thanatos.clara.net [195.8.69.60]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA09421 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15765 invoked from network); 17 Jul 1998 19:51:27 -0000 Received: from du-2616.claranet.co.uk (HELO zucko.clara.net) (195.8.82.146) by mail.clara.net with SMTP; 17 Jul 1998 19:51:27 -0000 Received: from zucko.clara.net (zucko.clara.net [192.168.0.100]) by zucko.clara.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id UAA00384 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 20:50:32 +0100 From: Danny Horne To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Just point me in the right direction,,,please!! Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:39:29 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 0.6.5] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <98071719503101.00377@zucko.clara.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ok,, I've read all the readme's, FAQ's and other bits, but Majordomo still doesn't work 100%. The listserver itself is running, and I'm able to subscribe to the test mailing list I've created. But any mail I send to the list disappears down a black hole. I've set all the list directories & files to User Majordomo, Group Majordomo (user/group R/W). I'm running Sendmail 8.9.0. I know I need DontBlameSendmail options, can anyone tell me exactly which ones? Please don't tell me to read the manual again, because I've read it, and AFAICT done everything it wants. Any help will be appreciated -- Windows 98: n 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition. From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 21 14:24:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA05348; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA05340 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pop1.gmx.net (pop1.gmx.net [194.97.64.131]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id JAA20184 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 09:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2164 invoked by alias); 19 Jul 1998 16:49:53 -0000 Message-ID: <19980719164953.2163.qmail@pop1.gmx.net> From: "laus" To: "majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM" Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 18:48:51 +0200 Reply-To: "laus" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Standard (2.01.1600) For Windows 95 (4.0.1111) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Our Majordomo worked quite good until last week, when it began returning the following bounce message without any obvious changes in the system configuration. Can anybody explain me the error "Admin request of type /\buns\w*b/i at line 5 " ??? Return-Path: Received: (from mdom@localhost) by mcpina.medicomp.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20268; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:29:44 +0200 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:29:44 +0200 From: mlaus@mcpina.medicomp.de Message-Id: <199807131129.NAA20268@mcpina.medicomp.de> To: mlaus@medicomp.de Subject: BOUNCE adlernews@medicomp.de: Admin request of type /\buns\w*b/i at line 5 X-UIDL: d1c5d738646f04d7ff474c696d4d8df1 Status: O X-Status: >From owner-adlernews@mcpina.medicomp.de Mon Jul 13 13:29:43 1998 Received: from localhost (laus@localhost) by mcpina.medicomp.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA20264 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:29:43 +0200 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:29:43 +0200 (CEST) From: Martin Laus To: adlernews@mcpina.medicomp.de Subject: Blau-Weiss-Rot Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII -- Martin Laus laus@gmx.de From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 21 14:38:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA05388; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA05376 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inf1.infoserv.net (inf1.infoserv.net [200.34.71.213]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA07918 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alex.infoserv.net ([200.34.71.200]) by inf1.infoserv.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-52532U15000L15000S0V35) with SMTP id AAA6363 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:59:56 -0600 Message-ID: <35B39F87.6959@compuserve.com.mx> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:50:31 -0600 From: aflores@compuserve.com.mx (Alejandro Flores) Reply-To: AFlores@compuserve.com.mx X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: HELP!!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi there! Please i need help!!! I installed majordomo 1.94.4 all the process was ok, i follow carefully all the procedure in Install file, finally i create a list, no problem the people can join to the list whitout problem, but the problem comes when a user send a message to the list, I can access as root and i found a mail like this: The original message was received at Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:09:08 -0500 from majordom@localhost ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications ----- monitor-list (unrecoverable error) :include:/usr/test/majordomo/lists/monitor (unrecoverable error) (expanded from: monitor-list) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 :include:/usr/test/majordomo/lists/monitor... Cannot open /usr/test/majordom o/lists/monitor: Permission denied 554 monitor-list... aliasing/forwarding loop broken 550 you... User unknown --MAB07537.900954548/webserver.monitor.com.mx Content-Type: message/delivery-status In theory all the permissions are correct, i checked this using ./wrapper config-test as a normal user and no problem.. PLEASE I NEED HELP I am using Linux thanks in advance From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 21 14:53:40 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA05309; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA05299 for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.37]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA28676 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 20:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from well.com ([12.64.39.164]) by mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.03 118 118 102) with ESMTP id <19980718032039.ZRNB25248@well.com> for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:20:39 +0000 Message-ID: <35B01430.127C73AD@well.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 20:19:12 -0700 From: tony X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Bounces due to commands in text Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am the administrator of two private lists on an ISP which uses Majordomo V1.94 (with a few local changes). I do not have direct access to the config file itself, but I can set certain parameters for my lists through an interface provided by the ISP. The ones which may be of interest here are: subscribe_policy [closed] unsubscribe_policy [open] restrict_post [yes] reply_to_list [yes] administrivia [yes] x_accesses [list] In the past, I have received several bounces of messages addressed to the lists because they contained such words as "help" and "subscribe" within the message, and which presumably were interpreted as requests to Majordomo to do something it obviously could not. I don't understand why that should be so: requests are addressed to Majordomo@list. (which is supposed to interpret requests) and messages are addressed to @list. (which is supposed to route messages). Or am I unclear on the concept? And is there anything that can be done to avoid the problem? It is awkward, to say the least, to ask subscribers to avoid certain special words; they have all they can do to just keep up with the mailing process. Thanks to one and all. Tony Roder From majordomo-users-owner Tue Jul 21 21:09:52 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA10224; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from praline.no.neosoft.com (praline.no.NeoSoft.COM [206.27.160.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id UAA10217 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:56:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24020 invoked by uid 10086); 22 Jul 1998 04:00:47 -0000 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:00:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Ray Jones To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Ray Jones wrote: > help > quit Sorry about that. It was a "misdirected" message. -- Regards, "Big Ray the Cab Driver" Jones - Licensed Tour Guide ICQ UIN 1473313 Author of "The Complete Id