From majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Aug 1 10:35:30 2007 X-Greylist: delayed 106 seconds by postgrey-1.24 at mycroft; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 10:35:29 PDT Received: from alpha.redeemer.ca (redeemer.on.ca [205.211.11.1]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B4013D80C8 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2007 10:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by alpha.redeemer.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEBAA79E249 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2007 13:56:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alpha.redeemer.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (alpha.redeemer.ca [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04080-96 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2007 13:56:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Infotech (unknown [10.0.0.38]) by alpha.redeemer.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C3D79E248 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2007 13:56:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "Chris Knowles" To: Subject: Re: outgoing address compromised Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 13:37:01 -0400 Message-ID: <007f01c7d462$918f4e40$b4adeac0$@ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcfUYpGDWDsCsFklQxunx3uEt6Hsfg== Content-Language: en-us X-Archive-Number: 200708/1 X-Sequence-Number: 5626 I recently discovered that some viruses had harvested the list-outgoing address from some of my mailing lists. After searching the majordomo-users archive I found others who had encountered similar problems. I'm running majordomo-1.94.5 with postfix so the sendmail solutions didn't work for me. Though the concept does translate. The messages are typically using forged headers with return-mail addresses of innocent 3rd parties. Instead of trying to direct the message via an "error: nouser User unknown" bounce to the innocent 3rd party, I elected to create a canonical recipient map table containing all of the -outgoing aliases on my server (over 30) and redirect them to "junkmaster". This user is then aliased to /dev/null. This way the viruses/spam sent directly to the list are quietly dropped. In my main.cf file I added the line: recipient_canonical_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/recipient_canonical_map and recipient_canonical_map contains lines similar to the following: # canonical names to redirect messages sent directly to "list-outgoing" # test-outgoing junkmaster staff-outgoing junkmaster parttime-outgoing junkmaster This list is then compiled using the postmap command /etc/aliases entry is: # # Junk messages that are sent to -outgoing junkmaster: /dev/null I hope this is useful to others who encounter this problem. Chris Knowles Redeemer University College Ancaster, Ontario Canada From majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Aug 1 12:21:27 2007 X-Greylist: delayed 768 seconds by postgrey-1.24 at mycroft; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 12:21:22 PDT Received: from hercules.bankrupt.com (hercules.bankrupt.com [67.101.12.59]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37319D807F for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2007 12:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Bacchus.bankrupt.com ([192.168.0.243]) by hercules.bankrupt.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l71J8UZH038992 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2007 15:08:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from peter@bankrupt.com) Message-Id: <200708011908.l71J8UZH038992@hercules.bankrupt.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 15:08:26 -0400 To: From: "Peter A. Chapman" Subject: Re: outgoing address compromised In-Reply-To: <007f01c7d462$918f4e40$b4adeac0$@ca> References: <007f01c7d462$918f4e40$b4adeac0$@ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Archive-Number: 200708/2 X-Sequence-Number: 5627 I'm confused. If test-outgoing is aliased to /dev/null rather than include:/usr/local/majordomo/lists/test won't all e-mail messages sent to the test majordomo mailing list be sent to the big trash can in the sky? How does a legitimate e-mail message get distributed to the mailing list rather than forwarded to junkmaster? I've never used postfix. Is postfix able to flag messages sent to test-outgoing that don't originate from test? ------- At 01:37 PM 8/1/2007, Chris Knowles wrote: >I recently discovered that some viruses had harvested the list-outgoing >address from some of my mailing lists. > >After searching the majordomo-users archive I found others who had >encountered similar problems. > >I'm running majordomo-1.94.5 with postfix so the sendmail solutions didn't >work for me. >Though the concept does translate. > >The messages are typically using forged headers with return-mail addresses >of innocent >3rd parties. Instead of trying to direct the message via an "error: nouser >User unknown" bounce to >the innocent 3rd party, I elected to create a canonical recipient map table >containing >all of the -outgoing aliases on my server (over 30) and redirect them >to "junkmaster". >This user is then aliased to /dev/null. This way the viruses/spam sent >directly to the list are quietly dropped. > >In my main.cf file I added the line: > > recipient_canonical_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/recipient_canonical_map > >and recipient_canonical_map contains lines similar to the following: > > # canonical names to redirect messages sent directly to >"list-outgoing" > # > test-outgoing junkmaster > staff-outgoing junkmaster > parttime-outgoing junkmaster > >This list is then compiled using the postmap command > >/etc/aliases entry is: > > # > # Junk messages that are sent to -outgoing > junkmaster: /dev/null > >I hope this is useful to others who encounter this problem. > >Chris Knowles >Redeemer University College >Ancaster, Ontario Canada From majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 2 02:39:26 2007 X-Greylist: delayed 804 seconds by postgrey-1.24 at mycroft; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 02:39:25 PDT Received: from thin.berklix.org (thin.berklix.org [194.246.123.68]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BFC4D80B1 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 02:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A7AF1.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.122.241]) (authenticated bits=128) by thin.berklix.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l729OWH5086685 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 11:25:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l729OQeK000439 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 11:24:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost.js.berklix.net [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l729OQdK092050 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 11:24:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <200708020924.l729OQdK092050@fire.js.berklix.net> to: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: outgoing address compromised In-reply-to: <007f01c7d462$918f4e40$b4adeac0$@ca> References: <007f01c7d462$918f4e40$b4adeac0$@ca> Comments: In-reply-to "Chris Knowles" message dated "Wed, 01 Aug 2007 13:37:01 -0400." Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 11:24:26 +0200 From: "Julian H. Stacey" X-Archive-Number: 200708/3 X-Sequence-Number: 5628 "Chris Knowles" wrote: > I recently discovered that some viruses had harvested the list-outgoing > address from some of my mailing lists. Interesting, I'd like to look more, but short of time, & as you'r using Postfix & I'm using sendmail .... My solution independent of MTA=postfix uses http://www.procmail.org/ Here's my ~/.procmailrc syntax http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/src/#mail_filter http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/dots/.procmailrc.owner.dump Julian -- Julian Stacey. Munich Computer Consultant, BSD Unix C Linux. http://berklix.com Ihr Rauch=mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. Dump cigs 4 snuff. From majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Aug 2 05:19:28 2007 Received: from alpha.redeemer.ca (ns.redeemer.on.ca [205.211.11.1]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id F21F8D8113 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 05:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by alpha.redeemer.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1538079E248 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 08:43:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alpha.redeemer.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (alpha.redeemer.ca [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02706-129 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 08:43:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Infotech (unknown [10.0.0.38]) by alpha.redeemer.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB85379E244 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 08:43:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "Chris Knowles" To: References: <007f01c7d462$918f4e40$b4adeac0$@ca> <200708011908.l71J8UZH038992@hercules.bankrupt.com> In-Reply-To: <200708011908.l71J8UZH038992@hercules.bankrupt.com> Subject: Re: outgoing address compromised Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 08:22:30 -0400 Message-ID: <002b01c7d4ff$cc1cb190$645614b0$@ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcfUdI9e4paF4smVQ/6PPh3L2U1ECwAiynxw Content-Language: en-us X-Archive-Number: 200708/4 X-Sequence-Number: 5629 test-outgoing is aliased via canonical map rather than in the aliases list. In the aliases list test-outgoing includes the email addresses of the list members. The canonical recipient map is checked against traffic originating on port 25, once the message has started processing by the majordomo wrapper program it is no longer on port 25. Another way to say it is, only incoming messages on port 25 destined for test-outgoing are going to the trash bin. How does that sound? Chris -----Original Message----- From: majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com [mailto:majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com] On Behalf Of Peter A. Chapman Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 3:08 PM To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: outgoing address compromised I'm confused. If test-outgoing is aliased to /dev/null rather than include:/usr/local/majordomo/lists/test won't all e-mail messages sent to the test majordomo mailing list be sent to the big trash can in the sky? How does a legitimate e-mail message get distributed to the mailing list rather than forwarded to junkmaster? I've never used postfix. Is postfix able to flag messages sent to test-outgoing that don't originate from test? ------- At 01:37 PM 8/1/2007, Chris Knowles wrote: >I recently discovered that some viruses had harvested the list-outgoing >address from some of my mailing lists. > >After searching the majordomo-users archive I found others who had >encountered similar problems. > >I'm running majordomo-1.94.5 with postfix so the sendmail solutions didn't >work for me. >Though the concept does translate. > >The messages are typically using forged headers with return-mail addresses >of innocent >3rd parties. Instead of trying to direct the message via an "error: nouser >User unknown" bounce to >the innocent 3rd party, I elected to create a canonical recipient map table >containing >all of the -outgoing aliases on my server (over 30) and redirect them >to "junkmaster". >This user is then aliased to /dev/null. This way the viruses/spam sent >directly to the list are quietly dropped. > >In my main.cf file I added the line: > > recipient_canonical_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/recipient_canonical_map > >and recipient_canonical_map contains lines similar to the following: > > # canonical names to redirect messages sent directly to >"list-outgoing" > # > test-outgoing junkmaster > staff-outgoing junkmaster > parttime-outgoing junkmaster > >This list is then compiled using the postmap command > >/etc/aliases entry is: > > # > # Junk messages that are sent to -outgoing > junkmaster: /dev/null > >I hope this is useful to others who encounter this problem. > >Chris Knowles >Redeemer University College >Ancaster, Ontario Canada From majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 10 14:02:31 2007 X-Greylist: delayed 2635 seconds by postgrey-1.24 at mycroft; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 14:02:31 PDT Received: from mail1.gmhwh.org (mail1.gmhwh.org [216.49.176.50]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 383A2D80B6 for ; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 14:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inet-wh2.gmhwh.org (chqpvun1111.wh.ldsglobal.net [10.97.38.49]) by mail1.gmhwh.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l7AKIOME019847 for ; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 14:18:25 -0600 Received: from WH-SMTP2-MTA by inet-wh2.gmhwh.org with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 14:18:24 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 14:18:04 -0600 References: <3c9b77c60705150517y789a718bjaa09c591e8bf160d@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Groupwise 6.5 Message-ID: <20070810T141804Z_40AF00070000@ldschurch.org> From: "Charlie Smith" Subject: want to archive one copy of everything in one place To: Majordomo-Users@greatcircle.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="____QCAGCIVQZOWXQSCXWABS____" X-Disclaimer: True X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=4.65.5502:2.3.11,1.2.37,4.0.164 definitions=2007-08-10_03:2007-08-08,2007-08-10,2007-08-10 signatures=0 X-Archive-Number: 200708/5 X-Sequence-Number: 5630 --____QCAGCIVQZOWXQSCXWABS____ Content-Type: text/plain; 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Fri, 31 Aug 2007 03:20:36 PDT Received: from belfordhk.com (belfordhk.com [210.3.42.178]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8D7D816B for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2007 03:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.27] (it [192.168.0.27]) by belfordhk.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7VADa4N018281 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:13:41 +0800 X-Authentication-Warning: belfordhk.com: Host it [192.168.0.27] claimed to be [192.168.0.27] Message-ID: <46D7EA26.70409@belfordhk.com> Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:15:02 +0800 From: Edmund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.8.0.7) Gecko/20060910 SeaMonkey/1.0.5 Mnenhy/0.7.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Problem with aliases References: <6639BA20B265594590E97DD72A8EE0359DA1DA@exosw.osw.ori.local> <7.0.1.0.2.20060427104148.02314fd0@esson.net> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060427104148.02314fd0@esson.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 192.168.0.21 X-Archive-Number: 200708/6 X-Sequence-Number: 5631 Ed Kasky wrote:: > For security purposes (I think) you should add nobody to the end of this > line: > /usr/local/majordomo/wrapper resend -l test test-list,nobody I realize I'm digging up an old e-mail, but browsing the list archives for a solution to problem I'm having, I came across this post by Ed Kasky. I had changed my mailing list configurations a while ago as there seems to be some smegheads out there who found out the mailinglist owner and thusly kept on sending to a restricted mailing list. Anyway, I changed it using Ed Kasky's method (adding the nobody at the end) and noticed ever since then, the root account has been inundated by mailinglist posts. I checked the alias files and noticed that nobody was aliased to root. Is this exactly suppose to happen? If not, am I doing something wrong? I am using Sendmail w/ the latest version of Majordomo. Thanks Edmund From majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 31 04:52:36 2007 X-Greylist: delayed 1841 seconds by postgrey-1.24 at mycroft; Fri, 31 Aug 2007 04:52:36 PDT Received: from smtp1.stanford.edu (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.22.28]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053F519C235 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2007 04:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A1DC4BF0B; Fri, 31 Aug 2007 04:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tantivy.tantivy.net (tantivy.Stanford.EDU [171.66.118.251]) by smtp1.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39ABF4BE51; Fri, 31 Aug 2007 04:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tantivy.tantivy.net (techie@localhost.tantivy.net [127.0.0.1]) by tantivy.tantivy.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7VBLbF2082778; Fri, 31 Aug 2007 04:21:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from techie@tantivy.tantivy.net) Received: (from techie@localhost) by tantivy.tantivy.net (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id l7VBLb03082777; Fri, 31 Aug 2007 04:21:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from techie) From: Bob Vaughan Message-Id: <200708311121.l7VBLb03082777@tantivy.tantivy.net> Subject: Re: Problem with aliases In-Reply-To: <46D7EA26.70409@belfordhk.com> To: Edmund Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 04:21:37 -0700 (PDT) CC: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200708/7 X-Sequence-Number: 5632 > Ed Kasky wrote:: > > > For security purposes (I think) you should add nobody to the end of this > > line: > > /usr/local/majordomo/wrapper resend -l test test-list,nobody > > I realize I'm digging up an old e-mail, but browsing the list > archives for a solution to problem I'm having, I came across > this post by Ed Kasky. > > I had changed my mailing list configurations a while ago > as there seems to be some smegheads out there who found out > the mailinglist owner and thusly kept on sending to a > restricted mailing list. > > Anyway, I changed it using Ed Kasky's method (adding the > nobody at the end) and noticed ever since then, the > root account has been inundated by mailinglist posts. > I checked the alias files and noticed that nobody > was aliased to root. > > Is this exactly suppose to happen? If not, am I > doing something wrong? I am using Sendmail w/ > the latest version of Majordomo. > > Thanks > > > Edmund > alias nobody to /dev/null, and the problem will go away. -- -- Welcome My Son, Welcome To The Machine -- Bob Vaughan | techie @ tantivy.net | | P.O. Box 19792, Stanford, Ca 94309 | -- I am Me, I am only Me, And no one else is Me, What could be simpler? -- From majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 31 07:45:16 2007 X-Greylist: delayed 398 seconds by postgrey-1.24 at mycroft; Fri, 31 Aug 2007 07:45:14 PDT Received: from yoda.wrenkasky.com (esson.net [216.102.129.43]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AECFCD818D for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2007 07:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EDS.esson.net (eds.wrenkasky.com [10.10.10.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by yoda.wrenkasky.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7VEbvAR023500 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 31 Aug 2007 07:38:02 -0700 Message-Id: <200708311438.l7VEbvAR023500@yoda.wrenkasky.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 07:38:09 -0700 To: Edmund From: Ed Kasky Subject: Re: Problem with aliases Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <200708311121.l7VBLb03082777@tantivy.tantivy.net> References: <46D7EA26.70409@belfordhk.com> <200708311121.l7VBLb03082777@tantivy.tantivy.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Received-SPF: pass (yoda.wrenkasky.com: 10.10.10.11 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) X-Archive-Number: 200708/8 X-Sequence-Number: 5633 At 04:21 AM Friday, 8/31/2007, Bob Vaughan wrote -=> > > Ed Kasky wrote:: > > > > > For security purposes (I think) you should add nobody to the end of this > > > line: > > > /usr/local/majordomo/wrapper resend -l test test-list,nobody > > > > I realize I'm digging up an old e-mail, but browsing the list > > archives for a solution to problem I'm having, I came across > > this post by Ed Kasky. > > > > I had changed my mailing list configurations a while ago > > as there seems to be some smegheads out there who found out > > the mailinglist owner and thusly kept on sending to a > > restricted mailing list. > > > > Anyway, I changed it using Ed Kasky's method (adding the > > nobody at the end) and noticed ever since then, the > > root account has been inundated by mailinglist posts. > > I checked the alias files and noticed that nobody > > was aliased to root. > > > > Is this exactly suppose to happen? If not, am I > > doing something wrong? I am using Sendmail w/ > > the latest version of Majordomo. > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Edmund > > > >alias nobody to /dev/null, and the problem will go away. I had assumed that nobody was aliased to /dev/null as it is on my server. Why else what it be called nobody ;-) Ed . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Randomly Generated Quote (693 of 1261): Information is the currency of democracy. --Thomas Jefferson, third US president, architect and author (1743-1826) From majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Aug 31 19:42:24 2007 Received: from belfordhk.com (belfordhk.com [210.3.42.178]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19293D808D for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.27] (it [192.168.0.27]) by belfordhk.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l812ejVq025356 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2007 10:40:50 +0800 X-Authentication-Warning: belfordhk.com: Host it [192.168.0.27] claimed to be [192.168.0.27] Message-ID: <46D8D185.4090502@belfordhk.com> Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:42:13 +0800 From: Edmund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.8.0.7) Gecko/20060910 SeaMonkey/1.0.5 Mnenhy/0.7.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Problem with aliases References: <46D7EA26.70409@belfordhk.com> <200708311121.l7VBLb03082777@tantivy.tantivy.net> <200708311438.l7VEbvAR023500@yoda.wrenkasky.com> In-Reply-To: <200708311438.l7VEbvAR023500@yoda.wrenkasky.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 192.168.0.21 X-Archive-Number: 200708/9 X-Sequence-Number: 5634 Ed Kasky wrote:: > I had assumed that nobody was aliased to /dev/null as it is on my > server. Why else what it be called nobody ;-) > Good point. :) Thanks Bob and Ed! I just fixed that. Edmund