From majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Dec 18 08:37:49 2008 X-Greylist: delayed 586 seconds by postgrey-1.24 at mycroft; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:37:47 PST Received: from hermes1.dur.ac.uk (hermes1.dur.ac.uk [129.234.8.20]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBED4510024 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtphost3.dur.ac.uk (smtphost3.dur.ac.uk [129.234.4.55]) by hermes1.dur.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.7) with ESMTP id mBIGRlTo005617 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:27:51 GMT Received: from claus.dur.ac.uk (claus.dur.ac.uk [129.234.2.31]) by smtphost3.dur.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.7) with ESMTP id mBIGRehI029788 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:27:40 GMT Received: from claus.dur.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by claus.dur.ac.uk (8.14.2/8.11.1) with ESMTP id mBIGRdKG030473 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:27:39 GMT Received: from localhost (dcl0tdl@localhost) by claus.dur.ac.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) with ESMTP id mBIGRdAA030469 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:27:39 GMT Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:27:38 +0000 (GMT) From: David Lee To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: majordomo/majorcool development Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LFD 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-MailScanner-ID: mBIGRehI029788 X-DurhamAcUk-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-DurhamAcUk-MailScanner-ID: mBIGRlTo005617 X-Archive-Number: 200812/1 X-Sequence-Number: 5817 What is the future of majordomo and majorcool? We've used majordomo (now 1.94.5) and majorcool (now 1.3.2) for ten years, and they have served us reasonably well. Recently I needed to do a little tinkering, and came across some issues which, if addressed properly, could be useful to other sites. But both majordomo and majorcool seem stuck. (There was once a plan to do a big "Majordomo 2", but that seemed to get stuck around the year 2000.) Both have much to offer, especially in combination. But both are hampered by (seeming) complete lack of active development. How realistic would it be for us (the keen readers here) to begin to do a little, small-scale, development work on good old Majordomo-1 and Majorcool? (BTW, if approved, I would volunteer to do what I could.) The things I would particularly like to address are: 1. Packaging/installation 2. Configuration file (single site, multiple domain) 3. Rationalisation of some poor Majordomo/Majorcool interfaces 4. Perhaps combine (to emphasise that this is a single application with two interfaces) Perhaps others, too, have a wish-list. My particular emphasis would be on small-scale things that we could get quickly coded and released. And then to continue, small-scale, with a "release early, release often" practice. (Mj2 seemed to get bogged down because it was too hugely different from Mj1. And I notice that Mailman development seems to be similarly sluggish.) Would the licensing allow others (such as us) to adopt the code, adjust it, and then re-release it? If not, could the current licence holders make it so? Perhaps they could release it a known open-source licence, such as GPL, or Perl-Artistic, Apache, etc. Would we be OK to move development to (say) Sourceforge or similar? Etc. (Just some thoughts for the holiday season...) -- : David Lee I.T. Service : : Senior Systems Programmer Computer Centre : : UNIX Team Leader Durham University : : South Road : : http://www.dur.ac.uk/t.d.lee/ Durham DH1 3LE : : Phone: +44 191 334 2752 U.K. : From majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Dec 18 09:41:24 2008 X-Greylist: delayed 1422 seconds by postgrey-1.24 at mycroft; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:41:23 PST Received: from mailbox.onlinepolicy.net (mailbox.onlinepolicy.net [209.237.247.99]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 752D651001E for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:41:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from BigMac.local (c-71-197-234-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [71.197.234.20]) by mailbox.onlinepolicy.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0D9734CA; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:17:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <494A85B4.2010605@queernet.org> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:17:40 -0800 From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (Macintosh/20081105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Lee CC: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: majordomo/majorcool development References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200812/2 X-Sequence-Number: 5818 David Lee wrote: > But both majordomo and majorcool seem stuck. (There was once a plan > to do a big "Majordomo 2", but that seemed to get stuck around the > year 2000.) Actually, it advanced significantly after 2000. It hasn't changed much since 2004, but it's still extremely powerful, has capabilities no other MLM out there has, and mostly needs additional developers for simplification of its user interfaces and integration with external data stores. From majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Dec 18 10:43:00 2008 Received: from hermes1.dur.ac.uk (hermes1.dur.ac.uk [129.234.8.20]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F25F590107 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:42:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtphost4.dur.ac.uk (smtphost4.dur.ac.uk [129.234.4.18]) by hermes1.dur.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.7) with ESMTP id mBIIglxh018322; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:42:51 GMT Received: from claus.dur.ac.uk (claus.dur.ac.uk [129.234.2.31]) by smtphost4.dur.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.7) with ESMTP id mBIIgfG4015615 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:42:41 GMT Received: from claus.dur.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by claus.dur.ac.uk (8.14.2/8.11.1) with ESMTP id mBIIgfgg001767; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:42:41 GMT Received: from localhost (dcl0tdl@localhost) by claus.dur.ac.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) with ESMTP id mBIIgc1F001763; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:42:40 GMT Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:42:38 +0000 (GMT) From: David Lee To: "Roger B.A. Klorese" cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: majordomo/majorcool development In-Reply-To: <494A85B4.2010605@queernet.org> Message-ID: References: <494A85B4.2010605@queernet.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LFD 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-MailScanner-ID: mBIIgfG4015615 X-DurhamAcUk-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-DurhamAcUk-MailScanner-ID: mBIIglxh018322 X-Archive-Number: 200812/3 X-Sequence-Number: 5819 On Thu, 18 Dec 2008, Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: > David Lee wrote: >> But both majordomo and majorcool seem stuck. (There was once a plan to do >> a big "Majordomo 2", but that seemed to get stuck around the year 2000.) > > > Actually, it advanced significantly after 2000. It hasn't changed much since > 2004, but it's still extremely powerful, has capabilities no other MLM out > there has, and mostly needs additional developers for simplification of its > user interfaces and integration with external data stores. Thanks for the clarification, Roger. Appreciated! When is the date of the first official release of Mj2? Alpha? Beta? Production? My query is about having a Majordomo+Majorcool product of comparable production-quality to Mj-1.94.5/MC-1.3.2, and a realistic release and active schedule for minor patches and minor improvements. With Mj-1.94.5 and MC-1.3.2 that seems reasonably and realistically achievable within a couple of months? But with Mj-2? -- : David Lee I.T. Service : : Senior Systems Programmer Computer Centre : : UNIX Team Leader Durham University : : South Road : : http://www.dur.ac.uk/t.d.lee/ Durham DH1 3LE : : Phone: +44 191 334 2752 U.K. : From majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Dec 18 17:14:04 2008 Received: from mailbox.onlinepolicy.net (mailbox.onlinepolicy.net [209.237.247.99]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1C7A59015E for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from BigMac.local (c-71-197-234-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [71.197.234.20]) by mailbox.onlinepolicy.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A75873031; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:14:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <494AF55A.1030108@queernet.org> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:14:02 -0800 From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (Macintosh/20081105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Lee CC: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: majordomo/majorcool development References: <494A85B4.2010605@queernet.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200812/4 X-Sequence-Number: 5820 David Lee wrote: > When is the date of the first official release of Mj2? Alpha? Beta? > Production? There has never been an official release, because nobody has stepped up to some of the issues identified for release (specifically, repackaging it so it could be installed s a package/RPM/eb instead of a tarball). However, some have been using it in production for over seven years -- in my case, with as many as 1000,000 subscribers in almost 100 separate domains. > My query is about having a Majordomo+Majorcool product of comparable > production-quality to Mj-1.94.5/MC-1.3.2, and a realistic release and > active schedule for minor patches and minor improvements. With > Mj-1.94.5 and MC-1.3.2 that seems reasonably and realistically > achievable within a couple of months? But with Mj-2? > > I have no doubt that Majordomo 2 (there's no such thing as "Majorcool" -- it has web interfaces built in) -- could be released today. It requires development resources for packaging and maintenance, plus a redesign of the web interface so it exposes a usage model intead of just direct controls for the underlying software. From majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Dec 18 17:41:24 2008 X-Greylist: delayed 295 seconds by postgrey-1.24 at mycroft; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:41:23 PST Received: from cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us (cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us [147.144.1.212]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4BE7590138 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:41:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us (localhost.ccsf.cc.ca.us [127.0.0.1]) by cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id mBJ1aLad031005; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:36:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jjah@cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us) Received: from localhost (jjah@localhost) by cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) with ESMTP id mBJ1aL8l031002; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:36:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jjah@cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:36:21 -0800 (PST) From: User Jjah To: David Lee cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: majordomo/majorcool development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20081218153330.A13985@cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200812/5 X-Sequence-Number: 5821 On Thu, 18 Dec 2008, David Lee wrote: > Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:27:38 +0000 (GMT) > From: David Lee > To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com > Subject: majordomo/majorcool development > > > What is the future of majordomo and majorcool? > > > We've used majordomo (now 1.94.5) and majorcool (now 1.3.2) for ten years, and > they have served us reasonably well. Recently I needed to do a little > tinkering, and came across some issues which, if addressed properly, could be > useful to other sites. We've used them since 1997. > But both majordomo and majorcool seem stuck. (There was once a plan to do a > big "Majordomo 2", but that seemed to get stuck around the year 2000.) > > Both have much to offer, especially in combination. But both are hampered by > (seeming) complete lack of active development. > > > > How realistic would it be for us (the keen readers here) to begin to do a > little, small-scale, development work on good old Majordomo-1 and Majorcool? > (BTW, if approved, I would volunteer to do what I could.) > > The things I would particularly like to address are: > 1. Packaging/installation > 2. Configuration file (single site, multiple domain) > 3. Rationalisation of some poor Majordomo/Majorcool interfaces > 4. Perhaps combine (to emphasise that this is a single application > with two interfaces) > > Perhaps others, too, have a wish-list. > > My particular emphasis would be on small-scale things that we could get > quickly coded and released. And then to continue, small-scale, with a "release > early, release often" practice. (Mj2 seemed to get bogged down because it was > too hugely different from Mj1. And I notice that Mailman development seems to > be similarly sluggish.) Great idea David! Have a look at the current patches and contribs: ftp://ftp.ccsf.org/majordomo-patches/1.94.5/ ftp://ftp.ccsf.org/majordomo-contrib/ > Would the licensing allow others (such as us) to adopt the code, adjust it, > and then re-release it? The way it is now, the licensing does not allow it; have a look at the LICENSE file in Mj1 distribution. MC licensing is "NO-FRILLS":) ---8<--- Since MajorCool is closely tied to Majordomo, it's licensing policies are very similar to that distribution. If in doubt, please refer to the Majordomo License Agreement (substituting "MajorCool" for "Majordomo" and "NCR" for Brent Chapman's "Great Circle Associates"). -- Bill Houle NCR Corporation Bill.Houle@SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM ---8<--- There was a one-week attempt in March 2005 to release the next Mj1 under the current license. The last message about it in Majordomo Workers list, majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com, was dated March 15, 2005. > If not, could the current licence holders make it so? Perhaps they could > release it a known open-source licence, such as GPL, or Perl-Artistic, Apache, > etc. I'd contact Brent Chapman and Bill Houle directly, or use the address in MJ1 LICENSE file: ---8<--- 7. GENERAL. a. This Agreement shall be governed by the laws of the State of California. b. Address all correspondence regarding this license to GCA's electronic mail address , or to Great Circle Associates 1057 West Dana Street Mountain View, CA 94041 USA ---8<--- > Would we be OK to move development to (say) Sourceforge or similar? Sounds logical. > Etc. > > (Just some thoughts for the holiday season...) Regards, Joe -- _/ _/_/_/ _/ ____________ __o _/ _/ _/ _/ ______________ _-\<,_ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ ......(_)/ (_) _/_/ oe _/ _/. _/_/ ah jjah@cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us From majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Dec 18 19:08:19 2008 X-Greylist: delayed 1006 seconds by postgrey-1.24 at mycroft; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 19:08:17 PST Received: from toq7-srv.bellnexxia.net (toq7.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.203]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D22B590109 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 19:08:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from toip4.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.87]) by tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20081219025126.QVBL1809.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip4.srvr.bell.ca> for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 21:51:26 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: An8FAHCXSklBX4QT/2dsb2JhbACBbI0nr35YkGCDBg Received: from bas3-london14-1096778771.dsl.bell.ca (HELO t60p.bax.ca) ([65.95.132.19]) by toip4.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 18 Dec 2008 21:59:53 -0500 Message-ID: <494B0C2E.5060706@sympatico.ca> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 21:51:26 -0500 From: Frank Bax User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (X11/20080813) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: majordomo/majorcool development References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200812/6 X-Sequence-Number: 5822 David Lee wrote: > Would the licensing allow others (such as us) to adopt the code, adjust > it, and then re-release it? The license states that modified code cannot be publicly distributed. If this changes; I believe there already exist several patches that might be useful to incorporate into a new version. From majordomo-users-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Dec 18 22:33:46 2008 Received: from mailbox.onlinepolicy.net (mailbox.onlinepolicy.net [209.237.247.99]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC7C59008C for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from BigMac.local (c-71-197-234-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [71.197.234.20]) by mailbox.onlinepolicy.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0A3173077; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:33:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <494B4047.2020706@queernet.org> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:33:43 -0800 From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (Macintosh/20081105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: User Jjah CC: David Lee , majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: majordomo/majorcool development References: <20081218153330.A13985@cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us> In-Reply-To: <20081218153330.A13985@cloud.ccsf.cc.ca.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200812/7 X-Sequence-Number: 5823 User Jjah wrote: >> (Mj2 seemed to get bogged down because it was >> too hugely different from Mj1. And I notice that Mailman development seems to >> be similarly sluggish.) >> Actually, it got bogged down because it pretty much only had one or two developers at a time, and because it's pretty much 100% met the current developers' needs and most of the users'. I can't understand how Majordomo 1 can meet the needs of much anyone any more, except maybe hobbyists and small single-domain organizations. Its lack of file support, customization, archive support, and delegated administration make it seem a fairly useless antique to me.