From majordomo-workers-owner Wed Sep 6 19:18:54 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA10541; Wed, 6 Sep 2000 19:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (CDR27-115.accesscable.net [24.138.27.115]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BB5817E8E for ; Wed, 6 Sep 2000 19:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e872LBm45164; Wed, 6 Sep 2000 23:21:11 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 23:21:11 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: setting umask for archives ... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk possible? by default, they are being created 600, but I need it to be 644 so that another user can use them for generating mhonarc archives ... Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From majordomo-workers-owner Wed Sep 6 20:18:53 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA11117; Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0DB717E8E for ; Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA14728; Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:29:14 -0500 To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: setting umask for archives ... References: From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 06 Sep 2000 22:29:14 -0500 In-Reply-To: The Hermit Hacker's message of "Wed, 6 Sep 2000 23:21:11 -0300 (ADT)" Message-ID: Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "THH" == The Hermit Hacker writes: THH> possible? I don't think so. This has been on the TODO list: ! Make sure that archives get a separate umask, so that people can download them. I suggest a crontab until we can fix this. I'm not even sure what the best method is; this probably needs to be a per-list configurable but umasks and modes are tough to explain to folks who may have no experience with Unix. It's OK to ask the installer, I think, as long as we explain it, but we can't expect the average list owner to understand what '027' has to do with anything. Perhaps "archive_permissions" as an enum: readable - 644 (umask 227) restricted - 640 (umask 027) unreadable - 600 (umask 007) ? - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 7 00:18:50 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA13210; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 00:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rina.torah.org (rina.torah.org [208.229.147.50]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEE8017E8E for ; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 00:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (brozen@localhost) by rina.torah.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id DAA29968; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 03:33:40 -0400 Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 09:33:38 +0200 (IST) From: Brock Rozen To: Jason L Tibbitts III Cc: The Hermit Hacker , majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: setting umask for archives ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Backup: Disabled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 6 Sep 2000 at 22:29, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote about "Re: setting umask...": > I suggest a crontab until we can fix this. I'm not even sure what the best > method is; this probably needs to be a per-list configurable but umasks and > modes are tough to explain to folks who may have no experience with Unix. > It's OK to ask the installer, I think, as long as we explain it, but we > can't expect the average list owner to understand what '027' has to do with > anything. I don't think we should make this per-list. There're things that we just shouldn't let the average Joe touch, IMHO. > Perhaps "archive_permissions" as an enum: > > readable - 644 (umask 227) > restricted - 640 (umask 027) > unreadable - 600 (umask 007) BUT, if we are going to let them do it, then we should allow these OR the numbers. Simple translation table does the job... -- Brock Rozen brozen@torah.org From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 7 06:33:54 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA19929; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 06:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BEE917E8E for ; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 06:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA15858; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:39:57 -0500 To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: setting umask for archives ... References: From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 07 Sep 2000 08:39:57 -0500 In-Reply-To: Brock Rozen's message of "Thu, 7 Sep 2000 09:33:38 +0200 (IST)" Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "BR" == Brock Rozen writes: BR> I don't think we should make this per-list. What if I _don't_ want downloadable archives for a list? We still have to keep them so the digests and such can be built. So what do I do? If they're always created mode 644 then I would call that a security issue. BR> BUT, if we are going to let them do it, then we should allow these OR BR> the numbers. Simple translation table does the job... Why? What on earth does that buy you, besides even more work for poor SRE? - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 7 07:18:54 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA20490; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 07:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rina.torah.org (rina.torah.org [208.229.147.50]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC0F817E8E for ; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 07:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (brozen@localhost) by rina.torah.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA21079; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:31:09 -0400 Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:31:09 +0200 (IST) From: Brock Rozen To: Jason L Tibbitts III Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: setting umask for archives ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Backup: Disabled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 7 Sep 2000 at 08:39, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote about "Re: setting umask...": > BR> I don't think we should make this per-list. > > What if I _don't_ want downloadable archives for a list? We still have to > keep them so the digests and such can be built. So what do I do? If > they're always created mode 644 then I would call that a security issue. You're right. > BR> BUT, if we are going to let them do it, then we should allow these OR > BR> the numbers. Simple translation table does the job... > > Why? What on earth does that buy you, besides even more work for poor SRE? Well, I should be able to set them group writeable, if I want. And I am certainly interested in that. The words keep it simple, but I don't think they should come at the expense of functionality. -- Brock Rozen brozen@torah.org From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 7 08:19:13 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA21113; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1DB317E8E for ; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA16576; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:31:50 -0500 To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: setting umask for archives ... References: <20000907102830.B21014@risc.sps.mot.com> From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 07 Sep 2000 10:31:50 -0500 In-Reply-To: Dave Wolfe's message of "Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:28:30 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "DW" == Dave Wolfe writes: DW> ??? Try: Sorry, brain fell out. DW> But why allow execute permissions on archive files? You are proving my point about why numbers are bad. In any case, we open files mode 666 (to which the umask is applied); no executable bits get turned on in the operation. - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 7 08:33:55 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA21090; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4557417E8E for ; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA16529; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:29:01 -0500 To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: setting umask for archives ... References: From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 07 Sep 2000 10:29:00 -0500 In-Reply-To: Brock Rozen's message of "Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:31:09 +0200 (IST)" Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "BR" == Brock Rozen writes: BR> Well, I should be able to set them group writeable, if I want. And I am BR> certainly interested in that. Are you sure you do? Altering the length of the archive by even one byte renders the indices incorrect, meaning that any archive retrieval from within Majordomo will be screwed up. You cannot edit the archives yourself. (We could write something to rebuild the indices once you've messed with an archive, but I don't think this exists yet and there are still issues that it can't solve.) Obviously this needs to be addressed, probably by implementing code to delete an archived message and to replace one message with another. - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 7 08:48:53 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA21203; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a2central.com (adsl-216-102-56-253.dsl.sktn01.pacbell.net [216.102.56.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7171B17E8E for ; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (justdave@localhost) by a2central.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05931; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:38:11 -0700 Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:38:11 -0700 (PDT) From: David Miller To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: setting umask for archives ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Brock Rozen wrote: > On 6 Sep 2000 at 22:29, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote about "Re: setting umask...": > > > I suggest a crontab until we can fix this. I'm not even sure what the best > > method is; this probably needs to be a per-list configurable but umasks and > > modes are tough to explain to folks who may have no experience with Unix. > > It's OK to ask the installer, I think, as long as we explain it, but we > > can't expect the average list owner to understand what '027' has to do with > > anything. > > I don't think we should make this per-list. > > There're things that we just shouldn't let the average Joe touch, IMHO. I think it SHOULD be a per-list basis. I have some lists that are private, and the people who are allowed to access those digests are a member of the group that is assigned to the digest folder. Other groups are public, and those digests are stored in a different folder which is publicly accessible via ftp or web. As long as you explain it well in the description for that setting, they'll figure it out. Don't call it a umask, though, the average Joe doesn't know that. Most people who have even looked at Unix are familiar with access modes though. Dave Miller From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 7 10:32:39 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA22458; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [205.147.43.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF1A517E8E for ; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org (eckert@netcom14.netcom.com [199.183.9.114]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA27817; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20000907102358.00b84870@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 10:27:06 -0700 To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu From: SRE Subject: re-indexing archives (was Re: setting umask for archives ...) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:29 AM 9/7/00, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: >yourself. (We could write something to rebuild the indices once you've >messed with an archive, but I don't think this exists yet and there are >still issues that it can't solve.) >Obviously this needs to be addressed, probably by implementing code to >delete an archived message and to replace one message with another. I prefer the ability to index a Unix-style mailbox as an archive... then I can edit as I please, cut/paste/etc, and run the re-indexer to fix up the offsets. All that is required is the same thing Eudora does: when storing a msg in a file full of msgs, make sure the ONLY line that matches /^From / is the first line of an email header. If you find it elsewhere, s/^From />From / and now building the index is as simple as searching for /^From / and marking the offset. From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 7 10:47:46 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA22539; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9339717E8E for ; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA17239; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:51:07 -0500 To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: re-indexing archives (was Re: setting umask for archives ...) References: <4.3.1.0.20000907102358.00b84870@pop.climber.org> From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 07 Sep 2000 12:51:07 -0500 In-Reply-To: SRE's message of "Thu, 07 Sep 2000 10:27:06 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 28 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "S" == SRE writes: S> I prefer the ability to index a Unix-style mailbox as an archive... then S> I can edit as I please, cut/paste/etc, and run the re-indexer to fix up S> the offsets. So you delete message N. Someone (or worse, the digest builder) requests message N+5 and ends up getting N+6 because you deleted a message out of the archive but the system has no way of knowing that. Message numbers are supposed to be _persistent_. Perhaps it is a naive assumption to think that an integer is sufficient, but I don't want to have to use Message-IDs (which are not unique, no matter what you might want to believe) or an MD5 sum of the article (which has an even worse problem in that you can't even edit one character in the article without changing its ID). S> All that is required is the same thing Eudora does: when storing a msg S> in a file full of msgs, make sure the ONLY line that matches /^From / is S> the first line of an email header. It's way more complicated than that (you have neglected Content-Length:), but yes, we do know how to do it. The problem is not in building the index, it's in preserving persistence of article numbers across the changes that you might make. - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 7 11:02:42 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA22708; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [205.147.43.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA05917EB7 for ; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org (eckert@netcom14.netcom.com [199.183.9.114]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA28333; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 11:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20000907110357.00b77940@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 11:09:36 -0700 To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu From: SRE Subject: Re: Mj2: Re: re-indexing archives (was Re: setting umask for archives ...) In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.0.20000907102358.00b84870@pop.climber.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:51 AM 9/7/00, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: >So you delete message N. Someone (or worse, the digest builder) requests >message N+5 and ends up getting N+6 because you deleted a message out of >the archive but the system has no way of knowing that. That could only happen if I were editing the archives as the builder was running, no? >Message numbers are supposed to be _persistent_. Why? When you use archive-index, you get a number. Asking people to review the index before they issue a get command seems like a reasonable compromise between never being able to fix the archives and always being able to use the same number. Maybe I'm missing something here - help me understand how the number is used EXCEPT when it is returned by archive-index and fed to archive-get. >I don't want to have >to use Message-IDs (which are not unique, no matter what you might want to >believe) or an MD5 sum of the article (which has an even worse problem in >that you can't even edit one character in the article without changing its >ID). Agreed! The alternatives to having an integer are poor. But if the integer simply represents a sequence number for which msg is in the archive file, the integer is enough! If I alter the archives (to remove copyrighted material under the Millenium Copyright Act, for example) I need a way to re-compute those integers. Once they're re-computed, who's the wiser that they are not the original integers? >It's way more complicated than that (you have neglected Content-Length:), >but yes, we do know how to do it. The problem is not in building the >index, it's in preserving persistence of article numbers across the changes >that you might make. OK, I guess I'm not clear on where the article numbers might be used. If they're just being typed by humans, they can change frequently. If they're being used by internal routines, those routines would have to know to go get new numbers when the archives were re-indexed. SRE mailto:eckert@climber.org | http://www.climber.org/eckert/ Info on peak climbing email lists mailto:info@climber.org Things change. People change. Things change people. From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 7 12:17:40 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA23635; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D94D917E8E for ; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA17536; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 14:25:53 -0500 To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: re-indexing archives (was Re: setting umask for archives ...) References: <4.3.1.0.20000907102358.00b84870@pop.climber.org> <4.3.1.0.20000907110357.00b77940@pop.climber.org> From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 07 Sep 2000 14:25:53 -0500 In-Reply-To: SRE's message of "Thu, 07 Sep 2000 11:09:36 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "S" == SRE writes: S> That could only happen if I were editing the archives as the builder was S> running, no? No. It would happen any time you delete a whole message out of an archive, since the succeeding message numbers will be shifted down by one when you reindex. >> Message numbers are supposed to be _persistent_. S> Why? Because we have lots of uses for them. They get stored in the digest structure and are used to pull out the message when the digest is built. They get inserted into the headers of each message. Digests of type 'index' include them. When we are doing web archives on the fly, we'll use them as article IDs (i.e. we keep an index page up to date and when someone clicks on an article, it is retrieved, formatted, displayed and cached so we don't have to retrieve it again). - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 7 13:50:21 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA24762; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A0617E8E for ; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA17862; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:02:22 -0500 To: Dave Wolfe Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: re-indexing archives (was Re: setting umask for archives ...) References: <4.3.1.0.20000907102358.00b84870@pop.climber.org> <4.3.1.0.20000907110357.00b77940@pop.climber.org> <20000907154140.B21112@risc.sps.mot.com> From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 07 Sep 2000 16:02:21 -0500 In-Reply-To: Dave Wolfe's message of "Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:41:41 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 28 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "DW" == Dave Wolfe writes: DW> I'll side w/ SRE on this one. I _must_ have ability to make changes to DW> the archives. It seems you're siding with me as well, because I never said that the intent was to prevent you from making changes to the archives. But you can't just do anything to them and expect the system to just figure this out. DW> If the message numbers need to be persistent, OK I guess, but then they DW> must be an abstraction and not literally ordinal message positions of DW> the particular archive file. The message numbers are not literally ordinal positions. (They are, coincidentally, at the moment because we don't yet support deletion.) We just have to keep track of the message numbers of deleted messages. Easy, and solves all of the problems, as long as it's Mj2 that's deleting the message. If you decide to fire up vi and manually edit stuff then you can't expect the system to figure out what you did without giving it any information. Hmmm. Michael, do archived messages get the message number embedded in them? This could be used as a non-foolproof way of detecting that someone has screwed with the archives. But still, anyone who expects to just be able to poke with things is expecting too much. - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 7 16:20:16 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA26311; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [205.147.43.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBDA617EB7 for ; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org (eckert@netcom12.netcom.com [199.183.9.112]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA01340; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20000907161636.00c19cd0@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 16:22:40 -0700 To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu From: SRE Subject: Re: Mj2: Re: re-indexing archives (was Re: setting umask for archives ...) In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.0.20000907102358.00b84870@pop.climber.org> <4.3.1.0.20000907110357.00b77940@pop.climber.org> <20000907154140.B21112@risc.sps.mot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:02 PM 9/7/00, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: >If you decide to fire up vi and manually edit stuff then you >can't expect the system to figure out what you did without giving it any >information. Correct! I want to tell it to go figure things out again, and update all the places that need to have pointers into the archives. I certainly do NOT want to spend my life getting and putting one message at a time via email so I can edit out the copyright violations in VI. >But still, anyone who expects to just be >able to poke with things is expecting too much. Works with other server software, no reason it can't work here. For example, due to circumstances too complicated to bother with here, I have the archives for one of my lists in two places. I'd really like to merge them. They're both Mj2 archives, they just happen to be in two different directories. With a "re-index" command, I use "cat" and I'm done. Do you envision me putting one message at a time into the archive using as-yet unwritten commands? For about 500 messages? If email commands are required to manipulate the archives, can we at least have a bulk check-in that takes many messages in standard Unix mailbox format and adds them all to the end of the archive? And another that sends everything in the archive the same way? Oh, and one to delete everything in the archive. Then I'll have the ability to re-index with only three email commands. SRE mailto:eckert@climber.org | http://www.climber.org/eckert/ Info on peak climbing email lists mailto:info@climber.org "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 7 23:50:16 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA00499; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 23:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rina.torah.org (rina.torah.org [208.229.147.50]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F8417E8E for ; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 23:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (brozen@localhost) by rina.torah.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id CAA05740; Fri, 8 Sep 2000 02:59:36 -0400 Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 08:59:36 +0200 (IST) From: Brock Rozen To: Jason L Tibbitts III Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: setting umask for archives ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Backup: Disabled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 7 Sep 2000 at 10:29, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote about "Re: setting umask...": > BR> Well, I should be able to set them group writeable, if I want. And I am > BR> certainly interested in that. > > Are you sure you do? Altering the length of the archive by even one byte > renders the indices incorrect, meaning that any archive retrieval from > within Majordomo will be screwed up. You cannot edit the archives > yourself. (We could write something to rebuild the indices once you've > messed with an archive, but I don't think this exists yet and there are > still issues that it can't solve.) Ahhh...this is another story. I think it is desirable to allow people to edit the actual messages. There are some people who wants to change history! > Obviously this needs to be addressed, probably by implementing code to > delete an archived message and to replace one message with another. Yes. I might also want to link my ftp site to the archives, and it might become a common-storage area for the whole list. Mj2 doesn't need to do anything to whatever else is uploaded...but is it able to ignore the other stuff? -- Brock Rozen brozen@torah.org From majordomo-workers-owner Sat Sep 9 03:07:01 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id CAA19306; Sat, 9 Sep 2000 02:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tkk.att.ne.jp (tkk.att.ne.jp [165.76.176.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7FE417EBA for ; Sat, 9 Sep 2000 02:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saturn.helios.net (8.pool32.tokyo.att.ne.jp [165.76.229.23]) by tkk.att.ne.jp (8.8.8+Spin/3.6W-CONS(05/02/00)) id TAA05606; Sat, 9 Sep 2000 19:08:17 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000909185847.00b54100@localhost> X-Sender: nunez@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 19:00:05 +0900 To: The Hermit Hacker , Craig Hartnett From: Steve =?iso-8859-1?Q?N=FA=F1ez?= Subject: Re: Downloading Majordomo 2 Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000821133216.00c8d6a0@niner.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all, Does anyone have the CVSROOT for obtaining MD2? I can always start with a snapshot, but it's nice to be able to retreive patches when necessary from cvs. Regards, - Steve At 06:37 PM 8/21/00 -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >ftp://ftp.hub.org/pub/Majordomo2 has nightly snapshots based on the CVS >repository ... > >On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, Craig Hartnett wrote: > > > Hi there, > > > > I should probably be shot or flamed for this question, but I've searched > > the archives and the only pointers I can find for Majordomo 2 are Jason's > > page at http://www.hpc.uh.edu/majordomo and the CSF page at > > http://csf.colorado.edu/help . Neither page seems to have any information > > on where one can download version 2. > > > > If someone can tell me where to download it, I would be most appreciative. > > I did at one point have a 1.9x.x version installed on my server, but have > > decided to play with version 2. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > Craig Hartnett > > > > > >Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy >Systems Administrator @ hub.org >primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: >scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From majordomo-workers-owner Sat Sep 9 09:04:34 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA24354; Sat, 9 Sep 2000 08:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.novagate.net (mailgate.novagate.net [205.138.138.22]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89B4217E8E for ; Sat, 9 Sep 2000 08:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (004gra103.chartermi.net [24.247.4.103]) by mailgate.novagate.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id MAA13353; Sat, 9 Sep 2000 12:07:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002e01c01a77$ba5f1dc0$0100007f@localhost.chartermi.net> From: "Dave Miller" To: "=?iso-8859-1?B?U3RldmUgTvrxZXo=?=" Cc: Subject: Re: Downloading Majordomo 2 Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 12:05:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk :pserver:anonymous@cvs.hpc.uh.edu:/home/cvs/majordomo -----Original Message----- From: Steve Núñez To: The Hermit Hacker ; Craig Hartnett Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Saturday, September 09, 2000 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Downloading Majordomo 2 >Hi all, > >Does anyone have the CVSROOT for obtaining MD2? I can always start with a >snapshot, but it's nice to be able to retreive patches when necessary from >cvs. > >Regards, > - Steve > >At 06:37 PM 8/21/00 -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > >>ftp://ftp.hub.org/pub/Majordomo2 has nightly snapshots based on the CVS >>repository ... >> >>On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, Craig Hartnett wrote: >> >> > Hi there, >> > >> > I should probably be shot or flamed for this question, but I've searched >> > the archives and the only pointers I can find for Majordomo 2 are Jason's >> > page at http://www.hpc.uh.edu/majordomo and the CSF page at >> > http://csf.colorado.edu/help . Neither page seems to have any information >> > on where one can download version 2. >> > >> > If someone can tell me where to download it, I would be most appreciative. >> > I did at one point have a 1.9x.x version installed on my server, but have >> > decided to play with version 2. >> > >> > Thanks in advance. >> > >> > >> > Craig Hartnett >> > >> > >> >>Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy >>Systems Administrator @ hub.org >>primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: >>scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > > From majordomo-workers-owner Sat Sep 9 19:17:45 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA29325; Sat, 9 Sep 2000 19:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tkk.att.ne.jp (tkk.att.ne.jp [165.76.176.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5664E17E8E for ; Sat, 9 Sep 2000 19:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saturn.helios.net (8.pool32.tokyo.att.ne.jp [165.76.229.23]) by tkk.att.ne.jp (8.8.8+Spin/3.6W-CONS(05/02/00)) id LAA04786; Sun, 10 Sep 2000 11:32:37 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20000910112220.00b344e0@localhost> X-Sender: nunez@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 11:24:22 +0900 To: From: Steve =?iso-8859-1?Q?N=FA=F1ez?= Subject: Majordomo 2 on OpenBSD In-Reply-To: <002e01c01a77$ba5f1dc0$0100007f@localhost.chartermi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello All, I'm just wondering if anyone has ever setup MD2 on OpenBSD? (I'm using version 2.7) I'm about to try this combination and want to know if there are any caveats I should be aware of. Regards, - Steve From majordomo-workers-owner Mon Sep 11 12:17:44 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA26541; Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [205.147.43.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B897A17E8B for ; Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org (pool0819.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.247.54]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA01725; Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20000911113843.00bb5c20@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:26:22 -0700 To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu From: SRE Subject: installing Mj2 without the root password Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'd like to add the text below, or something like it, to either the README file or preferably to Makefile.PL. The makefile currently says you should be root to install, but I've discovered that's not required. In fact, it may not be desirable! Please read the note below, and let me know how to word it better PLUS where to put it. I've already added one line of stroking to the install script so it shows you the user name and group name (plus uid and gid) under which you're running the installation. Thanks in advance! ====================================================================== NOTE ON BEING ROOT: You never NEED TO BE "root" to install Majordomo2. You can EITHER become root, OR you can become the user under which the server processes are intended to run, before you install. All of the permission setting and setuid wrapper generation will work the same way if you are either uid, but if you are not root there are several steps which may need to be done before and after install. Replace "/var/mj" with the temporary directory you specify to install, and /usr/local/majordomo with the destination directory you specify to install: su majordomo_user_id mkdir /var/mj chmod 770 /var/mj mkdir /usr/local/majordomo chmod 755 /usr/local/majordomo perl Makefile.PL make # optional: make test make install chmod +x /usr/local/majordomo exit # test: /usr/local/majordomo/bin/mj_shell Whether you install as root or the majordomo user, the wrapper scripts will be 'setuid majordomo', not 'setuid root', so there are no security concerns once the software is installed. Not being root allows more safe delegation of install tasks, and the majordomo user password can be changed (by root) once installation is complete to keep the non-root user from tweaking the system later. ====================================================================== From majordomo-workers-owner Mon Sep 11 14:34:52 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA27772; Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [205.147.43.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D16AF17E8B for ; Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org (pool0819.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.247.54]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA03374; Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20000911143858.00bb87a0@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:40:12 -0700 To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu From: SRE Subject: Re: Mj2: Re: installing Mj2 without the root password In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.0.20000911113843.00bb5c20@pop.climber.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:34 PM 9/11/00, Michael Yount wrote: >It depends upon the features being used. For example, the majordomo user >may not have write access to the cgi-bin directory, so it >may be impossible to install the CGI wrappers except as root. I'll add that. >Perhaps "potentially fewer security concerns" is more accurate. Much better... I meant to say "no ADDITIONAL" concerns, not "no concerns". Oops. So where should this go? Into Makefile.PL where it tells you to run "make install" as root? From majordomo-workers-owner Wed Sep 13 14:17:42 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA02837; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (CDR27-115.accesscable.net [24.138.27.115]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C3F517E8B for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8DLOfM72860; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:24:42 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:24:41 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Correct database ... any way to fix? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ummm ... Majordomo>who pgsql-general Members of list "pgsql-general": Segmentation fault(core dumped) ppl have been reporting a lack of messages, go to see if maybe the list was wiped out, and find the above ... other lists on the same machine appear to be okay, its only that one that I know of so far ... Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From majordomo-workers-owner Wed Sep 13 14:32:47 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA02886; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (CDR27-115.accesscable.net [24.138.27.115]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08A6617E8B for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8DLWe272967; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:32:40 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:32:40 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: database corruption in majordomo2 ... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk okay, got a group that if I try to do a who on, produces: ---------------------------------- Majordomo>who pgsql-general Members of list "pgsql-general": Segmentation fault(core dumped) ---------------------------------- none of the other lists on the system appear to be exhibiting this problem, only that one ... anything that can be done/looked at to fix this without just wiping out the whole list and trying to get everyone to resubscribe? :( thanks ... Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From majordomo-workers-owner Wed Sep 13 15:04:05 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA03294; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB0E717E8B for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA03081; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:13:45 -0500 To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Correct database ... any way to fix? References: From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 13 Sep 2000 17:13:45 -0500 In-Reply-To: The Hermit Hacker's message of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:24:41 -0300 (ADT)" Message-ID: Lines: 49 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "THH" == The Hermit Hacker writes: THH> Segmentation fault(core dumped) Obviously that's bad. It would be nice to see just where it crashed (i.e. get a backtrace from that core file) but Perl code doesn't really have the capacity to segfault. (Perl does, in which case it's a Perl bug, and of course any of the libraries that Perl calls can die as well.) Make sure the registry is OK (who-enhanced GLOBAL) and then locate the database file itself (should be named _pgsql-general.D) and dump it: XYX:morpheus:~> db_dump -d mj/2.0-lists/morpheus.math.uh.edu/test/_subscribers.D btree (local mpool, read-only) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= On-page metadata: magic 0x53162 version 0x6 pagesize 4096 maxkey: 0 minkey: 2 free 0 flags 0 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= DB_INFO: bt_maxkey: 0 bt_minkey: 2 bt_compare: 0x4001c020 bt_prefix: 0x4001c080 stack: ovflsize: 1007 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= page 1: (btree leaf) lsn.file: 0 lsn.offset: 0 prev: 0 next: 0 level: 1 entries: 4 offset: 3732 [000] 4072 len: 18 data: nobody@example.com [001] 3996 len: 72 data: nobody@example.com0x01n... [002] 3976 len: 17 data: tibbs@math.uh.edu [003] 3732 len: 238 data: tibbs@morpheus.math.... XYX:morpheus:~> db_dump -p mj/2.0-lists/morpheus.math.uh.edu/test/_subscribers.D format=print type=btree bt_minkey=2 db_pagesize=4096 HEADER=END nobody@example.com nobody@example.com\01nobody@example.com\01953881633\01953881633\01each\01\01\01SPR\01\01\01\01 tibbs@math.uh.edu tibbs@morpheus.math.uh.edu\01tibbs@morpheus.math.uh.edu\01966718972\01966806438\01each\01\01\01SPR\01\01\01\01\01966719064M1 966719684M2 9668011113 9668011133 9668011143 9668012513 9668013473 9668016393 966804093M3 966806438M4\01The user's email name is not found. - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Wed Sep 13 17:32:51 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA04856; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD5BF17E8B for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA03540; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 19:48:27 -0500 To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Correct database ... any way to fix? References: From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 13 Sep 2000 19:48:27 -0500 In-Reply-To: The Hermit Hacker's message of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:40:48 -0300 (ADT)" Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "THH" == The Hermit Hacker writes: THH> db_dump: unrecognized file type Well, what's actually in the file? What does 'file' say? Can you see the keys and data using less? Does the file still have length? And what about the registry? If you have the full log then you should be able to get the list back to the state it was in before this happened, although you might have to hack out a tool to do it. - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Wed Sep 13 17:49:05 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA04791; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (CDR27-115.accesscable.net [24.138.27.115]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FFC917E8B for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8E0emO76070; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:40:48 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:40:48 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Jason L Tibbitts III Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Correct database ... any way to fix? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk %db_dump -d _subscribers.D db_dump: unrecognized file type db_dump: _subscribers.D: Invalid argument On 13 Sep 2000, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > >>>>> "THH" == The Hermit Hacker writes: > > THH> Segmentation fault(core dumped) > > Obviously that's bad. It would be nice to see just where it crashed > (i.e. get a backtrace from that core file) but Perl code doesn't really > have the capacity to segfault. (Perl does, in which case it's a Perl bug, > and of course any of the libraries that Perl calls can die as well.) > > Make sure the registry is OK (who-enhanced GLOBAL) and then locate the > database file itself (should be named _pgsql-general.D) and dump it: > > XYX:morpheus:~> db_dump -d mj/2.0-lists/morpheus.math.uh.edu/test/_subscribers.D > btree (local mpool, read-only) > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > On-page metadata: > magic 0x53162 > version 0x6 > pagesize 4096 > maxkey: 0 minkey: 2 > free 0 > flags 0 > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > DB_INFO: > bt_maxkey: 0 bt_minkey: 2 > bt_compare: 0x4001c020 bt_prefix: 0x4001c080 > stack: > ovflsize: 1007 > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > page 1: (btree leaf) > lsn.file: 0 lsn.offset: 0 > prev: 0 next: 0 level: 1 entries: 4 offset: 3732 > [000] 4072 len: 18 data: nobody@example.com > [001] 3996 len: 72 data: nobody@example.com0x01n... > [002] 3976 len: 17 data: tibbs@math.uh.edu > [003] 3732 len: 238 data: tibbs@morpheus.math.... > > XYX:morpheus:~> db_dump -p mj/2.0-lists/morpheus.math.uh.edu/test/_subscribers.D > format=print > type=btree > bt_minkey=2 > db_pagesize=4096 > HEADER=END > nobody@example.com > nobody@example.com\01nobody@example.com\01953881633\01953881633\01each\01\01\01SPR\01\01\01\01 > tibbs@math.uh.edu > tibbs@morpheus.math.uh.edu\01tibbs@morpheus.math.uh.edu\01966718972\01966806438\01each\01\01\01SPR\01\01\01\01\01966719064M1 966719684M2 9668011113 9668011133 9668011143 9668012513 9668013473 9668016393 966804093M3 966806438M4\01The user's email name is not found. > > - J< > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From majordomo-workers-owner Wed Sep 13 18:33:59 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA05334; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (CDR27-115.accesscable.net [24.138.27.115]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73B117E8B for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8E1bMk78586; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:37:22 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:37:22 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Jason L Tibbitts III Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Correct database ... any way to fix? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 13 Sep 2000, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > >>>>> "THH" == The Hermit Hacker writes: > > THH> db_dump: unrecognized file type > > Well, what's actually in the file? What does 'file' say? Can you see the > keys and data using less? Does the file still have length? > > And what about the registry? > > If you have the full log then you should be able to get the list back to > the state it was in before this happened, although you might have to hack > out a tool to do it. > > - J< Xpgsql-loophole:.D: empty _config: ASCII text _digests: data _dup_id.D: Berkeley DB Hash file (Version 2, Little Endian, Bucket Size 8192, Bucket Shift 13, Directory Size 256, Segment Size 256, Segment Shift 8, Overflow Point 5, Last Freed 1, Max Bucket 16, High Mask 0x1f, Low Mask 0xf, Fill Factor 137, Number of Keys 832) _dup_partial.D: Berkeley DB Hash file (Version 2, Little Endian, Bucket Size 8192, Bucket Shift 13, Directory Size 256, Segment Size 256, Segment Shift 8, Overflow Point 4, Last Freed 1, Max Bucket 15, High Mask 0xf, Low Mask 0x7, Fill Factor 181, Number of Keys 818) _dup_sum.D: Berkeley DB Hash file (Version 2, Little Endian, Bucket Size 8192, Bucket Shift 13, Directory Size 256, Segment Size 256, Segment Shift 8, Overflow Point 4, Last Freed 1, Max Bucket 15, High Mask 0xf, Low Mask 0x7, Fill Factor 181, Number of Keys 822) _subscribers.D: data backup: directory files: directory perl5.00503.core: ELF 32-bit LSB core file, Intel 80386, version 1, from 'perl5.00503' %strings _subscribers.D | head delphi@mail.progolf2.com.twdelphi@mail.progolf2.com.tw delphi@mail.progolf2.com.tw 952588076 968213504 each 966173845M4183 966175641M4184 966177315M4185 966182851M4188 966182854M4189 966182873M4186 966182881M4187 966184597M4190 966195354M4191 966198935M4192 966202639M4193 966202639M4194 966206325M4195 966215129M4196 hty22@ms30.url.com.twhty22@ms30.url.com.tw hty22@ms30.url.com.tw 968212427 968212427 %ls -lt total 8567 -rw-r----- 1 majordom daemon 581632 Sep 13 21:30 _subscribers.D -rw------- 1 majordom daemon 7606272 Sep 13 20:40 perl5.00503.core -rw------- 1 majordom daemon 1512 Sep 13 20:31 _digests -rw------- 1 majordom daemon 172032 Sep 13 20:31 _dup_sum.D -rw------- 1 majordom daemon 172032 Sep 13 20:31 _dup_partial.D -rw------- 1 majordom daemon 2840 Sep 13 20:31 _config -rw------- 1 majordom daemon 188416 Sep 13 20:31 _dup_id.D drwxr-xr-x 2 majordom daemon 512 Sep 13 19:57 backup -rw------- 1 majordom daemon 0 May 5 04:48 Xpgsql-loophole:.D drwx------ 3 majordom daemon 512 Mar 9 2000 files what registry? I know little about Berkeley DB :( doing a 'who' on the list (this is pgsql-hackers above), comes back with >1200 subscribers listed ... but ... %db_dump -d _subscribers.D db_dump: unrecognized file type db_dump: _subscribers.D: Invalid argument % Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From majordomo-workers-owner Wed Sep 13 19:48:59 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA06136; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 19:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC2A817E8C for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 19:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA03743; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:04:32 -0500 To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Correct database ... any way to fix? References: From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 13 Sep 2000 22:04:32 -0500 In-Reply-To: The Hermit Hacker's message of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:37:22 -0300 (ADT)" Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "THH" == The Hermit Hacker writes: THH> %strings _subscribers.D | head Well, some data is there. 'strings' is stripping the \01 characters, but the data is there. THH> what registry? I know little about Berkeley DB :( The Majordomo registry. That was the "who-enhanced GLOBAL" I asked you to run. And what about that backtrace from the core file? - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Wed Sep 13 23:03:58 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA07605; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6504617E8B for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04217; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 01:06:21 -0500 To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Correct database ... any way to fix? References: From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 14 Sep 2000 01:06:21 -0500 In-Reply-To: The Hermit Hacker's message of "Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:23:41 -0300 (ADT)" Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "THH" == The Hermit Hacker writes: [snip backtrace] Well, at least we know that it's dying in your C library. Can't tell if Perl had passed in something bogus, though. In any case, your registration database is complete, so you have enough info to easily reconstruct the subscriber database for the damaged list. You'll lost the flag settings, although you can probably extract those easily from the log. I don't know how we could cause corruption of one of the DB files. Obviously there are all kinds of possibilities, but they must be extremely rare because we've never seen this kind of thing before. Hey, since you're running the pgsql lists, how about helping us get a Postgres backend going? I don't know much about it, but if it supports variable (unlimited) length fields then I see no reason why we shouldn't be able to make it worl. - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 14 04:55:36 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id EAA16599; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 04:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (CDR27-115.accesscable.net [24.138.27.115]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AC1217E8B for ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 04:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8EC1ox02199; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:01:50 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:01:50 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: fabrizio.ermini@sysdat.it Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org, majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [GENERAL] List funnies ? In-Reply-To: <39C0C410.6902.C965CE@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk okay, this is most odd ... according to the list software, you are still only subscribed to the general list: Address: fabrizio.ermini@sysdat.it Address is valid. Address is registered as: fabrizio.ermini@sysdat.it Registered at Fri Sep 1 15:33:13 2000 GMT. Registration data last changed at Fri Sep 1 15:33:13 2000 GMT. Address is subscribed to 1 list: pgsql-general: Subscribed at Fri Sep 1 15:33:13 2000 GMT. Receiving each message as it is posted. Subscriber flags: noeliminatecc nohide prefix replyto selfcopy norewritefrom noackstall noackdeny noackpost noackreject Data last changed at Fri Sep 1 15:33:13 2000 GMT. can you forward me a copy of the next 'hackers' message you receive, along with its *full* headers? Just to make sure, pgsql-general@postgresql.org hasn't been inadvertently subscribed to hackers, so we aren't getting a cross there: Majordomo>show pgsql-general@postgresql.org Address: pgsql-general@postgresql.org Address is valid. Address is not registered. On Thu, 14 Sep 2000 fabrizio.ermini@sysdat.it wrote: > > Has something happened to the list server ? > > > > I am only subscribed to the general list, but after two days of nothing I'm > > now getting the hackers list stuff. > > > So it's not just me? > > How sad, I was hoping I had be promoted to Hacker status... ;-) > > > /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ > > Fabrizio Ermini Alternate E-mail: > C.so Umberto, 7 faermini@tin.it > loc. Meleto Valdarno Mail on GSM: (keep it short!) > 52020 Cavriglia (AR) faermini@sms.tin.it > > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 14 05:18:20 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA16895; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 05:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (CDR27-115.accesscable.net [24.138.27.115]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA57817E8B for ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 05:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8ECV2322498; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:31:02 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:31:02 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: [HACKERS] Re: [GENERAL] List funnies ? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Definitely something getting link'd between each other ... according to show, this user is no on hackers: Majordomo>show john_oshea@wordbank.co.uk Address: john_oshea@wordbank.co.uk Address is valid. Address is registered as: "John O'Shea" Registered at Wed Aug 16 10:52:26 2000 GMT. Registration data last changed at Wed Aug 16 11:19:13 2000 GMT. Address is subscribed to 2 lists: pgsql-general: Subscribed as "John O'Shea" . Subscribed at Wed Aug 16 11:19:13 2000 GMT. Receiving each message as it is posted. Subscriber flags: noeliminatecc nohide prefix replyto selfcopy norewritefrom noackstall noackdeny noackpost noackreject Data last changed at Wed Aug 16 11:19:13 2000 GMT. pgsql-sql: Subscribed as "John O'Shea" . Subscribed at Wed Aug 16 10:52:25 2000 GMT. Receiving each message as it is posted. Subscriber flags: noeliminatecc nohide prefix replyto selfcopy norewritefrom noackstall noackdeny noackpost noackreject Data last changed at Wed Aug 16 10:52:25 2000 GMT. Thoughts? Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 13:16:08 +0100 From: John O'Shea To: The Hermit Hacker Subject: [HACKERS] Re: [GENERAL] List funnies ? >can you forward me a copy of the next 'hackers' message you receive, along >with its *full* headers? Just to make sure, pgsql-general@postgresql.org >hasn't been inadvertently subscribed to hackers, so we aren't getting a >cross there: Here's one sent to me (also not on HACKERS) - hope that helps: ----- Received: from 216.126.84.1 by mailserver ([10.1.1.10] running VPOP3) with ESMTP for ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 12:20:41 +0100 Received: from hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id e8EBGss57302; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 07:16:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acheron.rime.com.au (root@albatr.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.54.222]) by hub.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e8EBFks56807 for ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 07:15:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oberon (Oberon.rime.com.au [203.8.195.100]) by acheron.rime.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA30677; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:15:39 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000914221655.037d4290@mail.rhyme.com.au> X-Sender: pjw@mail.rhyme.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:16:55 +1000 To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org From: Philip Warner Cc: Mark Hollomon In-Reply-To: <20000831125603.B26005@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@hub.org X-Server: VPOP3 V1.4.1 - Registered to: Wordbank Ltd Subject: [HACKERS] Dumping views as views? In a continuing effort to make pg_dump produce valid SQL where possible, I would like to move away from the 'Create Table'/'Create Rule' method of defining views, and actually dump the 'Create View' command. This seems quite do-able, but before I start I thought I would ask if there were any reasons people could think of for not doing this? The approach will be: - when getting table info, also call pg_get_viewdef (which returns 'not a view' for non-view relations). - When dumping rules, ignore all 'view rules'. - Dump the 'Create View' statement in oid order as per normal. It would be really nice if there was a simple way of detecting view rules that was analagous to relkind. Is there a reason why this has not been done? Has it been done? Maybe the code that checks the rule name to see if it is a view could be put in the backend? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Philip Warner | __---_____ Albatross Consulting Pty. Ltd. |----/ - \ (A.B.N. 75 008 659 498) | /(@) ______---_ Tel: (+61) 0500 83 82 81 | _________ \ Fax: (+61) 0500 83 82 82 | ___________ | Http://www.rhyme.com.au | / \| | --________-- PGP key available upon request, | / and from pgp5.ai.mit.edu:11371 |/ -- John O'Shea PGP fingerprint: 9A0A 47F7 A822 813E FFD4 B7B9 4194 C3F8 E610 F7C4 From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 14 05:47:56 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA17151; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 05:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (CDR27-115.accesscable.net [24.138.27.115]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05CA317E8B for ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 05:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8ED2jK43292; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:02:45 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:02:45 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Jules Bean Cc: fabrizio.ermini@sysdat.it, pgsql-general@postgresql.org, majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [GENERAL] List funnies ? In-Reply-To: <20000914133701.K16653@grommit.office.vi.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk there was a problem with database corruption in pgsql-general that we fixed last night ... if anyone else is interested in helping, I'm going to be working with the Mj2 guys on moving the backend from BerkeleyDB -> PostgreSQL ... if anyone is interested in helping out, let me know ... On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jules Bean wrote: > On Thu, Sep 14, 2000 at 09:01:50AM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > okay, this is most odd ... according to the list software, you are still > > only subscribed to the general list: > > Marc > > I can also confirm that I had no message on pgsql-general for about > two days until the thread 'List Funnies' started. Some -general has > been vanishing into a black hole. (Including one message I know a > friend of mine, 'Richard Poole ' sent recently). > > Jules > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 14 09:21:29 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA19140; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a2central.com (adsl-216-102-56-253.dsl.sktn01.pacbell.net [216.102.56.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 326CA17E8B for ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (justdave@localhost) by a2central.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25065; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:35:18 -0700 Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:35:17 -0700 (PDT) From: David Miller To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: [GENERAL] List funnies ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > there was a problem with database corruption in pgsql-general that we > fixed last night ... if anyone else is interested in helping, I'm going to > be working with the Mj2 guys on moving the backend from BerkeleyDB -> > PostgreSQL ... if anyone is interested in helping out, let me know ... Any chance of using DBI so it will work with a variety of databases and not just PostgreSQL? For example, we already have mySQL installed, and I'd rather use what we already have than have to install another database backend. Dave Miller - Technical Lead/Database Support A2Central.com - Your source for Apple II News and Info justdave@a2central.com From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 14 10:32:50 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA19719; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83B8E17E8B for ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA05241; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 12:43:06 -0500 To: David Miller Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: [GENERAL] List funnies ? References: From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 14 Sep 2000 12:43:06 -0500 In-Reply-To: David Miller's message of "Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:35:17 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "DM" == David Miller writes: DM> Any chance of using DBI so it will work with a variety of databases and DM> not just PostgreSQL? I'm not sure it would be reasonable to use anything other than DBI. However, if you believe that using DBI lets you make use of any database backend without code changes, then you are sadly mistaken. All databases have different capabilities, and DBI only abstracts as much as possible. Postgres is simply an expedient first choice because they have made use of our software. - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 14 10:47:46 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA19848; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a2central.com (adsl-216-102-56-253.dsl.sktn01.pacbell.net [216.102.56.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D08BD17E8B for ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (justdave@localhost) by a2central.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25313; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:01:14 -0700 Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:01:14 -0700 (PDT) From: David Miller To: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: [GENERAL] List funnies ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 14 Sep 2000, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > >>>>> "DM" == David Miller writes: > > DM> Any chance of using DBI so it will work with a variety of databases and > DM> not just PostgreSQL? > > I'm not sure it would be reasonable to use anything other than DBI. > However, if you believe that using DBI lets you make use of any database > backend without code changes, then you are sadly mistaken. All databases > have different capabilities, and DBI only abstracts as much as possible. Oh, I know that... but those code changes are easier to make that way. If DBI is already the plan, I'll say no more. :) I'll modify what I need to get it to work with mySQL once it's working with Postgres and contribute what I changed to make it work, if you'd like. Dave From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 14 12:02:56 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA20773; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (CDR27-115.accesscable.net [24.138.27.115]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A16A17E8B for ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8EJ9rd99959; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 16:09:53 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 16:09:52 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: David Miller Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: [GENERAL] List funnies ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'll definitely be using DBI, but I can pretty much guarantee you that the code that I write will only work on a relational database, sorry :( On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, David Miller wrote: > On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > there was a problem with database corruption in pgsql-general that we > > fixed last night ... if anyone else is interested in helping, I'm going to > > be working with the Mj2 guys on moving the backend from BerkeleyDB -> > > PostgreSQL ... if anyone is interested in helping out, let me know ... > > Any chance of using DBI so it will work with a variety of databases and > not just PostgreSQL? For example, we already have mySQL installed, and > I'd rather use what we already have than have to install another database > backend. > > Dave Miller - Technical Lead/Database Support > A2Central.com - Your source for Apple II News and Info > justdave@a2central.com > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From majordomo-workers-owner Mon Sep 18 17:33:11 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA25673; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix, from userid 1013) id D053717EB4; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com (imo-d08.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F4417E8B for ; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 06:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Franbeall@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.15.) id o.a.261f98a (3999) for ; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 10:02:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Franbeall@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 10:02:20 EDT Subject: Problem with list To: Majordomo-Workers@greatcircle.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 118 Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I run a majordomo mailing list from my website. When I attempt to send a message to the list with an attached file, it sends the file as part of the email in Ascii gibberish that can't be read. The same is true of pictures - the recipients cannot view them. Can you tell me what I need to do to be able to send an attached file to my list? I am using AOL 5.0 with Windows 98 Thanks, Fran Beall From majordomo-workers-owner Fri Sep 22 07:17:52 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA25802; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 07:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gate.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk (gate.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk [193.63.247.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 253A217ED4; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 07:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gate.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk; id PAA03164; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 15:17:37 +0100 Received: from mailrouter.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk(193.63.243.8) by gate.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk via smap (V4.2) id xma002968; Fri, 22 Sep 00 15:17:06 +0100 Received: from uxstaff.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk (uxstaff.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk [193.63.243.165]) by mailrouter.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29456; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 15:16:22 +0100 (BST) Received: by uxstaff.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 15:28:09 +0100 Message-ID: <219CCDDECA3AD31195CA00A024AD2550373356@uxstaff.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk> From: Mills CP To: "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Problems with MJ 1.94.5 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 15:28:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi all, Forgive the cross posting, but having only jus subscribed to these mailing lists, I am not sure which group would be the best to answer this question. I have just installed MJ 1.94.5 for the first time on Solaris 7 with Perl 5.005_63 and Sendmail 8.9.3 The installation worked well in fact I was impressed at how easy it was. However, I am currently trying to test the installation as per the INSTALL docs. I have "touched" a file called test in my lists directory and have issued the "lists" command in the body of a mail message. From this I get back an error: **** No valid commands found. **** Commands must be in message BODY, not in HEADER. On further investigation, I have found that the ParseMailHeader function seems to swallow up the entire contents of the mail message thus leaving no valid commands for the rest of the program to process. I have proved this by first writing out the entire contents of STDIN to a temporary file and then re-reading it for the ParseMailHeader and then re-reading it again for the rest of the main loop. Obviously this gives me a raft of errors because the mail header lines are not valid MJ commands but at the bottom, sure enough, the lists command is processed and I am told that the "test" list exists on the server. Is this a known bug and if so, is there a fix available or will I need to hack one together myself? Many thanks in advance Chris Mills Web/Network Developer Cranfield University Shrivenham Campus, United Kingdom. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.1 Int. for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOctqV0rgSYTumc6KEQL44QCgzIHFBXbnuKcWkvJ0tTqHBlZW7OYAoO7o P42r+48oCOBdtmuWW7a1v0Eu =P67J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From majordomo-workers-owner Fri Sep 22 09:04:18 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA26801; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 08:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gate.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk (gate.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk [193.63.247.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 655F117ED4; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 08:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gate.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk; id RAA24682; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:04:55 +0100 Received: from mailrouter.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk(193.63.243.8) by gate.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk via smap (V4.2) id xma024505; Fri, 22 Sep 00 17:04:25 +0100 Received: from uxstaff.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk (uxstaff.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk [193.63.243.165]) by mailrouter.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03206; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:03:40 +0100 (BST) Received: by uxstaff.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:15:28 +0100 Message-ID: <219CCDDECA3AD31195CA00A024AD255037335C@uxstaff.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk> From: Mills CP To: "'Dave Wolfe'" , Mills CP Cc: "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" Subject: RE: Problems with MJ 1.94.5 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:15:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 No. I even tried sending it by telnetting to port 25 on the server. I get exactly the same. On Friday, September 22, 2000 5:03 PM, Dave Wolfe [SMTP:dwolfe@risc.sps.mot.com] wrote: > [ Mills CP writes: ] > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > [...] > > The installation worked well in fact I was impressed at how easy it > > was. However, I am currently trying to test the installation as per > > the INSTALL docs. I have "touched" a file called test in my lists > > directory and have issued the "lists" command in the body of a mail > > message. From this I get back an error: > > > > **** No valid commands found. > > **** Commands must be in message BODY, not in HEADER. > [...] > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.1 Int. for non-commercial use > > > > > > iQA/AwUBOctqV0rgSYTumc6KEQL44QCgzIHFBXbnuKcWkvJ0tTqHBlZW7OYAoO7o > > P42r+48oCOBdtmuWW7a1v0Eu > > =P67J > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Did you send the mail w/ all these PGP wrappings around it? Mj > accepts only plain text messages, no MIME, no PGP, no HTML, no > multipart/alternative, no vcard, just unencoded ASCII text. > > -- > Dave Wolfe -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.1 Int. for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOcuDfErgSYTumc6KEQLvIwCfbbGaKceiJyWO+vexvmEGpvrHpjIAoIOH DciCbuC415bSP3RuXrihfgvm =HxFe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 03:05:25 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id DAA00559; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 03:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gate.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk (gate.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk [193.63.247.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 31D0117E8B; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 03:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gate.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk; id LAA16143; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:16:00 +0100 Received: from mailrouter.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk(193.63.243.8) by gate.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk via smap (V4.2) id xma015841; Thu, 28 Sep 00 11:15:04 +0100 Received: from uxstaff.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk (uxstaff.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk [193.63.243.165]) by mailrouter.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25385; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:14:17 +0100 (BST) Received: by uxstaff.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:26:22 +0100 Message-ID: <219CCDDECA3AD31195CA00A024AD25503733D7@uxstaff.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk> From: Mills CP To: "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: The future of Majordomo Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:26:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Having only just started out trying to use majordomo, I probably don't share the same level of loyalty as some users on this list. However, I feel I need to question the future of majordomo. I myself have had problems getting majordomo to work, whether this was due to a conflict or a bug in either my OS or version of perl I do not know, but when mj stripped and processed the headers, the entire message was stripped as well meaning that no valid commands were found. I managed to fix this to a fasion by completely rewritting the message handling code to use the Mail::Internet modules available for Perl. I keep reading that version 2 is well on it's way, but refering to a book I have that was published I think in '94, it seems that Majordomo v2 was on it's way then too. A colleague told me about an open source program distributed under the GPL called mailman which is currently in version 2.0beta6 which offered all the functionality or majordomo plus more. I downloaded it with the idea of looking at it and installed it. I must say that it is IMHO far superior to mj. It includes automatic digesting and archiving and even provides a web based interface to the configuration and management functions and the archive which can be viewed in a number of different ways. I think I will now use mailman as my MLM. What I am trying to say, is that sure, mj seems like it is a good product, and given the wide spread use of it, I have no doubt that it is (when you can get it working), but unless it develops somewhat faster than it appears to be at the moment, then other products, e.g. mailman are clearly going to take the lead. So come on guys, get on with it. Make majordomo a product I, as a MLM manager cannot afford to be without. P.S. Check out http://www.list.org/ for more information on mailman. From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 06:33:06 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA04248; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castro.queernet.org (castro.queernet.org [209.157.101.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9242517E8B; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by castro.queernet.org (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e8SDnvh10437 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:49:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Mills CP Cc: "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo In-Reply-To: <219CCDDECA3AD31195CA00A024AD25503733D7@uxstaff.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Mills CP wrote: > It includes automatic digesting and archiving and even provides a web > based interface to the configuration and management functions and the > archive which can be viewed in a number of different ways. What it does NOT include, however, is an email-based full management interface. If your list managers are satsfied doing all of their work from browsers, fine; many of mine either cannot use a browser from work, or prefer not to. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114 "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 07:34:03 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA04869; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (CDR20-57.accesscable.net [24.138.20.57]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5195517E8B; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8SEfLG51923; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:41:21 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:41:21 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Mills CP Cc: "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo In-Reply-To: <219CCDDECA3AD31195CA00A024AD25503733D7@uxstaff.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Note that Mj2 is more then just 'well on its way' ... I've been using it productive for >6 months now and love it ... Jason et al haven't put out any formal releases only because there is soooooo much they are wanting to do that they are, I swear, trying to do it all and won't release until then :) If you want a copy of Mj2, go to http://www.hub.org/pub/Majordomo2, where nightly snapshots are being genrated ... the feature set makes Majordomo v1 look pale in comparison ... On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Mills CP wrote: > Having only just started out trying to use majordomo, I probably don't share > the same level of loyalty as some users on this list. However, I feel I need > to question the future of majordomo. I myself have had problems getting > majordomo to work, whether this was due to a conflict or a bug in either my > OS or version of perl I do not know, but when mj stripped and processed the > headers, the entire message was stripped as well meaning that no valid > commands were found. > > I managed to fix this to a fasion by completely rewritting the message > handling code to use the Mail::Internet modules available for Perl. > > I keep reading that version 2 is well on it's way, but refering to a book I > have that was published I think in '94, it seems that Majordomo v2 was on > it's way then too. > > A colleague told me about an open source program distributed under the GPL > called mailman which is currently in version 2.0beta6 which offered all the > functionality or majordomo plus more. I downloaded it with the idea of > looking at it and installed it. I must say that it is IMHO far superior to > mj. It includes automatic digesting and archiving and even provides a web > based interface to the configuration and management functions and the > archive which can be viewed in a number of different ways. I think I will > now use mailman as my MLM. > > What I am trying to say, is that sure, mj seems like it is a good product, > and given the wide spread use of it, I have no doubt that it is (when you > can get it working), but unless it develops somewhat faster than it appears > to be at the moment, then other products, e.g. mailman are clearly going to > take the lead. > > So come on guys, get on with it. Make majordomo a product I, as a MLM > manager cannot afford to be without. > > P.S. Check out http://www.list.org/ for more information on mailman. > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 07:48:27 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA05080; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castro.queernet.org (castro.queernet.org [209.157.101.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3272517E8B; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by castro.queernet.org (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e8SF2en11795 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:02:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: Mills CP , "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > If you want a copy of Mj2, go to http://www.hub.org/pub/Majordomo2, where > nightly snapshots are being genrated ... the feature set makes Majordomo > v1 look pale in comparison ... Has anyone done anything on web access yet? Or integrated archive search? -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114 "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 08:34:37 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA05554; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8A3F17E8B; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA22179; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:41:47 -0500 To: Mills CP Cc: "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo References: <219CCDDECA3AD31195CA00A024AD25503733D7@uxstaff.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk> From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 28 Sep 2000 10:41:47 -0500 In-Reply-To: Mills CP's message of "Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:26:22 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "MC" == Mills CP writes: MC> I keep reading that version 2 is well on it's way, but refering to a MC> book I have that was published I think in '94, it seems that Majordomo MC> v2 was on it's way then too. I didn't start writing Majordomo2 until late '97, and even then it was just tinkering. Of course, today Majordomo2 is being used by real people on real lists. MC> So come on guys, get on with it. Make majordomo a product I, as a MLM MC> manager cannot afford to be without. Well, those of us that spend essentially the entirety of our free time developing said software, only have this to ask: help us. - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 09:05:08 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA06028; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945D917E8B; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA22332; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:17:25 -0500 To: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Cc: "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo References: From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 28 Sep 2000 11:17:25 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Roger B.A. Klorese"'s message of "Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:02:39 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "RBAK" == Roger B A Klorese writes: RBAK> Has anyone done anything on web access yet? There are user and administrator web interfaces. I don't use them but I do know they aren't very pretty. Perhaps someone with some experience in the area of web design can give us some usability tips. RBAK> Or integrated archive search? Not really. This hasn't been a showstopper for us since there are other web-based presentation and search packages that work fine. Eventually we'll want to look into integrate something so that the search functionality is exposed to all interfaces instead of just the web. (But writing a good, fast search engine isn't exactly trivial, so pointers on something that would interface well would be welcomed.) - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 09:20:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA06280; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ahchanh.trimm.nl (ahchanh.trimm.nl [195.86.74.173]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83B0717E8B; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from willemj ([192.168.0.211]) by ahchanh.trimm.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA73747; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:28:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from W.J.Zwart@TriMM.nl) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000928183002.017b4ae8@mail.trimm.nl> X-Sender: willemj@mail.trimm.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:30:02 +0200 To: "Roger B.A. Klorese" , The Hermit Hacker From: Willem Jaap Zwart Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo Cc: Mills CP , "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Webmin (http://www.webmin.com/webmin/) has a good majordomo front-end kind regards Willem Jaap At 08:02 AM 9/28/00 -0700, Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: >On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >> If you want a copy of Mj2, go to http://www.hub.org/pub/Majordomo2, where >> nightly snapshots are being genrated ... the feature set makes Majordomo >> v1 look pale in comparison ... > >Has anyone done anything on web access yet? Or integrated archive search? >-- >ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG >PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114 >"There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick > > > > Willem Jaap Zwart tel. 053-480 0 475 W.J.Zwart@TriMM.nl Visit us at http://www.TriMM.nl TriMM Multimedia BV - POBox 1208 7500 BE Enschede - the Netherlands Oldenzaalsestraat 143 - tel (+)31-53-4800480 - fax (+)31-53-4353027 From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 09:34:58 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA06419; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castro.queernet.org (castro.queernet.org [209.157.101.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EEC117E8B; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by castro.queernet.org (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e8SGknu13979 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:46:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Willem Jaap Zwart Cc: The Hermit Hacker , Mills CP , "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000928183002.017b4ae8@mail.trimm.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Willem Jaap Zwart wrote: > Webmin (http://www.webmin.com/webmin/) has a good majordomo front-end The issue is Mj2, not Mj1. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114 "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 10:19:58 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA06857; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garth.idyllmtn.com (unknown [198.173.164.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67F517EC1; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildfire (wildfire.idyllmtn.com [198.173.164.115]) by garth.idyllmtn.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA06949; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000928095928.00b3fa10@garth.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn-mli@garth.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:00:46 -0700 To: Mills CP From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo Cc: "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" In-Reply-To: <219CCDDECA3AD31195CA00A024AD25503733D7@uxstaff.rmcs.cranfi eld.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:26 AM 9/28/2000 , Mills CP wrote: >What I am trying to say, is that sure, mj seems like it is a good product, >and given the wide spread use of it, I have no doubt that it is (when you >can get it working), but unless it develops somewhat faster than it appears >to be at the moment, then other products, e.g. mailman are clearly going to >take the lead. You're going to help with this, right? I mean, you do understand how free software projects like Majordomo work, right? >So come on guys, get on with it. Make majordomo a product I, as a MLM >manager cannot afford to be without. Yeah, you guys, what the heck are we paying you for, anyway, if you're not delivering on this product timely enough? Oh, wait... we _aren't_ paying you, are we? Well, so what! We still want it anyway. -- __ __ _ _ _ Mailing List Services | \/ | | (_)___| |_ ___ for the Internet Community | |\/| | | | / __| __/ __| http://www.mlists.com/ | | | | |___| \__ \ |_\__ \ |_| |_|_____|_|___/\__|___/ kynn@mlists.com From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 10:34:43 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA07089; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castro.queernet.org (castro.queernet.org [209.157.101.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25B9517E8B; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:27:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by castro.queernet.org (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e8SHmo715198 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:48:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Kynn Bartlett Cc: Mills CP , "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000928095928.00b3fa10@garth.idyllmtn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Kynn Bartlett wrote: > You're going to help with this, right? I mean, you do understand > how free software projects like Majordomo work, right? You do understand that not all users of free software have the talents or abilities to contribute to it, right? In fact, for pervasive adoption, one must assume that less than 1% of the users will ever touch a line of code or documentation. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114 "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 10:49:28 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA07271; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sinnfree.sinnfree.org (sinnfree.sinnfree.org [209.207.48.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79D3117E8B for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (cjrenaud@localhost) by sinnfree.sinnfree.org (8.9.0/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA32448; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 13:13:09 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 13:13:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Chuck Renaud To: Jason L Tibbitts III Cc: "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Two questions: * Is there some kind of punchlist out there that shows what still needs to be done before a v1.00 can be released? * Is there a cheatsheet for new developers who want to contribute? Names of coordinators, who's working on what, etc.? --Chuck From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 11:19:43 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA07761; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9435317E8B for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA22931; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 13:38:10 -0500 To: Chuck Renaud Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo References: From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 28 Sep 2000 13:38:09 -0500 In-Reply-To: Chuck Renaud's message of "Thu, 28 Sep 2000 13:13:09 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "CR" == Chuck Renaud writes: CR> Is there some kind of punchlist out there that shows what still needs CR> to be done before a v1.00 can be released? We don't have a formal version of such a list. We are getting close to the point where we need one, and I'll probably start working on one once I get through with my current project. Keep in mind that with only two main code contributors and a third person working on documentation, there's not been much need for the kind of organization you're looking for. CR> * Is there a cheatsheet for new developers who want to contribute? mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu is the development list. If you want to help, feel free to just say so and if you don't know where to start, one of us will be happy to point you in a good direction. - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 11:34:29 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA07733; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [205.147.43.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D266217E8B; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org ([158.252.210.58]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA01865; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20000928084138.00c5fd40@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:46:15 -0700 To: Mills CP From: SRE Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo Cc: "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" In-Reply-To: References: <219CCDDECA3AD31195CA00A024AD25503733D7@uxstaff.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 06:49 AM 9/28/00, Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: >What it does NOT include, however, is an email-based full management >interface. If your list managers are satsfied doing all of their work >from browsers, fine; many of mine either cannot use a browser from work, >or prefer not to. Or, in my case, the web server and the mail server are separated by a firewall and I don't have the option of using a web interface! At 03:26 AM 9/28/00, Mills CP wrote: >So come on guys, get on with it. Make majordomo a product I, as a MLM >manager cannot afford to be without. It's volunteer labor. Please volunteer some and you'll move us ALL closer to the product we ALL want! (until then, don't presume you can coerce unpaid people into doing it for you) I've been running a couple dozen lists on Mj2 for a couple of years. Sure, it's not commercial quality code... but I've see a huge jump in development activity lately. If you want to find out about Mj2, sign up on mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu or visit http://www.hpc.uh.edu/majordomo/ SRE mailto:eckert@climber.org | http://www.climber.org/eckert/ Info on peak climbing email lists mailto:info@climber.org Amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic. From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 11:49:52 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA08005; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FE8717E8B; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA23016; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:00:55 -0500 To: Kynn Bartlett Cc: "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo References: <4.2.0.58.20000928095928.00b3fa10@garth.idyllmtn.com> From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 28 Sep 2000 14:00:55 -0500 In-Reply-To: Kynn Bartlett's message of "Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:00:46 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "KB" == Kynn Bartlett writes: KB> Yeah, you guys, what the heck are we paying you for, anyway, if you're KB> not delivering on this product timely enough? Well, he does have a valid point. He needs an MLM. He likes Majordomo, or at least he likes something about Majordomo. But some other product does something he needs done while Majordomo doesn't. An appeal to pride can be pretty influential. In this case, though, we just can't do much more than we're already doing. Especially me, who actually has very little time to contribute these days. Michael is tons more productive than I am right now, and he's also using the software in a production environment. - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 12:05:50 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA08188; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garth.idyllmtn.com (unknown [198.173.164.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD76617EAE; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildfire (wildfire.idyllmtn.com [198.173.164.115]) by garth.idyllmtn.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA10862; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000928114431.00b19e20@garth.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn-mli@garth.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:45:26 -0700 To: "Roger B.A. Klorese" From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo Cc: Mills CP , "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.20000928095928.00b3fa10@garth.idyllmtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:48 AM 9/28/2000 , Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: >On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Kynn Bartlett wrote: > > You're going to help with this, right? I mean, you do understand > > how free software projects like Majordomo work, right? >You do understand that not all users of free software have the talents or >abilities to contribute to it, right? In fact, for pervasive adoption, >one must assume that less than 1% of the users will ever touch a line of >code or documentation. Of course I understand this. I also believe that people who don't contribute (which can include more than just writing code) shouldn't complain and bitch. I don't contribute to Majordomo 2 -- but I also don't bitch about it. --Kynn -- __ __ _ _ _ Mailing List Services | \/ | | (_)___| |_ ___ for the Internet Community | |\/| | | | / __| __/ __| http://www.mlists.com/ | | | | |___| \__ \ |_\__ \ |_| |_|_____|_|___/\__|___/ kynn@mlists.com From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 12:34:37 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA08590; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castro.queernet.org (castro.queernet.org [209.157.101.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B423F17E8B; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by castro.queernet.org (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e8SJfHK17646 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:41:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Kynn Bartlett Cc: Mills CP , "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000928114431.00b19e20@garth.idyllmtn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Kynn Bartlett wrote: > Of course I understand this. I also believe that people who don't > contribute (which can include more than just writing code) shouldn't > complain and bitch. Yes, but what's considered complaining or bitching? At the risk of getting on one of my pet themes, perhaps the chief difficulty with Open Source software -- and believe me, I am a very big fan of the process and its benefits -- is that (understandably) developers tend to work on what meets their own needs, hoping that if other needs are identified, others will come along and address them. It's especially bad in the domain of user interface to core functionality, whether it's expressed as configuration language, GUI, or documentation; if you use Emacs and command-line interfaces, and understand regular expressions, the likelihood you'll spend the cycles to design a newbie-friendly interface when you could use them to code a feature you think is killer for your purposes is, well, nearly nil. Unfortunately, the people who most benefit from simplification and graphical interface are the ones least prepared to write code. But their inputs should hardly be reduced to the category of bitching and whining; their needs are the ones that will make the difference between guru-only deployment and pervasive adoption. And even if money is not a direct motivator, the factors of pride, fame, and future compensation ("Let's hire the guy who wrote Majordomo 2!") play into it. My requirements for an MLM are probably very different from Jason's -- at the highest level, I need a package that does what eGroups does, plus allows administration by mail. Going through the discussion of what that means EARLY in the process, getting input as it goes on even from us non-programmers, and listening to us in the trade-offs of usability vs. functionality vs. availability -- these are not whining. And many packages would do a lot better by a requirements-gathering process that admitted non-developers, early and often, without considering them whiners. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114 "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 13:04:57 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA08801; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rina.torah.org (rina.torah.org [208.229.147.50]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675F317E8B for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (brozen@localhost) by rina.torah.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id PAA26765; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:59:39 -0400 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:59:39 +0200 (IST) From: Brock Rozen To: Jason L Tibbitts III Cc: Chuck Renaud , majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Backup: Disabled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 28 Sep 2000 at 13:38, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote about "Re: The future...": > CR> Is there some kind of punchlist out there that shows what still needs > CR> to be done before a v1.00 can be released? > > We don't have a formal version of such a list. We are getting close to the > point where we need one, and I'll probably start working on one once I get > through with my current project. If we have such a list and we stuck to it (even loosely) - then there's nothing to talk about that a first release, even if it doesn't have all the features you want in it, would bring in lots of interest. It might even bring in more programmers because it shows Mj2 is going somewhere. Naturally, the updates and the following versions are for more features. But I think getting the first version out the door is fairly essential. -- Brock Rozen brozen@torah.org From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 15:19:40 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA10938; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epithumia.math.uh.edu (epithumia.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB6B17E8B for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by epithumia.math.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA23560; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:27:10 -0500 To: Brock Rozen Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, mj2-dev@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo References: From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 28 Sep 2000 17:27:10 -0500 In-Reply-To: Brock Rozen's message of "Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:59:39 +0200 (IST)" Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "BR" == Brock Rozen writes: BR> If we have such a list and we stuck to it (even loosely) - then there's BR> nothing to talk about that a first release, We did have a list, it's just that we have only one remaining item on it that has yet to be done, and I'm almost finished with that. What remains is to go from items like "add user web interface" to "make user web interface pretty" and "add operation X to web interface". Some of this functionality is so new that we haven't determined what needs to change yet. - J< From majordomo-workers-owner Thu Sep 28 15:49:35 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA11409; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castro.queernet.org (castro.queernet.org [209.157.101.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D956E17E8B; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by castro.queernet.org (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e8SN6Wx22066 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:06:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: Kynn Bartlett , Mills CP , "'majordomo-users@greatcircle.com'" , "'majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Re: The future of Majordomo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: majordomo-workers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > And, to your comment below ... if 99% of the users were to run and report > bugs on it, though, the other 1% would have a better idea of what > should/needs to be done or fixed :) I'm talking about things that go deeper than, and should be addresse